Slashdot Mirror
Dell To Offer Windows-Less PCs
An anonymous reader submits: "As a follow-up to the Slashdot story Dell No Longer Selling Systems w/o Microsoft OS, News.com is reporting that Dell will sell systems without Windows. Microsoft's new licensing terms stipulate they can't sell PC's without an OS (hence the removal of the NoOS option), so Dell will be offering FreeDOS as an option for some computers. It will come with the computer, but not installed, so that users may install any other OS that they wish. It's a very creative interpretation of Microsoft's licensing terms, and one I imagine Microsoft didn't have in mind."
Who else could n't see this comming? Having said that I was expecting it to be some kind of Linux distro.
How many lawyers does it take to find a loophole like that?
I'll definitely be getting a Windows-free Dell!
Weeeeeeeeeee. Bust out the Lindows!
Hooah for Dell.
I use M$ products, I'm gaining their certifications, but I don't like how they do a lot of their business, and I think Dell's doing something great here by not just bending to each one of the big corporation's wishes.
Kudos Dell!
- Jones
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.
I was hoping Dell would be creative enough to do something like this. When I read the first story, I turned to my wife and predicted they would do this. It's probably the first prediction I've ever made that was right. ;)
If they're going to offer the software, without it being installed, why FreeDOS and not Linux? Is anyone actually going to use FreeDOS?
It is not windows
It is not not Micro$oft
What the fuck is it?
Give it a look
Of all the free OS's out there, why FreeDOS of all things? (Not that there is anything wrong with FreeDOS, it just wouldn't be my first choice for a modern workstation OS).
Why put freedos on it? Why not Linux?
I'm heartened to see them doing the right thing-- continuing to be willing to sell customers completely legal things that they want to buy even if that is what another very powerful company doesn't want.
On the other hand, it's utterly ridiculous that Dell would even have to perform this end-run around Microsoft's licensing terms in the first place.
Anybody want to place bets on how long it will be before Microsoft changes their licencing terms again to prevent Dell from what they're doing now? (Or perhaps M$ will just tell Dell that they've decided not to licence Windows to them at all; they've used those sorts of threats in the past.)
(Who appointed Microsoft as the regulatory agency for the computer industry anyway?)
-Rob
Tell me I'm being cynical, maybe, but have you ever read even a Microsoft EULA? I mean, they don't just say 'Do not make illegal copies of this disc.' They say things like, 'You may not use this software on more than one computer. Even if the other computer is in a Jaccuzzi. Even on Sundays. Especially if there's a full moon.'
Er, what I mean to say is, why would Microsoft stipulate no OS, but *not* stipulate no Linux, and if they did, why did Dell only figure this out now?
You mean, a PC an run without a Microsoft product installed?
If the MS contract just says they can't ship the system bare, why not install Linux?
Also, does this mean that Microsoft's contract clause will go unchallenged? Who the heck is Microsoft to say whether Dell ships their hardware with or without an OS on it?
This interpretation of their license agreement can only lead to more money for the lawyers!
Maybe putting (but not installing) Mac OSX would be an even more interesting idea. Even though OSX won't run on PC hardware, it would still be an operating system...!
"May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"
1. The systems will cost just as much as if you'd ordered them with Windows in the first place.
2. They're aimed primarily at large companies and won't, for the most part, be available to consumers via Dell's web site. (their workstations will, but not the generic line of optiplexes.
Given point 1, I fail to see how this is a Big Deal, other than the obvious snub at Microsoft.
--kurt
Gentoo Linux http://gentoo.org/
.. for weaseling their way around the MS license agreement.
However, I doubt this will be long lived. MS will close that hole soon. They have more lawyers than Dell.
Nice try, though.
Software Wars
I have get a few new NEC PCs that are having FreeDOS installed, too.
That just happened a month ago.
modify it's licensing, and force them to agree. Otherwise they won't be able to sell pc's with Winblows...
Like any EULA...
I'm sorry, but I just don't see Dell as a quality "canned" pc anymore. They do have some good packages (w/monitor/printer/etc.), but I don't think I would buy one... with or without an OS.
It is nice to know they didn't completely cave in to M$ pressure, though.
My sig sucks.
Considering that most vendors won't sell you a PC without a Windows license, I was beginning to wonder just what the hell the point of the Microsoft Select licenses was. I mean, wasn't it supposed to be that by buying them in volume, we'd get a discount? Wasn't this discount kind of, erm, compromised by the second license MS wants you to buy with new hardware?
This should have been a provision of any settlement the govt. accespted in the first place, but at least someone is doing it on their own. If Dell makes this stick, hopefully others will follow.
-brennan
This is what the original letter quoted in the original \. article said. Re-read it. I'm beginning to think the editors here don't quite care enough anymore to be thorough.
We all know why microsoft has that stipulation in their license... basically to force computer manufactures to put out machines with Windows if they wish to put out machines with Windows at all. So, if they wish to continue trying this, then they will have to be more explicit in what operating system they mean. Probably to the point that they say "Sell only PCs with Windows on them." I don't see this happeneing on Microsoft's part because they're not that stupid.
<random flame>
Such a monopoly. I know that justice is supposed to be blind, but I didn't realize that the DoJ was blind, deaf, and dumb all at the same time.
</random flame>
Humorless sig goes here.
Dude, you got stuck with a Dell.
I am blessed with a Dell here at work.
It reminds me of an Acer pile of crap I used back in '90.
Oh well.
n : any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought... Dict.org
Pixels keep you awake!
They probably didnt dare to ship linux as it would have been to thumb their noses at Microsoft a little to obvious. Freedos is a pretty useless OS today on the desktop if your not into DigDug or KingsQuest 2. I would imagine they choose it because it wont compete head to head with windows like linux would have done.
HTTP/1.1 400
Here's a line of crap from the article:
The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.
My ass. It exists to sell MORE MICROSOFT PRODUCTS. I'm not even normally a MSFT basher, but even someone completely asleep at the switch should see something wrong with that line.
How is this possible?
Did I catch the article correctly? This option would be available for businesses. I don't see mention of this option for personal purchase. I am personally not a Dell user, but what about those of us at home?
If you don't like this . . . MOD someone else up.
Only problem with this plan is they plan to charge you just as much whether you buy one with windows or not.
Which is when Dell introduce windows on all their pcs. That would be kinda cool.
It was time to upgrade my web server about 6 weeks ago. I found a great deal on Dell's site for a loaded 500sc server for under $500. Added some moemory, upped the processor and ordered the box with no OS from Dell for $699. The same box with RHLinux pre-installed was $100 more. Win2K adds $800.
I'm glad Dell offers RH pre-installed, but I prefer to install myself. So - thats what I did. Was Dell doing something illegal last month when they sold me the box?
Sure many of us here probably build our own machines, but if you do plan on buying one of these, do it on the phone. Ask the salesperson if they can ship it with Linux (or your favorite OSOS).
If they say no, then tell them you want to place a customer request that they offer that because that is what you are going to install anyway and then order it.
If they get enough requests for it, then maybe they will warm back up to the OSS desktop market.
Of course, this may have no effect but it doesn't hurt to try.
As for the price being about the same, and only being available to corporate customers (or at least more readily available to them) it all begins to sound like Dell isn't so much offering an alternative to Microsoft as offering a way to avoid having duplicate (and useless) Microsoft software licenses lying around.
unless you're working for a nice large company who deals w/ dell, and will let you in on their contract. besides, you're still paying for it, you're just not getting it.
N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.
they're not even avoiding the "tax"! the article also states that these are only available for LARGE corporate accounts, you and i won't be able to order them through dell.com. nice pr move dell, but you've still gotta let us order a pc w/o the M$ OS. I don't want it, and I don't need it!
Fromn the article "N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said."
Dell should make them at least somewhat less expensive than the ones sold with Windows. At least the labor they save on not having to slap the HD in the duplicator and then in the case.
And, as no doubt others will point out, why not load a useful OS on there.
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
Two articles on slashdot, the last one incredibly positive is more marketing then the "dude you got a dell" guy can do in a year. :)
Supplying FreeDOS with an OS-less machine was just a token gesture to use the loophole in the licence MS has with them. It's small and basic, and to coin a phrase used in the UK "It does exactly what it says on the tin". It's unlikely to be installed by anyone getting one of these PCs, they are going to know a fair amount about OSes anyway or possibly already have a windows version ready to pirate on to the box. Had Dell provided Linux as the token OS offering, they would have no doubt received countless support calls and possibly constant complaints for the most basic of things like getting online or installing new software. Also which distribution? What about a *BSD? They would have had every linux vendor begging to be a partner causing them hastle possibly expecting some money too (unless they shipped with the honest-it-is-easy-to-install debian, but I won't go there). FreeDOS is clearly the best way to go, Linux would have opened a very large can of worms.
I love 'em - oh, you said "FreeDOS".
-----
Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.
...and I was hoping Dell would cave-in to MS, but revolt by slipping razor blades into the Windows CD sleeve.
"Ouch! What the-? Razor blades?! I'll never use Windows again!"
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
How much do you not like "how they do business?" Apparently you don't care enough to refrain from propping up their empire by attaining their certifications and giving them your money to promote their stuff with your certified title.
Being pragmatic and making money off of helping people with what they choose to use is one thing, but supporting a business entity that you claim not to like is unprincipled, IMHO.
MS first? Please. MS is a giant of a company with lots of $$$ but keeping a reseller like Dell happy has got to be pretty high on their list. And, for all you conspiracy types, it's probably just another piece of MS's grand strategy to beat the anti-trust lawsuit...:)
Excerpt:
...
:-)
> The company will not promote the new models
> heavily, let alone make them easy to purchase.
> N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that
> ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.
So on one hand Dell will get more margin, but they don't want to sell more of them? They could just pay Microsoft for Windows, and not put it in the box
Since Dell is making a fair bit of extra profit on each machine (the computers will cost the same as one with Windows preinstalled), I wonder would Dell make a small contribution to the FreeDOS project for each PC sold? I mean, even a couple of bucks at the volumes these Dells will probably sell at could mount up fairly quickly...
This "new" PC system, is again only available to big buyers, you won't be able to order single Optiplexes sans Windows from their website.
Basically this is an old news rehashed as new news marketing droid PR stunt.
If you want a PC without Windows on it, your best bet is still Walmart.
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --Albert Einstein
Linux users are a picky bunch anyways (i know i am), some of them want Debian, others are Slackware users, while others want Mandrake or Redhat, so why bother having all these different distros on CDrom in shop to be included with a shipping computer at a moments notice, when an experienced Linux user will have their own prefered Linux distro to install allready...
It's a very creative interpretation of Microsoft's licensing terms, and one I imagine Microsoft didn't have in mind."
Do you really think that Microsoft didn't think of this possibility? Do you really think that amongst all of their lawyers, advertising people, etc. they couldn't think of an outcome such as this?
Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if Dell went to Microsoft and asked them what the other options were, and Microsoft told them that this WAS one of them!
Isn't this kind of B.S. that the anti-trust case is about? What kind of software vendor tells a PC maker they can't sell a PC without speciific software included?
This is the kind of thing that makes me hope that M$ gets spanked clear into the middle of next year by Judge Kollar-Kotelly.
The most charitable thing I can say about Micro$oft is that they could be so much more than the festering abscess they've become if it weren't for their blind imperialism and obsession with maintaining a hegemony.
Vortran out
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
To me this is pretty simple. If Dell doesn't sell you what you want then you CAN shop elsewhere. I say support the companies that are building workstations which come pre-loaded with Linux. There are plenty to choose from just go looking around.
-Zorka
"With enough memory and hard drive space, anything in life is possible!"
Good point. I hadn't thought of that.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
How many can you afford?
Berto
1) OS Support - any desktop support specialist (Read low pay minimal skils) can talk you through an install over the phone. 99.9% of purchasers won't be installing it anyway. What is freedos one floppy?
2) App Support - no applications to support
3) Alternative OS Support - an OS like linux would require support specialist trained in linux.
4) Quite a number of purchasers wil use MS Windows Disk they already own.
[ nelson ] /nelson ]
HA HA!
[
This post is anonymous to protect against downgrading from overly aggressive moderators.
Microsoft can do pretty much whatever they want and most people and company's just don't really care all that much, however this last move was a bit too far and most definately an example of anti-competitiveness rather than the anti-piracy measure they would have you beleve it to be. However not being able to buy a PC without an OS is not a concern for the mass majority of people. Now, we're all /.'s and we definately care a great deal about this, mostly just because we're all nerds and geeks who like to install an OS for the fun of it, but another perfectly valid reason for our caring (and in my opinion more important) is the fact that it seems Microsoft is trying to be a bully agian and we are all just really, really tired of that position from MS, as a matter of a fact if they started to act decent I might actually have a few good things to say about them.
Are they going to load it up with FreeDOS?
Not like it takes much to do a good old format, but why waste my time with me having to do it?
I though Microsoft Declared Dos dead from Windows Millenium, Now in 2002, DOS is COMPETITION with windows xp. HAHHHAAAAAA
looks like we're about to give them a Free DOS.. sorry, couldn't resist. :)
I know there's Yellow Dog Linux that runs on Macs, and my understanding is that they even allow dual booting (No! Imagine that!).
Has anyone tried running YD Linux on a Powermac? Any thoughts on the results? I don't have a reason to do it (OS X works just fine for me, including XDarwin), but there's always that idea of retiring the old Powermac someday and turning it into a server. (Why? Um...because I can?)
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
you've got dos!
geek page at KY speaks
So if Dell is sell the systems for the same price as if Windows was included that means Dell is pocketing a nice hunk of change; What about MS? This has gotta hurt MS' sales since in the past companies buying the PCs would have a site license for x number of machines, plus all the systems coming in would already have an OS license included.
Microsoft is taking a hit on this one, right were it hurts the most, in their pocketbook.
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
If the world's most successful Intel PC maker has to do stuff like this, how can Microsoft argue it is not a monopolist?
The pattern, from Microsoft to the RIAA, seems more and more protectionist. Which is all very well, but protectionism stifles innovation and new business models. It's a tragedy that at a time when things are changing so fast, when a grasp of what is happening in the rest of the world is increasingly important, that instead of having a government that can hold monopolists and protectionists in check and encourage innovation, we sem to have a US government that is run by them and thinks that foreigners are funny people who don't matter unless they might be able to stop oil from flowing.
Dell has always been a company that challenged the conventions, and its low-cost manufacturing has been an example of how to respond to globalisation. It's ridiculous that they are being hampered by the sort of 19th century practices that Marx banged on about.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
I think you missed something or I mis-read this line from the article "Individuals will be able to purchase n-Series Precision workstations, but not Optiplex PCs, via Dell's Web site. " Now if I understand that, Dell is just restricting the Optiplex PCs, not the Precision workstations.
I am not up to date on the status of the FREEDOS project, but.
Dell should make at least shure the NIC and/or modem drivers are preinstalled and functioning.
Maybe even make the DELL's automatically look for a kernel sever.
Two reasons:
1. Your big compagny could just give the machine in the box to the employee, let him/her hook it up to a socket in the wall, and let the FREEDOS fetch the latest version of the OS used in the compagny and install it to a seperate partition. (would work for *nix)
2. employee fu*** the system up, dails helpdesk...
helpdesk explaines how to boot the freedos partition, freedos fetches fresh latest version. done. no walking involved.
Does this mean that MSFT still gets their piece of silver (aka license) for a FreeDOS machine?
I would then proceed to install Linux the first day I got the computer, without ever booting up Windows, and ask for a refund for the software. Others have done it. If they are going to charge me the same amount, then why not prove a point? Worst case, you don't get your refund, which you wouldn't have gotten anyway, but maybe you can get the point across. Best case, you get your point across and maybe get a few bucks for your trouble.
Not the easiest solution, but it kind of sounds like fun.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
OS X is rather slow on my Old World G3 tower. YDL is more than usable- one might say snappy and responsive. With all the software available on the distribution and the ability to run MacOS 9 as a VM, it's a good alternative to OS X.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
But who gets the money that is saved by not shipping Windows? Is any money saved at all? Previous incarnations of this sort of deal had the manufacturer pay Microsoft for a Windows license anyway.
I think it's a big deal whether you are sponsoring DELL for taking on Microsoft, or are actually making some sort of implicit mandatory donation to Microsoft, just to be spared from the horrors of running Windows.
A very important detail that I am sure almost everyone will miss. For me the added cost of Windows is almost not relevant, I spend more money on Linux, I just don't want to give my money to MS.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
About Time.
Good job dell.
Just checked Dell's website. If you're a business (even a small one-person business), you can already buy a Dell w/ Redhat 7.3 preinstalled.
Of course this is all wrong. It's not microsoft's task to make companies check every license. I should not be obligated to tell anyone what I will run on my pc's before I am allowed to buy them.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Since it can partition any disk type. :-)
so you can remove linux or other weird partition type's you cant with MS-DOS fdisk. So now when you dont know how for example linux fdisk works, cause its plain more complicated then the MS-DOS fdisk some folks are used too. Then get your selve a copy of FreeDOS fdisk. It has the same interface as MS-DOS fdisk, but much better features
Wow...and its free with a Dell PC...
It's not just the saved step and saved labor. It's also the reduced complexity in licensing. If a big corp buys a site license, they don't want extra copies under other licenses running around loose...
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
No, I have not read any windows EULAs lately so I have no idea if this is possible, but if the cost is the same, I'd take the one with Windows and donate the license to a local school.
>>I'd be just as happy to know that Microsoft wasn't getting paid a tax out of my money for purchasing a computer.
In fact, with this deal you are paying a non-Windows tax. They are charging you the same money as if they were installing Windows and pocketing it. Plus they don't have any obligation to support Windows on this system, further lowering their costs, and the system with Windows was profitable in the first place. These systems are a practical joke by Dell and you're the target for thinking that you're some how better off.
Let's see...
1981
Would that have been Opel or Akers?
Or at that time, in that 'maverick-PC' environment, was the real decision down at the level of Don Estridge?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
is how can you see out?
Try NetBSD... safe,straightforward,useful.
You might not think this is important since most people here build their own PCs anyway, but in the near future, if the governments of the world get their way, the PC will be a closed box that you, have to buy as a whole, it will matter if it comes with Windows or not.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
The original poster says that MS says that Dell can't sell PCs without an OS.
Am I correct in thinking that this actually means that Dell's agreement with MS to resell Windows means that it also has to agree to MS's demand that it not sell other PCs without an OS ? If this IS the case, then surely MS have got to be infringing some fair trade agreement ???? Surely no supplier is allowed to make such a demand !? Can anyone enlighten me on this ?
If this isn't what it means then what does it mean ?
What I want to know is, How much for a copy of FreeDOS?
Computational Madness in a round package.
That's why it's a win for Dell to be able to ship machines with no OS at all. They can't be expected to handle software support calls for machines that didn't come with any software whatsoever. So they can charge less for a no-OS machine than they can for a FreeDOS machine.
The Microsoft tax strikes again.
What all the geeks that want to see linux support from a major hardware compnay need to do is to stop buying anything from Dell, Gateway, etc.
If you are the CTO for a major company, call Dell and tell them you will not support their company until they offer you a true choice in operating systems.
If I ever buy a pre-built computer again, it will be from a company that actually supports Linux, and won't send the price difference to Microsoft.
I swore MS would never get another dime from me, and I meant it.
Actually, I think the word you're looking for is "bought"
"The more you tighten your grip, *Microsoft* , the more *computers* systems will slip through your fingers."
If this flies, ya gotta love it.
Turnabout may not always be fair play, but sometimes it does justice.
Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.
It was just this kind of "creative" contract interpretation that let Microsoft screw Spyglass pretty much out of existence.
PS: I hear that Spyglass picked up a little justice of its own in the form of a lawsuit settlement. Seems Microsoft told the Court some things in the antitrust trial that affected the way the Spyglass contract should be read. Guess they figured no one was paying attention.
how long do you think it'll be before MS fixes this loophole? I'll bet their lawyers are all in a huge board meeting right now talking on this very issue.
Dell still pays Microsoft because they're required to--the way I understand it, whether or not they have Windows on a computer they sell, they have to pay for a copy of windows for that computer, and thus, so does the consumer. Otherwise, M$ won't let them sell any computers with Windows on them. It doesn't really work to bash Dell for this--they're nearly as much a victim as we are.
I'll grant that Dell is still a big company, and probably wouldn't hesitate to leave many consumers out in the cold if it meant a hefty profit, but do you really think they'd just GIVE money to anyone, least of all M$, who have some pretty draconian licenses for them? I doubt it.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
Today they say that if you sell a box it got to have OS if you want to sell their products. And the only thing they can do tomorrow is that they'll say it got to be their OS.
Actually, they are not only playing with fire, they are playing with a flame thrower next to the court of law. And they're not afraid because everyone love and trust them and pay for them just because it's so fun.
And everyone is happy except everyone else but them...
Just as the FreeDOS disk will be useless to most people who buy these Dell PCs.
FreeDOS might be just what the doctor ordered. There's still a lot of legacy custom software for DOS that some corporations need to run. And until the company's IT team gets around to putting FreeBSD on the machines, the developers can still write and test code using DJGPP (GCC for DOS) and spend time playing games such as Doom Legacy, Quake 1, or Tetanus On Drugs.
DOS will never die.
Will I retire or break 10K?
You can give me my XP license when you staple it to my cold, dead hands.
My next notebook WILL be that Inspiron after all.
What a second what about selling no OS?
Oh wait you said Microsoft said they couldn't.
WHAT!? Microsoft can tell you what to do with a computer?!?!? So thay have the power to say all PCs must come with a PCI slot and a Intel Proccessor? So they can tell me I can't have my glowing neon case mod?
We are now letting Microsoft dictate how we do business? If I just deside to build a computer from parts and sell it I'm now bound to install some kind of OS? When did I agree to this?
Now I'm scared. I'm really paranoid. I'm going to be looking in every closet from now on to see if there is a Microsoft rep lurking about. I'm going to save every scrap of paper I find incase it happens to be an end user license agreement. Look under your beds. GnuPG every file you have! Microsoft is coming to town!!!
> SELECT * FROM brain_cells WHERE synaptic_rate > 0
0 row returned
Why is everyone praising Dell here?
This was just a business decision for them to make more money.
If company X installs their own licensed/unlicensed, customized OS on every PC in their office, what need do they have to go with Dell if they have to pay MS tax all over again?
The market is tight and Dell will try to bring in every buck.
This decision wasn't meant to spite MS, obviously.
What I would like to see them do is (as was suggested by another reader) partner up with a big Linux company to provide service and support for the OS, and for Dell to seriously provide alternate desktop and server solutions for the general public as well as business buyers. Maybe this first step is a move in that direction? A test perhaps, to see how viable such a product line would be to their business.
Should we be slagging them, or buying their products to send them a message? Feel free to comment (no flames, decent conversation please)
As a personal sidebar, I own two machines at home. A (relatively) new Dell with WinXP, and another older PC with Redhat. Small steps for me too. :)
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Seems to miss the fact that Dell are aiming these boxes to major customers, those ordering in the 1000's at a time. There is an option for Joe Public to buy online, but its one specific workstation model. How many home users are going to think "Ooooh, thats good, no OS!". Most are gonna think "What? No windows? I dont want that!"
The up shot is that the guys buying these things are gonna be the big corporates who would strip and rebuild whatever OS came on it to start with to match their corporate config. So whatever its supplied with it gets what they use. There is no net change in OS usage as a result.
At the end of the day I'd say its nothing more than Dell getting a bit of good publicity by putting up two fingers to MS's licencing terms rather than promoting OS choice.
If they can change their licensing scheme on demand, they can change it to cover this loophole. And if they can't they could just buy them out if they really wanted to. There's no stopping a company that large.
How about Dell includes some sort of unsupported sampler bundle with different Linux distros, FreeDOS, and anything else they could think of. Really, how much does it cost to burn a cd nowadays? If you are going through the trouble to make a FreeDOS disk, why not go the full monty and just say "Here... these are some sample operating systems you could run on our hardware, but don't call us for support".
Surely just as including an AOL disk with the PC, this couldn't get them in hot water with MSFT?
Kind of like the unsupported folder a company I used to work for would include on our software cdrom for our customers to take advantage of, saving themselves and our network bandwidth.
on the frontpage of slashdot, hit your pagedown key twice, then pageup then pagedown, thenpageup, then pagedown, really quickly...
be amazed as you watch Bill borg morph into tux in a business suit with a briefcase....
fun for the whole family!
This isn't new, the German computer assemblers Maxdata having been doing this for sometime, offering Dr Dos with their machines with the understanding no one will install and therefore no-one will ask for support. The difference? well Maxdata dont charge you the same. you get approx 80 quid off the price, which can only mean one thing,
Dell and Microsoft have agreed this marketing strategy to direct market sales to those of us who dont like to think any money has gone to the every growing bank of Microsoft. Maybe Dell are sitting there with a bigger margin, maybe they are buying licences and a re filling a massive warehouse full of MS OS media, who cares. Theres no benefit of buying a dell machine if the cost is the same, Id much prefer to have the MS software at the same price so i can make myself smile as i throw the CD against the wall and watch £90 quid shatter into thousands of pieces across the floor.
But then im unstable.
So why am I saying that this is great news? When's the last time win2kpro, xppro, linux, or other OS's where an option on a home PC? Moreover, when's the last time an PC came with just an OS. Who the hell wants AOL, Jukebox, Compaq management station, Jacknutz McGee's antiviral sponge program, and all other kinds of useless crap that they never asked for in the first place on their PC? This is good news for the average Joe schmoo who can finally get a computer and put what they want on it without having to know too much about computers in general.
It's a big step back from M$ dictating what average folk do with their PC's, and I dig it.
--What, you ain't know about them country fried sessions?
Mircrosoft would not:
Put a clause in their EULA that states that consumers could get refunds for installed copies of Windows if the consumer disagreed with the license, only to turn around and violate that license when the consumer requested his refund.
Name their PDA operating system in such a way that an abbreviation forms a word for a reaction to pain.
Fake a demonstration of how badly Windows is impared when Internet Explorer is removed for an anti-trust trial, and get caught.
And Microsoft would absolutely, positivly, not spend a couple hundred million marketing their upcomming consol system only to find out that someone else owned the trademark.
Yes, Microsoft thinks of everything.
;)
Server != Desktop.
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Can you buy a support contract for FreeDOS?
:-)
That would be excellent.
if FreeDos works with Geoworks?
Which brings up the further question, can you still get geoworks, outside of abandonware copies?
It USED to give bill nightmares....
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
I remember reading something from Gateway's testimony in the recient court case, that Microsoft gets money for each PC that they sell, even if no MS OS is installed. read here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename= article&node=&contentId=A17256-2002Mar25¬Found= true
"Among these, he said, is a prohibition on manufacturers from selling computers without any operating system, or a license for one. Fama said this forces computer makers to pay Microsoft royalties for the license regardless of whether its Windows operating system was installed."
Obligatory Dell-bashing UserFriendly link...
There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
I wouldn't want Dell to do anything for Linux. TuxReports (www.tuxreports.com) has a story stating that the Dell return rate is 20 percent. Way too high.
Of course these are servers, not desktop machines. Nevertheless they take a bite out of the MS market.
Idempotent operation: Like MS software, wether you run it once or often, that doesn't make it any better.
I think that for corporates who intend their machines to use Linux or any other "free" OS this is good news - corporates like to buy Dell because they'll fix a machine wthout any problems. Hardware support is what corporate customers want and will pay for.
> That's what the antitrust suit should have been all about...
If it's any comfort, it's been done. Digital Research (and now Caldera) have successfully sued the heck out of Microsoft for predatory licensing practices which they used to get DR-DOS out of the way. It's not much (MS settled, so they never went to court) but at least if they try it again there's precedent that a judge can use to pummel them.
Virg
Thank you Dell. Let's roll!
"Microsoft's new licensing terms stipulate they can't sell PC's without an OS...."That sounds like bull to me.
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
Who appointed Microsoft as the regulatory agency for the computer industry anyway?)
Microsoft did, of course. And believe me, it for your own good.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
I wonder if they are going to advertise the fact that Dells come with DOS now. "Dude, you're gonna run DOS!" :)
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Does anyone else remember those old "Don't mess with Texas" bumper stickers from the 1980s? I think this is a great example of what that means...
Go Dell. Go DELL. GO DELL. YEA BABY. Stick it to em OH YEA. $*)
"N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said."
cough*bullshit*cough.
If you're concerned about 3rd world slavery in your diamond purchase, then check out Polar Bear Diamonds.
Made in Canada, eh...
Dear World,
It's nice see a large PC company like Dell is saying a big "%#$@ you" to Microsoft by using their own clause against.
Something simple like FreeDOS is the better choice, because although Linux can be "free", it wouldn't be if offered by Dell. Supporting it could cost a lot.
Later,
-Slashdot Junky
.
Landfill Mining Co.
Managing the (Un)natural Resources of Tomorrow
So why not make the token OS a live-CD version of that Linux distro - the one Dell wants to sell? The live-CD version wouldn't deter enterprise-class customers from buying, since it wouldn't meet their requirements, but it would provide enough real utility to effectively demonstrate the look and feel, and a mere taste of the performance, of an actual installed version.
Shipping with a token non-HD-installed OS is clever. Shipping with a token non-HD-installed OS which also effectively advertises another product you can actually sell would be cleverer.
I think the reason why Dell is offering machines without Windows installed is the fact Dell has announced an alliance with Red Hat Software to provide Red Hat Linux on both corporate PC's and servers on Tuesday.
That way, Dell offers a low-cost alternative to Windows to satisfy increasingly penny-pinching large-volume customers, and Dell chose the Linux distribution that is #1 in the business environment, Red Hat (which has pretty much become the de facto standard for Linux distributions).
Ha! Of all the systems they could have shipped, especially to include Linux and the *BSDs they picked FreeDOS. That's just funny. Okay, the dumb little Dell kid just got a slight bit more tolerable in my mind.
if the computers are the same cost - where's the extra money going?
Into Dell's pocket of course.
Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. Hardware margins are already thin. Pocketing both the Windows Tax and the cost of not supporting Windows on this box is very attractive to the hardware maker. Thus they will fight very hard to offer this option to their customer.
It will give Dell competitive advantage. Thus Dell's competitors now will fight very hard to have this option.
Once everyone is doing it, and it is accepted practice, then someone will be first to offer Windows-less boxes for less money. Then that competitive trend will have an effect on everyone else.
Isn't competition on commodity items wonderful? Too bad we don't have any when it comes to software.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
THIS IS NOT NEWSWORTHY! IF I HAD A CHOICE BETWEN GETTING A PC WITH WINDOWS AND ONE WITHOUT *** FOR THE SAME PRICE*** HELL I'LL GET THE ONE WITH WINDOWS! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? IT'S LIKE SAYING.. YEAH I CAN SELL YOU A CAR WITH WHEELS OR JUST DOUGHNUTS FOR THE SAME PRICE... GEEEZ!
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sheesh, what a troll!
If you willingly bought the computer, knowing the cost, and knowing it came with Windows, you have no right to a refund.
Worst case, you don't get your refund, which you wouldn't have gotten anyway, but maybe you can get the point across. Best case, you get your point across and maybe get a few bucks for your trouble.
No. Worst case, you don't get your "refund" (OF COURSE) and you look like a jackass Linux zealot just trying to cause problems for no good reason. Best case, you don't cause a stir.
If I lived in Texas and bought a new car, I wouldn't expect them to give me a "refund" for the heating system I knowingly paid for. Don't be a dumbass!
Mark
Ok, first off I like the fact that a computer company is trying to have the freedom to move away from Microsoft. However, for all of you bitching about how Microsoft is bullying Dell... Well, all I can say is that it is their software, and they make the license agreements. Maybe if some other company would make an operating system with the user friendliness of Windows, then maybe Microsoft won't have as much leverage against companies like Dell and Gateway. But since no one has the balls to step up and make something new to rival Windows that even new computer users can figure out, and trust me, I know software engineers who still haven't figured out all the quirks in Linux, then just use what comes with the computer, format your hard drive and install what you want, or build your own computer. As far as the majority of people who buy computers from companies like Dell and Gateway, most of them wouldn't be able to figure out how the hell to use Linux anyway. The only situation where this really matters is in the corporate world. But then again, most companies use Microsoft, and those that don't either use a proprietary OS or can take the time to install Unix or Linux on as many machines as they need.
OK, I am confused. Are we supposed to love Dell or hate Dell this week?
DELL has been keeping an eye on FreeDos for a while now.
When I downloaded bios updates for my Dell laptop in januari, it was a complete boot disc using FreeDOS.
I wouldn't be surprised if they already figured this out a long time ago, and did extensive legal research:-)
Dell's policy has been to only support systems with the operating system the box shipped with. I would worry that they would not make it easy to replace the hard drive, should it take a dive.
Oh I see, so all of us "zealots should shut up and accept the fact that MS can do whater the fuck it wants to regardless of the laws it's breaking so we don't cause trouble? Personally, I feel a computer is ALMOST a necessity, and no I don't feel like I should have to pay for windows when I don't fucking want it. Before MS once again used their monopoly to crush competition I could have ordered a PC with no OS and been happy. Now I'm being forced to buy a PC with an OS I don't want and have no intention of using? Fuck that, if I'm going to be forced to pad MSs pockets then they're going to be forced to put up with me when I enter SUPER ASSHOLE MODE.....and NO-ONE can stand up to my SUPER ASSHOLE MODE. 10 to 1 if I ever decide to buy a PC and am forced to purchase windows I will return it AND get a refund. Why? Because I'm a Linux Zealot whose willing to fight for MY RIGHT no to be forced to buy shit I don't want, As opposed to a weasel who thinks that anyone who has some sort of ideal and won't help companies rape them is being a dumbass.
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article
Your not giving you money to MS, your giving it to Dell.
This thing of companies threating other companies sounds more like comecon, when USSR forced polish to produce potatoes, buy VCR from East Germany and trad Apples with Ungary but not Bulgary, or like feudal thing with Lord MS having the "ius primae noctis " on the hardware of his vassals.
"N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said"
No M$ tax, and the same price? Better bottom line.
All this uproar about whether or not Dell is taking the license fee....
.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
BUILD YOUR OWN GODDAMN BOX!
Jesus! - It's not rocket science.
News for Nerds. Stuff that
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
MS is in the middle of an antitrust trial the core of which is the accusation that MS strongarms OEMs with exclusive deals. Now wouldn't it be convinient for MS to demo the fact that an OEM could indeed *not have to* ship with MS OSs even with the existing licences with MS. Enter Dell and FreeDOS. Who is actually using FreeDOS (well i am but i don't think that's the norm.)? From a shippers perspective Linux/xBSD would have been a better choice because of the market share. If Dell truly wanted to provide alternative OSs for the benefit of consumers wouldn't they pick from the list of OSs that are higher up in market-share-ranked list? ie. since they ship the top ranked OS -- windows -- woulnd't they pick the second next? But then MS wouldn't like that too much now would it? Solution: ship FreeDOS with the machines -- that way people are at least still in the DOS mindset. Then MS goes back to court saying -- "Look, Look, the OEMs can and are shipping machines with other OSs. We didn't strongarm them into exclusivity!! The OEMs *can* choose other OSs and that's not restricted by our *existing* license. The only reason they haven't taken advantage of that is because they didn't want to. Not because we threatened them in any way!"
So me thinks this idea hatched somewhere in the northwest US. NOT at Dell. Do you really think that if Dell wanted to piss off MS by shipping an alternative OS they would ship FreeDOS as opposed to something with more demand -- linux? Unless of course MS wanted Dell to *ship* (or at least look like they offer) another OS. That OS would have to be close to MSs own. But very very outdated version of MSs own.
The fact that they found a way to get around the M$ EULA loophole and distribute PC's with an OS (FreeDOS) shows they are listening and thinking about the users who want a choice.
And of course there are exceptions to every gernerality, but I bet most individuals who want to buy a computer to put linux on and are smart enough to fix their own problems will just buy a computer from some local shop or build it themselves. Dell's not where I go to get a new box. But they are a big company, and its nice to see some companies aren't completely in bed with MS.
The real win here is that Dell is trying to stand up to MS a bit.
Now as much as I hate to admit it, MS has a legitimate argument for requesting that no computers ship without an OS. They may fear that it encourages pirating of their OS. I'm sure they were pleaed as punch that it might inhibit the proliferation of linux, which is why I'm thrilled to see Dell actually find a solution without caving to MS pressure.
From the article:
"N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said."
So... essentially Dell gets to pocket the difference, that being their cost for a Windows license. Sounds like a great deal for Dell, if you ask me.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Microsoft lawyers, BG and marketting/sales ppl must be pissed right now, what do you think they'll do?
Maybe not so much directly to DELL right now but, can they do anything against freeDOS? Do they hold any trademark on "DOS" ? With all these lawsuits going on , you should be careful what you name your kids!
[alk]
Yes, you are, but I forgive you.
Now, on to the real point.
If you willingly bought the computer, knowing the cost, and knowing it came with Windows, you have no right to a refund.
YES, I do, if I do not agree to the terms of the EULA.
If they are charging you the SAME price whether or not you get Windows or not, then they are over charging you if you don't get Windows on your new PC. Part of the price you pay is the infamous "Windows Tax". Forget Linux for a moment. What if your Win2k machine at home fries - zip, poof, gone. You have the original Win2k discs that you bought. Should you buy a new PC and have to pay AGAIN for the OS? No. You should be able to get your refund REGARDLESS of what OS you want to install on your PC.
If they charge the same price with or without Windows, they are overcharging you. And it is more about the principle of it all than the money. But you know what? I could use the extra $100 or whatever they charge for Windows.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
And in other news, Ashcroft today announced that the blindfold would be removed from the eyes of the statue of justice. It would be replaced with a blindfold constructed from thousand-dollar bills. MS-Nuclear-Bio-Chemical News heartily commends this initiative, and feels the policies it symbolizes it will bring a sense of fairness and equitability back into our justice system after a long absence.
They are getting pushed around by Microsoft and think they are being sneaky. In reality they should be able to sell their computers anyway they want to. I don't see how this story is exciting in any way. Its sad. How can anybody say good for Dell.
First sell another OS at the same price, and even pay Microsoft for it. If MS's layers don't have any point against it, then try to lower the price on the other OS offer and pay less to Microsoft.
Then if MS ask to comply the contract, Dell could use as argument that MS does not want the hardware sold with an OS only against software piracy, but just for plain and known greedy and monopolistic reasons.
Actually it's probably what microsoft had in mind. The whole (probably stupid) idea is make there to be no economic advantage to buy a machine without an os, and then pirate a windows one. Also note that even if you have corperate licensing, you still can't put windows on a naked pc, see this FAQ.
Last year, I built my own computer. Why? Because I already had purchased a license for Windows 2000 Professional and I wanted to use it with the new CPU. Buying from Dell (for example) would have forced me to buy a second copy of Windows that I simply did not need.
And before you ask, I took Windows off the old computer before installing it on the new one, so it never ran on more than one CPU at any particular time. (The old CPU runs NetBSD now.)
What about AbiWord...
you know, gnome and KDE use windows....
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Listen. To me anyway it seems that neither Dell nor M$ with its screwed license give a shit about non M$ licenses with this move. M$ has already basically won with their uncompetitive licenses back in the 90s. The real deal here is about money. Dell wants to be able to sell a cheaper computer. Savvy (or dishonest or what have you) buyers will save $100 and install a pirated version of an M$ OS. That will happen far more than people leaving FreeDos or installing linux on them will. The move has zilch to do with M$ muscling out other OSes. They already did that. It is all about Dell wanting to sell more PCs cheaper and M$ being paranoid (probably rightfully so this time) about have more of their crap pirated. That's the real deal here.
and if their consumers aren't going to use Windows, they're more likely to buy a computer without it
Unfortunately, while most people in
Windows has been and always be popular with normal consumers for its seemingly simple interface, ability to run easy and useful applications, and its tendency to cater to the computer illiterate (Most blatantly in XP). If not just for familiarity. Not everyone has the time, patience, or ability to start using Linux nor do they have the desire to use Macintosh.
Although it's a nice thought, unless MacOS makes a giant drive into the average household computer industry, MS won't be facing any boycots in the near future.
First, it's lose, not loose. I hate to be a spelling Nazi, but this error is so common I have to mention it. I admit that the double-'o' sound with a single 'o' is confusing, but that's just the way English is. :)
Second, the "minor difference in cost" isn't minor at all... I bopped over to Dell, to see the "freedos" option in action. Apparently they haven't changed the web page yet. More interestingly, I discovered that, for example, in a PowerEdge 1650 rack server the cost of adding a 5-client license of Win2k server increased the cost of the machine by 45%. I don't care how little anyone thinks businesses care about the cost of hardware -- only a moron pays an additional 45% for something they're just going to throw away, and any manager who approves such a purchase was ignorant of what they were actually approving.
I can definitely see why Dell would want to maintain a no-OS option.
The enemies of Democracy are
Dell's going to need something to help differentiate themselves, outside of their price.
They've been working with customers to bring both VMware and Virtuozzo in on customer calls, which are server partitioning technologies - look for more of that in the future.
it happened to apple, it happened to be, microsoft's still going to shoot them down and no one can do anything about it
And I can still hear his laughter
And I can still hear his song
The man's too big
The man's too strong
All right! I install FreeBSD on all my computers and it's annoying to have to pay for Windows when I just install over it.
"It's a very creative interpretation of Microsoft's licensing terms, and one I imagine Microsoft didn't have in mind" Oh, sure, of course they didn't think of it, DELL fooled Microsoft and now Microsoft is crying like a baby. What a joke
You're right, of course. For the corporate customer, however, it's perfect. You get Dell support and warranty on parts, replacements, etc.
... (Dude, You're getting a Dell, with Linux)
As far as the individual, it's less about what PC I would get for me, but what PC I would get for friends that don't 'trust' a no-name customized box but would trust a Dell
"Piter, too, is dead."
I recently went through this issue with Dell when I bought a laptop from them about a month ago. Dell would not sell me a laptop with Linux unless I bought 10 or more. They would also not sell me a laptop with out an OS. However this is not a Microsoft licensing thing. In fact it is a requirement of the Interational Standards Organization. Dell does not actually build their machines but has a group of companies contraced to do it. As part of this, Dell requires their contactors to be certified under an ISO Manufacturing Standard (I dont know the number). This Manufacturing Standard states that Dell may not sell a computer without an OS. The guy explained to me that this is a requirement as they must quality inspect each machine with an installed OS and then send that machine out in its current state. I hate MicroBorg as much as the next guy, but this time they are in the clear.
Actually about a year (or two)ago Microsoft had a little meeting with Dell, and afterwards Dell liquidated their Linux division (and the options to purchase RedHat preinstalled on Dells dissapeared from their web order forms...) I suspect that this may have something to do with the choice of FreeDOS.
/supposed/ to be frowned upon to make one-sided contracts?
On another train of thought, isnt this sort of "licensing contract" generally referred to as "restraint of trade" ? (IANAL...)
Isnt it
It is easy enough to predict that:
- Microsoft will produce a "OfficeWorks" package for the Xbox that permits people to use it as a computer, drastically undercutting the PC market
- Microsoft will 'adhere' to the 'protections' it 'agreed' to in the 'settlement' and muscle out Freedos (since it sells so little as to not be covered in the competitive protection stipulations)
-and/or- (last but not least)
- Microsoft will add DRM or Security or some other BS as a BIOS module which has to be 'licensed' by the OEMs and motherboard makers.. then 'bundle' the module with the OS at a cost of $1 (or less) more than the module alone costs (A la Xbox 'security' to lock out other OS's)... IIRC this sort of 'bundling' is legal. (else they simple make XP+ 'work better with' proper BIOS extensions, or not work at all without them. I mean Office won't work very well at all without a MS OS so why shouldnt an MS OS work without a MS BIOS?)
Anything like this could be a potential mechanism used to 'legally' spank non-compliant PC manufacturers into bankruptcy. IIRC Netscape and Novell are pretty much gone from the top of the heap. Now that MS is 'not a monopoly' it can feel free to use strongarm tactics to become a monopoly. These sorts of decisions are brought to you by the Do(I)J (a wholly owned subsidiary of MS?)
Let us hope that no one in the Federal Government has installed 2000 SP3 or XP SP1, with the requisite license agreements, else their 'criticism' of Microsoft might be a reason to 'audit' their licenses remotely and invoke the UITCA and remotely disable 'non-compliant' machines pending 'resolution' of the 'dispute' (with the requisite fines paid to the software manufacturer and the public apologies (ie dropping of all charges?))
Call me paranoid, but it does seem that Microsoft has been greasing us all for a while.
The point a lot of you all are missing here is that this isn't really about a throw away OS for those who will install Linux. The true impact here on MS is that now companies who use imaging tools such as Norton Ghost and the like, will no longer have to pay for Windows twice for every single PC. You see, MS license agreements state that the original OEM copy that comes with the Dell is only licensed for that machine. If you are going to wipe it and reimage it with Windows, which is what probably the vast majority of companies do, then you have to pay for another Windows license. The OEM license that came with the PC doesn't count. Screwed up I know, but thats truely the way it is. From now on, companies that order from Dell won't have to buy Windows twice. They order with free dos and reimage with Windows and pay for that Windows license only. They no longer have to eat the cost of the OEM license that they never use. (Of course my whole point here is predicated on the assumption that Dell will drop the price of a PC with free dos to the price of an equivalent PC minus the cost of an OEM Windows license)
But, the significant fact remains that Dell gave us a rebate for returning an unused OS at a time when many vendors refused to do this. I made a point of letting our Dell sales rep know that this reflected well on Dell in my mind.
Even if Dell charges the same with or without a Microsoft license, you might be better off without it -- consider that the Microsoft license might, in theory, have you agree to let them hack your computer even though you removed or never used their software. Getting the PC naked removes this possibility (IANAL so I can't comment on the legality of such a license, but I'd bet Microsoft would try it even if it wasn't enforcable at law.)
You could've hired me.
And computer *and* a bag of Freetos? gggggghhhhhaaa.....
If their own EULA didn't say that I was entitled to a refund for not using the software, then I wouldn't feel that it was owed to me. But since it does, I do. Rightfully so, if my new car came with a EULA that said I had the chance to turn in my car's heating system for a refund should I decide to never use it, then I would fully expect a check from Nissan when I turn in my heating system. What's the problem with that?
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
As a US Citizen, I consider myself to be (at the very least) a part owner of the Justice Department. If they did buy it out, the better send me a check, or I'm gonna have to call the... uhhh... oh. Hmmm.
:)
Maybe I'll have to call the NRA instead.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
Well okay so maybe the tail is 100 times the size of the dog, but it's still bizarre to read things like this:
I think it's safe to say that the concept of a "software license" is completely out of hand when a software license can dictate another company's product line.
Another strangely funny quote:
What a crazy idea! Who are these "Dell" people? They should sell customers what DELL wants! And lobby for laws that disallow everything else! That's the New Capitalism! Get with the program!
Hmm then again I guess you could parse that sentence so that "they" could refer to Microsoft..
Very clueful explanation of contracts.
Mmmm.. Donuts
Any person can by a Gateway® 910C Server for $499 with no OS.
The funny thing is if you choose an OS (Win NT 5 User) the OS costs much more then the Machine. Go figure?
with any OS, also. Check it out here. Of course, you could also get Lindows, Mandrake and windoze PCs.
I don't understand it. How can a company say that you must sell their software. If I am running an OEM, why should I jump through hoops have to find a 'loophole'? I am just going to sell my hardware, and that's it.
So why did Dell have to find a loophole? Did they sign something with MSFT at some point agreeing to only sell MSFT products? Or if you buy one MSFT product as an OEM can you only buy MSFT products? It doesn't make sense.
Think how absurd it would be if nVidia said to all OEMs that have nVidia cards, that they could only sell nVidia? Absurd, just absurb.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
The point is not what you knew it came with; the point is whether or not the EULA gives you the right to get a refund for part of your purchase if you don't want it. For a while EULAs allowed this, and so there was nothing unethical or jackass-like about asking for it. Now that the EULA doesn't entitle you to a refund, it would be stupid to ask for one, I agree.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Microsoft got fucked in the ass by Dell. Bless Dell for havin the balls to fuck M$ in the poop shute. This isn't a troll, however it is a departure from my usual postings ;-)
If you purchased a Windows-less PC, you got a copy of IBM PCDOS 7. I had a giant stack of those at one point. We then Ghosted our site licensed copies of Windows onto the machines. Didn't have to pay twice for Windows.
m.kelley
life is like a freeway, if you don't look you could miss it.
Dell wouldn't sell me FreeDOS unless I bought a PC also! Thus I have to pay for a PC just to get FreeDOS from them. Those Bastards!
Table-ized A.I.
> So... essentially Dell gets to pocket the difference, that being their cost for a Windows license. Sounds like a great deal for Dell, if you ask me.
It's a great deal for Dell initally, and eventually for the other OEMs once they start doing the same thing (which they can do, under the new, uniform Microsoft OEM terms) and realizing the same increased revenues w/o OS support costs.
All to often, people wish aweful things upon others, and I think that you have summed it up very well.
For the rest of you, what is a geeks overall goal anyway, World domaination. (right?) Bill Gates (Geek) got it.
Many of the /.'ers hate him for the fact that M$ is the standard, and *NIX is not. I spend my day in contact with the lowest skilled people working on computers, and Knowing what I know about MS OS's compaired to *NIX ( mainly, Slackware, my distro. next to Windows 2k.) IT IS a nessasary evil, and all the M$ haters need to grow up and realize that not everyone is as smart as we are, nor are their careers centered around using additional features provided by a more configurable OS.
Finally, The M$ Tax, might be steep, but try to imagine the cost of having an enterprize worth of PC's, that only a few employee's truly know how to operate. here is a good example. My situtation:
3000 (users) 10% computer literate = 2700 stupid EU's.
2700 * 800 ( salery per week - general average)= $2,160,000 in one week on employees saleries.)
Cost of licencing for those users with M$ (300(OS) + 500 (office). $2,160,000
2 hours a day in productivy losses because of inablity to opperate the basic features of the computer - (10 (hours per week) * 20 (hourly rate) * 2700) $540,000.
How many weeks till it pays for itself? Exactly 4 (20 days). How long will this continue? indefinatly.. A company this large, is has a signifant amount of new hires, and turnover. Some employees will never get it. My numbers might be off a good bit, although - it does provide some form of guidlines.
So let's sit back and realize that if it wern't for Bill, and his Monolopy (Yes, There are SERVERAL of their pratices I don't agree with) and realize that this is a nessasary evil, and to keep pushing it off is only making you an outsider. Maybe a thanks in in order for Bill's Vision, and desire to make computer more attainable and usable for the average user. With out the ease of the MAC, and for the lower cost IBM clone and point and click Windows, Most IT professionals would be driving the 87 Civic, not the BMW.
I apprishate his vision, and what he has done. I also enjoy my BMW, and my ability to sit at a computer (M$, or *nix) and truly enjoy making things work, making programs that "do stuff with things" and just being a geek, as well as the ability to meet others that have my interest.
As a member of Earth, we need more people like the guy above that said that he would like to see Bill sit back and just enjoy what he has gotton, and stop pressing matters.
Does anyone see the irony in this? DOS, as a tool to defeat the installation of Windows on a machine. FreeDOS no less...
Let's get back to our rootz.
If Dell were to interpret the term 'OS' the same way MS does, they could just ship machines with the screens painted blue. AC line cord optional.
I guess you didn't read the part of the article that described that Dell will charge the same price for its Windows-less PC as it will for machines with Windows pre-installed.
No doubt Dell has special handling and warehousing needs for the Windows-less PC, and yadda yadda. But in fact Dell is simply pocketing the Redmond tax.
If Dell really wanted to do the right thing, they'd remit some or all of the Redmond tax to people who buy Windows-less PCs. That way, consumers could compare prices and decide just how much Windows really is worth to them.
[this
I know a lot of people see this as a way to avoid the MS tax, but there are other areas that need to be explored concerning the tax by Microsoft.
For instance, if you build your own system, you will buy several pieces hardware and most specifically a sound card and a video card. These two pieces of hardware generally will go through the Windows Hardware Quality Labs certification or the newer Digital Signature certification. These two certifications cost money for Microsoft to perform and that cost gets passed on the consumer.
If you want to avoid the MS tax totally, then you have to buy hardware that isn't designed for DirectX, if not you will be giving money to MS.
> Probably to the point that they say "Sell only PCs with Windows on them."
;)
That won't be a problem now that it becomes popular to cut windows into your PC case
He saw some dirty arabs and fired. Too bad it was just some friendly kurds, BBC reporters and his fellow cowboys.
If this happens, I'll be singing a different tune about Dell. Now if only they can get rid of steve.....
Now, what about laptops? Most people who don't want to purchase windows for their desktop machines can just build their own on the cheap. However if you want a laptop, that is not the case. If Dell were to offer FreeDOS or something as an option for laptops, then this would be Big News(tm)
If bad puns were like deli meat, this would be the wurst
So, why FreeDOS? Why not some form of Linux?
The answer, I think, is there is no matter what flavor of Linux they put on the machine, the number of people who actually want that flavor is not going to be significant enough to make it worthwhile.
You may say that x percentage of PCs run Linux, but remember that x is divided up amongst all the myriad flavors Linux comes in. I know if I had Red Hat on a new laptop, I'd reformat it and put Gentoo on it. FreeDOS is a much simpler option.
Of course, there is also the support angle. Linux support is not cheap, partially due to the large number of flavors that all do things differently. "Techs" that can parrot "ummm reinstall, reboot your computer, and try again" for Windows problems are a dime a dozen.
Their franchise contract was apparently written to say "When you buy Pepsi products, you must buy them from OurOwnOverpricedDistributors.". It didn't say "you can't sell Coke products."
BWAAA HAAA. Think Billy Boy is gonna get his retainer back?
There just seems something so wrong with the phrase, "Dude, you're gettin' Linux!" Which means, of course, that the people in marketing will think it's a fantastic idea.
In Soviet Russia, Beowulf cluster imagines you!
May be a bit of a reach, but it would be great if DELL offers drivers compatible with the system hardware with setup utilities. For myself, ethernet over TCP/IP has always been the most difficult part of DOS to set-up.
This is a great way for FreeDOS to get quick (free) exposure.
yup yup
The excuse that M$ gives for the reason for the "NoOS" option in its licencing agreements with companies like Dell, is evidence that they admit that they are a monopoly. Basically they are claiming that there is NO reason to install any other OS other than a M$ OS.
If Dell (or any other Box maker) can show how many units were sold with or without M$ OS' installed should be ALL that M$ needs as proof of licensing. I am 100% sure that Dell can show exactly how many units of what were sold, including which OS was installed OR packaged as part of the Deal, including the NoOS option.
Excuses are often the best evidence of knowledge of wrong doing (ie GUILT).
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Next thing you know they won't include doors eithier.
Yes I did read the article.
Break on through to the other side.
especially since they put in the crappiest power supply you could ever find. (No, crappy isn't 300 watts, crappy is 230 watts!)
How can Microsoft say that they can't sell a PC without an operating system? Last time I checked, if you don't have a Microsoft product on your computer, then they don't have a say in what you do with it. That would be like saying if you own a computer, then Microsoft could say that you aren't allowed to install Linux. How does that work???
If it's necessary, then it would happen even without Microsoft's despicable business tactics. If it requires those tactics, then perhaps it isn't so necessary after all.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Well, if you live in Europe, I think you could make the biggest impact in this way :
- order a machine from direct sales
- when it arrives, say you do not accept the eula for windows and demand a refund
- If they refuse you the refund, you can ship the whole machine back at no charge (free shipping) within I think 10 days without even giving a reason. This is your right according to an EU-directive (in german I think it is the "Fernabsatzgesetz").
They may have a right to deny you a refund for windows alone, but you have right to demand a full refund for the full machine.
Its as easy as that, all it'll cost you is a phone call.
"Dell users! Send us your FreeDOS CD and get the latest Red Hat distribution for free!"
Either that, or just punch up a whole bunch of PC's and have the delivery guy ask, "Say, you want a bonus pack for free?" So long as it's not part of the terms of sale, it could be purely as a promotion.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Please note above correction.
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
If I got a message like that from any vendor, I'd cancel the order, and tell them that I'm a CUSTOMER, not a SUSPECT, and that if they don't know how to treat a customer, then they shouldn't have any.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If Dell wishes to support this, then they will need to have people trained in various distros, much like with Windows now. Even better, perhaps this would be a great way for companies like RedHat to make money and improve the interface, method and support options for Linux outside of said snotty 13 yo (mentally usually, I have met some very intelligent and helpful 13 yo's)
Fuck her in the ass!!!
(Note to the humorless: Yes, he did sing this. Look up the Jim Morrison - Jimi Hendrix sessions.)
The Devil is in the details. Yeah, they'll sell
you a system without windoze, but the price still
includes the cost of windows.
You must have missed the part where they still
charge you for the windoze that doesn't come with
the machine. I'll buy my next PC from someone
whose price doesn't include software I don't want.
Why wouldn't Dell ship with Red Hat in the box instead of FreeDOS? You'd think they would leverage their existing relationships.
I haven't seen anybody refer to this in any posts yet, but I seem to remember that Microsoft requiring hardware OEMs to include Windows on all PCs they sell in order to get their volume discount was one of the points in the original anti-trust case against MS (which MS lost). So my guess is they modified their OEM license to change "Windows" to "OS" in the hopes that the OEMs would still ship Windows and pay them their cut. Obviously Dell is smarter than that, although it's a shame that they don't pass that savings along as I saw one post claim, but that hasn't been my prior experience with Dell, I was able to get rid of software options and save some money. I seriously doubt MS will try to do anything about this since 1) it might be illegal for them to do it if I remember correctly and 2) it would be bad PR.
The "Dell PowerEdge Web Server Version 3.0 Powered By Red hat Linux" which ships with some of Dell's PowerEdge Servers does not come with either the source code or even a written offer to supply the source code. In addition, despite clearly violating the terms of the GPL and LGPL, Dell continues to make use of Red hat's trademark name and logo on it as if Red hat is endorsing this violation of the GPL/LGPL. If Red hat can't even protect it's name in association with GPL violations on the part of Dell, what chance does the FreeDOS developers have when Dell decides to ship FreeDOS without source code or written notice. Is having yet another series of violations of the GPL/LGPL by Dell really a good thing??
if everyone in the world had flowers instead of guns..there would be no more wars!! it would all just be a big 'smellin'
QED
BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
But if the cost is the same, why would you ever buy the machine without the Windows license. We would certainly opt for the Windows machine, even if we weren't buying it to run Windows, simply because it would allow us to redeploy the machine as a Windows box at a later date at no cost.
That's exactly my point. They cost the same, except instead of microsoft getting your money, Dell gets your money, and you're stuck with FreeDOS instead of XP or W2K.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
I have Arachne on a bunch of DOS machines, and it surfs the web just fine with a graphical browser, sends and receives Email, and has a lot of other features. I often partition machines when I set them up to provide a small 30 mb DOS partition, and run Arachne 1.70 there. Other partitions are Windows 98, and perhaps Redhat 7.1 or Mandrake 8. I can get booted up into Arachne very quickly, and use it to nuke a bunch of spam ;-). I have also run Caldera Opendos with Arachne, and find that it gives me more conventional memory than MSDOS to run Arachne. I have not tried OpenDOS, but I am hanging out by the dumpster when someone throws away their DELL box to see if I can get a copy.
Rapidweather's Linux Screenshots.
when dell starts selling PC's with AMD chips inside, then i'll care.
-gk
Microsoft offered a huge benefit (a vast cut in their own profits from the sale of the Windows OS that many users ask for) and received Dell's agreement to not sell computers without an OS. That isn't a tax, no matter how you parse it.
Hmmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
To quote the article: "N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said."
So, what's the big advantage then?
I can't afford a copy to find out, but isn't Windows XP tied to the motherboard, and other components so you can't change a whole lot without having to call Microsoft customer support and 'splaining what you did in order to get it to boot again?
I've taken a 500 mb hard drive with Redhat 6.1 on it, and installed it in a new computer (well, new to me) and have it boot right up, and be sending and receiving email from the new box in short order.
Rapidweather's Linux Screenshots.
Not bought, customers.
Keep in mind most lawyers become lawyers because they aren't any good at math. I had a judicial IT lead explain this to me. He'd love to ditch windows, but no way can he train all of the judges/clerks/paralegals/etc. on how to use an alternative. They use it at home they expect to use it at work. Sigh.
But what I am starting to get tired of is all the M$ bashing that goes on. /. with 'microsoft' in it, half the comments are just there #!/bin/bash'ing M$ and its getting boring.
Granted, their ability to write decent software and market it in a decent way is a bit non-existant, but it seems to me that every time i see an article on
I know that /.ers are intelligent people, lets try and act that way. Please?
Dell does seem to be tolerably flexible for large customers, from what I hear. (I've no reason to buy anything but clones for myself or my clients, so don't have the firsthand info you do.)
:(
Your thought about how the lic. might give M$ the EULA right (if not the legal right) to hack your PC even tho you've nuked their software... I have a suspicion you're all too correct, wrt how M$ would interpret and use it. It occurs to me to wonder just how much snooping they're already doing on large corporate customers.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Hmm.
Let's see. Anyone is going to argue that:
1. Most of the computers that Dell sell are desktop PCs and Notebooks?
2. Most of the corporate users will want to run Windows on their PCs?
No arguments? good. Now having said that, even if you blow away the preinstalled image and you install your own in-house image, you still need to purchase a license. Buying the license through the PC manufacturer or buying it directly from Microsoft is just the same.
Also, let me correct the original post -- this is aimed at small to medium buyers. Large buyers have enough pull to order a customized image that will come up exactly as they want it. Therefore these large buyers have less an incentive to muck with CDs and customize their own images.
Although I absolutely agree that precious few of the systems sold will actually wind up with FreeDOS installed on them, it pleases me to think that a few boxen will have it installed if for no other reason than people will be curious about it. That's good for mindshare. It will hopefully encourage a few to begin using it and/or participate in the project itself. That is A Good Thing.
When I look back at Linux's humble beginnings as a hacker's OS, the resemblence is striking. Linux wouldn't be where it is today without mindshare. FreeDOS may never gain the popularity that Linux now enjoys, but it's heartening to see that it is no longer going completely unnoticed.
trane
im making CDs of win32 binaries of free software that also runs in linux to spread to windows users. while they get most of the advatages we do over commercial software, it also means they can also leave microsoft easily as well.
i could use some help, see the todo list.
http://pixel.fairyden.net/embrace.html
> ...settlements don't create any precedent whatsoever.
Precedent of behavior, not precedent of ruling. It can be used to prove that they've admitted to doing this in the past, so the judge is less likely to be lenient in sentencing, if they're convicted of it again.
Virg