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This window of opportunity closes when the first useful, cheap mass-market Ogg player -- comparable to Muvo, say -- hits the market.

I am a musician who records a lot of live performances, and I just bought a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3.. I'm really happy with it.. For about $375 you get a 40 GB hard drive, and it can record to WAV or several different MP3 formats via the analog or optical line in..

I tried the Sony Minidisc recorder, but was disappointed by the built-in DRM (you can't copy your own recordings to a PC digitally, because it doesn't think you have rights to them)..

If you've got a Creative NOMAD, Notmad Jukebox can serve your tunes from it over the web (Winamp streaming format!!!), and it even acts as a SQL database.

The Jukebox Zen looks fairly iPod 'enspired' in my opinion.

you'll kill the drive pretty fast

Better hurry up and tell apple, creative, and archos. They've got a lot of money riding on this.

The problem with going any further is that the driver for smartcards has to be on the device. Compact Flash cards have the driver on the card itself. It is a trivial matter to put in a 5 GB CF microdrive in CF 2 devices from 8 years ago, but it is impossible to use any particular smart media card unless the manufacturer has specifically programmed the device to be able to handle it. So unless you are willing to program the firmware for either the device or the recepticle, you probably aren't going to find what you are looking for*.

Of course, if you do, please keep us posted. We've got a few somewhat useless Rio PMP 300's that would love to be PMPed out.

Sorry, I've been saving that pun for years.

-C

*It's extremely unlikely, but theoretically possible, that you may be able to connect an IDE controller in place of the smart card controller, but I really doubt it.

First lets clear up the specs of the Nomad IIc mp3 player (sorry, sign says "No oggs allowed"). The II designates this as the Creative's second effort to sucker users into paying good money for a player with some problems. The c means that you're not get the fm radio tuner present on the normal model II (don't worry, commercial radio is ass anyway). The IIc comes with an internal memory capacity of either 32, 64, or 128mb. Every model is also blessed/cursed to have a smartmedia expansion slot on the rear of the unit, tucked up under the battery cover. The unit has one Line Out/Headphone jack a built in microphone and a USB connector. Various buttons are also present for tinkering with things like volume, voice recording, and accessing the internal memory. The LCD is mercifully backlit with a delay that can be adjusted in the internal settings menu.

One of the biggest shortcomings of the unit is the lack of file organisation. Files are present in one long list with no "search" or "jump" function. To go from song 5 to song 15 takes 10 clicks of the "skip right" button. Only while your nomad is connected to your computer are you able to sort this list of unhappiness. So connecting a 10Gig hard drive would give you an amazing amount of storage and an RSI of your index finger.

The IIc does have updatable firmware (available from Creative)which dictates the maximum size of the smartmedia card that the unit can take. Unfortunately there are no firmware updates for the 128mb version but the 64mb updates seem to work ok.

Also, not to be forgotten, is the pox on the house of every Nomad user; Playcenter! This packaged in garbage software from Creative is the only way out of the box to store files on the your IIc to internal memory or smartmedia cards. The Nomad doesn't even show up as an external device in explorer. I've experienced repeated hangs/crashes when reading from 128mb smartmedia cards and long waits while it updates the database containing songs on my computer. Any respectable program should be able to handle a 6Gb+ mp3 collection without choking. The quick solution to this is Notmad Explorer (the free version only allows the transfer of 1 file at a time $15 US for the single player version $35 for all nomad support).

That's about it, so I present to you two major hurdles to overcome in hacking this little wonder:

1) Powering the unit and an external HD on the go. The battery cover must be off to access the smartmedia slot so you run the risk of that AA battery popping out at inopportune times. Perhaps you could power both through a 12v cigarette lighter outlet of a car.

2) Firmware. You'll have to become a master of rewriting the firmware or know someone who is to overcome the 128mb barrier, find some way to skip to a certain song, and allow folder organization for easy browsing.

Perhaps some potential for expansion lies in the USB connection on the side of the player.

Maybe instead of hacking away looking for a big storage fix, save your pennies and order a Zen from another country.

Get a Nomad Zen instead. It has both FireWire and USB interfaces, slightly longer battery life, and it supports recording. Or consider the new Archos players and recorders: USB2, FireWire, and lots of other features.

All for $250 (counting a $50 rebate (link to a pdf)).

At first, I started syncing over USB, man was that slow! For $30, you can pick up a firewire card, pop it in, and wham! stuff transfers super-fast.

I love it. Sure, it's a little bigger than an iPod, but that doesn't bother me. The interface is pretty darn good, you can create playlists on the device, I've got tons of battery life, the sound quality is great, and I saved a bunch of money. What's not to love?

Well, there is one thing that sucks about it. The Creative software that comes with it. Ditch it and get the Notmad Explorer software from Red Chair. It's a lot more streamlined, and syncs ID3 tags correctly with the device. It's cheap and totally useful. Todd

If you want to test your sound card you can get this program to see how your sound card stacks up to the muvo. muvo specs here You'll need to run a cable from your speaker out to your stereo input on your soundcard...

But if your headphones suck, it really won't matter will it :D

Analog/Optical Line-In for direct high quality recording from external audio devices

Perhaps this hacked FW spec is the reason their specs said that SB1394 was only 10x faster than USB. Normal theoretical performance would have Firewire over 30x faster than USB 1 (400 Mbps vs 12), never mind actual performance.

... that one of the most appealing aspects of the iPod is the hardware design? Looking at the Zen reminds me a lot of the Nomad MG (which I own). A great player, but the fact that there are buttons on BOTH sides of the unit makes it a huge hassle to hold onto (always pushing buttons by accident). At least the MG has different button layouts on each side -- the Zen has identical button layouts on each side, making the situation even worse. The iPod's wheel and push button method of interacting with the UI is much more intuitive than having to remember two sets of buttons located on the side of the unit, which you can not see while looking at the screen.

I don't own a Macintosh, or any Apple product for that matter, but THIS is the reason why Apple is still around. You can talk about things like Ogg support and the ability to hack a device with custom apps until you are blue in the face. At the end of the day, those things don't sell product, but making thoughtfully and intelligently designed products will.

... that one of the most appealing aspects of the iPod is the hardware design? Looking at the Zen reminds me a lot of the Nomad MG (which I own). A great player, but the fact that there are buttons on BOTH sides of the unit makes it a huge hassle to hold onto (always pushing buttons by accident). At least the MG has different button layouts on each side -- the Zen has identical button layouts on each side, making the situation even worse. The iPod's wheel and push button method of interacting with the UI is much more intuitive than having to remember two sets of buttons located on the side of the unit, which you can not see while looking at the screen.

I don't own a Macintosh, or any Apple product for that matter, but THIS is the reason why Apple is still around. You can talk about things like Ogg support and the ability to hack a device with custom apps until you are blue in the face. At the end of the day, those things don't sell product, but making thoughtfully and intelligently designed products will.

Their number for product Information (non-technical issues only) is: 1-800-998-5227 (non-technical issues only, please) or FAX: 1-405-624-6780. Operating Hours (Central Time) 9AM - 6PM, Monday - Friday, Closed Public Holidays.

They have a contact page here: http://www.nomadworld.com/scripts/selectCountry.as p?t=ps - just click on that, then select "MP3 players".

It looks like that just dumps you into their customer support page, at: https://www.americas.creative.com/youraccount/sign in.asp?gstrAccountWay=2&c=True.

Please, if you mean it, contact them and ask for Ogg Vorbis support. Most companies will listen if large numbers of potential customers call up and say "I will buy this if you add feature X." It only makes sense!

According to the specs, the buffer is 16 MB SDRAM.

Are they available? Atleast these specs tell very little. Anyway, I was thinking whether it would have the HW to run a real OS. I guess it must. If so, someone could throw in a small footprint Linux and make it support ogg. And ofcourse, it would not be just a jukebox anymore.

iPod specs here

Jukebox Zen
specs here

Height: iPod =101.6 mm vs. Zen=112.6

Width: iPod =60.96 mm vs. Zen=75.9

Depth: iPod =21.34 mm vs. Zen=24.5

Weight: iPod =7.2 oz vs. Zen=9.5 oz

Display: iPod=160x128 pix vs. Zen=132x64 pix

Output Power: iPod=60mW vs. Zen=100mW

Playing Time: iPod=10hours vs. Zen=12hours

Go read the specifications, it's not listed. Only mp3 and wma are listed.
specs

[ Corporate Page |
Linux support ]

I have had nothing but good experiences with this one. It's a smaller (64M onboard, can take a 128M smartmedia card) solid-state player that I got mainly to take something cycling and such with me.

The Linux support is great, if you don't mind using a commandline tool. The USB hookup works flawlessly.

It holds about 3 hours worth of music (at 192M), but the advantage of being small is that it also plays for about 8 hours on a single AA cell.

Every time you play a CD, the machine automatically copies its tracks onto its built-in 20-gigabyte hard drive. It will then try to get album track information off the CD or, alternately, you can use the PC link to get titles off your favorite cddb-like site.

It's called a Nomad 3, and it costs only $400.00

First, Toshiba isn't the first to sell an "iPod competitor". We've already seen the Treo 10 ("...which is similar in appearance and function to the iPod...") and Nomad hit the market, with similar press responses.

Second, the iPod has a lot more going for it than 5/10 GB and a FireWire connection. That thumbwheel on the front makes it insanely easy to navigate through the music stored on it (you just spiiiiiiin and click, versus click-and-click-and-click-and-click-and...). Instant sync with iTunes means that you can organize playlists on your desktop with a full-size keyboard and download them perfectly into your portable. If you've never held one, you'd be amazed how small and light it is.

Bottom line: Apple's not the only high-capacity MP3 player on the market, and they know it, but they can sell theirs for higher prices because (a) they're selling to Mac loyalists and (b) they've got ease-of-use down to a science, to a degree almost no other company can match. Believe me, they're far from running scared.

As of 17:22 Tuesday (PDT) it's not on:
Creative's online shop
Amazon's "Nomad Jukebox"... All Results page

Any even of my local retailers (check here).

I'd really be interested if anyone could tell me where to get one online.
Cheers!

As of 17:22 Tuesday (PDT) it's not on:
Creative's online shop
Amazon's "Nomad Jukebox"... All Results page

Any even of my local retailers (check here).

I'd really be interested if anyone could tell me where to get one online.
Cheers!

This is one of the reasons I like Apple better as a company over Creative.

I bought the 10 gig iPod, it's adveristed as having "2,000 songs in your pocket". If you go to the site, they clarify that you can fit much more if you use lower quality mp3s, you can fit more (and I do), but their advertising avoids being misleading in the least bit and simply states 2000. Now, by logic, shouldn't the Creative Nomad, with having a 20 gig harddrive, hold just double the amount the 10 gig iPod holds? Meaning 4000. However, Creative, being a company I've come to dislike, plays their advertising campaign to lower bit rate mp3s storage.

When my Nomad II MG had problems, Creative was really shitty about it. I wanted to switch over to the 10 gig after buying the 5 gig and the sales rep at Apple were joking around and going "I know exactly what you mean" and in days, the exchange had been made.

Differences in services, differences in companies hopefully = differences in sales and success.

I wonder if the battery life is really anywhere near 22 hours, and also if it is turned into a brick with two batteries.

Also, can it act as a normal hard drive?

yes. it must not mount as a normal portable hard disk in windows, though. it comes with the "creative file manager" app for transferring non-music files to/from the device.

there's one bullet about this on the features page ("Creative File Manager - Use the player as a portable storage device").

from the specs page:

Memory
16MB DRAM buffer
20GB hard drive storage (333 hours at 128kbps MP3 encoding)

One can only own so many nomads.

(Yes, I do have all of these)

I'm not interested in some "super small" music file - disk space is cheap and MP3 is already small enough for transfering over the Internet. I'm more interested in audio quality and hardware compatibility. MP3 and WMA sound great (moreso the latter), and are both commonly supported by cool hardware. I don't see the point in all these other media formats. I like to listen to my music on something other then my computer.

There are at least a couple on the market. My nomad II mas a small mic (look for the pin hole just below the wheel on the picture in the link), and the archos jukebox recorder has a line in for recording.

IIRC, Sony never sold a "Network" or "Memory Stick" Walkman that directly supported MP3 or non-DRM sticks. They all convert MP3s to ATRAC3 before uploading.

Interesting note: The Network Walkman is the only Memory Stick device that forces DRM. Clies will play MP3 or ATRAC3. VAIOs with built-in stick readers typically support MagicGate, but add-on readers (USB, PC Card, or floppy) don't. However, Memory Sticks are removable drives to the OS, so you just have to mount, navigate to PALM/PROGRAMS/MSAUDIO/, and tune in.

Sony is attempt to force me to accept digital rights/wrongs that I don't won't. When will the companies remember--"the customer is always right"?

You remind them every time you vote with your wallet. Instead of buying an NW-MS9, buy a Nomad. Or an Archos Jukebox. Or an iPod, if you're in that 5% of the market enclosed in the JRDF. Let them know that, given a choice, consumers will choose the path of most convenience. (See also: Circuit City DiVX vs. DVD) Maybe if everybody imposed DRM as vigorously as Sony, the Network Walkman would be competitive. As it stands now, their only customers are members of Hillary Rosen's immediate family.

Two years ago Creative added a free firmware update on NomadWorld.com that allowed WMA playback. Now it comes standard (has for a while).

What about some of these Players, like the Nomad or even the iPod that support firmware, or OS updates. I think the iPod might have some possiblities there. Now if iTunes would support Ogg as a plugin or something.....

mp3.com reviews a large selection of mp3 players, many of which are not SDMI.
Any combo hard-drive/mp3 player like the neo jukebox, the archos or the nomad jukebox can't be SDMI compliant.

I tried to stay out of this, but the iPod bashing seems to continue.

Seems to be a lot of talk about the iPod being dead-in-the-water (or nearly so) as an MP3 player. I, as a NJB owner and occasional Apple owner (my G3 has been powered up twice in the past year), find the iPod quite appealing, and would gladly exchange my NJB plus two hundred dollars for one. Here's why the iPod will, IMHO, kick the NJB's butt.

#1 - Size. The NJB is exactly the wrong size, as are all the other HD-based MP3 players I've seen. Too big to be really carry-in-on-you portable, too small to hold a useable display or enough buttons to properly save/name playlists, manage files, explore your collection etc.

#2 - Data storage. The NJB didn't used to do this, and even now barely does.

#3 - Speed. USB. Slow. Firewire. Fast. Swapping out even a 6GB NJB MP3 library takes a LONG, LONG time, like many hours. Assuming the software doesn't time out on you, which, ten firmwares later, it still does. Often.

#4 - Reliability. PB5300s be damned, Apple makes decent stuff. I'm on my second NJB, and its starting to die too. Creative puts a *90-day* warranty on the things, they're so flaky. Really.

#5 - Battery life. The NJB gets 2 hours IME from a set of NiMH AAs. There are also issues with overheating, failure to charge, and improper charge status reporting on the units. What good is 1000 hours of music if you can only enjoy it two hours at a time? Many NJB owners are resorting to $50-$70 ratpacks worth of bulky NiMH D-cells to get to the 10hr battery life the iPod advertizes as standard. Bring on the lithium polymer.

#6 - Support. 1-800-SOS-APPL vs. we-wont-even-give-you-a-number-to-call-unless-you- go-through-this-web-wizard and "we think you dropped it". Worse if you're outside the US. Sign me up for some iPod Applecare - after two dead Rios and two dead NJB's, I could use some warranty love.

#7 - Output level. Based on the Reg's comment about the iPod sounding good, and based on the fact that NJB owners everywhere are opening up their units (voiding their 90 day warranty) to try to solder in a reasonable output level.

#8 - Aesthetics. 'nuff said.

#9 - Price. The iPod is cheaper ($400USD) than the NJB was when I bought my first one at $759CAD ($499USD), less than a year ago. If this 1.8" drive format is standardized, then bigger drives should be able to be shoehorned in, as NJB owners have been doing.

#10 - Drive letter (or the mac version, mount-it-on-the-desktop) support. Try using cheeseball banner-ads-galore gotta-use-it-to-load-the-device-whoops-i-crashed-a gain Creative Playcenter and you'll see what I mean.

#11 - Boot times. Even with the latest firmware, its still 20+ seconds from powering the unit up to getting a sound out of it. For those with bigger HDs, older firmware, or less-than-perfect ID3 tags, startup times of two minutes or more are the norm. I can't imagine the iPod would be worse than THAT.

#12 - Proprietary file system with no repair / diagnosis options. There's no way to do a "real" format on an NJB. As in one that actually looks for bad sectors. One bad sector on your fragile fujitsu 2.5" HD? Count on lockups, freezeups, and untold general annoyances. There's no defrag, either.

There's plenty more, but I think the point is made. 'nuff of the pooh-poohing. As soon as someone can get this thing to accept MP3s from a PeeCee running Windoze and/or Linux, it will be the next big thing. (and save the archos jukebox praise, unless you've actually used one - or at least fondled a dead one).

Sources:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/electronics/3652.sh tml
http://www.americas.creative.com/products/product. asp?Product=102&MainCategory=2
http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html

It is a very tough decision. Nomad is less expensive, but you definitely pay for the smaller size of iPod and the fast interface. Nomad has some cool features like line-in recording and variable playback rates but so does iPod with its integration with iTunes and neat scrolling system. (Not to mention mutiple language support.) Who knows, it's a photo-finish in my book.

-Jon

Just FYI.

Whoa. I haven't had any of the problems you have mentioned.

My batteries worked fine after a 12 hour charge - they last about 3 hours though. I charged my second set with an external charger that I already had, and they worked fine as well.

As for the no fast-forward or rewind - this bothered me too - however get the latest update from http://www.nomadworld.com and you will get this functionality!

Not to mention the ability to transfer mp3's off of your Nomad to your PC. This bothered me as well - unfortunately you can't transfer "protected files" such as the ones that come pre-installed. Only the mp3's that you put on yourself.

I love my NJB...

You can do MP3 voice recording with the Creative Nomad

According to nomad world there will be some expansion kit in the future. Plus a car adapter (RF this time, not some crappy cassette tape), and a remote control (there's an IR receiver on the front of the nomad). I haven't opened mine up, as I like it and I'm not an EE by any stretch of the imagination.

6GB is a lot of space, even if you encode at 160kbps, as I do. There's about 1.5GB taken up by pre-encoded music, including readings of Robinson Crusoe and Frankenstein, plus a lot of classical and a nice mix of other music. Since then I've put a good number of my CDs on it and I still have 2GB free.

Now for the real question: anyone hacking a USB interface to let me upload music?

...another comment from Michael Tandy.

Under $300:
Games, of course - Grandia II, Final Fantasy IX, Majora's Mask -
But you're probably looking at gadgits. So I'll say a GameBoy Advanced (yes, I know the US version is a year away, but I can dream), or a Wonderswan (same deal - but I want to play Final Fantasy I-III (the real I - III, not "we'll call IV FFII and VI FFIII! Bwahahaha!").

The other item would be a Playstation One (small footprint) with the LCD panel and a car adapter so I could take it on trips.

$300 - $1500:
One of two things:
A Voodoo 6000 (128 MB RAM, 4 processors, needs its own external power source - can you say Unreal Tournament at 1024x768 4x AA at 100 frames a second? Oh, yes. Check it at http://www.3dfx.com/prod/vood oo/ v5-6000-overv.html
Creative Labs Jukebox http://www.nomadworld.com/products/j uke box/ - 6 gigs of MP3 storage from a name I trust.

$1500+
It took me a little bit, but I'd want one of those Honda gas-electric cars http://arstechnica.com/ rev iews/3q00/honda/insight-1.html - save gas $, save the planet, and stick it to OPEC all at the same time. (Now, if only they'd make an ethenol version so I could help out Kansas farms at the same time...)
John "Dark Paladin" Hummel

• A Handspring Visor Deluxe (I had one, loved it, lost it last week when I drove away from a gas station with it on the roof. Don't ask.)
  
• The Nomad Jukebox, a portable MP3 player with 6+ gigabytes of storage.
  
• A pair of Lightspeed 25XL Active Noise Reduction headphones for flying.
  

• A deHavilland Beaver on floats.
  
• A really fast computer.
  
• A 21" monitor.
  
• An empeg.com MP3 player for my car.
  

Here is something in that $300-$1000 category.

But why would you want to carry around a few dozen CDs? If you want it stuck to your car, get an empeg. If you want a portable, the Nomad Jukebox is probably the best thing out there. Too bad it doesn't support Linux.

With the general lack of Linux USB support, it's still looking like I'll have to build my own player if I want something decent.

If you're considering purchasing the PJB, you may want to wait on Creative's Nomad Jukebox. Not only will it store a more music (6GB), it costs a couple hundred less, has some very interesting add-ons coming out (transmit music to your car's FM radio), and looks a hell of a lot cooler.

On the other hand, the Nomad has significantly shorter battery life, perhaps because it has only 8MB of RAM to buffer with.

Why oh why don't these companies just put 32MB of RAM in these things?

sigh

Creative's Nomad Jukebox seems pretty cool. A little expensive though ($600), and no cd player. But being able to store 100 hrs of music, I think I can live without the cd. :)

Coming up in Q2 of this year, Creative are releasing the Nomad Jukebox, a 6GB Digital Music Player. Note digital music, not MP3. This thing is supposed to have a DSP chip in it with changeable codecs. It'll play MP3 and WAV as standard... but I want a 6GB VQF portable. Then I can laugh at the technology curve. Check Nomadworld for the info. I want one already. VQF. Mmm.