Slashdot Mirror

It will in the next Series 2 software upgrade, which are automatically download to TiVo owners.

For something /. worthy, check out New series 2 Tivo for $199

Fine, so go and find a patch for a 2.0 kernel. The point remains the same.

The reason Microsoft still supports windows 98 is that people still use it

Oh, so I suppose all the people who were running Win95 when it ceased support 2 years ago were mythical... and all the people who got screwed by DX8.1a not being available for Win95 were also illusionary.

You realize there are still people running DOS and Win 3.x out there, right?

Products have a life cycle. And, frankly, as much as MS gets bashed, they have a pretty damn long life cycle for a consumer OS. It's considerably longer than you can reliably expect patches from the Linux community. The standard line is "just upgrade" or "so fix it yourself", neither of which are viable answers in the real world.

If people still used the older versions on Linux they would be supported. But since everyone has moved on there is no point

Uh huh. If you want to believe that particular delusion, keep going.

When was the last 2.1 patch? Oh... right... nobody is running 2.1 still. Sure. Uh huh. And yes, those are modifiable.

Extremetech.com has had some pretty good articles on "Rolling your own TIVO" going for a while on building your own system. Discusses hardware and software options.

I'd have to say I'd prefer LINUX, one reason being it was good enough for the commercial product TIVO.

That, and I believe on their site they have the option to transfer a lifetime sub onto another box (does this work for transferring a sub from a series 1 standalone to a series 2 standalone?)

A product lifetime subscription to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo Digital Recorder (DVR) you buy--not the life of the subscriber. The product lifetime subscription accompanies the product in case of ownership transfer. The subscription remains in effect if your DVR needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer warranty details). Because a product lifetime subscription is linked to a particular DVR, it cannot be transferred to any other DVR (unless the DVR is replaced due to a malfunction covered by the manufacturer's warranty). Each recorder purchased requires its own service subscription and activation.

Of course, hardware products don't last forever and their lifespan will vary among individual products. TiVo makes no representations or warranties as to the expected lifetime of the product aside from the manufacturer's warranty.

Paying $12.95 a month for 20 months (better known as 1 year 8 months) is $259. So, if you plan on having your Tivo longer than 20 months, the product lifetime option is better. (throw that whole thinking out the window with DirecTivo, since they're $4.95 a month, it'd take about 53 months... 4 years 5 months... to break even)

I had the same opinion (buy monthly, a new product is going to be forced on you every two years), and kept going monthly for my first 10 months. Then they had the monthly price increase, and let me buy at $199 lifetime. About 3 months ago I broke even, and am saving monry every month.

That, and I believe on their site they have the option to transfer a lifetime sub onto another box (does this work for transferring a sub from a series 1 standalone to a series 2 standalone?)

They need a product that is going to sell hundreds of thousands of units, or even millions of units to make production worthwhile. There's no Linux based product that's even remotely close to that.

Welcome to No Linux Based Product Dot Com.

And even better, apparently that serial port connection into the digial cable box is now functional.

http://attbroadband.tivo.com/0.5.asp (announcement)

http://attbroadband.tivo.com/0.5.1.asp (setting up the Tivo serial connection)

Wonder if it works on the series one recorders?

And even better, apparently that serial port connection into the digial cable box is now functional.

http://attbroadband.tivo.com/0.5.asp (announcement)

http://attbroadband.tivo.com/0.5.1.asp (setting up the Tivo serial connection)

Wonder if it works on the series one recorders?

If anyone (including me) has that question on mind, look here.

My wife and I were both avid fans of Junkyard Wars. There were days when we would miss the first taping and stay up till after midnight to watch it.

Am I the only one who saw Pioneer DVR-A05 and thought this was some kind of TiVo device?

This is funny!

This is way better than any VCR on the face of the planet.

Besides which, did you just utterly and completely miss the statement that most consumers don't even use the recording capabilities of VCRs?

The death nail of Netpliance. Built a machine for $400 and sold for $100... Service extra. The same could be said for Replay and TiVo both boxs are being sold undervalue but it is the monthly checks that keep them working.

Nope if you looked at my User# you would realize that. And Tivo only discourages hacking that tries to decrypt or transfer the programming off of the machine. Actually with the v3.0 of the software they included drivers for the ethernet card (a 3rd party addon) to make installation easier.

Why you get them from here of course, hardly hidden. There isn't that many addons because there isn't much of a market. And there is quite a bit you can do with it since, its easy to get a bash prompt. Compile what ever you want on it.

It does make me curious: which distros of Linux provide similar PVR support. Mmmm?

TiVo.

Note that this is for the lifetime of the equipment and not your lifetime...their disclaimer

1. New company introduces a great geek gadget idea
2. It only appeals to geeks, since the concept & product isn't refined yet
3. Big Companies see the good idea and have the $$$ to market it appropriately, and make it more user-friendly
4. By this time, there are many such products on the market, more refined w/cheaper price tags
5. The more technically savvy Younger Generation appreciates it, and buys it

This phenomenon is quite interesting. In regards to TiVo, it's sad that they have to be the guinea pigs, but it'll benefit consumers in the long run.

I just hope that the current TiVo owners don't get hosed because the company goes under.
( Especially the lifetime subscription holders)

Get a Tivo and install a Tivonet Install TivoWeb so you can programm the Tivo via the internet, and locate some video extractions software.

Don't get a Tivo Satellite combo, get a standalone unit so you can tell it to record in low quality (VHS quality), an hour of video is about a gigabyte.

Download the video over the net, or have your buddy burn them onto CD and mail them to you.

I feel that there should be no additional charge for digital cable if they are going to shove advertisements down my throat every time I change the channel. I'll be switching back to satellite when my trial movie package expires.

Sounds like you need a TiVo. The guide that Cox uses with its digital-cable boxes isn't ad-infested, but navigation through it is still sluggish and show titles are often abbreviated to something that doesn't always make sense. The guide information that TiVo provides is more complete and can be browsed more rapidly.

New Linux-based PVR from Sony

This makes it sound like Cocoon is the first Linux based PVR, or the fact that it is Linux makes it newsworthy (this may not be the case, but its how I percieved it).
TiVo is a linux-based PVR.

If you want to hate digital cable, here's a better reason: Your VCR won't work with it unless it has a digital tuner.

The digital-cable box I'm using (a Scientific-Atlanta Explorer 2100) has the ability to control a VCR (in the same manner that most digital-satellite receivers can control a VCR). Going the other way, my TiVo will control it with no problems. It would be nice if the digital-video data picked up by the box could be piped into the TiVo and saved to disk (a la DirecTiVo), but it works well enough if you record at best quality (easy to do when you've stuck one or two big (>=100GB) hard drives in your TiVo.

(The only problem I've noticed so far is that the cable box shuts off during a brownout, doesn't come back up in the power-on state when power is back, and the TiVo won't turn it back on when it's putting out no signal. Putting the box on a UPS (I have one powering the cable modem, a 10/100 switch, and the TiVo already) would fix that problem.)

How about this?

Don't you mean Replay TV? Or does TIVO now connect via broadband and allow for the sharing of programs like ReplayTV does?

Jesus, not again...

2) The Privacy Foundation's report on Tivo points out that
a) Your Tivo serial number is sent multiple times during each phone call and there is no way to guarantee data is truly treated anonymously except to trust Tivo.

Except by looking at the method which it uses to send the data and having intelligence enough to figure out that it's sending the serial-containing logs to a different place at a different time, and leaving no way to correlate the serial with the anonymous part of the data. Someone needs to tell "the privacy foundation" that you don't need an expensive box with modem trickery to spy on a connection, you just need a knowledge of how the system works. They've gone out of their way to stick to *exactly* what their privacy policy says, and all you need is a knowledge of Linux and TCL to see that.

b) Tivo's definition of "personal" information is significantly more narrow than the average privacy policy reader would assume, and so guarantees about your "personal" information are hollow.

Personal info, as defined by Tivo, is basically anything that can be tied back to you or to your box individually. Seems airtight to me.

c) Tivo suggests that the viewing information is never transmitted. In fact, all of the constituent pieces of the personal viewing information are transmitted to TiVo's computers.

Huh? Tivo explictly states that anonymous viewing information is transmitted. Read it, specifically section 2.3:

d) TiVo should disclose that their customer-identified diagnostic log can indicate when the TiVo remote control was in use.

The customer identified diagnostic log cannot indicate when the remote control was in use. The Privacy Foundation misinterpreted the meaning of several of the diagnotic messages because they simply looked at the log and not what the hell the unit was actually doing.

I agree, it's important to fight for your privacy. But it's equally important to pick your battles and not fight against the companies that explicit state what data they collect, how they use it, and then stick by that. Tivo has been incredible in that respect. They do it right, and if every company was as forthcoming as they have been about this sort of thing, then there'd be a lot less privacy battles to fight.

3) Anyone heard of Replay TV here?

Yeah, and we all hope they win. But frankly, they have an inferior product. They added nice whizbang features like ethernet (although Tivo Series 2 will have ethernet support too), show sharing, auto commercial skip, and a (somewhat lame) web control, which we geeks love, but they failed to fix the most important problems like: more intelligent scheduling, priorities that make sense, ability to see what the unit will do in the future and adjust it, etc... All the things that make a PVR better than a VCR. Adding neat features is easy. Making a unit work exceedingly well at one thing is more difficult. Tivo works better than Replay for the purpose of timeshifting programs. Replay works better than Tivo for the purpose of geek type stuff. And Replay, while they fight the good fight, are really pushing themselves into an uncertain future by doing so. Ever thought about "what if they lose", which they most probably will?

1. The latest ReplayTV (4000+) has a Commercial Skip feature. This isn't a 30-second skip button, this is a "hit this button and we will automatically skip every commercial" button.

2. TiVo does have a 30-second skip button, it just isn't enabled by default. See the TiVo FAQ for more info.

3. The 3 major networks (NBC, CBS and ABC/Disney) and TV/Movie content providers such as AOL/Time Warner are investors in TiVo. You don't usually go around suing people you have already given large amounts of money to.

If I'm at the grocery, and I see rotten apples, I'm not going to sue the store, I'm just going to take my business elsewhere. I'm getting rather tired of all these people _expecting_ certain licenses. "But it takes away my Freedom"? Replay has the freedom to put whatever license they feel on their product. Hey, and know what, if you don't hack the thing, they won't cancel your service!

It's not like there's no competition around to buy your PVR from.

Of course not, that would be balanced research, and Slashdot editors/authors don't have time for that what with keeping so busy being liberal reactionaries.

I can't stand Replay for a myriad of technical reasons, but read Tivos license agreement - it says all the same things, sometimes in nearly the exact same words.

"Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product..."

"TiVo retains the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this agreement, if the charges to your credit card for the fees described in the "Subscription Fees and Payment Authorization" paragraph above are refused for any reason, if you breach any provision in this agreement, if you misuse the TiVo Service, and/ or if you alter the Recorder or use the TiVo Service in such a manner as to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of TiVo or any third party."

They have to say those kinds of things to keep their legal options open should someone do something they feel they have to respond to. Until they give some sign of enforcing their agreement more rigidly than Tivo getting your panties in a wad over what some standard legal disclaimer says is a bit premature. Of course premature and uninformed ranting is what Slashdot is all about these days, isn't it?

These terms are identical to those terms that are present within the Tivo service license agreement. I think you can expect terms like this from whomever you get your PVR service from. They are here to Cover Their A$$. You can find more information about Tivo's license here:

Tivo's Service Agreement

Uhm, the entertainment industry basically did just that: TiVo equity investors

Well, you get your wish. All their marketing material says "Product lifetime". Also, this is way different then a warranty. If a lifetime product waranty ended with the lifetime of the product, you would get nothing. With a service you use all the time, you get the benifit of the service for as long as you maintain your unit. I think that "Product lifetime" is a better name then "unit subscription". You can tell what "product lifetime" means without ambiguity.

http://www.tivo.com/get/tivo_service.asp

The TiVo DVR collects certain types of information from its users, including Anonymous Viewing Information, Diagnostic Information, Commerce Information, and Service Information.

Really, what they need to do is the same kind of deal as with the DirecTivo boxes. Combine the Digital Cable set-top-box with the Tivo.

They have this. The AT&Tivo. Of couse it only works with AT&T Broadband.

http://attbroadband.tivo.com/get/index.asp

order the AT&T Broadband unit. $299 for 40 hours

Not that I don't believe you ;), but where on the site does it say that it's a 40-hour unit? (I just want to confirm that it's 40 hours, and also that it has USB).

For what it's worth, the "white market" TiVO (with 60 hours) is actually cheaper than the AT&T Broadband-branded one on a per-hour basis. Proportionally, if the TiVO-branded TiVO were available in a 40-hour version, it'd cost just $267 :-/.

order the AT&T Broadband unit. $299 for 40 hours

Not that I don't believe you ;), but where on the site does it say that it's a 40-hour unit? (I just want to confirm that it's 40 hours, and also that it has USB).

For what it's worth, the "white market" TiVO (with 60 hours) is actually cheaper than the AT&T Broadband-branded one on a per-hour basis. Proportionally, if the TiVO-branded TiVO were available in a 40-hour version, it'd cost just $267 :-/.

Ah, yes, the "dirty little secret" of the TiVo World--go here and order the AT&T Broadband unit. $299 for 40 hours - it's a series 2, so it's the latest & greatest from TiVo, and it's a great entry-level box.
Oh, it doesn't require AT&T Broadband cable service or anything like that - it's the same as any other Series 2 unit except for the AT&T Branding and the only 40 hours of space.
/gleffler

And even if for some reason the networks win their lawsuit, all it is likely to mean is that there will be a software update to disable whatever feature the court rules is illegal.

And you're stuck with a box that isn't as good as its competitors (Tivo)

I may give ReplayTV a slight advantage over Tivo because of the Commercial Skip and File Sharing features, but without those features there is no comparison. Tivo wins by a mile

er... what about this must be pal cos the uk is PAL.

You also receive product updates, at least on the software side. Of course, the amount of development work they can do is significantly limited by the hardware, but they've still added some nice stuff in 1.3, 2.0, and a bit of stuff in 3.0.

Yes, it is rather like the various other "get the hardware for free and lease the software" schemes that have almost universally failed. And I hope that isn't in the cards for TiVo, but who knows.

My claim is simply that you're paying for more than just the listings. And I believe that currently that's a worthwhile service. If you don't think that, well, you bought the hardware. Wipe the drives clean and write your own software from the ground up. A fair number of the hardware interfaces you'll need are open sourced, since TiVo linked them to the kernel, and available at TiVo's site. But don't use their software, download listings into it from a 3rd party source, and then claim that TiVo's service is a ripoff... you're still using the majority of it without paying. The only thing you paid for upfront was the hardware.

Yea, tivo is moving over to the Series II platform. The new boxes are at some best buys right now, and I think all of them should have it within a week or so. You can also buy the series II tivos (the 40 hour at&t one, or the 60 hour one) from http://www.tivo.com

There are several really cool features which push the DVR market forward and have been long overdue

- What's on next? button

Easy to get this information now - its one button push on TiVO. Not to mention that most DVR users don't watch live TV anyway. The only live TV I've watched in the last six months was the Superbowl and the Oscars. Once you start to use a DVR you don't care what's on next.

- The ability to create an edited version of a recording

This would be cool but is probably beyond what most consumers want. I could see this growing in the future though. It will be interesting to see if this takes off

- Directories to hold recordings

Actually until I have much larger disc capacity on a DVR I don't see a pressing need for this. Until I have more than 100 hours (approx. 100 gigs) of shows, having them in a single directory isn't a big deal.

- How much space is left on my hard drive indicator

Why should I care? I haven't ever needed this. Its not a computer, its a bunch of TV shows. My TiVO actually does a reasonable job of space management: I tell it to keep shows I want to keep and it fills the rest of the disk with "nice to have" shows. This is far simpler than a disk management (space free and directories) and UI arrangement and it does what I want.

- And I don't even want to get into network functionality.

Yeah this would be nice. Of course the Series 2 TiVO has this.

Ummm, the TiVo modifications (to any GPL software) are already available directly from TiVo.

They already have, man: http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html

I realize that this may be a bit off-topic, but does anyone know when regular dual-tuner TiVos may come along? Of course, I'm aware that dual tuner DirecTiVos already exist, but I'd rather not have to sign up for DirecTV just to get a dual-tuner TiVo :-/.

And for those who are about to ask "Well, why not just get DirecTV for the DirecTiVo?", I live in a townhome with a roommate. And, we'd need two additional receivers (for our respective tv cards in our rooms) in addition to the DirecTiVO in the living room, and that would make for a whole lot of coax cabling running through the apartment and up/down the stairs (since I don't want to drill holes, as it is an apartment).

Before posting "What does TiVo service offer?" just howzabout going to their website and looking it up for yourself? They do a lot better job then having a bunch of /.'ers put it in their own words. www.tivo.com

Next before saying "I can do that!" no, you really can't. Not in a nice box with a good remote and trick-play and quality recording with some exemplarily expert system software all hassle-free. Yes you can cobble together some Frankenstein of a solution that will get you 70%, mebbe 80% of the way there but it's those final few steps that make the whole thing a pleasure to use and not some annoyingly geeky custom half-solution.

Will we see these stand-alone devices superceded by PC-based ones? Mebbe, mebbe not. First off folks like to watch TV on their TVs, not on their computers (yes some of you don't, I'm talking the majority.) They want to sit on their couch with a remote in hand without cables strung across the house from the PC and be able to click the shows they want with minimum hassle. That doesn't describe most of the PC-based systems that we're hearing about.

Next there's the question is it preferable to make your great-as-a-PC PC do double-duty as a PVR? Sure the network connection is already there but in most cases the rest of the wiring (TV-in, TV-out, Audio out, IR-in, etc.) is a major PITA. Then there's just the hassle of having a heavy-load application running on your un-optimized hardware. Do-able? Mostly. Worth it? Likely not IMHO.

Lastly comes the question of the listings. This is where TiVo and the like really differ from a VCR - they're SMART. That smartness is based on having those current detailed listings customized to your local system & tier and no, that information isn't easy to come by. Yes it might be possible to try and snarf the listings out of TV Guide or someone but that's brittle and if enough folks did it they'd soon find ways to break it. Given that along with these listings come software updates and tech support and such it's likely that they're not all that bad a deal.

So - is TiVo gonna make it? Probably. They just got another round of financing, have lots of investment from the right folks, seem to be doing well in spite of the uphill battle of teaching folks just what their product is. The price hike isn't a great thing but with the lifetime-offer price still being offered for a short time that takes the sting out and once folks go TiVo they really don't want to go back, will pony up. Next fall we'll likely see more companies coming out with more licensed models and possibly another design but for now its TiVo & Replay.

An apparent example of this is TiVo.

Well, maybe not everyone already knew that TiVO uses a PPC even though you did, wise guy. But this does beg the question: if TiVO already uses PPC, why don't they just use Darwin? Wouldn't that mean that they could pick up some advantages, like Quick Time Streaming Server and robust Firewire support? (Forgive if Firewire is already robustly supported in Linux; that's not a troll, just ignorance.)

Matter of fact, there would be some interesting possibilities in a TiVO/Apple convergence...

The most replayed item in the superbowl, according to Tivo, was the britney spears commercial. (link to news story)So, perhaps if better commercials are made, then people will watch them over, and over, and over again...

"...they're making money on this goldmine that they're collecting and publishing reports about..."

Making money? Goldmine? I wish. TiVo is losing money hand over fist. My worst fear in that regard is that they don't find a way to turn a profit soon enough (and the capital markets haven't been too patient lately), my excellent TiVo box will turn into a boat anchor.

If you're so worried about the data TiVo gathers about you, just tell them to stop. Myself, I don't give a rat's ass that they know what people in my zipcode (or even my 9-digit zipcode) are watching.

Tivo explicitly promises not to use anything more specific than a zip code to identify your viewing details (see point 1.3 of their privacy policy); and that's nothing like as specific as you seem to think - unless everyone in Beverley Hills 90210 lives in the same house. Even UK postcodes aren't that precise: it's simply not true to say that "if i give my postcode to some companies they can tell exactly which house iam living in," unless your house is the size of a football pitch.

And if you don't want Tivo to collect your data at all, you can simply tell them not to. This is clearly stated in their terms and conditions - and indeed in the PrivacyWatch report you quote. Okay, you have to phone them, rather than pushing a button, but it's an offer they're under no obligation to make at all. And they even give you a toll-free number to call!

So I don't see any grounds for complaint. I mean, the users get a service they clearly love (see Slashdot stories passim) for a price they're happy to pay; the advertisers get invaluable data, freely given and broadly anonymous, again for a price they're happy to pay; and Tivo gets the revenue from both sides. Personally, I think that's wonderful. Tivo have managed to broker a stunning win-win business model, and best of luck to them.

Tivo explicitly promises not to use anything more specific than a zip code to identify your viewing details (see point 1.3 of their privacy policy); and that's nothing like as specific as you seem to think - unless everyone in Beverley Hills 90210 lives in the same house. Even UK postcodes aren't that precise: it's simply not true to say that "if i give my postcode to some companies they can tell exactly which house iam living in," unless your house is the size of a football pitch.

And if you don't want Tivo to collect your data at all, you can simply tell them not to. This is clearly stated in their terms and conditions - and indeed in the PrivacyWatch report you quote. Okay, you have to phone them, rather than pushing a button, but it's an offer they're under no obligation to make at all. And they even give you a toll-free number to call!

So I don't see any grounds for complaint. I mean, the users get a service they clearly love (see Slashdot stories passim) for a price they're happy to pay; the advertisers get invaluable data, freely given and broadly anonymous, again for a price they're happy to pay; and Tivo gets the revenue from both sides. Personally, I think that's wonderful. Tivo have managed to broker a stunning win-win business model, and best of luck to them.