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Automakers Try To Keep Repair Codes Secret
An anonymous reader writes "Can't get the trouble codes out of your car's computer? Congress wants to help. I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?" This debate has been going on for several years.
Rachel Seymour, a college student from Portland, Oregon, has had her 2002 Kia Spectra serviced 12 times for a Check Engine light problem. Each time, she's forced to take it to a Kia dealership, where a technician hooks her car up to a computer, runs a battery of tests and charges her $120 to diagnose and repair the same problem: a loose gas cap.
Well, no offense to Ms. Seymour, but she's one dumbass motherfucker. Who the fuck in their right mind pays $120 twelve times ($1440 in total) to be told the same fucking thing? After the first time they told me it was a loose gas cap and I knew that I was tightening it down as best as it could be done I would have ignored (or covered/disabled) the light (which she apparently did after her twelvth visit).
I purchased my second new Saturn SL-series in 8/2002. I just had to take it in for a slipping clutch (at 29,900 which is unheard of as far as I am concerned). They offered me a rental car for free, service that would be finished the next day (probably because they were paying for the rental), and it was all under warranty. Now, like I said, it is unlikely that user error caused a slipping clutch at 30k but it is possible. No questions asked. Seems like they weren't trying to place the blame on the user here and just fixed the damn thing. I wonder if they didn't cover the first time or two and then told her to fuck off and started charging her for wasting their time?
I suggest that Ms. Seymour smartens the fuck up about her car company choices or her insistence on bringing the god damn car back to people who are obviously fucking with her...
I don't see how giving these fucking codes to the smalltime mechanics is going to help one fucking bit for a problem of utter stupidity. Ms. Seymour is going to see cause $$$'s in any automechanic's eyes. In fact, I would be more apt to trust a dealership's service department than some independent... YMMV.
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox
Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99 for a new one. Anyone else spotting the difference here? They arent helping YOU, they are helping the independant garages to keep your car in good shape and help prevent a fatality or two.
Congress allowing reverse engineering of repair codes will allow third party diagnostics systems available at prices the independant can truely afford to pay. This makes them better at maintaining vehicles.
It's not that other people COULDN'T fight you. It's just that Microsoft makes the greater effort to go ahead and actively piss you off.
:-/
Woot woot...
Like on Pimp My Ride?
"Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?"
Because the DMCA protects copyrighted information that is protected by some sort of security system (although the system is often lame). These auto codes are not protected by any security, besides obscurity.
The Technonaut
Most common use for modchips: pirating games (illegal)
Most common use for car codes: fixing your car (legal - but most likely won't be possible with future cars)
The similarity is that game makers make less money if you pirate a game (instead of buying it). Car dealers/manufacturers make less money if you fix your own car (and down pay for their overpriced service and "genuine rippof parts").
Casual Games/Downloads
First off, when purchasing a "cheap" car, you get what you pay for. Most of the commercials you see on TV for Kia, Hyundai's and offer the 10-year warranty are crap for this exact reason. The car, a 2002 model is still covered under the manufactuers warranty, however, there's some stipulations. In short, it doesn't cover "user error". Here's a college student who has had the car serviced 12 times for the same problem, and each time told the same thing. Depending on where she lives, she may need to check into her state's lemon law.
I help admin a Mazda 6 enthusiast site and have never heard of anything like this before regarding warranty problems. Any check engine light, whether the drivers fault or not is taken care of without a charge. Paying a $120 fee each time it gets services is ridiculous! Again, just another use to show you the hooks and gimmicks of buying "cheaper" cars thinking that a 10-year warranty will keep you safe from any problems. Our group was lucky. With the help of Mazda service mangers around the US, we were able to get a complete list of trouble codes posted. As was stated in the article the AutoXRay is a wonderful tool to help. It is fairly pricey, but if you have no other way of determining the problem, this would really help and saves on having the repair shop diagnose the problem for you. Instead alll it takes is this scanner to read the codes, determine the problem, and have them fix it. From the article...
"Bryan Hanks, who has taken his 2002 Toyota Prius to his local Houston dealership four times since a single sensor malfunctioned and the Check Engine signal prevented him from using the car's electronic display, said automakers should incorporate USB ports in dashboards to allow consumers to download error messages to a laptop."
Any legitimate scanner will allow you to also download a freeze frame and trouble codes to your laptop or monitor real-time data that may not be available to you through dashboard guages.
IMHO, if after 12 times, I think common sense has to play a big part in the determination process of what's going on. With the advent of cars having tons of microprocessors and computers on-board to control everything from real-time air/fuel ratios to your cabin temperature settings it's no wonder why CEL codes will light up for inane reasons, the gas cap one being the most common. When the reason shows up on the diagnostic computer it most likely shows a fuel leak (depending on car manufactuer). Out of perspective, it seems like a pretty serious problem. However, once all of the fuel lines have been pressure checked and show no leaks, the only problem could be with a loose gas cap. This can go 2 ways.. either she is taking it to the dumbest dealership service department or she is a complete twit herself.
Hmmm.
Diagnostic codes should all be released; why give automakers a monopoly on repair.
Damn you check engine light!
This is totally insecure, but very convenient.
The car companies make money doing service on your car (unless its under full warrenty), or commisioning other companies to fix your car. Its about lost profits.
Me? If I see a check engine light in my car, I want to know what it is before I shell out $150 to get the "problem", if there is one, repaired.
I was just about to post the exact same thing.
It doesn't really hurt anyone that you're not allowed to tamper with your X-box, but a tonne worth of steel had better be working properly, and if the automakers can monopolize the maintenance of their cars, the price for that will soar, and if that happens, fewer people will maintain their cars properly. Duh.
They are creating competition... If more service shops have these "codes" they are able to offer a better price than the dealership. This gives the consumer the choice of taking it there, having to pay less but also have less-experience machanics (for that particular model perhaps) work, or pay a slightly higher price and have the dealership do it. It creates a choice for the consumer rather than telling them they MUST go to the dealership to get it fixed.
Hmmm.
Excuse me a second. But aren't the diagnostic codes already available if you shell out the money for the aftermarket code readers? And don't just about all of the better auto fixit shops have the code readers? Heck even JCWhitney catalog carries code readers for all but the newest models. So how exactly is congress making the car companies release these codes something that is "new" and something worth wasting my taxpayer money for?
Sig temporarily out of service.
So in a sense people are already buying cars with their hoods welded shut.
Sure openness has its place, but do we really want just ANYONE to be able to fix our cars ?
It's easy. How many of them do you think own a car and use it frequently? Okay, now how many of them do you think own an XBox and use it frequently? It's something they're just not familiar with.
They KNOW it's a good thing for people to be able to repair their own cars. How many do you think know what an XBox is, why people would want to mod it, etc? If they have no idea why someone would want to do something, they can't really make an informed decision on it.
Go ahead and write them, comparing the two, inform them a bit and maybe you'll see a difference in their attitudes when they're more informed.
This does provide an opportunity to educate Congress by showing them that the needs of both professions with respect the DMCA (and other horrors) are basically very similar at heart.
The real difference is that you dont have to reverse engineer your car to get the codes. They are freely given to you via existing output ports in the engine compartment or under your dash. The only thing they are trying to do is make the output of these ports open information. They arent saying that it is ok to go in and reverse engineer your cars computer to hack in faster acceleration or higher horsepower (although on some cars that can be done).
Oh wait... it's about money... that's right.
The RIAA versus the people: the RIAA has the money.
The Car Makers versus the people: The Car Makers have the money.
It's not about principle, it's about money.
There is only one way to fix this: get GOVERNMENT out of the way. Politicians will ALWAYS be bought and sold, unless they lack the power to do anything in the first place. If they couldn't pass a law in the first place, nobody would pay them to pass a law (or ignore a law).
What can you do to reduce government power?
Join the Free State Project, and find out! We're reducing government because power corrupts and government power corrupts double standardly so.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
...Because cars have always been, and remain one of the last bastions of the DIY'er. Its expected that most people have at least some small ability to diagnose and repair thier own car. The car makers have been taking that ability away inch by inch the car-codes problem is just the most obvious outward evidense of the problem.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
This is a little bit off-topic, but one reason why young folks buy Kia's and Hyundais is because of the extra-long warranty period, 10 years, I think. A quote from the article helps me to realize that Kia's warranty is probably fraught with small-print and legalese that helps them to cover their butts with their decade-long warranty.
"Instead of explaining anything to me they just pull out a warranty sheet with a highlighted portion indicating that they don't cover Check Engine light problems."
They don't cover check engine light problems? I can see, on one hand, why they wouldn't do this (money-wise), but on the other, it's not very nice to offer someone what is evidentally perceived to be a blanket warranty for the whole car and then charge for small repairs. I think that Kia and other similar, low-cost automakers should be more forthcoming in their commercials about their warranties.
It's all part of the same racket.
Here in good 'ol New Joisey, any 'newer' car (I believe '96 or newer) gets a computer test instead of the rod-up-the-tailpipe test. If your check-engine light is on, you automatically fail the test -- they won't even plug into the computer.
If it's not on, they read the codes in your engine, and if everything is OK, you pass the smog test.
Now, do you smell a racket here or what?
State inspection: free. Inspection at a "PIF" (Private inspection facility): $75.
Isn't it in your mechanic's interest to conveniently have that irritating-yet-not-telling-you-anything check engine light go on, so you have to bring it back to be inspected for $75?
Grr... just another screw-job.
I know that many cars already come with OBD II compliant ports (http://www.obdii.com/) and there are interfaces out there to hook your laptop to the OBD port and check the engine management software. Indeed there are tools to remap the engine software that use the same OBD port (I've installed this on my BMW)
Given that this type of standardized interface exists, and that tools for "exploiting" it are readily available and fairly cheap, I don't see how it would be possible to keep this information (error codes and the like) secret.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
People just depend too much on their cars, and there's too much of a tradition of allowing people to have their cars fixed as they'd like them to be, to allow car manufacturers the right to restrict access. It's something people feel strongly about.
The days of the common man being able to modify and repair their own car seem to be coming to a close. Cars are made of too many different metals that are not as easily worked with as steel, and there are too many electronics and computers. But even so, manufacturers trying to put a strangle hold on repair shops to make them be registered and have the proper codes is just wrong.
Why shouldn't you be allowed to use your XBOX how you'd like, and Congres is trying to protect your right to use your car how you choose? Well, I'm not so sure you should be so restricted, maybe Congress should have said something earlier, but if you like the idea of being able to use whatever you buy, this is something to get behind.
The problem is that the greybeards in Congress remember when they could work on their own cars, before all the computerization and emission-control crap was added. So they sympathize with owners who "want to be able to fix their own cars, but the newfangled ones are too '1337."
This contrasts with computers and technology, because the members of Congress never knew how it worked, so of course there's no reason to open the hood, to extend the metaphor. "Computers? Well, them's crazy things, you better ask my 9 year old nephew... take it apart? Why, you'll probably break it anyway!"
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
It was before the lemon laws. The problem was that the car would just quit, right in the middle of driving down the interstate or wherever. After a few minutes you could restart it. After the third trip to the dealership failed to find the problem, I "revoked my acceptance" of the product, just like it was a bad hair drier I took back to Walmart. The dealer sputtered and argued for a while, but I got my money back and took it down the road and bought a different brand. It didn't take me 12 tries.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
I thought DMCA made it illegal.
The owls are not what they seem
Go buy one of the many, many aftermarket products that do exactly what is this. Interface with te cars serial port, and display in colorful graphics on your laptop or Palm, exactly what the particular code(s) means.
Anywhere in price from $80 to several thousand. AutoTap is probably the best midrange one, at $200-300.
Now...if you lack the skill to put a gas cap on correctly, these may not help you.
Autozone (yes, Autozone of Linux fame) will check your car's engine codes for free. Except in California. Seems that the nanny state of California made this practice illegal at the behest of auto dealer lobbyists.
... you just have to pay for it. One place you can get this sort of stuff, off the top of my head, is ALLDATA. There's many others, I'm sure.
The info is out there and many of the car companies do indeed offer it. They just don't much advertise it. They're too busy making cars to be selling information about them. Don't chalk this up to malice so fast, is what I'm saying. Mark it down as stupidity instead. It seems more likely.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
he makes teh love with them. yes.
and I will have to turn on the "Check Engine" light.
"Do what you damn well please Kit, but keep that David Hasselhoff 8-track a-playing, cause I need some good cruise tunes. Oh, and if you do feel the urge to turn on that light, remember when you asked why do we need a tire iron when I can fix the wheels myself? Well I'll show you!!!"
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
They're already FORCED to charge $500 for a copy
of their computer chip car keys (ouch) and the
$80 oil changes don't sell themselves...
This is coming directly out of the giant gimmick sales balloon budget.
Guess this will help the linux car computer..
guess this is good..in a way
http://toonarchive.com/lccfaq/index.php
It's called ODB-II. There's a standard diagnostics connector, probably under your dash, that a $100 code reader will interface with and give you error codes for most of the standard problems. I think they're talking about more advanced, manufacturer specific codes. If you're buying a car without checking into how easily and cheaply it is to get repaired or how reliable it is, then you better not plan on keeping it past the bumper to bumper warranty. If more people start buying older used cars so they can get service, the manufacturers will probably take notice. And if newer used car sales start to dive because of repair costs, that's going to kill their resale values, making trading up to a new vehicle harder, and their sales will be hurt. They can try all of this, but in the end, it's going to bite them in the rear end. IMHO, of course.
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
Apparently, to be a modern conservative you must generalize everything.
I'm of the opinion that people like Microsoft, the RIAA, and the MPAA are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to "secure" their IP rights by attempting to rewrite laws about fair use. Of course, there are people that will circumvent copy-protection efforts for theft; but aren't there enough honest people out there that could actually benefit from this technology? I've been wondering lately, how many honest people out there are making negative decisions about purchasing these types of things because of the very "anti-consumer" attitude that these companies are taking? For example:
- By attempting to make the modding of XBoxes illegal (I'm not even sure if modding them is illegal, but the DMCA says that reverse-engineering the copy protection is), Microsoft is locking their machine into a single-purpose device, when it is capable of SO much more. Aren't there enough people that aren't interested in games at all, that that would purchase an XBox over a PS2 because it was moddable and came with a hard drive? That way they could use it as a PC that they can connect to their TV without adding any hardware (except the mod chip of course)? Heck, if there weren't any issues regarding modding them at all, I'd be recommending that my company purchase them for desktop PCs! If Microsoft was to sell add-on hardware for them, couldn't they re-coup the loss that they take on the hardware cost and expect to make up with game sales and licenses?
- By making the copying (backup) of DVDs illegal (321 studios isn't allowed to sell the "full version of "DVDXCopy" anymore), isn't the MPAA saying that they are aware that the lifetime of a DVD isn't infinite, and that as a consumer, I'm being forced to buy the same DVD again sometime in the future when my original fails? Aren't there enough people out there that would be MORE willing to purchase DVDs if they could be assured that it was okay to back them up? I wouldn't buy a hard drive and put important data on it unless I had some way of backing it up...
- Same goes for the RIAA and the "backing up" of CDs. I'm more willing to purchase music if I know that I'm purchasing it and the ability to play it ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. If that means being able to copy it 4 zillion times then so be it. I'm also one of those people who doesn't like to purchase whole albums since most of them are fluff, so the iTunes concept is the perfect solution for people like me. My message to the RIAA: "Don't try and squash it, badmouth it, or otherwise derail it - PROMOTE IT! It will have the positive effect of forcing artists to spend more time MAKING QUALITY songs to fill their albums with."
What do you all think?
I was in the park the other day wondering why frisbees get bigger and bigger the closer they get - and then it hit me.
If the light is on constantly, you can probably just take it to Autozone, they have a free check engine light service.
:).
I had a check engine light on, that had been on for months, but never worried about it, but when it came time for emmissions check they refused to pass my car because of the check engine light. So, after calling around and the running rate was $100 or so, I took it to Autozone they jumppered a connection under my dash, turned the ignition and my panel flashed a diagnostic code, and they put it into their computer. The problem: bad O2 sensor, so I open the hood, and there is a cable hanging under the O2 sensor not connected to anything, so I plug it into the sensor, turn the car on, no check engine light and I pass emissions.
I also asked the guy at Autozone if I could keep the tool used to jumpper the connection and he said sure so now I check my own check engine light problems
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
SLAP!!!!
Your right it's a dupe but, that's what you get at Slashdot for pointing out the editors' shotcomings.
Score: -1 Bitchslapped
I don't want to reconstruct my car, or even soup it up. I just want to know what is wrong with it when it is out of whack.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
no one is forcing people to buy new cars and gadgetized engines!
i find no problems working on my mopar 340ci and 440ci engines. they run and run and run and no 75,000 computer code is needed to diagnose and repair.
same goes with the cadillac 425 and 500ci engines in my fleetwoods.
i decided not to give the auto barons 30-75k of my money ever 3 years for their disposable plastic black boxes and its been 10 years now and a total of 15k in both car, engine, and maintenance costs.
if you are serious about doing your own maintenance avoid new cars like it were microsoft!
Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99
It probably has more to do with the number of Congressmen who own a car versus the number who own an XBox.
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
Go to Autozone. The nice man there has a code reader, and will read the code, for free, and tell you what it means. Of course he wants you to buy some parts to fix it, but you don't have to.
Alternatively, you can look it up here Input your car model and year, and the specific code.
You're assuming that Congressmen actually pay to have their car fixed.
Computers, on the other hand, are Magic Boxes. They don't know how a computer works, are possibly afraid to learn, and hate it that 14 year old boys know more about it than they do and can cause so much trouble with one. They see the results and power of these fine general problem-solving tools but don't know how to harness it for themselves which frightens them, so they think it's better to regulate it until they do (or so that they don't have to worry about it anymore).
I grant that this is a pretty broad generalization and there are certainly counter examples of my characterization of these men (for instance Al Gore or maybe Jay Inslee) but never underestimate the pride and ego of an old man. It's practically a force of nature.
I purchased my second new Saturn SL-series in 8/2002. I just had to take it in for a slipping clutch (at 29,900 which is unheard of as far as I am concerned). They offered me a rental car for free, service that would be finished the next day (probably because they were paying for the rental), and it was all under warranty. Now, like I said, it is unlikely that user error caused a slipping clutch at 30k but it is possible. No questions asked. Seems like they weren't trying to place the blame on the user here and just fixed the damn thing. I wonder if they didn't cover the first time or two and then told her to fuck off and started charging her for wasting their time?
You know, I've read numerous times and places that Saturns have really good service and support, but not being an auto nut, I had no idea whether it was just part of a big Saturn marketing effort.
May we never see th
most likely won't be possible with future cars
I think future cars will be fixable at home but you will need to know a lot more to fix it. Not only will you need to know mechanics but computers too.
Large things such as battery structures and power cell will have to be big units that need to be turned in and replace like car batteries now. And they will have safety features so some idiot doesn't kill him/her self.
But, in the end it should be fixable at home still.
Evolution or ID?
Scantool.net has a device they sell for ~$100 which allows you to connect your laptop to your car. You can read and clear codes. It's a more expensive version of Black Tape on Top of the Check Engine Light, but since my light keeps coming on, it allows me to make sure no other problems are being hidden by a faulty sensor throwing errors.
Plus - the software is open source and on Sourceforge.
If you don't want to buy your own reader, drive by an AutoZone and ask them to read it for you. Guy will come out to your car and plug the thing in and check the codes and even explain what it means (assuming he knows what it means, which I'm sure varies from person to person). It's a useful way to determine if you actually need service or if it's just complaining about the gas cap or low oil or something.
Disclaimer: I work for AutoZone and have for about 2 months now. However, I'm trying hard not to be a shill, sort of thing. Still, if you don't feel like dropping $100 on a reader, this is an alternative you'll want to look into.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I remember this debate a few months ago. Next, please?
-jls
Techno-pagan
The codes are available on the net if you know where to look. Often they are found on auto enthusiast websites. Websites like Focaljet.com
Not only that there is a great project for retrieving codes under linux. The project is called FreeDiag. It can be found at Sourceforge.net
Not only that, there are some great "open" cables you can build yourself. the BR interface is my fav. It happens to work very nicely with freediag.
Hope this helps people that are interested.
What could possibly go wrong?
"You have to believe that the same public school idiot who can't teach 4th graders how to read is qualified to teach those same kids about sex."
Ahh, the parent AC learned to read in the 4th grade. That explains everything.
When I lived in New Jersey, you paid the PIF $75 and then they told you what was wrong with the car right before giving you the certificate. Some PIF sites just handed out certificates and didn't seem to do any testing at all.
In America, cars are your right as a citizen. The car and American citizens have always gone hand in hand, well at least since 1922. If automakers started filing DMCA suits against third party product makers several bad things would happen.
First, why would companies to make aftermarket parts continue when one of their products is being attacked by the automaker that the parts are produced for. The large car manufacturers have actually been trying to encourage aftermarket modifications of their cars since market studies indicate that the slide in their market share in America is the lack of "tuner" interest. More aftermarket parts allows the large auto manufacturers to appeal to this rather large audience.
Second, the auto industry is pretty heavily regulated. You think that they want to get into a hub-bub that's already a hot topic with digital rights and liberty organizations? It's my opionion that if they were to lay down some DMCA suits that Congress would take a closer look at the DMCA and ammend the hell out of it. Our problems with the DMCA don't mean diddly to Congress, however, if the shop where there car is worked on complains that Ford or GM are making it so equipment is unavailable, it would perk their interest.
-Runz
The same light turns on for the gas cap as for other problems. It's a single, as you would say, fucking light.
How will this help? Well by disclosing the codes I would have been able to diagnose similar problems in my car with a $10 device and without a trip to the dealer. She could have saved over a thousand dollars.
If the check engine light comes on and you ignore it you know full well that any problems you have will be blamed on that and no longer covered by the warantee.
Dumbass.
Obviously some people realize that what he said was completely true. I don't exactly find your comment insightful. If anything it's off-topic or trolling.
I suggest that you be modded down for acting Kindergartenish and complaining to the teacher about Billy's cursing.
From the post:
"I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?"
Don't you get it? Laws are not driven by the public interests these days. They are driven by the political forces that give the most money to their constituents. If the issue affects a lot of people's bottom lines, it gets fast-tracked through congress by the special interest groups. What does Joe Rich Boy care if his DVDs are encrypted or his Xbox can't be modded if he can watch movies on his DVD player or play games on his xbox?
Come on, wake up and smell the coffee. The same is true of the police if you think about it.
Ads? What ads?
Though this would not permanently solve the problem with a faulty sensor, I hear you can cause the check engine light to go out after it detects a loose gas cap by simply disconnecting the battery of the vehicle for 20 minutes or so and reconnecting it.
I heard this from a few car-oriented friends of mine after I had the same problem on my Toyota Tacoma and stupidly forked out $70 for them to hook it up to a machine and press the 'reset' button.
Sean
"'Yrch!' said Legolas, falling into his own tongue."
When you purchase a modern console system(especially the XBox which has a version of windows on it, you're purchasing a computer and software, you can likely modify the computer all you like(so long as you modifications don't alter the software or allow you to play pirated games), but not the software itself legally, because you bought the hardware outright but the software is licensed.
In the case of a car, not only are you historically "purchasing it outright" as is mentioned in the article, but for the purposes of these codes you are not attempting to alter the software(well it's really probably some form of ROM). All congress is asking for is that auto manufacturers give their customers the ability to look at the output of their car computer(which is not encrypted and thus not under the DMCA) and be able to determine this meaning. The output can be legally read by anyone, but the car companies work hard to prevent anyone from knowing what it means.
Here is a neat device.. It is cheap, and supposedly works on cars of 1996 and up! http://www.davisnet.com/drive/products/carchip.asp
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
And for the person who said it isn't possible, check out the garage door opener case or the printer cartidge case. Yes, it is possible. Just claim the microcode on the car's computer is protected by the secret protocol... *bam* you've legally locked out your competition.
It's a little thing called precedent.
Congress going out of its way to say "You own your car, you have a right to take it apart" begins a legal precedent in being able to take stuff you own apart. It's a baby step, but it's one step closer to Congress saying, "dude, you own it, you can take it apart"
:wq
Lots of other uses for modchips. Pirating games is merely the "illegal" use of them used to try to ban them. That's a different issue entirely anyways.
The DMCA could be used against "pirating" the "private code messages". Unlike the RIAA, car makers aren't stupid enough to blanket sue their own customers, as the first car maker to do so would probably be the first one to go out of business the next day. That said however, having Congress impose some standard interface might not be so bad, as after all this could just be merely be a quick check for Joe user that all is right with his car.
For the silly anecdote: Take tire pressures for example, add a digital bit and make it a crime under the DMCA to check it without an article only available to dealers or for $500, you sort of get this ludicrous point I hope. If you believe this differs from any other DMCA issue, you are removing a revenue source from the automaker by allowing people to circumvent the digital protection (however weak) installed on the tire pressure system to utilize other tools to read tire pressure. This removes the automakers ability to generate revenue from their "copyrighted" work.
In reality, this shows how utterly stupid DMCA is. IMNSHO, copyright was protected already by existing laws, and all that was necessary was for those laws to be enforced. (actually, I believe copyright laws have been twisted into something that has the founding fathers rolling in their graves, but that's another story.)
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
"Automakers should be spending their money on two things: -staying alive -not ruining the earth..."
what the hell does that mean? Seriously, right now it looks like the piss-poorest thing I've ever read.
It is your god-given right:
In your own home (or garage etc) you have a bloody un-revokable right to do what you like with your property as long as its not dangerous in general (ie a nuclear reactor) or used as something dangerous (i.e screwing with your cars breaks, unless you get someone to give it an MOT before you drive outside or building a nuclear weapon) and in some cases as long as you're not producing certain things - chemicals that require a license, drugs etc etc. Other than that you are free to do what ever you like from smashing your xbox with a hammer or fiddling with the internals (yes DRM too). There is absolutely no way that this right can be taken away from you, this is what i call a 'fuck you' right, because if a politician even suggests it, all you need to say is 'fuck you'. Even though this right has been violated by the DMCA it is still your right to break that aspect of the law because it is of-course 'fuck you totally' law. Although it should be taken out ASAP. How the fuck do these people even dare suggest we dont have this right?? how can they keep a straight face? Sure companies can try and implement DRM etc, but you can try and break it, if its your property its your right.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
If you reset the computer (typically by pulling a fuse for 30 seconds or so), can you then pass the emmissions inspection?
Apparently the car manufacturer's fear is that some of their custom parts will be reverse-engineered. I'm not quite sure how knowing whether the "check engine" light means a fuel-injection problem vs. a gas tank cap problem will allow anyone to reverse-engineer anything.
The real purpose of the bill is to ensure that a car owner can maintain their own car or take it to their favorite mechanic rather than the dealer (which often charges over 2x what the independent mechanic charges).
The woman in the article was definitely gullible. By the second visit, she should have demanded a second opinion - either a supervisor or a different dealership. Twelve times to the same dealer tells me she was flat-out stupid and so were the mechanics. By the third or fourth time, the mechanics should have been checking the cap to see if it was loose. If so, having her tighten it so she could see the difference between loose and tight, and they could see if she was doing it wrong or wasn't turning it enough. If it wasn't loose, something else was clearly wrong. In addition, they should have checked to be sure the threads weren't stripped or damaged, which could cause the cap to loosen on its own. The fact that they didn't look further than the easy answer twelve times in a row speaks very poorly for the service standard at that dealership. (I can say this from the perspective of technical support - just because I don't work for MS doesn't mean I won't teach a customer how to navigate in Explorer when that will result in his ability to use our software better. To blow him off by saying he needs to learn to use Windows and it isn't my problem doesn't solve anything. Making him pay each time to be told this would just result in a really upset customer who is unlikely to purchase future software/support from us.)
The entire purpose of independent mechanics or the car owner knowing those codes is to diagnose and handle a problem preventing the car owner from using their car for the purpose it was purchased for -- driving to and from locations. This doesn't compare very well with modding an Xbox (or reverse-engineering it) because neither of those is intended to maintain its usefulness for its original purpose. A better comparison would be trying to get your Xbox, PS2, or Gamecube serviced if it stops working correctly. How difficult (impossible) is it to get your Xbox serviced at the local electronics repair shop if the laser stops functioning or a button jams?
I was taking one day at a time, but then several days got together and ambushed me. (from a Rhymes with Orange comic)
Most new cars come with some sort of display in the dash, either for the CD/Tuner, or for a simple systems display.
If your gas cap is loose, why wouldn't they just have one of these displays print "Your Gas Cap is Loose". It can tell you when you have Low Windshield washer fluid, how is another message any more difficult.
Seems to me like they just want to force people to pay them more.
Good business? Yes.
Moral? No.
The American Way? Yes.
I HATE Capitalism.
I HATE Corporate America.
I'm going to go start my own Fight Club.
Between the Haves and Have nots. From 1986 to 1992 Corvettes could display error codes using the SES light and a jumper...From 1997 on, all Corvettes can give you a VERY COMPLETE error code with a couple of keypresses on the trip computer buttons.
(Turn on key but don't start car. Press 'reset' untill all warnings are cleared, press and hold 'option' while pressing 'fuel' four times. The system will then list through all major control sections for any current or recent past error codes.)
My PT cruiser has a similar process (press and hold the trip button while inserting the key and turning to run.)
Why is this such a big deal? _I'd_ like to know when my O2 sensor is kaput and not trust the guy behind the counder saying my muffler bearings need rotating.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Hi folks. I used to work at Sun Electric, before Snap-On bought them out. I helped build the engine testers - I worked on all the PC-based units, under Radski (sp) and Bahnick, then Schaeffer.
Part of what I did was the interface to the car's computer, to be able to read these codes. We ***ALWAYS*** had a hella hard time getting this info from the auto makers. They even had an explanation for this - they kept it a secret, to keep people from damaging their cars while under warrantee.
Makes sense to me. The car dies, people get hurt or killed, and the blame goes to the car manufacturers first. They MUST be very careful of this, not only to protect the general public, but to protect their shareholders.
We did get the codes, eventually, though it usually took years. By then, the warrantees had expired anyways, and the cars were showing up at third-party repair shops, the kind that often bought our equipment. I guess the "system" worked, though it really ticks off backyard mechanics everywhere.
Lemon curry?
This is common on most vehicles. Just google your manufactor and you will find out the combo for your gas guzzler.
Secondly, the ten year warranty is only power train. Which means if you blow a motor, or rip the trannie out, you are covered with somewhere around a $250 deductable(sp?). Otherwise, that warranty isn't worth the ink it's printed with.
http://jayceecorder.blogspot.com
Hasn't technology evolved to a point where we don't need to extract and look up arcane codes to determine what is wrong with our hardware (computers or cars)? I understand that there was a time when storing the text for error codes used up precious RAM/ROM, but come on!
I mean, how hard would it be to fit a car with an LED/LCD readout that says "Your gas cap is loose or missing." It doesn't have to be a fancy voice like in luxury cars. Just a little readout on or under the dash that tells you exactly what is wrong (as far as the car's sensors can tell, anyway). Maybe a nice message that tells you, "Your transmission has exploded. Seek professional help."
Geez.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Okay, probably a 1 in a billion shot of happening but..
Hypothetical situation here:
Say you own a 2003 Yugo. Yugo goes out of business, or closes down all dealerships in your neck of the woods. Yugo never revealed their diagnostic codes outside the company. Your car breaks down with some weird diagnostic codde you can't decipher. What do you do?
Keep in mind, there's a LOT more to diagnosing and fixing a modern car then what you imply, "plug it in and get the magic code that tells you what needs to be fixed." You might get lucky some of the time, and a trouble code leads you to the right part. But often times you'll be lead astray, replacing stuff that doesn't need to be replaced.
This is why you should take your car to a professional automotive technician, not 'the cheapest guy around'.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
for any of the DTCs. Bet ya didn't know that, did ya smart guy?
BTW, in the auto-enthusiast world, they're called "stealerships" for a reason.....
On the Chevy all you have to do is fine the diagnostic block and short the two squares in the upper right of the block. A bent paper clip will do just fine. Then just turn the key to "On" don't start the car. The check engine light will start to flash. The first cose is a "12" which is letting you know to get ready for the real code(s) coming up. Each code will be flashed 3 times. When all of the codes are done you will get another series of "12s" letting you know the diagnosic is complete.
I don't have the codes anymore for the Chevy's but you should be able to Google them.
On the Dodge cars just turn the car to "On" (not turning it over) 3 times. Then leave it in the "On" position and get ready for the check engine light to start flashing codes.
See here for detailed instructions and the codes...http://www.allpar.com/fix/80s-codes.html
Never owned a Ford so I don't know how this is done but a quick Google should turn the instructions and codes up as well.
Ohana means family. Family means nobody gets left behind or forgotten.
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox.
It's simple. They understand cars enough to know what the danger is. They don't understand computers enough to see the same dangers there. (Your XBox example doesn't really highlight the problem, since it is just a game after all - a better example is things like voting machine code and proprietary device drivers.)
Really, that's all there is to it. It's simple familiarity. Screw with people's ability to fix their own cars and you impact a lot of people the congrescritters know personally - they grok what's going on because everyone's got cars, everyone's opened hood on them, and everyone either knows how to fix minor things on them or is just one relationship hop away from someone who does. Now, how many congressmen know the first thing about how computer software is made? How many of them realize just how artificial the line is between software design and software fixing? It's not nearly as clearly cut as the line between designing a car and fixing a car.
Secondly, a congresscritter would never accept that it's okay for someone to get free access to the blueprints from a car manufacturer for how to make the car, but they understand that people should have access to the diagnostic tools. What they don't understand is that that distinction doesn't exist in computer software. The "user-servicable" part of a software program is...the whole thing. And only a programmer can really understand how true that is.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Modding a car computer is like modding something else on a car. Just like anything else, if it screws up the car, it's your problem (just like dropping your minidisc player). However, if the modification in their eyes, in any way, affected the way the car was acting, rusulting in say an engine seisure, then of course they will not do anything about it, nor will they if you drop it usually...
Kia's have big problems with air getting into the gas tank. The gas cap has to be on just right or it will have that check engine light issue. Those cars blow.
Before I got my Golf, I had a Plymouth Neon. With that you could turn the key towards the driver (just electrial access) and leave it there for a few seconds. The engine light would then blink a number of times, and you could then look that code up to see what was wrong.
With my Golf, I gotta either go to a shop and pay to have them hook it up, or get a VAG-COM (like 200$) to check it out. Or go to Autozone where they do it for free (some locations).
While I understand newer cars are more complex and have more codes, needing special software and hardware is really stupid. It should just display the code on the dash and let us get on with our lives. If I had that, maybe I'd know why my golf has been stalling for the last 2 weeks...
I've had only one instance where the check engine light came on in my '01 Neon. Turn the key to the on position three times, and it displays the engine codes on the digital odometer. Head over to allpar.com and look up what the code means. Problem solved.
- oZ
// i am here.
Probably has something to do with the fact that the engine computers in cars aren't being sold as loss leaders.
Also note that car repair shops who do a good job for a fair price are turnng away customers. They don't need "lock ins".
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
OBDII is standard... only the trouble code references are secret... I have an OBDII scanner... and next year, Pennsylvania is switching over to OBDII-only emissions inspection on newer cars. This pretty much REQUIRES automakers to make the codes known to official inspection stations. Also, I've never had trouble calling my favorite local Nissan dealer to get trouble code references for my Pathfinder. I just don't see what the big deal is..
Isnt there a clueless moron mod topic?
Conservative: I have a bad idea!!
Liberal: I can take that bad idea and make it worse!!
nough said.
I have an OBD-II scanner. It's about $100 or so, hooks up to my laptop, and the software is free and the codes in the software are frequently updated. I've never had a code in my car that's undocumented.
The interface is simple, there are now only 5 protocols and interfaces that need to be supported by any given ISO compliant scan tool (ISO9141, PWM, VPW, Keyword, and CAN). These protocols and interfaces are available for a huge fee from ISO and other standards organizations.
There is enough information online and in various electronics magazines to interface without getting the standards, but the real problem is that there are only so many well-defined codes. Every car supports those. But each new model the manufacturers add more codes that are manufacturer, and sometimes even model, specific.
The vast majority of the codes are available, what this legislation does is make it so that when a new code is defined for a specific make/model/year, then it's instantly published. Even now you have to wait a year or 5 before the codes come out because warranties take care of the vast majority of work. Its the heavy use customers, and the shady dealerships that make it necessary to have the codes as soon as the model is available, but the dealerships and manufacturer have every incentive to not provide the information in a timely manner.
This legislation is to codify what, how, and when to release this information, whereas now the auto industry has tried to avoid regulation by volunteering incomplete and late information.
There is one open hardware project to support one of the protocols, and some open software to support the hardware, but it still leaves out 1/2 of the vehicles, and doesn't cover more than one car.
I've been working on making a completely open, compliant hardware and software product to comply with all the current standards and allow easy updating of codes. I have access to the standards, hardware, and only lack time and money. Hopefully within the next two years we'll see $20 code scanners with online code lookup (hardware is actually fairly easy) but assuming we don't, email me about the interest and I may move this from the back burner. I still have two projects in the pipeline that have to be finished, but I could have something before the end of the summer if there is significant interest. It would have to be fully open hardware/firmware/software.
-Adam
Obviously hardly use computers but do drive cars...
Clearly a case of that members only act if they feel it themselfs.
This also says we only have to wait till "shit hits the fan" mode comes into vision, then members of congress will act on these monstrous tech laws.
Real cars
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
Yes,
The "Check engine light" coming on for a loose gas cap can probably happen to each and every one of us.
It happened to my wife a couple of times. Both times she was charged nothing. But, those two times she neglected to ask what the problem was. Now I admit I should have got off my lazy behind and investigated more but I didn't.
The third time she took her Toyota in for the "problem" they checked her prior service history and said it was probably a loose gas cap and that they would charge her $100 to turn off the check engine light.
She called me asking what I thought about this and I just about went ballistic. I called the dealer and told them to cancel any and all work on the car.
Once again, in this instance my family was at more fault than the dealer, but it would have been nice if the first couple of times they had told her what the problem was.
To me it seems that the dealership was probably within it's right to try to get rid of a nuisance customer.
Anyway, so got the car back and went down to chit-chat with a couple of my mechanic buddies.
They work on Porsches and the procedure for a Porsche is this if you suspect the gas cap check engine light problem:
- Tighten the gas cap, of course.
- Let the car cool off overnight.
- Drive the car a distance far enough to fully warm the engine. Five miles should do it.
- Let the car cool off overnight.
- Drive the car a distance far enough to fully warm the engine, again.
- Let the car cool off overnight.
After driving the car upon finishing the above you should no longer get the dreaded "Check engine light". The car's computer actually resets itself.
So we tried this procedure and it worked great.
The key is cycling the heat-up and cool-down procedure twice fully.
Hope this helps anyone as dumb as I was.
Caution: Contents under pressure
It's a pretty nice service for them to provide considering it prevents you from being ripped off by some jackass mechanic ("Yeah, the computer box sez your framistat is kaput."), and also allows you to ignore minor issues like the check-engine light being on because your gas cap sensor is faulty.
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
This info is only correct for EFI cars and trucks 1995 and older. This won't work on 96 and newer. Oh and by the way Fords are slightly more complicated and require at least an analog volt meter and for you be under the hood (most cases) for the dignostic port.
*IF* it's the gas cap. Cuz it's probably not. There are probably several reasons it's failing and odds are 99% it has nothing to to with the gas cap.
Read you manual.. I own a 1st generation Dodge Neon.. The manufacturer went so far as to include a key sequence (on-off-on-off-on) to check your check engine and get a readout of the code information through the indicator light.. There's not even a need to hook up an ODBII reader, although it does have the port for it to read more detailed code information..
And the FIRST THING it says in the manual under check engine light is to check to make sure your gas cap is fully tightened, as this is the number one cause of check engline light.. I'm sure Kia has something similar in their manual and I don't feel bad at all that she spent a grand for her stupidity
A few enterprising people have reverse-engineered the KWP-1281 and -2000 protocols that VW and friends (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda) use on their cars. One of the most recognized is VAG-COM which pretends to behave just like the expensive VW shop scantool in almost every respect. The only potentially useful feature it doesn't replicate is the ability to update firmware to the various control modules in a car. It even adds the ability to graph various sensor values, and with a cut-and-paste to an Excel spreadsheet can calculate horsepower just from driving the car around for a while (the 'butt dyno').
Very cool, and cheap enough for a only slightly mechanically inclined geek to justify.
Congress responds to two things: Money and votes. There are a greater number of automobile owners than there are Xbox owners. That's why Congress treats them differently.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
I honestly don't know why Americans complain so much about their fuel prices.
I have heard all this 'prices are over 2.00 a gallon". Whoop-dee-do. Here in Canada, my gas is 1.00 / litre now. That is over $4.00 USD / US gallon. At current exchange rates, that's over $2.90 / US gallon.
In London, from what I can find, it's currently around 0.90 / litre, which equates to over $6.50 USD / US gallon.
What's my point? That Americans pay by far one of the lowest retail prices in the world for gas, yet they still complain.
It's all a matter of the public's view of things. The all-american garage-mechanic needs to be defended, while the terrorist hacker needs to be locked away.
Call yourself a garage engineer rather than a hacker, and go with the "I bought it, it's mine." defense if they come after you.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
>leave it unlocked and someone will come along and remove the radio
They'll leave the radio, because it's a POS they can't sell, but they'll take your airbag, your seats, rims, your dog, and the herb in the glove box, and then key your paint just so you know where it's at.Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
I think the legislation allowing people to go to outside dealers for warranty work will be even better. In my case, I am an Engineer with a love for cars. I bought $700 software to reprogram my car, and another $400 on software to scan and log the data from the On Board Computer (OBD-II). A few years ago, I threw an SES (Service Engine Soon) light, and immediately scanned it with my gear. It read, "Low Flow - EGR Malfunction". I took the car in to the dealer, since emissions are warrantied for 100k miles in California, and I told them it was an EGR malfunction. The dealer serviceman looked incredulous. He replied, "You're not supposed to know that!" Long story short, I threw a code a week later and scanned it again. When I saw a repeat of the same error code, I looked closer at my repair sheet from the dealer. They had replaced my Air Pump, otherwise known as a Smog Pump, which is totally unrelated to Exhaust Gas Recirculation, or EGR valve. I bought an EGR valve off E-bay and just replaced it myself, thinking the issue would be over. After I installed the new EGR valve, the code cleared, never to return.
The story takes a funny twist at this point. I received a notice from California DMV that my car was being held up for registration renewal because of an uncorrected emissions recall. I look at the notice and it's for the EGR replacement. I took the car back to the dealer and they certified they replaced the recalled part. In other words, they certified they replaced a part they were unable to diagnose and that I ultimately had to replace myself. It's for reasons such as this that I sold my Trans Am and stopped racing. I spent thousands of dollars ensuring my '97 Trans Am had nothing but CARB (California Air Resource Board) approved modifications for low emissions, and high performance (427 dyno'd horsepower at the tires), yet $15 an hour greasemonkeys couldn't effectively manage the emissions process. It became too stressful trying to find a smogshop where people had a clue.
John Schubert
"Each model contains hundreds of codes," he said. "It's a huge undertaking to take every vehicle and to put every single code on the Internet. As we find gaps, we are filling them in."
Yeah, how would the car manufacturer's representatives ever get lists of codes for their cars. It's freaking impossible.
Given the shop manuals on CD for every new car, and anyone competent could probably have 100 models complete lists done in a week.
This sentence no verb.
she was a passenger in a parked car.
McDonald's coffee was on average 20 degrees hotter than every other restaurant in the area. Hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns in 3-6 seconds. Ie. Not fit for human consumption.
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?"
These congressmen can remember being young men, and working on their cars (for the most part). Cars are ancient enough, that even the 60-80 yr old politicians have all had this experience.
The automakers are actual businessmen, and for over a century have produced a product for a profit. Sometimes a lemon of a product for too much money, other times a quality marvel for less than you could believe possible. But always, selling something real in return for the money they get. It's counter-intuitive for them to think of their "product" being information, the diagnostic codes. Sure, for years they've never done a single thing to help third-party companies make aftermarket parts (no need to help the competition), but they've never really exploited IP law beyond patents or trade secrets. This is why they don't do DMCA.
Now, if we could somehow help them both make the short hop of logic from this scenario, to hardware/software hacking...
It makes perfect sense... members of congress all drive cars but they don't want to hack Xboxes. Gimme mine, fuck you. That's the attitude alright.
Perhaps this is because a car is something tangible. Every Congressman understands the need to work on your own car. Perhaps many Congressmen have worked on their own cars in their 20's. It is simply very widely accepted that people fix their own cars, and for that reason, Congress has no problem protecting your rights to do so.
On the other hand, your XBox, or your computer, or whatever, is relatively new and the need to mess with these things is not very well understood. Why would you want to open that box and mess with the chips inside? Only because you're some pimply faced geek with no life, most likely, and that's just plain stupid. That is probably how Congress sees it.
Maybe in 20 years, we'll have people in Congress who are sick of not being able to boot whatever operating system they want on their computer, and then they'll understand the need to protect your rights in that regard. But the big software and media companies are pushing as strongly as they can to make information rare and expensive, and to make sure that anybody who copies it for whatever reason (legitimate or not) is a pirate and should suffer punishments worse than 1000 murderers, rapists, and kidnappers.
This is what we must fight against. We must make it known that it is retarded to fight against the nature of information. Ooooooooooh well.
Perhaps what is needed is something similar to this ...o ots_A ctivities/hr2735.asp
...
http://www.aftermarket.org/Government/Grassr
Maybe instead call it a "Consumer Electronics Owners Right To Repair Act"
nick
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet - so I will.
I'm running a project to write a GPL'ed car diagnostic tool that runs under Linux (and probably BSD too). It's called 'freediag' and the current version works well enough to read out error codes (and possibly zero them) on at least a few types of car.
You'll need to buy or build a cable to connect a laptop to the OBD-II port on your car. A simple serial cable won't do because you have to have optoisolators to protect your valuable laptop from the rigours of the crappy signal quality you get from most cars. If you buy one, it'll set you back maybe $70.
Anyway - the project needs developers - and it needs testers (there are lot of different interface cables and a lot of different subtle variations on the supposed standard car interface).
If you are interested - head over to http://freediag.sf.net (of course!) and sign up to the developer's mailing list.
www.sjbaker.org
Okay, this is another fine example of /. getting the ignorant all worked up over nothing.
/., they incite the exposure of ignorance by offering up one-sided, hot headed, articles and everyone runs with it like it's an "outrage". The true outrage is when people do not think their options through before going on a tangent about how evil empires are out to drain your pocket books. Of course, they are. That is what a business does. If you want the simplest, 1-step, solution to your problem, it will ALWAYS cost you more than if you did not mind putting a little effort into it.
:)
Here is what I do:
1) Stop by the dealership to get the problem diagnosed by the computer. This costs nothing.
2) Once the official cause of the diagnostic code is determined, request they fax you an explanation of exactly what needs to be done.
3) Call non-dealers and get quotes for the repairs. Use your faxed description so you can express the problem clearly to the other mechanic.
4) Take the vehicle to the lowest bidder.
See? That's not all that hard. The problem with
This whole thing reminds me of a scene where George Jetson presses a button on his food making machine, it doesn't work the first time. He then sprains his index finger on the second push. The end result was him kneeling to the floor crying about how difficult life is. Don't be like that.
"To use the 'blame the victim' arguement"
Nice, but the consumer is a victim of monopolistic practices by the RIAA members. Little tiffany downloading Justin Timberlake hardly makes the RIAA a "victim".
You know those balls you put on your antenna to find your car in the parking lot? Everybody should have those!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Jesus Saves. He passes to Moses, who shoots.... AND SCORES!
I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox.
Because, you fucktard, the DMCA applies to copyright enforcement devices and nothing else. No copyrighted content, no DMCA case.
I'm just so sick of people (particularly on slashdot) bitching about the DMCA, copyright law, trademark law, and just about everything else IP without having any clue what the laws actualy say.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I'd be happy if the diagnostic codes were halfway accurate. My experience with a 1985 Chevy S-10 2.5L (engine code "E") is a perfect 0.000 batting average. In all the times the trouble light has come on, not once has the problem been what the diagnostic code said it was. It has called for replacing the throttle position sensor, manifold pressure sensor, oxygen sensor, vehicle speed sensor, and idle air control...and every time, the real problem was a defective (stuck open) exhaust gas recirculation valve. Guess which part has no diagnostic code associated with it? Adding insult to injury, the official Chevrolet shop manual has a test for EGR valves that checks only for blocked or stuck closed valves, not one that sticks open. In fairness to GM, it was a sharp dealer mechanic who first solved the real problem and covered it under emissions warranty (17 years and 130,000 miles ago). Oh well, at least it's consistent--and paid for.
I bet you gave some tree hugger slashbots coronaries with that one.
The "loose gas cap" code is an evap system code that is part of the OBD-II scanner. Most auto parts stores will read the code for free. The article is mostly BS.
Press "off" anf "warmer" on the climate control, and you can do just about anything without a code reader ! saves me a shitload when I have to diag/fix her
Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion, you must set yourself on fire.
Simple, a badly maintained car can cause death. A badly maintained Xbox will cost you $99 for a new one.
Like hell! I nearly died during the two weeks between breaking my Xbox and getting it repaired! One week longer, oh man... that would have been fatal, for sure!
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
Is there any source of information that can guide a prospective car purchaser towards models that have less lock-in via secret code antics rather than more lock-in? If not, what starting points exist as far as defining terminology and offering ideas as to how to even quantify such lock-in?
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
Who cares about an Xbox gaming system... It doesn't make me money. But going without a car? I'm out of a job.
I paid $20+ thousand dollars for this hunk of metal and you're telling me that I'm supposed to just kowtow to the almighty dealer every time I want my check-engine light turned off? I don't think so. I should have the option of going to the dealer, to be sure, but if I'm having a drivability problem, I want to go to someone I trust with my car, someone that charges less and I'm happier with.
I've got an older Jeep Grand Cherokee with drivability problems. Thing is that Chrysler (Dodge) keeps pretty close tabs on their trouble codes so every time my car acts up, if I want to plug it into a computer to find out why its running rough I have to go to the dealer, pull into the service bay, talk to some dipshit who tells me to wait in the waiting room. By the time the technician 'calls my number' the car is running fine and I'm charged the minimum $75 fee for plugging the reader into my car. Because its just running rough, no trouble codes are set in the computer, and therefore the only way to catch the problem is when its happening.
Conversely, It started happening again and I called my local mechanic telling him that I'm coming over, "Its acting up again". I pull up and he walks out with his code reader in hand, wiping his hands on a red shop towel. Plugs in the computer and sees immediately that I've got a widget stuck in the maniform valve, giving the ejection seat a prematurely high voltage which was advancing the ignition timing to fire way before tea-time.
I dunno what was wrong that time, but all I know is it was a $110 part and $75 in labor and my Jeep is running like new...
Dealers have their place, but not in every case.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
You are completely full of shit.
Congress doesn't want to be educated, it wants to be paid off.
Didn't you see that list of billion dollar companies above that lobbied Congress? Without serious campaign contributions, Congress would have paid no more attention to them than they will to you. Or in your case, should, you're an idiot.
The geek community has been putting up dog and pony shows about various issues for the last generation. In this case, I'll even add the consumer electronics industry to the community, because while they're willing to use their lobbying force to get what matters to them, unlimited H1B/L1 , R&D tax credit, capital gains taxes, and now, no outsourcing monitoring or restrictions... with respect to laws which might restrict the use of their products to the point where consumers simply won't buy them, they send witnesses to Congressional hearings.
So the aftermarket auto parts industry gets law that will get us access to "proprietary" auto industry code, and we get the DMCA and worse.
The "geek community" should have gotten a serious PAC run by professional lobbyists (not that bullshit "geekPAC" joke) to represent us years ago and we should have been willing to contribute or to vote.
Unfortunately, nobody who has made enough money out of our scene to provide the up-front money required to get such a thing going (estimate - $1-2M) thought it was worth it in time for the 2004 election cycle. So when they discover that the electronic hardware designs or software suddenly has to be approved by some Federal committee full of representatives of the entertainment cartel, feel free to laugh at them.
Instead of organizing effectively, we've been lost in Libertarian fantasy about ignoring the political process or the even more dangerous delusions taught in civics classes about the process as it ought to be and that if we could only talk to Congressmen, we could convince them of the logic of our positions and get them to vote our way.
Even redneck gun owners were smarter about this than we were, and they got the NRA, and got to keep their guns. Those senior citizens who "aren't smart enough to use the computers and software we make for them"? They have the AARP.
Both gun owners and senior citizens get respect on Capitol Hill.
We are getting what we deserve. When we are willing to raise real money to affect the political process, we will deserve better and we will get it.
Tech Public Policy stuff
There are different standards applied to your car and your computer, hence different application of things like the DMCA.
1. The owner of a car has a duty to keep that car in safe operating condition (if it is going to be used on the roads) If the law burdens a man with a responsibility, it must also provide him the means to carry it out. This generally precludes the law from tying him to a single vendor. (Think insurance, you can pay for it or post bond and insure yourself. You can pay for auto service or
buy tools and do it yourself.)
2. The law does not presently burden the owner of a computer to keep it in operating condition (if it is to be used on the internet.) Thus the DMCA may be enforced without creating a conflict.
3. It might be beneficial to require the same standard of care for your computer that we require for your car, but don't hold your breath. Car accidents LOOK a lot more damaging than unsecure computers.
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
There is a fable that has made the rounds of UNIX installations in the early days that describes a car that Ken Thompson helped to design. Ken is the originator of the file-system concept that is central to the design of UNIX. The fable goes something like this:
Ken Thompson has an automobile which he helped design. Unlike most automobiles, it has neither speedometer, nor gas gauge, nor any of the numerous idiot lights which plague the modern driver. Rather, if the driver makes any mistake, a giant "?" lights up in the center of the dashboard. "The experienced driver," he says, "will usually know what's wrong."
-- Source: http://www.parrette.net/~wap/wapProfessional.html
(and seen elsewhere on the Net)
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
I might want MYSELF to be able to fix my car, or at least be able to tell if the check engine light is something actually important, or just just an emissions nanny-alarm
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Certain people who bought Saturns were invited to these "Saturn Pride" get-togethers after a massive amount of recalls, probably to placate them and restore their faith in the company.
What's funny is that they didn't need to find their car when it was time to go home. A representative of the company would take the paper they got sent in the mail and show them to their new car.
A perfect way to organize a large-scale nationwide bad-vehicle swap, actually.
X-Boxes have not.
Cars are understood, they are 'An American Thing To Do.'
X-Boxes involve computers, computers are SCARRY.
Building a better backup.
Zettabyte Storage
This quote from the article sums up almost all future computing legal issues. "The legislation argues that consumers own their vehicles in their entirety and should be able to access their onboard computers." All debates about piracy center around this idea. As we, as a society evolve into computing (just ask any 9 year old how to program your cell phone), we can only hope that the government falls on the side of the consumer as witnessed in legislation pending regarding cars. The future of computers and of programming will depend on one's ability to continually manipulate code to suit one's need. I will be damn proud if my son decides to reverse-engineer anything. Jon Lech Johansen's father must be the proudest father on the planet
Just so you know, I like to start signatures with the phrase, "Just so you know."
I want to give a sincere thanks for that tip. As a guy who loves his car but has never even managed to change his own oil, I'm a big fan of AutoZone, for four reasons:
;)
a) I live in Memphis, their HQ city;
b) AutoZone graciously provides space for many of the Memphis Linux user group meetings;
c) Every time I've gone to AutoZone, the people have been polite and I don't feel like I'm getting screwed;
d) They've been sued by SCO
I own a 2000 Monte Carlo. It has an on-dash LCD style display which pops up any messages in black on an orange background. It was an AutoZone employee who solved my mysterious ongoing "Low Tire Pressure" message problem. I'd bought a digital tire pressure gauge and repeatedly ensured that all the tires were fine. I couldn't figure out what was going on, but the car's out of warranty now, and I was loathe to go to the dealer. So when I went by AutoZone to buy some Rain-X, I asked the guy working the register if he knew anything about this issue.
Not only did he know, he said "let's take a look at it." He came out with his own pressure gauge to inspect my tires, and spent at least 15 minutes talking with me like he was my best friend, no charge. Apparently the newer Chevy models have sensors which determine the "tire pressure" by judging the alignment of the wheels against each other. Assuming that all four tires are properly aligned, if one is rotating out of sync with the others, low tire pressure is a proper diagnosis... But if the alignment is off, the "Low Tire Pressure" warning displays incessantly. The AutoZone guy explained this in detail, I got a rotate/balance the next time I had an oil change, and lo and behold, no more "Low Tire Pressure" light.
Fucking amazing. If I'd gone to one of the local garages, they'd have probably charged me $30+ just to take a look, not to mention a proper diagnosis. The AutoZone guy did it free, and quite happily, after I'd made a whopping $4 purchase of a bottle of Rain-X.
I was once told that AutoZone has a 4 terabyte database hanging around somewhere. Any idea if this is true?
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
OK, I work in a major auto manufacturing facility as an IT engineer. Does anyone realize how much time and effort is being expended to meet government regulations regarding auto manufacturing? We've had to spend millions building systems that aquire, store, and track data for tires, airbags, onboard computers, radios, paint, fluids, batteries, etc. Do we obsorb that cost? NOOOOOO--we pass it to the consumer. That's why the average auto costs around $24000 in the US. What about the third brake light or tire pressure monitoring (and you thought that was an "added safety option"--nope--required by government and soon to be on all cars).
Don't cry labor--there's only about $500-$700 in labor in any given vehicle except the exotics of course.
And now--another government regulation. Not withstanding these codes are publically available and the tools to read them are out there. This is just senseless, meaningless, does nothing to improve anything legislation.
On another note, the CODE that runs the car IS copyrighted material. It's code-just like a game ROM. I'm not sure I see how XBOX modders are being punished but the "speed chip" industry isn't. Maybe that's another discussion.
I got a handheld OBD II reader a while ago. It is great to be able to read codes and tell a dealer what to look for, but the best use I've found is the ability to clear the check engine light. Many things that throw the light are designed to let the light go off if they don't repeat themselves after three or four engine starts. Rather than wait on that, I can clear the code immediately. If it keeps coming right back on, I know I've got a problem that needs fixing.
It is a good remedy for puckered-butt syndrome if you can run some diags yourself rather than rely on a hopefully-competent fixit shop or dealership.
yeah, they like their friend joe's auto repair shop who usually fixes their car for free, but he is complaining that he can't fix it because of unfair practices by the dealerships
Try the same thing now buddy in the 'good ole USA'
First thing they will do is slap you in jail and a heavy fine for criticising a corporation....veggie libel law (woman in Michigan spent a year in jail for telling a newspaper and showing the evidence of a cockroach in her cola bottle)
Next they would fine you and jail you for 'reverse
engineering by possession of a code reading device'
which could be used to 'discover the workings of
a security system' (your air bags possibly?) and take you to Guantanamo to be tortured (interpretation: you are not in the USA and now have no rights as if you ever did) and then prostituted as a terrorist under the Patriot Act
and the DMCA
Maybe multi-auto places have viruses in their open test-computers? Is there any anti-virus for car-testers?
;-)
Oh, my car is displaying a message: "I love you". Mcafee, help!
...for lawyers.
Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
Autozone will read out your car's codes for free. Why pay more!
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the freediag Open Source (GPL) effort to build a program to read the diagnostic information that's available. A special hardware interface is needed to connect your PC to your car, but they're not hard to find and not horribly expensive. (see the freediag supported interfaces list for more info including one RS232 to OBD-II converter you can build yourself.)
The project is still pretty new, so if your car isn't supported and the codes are available from the National Automotive Task Force site, it probably wouldn't be too hard to hack them in.
"Written laws are like spider's webs; they will catch, it is true, the weak and poor, but would be torn in pieces by the rich and powerful."
--Anacharsis (to Solon the Lawgiver, as reported by Plutarch)
Then why can't my Camry take me to the moon?
why the US has been trying to overthrow the government there.
After Kosovo and Iraq BS, I cant wait to find out the reason theyll use to justify attacking Venezuela if they cant get it done internally.
(The press in Caracas and hte whiter skinned elite have power but Chavez has all the support of the dark skinned aboriginal people, so what we see on the news is skewed).
Mark my words, if they dont succeed in creating a civil war, the US will intervene.
Just a matter of when and creating the right conditions for an excuse like the Rambouillet 'Peace' talks did for hte Clintonistas and their muslim terrorist friends.
dd
Parent's poster has hit the nail right on the head. Mod them up!
If you go buy yourself a new Dodge SRT-4, Dodge already has Stage 1, Stage 2 and Stage 3 upgrades for your vehicle. The upgrades are more than just ECU tinkering and will include new engine hardware. Info here http://www.mopar.com/perf_srt.htm
Fact of the matter is A.Z. scanners dont give real time diagnostics as the engine is running, also if the system doesnt store hardcodes they cant read the trouble code at all. There is also the troublesome fact that not all cars are obd2 compliant, nor does the socket under the dash stay the same from car to car. Not to mention our obd2 socket has 9 different keys in order to be able to talk to different brands of cars. Chryslers diagnostic harness is probably the most accurate of all the brands of car I work on. As good as mercedes bmw and audi if not better. Something else people should realise is that often the on board diagnostics are so bad they give you erroneous codes that have nothing to do with the issue. Our shop has Snap-on diagnostics equipment you have to spend a few grand for the initial equipment a few grand more for the software and every few years get hit up again when new software comes out. Same as most dealerships use. The high cost of the equipment is why all the cheap date guys bitching about a 60 dollar diagnostic fee get hit for that much. The open source diag that I read about farther up has definately peaked my interest. I am going to make an ebuild of it with the authors permission and post it on my site. Shampoo is better!... conditioner is better !.... .SIG rules Shampoo AND Conditioner!!!! ... what are you looking at freeswan?
Panel F, Relay #70