Slashdot Mirror
Caller ID Spoofing Firm Gets Death Threats
Frankie70 writes "Three days after the startup company Star38 began offering a service that fools Caller ID systems, the founder, Jason Jepson, has decided to sell the business. Jepson said he had received harassing e-mail and phone messages and even a death threat taped to his front door -- all of which he said came from people opposed to his publicizing a commercial version of technology that until now has been mainly used by software programmers and the computer hackers' underground. Details in the Houston Chronicle. Earlier ZDnet article about the service."
Attempts to trace the harassing calls failed due to their use of spoofed Caller ID information.
I didn't tape it to his door, I taped it to his mailbox.... ...NO WAIT! Ignore that last little bit....
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
Death threats may be going a bit far, but I don't really see a "legitmate" reason for a service like this. Telemarketers and debt collection agencies can NOT use services like this (at least where I am) and I really don't see a legitimate use for a service like this. I just wish it would be cancelled not sold to some other company.
If it's a death threat, police should be involved and trace the originators. Email and phone calls should be easy enough to trace if there's serious crime associated with them.
And if the phone threat's caller ID is spoofed, well, at least the threats are directly supporting the spoofing service.
Uselessful technology (Air-Charged
Makes the business worth more... "Hmm.. must be a darn good idea if the guy is getting death threats!"
:)
Smart move if you want to make money.
Just three more hours seapeople and you can finally take me away from this crappy God Damned planet full of hippies
He actually thought he would just Make the technology and no one would have a care in the world? Thats like Microsoft eating Linux and thinking no one will notice!
What a bitch. If this happened more often, we wouldn't have companies like SCO and others going on with their obnoxious, socially reprehensible behavior in the name of shareholder value. Don't get me wrong, I'm a capitalist, but that doesn't mean that a company has the right to shit all over everybody. We're all part of something called society, and we have laws and social norms that you must obey, and unfortunately sometimes the law doesn't completely reflect the reality of socially acceptable behavior. Just because it's legal or technically possible doesn't mean the people should bend over and accept it.
Looks like Frankie70 copied to me.
From the houston chronicle:
"The backlash against Star38 is the type of friction that can arise between for-profit software companies and hackers who resent the commercialization of technology they believe should remain free."
I really want to know if the majority of threats were from people who wanted the services to be free or if they were from people who decided that they didn't like the service at all! I fall into the second category and I'll bet everyone else does too!
*beep* *beep* BULLSHIT ALERT *beep* *beep*
...and this is just more free advertising.
The entire premise behind this "service" seems to be: fraud. I can think of no legitimate uses for it.
And now, the creator of the service is looking to sell out? If it's a dangerous life, why not just shut down? Obviously, he's looking for a quick buck, at the expense of the rest of us (and whatever shady organization snaps this up).
"Death threats may be going a bit far, but I don't really see a "legitmate" reason for a service like this."
But you have no problem with internet proxies, right?
Dont big telcos have anything against their supposedly foolproof system being flushed down the toilet for a small fee?
How about we begin the suspect hunt 1st among them who stand to lose the most? The article makes an allegation that hackers could be the baddies in this threat-case.
Only I'm not buying this version.
Hackers havent lost anything - it's the telcos that might have one thing less to sell.
AC comments get piped to
stfu and smfc.
Perhaps it is dishonest for a bill collector to use someone else's phone number on a caller ID, but how else can the collectors get the money that is owed to them. In a sense, though, it is more dishonest for the people avoiding the bills to ignore any notice given to them. Can anyone come up with a less contraversial method of formally notifying debtors of their responsibilities?
[snip]
The backlash against Star38 is the type of friction that can arise between for-profit software companies and hackers who resent the commercialization of technology they believe should remain free.
"In most countercultures, there is an aspect of selling out," said Caleb Sima, co-founder of Spi Dynamics, an online security company. "People who make money off technology are deemed to have sold out. Anyone who has a unique idea and is making money is going to get badgered."
[/snip]
No, I think it's that people don't like it when people use technology for slimy things, and want to get paid for the slimy things [pr0n aside]. I have no problems with Asterisk...I use it in my house, and have openly recommended it to some 'phone guy' co workers that like messing around with routing and stuff at home.
I know that caller ID can't be trusted...but that's only the first step in the puzzle. You've already got call ID block Block on your phones...so telemarketers decided to start putting 800 numbers and things like 555-555-5555 in as numbers on their outgoing CallerID.
I'm sure some people were upset. Legally, [IANAL], I think they could be on some shady ground, especially, if they're trying to represent someone else, when they're attempting to collect a debt.
I disable sigs...do you?
The article seems to suggest that hackers angry at the founder "selling out" were threatening him. Really? The guy lives in a gated community and a person managed to stick a note on his door and escaped unnoticed? I don't think so.
The guy might have just created this to get a good reason to sell the business. "Oh, it's so popular that people are trying to kill me. I'm not cashing out because, uh, the business might be illegal, etc."
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Anybody can generate fictitious Caller ID information. Instead of attributing the blame to Jepson, who merely developed a convenient method by which to do so, perhaps we should blame the telephone companies. They developed the insecure technology, after all, and appear unwilling to mitigate the problem(s).
Do you like German cars?
ok this got baried on the last post so here it is again ---- to fake the id on any cell phone what you need is the code to programe the phone (not the unlock code) 1) how to get the code: Call your cell phone provider and tell theam your phone is acting up and it gives you some message saying it cant authenticate on the network. The before they start in trouble shooting it aske theam if you can reprogram the phone. Now watch out some companies like verizon use over the air *228 to program the phone and cingular send updates through the air as well. So how do you get the code easy tell theam you'r not getting a good signel and that you want to manualy program the phone. The will walk you through manually programing the phone. Here it comes write down the code they give you and irnore the rest. Your phone already works so all you need is the code. Now thet you have it all you need to do is use it and the first thing any phone asks you after entering the code is what phone number you want. So change it to what ever you want I like (555)555-5555 then save the rest -Dont change anything else or your phone wont work on the network -- now why does this work well cell phones use E.S.N. and authentication keys when billing not the phone number but there caller id only uses the number that is programed into the phone so enjoy this and yes i'm a coward i didnt want to log in as my self to post this so dont aks me anymore ? about this --- and I dont believe this workes for nextel. tata
hmm...guy starts company, guy wants to sell company, before selling company guy wants to jack up price as high as possible, guy also wants lots of free media attention and sympathy, what should guy do?...ding ding ding ding...Death Threats!!!...I'm actually pretty impressed. I wish would have thought of something like this. Whoever buys his company is going to be completely ignoring the technology and just buying it cause it's been on the news. The service wouldn't even really need to work.
Are these the people who write, like, software programs?
Is there another kind of programmer? Maybe UML programmers? But I thought those were called MBAs...
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
I've never been the target of one myself, but I used to always wonder why bankruptcy lawyer commercials always said stuff like "Stop creditor harassment."
I always thought, "Well honestly, if you're not going to pay your bills, then you should expect people to ask you for the money."
Nope. Its harassment. Its actually frightening stuff. I first started learning about this when I received an odd message on my answering machine. It was from someone from "Kansas City" who said that she was despirately trying to get in contact with my neighbor, and that she had called the police and they had said I was a neighbor, and could I PLEASE tape a note to their door giving them her number."
Well, it sounded fishy, so I called the number myself late at night after hours. The answering message didn't say where I had called, but I waited and found it was a collection agency.
Basically, they lied to ME, a 3rd party, to try and get me to do their fucking job for them, and probably ruin my relationship with my neighbors in the process. They clearly didn't call the police about an emergency like they implied. I'm glad I checked up with them, i'm sure my other neighbors got similar messages.
These people do everything short of theatening to break your fingers. They'll say "We're going to call your boss and tell them you're not paying your bills. I'm going to try and get you fired." They threaten to tell your neighbors, to tell your children's school, etc. They'll call you 5-7 times a night demanding that you immediately send them the money.
There have been many stories of people who sent them a part of their bill, and then the collection agencies illegally used their checking account number to withdraw the whole amount, causing a chain reaction of them now being late on ALL of their bills, instead of the one they just couldn't pay.
So its no surprise that collection agencies would use something like this to fool people.
Yes, some people are deadbeats, but there are a lot of people who have lost their jobs and need to choose between food and their gas bill.
while I descend into a bit of profanity. What a chicken-shit fuck. They were death threats, if they really wanted him dead, they've proven they can find him, he'd be dead already. What a pussy. I dream I can be successful enough someday to have people threaten me with death, because then I've got a product baby.
no morals = acceptable
corruption = good
greed = good
sharing = bad
war = peace
can spam = more spam
safer world = more terrorism
anti american = opposing views
safer = less liberty
Why are they blaming this on FOSS?
Obviously, no one is going to buy that business knowing that they'll receive imminent death threats! He needs to go back to Marketing 101. On the other hand, he probably could sell the business for a nice profit because of the publicity that it has generated.
gShares.net
-------
artlu.net
how about some catalogues and special offers ?
who the hell is gonna buy this business?
harmonious design
I remember from the whole debate a few years ago about phone company services that would reject blocked numbers that there were some professions such as social worker and public defender that made a case for hiding their home and personal cell phone numbers. A legitimate use in this case would have the spoofed number appear as their government office number, rather than their home phone.
Caller's should be allowed to block or reveal their ID, but not spoof it. Receivers should be able to accept or reject calls with a blocked ID.
I've had more than enough calls from "0" which were not from the operator. I've had plenty of calls from other numbers that are obviously false (not 7 or 10 digits). I've had plenty of calls from numbers that were "out of service" when I called them.
If the phone companies are unable to prevent spoofing, the government should implement laws either to make spoofing illegal or to mandate an upgrade to the phone system to make it impossible.
Edward Burr
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
Anyone know how this is done? I can understand how to fake your cid number, but how can you fake CNAM? If I faked my number to a real friends number the terminationg switch would do a CNAM dip and display his number. How could I change the text of the name?
> Nathan Stratton nathan at robotics.net http://www.robotics.net
"We're all part of something called society, and we have laws and social norms that you must obey, and unfortunately sometimes the law doesn't completely reflect the reality of socially acceptable behavior."
Now you know why the law resembles a phone book.
"Just because it's legal or technically possible doesn't mean the people should bend over and accept it."
Substitute MPAA,RIAA,BMI for "people" and slashdotter's tunes change 180. Also of note. When a hacker gets busted for something "technically possible" note likewise the tune changing 180.
Isn't this "Death Threat" bull shit just a good example of self-generated FUD designed to SELL THE BUSINESS FOR $$$? Come on people, are we that stupid, that willing to buy into the TINFOIL HAT bs that this story is?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Spoofing caller ID is trivial, no great hack at all, and fairly commonly done. I'm amazed anyone cares (and have a sneaky suspicion that the news coverage and the "death threats" might well have been a way to sell a company for considerably more than the $5,000 or so it would have taken to set it up).
If you have anything bigger than an analogue copper phone line you can configure your PBX to send any number you like as your outgoing CallerID. It's no cleverer a trick than configuring your fax machine to send the wrong originating number.
Companies of all sorts have done this for years. Not just debt collectors and PIs, either. If you get a 'phone call from anyone at the New York Times you'll likely see a CallerID of 000-000-0000. Other companies will often send the main switchboard number at their HQ, rather than the direct dial number to the actual caller.
Spoofing it on a straight analogue line is a little trickier, but sometimes possible.
Those are excellent questions to ask.
X T, but otherwise resources for this kind of information are non-obvious.
Some information can be found by reading http://artofhacking.com/files/callerid/CLID-CID.T
Wow - that's some old school hacking. Nobody uses tape and paper anymore. That guy must be pretty l33t to pull out that hack.
Who'da thunk that someone would pull a real-life DDOS attack? (hyuck hyuck)
That includes not threatening to kill someone beacuse you disagree with their products..
Dont lose sight of what is actually going on here...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Or is this an interesting exercise in hypocrisy? I mean, the second someone comes up with technology to track people, /. goes nuts with indignation and right issues. But when someone comes up with a way to avoid tracking people, they're still indignant?
I'm admittedly not the brightest individual, but I MUST be missing something here.
After working at an answering service, I would page anywhere between 2-10 doctors a night with emergencys from hospitals or patients with sick babies, women worried about their pregnancys, adults having athsma problems, chipped/painful teeth, or other problems. Some that should go to the ER, some that could of waited till the next day, and others that just really just needed a call back. Doctors cannot give their home telephone number out. Most anyone who thinks they have a medical emergency thinks they should call direct instead of going through "channels." This means doctors use caller ID blockers.
There would periodically be problems with doctors using caller ID blocks being unable to call people back who block those calls, leading to sometimes unimaginable frustration in the middle of a medical emergency. The first time I saw this service, I saw immediatly that it could and probally would be abused, but for doctors who got stuck in that situation, it would be invaluable.
(begin opinionated rant)
The guy is going to cave over something like this? Fuck that, tell them to bring it.
What if it was a legitimate company? Software vendor? Would he still do the same, if he had received a death threat? If this gets to him, he obviously doesn't understand that doing business can result in ugliness like this. Still, I wouldn't let a taped note by an anonymous person dictate the way I conduct business. It's not like the man is running a web based puppy killing service, folks.
(end opinionated rant)
I just finsihed building the caller ID with name system for BroadVoice. I built a gateways system to a CNAM provider with a SIP stack on the other end to talk to our application servers. I now am looking into what I should do next in this area. Going to add the ability to add custom names to incoming calls so your CID text could be "Dad" vs PATRICK STRATTON or someting like that, but since we are not a CLEC we could offer Caller ID spoofing also as an option, but are worried about many of the donwsides.
I live in Florida and get those Geico commercials on both local and national stations. The national average savings is like $50 more than the local savings. Floridians are getting screwed! I guess we deserve it, after that whole 2000 "election" fiasco. I hope we get more hurricanes which eventually erode the whole peninsula off.
I thought the philosophy about grey-area technology around here was that you don't blame the technology - you blame the user. I guess that's only the case when it doesn't inconvienence us. A large amount of P2P transfers are illegal (or at the very least grey-area), but nobody blames P2P. So a large amount of Caller ID spoofing will be illegal or grey-area, and everyone blames the technology? Whatever.
Pardon me, but that's a load of crap. Unless Bail Bondsmen, PIs and Repo Men are properly regulated and reviewed by a governmental authority (read as: state licensure and review board) then there is no way we can be sure these individuals and/or businesses are using the product legitimately.
The potential for abuse here is REAL high.
Unlike other commonly available products that could share dubious possible uses but still have many legitimate legal ones (like file sharing), this spoofing "service" has precious few possible legal applications. Those few legitimate uses, like wire tapping, should be left to the State, unless properly regulated as indicated above.
If there isn't a law against this, outside of properly regulated/licensed activiteties, there should be. Freedom of speech and unfettered communication is one thing, but this fall way out of that spectrum, IMO.
.
uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
Use your primary number for everything else, and also be sure to have voice mail in case a call from the primary is one you wish to return. This system works because:
-
When you call a business, caller ID and even ANI will only return the primary number. The ringmaster number remains your little secret.
-
Because you only give out the primary number, information trading services will be useless in trying to reach you against your will.
I have found this very effective in thwarting telemarketers. I have not spoken to one in years. This system even works against numbers that do not allow "blocked" caller ID. A demon dialer or trusted party that turns out to be not so trustworthy are the only weaknesses of this system.I use a small Voice over IP company for my home telephone service and I am able to change what my outgoing name says, but I cannot change the number that gets displayed. I'm not sure but it seems to me that this is pretty harmless and fun, because it always still shows my correct phone number. Right now, when I call people, it says "PRANK CALL" on the caller ID. Ha! .... well, I think it's funny anyways.
JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP IRRIGATE
We need to hold the higher-up people much more accountable. Until then, nothing will change. It almost makes me wish that George W. Bush convincingly wins in 2004. Four more years and we might realize what we've gotten ourselves into. I mean Jesus Christ, a Constitutional amemdment to ban gay marriage?
Agreed, but only in the sense that this "technology" (Caller ID spoofing) shouldn't be made illegal, it should be rendered useless by phone companies fixing their protocol, something their customers will eventually demand. In a free society, you don't have to come up with reasons to protect your property from abuse by strangers impersonating your mother.
In a sense, the availability of this service is a good thing, because it should hasten the process of eliminating its effects, much like a vaccine stimulates the immune system. Code is speech, and nobody should suffer death threats for writing code or speaking their mind. Don't prohibit him from saying "this is what I will do", but listen to him and stop him from carrying out his plan.
Why the fuck isn't the parent marked flame bait?
The entire premise behind this "service" seems to be: fraud. I can think of no legitimate uses for it.
Ladies and gentlemen, a little background:
***All caller ID block does is add a 'do not show' flag to the ANI data****
It is up to the switch at the receiving end to strip that data when it sees said 'do not show' flag. THE DATA IS STILL THERE. How the hell else is the phone company going to bill for calls to 800 numbers? Collect the data from the dialing switch? HA! I'm not even sure that would be possible. Certainly not without a a hellofa lot of changes.
Spoofing is the only way to ensure you don't actually send your real call data (e.g. your phone number) down the line. I'm not positive, but I think you could seriously rape a company with an international 800 number too... just spoof your caller ID number to be some tiny ass third-world country and dial away.
For reference, I do software consulting for a phone company. Play with switch logs all to damned often.
I can't help but wonder is maybe somebody explained to him that his service is inherently illegal for collectio agencies to use, since lying is specifically illegal under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act:
15 USC 1692e:
A debt collector may not use any false, deceptive, or misleading representation or means in connection with the collection of any debt.
Sure people might think this was amoral ... but bad enough to threaten him with death? Highly unlikely.
... they are almost certainly the ones who threatened him.
Now the people who had been abusing this exploit, they stand to loose a lot
You can spoof Caller ID, but the ANI data will still be correct
I thought that caller ID was done through the phone company and people couldn't alter it. And I always thought it would be a great method for dial-up authentication and private networking. With caller ID, a computer recieving a data call could identify that the calling computer was physically located at a land line. This would be extremely useful for businesses to business transactions and banking. Having to rely on encryption while connecting through the internet just isn't as secure as a direct physically secured phone call.
Sure, there could be legitimate uses; say for example that you have a call forwarding feature provided by the phone company and you are having calls to your number forwarded to a phone at your location. It would be useful to be able to have calls from that location display your caller ID if you need to return a call. However, that shouldn't be up to a company like this. It should be a feature connected with calling card billing; if you use your calling card from a remote location and it is being billed to your phone number, it should also display your caller ID. Connecting caller ID to billing would also work well for tax accounting. If you were making a phone call for business, you would want your business number caller ID to appear. And you would want the call to be billed to your business phone number as well, for tax purposes.
The options for using this service legitimately don't compare to the possible illigitimate uses for it. This would be the next "spamming" type of business, making money out of putting others through misery. The fact that caller ID is called "caller ID" is so that it can work just like proper identification. Using a service like this to pretend you are someone else calling would be the equivalent of using a fake driver's license, even though it isn't percieved that way by the legal system yet.
I can think of *one* good use for spoofing- calling cards. Why not have the company performing the calling card service to take the number you call them from and then spoof that when they make the call through their system?
Frankly, I think bill collectors already do MUCH more calling than is necessary to "get the money that is owed to them". The problem is not that they can't make initial communications, or remind people they still have an outstanding balance.
That's already accomplished much more effectively with the "past due" notices and "collection activity is being taken" notices they mail out on a regular basis.
Bill collectors really just use phone calls as a means of harassment, to wear down someone - hopefully to the point where they'll just pay the bill rather than being interrupted constantly by the ringing phone.
As just one example, my ex-wife ran up a bunch of bills on my Discover card right before she moved out. Even though I had the card itself in my possession the whole time )and her name was never on it as a co-signer), she used some old "cash advance checks" to get thousands of dollars for herself.
I alerted them as soon as I realized what happened, but they still claim I'm responsible for the charges. I tore up my card and refuse to pay (largely because there's no way I CAN pay!). They called both my home and my workplace about 6 times per day, on average - and on weekends, call several times, starting at about 8AM, again around 10AM and again around lunchtime. I finally just changed my home number to an unpublished number, but they still call my work as regularly as ever.
Lucky for me, my boss is pretty understanding about the situation... but any fool should know that if you're trying to collect money, you don't take steps that could get the person fired from their job as part of your efforts!
And none of those require caller-ID spoofing. There's already a perfectly viable mechanism... caller-ID blocking... that provides the same level of anonymity. And if you're really doing something dangerous where you need to be untracable, you need to do something like call from a public phone AND make sure you're not followed there: for those purposes this service only gives a false illusion of security.
While most of you are complaining that this service sucks, and would allow of illegal activity, let me make the mandatory "if this is criminalized, only criminals will have it" arguement.
This type of caller-ID spoofing is already available WITHOUT this company. I have seem friends use a caller ID spoof, I have seem demonstrations "proving" that it works, and I know the methodology to get a spoof for free. So those who really want to spoof caller-ids can very easily do it. (Technically, what I've seen is ANI spoofing, which is even one more level deeper than plain old caller-id spoofing) Therefore, banning this service WON'T stop the real ambitious criminals who may depend on this to fish out hundred-thousand dollar bank accounts.
Rather, what it would stop are ordinary people from using this in pranks and the like. Of course some criminals could use it, but then again, the really serious criminals can already do it (see above). What hanning this service would also do is prevent people, and thus legislators from realizing this problem, and making a solution to it.
nice strawman
you don't need caller id for any of those.
um, the old fashioned way? getting off their fat lazy lard asses and mailing them?
Can anyone come up with a less contraversial method of formally notifying debtors of their responsibilities?
a letter perhaps?
Anyone with the open source PBX package Asterisk and a VOIP provider (or a T1) can set their CID to whatever they want. We have used this feature to handle an automated appointment confirmation system. Basically, we set the caller id to the business requesting the confirmation, and make the call to the customer. That way, the ID shows up as the business that they have the appointment with, instead of the confirmation company. Saves a bunch of hassle and makes return calls much easier. This seems like a pretty legitimate use of CID spoofing... This is nothing new... We've been doing it for over a year. Spoofing caller ID won't make any difference to law enforcement or telcos. They use a completely different system for determining the originating number.
Has it ever occured to you that there may be valid reasons to have collection agencies coming after you?
:) /cheapplug.
I'm 20 years old and over $3000 in debt because of schooling expenses and a couple of periods of unemployment. Do you think I DON'T WANT TO PAY THEM? No, I'd love to pay them, I even moved back in with my parents to enable myself to have more money to pay back my debt. But that does NOT give them the right to call me everyday, refuse to say who they are until I give my name, and make me dread answering my phone. In NC, if you tell a collection agency to stop calling you, they're supposed to -- well guess what, law != practice in a lot of cases. Do NOT defend these bastards, unless you're willing to give me and all of the other people in my situation money to pay back bills.
Now, I will give it to you, there are people who go nuts and buy TVs, cars, other crazy things which they have no way to afford, but that's not the case quite a bit of the time. Perhaps you need to get your nose outta your checkbook and pay attention to the less fortunate of the world.
(Aside: No offense to any people who are homeless/destitute by the less fortunate remark -- I'm quite thankful to have a roof over my head and food in my belly on a regular basis).
Anyone wanna help me get outta debt? Paypal jasonlf@gmail.com
Jay | http://oldos.org
I work in the late stage credit card collections department of a *very* large American bank. I can honestly say that a good part of the reason for people getting all the way to the 120th+ day of collections efforts by a debtor is because THEY DON'T PICK UP THE GODDAMNED PHONE. Letters, calls, and even legal demands for payment on large-balance accounts are often ignored, and many times people will simply go running to credit consolidation companies to take their troubles away (which sadly, in many cases, are scams wholly unto themselves). In the rare event that someone does pick up the phone, I'm dealing with someone who has no responsibilty to the debt they owe, and who would be more than happy to let their credit rating go to shit rather than set up a mutal agreement to pay money that they were all too happy to borrow in the first place. To those of you who question the morality of such service, I ask you this: If you loaned someone you didn't know very well several thousand dollars, and were met with blind indifference or outright disrespect when asking for your money back as that person had initially agreed in a legally binding contract, what measures would you take to increase your likelyhood of seeing that money again?
"I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it." - Oscar Wilde
you really think 'the law' is a deterrent?
: //www.ftc.gov/opa/1995/08/grlakes.htm. ftc.gov/opa/2002/07/dccredserv.htmn sumeraffairs.com/news04/nco.htmlg ov/opa/2000/08/performance.htmg ov/usao/az/azpress/2004/2004-058 .pdfs t/lamb /0009.htm
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1996/02/allied.htm
http
http://www
http://www.co
http://www.ftc.
http://www.usdoj.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columni
debt collection is a highly corrupt business and its very nature demands employees who have low ethical and moral standards.
... not a good idea. It could be an anonymizing service if it would either remove the ID completely, or replace it with one which is easily identifiable as fake/anonymous. In other word, I should be able to easily tell if the person calling me prefers to stay anonymous, and make the decision to ignore (or not ignore) their call based on that. Which is not the case here. ID spoofing is lying about who you are, rather than refusing to identify yourself. A big difference.
Funny... the IRS reports that the average American wage _DECREASED_ 10% from '00-'02. That's making it pretty darn difficult to pay back those debts. Corporate bastards... (This is the most insightful thing I've ever read on /.)
Jay | http://oldos.org
what they did was a criminal offense and you should report them to the feds. they can get fined under the FDPCA.
I will be remembering how funny /.'ers found this the next time somebody offers a software or hardware product which offends someone somewhere but has many legitimate uses. I don't have much sympathy for bill collectors as a whole but as someone who has on occasion had people not pay me (even though they have the money to pay) and simply ignore my attempts to get the money I understand how frustrating it is especially to small businesses. We don't want to get nasty about it but the system of annoying bill collectors calling you is far better than the one it replaced. Namely, bill collectors breaking your legs and stealing your stuff or getting you sent to debtor's prison.
I have been on both ends of the collections game and after just a month of this I can see why companies try to distance themselves from the nasty side of it and hire professional assholes to do the job
i mean come on...
businesses have just about every law on their side and now they are going to be allowed to mask who they are to trick you.
i just don't know what to think anymore.
the whole situation is discouraging and seems to be getting worse.
i'd propose calling my reps and senators but they are all pro-businessso i can't get anywhere.
although i'm open to ideas on how to persuade them to pass legislation banning the use of this product.
Is it 5:30 yet?
Caller ID and ANI are two different things. The telco will always know who you really are for billing purposes.
caller id is what is sent to the customer. ANI is what is used by the telco itself. even if you dial the prefix to block caller id, the telco will still know who you are as they use ANI.
You know, the Taleban have more than a fighting chance the way things are going right now. It's only a matter of time before we either have to substantially increase our presence (draft maybe?) in Afghanistan or get the hell out and let the Taleban duke it out with the Tajiks and Uzbeks.
I wasn't the original poster.
As a debtor myself faced with the harrassment of these phone calls, there is a way around it. Firstly, you _must_ send in a letter to your debtor, and state something like, "Per the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, I request and require that you cease and desist in the practice of calling me at home or at work." Secondly, when waiting for them to get the letter answer the phone in a similar fashion, ending "Thank you for listening, have a great day, goodbye." Or something on similar lines. And then hang up. They will have made contact with you, and if they call you again today they will have violated the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, and if you are so inclined you could then sue them for $100 or something greater.
It has caused my phone to be silent on matters of collection. It does not stop the letters and letters are easier for me to handle.
Mark.
The article says they don't know who the threats come from, then they say it's from hackers. Without
evidence.
More likely, from somebody with more to lose: the phone companies. If people realise the caller id is spoofable, they wont buy the service. A hugh loss for the phone companies of easy money.
I for one didn't know it is so easily spoofed. I'll never buy it.
Ever since I misdialed a number, relized it was the wrong number and hung up.
Couple minutes later I got a call with some ass screaming at me, so I hung up. And then again, and again. That jackass kept calling me. Finally, I changed my number.
Then there was the time I called someone on a business matter. Sometime later her husband came home, saw my unmber on there caller ID, called me up and kept trying to get me to admit I was sleeping with his wife.
Gah, I hate caller ID.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This guy is doing nothing different than what wallstreet does every day. Take advantage of stupid people. This is just another social engineer attempt to create FUD and exploit the unknowing. IT is called BUsiness. Just because it it some what technical everyone that thinks they are such experients in everything have 2cents to through in. There is nothing exciting here move along.
IPO tactics at work here
Huge difference between what shows up on your Caller id box and what actual ani switch records show.
Altering CID info only affects someone that actually uses a CID display box or service. Comparable to email spoofing it may make the unknowing look and say wow i got a call from the President but the rest would realize it was a joke.
If you simply were to change the cid display information a *69 call return would not route a call to the fake cid number that was displayed.
This does not pertain to such situations for example, holes in IXC's access lines that allow you to access switch tone and enter in valid customer numbers of their's that are loaded in the switch. This would in turn display the cid information for the customer number as the switch would think you are the true customer and dip the records for that customer.
You are still not invisible as a switch record shows your true ani that dialed into the Loop and then out.
You can only fool the fools, so do not depend on always being successful
What makes you think Bruno, the Sex Machine, did anything so heinous as to deserve that?!
These people are not honest.
Once I got a call from a collection agency many years ago when I still lived with my parents. The woman was trying to be very nice and explain that I had to pay my credit card bills. I was very puzzled because I never keep a balance on my cards. Eventually, I asked her for the social security number of the person she was looking for. It wasn't even close.
She had just looked in the phone book for someone with my name. She apologized. Well no problem, I figured. Bye bye.
Later I found out she called back to talk to my parents to convince them to talk to "me" and get me to pay my bills!
At that point, I realized that these are not honest people.
dude, I don't wanna rub it in or anything, but it was your card, and hence you were responsible for it. If she did something illegal in order to get the cash advances, then refer it to law enforcement to clear up.
If the bill collectors are in the wrong, then notify them that their unjustified harassment is to stop, or else you'll bring in the police.
hence you were responsible for it
Well, technically you're responsible for this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and that, and those, and these, and this, and those, and these, and this, and this, and those, and these, and that, and these, and those, and this...
And did you notice the fine print at the bottom that says that, should you forget to water the plant on your neighbor's back porch (which you're also responsible for), you will be penalized at a rate of $3000/minute for every minute that plant goes without water, and the professional watering service which is hired (at $10000/call) is also your responsibility?
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Just disable it. You can do this with a single call to the phone company. Sending false information is lame.
So far, the service still works, it's not in legal hot water, and it's well publicized. Since one or more of those things are likely to change soon, selling now is a prudent financial move.
About *38
Threatening letters are treated like direct mail - never opened and always thrown away.Calls that come up "private", "unknown" or "blocked" do not get answered and the cost of deducting wages for some debts is not worth the cost. Star38 understands this. That is why we created a simple, inexpensive and easy way for collection agencies to legally and credibly define caller id.
So much for his own philosophy. *snicker*
let me tell you...discover is once of the most aggregious violators of debt collection law that there is.
according to the fair debt collections act, http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/fdcpact.htm, the collection agency is not supposed to share any of it's information about a debt or deliquency with a third party.
well meet the third party.
for the past couple of weeks, discover has been calling my house looking for someone who doesn't live here but has similar initials.
i've informed them over and over again that they have they are barking up the wrong tree but to no avail.
they have given me every detail about this poor person's payment problem with them.
and whoever said it earlier is correct.
phone collection is used to harass and intimidate the consumer.
the only way you can get this to stop is to tell them in writing that you request they not contact you via phone anymore at home or work.
i take it one step further and encourage any debtors who wish to call me, to contact me via mail so that there is a documentation trail.
that way there's no mistaking what was said, promised and by whom.
Is it 5:30 yet?
By knowing my bank's phone number. If they leave me a message, I just call them back at their main 800 number. Not because I'm paranoid, simply because I have it memorized. It also, however, prevents any of this from happening.
Same thing with e-mail scams for eBay and the like. If I see something that looks like it's actually from a site I use, I'll go log in to my acocunt as normal. It will then get my attention, if they want it. Again more due to laziness since I use pine over SSH and thus cannot click links.
Not only is ignoring debt collectors stupid, it's also a superb way to fuck up your credit. Once a bank goes into collections mode, they've already reported your delinquancy to the credit angencies. If she was not a co-signer or an authorized user you are not responsible for the charges, so long as you file a fraud claim within a reasonable amount of time. This would require you to sign an affadavit and your wife would be investigated and probably brought up on charges for fraud. If you weren't willing to do that, then yeah, you are legally responsible for the charges. Otherwise, you could take her to small claims court or something, and well....I don't know you're the schmuck that married her..good luck
And I don't have it. What I would want is ANI (automatic number identification). That's how 911 knows who's calling and such. Rather than relying on the sender, it relies on the phone switch which, by design, must know the originating number.
Basically if it's not always on and always right, I just don't care. The reason to use it would be to personalize greetings or screen calls (or both). Well when I had it, I found that many calls I needed to take came from unavailable numbers. That made it completely useless.
Generally speaking, when someone goes into these marginal kinds of bussinesses, it's because they are scum lacking in morals. He's probably NOT a starry-eyed guy just trying to market a new technology, and unaware of the potential abuse. More likely he's sleaze and knows full well the abuses, but just doesn't care so long as he makes a buck.
Not only is ignoring debt collectors stupid, it's also a superb way to fuck up your credit.
This is no different than a bully mentality.
There are three ways to deal with a bully (credit agency):
1. Appease them (pay them)
2. Bully them back, harder (bombing banks is illegal)
3. Refuse to acknowledge them or otherwise avoid them.
Incidentally, psychologists will tell you that number 2 is the only viable option to earn respect but yet it's the one option which is illegal.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
The guy responsible for harrasing phone calls at home, is complaining of receiving harassing phone calls at home.
See, in Denmark, the dialer can choose whether he want to show or hide his own phone number.
It's pretty useful for prank calling.
The military and the police are different parts of the government. And the CIA and other spooks is yet another. They're not at all the same organization.
They're all agents of the state.
I'm starting to wonder what you have against the police,
Having to deal with them.
In my experience, cops won't hassle you unless they think you are doing something illegal. And even then, they might let you go.
Then apparently you either come from an affluent family, or you haven't had much experiences.
Overall, though, I feel safer with a cop car around, than without it, despite the fear of getting a speeding ticket.
It's been years since my last speeding ticket, and I can't fault the cops for it. I was exceeding the speed limit. It was my own fault.
The fact that you seem to overly fear and distrust cops leads me to believe that you either have
It's not fear, it's dislike.
1) little experience with the real world
I'm coming up on 30 years of it.
2) some kind of problem with authority (teenage angst?)
See last answer.
3) are involved in something illegal
I quit smoking the green about a decade ago. So far you're 0 for 3.
I see you attend CMU, I grew up less than 15 minutes away from Oakland. Google for John Vojtas or Jeffrey Cooperstein. In 1997 the Pittsburgh police dept reached a settlement with the US DOJ to end a "pattern and practice" of police misconduct. These are just the police within a 20 mile radius of where you are right now.
There are myriad other cases like Abner Louima, Malice Green, and Byron Gillum; I could go on about itfor hours.
Why don't I trust agents of the state? Because they can't be trusted.
LK
Note to self: always say "that's not what we have on record" for the first time, if the victim says something different then note that, otherwise if she complains say "oh, I'm sorry, that was the right [password/maiden name/swiss bank account/credit card number] indeed."
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
...and even a death threat taped to his front door -- all of which he said came from people opposed to his publicizing a commercial version of technology that until now has been mainly used by software programmers and the computer hackers' underground.
And as we all know, you seriously don't want to piss off computer programmers. I hear they can get as large as 400lbs.
...and even a death threat taped to his front door...
However...
Jepson, an entrepreneur who lives in a gated community in Southern California,...
So how does someone get in to stick a death threat to someone's door without people noticing?
Here's a piece of the Texas Criminal Code as an example. See part (B) below:
33A.03. MANUFACTURE, POSSESSION, OR DELIVERY OF
UNLAWFUL TELECOMMUNICATIONS DEVICE. (a) A person commits an
offense if the person manufactures, possesses, delivers, offers to
deliver, or advertises:
(1) a counterfeit telecommunications device; or
(2) a telecommunications device that is intended to be
used to:
(A) commit an offense under Section 33A.04; or
(B) conceal the existence or place of origin or
destination of a telecommunications service.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person delivers,
offers to deliver, or advertises plans, instructions, or materials
for manufacture of:
(1) a counterfeit telecommunications device; or
(2) a telecommunications device that is intended to be
used to commit an offense under Subsection (a).
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree.
(d) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the person was an officer, agent, or employee of a
telecommunications service provider who engaged in the conduct for
the purpose of gathering information for a law enforcement
investigation related to an offense under this chapter.
-rick
Did they get threatening phone calls with spoofed called ID?
Your link to copcrimes wasn't correct... it should have included the www
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
where you have to activate the card by calling from your home phone.
i want to know detail about the technology and how it works? since i don't live in your part of globe i don't have any idea about this. Please explain.
Actually, no, the problem is - when you're married and a divorce in pending/in process (not "finalized"), your wife can do all sorts of otherwise "illegal" things and law enforcement won't touch it!
Why? Simple... They consider everything to be "marital property" until the divorce judge divides the assets and splits up the debts. Until that happens, everything is just a "civil case", not "criminal", to them. (Among other things, my wife illegally forged my signature on the title to my sports car and sold it without my knowledge. It was never titled in her name. I contacted the police department and my attorney about this, but neither will do much of anything about it. The police say this has happened before, and they now have a policy in place of not even opening a fraud investigation until *after* the divorce is over, and then, only if the divorce judge feels a criminal investigation is warranted.)
Ultimately, the family court judge has ultimate authority over the outcome of your divorce. If he/she wanted to, he/she could theoretically force you to sign over a car or truck to your spouse, making it his/hers - even if it never was to begin with. Therefore, the cops don't want to waste time and effort pursusing this type of thing when it might be rendered a "moot point" in the end, anyway.
Same goes with the credit card debts.... It was illegal for my wife to sign her name to cash advance checks on a card that was never hers, but she did it - and they cashed them. Think Discover really cares about my plight? Heck no! It's easier for them to just chase after whoever is most likely to have money to pay it back (me, since my wife hasn't worked a day since I filed for our divorce).
I'm tempted to just label you a worthless troll and move on, except I understand you're not really aware of 99% of my marriage/divorce situation.
So that in mind, I'll try to explain this to you a bit further.... Even before the divorce, my wife got several credit cards on her own (which I was never a co-signer on or ever used myself), and she ran all of them up to the limit and refused to pay on them. Guess what? Before long, the credit agencies were coming after ME for the money. I tried the whole "I'm not an authorized user or co-signer, so I'm not legally responsible!" angle - and it got me NOWHERE. The credit card agencies and the collection agencies they often sell their debts off to don't care in the least about what's "legally correct". They simply want to get their money. They argue right back that "You're not divorced, so her debt is your debt.", and claim that even signatures made on receipts don't "mean anything". (I pointed out that I'd be happy to pay the debt off in full if they could produce even ONE receipt with my name signed on it.)
Due to this, my credit was already destroyed. (You know what they started doing when they couldn't get repaid in a timely manner? They changed the records in their computer to show the card was applied for with MY social security number and name! Illegal? Oh sure, but try proving that one in court!)
By the time I filed for divorce, I was screwed over much worse. She took practically everything of value in the house while I was at work, and took and resold 2 of my cars. At this point, "fear of bad credit" is the least of my concerns. Bankruptcy is inevitable....
When your credit is in the shitter; bankruptcy is a good thing.
I did it, gave my creditors the finger, and now I'm bombarded with MORE credit offers. None that I will take. I'm a bad consumer.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
Don't like how creditors treat you? PAY YOUR FUCKING BILLS.
How are you supposed to do that if paying said bills will put you at risk of:
1) Not having proper food to eat.
2) Not having proper clothing to wear.
3) Not having proper shelter to live in.
Yes, one should fufill all their financial obligations, but to do so at the expense of one's health and well-being is stupid!
How can one 'PAY [THEIR] FUCKING BILLS' if they are dead, too sick, or otherwise unable to work to earn money to pay said bills? That is the inevitable outcome when one does not pay food/clothing/shelter bills first!
Then, in another thread, the poster said he got $300,000.00 in medical care to save his life. He can't 'pay in full' as his estate is only worth $70,000.00 What should he do?
To address the bigger issue....
Should the American health care system be 100% totally moved to an 'ability to pay' setup to avoid giving needed health care to 'lives not worthy to be lived' because the ones in need cannot afford the health care they need to stay alive!
Here are some 'horror stories' of such thinking
John Q (2002)
License To Kill / Hospitals reserve the right to pull your plug
Then there is the horrific true(?) story of the dying kid who was 'kicked out' out of the emergency room and left to die in an alley(?) on the side of the hospital -- anybody have a URL to that story as I wanted to link to it but couldn't find it via Google.
This guy wasn't harassed, he's been faking it and getting a HUGE amount of free publicity. It's a great idea: come up with a pretty cool concept and then claim you're shutting down because "hackers have sent you threats". High tech new company + shady hackers + "They don't like me because I'm giving away their secrets" = big story, and in such a way that their target market would LOVE to learn more about them. However, I think it's totally bullshit because:
Yeah, bullSHIT. He's not going to the cops because filing a false claim is a crime and this whole thing is a big publicity stunt.
try criminal, it's more accurate
Thanks for posting that explanation... sorry to hear about your situation. It really sounds like the system sucks, bigtime :(
Pusi. He's not a man since he so easily gave up the company that makes money to put food on his table. "The pleasure I get in life is knowing that, near the end of life, I will have outlived most of the assholes I know and will have the greatest time ever while pissing on their graves."
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
XP Service Pack 2