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What, you mean this? ;)

Linux gaming isn't going anywhere without a console to take it there. "The Dream Lives On"

"The barrier to entry is very high, so new competitors will be few and far between"

What about Indrema?
(see subject of this post)

As opposed to hacking an XBox to use Linux (which I agree is a noble pursuit, if not flawed), why not find a cost-effective way to make a "LBox" out of cheap hardware. Put a penguin on the cover or something.

I think that our approach, as compared to some of the other console manufacturers, is to invite creative independence to come to the platform and really do some magic. To steal from film industry examples, I want 'Run Lola Run' . . . [and] 'The Blair Witch Project.' I want those types of zany things that don't really fit into the mold to find their way into Xbox.
It sounds like the strategy Indrema, the first linux-based console. Indrema is now dead ...

At least they have working prototypes. *cough*Indrema*cough*

Linux set-top boxes have already been classified into two categories: "vapor," and "discontinued." They've innovated on the previous business models by skipping the "product" phase and going right into "discontinued."

People have already proposed this in a number of ways. They also lump in digital cable/satellite decoding too, since that's just another type of MPEG2 feed to deal with. There was a discussion a while back on the hypothetical Borg Box. The ill-fated Indrema had all those capabilities and more. And the vaporous Nokia Media Terminal looks promising.

But in all these cases they were including hardware encoding/decoding for MPEG2, since that's the only appropriate codec for real-time encoding of high quality video, which costs buck$. A celeron 400 wouldn't be up to the job. This drives the cost well above $300, more than most people would be willing to pay for such a device. That's why Tivo is sold at a loss, which is made up by the subscription service. (I know, in the long run it costs more, but people are shortsighted when it comes to buying stuff and companies like to keep their hands in your pockets).

Even if you had a personal TV device that did everything tivo did, and were hooked up to a free TV listing service, you still have to get your TV from somewhere. The digital cable and satellite providers reeeeeeeeally don't want you copying and distributing their pristine feeds. Those satellites weren't cheap, and you're damn right they want their money, probably worse than most. If such devices did become available, we'd have a serious encryption war on our hands in no time, just like with DirecTV. Such a device would be unusable much of the time, which is hardly good enough for the casual user.

• Linux Operating System
• Mozilla open source browser
• DVB System running on separate RTOS
• Nokia Navi (TM)bars Lite (user Interface)
• HTML 4.0, CSS1, HTTP1.1 and JavaScript 1.5 compliant
• Netscape compatible plug-ins
• Support for GIF, JPEG, PNG, MIDI, Macromedia Flash and PDF
• E-mail client: SMTP, POP3, IMAP4, NNTP protocols.
• Chat support
• IP over MPEG (DVB standard)
• IP Multicast and Unicast
• SSL and TLS security protocols
• 2D and 3D residential and network games
• IR and USB game pads support
• Upgradeable software
• Conditional Access
• DVB, ATVEF and MHP Compliant
• Parental Control
• Support for USB-devices, e.g.printers
• Support for 1394-devices, e.g.Digital Video cameras

• Intel Celeron ® 366 Mhz CPU or faster
• 20 GB Hard Disk or more
• Full MPEG2/DVB compatible engine
• Integrated V.90 POTS modem
• Nokia designed RC

• 32-64 MB system memory (SDRAM)
• 4 MB SDRAM for video and system memory (DVB subsystem)
• 1+1 MB Flash memory for boot loader and DVB system

• Accelerated 3D graphics
• Graphics and video stream mixing
• Per Pixel Alpha Blending
• Special Effects
• Programmable 2D scaling (1:64 arbitrary)
• Advanced flicker filtering
• Macrovision 7 compliant
• PAL and NTSC

• 2x (QPSK/QAM/OFDM) DVB front-end tuner
• Digital satellite, cable and terrestrial transmissions
• ISDN, ADSL, Ethernet and Cable modem

• Multi-standard connectors supporting composite video
• S-video or RGB
• SCART signals for TV set and VCR
• 2x RCA connectors (analogue audio L/R)
• 1x S/PDIF coaxial digital audio output

• 2x ISO 7816-3 smart card readers (for conditional access and e-commerce)
• 1x PCMCIA connector (WLAN, GPRS)
• 2x USB connectors
• 2x IEEE 1394 connectors
• 1x RJ11 telephone connector
• 1x IR receiver (supporting RC-MM protocol)
• 1x RJ45 Ethernet interface (10/100 Baset)
• 1x Common interface port

• Secure mechanism, using triple DES encryption/decryption

• Up to 30 hours of data storing capacity

• Custom switch mode power consumption
• Standby approx. 5W

• Width: 262 mm
• Height: 104 mm
• Depth: 314 mm

• Operating temperature: +5 C to +40 C
• Storage temperature: -40 C to +65 C
• Humidity: -25 to 90% rel. humidity

Personally, I'm looking forward to the XBox. I am a disgruntled Dreamcast and PS1 owner who is mad that the DC died and that the nextgen PS doesn't pack the punch it should. Nintendo is a joke. But still, that's just my opinion, and with the console market so crowded right now, how can anyone expect to jump in and make any money?

Sound like a lot of VC money that is looking for a match to burn it.

--SC

accept it won't play games, but play the TV and radio. If Indreama hadn't flop, we could talk about Indreama II or something - a borg box that plays games too!

I was very active on the Indrema mailing lists for a significant amount of time and was part of the "core" team of community developers, until I realized it didn't stand a chance and jumped ship. No, this is not a troll.

The first mistake for me was not even having a prototype so many months into "publicity". I wonder what the venture capitalists were thinking when they invested in this company; the least I would expect as a VC is a hacked-up job that demonstrates rudimentary capability to do a base set of the things promised - a wooden box with wires all over the place like the original Apple. Furthermore, instead of immediately concentrating all energies on that (because concerete results improve your credibility and help to keep both you and your supporters motivated) Indrema set up a website making bold proclamations, a community development site (GameXchange) and mailing lists which, due to the lack of definite info, were filled with speculation, OT posts and flame wars.

Next came the buzzwords, terms that were used to hype the development community but were lacking in real meaning. Add indefinite goals and grandiose plans (which could never be fully revealed - I thought this was supposed to be Open Source?) with a liberal dose of "confidentiality", such as not being able to list interested commercial developers and publishers (perhaps because there were none?)

Indrema was a good idea - not a great one - that was poorly thought through and badly executed. It had little to offer in terms of true industry innovation and new territory other than the premise of independent/hobbyist/freeware games on a console.

Actually, if you didn't know, there is a prototype. Yes, there is one. How do I know? I'm on of those "50 opensource ..." people. And, there were pictures in Next Gen April 2001. The whole system looks pretty slick (much nicer than the Xbox), and if it got out...Plus, it is now running at 750Mhz with an AMD processor. Standard Geforce 3 graphics (yeah, the Xbox will be NV27.5, but who knows when that will be out? That could possible kill M$ by causing them to delay launch, or settle for NV20 graphics..either way they are screwed).

Also, the 0.4 version of the IESDK is about to be released. No, there is nothing new in it. But, it is completely updated (and it now included the kernel, so you can actually use the nVidia stuff in there). If the funding does go through, there will be an updated road map for all the sdk releases (with stuff like openstream and Xtrema, which are Indrema creations in it). Plus, us volunteer people have taken over some of the gameXchange / IDN / mailing list management, and there will be new content up on IDN soon. Yes, the place will come to life.

Now, what happens if they go under? Well, John (as you can see in last weeks chat log) is going to try and save the IDN and gameXchange sites as more general linux gaming resources. Also, they will be releasing all of their code (including the popcorn stuff -- their tv viewer and jukebox stuff), which they plan to do anyway (Xtrema is based on Xfree86 4, and openstream will be LGPL IIRC). So, don't count them out yet. Even if indrema inc. goes under, indrema the community won't.

-------------

spygun69
and
zgone2002

(These are listed under "Commercially developed" games, not freeware, etc.)

spygun69
and
zgone2002

(These are listed under "Commercially developed" games, not freeware, etc.)

I would like to see an Open Source console, one which can be cloned, much like the IBM PC could be cloned. This would lead to a vital market. It does not so much matter bout the software side of things - a games console does not really need an OS, the games can hit the metal.

Have you seen Indrema? Check out their Developer Network (looks like it's got much more interesting information than the main site). The L600 is due this year apparently so I'd expect more about this in the upcoming months.

It has been mentioned on SlashDot a bit before too of course.

I would like to see an Open Source console, one which can be cloned, much like the IBM PC could be cloned. This would lead to a vital market. It does not so much matter bout the software side of things - a games console does not really need an OS, the games can hit the metal.

Have you seen Indrema? Check out their Developer Network (looks like it's got much more interesting information than the main site). The L600 is due this year apparently so I'd expect more about this in the upcoming months.

It has been mentioned on SlashDot a bit before too of course.

Everything we've heard so far about the X-box seems to indicate that it's going to be an ordinary console with everything that that entails in terms of tight control over software, severe manufacturer-imposed constraints on products, and ridiculously high licensing costs.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark on the basis of Microsoft's acknowledged ability to create markets for its products, and suggest that in practice the X-box will become the exact opposite of a conventional console. Instead, it will become an entirely open platform, in practice.

Why do I think that this may be so? For a number of reasons:-

First, the console market is already fairly highly subscribed if not totally saturated, so the X-box will have to be pretty special to make a large proportion of gamers reach into their pockets again. All the other popular consoles are closed platforms. A way of becoming "pretty special" is ready and waiting. [The still-to-be-launched Indrema is doing something similar, albeit with a certification hurdle imposed, but hopefully this will not be a substantive barrier.]

Second, it just so happens that virtually all the big players in the console arena either have or will be bringing out new mega-powerful systems within the same time frame, so high technology alone may not be enough, especially since Microsoft is a latecomer to this market. A novel angle may be required to make headway.

Third, Microsoft knows full well that the popularity of Windows stems very largely from the massive buzz that was created by several years worth of unimpeded free-for-all copying of both the O/S and its applications. The official face of Microsoft may protest about "piracy", but unofficially they must know that in reality unconstrained access is an extremely powerful popularizing mechanism, vastly cheaper yet more effective than advertising.

These three things all point in the same direction: Microsoft will either make the platform fully open, or it will create an easy and inexpensive method for all and sundry to write and install games on the X-box, or it will turn a very blind eye to the cracking systems which will appear 2 microseconds after the machine hits the streets. Nothing is gained by restricting what can run on a platform (all the talk of controlling for "quality" is unadulterated rubbish --- people like to decide for themselves, thank you very much), but everything is gained by having thousands of products run on a console rather than merely hundreds.

We'll see. :-)
--

> Last time I checked, Indrema had no intention of selling the hardware at a loss.

Sorry. You're wrong! :)

To quote Karen McNeil's post on IDN's "Discuss" mailing list:

The only reasons that Indrema is selling the
developer console for more than the user console
are 1) the developer console will not be sold at
a steep loss, like the consumer console is, and
2) the dev console needs to be more expensive to
prevent consumers from just buying the dev
console to play uncertified games (thus
cannibalizing our revenue stream and forcing us
out of business.)

> Last time I checked, Indrema had no intention of selling the hardware at a loss.

Sorry. You're wrong! :)

To quote Karen McNeil's post on IDN's "Discuss" mailing list:

The only reasons that Indrema is selling the
developer console for more than the user console
are 1) the developer console will not be sold at
a steep loss, like the consumer console is, and
2) the dev console needs to be more expensive to
prevent consumers from just buying the dev
console to play uncertified games (thus
cannibalizing our revenue stream and forcing us
out of business.)

Indrema's Indrema Developer's Network already HAS something similar to SourceForge. It's called "GameXchange," and, IIRC, is being handled by CollabNet.

The Indrema people don't have a competent marketing operation. Have their developer relations people secured any commitments from Namco, EA or Square? Or for that matter, with Tecmo, Capcom, Eidos, or any other established development shop?

Do they have a developer relations team?

Do they have good hardware partners with a solid consumer electronics background? Do they have a sourcing and production team that can reasonably ensure a steady supply of parts and enforce good build quality?

Do they have a sales and marketing operation that has experience selling into the major retailers in this space? Do they have the marketing dollars to buy floor and shelf space so their product is visible?

Their current marketing, evidenced by their web site, is all about Linux, Linux, Linux. Why do consumers care about Linux? Why do retailers care about Linux? Why do professional development shops with the dozens of programmers and multimedia production people necessary fior making a modern console game care about Linux? Why do they think consumers want yet another second-rate WebTV-style web appliance when not many want WebTV?

They claim it will play DVDs and act as a TiVO-ish video recorder. Do they have partners for the DVD decoding component and the online TV listings? Are they revising the hardware spec upward now that a 10GB hard drive on a PVR is considered low end?

It doesn't help that the prototype case design looks like it was done by the accountant's brother-in-law. This doesn't come across as a company that understands the market for game consoles, much less how to create a product that can compete in that space.

600 MHz Processor

64 MB Fast Memory

Upgradable GPU Slide Bay

8/30/50 GB Hard Drive Option

100 Mbps Ethernet Port

1 S-Video In, 1 Out

1 Component HD Out

1 Stereo In, 1 Out (L/R)

1 Digital Audio Out (Optical)

4 USB Universal Ports

Integrated DVD Player

Wireless Keyboard/Mouse Option

Special "DV Linux" Distribution

Supports Mesa 3D, OpenAL and OpenStream(tm)

Next Generation nVidia GPU

MPEG2 Dual Stream HW Acceleration

HDTV Output Supports 480p, 720p, 1080i

3D Audio Converts to Optical Out

Integrated Gecko Browser and E-mail

MP3 Storage and Playback System

Enhanced Personal TV System

Bundled Game to be Announced at Launch

Well worth lookin' into

600 MHz Processor

64 MB Fast Memory

Upgradable GPU Slide Bay

8/30/50 GB Hard Drive Option

100 Mbps Ethernet Port

1 S-Video In, 1 Out

1 Component HD Out

1 Stereo In, 1 Out (L/R)

1 Digital Audio Out (Optical)

4 USB Universal Ports

Integrated DVD Player

Wireless Keyboard/Mouse Option

Special "DV Linux" Distribution

Supports Mesa 3D, OpenAL and OpenStream(tm)

Next Generation nVidia GPU

MPEG2 Dual Stream HW Acceleration

HDTV Output Supports 480p, 720p, 1080i

3D Audio Converts to Optical Out

Integrated Gecko Browser and E-mail

MP3 Storage and Playback System

Enhanced Personal TV System

Bundled Game to be Announced at Launch

Well worth lookin' into

thats the indrema console, but hard to say if its really going to come out.
http://www.indrema.com/

hope that helps

You're probably referring to the Indrema Entertainment System.

Gee, Rob, are your forgetting somebody?

--

The Dreamcast is going to beat Indrema in becoming the first open-source (I know, but I want your attention) gameplatform. OpenBSD is, as far as I can tell from the mailing list, near to support the ethernet adapter. NetBSD might be a strange platform for SEGA to have running on it's hardware, since NetBSD's license states that you can redistribute binary only. But once the driver is done, it will also (my guess) be awailable for you Linux guys ;) Somebody write an X server for it, and I'm in. (It will even be supported by kylix)

There's a Linux-based games console on its way ... http://www.indrema.com/.

Everything we've heard so far about the X-box seems to indicate that it's going to be an ordinary console with everything that that entails in terms of tight control over software, severe manufacturer-imposed constraints on products, and ridiculously high licensing costs.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark on the basis of Microsoft's acknowledged ability to create markets for its products, and suggest that in practice the X-box will become the exact opposite of a conventional console as described in the paragraph above. Instead, it will become an entirely open platform, in practice.

Why do I think that this may be so? For a number of reasons:-

First, the console market is already fairly highly subscribed if not totally saturated, so the X-box will have to be pretty special to make a large proportion of gamers reach into their pockets again. All the other popular consoles are closed platforms. A way of becoming "pretty special" is ready and waiting. [The still-to-be-launched Indrema is doing something similar, albeit with a certification hurdle imposed, but hopefully this will not be a substantive barrier.]

Second, it just so happens that virtually all the big players in the console arena either have or will be bringing out new mega-powerful systems within the same time frame, so high technology alone may not be enough, especially since Microsoft is a latecomer to this market. A novel angle may be required to make headway.

Third, Microsoft knows full well that the popularity of Windows stems very largely from the massive buzz that was created by several years worth of unimpeded free-for-all copying of both the O/S and its applications. The official face of Microsoft may protest about "piracy", but unofficially they must know that in reality unconstrained access is an extremely powerful popularizing mechanism, vastly cheaper yet more effective than advertising.

These three things all point in the same direction: Microsoft will either make the platform fully open, or it will create an easy and inexpensive method for all and sundry to write and install games on the X-box, or it will turn a very blind eye to the cracking systems which will appear 2 microseconds after the machine hits the streets. Nothing is gained by restricting what can run on a platform (all the talk of controlling for "quality" is unadulterated rubbish --- people like to decide for themselves, thank you very much), but everything is gained by having thousands of products run on a console rather than merely hundreds.

We'll see. :-)

Try this Amptron product. You may not be able to buy it direct from Amptron. I've seen a dealer here and there reselling them.

It may be more than you're willing to pay (in the $500US range once you put a proc,RAM,HD in), but you have a real-live computer once you're finished. Maybe even an Indrema killer.

I would say to wait for the Indrema system and get the best of all of the worlds. I don't think it does VCD though but there are enough other things it does to make up for it.

I'd disagree with you if you had said that GNU/Linux just can't be your grandmother's OS because I think it can, but that's just something we'll have to wait and see.

I do disagree with you when you say that Linux just can't be your grandmother's OS. Linux can drive embedded systems and Linux can drive VCRs, and soon Linux will drive a game console. I have confidence enough in your grandmother that she could opperate any of these (well, depends on the embedded system) easier than any Mac or Windows PC. Just because it's Linux doesn't mean there's a console.

Basically, there's no reason your grandmother needs to know what kernel she's using, and whoever can show me that the Linux kernel is missing something needed to make a easy interface, i'll buy that person a beer.

Now, whether your grandmother will be recompiling her patched kernel source anytime soon, may be a different matter.

-ben.c

For those of us that may have forgotten, check out the specs on the Indrema Console. Yes, this is being marketed as a game box. BUT, it also includes TiVO like features AND (wait for it) an mp3 server. And, it will be priced at US$299. Check it.

Why will this win? It's open. The OS is a collaboration with RedHat to build a multimedia Linux. The fact that the OS is open source alone puts it ahead. Not because people can open it up and hack it apart. I hardly see that as an advantage. But because development will be driven (hopefully) by something larger than a single company. Also, this system will truly be a multimedia device, capable of storing not just mp3 but such quirky things as digital video. Just think of the possibilities.

2 things I'd like to see from indrema: 1.Firewire support. Call it whatever you want so you don't have to pay Apple that US$1, but you gotta have it. 2. A non-game console. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I would be in the market for this thing. Hell, half the reason I stood in line at 3:00 in friggin morning for a ps2 was because it plays DVD's! Keep the non-gamers in mind. Scale down that "next-generation nVidia GPU" to something a bit cheaper and more reasonable. Upgrade the hard drive to 30GB.

Is Linux a better "mediaOS" (whatever the hell that means) than Be. NO! But it can be. It's open and it's getting there. Rapidly.

One nice offshoot that may come of all of this is that Be as a corporation utterly fails. There's just not enough room in the OS market for Be, IMHO. Maybe THEN they'll open source their OS and the linux crowd can have some REAL fun.

you would think that by now all console manufacturers would notice that just about all gamers want BROADBAND and not modems.

At least one manufacturer is thinking that way. The Indrema will ship with a 100 Mbps Ethernet Port as standard equipment.

Why get geeked about the PS2 and this thinly supported/implemented/considered Basic?*
You can buy the Indrema and use the devkits for free... Im willing to bet there will be some serious independent development for the L600 when its available - this Sony Basic crap is a simple effort to thwart UK tax law, shame on the $ony Corporate $WHORES$ who would purposely screw the tax laws in that country... The government should quickly add a clause to the tax laws to fuck Sony back - the bastards.

Who'd have though Sony (the proprietary crap consumer product kings) would do such a thing... puhleeze

*If anyone thinks that this Basic is going to be anything even remotely central to the PS2: Why isn't It being released everywhere? And at PS2 launch?

Why get geeked about the PS2 and this thinly supported/implemented/considered Basic?*
You can buy the Indrema and use the devkits for free... Im willing to bet there will be some serious independent development for the L600 when its available - this Sony Basic crap is a simple effort to thwart UK tax law, shame on the $ony Corporate $WHORES$ who would purposely screw the tax laws in that country... The government should quickly add a clause to the tax laws to fuck Sony back - the bastards.

Who'd have though Sony (the proprietary crap consumer product kings) would do such a thing... puhleeze

*If anyone thinks that this Basic is going to be anything even remotely central to the PS2: Why isn't It being released everywhere? And at PS2 launch?

Actually, you may want to re-read the "Certification" topic again.... what they say is that they won't charge royalties on free/no cost games, but that you must still pay the certification fee.

I still don't see how they'll be able to force people to pay this, unless their development kit/API's are restrictively licensed. I can see how it could be "optional", to get a "powered by indrema" sticker or something.

From the indrema site:

Explanation of Free vs. Pay Certification

All software applications and hardware accessories must meet technical certification requirement that ensure the end user is guaranteed a first rate, zero-configuration experience.

In terms of software applications Indrema offers two separate certification programs: For Profit Certifications and Free-ware Certification

Both Certification Processes carry a one-time charge for review of each software submission. For Profit Games that will be distributed for profit will also be charged a royalty for each title sold.

Games that are distributed for free, even if they ask for donations, will not be charged a royalty on a per game sold basis. The only charge that applies is the initial certification request.

It is:

"Indrema supports independent developers-so we'll get all the perverted games. "

And the number one reason to save your money and buy an Indrema is...Indrema supports independent developers-so we'll get all the perverted games.

I heartily approve of this. I'm very uncomfortable when corporations decide that they have the right to decide what's good for me and what's not. If Indrema will mean less censorship in games, I say GO INDREMA!

Like, for instance, the Linux-based Indrema game console?

Sega will now be a software company, and could write S/W for all consoles including indremeda...

The fact is selling consoles is an expensive, money losing proposition. No one (not Sony, Nintendo, or Sega) has ever made money on the actual consoles and has instead has had to use restrictive licensing practices (e.g. game developers pay a tax for each copy sold) to maintain revenues.

Considering that Indrema has plans to be friendly with the Linux community, it is unlikely that they will use restrictive licenses to gain revenues and thus may end up D.O.A. with no potential profit generator.

Second Law of Blissful Ignorance

Maybe I'm repeating (and I hope not) but the Indrema RUNS LINUX. Check out their faq.. not only do they run DV, but they call linux and open source, as a development accelerator not just a business advantage, but a business necessity.

I was intent on buying a PS2 (not an Xbox), and I probably still will unless Indrema can announce some games fast, but this is really one step closer to letting open source and linux become accepted in the main stream, not just in the tech world.

Another question, however, is why Indrema doesn't list the fact they are running open source as a feature...

Have you ever heard of Indrema?

Of course, that isn't to say that this business model is the only one possible. If you haven't already, check out Indrema for a possible alternative. Nobody's sure that Indrema won't crash and burn as soon as it gets off the ground, however.

I think you made a good point, but it can be condensed into a much shorter one which I bet will concern many a potential games developer.

In a nutshell, you want to develop GPL'd games for this console, but you are worried that the terms of certification for the Indrema effectively prevent that. Yes, it seems that you are right, judging by the information on the Indrema site and the implications by omission in the interview. There is little doubt that the Indrema is neither intended to be nor can be a console for GPL'd games, nor for GPL'd anything else, for the reason you gave and also for a slightly different version of it in (i) below.

I want to buy and to develop for this machine because it has such great potential for being the premier open multimedia A/V platform, not just a gaming console. I would like to develop GPL'd products for it which make use of the hardware beyond typical gaming. I'd like to help to make it the lounge interface to the open, online multimedia world.

The trouble is, the above will never happen for three reasons:

(i) It won't happen because you appear to be right about the incompatibility of Indrema with the GPL, and here's a radically different slant on why that is. It is impossible to provide to the end user the GPL'd source code corresponding to a released product, because of the encryption step that denies the possibility of any direct correspondence between a given source and a given binary being established. In effect it cannot be proved that you have supplied the source code, and of course the end user cannot prove it independently nor make independent executable modifications either since the certification process is a closed black box.

(ii) It won't happen as long as certification is necessary, simply because I would guess that ad hoc developers (unlike corporate ones) aren't going to accept being limited by one company's particular view of the world. [This assumes that certification will involve vetting, which appears to be the case.]

(iii) It won't happen for GPL-conscious developers because the toolset is NOT open: one key part, the certification tool is entirely unavailable unless you buy a much more expensive version of the Indrema hardware, it seems. The cost will stop some, and the restrictions inherent in certification will stop others. How many will be left?

Don't get me wrong, I love this platform and I intend to help make it succeed like the poster of the parent article. However, it won't succeed unless somebody breaks the certification system, and Indrema the company isn't likely to support that. We'll see what develops, but I expect it'll be a slow and painful ebbing away of the prospects of the console if it remains restricted in this way, because such things will turn potentially excellent developers away from it. I specially worry about the demo groups, as it's the kiss of death to lose their interest and great energy. They'll just go to the X-box where the manufacturer certainly won't be going out of its way to control use of its hardware, based on past precedent.

Opportunity lost? It's distinctly possible.

This is a possiblity, they have been fairly vague about the features. It does mp3, web, games, possibly Tivo like recording and mostly Open Source (a couple of proprietary binaries). There is an article in the current Linux Journal about this which mentions a feature called personal TV. Might fit the Tivo requirement. Actually I think that it absolutely needs the Tivo like feature to be viable, I don't see it taking off without it. If it does have a Tivo type feature I would buy one.

Not much on their website, but check it out.

Yeah, a browser with decent CSS support... like Netsc ... oh wait, Netscape's CSS support has flat-out sucked. Their only saving grace was Mozilla, which amounts to them taking the generous work of a lot of other people and sticking their "Netscape" badge of dishonor on it. No, it's not always a bad thing that IE took over.

but that moderate percentage of pro-Linux anti-M$ people just ready to jump on the X-box and hack it _must_ have M$'s attention...

Yes, but only because they'll be the first ones to eat their hats. Sometimes I wish that Linux extremists actually read their facts before mindlessly bashing a product. I find it humorous that the same crowd is willing to give Indrema a chance without even seeing *any* proof of concept... and I thought Slashdotters were wary of "Set-top Entertainment Devices" ...

_Adam Poulos;