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Lifetime subs are 300 now.

and they do provide it. It's at http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html.

No.

Link to Tivo Linux source code

As to my understanding, they aren't removing the source code from their website, which can be found at http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html. Instead, they are going after FTP websites hosting illegal images of their complete system, which doesn't break the GPL code. TiVo has copyrighted code, closed source code, in their system -- such as their nice on-screen guide. Because the people who run the FTP servers and such are redistributing these programs without TiVo's permission, they can go after them.

Fortress of Insanity

TiVo already offers GPL-based code on their website. The backup images being offered on other websites include the full OS and TiVo GUI, which aren't covered under GPL. So technically they have the right to shut these sites down, although, as mentioned, I think it's a shame as it could shut down the TiVo upgrade/white-hack community.

What, you mean like this source code?

Anyhow, I don't see how distribution of images is related to the GPL. The GPL doesn't require that TiVo provide binary versions of its software. Furthermore, just because TiVos are Linux-based, who says all of the software on a TiVo box is GPL'd? Surely they have their own proprietary programs on there that don't use GPL'd code, and those programs would not allowed to be distributed in TiVo disk images.

Maybe you're just trolling, and I should leave this be, but hey, the obvious sometimes needs to be said.

What you've said above applies to the desktop market, although you still overstate the case a bit.

On the server-side, however, Microsoft faces many challenges. If you don't believe me, head on over to netcraft and check out IIS's marketshare. In the machine room, Microsoft has lost a massive number of customers, many of them to Linux, others to Solaris and other Unices.

Considering how much money Microsoft has put into trying to win back this category I'd say they feel challenged. The fact that they fail to take back ground is an even better indicator.

In the engineering workstation and visualization sectors, Sun still has a pretty damn good foothold. These are not so much customers that Microsoft lost as ones it never had.

Hell, don't even get me started on Tivo vs. UltimateTV.

That said, I am not really a firm believer in Linux on the desktop. It is a powerful system for servers and more advanced computing, but I think it has a few thousand too many moving parts to make it as a general purpose, mom-and-pop desktop. I don't think Sun's offering will change this. I would much prefer to see the community build an OS with the consumer in mind from day one.

On the other hand, Hauppauge has WinTV-PVR and a google showed several articles refering to those devices as PVRs. So the "jury is still out", but "I see the tide turning", [[insert more sayings here]]

Also, you are sorta right about not knowing that is available with DVRs, I have seen them used and played with a couple (including my father's house), but I do not yet own one. I will (most likely) purchase one over the next year. I am a little confused over your comment that "they sell themselves to a giant Asian firm" and that being better than the hated Hollywood, but the price factor of ReplayTV might push me to that system.

As far as Digital cable sucking, well you must not have any experience with the best feature, on-demand, because the channel quide will start (predictably) at "1" (which is On-Demand). However, I don't use the channel quide in "full format", somtimes I use it to see which "reqular" movies are starting or to check my "favorites", otherwise it's a bit of a pain flipping through over a hundred channels on screen of (maybe) 10 titles at a time. However, mostly I like the show title which shows up even when it's on commercial (a must have for channel surfing). From that I can check that channel's shows for the rest of the night (and find out the "info").

I love it when the cool thing to do is bash popular movies, this dude will probably be the first person in line to say RotK sucks, whether it does or not.

Politicians are useless. Law enforcement bodies don't even have cyber-crime issues anywhere on their priority list, much less the resources to fight it.

I encourage the population to engage in a number of active efforts to negate the value all these advertisers have, and their tendency now to bombard us all into oblivion with their repetitive, misleading and obnoxious messages.

* When you get spam, report it to Spamcop. Don't even bother with cutting-and-pasting the html source, the web hosting companies of spammers don't care about complaints. Make sure the complaints go to the ISPs who manage the IP space the spammer is operating from. But more importantly, when you report spam to spamcop, the source gets immediately flagged as a spammer and thousands of systems around the world refuse to accept mail from the source. It's VERY effective and the sooner you report spam, the more effective it is. The crap messages don't even get to peoples' mail servers this way. It WORKS!

* Turn off your TV and refuse to let yourself be turned into a quivering ADHD blob with the constant barrage of commercial suggestions. If you must watch TV, do yourself a favor and get a TiVo (it will be the best money you ever spent) and record what you want, when you want, take back your life and best of all skip the commercials!

* If you're feeling the need to waste time complaining, send a letter to your congressman and senators telling them that if they don't put more resources into cyber-crime enforcement you'll make it the center of your life to ensure they can't get elected to anything ever again.

* Spread the word that the only realistic solution to spam is licensing outbound mail relays via a sanctioned body that is nowhere near as incompetent as ICANN. We need an opt-in, international SMTP mail relay whitelist with ethical rules for being included.

* If you've had any bad experiences with companies who've ripped you off, do us all a favor and put up a web page on it and list it with the search engines. Peoples' apathy towards getting railroaded encourges the continuation of these scams. Know someone who's been burned by home-mortgage scams? Publish it! Put it out there forever. Every little bit helps to educate the feebleminded populace,make them more skeptical of suggestions (as well as editorial packaged as "news") and negate the value of quantum advertising.

* Forget client-side e-mail filtering as a spam solution. It will never work and it is a black hole of resources, time and money. Filtering is good for viruses and idiots who still insist on clicking attachments, but it won't ever do much for the spam problem.

* Encourage your ISP to employ relay blacklisting to thwart spammers so they can't even connect to remote systems.

* If you still find yourself occasionally watching tv and are annoyed at misleading ad campaigns, do what I do: dial the 1-800 number repeatedly over the course of the commercial's airing, making the advertiser's efforts counterproductive and sending a message that you're tired of being bombarded, emotionally manipulated and lied to.

* Don't buy any products advertised in any manner in which you find offensive or annoying regardless of the quality/desireability of the product.

* If you still feel your penis isn't big enough, just go to the local store and buy some multi-vitamins or just deal with it. You don't need a bigger penis, newer car, a George Forman grill, closet organizer, no-money-down real estate, second mortgage, questionable mexican placebos packaged as drugs, or to see Holly hump a German Shephard. Pick up the phone and go hang out with friends who like you for who you are and don't buy into the media's constant message that you're inadequate and money will solve this.

Nuts to the $70 hack job. Tivo themselves sell a USB ethernet adapter that you can plug into the USB port on your Tivo, although I believe it only works with a series 2 model. The same adapter is also available elsewhere for $22.

You're brilliant!

From the second link:

• "It is possible to do the initial setup on a series 2 SA TiVo via Broadband without a landline."
  Do you know what SA means? Stand Alone. Did you miss all the times I referred to DirecTiVo? DirecTiVo != SA TiVo
• Same post: "You must use a supported USB to Ethernet adapter -- wireless broadband is not available until the TiVo updates its software to version 4 during one of the first calls following setup."
  So. You need to call on a phone line to get to v4. Hm. So, how does that get around the need for a land line, again?

Wow, simple. Thanks for posting.

Since TiVo just loves to send hardware out with ancient versions of the software.

They're up to, what, v4.0.1 now?

v1.3 was obsoleted June of 2001.

sorry to interrupt your holier-than-thou-ness, but this indeed does work for the initial call.

granted, you need a Series 2 unit and a wired-Ethernet USB dongle (wireless would most likely work as well if the V4+ software is pre-loaded), but that's a fairly common setup for someone buying a new TiVo and planning to use a broadband connection for it.

perhaps the pharmacy has refilled your ritalin, I would give them a call.

1/9/2003: TiVo Unveils New DVR Design That Supports HDTV.

You can purchase new music using the unit's built-in LCD display and hear it 'instantly'. No PC required.

It's always amazed me how high tech gadgets are marketed as being "not computers" when that's exactly what they are! Things like the "Earthlink Mailstation" that allows you to "check your e-mail without a computer". I'm pretty sure I've even seen advertizing for TiVo claiming that it wasn't a "computer". Amazingly, Joe Blow consumers seem to not even think of gaming consoles as computing devices! I realize that this is done so as not to scare away the technilogically illiterate, but I still reserve the right to incredulity every time these claims are made! Seriously, without computing technology how do people think these things work? Little men with pointy shoes and long beards reaching to their knees inside the case?

Google leads here
I think this link is in the end-user documentation near the GPL printout, but you'd've known that if you had a TiVo, so I assume you didn't because you don't.

I'm sure it'll do just as well as portable DVD players. Who are they kidding comparing something like that to an iPod?

I've always thought of video and audio as two completely different classes of product. Sure, the people who buy one buy the other, but CE companies always seem to ignore the fact that we actually use music completely differently from audio. The technology may be similar, but to assume that adding video to an ipod will make a better product just because it does more is quite ridiculous.

Supposedly Tivo is releasing an HD unit soon. I haven't heard many details on it lately, though, so maybe it has been delayed. Here is their orgional press release The article doesn't mention what type of outputs the HD Tivo will have, but it would be idiotic to not have at least component in/out, if not DVI.

I want to get my hands on one of these! I've got fairly decent storage as it is but this is such a cool concept, that if the drive away is truly at or under 3 bills, it's a winner with the working tech crowd... and hey it's a Linux device so that puts tux in even more corners of the gadjet guy's (or gals) homes.... Several of my fellow associates in the IS department are intrested in Linux but still do not have enough initiative to do more than install it but many of them do have a Tivo and I figure the same crowd would be intrested in a Mirra.... The Mirra site is slashed pretty bad, I wonder how easy it will be to update the Mirra software, and if they will make a cluster package for people who have a lot of data they want to keep online (aye Matee!)... Good find prostoalex!

TiVo was never meant to be unhackable. The box itself runs Linux. TiVo personnel also encouraged the hacking up to a point (they disapprove of, obviously, hacking it to get free service, and hacking it to get video streams off the box). Slashdot even covered this topic here.

The biggest TiVo hacks seem to be hard drive space upgrades, Web-based remote administration done via a Web server running on on the TiVo box.

Check out the Tivo FAQ, you don't HAVE to buy the service: "Without the TiVo service, a TiVo DVR has extremely limited functionality." Basically without the Tivo service, you don't get the program guide data and all the intelligent features TiVo has for automatically recording shows you like. Instead, you get a box that you have to manually program to record the channel+time+duration for the shows you want, exactly like a VCR.

And here is another reason for why this might be a LOT more interesting than a Tivo.

You can see Tivo's GPL compliance efforts for yourself: http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html

Actually, you're wrong. Buy a TiVo

TiVo does sell TiVos, which pretty much require a TiVo subscription so you can TiVo shows.

Minus some prop. stuff? That's a bit of an understatement, dontcha think?

It's just the kernel plus a few things standard utilities - i.e. the bare minimum they're required to make available. *None* of their own userland software is available, same as Tivo.

Anyone know if the FSF has expressed an opinion on this?

It's implied:

This use is somewhat controversial. Advocates of the GPL and the Free Software Foundation interpret the GPL more stringently to disallow the use of proprietary modules. On the other hand, Linus Torvalds has stated that proprietary loadable modules are acceptable.

Wonder if they'll ultimately be forced to release this code?

The GPLed source is here

I don't know why we let them get away with it all this time. For those who don't know, TiVo runs a modified version of Linux, which is protected by the GPL. Therefore, legally they have always been required to release their source. I guess the Slashdot crowd has always let them slide because they're jizzing their tighty whities over being able to watch 20 hours of Simpson's episodes in an afternoon. If we don't look out for our rights, no one will. Let's give 'em hell.

What are you talking about?

TiVo runs a modified version of Linux, which is protected by the GPL. Therefore, legally they have always been required to release their source.

TiVo has distributed source code for the version of the Linux kernel included in the devices for as long as I can remember.

Linux is GPL'ed, and tivo is in compliance with the GPL.

link

Isn't 2.1.x a development branch? I thought 2.0.x and 2.2.x were the stable branches... oh well.

It seems strange that TiVo would've gone with 2.1 instead of 2.2, but that's what they did...

bash-2.02# cat /proc/version
Linux version 2.1.24-TiVo-2.5 (build@buildmaster12) (gcc version 2.8.1) #8 Wed May 8 15:38:27 PDT 2002
bash-2.02#

According to this page, TiVo switched to 2.4 for Series 2. They most likely did this for the USB support (plug a USB Ethernet dongle into a Series 2 and it'll "phone home" over your broadband connection).

Check out Tivo's Linux page

Looks to me like they've been using 2.4 since Tivo Software version 3.0

The one from DirecTV is some kind of joint venture with TiVo and according to the press release will be out later this year.

The one from Dish is called the DishPVR 921 and may be out in August, if the lady who answers the phone at Dish was on the level.

DirecTV has a SD unit w/TiVo and the nice thing about it is that it stores the MPEG straight from the dish to the hard drive, there is no re-encoding. Hopefully, both of the upcoming HD PVR's will follow suit.

Of the two, I'd probably prefer the DirecTV/TiVo, just because I've heard so many great things about TiVo.

But only Dish offers pr0n channels that aren't PPV, so there isn't really any comparison. :)

Erm, TiVo's website boasts of a mere 510,000 subscribers. I must also point out that the TiVo was first released in 1999, which is closer to four years than six...

Splitting hairs, I know, but the facts are the facts.

And how would you enforce that part of the GPL in court? This haziness isn't the fault of Tivo, but rather of the FSF. Maybe as far as the company is concerned it takes several hours of labor at $50 an hour to get you that c.d. of code, so would have to pay $300?

Anyhoo, I think that everyone will just download the code off the website as it's there for free.

I don't see what this has to do with SCO. I read scodot.org for all the SCO news, not for some unrelated tosh about a piece of kit which is guaranteed to have the MPAA kicking your door down!

Tivo runs on Linux (get your Tivo code here), so this is a SCO story after all.

Some people thought you were kidding but you know and I know that you were being deadly serious, right buddy?

It sounds like a good idea, but most TiVo users who wanted to have more space or convert their collection to DVD have already figured out how to do so with minimal investment (TiVoNet, DVD-R, hard drive) -- much less than the price of this new TiVo.

Another reason I wouldn't buy one is that I know the HDTV-based models are due out sometime in the near future, so investing $1,200 in something that will be obsolete in 1-2 years seems like a bad idea.

Still, it's nice for brand new users who have never owned a PVR and don't know how to use telnet.

No, they don't. Read sections 2 and 3 of the GPL (version 2) again. Carefully. The FSF's short write-up on selling GPL'ed software might come as something of a surprise to some folks who've not taken the time to look into it.

Placing software under the GPL helps to ensure that it will remain free and that the author will retain the copyright, but it doesn't guarantee that anyone will come offering money to use it. So long as the next person/company down the line abides by the terms of the GPL regarding copyright notices and source code availability the original author isn't automatically entitled to any monetary compensation.

GPL'ed stuff has been a part of some commercial products for a while now. Bundling useful GPL stuff with a Non-GPL proprietary product is a way to provide customers with a set of useful tools which enjoy a wide base of support. WindRiver's V5.1 VxWorks RTOS development suite for SunOS/Solaris is a case in point. And it's perfectly OK under the GPL so long as there's a clear seperate between the GPL and Non-GPL code. GPL code can form the basis for a viable commercial product, even if the source must be readily available, since the number of people with the skills and/or resources to duplicate the derivative work will undoubtedly be much less than those who just want to make use of it without poking under the hood. And for those who do want to poke around, more power to them.

A good example of a commercial product built on Linux and GPL'ed code is Tivo. You can download the source and fiddle around with it if you want to. Has that stopped Tivo from making money? No. Do they pay royalties or other monies back to the original authors of the GPL'ed code? Only if they feel inclined to do so. I don't know if they do or not.

IMHO the LRP died not for lack of technical elegance or application potential, but more for lack of marketing inspiration. Placing a project under the GPL means that one must think about capitalizing on the free distribution and the exposure offered by the open source environment. It's my considered opinion that unless one is willing to offering consulting services, custom modifications, or a useful product in a nicely packaged form ready for use, then just GPL'ing something and expecting the bucks to start rolling in when someone else picks it up and runs with it is only somewhat less realistic than buying weekly lottery tickets and hoping to hit the jackpot.

The alternative, and naive, view that GPL means that it's all free (as in free beer), while wrong according to the FSF, is perhaps a more kindly and community-minded take on it. But it too will lead to starvation just as quickly as unrealistic expectations of income.

So if someone takes some GPL'ed code, modifies it to suit their needs, puts it on a nice silk-screened CD, writes a manual and makes money off of it, then so long as they also make the sources available to the purchaser and keep the copyright notices intact, about the only thing the original author can say is "Shucks, I should have thought of that".

Fair is fair; however, it is Linksys who is distributing the programs in binary form to begin with. They cannot simply provide a copy of the GPL in the documentation with their product and say that this covers "all GPL code distributed with this product" without themselves identifying what software the product contains which falls under the GPL. Here, check out the TiVO website for an example of how it's done.

-renard

80hr refurb for $249 is on special right now....

To activate it on the Tivo, you need to pay an extra $99. So what's this about comparing prices?

Tivo uses linux and has not released source code either.

However, the GPL is in the appendix of the manual.

Sorry - not true.
http://www.tivo.com/linux/index.html

And at the same time they release this.

www.google.com had no trouble finding one, "refurbished tivo" immediately yields http://www.tivo.com/2.7.asp

Don't pay extra for more space, swapping the hard drives or adding a second drive is tremendously easy.

I love my TiVo, but I get the impression ReplayTV is more of a geek's toy. I'm surprised they are always mentioned less in these PVR articles.

I just thought I should point out that most of the people who are quoting you $400 for a TiVo unit are quoting you the retail price for a standalone TiVo. Now what savvy Slashdot shopper actually pays retail? :P

The HDVR2 DirecTiVo is $199 if you're a current DirecTV subscriber. Just call DirecTV at 1-800-DIRECTV and request it. That's $199 installed, I might add.

If you're not a current DirecTV subscriber, you can get an HDVR2, a dual LNB dish, and have the whole damn thing installed for $219. Check American Satellite for more.

If you want to stick with digital cable (bleh, why?!) and wish for a standalone TiVo, all you have to do is go to TiVo.com and click on the Buy TiVo link. There you'll see 80GB TiVos for $249. (Note that the DirecTV TiVos can record more programs on an 80GB drive than the standalone TiVos set at Best quality, so don't let that affect your buying decision.)

Finally, if you're interested in video extraction, you can hack the TiVo. If you're not interested in hacking your TiVo, just do what I did: I set up an ATI All-In-Wonder card and hooked it up to the second input of my TiVo. I then used the "Save to VCR" function to archive shows. With a CD burner, I can burn to VCD... if you have a DVD burner, you can burn direct to DVD. "Save to VCR" comes with your TiVo, works well, and doesn't require hacking your TiVo. It makes archiving video a cinch.

When it's all said and done, you could buy two standalone TiVos for less than what you're paying, or opt for the DirecTV option and pay LESS for a TiVo, installation, and 6-8 months of DirecTV service... and you don't have to do any more work other than clicking a couple buttons on American Satellite's website. When you look at it this way, building your own doesn't make much sense!

An 80 hour (refurb) Tivo Series 2 for $250

A 40 hour Replay5040 (refurb) WITH Lifetime Subscription for $330

Share and enjoy.. I prefer Tivo for its UI, however the sharing/extraction of the Replay is very nice as well.

You mean, TiVo's Home Media Option isn't that much different than Replay's feature. From TiVo's Home Media Option Page you see that it consists of:
1) Digital Music
2) Remote Scheduling
3) Digital Photos
4) Multi-Room Viewing

Sure, (1) isn't part of ReplayTV, but the rest are, and its free, whereas TiVo charges an additional fee for these features. And it's been around, Home Media Option only became avaliable not too long ago.

I would undoubtedly buy another ReplayTV unit regardless of the outcome of the Commercial Avance Feature. Plus, I've read posts from many ReplayTV users who own TiVos _AS WELL_ and praise ReplayTV's for their superior video encoding. And lets not get into TiVo's daunting menu's.

-rtv owner

>- No install of Linux, software, libraries

Run that by me again, I seem to be misunderstanding...

>- no install of cards

uhhhuhhh...

>- Customer support if you cant figure out how to plug it into your TV (the truely braindead)

And RedHat doesn't offer any?

>- Comes with all the cables

So does a computer with a TV Capture board pre-installed...

You can buy a computer setup already for the brain-dead. I never really did get the TiVO thing... especially the monthly subscription deal. Blech!