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actually i think a more appropriate analogy would be:

- showup for the interview
- presented with nda
- either:
o sign nda and and proceed with interview
o decline nda and leave

with software:
- buy the software
- presented with eula
- either:
o agree to eula and use software
o decline eula and try to take it back and get
a refund

since, in most cases, you agree to eula before you actually get to use the software.

while i agree that it will be hard to get stores to take the software back, it's been done. this is the basis for the windows refund day. i personally dont think eulas should be considered legal if they refuse to take back the software after it was opened-since you had to open it in order to agree to the terms.

To me, the most critical thing in the Linux market right now is the lack of good software courses, books and software itself. Without good software and an owner who understands programming, a hobby computer is wasted. Will quality software be written for the Linux market?

Almost a year ago, Alan Cox and myself, expecting the linux market to expand, hired Marcelo Tosatti to maintain Linux 2.4. The the initial work took only two months, the three of us have spent most of our lives documenting, improving and adding features to Linux. Now we have reiserfs, ext3, a robust VM, UML, and the 2.5 development tree. The value of the computer time we have used exceeds $40,000,000.

The feedback we have gotten from the thousands of people who say they are using Linux has all been positive. Two surprising things are apparent, however, 1) Most of these "users" never bought Linux (less than 10% of all computer owners have bought Linux), and 2) The amount of royalties we have received from sales to hobbyists makes the time spent on GNU/Linux worth less than $2 an hour.

Why is this? As the majority of users must be aware, most of you steal your software. Hardware must be paid for, but software is something to share. Who cares if the people who worked on it get paid?

Is this fair? One thing you don't do by stealing software is get back at Berkeley for some problem you may have had. Berkeley doesn't make money selling software. The royalty paid to us, the manual, the CD's and the overhead make it a break-even operation. One thing you do do is prevent good software from being written. Who can afford to do professional work for nothing? What hobbyist can put 10-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free? The fact is, no one besides us has invested a lot of money in Linux software. We have written 3 stable kernels, and are writing Linux-2.5, but there is very little incentive to make this software available to Linux users. Most directly, the thing you do is theft.

What about the guys who re-sell Linux, such as linuxmall.com, aren't they making money on hobby software? Yes, but those who have been reported to us may lose in the end. They are the ones who give
Linux users a bad name, and should be kicked out of any club meeting they show up at.

I would appreciate letters from any one who wants to pay up, or has a suggestion or comment. Just write to me at:

3940 Freedom Circle
Santa Clara, CA 95054 USA

Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the Linux market with good software.

Linus Torvalds
Transmeta Corporation

I would then proceed to install Linux the first day I got the computer, without ever booting up Windows, and ask for a refund for the software. Others have done it. If they are going to charge me the same amount, then why not prove a point? Worst case, you don't get your refund, which you wouldn't have gotten anyway, but maybe you can get the point across. Best case, you get your point across and maybe get a few bucks for your trouble.

Not the easiest solution, but it kind of sounds like fun.

The concept is nothing new, to be honest... other systems that come with Linux preloaded exist, and they come with much more appealing distributions then Lindows...

Try this, and get yourself a nice Red Hat workstation for only $799.

It's a far cry from retail distribution, but really, do you want one of the most powerful and versatile creations of mankind in the hands of the average, everyday citizen? ;-)

This has been tried before, and IIRC it failed miserably.

http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/
Also:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22windows+re fund+day%22

The biggest miscalculation came with Quake III Arena, originally published by id Software. Draeker thought that a "limited collector's edition" shipped in a tin box specially made in China would be just the ticket -- so he ordered 50,000 units, making it the least limited of all of Loki's editions. About 7,000 units sold; most would be unloaded on a liquidator later.

I don't feel like paying for MS software that I'll never use.

You may not have to. See here.

I don't have a problem with clickthrough agreements such as Hotmail's. It is licenses of the type at issue in III.7 that I'm taking issue with. One of the reasons for the decision is given as "(3) the purchaser had the opportunity to reject the license by returning the software for a refund." This obviously does not always hold true, and in fact usually doesn't, as Windows Refund Day showed us. Microsoft claims that you must get your refund from the OEM. The OEM claims that they can't give refunds because Microsoft won't give them a refund. So in effect, the customer IS NOT able to return the software for a refund.

We've a seen few laptop-related postings lately, and I think they're interesting since I'd like to buy one. But I assume that the problem most of us have here is the MS tax. I've seen quite a few of the upper-end Dell and Gateway machines, and they look really nice. My guess is that the only reason people are looking at these off brands (not that ASUS is an off brand, I know their mobos are good, but don't you want Dell/Gateway grade tech support for a device with proprietary parts?) is because they'd rather not pay for the MS license that they'll never use. Let me get back to the point...
Oh yeah. We know that Dell and Gateway (and others, of course) aren't offering Linux laptops right now, but does anyone know if they'll sell one without an installed OS? Also, has anyone here had success with getting a refund on the Windows license (i.e. http://www.linuxmall.com/refund/)?

Hmm, in order to see him from the earth's surface, you would probably need to send a BIG Tux

Why restrict yourself to one distribution, particularly if you're going to start out by installing on an older computer? One of the best things about Linux is that you can get distributions dirt cheap. Go to a place like Linux Mall and get a bunch. You can even get multi-disk sets containing several distributions packaged together specifically so you can try out different ones and pick your favorite. Of course if you have a fast network connection and a CD burner, you could even download the ISO images and burn them yourself instead of paying $2 per CD. If you want, you can set up your partition scheme with a separate /home directory that doesn't get reformatted with each new distribution so that your settings are preserved from one distribution to another.

The big message, though, is not to take our word for which distro is best for you; find out for yourself. But don't forget to pay full price for the one you decide you like after you've made your decision. You'll get manuals, support, and help keep the maker of your chosen distro in business so that you can keep using it in the future.

I could go download RedHat Linux, and sell it for one million dollars a copy if I really wanted to.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people don't understand this simple point. How do you think Linux Mall, Cheap Bytes and others can sell RedHat, Suse, etc. for $1.50, even though they did not create it? Like he says, they could just as easily charge a million, there's nothing illegal there, yet people can't make the connection.

It's Free, not free software. You can do (almost) whatever you want with it. You can sell it, change it, give it to friends, you just can't keep it to yourself if you distribute anything based on it.

I bet there are 100s - maybe even 1000s - of Linux hackers that would buy a Linus action figure!

LinuxMall, Linux Central, Cheap Bytes or some other Linux retailer could get them made & sell them. They all sell stuffed Tux dolls already.

Or maybe a co-op buy like the Webplayer Co-op could work.

I agree with most of what you said, but about growing up poor. I grew up poor, no computer at home or school. For most of my youth I had a love/hate affair with computers. It was not until I picked up an entry level phone support job that I realized I really liked computers. Three years later I am working as a linux sys admin. I do it for the love and little for the money. I never graduated HS and yes I take a little bit of pride when I think about that fact and look at my income. But I will also say I take a lot more pride when I look at what I can do with that knowledge. So even without money you can learn, 486, a library and $2 cd from linuxmall and you are set.

The motivation and the intellegnce is the thing that seems to be running short in most people.

yes, right, send the guy to http://www.linuxmall.com

Oh wait -- does anyone remember this Linux server in a box? You also might be able to get Linux in a box at this site.

Be sure to check out:

• Baby Shower in a box
• NT cluster in a box
• Theme Parties in a box

There are simply not enough things that come in boxes. Just think how shameful it is for all that fruit to be sitting out there naked in the produce section at the grocery store...

Are reviewers induced to write good reviews by the implied promise of future free software?

I know someone who writes for linuxmall, a well known e-seller and reviewing site. They are currently being taken over by another company, and have been ordered, not nudged, not suggested, but ordered to write nothing but glowing reviews.

Let's hear it for objective journalism. Hip, hip, Hooray!

gitm

It sounds to me like you are performing a service. You are charging for the costs of downloading and burning CDs. I'm sure that you also do it for other software/files that you can't charge for.

I say that it is okay as long as you are charging for the service and not for the product. It probably would be safe to include a URI of the license and source with the CD so that the people who recieve them know where to look.

Finally, look at some of the sites that do the same thing, but over the internet. For example Linux mall has $0.99 distros of SuSE and FreeBSD. See what they do.

...I don't see RedHat releasing a "Unofficial RedHat CD" for $5 to help Linux reach more people.

--

...contains no product placements.However,it DOES contain website placements!hahaha!
Visit the UPGR
Laugh at Humorix
Buy cool Linux stuff at Linux Mall
Get free software at FreshMeat
And of course,a reciprocal link!
I'd like to see any of the major TV networks work that many open-source website placements into one paragraph.Then again,it's probably already happened.
----------------
Etot "sig" byit pisyat v Russki!
(35.0% Slashdot nezdorovi.)

I am talking, of course, Larry McVoy's thoughts on scalability and SMP clusters. Here is a link on the problems with SMP, and here are the slides without explanation.

The theory goes like this. In an SMP system all of the CPUs have to be made to pay attention when any of the CPUs wants to do something where races would be bad. To do that you need good latency, which means that you need to fine-tune what is locked where and for how long. This introduces a lot of overhead.

Instead what Larry wants is to have a machine with a lot of CPUs turn itself internally into a cluster of Linux machines that just happen to network Really Fast. There are good theoretical reasons why this should scale Really Well.

One of the key items in this vision is the ability to run virtual machines within Linux. Guess what User Mode Linux is? :-) The other piece of the puzzle is making a cluster work like one machine, and Ron Minnich has been doing some work there.

In 2 years, care for a 1000 CPU multi-threaded database server? With failover? :-) :-) :-)

Cheers,
Ben

1. Release Commerical version (aka "What pays the bills")
2. Release Iso version, nicknamed the "evaluation " - not as in beta, as in you evaluating the distro itself
3. Dump all packages on ftp.

LnuxMall has a linux keyboard (see previous post). But it just replaces the win9x key with a penguin key :) Also comes with extra ctrl and caps lock keys in case you want to remap.

LinuxMall has a cool linux keyboard for about 39.95. I have one, and it kicks ass :)

http://linuxmall.com/news/feature s/000322zipspeak

You may find the following more useful... http://linuxmall.com/news/feature s/000322zipspeak

The Linux Mall has a solution.. There are an assortment of sizes, and a costume available.. Admittedly, they're not exact replicas of the Ewing Tux, but they are better than nothing. I do have a stuffed pengiun myself, but through other sources (a Hallmark store).


Methinks Slashdot needs a knowledge-mining FAQ ;)
---

Money's no problem. Every Linux distribution I know of makes their OS freely downloadable. If you don't want to take the time to download an entire operating system, you can buy a Linux CD for just a few dollars. I got a Red Hat 6.0 CD from Linuxmall.com for less than $10, including shipping. If you don't want to try to repartition your hard drive (for which I wouldn't blame you), you can get Slackware and do a UMSDOS install, or download a miniature Linux like Peanut Linux.

Now as for finding time to learn Linux, that's a little harder, but it's not impossible. I learned Linux in my spare time in my sophomore year of college, but I'm a nerd, and you may not be willing to invest such a huge chunk of your free time in learning an entirely new OS. But once you do learn it, you'll never again have to deal with one of those #@$# blue screens, which I think is enough to justify the time spent.

Okay, getting back on topic...

...MS will still be dominent and should be forced to either release or auciton off its source code.

I'll admit MS deserves to be reduced and/or broken up, but forcing them to release their source code seems more like a mugging than a fair solution. Practically all of Microsoft's revenue comes from the sale of their software. Forcing them to give away all of their source would destroy their revenue stream. There's no way they would be able to recover. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Microsoft die, but I'd rather they die in a fair fight than be murdered by the government. I think splitting the company, or simply requiring them to open their API's and file formats, would be sufficient.

Reading the mailing lists tech-kern, tech-smp, tech-userlevel, port-macppc seem to point that NetBSD/macppc is a suspect.

If you installed another OS and know how to close bugs you can report or query a bug. If you have not found how to get NetBSD CD-ROMs LinuxMall sells these three: NetBSD 2-CD Set, NetBSD-current Snapshot CD or an out of stock NetBSD T-Shirt XL.

Reading the mailing lists tech-kern, tech-smp, tech-userlevel, port-macppc seem to point that NetBSD/macppc is a suspect.

If you installed another OS and know how to close bugs you can report or query a bug. If you have not found how to get NetBSD CD-ROMs LinuxMall sells these three: NetBSD 2-CD Set, NetBSD-current Snapshot CD or an out of stock NetBSD T-Shirt XL.

Reading the mailing lists tech-kern, tech-smp, tech-userlevel, port-macppc seem to point that NetBSD/macppc is a suspect.

If you installed another OS and know how to close bugs you can report or query a bug. If you have not found how to get NetBSD CD-ROMs LinuxMall sells these three: NetBSD 2-CD Set, NetBSD-current Snapshot CD or an out of stock NetBSD T-Shirt XL.

I'm a bit curious about where the determination will be made about whether or not the publisher is infringing on Transasia's rights... here (the USA), France, Asia? What happens if a court in France decides that the publisher is infringing but one of our courts doesn't? What will happen to our search engines if Transasia can snow the right people?

Actually, I don't think anything that big will come of it. What bothers me about it is that it is another example of a large corporation screwing a much smaller entity. Transasia can easily afford whatever legal services are necessary for their action, and whether or not they succeed will hardly make a dent in their business. On the other hand, the publisher is non-profit and probably doesn't have the resources to deal with a nuisance lawsuit -- regardless of what happens with the case their publication will be strongly affected.

It's obvious that our laws need some revising.

I knew the finals week was in the way for the big chunk of people who would've gone to the Bazaar, but it's better this way because I didn't have to be trampled by them. I think the LinuxWorld Expo would require more space in the Javits Convention Center for college folks to move around. I wish I could buy a Slashdot t-shirt from Copyleft

From now on, we shall call Jeff Bates "Cute Little Hemos!"

I can't wait for LWE!
--

I can't believe the Linux Cool Keyboard wasn't mentioned already and I'm really surprised more linux vendors don't sell this thing as standard. PS2 style, it has tactile feedback, L-shaped Enter key, inverted-T arrow keys, wake, sleep, and power keys, removable keyboard cover, NO WINDOZE KEY (107 total), in fact it has two Tux's and one "linux key" instead, and only $34.95 at Linuxmall.com . In fact, the price just went down. I just bought one 2 weeks ago there for $37. Has 1 year warranty and has the feel of the original IBM keyboards. If you dual boot into windoze, the Tux key functions the same as the Jolly Roger, er I mean the windoze flag key. This keyboard is outstanding, and it's certainly cheaper than those "Hey I've got an idea, let's put the arrow keys in one tiny cross pattern to torture our customers" that you find in horribly overpriced MS_Carpaltunnel Keyboards®

http://www.linuxmall.com/shop/01522

These things rock! Check them out... good for all ages! They look like kids toys but are extremely fun!

• A Personal Jukebox MP3 player w/ the car audio kit
• The ever-popular choice, a 3Com Palm Vx
• I could really use a new harddrive, or, better yet...
• I'd love to have an Athlon system to replace my P133
• Tux would make a great stocking stuffer
• I'd like to have a DVD player

Someone registered it, tried to milk the copyright and then experienced the fury of the community. Finally, he donated it to Linus.

See http://www.linuxmall.com/news/ announce/lxtm.001.html for a bit of legal speak about the story.



------------------

You might want to check out Linuxmall in Denver. http://www.linuxmall.com I heard that they are looking for a technical writer.

Walter

linuxmall normally gets their cds made pretty quickly. they're something like $1.99 for linux/*bsd.

Even though this is legally enforceable in the USA only, they should be able to use the same approach in other countries if needed. Also, owning the trademark in the USA already may constitute a good argument in many jurisdictions. However, that may depend on the actual circumstances in each particular case and country.

Found it. The link is at Linux PR, the company is CoolKeyboards, and you can get 'em at Linux Mall or sales@coolkeyboards.com

The thing is, not only did I not expect support from Red Hat, I knew that to get that price I couldn't even call Linux Mall to talk to a real person about my order. That's why it was cheap.

Red Hat probably (hopefully?) pays their tech support team a fair bit of money to answer questions for Red Hat users. Where do they get the money to do that? By selling that same $1.89 CD in a pretty box for $30+.

I hope it's obvious that if RH offers support to everyone using the RH distro, they will quickly go out of business. So they limit support to people who have paid for it by buying an Official RH package.

Red Hat Linux: $1.89. You want support with that? Another $30, please.

The problem that initiated this article is that some people are selling the equivalent of those $1.89 CD's on Amazon and eBay and so on, and either accidentally or intentially implying that purchasers are getting the Official product with support included.

To protect those purchasers, RH is simply saying "Don't call it Official if it isn't. Don't give your buyers the impression that they can call for support."

Duh.

Have you got your tickets to VCF 3.0 yet?

Here's a link to the e-mail record of the defense of the Linux® trademark in the US.

One example is at LinuxMall.

You only have to aggresively defend patents. You can let trademarks go w/ no fear of losing the trademark. Look at "linux" for an example. Linus afaik does NOTHING to defend the trademark, yet it's still his.

Why don't you give that bit of sage advice to the originators of heroin, zipper, aspirin, escalator, granola, yo-yo and linoleum ... all trademarks that were not protected, and lost.

It's the responsibility of the trademark owner to research the mark's distinctiveness in the beginning, to police the market for competitors' use of possibly infringing marks, and to object before an "unreasonable" time has passed -- otherwise there aren't legal grounds to claim infringement.

As for Linus -- he's actually vigorously and quickly defended the Linux trademark. Note that allowing others to use the trademark doesn't infringe, if they are doing so as agents of the owner. Variant Linux distributions fall under that rubric. Granted, this is a special -- perhaps very nearly unique -- case, but in principle it's not very different from, say, a restaurant franchising operation.

Fede

Its neve too cold for a penguin! If its too cold for you, there are fuzzy and cuddly penguins and can be found at linuxmall. I have a few proudly hacking away on my webcam.

Or LinuxMall.

See this article at linux.com

Returning to the main topic of this thread, I see myself as being in two positions at once. I am writing a piece of software that I wish to open-source, and getting paid for it would be nice but it's not my motivation. I also wish to help compensate the people who have written my OS, but unless I can be sure my little donation is being combined with thousands of others' donations, these people are receiving "tokens" rather than what they deserve.

We need organizations like SourceXchange to help change the economics of software development.