PlayStations of the Cross

theodp writes "Is there a place amid the witches, warlocks and diabolical monsters for Christian video games? The NY Times reports companies like Brethren Entertainment ('Entertaining for Eternity'), Digital Praise ('Glorifying God Through Interactive Media'), and N'Lightning believe that there is a market in faith-based video games. If the idea of Christian first-person shooters seems unlikely, so too did the idea of Christian pop music, which accounted for 7% of the total pop-music market and sold 43+ million albums last year."

Comments

FWIW

[Otter]

N'Lightning is a terrific name. Or maybe I just spend so much time reading about Mandriva, Linspire and Hairy Warthog that anything half-sane sounds good.

"PlayStations of the Cross" is also pretty clever -- a bit too clever for a Slashdot submitter. Let's see, did he just copy the NYT title...yup.

Re:FWIW

[Naikrovek]

yes, but did he copy the funniest department line every grace slashdot from the NYTimes article?

from the forgive-me-father-for-i-have-HADOKEN! dept.

(its even funnier than my suggestion of "from the stuff-that-antimatters dept" on a story relating to antimatter research)

Crusades

[austad]

I'm looking forward to a game, we'll call it Crusades: Kill the Heathens.

You could run around and try to convert people, and when they won't give up all of their beliefs and conform to something they've never heard of, you can kill them.

I know it's not realistic though, that would never happen in real life.

Re:Crusades

[Kosi]

I know it's not realistic though, that would never happen in real life.

Yeah, in real life they'd plunder your house, rape your wife and daughter, kill your grandparents and then ask you to convert, because they are so nice people and JC tells you to forgive them. At least that's how the crusaders did it in the middle east.

Re:Crusades

[hey!]

You could run around and try to convert people, and when they won't give up all of their beliefs and conform to something they've never heard of, you can kill them.

This would have been a great improvement upon the actual crusades, where people were simply slaughtered out of hand without the chance to convert. One account of the sacing of Jeruselem in the first crusade states that at one place in the city the blood ran to the depth a mounted knight's stirrups.

Re:Crusades

[hey!]

Clearly an exaggeration.

Very likely, but still indicitive, as was boasting of slaying infants at their mothers' breasts.

Re:Crusades

[SPY_jmr1]

Bah, these guys need to go to marketing classes... If the story was as night, do you know how many vampires would have come running to that gig???

it's a proven fact that anything with vampires in it will be an instant hit.

Re:Crusades

[macdaddy357]

To make it a challenge, some of the heathens would have to fight back, like those moozlim ayrabs who don't pray to jesus. When they do fight back, you get to call them terrorists and really bring out the heavy artillery.

Your game would have to have some witch burnings, and some bonus stages where no one fights back, and wiping them out is pretty easy. Pogrums for example: those jews in their synagogues are probably just doing witchcraft in there. Go in and kill them and the rabbi, and burn the place down, later there is a level called holocaust where you really wipe them out, and later still; you suddenly support Isreal with your whole heart, and prop up this jewish state because it is part of your recipe for armageddon.

Re:Crusades

[uncoveror]

Another good one would be Hundred Years War. In it, Catholics fight Protestants, and Protestants fight other Protestants for whose is the official church of the state all across Europe for a century. The Rolling Sones included a line about this in Sympathy For The Devil. It is my favorite part of the whole song:

"I watched in glee while your kings and queens fought for ten decades for the gods they made."

Re:Crusades

[b-baggins]

Wrong religion. You want Jihad.

The first Crusades were actually a Christian response to the sack and desecration of the Hagia Sophia by Muslims and the slaughter of Coptic Christians in the areas around Jerusalem.

Re:Crusades

[uncoveror]

Too bad that when the crusaders got to Jerusalem, they too killed the Coptic Christians for not recognizing the Pope.

Re:Crusades

[DavidTC]

That's better than the Fourth Crusade, when they sacked Constantinople, which had been Christian since it was founded. (Well, renamed.)

In fact, it was the Eastern half of the Church! It wasn't some splinter group, the Church had divided itself in half when Rome fell, and they both recognized each other. In fact, 9 years latter, Bishop of Constantinople was placed second to the Pope!

After the Pope learned of the first attack, when the man the Crusaders were paid to put on the throne was put there, the Pope forbid them from attacking again, which they did anyway when that man died.

Not only did they attack it again, but they then burned the city. After they had conquered it.

The Fourth Crusade has to go down in history as the most absurd of the Crusades. Watch the Church...attack itself! Let's convert those Catholics to Catholics!

Re:Crusades

[__aamkky7574]

Who modded this "interesting"? It's pure fiction. The Hagia Sophia in Constantinople was actually sacked by Christians in 1204, led by the then Doge of Venice: http://aggreen.net/church_history/1204_sack.html/

A mob rushed into Santa Sophia. With the Image of the Pantacrator looking down upon them from the great dome, they broke up the altar for its gold content, smashed the icons, threw the Holy Gifts to the floor, seized the church vessels for their Jewels, and tore mosaics and tapestries from the walls. Horses and mules were brought into the church the better to carry off the sacred vessels, gold, silver, and whatever else they could gather. Drunken soldiers drank from chalices and ate from patens while riding asses draped with priestly vestments. A mocking prostitute was placed on the Patriarch's chair to dance and sing obscene songs. This pattern of pilferage and desecration was repeated in churches, monasteries and palaces throughout the city. The tombs of the emperors were rifled, and all of the classical statues and monuments which had survived from ancient Greece and imperial Rome were destroyed. One writer wrote that never in history had so much beauty, so much superb craftsmanship been so wantonly destroyed in so short a space of time. What was not carried off was burned, smashed, melted down for its precious metal content, or stripped for its jewels.

In 2001, the then Pope apologised for the sack.

Constantinople was eventually conquered by the Ottomans well after the last crusade. Far from sacking it, then turned it into a mosque without much destruction (even the original mosaics - depicting human forms - were covered by plaster rather than destroyed).

P.

Re:Crusades

[b-baggins]

Hardly fiction.

From the Encylclopedia Britannica.

The Crusades:
Organized by Western Christians in response to centuries of Muslim wars of expansion.

The Crusades were usually military campaigns intended to halt or slow the advance of Muslim power.

2003 edition Encylcopedia Britannica, Volume 16, p. 822.

The first crusade was a response to the desecration of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (I mistakenly identified it as Hagia Sophia.).

It was also a response to calls for help from the Byzantium empire in response to Muslim agression and expansion in the region.

The first crusade was in 1095. The Schism between Eastern and Western Christianity occurred in 1054, and relations between the two were improving.

Many people took advantage of the call for a crusade to liberate the Christian holy sites from Muslim aggression and oppression to engage in pogroms of their own. The People's Crusade being one of the most notorious. The People's crusade was condemned by bishops and the church, and many Jews were given asylum in churches and by the bishops from the army of the People's Crusade.

As the crusades continued, they became more corrupt, thus leading to the desecration of the Hagia Sophia (some 200 years after the first crusade).

The Crusades have become the favorite whip used to lash at Christians, just like the colonization of North America has been used to assault white Europeans.

The Crusades were not the pure example of universal evil that automatically results from Christianity that Christian-haters would have you believe, just as Muslims were not the pious and saintly people living peacably at one with all mankind until assaulted by the evil Christians that these same people would have you believe.

The truth is, Islam was a militarist, expansionist religion, and the crusades were a military response to that. And just like some political and religious leaders today hijack the extreme elements of Islam in order to kill as many Jews and infidels as possible, some political and religious leaders in the 11th-14th centuries hijacked the extreme elements of Christianity in order to kill as many Jews and infidels as possible.

Re:Crusades

[Kosi]

The crusades and (christian) faith are entirely different things, although the latter was horrently abused by the former.

Where did I say anything against faith? Ist just stated the fact that the crusades were "just" a gigantic rape, pillage and plunder tour, which was put under the sign of the cross for justification and other purposes.

Re:Crusades

[mink]

What one was where they (for sport aparently) killed any jews they found on the way?

Non religious

[superpulpsicle]

I am totally non-religious, I could care less about worshiping anything. After signing up with a subscription based music service (Rhapsody), I found it shocking that christian pop/rock/hiphop sounded this good.

In fact, I have turned my view 180 degrees. I used to think religious folks never stop whinning about gangsta/satanic industrial music and video games etc. Now I seriously think they deserve a chance to be marketed.

Re:Non religious

[mbourgon]

Ya know, I didn't care either.... and then had to listen to it while eating lunch yesterday. Crappy rhymes? Check. Bad 80's guitar solos? Check. Derivative tripe? Check, check.

It was almost like watching the South Park episode - Cartman was right, they will buy anything marketed at them. I hate to say it, but I think the market's too big, it allows mediocre music to be successful. (Insert RIAA joke here)

Re:Non religious

[tratch]

Go "buy" mewithoutyou - A to B. Or anything by Norma Jean. I play this around friends who don't know what it is and they're shocked when I tell them it's Christian.

Re:Non religious

[Corngood]

If you can listen to it without realising that it's Christian, then:

a) Is it?
b: Does it matter?

'Christian music' is 100% marketing, lots of music is inspired by faith, and successful without the moniker.

Re:Non religious

[tratch]

a) Yes it is.
b) I think so.

The point of "cool" Christian music is trying to get your message across to other people who would typically not be open to the message. It's good music (or at least music that would be accepted and liked by those who are into that scene) and has deeper meaning. If you listen to it just to listen to it, great. But if you listen to it and then get the message that they're trying to get across, that's even better.
It's not music, but it's relevant: Lots of people don't know (or ignore the fact) that CS Lewis was a Christian writer. They read The Chronicles of Narnia because it was good and for that reason alone. But there are so many more layers than just the "good book" layer and it's when people unearth that and take his message to heart (or reject it) that the full worth of the book is achieved.

Re:Non religious

[superpulpsicle]

The biggest Christian selling artist of all time has to be "MC Hammer" and people wouldn't give him credit for being in the genre.

Re:Non religious

[NicKakaWoodstocK]

Have you listened to "secular" 'pop' recently? It's very lame. I've got a significant collection of 'Christian' music, but try to stay away from the poppyturd that simply tries to make Jesus cool. He wasn't cool but He was and is loved anyway. Check out http://www.project86.com/ or http://www.dayoffire.com/ for some out of the ordinary Christian rock. Re-reading your comment, it is uncertain whether you were referring to the Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) market, or the music market in general. Either way - there needs to be a bit more focus on the talent of the artists and not just what is going to sell.

Re:Non religious

[NicKakaWoodstocK]

The question is not "Is the MUSIC christian?" it should be "Is the ARTIST christian?" Alice Cooper is a Christian, so is Bono (but everyboyd knows that). In response to your statement that it's 100% marketing, so is 90% of 'mainstream' pop music. The 'debuted at #1' singles are there because their markerting companies have managed massive distributions. If you can ship 2million copies in the first week - best of luck - go to the top of the pops. cheers Woody

Re:Non religious

[mbourgon]

What I listened to was a combo of Christian Country and Christian Pop - I'm not knowledgable enough to know. The "poppyturd" does describe what I heard, though, that's for sure.

And yes, there can be good Christian rock. I heard a power metal band called "Persuader" (album was "Evolution Purgatory"), and was really impressed. The only reason I knew was because I looked them up after getting a couple lines stuck in my head ("maybe there's more to life than decay"). Not the stuff I heard, which sounded like a love song with the word "Jesus" at the end. "I want to make sweet love to you.... Jesus".

My initial thought was this was a symptom of CCM, but I guess it could be applied to the RIAA in general.

Re:Non religious

[zbyte64]

When i was a lot younger, and nintendo (8bit) was still around, i used to play this game called spiritual warfare, along with some game about noah. It was actually fairly fun, and compared well to other games at the time. One thing that did bother me however was that the game brought in doctrine (stuff not really based on the bible, but rather speculation if u ask me) that drinking was bad... but then this was a kids' game. Anyways, there was this bad game that was coded like shit and was simple. But that applies to secular games as well. Anyevent, if the game is good, ill play it. If u ask me, switchfoot is a good band, but ya, there are others that are basically the backstreet boys, but just singing love songs to jesus.

Re:Non religious

[Icupnimpn2]

Although I am Christian and have some faith, I avoid Christian rock music because I don't always feel like hearing about religion all the time, all the time. Sometimes you just want to watch a sitcom or play a board game and it doesn't have to be about Christ. I also feel that a video game or a song that isn't explicitly about Christ doesn't have to be labeled as "non-Christian." I think that it depends on the message of the particular song or game. I'd hazard a guess here and say that the majority of English-language games, music, movies, books, etc. were made by people who either are or were Christian at one time or another and I don't feel that something has to be "BY BAPTISTS 4 BAPTISTS!!!" or such to qualify.

Re:Non religious

[Icupnimpn2]

Actually, I do kinda think Jesus was cool, but not in the Mountain Dew commercial or t-shirt slogan kind of way. I don't think Christ would be your bestest buddy and hang out with you and eat potato chips and watch TV. What I think was cool about Christ, aside from his super powers (bring dead back to life, control over devils, mind-reading) was how he made the religious "authorities" of the time look like fools each and every time they sought to discredit him. Basic scenario: "You've healed this man on the Sabbath! No work is allowed on the Sabbath" Christ's reply - paraphrased - "Which of you wouldn't go looking for a missing sheep on the Sabbath?" or something similar. Zing! Snap! Jesus with the comeback.

Re:Non religious

[angle_slam]

I was surprised that there is such a thing as Christian Metalcore. A group like Zao is harder than anything you'll hear on the radio or MTV today, with distorted guitars and distorted vocals--the prototype of what some would think is "devil music". Yet the band is overtly Christian. Not like some rappers, who praise God all the time, but rap about about hos, killing, etc. Nope, Zao sings about God.

Here is their bio from Christianpunks.com

(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Kosi]

I wonder that it took so long until someone saw the enormous potential to make money in sticking $RELIGION stickers on computer games.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[cyber0ne]

It's not really a question of just saying "this game is religious" that will make it sell. Generally, marketing based on that is best suited for parents buying games for their kids, usually young kids. Thus, such religious games tend to be geared towards a very young audience and, while they do sell, they're not really all that popular.

I would be particularly interested in religion-based games that target a more mainstream audience, as most other popular games do. Let's face it, if you take Western religion as an example, the Bible is full of violent conflict that would be great for a game.

The problem as I see it, however, is in the approach taken in designing such a game. It is often a project taken on by a religious group, not a gaming group. In their eyes, the story needs to be exact, otherwise it goes against their religion. After all, you can't risk letting a child see David actually get KILLED by his enemies on the screen, that would be heresy in their minds.

Thus, the games tend to play out more like a movie than a game, which goes back to being geared more towards small children than mainstream gamers. They have to be able to risk that bit of what they call heresy if they want the game to be interesting. If you're going to play David and fight all your enemies, there needs to be an actual risk of losing if the game is to be at all enjoyable.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Meagermanx]

I always thought the problem was just that Christians are supposed to be kind, loving, and have amazing cheek-turning abilities.
You would just end up with games like "Christ Christ Revolution" and "Desert Walker Alpha 3: Tournament Edition".
Might convey the true Christian spirit, but having lame as hell games is NOT the best way to convert people.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[cyber0ne]

Well, there really is no "best way to convert people," but that's another discusstion entirely.

You do have a good point, though. When one thinks "Christian game" one thinks of the life of Christ himself, who was entirely non-violent (I mostly see him as a teacher more than anything else) and inevitably had to meet a bloody demise here on Earth. (Yes, I believe in Christ and I believe in his victory and that it has simply yet to come to fruition here on Earth, but that again is another discussion entirely.)

That's why I've pointed out the Old Testament, particularly the stories of David, in a couple posts in this thread. That's really where the shoot-em-up action can be found.

Sure, there's plenty of post-Christ violence as well, such as with the Romans or later in the dark ages, but that stuff would honestly be more difficult for a game. What would you do in a game against the Roman Empire, slowly wear it down over 300 years or more? As for the dark ages, you risk offending other cultures a bit too much and the game would get red-taped into oblivion. But who would be offended by the more ancient battles? Does anyone really claim to be descended from the Amakalites these days?

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Enrico Pulatzo]

"entirely non-violent"? Is this the same guy who fashioned a whip and drove salesmen out of the temple?

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone really claim to be descended from the Amakalites these days?

You mean the Amalekites? I'll bet they're still around. First Saul repaid a centuries-old grudge by killing the Amalakite King Agag "and all his people" (1 Samuel 15), which you wouldn't think would leave any behind... but not long afterward, David had to invade the Amalekites, smite the land, "and left neither man nor woman alive" (1 Samuel 27) again. Unfortunately David didn't see a pattern yet, and he let his guard down after all they were all dead, so he ended up having to fight the Amalekites a third time (1 Samuel 30) when they invaded.

This time, though, David let 400 of their young men get away, having learned the video game strategy that the only way to beat an infinitely respawning opponent is to cripple without killing.

As for the Amalekites? Like I said, they must be still around (since they're clearly unkillable), but I don't think they'll speak up to claim offense at any Old Testament video games. There's another relevant video game truth: even when you just have to wait and respawn, dying sucks. Perhaps God is more tolerant of millenia-old grudges than of centuries-old ones, but why take the risk? Wherever the Amalekites are now, they're keeping their mouths shut.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Anonymous Coward]

> You would just end up with games like "Christ Christ Revolution"

Totally, I can never get that "wine wine water wine water loaves wine wine fishes loaves loaves" combo in level 7.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[MyLongNickName]

Yup. We need him to make another visit and drive the political salesman out.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Anonymous Coward]

Religion is a golden cash cow...

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Anonymous Coward]

What about torturing siners in hell, that seems like a game many so called christians would love.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[NicKakaWoodstocK]

Religion is the bane of my existance. There is a strong line between Religion and Faith. Anybody can walk into a church every Sunday, sing a few songs and listen to some guy speak. It is the faith that Jesus died for your sins and was resurrected on three days later (or whatever else you believe) that shines through you and your actions that can change lives.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Anonymous Coward]

"Thus, the games tend to play out more like a movie than a game"

Be perfect for those people who play the newest iterations of Final Fantasy and Xenosaga, huh? Maybe they should market them to japanophiles.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[king-manic]

Just a notE: Cheek turnign isn't rolling over and playind dead. It's defiance. If someone beats you, make them kill you. Show you don't care what they do here because your reward is else where.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Meagermanx]

urning the other cheek is NOT a vicious and offensive act. It's an anti-violence philosophy. If someone hits me and I turn the other cheek, I am showing that I am above violence, and that it is not the way to settle things, not laughing in their face because 'they're going to hell'.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[king-manic]

urning the other cheek is NOT a vicious and offensive act. It's an anti-violence philosophy. If someone hits me and I turn the other cheek, I am showing that I am above violence, and that it is not the way to settle things, not laughing in their face because 'they're going to hell'.


Thats the common belief and thats wrong. Turning the other cheek is a act of passive defiance. Why turnt he cheek is you can just let him hit the same one? Check out the history of the phrase and the meaning behind it. You are inviting them to hit you again. You defy them. You force them to either back down or strike you again.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Meagermanx]

This is why Christians are given a bad name! Jesus wasn't about defying people, he was about helping people! This blond, blue eyed, white, vengeful Jesus is not who the guy was! Jesus -and this may shock you!- doesn't hate gays. Nope. Commonly held misconception. A camel fitting through the eye of a needle wasn't said about a gate. Giving a man another days work wasn't an act of defiance! Hitting the guy back would be an act of defiance. Telling people to turn their other cheek was his way of saying that we shouldn't fight if it's not necessary. If you can walk away, do so. That's what he was about. It wasn't about some Braveheart act of defiance. Jesus was a pretty cool guy, but he wasn't Arnold Schwarzenegger cool. He was Mr. Rogers cool.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[king-manic]

This is why Christians are given a bad name! Jesus wasn't about defying people, he was about helping people! This blond, blue eyed, white, vengeful Jesus is not who the guy was! Jesus -and this may shock you!- doesn't hate gays. Nope. Commonly held misconception. A camel fitting through the eye of a needle wasn't said about a gate. Giving a man another days work wasn't an act of defiance! Hitting the guy back would be an act of defiance. Telling people to turn their other cheek was his way of saying that we shouldn't fight if it's not necessary. If you can walk away, do so. That's what he was about. It wasn't about some Braveheart act of defiance. Jesus was a pretty cool guy, but he wasn't Arnold Schwarzenegger cool. He was Mr. Rogers cool.

You mistake the word defiance for vengence. Ghandi was defiant, tell me anything about what he did that was violent?

That's the problem, we have lost the spirit of christianity and replaced it. Christianity is standing up stoically to the lions and defying the emporor, we will not beg for our lives because you are not our lord. That is the spirit of christianity, your ideas of christianity are much more modern. Early christians we're just hippies.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[Meagermanx]

Really? That's news to me. See, I always thought Christianity was about love and peace. I always figured you wouldn't have to try to show your superiority to your enemy to fell good about yourself, or make him feel bad. I kind of always figured you would try to show him the light, not let him rot in Hell, if you believed in such a place. I sort of feel that Christianity was Jesus's way of trying to help people get along. I never really thought it was about Heaven and Hell, if good people go to Hell, and bad people who 'repent' get to live forever. This whole "I'm holier than thou. I'm going to Heaven. You're going to hell. Hah!" thing really bothers me, I must say.

Re:(Organized) Religion is always a cash-cow

[king-manic]

Really? That's news to me. See, I always thought Christianity was about love and peace. I always figured you wouldn't have to try to show your superiority to your enemy to fell good about yourself, or make him feel bad. I kind of always figured you would try to show him the light, not let him rot in Hell, if you believed in such a place. I sort of feel that Christianity was Jesus's way of trying to help people get along. I never really thought it was about Heaven and Hell, if good people go to Hell, and bad people who 'repent' get to live forever. This whole "I'm holier than thou. I'm going to Heaven. You're going to hell. Hah!" thing really bothers me, I must say.

The early church and the modern church dont' resemble each other much.

Oh, the possibilities

[Toast10101]

I, for one, can't wait for "Jesus Christ: Vampire Hunter"

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[HaloZero]

My roommate is currently bubbling over ecstatic at the very idea of your post. Congratulations. You've turned him into a babbling idiot. I only wish I had a camera.

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[Toast10101]

Check out the Movie

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[SetupWeasel]

You do know that there is a movie by that name.

Watch it very, very drunk.

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[hey!]

Well, one medieval myth about Jesus that would be pretty close is the myth of the Harrowing of Hell.

God has been spoken of as King and Jesus as Lord since the very early days of Christianity. In medieval terms, this is understood of course to mean they are knights, and indeed there was a great deal of speculation among the heraldicly inclined as to the exact device Jesus would have borne upon his shield. So what does the Supereme Warrior do after the devil's minions have him strung up to die?

Go to Hell and kick butt!

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[CableModemSniper]

* 3 people recommended Ultrachrist! in addition to Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a copy of that movie as kind of a joke, but all I can say if that it freaking rocks. I definately recommend anyone who finds the idea slightly amusing to check it out.

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[Crash Culligan]

Yeah, that should have a good following, but personally I'm holding out for "Apostle Rancher."

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[Holi]

Yes I know, in fact, let me check.... Yep there it is in my CD case along with Riki-o, 2 of my favorite bad movies.

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[DavidTC]

One word: SimSavior.

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[KozmoStevnNaut]

"The power of Christ impales you!"

Re:Oh, the possibilities

[Jakeypants]

I was thinking something more along the lines of a hentai game, either called "The Second Cumming on Christ" or "In God We Thrust."

(those are actually songs by my band, Jesus Christ's Vagina)

Syncretism

[hey!]

Fusion of differing systems of belief, especially when success is partial or the result is heterogeneous.

As much as one might long to go ad fontes -- to the wellspring, Christianity as we know it in the West is irretrievably commingled with the violent, demon haunted world view of the northern tribes it filtered through. Certain elements of the ancient first and second century viewpoint can be recaptured, such as proximate parousia (the belief in the imminent Secnd Coming), but somehow they come out with more than a soupçon of Ragnarok in them.

So, we have the violent fantasy of divinely sanctioned holy war, in which, drawing the sword in the name of the Prince of Peace, indulging one's blood lust is not only sinless, but a positive good.

For most, Holy War is of course a metaphor. But where there is a metaphor, be certain that some will take it literally. Games are only games of course, except when they are indoctrination. That's difference between a Christian FPS and, say, GTA, which although it is disgusting in my opinion, is also harmless because it is meant to be, and is understood to be an absurd view of the world.

Re:Syncretism

[mausmalone]

::looks up some of those words in the dictionary::

I don't know that the latin was totally necessary, but you do have a solid point. This is a big reason why most Christian games don't do well. Most either take the place of an action/fps type title where you're on the good side of a holy war (or literally a war between heaven and hell sometimes), or it's like a choose your own adventure stories, but with the world's most obvious "correct" choices. That's probably why the only really successful christian games I can think of are the old NES Bible Adventures games (because they did semi-fun things, like playing Noah and gathering animals to place in the ark).

When I really think of it, though, probably the most "christian" game I've ever played in terms of values and teachings would have to be Animal Crossing. There's no violence, but there's still lots to do, with a heavy emphasis on helping your neighbors and improving your neighborhood.

Granted, there's nothing officially christian in Animal Crossing, but it does teach a lot of the (often overlooked) values from the new testament.

Re:Syncretism

[Hobbes828]

GTA, which although it is disgusting in my opinion, is also harmless because it is meant to be, and is understood to be an absurd view of the world.

While I don't want to argue about whether GTA is completely evil, I think harmless might be going to far, simply because from the outside you can understand it as an absurd view, doesn't mean those who play it for 60 hours still do..see the recent news article where 2 guys got acquitted from a crime where they killed a guy doing an e-brake skid because it was shown they were trying to mimic the things they learned in GTA.

Re:Syncretism

[TheWatchfulBabbler]

Speaking of syncretism, wasn't Kamthaka the Buddha's horse? Benedict XVI would like to have a word with you ....

Well. In any case, I think that Christianity was, let's not say 'corrupted,' but certainly significantly changed by its fusion with Imperial cult and circumstance, beginning in 312 CE and reaching a violent apotheosis around 415 CE. It's a pretty long historical haul (roughly another two centuries) before the Germans and Gauls had a significant influence on Church doctrine, and violence had become an often-preferred addition to the Church's toolbox long before. (This doesn't obviate your core point -- that modern Christianity has a bit of the Norse in it -- but I think the blame extends further back.)

As for the idea of "Christian videogames," I tend to blanch at the idea of "Christian media" in general. Such works usually end up either puerile or proselytizing, and rarely any good at all -- they turn Christianity into something about as powerful as an Amway pamphlet.

From just looking over the companies' websites, it looks like N'Lightning is pretty awful (one of its games includes a miserably literal interpretation of Ephesians 6, and I shudder at how they must treat other cultures and religions encountered in the course of that game); Digital Praise could be pretty good; and Brethren's only got vaporware.

Re:Syncretism

[TheWatchfulBabbler]

Okay, from the NYT:

[Digital Praise's] ''Odyssey'' is the name of an imaginary and ruthlessly idealized Midwestern town in which kids solve mysteries with the help of a kindly old local inventor and ice-cream-shop owner named Whit, who in his spare time is a consultant for the U.S. Department of Defense.

They still could be good games, but I have to admit, I don't think Christ would have been on Rumsfeld's payroll. To steal a line from a bumper sticker, "Who Would Jesus Bomb?"

And then there's this:

The Christian gamers' position is that, while you may fight the Devil and lose, you may not fight as the Devil.

Screwtape would be proud.

Re:Syncretism

[hey!]

This doesn't obviate your core point -- that modern Christianity has a bit of the Norse in it -- but I think the blame extends further back.

Well, of course, anything we write here is a simplification.

Speaking of syncretism, wasn't Kamthaka the Buddha's horse? Benedict XVI would like to have a word with you ....

He'll have to catch me first, which will be tough as I ride the noble Kamthaka into syncretic bliss. ;-)

Re:Syncretism

[Anonymous Coward]

...see the recent news article where 2 guys got acquitted from a crime where they killed a guy doing an e-brake skid because it was shown they were trying to mimic the things they learned in GTA.

Apparently reading is not your strong point. The guy who got killed was the same guy who was said to be trying to mimic the GTA stunt. It had very little to do with GTA, but the Slashdot blurb twisted it that way. The "editors" do nothing to prevent such things, and even encourage them by picking out those stories to post, and people like you lap it all up.

Re:Syncretism

[Anonymous Coward]

see the recent news article where 2 guys got acquitted from a crime where they killed a guy doing an e-brake skid because it was shown they were trying to mimic the things they learned in GTA.

Dude, powerslides and idiots trying them were around long before GTA. They merely found something convenient to blame, if the veracity of the story is even to be believed (and I'm leaning toward that it isn't).

Re:Syncretism

[yotto]

2 guys got acquitted from a crime where they killed a guy doing an e-brake skid because it was shown they were trying to mimic the things they learned in GTA.

To me, that shows more a problem with the court than the game. I've personally put hundreds of hours into the first two GTA3 games (and intend on putting more into San Andreas when it comes out for the PC) and I have yet to attempt cutting through the local strip mall's pedestrian-only area so I can return a video 30 seconds quicker.

Re:Syncretism

[Anonymous Coward]

Adventures in Odyssey is a long-running series of radio plays and books for children. The character Whit is well established by now. From what little I remember about the radio show, which I last heard while I still liked the Snorks, it was rather good and dealt with pretty deep topics for children. I don't remember Whit working for the DoD, but I'd wager it's simply a plot device to explain why he has the means to build some of his stranger inventions. I seem to recall some sort of virtual reality device that let people experience Bible stories personally, for example. However, I suppose things could have changed for the worse since I was a kid.

Re:Syncretism

[Golias]

Yeah, like you didn't haul ass under the elevated trains in Chicago with the spedometer pinned out right after the first time you saw "The French Connection!" ... or am I the only one?

Re:Syncretism

[amliebsch]

Of course not, I did that after watching "The Blues Brothers."

Re:Syncretism

[Anonymous Coward]

The claim that the "violent, demon-haunted world" of the Christian West is somehow attributable to "the northern tribes" is profoundly in error.

For example, "demon" is a greek word. That's all that needs to be said.

Also, St. Augustine of Carthage -- that's in Africa, buddy -- is responsible for the officiality of the "divinely sanctioned holy war" doctrine.

Peace out.

Re:Syncretism

[hey!]

For example, "demon" is a greek word. That's all that needs to be said.

Oh, bu-rother. It also didn't mean the same thing at all as the English word. Is this an erudite troll?

Also, St. Augustine of Carthage -- that's in Africa, buddy -- is responsible for the officiality of the "divinely sanctioned holy war" doctrine.

I believe you mean Augustine of Hippo and "just war" theory. Different kettle of fish.

Re:Syncretism

[antifoidulus]

That's probably why the only really successful christian games I can think of are the old NES Bible Adventures games (because they did semi-fun things, like playing Noah and gathering animals to place in the ark).
Not to mention repeatedly throwing Moses into the river :P

Re:Syncretism

[JonathanBoyd]

As much as one might long to go ad fontes -- to the wellspring, Christianity as we know it in the West is irretrievably commingled with the violent, demon haunted world view of the northern tribes it filtered through. Certain elements of the ancient first and second century viewpoint can be recaptured, such as proximate parousia (the belief in the imminent Secnd Coming), but somehow they come out with more than a soupçon of Ragnarok in them.

A church which teaches the Bible as the word of God will be going back to what was written in the first century AD and previous to that and would therefore be avoiding the contamination you suggest.

Re:Syncretism

[mink]

"I seem to recall some sort of virtual reality device that let people experience Bible stories personally, for example."

When will they put a decent firewall on Questworld?

First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this'll get modded to troll quickly, because I'm daring to say something most Christians don't want to hear, but if a Christian is supposed to be like Christ, and Christ was the "Prince of Peace", then I can't help but ask, if Jesus were in the situations created in such a game, what would he do?

And wouldn't the goal, in a Christian game, be to do what Jesus would do?

So, yes, I would think any kind of shooter would be the antithesis of what Christ taught.

But I know few Christians that ever consider that, since it would be inconvenient.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[cyber0ne]

But I know few Christians that ever consider that, since it would be inconvenient.

You know mostly lazy Christians.

Read the Old Testament for the more violent epics. Consider this for a video game:

You are recruited into the king's army. You fight battle after battle, each one more challenging than the last. Eventually, you have more political clout than the king himself because you're such a great war hero. The king then tries to kill you, but his own son betrays him and helps you flee. Actually, I forget what happened between the fleeing and the king's death (feel free to look it up, it should be in the books of Samuel), but eventually you return and are crowned king yourself. You fight more battles, further establish your kingdom. You raise your son to be a great leader after you. Etc. Etc.

If done well, such things could make for pretty good video games. And that's just one character in one religion (or one combined source of a couple religions).

Re:First Person Shooters?

[noerobert]

Yea, the Prince of Peace, took a cat of nine tails to the money lenders in the temple. Considering that the cat of nine tail is pretty much the most painful weapon avalible to him it would be like Rael taking a taser to the crotch of every one who doubted him and defied his vision.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying there are no possibilities. As a pacifist myself, I strongly believe you can have great dramatic situations without anyone resorting to violence.

But I am saying that any kind of shooter is the antithesis of what Christ taught. It seems we forget that today and many Christians justify capital punishment, heavy handed police action, and even war, without ever asking themselves (in regard to such things), "WWJD?"

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct in your assumption that First Person Shooters are certainly not Christlike. The cold fact is that most "Christians" really aren't Christians. They go to church and follow man-made rituals, but they simply don't believe that Jesus Christ was sent to Earth by God to serve as the final and ultimate sacrifice for people's sins. They don't believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins. The Bible is very clear that those who believe are saved, and those who don't are not.

Does this make believing Christians sinless? No, means that those sins they commit are forgiven by God if they repent, and those who believe are more likely to seek Christlikeness.

Fact is that Catholics and most Protestant denominations are simply not New Testament churches in doctrine or belief. They ascribe to so many man-made rules that the original intent of Christianity is lost.

Try looking to more independent, Bible teaching churches (like Independent baptists, etc.) for a better view of what Christians should be. Most likely, you will be put off by their ultra-conservative views, but that's Biblical. They are much closer to New Testament church doctrine and intent than most other churches.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[nomadic]

The problem is the Old Testament isn't really THAT epic if you place all the wars and kings and stuff in their proper historical context. Just a bunch of petty kinglets in a tiny corner of the Mediterannean.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[cyber0ne]

It seems we forget that today

On that tangent, I couldn't agree with you more. As a Christian I am personally offended both by the terrible things other Christians do in the name of our religion, as well as by the reactions of others who associate me with the "bad" Christians simply because we walk around with the same book in our hands, even though we interpret the book very VERY differently.

I am interested, though, in your mentioning of great dramatic situations without anyone resorting to violence. Perhaps you can blame TV for this, but as I sit here I'm honestly having trouble coming up with an example that would translate well to a video game. Literature, sure. Movies, easy. But video games? That's a level of interaction not found in other mediums. With the exception of Tetris and the like, can you supply any examples or, conversely, any original ideas?

I'm not trolling, I'd honestly like to know. Not only because such information may prove useful as the small church I attend grows, but I'm also about to become a parent for the first time and would love to familiarize myself with such a game genre that I can give to my child[ren] down the road.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[cyber0ne]

Placed in a grand historical context, the life and drama of any protagonist in any video game or movie or book becomes insignificant. Focus that lens of history a bit wider, and the entire history of our planet is barely an instantaneous blip on a cosmic radar screen. What's your point?

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact is that Catholics and most Protestant denominations are simply not New Testament churches

I've heard that said and seen it used in leaflets over and over.

By labelling other groups (like Roman Catholics, for example), it makes it easy to dismiss them as less or "not us." It also completely ignores a major point: The New Testament was put together by the Roman Catholic Church. They decided what went in and what was left out. It was the Roman Catholic Church that decided to put in Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, but leave out Thomas. It was the same Church that left out what Jesus said about reincarnation.

Before you start talking about what other groups do, take enough time to actually study them, as well as the history of your own church and scriptures before judging them. Whatever doctrine and theology is in the New Testament is in there because the Roman Catholic Church wanded it in there.

You are talking about looking at more independent sources, but have you looked at sources that document the history of how the Bible was put together? Have you looked at sources that explore the people involved with deciding what was put in the Bible? Or do you just accept whatever tells you what you want to hear?

Re:First Person Shooters?

[jesuscash]

There was this one game, it was a either a mod or a repack of the original Doom or Wolfenstein, that was a Noah FPS. Instead of killing things you fed animals and they fell asleep. I think I read about it from one of Seanbaby's articles. Either his website or The Wave magazine.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[shmigget]

I was raised attending Independent and Southern Baptist churches and was "saved" at age 14, and now that I'm older and have read more I can say they tend to not be Christ-like. Rather, they tend to be more hateful and exclusionary than other denominations. You disagree? These are the same churches that preach that homosexuals are to be ostracized and hated, yet Christ would have ministered and protected them, just as he did with the prostitute who was about to be stoned.

Fundamentalists are too invested in behaving self-righteously and proclaiming how persecuted they are to turn the other cheek and love their enemies as Christ instructed. Jesus said, "As you do to the least among you, you do to me." Well, considering how Fundamentalist Christians treat homosexuals, Roman Catholics, liberals, Moslems, and anyone else who disagrees with them, they do wrong by Christ all the time.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the whole homosexual issue wasn't a big deal, but I read about how several "insiders" admitted that when the Soviet Unioin fell, the religious right was having trouble raising money (they no longer had a devil to blame for all the problems in society), so they looked about and realized they could start holding homosexuals up as a threat, and use that as something to campaign against.

Fundies and others who follow this God who speaks of love have to have someone to hate, so they can blame someone for everything they don't like. It's like what the book "Grendel" points out: The Danes had no heroes and no greatness until they had Grendel to hate and fear -- they were only able to define themselves by having something hateful to be their opposite.

I used to work in a new-age bookstore. One time a man and his wife came in, he looked around, then asked about Bibles. He was surprised that we had several editions. We got to talking, I told him about how I had taught in a Southern Baptist school for a while. He said he used to be a Southern Baptist, but those who took over the denomination were fundies that had nothing to do with Christ, but were just a group of mean people who used the Bible as an excuse to be exclusionary, mean, and hateful to others.

I had to agree with him.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Blakey Rat]

What about city building games? Or other strategy titles?

I could easily see a Christian-themed SimCity-type game, or Civilization-type game.

Then of course there are abstract games, like Q-Bert or Pac-Man, but I don't see how you'd fit a Christian theme in those.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, yes, I would think any kind of shooter would be the antithesis of what Christ taught.

There is one, and only one, recorded instance where Christ advocated killing: Child abusers.

He said that if somebody is prone to hurting children, it was best that a heavy rock be tied to their necks and tossed into deep water.

Kind of hard to argue with that one, pacifist or not.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Book, Chapter, and Verse?

(Not arguing, just want reference -- thanks!)

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interactvie fiction. Point and click adventures.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[Dr.Opveter]

Matthew 18:6 (King James Version)

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me,
it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and
that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

This verse could be more a warning to be careful not to lead others to sin rather than it being about child abusers. Little ones would refer to His children, being those who believe in Christ.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[JonathanBoyd]

Fundamentalists are too invested in behaving self-righteously and proclaiming how persecuted they are to turn the other cheek and love their enemies as Christ instructed. Jesus said, "As you do to the least among you, you do to me." Well, considering how Fundamentalist Christians treat homosexuals, Roman Catholics, liberals, Moslems, and anyone else who disagrees with them, they do wrong by Christ all the time.

Well there's some nice sweeping statements.

I take it that by saying Fundamentalists do wrong, you're stating what you consider to be an absolute i.e. objective, rather than subjective truth. Afterall, if it's objective, then the viewpoint has no inherent legitimacy and matters no more than any other. If it is objective, then you have to accept that there can be other absolute, objective truths.

If the need to repent and believe in Christ as the only way to God, if the need to be redeemed by his death on the cross, his blood paying the price of death that we deserve for failing to live up to God's standards, if that is an absolute truth, then anyone who does not do it (i.e. repent and believe) is in trouble - they're ignoring the only route to salvation and headed for Hell. The most loving thing to do in that circumstance is obviously to graciously tell people that they're wrong and show them the only route to salvation.

Note the use of the word 'graciously.' It means not shoving it in people's faces, not persecuting those who believe differently, not thinking you're better than them, etc. But ti does mean being bold and sincere and eager to tell them. Anything else would be unloving.

The same applies to homosexuals. If homosexual acts are a sin, as the Bible says, then the most loving thing to tell a non-Christian homosexual is the gospel and the most loving thing to tell a Christian practising homosexual is that it is a sin and they need to repent, or they're hurting their relationship with God. Again, it's something done graciously, not arrogantly. Everyone has sinned and homosexual acts are no different. Anyone who looks down on a homosexual as a worse sinner or screams hate at them while claiming to be a Christian is deeply offending God and calling down judgement on themselves. Telling someone that they're doing wrong is not, however, hateful.

Now, to classify all Fundamentalists as being too invested in behaving self-righteously and saying that they're failing to be loving in their treatment of other people is true to a certain extent because everyone is flawed. It's not a fair or accurate generalisation to make however as most of the Fundamentalists I know are very loving toward homosexuals and people of other (or no) beliefs. While at the same time declaring the gospel to them. A Fundamentalist, after all, is someone who believes in the fundamentals of the Bible i.e. the Gospel.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[nomadic]

Nope. A game based on Alexander, or Genghis Khan, or Napolean would be pretty significant in a historical perspective. A game focusing on a couple of very minor Meditterannean kingdoms wouldn't be.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[cyber0ne]

I'm still not seeing your point. Are you arguing that all games need to be based on characters of relatively(*) great historical significance if they are to have any hope of becoming successful? What is the historical significance of the main character(s) from the GTA games, or the Resident Evil games, or Mario and Luigi for that matter?

(*)"relatively" - Your definition of "historical significance" is still a bit vague. You're saying that one figure is insignficant when compared to another. But what happens when you place that other figure in an even greater context? He, too, becomes insignificant. Where do you draw the line?

Re:First Person Shooters?

[nomadic]

Obviously not; but those games that TRY for an epic feel and that are based on historical events should pick those events that occupy an important part of human history. And we use the context of human history because that's what the context we live with. But they can pick what they want, they just shouldn't expect me to buy them if they're focusing on a bunch of mesopotamian goat herders.

Re:First Person Shooters?

[mink]

Adventure/puzzle is probably where the strength of it would be.
Imagine a game where your character end up on some journey, and are faces with a variety of situation that you can interact with. None of them should have immediate affect outside of the situation and how you resolve it. (I guess a bit like how you chose light side or dark side in the first KOTR game, interactions that shape your character) combined with puzzles either based on history of the religion or the scripture, even based on elements of it.
By the end you may find you have chose poorly and while completing the game, ended up damning yourself, or others, and vice versa.
At least that way it's not on rails.

Cha-Ching

[durtbag]

I have to believe that companies like this, providing they have the PS seal o' approval, will do well here in the U.S. Remeber during the last Presidential Election there was that map that had all that red all over it? Those are potential customers who want their children to have fun, but don't want to worry whether 8 year old Jebediah and 10 year old Ezekiel will be crushing a hooker's skull with a brick after fonicating with her.

Re:Cha-Ching

[SPY_jmr1]

But... but... They're going to be doing that when they grow up... Why not get um started?

Re:Cha-Ching

[Anonymous Coward]

Those are potential customers who want their children to have fun, but don't want to worry whether 8 year old Jebediah and 10 year old Ezekiel will be crushing a hooker's skull with a brick after fonicating with her.

You'd be suprised what some people do. I heard a story about a family who believed masterbation was evil, so they taped their baby's arms to the bed so he couldn't touch himself. Sheesh. The happy ending is I think they're in jail now for child abuse, the family is broken, and who knows where the kid is. All this for believing some stupid myth about masterbation.

Amount of care

[Anonymous Coward]

I could care less about worshiping anything.

How much less could you care?

Lots of money to be made

[moof1138]

There is a fairly large subset of Christians in the U.S. who really want to hide from modern society. They are threatened by secular society, threatened by contemporary culture, threatened by modern science, etc. Marketing escapist stuff that helps to reinforce their little worldview would certainly be a cash cow.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[CrazyJim1]

When society is selling sex, drugs, and immoral behavior, of course Christians would not want to indulge in it. I used to like GTA:Vice City, but since God spoke to me, I threw it away and didn't buy GTA:San Andreas. There are definately video games out there that God doesn't want you to be playing. The trouble is that they're not always easy to spot. You could be playing an RPG, and then towards the end it could force you to worship some false god to continue. Video games are notorious for suprises popping up. Thats why it would be nice for some Christian games. Games a morally straight person won't have to worry about sinning in the heart to play.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny thing ... if I said the trees and rocks were talking to me, they'd call me a nutcase. You probably would. But if I say it's God, it's all right. I guess nonsense is a popularity contest.

I'm so glad I'm no longer a born-again. What a deluded fool I was.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[unapersson]

"You could be playing an RPG, and then towards the end it could force you to worship some false god to continue. Video games are notorious for suprises popping up."

But what's to stop a subversive "christian" game doing the same thing? Wouldn't that be an attractive method for the evil corrupters of good god-fearing Christians. Selling wholesome Christian games with a special surprise element.

Obviously, the only real solution is to write all the games that your children play yourself, and hope that you yourself having unknowingly been corrupted.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[Blakey Rat]

Read some of CrazyJim's other replies-- he's definately a nutcase. About the best entertainment here on Slashdot, also.

Even better is CrazyJim2, the troll who follows him around and writes sometimes hilarious posts.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[CrazyJim2]

What the hell? Some guy takes my name and forces me to be CrazyJim2 and then goes and copies all of my great game ideas, and I'm the troll? As if! However, CrazyJim has a point. I used to be top rated in Warcraft 3, but then I found out the IEEE was trying to subvert me through that game. That's why I'm designing a game with Tekken-like third person FPS action that will bring people together. Using my scientific computing skills, I found out that if properly implemented True A.I. will research bees and God and build me a spaceship toget out of this horrible place. Until then, I will keep designing my game. I am currently implementing these cool swords with rockets in the hilt. If Sony really wanted to make money they'd publish my game.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[Blakey Rat]

Case in point.

(To get the joke, make sure you read CrazyJim1's posting history and shitty Geocities website.)

Re:Lots of money to be made

[amliebsch]

Aren't almost all video games escapist? How many people come home from a hard day of battling hell demons on Mars to play Doom3? Are WWII veterans the ones playing Band of Brothers?

Re:Lots of money to be made

[NicKakaWoodstocK]

AMEN.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is, you couldn't stand up to the persecution of the intellectual community, so you gave up your cross in order to return to the world?

I agree, though, that all too many Christians get convinced they should be "hearing" from God everywhere they go. When they find out He isn't speaking to the them, they usually get pretty hurt. I know I did.

When this happens, it just goes to show how todays methods of "event evangelism" and showroom hokeyness give people saving faith temporarily, but it is like seeds planted on rock, without soil to prevent the wind (or the cares of this world) from blowing them away.

Delusional? You can't get through this life without getting majorly deceived. I'm sorry you blamed God for wind blowing you over.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[MrBulwark]

Yes, but the Amish dont have PS2's :(

Re:Lots of money to be made

[Anonymous Coward]

"You could be playing an RPG, and then towards the end it could force you to worship some false god to continue. Video games are notorious for suprises popping up."

You must be a retard.

I've never heard of something so ridiculous. You're obviously getting your RPG knowledge in brainwashing 101.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

Actually, some game a while back (I think it was Earthbound) had a relatively useless pray command that didn't help much during the game, but to win in the final battle, you needed to use it. I'm sure someone could find a way to assume that it involved praying to a "false god" and get worked up about it, but I haven't run into anyone like that so far. I wouldn't be surprised if they're out there, though.

Re:Lots of money to be made

[mink]

Will the spaceship be in your likeness?

100 Philistine Foreskins

[putamare]

Collect 100 Philistine Foreskins & win the princess. 200 for bonus points!

Re:100 Philistine Foreskins

[SPY_jmr1]

Just what the world needs... A generation of brainwashed children who can't tell reality from fantasy (because you KNOW they arn't responsible for shooting up the schools.. it's the video games!), to know what to do with the obscure tools on their Freedom nee Swiss Amy Knives!

I for one, am buying a nut-cup at the earliest opportunity.

Re:100 Philistine Foreskins

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a FPS where you are Eric Rudolph, trying to kill abortion doctors?

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd have to say, an interesting game where you could play "son of god" would rock

Get outside the box

[FreshMeat-BWG]

Scott Wong, of Brethren, acknowledges that ''the actual act of pulling a trigger and hunting down something -- somebody might have a problem with that. I always tell people that if you want good drama, you have to have conflict -- without that, you can't make your point.''

I didn't realize that the only solution to conflict and the only way to create drama is "pulling a trigger and hunting down something".

I am a Christian and I look forward to seeing high-quality Christian-themed games (even those including forms of violence), but to really create a new market that doesn't simply compete for shelf-space with other FPS titles, wouldn't a new gaming paradigm be a better opportunity?

For that matter, there are other game types that could be well suited to spreading the Word of God that don't require killing someone or something such as puzzle, adventure, strategy, simulation, etc.

I am not arguing that a Christian game should be void of violence, but these Christian game developers should not lock themselves into the mode of thinking that the only way to develop a hugely popular title is to compete directly with other hugely popular titles such as other FPS titles with gratuitous violence.

Christian developers say they will not embrace: the moral relativism embodied in the R.P.G.

So violence is OK, but looking at things from other perspectives is not? Again I don't think these guys should make this assumption across the board. Let someone play the role of Satan; however, if this is a faith-based/Christian game that is to teach a certain message, then I would assume playing that role would provide the opportunity to teach the lesson of why playing that role is not as desirable as it initially seems.

Re:Get outside the box

[nelsonal]

I've never understood why the RPG system is deemed evil by so many Christians. Sure the rule set would be quite different from a normal one, but imagine the power of an RPG that used something like the drug use of Fallout to represent sin, it could be beneficial in the short run, but very costly in the long run. The bible is quite clear that sin is pleasurable for a season, and a great deal of a Christian life requires that people leave the mindset of what feels good now, to focus on more lasting rewards (not just heaven, but doing benevolent good for your neighbor doesn't get you much back now, but probably makes you a friend in the long run). Christian living always seemed to hold a ton of great source material for an RPG.

Re:Get outside the box

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because it isn't. There's only a small subset of excitable people who think that.

Don't make the mistake of confusing 'extremely vocal' with 'majority'

Re:Get outside the box

[vertinox]

For that matter, there are other game types that could be well suited to spreading the Word of God that don't require killing someone or something such as puzzle, adventure, strategy, simulation, etc.

Actually would the Spanish Inquisition be considered a simulation or a puzzle?

I jest! I jest!

Re:Get outside the box

[kniLnamiJ-neB]

Christian developers say they will not embrace: the moral relativism embodied in the R.P.G.

Any game developers want to go into business with me? Looks like an easy monopoly...

Re:Get outside the box

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a Christian and I look forward to seeing high-quality Christian-themed games

Bwa-ha-ha. Good luck. Most christian-themed attempts to cash in on trends are usually complete SHIT. It reflects a fundamental incapacity of christians to do ANYTHING well whenever there's a half-assed alternative: why bother trying for quality when your market is practically guaranteed to buy whatever drivel you produce anyway?

Re:Get outside the box

[mink]

"I didn't realize that the only solution to conflict and the only way to create drama is "pulling a trigger and hunting down something"."

I am hugely bothered by this mindset.
I first started to notice it and get outraged when I first saw "Falling Down". Instead of an interesting ending involving the mental illness the main character suffered from, the writer/director/producer insisted that the problem needs to be solved with a bullet. The last scene is such total crap and badly done.

Christian game reviews

[Reignking]

There are plenty of Christian-centered game review web sites out there...

I can see it now..."You turn the corner" "You hear something" "You ask yourself, WWJD?"

Re:Christian game reviews

[Meagermanx]

That would make a friggin' hilarious text-based adventure game... If I had mod points, sir, you would get one.

Re:Christian game reviews

[Dr. GeneMachine]

Yeah, infocom-style, man!

You are in a maze of twisty little dogmas, all alike.
It is pitch black. You might get eaten by a heretic.
>WWJD
For hints consult your hint booklet.

Old NES Games

[nathanmace]

Does anyone remember the old NES games that were Christian faith-based? One was a puzzle type game where you played Moses. Another was a Zelda type game with different armour representing the different aspects of faith.

I got them for Christmas one year, I don't remember the names. I wonder if anyone else played them? I've never saw them or heard them mentioned anywhere, ever.

Re:Old NES Games

[LearningHard]

I remember seeing these at a overnight b-day party I attended of a friends. I really don't remember them being any worse than anything else but we spent most of our time playing Blades of Steel so we could get in hockey fights.

Re:Old NES Games

[orgelspieler]

My favorite was the Noah's Ark one. You had to collect 2 or 7 of every animal. Pretty good graphics for the time (early 90's). It ran on NES, but it had to piggyback on a "real" Nintendo cartridge. I always wondered if that was legal or not.

Re:Old NES Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, those would be Bible Adventures and Spiritual Warfare, respectively. In Bible Adventures, You didn't play as Moses, you played as his mother, there was also one as Noah, and one as David. You may remember the Moses one the most if you've played it...most anyone I've heard from who has finds it so hard that they will start throwing little baby Moses in the river on purpose! Spiritual Warfare was a bit better, I think it managed to even have a slight bit of non-linearity. Whew, that was longer than I expected for my first post on /.!

Re:Old NES Games

[Anonymous Coward]

The Moses puzzle game was called Exodus: Journey to the Promised Land. I had the gameboy version, which ironically, was stolen.

http://www.wisdomtreegames.com/exodus/

Re:Old NES Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Bible Adventures - was this the game that had one level where it was dark and you had to carry the jar of fireflies around?

I have fond memories of playing that game...I might have to go find a ROM of it and fire it up in my emulator.

Re:Old NES Games

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually managed to beat Spiritual Warfare, which was not an easy task considering that instead of a battery-backed save system, you had to enter the longest password ever. I think it may have been intended as a trial of your faith. It wasn't just slightly non-linear, either. It gave you only the vaguest of clues where to go next, so you had to explore everywhere.

Re:Old NES Games

[nathanmace]

I hadd forgotten about those password. Now that I think of it, you are right. I had several games that "saved" by giving you a long password to enter. But Spirtual Warfare had the worst (longest) password of any of them.

Re:Old NES Games

[nathanmace]

Yep that is it. That game was hard.....

Simpsons...

[Reignking]

Don't forget Billy Graham's Bible Blasters, the only video game owned by the Flandersesess -- Convert the Heathen!

Re:Simpsons...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Billy Graham's Bible Blasters, the only video game owned by the Flandersesess -- Convert the Heathen!

Bart: "Got 'em!"
Tod: "No, you just winged him and made him a Unitarian."

Re:Simpsons...

[blighter]

Which scene also contains my favorite response to people who want to play when I'm playing a one-player game:

Rodd and Todd - "Can we play now, Bart?"

Bart - "You are playing. We're a team!"

Rodd and Todd - "Yay!!!"

Rise of the Triad

[HeaththeGreat]

Does anyone remember this mid-90s FPS? It had the hand of God as the ultimate weapon. Seems holy enough for me.

Re:Rise of the Triad

[uglysad]

It would chase the people down and disintegrate them and the whole time you hear yawning over your speakers. I loved that game. I always played as Ian Paul Freely. I.P Freely I wish i could find a copy now

Re:Rise of the Triad

[syynnapse]

Pretty sure it was called "Rise of the Triad" or Triads.

Re:Rise of the Triad

[Anonymous Coward]

Thus the appropriate title of GP "Rise of the Triad".

Re:Rise of the Triad

[chrish]

Speaking of the Hand of God, remember the absolutely horrible ending to the otherwise great Stephen King book, The Stand?

The miniseries with Gary Sinise was pretty decent, too.

Re:As a Christian...

[Meagermanx]

So what you're saying is- Wait. Okay. So basically all Christa- Nope. I can't do it. Too easy.

Escapism

[Hobbes828]

I would agree that this does seem to be a form of escapism. Being a Christian, and also somebody who has played a large variety of games, I do not see the video gaming world as being inherently satanic.

In fact I feel that the vast majority of games are relatively harmless, and the greatest harm it can do to Christians is not in the content but in the possiblity that kids will become obsessed with and immersed in video games at an unhealthy level, which I think is something that parents should be watching out for, whether they are Christians or not.

I find creating games like this is not really helping anyone because only the fanatically conservative would buy something like this, and cheesy stuff like this is the kind of fodder that the secular world loves to throw in our faces (see most of the posts on this topic).

Mod this post -1 Flamebait

[DesScorp]

This article was trollbait from the get-go. Considering the animosity towards people of faith here on slashdot, where any mention of religion or God is sure to bring out the worst in this crowd, this article was just asking for trouble. I think the editors wanted to have some fun at the expense of believers today, and so threw a piece of red meat to the crowd...

Re:Mod this post -1 Flamebait

[shmigget]

Yeah, the editors are out to get you. Btw, so is the Boogeyman, Evil Santa, and the minions of Wario. Paranoid much?

In all seriousness, this type of "look at how persecuted I am" routine is what really hurts your public image.

HWJF

[Anonymous Coward]

How would Jesus frag?

Re:HWJF

[DeltaSigma]

Double-Barrel shotgun. Any FPS-player knows this.

So...

[Sylver Dragon]

So, when do we get the hentai game based on Lot and his daughters?

Re:So...

[cyber0ne]

So, when do we get the hentai game based on Lot and his daughters?

I hope you don't also want to include the two men (angels, reportedly) who were in Lot's house while the townspeople outside demanded that they be let in to have sex with the men.

It could have a lot to do with the translation, but that's the general interpretation I've seen. Some tone it down by replacing "so we may have sex with them" with "so we may know them" but the carnal implications are definitely there.

Re:So...

[Sylver Dragon]

That might be a good starting point, but I was kind of thinking about later in the story, where Lot's daughters got him drunk, so they could have sex with him.

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, could someone point out where the story of Sodom says homosexuality is evil. I always got the impression that it was saying _hedonism_ is evil, which is something much more general.

Re:So...

[HanClinto]

Romans 1 and 2 possibly? It's not directly linked to Sodom, but it talks about the general fall and degeneration of man (of which Sodom is an example).

Re:So...

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, could someone point out where the story of Sodom says homosexuality is evil. I always got the impression that it was saying _hedonism_ is evil, which is something much more general.

You're correct. It's just been twisted to suit the desires of men, as has happened throughout history.

Really, if homosexuality were so important, it would be more than a footnote or two in the Bible.

fwiw

[HanClinto]

For a good Christian video game, check out Graceworks Interactive -- I'm really impressed with their game "Interactive Parables".

Depends on context...

[Shivetya]

Christ-like at the end times would be more violent than any first person shooter. Take the stories given in Revelations. Christ isn't going to pull any punches and will slaughter millions and millions of non-believers.

Remember one item, the term Christ-like is usually most attributed to people attempting to box in Christians. It is a term used to put Christians on the defensive.

Christ tells us to treat each other fairly. Christ taught us to love each other. However he is the final Judge and fair isn't going to enter into the picture.

So, put that shooter at the end times and see what happens. You could also put the shooter into the context where your not fighting people but instead fighting Hell. Also, who says you need a gun to have a FPS? Christ will slay with just the Word of God. How that would be adminstered by others acting in his stead is left to the imagination.

Re:Depends on context...

[KDR_11k]

You could also put the shooter into the context where your not fighting people but instead fighting Hell.

You mean like, Doom? I can swear, most fundamental Christians don't like that game...

Re:Depends on context...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's if you accept the one interpretation of Revelations that so many people don't even think about. It's an interpretation that was done a long time ago, and nobody bothers to question it, or research how it was derived, or anything about the interpreter.

Funny how many people can believe God is Love, yet can easily accept this God, who loves us all more than any parent could ever conceively love us, will willing and ruthlessly wipe all those who are not of the same faith as the believers. It's the "we're safe, we don't have to think about it, and God will punish (in one way or another) those that don't see what we do" point of view.

It must be nice to be able to tune out logic and reason, and not have to take responsibility for one's beliefs -- to just accept, without thought or question, what a book or someone else says is accurate. In doing so, one abdicates all need to question or think, and replaces that with a joy that can only be found when one is completely ignorant or unable to ask questions that they have been taught not to see.

Muslims have just as many reason to believe that the Koran is correct and Christians will not make it to heaven. Many believe that as firmly and sincerely as you believe what you do. They are as sure they are right and you are wrong as you believe they are wrong.

Yet those that are in such a mode of belief can have facts presented to them, and, if the facts cause them to even ask the slightest question of their beliefs (for example, written Chinese history goes back before 4004 BC, the supposed date of creation in Genesis), that they cannot accept or deal with such facts.

Haha, Ridiculous

[Paul Slocum]

Most of the games seem to just be a typical FPS with a bible or christian related scenario tagged on. Smart way to generate extra sales for a mediocre FPS! Check out the Scenario for "Ominous Horizons": 'Mainz Germany, 1455. Johannes Gutenberg, creator of the printing press, completed his great masterpiece; a printed Bible. Thus, a new era in human development would ensue where scribes were no longer needed to painstakingly hand copy manuscripts. Gutenberg could now create thousands of copies of the Bible to be distributed throughout the world, making the Word of God easily available to any who sought it. With his press destroyed, and the Bible stolen, a Paladin is called upon to once again free the world of evil and return the Bible to Gutenberg. You are that Paladin in Ominous Horizons: A Paladin's Calling.'

How about...

[Adelbert]

How about a Muslim themed game? Or a game based on Judaism? Sikhism? Buddhism? No?

Re:How about...

[cyber0ne]

How about a Muslim themed game? Or a game based on Judaism? Sikhism? Buddhism? No?

I guess I personally don't know enough about those religions to even imagine such a game, with the exception of ancient Judaism of course. But if it's diversity you're after, go for it. I know several Sikh teens whose parents would probably love to replace their GTA titles with a game that promotes their traditions.

Re:How about...

[JPelorat]

Have at it. You want em, you code em.

Re:How about...

[HanClinto]

Probably a troll, but I'll bite.

I thought that many of the FF games had a buddhist/new age theology behind them? I didn't think that there was any shortage of Buddhist games. There are several puzzle games that are made specifically for main-line Buddhism as a relaxation aide -- 3 minutes of Googling should bring up 2 or 3 of these.

There certainly are a fair number of mixed-bag "pagan" games, combining ideals from wicca, witchcraft, buddhism, and other new age "roll your own" religion. Ultima and other medieval RPG's seem to do this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a benefit to chanting "om om om" in UO at certain shrines?

As far as polytheism -- perhaps Black and White?

There's a fair number of Atheist games, GTA comes to mind for one embodying hedonistic ideals. (not criticizing, just noting. I happen to have really enjoyed playing GTA)

For Judaism, there are several games that love to play off of the classic "heaven vs. hell" war (without dealing with the person of Jesus as Christ). While I doubt Jews would want to play the games, many things are spun off of warped Judaic theology. Things that come to mind for this are Spawn (comic book and movie, not really a game), the Diablo series, and many other books/movies such as the "His Dark Materials" series and that one recent movie with Keanu Reeves in it -- the name eludes me atm.

As far as blatantly satanic games, you don't have to look too far for those. :)

Respectfully,
clint

Re:How about...

[XxtraLarGe]

How about a Muslim themed game?

Like this?

Re:How about...

[XxtraLarGe]

Direct Link

Re:How about...

[myheroBobHope]

Buddhism isn't about relaxation... nor do any final fantasy games really deal with it (i haven't played ALL the FF games, but I have a general idea)... seeing as how Buddhism is pretty much against any violence other than self defense, Pre-emptive strikes would be disallowed... Look up the tenants of Buddhism (just the four noble truths and the eightfold path)... Those can be emulated in a video game, but it wouldn't be very interesting, seeing as how you have to transcend desire to reach enlightenment... Thus your desire to advance in the game would be self defeating... Oh well!

Re:How about...

[c0bw3b]

For Judaism, there are several games that love to play off of the classic "heaven vs. hell" war

I think you have Judaism confused with something else. Perhaps Manicheanism?

Re:How about...

[c0bw3b]

FF seemed a lot more influenced by Shinto, with it's environmentalist themes and the like. But "influenced by" and "based on the theology of" are two very different things.

Re:How about...

[snorklewacker]

Pre-emptive strikes would be disallowed.

Yunno ... if the game mechanics prevent you from performing any "forbidden" actions, then what's the point? Since there's no free will, neither is there any need for any guiding principles like the eightfold path or the ten commandments or the new covenant at all. Compliance would just be automatic -- it's not like your heart needs to be commanded to beat.

I tried aiming this sort of argument at the fundamentalists who want to impose their religion as political governance, but found it fairly useless, as it's an intellectual argument aimed at a force powered by blind ignorance and stupidity. You can't put out a fire with a sword.

Re:How about...

[HanClinto]

Good read! Thanks for the link!

Manicheanism seems to be a dualistic religion that recognizes Judaistic vocabulary? From the article:
"The most striking principle of Manichee theology is its dualism. The universe is considered a battlefield for control between an evil material god, and a good spiritual god. Christians recognized the evil god in Satan but could not accept the idea that Satan had as much power as God. Christians held that Satan, unlike God, is a created being. The term Manichaeistic is often used to describe any religion with a similar concept of struggle between good and evil."

*shrug*. I suppose I was thinking of the storyline in Diablo, where there are angels and demons whose names are mentioned in the books of the Old Testament, and the "fall of Lucifer" holds different roles in various storylines. Perhaps one might call it Manicheanism, but others might call it based off of Judeo-Christian thought.

I recognize none of these games that I mentioned exactly have a whole lot of Jewish tradition in them -- all I was saying is that these games use the vocabulary and the characters found in Judaism's history. Unless you can tell me another religion where Michael is an archangel and Lucifer is a demon?

Re:How about...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, GTA is christian. Remember GTA 2, where you have to walk into a church (Jesus Saves!) to save your game.

It cost a few thousand dollars though, so I'm no so sure what to make of that. Maybe a reference to the old Catholic tradition of selling absolutions.

I don't know any actually Satanic games... doesn't sound like fun - being a minion of Satan and beating up weak, pacifist Christians would get pretty boring. Plenty of atheism-vs-satanism games where you're the atheist though, Doom etc...

Re:How about...

[Adelbert]

I think the example from the Telegraph is a very good parallel.

For a start, it only appeals to the most fundamentalist Muslims. Muslims who believe in, you know, the teachings of the Qu'ran would no doubt be appalled by the ideas portreyed within it.

Personally, I can see no attraction in any religious game except to either consolidate one's own beliefs or convert the infidels.

Its one thing to have a Christian character within a game, but to 'Glorifying God Through Interactive Media' seems a bit extreme.

I'm all for people's individual right to believe whatever the hell they want to, but to impress their belief systems on others is irrefutably horrible.

Re:How about...

[HanClinto]

Ah, yes. Thankyou. I think that both you and c0bw3b corrected me well regarding this one (especially with c0bw3b's remark regarding Shinto).

I spent a few minutes Googling, and here are some links showing the kinds of things I am thinking about:

• Wild Divine (which has been reviewed on Slashdot)
• Mindgames (From the website: Our focus on demonstration is designed to challenge organisations to not only think of how they might use our ideas in their products but also to imagine how their products can reach out and change the lives of everyone in a positive way. We believe that technology should be designed to facilitate us building a more constructive humanity.) They seem like a cool group, and like they're doing some really neat research. I'm not saying they are bad, I'm just saying that these things could easily be combined with new age philosophy.
• Tranquility This is pretty close to the game that I was thinking of, but I'm not sure if it's it. Similar note to the above item.

Please note that I'm not saying that "meditation is bad" or things like that -- I'm definately not saying that. Relaxation is a very good thing, however I've just seen a lot of this stuff combined with pantheistic theology as a way to "transcend to higher consciousness". I'm just calling it as I see it, and I'm just saying that there are video games with a lot of new-age theology underneath them out there.

Oh yeah, almost forgot about Rag Doll Kung Fu. *VERY* cool looking game, definately "religious", definately *not* "Christian". :) Not all games need to be Christian -- the grandparent was asking for non-Christian religious games, and I'm pointing him in that direction.

Re:How about...

[c0bw3b]

Unless you can tell me another religion where Michael is an archangel and Lucifer is a demon?

Well, Christianity comes to mind immediately there. Basically the point I was trying to make here is that the Jewish tradition doesn't so much focus on the war between heaven and hell. That dualistic idea came into Christianity via various other sycretisms around the turn of the millenium.

Re:How about...

[HanClinto]

the Jewish tradition doesn't so much focus on the war between heaven and hell. That dualistic idea came into Christianity via various other sycretisms around the turn of the millenium.

Hrm. Well I'd agree with you regarding the "[ongoing] war between heaven and hell", but the dialogue of Satan's struggle for the souls of men is as old as the book of Job (read the first part of this if you haven't already -- though I'm guessing you have).

And since Christianity has its roots in Judaism (I.E. Jesus was a practicing Jew), I was counting Judeo/Christian history to be synonymous (at least as far as pre-Jesus times go).

Re:How about...

[wed128]

The Keanu movie was called Constantine, and made me want to start smoking and reading the bible the minute I left the theatre.

Re:How about...

[myheroBobHope]

You are correct, about the game mechanics not eliminating forbidden action. I had a lapse. Buddhism is a path. Thus no game could be "buddhist", it could only follow buddhist philosophy... but even that would be in a vague, general sense.

Re:How about...

[c0bw3b]

I don't really think Job is as much about Satan's struggle for mens souls as it is about divine punishment in this life, something fairly Jewish in concept. The whole salvation and hell dichotomy I just don't really see so much in the jewish faith.. Sin and punishment obviously are all over the place in the bible, but in the jewish tradition these are things that are punished during ones lifetime, or during the lifetimes of ones descendants.. i.e. in the material world. But then Job is a really difficult book, so I could be wrong.

As far as the whole judeo/christian thing goes, yeah I've heard it said that pretty much Jesus was preaching for the reformation of jewish law, and that pretty much the only people that should logically be christian are the descendants of messianic jews. The rest of us should still be pagans, heh.

What the hell were we talking about again? heehee.

Re:How about...

[brjndr]

Hitman 2 had Sikhs in it. You pretended to be one, went to their holy temple in India, You then shoot the 'terrorists', who are wearing turbans.

Sikh groups asked Eidos to change the game, and they actually did. I think there are still a few of the original copies floating around.

Re:How about...

[faloi]

I'm all for people's individual right to believe whatever the hell they want to, but to impress their belief systems on others is irrefutably horrible.

Isn't that what happens in a capatilist system? If you don't want to play "Guns 4 God" or whatever craptastic spin-off game is likely to come from it, don't buy it. I pass games I don't buy all the time, so I tend to stay insulated from the really bad games...

Re:How about...

[HanClinto]

I don't really think Job is as much about Satan's struggle for mens souls as it is about divine punishment in this life, something fairly Jewish in concept.
Okay, I didn't mean to imply that that's what I thought the whole book of Job was about. You said that you didn't see the fight between Heaven and Hell a focused topic until 1000 AD or so, and that there wasn't a whole lot of basis for it in Judaic theology. I replied that most of the basis for these storylines is in the Old Testament, and was giving you one fairly clear example. I don't have time atm to dig through the books of prophecy. :)

Yes, I agree with you that the book of Job is a difficult book, and that the point of it is not the battle for Job's soul, but rather deals with much larger issues such as the sovereignty of a Creator God.

Sin and punishment obviously are all over the place in the bible, but in the jewish tradition these are things that are punished during ones lifetime, or during the lifetimes of ones descendants.. i.e. in the material world.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of this before, but I suppose that makes sense. The Davidic psalms would be a good example of this (regarding punishment of his enemies). Then again, the concept of being "carried to Abraham's bosom" and there being a heaven/hell afterlife doesn't seem totally unfamiliar in Old Testament teachings.

yeah I've heard it said that pretty much Jesus was preaching for the reformation of jewish law, and that pretty much the only people that should logically be christian are the descendants of messianic jews.
But even the dogs may eat the crumbs that fall from the children's table. :)
And the New Testament isn't the first place where we find God commanding people to be focused on the circumcision of the heart, this is also in the old testament prophets. Not so much a reformation of Jewish law, but rather a truer understanding of the law.

What the hell were we talking about again? heehee. hah -- quite true. :) Well it's been fun talking with you. :) Thanks for the good brain-working discussion.

Re:How about...

[EvilIdler]

Or how about satanic games, for that matter? I'd love to see some
*really* "evil" games >:)

Down with the Devil!

Murder for Christ!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

End a life, like Jesus commands.

Pop Music

[Anonymous Coward]

Heres how you make a christian rock album:

Take a standard pop album and change the word "baby" to "Jesus"

Re:Pop Music

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you translate "fuck all them skanky bitches"? Slashdot is all about inclusiveness and political correctness, you know.

I don't think that's the idea

[xilmaril]

I think these companies want to sell games to christians, not convert the masses to christianity. They probably want to actually make money, after all, and I really think that's where the market is.

Doom, Quake...

[dacarr]

Considering some of the imagery in the bible about hunting demons, games such as Doom, Quake, Redneck Rampage, Half Life, etc. don't really miss the mark all that much - though with the possible exception of Redneck Rampage, it's not clear as to whether your character is Christian.

That said, both Doom and Quake are flexible, so in lieu of reinventing the wheel, one can just put a new wheel in, as it were, and start playing around with imagery - that is to say, put in your own characters and equipment. See the documentation on both games for customization - Doom uses WADs, Quake uses something else I think.

Re:Doom, Quake...

[satoshi1]

Doom 1 and 2, WADs. Quake 1, paks. Quake 2, pk2s. Quake3, pk3s. Doom 3, pk4s.

Re:Doom, Quake...

[dacarr]

I'd mod you +1 informative, but, well.... =^_^=

Re:Doom, Quake...

[Jakeypants]

"...though with the possible exception of Redneck Rampage, it's not clear as to whether your character is Christian."

Of course he's a Christian, the game is called Redneck Rampage.

-5, Flamebait

The original DOOM series.

[Stoutlimb]

The more you kill, the further you descend into the pits of hell. That sounds like a pretty good faith-based lesson for people. Go play Doom.

Bork!

Wha-wha-wha?

[gameboyhippo]

You mean /. has an article that views Christianity in a positive light!??? Isn't that against the rules? After all today we wake up and see how anybody who thinks that the world was intelligently designed is obviously stupid.

Anyway, I've been a fan of Christian Rock music for a long time. In fact, it was Christian Rock that proved to me that Christianity is not boring. As a kid growing up in a Non-Christian home, I thought that Christianity was all about watching a boring channel on TV listening to boring music. Then I was exposed to bands such as Audio Adrenaline, the Newsboys, and dc Talk. It really changed my perspective.

Now, as a Christian, I'm a huge fan of such bands as Disciple, Thousand Foot Krutch, and toby Mac. If you're not a Christian you should check it out anyway. I mean after all you listen to POD, don't you?

Re:Wha-wha-wha?

[darthtrevino]

I don't know man. I listened to Christian music exclusively for a few months. It was a little bit too much for me. Or perhaps to be more precise too little.

The big problem with the Christian subculture is that it is very ivory-toweristic. Meaning that when I was in youth group in high school, we were discouraged from listening to non-christian music, which means "not from a Christian label". Instead of training ourselves to discerns what's right and wrong in the world and actively engage it, we wall ourselves into our own world and make it sinful to engage with anything else.

That's just bad reasoning and you'll find it all over American Christianity, and it's a big reason I don't go to Christian bookstores anymore. I get this feeling that there are some people at the top making big bucks by building this subculture of isolationism and labeling all secular media as evil.

And honestly most Christian music sounds tripe and disingenuine to me. (not all, just most).

...So I've been listening to alot of U2 lately.

Re:Wha-wha-wha?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now, as a Christian, I'm a huge fan of such bands as Disciple, Thousand Foot Krutch, and toby Mac. If you're not a Christian you should check it out anyway. I mean after all you listen to POD, don't you?"

Uh, no? I swear to something, I'd like to *kill* the youth of the nation, just because of that song. I'll just get back to my Velvet Acid Christ, Voltaire, and other heretical musicians now.

Re:Wha-wha-wha?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Tool! New album soon! Hail Satan!

Re:Wha-wha-wha?

[mink]

What no Petra? Kids these days...

Good News

[tealtalon]

When they have their own games to play they can stop trying to tame the rest of them down to feed to their sheltered children. Matter of fact, they should start their own satelite company. Instead of direct tv or dish, GOD TV. YES! Then they don't have to sensor everyone elses television. Don't forget movie rentals. It will be just like blockbuster, but without that pesky SATANIC Harry Potter to poison little Jimmy's mind with witchcraft. The posibilities are endless. The days of evangelicals craming shit down my throat are limited...

/me wakes up

Go ahead...mod it offtopic

Game titles

[subl33t]

What would be some good Christian game titles?

Halo - oops already done

GTA Jerusalem - (Grander then Thou Apostle) in which you tool around the holy land killing Legionaires (police) and prostitutes. Unfortunately it will be panned by non-Christian game critics as too violent.

Jaded Empire - You're a highly disciplined monk wandering the agnostic land trying to convert or destroy non-beleivers.

Holy Ghost Recon - You play a crack Judean People's Front insurgent agent.

this is too easy...

Crimson Skies: High Road to Revelation
Silent Hell
God of War

I have only two words to say about this...

[b1t r0t]

Wisdom Tree

Kick Ass=Christian

[StingRayGun]

Well, as a pretty devout and even hard line Christain I think this idea SUCKS. I don't like the popularized Bush type of Chistianity and I think this easily falls into that catagory.

From a Bible standpoint everything that is really awesome glorifies God. As a future game developer (it probably takes a religious nut job to have enough hope to think that I can get into the games industry) I will focus on making the most kick ass, intelligent and fun games possible. Sticking a Christian sticker on something doesn't make it Godly (please no Socratic dialogs on what is Holy please) or holy or anything. If it can't compete with other games then to me, it is actually LESS Godly then let's say, UT2004.

Please, leave God's name out of it. Just make something that is AWESOME. That goes for music, for movies and whatever.

(A good example of this idea is this: http://www.primermovie.com/ It's one of the best sci fi movies in a decade, mad by a Christian guy but nowhere does it say THIS IS A CHRISTIAN MOVIE anywhere on it. It's just a great film.)

Re:Kick Ass=Christian

[ashground]

Out of the blue, I took your recommendation and rented Primer this evening... Wow, no kidding, great film. It should be also mentioned that the lead actor also wrote, directed, and scored the entire film for $7,000 -- and took home Best Drama at Sundance last year.

Re:Kick Ass=Christian

[StingRayGun]

Cool. At least on person in the world values my opinion!

Not about conversion

[bluGill]

These games are not about converting you to my religion, they are about giving me a passtime that doesn't violate all the principals of my religion.

My religion tells everyone not to watch (or own) a TV. There is nothing evil about a electron gun in a vacuum tube exciting a few phosphors (substitute your technology of choice). What is evil is what it is used for. Nothing is wrong with using a TV so you can take college classes from someone on a different continent. There is something wrong when you use TV to show sex, violence, and so on. (I picked two extremes, you have to decide where the dividing line is between them - if you even agree sex and violence is evil).

Video games are not evil of themselves. They can teach puzzle solving skills. A game of pac-man once a week has no value, but it isn't evil. (addiction to pac-man is evil, but that isn't the fault of the game itself) However most of the popular games go far beyond the line.

I'm not sure I agree that christian games are the solution to the problem. However the problem being solved isn't a reach out to non-Christians, it is a lack of things Christians can do.

Re:Not about conversion

[DAldredge]

Just curious, but what religion are you?

Re:Not about conversion

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a shot in the dark, but I'd guess batshit whacko judgementalism? Or maybe just hardline holier than thou?

Re:Not about conversion

[Kosi]

Nothing is wrong with using a TV so you can take college classes from someone on a different continent. There is something wrong when you use TV to show sex,

College classes are fine, you can learn something there. Sex is also fine, it's fun and can make babies. Why should one thing be ok to show on TV, and the other not?

Re:Not about conversion

[Meagermanx]

I'm with Kosi on this one, man. I could live with violence being evil, but sex? That's like saying carbohydrates are evil. You might not like 'em, but some of us love the occaisonal doughnut. Er, bad analogy.

Re:Not about conversion

[bluGill]

This is a statement of my morals. It generally is true of society in the US (though there are large exceptions).

Obviously you have to make your own judgments. Since TV in general has made a choice that conflicts with my choice, I choose in turn to not own one.

Re:Not about conversion

[scot4875]

It generally is true of society in the US (though there are large exceptions).

Actually, most of the US population is mature and rational enough about sex to realize that the whole 'sex is evil' mantra is bullshit.

Using sex in advertising is certainly unscrupulous, but even I (with my vehement hatred of advertising in general) wouldn't go so far as to call it evil.

You choose to believe that sex is evil and miss out on the *entire point* of your existance. But when you get extremely frustrated with your life and can't stop your envy of those people around you who do enjoy sex, please remember that it's your choice.

This is OT anyway. Religious videogames have always been trash. They're within a half-step above or below movie tie-in games like Monsters Inc. There was a company called Wisdom Tree back in the 80s that made religious NES games that absolutely sucked.

--Jeremy

You're mistaken

[Fished]

If you read carefully in a good translation, or in the Greek, you will discover that he didn't drive the salesmen, but their stock. Take a look at Yoder's The Politics of Jesus for a much better understanding of who Jesus really is as opposed to the guy that the religious right and religious left want to expropriate for their agenda.

Re:You're mistaken

[JonathanBoyd]

If you read carefully in a good translation, or in the Greek, you will discover that he didn't drive the salesmen, but their stock.

I've got the Greek here and in Mark 11, it says that he began to drive out the ones selling and the ones buying in the temple. He also overturned the tables of the money changers and the chairs of the people selling the doves, so maybe that's what is confusing you.

Take a look at Yoder's The Politics of Jesus for a much better understanding of who Jesus really is as opposed to the guy that the religious right and religious left want to expropriate for their agenda.

Alternatively, reading the Bible should make it fairly clear that his most preached message was 'repent and believe.'

Re:You're mistaken

[Fished]

Mark 11 is distinctly ambiguous - the Greek word "drive" leaves open the question of physical force. (The word in this case is EKBALLW, which means literally to 'throw out'. In the words of a good Greek Lexicon, Louw Nida, EKBALLW has as one meaning " to cause to go out or leave, often, but not always, involving force" (LN 15.44))

Take a look, instead, at Jn 2.13-16 (here in the NRSV):

The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 He told those who were selling the doves, "Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father's house a marketplace!"

This is the most detailed account we have of the incident, and it makes it quite clear that he drove out the livestock, but did NOT use physical force against the people.

Re:You're mistaken

[JonathanBoyd]

Actually, it doesn't explicitly say he didn't use force.

Look at it this way: a guy has just come up to you, driven off your livestock with a whip, overturned your tables and thrown your money to the ground. Then he tells you in no uncertain terms to get out. Even if he's not physically grabbing you and throwing you out, there's an undeniable threat that you're going to be moving, whether you want to or not. I would count that as physical force.

Given the number of times that Jesus appears in the OT, in the guise of the messenger or angel of the LORD to execute judgement or in the NT in Revelation as the judge, it doesn't seem terribly unreasonable to say that he is physically bringing about a limited form of judgement on these people.

Simple answer

[Pluvius]

Is there a place amid the witches, warlocks and diabolical monsters for Christian video games?

No. Why? Because unlike Christian music, Christian video games actually have to compete against stuff that's good.

Rob

Re:Simple answer

[ultramk]

Not really. Remember, you're not selling to the kids, you're selling it to the parents: it doesn't matter if it sucks. They don't have to play it.

Remember: christian pop/rock is driven by parents who won't let their kids listen to anything else. Seriously.

Bribe a couple of televangelists to pitch it, and you're set. Hell, grandmas will buy it for christmas gifts.

Poor kids.

Chex Cereal had FPS, why not Christians ...

[AHumbleOpinion]

Chex cereal had an FPS for kids, ChexQuest, based on Doom. CDs were in the boxes of cereal. When you "shot" a creature it was not killed, it was teleported back to it's homeworld, or something like that.

Re:Chex Cereal had FPS, why not Christians ...

[Blakey Rat]

Wow. I have to say that this is the first time I have ever seen Christianity advised to follow the example of Chex cereal.

Re:Chex Cereal had FPS, why not Christians ...

[Joe the Lesser]

Most of life becomes easier if you just relax and accept Chex as the true way.

As a Chexite, I think it's about time Christians opened their arms to different cultures and religions.

Re:Chex Cereal had FPS, why not Christians ...

[snuf23]

On the Super Nintendo the Christian developer Wisdom Tree released: Super 3D Noah's Ark which was an FPS built on the Castle Wolfenstein 3D engine. In the game you had to feed the angry animals by shooting food at them with your slingshot. They would "go to sleep" when they got full. Of course if you didn't feed them in time they would kick your righteous ass just a soundly as the gestapo Wolfenstein.
A worty one of the emulators. Highly entertaining for about 5 minutes.

Here's an idea..

[Anonymous Coward]

Want a divorce, but the church won't allow it? Create your own.

Wait.

You've got Judaism confused with another religion

[dtolman]

For Judaism, there are several games that love to play off of the classic "heaven vs. hell" war (without dealing with the person of Jesus as Christ). While I doubt Jews would want to play the games, many things are spun off of warped Judaic theology. Things that come to mind for this are Spawn (comic book and movie, not really a game), the Diablo series, and many other books/movies such as the "His Dark Materials" series and that one recent movie with Keanu Reeves in it -- the name eludes me atm.

While Dualism is a fascinating concept - its not a Jewish one... In the Jewish world view Satan is at worst (best?), a down-on-his-luck Prosecutor (its hard to win cases when your opponent is both Judge, and Defense Attorney). And there is no hell. At least not in a form recognizable to those familiar with the Christian after-life...

Jesus Christ, super commando

[FictionPimp]

So that's why this is in the works.

http://jesus.evilx.com/

Its a shame it never actually got made.

Re:As a Christian...

[Anonymous Coward]

What? No SimChurch or Evangelist Tycoon? :P

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[HanClinto]

Then what religion is that? I recognized that "While I doubt Jews would want to play the games, many things are spun off of warped Judaic theology."

I'm not talking about just dualism -- that's present in many religions. I'm talking about the war between Heaven and Hell using Judeo/Christian vocabulary. I believe I also answered your question here.

In Spawn, there is certainly a Hell. In Diablo and also in Doom. Though I see your point in games like Quake -- that seems to have the Satan-type character without the location of Hell.

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[dtolman]

OK - I can see you're really confused here - the problem isn't just with Satan/Lucifer - its with the idea of Hell itself. It just isn't in Judaism... Demons and Angels themselves are just messengers for God

So while the idea of supernatural forces with independent spirits are cool for RPG's - these are really Christian or pagan worldviews. Don't feel bad - a lot of writers like to throw Judeo-Christian around in popular writings, when they really mean Christian or Early Christian - it ends up confusing most of the general public about what beliefs Jews of that period actually held...

Passion of the Christ RTS

[DeVryGuy23]

Mission Objectives: -Evade the Romans -Heal the Lame -Jesus must survive

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[HanClinto]

aaah. Okay. That makes sense. Sorry for my confusion, and thanks for the clarification. I was unaware that the concept of hell wasn't in traditional Judaic thought.

Thanks.

Maybe it is time...

[cicatrix1]

Yeah, maybe it's about time we made a game about the crusades! You could be this christian knight and go around slaughtering innocent people because they don't believe in your God! Or maybe you could have a game about how christians with faith on their side start some war or another!

Re:As a Christian...

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if I get to smite people :)

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[HanClinto]

Sorry for the double-reply, but I just remembered the concept of Sheol.

So what is Sheol all about then? Is it just a sort of "place of the dead" then? King David spoke often of his soul descending to Sheol as being a bad thing.

Super Noah's Ark 3D

[YowzaTheYuzzum]

You're thinking of Super Noah's Ark 3D. It was a clone of Wolfenstein 3D for the SNES, but with altered graphics and sound (obviously). If I recall correctly, you had to shoot pellets of food at the animals.

They may have been a PC version too...

Odd

[Anonymous Coward]

I am "totally" a Christian, but I can't stand that Christian pop/rock/hiphop. I mean it's great that they're writing music to worship God and all, but the music... it SUCKS.

That's not to say all Christian music is bad... There's some good Christian ska out there...

Re:Odd

[mink]

And old scholl as it is, Petra. After all God gave rock and roll to you.

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[dtolman]

Well... OK - you got me - there is no "hell" in Judaism is a very simplistic answer. But its still pretty accurate.

It really boils down to this - Judaism, in contrast to almost every other major (or minor) religion out there - has a very weak concept of the afterlife. There really isn't a formal idea of what happens after death - and the ideas that are out there are fairly shallow - so even the concepts that resemble hell are very very simplistic - and lack the elaborate mythology that most religions have...So simultaneously you could get make a case in Judaism in believing that any of these things are possible after death to bad people:

-If your a denier of God and a really bad person, your soul is sent to Hell. Welcome to ultimate heat and lots o' pain.

-your soul is sent down to a place called Sheol, where you stand around (bored?) with lots of other souls. The really bad souls are punished or something. It kinda resembles Greek Hades. Sorta.

-your soul is sent to a place where your soul is cleansed for up to a year. It may be unpleasant.

The 3rd option is usually the accepted version of the afterlife for less than pure souls in modern rabbinic Judaism - the 2nd one was popular among some sects during ancient times. The 1st one was never really formalized - it may have been stolen from other religions in the area. I've heard other concepts of what could happen to bad souls (reincarnation, long review of your life - followed by review of what you could have accomplished if you hadn't screwed up, annhilation). Either way - they aren't really fleshed out - at least, not enough where you could write fiction, let alone a game about it.

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[HanClinto]

Okay, cool. That makes a lot of sense. Again, thanks for the clarification.

Now there was also the place of burning -- Gehenna? But I think that's a Greek word, so while I'm sure it was familiar to Jews around Jesus' time (especially with the translation of the scriptures to the Masoretic Text), I guess you're saying that it might not have been mainline theology?

Thanks again! Cheers. :)

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[HanClinto]

Sorry. Translation *from* the Masoretic Text *to* the Septuagint. I always get those two mixed up.

StepMania

[tepples]

You could try to leverage some of that Christian music into a video game. Grab StepMania and make some simfiles with music by ZOEgirl and other popular Christian artists.

I'm not the first to think of Dance Dance Resurrection.

ZPC from Zombie let you be Jesus

[oscarwp]

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=4133 ZPC was a great game, perhaps the best Mac FPS after Marathon 1 + 2. The style is still cool today. And you got to be jesus and use your chi to free the oppressed (or put them out of their misery).

Re:Depends on context...(OT)

[FiloEleven]

That's one of the more frightening posts I've read on Slashdot. You do realize that the point of Revelation (singular, not plural) was not to give a play-by-play of the End Times, but rather to give Christians at the time hope for the future, as their present wasn't so good? Metaphor plays a huge role in the book, which is natural since it's a transcription of a vision. Visions are rarely taken at face value in the rest of the Bible, so why should this one be different? Or will Christ truly have a sword sticking out of his mouth, too?

>Christ isn't going to pull any punches and will slaughter millions and millions of non-believers.

I would like to know how you can reconcile the idea of an all-good all-loving God who individually created each person on this planet and cared enough to die for them and your statement about his slaughtering of those selfsame people. This inconsistency alone should give you a clue that something about your beliefs doesn't line up.

>Christ tells us to treat each other fairly. Christ taught us to love each other. However he is the final Judge and fair isn't going to enter into the picture.

If I were not a Christian reading this, the statement above would give me even less of a reason to listen to those who are. Why would I want to follow a god who acts as a final judge and throws fairness out the window? You seem to be referring to the God of Chaos or something...

I realize this is supposed to be about games, but statements like those in your post reflect exactly what's wrong with Christians today - Christ taught a doctrine of love and we've replaced it with bigotry, exclusivism, and hate.

I can handle the ridicule and mockery that the Slashdot crowd heaps upon Christians because I know that most of it doesn't apply to me. What I can't handle is other Christians acting out the horrible caricatures that they are continually compared to.

Please revisit the Gospels and concentrate on Jesus' teachings. They're the most central to the faith, and yet they always seem to be overshadowed by a lust for death and self-righteousness.

Matthew 10:32-36

[DrunkenTerror]

(bold denotes Jesus speaking)

32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

36 "A man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

Link.

You don't know jack about history

[kosamae]

For starters, the church did not divide when Rome fell, in fact, there was a long period of time after the fall of the Western Empire that the church stayed united (there were 4 patriarchs- Constantinople, Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria)
The Great Schism came much later than the fall of Rome.
Besides that, most of the Crusaders weren't practicing Christians, they were just mercenaries out to get themselves a free pass into heaven (Read Anna Comnena's "Alexiad").
Furthermore, Rome did not want the crusaders to sack Constantinople, they did that to pay their debt to Venice, because Venice provided the crusaders transport into Palestine (only they never did, in the 4th crusade, because they stopped in Asia Minor).

Re:You don't know jack about history

[DavidTC]

Um, no. I didn't say anything about the Great Schism at all. Your entire complaint seems to be the idea I was somehow talking about that, and I didn't even mention it.

'The Church divided itself in half' is a perfectly accurate way of describing the way the church set itself up with Rome and Constantinople. Yes, in theory, it had already divided itself up with Antioch and Alexandria, and later Jerusalem, but I don't see how that's incredibly relevent unless you want to quibble about 'half'. Antioch and Alexandria didn't play an important role at all, whereas by the time fo the Fourth Crusade, Rome had long fallen and the Byzantian empire was being run from (duh) Constantinople.

Constantinople was a seperate yet equal part of the Catholic Church, even with the weirdness about them excommunicating each other in 1054. (Look, I can mention the Great Schism if I want.)

And I don't know why the hell you're talking about what they 'wanted' to do...they did sack Constantinople, and that's all I said.

Potential

[Bongo Bill]

I say go for it. Religion had so much potential for good stories and intuitive gameplay that I'm surprised it's gone untapped as long as it has. Maybe it's the unwritten rule that religious popular media have to be a sort of propaganda for their faith, rather than actually making something interesting out of it, I don't know. Nobody likes to play a condescending sales pitch or an evangelistic circle-jerk.

Take something out of Acts, for instance. Go around as Paul, talk to people and stuff. Make it a strategy game or something. Nice and slow-paced, let the story sink in.

For the action games, set it in Revelation. You're just some angel and they send you on missions and you get to blow shit up with divine fury rather than conventional explosives. Or maybe you're Michael and you get in a huge fight with this dragon that just won't die. Imagine the special effects - can any studio depict an amphibious creature with seven blasphemous heads and ten crowned horns and the body of a leopart and feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion, without making it look ridiculous?

There's no need to limit it to Christianity, either. Take Norse legend - pick a god, play out the story. Wanna be Odin and try to satisfy your undying thirst for knowledge? Go ahead! Wanna be Thor and pick a fight with the Frost Giant? Sure! Whatever you want!

I'd buy those games if they can keep the evangelism down.

Simpsons Did it

[Timberwolf0122]

In the episode where maud flanders is killed off bart is playing a christian game on Rod and Todd flanders PS2. "Look out a mormon!" "Alright got him!" "nah, you just winged him and made him a unitarian" -- Second Comming RELOAD RELOAD! --

Re:You've got Judaism confused with another religi

[dtolman]

Gehenna is the place of burning. Its probably what they called hell, 2000 years ago.

We're all forgetting an older PC title. . .

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

Catachumen was the name of the game. I think it was set in roman times and you ran around with the massive sword, and you struck down roman troops and homeless people with the "power of the almighty".
Unfortunately, Quake 2 came out around that time so the other FPS games took a backseat to it.

Seriously, go and download the demo and laugh your ass off at the "Christian video game market."

The Ultimate Market

[popo]

Face it: The Religious Right is *the* ultimate market. I mean this both politically and comercially -- there is no easier market to sell to.

First off, the communications channels in organized religion are second to none. No other community of this size has such smoothly functioning internal communications regarding brand, product favorites and traction.

Secondly, they are *by definition* non-critical of all things "faith related". (The entire definition of "Faith" is belief without criticism). The Church discourages criticism and independent thought -- as it always has. Products which appeal to core beliefs benefit from swift, non-critical product acceptance.

Thirdly, religious institutions are increasingly commercial -- which means both distribution and marketing channels are increasingly bundled with traditional teaching, messaging and outreach programs.

Religious video games are a sure thing. Religious anything is a sure thing.

Re:The Ultimate Market

[zaxer]

Or you could just have biased views about Christianity.

Faith is NOT belief without criticism. It is belief in something that cannot be proven, but that you believe AND that resists all logical attacks against it. It is very much belief WITH criticism.

Examples? Try reading C.S. Lewis. He wrote thousands of pages purely on the logical aspects of Christianity. He's not perfect, but there's lots of valid analysis of Christianity.

Or just try walking in on a good Bible Study. People spend 2-3 hours every week carefully analyzing the Bible, interpreting its message, deciding if/how it is relevant in today's society.

I have not yet met a Christian who has never doubted their faith - just about every person has, but because Christianity IS valid, they have all ultimately come to that conclusion.

Finally, you make yet another sweeping generalization when you say religious institutions are increasingly commercial. Christian charities are mostly completely separate from Christian for-profit companies, who are rarely actually supported by a church. (a good example is Christian music. Everyone I know has different preferences - no church would support one band!)

Re:The Ultimate Market

[popo]

Ok.. criticise this:

Creation.

Re:The Ultimate Market

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair: I don't have a dim view of Christianity.

I think all religious people are equally uneducated.

I had this arguement once

[phorm]

I had a big arguement once with a very Christian friends in regards to music that was labelled "Christian" Vs that which just had a theme based around many "faith" values.

There are quite a few games, many RPG's in fact, that deal with moral issues that fall close to religion. You don't have to say "This game is Christian" and have a character who kneels down and sings a hymn after every battle... how about more games that are just in line with the values that society seems to be losing?

Re:I had this arguement once

[StingRayGun]

Tactics Ogre (GBA) is a fine example of this. Faith themed but not preachy... damn fine game too.

Re:Depends on context...(OT)

[JonathanBoyd]

That's one of the more frightening posts I've read on Slashdot. You do realize that the point of Revelation (singular, not plural) was not to give a play-by-play of the End Times, but rather to give Christians at the time hope for the future, as their present wasn't so good? Metaphor plays a huge role in the book, which is natural since it's a transcription of a vision. Visions are rarely taken at face value in the rest of the Bible, so why should this one be different? Or will Christ truly have a sword sticking out of his mouth, too?

I was about to post something similar to that, but you beat me to it.

I would like to know how you can reconcile the idea of an all-good all-loving God who individually created each person on this planet and cared enough to die for them and your statement about his slaughtering of those selfsame people. This inconsistency alone should give you a clue that something about your beliefs doesn't line up.

The Bible is very clear that God is just and that Christ will return to judge the world fairly. It's also very clear that the required standard is one no-one can live up to, so the just response is to throw everyone into Hell. But, like you said, God is all-loving, so how do you reconcile the requirement that justice be satisfied, with God's love? Again, you've given the answer by talking about the cross, but the Bible is pretty clear that not everyone is going to be saved by it. It's pretty clear in Revelation that there is going to be a vast multitude saved, but also a lot of people who reject Jesus and consequently aren't saved. At the end of the day, no-one deserves to be saved; everyone deserves to go to Hell. It's only God's grace and leading some to repent and believe in his Son that means anyone at all will be saved.

If I were not a Christian reading this, the statement above would give me even less of a reason to listen to those who are. Why would I want to follow a god who acts as a final judge and throws fairness out the window? You seem to be referring to the God of Chaos or something...

I was goign to haul him up on this point as well. The idea of God being unfair is ridiculous and pretty insulting to God. Revelation 20 makes it very clear that God will judge on the basis of all the evidence and give a fair judgement i.e. guilty if not trusting in Jesus, innocent if Jesus has already paid the price for you.

I realize this is supposed to be about games, but statements like those in your post reflect exactly what's wrong with Christians today - Christ taught a doctrine of love and we've replaced it with bigotry, exclusivism, and hate

Interesting point here. Love is fully compatible with exclusivism and hate. Hate in the sense that God loves good and hates evil. Exclusivism in the sense that if Christianity is true, then it is mutually exclusive with anything contradicting it i.e. if repenting and placing your faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven, then anything contradictory claims - and therefore all other religions - must be wrong.

Please revisit the Gospels and concentrate on Jesus' teachings. They're the most central to the faith, and yet they always seem to be overshadowed by a lust for death and self-righteousness.

Interestingly, Jesus says in Luke 24 that the whole of the OT is about him and is effectively his teaching. In many ways I enjoy the OT more because the teaching is placed in so many different contexts and is so clearly presented in the midst of a messy messy world that is quite reminiscent of our own. The refrain in Judges about there being no king and everyone doing as they see fit certainly seems as true now as it did then. The same old problems are there and the same solution - it all points to Jesus. In fact, the message of the OT seems to be very much about the need for and promise of a coming salvation, while the NT looks forward to and warns of the impending judgement when Jesus returns. Quite appropriate to think about with Ascension Day coming up. Jesus left and next time he's back, it'll be to judge.

Re:Depends on context...(OT)

[FiloEleven]

First thing's first:

>At the end of the day, no-one deserves to be saved; everyone deserves to go to Hell. It's only God's grace and leading some to repent and believe in his Son that means anyone at all will be saved.

I have actually recently taken the restorationist point of view, which says that everyone who wishes to reconcile (him|her)self to God will be able to, either before or after death. It doesn't necessarily remove hell from the picture, but it does mean that hell doesn't need to be eternal. It has an impact on the way I see things, which is why I mention it, even if it's a bit off-off-topic. =) Anyway, on to the real stuff:

>Interesting point here. Love is fully compatible with exclusivism and hate. Hate in the sense that God loves good and hates evil. Exclusivism in the sense that if Christianity is true, then it is mutually exclusive with anything contradicting it i.e. if repenting and placing your faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven, then anything contradictory claims - and therefore all other religions - must be wrong.

I think you might be misinterpreting what I said originally. The exclusivism and hate I was referring to was from our (human) point of view. We are the ones who are supposed to deal with each other in love, yet some of the most spiteful people I know are Christians dealing with non-Christians (either atheist or another religion).
Similarly, I didn't mean exclusivism in the way,truth,life sense. I meant that most (conservative) Christians are unwilling to recognize that other religions have worth, at the _very least_ because of a different worldview. I spoke with an atheist who has learned to see much more beauty in the world because he believes it's the only one there is. I believe in an afterlife, but I also discovered that one should not live despising this world and living for the next. Buddhism's concept of God requires a lot of respect for our fellow creatures - something that we Christians often lack, though we're called to be stewards of the Earth. The list goes on. I cannot in good faith throw out everything another religion has to say simply because they don't share my central belief.

I hope that clears things up a bit.