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IT Salary Comparisons Worldwide
Bagpiper asks: "The combination of a recent /. comment, as well as my wife's desire to live overseas, started my pondering about what my pay (mid-Atlantic US software/firmware engineer w/ 9 yrs exp.) would compare to that of a similar job in another country? Several sources tell me what I'd be making in The Valley or Seattle, but none tell me what I'd make if I moved to Ireland, or to Germany, or to Taiwan (you get the idea)? A related question is what kind of standard of living would I expect in another country on the expected salary? (And just in case my current employers or headhunters see this, I'm not currently looking! I'm just curious."
and this from Johnath: ""The more I look at places like monster.com (and it's Canadian Counterpart) the more I see "Salary: TBD" or "Please submit salary expectations with your resume and cover letter" or other equally vague phrases. As someone in the last year or two of his university education, this gets a little disturbing since I can't really tell what my salary expectations are without some reference for comparison. Normally, I'd get that by looking at the job postings themselves, but of course, they've all taken to being painfully cryptic. So what I want to know is - what's a geek cost these days? What kind of money do Slashdotters make in the various Computing and IT related fields.
What are the broader ranges - do network guys/gals get paid more than code monkeys? How does the pay of the web design team compare to the network admin that keeps the site running (and if they're the same person, how much better is the pay?"
(I'm posting as a AC as I'm not allowed to post salary info in my company's terms and conditions, I think. Better safe than sorry, right?) I'm a sysadmin who's been with this company 5 years, with solid levels of certification to back it up (RHCE, CNA, etc). I am responsible for thousands of users' email, news, dedicated circuits (to DS3 level), web hosting, as well as internal systems. I manage a crew of several people (more than a half dozen). And I make about 33.5K a year. I'm located in Ohio Valley region (not gonna get more specific or the higher ups will know who I am). Tell me I'm not getting screwed?
The market in ireland is short of staff, so the wages are good, but there are a few drawbacks, the tax rate is very high, and the cost of housing is extremly high if you are anywhere near dublin where most of the techie work is.
Starting rate for a programmer I'd guess is about £18-20k, but with experience and qualifications you could be making £30k
What is suprising is that non-graduates can earn exactly the same as those with degrees. My experiences as someone who came to England to work are along these lines - First contract with making 25UKP/hour on a short term 3 month contract. With extensions and more work, it quickly climbs to over 40/hour. If you are willing to do contract work and know your stuff, then you can make some serious money (should be enough to keep a wife on). However, the government to trying to get more money out of the small business contractor by introducion IR35 mandate (with anyluck, it will ammuse the lords will will just bin it). More in London but be prepared for the extra costs as living in London can be very hard on the pocket.
What is a salary? a comparison?
I don't understand.
We start our coders at around 35,000, though that will usually rise to around 42,000 afer the first year. Network and operation guys make a little less. Someone with 5-7 years experience should expect around 60 - 65,000. It's been my experience that the starting salery is relatively high, but the curve flattens as the geeks salery approaches that of thier management. Contract work is a whole different ballgame though.....
now that first post is out of the way, this is for real.
This depends on your line of work. I was consulting in Boston last year for upwards of 100K per year at 100% travel (graduated with BS 5/98). The work was boring, though, so I left for greener pastures which turned out to be grad school.
Companies more oriented to building the technology (rather than e-commerce systems, data warehouses, etc.) were offering things more in the range of 47-52K starting. Most of these were in northern VA or RTP.
A lot of this money thing depends on what you want to do. Are you willing to sacrifice your geek-soul to go do consulting work? Very rarely is that kind of thing technically challenging or rewarding IMNSHO. Or, are you more willing to take a pay cut, not travel every week, and do some very cool work? The coolest stuff I could find on the east coast was my own agenda which is why I'm back in grad school.
If you're worth your salt technically, the money will come. The other thing to consider is where you want to live (RTP in NC - yuck!, WA, CA, MA) and what it costs to live there.
I'll be watching this discussion too since I'll be looking for real work in another year myself.
Good luck...
Damn, its nice to be the best. I've been doing UNIX since I was a teenager (I'm 27 now): the experience pays. Guys, this is a sellers market. Negotiate, negotiate, negotiate. Repeat after me: They can't find someone else to do this job! If they think they can, then you don't want to work for the idiots anyway.
(This posting is anonymous to protect the innocent.)
7$ an hour. ;)
For unix systems administration and shell scripting.
*grin* they sure can rip you off when you don't have your degree yet, ne?
- Rei
If you work in Stockholm, Gothenburg or Malmo you
can expect to make about 40-50 K USD/year.
SysAdmin pays less than a fancy "web designer" title.
> for a decent house. In other part of the world you will get lower salary, but the cost
> of life is much lower. So in fact you can make a better living elsewhere.
> Now to answer your question, in Montreal the mean salary for someone who is just out of
> the University is 40,000$CAN.
But there, you can buy a house 20 minutes by foot from downtown for less than $150,000.
And if you don't mind suburbia, that amount will get you a pretty big house... So, you get plenty of small change left to go to all of those restaurants (and the bars close at 3 in the morning, too!)...
I've been working as a programmer for 16 years now. The past 6 years have been as a Windows C++/MFC developer (I know, I know... sacrilege).
My current salary is $83,000/yr in Dallas, TX. I also get bonuses, typically, based on our firm's performance, and those are usually around $6,000.
The hours we work are quite easy -- get in around 9:30, leave about 5:30, 1 - 1.5 hours for lunch. Of course, we don't balk at putting whatever hours are needed to get things done on time, to spec, within budget, etc. But, thus far, we just about never do any deathmarches.
This salary is in combination with full family health coverage, insurance, and 401k.
Hope this helps.
you can expect to make about the same as in the US, but expect to pay higher taxes, and many social security type insurances are mandatory.
Anywhere in the range of 20K to 50K per year
I reckon about 14,000GBP (20,000 USD) for a grad in the country. A decent banking IT contractor in London gets 100,000 GBP (150,000 USD). London is a bit more expensive than New York though. Check out http://www.jobserve.com/ for jobs in the UK.
Fresh out of school with a Masters in EE, working at a startup in Boston. I'm on the real low end of my pay scale here at $50K/yr and no benefits, but in return I do cutting-edge R&D under Linux.
The more conventional offers I was looking at were more like $60K/yr and stock options, health, 401K...
It's not as bad as Belgium either. I'm British, but working as a Consultant in Belgium and trust me the tax system over here is substantially worse than the UK.
Almost exactly half of what I earn goes to the taxman!!!
I get around $120k pa in Central London with 1 months paid holiday & training... Similar experience, 3 1/2 years pro webmaster.
Well, in MN my company starts programers at just over $40k a year. Goes up from their, with expirence you can get over 100k/year. We also have a reputation of being a cheap with paying companies, but somehow have managed to attract some top notch people so that some of us have refused offers for more money just because we would have to (pick which is more improtant) leave good co-workers behind, or work with something other then windows. Most of us are well aware that we can make more money though we are not sure it is worth it.
In other parts of the country the pay is different. I know one person who left to Silicon Valley for double the pay, and said that due to cost of living the true pay is the same.
In MN we have the problem that we are not on the coast, so big shots are never in the area, they may fly overhead, but they never stop so they never see us. Just as well as it keeps the population down, but we do miss some opertunities that way.
average is 45k. I make 50k with no college. started this job with Zero experience at 45k still have less than one yr exp.
this is consistent for VB, Java, add $$ for C++.
As Programmer/Analyst I was at $60,000. The market here tops out around $65k for sysadmins and $75k-80k for coders. As an independant contractor, I'm making closer to $90,000. High-school dropout, 5 years sysadmin/programming experience. The money's not great, but the cost of living here is quite low.
In Sydney Australia I started on $35,000 which is about 25,000 US dollars. Good developers would get 80-100 (66000 USD) pa. Cost of living is cheap and the living is good!!
in arkansas, you're more likely to make good pay at mcdonalds. its really quite a joke.
unless you work FOR the university, you're peak income is probably 30K. and thats if you're doing everything including turning the water into wine at dinner.
pennyless in arkansas
Well considering the fact that just a few miles north we get as starting salary $56,900.00 with a cap of $64,550.00 and only serve 60 users and 4 remote offices with fiber links (full control of what we buy and use! no managers saying we like cisco's logo. use that stuff) yes you are getting screwed.. I would start looking for better and then secure an offer that is solid then tell the boss "meet the salary or I am gone." your boss knows that he is under paying you.
(USD per month, average 2/99)
i mus-taulukko.html
coders $2410
education/consulting $3571
computer import $4428
sofware company $3151
computer analyst $3035
management $3866
Reduce 50% if no experience at all
Add 50% if exp > 20 yr.
Source in Finnish: http://www.tietoviikko.com/tutkimukset/palkkatutk
Well, I know I'm not being paid enough at fl 3500 gross a month, but I have a reasonably cool job, working 36-hour weeks, and haven't finished college yet. If I were to have my degree and started doing some true IT I'd probably be looking at at least fl 5000 a month. And then it goes uphill, a few percent a year usually. Taxes are 37.5 % over the first 40000 (or so) guilders a year, 50 % over the following 20000 (or so) and 60% over the rest of your income. (Oh, use http://www.x-rates.com/ if you're monetarily handicapped... ;))
Ireland the rates certainly start at about £17k ($24k) a year. But tax and cost of living are high is high (not as high as most of europe though) and drink and tobacco are heavily taxed (As of march 2000, 20 Marlborough will cost about 6 or 7 dollars)
Ireland the rates certainly start at about £17k ($24k) a year. But tax and cost of living are high is(not as high as most of europe though) and drink and tobacco are heavily taxed (As of march 2000, 20 Marlborough will cost about 6 or 7 dollars)
As with many others, I'm posting as AC due to company policy on salary disclosure.
I'm the web developer at a marketing company in Northern Illinois. I'm responsible for any and all HTML coding and perl scripting. I also do some small amount of tech support within the company and am responsible for setting up new machines with NT (I know, I know) when they come in.
I make $38k, up from $30k when I started a year and a half ago. I have no formal education (dropped out of high-school) and I'm soon to be 21.
There's an ongoing salary survey and a contractor/consultant hourly rate survey at http://www.realrates.com/
Some folks who know SAP and PeopleSoft are making in excess of $150/hr in the bigger markets like Chicago.
Me? I just landed a 3 month gig at $125/hr in Texas as a software architect.
I feel fortunate -- I'm going to save my pennies while the market's still hot.
I started out around 2 years ago making 30k and working like a dog right out of college. I was doing web programming and mainframe work for a large retail company that was very unstable and I shortly became the lead programmer. Once I had a decent amount of experience (after about a year) I pushed hard and my salary was boosted to 40k. A few months back I left to join a small consulting company and am making 45k.
The moral of this story? Don't worry if you end up taking a low paying crap job to start off with. If you work hard your worth is going to increase exponentially with your experience level. The important thing to remember is that we are the valuable commodity right now. Renegoitate often and don't be afraid to leave if your needs aren't being met.
i have 2 yrs experience, all three tiers(front,middle and back end). i live in silicon valley; i make $70k, and a shit-load of stock. i could EASILY make more immediately if i job-hopped or worked as a contractor. ....but did i mention that i cant afford to buy a house here? :)
Don't forget to consider benefits in addition to salary. I just took a $7k/year pay cut to work for a company with better benefits. You don't pay taxes on most benefits!!!
I just started last week as the sysadmin for a 3 year old DSP designer in North Carolina. I'm pulling about double what you're making plus benefits and stock options. I have no formal education and five years in high school. My professional background is about 5 years of NT network design and less than two years of playing with Linux on the side. I am responsible for Solaris server farms in three states, plus the enterprise level NT domain infrastructure. If I can do that with no education and very little UNIX background, you should be able to do a lot better than you are now. I don't know Ohio but assuming the cost of living is lower than North Carolina, you shouldn't settle for anything less than 50K with benefits.
I am in the Dallas market right now as a Java coder and it is booming.
I am salried at 85k with stock options and quarterly bonuses. I also do contracting on the side and charge $150 an hour it. The kicker, I am only a year out of school.
What makes me wonder is seeing these other salries that are being posted, they seem really low. A company's job is to bring you in at the lowest amount they can get away with. But if you play the game well you can obtain a decent package for yourself.
"Software engineers are the doctors of the 90's"
My experience has been that starting off with a small company can be a really good way to go. A friend of mine who graduated the same year I did is started working for a big corporation in town and I went to work for an Internet start up. I ended up starting at $30K and he started at $40K, but now (2.5 years later) he's had one small raise where as I've been promoted, make $60K/year and actually have responsibility for planning and implementing projects.
Small companies are prone to instability, but if you are young you can afford a little instability, and it gives you a chance to develop your talents in many areas very rapidly. If you take a big corporate job you end up being something like "Jr. Programmer Level I" with a very defined role, and very limited promotion possibilities due to all the beaurocracy and rules.
Graduate salaries in IT were around £16-£20K when I graduated (early 90's), so I'm suprised that you say that they're still at that level. A Java developer in London (especially in the City) can earn around £2000 a week as a contractor.
I am a software developer-contractor with $100/hour rate. I am toying with the idea of spending summer in UK, is it possible to get 3-4mo contract there ? If yes, what kind of rate can I expect ?
I used to be responsible for information security and abuse handling for a 1million+ member ISP in southern California. (This should be an easy guess since there really is only 1 major ISP in California) I was so underpaid it was pathetic. I finally figured out that my employer had no incentive to pay me more because they had no competition for my employment. There really was no other place I could go in that area to continue the skill sets that I had built. So I moved to the most up-tight / anal place in America. Northern Virginia! The competition for employment here is so fierce that even Pizza Hut has to do radio ad's to get employees. Companies generally take better care of their employees here because they cannot afford to lose technically skilled people to their competitors (which are just down the street.) Granted all the women here are homely Chelsy Clinton types compared to the California girls I'm used to.... but what the hell,... I can get that Beamer I always wanted ;) cheers!
Thinking about working in Brussels. I make $56k in Chicago suburbs w/benefits. Should I expect an increase or decrease in salary/quality of life?
I can verify what lyonsj is saying. I've been working for an Ohio school for ten years, and that's about what I make.
"Software engineers are the doctors of the 90s"
:)
I've often wondered if we programmer drones were getting up there with the doctors and the lawyers. But you know, I don't think we are. Doctors can charge high fees for surgery. We can only charge an hourly rate. Lawyers can collect 1/3 of law suit settlements. We only have our hourly rate.
So, unless something changes and your business is selling a product or ads on a web site or you have many consultants working for you, we're not quite doctors or lawyers yet
Expect anywhere between $27-$36 for C/HTML/CGI and some DB skills. The fringe benefits come in the form of living in the most exciting city in the Western World. The chicas are fenomenal.
your getting screwed.....
A salary is only as important as what you can do with it. Basically, in another country, the cost of living may be significantly higher or lower than in the US. So if in Europe you make half the money you could make in the US, but everything costs a third as much (this is obviously an exaggeration), you are better off.
Yeah a a greeat way to get fucked. Been reading more then one article about how folks got hosed on the stock option thing, usually one of three ways:
1) Venture capitalists come in and have an agreement which superceeds employee stock options.
For example, a revised agreement prohibiting employees from selling stock within the first 120 days after an IPO, while the venture capitalists can while the time away.
2)Undisclosed option distributions for employees vs owners/managers. If your getting 1 stock option for every 10,000 the upper level guys get, it ain't worth much.
3)Your employer sells out to another company, he gets rich you get far far less then the big boys.
Now you still may be able to buy that house or car you wanted so bad even if one of these happens. But don't forsake a good salary on the promise of being a millionaire for a few stock options. Too many startups fail and fail miserable while burning out thier employees on the promise of big bux.
Three years experience in bleeding edge tech web s'ware engineering; earning equiv. of USD 35,000.00 and rising.
Male 2 yrs college no degree started at 19,200/yr 2.5 yrs later 45,000/yr Technical skills: Webmaster Solaris Admin 4GL, Shell, Perl Sendmail, DNS, Firewall 1 And I still think I should be getting at least 60-65
Ok. I am severely underpaid. Same education, more experience (4 going on 5 years experience web development). Fairly strong Java, extremely strong Cold Fusion, JavaScript, etc... And I'm getting paid 45,000 Canadian. (Stock options, and full benefits though)
It's also pretty cheap to live in Ottawa, though.
2 yrs college no degree
started at 19,200/yr
2.5 yrs later 45,000/yr
Technical skills:
Webmaster
Solaris Admin
4GL, Shell, Perl
Sendmail, DNS, Firewall 1 And I still think I should be getting at least 60-65
I was recently trying to find out about wages and work environment in net-related jobs while i was there and was very dissapointed with what i found. They are of course far behind in pc and net saturation but catching up. But the people I spoke to gave me a very distressing picture of the current state of net programmers. Could anyone who knows something more of this post some encouraging news.
A bit off topic, but how would one go about finding a job overseas? I am on the network support/admin side of things, with experience working in our companys mexico offices. I speak/read/write fluent serbo-croatian, and I think it would be the bomb to work in a foriegn country while I'm still young and commitment free. Monster, job.com and others seem ok, but are there any specialized engines or services for international job hunting?
Unix admin, fair bit of Perl programming, ~4 years experience, no proper college education == upper 40k range.
Big money items around here include Oracle (which I want to learn more of) and Lotus Notes (which I can't stand, but will get you six figures in a heartbeat).
This is pretty relevant... there was a website that I've been to before that lets you compare the cost-of-living in a certain area (i.e. by zip) and see what your equivalent salary would be. Unfortunately I can't find the website. Anybody know of the place? Thanks.
> I am a software developer-contractor with $100/hour rate. I am toying with the idea of spending summer in UK, is it possible to get 3-4mo contract there ?
Definitely
> If yes, what kind of rate can I expect ?
Talk to one of the agencies or look up one of the trade rags:
http://www.computerweekly.co.uk see JobFinder section
http://www.jobworld.co.uk
or mailing lists:
http://www.jobserve.co.uk
The contracting market comes and goes - you might want to secure something before coming over here. I WAS contracting in London, earning 350 pounds for an 8 hour day. Being a geekgirl, and not too adept at bargaining skills - contracting here is 99% talking the talk - what I like to call "All mouth and no trousers" :) - the blokes in my team doing THE SAME JOB (by which I mean EXACTLY the same job) commanded daily rates of 475. Who me, bitter?
... you just have to be able to use phrases like "adding value", "gameplan", and "moving the goalposts" a lot. Easy peasy lemon squeezy :)
Anyhow, I have now accepted a permanent position here, as the contracting market went tits-up a few months ago, and that is 60 500 pounds a year. Which is cool, as I do not have to run a limited company with all of its adminitrative overheads to funnel my contracting charges.
Charges vary wildly throughout England, but presumably you do not want to be told where to go to earn the least... go Investment Banking, and go London. The stress is WAY higher, but it is a much more vibrant and demanding environment, with cooler technology, and more go-getters... depends what you are looking for. Oh yeah - Bandy the word "project managemer" around, and you'll look at around a thousand pounds a day, with less work (see: pointy-haired boss)
I'm a recent graduate, Apparently entry level positions start around 32-35KCDN. Except i havent seen any entry level positions recently, at least that want to reply to my resume. So i'm working my ass off, overnight at a damn factory for 11.50 an hour!
I work for a small firm specialising in internet applications as a developer/system designer/consultant (read: if I can do, I'll do it). Hours are 40hr/wk (flexible) plus 25 days/yr vacation. No other benefits (except for working in a suit-free environment for a boss who's an even sharper coder than I am *grin*).
(a lot of people might consider it easier on the psyche to live here than in a booming hi-tech city, and who knows how to put a dollar value on that?
)
Yadda, yadda.
Show us the Green.
I work at an ISP. I develop web sites from scratch in Perl. I maintain at least 10 FreeBSD/Linux Servers (along with others) and I've recently been given control of 2 NT Servers.
The ISP is successful but I'm not worth all that much to the company itself because they have no real need for what I am qualified for, or if they do, they have at least 3 other people who can fill in my job if I am lost (albeit, difficultly).
I am a "Master C Programmer" according to TekMetrics (haha) and I can hold my own in Perl. I don't even make enough to live on my own in NYC even if I tried living paycheck to paycheck with no car.
I -almost- got a job making $75k/year but the deal fell through because of bureacracy.
Pretty disgusting wouldn't you say?
I'd LOVE to talk: defile@nyct.net
I've noticed lots of people putting 'free' health care in non-US countries as a bonus. In general, you're paying much higher taxes there. For instance, I'm paying 33% in taxes here in the US. In countries with socialized medicine, it's closer to 50% - but even if it's only 10% for the health care, that's US$400 per month for me. For that, I can get on about the best health plan there is in the US, and aside from that, any salaried job at a tech firm is going to provide free medical - if they don't, go someplace else.
As far as salary, if you're even half-way competent, you can get US$40k starting in the Washington, DC area. The guy from the Ohio Valley should definitely look for a new job. 5 years of SysAdmin experience would get you US$70k+ here. I'm getting mid-50s for maintaining legacy MS-DOS apps, fer crying out loud. (Don't ask - I'm having fun.)
Of course, with a starting salary, you would be either renting or buying way out in the suburbs - housing is not cheap here. But guess what - the Smithsonian is completely free - free I tell you...
As an aside, if you're in the US, start putting money in 401K's and the like early. You might not be thinking about retiring right now, but once you've been working for 10 years, retirement at 50 can look pretty sweet! After that, you can just consult whenever you feel like it.
Posting anonymously. For some reason, there's a big taboo about disclosing your salary in public, isn't there? Wonder what that's all about.
With your certifications and experience, your company is most likely giving your manager a $50,000 bonus for keeping your salary down to such a sad, sad level. Give me a email at thecathedral@NOSPAM.hotmail.com (get rid of the NOSPAM...) and I'll put you in touch with some headhunters that have helped me out in the past (six figure salaries by the time I was 23). In the mean time, I would consider asking for a $40,000 a year raise. Good luck. - Cathedral
Eh ?
If you go to Holland, you'll get similar rates to the UK on contract but you get a whole pile of tax write offs (35% of the salary is tax free for starters)
when I started I had three years of my CS degree completed.
I started at 40,000.
Now, two years latter I have 4 classes left.
I currently make 54,000.
I am also currently looking into changing jobs. I have yet to look at anything under 65,000... Not to bad for a 23 year old kid with no degree...
I think most of this has to do with the Boston area's lack of enough talent and the cost of living here...
My current company would be classified as a large company.(I think there are 250,000 of us world wide)
The financial industry in large cities (Chicago, New York) will frequently pay system administrators in excess of $100,000 per year. I make much more than this, and know several others who do too. But, the company you work for could go under, be bought out, or have its head traders retire from one month to the next (all these have happened to me).
Shigoto ga "sucks" desu yo! Watashi wa netai desu!
Grad student, 1 year after university - earning 20k+ as a sysadmin/web developer, SE England. Unfortunatly, the cost of mortgages/rent/tax/etc means I only have about £200 for food/beer/other per month.
I am making around $50K (plus Stock Options, decent benefits, and about $7500 worth of bonuses each year (because I work hard... it doesn't come with the job automatically)). I admin three database servers (one informix, one mysql, one postgres) about 10-15 web servers, and around 300 user machines. In addition, I code UNIX applications, write HTML and CGI, am considered one of the company's PERL wizards, deal with tech support calls from our users (Digital UNIX), maintain several key applications in our department, and various other assorted tasks. I have 1.5 years of college (no degree) about 7 yrs UNIX exp. (5 commercial), and about 16 yrs of programming exp. (5 commercial). I work in DFW, TX for a large corporation. Do you think I could do better in the houston area (or elsewhere)? I am always up for a move. =)
I am SO glad this is finally being discussed. Actually, after reading some accounts, I don't feel so bad now. Im a sys admin working in a variety of environments with about 3 years experience just out of NYC. I started at 42k and went to 50k after a year. Hopefully I will go to 58k once my second year comes up. It includes 401k and health, but not much else. The work is light though (there are other admins here to share the work), with a guaranteed 40-hour work week and the ability to work from home every now and then. Does this sound reasonable to you folks out there in this area (both field and location)?
Go on some interviews, see what they will offer,
and then negotiate. No boss is going to just go
out of their way and give you a huge raise.
Of course, make sure to start out by letting them
know that you like the company and all that,
which must be true or you would already have left,
and then go into the salary talk.
It's tough to do but hey that's life... until
there is a Network Administrator's Union you'll
have to do this kind of stuff on your own.
Mark
The location cost calculation on the MSN page shows a 37% premium for renting in Silly Valley and 63% premium for buying a house compared to national average.
2 years as a web master at UofM, started at $30k, now up to $32k by mere "cost of living increases". Been using www since Mosaic beta, hoping to get an upgrade to minimum University wage standards around $40k. Read the sad story here.
I wouldn't agree. I've moved from London to Amsterdam, and it is much cheaper to live here. OK, car tax costs more, but my apartment is much bigger than my one in the UK, close to the city centre and is cheaper. Food, going out, travel, hell, pretty much everything, is cheaper.
Plus, when you add up all the tax breaks, 25 days leave minimum per year, unlimited sick leave on full pay, it adds up to being much cheaper. Permie jobs often get cars, pensions, etc. etc.
I have 3 years experience, MCSE+I, a few other lesser certs, VERY LITTLE END-LOSER INTERACTION, and I work in the Bay Area, California: $72,000.
I'm looking to get into systems admin in healthcare in the Seattle area. Anyone know if the wages are higher or lower than the industry norm for this sort of thing? for the record I have 8 years VMS admin, 7 years Unix admin and a degree
Atlanta is the Los Angeles of the South.
The people are fake, they are not friendly. Socially, most men are gay and the women are workaholics.
Not that great of a situation to me. Even with 65k/year
I have several friends who right out of college landed $60-70k/year jobs with CS degrees, although its rare in the Northeast.
The northeast is sort of a foreign country. Bandwidth is nonexistent unless you are in Boston or VERY close to New York. There are no POPs around.
Jan 1996 - right out of college, moved to Detroit and got a job as a junior unix sysadmin - 38k to start
Jan 1997 - moved to North Carolina - paid 45k to start, raised to 50k within 6 months
May 1998 - moved back to Central Ohio - 55k to start
Present - promoted to senior level (I run the shop) and currently paid $66k
I was recently offered (and turned down) a job as a consultant for $75k base plus utilization bonuses. If you are talented, get the tough projects done on time and budget, and make the boss look good, it's easy to get the higher salaries. Your average unix monkey in Central Ohio should be able to get $50k.
Good luck to ya.
In the Province of Quebec, it's about 32-40K CDN for someone out of university. Of course, the closer you get to Montreal, the higher it gets. It's small wonder we have such a "brain drain" here.
Yes, Canada is a big place. Here in Saskatoon I make 34K and think I'm better off than people I know making 45K living in Toronto or Vancouver doing the same thing I do (Perl/CGI - not quite done a degree).
I started in the DC area (which includes DC, southern MD, and northern VA, by the way) in 1997 at about $46 or $47K/year. I had a MS degree in CS, and the job involved R&D prototyping on UNIX. My 2-bedroom 1-bath with laundry apartment costs about $850 a month. You can get a 30-year-old 3-bedroom house for about $200K in the suburbs here. A new 4-bedroom house will cost you around $300K.
Good luck to all you job seekers out there...
(Posted anonymously due to excessive paranoia...)
I currently make ~26k plus benefits in the Eastern US working with ASP, perl, HTML, Oracle, SQL server, admin of several Linux servers, software designer, etc. I am currently a contractor, soon to be hired by this company (with a unknown raise forthcoming). Not bad you might say, but the problem is that I have to commute almost an hour each way and I can't afford to move closer (not sure I'd want to for this job anyway). My dream job is to never have to leave the house and rake in the big bucks with some telecommuting job in html or coding or something. :) Does anyone have any experience in the telecommuter field? What about part-time on the side work (telecommuting) while you are still working full time at a real job? Is that allowed or would most companies frown on that sort of thing.. or would they even have to know about it? I'm basically a newbie in the job market.. 1.5 years experience, a year of college, no degree, fairly good resume though. I know I am worth more than 26K, I just don't know how to ask for it, since I don't have much experience or a fat degree on my side. Any advice? -AC for obvious reasons, but a regular /.er :)
It's all about n-e-g-o-t-i-a-t-i-o-n. I got about $50/hr for doing SAP (technical) stuff in the U.S., only $25/hr in Europe. Experience: 2.5 years in the industry, 3 years of college completed, really good at what I'm doing. Guess where I will be working after graduating?? Fuck Socialism. Posting anonymously, since I don't like the idea of IRS being after me.
Here at the University of Minnesota I hear of people getting starting offers of $48k - $50k plus stock options and stuff.
Most of the regular techs around here get between 9-13/hr. Without certifications closer to 9/hr. But alot of people i know who are certified or have a degree are consistantly starting at 40-50k. I don't have any of my certifications, and i'm going to school for computer animation, but i still managed to get a tech/admin job for 40k a year.
I started out as a UNIX admin and my job is being shaped towards Programmer. I'm basically "starting" the Programming department here which could promise a better salary based on the number of sites I maintain.
I would be more valuable if 3 other employees were gone, but that won't happen soon. This IS a cool place to work nonetheless.
I almost got a job as a Linux admin making 75k/year but the deal fell through because of bureacracy.
I'd LOVE to talk.
defile@nyct.net
I'm from Sweden and I've got a MSEE (the former post talks about Civil Engineering, it's a common misconception because MS is called "civilingenjoer" in Sweden).
I'm moving to the Valley in 3 weeks time making $60k + stock options in a startup that manufactures microwave products. My job will mostly be programming, though.
In my experience only very few people make 40-50k a year in Sweden. Also remember that living expenses are extremely high and that you end up paying close to 50% tax on your income. Oh, I forgot: the VAT is 25%.
DO NOT MOVE TO SWEDEN EXPECTING TO GET PAID WELL!
I'm out of this socialist shithole and I'm not looking back.
Harakiri? Impossible!
With those credentials, you should pack up and immediately head on down to D/FW or Houston Texas. You should be able to find a job making at least double or more than that within a couple of weeks here. Living expenses aren't all that bad either but the traffic does suck horribly. I'll bet you're probably working for TFN in Cincinnati, eh? I once did some contract work for those bozos a few years ago. I made a good bit of $$$ for my gig, but the way their regular employees were treated reminds me of the Dilbert comic strip.
Yikes. I'm here in the middle of nowhere of US (Illinois, not Chicago), not a big tech-town or anything, a modest population 150,000 or so. Cost of living isn't that much. Anyway I ran out of money for college, and I came to despise school :), so I jumped right into the workforce. My first real job I got was installing Windows and telling people they're computer isn't working because the monitor isn't on. Now, to me, any schmoe off the streets could handle this. I didn't figure the industry paid much for such simple work, so I wound up with $27k US. This was tons of money to a 21yr old kid, I had been living off $500 or so a month in college. :) Come to find out, the other guys there were making $40k-50k or more. Since I low-balled myself, the company refused to give me anything more than modest increases at yearly reviews ($6-8k), similar to what others got, not the $20k I wanted to put me on par since well, I was the smartest one there. ;) I wasn't the lowest paid guy there, but one of the lowest. The other talent in this place isn't fancy college grads (for the most part, there's one with a masters in History and another with a non-computer degree), there's 40+ yr old women doing this, others with no college at all, etc.
:)
In the end I left and now make plenty more doing Linux work. I'm probably still low-balling myself, who knows, but I'm now much happier now. No more blue screens except for kscreensaver. No longer am I living paycheck-to-paycheck, or needing to cut back at the end of the month to make rent. My point was well, since everyone says England has a much higher cost of living, I'd hate to have to live off the 21-27k US you quote. Viva the USA!
The same applies in NL (and most of the rest of Europe/Australia/NZ) too - you will also get employer paid health insurance so you can have luxury (private room, a la carte menu etc) care at whatever private institution you desire. You could also go to a public hospital if you want/need. You have a choice. The standard of public health care is very high.
If you're off work for two years because of an accident, the employer pays you first year, then the state pays from then until you are able to return to work.
Sandyford Industrial Estate - you wouldn't be a Microserf by any chance?
I make $40K US. I setup and babysit email servers and do minor network stuff. I also research software that my company might use. I have excellent benefits. I have been working in the industry since late '95 (half of that basically as helpdesk), and in this position for a year and a half.
I'm there! know of any places willing to relocate me? Ich sprechen wenig deutsche.
I live about 2 hours north of Toronto and work for a fairly large company. Two years out of college, the pay is about $46,000/yr. This is a salaried position. However, overtime IS paid at "time and a half". The benefit program is quite extensive, including profit sharing and a dental/medical package second to none. Taxes in Canada are fairly steap also(Expect to pay close to 30%). On the up side, I just recently bought a new(5 years old, 1850 sq. ft house with 1/2 acre lot for under $125,000. Try doing that in Toronto or Silicon Valley! Am I content? You bet!
I knew my lack of knowledge would come in handy! Woohoo!
I'm a Webmaster/Graphic Designer/ Systems Administrator for a 10 person Ad agency in Northeast PA. I'm responsible for all of our Web design from concept to completion (one man web department) I scan (for final) every picture in every brochure and ad, I do all of our digital imaging, I set up, manage and troubleshoot every computer in the office (10 Macs, 2 PCs) and I do illustrations when needed. My Pay? $23K Gross. The cost of living here isn't bad, but $23K is still next to nothing.
(Posted as AC for job security) I finished school in 95, at $32k I now make $95k for c++/java, and live on the east coast. People coming w/1 year exp want to make $70k. They're not usually worth it, but they see the market going crazy and ask for it. They'll usually get it. It's amazing what is paid for such little talent. (Myself included? Don't know, but I don't think so.) Software design is not easy. Hacking a few lines of Perl or Java, or reading teach yourself c++ in 24 hours does not make you worth alot of money. You need to understand design, distributed systems and software mgmnt. AC
200K ff is the annual salary for this female coder in france I think its about the same as for a beginner - hard to tell here because there's an economic crunch and all salaries stay near the bottom I took a 60% pay cut from my previous job in the northwest US. Cost of living is the same, taxes are about the same percentage, although there are more hidden ones here, and more social advantages as well. Lifestyle is not radically different from the US, at least not on the surface...
Keep in mind the cost of living in houston is slightly less than Dallas. Just a thought if you start comparing offers.
Actually I believe you are thinking of U.S. regulations prohibiting price fixing (companies making commitments with their competitors not to charge less than $x, etc). Does that include salaries-- I don't think so. Does that include private businesses/contractors-- I don't know. I have heard anecdotal stories of legal charges brought on doctors for simply discussing fees over dinner.
Please note along with being an AC, I am also not a lawyer so take my unlawyerly opinions as just that.
A certain world famous telecommunications firm in the Nations Capital pays a starting salary of almost $37K for an internship. Thats for someone with 3 years of university under there belt, but not yet finished. Thats beats waiting tables.........
Vancouver, BC, as a non-educated, self-taught systems administrator I'm pulling in a 'measly' $41K. I say measly coz in Vancouver a 1-room (I mean it, ONE ROOM) apartment can fetch $500 a month. Shut up you Torontonians. I can hear you, but I can't see you ... do something about that smog will ya?
..and they wonder why I moved to California?!!
This sounds about right to me.
:-)
:-)
I'm pulling in about SEK18.000 a month right now and have 4 years Project Management and programming experience within the Web Design industry.
In the UK I was making 3 times this!!
Hmmmm. Still, Sweden is a beautiful country to live in and I would much rather be here than in London. I guess that quality of life counts for a lot too
(Hmm, my first ever anonymous coward post - not that there can be that many people here who fit the description above
Without giving too much away, let me tell you this. I was hired out of college with about two years of internships, and a wide body of knowledge (oh, and an MIS degree). I was hired in programming COBOL (hey, that's about to change), JCL, and SAS for mid-forties, plus about 10% or so in variable bonus. Hook up with IBM. You can submit a resume online at www.ibm.com. Tell 'em the Anonymous Coward sent ya! P.S. They're in 164 countries.....
seen this grad-school comment in couple of posts now, and i really have no idea what this is. so, undergraduate is what: lower college degree? or anyone who's graduated from a polytechnic or what? Bachelor in Engineering wouldn't be considered an undergraduate?-) -- thinking about hopping over to polytechnic..
MCSE,MCT,A+ in WA state, no degree. Work as independent consultant. I focus on primarily on MS products. I also work as a contract trainer for MCSE/CompTIA training centers. Upside $60K-$100K per year. Downside no benefits, travel (nowhere interesting), no security and get the shaft on taxes.
Reality check? Those sound like numbers your school and professors feed to you. They want to make the field sound better than it really is, even if they have to lie. How else will they keep you in CS classes that are often a waste of time? I suggest you actually look for a job, before commenting on starting pay. Most of the programming jobs I found around Cincy paid 18K - 22K. 40K starting-out? Yeah, maybe with a technical degree like engineering from a good school.
Folks, there's a reason the Valley is expensive...
I work for the Federal government in Ottawa and my starting salary out of University was in the $30K range. That was after working part time as a student and then getting a part time CS-1(entry level Computer Services). It has been six months after I started(full-time) and I'm now making $38K as a database administrator(no longer a CS too!). Previously I was doing System/Application Admin work. Once this 6 month contract is done I'll be looking for a real job. I hate working term positions but I wanted the experience. As far as pay is concerned I wanted $40K fresh out of University but now I'm looking for $45K+. I also realize that $40K is low but I don't have a Comp Sci degree. I think working in Montreal would be great too. Except I don't speak French.
I work in the North (Midlands) of England and have been out ot University one year ... I get £28k.
So whoever claims the north is less well paid better check again :)
R.What?!? Toronto's not the centre of the universe? Damn... there goes years of schooling out the window.
Sellers market, baby.
I've just been offered a position doing Sys Admin in NYC for $90,000, and looking at some of the surveys it looks an OK figure - anyone care to comment. Anyone know an easy way to get a H1/B visa???
I've just been offered a position doing Sys Admin in NYC for $90,000, and looking at some of the
surveys it looks an OK figure - anyone care to comment.
Anyone know an easy way to get a H1/B visa???
Come on now, was it your life's calling to run backups & set up servers.. There's cooler work out there, and guess what, it doesnt pay as well, and a lot of the time a degree helps if you're looking at real-live programming
Um...try 50k out of school, 75 w/in 1 year, 100+ inside of two years. But that's the valley for ya. With the right skill set - unix, OO (C++/Java are equally good these days), the ability to cruise a 70-hour work week.
US sales tax is buy state, varies four to nine percent. (there is no VAT) US property tax is by county, property valuation, and varies. Most fees apply at the business level and their are now hearth taxes. US health care is heavily subsidized for people earning less than or close to the US GOVT established poverty line (anually adjusted for inflation) If you are poor,free outpatient care can be found. You can legally brew your own beer, for your family's use. Their are no internal passports. If you do your research, you can live very well in the US at a supprisingly low cost.
Dropout? I never would have guess, what with misspellings galore. How about some night classes?
Dropout? I never would have guessed, what with misspellings galore. How about some night classes?
Im currently a systems admin / general technical guy for a reasonably large firm in N.Ireland. (we just moved to new premises, 450+ staff). ok, Im good at what I do, I work minor miracles on the hardware side of things and do reasonable admin work. I look after the (l)users reasonably well and have put on extra training for several of them after hours. Ive also had to become more than familiar with nearly all MS operating systems and applications, as well as others like Notes, tesseract and various other widgety things. thing is, Im paid £14k pa, my monthly take home hovers around the 900 mark, IF Im lucky. I have a degree in Comp Sci (as well as an HnD/Diploma) 4+ years experience out of Uni and 15 years 'computer' experience (all the way up from hand building a spectrum zx while my fingers were still deft enough to solder). I personally think Im being screwed over but theres sod all 'better' work here in N.Ireland. Im tired of the taxes, Im tired of the net access costs (using £110+ a MONTH), Im sick of the bloody weather (raining or about to rain), Im sick to the eye teeth of the political/religious wrangling. To put it bluntly, I want out. So ./ readers in your HONEST opinion, should I put the head down and keep on keepin on. Or should I look west to the USA, where opportunity seems to abound. Im legally clean, dont smoke, dont drink (much), have no political/racial/ gender hangups. Help me out here, if I was to move, what could I expect to make and where should I look? I can be reached at darkseid AT captured DOT com if you can help me out at all. thanks for taking the time to read it (let alone reply) its appreciated . The underappreciated Evil Sys Admin Ds. (failing the above, darks eid@dial.pipex.com - remove the space in the name)
I'm in Denver and as a consultant was getting $66 of my $80 bill rate, and as an employee I'm making $97,000.
I'm a development dba...no pager!!
go talk with your boss (or someone else's boss)!!!
Good luck
It should also be noted that living in Munich is MUCH more pleasant than living in Essen!
:-)
Personally, dropped out of college, moved to the Valley, IT slave job at 40k, job hopped a year later to 55k. one more year hopped again on to 66k. Recently got raise to 75k. Yes, Im an NT flunkie, the work is cake, and I'm going to shoot myself soon.
I'm 20 years old, doing ColdFusion/HTML/SQL web development as a contractor for $20/hr in kansas, with no college degree but exceptional skills in those areas, plus a Solid knowlege of networking, unix/NT trouble shooting, etc.. I see openings for CF developers in the 60-100/hr range. Am I getting screwed? Should start looking for other offers? Or is this an acceptable pay rate for the area?
I'm 20 years old, doing ColdFusion/HTML/SQL web development as a contractor for $20/hr in kansas, with no college degree but exceptional skills in those areas, plus a Solid knowlege of networking, unix/NT troubleshooting, etc.. I see openings for CF developers in the 60-100/hr range. Am I getting screwed? Should start looking for other offers? Or is this an acceptable pay rate for the area?
Also, since moving to Vegas, I've *NEVER* had to parallel park. Back in L.A., parking space deathmatches were a way of life.
Sure it costs more to live here, but we don't talk funny, either. :) Don't you think its worth a little higher rent to live at the center of the digital revolution?
Well I nearly tripled my salary (29,000 UKP to $110,000+significant benefits) by moving from London to the Bay Area. There is a shortage of intelligent people in the Bay Area (maybe because American education - maybe because there are so many startups around here that the good people have been grabbed already) so if you have any brain cells whatsoever you're probably a lot better off working in the Bay Area than in London. The visa is piss easy to get if you have a degree. Everything costs much less in the Bay Area - s/UKP/\$/ to figure out prices in the US compared to those in the UK - apart from rent which is pretty damn steep. Basically if you move from London to the Bay Area you live like a king - except when you see how your American neighbour with an SUV, a car and an RV parked on the drive lives and you realise that you're not that well off after all. There's no such thing as popping out for a quick bevvy after work tho' :-(
Dropped out of high school after 10th grade. Began programming for money around 19 years old. (no not "consulting" bullshit. Honest to god C code salaried). Switched jobs every 2 years into more and more senior positions learning design, architecting etc as I went. But ALWAYS switched to something building on what I had been doing for past 2 years. Now 10-11 years later. 30 years old. Salaried at 110k. 10k bonus (2500 every 3 months). And stock options that are worth 6 figures. This market is a SELLERS market. And a degree doesn't mean SHIT if you've got the exp. I didn't waste my time on one. Anyone who isn't making 100k plus in engineering is either fresh out of school or too low self image/intelligence to build their way into it.
Sweet mother I should ask for a raise. Central WI, 4 years full-time (1.5 years part time before that) web development experience (Mostly Active Server Platform but some Java and Oracle), good design skills, even some project management experience...$50k US. Although when I was making slightly less than that, I got recruited by a BIG-name web-house in the bay and they only offered me $45k to be a lead developer. "We like to think of the work here as its own reward." They actually said that. I like to think of cash as its own reward, thank you very much. Bastards. -E
As a geek-of-all-trades in NS with a BA and one of those nifty ITI certificates (how was I to know then?) I'm making 30K with just over 20K after taxes. This is three years experience AND I underbid to get a job in my hometown. According to gov't figures 42 IT jobs will be created in network support in the province over the next five years and there will be over 400 people applying for each new job or opening. That's why only 3 others from my grad class stayed. I do VB, python, html, LISP, networking and a whole lot of support.
Lifestyle? if you want to get away from big cities but still have a taste of culture now and then stick to our big towns (Halifax in other words.)
The difference is salaries is not the only factor to consider when going over to the UK to work. I found most companies are willing to negotiate over salary if they really want you. The BIGGEST problem I found was getting a Work Permit. Most companies won't even attempt the process due to the hastle involved. Whereas Brits can come over to the US and Canada and get a job at a moments notice. Those of us who want to go over there are faced with tons of paperwork and months of waiting.
Contractor 2-3 times 150k?!? Say 1800 hours a year, this means at least 167 SFr/hour. Please correct me if I'm heavily underpayed, but my research so far showed that most contractors get paid between 90 and 130 Sfr/hour.
It seems that differences between fixed salaries and contractors are less here (compared with where I come from, the Netherlands).
Anyway it is a very nice country, only one problem: the work permits. In theory it is hard to get them and you can be thrown out of the country at any time. In practice, for jobs that are in demand (IT) you have no problem, probably (as long as the market remains as good as it is now).
I work in software development here in West Virginia.
:), responsible for capturing software requirements, documenting them, writing up user manuals and SOPs, and testing the product against the explicitly stated requirements. At that job, I was paid $38.5K per year.
I am not a programmer or a system/database administrator. I WAS a Senior Technical Writer (please, refrain from hissing
Recently I was promoted to a position that oversees all of the above (and a staff of 9), as well as Software CM and Software QA. I now make $45K. And I've been told by others in my field that I'm WAY underpaid. If I would make the 1.5 hour drive into suburban DC, I'd probably go up at least 50%.
I choose to stay for 2 reasons: I drive 10 minutes to work, and I work a 2 minute drive from my son's daycare. Quality of life is bigger than quantity of salary for me.
In other words, I really think you're getting screwed, especially since a glorified tech writer gets paid more. Polish up the resume and get out.
CS students in the co-op program tend to earn between CAD$21,000/annum (first work term) and CAD$41,000/annum (sixth work term) depending on the location, etc. And the best part... with all the tuition credit we get, our tax rate is nearly 0%!!! (mind you we only work for 4 or 8 months of the year)
I live in S.CA. you could make 3 times that, easy. Just don't tell anybody who is looking to hire you what you make. If you do tell them they'll only offer 10 - 20% increase.
You could call a headhunter, and get a contract that STARTS at 60$ hr, no problem.
I agree, there are a lot more things to consider. I'm still a student but I have lived in Canada, United States, United Kingdom, and Japan. Taxes and cost of living are quite different depending on where you live. In Japan, income tax is very low (about 10%) but the cost of living is obscene (somewhere between 4 to 8 times the cost of living in the US). The cost of living in Canada is about the same as the US but taxes are high (expect your income tax to be about 50%). Taxes in the UK are about the same as the US (if I remember correctly) and the cost of living is a bit more (somewhere between 50% and 100% more expensive for everyday things). You should definitely look in these things or you might do something like accept a $100kUS job in Japan and find out that your standard of living is about the same as if you earned $25kUS and lived in the States.
Here in Calgary, my company hires at about $40-$42k right out of university, plus benefits. Myself I have about 7 years experience and I pull in $64k plus about another $5-$10k in bonuses/overtime a year. The cost of living here is pretty good, an average house is about $160k, but as in all of Canada taxes take their bite. If you do contract work you'll make anywhere from $60/hr - $125/hr, depending on the job.
Wrong. Should The Bill of Rights always protect you even when it harms others? Even if they did, the first 10 amendments don't always protect us well from an overbearing congress. Look into antitrust laws. They are rather broad in scope. I was recently successfully sued, because a waiter at a local restaraunt overheard me talking about what I charge for consulting work with four other consultants. His father owned a company that was a competitor to mine. The ISP I own was slapped with a lawsuit from him about two weeks later. I found-out (the hard way) that my collecting information on the prices and output (lawyers term for how many hours I would decide to work) was "significant and express practise." Aside: I don't see how the AMA, the state bar associations, or most unions are exempt from this. Also, several discussions on the NANOG mailing list (and to a lesser extent on inet-access) have been squashed due to this concern.
(from what I learned the hard way) Anti-trust laws are meant to combat any means that suppress competition. It not only protects consumers from firms artificially raising prices (like Micros~1 or Standard Oil), but it also protects the people from workers artificially raising the indirect costs they pay for products. The example the judge gave was that in one town in KY, all 7 of the lawyers discussed their rates during a golf tournament. Over the next year, all 7 of the lawyers more than doubled their rates. A federal court found that the lawyers were guilty. In the case of comparing salaries or hourly charges, you are collusively planning with others to adjust your rates and output (time worked) based upon that information. That is illegal for an owner of a business, just as it is for a contractor or worker. The three main acts I kept hearing quoted to me by my lawyer are the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, Clayton Act of 1914, and the Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914.
In addition to the three main federal laws, there can be literally dozens of state laws that apply. Most states have a rather extensive UCC (Uniform Commercial Code, or its like) that deals with things such as fair business practises. You might not be breaking any federal laws, but (in my state anyway) could be liable for treble damages according to a state law (as I was, ouch!). Talk to a (good) laywer who has experience with this in your state.
I'm working in Edmonton, AB, doing web design (the usual HTML, javascript, dHTML schtick) , perl (both cgi and for internal utilities), db stuff, CF, PHP, yadda, yadda, one year professional experience, no formal training.
I make what I consider a decent wage - $33k. But then I know office asistants that make that. No beneifts of the usual kind, but I have enormous freedom. I get to decide what technologies to use on projects, work at home 90% of the time, and I like my coworkers. You try to figure out the monetary value.
Cost of living isn't bad, but it's not as cheap here as it used to be. (I saw someone say that you couldn't get an apt for less than Can$500 in Vancouver. I don't know where you'd find that, except maybe East Hastings (the bad part of town, in case the context wasn't clear)). Rent in Edmonton is $600-700 or so for a decent 1 or two bedroom. Buying a house (not that I'd know about this firsthand) you're looking at starting prices at $150k or so. The only downside is I live in Edmonton. Don't move here. It's boring and cold.
(posting anonymously 'cause I don't want my employer to know for sure that I'm pretty happy)
Agreed, the cost of living seems alot here in Finland compared to some other places... but is still cheaper than other most Nordic countries and London (especially). Dis-Advantages of working in Finland Kinda cold/dark for 6 months of the year. A bit hard to understand anything if you dont know the language :( Salary ain't too impressive. Espensive accommodation. Advantages of working in Finland Kinda OK/light for 6 months of the year. Most people *can* speak good english (if they want) Company sponsored Mobile Phone, Fast net connections. Some really pretty ladies, *everywhere* :) So... all in all, it's an interesting place to work.
In New England, the cost varies with the area. I had two companies laugh at a request of "high 40s, low 50s" fresh out of a good tech school (not MIT). I settled for mid fifites, working in cambridge. Most of my friends in the area get slightly lower salaries (48-50) outside of the city. Then again, if you really know what you're doing, your salary could start with a 7 before you're a year out of school if you company decides you're worth something. Go to a startup-ish place, thats where its at.
I'm a SysAdmin for a small software company (8 people) in Colorado. I have no certs, about 5 years of experience, and a BA (yes, Arts not Sciences) in Math. I minored in CS. I make $44K with good benefits and I can wear jeans to work. (I think I'm being seriously underpaid, but there are some issues of company and family loyalty that make me stay on.)
Seattle pays very good wages, much better than the midwest. I was working for the State and making 62K a year. Contractors are paid much better than that.
What tuition credit? I am a co-op student at Carleton and paid 27% tax per month while working during the co-op terms?
To give you an idea of salary ranges in the US: I interviewed extensively the spring of 97 and received a number of job offers in the US ranging from $36K to $49K. The low end of the spectrum going to the Defense Contractor types. The company that I work for is currently hiring new college grads in the low $50's US.
The bad points are the omnipresent rain and the eating habits: sandwiches at lunch, potatos for dinner. As I hate rain and put food above anything else, I am bound to move again soon. ;-)
You forget to mention one thing though. Dutch women. IMHO Dutch women are the friendliest in Europe!
Im' OK with this. Swiss is a great place to work! I'm 25, 2 years/exp and make 80kFRS (~53KUSD) / year + bonus. And more, there is not enough IT in Switzerland to fulfill the needs! You can find a job in days !
$40K is definitely low. I am Computer Science Class of '99 and the starting salary of most of my peers who stayed in Canada, are c$45-$55G/year.
Perhaps c$40K is for people who only have technical "degrees" (Devry, etc...)
Background: University of Connecticut B.S. in Computer Science and Engineering. Graduated December 1998. GPA 3.2 Major GPA 3.4 Won New England Scholar Award for year 1998 (3.5 or greater GPA for senior year (3.58 for spring 98 - 3.78 for fall 98). Worked a 6 month Co-Op my junior year (PL/SQL, html, javascript, Oracle). Worked a 3 month internship senior year (C++, Unigraphics). (UCONN is a HIGHLY regarded school in CT...best of the public colleges for CS...and competes with Yale (private colleges)..if not better). Didn't start applying for jobs until the beginning of June 99 (bad move to try and get a job DURING the summer!!!). Did some programming on the side for 6 months before I get my 1st "real" job (C++ Builder, Interbase). Well...the Co-Op wanted to hire me out of college...but they were close to where I went to school...not where I live when I'm not in school...so that was out of the question. The internship...I didn't want to work in Hartford (traffic) and they were part of United Technologies (Pratt & Whitney, Carrier, Otis, etc.) and I don't want to work for that, either. Thus, I went to my college and found 9 companies that were within a half-hour from where I live (not including Hartford). I sent my resume out. Interviewed with 4. Got letters saying they don't have any positions with 2. Didn't hear anything from the other 3. Now, when I was in college I was thinking of working with C++, Java, or both. Here were what the 4 companies that responded did: company 1) Worked with C++...but wanted to hire me for a position that involved Eifel. I would learn about Eifel and figure out how they could implement parts of their system in Eifel. company 2) Embedded software. Motorolla C and assembly. company 3) The one I am working for. Originally applied for their internet team (they use Edify), ended up on the AS/400 using Cool:2e (Synon). company 4) Microsoft. VB, Access, etc. Now...I know what you are thinking...Cool:2e???...I thought the same thing...but I just want to get my foot in the door. (Full benefits = health, dental, 401K etc.) Anyway...company 1. They offered $52,500 to start. Full benefits. company 2. Never got an exact number because I took company 3's offer...but when I asked, she said around $42-43,000 to start. Full benefits. company 3. Full benefits. $37,000/yr. Plus up to 10% of your salary for bonus every year. Full benefits. Put 6% of your salary into your 401K as long as you are also putting in 6%. FOUR weeks vacation (those extra 2 weeks mean a couple of thousand dollars to me). They have never went public, so they just created this program where they create this fictional stock...and you get bonuses based on the companies performance. New program...you won't see money for 3 years. company 4. Took job at company 3 before they gave me an offer...but it sounded like around 42-43,000 a year. So...around here in CT...you can expect low 40's to start. With Company 1 being a huge exception!!! Now..the big question..."why didn't you take company 1???". Well...I did...and then they took it away. Why? Well..I don't mind saying... close to 5 years ago I got in a fight at a bar, got arrested, and I have a misdemeanor on my record. Well, the question on the app was..."have you been convicted of a crime within the last 5 years" (why the heck did they have to ask it like that!!)...Well...I thought it had been 5 years...put No...turned out it wasn't...so "I lied on the application". Stupid mistake...but hey...I'll learn from it! But..the company I am at...even though it is Cool:2e...is a really great company...and it is a company that has been growing RAPIDLY!!! And they have never gone public...so if in a couple a years they decide to do that...$$$$$$. I could always learn Java for the AS/400..which I am currently trying to get into the position to do. So, yes...salary isn't everything. But like I said, if they go public (I wish!). Plus, I'm on Product Development. Yes, I hate the salary game also. How the heck could company 1 be paying $52,500 and I haven't heard of any other place paying that. Oh...and I avoided "consulting" companies also. I don't want to work like a dog and get burnt out in 2 years. 40 hours for me! That's my experience. If anyone wants to talk jobs/salary/etc. email: wjcampbell99@hotmail.com
In my own personal experineces, background has a lot to do in determining what your starting salary would be for the same position. I graduated a 4 yr college with a BS in Computer Science. I had 3 yrs of NT experience, 2 of which were as a field technician. I got hired into NT desktop support at $38k USD. I had a friend at school who had the exact same background, but had higher grades, and got hired into Application Development at $39k. Yet another college grad friend got hired at IBM doing S390 programing at $45-48 (can't remember). Where I work, there are people doing the same job that I do, who only had a 2 yr technical degree, or simply background experience with no formal education, who got hired to do NT desktop support at $32-35k/yr. Hope it helps. BTW: These jobs are all in the New York, Connecticut, New Jersy area, so that may affect the salary, too.
The tuition credit anyone in University gets. You know, the T2202A slip? (All base tuition + $200/month tax credit.)
If you're a co-op student and you work only 4 months this year, you'll get all your tax back next March when you file. Check with your coop employer, they might have an option to not have any federal tax deducted at all (mine did.)
Reality check? Those sound like numbers your school and professors feed to you. They want to make the field sound better than it really is, even if they have to lie. How else will they keep you in CS classes that are often a waste of time? I suggest you actually look for a job, before commenting on starting pay. Most of the programming jobs I found around Cincy paid 18K - 22K. 40K starting-out? Yeah, maybe with a technical degree like engineering from a good school. Um, actually, I make $41K/year as a programmer in Columbus. And I don't have a degree at all, and I was just hired in August. Guess those profs didn't do a very good job of keeping me in the worthless CS classes, did they? Oh, and BTW, I went to a crappy school for the 3 years of college I did finish, so it's not that, either. I know a few MIS (not even CS) majors from my school who got $40K+/year job offers right out in the Toledo area, as well. If you're interested, we're recruiting ;)
Yes, I am the original poster of this message. If I may, I will profile the poster:
I'm spending the money. What can I say?
I am a UNIX Sysadmin working in Vancouver. I make around 65K + benifits (full medical and dental + 3 weeks vacation). I also have 4.5 years of doing this. later
I am a UNIX Sysadmin working in Vancouver. I make around 65K + benifits (full medical and dental + 3 weeks vacation). I also have 4.5 years of experience. later
This is very true. The Valley is insanely overpriced. Spending $500,000.00 for a 2 bedroom house is not my idea of fun. Having lived on Sandhill road in Palo Alto, which 20/20 once said was the highest price per sqaure foot in the WORLD I would have to agree that there is more to life than salery.
Can anyone recommend a good head hunter for either the San Antonio or Austin areas? I'm a *nix/perl/NT geek looking to get out of the NW. Posting AC to keep myself outta trouble- mail me at TX_Job_Hunting(at)hotmail(dot)com
I'm a consultant working for a mid sized consulting company. I have 2 years experience and I am considered by my clients to be a damned good developer. 2 years ago, fresh out of college, with BS in CS, my offers ranged from $36k - $42K. I took $39k at the company I liked the most. Raises have ranged from 7% - 9.5%/year. I also have 401k and healthcare.
For a cost of living reference, I just bought an all brick ranch house, 1800 sq. ft, central AC/heat, hardwood floors, in an awesome neighborhood for $90k.
Also, a close friend graduated 18 months ago with a BS in Agricultural Science. He got a job as a computer technician in St Louis for $20k. He was recently hired by a DC company at $40k.
I'm posting this as an AC too, just in case. I am working as a remote UNIX support engineer in the Atlanta area. My qualifications include a BS degree in CS/Engineering and 5 years of experience. I have a pretty good salary package here, which includes a $62,500 base pay plus profit sharing, a 401(k), stock purchase plan, and they also pay me overtime to be on-call (nets roughly $5k/year). Hope this helps.
When working out salaries in different areas, don't forget to take into account local taxes. I went from working in Australia, where you hit the 49% tax bracket very quickly, to working in Seattle where there is no state income tax (only the federal, which isn't much). Not only do I earn twice as much here as I did in Aus., I pay less tax.
I'm working in Atlanta as a UNIX support engineer. CS degree + 5 years' industry experience = $62k plus some nice perks (401k, stock purchase, profit-sharing). The only drawback is that I have to commute on GA 400. Now *that* sucks.
65K for VC++/Windows "development" (actually maintenance)
I work for the county MIS dept here and as I service tech/sysadmin I get paid around 1200 a month after taxes. To be honest that's enough for me, as that allows me to buy plenty of whees etc since I currently live with relatives. However I do know that just over the hills and about 230 miles west of me the same job would demand at least 10 grand more a year. I don't live in a very technology oriented area though. Anyone ever hear of Fresno/bakersfield? ;) Kinda in the middle between those two......
At least, for internships. I interviewed with them, and found out they only pay about $600 a week (I have a year of experience). This was for a development job too, granted it was only C programming without a ton of skill required, but still, internships there are among the lowest paid I've ever seen for development jobs.
Despite claims that these things were erased in the 60's, the US still gives preferences to certain countries like Australia, Canada and the UK.
It's programmers from India and China who have to clobber themselves to get an H1 permit.
Well if you're interested in a lifestyle change, come down under to New Zealand.
Grads get around $NZ40K (=$US20K), a few years experience will see you on $NZ60-120K. I've contracted and got up to $170K. Currently I'm getting $200K (but then that's working from home for a Seattle firm. Who said getting a H1-B is a piece of cake? I've got a degree, experience and immigration have been sitting on their hands since we applied in APRIL! Has anybody had a similar experience with H1-B's recently?)
The work here in NZ is varied there are a few big OO type projects at the government departments. A few banks and lots of small internet or e-commerce type firms. The market is pretty small too, so there is not a huge choice of work.
I've had a this problem of not knowing what I'm worth and it took until I gave my notice to leave that they suddenly want ot pay me what I'm worth, 40k/year is standard for no experience with a degree. but I'd ask 50k/year if you actually have ANY real world experience and a degree, 50-60k is probably what degree holders really should be getting paid, but you have to ask, and stick with it.
It's a great place for outdoors in the summer, although it is (doh) cold and dark in the winter. Great for skiing/snowmobiling, though, and you can always catch webspecials on Alaska Air to California for a weekend. The further north you go from Anchorage, the salaries increase exponentially (as the extremeness of winter increases exponentially). The market isn't quite as hot as the rest of the U.S. right now.
Most of the best-paying jobs are with Big Oil, either in Anchorage (pop 260k), Valdez (10k?), or Prudhoe Bay/Deadhorse (20 people plus oil employees). The telecom, transportation (mostly cargo), and tourism industries are the other big I.T. employers.
Wow, I'm surprised to see so many people who think $40-50k is GOOD. It's nothing. I have friends who have never gone to University, and they're only 20 or so and already make that much money as electricians or construction work, etc.
As for me, I just started my last year of University, and I have an offer on the table from a company here in Canada for $80k once I graduate (although I'm hoping to make about the same amount in US$). They basically said "we intend to hire you when you graduate, let's work something out". I told them to take their average starting salary and double it. They were quite willing to, since they know I'm talented, they know that I'll contribute as much as any of their more senior developers, and they want good people.
Mind you, they're not very big and it would be hard to get an offer like that from a large company. So look to small companies, and if possible do co-op terms while you're in school to show them what you can do, and prove you're worth those big bucks.
The bottom line really, is that you need to be very confident in your abilities. You need to know that you're the best out there, that the company you're interviewing with is never going to find anyone better than you. Of course, you have to actually be able to back this up, but if you can, you're in good shape. I've seen a lot of very talented people who settle for $40k salaries out of University, even though they're the best person in the entire company. Any company that doesn't want to pay you what you're worth isn't worth working for. Don't let a company exploit you like this just because you're a new grad. And realize that any company that doesn't want to compensate you according to what you're really worth probably just wants coding monkeys and isn't worth working for.
I don't share my salary with my co-workers, but
anonymously, it helps reveal inequity.
A little story--
As a teenager I had a sorry min wage job at toys 'r us. They had a sign that threatened that they'd fire you if you discussed your salary w/ other employees.
If you're an employer you want to think about that. The message that such a policy sends is that you're exploiting your employees for as much as you can get. Whether you are or not, communicating that idea makes for a morale problem. It can even lead to revenge in the form of stealing and other nasty things like intentional negligence.
So here are my 0.02$ on this issue. Top earnings
are paid in Zurich, myself I gain 60k $ as
Unix System Analyst/Engineer with 3 years ex-
perience. But be aware, McDonald's Big Mac Index
is 4$ here in Switzerland...
Yo
Cowie
At one year, I received my first raise in the PA job... a cost of living raise of 6%; about six months after that evaluation I began job hunting due to discouragement that my "above and beyond the lame HTML stuff you hired me to do" work did not appear to be rewarding at that job. On my second anniversary, I received a 4% cost of living raise and it was hinted that I might get a promotion the following year - I was appreciative towards my manager, but redoubled my job hunting efforts. I left shortly after my second evaluation due to an offer by my current employer - I was making just over $55K when I left my last job.
I now work in DE and have a prettier title (Senior Systems Analyst), a better insurance package (better benefits and lower employee contribution), better 401K (a higher company match), pension (last job had none) and a SIGNIFICANTLY lower cost of living than PA, most especially with regards to housing costs (which run around 60-70% of PA costs) and taxes (no sales tax, much lower property and income taxes). I have a narrower scope of responsibility than my last job (meaning there's people besides me here who know how to set up servers, teach classes, support users, gets specifications) and I started this job at $70K.
I am degreed in a chemistry, and have no formal classes, certificates, or certifications in computers, except for a 1 credit "Intro to Computers" class I took well over a decade ago at my junior college (years before I owned a computer). IME, experience counts for WAY more than education in this field.
There is good money in messing around with computers all day. However, you have to go out and find it. Update your resume, send it out to headhunters and start doing interviews. It took me six months to land my current position, because I turned down several offers - I was happy at my last job except for being underpaid. So I was very picky about finding a job that I would enjoy as well as one that paid a lot more.
Unix Sysadmin - over 8yrs experience In S/W Ontario. $65K Cost of living outside (far outside) of Toronto is considerably less
Remuneration per Annum including Superannuation - Permanent Personnel
(numbers are in Australian Dollars, 1A$ ~= 0.638USD)
Minimum First Quartile Second Quartile Third Quartile Maximum Average
Analyst Programmer 35,000 42,800 50,000 59,000 75,000 51,674
Applications Development 32,750 55,500 77,500 92,500 190,000 84,879
Manager
Business Analyst 45,000 54,125 56,500 76,250 130,000 68,813
Business / IT Strategy 43,000 64,000 80,000 132,500 165,000 95,727
Planner
Computer Operator 22,000 36,500 47,000 54,500 70,000 45,857
Database Administrator / 38,000 49,113 55,588 70,000 100,000 60,390
Designer
Help Desk Support 26,750 32,000 40,000 49,000 70,000 41,189
IT Change Management 45,000 68,250 77,500 95,750 130,000 82,833
Specialist
IT Manager 45,000 58,500 73,500 90,000 150,000 79,023
Network Administrator 30,000 45,000 53,250 55,294 85,000 51,989
Network Designer 42,000 45,250 64,000 77,500 110,000 65,848
Network Support 26,750 45,000 55,000 68,000 110,000 57,945
Network Technical Consultant 34,000 52,000 69,500 80,000 110,000 68,891
Operations Manager 40,000 55,000 66,000 83,750 130,000 71,500
PABX Systems Technician 40,000 40,500 41,000 41,500 42,000 41,000
Programmer 33,000 35,500 40,000 45,000 75,000 43,399
Project Manager 26,750 44,450 67,500 81,250 120,000 67,315
Senior Analyst Programmer 53,500 59,125 71,000 81,750 95,000 72,000
Senior Project Manager 70,000 78,000 110,000 130,000 150,000 108,111
Software Engineer 30,000 42,000 60,000 69,000 95,000 56,557
Systems Tester 26,750 34,250 45,000 55,294 60,000 44,327
Systems Administrator 35,000 52,625 62,000 70,500 95,000 62,339
Systems Analyst 42,000 53,500 60,000 68,000 100,000 61,887
Systems Architect 42,000 60,000 80,000 95,000 130,000 81,889
Other - IT 28,000 48,613 54,500 80,750 130,000 64,315
Other - Sales 25,680 54,090 73,500 100,000 260,000 93,168
Other - Marketing 50,000 58,500 67,000 128,500 190,000 102,333
Ummm that's a closed minded look. I have leveraged my position 3 times in 3 years. they kept dumping more on me so I up and started looking. I walked into my bosses office 3 times and said, "I have an offer at XYZ for $6,000 more, if you cant beat it I'm gone!" the last time I was offered $10K more and I told the boss, I'm taking another job, he asked if he could try to meet it and I said, "Nope, unless you hire so staff for me" I left anyways, and now have a much better job. Never EVER settle for what you have. Keep striving for better in your self and what you do / get paid for! the go-getter is always employed... the man worried about his job will usually be un-employed eventually but not before being screwed.
I work Tech Support/Database Programming in the ol' USA. Don't hate me just yet! I have no degree, but some mix matched experiance and know-how. I'm pulling in approx. $28,000 a year. I know my stuff when it comes to hardware, and have a fair understanding of SQL, VB, etc. What would someone like me bring home across the pond? Brad
emailed you check your email :)
With 5 years experience on Sun/SGI/HP systems, a systems administrator salary could start at $60K at any Fortune-1000 company. For a specialist in network security, databases, or similar technology, add 25-50% to that base. That's what I do now.
Or when 'pimped' out by one of the major consulting firms, double that base salary.
The cost of living info listed above is *very* cool, especially because you can get an idea of what percentage of your salary goes towards various expenses. However, one more piece of info would be a Good Thing: what are the tax rates for these salaries? I know that at the low end, UK income taxes aren't much different from the US, but they go up much more quickly. (At least this was the case 4-5 years ago when I was there.) Also, what is the NHS tax rate these days? IIRC, it was about 12% or so.
If you are looking for a short-term contract programmer in the San Antonio area, email me at shawn@rivalsoftware.com . I quit my job developing military flight simulators in March mainly because I was bored to tears and I have been doing odd programming jobs ever since.
;)
I work at home normally. I can be persuaded to work on site also although I'll probably jack up my rates if you make me wear a suit!
Shawn Yarbrough
shawn@rivalsoftware.com
It doesn't make much sense to convert the pay in the Phillipines to US$ when the cost of living there is dirt cheap in comparison. Assuming P1.00==US$1.00 (in that 1 peso has the same buying power in the Philippines that 1 dollar has in the US), you can live fairly well assuming that your standard of living is not very extravagant. C'mon now, we're talking a current exchange rate of P40 to US$1 so your US$500-US$625 per month is P20,000 to P24,000 per month -- not exactly slave wages...
Sure is. NAFTA works both ways baby. Edmonton is one of the cheapest places in Canada to live. Cheap housing, cheap food. Edmonton is the center for that area, so there is also lots to do.
yeah right and now you are overpaid and can't move. i can't tell you how many ex-honeywell, ex-dec, ex-sdc, ex-unisys people i saw in the early 90s who job hopped their way into oblivion. mini-computing people used to think they were irreplaceable too.
What happens to the people who work at Starbucks, Barnes & Noble, Walmart, etc.? There's got to be some kind of cheap place to live for students and people who work at the stores.
possibly overpaid and definately without a solid reference from your former manager.... suboptimal long term strategy, I think.
Posting this as AC for obvious reasons. :-)
Background: B.Sc. Engineering degree (1997)
Job 1: new-grad position in university community
- start: CAN$30K
- after 1yr: CAN $33K
Job 2: design analysis
- start: CAN$50K
- after 1.5yr: CAN$55K
Job 3: applications engineer
- start: CAN$71K
My primary reason for changing from Job 2 to Job 3 wasn't the money. It was for a more intellectually stimulating environment. Obviously, more money is nice, but it wasn't the deciding factor for me.
NAFTA works BETTER for yanks. You got a wife and kids, they can get work authorization. Try that in the USA. EVEN THOUGH that was PROMISED in NAFTA - you come over, your wife and kids can too, and they can work, too. Seems that Canada, with NO jobs to spare, will bend over to accomodate the USA but the USA will make everything one-sided to their advantage, as USUAL
Started with no degree and very little experience, but knowing my stuff. Started at $45K, after a year raised to $60K, which was unusual for a single raise except I'm good at it and work my ass off.
How big are they you ask? I make quite a nice chunk of change. If I made that exact same amount in Quebec (after exchange rate) I would have netted only 66% as much money. Simply becuase the top marginal rate in the US is 39.4 and the Quebec one is ~ 60. I also live in a state (and there are quite a few) where I have 0 state income tax. I moved from montreal to the states for three primary reasons: 1. LOWER TAXES this makes a HUGE deal moron. 2. The US dollar is higher. THIS is not a big deal wrt. living expenses since a MAJORITY of your living expenses come from (basically) paying other people, who are also paid in US dollars. This is, basically, why going out costs ~ the same amount. 3. You get paid more in RAW numbers (in my personal case WAY WAY WAY WAY more). SO you win on all 3 counts.
As a senior java contractor. Sure my rent is $2000 but that is $24k year i.e peanuts.
Java is Very in demand right now in the valley and this is one of my fatest years.
tom
It all depends on how you handle it. If you go in saying "here's the deal, match it or screw you," then yeah, you've burned a bridge. If you say "look, I like it here, but this is what's out there for me if I want to take it, and it's getting hard to justify sticking around," then maybe you can get them to see your side. Also you don't want to jobhop, around here we look askance at applicants who go someplace different every 6 months, but it's quite common to move every three years or so.
If you are interested in a better standard of living leave Canada fast. In the US you will make more in raw numbers. Add to this the exchange rate, and the tax rate and you will see that canada really blows when it comes to compensation. Further, in the US you have the chance to make it 'big.' Stock options flow like water for people who have some talent. Unlike Canada which is, basically, still run like some backwater 3rd world nation, where senority rules. But hey, if you want to live in a cold place where you will have to save for your Jetta, more power to you. Some people are not interested in their standard of living. I envy those people. Must be nice not to be concerned about such mundane matters!
> So in fact you can make a better living elsewhere. Wrong. When you get 'up there' in your standard of living you will see that the cost side means NOTHING. All that matters is the plus side of the sheet. I understand that you might not be at that level yet.
please folks, don't sell yourselves short. you can easily get 100+ guilders per hour (its easy and suitable enough to think 2 guilders = 1 dollar) over here and while the cost of living is higher than in the states, if you buy property, the government gives you a nice chunk of your mortgage back every month and you pay no taxes on profits from stocks. with the 35% rule for foreigners, you end up paying about 33% in taxes per year, but that's only after the first six months when you can use laws to your advantage to pay no taxes at all. gross=net for first 6 months if you do your research and get in with a contract house that specializes in foreign talent. one warning: while the states and europe are both called the west, these are two different worlds. if you don't learn the language(s), you will likely feel like you don't belong after a year or so when the newness wears off. and that's only one example i could give. anyway, if you have the skills, you will make way too much money but what's more important is your new understanding of the world by experiencing life abroad and seeing the world through the eyes of the locals. we all could learn alot about eachother by taking that plunge into the unknown. that's true enrichment. succes!
Yes, lots of unfilled positions. Why? Because every damn large company wants to hire those "cheap as dirt" employees in Atlanta. I think about twice a week I read an article that mentions how much cheaper labor is around Atlanta than almost any other city (expecially when compared all of New England or the Bay Area). I've looked for a decent paying job in Atlanta for over 15 years now so that I can be closer to my mother (who lost her legs in a car accident and needs more help than she can afford). I haven't found anything that good. Instead, I live in Knoxville TN, and make almost double what I would in Atlanta for the same job. Think about why so many companies would put their world headquarters there? There are a lot of great cities in the US, and Atlanta is nice, but not that nice. The companies locate there for the *cheap* labor. Think about it. That's why the pay for tech jobs in central GA sucks so bad.
(another theory) I have an engineering degree from a pretty good school, but in Atlanta I'm competing against quite a few GA Tech graduates (many of who want to stay in the Atlanta area). That could be one problem for most of us...
The lowest amount paid per year for someone with Solaris experience is $30,499 per year! And, I assume that's with good benefits. That's pretty good. It's far better than the $6,000 per semester I made working about 75 miles north at Clemson managing Sun workstations. And, you're complaining??
Getting pimped out isn't the worst thing in the world. You get paid much more like you said plus it gives you a good way to get around and see what kinds of jobs are out there. If you go work for one company you only get one perspective. If you go the consulting route you get to move around a bit more.
:)
Of course its notably more stressful and typically involves longer hours, but it's a give and take. Personally my thought is do the consulting thing, build up your skills and your coffers, take some time off to do something interesting and then go find a more relaxing job
GDay, I am an Australian with about 8years codeing C++, current Australian pay is about US$80Kpa in Melbourne Australia. I have been looking for work in the US and got 4 offers within my first month of trying. I have just accepted a job in Kansas City in the US at $95Kpa + benifits and relocation expenses. I organised it from melbourne. Obviously there is well paid work out there, you just have to find it.....
www.jenrick.nl
they specialize in foreigners, are 100% honest, will give you exceptional advice on living the dutch way. ask for nico rood. he's the man.
gordon
Dude, you are getting screwed hard! I have no degree, no certs and get this...no high school diploma and they pay me 50K for IT support (Hardware, Office, Notes, general network troubleshooting). What counts is your employent history and your actual knowledge. For the past 4 years, I have Bobbed for some big name companies. That's the type of stuff employers look for. It also helps to have a good recruiter pimping your stuff ;-) Good luck!
I am second to that - it is unbeleivable how badly he got screwed up.
TAFE certificate in Information Technology level 3, which isn't too impressive.. (TAFE = educational college kinda thing... alternative to Uni) ... no Uni. 12 months proffessional experience. i'm 17. and i get around 35K pa, in Newcastle, Australia. (a few hours from sydney) in sydney i'd probably get more - i dunno.
The Dutch speak English with less accent than the Irish, and you don't need to learn a new language (which is a bonus for the anglo-saxon crowd :-).
Huh. As far as i am concerned: you _do_ need to learn another language. Yes, I am bored by all those people thinking they can keep getting along by talking english.
Dutch is just like UNIX: RTFM.
j.
(but i'm just an old git)
Finland is the shittiet place to live if you are a real IT guru. The pay is shit, it's dark for 6 months of the year, taxes are 50-60%, women are really ugly bitches, food sux and on top of it all Finns seem to be real morons. Regards, Someone hoping to leave to US/CA asap
Yes, you can transition into an IT job without going broke. ;)
I started programming when I was a chemist for a pharmaceutical company. Basically, I was known as the one who figured out Word macros and made Excel spreadsheets and taught all the new employees how to use their systems. They called me before they called the Help Desk. So when we had a project that called for programming and no budget, I was asked if I wanted to do it. I had them buy me MS Access (then in version 1), VB (version 4), and some manuals, and a wanna-be geek got her first chance to code for a living.
Meanwhile, this new thing called the web was happenning so every day I got home from work, logged on, and read about how to write HTML, how to write this cool new thing called JavaScript, how to write in a language Sun had just invented called Java.
So... I got a small inheritance, quit chemistry and started my own business, a combination of web and small database programming, marketed to small businesses. My business never took off and after a couple years, I went looking for a real IT job.
I had experience. I had stuff I could point to that I had sold and companies whom had bought work from me. I got a job at just over $50K. Understand, I was offered LOTS of lower paying jobs, but I knew I could go back to chemistry and make $40-45 anytime, so wasn't very willing to talk to anyone for the cheap jobs. (Except for temp work, I did a stint as a high-end administrative assistant due to MS Office skills that has never, ever appeared on a resume and never will!)
At THAT job, I learned WAY more than they expected me to, and did much more than they expected me to, and after a year and a half, I sent out a resume with MANY more skills, specific projects I'd managed, supervisory experience, teaching experience, and tons of just general business experience... to scores of headhunters with instructions not to call me for any position paying less than $65K.
I interviewed for months before finding my current job at $70K.
I fully expect to be making six figures within 3-4 years, either here or elsewhere - but I am also still learning new stuff, at home and at work, to make myself more useful. I'm very bright and like learning new stuff constantly (I get bored easily) and have a tendency to hibernate and live in front of my PC all winter anyways (this winter I'm scheduled to learn for Linux and C), so IT is the perfect industry for me. IMO, being capable of and willing to learn on your own is the main prerequisite to ACTUALLY being successful with computers, though the companies hire primarily on experience.
Experience counts for WAY more than specific skill sets. Certifications and degrees are worth much less than having built a system that users actually use. Business experience is almost worth more than technical experience, because lots of geeks are not exactly wonderous at those old communication skills. If you have experience actually solving someone's problem, getting specifications, building an app, testing it, training users on it, writing documentation, doing support - you are invaluable.
It does not have to be an app used by thousands of people either, it can be an app used by 4 folks in a small office. If you don't suddenly get an inheritance and have the luxury of being able to start and ruin your own business, you can do this anyways. Find some friends with small businesses and find out what they need. Offer to build it cheap - let them know you're learning and won't be as fast as a real programmer, and that you need them as a reference. You will find programming projects that maybe no one would ever have called in a programmer for - that's fine, you just want some real life experience. Some folks are so darned computer-illiterate that they'll be majorly impressed if you write them a couple macros or scripts - and they will be GREAT references in the future cause they'll think you're utterly brilliant.
Once you've gotten 2 or 3 of these under your belt, rewrite your resume. For instance, mine says the years I graduated, schools attended and my degrees, but gives no indication that I studied chemistry as I'm not trying to sell myself as a chemist. My description of my job at the pharamceutical company doesn't sound like I was a chemist there, all I talk about are the systems I built and the problems I solved. Rewrite the WHOLE thing indicating a technical perspective when possible, and when you can't do the technical thing, emphasize the business perspective.
Then send the thing after every ad for a job you think you can do, and go to job fairs and hand it out to every company there... then start interviewing... the main thing is to just get ANY real job in IT (real does NOT mean a computer operator or help desk job, but ANY programming or networking job), but NOT at any pay. It is much easier to convince another company down the road to hire you at 25-50% more than you make than at 75-100%. Making bad money is really hard to overcome... if you are making $30K, it's very hard to convince anyone you're worth $60K.
After you get ANY real IT job, you're pretty much set. The world is DESPERATE for IT right now. I get calls and emails from headhunters ALL of the time (but they only call people with experience, friends who have years of education can't get callbacks, yet these folks chase me down). Just get IN and then you'll be fine if you're even halfway competent.
Good luck.
Exactly why I'm at work at 7AM, and leave at 3:30... a nice speed-limit commute! Mostly.
CausticPuppy
if you are a somewhat skilled coder (java or perl): 85k
if you can add routing/IOS knowledge to your unix knowledge: 90k
ideally you can be at the least entry level for each of those three caaegories (network engineering, coding, and systems administration)
add a 20k premium to any of these if you kick ass.
add another 20k if you were in early and they can't afford to lose you. ('guru status')
make sure they know they CAN lose you, don't react to them throwing stress at you, shrug a lot, show up for work stoned off your ass, the usual.
having a wide skillset also gives you more negotiating leverage.
you should have some money tucked away so you can negotiate without fear.
options are another issue altogether. usually harder to negotiate for.
generally it's a 4 year vesture with a 1 year cliff, meaning you don't get diddly for a year, and then you get 1/48th per month. in a startup situation you want a lot of options, because manegment decides how much to sell the company for if they decide they can't go it alone. welcome to the reverse split. not what you want.
things to be concerned about are number of outstanding shares (what percentage of the company do your options represent)
strike price (what do you pay per share to excersize your options)
the other route is conuslting. make upwards of 120 an hour, no health coverage, government takes 45%. however, you are given a job, and get to take it home. bill for whatever is plasible (up to 60 hours a week if your getting a lot done) and work what is necessary.
look at startups as big swings for the far fence (retirement) and consulting as guarenteed green.
anyway. thats my brain dump.
the most important thing to remember is:
THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH OF YOU
not everyone sacrificed their childhood to know this shit. cash in.
-alex
Hmm... relevent details. BCIT 2 year diploma with previous university arts degree (umm... (s)) Started low: 32K 1 Year: 42.5K 2 Years: 47K Medical, dental, 3 weeks vacation, banked overtime hours Rent a 3 bedroom 1300 sq/ft apartment for $985/mos. I'd be happy if it weren't for the $600/mos student loan payments.
Everything stated in the above post is true and not worth it for the majority of Americans to consider moving there. That being said, I find it important to point out a few GOOD things I have found about Canada in my travels to the greater Toronto area. 1)It is CLEAN in the cities. Toronto is great that way. No homeless that I could see (probably due to the weather in winter). The natural enviroment may be a different matter, but as far as trash laying around, it aint there. 2)The women are above average! I thought perhaps this was just a lucky coincidence in the places I happen to visit, but I have since heard others make similar comments. If you are a white single male, Canada is a fertile field for some reason. 3) They can't hassle you to buy drinks all the time in strip bars by law! Alright, it may not be important to everyone, but it is to me ;-) 4) Outdoorsman paradise. Hunting and fishing is second to none in North America. And some of the most picturesque vista's you'll find. 5) Crime is very low. At least violent crime. In the suburbs of Toronto I visit, the locals had to go back 2 years to remember the last murder there. The major cities are little higher obviously, but nowhere near similar sized american cities. They have VERY strict gun laws in Canada, which is a plus or minus depending on your political leanings. Personally, I find Canada to be a great place to spend time, but I wouldn't want to live there. Of course, If I get mugged tommorow I could change my mind.
Moving from the midwest to Australia I can say that in real cash terms I make about 1/2 but based on the car I can afford and computer equipment I can buy as well as number of big macs, it turns out that after taxes I make about 1/12 what I did in the US.
I'm starting to think I like my job better than I think I do.
The $40k that I make is decent for a first-year programmer (although I'm not actually programming a whole lot), but there are some perks here that I'm sure I won't find anywhere else:
1) IT management stays mostly out of my way, and nobody's looking over my shoulder, so I produce good results my own way
2) Something must be good here, because the *average* length of employment in my IT department is TWELVE YEARS. Many have been there for twenty.
3) The overall atmosphere (as a result of #1 and #2) is somewhat more relaxed than high-tech firms. Hell-- we make chickens.
4) I'm learning stuff that is going to be high in demand in the future-- there aren't a whole lot of IT people who know much about EDI and supply chain. Lots of big companies use that.
There are downsides though:
1) All of the cute women are super-religious
2) Ever been in the wastewater treatment part of a chicken plant?
3) Ever tried to talk Billy Bob ("my mouse ain't dialin' up my modem no more") at a remote feed mill in Bumblefuck through setting up ODBC drivers?
4) The fact that many people stick around for so long reduces the chances for promotion.
-CausticPuppy
(anonymous to avoid bad Karma)
Is that you John? ;)
Have a degree in computer science. 1 1/2 years experience in Java, Cold Fusion, MS SQL, Sybase, 6 months in Linux and am on NZ$45,000. Which is about US$20,000, after tax being about US$15,000.
Living and the lifestyle is pretty good down here... but guess where I'll be headed in 6 months or so?
[1 Argentinian Peso == 1 US dolar]
The situation in Argentina is horrible, looking
at your salaries in US/CA/AU/etc makes me cry.
Now on the salaries:
1) A friend took a job on an important argie ISP,
(he doesn't have a degree), his job is sysadmin,
he needs to know unix/linux/networking..
Salary: 1k (a month)
2) Web pages design, coding, etc, 25$ (you are
crazy if you want more).
3) Another friend get a job at an security
information field, 700 $ (a month)
4) Visual Basic/Delphi/C++, 1k (monthly)
5) Another friend, tech support on ISP 800 $
(monthly).
Sometimes you don't get paid, also 200 $ of
your salary is "luncheon tickets", they are
tickets exchangeable by food (people use them
because of taxes), and a new kind of slavery
"pasantias" (I dunno how to say it in english),
which means that you work for free, then you
could work paid in the future (but's false),
and you could add it to your CV.
And salaries will go down...
And lots of nasty thinks happens to your money,
job, etc..
I will go out of my f***********king country.
I hope it helps.
OHHHHH sorry, I am unemployed
hamete(at)hotmail.com
almost all salaries are crap. average wage is something like $NZ36,000 which equates to under $US20k.
Geeks get more.. but not necessarily much more.
Guys, be your own boss. I make about $NZ20,000 - a week.
That's for doing a bit of programming, and having plenty of spare time. And no, I'm not kidding.
Once again, Slashdot and the real world disagree. To any reader even thinking about the above, don't do it. I work for a BellSouth reseller, and we've gotten screwed on about as much equipment as we sell. If someone has your equipment in their office (or even their house) and you remove it without their permission, then you are guilty of larceny, possibly tresspassing and whatever else the local DA wants to throw at you. If you can sneak the equipment out, then you can keep it just fine. But, if you get caught doing it (like they call the police), then you will be arrested. The only recourse you have here is civil action. I've been over all of this with my company's lawyers and BellSouth's lawyers. You can not simply walk into a building and remove property, even if you own it. If you do take action then, you might collect a percentage (usually cash-value, less than what you paid because the equipment is used) for the equipment. The law protects plumbers and car mechanics (ever heard of a mechanics lein?) rather well, but not technical people. I've been there, done that. I've also had to bail co-workers out of jail for attempting the above.
I'm a recent grad of MIT, and I make 6.25 million yen in Japan for a CS position. That probably comes out to around 52K a year (more with the current exchange rate). I'm 24, and 2 years out of college. I think I could make a hell of a lot more in silicon valley. My friends were getting offers in the 60-100K range. The numbers may be high just for the university name recognition tho.
I'm sorry I just have to laugh at this. Try living in Japan, buddy.
From http://www.duhaime.org/diction.htm --
Larceny
An old English criminal and common law offence covering the unlawful or fraudulent removal of another's property without the owner's consent. The offence of theft now covers most cases of larceny. But larceny is wider than theft as it includes the taking of property of another person by whatever means (by theft, overtly , by fraud, by trickery, etc.) if an intent exists to convert that property to one's own use against the wishes of the owner.
IANAL, but with this definition, it sounds like it's the company committing larceny, not the guy who got fired! Also can't believe that it's not a crime if you don't get caught, but it is if you do??? How can they arrest you if you show up with proof that you own it?
Oh well, another lesson on how not to trust ANYTHING you read on the net. Get a lawyer.
After all, this is pretty much what most of the articles are about here. My dick^H^H^H^Hsalary is bigger than yours so there!
sorry, but i've got to chime in on this one...
i can't yet think of one 23 year old i've met in this business, myself included, that was worth anywhere close to 50k of 6 figures...
it's all about the experience and making the hard mistakes....
theory, unfortunately, only takes you 80% to success. the scars complete the deal....
(yeah, yeah... but *I*'ve been working for blah blah blah years, started when i was only 8. IT DOES NOT COMPARE.)
a.c.
I used to work for an ISP in Vienna and was making (about) $38,000 per year, which is pretty darn good there. Unix coder/hacker/admin guy, no degree, 5+ years of experence. Though one's salary is really only one small part of the picture. It's no accident that Economics is a science. You have to consider your income vs. price of your accatable standard of living in that country/enconomy. I had a good time living in Vienna for nearly 3 years, though towards the end I got rather irritated by germanic culture. The culture is very serious and can be rather color-less at times -- not to mention sucky weather. Always pick a culture you enjoy and you'd like to live in. Ciao
or, you could just be like some of us who do that precise thing living in the midwest under a significantly less excessive lifestyle than the average bear...
not sure exactly why it is that 400k houses are the rage...
who wants to keep all that maintained and cleaned anyway???
(duh.. i forget... there are maids and other professions to keep in business for all that. this is good for the economy.. i keep forgetting that...)
i (clearly) guess i just don't get it yet...
This is primarily a mainframe shop with some UNIX and some PC based applications. The other benefits aren't bad and there is an employee stock option program.
I get to work on the UNIX systems :)
as someone actually doing hiring in columbus, i can quite safely say that 41,000 USD is a fairly typical starting salary for those just out of college in the software engineering business. (not sure about system administration or some other such trades yet, but i personally refuse to hire system administration that didn't start out lock-stock-and-barrel in the software business first, thus i'd expect the prices to be approximately identical (with a premium for eternal-on-call-duty))
columbus' cost of living is increasing, while the demand for ***good*** people is excessive, thereby fueling a fairly healthy starting salary war.
this place is, believe it or not, a pretty good place to live right now when gauging the cost of living vs. the average salaries of i.t. folks...
(now, i'm not one that cares, but so many people whine that "there's nothing to do here!" to which i counter with "it's all what you make of it")
;)
a.c.
I am coding with a ex-business major guy that decided to take the jump to the other side of the fence when he saw how much the engineers he was signing the checks for where making.
c++ is a bit hardcore, no offense, for a marketing guy. Try something simpler I don't know VB or powerbuilder (the collegue started with power builder) and then move up to some real languages (C++, java). I hear of $400k/yr being standard for star OO developers in the valley, but most people I know make $80-150k/yr (valley) doing these OO development.
i don't know where you live but I would say, drop the MBA, you'll make what 80k working for McKinsey, you won't learn jack and you will have wasted 2 years of your life. Just learn how to really code and move onto the money. The simplest? java!
Come to think of it the simplest is to move to the valley even a starting salary is 80.
Matt
help you make >300k per year in silicon valley .
at this rate it's ok
I live in Vancouver, am a founder of a well funded startup and am pulling 120K CAD. This is not indicative of others though. We are paying good perl programmers ~ 60K + options, and java programmers a similiar wage. Vancouver is brutal - I am glad I am not trying to survive on 28K! My rent is 1200 in yaletown.
If not-- you are still being underpaid at 350k.
Kansas -- Home state of Dorothy
Lucky for you, there's a difference.
Make sure to check out the ol' gridiron. You'll be in the right city for it.
Norway is a nice place to live. Living standards are high.
As a programmer you earn good money. With a degree and some experience you will probably get a salary of 40000$+. Excpect to pay 30-50% in taxes.
But: Because of all the taxes a lot of things are free, like hospitals(almost free!).
Food is expensive, gas is expensive (4 times US prices), housing is expensive, but you can aford it with the kind of salaries you would expect to get here.
If you like snow Norway is a perfect place.
There was an article on this in today's Chronicle. And that number was reached using much more generous standards than the fed uses.
http://www.sfgate.com/
As long as your building is pre-1980 or so, and no major work has been done, they can't raise your rent more than .6*CPI (between 1-2% recently).
I've been living and working here for 6 years. I make 100k and my rent is 830.
I dropped out of grade 11, then my second semester of college and still scored a job in Vancouver as a Flash developer. Then I ended up having to do CGI's, so now I'm a perl programmer too.. I get to work from home and the pay kicks ass, $36K/year under the table (TAX FREE) which would probably be around $60-70K if I was giving half of my money to the government to waste.
Hm... So, you wasted resources here in sweden, enjoyed a vast array of social welfare, like:
* Really low-cost health care
* Free higher education
* Social security systems
Well, I guess that gasoline is about 10 times cheaper in the US, but try eating that...
I'd be very intereseted to see how much money you have left after all expenses.
To compare (assuming that 1 US$ = 8.50 SEK):
I make 2941 US$/month. It is not a super-high income, but its a good one. My wife is studying, and she contributes about 529 US$/month.
We live in central Gothenburg, with my wife and 2 kids, we pay for a large apartment (100 sqr meters) roughly 765 US$/month.
Last year, I was in San Francisco, and the cost of living for a small apartment, with one room, was between 900-1000 US$.
If I get sick, and need to go to the hospital, I pay, depending on what part of sweden I live in and what kind of specialist I need to see, 12 - 41 US$ each time I visit the doctor.
The cost of hospital treatment is about 6 US$/day, including, food and whatever kind of treatment and medication you'd need during your hospital stay.
For kids youger than 20 years, you usaually pay nothing (Zero Dollars) for medical treatment or doctors visits.
How much do you have to pay over there if you get sick?
And if you are sick for an extended period of time, I assume that your employer is undertanding, and won't sack you just like that, right?
All, in all, considering everything, my guess is that to have the same living standard in the US, that I have here in sweden, I'd need to make close to 6000-8000 US$/month. (US$ 72k - 96k year). A bit more than 60K/year. And that is just to withstand current standard.
Am I wrong?
I can tell you, if you are from outside the "European Union" area your employer has to prove why they need you instead of a European.
As a foreigner you are not allowed to buy housing, at least not in Amsterdam and nearby cities.
You should check all the legal/tax stuff before you go there.
If you don't have a place to live they won't hire you since it so difficult finding an appartment at all. Expect to first find a short-term place to get "registered" with the officials, then live at another place that is actually rented out illegally.
Don't worry, Dutch people may be a bit square and have a lot of rules, they still don't care much if you break the laws (e.g. smoke marijuana, squat a house, fake your tax income forms).
The god thing with large bureaucracies is that you can usually bullshit them quite a bit. Don't tell your home country that you make Dutch guilders and they may never find out. Then again, maybe they will...
In my travels, the one thing I can say about the Britain and many European countries is that the system is much kinder and nurturing to kids.
Once you've passed through your vulnerable years and into adulthood, America can be a playground for well educated visitors with all it's consumerist pleasures. But if you have kids, you need to think twice.
Screwed up Yank
Somebody/anybody care to back that statement up? I thought that it was the other way around?
I've been working in the Bay Area for years, but NYC is where I go when I really want to experience life!!!!!
Not to mention that the majority of them are morons and are extrememly annoying -- doing aggressive things like spamming slashdot with totally inaccurate figures.
When I went to England, I got 15,5k just to code html. A bit later (3 months) my salary was raised to 18k for some ASP, HTML and SQL coding. And I really had a low income, compared to most IT professionals.
Just wanted to add my $.02 Housing is outrageous, but the compensation levels it out. Living here is great, and the possibilites for income are just as good if not better than in the US. To say it better, expats make more than MOST dutch IT'ers with more experience. Dont settle for less than 5k NLG/month....
You can't really compare hourly rates for students to salaries for full time employees. If broken down to hourly rates, the latter actually tend to be lower than what students are paid, especially if you count unpaid overtime :-(
This sounds extremely low to me, even for somebody with no university degree. For someone with knowledge in networks and Perl, I am sure my company would double that. I think anybody who has at least minimal technical knowledge should not accept a starting salary under DM 60.000,-.
Standard government salary for scientific personnel with a university degree is (depending on your age) around DM 70.000,-. Industry salary is typically higher. In my second job, I startet at DM 100.000,- after three years in a government-funded research institute.
Some people (like myself) are not allowed to disclose their salaries by contract with their employers. The reason behind this is probably to avoid envy among co-workers and employees demanding higher pay based on the salaries of others.
Yep, In the U.S. everything's illegal except paying taxes.
You're being shafted though - even when working on my project stuff and so on, I got some $22k/yr. I'm considering either $5+k raise or moving to a country with less fascistic laws now that I'm about to graduate :)
There is a site in the UK which might have what you are looking for...try this: http://www.computerweekly.co.uk This is has a link asking "Are you getting paid enough?" Hope that helps.
I'm not sure what skills you have to offer. As you can appreciate, contracting and rates are all about supply and demand. If you have in demand skills you should be able to get your rate (or even more). Your $100 equates to about 62 pounds, which is on the high side. Some organisations have arbitrary limits like 50 pounds per hour. The other trend as there are more people on the market is for firms to ask for a daily rate.
Your problem is most likely to be getting a work permit, tax, and not getting shafted by the agency. (demand to know the agency %'ge, about 15% is the norm).
Hmm. If you find a girl in Ireland called Colleen, chances are she's American.
I go to Waterloo, and there are quite a few really sweet jobs one can get through the co-op program here. In my 2nd work term I was making about $40k/year CDN working in Canada. I worked in the states on my 3rd work term and was making the equivalent of more than $60k/year CDN after the exchange rate. Try and get a job with a US company, they'll pay for your plane ticket and everything, and the salaries are always really good.
Okay,
as I am just trying to get into Canada, how does it look for Europeans?
I just got my paperwork together and now I wonder how much of a fight I have to go through....
> - Type of degree (BS, MS, PhD, etc) BTW: I am looking for a job in the SV and have one big problem: I am German and don't know all these abbreviations. Is there any list where I can learn what BS/BA and so on means? -Bettina (cinnamon@gmx.*blah*de)
if you don't learn the language(s), you will likely feel like you don't belong after a year or so when the newness wears off
That's the first time i heard something like this. I have never heard of an Anglo-saxon ex patriot working in the Netherlands who learnt to speak Dutch. Some of my professors (american, british) have been teaching here for decades, and they still don't bother to learn Dutch.
>I am looking for a city with lots of bandwidth, decent nightlife, friendly people, and money. >San Diego, CA sounds nice to me right now... anyone know of any other cities? You can add Phoenix to your list of cities. We have abundant access to cable modems and DSL. Phoenix is fairy wired. Night life is above adequate. Friendly people...well, it all depends on which muncipality you decide to live in. Naturally upper scale areas are populated with more educated people and perhaps more friendly. Unfortuantely however all is not peaches and cream. Phoenix is the seventh largest city in the U.S. Usually this statistic would translate into an abundance of large size technology companies, abundace of IT and software related positions and higher pay rates. The quantity of jobs is adequate, however quality is woefully lacking. This area is dominated by a few divisions of Fortune 50 companies, namely Motoroal, Intel, AlliedSignal, Honeywell (these two are now one) and perhaps American Express. Salaries of high tech professionals have to be one of the lowest in the country. Software Engineers with ten or more years of experience can expect to top out at $65,000 - $70,000 annual salaris. I have heard of a few exceptions at $75,000. Contract rates are at ridicolous and sometimes laughable figures. Programmers with 5+ years of C++ and OOD related technologies experience have extreme difficulty in obtaining $50/hour contracts. I would venture to guess that the average contract rate for experienced software professionals to be at $30-$35/hour range. On top of all this, one can expect to work on projects which are managed by - how shall I say it - less than experienced and knowledgable personnel. Overall, living and working in Phoenix is a compromise of quality of life issues vs. professional career issues. It seems that the Phoenix technology professionals have to forgo the latter in favor of the former.
Does anyone really look for a high school diploma anymore? Does it matter? BTW, congratulations on your road to success!
I didn't say i was worth what I make. A year after graduating college and spending a year with a big name consulting firm, I got a year long contract at $50 an hour.... so I was 23 and making ass loads of money just doing custom VB development... go figure.
Here's some Texas data on what sysadmins with 5 years of experience should make:
Houston: $90-110k
Dallas: $75-95k
Ft. Worth: $80k (little variation)
San Antonio: $60k (little demand)
Austin: $45k ('cause it's just so kewl)
Amarillo: $65-75k
El Paso: $55-75k (not that bad, looking at cost of living)
Waco: $60-75k
Now, looking at the cost of living (based on $100k in each place, normed off of Houston), your purchasing power would be:
Houston: $65k
Dallas: $58k
Ft. Worth $63k
San Antonio: $55k
Austin: $40k
Amarillo: $60k
El Paso: $58k
Waco: $63k
Now, this is a product of me, a piece of paper, http://verticals.yahoo.com/salary/, and thinking of friends around here this fine holiday, as I come off of 48 hours without sleep due to Anderson "Consulting" screwing up a Y2K "fix."
Bottom line is that industry (oil, in Houston) pays best, and popular places (like Austin) are really expensive and don't pay shit.
Case in point: I worked for a few years in Dallas, making about $75k, then took a job in Austin making $60k, but it meant that I could finish my undergrad degree anf have spending money. Bullshit. Two years later I had not saved a dime (well, saving less than $5000 on that salary for two years is pretty bad)(for me), and I was sick of never having enough money. When I was done, off I went Houston, where I am making close to $95k working for an oil serviced firm and have enough money so that I can save 25% of my gross and pay enough on my house that I can have it paid off in five years, which ain't bad.
So, except in Austin, you are getting hosed.
Whaaaat? Getting a work visa (H1B) in the US is insane hassle. Takes 3 months minimum (took me 5 months and a great deal of hassle at the US embassy in the UK). Oh, and don't even think about attempting it without a lawyer. Drop of a hat, my ass.
Hmm, NHS tax rate? What's that? NI is about 8%. To tell you the truth, I think you get taxed the same in the US as in the UK. a total of 50% of my salary in the bay area goes to either the federal govmt or the state of california. It works out about the same in the UK - top tax rate is 40%, plus national insurance. So no difference.
Great, fansy a date? :)
Yes, I think $45K is pretty low.
I have a lot of experience (23 years), but I work as an Oracle DBA in a fairly large corporation in the southeast US. My salary is $80K.
At my previous job (until 3 months ago), I made $75K. And at the job prior to that (ended Apr '98), I made about $62K.
Changing jobs has helped me a lot. If I had stayed at my original job, where I had been for 22 years, I would probably still be making less than $70K.
So what's your company called? =)
I'm a developer that has contacts in the contracting community. I have a need for someone with Solaris experience (UNIX acceptable). The position is in Alexandria, VA (suburb of Washington, DC) and pays around $45 an hour. Write me at thecathedral@NOSPAM.hotmail.com (leave out the NOSPAM....)
You can look for anything between $50 and $130 an hour. As a contractor you need to incorporate and then you are responsible for your own pay/taxes etc. Get legal advice on this.
Standard of living varies across Europe, as does facilities etc. London is an expensive place to live, Brussels is a good place for transient living (flats rented by the day, good restaurants etc) etc etc
A good place to look for work is www.jobserve.com
The downsides of contracting? You can be isolated from the main life of the company you work for, you have to deal with agents who are often the scum of the earth and you can't really take a sneaky sick day or holiday without suffering cash flow qualms.
This was considered 'good' by my friends & family - I'm 19 now (was 18 when I started), have next-to-no formal qualifications (a single A-Level in Computing), and my only work experience was being a system builder/tech guy for a small (4-person) computer shop.
(Incidentally, I was on just over 6k at the computer shop - I was getting raped big-time. My friends doing part-time shelf-stacking were getting more ph than I was. But I couldn't ask for any more because the shop wasn't doing too well, and in fact ended up closing down making me redundant. Anyway.)
Since that though, my job has changed a lot - I'm now 'Internet [DNS, Firewall, router etc] and E-mail [Exchange] Administrator and Tech Support", plus network maint, some netware and unix admin stuff, plus I get to flex my C muscles every now and then for a project.
I've got a feeling that I should be on more than 12k.
My employer has paid for me to do the MS Exchange MCP course, and I paid for the exam, and is currently paying for a BSc Computing evening course too, which kinda ties me down.
This is the 'lower end' of the scale, I think. As far as I can tell, my wage started off about right for my age & exp and the job type, but hasn't grown at the same rates.
I know people my age in other (skilled) careers that don't earn as much as me, though, so I can't be too badly off..
(ramble ramble. Not AC, but feel uneasy giving out salary details in a public forum..)
Salaries in the UK vary by region.
In the City typical rates are:
Graduate (fresh from college): £27k + package
3-5 years App Developer : £30 - £40k + package
5 years+ App Development/PM: £50 - £80k + package
5 years+ (Management - lose skills) : £60 - £150k + package
===============
Contract Rates:
===============
Network Analysts : £20 - £40 ph
Sybase DBA : £50 - £80 ph (£90 - £155k pa)
OO/C++/Java/CORBA + Business Knowledge £50 - £90 ph (£90 - £160k pa)
Web Dev : £20 - £80 ph (depending on experience).
VB/Delphi : £40 - £60 ph : (£75 - £115k pa)
Project Manager : £70 - £100 ph (£130 - £190k pa)
Use 1.56 as an exchange rate for US$
We're about to get stuffed by a wonderful piece of legislation called IR35, which disadvantages contractors (more tax to pay).
Cost of living in London:
2 bed flat (purchase) £100 - £200k (ok you can go more expensive if you want)
Equiv. £400 - £800 per month
Renting - expect approx £1000 per month for a nice flat.
Shopping Bill (for two) : £60 - £100 per week.
Eating out : £6 (MacDonalds) - £500. You can get a nice meal for two with good wine for about £60 - £100.
Travel : £65 per month for a zone 2 pass - if you go further out rent goes down (generally) proportionatly
And, some companies offer it in lieu of pay. You might want to think twice about that. I've been screwed 4 (yes, FOUR!) times already working for companies for stock options. By taking options as a replacement for pitiful pay, or in one case as entire pay, I've gotten screwed. I was paid almost 150K/year in Comp-U-Card stock. The problem was that I couldn't sell it before 750 days had past. In that time, they merged with another company and became Cendant. Before I could sell the stock, it went from $80+ per share down to almost $12 per share. I watched 85% of my pay for a 25 month period simply dissappear. So fellow slashdotters, pay attention to the minimum time you have to keep the stock you are offered. Often times, it's an eternity relative to how long the company has been around.
I've also been screwed on further stock sale-outs. If you read the fine-print, you'll notice that typically the employees will own at most 1-10% of a company. One company I worked for dump 8% of the company stock as a bonus to 5 executives. They sold their stock quickly, and my stock was suddenly worth less than half of what it was before. It's simple supply and demand. You own N shares out of M outstanding. If the company decides to create more M, then your N is worth less. (that' worth {space} less, not worthless).
I don't know if this goes without saying, but never take stock in a private company as payment unless you really trust the majority ownership. I've been screwed-out twice that way. There is no SEC and a set of laws to protect your ownership. In both cases, the majority owners voted to sell the company to themselves for $1. I was left with nothing, except lawsuits because the old company didn't pay all of thier outstanding bills.
Rather than trying to win the lottery with stock options, you might want to ask for something different, like health insurance or a dental or vision plan. From a college electrical engineering alumni meeting I attended, we had an anonymous survey passed around. All of us graduated from 1977-81 in EE. Of those, only about 30% were still in the engineering field (sad!). Of those that were, not a single one, who didn't work for the governement, had what they considered good health insurance.
In Montreal, right out from the university,
graduates start at $40K and above. I know a good
student that was offered $50K.
Taxes are high, but they are not 50%. If you
do $40K, you will probably keep $28K in your pockets. Lets not forget that the 50% tax
rate applies only on the extra dollar you earn
after a certain level (somewhere around $55K
$60K)
And Canadians do not go to the States because
of lower taxes. This is the biggest lies of all.
What you gain in taxes in the US, you lose it
in living cost. People go to the States because
the are paid in $US which is around 50%
worth more than $CDN. Also, they go south
because of the adventure. They want to
try something new.
Personnaly, I am considering a contract either
in Florida or Paris. Adventure has a big part
in my decision.
If it was only for taxes, I would be working
in Ottawa. But Montreal is too much fun to
leave for Ottawa, and many Montreal programers
have the same feeling. I never heard of anybody
moving because of taxes.
Regards,
Hans Deragon
Currently starting salaries in HK for a programmer are around US$16K to US$20K per year. However they go up fast. At 9 years of experience it's unlikely you will be working as a programmer, more likely you will be an SA or manager. If you're reasonably good you could be earning between US$50K to US$100K per year. The range is pretty large and depends on what kind of company and position you have. Small/Medium sized local companies pay at the low end, larger multinationals tend to pay at the higher end. Problem is the cost of living is real high. Forget about living on your own on the starting salary. Rent alone could cost between US$12K to US$25K per year, depending on location and size. And that is at the low- to middle of the market! If you think you're a Yuppie prepare to pay US$50K per year for rent for an upper-middle class area.
Mine cost me nothing, though I'd guess that she probably got somewhere in the neighborhood of $14,000 from the company I got placed at. Unfortunately the headhunter I dealt with has since retired. I got lucky with finding her however, I used to get a lot of calls from headhunters that annoyed me. She called me up and said 'so are you tired of working for *name of CEO* yet?' Instantly I knew that she had done enough research to understand why I'd want to leave.
I have two years of full-time experience. 1 1/2 as a SysAd, 1/2 as a software engineer. I work near Philly and currently make around $70K + stock options + education + good medical, etc. Of course the first job I got out of school paid less than I would've liked and was utterly horrible to work in, but it taught me a lot of the things to watch for in future employment. Now I'm exceedingly happy in my job, have enough variety in my job to keep it interesting and the pay, while not amazing, pays the bills nicely. I really suggest finding a GOOD headhunter. While it's hard to find a good one, I found one that I described what I liked about my last job, what I didn't, and she quickly found me a bevy of positions to choose from all of which were well-suited to my desires.
Is it possible/easy for US citizens to get IT jobs in Canada? I think it would be a cool (no pun intended) place to live.
I recently visited a friend in Edmonton, who payed $450CDN/month for a nice apartment in downtown.
Hi,
:-)
How easy would it be for an American programmer (UNIX/Perl/C++/PHP) to get a visa for a job in a Latin American country?
I'd *really* like to live there a while to improve my Spanish. About any where in Central or South America or Mexico would be fine.
Of course, if you're down there and need someone, you can drop me a line... micah@myhome.net...
- A.P. (who makes enough, even as a student)
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
It all depends on where you live.
:)
For instance, a decent perl jockey here in Portland, OR, can make anywhere from $30-$60/hr (more often than not salary).
However, less than 100 miles away in Salem, OR, I was working as Tech Support making minimum wage (that ended quickly), and the sysadmin there (who is a contributer to both the kernel and gzip) was making $12/hr.
Moral of the story? He moved to SV, I moved to portland. The more demand for IT the higher the wage.
SO MOVE SOMEWHERE WITH A LOT OF PIPING AND ELECTRIC COMPANIES.
-Erik-
When I moved from NC to France (Paris) back in '95 I got about the same salary, low-40s. But the US was coming out of a slump and being a native english speaker helps in France.
I got a small raise when I moved from France to the Alps (Grenoble), but that was because they needed a liason to the US ASAP. But the dollar was stronger, so I was making less than $40k. Don't exchange rates suck?
I moved back to North Carolina at the start of the year, and nearly doubled my previous salary.
Not only is the software industry booming in the US, France has can't-fire laws, so companies are less likely to want to hire. They just outsource everything, so there is less pressure for salaries to go up.
In defense of France, the cash is lower, but there are a lot more perks. 5+ weeks of vacation, cheeper medical bills (at least for the routine stuff), nicer day care system, etc, etc. Don't let cash alone regulate your life.
If anyone is interested in France, starting (fresh out) salaries in the Alps last year were about 150kf ($30k). A few years of experience and you'll be upto 180-200kf ($38-40k). There are too many folks who want to work in the Alps. If you are interested in Paris, add 50% or so to those numbers. Then remember the cost of living too. Paris is expensive.
Avoid SSIIs (service companies & contract shops) as they want low ball salaries. I guess that's true everywhere.
It should be noted that a single person can expect to pay about 50% of his gross income in taxes and social security. Married couples can pool and split their income for taxation, non-working partners are covered by most social security services for free, and there is a choice of tax credits or direct support for children. Social security includes fairly good medical support, unemployment insurance, and a retirement income that may or may not be sufficient to live on in the future.
Salaries are for a fixed amount of time (35-40 hours per week, with 40 hours being more common in IT-related branches), more work is paid separatly.
Also included are about 28-30 days of paid vacation (plus a lot of religous and national holidays).
Stephan
VB/SQL/DBA in NY financial institution = $100K + bonuses.
And I'm quitting my job, so if anyone is interested...
This sig left unintentionally blank.
The first blank on your questionaire is GPA and major and you dropped out of school yourself to start this business? You've got to be kidding. Seriously though, this is probably the most important thing the article misses. Salaries really depend a lot of your GPA and education.
well its not as bad as Sweden - there you get badly by taxes and the Beers mega-expensive too :-(
well its not as bad as Sweden - there you get hit badly by taxes and the Beers mega-expensive too :-(
Not so bad. I started at my company 8 years ago, in shipping & receiving, at roughly $11k/yr - it was a software company. I had dropped out of Art school due to lack of funds. I ressurected my old, forgotten love of computers from High School, and learned DOS and Netware, and graduated to testing hardware (we bundled some hardware with our products), and from there to Tech Support, where I got a raise up to $22k. Now I'm a senior Tech Support rep, and am making $65k, plus 401k, excellent health insurance, and other goodies, plus I have vested stock options worth in excess of a quarter million $ US. Probably worth half a million this time next year if current trends continue. Doesn't matter much to me, that's all icing on the cake.
Not bad for an art school dropout.
Though my company has been merged and squished and bought several times, and I ended up moving 2000 miles to keep my job (and those stock options), I'm still working for the same company, and definately not locked into a 5-7% raise structure. (though when I get increases, they're generally in the 2-5% range, the big increases have been from internal promotions).
I can't help but wonder what some of the coders are making at this company. I've actually spent some time trying to learn C on my own, but I've found that though I was great at self-paced learning in HS, I suck at it now, with family responsibilities competing for my time, so I'm finally going back to school, this time to get an engineering degree.
I don't know quite whom to thank for this life, but I gotta say, in retrospect, it's been great so far.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
From a Yank who's been to England (one week training stint).
Housing:
The vast majority of US houses built in the 80's are like what you said, far better than their UK counterparts, for the money. But increasingly, new houses in the states are being built on much smaller plots of land. Even very, very large luxurious houses have these tiny tiny yards. Don't bother owning a large dog if you plan on buying a newer house. In California (at least around where I live), generally, older houses don't have basements, or screens on the windows (no bugs out here anyway). In Illinois though (where I came from) you're darn toonin' right you have screens on the windows. Bugs bugs bugs! And when there's no bugs, freezing rain.
Fuel:
You poor bastards. That's all I have to say.
Although, around London, I'd have to say you DO have a fabulous set of alternatives to driving. Best public transportation I've seen ANYWHERE, and I've been to MANY US cities, major and minor. Between the Great Western, and the Underground, you guys have it so nice. Back when I was in Illinois, they had trains and busses from the burbs into Chicago, but they were noisy, uncomfortable, and expensive as hell. Travelling by Great Western train in the London suburbs was luxurious, and pleasant. (what, I'm sure as hell not going to hire a car and hope I don't forget what side of the street to drive on - I nearly got killed several times as a pedestrian! Luckily, your works people are smart and painted "LOOK RIGHT" on the street by all pedestrian crossings - otherwise, I'd likely be dead now).
People:
No arguments there - but you can't make a blanket statement about US people. It varies widely by region. It's a big honkin country.
Computers:
You poor bastards!
Health service:
You poor bastards. Clinton almost had us in a similar mess. Thank goodness that didn't come to pass.
Other things -
Food: If you like food, England is NOT a nice place to live. Very little fruit is to be had, meat is often tough and fatty, and overcooked, although vegetables are often good quality. Lots of strange customary foods like blood pudding, and meat pies, etc. Luckily, American culture has somewhat infested the areas I was in, so there was some fallback to what I could eat.
Beauty:
I'll agree. England is stark-raving beautiful as a country. It's architecture, and countryside are second to none. It's music and culture are as rich as any in the world. But dentistry is obviously a hundred years behind the US. Not just an "Austin Powers" joke. It's true. BRUSH AND FLOSS DAILY!!!
But for the hottest chicks anywhere, listen to the Beach Boys song; you gotta come to California. The only problem is, they're a rare commodity in Northern California. SV guys should take weekend raids down to LA and import the hot chicks back to the Bay Area. They're wasted in Hollywood, where beauty can be bought cheaply.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
A contract job in the Philippines actually sounds like fun. I might be looking into that in a few months.
Sorry but you're completely off base with those figures (mostly at the low end) - perhaps if you go right to a merchant bank in London you might hit the top of that scale here, but for the most part a graduate can expect around 14 up to 24 depending on location - the further north you get expect it to be lower (the UK's wonderful north/south divide is alive and well thanks to Maggie!).
Graduate salaries aside - a good IT worker here can expect to top out about 35-40k (according to the latest offerings in computer weekly - a trade mag) without going contracting. This is because the UK still is stuck in the 1970's with regard to who should get higher pay - management (big bosses can earn silly money here). On the contracting side of things it's much rosier. Expect low end to be around 25/h (although all contractor segments have been badly hit of late with a market slump prior to Y2K) and upper end can be anything really - I've seen/known people charging 100/hour or more for the right skills.
My advice: Go it alone, either contracting or your own business. IR35 has been killed for a while (do a net search to find out what that's about) and the contract market is looking up again. Also the Chancellor keeps announcing excellent measures for small businesses.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Try Scotland's central belt too. We don't have the beer (you have to like Malt Whiskey if you want a good local drink here) but I'd be willing to bet we come close in our wonderful rain factor. My brollie's never been out so much since moving.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
On the subject of not needing air-con, yes, that's true - you don't need it. It does get hot though. We've just had terrible summers lately. Lest ye forget the summer of 1995 when temperatures in London soared to 40 degrees (and I was stuck in a bedsit in Acton with a window that didn't open).
I don't mind too much about not using my car (I get the train to work every day) - but really there's little valid alternative yet. Our trains are appalling and expensive. Our buses are better but badly maintained and not nice to travel on. Try another country to see what I mean.
And what I really take issue with is "you'll get emergency care quickly and free". Free yes. Quickly, no. Not unless you're bleeding to death. My last trip to the ER was a couple of months ago my wife woke up in agony with pain in her severe womb region. I took her to the ER. It took her 4 hours to be seen. For 2 of those hours we were the only people in the ER (this was now about 3am). There were no emergencies that night blocking us - we were simply waiting - and my wife's pain didn't pass all that time (it was an ovarian cyst, for what it's worth). She wasn't given any pain killers until 6am. Nice health service. I have many similar stories but they aren't exactly slashdot fodder.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Maybe it is time to leave the UK? Let's see.
Maybe, but i doubt it. Just get a good accountant. Most contractor accountants have already figured out the ways around the bill - I know mine has. Need a good accountant? I can recommend mine www.jonesandco.co.uk
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Here's my perspective on the UK vs the US/Canada (my wife is Canadian and I know a lot of friends out in the US).
:)
:)
First thing is that salary is really irrelevant - you just can't compare dollars for pounds. I earn much more than some of the Canadian people I know, but they have more. Let's break that down:
Housing
The average house in the UK simply pales into comparison with our stateside friends. The problem here being LAND. We don't have much of it. Canadian houses I've seen (and US ones too) have much larger plots, have 3 levels (we don't have basements - at least not in new houses - only in houses > 75 years old), air conditioning, larger rooms, larger garages, and better facilities. UK houses are small, have very little land, and often you're lucky to get a garage. Air con is unheard of in a house. We don't have screens on our windows so expect to enjoy bugs in the summer. And expect to feel cramped - your house will probably be sandwiched on an estate with several hundred others, or in a terrace (OK, so that's not true for everyone, but you get the picture).
Fuel
Our govt doesn't like us driving. Current fuel tax is something like 85%. Yes, you read correctly. That makes petrol extortionately expensive compared to the US. And the price also varies vastly throughout the country (e.g. London: 66.9p per litre, A1 road outside of Edinburgh: 81.9p per litre). And there are plans to increase this price to discourage people from driving (eco friendly government - only they dont provide a valid alternative to driving).
People
People in London are miserable gits who don't speak to you unless they're drunk and asking for money. People in Yorkshire or Wales will speak to you whether you like it or not.
Seriously though - people here are friendly, but not outwardly friendly. What I mean by that is you shouldn't expect the "customer is always right" attitude you're used to in America. Oh no. Most definitely the salesperson is always right, and by god you'd better not trifle with them. Thankfully this is changing. Slowly. There is one good thing: Salespeople (except car salespeople, but that's another story) don't approach you unless you look approachable. I like this - especially as I have been acosted in Canada by a salesperson in a lingerie store (buying for my wife, not me!) - somewhere I'd rather just be discreet and leave as soon as possible!
Computers
This is the worst - and most likely to scare you off. It's got me thinking about leaving for the US or Canada...
We have no DSL yet (some trials perhaps). We have very little cable internet yet. High speed internet access is a myth here. Unless you live in Guildford apparently. A T1 is about 20k pounds per year. Even ISDN is extortionate. We pay by the minute for internet access - my bill is about 150 pounds per month.
Health service
Our health service is free (You pay a small percentage tax from your salary for it). And it SUCKS. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise - if they try to they've either never had a serious illness, or they don't know any better. I've got nothing good to say about the health service here - except that the people who work for it are angels - the quality of the service is not their fault, it's financial. Our NHS doctors work something like 80hrs/week (would you want someone that tired working on you?) and our nurses work longer. I could relay some horror stories about the NHS here but I'll not waste my time.
OK, now that I've scared you off, I'll say that England is beautiful. It's a stunning country with huge amounts of history and lovely people. For that alone it's worth living here. And the pay rate for IT contractors means you'll have a big house, a nice car, and be able to pay for private health care. You still won't get high speed internet access though
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Your knowledge of security rules you out of most jobs in the UK, especially Universities, Research Labs, etc.
I -can- tell you that the figures for salaries covers the private sector. Public sector employees can expect 1/2 of that, if they're lucky. Also, the phenominal VAT that the oh-so-generous Conservative Government left England with eats your pay like nothing else.
(Translation for Americans: VAT is the UK version of sales tax. When I left England, it was at 17.5%.)
Oh, also, if you smoke, drink lots, or like to drive large cars, don't bother going to England. Tobacco, alchohol and petrol are taxed through the nose.
In other words, gross salary (other than being literally gross, in England) isn't everything you need to consider. There's the cost of living, too.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Nick (who can't wait for his mountaineering trip in France/Switzerland/Italy this summer.)
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
I'm a Montrealer in exile in Mountain View (we could get a beer sometime!)
/., who, if they moved to Montreal, would find it practically impossible to register in an English school. The abolition of the parochial school boards doesn't change that.
:^)
When I lived on the Plateau (five years ago), it's true that $500 would get you good housing on the Plateau - $300 in Villeray and even less in ParkEx or NDG. (I won't speak of that awful place known as Cote-des-Neiges.) I just went back and found rents were much higher. $800 is a slightly high estimate. I found apts on Rachel between St Laurent and St Denis running in the $700-$900 range. On De Lorimier, it was a couple hundred cheaper. It seems times are good on the Plateau - rents are as high there as in Outremont.
Cheap housing is still to be found in NDG. Monkland Ave is apparently where poor artists live these days.
Only people who have attended an English school in Canada, or whose parents or siblings did, can register in English schools in Quebec. (That's not Bill 101 either - it's the same for French schools outside of Quebec. Turns out this silliness is actually in the constitution.) I intended that for the non-Canadians on
Personally, that doesn't bother me, I'd like to see my kids in French school - I used to date one of the teachers at the Ecole International. Chus ben et bel bilingue, moe'! But, I can see how it might be a turn off for Americans.
I have a couple more stock disbursements coming, and since company competes directly with Microsoft, I figure the anti-trust case has to do our stock some good. Once I see that cash, and pay off the rest of my debts, I'm going to circulate my CV in Montreal. I figure somebody must be hiring UNIX techs, and I'll take the lower pay. I miss the place too - I spent a week there with my fiancee in September and she fell in love with the place. She hasn't seen it in winter yet, but what's life without some surprises?
God, I could kill for a smoked meat sandwich with poutine and a brio. I guess it must be lunchtime.
You know MS Office? Can you write macros in VB? If so, you are now an experienced VB programmer. Written a web page? You are an experienced web engineer, with a background in cross-browser compliant development. Ever worked in an office with both UNIX and NT? You have experience in highly hetrogenous networked environments.
Your background isn't in help desks, it's in end-user assistance. SW/HW testing, advanced software technologies, ISP management (how many users? A few thousand maybe? That'll impress them.)
Use more buzzwords! Use more abbreviations! Remember, you're an engineer!! (I hear all you guys who actually got engineering degrees snickering in the background. So what? None of you are HR people.)
Operating Systems: MacOS v6-9, Solaris/SunOS 1.x-2.x, Windows3.1, 95 and NT.
Productivity systems: MS Office, Applix, CorelOffice (name some more - if you've never used them, go to a software store and play with the demos)
Hardware: Macintosh - 680x0 and PPC-based systems, PC's - 386-Pentium III, Sun SPARC and UltraSPARC. Various high-end computing platforms.
Networking systems: Server administration of: e-mail systems, AppleTalk, NetBIOS, TCP/IP, NFS, FTP and web servers...
Apply for jobs that you're not qualified for. Apply actively - posting your resume on Monster won't do it.
Don't push it too much, apply for jobs where you're pretty sure you can acquire the skills you need. Then, with a buzzword compliant resume to get you in the door, tell them at the interview that you're sure you learn quickly and expect to be on the ball in short order. Remember, it's their job to tell you you're not qualified, not yours.
It took me about a year, going through four jobs, to jump from $8/hr to about $40, and that's most of what I did. Now, at each job, I did actually learn the skills I set out to acquire there. In that year I learned to code and I learned UNIX. By the time I quit a job, I was always qualified for it.
My mother and brother live in Winnipeg, but I hate the place - okay, I'm biased. :^)
Vacation time in Silicon Valley: if you're a contractor (as many are) there is no paid vacation time. Any unpaid time you take off is by negociation between you and your employer. At my company, you get ten paid days off, and a free paid week between Christmas and New Years. Ten paid days is the standard here, plus the official holidays.
Saskatchewan, ewww! I don't think I could take Newfoundland either, although I gather you can buy a house for under $5000 there.
I came to the US the first time when I was 9. My father was in graduate school on a student visa. Three years later, he had a Master's and had finished classwork for his PhD when he got a job offer from a public college in New Jersey. We applied for green cards.
The first year, his university and the college agreed to call his employment part of his PhD training, so he could stay on his student visa and get paid. Legally, they could only do that for a year. The second year, they gave him a loan to cover his salary, and agreed to write it off at the end of the year. I'm pretty sure that's illegal - but hey, who am I to complain. I don't know the details of the loophole they used.
The third year, about mid way through, we got our green cards. Now, this was a public college, the state dept of Ed was pressuring the INS all the way or it would have taken twice as long. This was in the middle of the Reagan years - the INS was notoriously slow.
Immigrating to Canada: I expect to go back to Canada with my soon to be wife, and American. I am told it takes about 4 months to process that kind of application and I get to do it through Employment and Immigration Canada rather than Quebec. Quebec only handles economic migration - family unification and refugees are still handled by the feds.
If you immigrate to Quebec, you have to stay in Quebec until you're a landed immigrant. You can change jobs while you wait - even if you're sponsored I think - but if you spend too much time unemployed, they kick you out.
Landed status still takes a couple of years. Quebec also usually favours French speaking immigrants, but there are exceptions, especially for those in technology.
Welcome to Canada! The winters suck, but the rest is worth it.
In Silicon Valley, relatively inexperienced computer techs can easily pull in over US$60,000 a year. Skilled people can get $100,000 or more with fairly little trouble. (My fiancee who hasn't even finished her BA in German translation makes $53/hr as an intranet contractor here.) Regular empolyees also benifit usually from significant bonuses in stock and options.
:^) Except for Ontario, public universities are far less expensive than state schools in the United States, and quality of education is higher than the US average.
This is certainly a lot of money in an America where median household incomes are about US$38,000/yr and most people have no significant assets. (This is only slightly better than 1979 household medians.)
However, rent here will kill you. A two bedroom apt on the Peninsula starts at $1500/mo in Mountain View or Sunnyvale and goes up to $3000 in Palo Alto or Menlo Park. Studios start at $1000. Services - like eating in a restaurant - are fairly expensive. Gas is relatively expensive compared to the rest of the US ($1.60 a gallon isn't unheard of). Car insurance can be high. And commuting to work is horrible. There is no public transit worth a damn. Buses and light rail in Santa Clara county cost $1.25, $2.00 in San Mateo or to get over the Dumbarton Bridge, and $1.25 in Alameda. BART and Caltrain cost between $1.10 and $8.00 each way depending on how far you're going.
Trust me, that high salary doesn't go nearly as far as you might hope, and quality of life suffers in a lot of unexpected ways.
Entertainment in Silicon Valley: there is none. There are a few movie theatres owned by a quasi-monopoly called Century Theatres. Ticket prices are roughly US$8.50. There is a little bit of high-brow culture in the south bay, but not much and prices are high. San Francisco is better, but you can't drive there very easily and parking is a nightmare. After the first few attempts, you'll stop trying.
Fry's Electronics is perhaps the most entertaining place in the bay area.
Cable modems are available in many areas, starting at US$50/mo with US$150 to install. DSL runs around $400 to install, and about $80/mo for decent bandwidth.
If you work in tech as a regular employee, life, disability and medical insurance is usually included, and usually included a PPO option that is far better than the HMO plans that the peasants get. If you are a contractor, expect to pay a lot for an HMO plan and get poor service.
Now, Canadian tech incomes are lower, but in general no more than 20 or 30% lower. Usually, a tech job in Canada pays the same number of dollers as a comparable job in the US, but Canadian dollars are worth 23% less.
Cost of a movie ticket in Montreal is about CAN$10 (US$6.70). Rent on a two bedroom apartment in Montreal on the Plateau (artsy, yuppie area) is about CAN$800 (US$540). Montreal and Toronto offer comprehensive and rapid public transit. In Montreal a ticket costs CAN$1.25 ($US0.85) and a pass cost less that CAN$50/mo. Most Canadian cities offer at the very least comprehensive, regular bus service. In Toronto, as I understand it, prices are higher than in Montreal, and in Ottawa they are lower. Gasoline in Canada is about the same price as in California.
Quality of life issues: even Winnipeg (Canada's version of hell) has more cultural options than San Jose. Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto compare favourably with many European capitals in this respect. And you can get at least as many channels on cable in Canada as in California.
Cable modems and DSL in Canada cost about CAN$40/mo (US$27) and are available in nearly all core metropolitan areas. Restaurant prices in Montreal are roughly half (yes, 50%) of Silicon Valley prices.
Although many Canadians complain about their socialised medical services (and there are some genuine problems), they remain superior to the American HMOs I've had, and you keep your benefits even if unemployed. There is basically no paperwork when you see a physician, and you can see any doctor you choose. Most tech companies offer some form of supplimental medical insurance as a benefit - usually covering prescription and dental care which are outside normal medical coverage.
Schools in Canada are generally excellent (at least by comparison to the California public school system), and private and religious education is partially or wholly subsidised in most of Canada. Naturally, if you plan to move to Quebec, the only schools you can send your children to are in French - la vie est dure.
Taxes in Canada are somewhat higher than in the US, but not excessively so for those in middle income brackets. There are fewer convienient loopholes, but equivalents of the IRA and 401k are available. Taxes are considerably lower than in the UK or Ireland. (If you plan to be a billionaire, forget Canada - Bermuda is a much better choice.)
As I understand it, prices in New York and Boston are comparable to those in Silicon Valley, but Austin, Provo, Boise, Ann Arbor, Chicago and Atlanta (supposedly where the new tech companies are going) are generally much cheaper. I don't know from personal experience - I have lived in some of those places, but only many years ago. In other parts of the US, there are real bargains. A tech income in Omaha, Memphis, Houston or somewhere else well off the beaten track will probably enable you to live like a king, but I can't stand most of those places. If you can, by all means go for it.
As for me, as soon as my debts are paid off, I'm going back to Canada.
I have had some trouble with finding places to list my resume. Anyone have any experience with European firms and what job sites they look at?
In a note to firms: I graduate with a BS in CS this May. I have close family ties to the Netherlands and am ready for work in May of 2000. Check out my resume if you would like to.
I just went through all of this same stuff myself being a recent college grad. I pretty much looked at the large consulting companies. It seems that most companies will start coders at $42,000 range with a signing bonus of ~$2000. The is the "middle ground" though. I have seen some start at $55,000 with a $5,000 bonus (in NYC) to salaries as low as $37,500 + $1500 bonus (in RI where the cost of living is a bit lower)
These figures would be for a entry level job into some type of large consulting company. AS far as startups go, you can probably squeeze more money out of them if you have "mad skills."
Now salary is very important, but there are also many other factors to look at when choosing a company that will effect your finances. Other important factors are out of pocket expenses for medical, dental and vision. How much will your company match for a 401k plan? How many years until you are vested?? If you go away for business will they pay to put your pets in a kennel?? (It can get expensive!) Is there a profit share/stock option plan. These "fringe" benefits can add up to be a lot of extra money.
Now there is a joke for you. The upper limit is around $30K for for the IT Manager at a mid sized company ( 50 to 200 employees ).
Cost of living is higher than in the US since everything costs more. Most things have draconian import duty ( charged on retail value ). fortunately Computer stuff is exempt from import duty so you can save a bundle by buying off EBay etc...
If you like nice even, warm weather and you should come here though.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
i only make $8 an hour for doing PC/LAN support and simple system admin tasks
im up for a raise in two months...but it wont be more than $2 an hour.
i live in the DC metro area...
someone kill me. =P
or give me a better job. PLLEEAASSSE!
Global warming is good for you!
Goto www.telejob.ch and get a job ...
Tobi
I am a software developer-contractor with $100/hour rate. I am toying with the idea of spending summer in UK, is it possible to get 3-4mo contract there ? If yes, what kind of rate can I expect ? Well, the bottom has pretty much dropped out of the UK contract market at the moment. Mine expires in 3 weeks, and there's almost nothing available. Everyone's waiting until post-Y2K before even considering taking on new contractors. There's a few short term contracts available, and I'll probably have to take one until the market picks up again (which people seem to think will be around March). I even saw a one week contract as a Linux trainer :-) Rates are depressingly low at the moment -- around £40/hour, although I'm hoping they'll pick up again. If you go for financial institutions in the City of London, you're looking more at £55 to £75 per hour. 3-4 month contracts are very common, although you may need to check about work permits and the like.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Ignore the salaries listed there. They usually only list the lower end of the spectrum. You can certainly get 60k+ in the City, and 45k elsewhere in London. I'm not saying it's common, and you need a certain amount of experience to get that sort of money, but it doesn't top out at the 35/40k you're quoting.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
FWIW, I'm currently on £50/hour in London, and am looking for more Unix contract work. I'd consider a permanent position, but not for less than £50,000 a year, and even then, I'd have to think twice about it. I like the freedom of contracting.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
The going rate in the Netherlands would be about US$39.000 per year. Entered your information on http://www.intermediair.nl/ using the following information:
- College-degree,
- >4yrs experience in IT,
- 31-35 yrs old
Most of Europe has the same shortage in IT-staff as the US, pushing up the rates.
No. Atlanta is just hot. The real action is in Tulsa, the networking capitol of the US, home to WorldCom and Williams Communications. The cost of living here is extremely low and salaries are quite competative.
I will be going to DC this Summer with a salary of $60,000 right out of college. The DC market is very hot.
-- Solaris Central - http://w
Actually most companies are now having you sign away your brain and various other rights during the hiring process. It doesn't violate the Bill of Rights if you sign your rights away.
Of course it doesn't help any that all the forms have something along the lines of ("Employment conditional on acceptance of these terms.")
OTOH a law that outright prohibits people talking about their salaries would probably fall into your above case.
Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
we have better beer!
So long, and thanks for all the Phish
"Please submit salary expectations"
One thing I would suggest is to never give them your salary expectations. That gives them a leg up on the negotiations. Let them offer you what they think your are worth after interviewing you.
Personally I don't apply for jobs that say things like "Salary history required to apply". They can take a hike. And if they want to know what I expect I say that salary is negotiable (which ougt to go w/o saying but it is a nice way to put it).
You might want to check out Linuxmall in Denver. http://www.linuxmall.com I heard that they are looking for a technical writer.
Walter
UNIX doesn't have a monopoly on Good Ideas, it just owns most of them. --Alan Cox
Technically I'm under a 1-year noncompete and 2-year IP ownership thing, which is part of how this company controls its employees; they made very strong implications when I was interviewing with them that there wasn't such an agreement, and of course, after spending a few thousand dollars to get my sorry self out here, they give me this very anti-freedom contract to sign - what was I going to do, say "I can't take this job" and be homeless/penniless? It wasn't an option, especially since I had dragged two of my friends out here with me. Fortunately, the contract is phrased in such a way that it's only really valid in Virginia, and if they ever try to take me to court, I'd have a very strong argument that they coerced me into signing it to begin with (which they did; when I was simply dumbfounded by the contract, the company president spent half an hour basically brainwashing me into thinking that the contract was for my good and not the company's - complete bullshit, of course). They also coerced me into taciturnly giving up potential rights to quite a few graphics-related algorithms I developed in college which would have been very useful for them. Fortunately I managed to avoid making it possible for them to claim I'd even thought about any of them at work, which I hadn't.
Regardless, I think going to grad school is right for me, and your response to my post was very helpful in solidifying that notion. Many thanks. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
I'm leaving Virginia, but I already left the company a couple months ago. It was a small company, however, and they're competent - well, enough to be dangerous, anyway. But again, aside from what I put down on my 'prior inventions' page on the contract (which they simply threw out anyway, part of their coersion tactics), I never divulged any information to them on any algorithms I came up with on my own time, and I made a concsious (and successful) effort to not come up with anything new and useful while working for them.
As far as which grad school, I don't feel that I really need to go to a university with an extreme specialization in VR or graphics. The university I'm going back to has enough to make me happy; the department is small, but very diverse, but not so diverse that it's incredibly fragmented and spread thin. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
For me, happiness requires an academic setting. It's just the way I am. I meant nothing controversial by my last statement, which was, I believe, originally directed specifically towards academically-minded individuals such as myself. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
And I'm in northern Virginia, as I think I said elsewhere. Fairfax. though it looks like I'll be out of here as soon as next Friday.
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
For the off-topic bit: I have come to realize that the industry isn't for me. Academia is where I belong. I'm not a mercenary programmer. So of course, after a few months of living relatively large (figuring I'd be gainfully employed for a long time) I'm having my world kinda crash down around me, financially anyway. It doesn't help at all that I incurred some debt in moving out here which I, very stupidly, put off paying back. All in all, I'd have about broken even for the whole experience were it not for the various tech toys I suddenly found myself able to buy... Even though I rationally know that grad school is best for me, and emotionally know it as well, it just doesn't help to have all you mercenary types rubbing my nose in what kinds of salary I'm giving up. :)
I've never been into computing and programming for the money, except for a brief period of time when I was graduating college and I got suckered into putting off my happiness for the promises of getting to keep doing the cool stuff while also making enough money to live very comfortably. Of course, those promises never panned out, and the company I got hired by turned out to be nothing more than a pair of two-bit swindlers doing whatever they could to control spineless employees who didn't know better and weren't at liberty to leave for a variety of reasons.
I need to give some advice to academic types who might be reading this thread: which do you prefer, money or happiness?
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
Apparently, the fact that salaries and money matters are usually discussed less openly in Europe, and esp. in France, leads to the job market being less open about it, and the salaries to be actually LESSER. Tax also have something to do with it, but all considered ...
Working as a sysadmin / developer / head tech. person for a small web company, I make about $40k a year. That's rather good here compared to what's OFFERED usually. Note the emphasis on OFFERED ... that means that if you blindly accept the initial offer on a job interview, you'll get much less than that ... however you're going to be extremely surprised to notice that, as you tell them to "fuck off" and get up to leave, they quickly apologize and timidly ask you to stay and offer something better.
Also the policy on stock options around here (France) is not exactly clear, and actually the law on it isn't clear.
Funny story: my cousin, who worked in microelectronics in the valley making good money for 18 months, came back and was looking for a short term job doing web stuff. He went to one service company, they did'nt want to discuss salary on the phone. On the spot they offered him ... $2000 a month! What a joke. He laughed at them and they seemed not to understand! "You're wasting my time", he told them, "don't you have any idea what the market is?" And indeed, he quickly found something much better paid.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Unless you are aged 18-21 and you live somewhere that doesn't allow under-21s to buy alcohol, tax or no tax. (Although other countries are better still of course.)
Tobacco is expensive, but I don't think the costs of running a car are much worse than elsewhere in Europe. (IIRC Germany has the most large cars of any European country, the UK is second.)
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
... Compared to Silly Valley. I am currently looking at houses in the Valley from DC and I am doing all that I can to get my new boss to let me tele-commute. They could pay me less and fly me out there weekly for less than I would want to live out there and it looks like that is what they are going to do.
... Now if I could just get them to hire the entire team out here...
Anyway, Salary is the topic so: I have the best of both worlds. I am getting a Silly Valley salary and live near DC. Out far enough that the cost of living is reasonable but close enough to be able to enjoy the ammenities of a large city.
Suburbia RULES!!
Summary: $80-100k or somewhere in between.
This is not the sig you are looking for...
Factor into this the superb health care, education, transport infrastructure and the fact that Switzerland is simply the most beautiful place on the planet and I'd work there for free...
Well, where does the money come from to buy ski-passes?
But seriously, Switzerland is one of the countries that is quite serious about not letting just about anybody into the country "for good".
Fine if you come skiing, fine if you come and deliver some (big) machine and need to fine-tune it for a week. Not fine if you want to come and just work for a Swiss company, and see how long you can stay.
Roger.
Cost of living has a lot to do with variations in salary between places. Of course, not putting salaries on the job description... I can't figure out why they're doing that, unless they want to possibly get you for less than what they would have gotten you for if they had given a price.
In the Northeastern US (New York City surrounding area) the avg salary for a UNIX admin with a few years experience is anywhere from US$65k-US$100k/year. It can go into the US$140+ if they also know alot about Databases as well, or Network Security.
... many other things too) with only 4 yrs in tech, and a University degree in Political Science!! and make about US$57k (CDN$83,836.00) before bonuses and stock options, with full medical benefits and insurance. Guess what, though, my wife is pregnant and not working, and we live in a 4 room apartment b/c we can't afford the downpayment on a house. The housing in this area is very expensive (for decent property and a nice house in a nice town at least US$200k-US$350k), and if you move into cheaper Eastern Penn. or Southern NY state, you have to drive far to work, b/c there aren't many tech jobs in the STIX yet.
....it's all relative.
I Admin our UNIX and NT test servers, run a QA computer lab here, do website security and web work, admin our FTP box, help with disaster recovery planning (etc
So,
==============================
Windows NT has crashed,
I am the Blue Screen of Death,
With 20k a year you can get along quite nicely...
hope this helps
I'm in Norway. :)
I've actually no formal education but still get paid well...
With well, I'm thinking in the line of $30-35000 a year.
Very well paid is ofcourse the double
In the Philadelphia area programmers not long out of college seem to be starting somewhere around 50K, but it really varies.
If you can talk to business people and solve their problems salaries climb very fast and seem to level out in the 75-85K range. If you are a C coder working as the lowest rung in a big team, it will take longer to get there. If you are a risk taker and go for contract work you can make twice (or half) of that.
If you are primarily interested in money, I think that Business application programming is the easiest way to get there. Especially if you know the ins and outs of a big system that a big company has made a multi-million dollar bet on (Oracle, Domino, SAP, etc.) It is gratifying to see how your work can truly raise productivity (and this is why you will be well rewarded), but it sure isn't sexy.
--Tim
http://www.ignite.net.au
Specifically, see the lifestyle implications section under Careers.
Enjoy,
Ralf
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
-Bertrand Russel
Check these sites out to investigate variations in COS (Cost of Living). I work in expensive Boulder, CO and I still need to make $4400 more to live in Pasadena, CA. Ouch!
Salary Calculator (includes foreign countries)
Versus Year
Various Sources
Compare cities side-by-side
A short article with a cost of living index list
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
Whilst I love Bristol, I found it impossible
;-)
to get a job in the Bristol area on more than
40K permenent. I'm now moving to Austin, Texas
as this will effectively triple my salary.
Contracting in Bristol tops out at about 60K -
not really worth it, especially considering
that 150 miles away in London 100K is easy
to get as a _permi_ let alone a contractor
(London is a horrible place to live..I did
6 months in the square mile - never again!)
The cost of living is higher if you live in
Clifton (Bristol), but you do get to get
blasted in the Corry Tap
The biggest problem I see in the job market in the
UK is differentiating yourself from the scum
who lie on their CVs. I've seen CVs claiming
8 years experience in Java (!). Managers also
don't seem to understand the value of certain
skills in the computing area.
Job agencies also seem to always overquote
salary, and hassle you continually with naff
jobs...
I personally would never pay a recent graduate
a large salary as I believe experience is
incredibly important in computing. A few years
of making mistakes can do the world of good...
More mad ramblings
Asmo
...stock options. Some companies offer options up front, in lieu of a higher salary. Granted, this is a gamble in a lot of cases, but with a competitive IT field and a raging stock market, it's nonetheless becoming more and more prevalent.
Where would one look to find information on living in the Netherlands, as an American?
I am a senior object oriented software architect with five years experiencence in Java, C++, Eiffel, Python, and Tcl.
What are the possibilities of my moving there and starting an IT consulting business? Are there restrictions on foreigners starting new businesses, or would I be in the clear?
If consulting isn't the way to go, what are the chances I might find a job in Amsterdam as an American? I've heard that if you're not an EU citizen you're screwed.
--Xar
That's about right for Canada. I've mostly seen between $38k and $48k CAD.
But salary's only a part of your compensation. Comparing benefits packages is much more difficult. What do their retirement benefits look like? Stock options? Discounted stock?
/peter
Wow... Graduates??? I'm only on £25K after 7 years....
The difference is probably because I'm in the North??
Tony
"Looking through all your comments I find this quite surprising. I thought that you guys/gals in the US were all on $80-$100K, but it seems that that isn't the case. It makes me feel slightly happier about my situation here in the UK."
Don't forget that this is a big country. Cost of living and salaries vary everywhere. For the record I live in Northern Virginia and it is quite typical to find programmers making between $80-$100k.
However, in June I just paid $300,000 for a house here. Don't get me wrong, this is a big house. But if I moved out to South Dakota or something I probably couldn't buy a house for that much if I wanted to. I doubt they make them big enough; the cost of living there is much lower. They also don't make as much though.
What I would be interested in seeing is a national or global chart of ratios of cost of living vs. average income. This would be very telling.
For example, supposedly Fairfax County, VA and Orange County, CA keep swapping places for highest average income. However, based on my limited research, the cost of living here in Fairface County is much lower.
The ratios would be very telling.
-Paul
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
I see all of you guys griping about wages, or at least wishing for more pay on this thread and I just HAD to say something. My company (of which I am a senior engineer) is actively recruiting software engineers who can code (in order of preference) perl,c,java. We are most interested in proven ability, not some stupid CS degree, so if you are in Vancouver and want to work in XML Search engine / E-Business development, and make more than 40K, go to www.xmlglobal.com and check out our HR material. We are also looking for kick-ass linux/unix sysadmins.
--------- Matt
*snort*
:)
--------- Matt
Huh? Tax is less than 30 per cent till about USD 25k - 30k (the tax rate vavies slightly depending on where you live). Then there's the sales tax (add 25 per cent to the non taxed prices), but here's what throws a lot of people off track -- the sales tax is included in the advertised price, in the US the tax is added when you pay. The taxation systems also tax different things, in the US the property tax is about five times higher than in Sweden! In the EU healthcare is included in the tax. Bottom line is: I like it back home, some things are a little more expensive, but not much, and while the beer is a lot more expensive -- at least it's real beer :-)
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
--- Jubal Harshaw
Uhm, If you're going to compare the total cost of an employee to what that person get's after all 'taxes' are paid for different countries you'll have to add a lot of things to the 'tax' a person in the US pays.
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
Has it ever occurred to you that God might be a committee?
--- Jubal Harshaw
General consensus around here is that they're all freaky!
Scott (former tech writer)
Slashdot: Liberal News for Nerds. Liberal Stuff that Matters.
Between .nl and .us, I've heard that $1=NLG1 when talking about salaries. I've worked in Germany and Switzerland as well, and strangely enough that holds there, too (more or less): $1 = DEM 1 = SFR 1 = NLG 1, if you ask around 100.000 of the local things you have a nice salary to live off...
OBTW: if you're a Java coder and want to try out Dutch fringe benefits, mail me.
I am looking for a city with lots of bandwidth, decent nightlife, friendly people, and money.
San Diego, CA sounds nice to me right now... anyone know of any other cities?
- Hugh Buchanan
- Userfriendly.com
>Huh? Tax is less than 30 per cent till about USD
>25k - 30k (the tax rate vavies slightly
>depending on where you live).
The trick is that the ~30% income tax (and at higher salaries, 1+% federal income tax) are not the only taxes paid. I'm a freelancing consultant and I know more precisely how my income is taxed. My accountant has advised me to set aside to 3/4 of my income for taxes and fees.
That is a problem, since employers need to take all the taxes and fees into account. The taxes scale so that if you (as an employee) have a salary of sek 30k/month (a fair-to-good salary for an IT proffesional in Sweden) and get a raise of 3k, the employer needs to pay at least some sek 6k extra per month (to pay your raise plus taxes and fees). Then you pay federal and county taxes on the income raise and end up with at most sek 1.5k extra per month.
Stock options are not a viable alternative as a bonus in Sweden, due to the tax rules. They go something like this: first the value of the stock options are taxed as if they were salary. When you sell the vested stock you get the joy of paying another flat 30% tax on the yield (sell value minus initial value, before the first taxation).
Then we have the 25% VAT and extra taxes well above 50% on tobacco, alcohol, gasoline. And extra taxation of electricity, homes, you name it. Sigh.
For the salary comparison: I charge SEK 600/hour (about US$75), after I've paid _all_ taxes (which include, school for me and my children, a cheap pension plan, medical care for everyone I know and a few others, etc) this leaves me with some SEK 24k (US$ 3k) if i have full time work. My one room apartment costs about SEK 2.3k (US$288) per month (living downtown is usually more expensive, I inherited some money and got rid of about half of my loan for buying the apartment). I'm paid well by Swedish standards, am fluent in at least 5 computer languages and two human languages. No degree yet, but I'm still working on my Master of CS/Maths.
A significant number of UK geeks are self employed and hire themselves out on contracts of 3 months or more - this may be about to change as the government attempts to change the tax laws.
:-)
;->. Employee protection is better than that of America, and with a Labour government in power this is increasing, but less rapidly than some people feared.
Banking & Finance related computing posts in London are probably the best paid, with contract rates of 3000UK+ pounds ($5000) per week being rumoured if you have 5 or more years experience. More typical rates are around 1000-2000UK pounds per week, again with about 5 years experience. The figures I've quoted are gross and do not take into account the fact that being self employed you do not get
* holiday entitlements,
* company pensions/ health insurance
* cars
* social club memberships
* training etc
unless you set them up yourself.
I can't comment on graduate salaries, but I suspect that a graduate geek will earn around 17-25,000UKP ($27-40,000) per annum. Higher salaries again may apply in the SE/London area, and lower the further away from London you get. My starting salary in 1985 was 7800UKP ($12000) as a graduate working for a major defence avionics company!
Although the UK is small compared to the US, there's a huge regional range in salaries, especially London/SE England compared to the rest of the country.
Cost of living in England is quite high, according to most opinions, with petrol, motor cars, beer, tobacco and electronic equipment either attracting a lot of tax or being more highly priced than the rest of the EU. London itself can be a very expensive place to live. On the plus side we do have a reasonable National Health Service, although if you would like to be operated on within two years you are well advised to back that up with health insurance
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I work for a small (under 50) s/w company in the SF bay area. A short time back we made an offer to a fresh CS grad from UC Berkeley. We offered him around US$60K. I was amazed, I thought that was more than generous. Well, he wound up taking another offer for $78K !! This is a 22-year-old grad with NO experience! Ah well...
Go back and read the entire list of postings.
Then call the headhunters who post.
********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
A friend of mine was hired by a large German ISP last year, on entry level, no university degree (but a 2-year technical degree) to do general network and cgi-bin (perl) programming.
;-)
He was offered 36000 DM pre-tax a year, which would be re-nogiated after a year (he hoped to make 45000 pre tax after one year). He took the job.
I'm not going to disclose what I earn, sorry, but it IS more than my parents makes after 30 years of work experience.
I get overtime as 1:1 additional days off... works for me.
Your friend made the mistake to start at 2/3 of a normal salary I think.
I can confirm this. I'm a Student Worker (that's right, I have no degree yet), I have no formal IT education, and I do exactly the same as Bartmoss' friend; i.e. a little Perl (CGI and web-site maint.) and the company I'm working for is paying me DM 36 / hour.
Of course I'd already acquired a little experience with their web-site working for one of their contracters; Still, keep in mind I'm not even a CS student (Linguistics) so my 'only' qualification is that I don't run screaming when I see a command line (Thank you Linux!) and that I picked up some Perl in my spare time (Thank you Larry!)
Chris
San Francisco values: compassion, tolerance, respect, intelligence
I used to work in Venezuela and I was getting $28K/year. I'm currently in the US but I'm going back to my home country now that they will pay me $40K with a $10K bonus at the end of the year. (The company pays the taxes for me, so I get the full amount). The cost of living is ok, the women are beautiful... I'm just tired of people on the subway yelling "Go back to your F%!%#ing country".... so I guess I'll do just that :)
a T1 cost between $350-$600/mo depending upon location. ISDN arrived 2 years ago. but that's irrelevant since the bandwidth off-island is $20k/mo/E1.
housing for a 1BR is about $1000/mo for "on the beach in the tourist town" and $600/mo for someplace safe enough for a machine rack. a car is a requirement (and costs $1500-$2000 to ship each way), and scuba gear is strongly recommended.
the people are amazingly friendly and slightly quirky as a bonus; i guess you would have to be if you regularly shrugged off typhoons, earthquakes, and airplane crashes.
For the non-merkins here, let me add another angle to the discussion.
:-)
Canadian immigration procedures seem to be a lot faster, more predictable, and more fair than the US ones.
Using mainstream cases (employment-based, no "exceptional performance" or other "fast" special cases in US green card process) I have the following (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or a statistician or an immigration specialist, other than about my own case. If you find important errors in the information below do a good deed and let us all know, and please talk to a lawyer before you act):
US green card: Best case start-to-finish is 2 years, assuming you've got that much left in your H-1B to go for consular processing. If you go for adjustment of status right now you'll be in a black hole for an unknown number of years. The INS has stopped processing employment based AOS since last March or so. Remember that during GC processing, you must stay with the sponsoring employer.
Canadian PR: My lawyer claims 5-6 months if no interview is required, 11-12 if an interview is required. Very interested to hear about other peoples' experiences. When applying as an independent immigrant there's no "sponsoring employer".
US GC: Employment-based GC means you make a commitment to stay with sponsoring employer "indefinitely". That means that at the time you get the green card you have that intention, although obviously unexpected changes in circumstances would explain you leaving your sponsoring employer. Again, see a lawyer. But don't think that your company's HR and your boss don't know about this one.
Canadian PR: You're a free agent as soon as you land. Some restrictions do apply re: Quebec vs. non-Quebec residence and you do need to continue to be a professional geek if that's what you promised you'd be. But you wouldn't have a problem with that, would you? Again, see a lawyer for real legal advice.
It was a hard decision and I do love the Bay Area, but I've had it with being an (admittedly well-paid) indentured servant. Freedom is indeed worth quite a bit of money, so if all goes well, next year, Hello Vancouver (or Toronto).
Comments most definitely welcome, especially from Canadians offering free advice
I talked to one guy recently who just finished his PhD in physics (something completely esoteric - I think it was gravitation), and now got a job with a switch manufacturer. He gets 85kDM, which is some 40k$. This does for a rather comfortable living in southern Germany - housing is very expensive, petrol too, and taxes are medium to high.
However, he got a contract for 35 hrs/week and works 35 hrs/week! Add 5 weeks paid holidays a year, and you finally have money to spend and time to spend it!
Hurricane Application Group, Dept of Meteorology Control, Ministry of Proactive Defense
Don't forget about the life-balance thing. Geeks seem to overlook this and then complain about it, but based on the ravenous job market, there is no excuse other than inertia. If you're looking already, make sure you pick a company based on more than just $$$.
/. story about tech sweatshops. Bear that in mind when looking at employers. You can get a big salary and lots of options but it may not be worth it if you are expected to work 80 hours a week. Or, you may be expected to be on call 24/7, which is a hell of a lot more than the 45-55 hours which are typical of the industry. Asking what happens salary wise when you work 100 hours in a week can be very eye-opening. I got an answer from one employer of "nothing, you are expected to do a job, however long that takes." And guess what the hours looked like...
If you look back a few weeks(?) you will see a
Also, what about the knowledge-sharing? If you are so important, will they ever let you take a vacation and leave you alone? The geeky analogy is clustering - you don't want to be a single point of failure or the pointy-haired ones will never want to let you out of their sight, much less out of town for a week. Will you be working on Xmas eve, New year's eve? Will you get yelled at if you take a 75 minute lunch?
Ask about things like how project deadlines are set. There needs to be a process - "whenever I need it done by" isn't going to be very fair to you. You should be involved in the process of setting deadlines, or else it's always going to be based on when they want it done (yesterday), not when it is feasible to do.
If you ever want to go make friends, find/retain a significant other, and see your family, think about more than just the cash and options.
Shameless plug: I like to think I have found a great employer who pays market rate *and* has a great culture, and particularly has a core value of life balance. E-mail me if you are interested - jamie@white-mountain.org .
Advice to geeks, especially ones who haven't been in the job market for very long: Be careful not to reduce a job opportunity's value down to a dollar figure. Geeks seem to overlook this and then complain about how much their job sucks, but based on the ravenous job market, there's really no excuse other than inertia. If you're looking now, make sure you consider the qualitative properties of a job.
:)
If you look back a few weeks you will see a story about working in a tech sweatshop. Bear that in mind when looking at employers. You can get a big salary and lots of options but it may not be worth it if you are expected to work 80 hours a week. Or, you may be expected to be on call 24/7, which is a hell of a lot more than the 45-55 hours which are typical of the industry. Asking what happens salary wise when you work 100 hours in a week can be very eye-opening. I got an answer from one employer of "nothing, you are expected to do a job, however long that takes." And guess what the hours looked like...
Also, what about knowledge management? Are you doing the same work that has been done before by co-workers? How will you find someone who has done what you are doing? Yeah, trailblazing is fun and all, but rediscovering known bugs isn't especially fun. Also, there should be KM from you to the rest of the organization. Being the main tech go-to guy is dangerous. If you are so important, will they ever let you take a vacation and leave you alone? The geeky analogy is clustering - you don't want to be a single point of failure or the pointy-haired ones will never want to let you out of their sight, much less out of town for a week. Will you be working on Xmas eve, New year's eve? Will you get yelled at if you take a 75 minute lunch?
What is the technology environment? Just because you like *nix doesn't mean your boss does. Will you be forced to use something you don't want to? What is the email environment? Who makes these decisions and how binding are they on the individual? Will you be forced to run Win98 and Outlook just because the MS Exchange sales pitch to the IT manager was slick? How developed is the company intranet? What if you have something useful to post - what is the process for getting your info out there?
If you are looking at a startup, what is the non-stock risk factor? For example, is the current boss going to be replaced by a "real CEO" (answer: almost certainly). What will this CEO's vision be, if any? Will the office move to an inconvenient location? Will you be sure to get a paycheck every time, on time? Are they hiring so fast that a few (or a lot of) a-holes are bound to get in as well? Will they be identified and fired, or will they become your boss?
Ask about things like how project deadlines are set. There needs to be a process - "whenever I need it done by" isn't going to be very fair to you. You should be involved in the process of setting deadlines, or else it's always going to be based on when they want it done (yesterday), not when it is feasible to do.
Consider the commute. If you can take public transportation, that may mean that you can sell your car and save $hundreds a month, or at least you can get back productive time (laptop or magazine on the subway / bus). Plus, sitting in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour each way is a serious pain in the butt, and it doesn't ever really get better unless you move.
If you ever want to go make friends, find/retain a significant other, and see your family, think about more than just the cash and options.
Shameless plug: I like to think I have found a great employer who pays market rate *and* has a great culture, and particularly has a core value of life balance. E-mail me if you are interested - jamie.flournoy@viant.com. Include a resume if you want, of course
In Brazil, the monthly salary in the IT field ranges from R$600 (~$300) as the worst-case scenario for entry-level programmers in small companies, to R$4K to 6K (~$2000-3000) for the best technical jobs in large companies. (Managers may get a lot more than that.) Of course, you don't really want to live here; the economy is floundering, the education and healthcare systems suck majorly, corruption and crime run amok, and the government is little more than a big bloated bunch of incompetent bureaucrats. And all that the average person cares about is beach, soccer, beer and half-naked dancing women. (Oh yeah, that reminds me - none of the aforementioned half-naked dancing women are ever going to go out with you - the average Brazilian woman is a middle-aged illiterate homeless 200-pound hag with three kids who smokes too much.)
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
InforWorld does an annual salary survey. The 1999 survey is here. They do a decent job of surveys in various IT areas. They survey a wide variety of occupationas and locations from their readership so they survey isn't exactly perfect.
You might find info for the US at the the Census Bureau.
Canada is a pretty large place so you'd better watch those blanket statements about salaries in Canada. Here in the Nation's capitol (Ottawa, not Toronto), starting salaries coming out of University are around the $40k mark - it can be higher or lower depending on the company and the skill set/experience you have.
However, if you were to move to Nova Scotia, you're probably looking at $30k starting out.. but again, you have to look at the cost of living/lifestyle differences.
I'd have to honestly say that the choice to live in Canada is mostly a lifestyle choice. After taxes, that $40k salary will work out to just over $20k.. which is still quite a bit to live on in Canada.. however, the high taxes are also one one of the main reasons Canadians head south of the border.
I recently spent a lot of time in the Silicon Valley where everyone seems to be approaching the $100k (US) mark, but no one can afford to live a decent life (what I consider a decent life) unless they're a millionaire, so.. what's the point?
(all the $ values I listed above are Canadian dollars unless I specified otherwise..)
I had to laugh at some of the postings. The "expertise" requirements in some cases were absurd. One place wanted 23 years of ABAP/4 expertise. ABAP/4 wasn't even a pipe dream 23 years ago.
Reminds me of one of my buddies who went to a job interview in 1992 where they wanted someone with 10 years of NT experience. I bet they were looking for a LONG time...
Network Support Analyst £25k (=US$41K)
Network Manager £35k (=US$57.4K)
For a database on average salarys this is an useful resource - UK only though...
Incidentally I am currently looking for alternative employment in the London area. Experience of LAN/WAN connectivity using Cisco Router and Switch equipment. Good NT experience. Experience of UNIX systems. Firewall Experience and general network security knowledge. Any offers?
Looking through all your comments I find this quite surprising. I thought that you guys/gals in the US were all on $80-$100K, but it seems that that isn't the case. It makes me feel slightly happier about my situation here in the UK.
:)
:)
As for people suggesting that a graduate start of £14K is adequate, beware, especially if you are travelling down to London to start your new job. If we say you can spend 33% of your post-tax salary on rent then you will most likely be living under the charing-cross bridge with the tramps. The cost of Living in London is high, especially if you want to have a life!
I didn't get a degree and I started on £14k in 1995, in Surrey, on the border of South London, thankfully I've worked out of that situation to double the value and soon hope to be earning even more for my worth.
If an employer only offers to pay IT staff £14k then he: (a) will probably be going bust within the year, (b) will make a mint, whether it is (a) or (b) completely depends on whether he can sucker accept his measly £14k offer.
Someone mentioned the junk-IT staff that we have in most companies. Yes, they do exist, and they probably cause more problems than they solve - (I had one who disabled User access to our domain controllers today, and nobody was able to login) - but, for some, unknown reason, the managers (or suits) actually seem to like them - usually they have better social and communication skills than the gurus that have championed the tech departments for years.
Our Telephone staff earn £14 or so here, and all they do is answer the telephones!
In short, don't let the side down, get what you're worth and don't settle for less, otherwise you will be devaluing our skills and I won't be best pleased!!!
In Holland, you can expect at least fl. 3500 (before taxes) per month if you're fresh out of shool. That's about $1750. Getting a cellphone and
;-)
notebook is usually no problem.
If you start working at a big company, you can expect fl 5000 (US$ 2500) per month plus a company car. But you'd have to conform to that
company (might be hard for die-hard geeks - they tend to love Microsoft).
If you're thirty (-something) and have lots of experience, and don't mind working hard, fl 8500 or more is usually no problem. In Holland, that
kind of salary will buy you anything you want. It's about 3 times average.
If you foreigners are tempted to get a job in the Netherlands, consider the following:
Don't forget the taxes! Income tax is 38% on pay up to about Hfl 60000 ($30000), after that it's 50%! (Even higher salaries are taxed at 60%). Your company car is considered income; you pay around Hfl 4500 in income taxes for your "free" company car. Companies generally pay your fuel though (even for personal use fo your car), and at Hfl 2,25 a litre ($4 a gallon) that is a sweet deal.
Foreigners may be disappointed by the housing in Holland: cramped & expensive. Rents start at about Hfl 1000 unfurnished; you can buy a 3-room apartment for Hfl 250000 and up (if you are lucky). Amsterdam is much, much more expensive.
That said, Holland is a good place to live, and the American and British ex-pats in our company are having a great time here.
Besides, we have legalized soft drugs
I know, other AC...
Finland sux, man. Been in Helsinki for 15 months and all I want is to LEAVE! Ppl really suck and you won't make a dime here... Top coder in top company... $20K/year...and 35% tax on it...
Forget it.
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Anyone need a network and unix/nt sysadmin in Baltimore for about ~$50K (it's a university job)? Email me for contact information. Need to be well-versed in NT, Linux, IRIX, and firewalls of some sort. Experience with cisco cat 5509's a plus.
-Chris
I am a Canadian citizen moving back to Vancouver after working in Silicon Valley for 3 years, I had previously worked in Vancouver at computer positions, but nothing that paid really well (ie, a startup internet cafe). Now that I am returning, I will be looking for Jr - Mid level SA work in Vancouver (strictly SA, not coding other than basic scripts and HTML). I have 2 years of experience with IRIX and SGI hardware, and have a previous 3 years of experience with other unix flavours and Windows (95/98/NT). My question is, what type of salary can I expect to get for my skills in Vancouver ?
I saw that an AC posted he was a SA with 5 years of experience in Vancouver and making $65k (which seems quite high for Vancouver, but then I do not have any expereince at the pay rates in this field in Vancouver, I am making around $50k in the states right now and I figure even with the exchange rate, I would be making less than that.
Could all the AC (or whoever else) that posted about Canada (specifically Vancouver) salaries, please send me e-mail, so that I could ask you some more questions and get some advice on the best ways (web sites, etc) to be looking for SA jobs in Vancouver. My address for this is:
meerkat@squeep.com
I'm pretty fly for a white guy
I know there are salary surveys out there. But I have to agree that a lot of times the surveys are kinda vauge, leaving you to interpret the results as best you can. If you don't exactly match then you have to start guessing how it could effect you.
It would probably be interesting to see a site where you could fill out a form of where you live, what you do etc. Then add in your last raise, bonuses, and your actual salary. Then based on some mystical calculation involving the number i a set of numbers come back describing what you should make. It takes you numbers and puts them into the database to update the values appropriately.
Of course this could already exist as far as I know. If it does where?
-cpd
Just to reinforce some other comments here - I'm a programmer with around 2 years commercial experience. Most of that has been Windows programming :-( but I've just got a new job near Oxford working cross platform in C++ (no MS boxes at this place :-)). I've been on £16K for my current company and am about to get £20K. Thi sis very much the right sort of wage for the South outside of London as I've had 3 other offers in the last couple of months of the same amount. There is one problem that seems to be showing through at the moment though and that is that companies are being a little cautious in their recruitment. It seems that although the tech departments are in need of more staff to cover the workload and future plans the accounts people don't want to pay for it. I'm guessing that this will change after the millenium - maybe they just don't want to risk the extra money yet. The other thing that maybe worth mentioning is that you only want to get in touch with one or two agencies and definitely don't want to put your details on a job site that forwards stuff to agencies. I did and had my cell phone voice mail crashed by the end of the day from the bulk of messages and my mail box was getting pretty well flooded too.
Out of my mind, back in five minutes
I think you'll find that the generalization of the North being paid less is due to demographic study and not a comparison of your wages against mine. Of course if the only comparison was you vs me then the North of England would come out as better paid...
Out of my mind, back in five minutes
If you're willing to work contract, you can make a lot more than that in Canada. I started at $40/hr right out of University (although I did have 2-3 years of work experience already). And really, any coder worth their beans can do my job. I'm just building web applications using DB2 and server side JavaScript.
:)
By the way, $40/hr is the minimum that you should ask for (in Toronto). I was asked how much I wanted, and I said $40. That's what I got, no questions asked... Makes me think I should have said 50 or 60 and haggled with them a bit
Figure within 5 years of any experience in the IT field your looking at 50k. I current make 55k, got 5 years of networking and unix experience. No college, doing that on the side. I get 401k, full medical/health/disability and life insurance, since the company is privatly held, they trade in some listed stocks that i get matchings from with deposits into my options and 401k plans. so in all i'm making a good deal for only being 23 years old.
It just depends.. I had a *HUGE* stock option once, company bellied over, 2 years later i sold my thousands of shares for 700.00 on the OTC market, so thats a risk you take.
Also.. If you like job hopping, you can always hop up to more cash, work here, there, get broad experience, training.. if you don't mind being busy all the time and on the road alot and no place to call home, i'd say you can easily make 80k a year...
And for those of you interested in being a systems administrator and looking at that shinny "up to 90k a year" salary, you'd better be prepaired to give up your life, and remember that a few thousand employees are *relying* on you that you gave up everything to run those servers.. its a very self gratifying position, but again, if you want to keep your marriege, deal with a lil bit less stress and simpler job and take the lower expectation salary :)
The salaries in norway really vary, but what I have come to find being very nifty is having your own small one-man business, but being sponsored by a bigger company, which hires you out to businesses across the board, as well as lets you do development work and different stuff. :)
Pays well, and the hours for a student like me is very flexible
On a sidenote, you can see anything between 80-100$ an hour doing regular network/server setups etc. I have heard of Linux/Unix people here not taking a job if it pays below 200$ an hour. And they usually get it (if you're good).
So the pay is good, but the cost of living and taxes in norway is steep. Atleast most of the social system is free of charge etc.
Well, do if you like lots of nature more than lots of money. I live in the northern half of Sweden, working as a programmer for a medium-sized (for Sweden) company. I rake in the enormous amount of 210.000 SEK/yr (~$26k). Granted, others in similar positions here make more, but then I still lack a formal education, which tend to drop you down a bit, unless you go for smaller shops.
If you stay south, you're more likely looking at somewhere around $35k, with a lot of extra pollution and other nice things that come in the bargain when you move into "big" cities. (I mean, Stockholm is HUGE, around 1 million people! ;-)
So, the salary isn't high, and most of it get mysteriously lost in taxes (~30%), but I quite like the place anyway. Though, of course, you have to be able to handle snowy winters and rainy summers, but once you get used to it, and get yourself a snow-mobile, winters are dang fun!
In living expenses, you're looking at $500/month for a three-room apartment (note; not three-bedroom, three rooms, plus kitchen and bathroom). Me and my fiance spend around $200-$300 on food every month, though we tend to eat a lot of (expensive) meat. I haven't lived down south, but I get the impression that the rent is slightly higher (or even a lot higher, if you want a central place). Gas is around a dollar per litre (I can never remember how much a gallon is...)
As far as connectivity goes, I can only speak for the city I live in (Umeå), in which most of the larger areas are getting either radio-LAN or cable modems. I have a cable modem for $30/mo. But DO bring your computer, if you buy one here, you'll get a heartattack from having to pay near twice as much as in US!!
In all, as always, it comes down to what your priorities are. If you can live with less money, but like nature, northern Sweden is lovely, especially in the winter. If you want lots of money, you're probably better off going somewhere else. Doing some quick calculations, I get $1250 each month after taxes, spend $280 (half the rent) and $100 on food, $50 on the car (I don't drive much), $40 on public transport. That leaves me with something like $750 to live on, which is plenty enough for me, since I don't need many frills.
I always thought that was BS, so I'm thrilled to see it on /.
But does anyone know what I'm talking about? Its a vauge memory from something I read somewhere...
Salaries in Vancouver are $40k, 50k and 60k for entry, mid, and senior levels respectively. That is just a general rule from a guy I know who is conducting interviews. Just few weeks ago a big company offered $58k to a fresh BCIT grad (I'm not sure whether it's degree or just a diploma, but the institution is well regarded in the industry), granted, for electrical engineering work not sw but the guy has no experience other than internship. I get $51k with 6yrs of experience doing C/C++ on UNIX as an Electrical Eng. gone SW Designer (with experience in real-time telephony, Oracle, GUI, TCP/IP etc.) which I think is low - but it didn't seem low last year as I earned $44k before that. There was a jump in salaries this year, and there was a jump a year before.
I think I saw your post, that you make like $74k as a contractor, without free time. I don't know how's contracting industry here, but I do know some people make a lot of money doing that.
The industry itself is not nearly as developed as in Toronto or Ottawa, there are less jobs, but should be no problem to find a job for a person with experience.
Beware though, there's plenty of rain, and I mean plenty. Vancouver is literally paradise on Earth during a brief summer but otherwise it's mostly rain. Our provincial government is probably among the worst in the country as well, trafic is very bad, public transit is slow and tax money goes to wrong projects (well, subject to debate). At least it's not cold. On the other hand, if you like snow sports, they are all within 1/2 hour drive and are open good portion of the year.
In Mexico, I have seen IT salaries ranging from about $3,000 to $30,000 a year (extremely under- and over-paid - it would be more real to say it goes from $7,000 to $15,000, it's much more usual).
However, that doesn't mean we are underpaid; the cost of living in Mexico is WAY under what you would expect... I have a relatively expensive way of living, and I spend about 15 dollars a day. It is not hard to live (and pretty decently) with about 5 dollars a day. In fact, the minimum wages go at US$2.2 per day - and many people live with less than that.
I think the situation you depict is quite ok. (Note however there's a big difference whether you studied university or 'hogeschool' (the official english term for that nowadays is 'university of professional education', but the salary is still lower than someone who did a 'real' university.)
I think in general the cost of living in the Netherlands is lower than in the US. (Some exceptions ofcourse, we pay more then twice as much for gas for your car.)
Greetings,
Ivo
Just one additional remark: the trend goes towards unpaid overtime. Beside that, overtime is nearly mandatory, especially if milestones/releases/whatever are ahead.
-- "Wherever you go, there you are." (Buckaroo Banzai)
If you are negotiating for your salary:
You were to low, if your opposite accepts without hesitation. This applies especially for serious interlocutors (the unserious protest always).
-- "Wherever you go, there you are." (Buckaroo Banzai)
Your friend made the mistake to start at 2/3 of a normal salary I think.
There is an arti cle in the German IT-Newspaper Computerwoche about German IT salaries. From my experience as an IT Consultant the salaries in that paper seem to be quite low, though.
A typical post-degree starter salary is 75kDM per year.
A junior consultant with some experience gets about 90kDM.
Please keep in mind that we have very high income taxes in Germany. We have progessive taxation (the percentage grows with the income), up to 53% for a high income.
The IT center of Germany is just around München (English speaking people like to mis-spell that "Munich"). For IT people in finance, Frankfurt (we call it "Bankfurt" somtimes) is the place. Smaller IT cities are Hamburg and Bremen in the north, a little bit in the Hannover area. More and more service companies are moving to Berlin now, thus there are some jobs there.
A very good starting point for searching job adverts (sorry, all in German) are the pages of the newspaper DIE ZEIT. They use a crawler to collect information from many other job sites. They have a page for international jobs too.
-- "Wherever you go, there you are." (Buckaroo Banzai)
In the Burlington Area of Vermont... Some companies will offer thirty-five thousand to someone with a few years experience...fifty-five thousand US is a good job with about five years experience. The local medical database company IDX has several top-notch programmers at over eighty thousand...
Celebrate Excellence!
For example, in Silicon Valey, you will get a high salary, but you have to pay >500k for a decent house. In other part of the world you will get lower salary, but the cost of life is much lower. So in fact you can make a better living elsewhere.
Which is why (if you're the planning ahead type), you do what I'm doing...
Get a job paying you around 6 figures, live frugally, save money, move somewhere else....
When I moved here, my rent doubled, but so did my salary.. All things considered, I'm saving twice as much (straight dollar amount) as I was before I moved west... I'll keep it up for a few years, move back to the midwest, and be able to pay cash money for a house.. Doesn't sound like such a bad deal, does it?
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. -- HS Thompson
Except for the part where you move back to the midwest. Yuck... :-)
test
I've known a few UK docs. I was surprised to learn from one of these that private practice exists in the UK (for those who can afford to pay). But most of the medicine is socialized. Probably not a bad way to do it. The bulk of the population is served by a reliable, but perhaps less responsive, public health service while the few who can afford private medicine are allowed to pursue that. No corporate medicine, where business and ethics can collide on so many planes.
I do hope we don't go the way of the Canadians. My doc friends in Canada tell me that private practice simply isn't allowed there. It's completely socialized. Certainly the docs are as good as anywhere else, but the waiting lists are much worse. If you have an urgent problem, you'll get timely attention. But if you've got nagging gallstones or a sore herniated disc, you may have to wait months in pain for that elective surgery. Meanwhile there is little or no wait in the states for even the poorest uninsured patient (just find your nearest friendly University hospital). More than a few Canadians can be found flying into the Mayo Clinic and elsewhere in the states for medical care they couldn't get in a timely manner or at all in Canada. Again, this is no reflection on the docs and nurses in the system, just the system.
Jobfinder.ie should have all you need to find out about IT jobs in Ireland. They have a salary survey (a year or two old) that's reasonably accurate (look under "Career Resources" on the main menu).
Due to the current nature of the economy in Ireland, expect it to take you at least eight hours to get a job in Dublin! Less if you're not fussy. We're the world's second biggest exporter of software after the US. Not bad for a country with only 3.5 million. But then we are Microsoft's distribution point for Europe.
Reasons not to come here: the weather is crap, tax is a bitch, traffic is a nightmare, the price of housing has gone up over 100% in the last few years, the weather is crap, and, in case I forgot to mention it, the weather is crap (unless you like rain).
Reasons to come here: just the chance of seeing the sun once every few years fills you with hope; the beer is good; despite the fact that we're level with Canada's Hudson Bay, it rarely gets below freezing in the winter (average temp. in January is 9C/48F, just right for some nice soft rain); tax is coming down every year; more jobs in IT than you can shake a very large stick at; we speak English (but then, so do the Dutch and the Finns but they have cold winters, it just rains here); the beer is good (well the socialising around beer is good).
Problem: work permits can be hard to come by if you don't have an EU passport. You mightn't be as free to change jobs as the locals. You could check that out somewhere else. I think they've relaxed things of late.
Oh, in case I forgot to tell you, it rains a lot, so bring an umbrella. You won't need any sun-screen.
Enjoy,
Daisy.
Jobfinder.ie should have all you need to find out about IT jobs in Ireland. They have a salary survey (a year or two old) that's reasonably accurate (look under "Career Resources" on the main menu).
Due to the current nature of the economy in Ireland, expect it to take you at least eight hours to get a job in Dublin! Less if you're not fussy. We're the world's second biggest exporter of software after the US. Not bad for a country with only 3.5 million. But then we are Microsoft's distribution point for Europe.
Reasons not to come here: the weather is crap, tax is a bitch, traffic is a nightmare, the price of housing has gone up over 100% in the last few years, the weather is crap, and, in case I forgot to mention it, the weather is crap (unless you like rain).
Reasons to come here: just the chance of seeing the sun once every few years fills you with hope; the beer is good; despite the fact that we're level with Canada's Hudson Bay, it rarely gets below freezing in the winter (average temp. in January is 9C/48F, just right for some nice soft rain); tax is coming down every year; more jobs in IT than you can shake a very large stick at; we speak English (but then, so do the Dutch and the Finns but they have cold winters, it just rains here); the beer is good (well, the socialising around beer is good).
Problem: work permits can be hard to come by if you don't have an EU passport. You mightn't be as free to change jobs as the locals. You could check that out somewhere else. I think they've relaxed things of late.
Oh, in case I forgot to tell you, it rains a lot, so bring an umbrella. You won't need any sun-screen.
Enjoy,
Daisy.
Well, I don't know what kind of welfare system you have in the States, but here in the UK it'd be practically impossible to support any kind of serious drug habit on forty quid a week. And I think you'll find that the vast majority of people on welfare are there short-term.
--
"This isn't the post you're looking for. Move along."
--
"This isn't the post you're looking for. Move along."
In my experience starting salaries tend to be around $40K CDN - or about $27K American. That's for any type of coding. Of course, rates rise with experience
Anybody want to offer more?:)
J:)
Oh well, no point in steering now.
Pick a small company in a non-computer related, slow-paced sector. Forgot getting a degree and get lots of experience instead. For preference, get some experience of the business first. Sticking with one company for as long as you can bear it helps as you can acquire seniority simply by being there.
:-)
While it might not be the sexiest work around BEING the IT department is kinda fun. Finding a small, successful company and filling that role can be a lot of fun (with the right company). There is little specialization (for me at least) but I do DBs, network sec./arch., web stuff, support (blech), and like davey said "fix pretty much anything with a plug."
They are also rather dependent on you so when you walk in after a year and ask for a 70% pay hike, they give in happily.
+&x
True, true, true... I started at 30K doing tech. support and progect management. That was six months ago, the company doesn't know how to treat its employees so I'm forced to look elseware. Problem is i HAVE to stay in the Atlanta area, for relationship reasons (plus I can't afford a move now anyway), so there's no telling what I'll be able to find.
Sux for me.
(To get that in US$, multiply by 1.64) :)
That's not bad actually: 30k+ a year
Heh, I dropped out of school and am making 35 a year in Baltimore *grin*
With the experience I've garned in that year and a half, the degree will push me up to closer to 50-55 *grin*
What is up with NOVA(North VA for the uninitaited)
every time I go there it leaves a bad taste in my
mouth. It has to be the whitest, most uptight,
anal retentive place on this earth. And the women
are all homely lookin'. Here in Richmond, VA it's
very chill. I configure and test networks for a
fortune 500 for 41K US a year. Couldn't be happier. I could be making 50-60K in NOVA, but I
wouldn't move there if someone put a gun to my head. I hate that place.
The Information Revolution will be fought on the command line.
Being in the US Military, I make $5.47 per hour here in the US... and oversees I make $5.47 per hour. Talk about needing a new line of work :-)
Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
I worked in Melbourne after my graduation. I got paid around AU$35k/yr. WHich is kind of a pay for fresh grads. It allowed me to do a decent living. But I didn't stand out from the crowd :-) I was just another person on the road driving a HOnda or a Ford, Not a BMW or Lexus or Audi. :-)
:-) My salary is almost tripple. Even though living expenses are "VERY" high in bay area, I can still save more. And I like the technology I work with.
But let me tell you, I loved the company I worked for. No corporate culture. Engineers were looked aftered very well.
Seriouly, compared to US pay, Aus pay will make you laugh. But they still think you are earning a fortune.
And stock options in most companies are unheard of or peanuts.
THen I left for US
As a person worked in Singapore for a very short time, I can tell that you will very seriously dissappointed in Singapore too. Pay is poor and the people aren't that nice to you as you are used to in Aus or US. It was a strict 9-5 job.
All in all, I think Silicon Valley is the area where you are most valued at. But it could be a quick conclusion. I also heard Canada is picking up. May be some one can clarify this. And I heard Canada has a good health care system and such.
cheers
LinuxLover
You are most welcome. I have enjoyed the use of your site for years, and talk it up whenever I get the opportunity. Sorry for having 'Slashdotted' you, but it is a nice problem to have. :-)
Steve Cline http://www.clines.org, http://www.objectbap.com
I'd also encourage folks to contribute their current rates - kind of like open source for salary information!
Steve Cline http://www.clines.org, http://www.objectbap.com
I disagree about cost of living, meybe out in the sticks but here in the RandStaadt (sp?) I reckon it ends up pretty equivalent to the UK. Food/beer/eating out is much cheaper, but the cost of acommodation is hideous if you want to live in a big city, and the cost of running a car is hideous if you live in a village, The cost of owning a car and living in Amsterdam was enough to make me sell it and take the tram.
"Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
The northeast is sort of a foreign country. Bandwidth is nonexistent unless you are in Boston or VERY close to New York. There are no POPs around.
Here in Rochester New York, lots of people have cable modems, is that what you mean by bandwidth? I'd have it to, but I'm moving in a few months. I don't know the availability of DSL or ISDN, though.
George
I'm not trolling, you sound underpaid for a computer professional, though paid okay for a print shop worker.
If you're looking, I'm wondering if you should underplay the Mac and pump up the PC end of things. Lots of people (HR, PHB) assume Macs are for pretty pictures, and don't even realize that you can run a decent web server on them.
I don't see many Macs jobs in the local ads, and the ones I do see are for prepress work.
George
I'm not sure what the IT situation is in Orlando, though I haven't heard much good about Florida. Are you committed to staying in Florida, or are you willing to relocate? Northern Virginia isn't too far away, and seems to need people.
You do mention working in college computer labs. Is this a big college town? That seems to be the kiss of death for salary, since your competition is hungry college students who need beer and pizza money.
You mentioned certifications, but didn't list any of the three and four letter acronyms that resume reading software and PHB's like, you know, CNA, CNE, MCP, MCSE. Do you have those, have you considered working for those?
How about networking? Do you belong to any local users groups, where you can meet someone who can get you in?
How about getting a BS? Some companies have the luxury of throwing all non-BS/BA resumes in the trash, especially if they're older/more conservative, or the labor market is tight. Tying this together with my company, some divisions won't look at you without a four year degree, others will start you at $30k+ if you know computers and are willing to work on the hotline. If you didn't know which division to apply to, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
Hope this helps.
George
Staring salary in Austin is about $38,000 for C/Perl/Java people; Web design/sysadmin/database is a little lower. DBA's seem to be pulling in about $75k+ with 2 or more years experience, while software enigneers get about $65k or so with 3-4 yrs. I entered at $30 and am up to $40 in the past 10 months. COL is low compared to California or New York, but I think that might be applicable for just about anywhere else in the world. Austin is a cool town; while it doesn't have quite the IT shortage that Dallas or Houston have (thus lower salaries), it is a much more liveable place.
Staring salary in Austin is about $38,000 for C/Perl/Java people; Web design/sysadmin/database is a little lower. DBA's seem to be pulling in about $75k+ with 2 or more years experience, while software engineers get about $65k or so with 3-4 yrs. I entered at $30 and am up to $40 in the past 10 months. COL is low compared to California or New York, but I think that might be applicable for just about anywhere else in the world. Austin is a cool town; while it doesn't have quite the IT shortage that Dallas or Houston have (thus lower salaries), it is a much more liveable place.
I just interviewed at a Portland area company and was told that $45-50K was a reasonable starting salary for a CS grad fresh out of college.
Brian
It's hard to give an "average" in terms of pay simple due to the fact that it can vary tremendously depending on many things:
- Experience (length of time in field)
- Type of degree (BS, MS, PhD, etc)
- The length of time you're with the company
- Any significant achievements
Basically they take a look at everything about you, weigh out the good and the bad, then decide...For example, I worked at a consulting firm for a while...here's some average full time salaries:
Web designer (little experience): $15/hr
Web designer/ webmaster (2+ yrs exp): $25/hr
System admin (2+ yrs exp): $25/hr
Network admin (4+ yrs exp): $35/hr
Programmer (C/C++ entry level): $20/hr
Programmer (C/C++ 2+ yrs): $30/hr
Senior network eng (8-10+ yrs exp): $45/hr
Generally the longer you're out there, the more you can ask for...it all depends on your resume...anything goes...were you involved in any leadership positions? (project leader, etc)...any specially challeging projects? How good were you with the deadlines? Balance in expertise? They like to see people that can do many different things and tackle anything that gets thrown at them, but at the same time, a jack of all trades that has no special expertise can be a big minus.
For the post-college people, it also matters any relevant courses you've taken, any important research, your GPA (duh), and also the school you graduated from (not as big of a deal as many people would think...it mainly helps you get the foot in the door and also when competing for a position against other people).
If there's something about you that you truly feel puts you above the average, it's ok to ask for more, but be realistic.
Also, in many cases, not simply $$$ is enough...most of the people I know didn't pick the offer that gave the most $$$ up front...they balanced out many things such as health benefits, stock options, cost of living in the area, etc...
The one thing you wanna keep in mind though is not $$$....money in most cases is one of the least important things...the most important thing is whether you'll be happy or not at the job...would you rather make a lot of money and work at a place where they make you wear a suit, fill out tons of bogus reports and have an a**hole of a boss or at a more casual place, where maybe you'll make less, but you'll get along with the people better, etc...Getting a job isn't a "go where the money is" kind of thing...you should REALLY keep that in mind.
-dr0ne
Just as cost of living in diffrent parts of the world differs vastly, so do the tax laws and social dues.
I program Java in Germany and make aroung DM 5K/Month (divide ~2 for Dollars) before taxes and end up with about DM 2.9K. When you start really making money (as an employee) your tax+health insurance+unemployeement etc gets really close to 50%.
As far as I know, it's even worse than that in Scandinavian countries.
Cost of living is not just housing and food. There's health of course, but if you happen to have kids education can be expensive too. 30k$/year for college, if you got 3 kids going to college for some time, is quite expensive. Especially since most European country give it for free. Add to this holidays (5 and soon 7 weeks in France, 2 in US !) and taxes and comparing salaries get almost impossible.
The average starting salary for a programmer in Ohio seems to be from US$40-45K/year. I'd suggest avoiding public universities here - the pay seems to hit US$40K only after you've been there for 10 years!
I started my programming career in Arkansas working for JB Hunt Transportation doing C++ at $30K US/year in 1994, which was a very good starting rate for programmers, and an excellent rate for Arkansas. Luckily I didn't know this so I got a job in Virginia a year later at $45K. If you're stuck in NorthWest AR (not a bad situation; it's very beautiful there) try Wal Mart, Tyson, JB, ...
Now I'm working in Dallas, TX as a Java consultant making $75/hour (~$160K/year) and planning to move back to AR next year to start my own business. Life is good.
Hang in there, be willing to negotiate, and be willing to move!
You are getting screwed, but you probably already knew that.
Beyond that, I've always found contracts that don't allow you to discuss your salary to be a big red flag. Every company I've ever seen that included that sort of clause has not impressed me. Think about it...why would they stipulate that? It's almost a sort of security by obscurity...and we know how well that works.
Let me guess, they also have some stupid (and probably invalid/illegal) non-compete clause as well, right?
--GnrcMan--
The salary for you first geek job is not terribly important...you won't be keeping it for long...:)
The industry is such that they only way to get ahead is to change jobs frequently your first five years or so. Otherwise you get locked into a 5-7% raise structure, and never get anywhere.
So, forget salary, and try to land something that will expose you to skills in growing areas you can market later. The value of someone with even a year experience is so much greater than that of a college kid...that is when you want to start thinking about the dollar signs.
I started out with 300.000 DKr/Year (~42K $), when I got my first job after graduating from the University. Last month I was offered a company car as a pay-rise :)
I general the salaries are very good for the skilled programmer i Denmark. (But the taxes are high: 50-60%, depending on your income).
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~sumitg/essays/MSvsPhd.htm
I think that the money is excellent as a Phd, so you can get both hapiness and money ! Comments welcome. Sumit
the reason that you are only making 7$ is that someone convinced you that "you must have a degree to earn money." that is so untrue, a friend on mine made nearly twice that much with no degree, plus benefis -- the company gave him a computer i estimate to be worth $3000 after just one summer of working there. you might need to looke a little farther for someone who won't rip you off, but it is well worth the trouble --good luck!--
Hmm... thanks, I needed that info.. I'll finish my "stage" (work experience, I think) in 2 months.. and it's nice to know what to ask for.. especially since I got 3 joboffers. And at least 2 of those involve linux or unix. It's good to be wanted :)
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
I'll stick to the smaller ones then.. (was already planning for that anyway, and you won't catch ME in a three-piece suit :) I should at least slightly enjoy the job. And right now (I have no idea why.. maybe because I know how to read a man-file) I am considered to be the company's linux "expert". Oh well.. I don't mind :)
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
A man walks into a silicon valley pet shop and sees 3 monkeys on the shelf. He's shocked at the prices, and so calls over the assistant.
Man: "Hey, how come this monkey is $20,000!"
Assistant: "Well, he's a code monkey. Brilliant C programmer, never forgets to free(), lots of great experience and references. A real bargain!"
Man: "And what about the one next to him - that monkey is $50,000!"
Assistant: "He's even better! He's an object-oriented monkey, knows UML, can model as well as code. Word has it he was once owned by Stroustrup himself. This guy can even make C++ work in embedded. Worth his weight in gold."
Man: "Wow, the last one is $200,000 - what does he do?"
Assistant: "I'm not sure, but he says he's a contractor."
The bay area is the only place I know you will actually make lots of cash, quickly. If you leave the USA, you may be disappointed. As an Australian I can tell you that salaries there allow you to live comfortably, but only because the cost of living is much lower - and you won't be much better off than say, a plumber or a successful shopkeeper. If you see a Porsche boxster in Australia, I'd put my money on the driver being in real estate or finance. I think in the bay area the cost of living is about double, but my salary is about triple - and if you're prepared to live out of the city you can save a lot of money fast, and of course we all know what stock and options can do. In Germany I understand from talking to engineers there that the situation is similar.
Benefits offered will be different. In some countries there is a real health system, and instead of offering HBO/PPO plans you will get a car + fuel provided. While there may be tax benefits to joining a private health scheme, most people don't as it's not really necessary. Australia has compulsory employer-funded superannuation, so don't worry about 401k deductions either. Four weeks is the standard vacation per year.
Finally, I don't think you will get options in many countries. I have never heard of anyone getting options as an engineer in Australia, and the Germans tell me it is also unheard of.
One possibility I have heard of is to contract in the UK. Figures of around 80 pounds per hour (BTW, this '#' means HASH, not POUND - I want to slap anyone who says "pound define") were mentioned to me when I looked into it. That's a lot of money, but living in London will cost you a packet too. No benefits as a contractor of course, and no holidays either.
The biggest thing you have to worry about is your visa/passport situation. I assume you have already looked into that and have a short list of countries that you can move to/work in? If you haven't then do that first, the USA isn't the only country with restrictions.
AND make sure you know what is like to work in some other place. I'm sitting at my bay area desk in tracksuit pants, with free brewed coffee and a free bagel. I have a 21" monitor and a nice fast laptop. Free cell phone. Card access to the building, any time. FAST internet! Freedom to manage my own computing resources. Flexible hours. Work from home. My current project is something I suggested, and I like it.
Contrast this with the Australian experience... tailored pants & shirt at all times. 15" monitor and Pentium 66. No phone, no expenses, no after hours access, strictly 9-5. Adversarial management. SLOW internet - possibly with some kind of net nanny installed. NO software other than that approved by the half-educated empire-building IT manager allowed! And they wonder why all the programmers are leaving.
A little note about Canada (and Quebec in particular, where I live): the taxes are pretty high so you could expect to loose around 40% of that to taxes (I think anything over 50K CDN is pretty much taxes at 50%). You also have to deal with 13% sales taxes.
But then education's a lot cheaper and hospitalisation's free (but you usually have a good health insurance when you get hired in the States). The cost of living is also a lot less. And social security can keep you afloat for longer in case of trouble (but that isn't very relevant in this case).
Fact is, you can get by with less than you would need in the States, even if the salaries are higher.
The way I see it, you can probably afford to live a little better with the base salary in the States than here in Canada. The difference would increase when you get more experience I think since I haven't heard of many jobs offering monstrous amounts of money around here.
I'm a little confused here. Are you looking for a job in the six counties of Northern Ireland under UK control or are you looking for a job in the 3 counties of Ulster in the republic?
For those of you who aren't familiar with the currency rates, that translates to about 35k US $. Cost of living is only slightly higher than the US for most things (tax is higher, but we do get some cool stuff back for it like the health service), but as far as hitech products go, most manufacturers keep the figures the same regardless of whether they are charging in US $ or UK £, so this is a bad place to be buying computers, hifi equipment, etc.
Hi,
First the gross salary is just a little part of the equation. You also have to look at the cost of life.
For example, in Silicon Valey, you will get a high salary, but you have to pay >500k for a decent house. In other part of the world you will get lower salary, but the cost of life is much lower. So in fact you can make a better living elsewhere.
Now to answer your question, in Montreal the mean salary for someone who is just out of the University is 40,000$CAN.
For people with 5 years of experience it can go from 50K to 90K ($CAN). This is relative to what technologies you have experience with and how aggressive you are when negociating your salary.
That's a bit over the odds... for a graduate you'd be better off thinking in the 14-18k (21-27k US) type range... the biggest thing to consider with England though is the cost of living... compared to almost anywhere else in the world it's astronomical...
-~ Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier. ~-
Come to Holland then... there are loads of tax perks here, and the cost of every day living is 1/3 of that in england...
-~ Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier. ~-
Salary of Senior Programmer: around R14 000 ($2300) per month gross. Take off R4000 for tax. Salaries will be higher in Joburg, but you couldn't pay me to live there.
Other factors:
Housing, food: Cheap and good
Natural environment and weather: great!
Public transport: what's that?
Roads & highways: Adequite, under 1 hour to work from outlying suburbs.
Health care: Private health care is good, public health care is apalling
Internet: Local phone calls charged *per minute*
Crime rate: Appalling
Good geeks are steadily leaving to earh real money in the 1st world.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Most C, C++, and Perl programmers with 0-2 years of experience that I know of living in Austin, TX make around 35-40k. Most everyone in Austin is underemployed, it seems. I know personally I could double my salary if I moved somewhere else. But it's not worth it to me to live in NYC or California.
I haven't been too terribly impressed by any of my co-workers that have CS degrees from UT. But with a school that size, it's hard to make too many generalizations, since there's always an exception.
The going rate for graduates in the South of England is anywhere from 20 to 27 KGBP per annum. Expect to get more the nearer London you get, and less in the north of England and Wales, and Scotland.
I see more and more US companies hiring students as interns or for lower than normal wages and giving them fairly major projects. I am a student and many of my student collegues have the same story. They aren't just writing snibblets but putting whole applications together and not getting paid standard wages. I think smaller comapnies are getting more savvy as to how to cut IT developement costs, especially in web developement where things are always changing and fastpaced anyhow.
You wouldn't be around Galway/Mayo would you? I'm coming home for Christmas with a view to moving back in a few years (like 2). I'd like to start scoping the situation out.
I live in Huntsville, AL. I'm a software engineer who's still working on a degree, with about 2 years experience (workforce) or 11 years (since I started hacking around in QBasic. :) ). I get $20/hr.
--me
This is an especially difficult problem for students, who generally have no idea what they are worth or what their options are. This was one of the primary motivating factors that contributed to my leaving school (temporarily) to start work on a company called Catalyst Recruiting. I won't give the official blurb here, but I'd like to invite anybody who's interested to come take a look. We specialize in finding alternative opportunities for students - abroad, in hi-tech startups, hedgefunds, etc.
our model is quite different from someone like Monster.com - we use a profile database (incidentally built with 100% Linux-based free and open-source software) to let companies come to candidates and not the other way around.
Ok, that's enough of a plug. Thanks for listening...
Eric Ries
CIO
Catalyst Recruiting
Can your IM do this?
http://www.pencomsi.com/industry.html
:) :)
this dynamicaly generates a report. its alright
first it'll ask u the geography, field, whatcha know, etc. I'm not sure how accurate it is tho
Housing prices:
Toronto: 300,000
Vancouver: 500,000
Saskatoon: 60,000
Calgary: 180,000
:-) The prairies may suck, but they are cheap to live in.
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Im based out of Geneva(Switzerland) and have been for the last 2 years. I can't comment on the rest of Europe however, regarding Geneva:
;-)
.ch it is extremely high, in fact I think the highest in Europe. Living is expensive, high tax rate (so you try to get a tax-free position with an organization like the UN)
;-)
Minimum wage in the IT industry, (for example for a junior, no experience, PC support technician or help desk) is about USD 40,000 per annum
Going up scale (eg. skilled junior software developer- max 1 year professional experience, in MS technologies - eg. VB or ASP) USD 45,000 - 55,000 per annum
Further up (eg. DB certified specialist - Oracle, MS SQL Server etc. with knowledge at least 1 development language, eg. Perl, C/C++, VB, Delphi) USD 60,000 + (assuming about 2 yrs experience)
After that it really depends on you, I don't reckon you could realistically average it out. I know a couple of guys technically down the ladder from me, working in development earning up to 55% more than I do.
If you working with *nix's or the large (non-MS) DB servers - you can usually name your own salary. I mean this!
Quality of Life in
I would recommend that you dont try and get an equivalent of your current US salary - aim for a minimum 15% higher or else you're talking a noticely drop in lifestyle
You'd probably get a better idea of things talking to your embassy over here to get an idea of the differences. I think they have some sort of professional counsel who can talk you through the various aspects of relocating to various countries in western Europe.
BTW, above are my own observations. You really would have to get a more authoritative source of info. But I doubt you'll get much definitive info.
The Big Company Myth...
Big Companies DON'T necessarily pay you more!
If your fresh out of University, expect Fl.3500, even at the Big Companies. They usually have a 2 year new recruits program like "Young Proffessional" at CapGemini. Be very careful to enter this program. Unless you're really good, they'll keep you at that level for the two years. Always negotiate!!! They'll usually bump up the amount with a several hundred guilders. Also negotiate the (size of the) company car.
If you apply for a position at a big company and you want to earn more, try to enter via a contact who works there, or apply for a specific position. Don't enter the new recruits program!
Small companies will pay more than big companies for experiene, because there's bigger demand and they need to keep you. It also invloves less negotiation. Maybe in the long run you're better of at a big company, but that's something to decide on an individual basis.
Good Luck !
I moved quite around a bit in the last 18 months, and it didn't went as well as it could have so besides your income (basically you can take it 1:1 on what you earn now) here is my advice:
Something way more important for you then the salary is your moving package when you go abroad (reads: Where you cannot drive by car).
The last two companies (first a US now a Dutch) crossed me quite well. Housing wouldn't be a problem etc.
So in the end I ended up with paying almost 50% of my income on housing.
So after moving from Germany to the US and then to the Netherlands I have decided to do it a third time: Toronto here I come. This time though I go for a big company, might not be fully my enviroment, but at least there I can be sure that they get the thing organized, I am sick of living out of a suitcase.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
To all of you in US this may sound a dumb question. Nevermind, here I go: When you say "35K" do you mean net salary? Or pre-tax?
/.) can get from 30 to 40K taxes excluded. But the tax is about 30 to 32 % for that salary range. C and Java developers fall in that range, too. You are a bit better off doing project management. Nokia DOESN'T excell with the salaries, but the benefits are great. I personally prefere working at Nokia than some minor company that would pay better. The environment is much more friendly, with people from all around the world (then, again, if you're a racistic ass, you might not like it), which I really enjoy. The best seems to be a contractor. They get 2 to 3 times higher salaries.
OK, so I may as well add my 0.02 about finland. A UNIX admin (seems the most popular job on
Sigged!
The starting salary for coders is ~45K straight out of college. It's ~55K if you have a masters degree as well. The cost of living is actually quite low compared to the wage earnings which is why I would never want to live in California where you may make twice that money but never afford a good living condition because of the insane living expenses.
_________________________
Words of Wisdom:
_________________________
Words of Wisdom:
Never pet a burning dog.
I got my first computer 5 years ago. An AST 25MHz POS. Anyway, I got a job last year as a computer support engineer in the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina. That job sucked as I was supposed to support 120 ppl in NC, plus another 100 so in various Islands. Wouldn't have been so bad, but I only made $23,000 and over half of the ppl there had never worked on or seen a computer before. Did I mention that the fastest machine we had was a 233 and our Unix server was a dual 100 with about .005% free disk space? Anyway, I left that crap hole about 4 months ago and now I am a Help Desk Engineer 2 with a reputable company. I now make $33,500... not including my 10% bonus and other goodies. So, if you are just sitting around doing nothing, at least get paid to surf the net and post on /. There's no job like IT... There's no job like IT.
First off, anyone who is a coder, entry level or not, should not be making less then $35k a year, anywhere in the US. If you fall in this category, leave your job immediately. They are fucking you in the ass and they know it. There is a total shortage of people in the IT field across the spectrum.
:) We need your help!
Obviously rates in the field vary by experience, as well as skill sets too. For example, an Oracle DBA is worth $100k+, where an entry level Oracle guy is probably still worth at least $50k.
From what I see in New Jersey, a typical coder with 2-3 years is worth $55-60k. In Manhattan, this rate goes up to about $65-70k.
Hope this information helps.
By the way, if there is anyone in the New York City or New Jersey area with at least two years of Oracle, PHP, MySQL, and Perl experience, please send me your resume!
Jon Niola
Director of Product Development
InfoRocket Inc. - http://www.inforocket.com
Salaries in Denmark as a new student is app 25.000 DKK. Taxes are high (min. 47%) so this leaves you with app. 13000 DKK after taxes. A nice flat in Copenhagen costs from 3500 to 6000 DKK.
As an experienced programmer you can get as much as 45.000 DKK.
Free notebooks, cellphones and other benefits are not common in my area.
Eih bennek, eih blavek
HOUSING .AU ranges from large acreage to tiny townhouses and appartments, and depends on your proximity to the city centre. It's cheaper to get the acreage, but you pay for travel costs, and lose the time it takes to travel. I live a 40 minute walk away from my work, which is approximately a 30 minute walk from the city heart (Brisbane). My apartment costs me 10% of my (net) salary.
.AU: we have *one* cable provider in the entire country, who charge 35c (.au cents are almost identical to canadian cents) per MB at the cheapest rate. We have no DSL, but it's expected ``next year some time.'' Dialup charges are all around 19c/mb, ISDN is so expensive most small businesses won't consider it (several thousand a month, plus traffic charges).. Plus we have a huge delay on technologies and software arriving. Warcraft II:platinum isn't due here until December, for example. I want to move overseas purely because the computer industry lags so much. The new laws don't help.
.uk waited several days for his, and had it burst on him, which caused complications. (My hospital treatment was totally uncharged; dental work I had done recently however incurred a charge).
Housing in
FUEL
I don't drive. I don't own a car. I don't own a license, because I don't expect to own a car for a while yet. Cars are pretty expensive over here; your average new car (barinas etc) is half my yearly gross salary. I catch the bus or walk. Catching the bus is around 3% of my salary.
PEOPLE
I can't compare to other countries, but it ranges from people who would sooner barge you over than deviate their course slightly to people who will stop and chat happily.
COMPUTERS
If you think it's bad in the UK, don't come to
HEALTH SERVICE
Our health system is excellent. It's taken out of your salary in an income tax, but our hospitals are clean and have good staff, and you can elect for private cover if you wish immediate surgery on non-critical operations. Last year I had my appendix removed, I was operated on within a few hours of arriving at the hospital. My uncle in
other points
INCOME TAX
The highest tax rate is around 50%. I'm being taxed at about 38% on my salary (which, incidentally, is $32k a year, first year out of Uni, programming job. I know I can get more, but I like where I work.) I take home a little under $2000 each month -- with a bit of saving, I can afford some shiny new toys, but things like laptops and high end processors are still out of reach.
ENVIRONMENT
I like living in Brisbane; the air is pretty clean for a city, and while the river is in a terrible state, dredging was stopped this year and it should improve. There are parks everywhere, with trees on nearly every road side. I still want to emmigrate, though.
--
bje
How much does do I get for both of these titles in a new start-up company in Los Angeles, CA area? Currently, I get about 35K a year with fringe benefits (still waiting for 401K -- supposedly end of the year)? I started almost a year ago at 30K.
:)
Is this too low, average, or what?
Thank you in advance for replies.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I forgot to mention that it is not the money, it is the fringe benefits that add to my salary. I also have a B.S. in Computer Science if that helped.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I worked for a year and three months in the IT department for a company out of Casper, Wyoming. My supervisor - the administrator of the network - was paid a measly $19,200/year when I started there, and has since been raised to $24,000. He's got over two years of experience, has MCP+I and MCSE, and has worked his tail off for that company, but they won't pay him any more. They've been pulling in millions in profit. Maybe it's just a bad company, or maybe it's just Wyoming, but IT jobs here suck. Me, I'm just a techie, so I was only paid $12,000/year, but I KNOW there are places I could go and get easily three times that. Oh well, now I'm a poor college student - one of these years I'll be up with you guys. =)
Just to get the facts right: The House of Lords have just passed the IR35 bill, according to http://uk.news.yahoo.com/991110/22/awa 1.html.
Maybe it is time to leave the UK? Let's see.
Hi!
Best of both worlds- educational computing. :)
Doesn't pay as much as private sector, but I *do* get to do fun stuff, take what classes I feel like, and wear shorts to work. Not to mention the tuition break on the wife's grad school...
Happiness *is* more important than money- but there is also an available balance of the two, sometimes.
I recently helped interview a slew of people for a web development job focusing on Cold Fusion and everything surrounding it (light database work, html, etc.). Everyone who came in wanted 60-70k, even the people with only a year of marginal experience who could not hold a real conversation about the skills they supposedly had.
If you can back up what you have on your resume, you can definitely demand that level of salary. There are so many perpetrators out there (and headhunteres/HR people don't weed them out well, in my experience). The people will be so happy to find someone not full of BS that they will go to great lengths to get you.
We are on almost the same situation than Mexico. Salary for ITs goes from $8000 to $25.000. Right now I'm making about 18K for IT Support.
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
I once worked at a company where this was the only way to get a promotion.
They never retailiated. They just bet that most people would be too scared to do this.
If you threaten to take another job, make sure you have another job to go to. You never know.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
It's gotta get more profitable to compete. A lot of people confuse "better" with "more profitable". How can I make my hospital more profitable? Charge more. Pay the doctors less. Cut corners. Only treat rich patients who can afford to pay. Get good deals from the drug companies by recommending their treatments. Open a lot of hospitals, get a monopoly and then hike prices. Does this sound like a certain software company?
Nonsense...The same rules that apply to companies could apply to hospitals. How can I make my COMPANY more profitable? Charge more. Pay the employees less. Cut corners...etc
The consumer will benefit as long as there are choices between businesses competing for his/her money. Profit is the way to motivate the company to make their services attractive enough to lure consumers away from its competitor. BTW, corporate monopolistic behaviour is illegal.
So socialized medicine run by the gov't is not monopolistic? Who decides what treatment you get and can you get a better price for a similiar service from a competitor?
You raise an interesting point about the motivation of profit in health care. I suppose it can be abused, just like oil companies can suppress fuel efficient carburators, manufacturers can design products to need to be replaced frequently, etc. Your argument applies equally to business, in all cases the protection to consumers is knowledge. Would you go to a hospital/doctor/drug treatment knowing that its competitors treatments were healthier/cheaper?
Atlanta, GA has a huge shortage of IT workers, because there are lots of rapidly growing high-tech companies around here.
I don't even work at one of them. I work in the IT department at a major poultry company, so things are slightly different for me than they'd be if our products were technology-related.
2 years ago, I came on board with little experience and no certification, making $33k a year, doing PC support (mainly hardware). Having a college degree is important, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a CS degree-- my degree was physics.
A year later, I was transferred to systems/programming, and now I'm making $40k after programming for 1 year, and I'm also learning a hell of a lot about EDI and supply chain/inventory systems. You don't learn this kind of stuff in college, but it's very high in demand! I'm going to build up a little more experience here, and then... move on.
Keep in mind, I was given that position based on my potential (the mgmt really liked what I did in support), since I had no actual programming experience, and I'm mostly self-taught. However, I rarely work over 40 hours a week, and I'm not stressed. There's more than salary to consider!
The key, and this is very important, is that you'll get better jobs through personal contacts (people who've seen how good you are in action) than you will likely get through headhunters. Some people get lucky breaks through headhunters, of course, if they have lots of certificates and degrees listed on their resumes.
With the amount of experience that you have (5 years plus certs) you should be making above $50k by now. But if you want to make more than that, get somewhere where you can expand beyond just sys-adminning. You could get paid lots of money to design a new infrastructure for Company X, who is rolling out new offices that have to communicate with clients Y and Z.
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
Ok, these answers really addressed my questions about the salaries that you geeks make.
Here is my background: I am a marketing/business type 10 years out of college, currently doing my MBA, and a closet geek. I have been playing with computers since I was 10 or so, and I am really getting into them. I have SuSE 6.1 loaded up on a homebuilt dual pentium II that I built myself, and 3 or 4 c++ programming books that I am attempting to wade through.
I'd like to switch careers, but I find that during this discussion, most entry level programmers are making 1/2 my current Marketing salary, but you all are very competitive with my salary (~50k) only 2 years or so out of school. Does anyone have any experience with career changes, or suggestions how I could migrate into the technology field and still keep >50k salary? Is it worth teaching myself C++ and PERL, and would anyone hire a self-taught programmer (as opposed to a CIS graduate) or should I just resign myself to being a business type at this point in my career and doing computers as a hobby?
Thanks.
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
defence contractor. I am only half way to six figures, but for newgrads, my company pays really well...my brother w/2 years less experience than me started out real close to what I am making. If only they payed you to make the world safe for democracy.....me and my damn fool adventures.
Remember this...no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn....(jim morrison)
Re: thanks - no sweat. It's what we professoresque types do.... ;-)
:-p
;-). Discussion of the ins and outs of grad school is a different thread, though....
Re: the non-compete, it's unlikely that it's enforceable / relevant outside of VA (maybe not even _in_ VA). The IP ownership definitely is, though, so don't play that game if you can avoid it. In the future, one of the best ways to defend yourself from this tactic (trying to steal your pre-job school-days ideas) is to publish _anywhere_. You don't have to put in every last detail if you think it's going to be marketable, but it proves prior art in one step ("as you can see, I was writing about this four years ago..."). Most CS departments have something like Technical Reports, if you don't want to try for something higher order (conference, journal or magazine) - a pretty easy place to make things a matter of record: here's what I've been working on, here's how it's going, here's where it's going, etc.
Final thought on the whole "those bastards are stealing my ideas" problem: do you really think it's likely that they'll be able to do a thing with them since you're leaving? I've had to leave code behind before and I get a big kick out of hearing from my spies about how the PHB just kind of stared at it: "Duh, what's this do?" "That's an rgbColor. You know, red, green, blue?" "Uh, yeah!" Yeah, best of luck with that, weenie boy!
Re: grad school - there's some really sweet graphics / VR / visualization schools out there these days: GA Tech is still #1 (unless I've been out of the loop long enough), Brown #2. Other examples: UNC Chapel Hill, UVA, Utah, Indiana Univ (go figure - they have a load of hardware, though, thanks to the efforts of former grad students
-- Doctor Bob
Hypothetically, my wife is enamoured with France. I decide I'm into it and start looking for a job in France. I know what the salary range is and I'm able to find some job listings in France. But what kind of visa is necessary for an American to work in France? What if neither of us speak the language? Why would a French corp. hire an American anyway? Has anyone dealt with this kind of thing?
This question has doubful useability...
I am a field tech/troubleshooter type guy in the Washington, D.C. area. We command fairly high salaries here because most of the population doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing.
Any "high tech" areas with a large percentage of people without computer skills is going to be the same way.
However, if I were to go to silicon valley or Seattle, or wherever there are a lot of really talented geeks, I wouldn't get paid squat, since my skills wouldn't be unique. Supply and demand, right?
The same goes for coders. An english-only programmer isn't going to find much work programming Malaysian software, you know? Or, a very good Malaysian tech isn't going to get a tech support job here in DC if he/she can't speak any english.
The only way to find out how much you will make is to ask. Be honest. Tell employers your story, and ask what a decent salary for a beginner should be. When you interview, ask for 20 percent more, and negotiate from there.
Computers can only simulate determinism. ~Hermetic.
To tag on the end of this thread:
Does anyone know about what it's like trying to find an IT job, say, in Ulster (NOT in Northern Ireland!)?
"The Devil does not know a lot because He's the Devil, He knows a lot because he's old." -- unknown
I mean the three counties of Ulster which are in the Republic. I'm interested specifically in Co. Donegal... But wondering what I should expect given that JobFinder.ie found all of two IT jobs there :)
If you'd like to address this in private feel free to send e-mail (lance.k.dryden@usa.net).
"The Devil does not know a lot because He's the Devil, He knows a lot because he's old." -- unknown
"stage" is called internship :)
If you want to earn lots and lots of money, apply for a job at WorldOnline, CMG or Cap Gemini. They'll pay you fl 5k/month in the blink of an eye.
But if you're into Linux, Open Source and free software, you might want to look for a job at a smaller company (or even start your own). The salary will be less, but the job more interesting.
Private medicine = better medicine!
/. a while ago). And it's so typical for U.S. people to declaim their system the "better one".
That's a whole other discusssion (one that has been held on
In Holland, you can expect at least fl. 3500 (before taxes) per month if you're fresh out of shool. That's about $1750. Getting a cellphone and notebook is usually no problem.
;).
If you start working at a big company, you can expect fl 5000 (US$ 2500) per month plus a company car. But you'd have to conform to that company (might be hard for die-hard geeks - they tend to love Microsoft).
If you're thirty (-something) and have lots of experience, and don't mind working hard, fl 8500 or more is usually no problem. In Holland, that kind of salary will buy you anything you want. It's about 3 times average.
Big management positions (IT, IS, ITIL management) start at fl 150k/year plus all the usual bonusses.
Remember that healthcare is standard and LOTS cheaper than in the US (that goes for all European countries).
Most salaries grow 10% per year, but this can vary as well. 20% increases are starting to become more common.
Salaries are lower in remote parts of the country (provinces like Limburg or Friesland).
And there's the occasional bonus, some companies will give you up to fl 20.000,- (before taxes) (US$ 10,000) if you stay with them for a year. But those companies are often quite clueless (they think Windows NT is the *only* server OS in the world. And your job will most probably doing VB/ASP stuff, so you don't want that anyway
If you know that you are good at what you do, then the answer is to become a consultant. I'm a consultant for a Pharmaceutical near Philadelphia, 20 years old, and am making $30 an hour (that's $60,000 [USD] a year if I don't put in overtime, which I do). Plus I mostly do HTML and Photoshop work. Periodically we get something interresting like a database driven site, at which time I get to exercise my knowledge of ASP, MSSQL, and Oracle, but that doesn't usually happen too often.
The secret is to know that you are the best, and in allmost all circumstances, prove it. You have to be dedicated. When I started this position a year and a half ago, I made $10 an hour, and trippled it in under a year. If you make yourself valuable, they will not be able to afford not to pay you more. You have to take as many responsibilities as you can. If you don't, you won't be invaluable, and so you won't be worth big raises.
Of course there are downsides to being a consultant. You get kind of hammered on taxes, for one, and there are no benefits. But if you have a spouse that can cover you under their benefits package, then you're doing well. Also, if you're a consultant, take a bit of advice: DON'T DO YOUR OWN TAXES!!!!!!!! Hire an accountant. Let me say this again, hire an accountant. And I don't mean H&R Block either, go to a firm with CPA's. If you do it yourself, you will either pay too much, or if you try to not pay too much, you will end up messing up something, and then it's waiting in line at the IRS, shoebox full of receipts clutched in your sweaty shaking hand.
Another benefit to being a consultant is that a lot of companies don't want to be weighed down with the possibility of you leaving, and so they sign you up on a contract. They can't then just lay you off when it comes time for reorganization. This, of course, means that you'll be tied to them for the length of your contract, but if you've proven yourself in that time, they will be eager to renew your contract, and they will be eager to get you to stay, so up goes the ol' salary.
I don't suggest consultantism if you're not good in your field, though. Your contract probably won't be renewed at the end. If you're one of these people, my suggestion to you is to learn who knows more than you, and study what they do. Do it in your own time. Ask them for samples of their work, and study it. An example of this is that we had hired in a new consultant who knew Macromedia Director like a firecracker (which I did not), and so I went to him and got some samples, and an install for the program. A couple of days later I had working knowledge of the program, and I started producing my own work. When I hit a snag, I could ask him for help, and soon we were operating nearly on par. My indispensibility just went up a couple of points, based entirely on about two weeks of work at home.
Although this is long, I just have to say that there are three things that every consultant needs to do to get a high salary (and keep it).
1. Be dedicated, put in the hours to become the best.
2. Be the best, if someone is better than you, and they need to drop the budget for the quarter, out you go. When you're not the best, become the best by admitting that they're better than you, and then study how they work.
3. Hire an accountant. There are a lot of consultants where I work, and any of them that have not taken this advice of mine end up paying too much, or too little, and paying too little can be much much worse than paying too much.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Salary-wise, for mid-level fairly experienced coders I see new media companies offering around $55-70k annually, and Wall Street offering $80-90k. In my experience, DBA's make slightly more. Senior level coders make about 20% more than that. These are obviously rough estimates, and another engineer in Manhattan may have a different perspective and experience.
There are also a ton of consultants and contractors, who sort of float down Silicon Alley and Wall Street and back up again. The salaries of these folks are hard to figure, and I wouldn't want to embarrass myself by hazarding a guess as to their income.
Cheers,
psn
I hate to point this out, but 80 hrs/wk for interns isn't really that bad. Surgical interns in the US have been known to work 120 hrs in a week. It's a universal problem.
The difference is, in any civilized country, it doesn't cost you your house to pay for health care. Paying for health care effectively makes your salary much less when you realize that you have to save just in case you have a health problem (even if you have insurance, since they're notoriously reluctant to shell out anything, and certainly never immediately).
As a luser-support martyr (ISP Tech Support, lately in documentation), the going rate seems to be $20-30K to start (with annual / promotional increases, of course), higher in major metropolitan areas (the Valley, SF, NYC, Boston, &c).
Top-notch coders seem to be able to command $80K and up (six figures isn't uncommon. . . makes me wish I knew PERL!)
As with every job, having experience means you can command greater compensation. After two-plus years on the job, I've conditioned my employer to add some intangibles to the job environment: tolerance to eccentricity, a certain level of buy-in to new ideas, &c.
Just remember that the full package isn't just the bottom line on your W-2, there are health insurance, 401(k), profit sharing, and any number of other forms of additional compensation to factor in. Ask at the interview what kind of total compensation the company offers, and what kinf of tenure / vesting structure exists. Some companies give health insurance after 90 days, the potential for 401(k) after 6 months, and start vesting in various things after one, three, or five years, depending. There is so much variance with these that it never hurts to ask.
For example, my company offers discounted memberships (payroll-deductible) to the local health & wellness center and free/discounted service to employees. This doesn't show up on my pay stub every other Friday, but is worth probably $40 a month.
Just remember: no amount of financial compensation will make up for a job you don't enjoy. I can speak from experience that a good job atmosphere with interesting and enjoyable work to do makes a smaller paycheck more attractive than becoming a psychotic stress-monkey at a job that makes your gut clench the instant the alarm clock goes off in the morning.
Anyone looking to hire a slightly freaky tech writer?
Rafe
V^^^^V
Rafe
Opinions expressed by the author may not actually exist in the wild.
Occasionally I code here and there to pay for my university tuition fees. Short projects, freelance, practically without references. Pays about $50/hour. Have some friends actually chained to an IT job or *sigh* career. I come up with this:
- Free lance: $25 and up for kids designing websites, $50-75 for the more demanding stuff, $100+ for experts.
- Starting code monkey @ somecompany: $15 @ 1.0 FTE, somewhat higher if part-time, twice as high if on project base.
- Experienced IT engineer/manager: $35-$50
Note, many of the IT firms over here try to seduce you with stocks, gadgets, cars, vacations or one-time $10.000 bonuses. IT's a frenzy. Resumes are relatively irrelevant if you are starting out 2;-p. Many will take the chance and give you some time to prove yourself.
Also an important thing to consider if comparing Europe to US is that every state in Europe has a different tax system (usually higher base income-tax and many times a progressive tax system, ie higher income, higher tax rate)
It's difficult to translate the raw dollars/hour to buying power. Living expenses are typically lower in the Netherlands than in the US. But again this may differ from country to country. Sweden for example is known to be the most expensive of the northern-European countries.
Also tax deductions can have a profound influence on your buying power. Morgage deduction, investment-deduction, transportation deduction, college deduction etc.
My guess is that when your desire is to live and work on the other side of the big pool and you want an accurate estimation of your living standards, you will have to dig fairly deep in the specific laws, regulations and habits of that particular country.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars
I started at my present company making just under a moderate amount (but attractive to be sure), and ended up at the end of my first 15 months breaking the 50k barrier. Reason being: (a phrase that people here throw around) "business sensitivity". And what any company (in corporate America) wants is someone solving business problems. ...technology is a key component, but there's a lot more involved than that. I work with HR on some projects, and I can tell you that there's a sense of reservation for hiring people who can only put technology on a resume.. they want to see people who have solved problems, and who are also competent at the specific tools that entails. Those tools exist to solve those business issues.
Almost no one pays people to sit around and hack. If you do, you will most likely not be making much $$. For the money, you'll be competing with all the MBA people. They will likely make more money out of the gate, but I can tell you for a fact that by-and-large, they are a dime a dozen. Your average geek is much brighter than your average MBA student, so use that to your advantage and help them make sense of their world.
...then your pay check will mostly reflect that, not just the efficiency of your code.
"Man has always been his own most vexing problem." --Reinhold Niebuhr, "The Nature and Destiny of Man"
I'm stuck in one of those helpdesk jobs, spinning my wheels and working a second job (college computer lab) just to keep my car running. My main job is paying US$9/hr+pizza, and making me a very bitter person at an early age...My resume here is the same one that's on monster, meta-tags and all, been viewed just 30 times in like 4 months. Any suggestions?
TIA
mcrandello@my-deja.com
rschaar{at}pegasus.cc.ucf.edu if it's important.
Dr. Dobb's Journal's Fall and Spring special Software career editions offer excellect info on IT salaries and benfifits.
t m
http://www.ddj.com/articles/1999/9913/9913toc.h
This Url is to the spring edition.
I have 5 years web design experience, 2 years strictly professional, BFA in Graphic Design. Master in Photoshop, html, Dreamweaver, others. Know unix, Win9x etc etc. In current professional job for 16 months, pay is $42,000 US (no stock or other) in DC Metro area in Virginia. How much would I make overseas as a good comparison to these skills?
Go to your College carrer office/ career center, whatever. If they are any good they will have binders full of all kinds of info on salary, that will give you a good idea of the going rate based on degree/major/job field/location/etc. You should be able to look up the national salary surveys (done by the college board I think) for the past few years and also may be able to get the survey for grads from your school as well.
Good Luck!I did this when I graduated, and took the information with me to the salary negotiation. It made it much easier to back up my demands and I ended up getting a decent number from my employer (granted that they knew me well from co-op experience and weren't out to lowball me in the first place).
-JeremyH
Why should common health care be free? Where does it say that we have some god given right to health care? Somebody has to pay for it somewhere, and one thing I really hate is being taxed to pay for handouts to people who wont go get a job.
-JeremyH
I dont know first hand what its like over on that side of the pond, but here in America there is an awful lot of abuse of social services. A lot of people get on welfare and stay there, then make no effort whatsoever to find a job. I've heard all kinds of horror stories about people who have lots of children to get more welfare money to support their drug habits and then the kids end up suffering. Its gotten to be so bad that many of our states are now adopting welfare-to-work laws (a good idea, IMHO).
I dont think that handouts are the answer to this. Im all for people helping out those in need if they so choose, what I dont like is big government making that choice for us. All that does is take away more of our freedoms, not to mention making people totally dependant on the government doing everything for them like little children.
-JeremyH
Why do you think that because visiting Americans get these perks overseas, that the locals got them too? Thats ignorant. Most of what I've heard says different:
1. I used to work for a German company (Trumpf)and the German born employees told me that the standard of living there was much lower than here. Up to 50% taxes, higher prices for gas ($3/gal), clothes (50-100 for items like jeans) and food (2-3x what it costs here). They also said that a small apartment over there cost more than a large house on a few acres of land does here.
2. I also once met a guy from Finland who told me that over there most homowners had 50-60yr morgages because the housing was so expensive.
3. I have family who live in Detroit. Out there a lot of the Canadians who live across the water (in Windsor, Canada) have jobs in the US so that they can avoid some of the Canadian taxes and get better US healthcare. Now why would they do that if the Canadian/European system was so much better?
4. Read the long comment about life in England. From what I've heard thats right on the money.
-JeremyH
Well it just makes sense to most Americans, myself included. When you have competition to drive it, it's gotta get better in order to compete!
I doubt we'll ever see the day gov't can do something (apart from national security) better than the private sector. IMO national security is about the only thing gov't should be involved in. It would lower my taxes. :)
CT
Constitutionally Correct
yea, the irish market is booming right now. i just came from the states a few months ago and i'm amazed at how much work is here. although despite all of this work i have not been able to find any software dev. work(although i havn't been looking to hard). i'm living in galway right now and would be intersted in findign out about any software companies that are actively seeking work...right now i'm only going to be her for a little longer, a month or two, but am desperatly trying to find a job that would allow me to stay longer. if you can email me at nomadlogic@graffiti.net, that would be great. cheers!
God is real, unless declared integer.
I only make like $32k (US) a year but I spend it all on women! Did you know if you pay hookers more they will tell you they love you? For a few moments in my dismal life I can be loved, until I have to go buy more crack for my "girlfriends". Also I have spent a small fortune on Swank mags and subscriptions to nasty web sites. Ciao! for some actual info - I make (take home)about 25k after taxes and deductions for insurance, 401(k), and all the rest. all i do is basic maintenance on a large company e-commerce site - very easy work and lots of freedom. I just turned down a job offering me more $ in a UNIX environment - but i stuck w/ the low stress job....
raretshirts.com - cool vintage t-shirts
Comment removed based on user account deletion
In re: job postings which ask *you* to submit an expectation for salary - ignore it. In the interview, when it comes to money, make *them* offer *YOU*. Never, ever give them a figure first, no matter how much it seems impossible. It's like dealing with buying a car - seriously! Ask them what they feel would be fair for your skillset, or what they had in mind for the responsibilities of the position. Often companies have a set range already, and you can probably get them do disclose that if you're careful - as long as you do NOT throw out a number first! If it's not enough, feel free to counter-offer. The worst thing that could happen is they could lowball you, you ask for more and they say no - oh well, you haven't lost anything 'cos they weren't going to pay you enough anyway, and they *didn't want you that badly*. The best thing that could happen is you can get a salary that meets their expectations *and* yours. Yeah, you may get a couple of bum interviews, but it's a couple of hours of your time, and it's good experience, espeically if you're new to the job market.
:)
Re: Salary ranges - The whole "standard salary" for various positions idea is asinine. It only works for positions which have very specific roles, and usually hourly wages along with them, ie, tech support.
The more high level a job is, the more the job description is going to vary. Also, the job title means *nothing*. Network Engineer means anything from NOC monkey who has heard of TCP/IP once, to NT administrator, to the head design engineer at a telco - and salaries vary wildly depending on which you mean. If I go into a company and they want me to run their entire network single-handedly, work 12 hour days 7 days a week, and have 3 direct reports, I'm sure as hell going to want more money than if I had less responsibility, and they're likely to offer me more to begin with. It's all relative.
As to not getting ripped off, it really does depend on where you live, and it's best to ask people locally how much they're making (if that's too intolerably rude for you - you can also ask them for a range that they think is reasonable, which is a little bit less prying).
Ask people you know what they would pay for someone with *your* skills and experience - that's a much better assessment than a random sampling of coders or admins.
Yes, some people get paid a lot more than others, and it's usually due to scarcity of skillset, experience, and demand. If you're a brand new web designer with only your personal pages in your portfolio, don't expect to get any high rolling offers. But if you're a messaging expert with 8 years experience, you'll do just fine... but you knew that already.
NT Admin : $55 - 70K
UNIX Admin $65 - 85K
Oracle DBA : $65 - 120K
HTML Developer $40 - 65K
C/C++ Programmer $50 - 110K
Java Programmer $65 - 120K (very much in demand)
Network Admin : $55 - 80K
Network Design : $70 - 100K
VB Programmer $45 - 80K
PERL Programmer $45 - 75K
Project Manager $60 - 120K
Again, the range compensates for experience, and combination of skills (ie, Unix Admin with some Oracle and C knowledge would be at the 80K level) This is for full-time salaried employees. Independents or hourly types can expect anywhere from a 15-35% premium over those. These salaries are fairly valid for the Boston,DC,Phila. NYC command about 15%-30% more due to cost of living for North Jersey and NYC.
Hope this helps...
That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.
You can drop by your local office and get one (I did in Calgary, AB - CANADA) but you may want to call first to see if they have any (and so as not to swamp them with bodies). They were very friendly and if you have some experience they may offer to take you under their wing. The salaries listed in the booklet are for non-contract type positions. They have offices all over the U.S. and a few in Canada (Calgary, Mississauga, North York, Ottawa, Toronto), one in London and one in Paris.
I am not a spokesperson for them nor do I work with them but the guide they gave me was very well put together - easy to read and gives you the facts without a lot of dribble.
My pimp generated a salary treatment guide based upon this doc, the "Information Systems Compensation Survey, William M. Mercer ltd, 1997-98" and some unknown "Skills Matrix Workshop 04/99".
--Clay
I thought everyone could use a good laugh, while I cry of course. University of Georgia Salaries You thought your's was bad? Pyber_Samurai
Anyway, normal coder in Finland may receive from $20K to $40K in year without taxes and taxrate is around 20% up till 50% (which i happen to be paying from my second job)
--
yush
You might want to check out RealRates.com. It's got some good information, at least for contract work (I didn't really check out their salary survey section, but I'm sure it's OK). Not much good outside US/Canada, but there you have it.
For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong. -H.L. Mencken
So I bring the latest statistics from my region...I usually don't get what I want, but I get more than the initial offer.
Cheers.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
I was promised a three year commitment for $N/year. Of those three years, I would have to work my ass off for the first year to finish the system,
I paid for all of their new computer equipment (bunch of new Dell machines running Linux) out of my pocket
I really hate to dump on someone when they're down, but you're an idiot. Someone *promised* you a 3 year job -- and you didn't get it in writing? You paid for a company's computers out of your own pocket? You're fired the week after you deliver a working system?
That CEO knew exactly what you were doing, he was just screwing you out of everything he possibly could. From what you've said here, you were so busy building the system that you didn't cover your ass. That guy is still chucking at what a fool you are.
If you paid for those computers, and still have the receipts, and have not in some way transferred ownership of them to the company (ask a lawyer; who knows what little thing would count as transfer of ownership) -- go get those computers right now. They're yours; back the pickup truck to the front door and carry them out. They try to stop you, have them arrested for theft.
I Know it's not a forgen country, but it is almost as far away. I know several recent EE, CSE and CS grads who started at about 45-50 kilo-dollers per year.
Americans might want to consider the tax exemptions that you can receive if you earn your income abroad. I think that the value of your salary increases considerably when you factor this in.
Kforce (headhunters, apparently) has a broad set of categories at:
www.kforce.com/ Kforce/salarysurvey.nsf/SalarySurvey?openForm
Select your industry. The mean of their research (not the average, but the mean) is displayed. For more detail they are willing to mail you their stuff ("free") but then you'll be on their mailing list... so how "free" is it really?
By the by, this is probably US/Canada (in $US) positions only, but they don't really say.
Your complaints about being offended offend me.
There is an agreement between Holland and the U.S. wher as an American citizen you pay 5% in taxes for the first fl.70,000(45,000) then 50% after that, and you pay 15% in the US for soc. security. Also, rent is cheap, food... the employer usually pays for car + gas. So It's an _awesome_ deal.
Also healthcare is just as good as it is in the U.S., which isn't saying too much. But it is free. Wouldn't you feel godo knowing that everyone is covered, including friends+family?
How do I know all this? I'm an American engineer who lived there for a year. Your ignorance doesn't surprise me, in Europe they make fun of people like you.
You should stay in America, it is best.
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
Dutch women = tall, blond, hot, nice.
What a great combo!
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
A bigger factor is how long it takes to get a visa, since it determines whether companies want to hire international applicants. Work visas vary a lot from country to country both in terms of time and effort.
.au is that it has MANY companies eager to hire international candidates and they know the process.
Australia - the best anywhere. A company needs to first obtain Pre-Qualified Business Sponsor status (which takes a month), and once they have this, they can hire foreigners easily with a 2 week process per person. Most IT staffing firms have PQBS status, so effectively it takes 2 weeks to get approval for a new employee, and once they have this, the Australian consulate in your country of residence stamps the visa within a day.
The best thing about
http://www.zdnet.com.au/jobs/
http://www.jobnet.com.au/
http://employment.byron.com.au/
Canada - Has a "software pilot" program to grant visas rapidly. Like many things in Canada, this works in theory. Very few companies actually hire people on a work visa, and insist on you being a Canadian citizen/immigrant. Most companies are ignorant of the Software Pilot thingie and get scared on hearing the word "visa". To add to the problem, the time required to get the visa varies extremely - if you are residing in Australia, NZ, or South Africa and apply for this visa, it can take 2-3 months. In the US, it takes less than a week (LA consulate).
Combined with the lack of companies willing to hire on a work permit and the erratic time frame, Canada is not a good option.
try positionwatch.com for jobs.
UK - The UK has a long process requiring the employer to place ads, go thru various hurdles, etc. to get approval for the work permit. It takes about 4-6 weeks, and quite a few IT companies do hire on this basis. try jobserve.com for searches.
Netherlands, Portugal, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Spain - These countries have a "Shenghan" visa agreement, which is a business visa and takes about a week. Some companies get people over on this visa and process a long term visa once you're there, as it takes a while.
Of course, this doesn't apply to EU people, who can move freely across most of Europe. Again, jobserve.com for searches.
New Zealand - NZ has a long process which takes a month+ and few companies are willing to do this. Quite a contrast to Australia.
Switzerland - Possibly the hardest country to get a work permit in. Not a part of the EU, somewhat isolated, and it takes 3 months to get a visa. It isn't exactly a big IT hotspot either. However, business apps. software like SAP is a scarce skill.
Keep in mind that many countries have different rules for citizens of certain friendly countries, and may not require a visa at all if you're from there.
Well, hope that helps.
w/m
-- I'm not a freak show, I'm a mammal. --
I'd agree with the general trend of around fl.4000 per month or fl. 50 000 per year before taxes. Unfortunately, those eat 40% of it, unless the guys that hire you are smart enough to put you into some kind of tax plan for IT and high-skills professionals, under which you pay only 12%. This goes for most IT and telecom companies desperate to get new blood (I did not know about it and the management at my place sucks). Experience gets you more money, and a consultant job also. Ah, and as in a nice social democracy, you work 38 hours and have 2 months of holidays...
Anyway, the Netherlands is a very nice place to live. The Dutch speak English with less accent than the Irish, and you don't need to learn a new language (which is a bonus for the anglo-saxon crowd :-). The cost of living is much less than London or Paris, but decent accomodation is difficult and expensive to find.
The bad points are the omnipresent rain and the eating habits: sandwiches at lunch, potatos for dinner. As I hate rain and put food above anything else, I am bound to move again soon. ;-)
- Shops that hire everyone they can find
- Shops that hire everyone that can do the job
If you're going into a job interview and you either get shuffled through a bunch of H.R. people or don't get challenged technically, you're most likely going to end up frustrated, bored, or both.Those are the jobs taken by people who either can't do what they claim or are just in it for the money.
Personally, I'm not happy unless I'm working in a place where I have respect for my company and coworkers.
I know this discussion is pretty much already over, but if it comes in handy, the cover story for the Nov'99 Softare Development magazine interestingly enough is "The 1999 Salary Survey". I believe its a US only survey, but it still guages salaries by region, profession, age, etc.
According to a pamphlet/newsletter I read, the average starting salary of a CS major out of the University of Texas was 48k/year last year. Unfortunately I don't know anyone with a CS degree out UT personally (or who really "knew their stuff") but... It sounds reasonable, or even a bit low, as I've had two friends in the last year get QA/light programming jobs at around 40-43k year, not counting some hefty bonuses if they stick around the company for awhile. Amazing part about that is, one of these people had no real work experience and a degree in Cellular Biology, the other had no degree had worked at IBM for a decent stint. Another friend of mine (with a Psych degree) who knew his perl and unix now makes 55k year in New York doing QA "teleworking" to his company in San Fransisco after a year. Another, who's had quite a bit of experience with all sorts of web development, and had done quite a bit of work with C++/Java, just moved on from a job making just over 60k/year (no idea what he makes now). That's what I know. From briefly perusing the other comments, it seems like all the above is fairly high in comparison. Got me.
I have been in that sort of situation in a company that could just not pay what I was worth, but I let them get away with paying me dirt while I was going to school. When I was out of school, they still treated me like they could get away with it. I left them. About two weeks after I left, I got a call from the DB Admin there that they had to shut the manufacturing facilities down becasue the network failed and they had nobody who knew how to fix it. That is just not the sort of place that I would want to work for over a long term period.
When I was sixteen I dropped out of school to go and live on my own. I did not have much of a choice. I worked framing construction in Southern California for a few years while I taught myself computer systems at home. Few ask for high school diploma. I was actually able to carefully keep the college which I attended from asking by careful manipulation. The U.S. school systems is horrid and holds no weight.
Today I am twenty-three and a SysAdmin with A+ and CNA in IntraNetWare. I am looking for MSCE before they do the Win2K updates.
You are right. Actually knowledge and having a clue keeps you the job and vaults you to new heights.
The average IT operations type job inside the Redmond Bubble is somewhere between 50K and 70K, DOE and certs., + stock and bennies. Cost of Living is not as high as the Valley or NY, but is higher than, say, the midwest (average apt. goes for $700/mo). Lots of work here too.
CHECK DICE! Lots of great jobs, easy to use. WWAAAYYY better than Monster.
Irish
When I moved from Paris to London, I nearly doubled my salary. I left behind me a highly concentrated urban chaos, its traffic jams, non smiling people, and a very polluted city.
However, I oversaw the following facts
I had left a badly paid job in a service consultancy company for a highly pay job in an investment bank,
the GBP is currently quite high compared to the Euro,
health service in France is free and doesn't suck (in fact I got so scared by the low quality of equipment and service in the UK that I go to France when I need to see a doctor !),
Paris is a real city, London is nothing else than a very small center with very large suburbs,
London hasn't got many movie theaters (at least compared to Paris)
I pay USD 1100 per month for a studio here in London - the same would give me a 2 bedroom flat in the center of Paris (althought the Paris market is waking up now after a ten years slump...)
transport infrastructure in the UK is a shame - roads are in bad conditions, the Tube (London subway) a nightmare and as for the trains, well, now there's an accident every few months. On the opposite, France hosts the most advanced train system in the world with high speed trains (they hold the world speed record), good highways, and the Paris subway (they call it the Metro) is efficient and inexpensive (but how dirty !!)
UK credit cards still don't use smart cards - smart cards have been widely used in France for nearly 20 years!
French law forces the employer to give 5 weeks holidays, and to pay minimum 50% of everyone's daily expenses (transport and lunch),
UK IR taxes are much higher than French ones (but in France, they have stupidly high hidden charges no one understands, so I guess it's the same),
net connexions in Paris are thru cable or ADSL - I use a 56K modem in London...
Altogether, I know that life is much better in Paris than in London - except for the Parisians. Londonners are nice and friendly if compared to Parisians. And no one speaks english in France ! (in fact they do but why should they make an effort ?)
Here in NYC, E-Commerce and Web Design are king. The going yearly salary hovers around 60k-70k, for someone who can do both (well). The better the performance of the site you are working on, the more you can get down the road. up2ng http://www.up2ng.com
Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion, you must set yourself on fire.
Just out of school, I got started at $45,000. Of course, you have to look at the cost of living in DC.
When you're crushing a man's windpipe with your knee, you can be sure he will attempt to bite you.
Loads and loads of Irish lassies! As far as the eye can see!
A little bit of Siobhan in my life, a little bit of Molly by my side, a little bit of Colleen all night long...
I am a 19 years old and I live in Northern Virgina. I am working for a Temp agency and have had a variety of jobs through them. Currently I am working for a large Gas company. When I first got here they had us hand checking problem accounts, when they found out I knew alot of about databases and use to do alot of web/database stuff they had me learn access and finish a tracking system for these ~30,000 problem accounts. It assigns work to the employees and has various status. Bottom line is I'm making 10.50$ an hour and feel i should be making more. How much more is the question. I am only going to be working here for 2 more months (I am going back to school in Lawton, OK [IF ANYONE KNOWS OF ANY GOOD JOBS OUT IN OK LET ME KNOW PLEASE!]) I do alot of work with access, designing tables, queries, reports. I built an excel spreadsheet with MS Query and we run all reports from there. so PLEASE tell me what roughly i should be making if anything more! And maybe if you all know of anything good out in Oklahoma. -Brian
The going rate for a Civil Engineering graduate in Sweden is about 18 000 SEK (slightly more than US$2000) per month. This is slightly higher for computer oriented proffesions, but not always, as Swedish engineers are grossly underpayed compared to their EC and US/Canada counterparts. An expert in a highly specialized field, such as network designing or some forms of situation specific coding (such as controlprograms for the Swedish military unmaned Helo experiment) can get as much as 35 000 (about $4000) with a few (say 5) years of experience. These are the correct numbers but you have to calculate taxes and benefits into this. Income tax in Sweden ranges from 30% to 50%. Benefits are usually nonexistent, instead employees are expected to rely on the state benefits, such as fairly cheap and pretty good medical and dental care (optometrists and contacts are another matter). Companies often sponsor employees with cars, mobile phones and similar essentials, but they count as part of the salary and you have to tax for them.
Phase 1: Where do you want to go today? Phase 2: This is where you want to go today. Phase 3: You're not going any
Graduate salaries at Corporate IT shops ~34K Graduate Salaries at software Houses up to 40K The national average salary is about 35K. With 5 years, you could expect to be at around 55K. Most jobs over about 90K aren't advertised with a salary attached. In terms of standard of living, 1 A$ buys you more than 1 $US, particularly when you compare the big cities. In terms of my salary, I earn about 75K Aus, I've been offered 100% travel US consulting jobs for 100K+. Its not worth the disruption.
~snort~snuffle~root~
In the Philippines, developers with 2-5 yrs work experience who grok Java, C++, OOAD, RDBMS in Unix, NT, Solaris, and Linux (plus COM, CORBA, etc) get paid 4-5 time the minimum wage. Sounds big? NOT! Mininum wage is about US$125/month. So it's around US$500-US$625. With the same skill set, you can get $9000+K/month (average) in the Bay Area/Silicon Valley. But cost of living in the Bay Area is unbelievably high compared to other states. (All values are before tax)
The first job offer I had in the UK was 24k after I graduated from uni..
Ireland is great to live in. But, you should probably note some of this stuff first: Housing is Dublin is expensive. Like £90K($121K) for a one bed apartment / £170K($229K) for a 3 bed terrace type expensive. Cheaper outside of Dublin - my 3bed in the west would cost about £70K($95K) now. Cars in Ireland are expensive. The gov charges import duty on cars, then VAT (21%) on top of that. A Ford Mondeo 1.6l (US=Contour) costs upwards of £16K($21.5K) Tax is high. 46% over £14K PA, with a tax free allowance of £120/Week, works out to more than 1/4 of your pay. Petrol is expensive. £0.65 per litre, or over £3($4.25) per gallon. Pay is quite good. I'm admin for a 40-user network in a production environment in the west of Ireland, with no formal qualifications but 3 yrs experience, and I'm on about £24K ($32K). With an MCSE I could add £10K to that. Mind you, if anyone from the States offered...
Well, while we're on the subject of IT salaries, I was wondering what kind of scale DBAs - either in development or production support - are finding themselves on. I've heard that 45k USD is below-average (this is in Colorado Springs, CO).
Any comments would be well-appreciated!
M.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Use what talent you possess:
the woods would be very silent if no birds sang
Use what talent you possess:
the woods would be very silent if no birds sang
except those that sang best.
If you want to leave, leave, never use another offer as leverage. Even if you do get the counter offer you want, it will just be so they have time to interview your replacement. Never put management up against a wall, they will retaliate.
Replying to johnath@no.cannedmeatsubstitute.psych.utoronto.ca The going rate for Unix Administrators with Network and Firewall Exp. is from $60-175.00 per hour. I have 11 years of various types of experience and gave up working for a salary last year. Now I'm in downtown Chicago, contracting for Bank of America and very happy. If you want to make a good living and get great experience, consider contracting yourself out. Don't know how to become a contractor? Maybe that should be an "Ask Slashdot Topic?" or just email me...
Definitly check out this site. It has real rates posted by real people. Not what the IT managers want you to think the going rate is. Definitely an eye opener. Plus there's a great bbs for consultants.
I just moved back to Ireland after 6 years in the US. 4 of those years were in the IT sector (Network Engineer). I am getting IRL £40,000 salary (this includes bonuses etc), this equates with about $55,000 USD. I came over from Tucson, AZ and actually matched my previous salary exactly but it must be noted that I passed up a raise when I left. The cost of living is also more in Dublin than Tucson. The Irish economy has sustained the highest economic growth rate of any industrialized world over the past 5 years (8%). I am amazed at the changes I have seen since I returned. Ireland has a huge growth rate in IT. Microsoft, Dell, HP, 3com and others have large facilities here. The government is pushing e-commerce as a major industry and wants us to become the e-commece capital of Europe. If you are thinking of moving to Ireland ask yourself some questions. Do you like to drink? (a yes is good here) Do you mind the rain? (it's a tad moist!) Do you mind small things? (cars, bedrooms, apartments etc) Do you like to drink? Do you want to buy a house here? (forget it, it's more expensive than Tokyo) Do you have kids? Best educational system in the world. Do you dress like a geek? (It's a bit friggin trendy!) Do you like to drink? Socially, it's excellent. Low crime, excellent clubs and pubs, a very sociable people with whom you can have stimulating conversation with for hours. And for all those who are worried about the IRA, bombs etc. There hasn't been any violence in the south (Irish republic) since 1922 and even the north is quiet these days, they've had a ceasefire for 4 years (there has never been an American killed or injured in political violence up there)
Amen to what smutt said. I bailed out of the inner Virginia suburbs almost two years ago and the outer VA suburbs ten years ago. I am never going back. It was way to uptight. DC itself was cool, but prohibitively difficult and expensive to live in. The mass transit was good, but not as convenient as NYC and owning a car was a real pain in the ass in DC. My current home (San Diego) is way chill. The pay is a bit lower and the housing ain't any cheaper; but there is always someone to play frisbee with in the park, and the weather is always warm enough to make playing frisbee with strangers practical. BTW, 60,000 for a network engineer MSCE/CCNA with minimal professional UNIX experience is pretty easy to come by in San Diego.
Im in Australia - contracting for a type of Bank - and earning roughly 120K AUD - or $80US Im a SysEng (MCSE, CNA)late 20's - with round 5 years exp and previously middle-management/people experience. Althought - that aspect has taken the back seat for the want of technical diversity. Today's environment's CRY OUT for PEOPLE FOCUS and SERVICE (WITHOUT THE BULLSHIT-IM-A-GOD-U-JUST-WAIT-YOUR-TURN mentality) *I dont have a degree, although I started one but decided I didnt want to be a Pro-Nerd *I am people focused *I am passionate about 'Puters and how they can benefit just about every part of an Organisation and 5 years ago - I saw that both IT and Business Skills/Exp and P2P Comm's -> were becoming a single required thread. {oh I just made a new TLA! People2People Communications} LOL If your Diplomatic, got 'Relates-well-2-others' on your school report cardz - and are prepared for some potential High Stress Environments -> The Finance Sector is where to head. Speaking of where to head - what the job market like in the US Banking Sector for International SysAdm's? ie Aliens without greencardz? but with solid NT, NetWare, Messaging, Admin, Service skills - and further exp with router, bloomberg, Reuters, Triarch, Solaris Lvl 1 supp ...?