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The problem is that there are games where there are unified calls - nigh unanimous - and STILL the developers aren't f'ing paying attention.

One clear example: Lionhead Studios. One thing on almost every forum I've seen is a massive call to fix the "houses constantly breaking down" problem, either by implementing a global or per-city "repair all houses" function. Yet, Lionhead are content to just ignore this.

Of course, Lionhead are probably not the best example, since they obviously didn't playtest a number of things in their game anyways. I regularly "fell through" the world geometry in a couple of zones, and spellcasting was basically a joke: the only useful spells/combos in the game are Fireball, Fireball/Forcepush, and Vortex/IceStorm.

Of course, I was in a small beta playtest for an MMO back in the day. I wrote up entire, multiple-page analyses of why certain classes were getting ignored by the player base - essentially, boiling it down to the fact that (a) certain abilities in the games just did not work as advertised (or in some cases, at all) and (b) certain abilities were just mind-bogglingly boring. Did the developers pay any attention? Not as near as I could tell. The fix for the mind-bogglingly boring ones would have been relatively easy, a palette swap and trading of one or two attacks for something with a tad more flavor (it was a "pet class" that was supposed to summon elemental pets... yeah right, all it did was summon little sand-colored turd golems). The fix for the broken stuff was to actually fix the bugs - but that didn't happen till 8 months after the game's release.

I could name the game or developer, but I'm betting a number of people can already guess who it was even from that small bit of info.

Actually, I think the game you're describing already exists.

Agreed.

However, looking at the development of art history... I imagine gaming will do something similar as we become bored of perfectly realistic games, even if they are masterpieces of both art and game design.

Anybody else with a more extensive art background have any other comments on this?

Interesting thought, but not one that persuades me. Many games have already made a virtue of deliberately non-photo-realistic visuals. Molyneux' games, for example, have cartoonish visuals not because he doesn't have the graphic sophistication to go for near photo-real but because he chooses not to.

I think the visual aesthetic has a lot to do with the entire experience the director is trying to impart. I really love The Witcher (my review here) for its immersiveness, and part of that immersiveness is the beautiful visuals which are clearly aiming towards (although not, at least on my hardware, quite achieving it). You really can, in The Witcher, just stop and watch the moon rise and be blown away by the beauty of the scene.

Photorealism also suits stories which build on the 'film noir' genre, as it's clear that Heavy Rain does - but black-and-white might work better (it's noticeable that the palette in those Heavy Rain screenshots is pretty subdued).

However, in the game I'm trying to work on I want to end up with a 'charcoal and wash' visual - very little colour and not a lot of detail. I don't - yet - know how to do this - near photo real would be a lot easier and may be what I eventually end up with. But the reason for that choice is partly to make the game look distinctive, but it's also to comment on the culture of the people I'm trying to tell a story about.

It's probably worth stating that this was an interview by one of the members of the Lionhead community forums (fel64), who happens to run the fansite, Loinhead. Peter and Dene also did interviews for one of the 'The Movies' based podcast/radio shows (rjb2112/Roger). Details about them both here. The latter (TMOA interview) was probably a little more candid, in that the interview wasn't really as Fable-focused as the Loinhead one was.

Since it was a demo, your sense of being blown away had probably more to do with Doug Church's programming genius than anything else. I'm not saying it wasn't a great game, it was, but the "wow" factor you describe can't really be soley attributed to Mr. Spector.

Don't get me wrong. The joy of all those games is that the programming was cutting edge, the art is amazing, the music is inspiring, the story is well written and compelling, the environments are immersive.

It takes many skilled people to put together a game like that, and they all deserve credit.

But you throw a bunch of skilled people like that in a room and cook for 18 months and most of the time you'll end up with a train wreck instead of a masterpiece. Warren seems to be able to pull out the masterpiece more often than not.

This isn't really a development tool, but for machinima enthusiasts (that term still irks me), there's Lionhead's The Movies. It starts out as a Rollescoaster Tycoon-esque resource management game and eventually lets you make your own films. Some of these are even shared online.

I've never used it, so I don't know how easy or difficult it is.

Dungeon Keeper. Damn. I still play that.
But i'm surprised no one has mentioned "The Movies"; as is expected it is not as cool as he said it would be. But it is still pretty darn cool, and classing it as a tycoon-type game is wrong.
Besides, it is FUN making movies using the game. example at: http://movies.lionhead.com/studio/Changestorm

However, i don't think this is the same scenario, because video game sales (in revenue) have been decreasing, with only a few companies showing growth. EA is one such company . This site Suggests sales are UP overall as an industry. Now then, are these companies showing growth because they are harder to pirate? Doubtful, as it doesn't seem to matter to piracy inclined people how difficult a game is to pirate, they will do it. So we must look at the content of the games, the originality, stability, re-play aspects, etc.

A game can be spectacular, like Fable but if it has 0 re-play value, don't expect a whole lot. On the other hand, games like TES: Arena (The very fist game in The Elder Scroll Series), TES: Daggerfall, TES: Morrowind, and TES: Oblivion (though I've yet to play Oblivion, can't as of yet afford it), will NEVER go out of style, because they have enormous re-play value. Many of these games you can go through twice, and with the exception of a few main plot-line quests (if you even decide to do those), it will be a totally different game. Games like THAT, are what's missing. Everything is a clearcut path to victory. A clear beginning, and a clear end. This is good for some people, who aren't interested so much in a story, or good gameplay, as they are in just killing stuff to unwind from a long day. But to the gamers, a gamer must have substance. there must be something to it. FPS games are a dime a dozen, RTS games have almost become that, but MMO, and RPG games are doing so well because they can be played radically differently. Clearcut easy games have their place no doubt. But if the gaming industry really wants to reclaim it's 1999-2000 throne of $$$$$, it's going to have to do something about it's content.

And on a side note, if piracy is really killing the PC Gaming industry this badly, why hasn't MS gone under yet from piracy of Windows, Office, their PC Games, and the myriad of other software that they sell, all of which ends up being pirated. MS Seems to be doing OK, in spite of the piracy they are faced with. And how many of you posting here are using XP Corporate, or a copy with wpa killed? I'd wager it's a pretty fair amount. *Shrug* It's just common. It's a reality of business in software. I haven't paid for a copy of Windows in several years, and yet every copy that I do run is totally legit. MS doesn't seem to be hurting for it (even with massive fines from various sources). So one has to wonder, is the PC Gaming industry REALLY in trouble because of piracy? Or are they in trouble for something else, and they're choosing to blame piracy as a scapebgoat? It's better to be seen as a victim, than as lazy and unimaginative.

Reminds me of Fable where in you can have flirt with and have sex with different wemen.

If you are caught cheating your other 'girlfriends' have throw a fit.

How many game developers would make games that only run on a small fraction of PCs?

Lionhead Studios comes to mind. Black & White 2 which I just bought runs awfully slow on my I.M.O. above average computer system (Athlon XP 3000+, 1GB RAM and a Geforce 6800GT). I've also seen benchmarks of that title on high speced rigs (AMD 64FX57 and GF7800) and the game only ran so-so on those as well.

So apparently there are some studios which push titles out the door requiring HW-specs available only 12-18 months into the future for the larger audience. Don't ask me their reasoning though since I haven't got the slightest.

Have you actually seen any of the movies that are being released by players on the online site? I'd be tempted to reserve judgment until I'd either a) played the game or b) taken a good look at some of the creativity this game has unlocked in other people.

b) the sandbox mode still isn't sandbox because your actors and directors are still Simmish. They need TLC, need to be able to work together, need trailers to keep themselves occupied, etc.

With regards to point a) if you check the Lionhead boards you'll find some posts on how to bypass this if you don't want to play through the game. The sandbox actually unlocks 30 years ahead of where you've played in the game so you only really need to get up to 1970 :)

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...we might see an apology for such things soon. Then again, maybe not--they are flaunting it as of post time.

At least the monitor's hot--no wait, that was separate...

I recomend everyone that are thinking about this game to take a look at lion heads forum - what do you DON'T like about B&W2 (http://allboards.lionhead.com/showthread.php?t=97 765). There are rants there and peopel flameing Lion Head in ways i can only dream of doing. BTW the Like thread is about 1/4 of the don't like and if you remove all the OMG the grafiks are UBER the do not like thread dwarfs the like thread.

Yes, a Mac version is in the works (being ported by Feral Interactive). Of course, there is no stated release date on the press release, but what can you expect?

Yeah, but what about a game based off a movie that was produced by the game The Movies http://www.lionhead.com/themovies/

Or a movie based on a game based off a movie created with The Movies game.

My head hurts.

I think that RDFK would make a good port to the DS.

The developer of the program actually considered it, but couldn't get nintendo to give him an SDK since he wasn't with a major game firm.

Recently, however, valve has taken his game, and will be releasing it on steam so maybe he will get a chance if the game sells well.

*pokes*. I'm not trying to start a flamewar here. These are just my observations and how they relate to the parent's question.

Most console(Xbox/PS/etc) carry mostly instant-fun (almost arcade-like) games. Most of those games have a short *wow!* effect. You usually play those games for a couple or days or even hours before doing anything else. Of course there are some exceptions, but, it's what most people generally expect from a console; that you can sit down and just have fun for an hour or so, sometimes with your friends.

PC-games are more of the long-lasting kind of fun. The fun is spread out over a couple of weeks, sometimes even months. Cities need to grow, characters need to be leveled, progress needs to be made.

At least, that's how it used to be (think of all those old PC games you played for ages!).

Something has changed.. Gameplay has become less important, and Graphics and all those other 'goodies' such as real-time physics simulation have become more and more important, why? Who knows! It probably sells better in the first few months.
Also, more and more and more games are being developed in a "multi-platform" way; ie, they make the same game for PC/Xbox/PS2. So what? That's only good! More joy for everyone! Well, is it? Take a look at the game Deus Ex , that's one excellent game. Now, its successor, Deus Ex: Invisible War was a multi-platform game and it all went wrong. Why? Because while Deus-Ex was a typical long-term-fun PC-Game, the sequel was a typical instant-fun short-term game; that's what its design elements reflected. Now, this is an extreme case, but I believe that more and more games are becoming the 'instant-fun short-term' kind of games for various reasons; multi-platform, better sales, more focus on graphics.

It's a shame really, but there's still hope. I'm pretty sure that this is just the zeitgeist of gaming, and it probably acts a bit like a sinus-wave, y'know? In a couple of years there might be more long-term fun-games than the instant-fun ones, it'll reach the top and then it makes way for short-term instant-fun arcade-like games, once again.

One studio that holds my interests in particularly is Lionhead Studios . Black & White II seems like a typical PC-game, and hopefully its not as bug-riddled as its predecessor. Also, they also seem to try and change the definitions of gaming, or at least experiment in its boundaries, take a look at The Room (Scroll down to "Gameplay Moves Forward into the 21st Century" and click the Register button, register or fill in any dummy info and watch the video, skip through to the "The Room" part).

So there's hope, but right now, I'd say yes; old games are definatly more satisfying. But right now, you got to know where to look and what to look for. May I recommend Psychonauts? An excellent multi-platform adventure game for all ages?

*pokes*. I'm not trying to start a flamewar here. These are just my observations and how they relate to the parent's question.

Most console(Xbox/PS/etc) carry mostly instant-fun (almost arcade-like) games. Most of those games have a short *wow!* effect. You usually play those games for a couple or days or even hours before doing anything else. Of course there are some exceptions, but, it's what most people generally expect from a console; that you can sit down and just have fun for an hour or so, sometimes with your friends.

PC-games are more of the long-lasting kind of fun. The fun is spread out over a couple of weeks, sometimes even months. Cities need to grow, characters need to be leveled, progress needs to be made.

At least, that's how it used to be (think of all those old PC games you played for ages!).

Something has changed.. Gameplay has become less important, and Graphics and all those other 'goodies' such as real-time physics simulation have become more and more important, why? Who knows! It probably sells better in the first few months.
Also, more and more and more games are being developed in a "multi-platform" way; ie, they make the same game for PC/Xbox/PS2. So what? That's only good! More joy for everyone! Well, is it? Take a look at the game Deus Ex , that's one excellent game. Now, its successor, Deus Ex: Invisible War was a multi-platform game and it all went wrong. Why? Because while Deus-Ex was a typical long-term-fun PC-Game, the sequel was a typical instant-fun short-term game; that's what its design elements reflected. Now, this is an extreme case, but I believe that more and more games are becoming the 'instant-fun short-term' kind of games for various reasons; multi-platform, better sales, more focus on graphics.

It's a shame really, but there's still hope. I'm pretty sure that this is just the zeitgeist of gaming, and it probably acts a bit like a sinus-wave, y'know? In a couple of years there might be more long-term fun-games than the instant-fun ones, it'll reach the top and then it makes way for short-term instant-fun arcade-like games, once again.

One studio that holds my interests in particularly is Lionhead Studios . Black & White II seems like a typical PC-game, and hopefully its not as bug-riddled as its predecessor. Also, they also seem to try and change the definitions of gaming, or at least experiment in its boundaries, take a look at The Room (Scroll down to "Gameplay Moves Forward into the 21st Century" and click the Register button, register or fill in any dummy info and watch the video, skip through to the "The Room" part).

So there's hope, but right now, I'd say yes; old games are definatly more satisfying. But right now, you got to know where to look and what to look for. May I recommend Psychonauts? An excellent multi-platform adventure game for all ages?

here!

Ah yes. Originality. Just like this!

Or maybe this!

Or in a weird way, this!

Or Will Wright's this!

Or maybe even millions of these!

:P

I'll agree with Nintendo playing on the cuteness bit, but to be honest, games that are more or less exactly like this have been produced for years. It's certainly nice that at least ONE console gaming company puts a modicum of effort into reaching the other 50% of the world out there.

I spent a few minutes Googling, and here are some links showing the kinds of things I am thinking about:

• Wild Divine (which has been reviewed on Slashdot)
• Mindgames (From the website: Our focus on demonstration is designed to challenge organisations to not only think of how they might use our ideas in their products but also to imagine how their products can reach out and change the lives of everyone in a positive way. We believe that technology should be designed to facilitate us building a more constructive humanity.) They seem like a cool group, and like they're doing some really neat research. I'm not saying they are bad, I'm just saying that these things could easily be combined with new age philosophy.
• Tranquility This is pretty close to the game that I was thinking of, but I'm not sure if it's it. Similar note to the above item.

Please note that I'm not saying that "meditation is bad" or things like that -- I'm definately not saying that. Relaxation is a very good thing, however I've just seen a lot of this stuff combined with pantheistic theology as a way to "transcend to higher consciousness". I'm just calling it as I see it, and I'm just saying that there are video games with a lot of new-age theology underneath them out there.

Oh yeah, almost forgot about Rag Doll Kung Fu. *VERY* cool looking game, definately "religious", definately *not* "Christian". :) Not all games need to be Christian -- the grandparent was asking for non-Christian religious games, and I'm pointing him in that direction.

Anyone have any information about how his new Gamecube game Unity is progressing?

Haven't seen much new on either his site (aside from the initial announcement) or Lionheads about it for a while?

Sounds like an interesting (and typically Minteresque) project, seems like it is meant to be a cross between his music lightshow idea and a shoot-em-up.

In fact, Peter Molyneux actually has initiatives to keep the bedroom coder alive. Admittedly he's supporting Jeff Minter which is a pretty safe bet (check out the the "unity" mention on the lionhead site)

More of the same, that's what I say!

By the time this comes out (they say 2004, more like 2005)

Nope, it's due out next year. id Software are generally pretty good at predicting the year of release, unlike some companies.

I like google because it loads terribly quick which comes in handy if you use it once every hour and only spend 10 seconds on the page itself.
If, however, I were to visit a website once or twice a month/year and I don't need a lot of information in a very short time period (let's say for example lionhead studios though I prefered their previous lay-out) I don't mind looking at some nice flash, some fancy java applet or whatever it is with which they try and attract my attention.

So I reckon Flash and Java and whatever more you can think of (if it works of course) is ok as long as it doesn't bother me. Try to make an educated guess of how long your average visitor is going to spend on your website and then try to come up with a good mixture of beauty and usability

(please note, these views are not entirely mine though I must admit I lost the source of my information, also note that my only experience with web-design is Phicus so I'm not really an expert)

What they tend not to be focusing on is that part of it is blatant self advertising:

• The creator of the Worms series of games walked up to Team 17 at a trade fair, loaded up his admitedly amateurish but original effort on one of their Amigas and said "This is what I can do.
• If you read the Lionhead website, the guys who are the makers of Black and White, they talk quite a bit about how their team members got noticed. One of their coders entered a game design competition when he was a kid that Peter Molyneaux was judging with the prize being to work at Bulfrog. He was too young to enter but just wanted to meet Peter. As a result Peter followed his progression through university and when the time was right offered him a job. I believe their web designer was a QA tester who knew a little HTML and volunteered.
• Even in the movie industry, there was a thread months back about two kids who sent in their 3D showreel to Lucas Arts and ended up doing albeit minor roles on Episode 1.

Finally, a common cry from most of the 3D people who see a constant stream of showreels. "Don't send an animation of a spaceship - we've seen it all before. Show realistic moving light through a window or great character animation. Focus on one thing you can do brilliantly as most projects have a lot of specialists not one person filling every role. Most important, don't send in a group project - how are we supposed to know what you did and what's other people's work?"

http://www.bwgame.com/
http://www.lionhead.com/
http://www.planetblackandwhite.com/
Gamespot review (9.3/10)

Lionhead has a shockwave/flash/whatever page that is reasonably astounding. I knew you could do all the stuff that they do, but I never considered putting it together like that. The scrolling landscape is particularly neat.

The link:

www.lionhead.com

Go to the shocked version, of course.

Yeah, that site kinda blows, but you can get the information and screenshots of the company's site:

Go here.

Note, requires Shockwave. For the unshocked version,

Go here instead.

Yeah, that site kinda blows, but you can get the information and screenshots of the company's site:

Go here.

Note, requires Shockwave. For the unshocked version,

Go here instead.

It is indeed Molyneux's next game, and it looks pretty cool. Why not go to Lionhead and read about it?