ReplayTV DVR to Remove Features

KarlTheGhoul writes "D&M Holdings Inc. on Tuesday said its new ReplayTV digital television recorder will not include controversial features such as automatically skipping commercials and sharing shows via the Internet." This is a confirmation of our earlier story. Their new ad slogan will be "Costs More, Less Useful".

Comments

I will buy a Tivo

[stonebeat.org]

In that case I will buy a Tivo

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Noksagt]

Fair enough, though Tivo doesn't include either of these features! I guess that means they won't "take them away from you," but perhaps you won't be getting as much as you think you'll get.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

First they came for the 30-second skip feature, and I didn't speak up beacuse I'm not a theif...

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

I am also wondering, if he was going to stash something at the north pole in case he forgot how to fly or something wouldnt it be more super hero like to have some kind of super plane in an ice hangar there instead of a dodge... Who builds roads to the arctic anyway?? And would rear-wheel drive be appropriate in that situation?

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[dprior]

They (Tivo's) do have a 30 second skip feature that you have to "unlock". During a playback of a recording, press "Select, Play, Select, 3, 0, select". This turns the "skip to tick mark" button into a 30 second skip.

You must re-enter the code every time the Tivo reboots (software upgrade or power loss).

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[jared_hanson]

Fair enough, though Tivo doesn't include either of these features!

That is right (apart from enabling things with secret codes). Now, with the feature set roughly the same, the decision comes down to the merits of each product, which TiVo wins hands down, in my opinion.

A long time TiVo owner and DVR enthusiast, TiVo is much easier to use in terms of interface. Plus TiVo, as a company, is generally friendly to the hacker community.

I glad the time has finally come that people can post about how much they like their TiVos without people flaming them about how ReplayTV has all these really cool, but legally questionable features (please no rants about legality).

TiVo has long been primary concerned with giving users what they want with a friendly interface and keeping itself on this side of a legal minefield. ReplayTV, in contrast, seemed to focus its selling point on its advanced feature set, despite of the lawsuits being fired at them from every angle. It should have focused on competing with TiVo from a usability perspective. Now, however, it may be too late, as TiVo is well ahead of them in every aspect now that these features will not be available. TiVo has an incredible interface and network media capability with Home Media Option, while ReplayTV is left without the slick interface.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[BigBir3d]

80hr refurb for $249 is on special right now....

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[stevew]

Haven't used TIVO, but I've found the replay inteface easy enough. Heck, even my wife can use it - and she definately CAN'T program the VCR.

I specifically bought the Replay for the commercial advance feature, and I enjoy it a whole bunch. That being said - the bit about Tivo being Hacker friendly may be true, but they aren't consumer friendly. Wasn't there an article just last week saying that they are selling user information?????? Replay explicitly won't do that - I find that "consumer friendly!"

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Mindwarp]

This was beaten to death with a large stick in the TiVo article, but at the risk of repeating all that...

TiVo's business model always included the (future) sale of viewers watching statistics. They never tried to hide this. There's no identifying information in any of the viewer demographic information supplied to TiVo by your box, and hey if you don't like them selling that information then you just call up their support people and tell them to take you off that list! Again, TiVo have been completely up-front and honest with all of this information.

Sometimes there's no conspiracy, no matter how hard you look.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[ivanmarsh]

In that case...
I already have a VCR.

Automagical commercial removal was the only good reason to buy one of these things.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop supporting these closed source companies that use Linux and don't contribute anything back other than the bare minimum to be compliant with the GPL (if that). Build a PVR with MythTV. If more people start using it and helping with developing it then it'll quickly leave Tivo and ReplayTV in the dust.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[AKnightCowboy]

Don't forget $299 for the lifetime-of-the-machine subscription fee and the $99 "Home Media" option. $249+299+99 = $647. Plus you're buying a refurbished unit! It's another $100 for the non-refurb 80 GB box so $747 for 80 gigs of storage and a lifetime (of the Tivo, not you, is it even transferable if you sell it on eBay?). For that kind of money I can build quite a monster of a PC that can do the exact same thing and have ten times more functionality.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

I love the magic math that comes into these calculations. Well...guess what arrived on my doorstep? A refurb ReplayTV 5040 with lifetime subscription that has commercial advance AND show sending. Cost: $292.49 shipped.

Build a PVR with that budget!

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

ReplayTV has this and more. For example, you can press 2 and then skip to skip 2 minutes. When was the last time you saw a 30 second commercial break?

Anyway, I doubt this will be phased out, since "Tivo has it too."

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Brad the Informer]

Please stop supporting these closed source companies that use Linux and don't contribute anything back other than the bare minimum to be compliant with the GPL (if that). Build a PVR with MythTV.

Please stop supporting these proprietary food companies like ADM (Supermarket to the World!) that use generic foodstuffs like corn and don't contribute back anything to biologic diversity.

Raze your house, buy a plow, AND FARM!

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[ralphus]

Please stop supporting these closed source companies that use Linux and don't contribute anything back other than the bare minimum to be compliant with the GPL (if that). Build a PVR with MythTV. If more people start using it and helping with developing it then it'll quickly leave Tivo and ReplayTV in the dust.

A buddy of mine just wrote up some great instructions for getting MythTV going on Redhat 9. This should make it real easy.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[BigBir3d]

Freevo is nice... my roommate made one. Parent poster was talking about TiVo though.

Re:I will buy a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Tivo does offer the feature of sharing video over your broadband network http://www.tivo.com/4.9.asp.

Even less features.

[svenjob]

Now it has even less fearues with which to compete with TiVo. Way to go!

Re:Even less features.

[Anonymous Coward]

it's "fewer features"

use "less" when talking about a quantity of something that is not in finite pieces ... "less flour" "less water".

use fewer when addressing finite items ... "fewer cars" "fewer flour particles"

Re:Even less features.

[Anonymous Coward]

every day, fewer and fewer people use the English language properly.

and every post, people like you less and less because you're such a pompus cock head.

Re:Even less features.

[untaken_name]

every day, fewer and fewer people use the English language properly.

and every post, people like you less and less because you're such a pompus cock head.

Yeah, if I ever find out who that Anonymous Coward person is, I'm gonna open up a big can of whoopass on 'em. Pompous cock head is a great insult though.

Re:Even less features.

[svenjob]

Juggling four languages in your head while typing and trying to be 100% correct and formal in an informal forum = Challenging.

Re:Even less features.

[PhxBlue]

I didn't know TiVo had fearues in the first place! :)

Just wait

[The Bungi]

I think that eventually the average consumer will be clued in to things like these and the manufacturers will start feeling the pain. So we'll either have to go with an "illegal" solution, or the folks who make this products will give Big Media the finger. It's all downhill from there...

Re:Just wait

[KrispyKringle]

I don't know. People have been predicting the downfall of the mainstream media for a while for the same reasons. My feeling is that people never notice what is bad unless their is an alternative. People don't say "wow, our society could be so much better if...", they say "wow, our society isn't nearly as good as..." or, in this case, "wow, my TiVo doesn't do nearly as much as so-and-so's..."

The reason that peope have largely lashed back at Big Music is because there is a clear alternative which applies not just to consumers' sense of moral wrongitude, but their pocketbooks: Kazaa, Gnutella, or what-have-you. Until people see the alternative that they aren't supposed to know about, just the abstracted idea of not being able to do something that the technology does allow isn't going to catch the public's attention much.

Look at how people seem to feel about Big Music. Reading that ABC News article about the RIT student who settled with the RIAA by paying them $12,000, I was truly surprised at how openly critical of the RIAA the article seemed to be, at least, for another member of Big Media, so to speak. It's not that there's a whole open political movement, but rather that so many people, including, most likely, the ABC News correspondent, simply share music files and the RIAA has made anyone who shares files their enemy, quite publicly. They made the consumers the enemy, not the other way around.

So why will there be no immediate lash back at Big Media for restricting things like the TiVo? Because whats the illegal alternative? What free software are people going to download onto their box-top sets out of self-interest which will essentially make them unwitting enemies of Big Media? There is none; short of complicated and risky hardware-hacking, people won't be exposed to what they are missing.

If one TiVo-type product is available in the store with ad-skipping, and the other without, sure, there'll be a preference. But if people are never presented with the option? Then there will be no complaints. Just don't let them see what they're missing and no one is the wiser.

Re:Just wait

[DougMackensie]

Reading that ABC News article about the RIT student who settled with the RIAA by paying them $12,000, I was truly surprised at how openly critical of the RIAA the article seemed to be, at least, for another member of Big Media, so to speak.
The student went to the other NY nerd factory, RPI. ;)

Re:Just wait

[KrispyKringle]

erm, yeah, *cough*cough*. I knew that. I considered linking to the article, in true Slashdot fashion, but I figured most of you would know what I was talking about anyway. And its not the amount of "a href" tags which make a good post, its the amount of heart. Or something.

Re:Just wait

[eison]

If one TiVo-type product is available in the store with ad-skipping, and the other without, sure, there'll be a preference.

Nope.
There was, it was called ReplayTV. And, people still preferred TiVo. I can't explain it, but there you have it.

Re:Just wait

[The_K4]

As a former RIT student I say "What other tech school in Upstate NY?" :)

Re:Just wait

[Anonym0us Cow Herd]

[...good argument about lack of clear alternatives....]

Look what happened with mp3's. When the technology was to the point where everyone could use it, then everyone did.

Video is bigger and more difficult to do.

Still, I would suppose it is just a matter of time before anyone can get a fairly standard PC with fairly standard hardware, download a "live" bootable Linux CD with the necessary beautiful user interface, and have an instant PVR. This would save video to their existing FAT32 or NTFS partition. Then you remove the CD, reboot, and joe consumer is back in his precious Windows environment.

This scenerio seems most likely to me. It must be simple before joe average can do it. Just because super computer geek can do it doesn't mean much except that it makes a good conversation piece for joe consumer who is a friend of super computer geek. To get joe consumer to do this, it must be as easy as downloading a CD, and not messing with their sacred Windows installation.

This also has nice side effects....

• Raises awareness of Linux. (Hey, this Linux stuff is pretty cool! It lets me record my TV programs using standard hardware. Nice friendly interface too.)
• Gives consumers the PVR tool that they want, which ReplyTV and SonicBlue can't sell, and Tivo won't sell.
• Might compete on some level with Windows media pc's.

If it were this easy, average consumers would do it. It would be just like the whole mp3 vs. RIAA thing all over again.

Re:Just wait

[greenhide]

Still, I would suppose it is just a matter of time before anyone can get a fairly standard PC with fairly standard hardware, download a "live" bootable Linux CD with the necessary beautiful user interface, and have an instant PVR. This would save video to their existing FAT32 or NTFS partition. Then you remove the CD, reboot, and joe consumer is back in his precious Windows environment.

I claim the patent on this.

Re:Just wait

[betsywetsy]

Well, duh.
You had to buy the lifetime subscription up front
for the ReplayTV, at least when I was shopping.
I haven't thought twice about ReplayTV since I bought my sweet, sweet TiVo, so I don't know if
this has changed since. And I don't miss commercial
skipping - the 60x fast forward is a fine alternative - although I have to admit I don't always stop it at the right moment - need to adjust the bounce-back time...

Re:Just wait

[Mindwarp]

It's a nice thought, and I'd certainly like it to happen, but I suspect it won't.

You see, there are still a lot of Joe Consumers in this world that don't have a PC, and won't ever consider getting one.

However, these same Joe Consumers would feel perfectly comfortable in buying a silver VCR sized box that sits next to their satellite/cable decoder box and works entirely from one simple remote control unit.

The whole question of technological acceptance hinges almost entirely on price and form-factor. Average Joe Consumer just doesn't care about advanced feature set or Geek-Chic.

Re:Just wait

[matvei]

Still, I would suppose it is just a matter of time before anyone can get a fairly standard PC with fairly standard hardware, download a "live" bootable Linux CD with the necessary beautiful user interface, and have an instant PVR. This would save video to their existing FAT32 or NTFS partition. Then you remove the CD, reboot, and joe consumer is back in his precious Windows environment.

You mean something like Movix?

Re:Just wait

[telstar]

"Still, I would suppose it is just a matter of time before anyone can get a fairly standard PC with fairly standard hardware, download a "live" bootable Linux CD with the necessary beautiful user interface, and have an instant PVR. This would save video to their existing FAT32 or NTFS partition. Then you remove the CD, reboot, and joe consumer is back in his precious Windows environment."

• Umm... The beauty of a PVR is that it's always on and recording content while you're living your life. (I know that "living your life" thing may be new to some readers here). Anyway, I don't want to power down my PVR in-between uses. I want it recording "Rocky XII" while I'm out having fun.

Re:Just wait

[cyril3]

I'm really not trying to be a grammar troll but whats with the 'lashed back at'

Backlash is a perfectly acceptable usage, isn't it?

Your alternative is more complex for no real clarity gain as far as I can see.

Re:Just wait

[cyril3]

Apart from that I agree with your points.

Re:Just wait

[pod]

People have been predicting the downfall of the mainstream media for a while for the same reasons. My feeling is that people never notice what is bad unless their is an alternative.

There is almost always an alternative. People don't notice (or care) when the current situation is pervasive. It's the 'no one changes the defaults' problem. So unless it's something you care about or that visibly affects you, it doesn't matter how bad it is or how many alternatives there are.

Re:Just wait

[Anonym0us Cow Herd]

You see, there are still a lot of Joe Consumers in this world that don't have a PC, and won't ever consider getting one.

These people probably are not the RIAA's big problem with mp3's either. They are not who I was talking about.

well

[karma-whoring]

can't skip commercials? guess I'll have to skip buying their product. time-shift would still let you fastforward through - just start watching your program 30mintues later so you have an ad buffer.

Re:well

[stanmann]

Well Indeed. And allegedly the Automagic commercial skip was broken anyway, causing portions of the show to be lost anyway.

Re:well

[sacherjj]

I get through 3 minutes of commercials on the TiVo at 60x. That takes 3 seconds. I actually get to see a few frames of each commercial. This is enough to stop and view things I actually want to see, such as ads for new shows or movie trailers, etc. The hardware on Replay is better than TiVo (component outputs, etc.) Unfortunately, the software is pathetic compared with the UI and features on TiVo. For a PVR device, TiVo just works so much better.

Re:well

[petong]

Well Indeed. And allegedly the Automagic commercial skip was broken anyway, causing portions of the show to be lost anyway.

This is not true. The ad skip feature would only advance on playback, not record, so the commercials were kept on the hard drive. You could turn this feature on and off with the remote control as well.

Re:well

[patchmaster]

ReplayTV has always had a 30-second advance button. From everything I've read, there's no intention to remove this. It's not as good as having the commercials automagically skipped, but it's not far off and it's much better than trying to time the fast-forward.

Re:well

[randyest]

No, you can still skip commercials on current and future replayTVs, just not automagically (and, BTW, that automagic skipping, called commercial advance never deleted anything -- it skips ads in the display stream, but all skipped scenes are still always recorded, never deleted, and you can turn off CA to see them, if you like.)

It's important to note that these features (automagic commercial advance and internet show sharing) are not being removed from existing replayTV models (50xx and prior), rather they are just not being included in new ones. The other commercial-skipping feature, called 30-second advance will be included on new replayTV models. This lets you jump 30 seconds ahead instantly with one button, or n * 30 seconds ahead with 2 buttons (integer then skip). Tivo has a similar feature in hidden form, which is not enabled by default (but easy to do -- 6 keys I believe on every Tivo reboot), and is not quite as powerful (no integer multiples jump). Both machines, of course, have variable-speed fast-forward (up to really, really fast), and quick 5-7 second reverse-jump features.

So, I expect a rush on 5040's (the cheapest model with the least storage, which is the best deal since upgrading to more/larger drives is so easy) culminating in incredible eBay price-gouging when they become really scarce. I wonder if D&M will set a time-limit of some kind on activating old 50xx models to prevent this?

Mac Heads, rejoice!

[Anonymous Coward]

Their new ad slogan will be "Costs More, Less Useful".

Hey, isn't that Apple's mission statement?

Re:Mac Heads, rejoice!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention Sun's and Microsoft's.

Who needs it then?

[Brown Eggs]

I might as well buy a VCR then :) Just kidding - I think turning your computer into a "Tivo" is much better than paying for a separate device to do all these things.

Re:Who needs it then?

[chmilar]

The nice thing about ReplayTV and Tivo is that they are "appliances". You buy it, take it home, plug it in, and it just works. It does it's one task very well, and you don't have to worry about it.

The "bonus" has turned out to be the "hack-ability" of both Replay and Tivo. You can easily upgrade to larger hard drives. The networked models allow shows to be copied to a computer.

A PC-based PVR will be even more flexible, but it is not yet a consumer-level "appliance".

Re:Who needs it then?

[The_K4]

And it has to be left ON. A tivo that's plugged in powers it self on at the right time and starts recording. When I had a capture card/software on my PC my biggest issue was turning it off when I went out, and realizing later I should have left it on. It's nice to have a morwe robust solution that i can set it and forget it.

Re:Who needs it then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you turn your computer off in the first place?

Re:Who needs it then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why turn off the computer???
Well, if all it's doing is using up electricity then why leave it on?

Re:Who needs it then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Less wear and tear on internals with power surges at bootup, my computers have been on 24/7 for years on end now, all computers in my dwelling remain powered up.

At idle your computer is using about the power of a light bulb so it's not a great drain on your pocket book.

Failure ahead for Replay...

[pir8garth]

This only effect's their new product line, but the article says that it's older models will be produced with those features still in tact. It sounds like they are just trying to please the networks, and not the customers. If you ask me, they are setting themselves up for a big let-down in the number of sales, but by the same token, Tivo doesn't have these features to start with, and is doing extremely well...

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[mh_tang]

Go read their service agreement. It says that anyone who buys the service agrees that features may be added or removed at any time. And of course, buying the box without service gets you nothing more than a doorstop.

If Replay drops these features in the 5500 series, it will just create a very hot secondary/used market for the older 5000 models that still have Commercial Advance & Send Show features.

So in my opinion, there's the possibility that they not only remove these features from new units, but also retroactively from the older 4000 and 5000 series also. Potentially very bad news for people who have shelled out $250 for a lifetime subscription recently...

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Zathrus]

Tivo doesn't have these features to start with, and is doing extremely well...

I'm a TiVo advocate, but honestly, I wouldn't say they're doing "extremely well". They're yet to turn a profit, although the quarterly losses are dropping at a nice rate and their subscriber base continues to increase.

That said, TiVo does have these features... kind of. There's a secret code to turn 30-second skip on (Stop Play Stop 3 0 on the main TiVo menu IIRC). It's not quite as extensive as the newer automatic commercial Skip Replay gave you, but it's the same as their skip button on the remote.

As for show sharing, with HMO (yes, an additional cost) you can share between any TiVos that are on the same TiVo account and subnet. It's considerably more restrictive than Replay's offering, but it's also going to keep TiVo from being sued into bankruptcy. Twice. And it works quite well for what it is -- my wife and I use it all the time between our TiVos and it's great. Most of the TiVo users in the know are still hoping for collaborative scheduling between TiVos, but that's a ways off.

The issue for D&M is, what are they going to offer instead? Their pricing isn't cheaper (you can now get a brand new 80 hour TiVo for $299, or a refurb for $249), they don't have as many features (especially if you get HMO for an additional $99 or $49), and their software is buggier. I guess we'll see.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Nix0n]

This only effect's their new product line
but the article says that it's older models

Jesus Christ, man, have you no shame at all ?

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[ncc74656]

As for show sharing, with HMO (yes, an additional cost) you can share between any TiVos that are on the same TiVo account and subnet. It's considerably more restrictive than Replay's offering, but it's also going to keep TiVo from being sued into bankruptcy. Twice.

Better yet, with older (Series 1) TiVos, you can rip the video and do whatever you want with it...send it to someone over the Internet (as the original MPEG-2 or as something more space-efficient like XviD), burn it to SVCD or DVD, etc. The software to do this is getting better all the time...now it rips straight to an MPEG-2 program stream. With the right settings, you could burn directly to DVD or SVCD.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[sacherjj]

If Replay drops these features in the 5500 series, it will just create a very hot secondary/used market for the older 5000 models that still have Commercial Advance & Send Show features.

This is shown by the used Series 1 TiVos that are still being sold at incredible prices, because they have much more capabilities to hack the software than the Series 2 boxes.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[zsmooth]

There's a secret code to turn 30-second skip on (Stop Play Stop 3 0 on the main TiVo menu IIRC).

Actually it's Select-Play-Select-3-0-Select. I've only ever tried it while something is playing, I doubt it works from the Main Menu.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[poot_rootbeer]

I know someone who works for Tivo, and according to that person the Tivo boxes at one time during development did have a working 30-second-skip-commercial feature, but user testing showed that few people used it, and there were preferred alternative methods of getting the same effect. So the feature was dropped from the codebase.

I wouldn't be surprised if ReplayTV is using a similar justification.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Anonymous Coward]

This only effect's

"affects"

their new product line,

comma join

but the article says that it's

"its"

older models will be produced with those features still in tact.

"intact", one word

It sounds like they are just trying to please the networks, and not the customers.

Wow, no errors in that one.

If you ask me,

We didn't.

they are setting themselves up for a big let-down

"letdown", one word, no hyphen

in the number of sales,

comma join

but by the same token, Tivo doesn't have these features to start with, and is doing extremely well...

Factually incorrect.

Score -1, Illiterate

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[mh_tang]

Looks like original poster was correct. Current models 4000 and 5000 from ReplayTV will retain all the features which will be removed from the 5500's. From http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topN ews&storyID=2907265:

UPDATE 1-ReplayTV strips ad skipping in new DVR models
Tue June 10, 2003 01:44 PM ET (Adds details on other models) NEW YORK, June 10 (Reuters) - D&M Holdings Inc.6735.T on Tuesday said its new ReplayTV digital television recorder will not include controversial features such as automatically skipping commercials and sharing shows via the Internet.

Due in August, the new ReplayTV 5500 series will remove the "Commercial Advance" and "Send Show" options present in models that are currently for sale. Digital video recorders (DVR) save hundreds of hours of TV programs to a hard drive and allow users to pause live TV and instantly replay selected scenes.

When ReplayTV in 2001 introduced its 4000 series of DVRs, those services upset major media players such as Viacom Inc. VIAb.N and the TV networks, which sued SONICblue, ReplayTV's previous owner, claiming that the service violated copyrights and robbed them of advertising revenue.

All other currently available models will retain the commercial skipping and Internet-sharing features. Competitive products made by TiVo Inc. TIVO.O and EchoStar Communications Corp.'s DISH.O Dish Network do not have these features.

ReplayTV said the new devices will include updated software that allows users to skip reruns, eliminate programming conflicts and "Pause and Resume," where a viewer can halt a saved program playing on a ReplayTV box in one room, and finish watching that same program on a device in another room.

It will also feature buttons that let users manually fast forward through recorded programs, if they choose.

ReplayTV was purchased earlier this year by Japan's D&M Holdings, parent company to premium audio and video brands Denon and Marantz.

A ReplayTV spokeswoman said that pricing has not yet been determined for the new machine.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Tayknight]

007-373-5963

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[patchmaster]

While they legally could remove those features in current models, D&M has already publicly stated they will not do so.

I'm sure this feature change is just an attempt to play nice with big media. As a practical issue, the loss of show sharing is not likely to be that big a deal for most people. It's always been of use only to those with broadband internet and a lot of patience. Now the people who want to share will have to snag the show off the ReplayTV with their computer and file share with those interested in the show. Not a big loss.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[dtfarmer]

That said, TiVo does have these features... kind of. There's a secret code to turn 30-second skip on

No it doesn't. Commercial Advance is a feature where commercials are skipped automatically without you even pressing a button on the remote. Nothing like that on a Tivo. ReplayTV also has a 30-second skip button on the remote (you don't have to remember some arcane code each time you reset/unplug your ReplayTV, and you don't lose the functionality of one button on your remote to reprogram it to be a 30-second skip button - and on the subject of secret codes/hacks, go look at DVArchive - it blows the doors off any hack I've seen for DVR's thus far and it runs on all platforms to boot!)

Sending a movie across the internet has no equal on a Tivo. In fact, in order to share a movie locally on a Tivo, you have to pay a fee for each Tivo you want to share with - so a minimum of two fees. Not only that, but if I've heard right, you can't just watch a show that's on another Tivo, it has to be sent across the network and stored on the second Tivo's HD taking up 2x the storage.

How does ReplayTV's in-home sharing work? First, no added fees - nothing, nada. Second, choose a show off any ReplayTV in the house and it starts playing instantly. It streams the show as you play it, so you don't have to wait, and it doesn't take up drive space on the second machine.

The next upgrade to the service promises to keep separate markers for each unit so that if I watch half a show in the front room, then decide to finish in the bedroom, I can tell it I want to start from where I left off in the front room. It will allow scheduling a record on any ReplayTV in the house.

they don't have as many features (especially if you get HMO for an additional $99 or $49)

huh? I can think of only 1 feature that Tivo w/HMO has that can't be done on a ReplayTV, that's streaming mp3's. What other features am I missing?

Quick pricing rundown from the tivo and replaytv sites:

Service
TiVo: $299 lifetime or $12.95/mo
ReplayTV: $250 lifetime, $9.95/mo* (after June 16th, $299 lifetime or $12.95/mo)
*customers paying $9.95/mo will only be moved to $12.95/mo if they let their service lapse and then reactivate later

Units
40 hour: Tivo, $249 - ReplayTV $299 ($50 rebate thru 6/15)
80 hour: Tivo, $349 - ReplayTV $399 ($50 rebate thru 6/15)
160 hour: Tivo, n/a - ReplayTV $499 ($50 rebate thru 6/15)
Refurb: Tivo 80hr $249 - ReplayTV 40hr w/lifetime activation $329
HMO: Tivo, $99 - ReplayTV, included free

So right now, ReplayTV's are same price as Tivo's w/o HMO and cheaper if you buy the lifetime service, or HMO. After the 16th, They will be $50 more than a Tivo w/o HMO and $50 cheaper than one w/HMO - Maybe I'm not seeing the forest for the trees, but it looks to me like ReplayTV's are competitive in both price and features, even if commercial advance and send show features are removed...

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[vaylen]

You are right. Tivo isn't doing well. No PVR is doing well. While they all fight for the scraps in this dinky market, it is dying out from under them. With DVD recorders coming down in price and with functionality closer to traditional VCR's, they are poised to kill the PVR market because the old folks can't wrap their mind around time shifting. They understand concepts like recording onto a physical thing they can remove from the machine and stack on a shelf. They barely understood VCR's until the VCR+ Guide game out, and DVD recorders pander to this limited understanding.

As far as Replay being sued into bankruptcy twice. You MIGHT argue once, but that's a pretty lame excuse for Tivo to use to not include such groundbreaking and enjoyment-enhancing features as commercial skip and show sharing. I can't believe how some people will flaunt the limitations of their device and extol the controls of their parent company as if it were a virtue. "In my country you can't fileshare, but that's a good thing because I know my goverment does it because they care about me and don't want mean laywers to come and get me in trouble". This WILL create a hot market for older Replay boxes which support these features. Sharing shows with buddies is a great, great thing. I've seen many an episode I've missed because of this feature. Maybe with SonicBlue no longer in control, PlanetReplay.com will be able to get their buddy sharing requests back up (fingers crossed).

One last thing: Speaking of a 30 second advance button in the same context as a commercial skip feature is like saying a DVD player has fast forward because it has chapter advance. They do similar things, but they are not anywhere near the same feature. When commercial advance works (which is about 80%-85% of the time in my experience) you can watch a show without even being near the remote and never see a commercial. And when it doesn't work, it usually doesn't work for that show at all, so you can just treat it like the feature is turned off. I guess it's a shame they're taking it out, but I have mine, so the people who weren't early adopters are the real victims I guess.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you're saying you cannot do any of those things with a new Tivo? So much for my idea
to buy a tivo.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I can beat Mike Tyson

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[AKnightCowboy]

While they legally could remove those features in current models, D&M has already publicly stated they will not do so.

And big corporations would never lie would they? Of course they're going to remove these features if they can easily do it. All it'll take is a little more pressure from the TV execs and they'll be history. D&M doesn't have time to play penny-ante politics over a userbase they picked up at a fire sale.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[crumley]

You can, its just more difficult.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Anonymous Coward]

This only effect's their new product line

Jesus fucking christ! First of all, there should be no apostrophe in there. Second, it's 'affects', not 'effects'. Fucking illiterate morons.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Zathrus]

No it doesn't. Commercial Advance is a feature

Wow, way to read the rest of the paragraph! I explictly stated that the automatic advance is unavailable on TiVo's.

It streams the show as you play it, so you don't have to wait, and it doesn't take up drive space on the second machine.

Woop de do. TiVo streams as well. And queues. I can request as many programs to be sent over from any number of HMO enabled TiVos and it'll queue up the requests and transfer them. Yes, it takes up space. It also allows me to start the transfer from the current point (useful for finishing off a program in another room), or from the start. And I still have full trick play capability -- FF, RW, skip back, skip forward, all up to wherever it is in the current buffer. You can't do that with Replay -- either that or it is using HD space. Pick one. Not to mention one of the other issues with Replay, that it won't record live TV while watching another show.

Oh, and network problems? CPU load? Non-issues for TiVo. If either recorder on Replay has issues on either one, you may as well forget it since it's all realtime.

huh? I can think of only 1 feature that Tivo w/HMO has that can't be done on a ReplayTV, that's streaming mp3's. What other features am I missing?


Wishlists, advanced searches, filtering by genre, better conflict resolution, and list of shows recorded/not recorded (and why)/deleted.

If you do like MP3s then HMO is worth it for that alone -- a Replay Receiver on eBay is the same price as the initial HMO purchase ($99) and additional HMO purchases are only $49. HMO gives you the same functionality, plus far better web access to TiVo (updates occur every 15 minutes via TiVo Central on broadband, versus once a day with Replay).

Your price is also off slightly - an 80 hour TiVo is currently $299, since they just instituted a $50 discount. But that literally happened Monday, so I'd be surprised if you had that info. As for a 160 hour TiVo -- well, sorry, closest I can do is 180 hour. For $499. That price may drop $50 in the near future to reflect TiVo's recent price drop. Of course, you can buy a 40 or 80 hour TiVo and upgrade it quickly and easily yourself if you are comfy with it... I've done several myself without issues.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[SealBeater]

I agree with you 100%.

SealBeater

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't read the interviews. They specifically say they do not plan to remove features from existing units.

If the new units support HDTV recording, then the show sharing would definitely be a liability. Commercial skip on the other hand is silly to remove.

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[dtfarmer]

Wow, way to read the rest of the paragraph! I explictly stated that the automatic advance is unavailable on TiVo's.

So tell me, when you said 'That said, TiVo does have these features... kind of.' what exactly did you mean, because the two features that D&M is removing are Commercial Advance and Send Show. Which of those features does a Tivo have...kind of? That's right, neither. I stand by my original statement.

And I still have full trick play capability -- FF, RW, skip back, skip forward, all up to wherever it is in the current buffer

I don't worry how much is buffered, and I use 30-sec skip, 7-sec skip back, and Commercial Advance fine when streaming. I can't remember if I've used FF or RW when streaming as I use it so infrequently - but I'll try it tonight just to satisfy my own curiosity, now.

You can't do that with Replay -- either that or it is using HD space. Pick one.

It's possible it uses temporary space to cache, but like I said, I can skip forward as much as I want when streaming, so it seems more likely that the stream just readjusts as you go - which is why I can't tell you if FF or RW works, cause in my mind's stream readjustment, it just jumps to a new point, but I suppose it could actually stream a FF or RW stream when asked so I don't see why it shouldn't work.

Not to mention one of the other issues with Replay, that it won't record live TV while watching another show.

yeah and a tivo can't pause live tv for more than 30 minutes before it starts playing back automatically - ReplayTV's don't record live tv when on or watching a previously recorded show. But they use any available space for pausing live tv, so I can pause a baseball game and if I don't get right back to it (I get distracted easily) no big deal, my 5160's both probably could stay paused for over 24 hours. You may think I'm joking, but with my original 10-hour ReplayTV, I actually once left a game paused (actually I kept have to re-pause it to do something else) so long, I was 2.5 or 3 hours behind and it finally ran out of space and started playing on me when I wasn't watching it.

Oh, and network problems? CPU load? Non-issues for TiVo. If either recorder on Replay has issues on either one, you may as well forget it since it's all realtime

Yeah, I've had problems, but I know load problems have become rarer over time (I've been a customer from the start), and I expect the network issues (one of my own recent gripes) to get better over time - hopefully the new 5.0 update will help. Also, after a reset of the machine with problems, it takes no time at all to get back into play mode.

Wishlists, advanced searches, filtering by genre, better conflict resolution, and list of shows recorded/not recorded (and why)/deleted

wishlist? do your wishes get passed on to the networks by tivo or is that just a fancy way of saying advanced search? what's advanced - I can search by title, actor, description, or director, as well as other options such as limiting the day of the week. ReplayZones groups shows by genre, the conflict resolution in the new 5.0 update looks pretty good to me. All my recorded shows show up in the ReplayGuide, but I don't have a list of shows not recorded - oh, well.

If you do like MP3s then HMO is worth it for that alone

Yeah, I already said this option was nice, but it'd be nicer if it were included as part of the regular subscription. Until then I'll make do with my iPod and RCA cable (which is an extra cost in itself, but one I'd have even if my replaytv supported mp3 streaming, so I don't count it as an extra cost.)

Your price is also off slightly - an 80 hour TiVo is currently $299, since they just instituted a $50 discount. But that literally happened Monday, so I'd be surprised if you had that info.

Are you surpised that Tivo doesn't have that info either? My original post on monday was straight off the manufacturers'

Re:Failure ahead for Replay...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, you just have to replace a surface mounted ROM. Easy!

Grounds for a lawsuit...

[icemax]

I just bought a ReplayTV 5040 from SonicBlue.com with lifetime subscription w/ those features as selling points. When those features are removed, can I sue for false advertising?

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Zathrus]

No, because they're not being removed from your old unit, only from the new units that D&M will release.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah except if you paid attention at all you would have seen thats just in new models

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Read the EULA. It says they can add or remove any feature at any time when you connect to their servers. Slimy.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[The Only Druid]

Its my understanding that its the future hardware that wont have the features. If your unit, that you already have at your house, has that feature, i'm not sure they're planning on removing it.

That said, I'm not at all positive. ReplayTV has in the past removed features via firmware updates (which are forced on the user without their notice), so they could do a firmware-update that removes these features. Of course, at that point, it sounds like there'll be hacks out rather quickly.

As for suing, you'd have to be careful: the advertising materials likely make no claim that these features will exist through the lifetime of the product. If the features were there when you bought it, and you ran the hardware (including the end user agreement, which includes the statement that ReplayTV can update your hardware on their own), its not contradictory.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Kazymyr]

No, because your user agreement says:

" At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV unit (when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice)."

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Eric Smith]

ReplayTV has in the past removed features via firmware updates

What features went away?

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[silentbozo]

Commercial Advance was either taken away or broken in early releases of the 4.3 software. My ReplayTV might be a victim of that - I've never been able to get commercial advance to work consistently, so I've always had to resort to using the 30 second skip and instant replay buttons.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[afidel]

And THAT is why I will never own a Tivo or other device like it, I can never be sure that a week after I buy it all the things that made me buy the device will not be removed. With a normal consumer device it has a set featureset, I guess if I want a PVR it will have to be a home rolled one based on open data. Yes I realize how great things like season pass are but I have no assurance that they will be there after I purchase it.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[/dev/trash]

Lifetime means the life of the company. Since SonicBlue is no longer around, you got what you were promised.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[The_K4]

:) I wish I had mod points. I agree totally. I don't want all those fancy features that come w/ Tivo/replay. I just want a nice DVR (NOT PVR). :)

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[mik]

They've also said that they will not remove these features from current products. They'll still have 1-button 30-second skip (without the silly secret code you need to enable it on Tivo).

Re: suing - IANAL, but at some point, removal of features directly impacts the value of the product you paid for. Service agreement or no, the degree to which they can remove features is inversely related to the real value of those features. If, for instance, the service was changed so that you could only play recorded shows once, you could probably argue successfully in court that the box no longer performs its basic function.

I seriously think that if it had ever made it to trial, the internet sharing feature would have been upheld as fair use - it is certainly not like p2p: recipients of shared shows cannot then forward them to others. This makes it more restrictive than videotape!

D&M will be pretty careful not to alienate current owners... they also need to maintain some differentiation from Tivo. The fact that ReplayTVs are network-enabled out of the box is a huge win - most of Tivo's benifits are merely a Small Matter Of Programming...

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Babbster]

Then Toshiba and Panasonic have devices that you might be interested in. Both have DVR/DVD-R/RW products that can record to hard drive or disc. Neither have broadband/dial-up connections or program guides. The biggest problem is that they're still pretty expensive, running at minimum around the same price as a Tivo or Replay with lifetime guide service and as high as $1,500 MSRP. Here's a link to one of the Panasonic products, and a link to a Toshiba product.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[PerlGuru]

I just started using MythTV a week ago, and it has options similiar to the season pass... I can tell it to record a show just that time, in that timeslot on that channel, anytime on that channel, and anytime at all. It even remembers which episodes it has already recorded.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[mh_tang]

Yeah, it's just a press release, so take it for what it's worth, but that latest news is that "All other currently available models will retain the commercial skipping and Internet-sharing features".

Linked here.

So if DNNA keeps their word, it looks like the older 4000 and 5000 units that still have these features will not have them stripped retroactively. Time to start looking on eBay!

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[The Only Druid]

Okay, I'm not a lawyer yet, and my eduction in law is primarily that which is tied into my study of the philosophy of law, so I've had to ask other people about these limitations. From the commercial lawyers I've spoken to, this is what it comes down to:

If you buy a product knowing that its entire functionality derives from the active service provided by a company, you implicitly understand that at some point in the future that service may be terminated either because of bankruptcy or any other termination of the company itself or the product line. Now, for ReplayTV, they make no claim about how long their company will exist, or how long they will provide the existing services for (beyond the implication that it will continue as long as the product line exists). Therefore, its not false-advertising to kill services.

Supposing they did in fact kill off some or all of the features you found useful in your ReplayTV unit retroactively, the best you'd be able to get (if they were nice) is a refund for the product, and supposing you paid for a lifetime subscription, you may be able to get a portion of that cost refunded.

As to your specific example - the single playback of the recorded file - beyond the improbability of that (since it nearly completely eliminates the functionality of the device), it would still only constitute a change of service. Again, the key is that they never advertised a claim of how long they would provide the given service.

In fact, this is the whole point for ReplayTV of offering lifetime subscriptions: obviously, if you pay for 60 years of monthly subscriptions you'll give them more money than if you just pay the few hundred dollars for the lifetime subscription. However, they benefit in the short run from your lifetime subscription because they get more money at the moment. Basically, you determine to do one of the following: make a high-cost initial investment (subscription fee) with a payout only if you have a membership long enough to recoup the cost, or a low-cost initial and ongoing investment (monthly fee) with no "payout" but no risk over time.

Again, I am not a lawyer, but this is the summary of my conversations with several lawyers in the feild.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[HTH NE1]

Its my understanding that its the future hardware that won't have the features. If your unit, that you already have at your house, has that feature, i'm not sure they're planning on removing it.

I held off getting a ReplayTV because I was waiting for them to activate the Firewire ports. Not only were they never activated, but future models didn't even include them.

Even though I have and am happy with my numerous TiVos, I thought about getting a ReplayTV that still had the features, but the pruning back of features over the lifetime of the platform has me hesitant again.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[patchmaster]

the internet sharing feature would have been upheld as fair use - it is certainly not like p2p: recipients of shared shows cannot then forward them to others.

I think there's a fair chance that forcing the removal of the show sharing feature may backfire on big media. My understanding is it's already pretty easy to pull shows off the ReplayTV onto a computer, and that this is a by-product of being able to share shows among the units within a single household, so it won't be going away. Now, instead of having the ReplayTV limit the number of times a show can be shared and preventing the re-sharing of a show, people who want to share will be forced to use some type of p2p. So, instead of show sharing being limited to five people, it will be open to an unlimited number of people.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Doppler00]

Nope. If you read the fine print it usually says something like "We can change the terms of service whenever we feel like it, however we want to" so basically, they can say whatever they want in their advertising, and change it the next day. May cable internet provider did that wtih their pricing recently....

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[The_K4]

I've seen those and they are very cool. Once the price comes donw, and hopefully they support DVD+-RW as well as the HDD, i'll prolly get one. :)

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's the case, I'm keeping my 95 Dodge Truck. Who knows what they'll do on new versions...they might revoke cruise control or something saying it violates the rights of the billboard owners.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[Anonymous Coward]

This depends where you are located.

Selling a product with features, then later removing those features without the consent or prior knowledge of the owner is bait and switch.

Depending on your locations consumer protection laws , this may be illegal regardless of any end user agreement, etc.

Suggest you make a complaint to your consumer protection authority (ACCC in Australia), if anyone tries this.

Re:Grounds for a lawsuit...

[The Only Druid]

You're incorrect. ADVERTISING a product with X features, and selling it only with some quantity or degree of those features missing is "bait and switch". This is the universal definition of the phrase in all Western cultures, according to my dictionaries.

Once a sale is completed, the negotiation is complete.

In related news:

[RyanFenton]

MythTV v.0.9 was released yesterday

Works great on the 500mhz system I found in the trash a couple of months ago.

Freevo also works quite nicely.

Ryan Fenton

Re:In related news:

[(startx)]

I just built a new system, and I'm looking for something to do with my old p3-500 w/384MB RAM. Which would you recomend if I'm using an ATI TV-Wonder VE as the video input?

Re:In related news:

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a bit green about this stuff...

Are these just for US tv?

Can I set up my linux box to do all this snazzy stuff in the UK, Record stuff from Sky or BBC or whatever and skip ads and other fun..?

Re:In related news:

[NetMasta10bt]

Yes they work as long as you have the V4L compatible tv tuner/capture card.

Re:In related news:

[RyanFenton]

Sure - an old ATI TV card works well on on this system, and I've seen mention of that one working just fine. I picked up an extra hauppauge model, just for the radio function a while back - but both work. The ATI TV wonder I have won't even work in windows anymore for some reason, and it does just fine in Mandrake 9.1/MythTV. I record on mpeg4, 320x240 with mid-quality MP3, and it takes about 500meg per hour of recording.

The only problem I'm having so far is trying to convert MythTV's video files (.nuv) to something I can view in mplayer. It's supposed to play nupplevideo, but no dice thus far.

This is acutally my first time running Linux - and it's been pretty good thus far. I mean, I really had to view it as a puzzle, but it wasn't too bad. Definetly a great use for an old system.

Ryan Fenton

Re:In related news:

[Darth Maul]

This is because Myth uses a NuppelVideo with changes. There is a patch you can apply to the MPlayer source so it can play myth .nuv files. Check the dev mailing list archives. Also, I'm using an ATI Wonder VE tuner card and it works well.

Re:In related news:

[laststraw]

Sung to the tune of Dire Straits Money for Nothin'

"I want my MythTV"

I have it set up and it rocks! We use it everyday. My kids can watch whatever "Dora the Explorer" or "Blues Clues" recorded since December of last year.

The "mythweb" is quite nice. I can pick what to record from work!

Re:In related news:

[Pedersen]

FAQ Question @ MythTV

And, while I'm at it, I've got a script that'll chop out commercials, and make a divx for you, at this site. I'm going to be doing an update, because not all mythtv nuppelvideo files can be encoded directly by mythtv, but that is now fixable.

Re:In related news:

[hal200]

I own a full ATI TV Wonder (not the VE), and have owned a Hauppauge in the past. In my experience, ATI's tuner is much stronger than the one on the Hauppauge WinTV card I had. It can pull in channels that the WinTV wouldn't even touch, and generally produces a much clearer signal. As long as you're running it under Linux, you should be A-OK.

Under Windows, these cards are ATI's bastard stepchild. ATI's driver/application support has been pretty slim, and not very good. Half-assed at best. I guess they'd rather you bought a shiny new All-In-Wonder instead...

Re:In related news:

[usotsuki]

BTW, I have a WinTV Go! which works admirably on Hed Rat 8.0 Linux with xawtv...

Anyone know of a program for Linux which supports V4L and allows the use of the Closed Caption feature of the WinTV Go! card?

-uso.

Re:In related news:

[TopShelf]

Wow, I had no idea this could work on such old CPU's. I've got a 300MHz K6-II that's just been mothballed, and we've thought about getting a Tivo...

Re:In related news:

[AWhistler]

I'd really like to do this, but I would rather watch the recorded stuff on a real TV (TV is 36", monitor is 19"). I don't believe the ATI TV card nor the hauppuge does that, does it? Also, I have limited room since I inherited an old Gateway Flex PC (one of the half-height PC's that's about the size of a VCR). I want to use that as a CD/DVD player/PVR, saving the files on my server with 180Gigs on it.

But so far I've been stopped by the one feature I really want...TV viewing. Oh, and I want to spend less than a TiVo to do it!

Re:In related news:

[Pedersen]

Then in that case, allow me to recommend Focus Enhancements TView Micro scan converter. $90, and it connects VGA out to the composite input on a TV. Step up to the TView Gold, and you can connect it to S-Video In for ~$175.

Re:In related news:

[Kintanon]

I was going to post a suggestion to buy a cheap VGA to composite video cable, however after a half hour search of google, belkin's website, the Blackbox website, and asking around the only converters I could find were at minimum 75$. Most of them are boxes that come with remotes and all kinds of features. I was unable to find a cheap converter cable for some reas....
So maybe you should have gotten a video card with TV out or something....

Kintanon

Re:In related news:

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV and Freevo both can't hope to match the functionality, elegance, or even price of a TiVo or ReplayTV. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a little too firmly in the clutches of the "OSS everything is always better" camp.

Re:In related news:

[Eccles]

I'd really like to do this, but I would rather watch the recorded stuff on a real TV (TV is 36", monitor is 19"). I don't believe the ATI TV card nor the hauppuge does that, does it?

Generally a TV-out connection is a feature of your video card, not the video capture card. If you don't need super-whizzy 3-D graphics, you can get a card with TV-out reasonably cheaply; just check the Flex doesn't have TV-out already, has room for a video card as well as the capture one, and that you can disable the on-board video I assume such a PC has.

Re:In related news:

[Anonymous Coward]

That was such a lousy troll, it's pathetic.

Re:In related news:

[Sloppy]

You are exactly wrong. This is an application where Free Software really is better, and proprietary cannot hope to compete, except in the early days, and the early days are ending .. right .. about .. now.

Re:In related news:

[Anonymous Coward]

Works great on the 500mhz system I found in the trash a couple of months ago.

Damn! Where do you go to hunt through rubbish? All I can find when I go digging is food rubbish and SCO stock.

Re:In related news:

[AWhistler]

OK, then it's not just me. I haven't been able to find all the pieces I want either. I found a video capture card that has a svideo out as well, but it's a full-height video card (ATI A-i-W 7500). There are only two slots on this Flex PC, and one is used by the 100Base-T card.

I'll keep looking. Thanks for taking the time!

Re:In related news:

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV v.0.9 was released yesterday Works great on the 500mhz system I found in the trash a couple of months ago.

It also works wonderfully well on the Athlon 2400+ system I built for it. Dual Hauppauge WinTV dbx stereo cards, Asus micro-atx motherboard with onboard 6.1 sound and SPDIF output, an Asus geforce 4mx card for the SVIDEO out to the TV, two 200GB Maxtor hard drives (Debian on first 3GB of the first drive, the rest of the partition and the entire second disk LVM'd together into a 390GB+ logical volume which is formatted with ReiserFS), MythTV 0.8. Using the remote control from the Hauppauge WinTV card for the remote.

All I need now is to build or find an IR blaster so I can attach it to a digital cable box and finally get some use out of the $40+ month I spend on HBO/Cinemax/Showtime/TMC that I never have time to watch. I'm not going to say it was a cheap project (probably around $1200 if I remember) but it sure beats a 40GB TiVo. If I want to burn shows to DVD or store it somewhere else I can. If I want to edit commercials or send them to friends I can. It's also not going anywhere since it seems to have quite a following now. If anything it'll only get better.

Re:In related news:

[GooberToo]

Anyone know if there are any cards which can hook up to my DirectTV dish? Seems like all of these PVR cards for your computer only work with cable. Are there any which work with satellite?

Slogan

[Zathrus]

Or maybe their new slogan should be "Trying Not To Go Bankrupt a Third Time!".

Those features got them sued into oblivion. They'll get anyone sued into oblivion frankly, because the media companies won't abide it, and you're going to have a hard time convincing a judge that it's not a copyright violation to share shows.

Removing the commercial skip bit is lame, since there are VCRs that do this already and they've never been attacked. But D&M is obviously hoping to get friendlier with the media companies, and this is another thing they hate.

That said, as best I can tell they just removed the two features that made Replay preferable to TiVo... and the rest of their software is inferior. So I don't quite get where they hope to position the brand at.

Re:Slogan

[aborchers]

and you're going to have a hard time convincing a judge that it's not a copyright violation to share shows

Because in most cases it is, perhaps?

I am an avowed enemy of the copyright cartel because of their heavy-handed tactics and their meddling with public policy and the tech industry. Nonetheless, if it weren't for people infringing their coprights, they wouldn't be wasting their time and money in these pursuits.

Every time I think about the fact that I don't have a legal DVD player for Linux or can't play my last (as in "most recent" as well as "final") major label CD purchase on my notebook computer, I want to pitch an entertainment industry copyright lawyer in the east river weighed down with the corpse of a "sharer"...

Re:Slogan

[nolife]

But D&M is obviously hoping to get friendlier with the media companies

Under what motivation though? The media companies are not the ones buying the product, consumers are. Unless they are looking to catch a distribution deal with a cable company this does not make sense. The only other thing I can think of is they were offered some type of cross promotion deal or advertising space, in that case I do not think they would get as much a benefit for the required sacrifice as any DVR awareness campaign would benefit all DVR makers and not just them.

Re:Slogan

[Zathrus]

Wow... someone who gets it!

Heck, I have an 8000+ MP3 collection. And every single one of them is ripped and encoded off of a CD I own. Admittedly, I'm soon going to be adding some stuff downloaded from the Internet. From the band's site, for free, with their permission.

Replay's show sharing feature was allegedly for sharing between Replay boxes only. Except that they didn't protect it at all and made the protocol trivial to spoof. It's called due diligence, and both of Replay's former owners failed at it. D&M looks like they're going to try harder (or, rather, avoid the issue entirely).

Re:Slogan

[Babbster]

Removing the commercial skip bit is lame, since there are VCRs that do this already and they've never been attacked.

While it's true that there are VCRs with the features, the fact is that the VCRs do it by doing a scan fast-forward through the commercials. It's been demonstrated in studies that people seeing commercials as they're fast-forwarding are affected by them just as much as if they saw them at normal speed. With the ReplayTV version, the advance happens all but instantaneously, so people aren't exposed to the commercials even for a second.

As someone who has had a ReplayTV for many years (without Commercial Advance), I can tell you that even with 30-second skip I still get exposed to pieces of commercials and am still aware of what's being advertised. While I might not be able to discuss the latest Miller Light commercial in detail, I still know that they added Pam Anderson to the latest cat fight. :)

Re:Slogan

[Scyber]

SonicBlue wasn't in the best financial shape when it bought ReplayTV. WHile I have no doubt the lawsuit wasn't good for them, I think overspending during the boom was more of a problem for SB.

Re:Slogan

[Zathrus]

The motivation is two-fold. Firstly, to try and convince the media companies to not sue them into oblivion (again!). Secondly, advertising on the PVR, merchandising, reselling of anonymous user data (*), and all the other methods that TiVo is already using in an effort to become profitable.

As for "required sacrifice" -- uh... it's not getting them much right now. The number of Replay accounts is really very, very low. They've been a failure in the marketplace. If you ask most people what a DVR/PVR is, they won't know. If you ask them if they've heard of TiVo you might get a better response. If you ask them who Replay is, they're probably going to give you their opinion of Instant Replay rulings in professional sports.

The downside of these features far outweighs the upside at this time.

* - I don't know if Replay's EULA allows for this. If it doesn't, I suspect a new EULA will change that.

Re:Slogan

[haystor]

If its the fault of the people that fail due diligence, then its the fault of the cable and broadcast companies for putting out stuff that can be redistributed.

Why are other companies responsible for securing properties that are released in an insecure fashion? Sure Napster had predominantly pirated works on there but why should they be responsible for the people that use their system? Perhaps the RIAA and MPAA should screen their customers before they sell to them and stop selling to thieves.

The first pirate has to get his goods from somewhere and its one of their customers that's doing it.

Re:Slogan

[DucatiBoy]

Actually the article says that they are going to remove the "Send Show" option, which only shares the show over the internet with other people. They said nothing about removing the ability to record something on one replay in your house and play it on another, which is what I think you were talking about.

That easy archiving feature with the Replay will be it's one final point it holds over TIVO. I know it's possible with a TIVO, but it's super easy with a Replay.

I personally wouldn't have bought the Replay without the features they are removing, I would have bought a TIVO.

I really love the Replay and I'm upset that they are putting all this effort to crush them. My VCR records shows and will automatically skip the commercials. And I guess there could be a problem with sending shows over the internet. I have needed it a few times. I forgot to set something up to record and someone sent it to me. Who cares if it was recorded off my TV or someone elses. It's no different than having my parents record something and send me the tape, but I guess Big Brother is against anything that would make my life easier.

At the same time the government is making a national do not call list against telemarketers, they are letting some companies attack others that are producing something rather useful. And look at the quantities of these Replay's that they are selling, very few people are buying them (compaired to the amount of TIVO's or DVD players or VCRs). All this work over an idea that these machines are "evil" or used for breaking the law. I guess some people could, by not paying for HBO and getting some show from HBO sent to them, but the number is so minimal and it takes about 3 days to send a single show, who really cares about? I think they are wasting too much time going after too small of a target.

Re:Slogan

[aborchers]

You have an intriguing point about the lack of due diligence on the part of the cable companies. Remember it when they've implemented the broadcast flag.

As for the old Napster saw about how they were just an innocent filesharing network spoiled by bad users, the courts have ruled clearly that there is a difference between pure distributed P2P networks a'la Gnutella and centralized services like Napster. Napster was held responsible for what was on their network because they indexed it and therefore acted as a direct facilitator of the exchange, not just as a neutral technology provider. I am encouraged that the courts have had shown some good sense lately in distringuishing this difference.

Re:Slogan

[Zathrus]

If its the fault of the people that fail due diligence, then its the fault of the cable and broadcast companies for putting out stuff that can be redistributed.

No. Now you're making the argument that if I don't lock my house it's fine for you to wander in and do whatever you want. Even if it's just to look. It's still illegal trespass, and it's theft if you actually take anything.

Copyright law states that you may not redistribute without consent of the copyright holder. That's all the protection they should need. Arguing otherwise leads to inane cases like the above, and it will lead to all this DRM crap that we're having to put up with now (such as CDs that don't play in all CD players).

Re:Slogan

[haystor]

Ok, I didn't state it too clearly earlier. I certainly think the guilt lies with the criminal.

But, the RIAA say that everyone is stealing. They still sell this music to those same people that are pirating it.
They then blame the service providers (Napster was a bad choice, use some other P2P one or just a search engine).

I'm saying that if everyone else is going to be at fault for these things getting copied around, then the RIAA needs to be consistent in their due diligence and stop selling to all the people that are pirating. Since they say that its pretty much everyone...well, then they should stop providing those people with the content to steal from them.

Its hard to come up with a physical analogy since its not truly stealing, rather its stealing potential sales. If a known burglar came into my shop and asked for a crowbar I would have to turn him down. If the RIAA knows that 80% of people steal content, they shouldn't provide those people with content that they can make copies of for other people.

This argument would only make sense if you first assume that the RIAA is correct that everyone that facilitates is equally liable.

As far as DRM. Bring it on. Go ahead and put it on everything and everywhere. I'm perfectly willing to live without things I don't think are worth paying for. I've already got DRM on several software programs and don't mind it at all. I pay for the works I use and I don't try or buy the things I can't preview. A lot of Linux zealots want the government to crush MicroSoft. I'd prefer they be turned loose to run rampant. They are the best thing that's happened to open source.

Re:Slogan

[geekoid]

it could also be arugued that there is a gain from content sharing.
Most people share what they like. If I miss an episode of futurama, and the next day call up my bud and ask him to send it to me, that is one more viewer of the show.
its nt stealing, it is copyright infringrment, to different things. They call it stealing to the public because everyone goes "stealing is bad", not everyone says "sharing a tv show is bad". as a metter of fact, the people ecpect to be able to share shows, and have been doing it since the VCR hit the market. Incidently, copyright is a gift given to creater from the people. If enough people get fed up, they can take it away.

Re:Slogan

[Zathrus]

I understand your position now... thing is, if you produce something that can only be used to circumvent copyright, then you're liable. The feature that allowed Replay to send shows over the Internet was one such device -- there is no way it can be used such that it doesn't violate copyright. Ok, maybe if you send yourself the show... which is simply inane. You simply don't have the right to email the show to someone else, even if they could've watched it in the first place. I agree that it seems silly, but that's how it works, and I think it's a fairly reasonable restriction.

That's what was wrong with Replay, and why they got sued. TiVo won't get sued because they've put some very strong encryption in place that isn't likely to get broken. Plus each TiVo knows what other TiVo's it can talk to, and will only talk to those TiVos (theoretically breakable, except that the kernel and all software on S2's is locked down with more encryption).

And while I can agree with you to some extent on DRM, the reality is that the companies want overly draconian DRM. For example, the cable companies and studios wanted HDTV recording devices to respond to several different flags (record, don't record, record only once), have time limits on the recordings (so they would auto-delete after a provider set time period), and even the ability to remotely delete recordings at their whim. All of which are absurd. I can theoretically go for a record/don't record flag, but only if the rules under which it can be used are very stringent (e.g. - PPV movies). Fortunately the consumer electronics manufacturers have all told the cable cos/studios to go fuck themselves, and HDTV has progressed beyond the point of alteration now.

Similarly, I deeply dislike having to put in a game CD to play a game. It's ridiculous... the only person it hurts is me, the guy who actually bought the game. The pirates aren't affected because they crack around it quickly, but I still have to do the CD shuffle everytime I want to play a different game. Blech.

That's why I'm largely anti-DRM -- because the DRM technologies rarely hurt the copyright infringer, but often impede the legitimate user.

Re:Slogan

[haystor]

I hear you about the cd to play a game. I've stopped playing several because its more convenient to play the same game and keep it in the drive. The other thing that bothers me is that with any EA game I have to watch their splash intros every time. This really drives me nuts when the game crashes and I have to restart. I bought the damn game, let me play it, don't force me to watch your self-promos.

I don't buy EA now, problem solved.

The same thing with commercials and FBI messages at the beginning of DVD's. Who the (@#&$ are they to take over control of my player and say which buttons I can or can't press.

I stopped buying dvd's.

Now I play the piano. I'm saving up for some land and within 10 years I'll have a considerable amount and maybe a couple horses. What's that big yellow thing outside? Was that always there? When did it get an FBI warning limiting my use to daytime-clear-weather only?

Re:Slogan

[angle_slam]

Replay's show sharing feature was allegedly for sharing between Replay boxes only. Except that they didn't protect it at all and made the protocol trivial to spoof.

I've never understood the big deal with sharing shows. I can understand Big media going after MP3 traders or DVD hackers. I may not agree with it, but Big Media charges people to obtain the music/movies and trading and DeCSS obviously goes around that. But why should NBC care if Friends is being traded on the Internet? Aren't they broadcasting it for free to anyone with an antenna and TV? Isn't it trivially easy (and legal) to set a VHS machine to tape the show anyway?

Re:Slogan

[patchmaster]

In the scenario you've described, it isn't even copyright infringement. It has long been considered "fair use" to video tape an over-the-air broadcast and to share the tape with friends. To any reasonable person, sending a copy of "Futurama" to your buddy via ReplayTV is an obvious extension of the video tape "fair use". (Of course, being obvious to a reasonable person is no guarantee of what the courts might decide.) This is especially so since ReplayTV limits the number of times you can share a show and it prevents re-sharing a show that has been sent to you. That's more restrictive than the video tape situation since I can share the tape as many times as I want and nothing is stopping my friends from making copies and giving them to their friends.

Re:Slogan

[jandrese]

The problem is that you're destroying the idea of "prime time" which is one way these guys make a lot of money. You're also probably sending the video to people in another area, so the locally inserted ads will be wrong (he won't get the ad for the car dealership down the street, he'll get the ad for the car dealership down your street).

I admit that these seem pretty weak, but they're the reason VCRs almost didn't come into being, and the reason Tivo and ReplayTV have such legal trouble. What it comes down to is that they own the copyright on the works, which gives them broad authority over what people do with the data, and they've decided that nothing is acceptable except the few narrowly defined modes of transmission they've made for themselves and whatever Congress said they coudln't get away with.

Re:Slogan

[Anonymous Coward]

'I want to pitch an entertainment industry copyright lawyer in the east river weighed down with the corpse of a "sharer"'

• Didn't you get that memo? "Sharers" are being disposed of in the Hudson river from this point forward....

Re:Slogan

[aborchers]

Didn't you get that memo? "Sharers" are being disposed of in the Hudson river from this point forward....

Dang. Guess I'll have to weigh down my lawyers with spurious patent filings...

Re:Slogan

[cyril3]

there are VCRs that do this already and they've never been attacked.

I remember a TV executive accusing those who skip ads as criminals.

They have only never attacked because there was no way they could stop it on VCR's by the time they realized it was a problem.

Re:Slogan

[IronChef]

Nonetheless, if it weren't for people infringing their coprights, they wouldn't be wasting their time and money in these pursuits.

Skipping commercials in an automated fashion has NOTHING to do with copyrights. It's about control, and they'll take all they can get, needed or not.

Re:Slogan

[aborchers]

Skipping commercials in an automated fashion has NOTHING to do with copyrights

Why would you assume I thought it did? I was responding to a point about the "sharing" feature, as clearly indicated by the section of the post I quoted.

Re:Slogan

[Anonymous Coward]

The same thing with commercials and FBI messages at the beginning of DVD's. Who the (@#&$ are they to take over control of my player and say which buttons I can or can't press.

You can still press whatever fucking buttons you want. I'd like to see someone stop THAT!

Re:Slogan

[Zathrus]

Uh... no. You have the right to time shift the show for your own purposes. You do not have the right to share the tape with friends. I know that this has become an accepted practice, and I've certainly done it myself (taping stuff off of TiVo for friends now), but it's quasi-legal at best. If you charge for it then it certainly isn't legal. But in any case it's not fair use -- I suggest you go read the provisions of fair use in copyright law and try and figure out which one applies.

Hacking potential?

[SailFly]

I hope there is still as much hacking potential as the original ReplayTV. There are some impressive projects going on out there!

http://rtvpatch.sourceforge.net/

In other news...

[illumin8]

In other news... Ebay prices of the older 4000 series Replay units skyrocketd...

MythTV, anyone?

[Vengeance]

I've been assembling a set of PVR boxes which I'm planning to use for distributed recording/playback around the house. I never *did* get a Tivo or ReplayTV, though I came close, and now the stars are aligning in another direction. Combine the slow withdrawal of features from the commercial boxes, with the new features becoming available in a package like MythTV, and for a true geek, the answer is obvious.

In a year or two, possibly sooner, one could expect a CDROM-based distribution of Linux that makes a dedicated MythTV box out of any PC with capture and video-out.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[silas_moeckel]

MythTV has one big drawback for digital sat users there is a whole recompression stage with lassy compression. DirectTivo allows a completely lossless experience. Now granted they have a lot of issues about not supporting new features in the series 2 but when it all comes down to it for me at least quality is the number one concern.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Combine the slow withdrawal of features from the commercial boxes

What features has TiVo withdrawn? Or are you just spreading more of that Build-Your-Own-PVR-Loser FUD? I've built a PVR and I have a TiVo. TiVo wins hands down. You're retarded.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[BurritoWarrior]

Combine the slow withdrawal of features from the commercial boxes

What features has TiVO removed? I am curious as I own a TiVo and do not recall anything being removed from it.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Vengeance]

You make a good point. One thing I'd really like to see is a PCI card satellite tuner... Perhaps it would require a slot for the little activation card, but it wouild be sweet to have that digital stream right there in the PC.

Combine that with MythTV's support for multiple video streams, and I could see making a great big server box with multiple satellite and tuner cards, and simple CAT5 connections to the view boxes all around the house.

Mmmm, now to convince the wife I need this.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Vengeance]

It's not what has been removed from the box you own...

It's what I suspect may be removed from the box you will want to buy next year.

Replay/TV is running scared enough to cut features, I don't see why the same couldn't happen with Tivo...

An additional factor of course, is ongoing costs, but that's kind of a side issue to this discussion. On the other hand, given the choice of paying $120.00 a year or $0.00 a year for PVR functionality, the edge in that has to go to the roll-my-own solution.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[silas_moeckel]

I beleive the Europeans have that something about DBS??? I realy dont think directtv will make something like the PCi card you describe after all there are a LOT of things you could do to the signal at that point. But this does lead me to thinking I am pretty sure that the sat receiver and decoder is discreat from the mpeg2 decoder so you could potentialy hardware hack an old school direct tv receiver and snag the mpeg2 they are easy to control via serial as to channel changing.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[LazyBoy]

given the choice of paying $120.00 a year or $0.00 a year ...

This is FUD.
I have a Tivo. I pay $0.00 a year.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Vengeance]

Neat! So the 10 dollar a month service fees I heard about have been ended? I did not know that.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

. MythTV has one big drawback for digital sat users there is a whole recompression stage with lassy compression

aye...lassy compression is a fookin' bitch ta deele with eh?

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[grungeKid]

Depending on what kind of digital satellite you're getting, there might be a way of streaming the data directly to disc with MythTV. The new 0.9 version has preliminary DVB support, if you have such a card in your PC (and a similar project, DVR, is *built* for these cards). However, I think DVB is mostly used in Europe, and so it might not be an option for everyone.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Sloppy]

The only Tivo feature I ever noticed get removed, was the not-having-an-ad-on-the-main-menu feature.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Scyber]

$10/month fee?

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Sloppy]

In September 2000, I bought a Tivo for $300. Then I bought a lifetime subscription for $200. Then I got a $100 rebate from Philips. Then I got another $100 rebate from Tivo. Net expenditures: $300.

So I really paid $200 for the Tivo and $100 for the lifetime subscription. $100 subscription amortized over the following 33 months (so far) has been $3.33 per month .. and dropping.

God, what a deal. I love bragging about it, as you can see.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Been there, doing it ... :)

www.dvbmaster.com will get you a DVB PCI card, add a 30" dish pointed in the right direction and you'll get free to air locals plus a bunch of other stuffs.

Add some Made in Russia software and some other stuff can be made to work quite easily.

And all of it can be written directly to your hard drive in its native format (MPEG2-TS). Quite handy actually :)

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[IronChef]

In a year or two, possibly sooner, one could expect a CDROM-based distribution of Linux that makes a dedicated MythTV box out of any PC with capture and video-out.

Right now the weak link in a free PVR is the guide data. Via XMLtv you can get the data for free from zap2it.com, but what if they stop making it available?

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, you can spend time waiting for something in developement (MythTV) to be as good as something you can buy now (TiVo), or just buy the TiVo now and enjoy using it during that time.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[GooberToo]

Is there a PCI card that I can stick into a machine that will let me watch DirectTV? Assuming I have a valid card? Last I heard, no. Are you suggesting that people should hang a PVR directly off of their sat receiver and not be able to change channels, etc?

I'm trying to figure out what the implications are of your statement.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[silas_moeckel]

As far as I know and can find there is no Direct TV PCI card. Now it's potentialy possible to lift the mpeg2 datastream from a normal directtv receiver and get that stream over to a PC. At this point I have an old RCA unit open on the bench and am tracing down component pinouts.

As to changing channels this is trivialy easy on directtv receivers they have this low speed data port thats serial and you can change channels through it (series one tivo's support this method) it's easier than geting a whole IR interface up and running and provided 2 way communications I beleive.

Anyway this is just becomming a bit of a side project for me. I have a DirectTivo as it is but this might be a bit more flexable.

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[GooberToo]

First, let me say thanks for replying. Second, do you have any information on actually using the serial interface on my directtv receiver? I've seen that thing and long wondered what the possibilities were with it.

Thanks!

Re:MythTV, anyone?

[silas_moeckel]

http://www.pcmx.net/dtvcon/cmds.htm is a good start the RCA models use a slightly different protcal but a quick google for directv serial channel change pops up listings and howto's. There are some premade modules floating around for lirc somewhere if your a Linux fan.

is there no other way

[Anonymous Coward]

Can corporations really not figure out a new business model to give us what we want AND make money doing it. it seems like a glaring lack of interest/intelligence on their part. I like to think that people who are "illegially" downloading music and movies and tv are only beta testing the technology of the future. Its not on our back to make it profitable.

Lemme get this straight

[Brento]

They couldn't beat Tivo in the DVR game with more features and a lower price.

Now, Tivo's got the awesome Home Media Option out that lets you play MP3's on your Tivo, which Replay never had.

So now, best case scenario, they offer less features as Tivo at the same price? Or maybe a little lower?

What's the business model here again?

Re:Lemme get this straight

[mh_tang]

Yeah, except that the Home Media Option is just that:
Optional.

To activate it on the Tivo, you need to pay an extra $99. So what's this about comparing prices?

Re:Lemme get this straight

[Anonymous Coward]

They still have all the features Tivo "2.0" just added, sans the MP3 thing. Besides, consumers that would buy PVRs are likely to already have another MP3 solution hooked up to their reciever. Hell, an Apex DVD player I bought 5 years ago for $50 bucks could play MP3s.

I don't think you've owned machines from both companies, or maybe you're just uninformed.

Re:Lemme get this straight

[Scyber]

Actually historically, the TiVo & Replay prices were relatively the same. TiVo increased its subscription fee a little while back and D&M is following suit at the end of the month. Of course if you compare TiVo w/ HMO you are talking about a $100 price difference.

No Distinction

[BlueWaldo]

I don't think ReplayTV is going to be able to take over TiVo's spot in the market unless they are able to offer somthing TiVo doesn't. I guess they are in a tight spot not wanting to get sued, but I think this is a move in the wring direction unless they like being second best.

But the advertisers...

[Andorion]

However much I'd love to skip commercials, I can definitely see why advertisers and more importantly the networks are concerned (and you should be able to, too.) If fewer people watch the ads, the ads are worth less money - money which goes to producing shows. I'd be the first in line to sign a "Ray Romano gets paid too much" petition, but that's besides the point - without income from advertising (or with reduced income) I predict we'll either see show quality decline or cable costs go up. All it'll take is a few more years, when DVR comes built in every TV (or nearly everyone has a box.)

~Berj

Re:But the advertisers...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I predict we'll either see show quality decline or cable costs go up."

God I hope not. Quality shows like "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire" will be replaced by "Who Wants to watch the surveillence cam at Wal Mart"

Re:But the advertisers...

[Vaevictis666]

This is one of the reasons that shows get canned. Farscape for example got canned off SciFi because the shows were costing more to produce than advertising revenue was coming in (at least according to the Nielson ratings for those time slots) and they couldn't come to an agreement. Which sucks. But since Farscape and 24 are the only shows I've watched this past season, that means I can get by with no tv, which is good :)

Re:But the advertisers...

[michrech]

I submit the following:

The Pitts

The Mullets

Need I keep digging to prove my point? OK. So I haven't seen any shows of "The Mullets" yet, but, do you half to? As for The Pits... I'd *LOVE* to know who got blown to get that show on the air...

For those that are still with me and wondering where I'm going... I'm stating that there is already an abundance of CRAP on TV -- even before the ability to skip past commercials is commonplace (I mean, come on, ho wmany people really skip commercials, or even have the ability to, outside of slashdot?) Right now the networks are just blowing smoke up our asses to have yet more technology taken away from us. Nothing more.

anyway.. back to work...

Re:But the advertisers...

[KrispyKringle]

The concern most people have here, though, is not that they have a right not to view the ads; such a right is quite basic, as it goes hand-in-hand with your right not to view TV. This is quite different from a right, however, to view TV without the ads; when you accept an essentially free gift from the networks (however crappy the programming may be) you accept it on their terms; they would be well within their rights to say, "Don't like ads? Don't watch TV." As the ads become more pervasive, this is essentially what they are saying.

Rather, critics are bothered by the impact that a totally seperate industry can have on what sort of consumer electronics are even available to us with what capabilities. Were the TV networks to dislike this, they could force contractual agreements with consumers banning the use of these devices (purely hypothetically, of course). But instead they choose a less direct means of asserting their power, which translates to a means of, from a really sinister viewpoint, pacifying the natives.

Rather than openly tell us who's decision it was, the networks use threats and bribes to induce the hardware manufacturers into denying consumers an otherwise profitable and desirable product. This echos far too similarly to the practice of the RIAA of suing the pants off anyone who manufactures software or hardware that appears to threaten them ("Hey, baby, you don't need to sue me to get my pants off...") regardless of significant legitimate use.

This direction-through-indirection is merely annoying at best, but really a terrifying over-stepping of commercial bounds at worst. The government, who supposedly represents us all, is entrusted with the rights to deny us harmful or dangerous products. We trust that such an action is in our best interest, and that the reasons for such an action are the reasons stated up front--no underhanded manipulation is ever acceptible in a democracy--but we have given no such trust to any corporation. When a corporation who's business is televised entertainment, no less, makes for us a decision on what hardware is good and what is bad, it oversteps its commercial bounds.

Re:But the advertisers...

[BuckaBooBob]

Ahh on that note too they need to learn that during every single commerical break there are tonnes of guys out there that are stick and tired of Maxipad ads.. and the products to make women feel spring fresh!..

Its bad enough that your GF makes you sit down and watch some cheese new sitcom.. but to sit through all them damn commercials.. Not to mention there is very little variety in commercials as well.. Its the same old same old commericals you allways see... There are sum that are a Riot to see and I enjoy seeing 3 maybe 4 times.. but after 100 or so times it wears out badly.. not to mention one can esily see the same commercial 100 times in a 48 hour period if one is a avid TV watcher.

Re:But the advertisers...

[zsmooth]

"Who Wants to watch the surveillence cam at Wal Mart"

AKA, Jerry Springer.

Re:But the advertisers...

[Otisserie]

Bullshit. TV and advertisers will adjust. One, advertisers may start making better commercials that people want to watch. Two, networks can reduce the costs of shows by, for example, paying stars less. The cast of Friends makes $1 million each per episode because NBC is willing to pay it. If no network was willing to pay that price, then you can bet your ass that Matt LeBlanc would take what they offered rather than go back to waiting tables.

The networks are just trying to preserve the status quo at all costs. They are welcome to try, but they shouldn't have any help from Congress or the courts.

Re:But the advertisers...

[untaken_name]

However much I'd love to skip commercials, I can definitely see why advertisers and more importantly the networks are concerned (and you should be able to, too.) If fewer people watch the ads, the ads are worth less money - money which goes to producing shows. I'd be the first in line to sign a "Ray Romano gets paid too much" petition, but that's besides the point - without income from advertising (or with reduced income) I predict we'll either see show quality decline or cable costs go up. All it'll take is a few more years, when DVR comes built in every TV (or nearly everyone has a box.)

Nah. They're already starting to cope with this problem. They're just integrating sponsors into the shows either blatantly (Pepsi Presents: an american idol clone! yippie!) or as product placement. ('Raaaaaaaaay! The twins are out of Huggies Disposable Diapers with new stretchier material, can you go to the store and get some?)

People predict the death of the media all the time, and most of the time what they're saying makes a lot of sense. However, most people don't give a shit what anyone thinks, and they're going to keep on watching tv and buying stuff. Those phenomena may or may not be related; personally I can recall a zillion jingles/slogans/mascots and whatnot, but AFAIK commercials only influence me negatively. Example: I enjoy the food at Applebee's, but I'll never step foot into another one as long as I live because of their hideously annoying 'eatin' good in the neighborhood' campaign. Likewise, I'll never use 1-800-collect, 1-800-call-att, or any 10-10 number I've seen advertised, because their commercials make me physically ill. While I can recall numerous times I've decided *not* to buy something based on its commercial, I don't put any stock in them as far as recommending new products. I'd rather ask someone that's used it.

Re:But the advertisers...

[evilviper]

If fewer people watch the ads, the ads are worth less money - money which goes to producing shows.

Well, let's see. Back when TV started, there was about 1 commercial per show. Now, 3/4 of the show is just dozens of commercials. Gee, sounds like ads have been becomming worth less and less money for a long time now.

If you want someone to blame it on, look at the networks, and the makers of the commercials themselves. I'm not about to watch commercials for 10 minutes straight, I'm not going to watch for long if the announcer just keeps repeating "expedia dot com" every 2 seconds, and I'm not going to watch for a second if the volume of the commercials is twice as loud as the show was.

This has gone on for a long time now. It's a perfect example of companies looking for the quick buck, and, in the long run, screwing over themselves, or their entire industry. These days, it's the RIAA and MPAA doing this, so you know where they are headed.

Anyhow, they've made commercials more and more annoying, meaning they've made people NOT want to watch them. I have a hard time understanding why they still continue in this direction. Personally, I'd like to see ad-driven TV off the air, then we can finally pay a few dollars a month for a couple dozen GOOD channels, with no ads. The current networks don't know how to make good content that people will pay for, so they defend their current model tooth and nail. Commercials in TV are an inherent conflict of interest. If we could pay $1/month for each channel, and monthly decide if we want to add or drop a channel, TV would be so much better, as station's only motivation would be to make their shows better, and otherwise just make consumers happy.

Re:But the advertisers...

[Anonymous Coward]

If enough people skip ads by any means, it will just encourage them to start relying more and more on product placement and other ways of invading the show's content itself.

Re:But the advertisers...

[evilviper]

I should have mentioned that, in the pay-per-channel senario, their motivation to make consumers happy would lead them to wholly support DVR/timeshifting, since you still need to be paying for the station to use DVR.

One thing they might be unhappy about the the archiving and copying of shows. If you can save an old show, then you might just cancel your subscription, instead of keeping your subscription so you can watch it again in the future.

With the copying of shows, there are advantages and disadvantages for these networks. The advantage is that you may distribute it to someone who doesn't subscribe, and they then decide they are missing out, and so they start paying for the network. On the other hand, networks might be unhappy because, if they only have one or two good shows, it's possible that people will be downloading those shows, instead of subscribing.

Still, I don't think they'd have much of a problem just accepting either, since it's not very big of a problem for them, unlike current, add-supported networks.

Re:But the advertisers...

[Onan The Librarian]

I'm still astonished at the number of people who believe that television exists in order to provide programs. Television exists solely for the purpose of providing another advertising medium, for everything from footwear to politicians. The quality of programming is quite secondary to the networks first consideration: advertising dollars. They don't utilize those dollars to create "better TV programs", there's no such thing. The shows exist only to sucker viewers into watching the advertisements, and although you can say, "Oh, I always mute the commercials", the visuals are still effective at capturing attention (often far more so than the programs). It's also worth noting that television advertising works on the same basis as email spam: sure, YOU don't respond to those Nike and Coke ads, but someone sure as hell does, and the take from even a tiny percentage of viewers is significant enough to warrant the continued domination of television by its advertisers. Btw, in his book "Four Arguments For The Elimination Of Television" Jerry Mander notes that the more heavily a product is advertised the less there is an actual need for it. So while you never see an advertisement for whole wheat or organic farming you'll see plenty for soft drinks, antiperspirants, and yes, even automobiles and beer. You might like that stuff but you don't really NEED it. That is known up front in the advertising industry, so they must continue to blare their wares, else in a very short time you will forget about their product and discover that you simply don't need it.
As an aside, I was told by a former jingles writer for the J. Walter Thompson Agency that he once conferred with representatives for a major brewing company here in the US. The reps told him they were targeting what they termed the "reparative drinker", i.e., the 30% of American drinkers who consume 60% of their product. These are the people who don't have a babe girlfriend, a fast cool car, or any talent for sports. But the advertisers know that their job is to convince those people that if they just drink their beer then at least they'll FEEL like they got the babe, the car, and the talent. In short, drinking their beer "repaired" those deficincies, and it's the advertiser's work to convince those people to keep drinking, as opposed to actually doing something to improve their real lives.
As a last comment, I've lost track of the number of friends who tell me about their attention-deficit out-of-control kids, and then tell me that "All those kids want to do is watch TV". What those kids will really remember is the ads. Makes me wonder what Hitler might have accomplished with television...

Re:But the advertisers...

[funkmonkeyfunk]

now ray-ramano-skipping technology - that I could really get behind...

seriously, though, i agree that it makes a lot of sense for advertisers to be troubled by DVR. it does, after all, allow you to watch a show without the commercials they pay a truckload to make and therefore expect some return from. on the other hand the invention of the remote control wrested their hold on your attention away, anyways.

i see two potential solutions for them to maintain the same revenue:
1)come up with new and interesting paradigms for advertising. note the innovative techniques that soccer (really called football every place it is commonly on tv) broadcasters have found: banners across the top, drop down ads, sponsored commercial-free time, etc.
2)utilize partnerships with the up and coming media megoliths (ClearChannel, Comcast/ATT, etc.) to force companies like ReplayTV to drop these technologies and support the status quo.

Especially since elected politicians have a vested interest in the continuation of television commercials as well, i suspect the latter will come to pass. even when we all have (crippled) dvr's on every tv in the house i have to disagree with the idea that "fewer people will watch ads." the networks and the advertisers are just going to find ways to make sure we are watching.

Re:But the advertisers...

[Anonymous Coward]

When TV started in this country (USA), it was driven by advertising dollars. Shows were broadcast, so they were free (other than the initial investment of a TV set), commercials were limited directly by the government and, lo and behold, the big three networks made a TON of money.

Now, most content is delivered by satellite or cable. Monthly subscription payments are the norm, continual lobbying has resulted in almost NO limits on the number of commercials (wake up at 2:00 AM sometime and witness nothing BUT commercials, no program content at all) and you're telling me they are gonna suffer if people don't watch their damned commercials?

I call "Bullshit

Re:But the advertisers...

[Zork the Almighty]

...when you accept an essentially free gift from the networks (however crappy the programming may be) you accept it on their terms...

Interesting, I don't recall signing a licence agreement. But when the major media companies own all the distribution channels, you have to wonder what's coming next.

Re:But the advertisers...

[Duck of Death]

Maybe it's advertising that needs to improve. I don't have the answers, but there has to be a better way of doing it. Some examples:

I am not in the market for a car, yet I have to watch an endless stream of car advertising. Furthermore, I have to watch ads for cars I will never, ever buy either because they're too small or too expensive.

I am well aware of the products of the Coca Cola and Pepsi companies, what their flagship products taste like and which I prefer. I should be excused from having to view any of their ads, yet I have to watch them all the time.

I watched a movie on TBS recently and at every commercial break (every 12 minutes) they ran the SAME ad for the SAME lame looking made for TBS movie. I watched only 90 minutes of the movie and saw the same ad 8 times. I wasn't going to watch it after seeing the first ad and the subsequent 7 viewings did nothing to change my mind.

Currently, advertisers pay a lot of money to reach millions of people, of which only a small fraction might be interested in what they are selling.

Tivo ought to offer a program that allows you to cut your monthly subscription cost by 50 or 100% depending on how many ads you watch. Not the ads you recorded along with "Friends" last night, but ads that are stored on your machine and play when you access a recorded program, like the ads that play before movies these days. It can be one 30 second or two 15 second spots. No more. Furthermore, you've provided the Tivo software information about yourself or your household (whatever you feel comfortable with) so the advertising is much better targeted. The more information you provide, the better targeted the advertising. So now, you'll only see car ads if the you've told the machine you might be buying a new car in the next six months, and since it knows your preferences, it won't show you ads for Korean econoboxes or Lincoln Navigators. Anyone who doesn't want to participate doesn't have to. And if you don't want to provide any information you don't have to do that either, but the ads will be about as well targeted as regular TV. Oh, and you can give thumbs up or down to the ads themselves to provide feedback for the advertisers.

TV isn't going away and advertising isn't going away either, but they need to get rid of the clutter. The solution to people ignoring ads because there too many ads is not to have even more ads. It's to make sure the right ads are being seen by the right people. Assuming 90% of what we have to sit through is clutter, if they can figure out how to get the right ads to the right people, they can cut the number of ads I have to watch by 90% and charge advertisers 10 times as much per ad. If someone wants to spend 300k to have an ad seen by 20 million people, only 2 million of which are interested then it stands to reason that they would spend 300k to reach the right 2 million people.

My thoughts. Somewhat scattered. Serves me right for writing while trying to talk on the phone.

DD

Re:But the advertisers...

[stinkwinkerton]

I agree totally. The advertisers will take a note from the movie industry to get their marketing across...
Picture this...
On Friends, when Joey is getting ready for a date he grabs a box of Trojans...
Monica and Rachel start talking seriously about how some days they just don't feel so "fresh..." ('nuff said.)
On Star Trek, the guys in red shirts suddenly show up with a Coke logo on their back.
Emeril starts using the amazing Ginsu Blade.

Think of the possibilities!

Re:But the advertisers...

[Quixadhal]

The concern most people have here, though, is not that they have a right not to view the ads; such a right is quite basic, as it goes hand-in-hand with your right not to view TV. This is quite different from a right, however, to view TV without the ads; when you accept an essentially free gift from the networks (however crappy the programming may be) you accept it on their terms; they would be well within their rights to say, "Don't like ads? Don't watch TV." As the ads become more pervasive, this is essentially what they are saying.

I don't accept the gift. I have cable television, which I pay for. Why then, do channels that exist ONLY on cable and satellite networks (Sci-Fi Channel comes to mind) have commercials?

I don't object (much) to commercials on broadcast television, even though I'm already paying for it through a portion of my cable bill. I do object to them on channels that have never had the burden of maintaining a broadcast tower, and have never been available on the free airwaves.

As has been stated many times before, the model of commercial television has been outdated for decades now. I should not have to watch idiotic commercials for products that I don't care about, and in many cases can't even apply to me... just because the networks have the same problem as the RIAA -- they can't think of a way to take advantage of current technology to create a viable business model, so they work to stifle alternatives and keep their old one alive.

Advertisements are a way of putting your message in a public place (the airwaves) so that the public can CHOOSE to watch them. Saying anything different is like saying that if a city worker stands on a street corner (which they built, and you didn't pay for), that you MUST stop and listen to everything they say as you walk past them to work.

"Ahhh, but you did pay for the street, through taxes!" Yes, my point exactly. I already paid for the network programming through the cable company's payment to carry it, and in some cases through things like a broadcasting service tax.

Re:But the advertisers...

[cens0r]

They would definately be against the archiving of shows. Take for instance HBO. do you think they want you to be able to save a high-quality version of the sopranos or sex and the city? Not a chance. If you could, then who would be buying the DVD's?

Re:But the advertisers...

[cyt0plas]

"I predict we'll either see show quality decline or cable costs go up."

Cable prices might go up, but I have a hard time envisioning show quality actually managing to take a turn downward.

Re:But the advertisers...

[IronChef]

...they would be well within their rights to say, "Don't like ads? Don't watch TV."

I don't believe they ARE within their rights to say that; a court will have to decide if that is the case. I never signed an agreement when I bought my TV. "They" beam data at me, I buffer the data and watch parts of it as I wish. If "they" don't like what I am doing, they have a few choices:

1. Make me pay for the data so they can force me to agree to use conditions. (why don't pay TV services do this already, I wonder? Surely someone like HBO has investigated the notion.)

2. Figure out some other way to make money.

3. Stop the service

of course the problem is option #4...

4. sue me or whoever enables me to "cheat" them.

If we ever do get to the point where behavior is controlled in this fashion, it will seriously be a nail in the coffin of free society.

First, Commercial Advance becomes illegal... OK, not there yet, it is just "impractical" because you get your ass sued for adding CA to a digital recorder.

Next thing you know, all tuners will by law prevent you from changing channels while an ad is on, and it will be a felony to bypass such a feature.

10 years after that we'll have a new Federal agency, the Advertising Revenue Bureau, and each citizen will need to file a quarterly report of "free" media consumed, a log of ads viewed, and a payment to make up for mandatory ads missed when you go to the bathroom. Oh, and there will be a small additional federal and state tax, paid directly to the RIAA/MPAA, to make up for the unavoidable accounting errors in your quarterly filings.

That's where we'll be when "don't like ads? don't watch" becomes enforceable by law.

Re:But the advertisers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, think about it though. $1/channel/month seems like a lot and that it would add up quickly. But. Even if there's only ONE show on each channel you subscribe to, that's ONLY 25 cents per episode (assuming 1 episode per week). 30 minutes or 1 hour, doesn't matter, that's pretty fucking good value for my money! Where else can you be entertained for 1 hour for a quarter?

Re:But the advertisers...

[Anonymous Coward]

...the more heavily a product is advertised the less there is an actual need for it...

...you'll see plenty [of ads] for soft drinks, antiperspirants...

Oh, I beg to differ. Same goes for oral hygiene products.

Re:But the advertisers...

[evilviper]

I don't think it's a lot any way you look at it...

Right now, my cable TV bill is over $40/month. I will admit that that is for numerous channels, but most of which I will never watch. A half dozen spanish-language stations, a dozen oddball sports stations (ESPN Classic? WTF?), 4 stations just for women, and countless other picece of crap.

Going through my TV settings, I have exactly 20 channels in my lineup. Unfortunately, 1/4th of those are my local TV stations, most of which have terrible programming, and I typcially watch each less than once a month if you don't count watching the News.

On to the news, in addition to my 5 local channels, another couple of my big 20 are basically news stations. That's right, all 7 suck so badly that I can't stand any one of them very much. Presumably, when ads are phased out, the quality of stations will rise dramtically, and I will probably only need 1 or 2 for news, definatly not 7...

Also, many of those stations only have a couple shows I watch, and then, not weekly. So, I'm paying something like $40/month for 5 channels (AND THOSE CHANNELS STILL HAVE ADS!). If those 5 were to go away, I wouldn't pay $0.10 for the rest...

Now, I have no doubt the the quality of programming across the board will go up when advertising is phased out, and not only will you be much happier watching without ads, and getting more use of them via a (cheap/free) PVR, but the programming will be much better quality, because they can no longer just be good enough that people don't write letters en-masse to their cable companies, they have to be good enough that people will check the box every month that says they will pay their $1 for that specific channel. The effects of consumer happiness are instant and direct, and channels will not have any other choice but to have good programming.

I suspect, for your $1/channel, you will have dozens of shows every month that are better than almost anything on our current networks.

Where else can you be entertained for 1 hour for a quarter?

Quite a good point. With a subscription to Netflix, assuming every DVD is 2hrs (they are usually shorter), and assuming the round trip for each DVD is 3 days (often longer, rarely shorter), and that you are perfect, and watch your DVDs the instant you get them, and return them to the mail right away... That totals up to an average of $2.60 for each hour of entertainment. And the great-ness of Netflix is still being raved about. Not that they are bad in any respect, but TV is just a much more effecient system, which means you can get a lot, for very little money.

Not a very good slogan for a company in trouble

[jkauzlar]

I should think that after putting themselves in a potentially bad marketing position in the first place, the last thing they should do is go with a slogan like "Costs more, less useful." It is respectable however that they should be so honest about their product.

But all seriousness aside, I vaguely remember an article posted on slashdot about a company named Enron that boasted of product features which a product didn't have. This could be construed as a tactic to drive up D&M holding's stock prices, as Enron employees are accused of doing. But I don't think this is the case. They are just a little frightened by the powerful fists of the media conglomerates and want to play it a little safe and probably rightfully so.

Re:Not a very good slogan for a company in trouble

[Anonymous Coward]

in all seriousness, you're an idiot. Read it again?

Re:Not a very good slogan for a company in trouble

[Anonymous Coward]

Moron.

Nick of time ..

[bizitch]

I guess I bought mine at the right time ...

Just before they raised the fees and before they wrecked the product ....

Hmmm ... cant wait to see what I can fetch on ebay for mine ....

Come on Mikey.

[grub]

Their new ad slogan will be "Costs More, Less Useful"

Is that really necessary from a (presumably) unbiased editor?

Re:Come on Mikey.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that really necessary from a (presumably) unbiased editor?

You must be new here. Wait... UID 11606? And you think Michael is unbiased? Did you buy this account on Ebay?

Re:Come on Mikey.

[FortKnox]

But... where would we be without michaels inane, thoughtless quips?

That was retorical.

And now, the downmod!

Re:Come on Mikey.

[outsider007]

here's my idea for a slogan:
'watch the god-damn commercials, biatch!'

Re:Come on Mikey.

[Nix0n]

Posted by michael on Tuesday June 10, @01:58PM

Is that really necessary from a (presumably) unbiased editor?

Uh.

Heh.

Hahah.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAH.

AAAAAH HA HA HA HA HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAA!!!

Re:Come on Mikey.

[evilviper]

I don't think /. editors have ever claimed to be unbiased, and you'd have to be blind to assume they were.

Re:Come on Mikey.

[PhxBlue]

Is that really necessary from a (presumably) unbiased editor?

I know it's been asked before, but I may as well ask again: where have the editors on Slashdot said they're unbiased? Where is it stated as a requirement that Slashdot editors be unbiased? An editor who doesn't have a bias wouldn't be able to pick the good stories from the bad. . . Slashdot's editors are just more vocal about their biases than others. Where editors of larger newspapers have to be discreet, /. can place the bias out on the table for everyone to see - which really is doing its readers a favor, since you don't have to read as critically to find out the editorial spin here as you would on, say, FoxNews.

Think of it as open source bias, if that will help. :)

Re:Come on Mikey.

[jamie]

Welcome to Slashdot.

Re:Come on Mikey.

[dark-br]

Is that really necessary from a (presumably) unbiased editor?

Unbiased editor? Come on, get a clue! This is /.

This should be the slogan...

"If u r not O'Reilly we donÂt review or we screw"

Re:Come on Mikey.

[Kadagan AU]

I agree... come on... "Costs More, Less Useful" was the slogan for WinME!

Re:Come on Mikey.

[UserGoogol]

This is a news message board with a heavily moderated way of submitting new topics. Editors, therefore, are just moderators. (A higher class than the "you get mod points now" variety.) I don't think Slashdot has any sort of a NPOV standard.

(What Slashdot should do is make the article format the same as the posting format. It'd make things more consistent.)

Re:Come on Mikey.

[poot_rootbeer]

Where is it stated as a requirement that Slashdot editors be unbiased?

It's not a Slashdot requirement, it's a requirement of legitimate journalism. But hey, maybe Slashdot doesn't aspire to that. (If that's the case, I would ask they take the word 'news' off their masthead.)

As I say every time he spouts off, if Michael has an opinion about a story submission, he should post it as a comment in response to the story, the same way the rest of us have to. It's an abuse of his position (however flippantly the editors take their duties) to use the story summary as a soapbox for his personal opinions.

Re:Come on Mikey.

[FortKnox]

With all due respect, don't you think that one-sided stabs and heavy opinions shouldn't be put on the ends of articles, but should, instead, be placed in the comments? Whats the general opinion on that stance with the editors?

Re:Come on Mikey.

[michaelepley]

since you don't have to read as critically to find out the editorial spin here as you would on, say, FoxNews.

You don't really need to read critically to see FoxNews is biased.

Re:Come on Mikey.

[PhxBlue]

I don't think Slahdot is so much legit journalism as it is legitimized blogging. Real journalism entails a lot more than grabbing stories from other websites and saying "discuss!" after all. But if Michael in particular bugs you, just ignore him. I know there's a setting somewhere for that. . .

Re:Come on Mikey.

[poot_rootbeer]

But if Michael in particular bugs you, just ignore him. I know there's a setting somewhere for that...

But this isn't a JonKatz kind of hate, where I don't want his articles to show up at all.

I like the articles that michael approves. I just don't like his approach to commenting on them.

Re:Come on Mikey.

[jamie]

"With all due respect, don't you think that one-sided stabs and heavy opinions shouldn't be put on the ends of articles, but should, instead, be placed in the comments?"

Of course not; where did you get this idea? I'm surprised that this stupid meme that Slashdot is just another unbiased news source ever got started. Of course we share our biases, it's part of our charm.

Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

"D&M Holdings Inc. on Tuesday said that after having been paid $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 by a number of unspecified advertisers, they were pleased to announced that their new ReplayTV digital television recorder will not include controversial features such as automatically skipping commercials and sharing shows via the Internet." Come on, lay it on the line.

Freevo and Mytv sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

What you really wan't is the Debian Video Studio. a project by the debian team to make a free pvr for debian systems

bad economy

[u19925]

earlier, companies used to make devices which will enable users to do things they wanted. now they are providing "upgrade" which will take away those features. does anyone know why the economy is so bad?

Market Share

[Multics]

And how do they think they're going to have any market share?

This reminds me of Sony's inability to select feature sets for consumer electronics that make sense. One normally ADDs features as one goes up the line, not (seemingly) randomly have some and not others.

Litigation vs No Market Share -- sure seems like an unpleasant set of choices to me.

Keep those free PVR reviews coming! Do we need an 'open' source of TV listings?

-- Multics

This stinks

[emo boy]

Now I have to actually watch a commercial. I was looking forward to skipping through them with the greatest of ease. I did kinda feel bad though for all those rising and talented actors in the commercials. They have families and....well second families to feed with that income. And if they decide to let us skip through infomercials then the Orange Clean guy is gone too!!!!!!
Maybe this isn't too bad after all...

Don't get so worked up.

[stanmann]

Doesn't automagically skip comercials doesn't mean you can't do a 15/30 second skip or jump forward. Just means that the box won't have the current feature which autodetects and skips commercials. Obviously, a compromise solution, but not earthshattering or skybreaking.

Re:Don't get so worked up.

[mh_tang]

Also, it should be mentioned that the current implementation of the Commercial Advance, while automatic, is not 100% effective. People have reported it being anywhere from 80%-90% accurate only.

I know a lot of people on AVS Forum have turned off the automatic Commercial Advance feature and just used the old manual skipping method you've outlined. Your mileage may vary.

Re:Don't get so worked up.

[Mr. McGibby]

Why should they have to comprimise with anyone? They should answer to their customers, not the media companies.

Re:Don't get so worked up.

[ChrisCampbell47]

Doesn't automagically skip comercials doesn't mean you can't do a 15/30 second skip or jump forward.

Most people end up checking out the replies to their own comment sooner or later, so maybe you'll see this, stanmann.

There aren't technically any double-negatives in that statement, but there might as well be. I'm sure the sentence made sense coming out of your head, but the spoken word and written word are two different things. Next time you have a lot of negatives in a sentence, you should try to re-write it so it's more a positive statement -- readers will be much more likely to follow it. The point of posting is to get your point across, right?

Just an idea ... writing well (including scrupulously eliminating spelling and grammatical errors) will serve you well, if for no other reason because it keeps the reader focused on your ideas instead of your mistakes.

Re:Don't get so worked up.

[BandwidthHog]

Just listened to a little blurb about this on NPR, and they're overlooking that as well. In fact, I think I detected the faintest implication that not only are DVR users now unable to ever miss a commercial again for any reason, but they may also be liable for catching up on back commercial watchage. Or something like that.

Re:I SLASHED my LIBERAL neighbors TIRES!

[Anonymous Coward]

good work, but the prius is made by toyota.

civilization is once again slowed...

[waytoomuchespresso]

...from gaining useful technology. There is something seriously wrong with the interactions of corporations between themselves and then that impact refected onto society...
Perhaps a lack of a personality, ethics, independent goals, etc. Perhaps a rethink of the legal fictions would be in order.

Content providers vs. Media tools providers

[ites]

Companies with content simply can't bring themselves to create decent media tools. Look at Sony, handicapping themselves because they own Columbia records, while Apple do the right thing by the consumer, digitizing every media format they can.

It just goes to show how the "synergy" arguments of the 1990's are actually complete bullshit.

Re:Content providers vs. Media tools providers

[geekoid]

no, synergy works fine, when both sides have the same goal. It fails, like all teams, when the members each play to there own agenda and never agree upon specific goals.

costs more / less useful

[larry bagina]

reminds me of... slashdot

The Company name...

[Nexzus]

D&M Holdings Inc., may as well be called DRM Holdings Inc.

Someone WILL release a crack!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like Itunes was cracked when it was crippled, somebody will release a patch for this too.

This Changes Nothing Important

[joel8x]

The internet sharing feature was crappy because it was slow and there was too much work involved to get something that you can get from Bit Torrent faster. The automatic commercial skip was flaky (I turned it off right away anyway) because you always ended up with snippets of show missing. As long as I have my 30 second skip button on my remote than I'm happy.

Re:This Changes Nothing Important

[Scyber]

Actually the newer software was much less likely to skip over actually show content. Even on shows like 24 and Buffy where the older software version often skipped shows.

correct story title:

[Tumbleweed]

ReplayTV DVR to Remove Users

In other news, TiVo marketshare way, way up! :)

As Bugs Bunny would say, "What a buncha maroons."

Re:Like the net?

[waytoomuchespresso]

Exactly like the net.

In related news...

[DailyGrind]

I remove their access to my credit card.

And I tell my friends...

And they tell their friends....

And so on and so on... ...oh wait... We don't live in the states... ...damn... I got to stop reading ./ it's bad for my blood pressure

TV listings.

[jhill]

Someone mentioned something about an "open source" TV listings. For these free PVRs that are coming out, how/where do you get your TV listings from? Or do you just use the old school VCR method of plugging in a time/channel and get just that showing. As compared to a Tivo where you can say grab all these shows/season pass manager, etc.

Re:TV listings.

[andrewdm]

xmltv for open source listings. Read about it here.

Works with the front end of your choice (a few suggestions)

Linux:
MythTV.
Freevo.

Windows:
SageTV.
MyHTPC.

Also, LOTS of good reading at the Home Theater Forums (the Linux forum is embedded under that link).

All of the above systems allow you to use on-screen listings, search for programs by schedule, name, category, etc. They learn favorites and do everything tivo does, best I've been able to tell.

I've been a Tivo user for a year and a half now. Couldn't live without it - until I get my HTPC set up and running the DVR for me on my home network. Just got the green light from my fiancee for that summer project.

Re:TV listings.

[dago]

as nobody replies to it, in Europe, for cable TV, it relies on electronic program guides usually published by national TVs, with the help of nxtvepg.

The main format used is xmltv (see other post) and some other grabbers exists.

Re:TV listings.

[Ulven]

*sigh*

None of these - or any similar system - will do anything with my digital Nova-t card.

Seems the one time I look to the future, I get slammed in the present, espcially as the Hauppauge software is so bad

That was a little too ambitious.

[Prince_Ali]

Those are both well known websites. You might as well try that when someone links to redhat.com.

Hmm...

[pkunzipper]

So what is it good for? I already have a VCR.

The masses screwed again.

[Carnth]

Why strip out the share-over-the-internet feature as well? Wouldnâ(TM)t this effectively "share" the commercials that the media giants want everyone to see? This is really sad. Just when you thought technology could work for everyone, The Man comes in with a big lawsuit and stops it in its tracks. This is the RIAA. This is big Petroleum. This is pissing me off.

how does autoskipping commercials work?

[kavau]

How did the older Replay units manage to automatically skip commercials? Off the top of my head, I can think only of two solutions: 1) the broadcaster identifies the beginning and end of commercials with a hidden signal; or 2) the unit is preprogrammed with start and end times of commercial breaks.

Regarding case 1, why would the broadcaster do that? Since they are interested in everyone watching the commercials, they would hurt themselves by broadcasting such a signal.

In case 2, the broadcaster could simply circumvent the automatic skipping mechanism by semi-randomly shifting the commercial times, or by varying the length of commercial breaks.

Probably it's case 3, namely the one I didn't think of. Is anyone in the know?

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[MarkLR]

Commericals often have a higher volume than the television show. They also may have different display characteristics.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[stanmann]

There is some kind of signal. I'm not sure what it is, or how it works, but AFAICT, that is how commercials are detected. And IIRC, there were at one point VCRs that could detect the signal as well.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just a one-touch 30 second fast forward button. It doesn't "automatically" skip commercials. For what it's worth, I remember seeing a piece of hardware somewhere which actually did sense commercial breaks based on some intelligent criteria (sense the fade out, change in audio, CC signals, etc). It could switch to a secondary video source during the commercial. It cost way too much (around $400).

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Poeir]

I don't think this is how it worked, but I think this is a method that would allow skipping commercials: Add a "this is a commercial" button to the remote. There's a brief moment between commercials when no video plays, so if you tell the machine that you're looking at a commercial, it can wait for the next lack-of-video before it continues recording, and next time it sees that sequence of video, ignore it. It's possible this is somewhat what it already did. Very few different shows will have the exact same video played at arbitrary points, excepting awards shows and the like, so when you see it, ignore it. You'd need some sort of expiration time for any given commercial, to prevent using unnecessary space, but it shouldn't use up any more than having the commercial inside the program anyway, it just won't be displayed.

Alternately, you can keep an eye out for the "We'll be right back" and "Welcome back to" segments.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Radius9]

It worked simply by detecting the volume increase. Commercials *tend* to be at higher volume than the shows, so by searching for an increase in volume that continues for some amount of time, you can detect the commercials. It works most of the time, but I always thought the 30 second skip was better, because if it decided to not record something in my show because the volume detect did not work, then I would just get pissed off. The 30 second skip is easy enough to use.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[pridkett]

If pay close attention to the TV, you'll notice that there is brief black screen between the cut out from the show and the commercial. Most systems pick those up.

Your other option is too look at the code in MythTV and see how that does it. Now if only there was an option to cut out the useless banter in Jeopardy I would be in heaven.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Somewhere it was stated that the chips 'listen' to the sound channel, and look for noticable increases in sound volume. This signals the beginning of a commercial break. Eventually (almost always 1800 seconds later), the sound level goes back to the previous level. This signals the end of a commercial break. Because of the time-shifting nature of the device (delayed playback of the recorded stream), the computer can actually do a long term histogram and make a pretty reasonable guess.

Apparently, some networks got wind of the idea, and started dinking with the sound levels to foil the box (and were successful.)

I don't know, but an intelligent box could look for a simultaneous change in video - you really only need to look for a 'fade to black' before bothering to check sound levels.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're big enough, a realistic solution is simply to have people watch all channels and press buttons when commercials start/stop. This information can then be sent to all units either over the air or a constant internet connection. I remember some service like this existing for a short period, though I think they were shut down.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy, ever notice how commercials are louder than the regular show?

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Tingler]

because if it decided to not record something in my show because the volume detect did not work, then I would just get pissed off

Actually, The replay unit records the entire show & activates the commercial skip during the playback.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[YrWrstNtmr]

In case 2, the broadcaster could simply circumvent the automatic skipping mechanism by semi-randomly shifting the commercial times, or by varying the length of commercial breaks.

No, they couldn't. At least not with today's current ad model.

The commercials are not simply put in randomly. There is a very strict heiarchy of what commercials go where in the sequence. Picture a 30 min TV show. Usually, 3 commercial blocks. Just before the show, midway through, and end. The order of the commercials is actually quite important as regards audience retention. i.e. you're more likely to remember a product in a commercial in slot A than slot C. And yes...advertisers DO track that stuff, and are charged accordingly. Better placement = more $$ to air that commercial.

Also, a TV show is built around commercial breaks at specified minutes. Random insertion or different length breaks would destroy the flow of the show.

Finally, not all the commercials come from the same source. During a network show, some come from network HQ (See the new Fords!) and some come from the local broadcaster (Lo lo prices at Fred's Friendly Ford Farm out on Route 8!). No way to sync those two if commercial breaks are not preplanned.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[blazin]

So far this is the only reply to the question that is correct. Or at least the most correct. Typically when the auto-magic commercial advance feature fails (skips when it shouldn't, doesn't skip when it should) is during shows that have a lot of dark scenes, or even pans across a wall where the screen becomes black. It will often commercial advance at that point.

When it doesn't jump past commercials you'll see there is not a black frame between the end of the show and the next commercial. I don't think it has anything to do with the sound volume.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[DerProfi]

WRONG. The 30-second skip button (which has been present since the first ReplayTV) isn't going away. Commercial Advance (the new feature first added to the 4000 series which automatically skips commercials without button-presses) IS going away.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Enzo1977]

To answer your question about identifying between programming and commercials, I recall there was a VCR that used to detect that between the break of programming to the commercial would be a brief period of black/blank without any audio. If you watch closely this still applies before the commercial start, and after they end. Itâ(TM)s a trigger I've gotten accustomed to while watching TV. If the programming cut away for that near fraction of a second to a black/blank screen I knew the commercials would be coming on. Likewise the commercials run into each other, with very little delay between them. But after the last commercial there was always that near fraction of a second of black/blank screen and the programming began again. Are there other transmitted signals that prompt when the commercials are about to begin and end? Maybe, but the example I gave is the most obvious to human senses.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Lucent]

There are probably a lot of ways to detect commercials. ReplayTV doesn't go by time. Think about what changes when a commercial comes on. The picture, the overscan area, the audio. All it'd have to do is watch for the audio to drastically change, like stereo to mono or cut in and out, the overscan area to drop in and out (closed captioning, XDS), and screen blanking. If two out of three happen, a commercial probably started.

Re:how does autoskipping commercials work?

[Frogbert]

It seems to me the answer is simple, here in Australia the commercials are louder then the television programs, this of course is illegal but the networks just use "Compression" rather then increasing the decebels. This effectively makes the commercial _sound_ louder even though it isn't, as far as im concerned if something sounds louder then it is louder... but I digress. To detect when a commercial is beginning you would have to analyse the sound for compression, im no sound engineer but that seems possible.

Other PVRs

[Omega1045]

Other than MythTV (which I am going to check out later), are there any other video recorder projects out there one should know about?

Re:Other PVRs

[Darth Maul]

There is also FreeVo.

I'm using MythTV on a dedicated box in my home theater, and it's been working wonderfully. Myth is farther along, and seems to have a bigger developer base.

Just wait for the marketing

[chia_monkey]

An interesting point to consider with this whole ordeal. For us Slashdotters, we're rambling on about features and cracks. By the time this thing gets out to Circuit City with the stripped features, the common masses will have no idea they've been "robbed". They'll just go with the marketing that they are fed. "As good as TiVo" or "better than your VCR". For us geeks, this is news. For the average consumer (who STILL doesn't get the joys of TiVo), they won't even notice.

Re:Just wait for the marketing

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure. "Us Slashdotters" are so much smarter than the rest of the world, there's no way the unwashed masses "out there" might make an informed decision before parting with their hard-earned cash.

Once again, the elitism that can be seen on Slashdot is incredible... even if it's not intentional, but that only makes it worse.

True, there's the proverbial people who can't set their VCR clocks or use CD trays as cup holders. But those are generally not the people who ENJOY electronics and gadgets, so they're not going to be interested in this. The people who MIGHT be interested in ReplayTV are perfectly capable of doing a bit of research before spending their money - even if it only comes down to asking a teenager or reading the list of features on the ReplayTV and TiVo boxes. Just because they don't read Slashdot or aren't planning to hack the box they buy doesn't mean they're incapable of making an informed decision.

Re:Just wait for the marketing

[chia_monkey]

I can see where people may infer elitism in some of these postings. And having worked in the tech industry I've seen it displayed at a vulgar level. But the intention here was to point out that we are privy to news that most people are not aware of. Hell, I don't even own a TiVo, yet I'm reading over this with great interest. Why? Because it's interesting.

The fact of the matter is, this information really hasn't been released to the general public. Sure you can dig it up if you want to, but you're not going to open up your Sunday paper and read about how ReplayTV took the features out. When someone is ready to buy one, they will go to their store, they will look online, they will read reviews and decide on what system to buy that is currently available.

The same holds true for any industry. Only people attending an auto show will see all the features that are supposed to be in the next Chevy Impala. When it actually comes out next year, they'll say "where in the hell is my built-in GameBoy Advance?" whereas someone walking into the dealership will go "ohhhh...wow, look at the 50 new features!"

ReplayTV may be a viable option when it's released. Marketing may make it seem better than a TiVo. When it comes out, do your research and decide what's best for you.

Re:Just wait for the marketing

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll just go with the marketing that they are fed: "As good as TiVo"

Hey - that's a good slogan right there, boy.

Re:Just wait for the marketing

[Phanatic1a]

They'll just go with the marketing that they are fed. Oh. Just like they did with DIVX, right?

Customer pressure?

[st0rmshad0w]

Popular opinion (here at least) is that customer pressure will force features back into crippled devices. Can anyone actually find a case where this has happened?

And whatever happened with the commercial skipping features that briefly appeared on VHS units a few years back?

Re:Customer pressure?

[PhxBlue]

Popular opinion (here at least) is that customer pressure will force features back into crippled devices. Can anyone actually find a case where this has happened?

There was the DVD vs. DivX battle a couple years ago - DivX was crippled, compared to DVD, because the silly box had to "phone home" whenever you viewed a movie. Most people believe that, when they buy a movie, they have the right to watch it whenever they want without paying beyond the original purchase; so of course DivX flopped.

Also, look how well music CDs that are crippled sell. Celine Dion's latest CD had some sort of copy protection on it that totally FUBARed CD-Rom drives on iMacs, if I recall. I don't have statistics handy, but it doesn't require a great logical leap to imagine the impact that probably had on sales of the crippled CD.

Crippled devices are similar enough to downgrading technology that most people won't want to do it. Why pay more for less? It just doesn't make sense.

Re:Customer pressure?

[st0rmshad0w]

I don't think I can give you either of those. DivX was its own technology (sortof) and crippled CD's are closer to media perversion (anyone remember bad sectors on C64 floppies?). I want actual tech _devices_ (media is a different animal) that had features re-included after being removed. Take this as an example. Lets say DVD players were released from day one with no region coding ability whatsoever. Then 2 years later it gets introduced. Whammo, crippled device. Would customer complaints actually get region coding removed in this example? Frankly I doubt it.

Re:Customer pressure?

[Anonymous Coward]

celeron2 is a crippled POS.(not like the fantastic original 300a and it's bretheren)

geforce4mx (what a joke)

iTunes just had it's sharing-across-subnets ability removed...and YES, my apartment has multiple subnets(i'm studying for my CCNA)

Re:Customer pressure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Popular opinion (here at least) is that customer pressure will force features back into crippled devices. Can anyone actually find a case where this has happened?

New Coke?

Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[hirschma]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it appears to me that both of the projects cannot handle a fairly basic function - changing the channels of my cable box to record something. Seems like that feature is a wee bit more important than some of the other wonderful things like grabbing weather maps :)

If the can do this, it sure is hidden from the documentation.

Re:Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure they can, but you have to be a little resourceful. Check this MythTV FAQ entry, which reads in part:

In the setup program, under "Input Connections", you can configure a command to run whenever the channel needs to be changed on an input which does not have a tuner.

Thus, you can simply (for relatively hairy values of simply) hook up an IR transmitter and send channel change commands to your cable box.

Re:Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[Darth Maul]

Umm, yes it can. If you use a decoder box (I use a DISH network satellite), then you can use an IR dongle to transmit to the box and change channels when Myth needs to. It's similar to what TiVo does when it depends on an external box for channel tuning.

Re:Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[RyanFenton]

Actually, both use Lirc to let you use a remote control to control many things. It's indirect, but effective. It's a sizeable portion of the FAQ & Documentation in MythTV at least. You'll need some kind of infrared detector on your system. You can either get an independant IR card, or many Hauppauge TV models have it included.

Ryan Fenton

Re:Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[eyver]

I don't use either one, but changing channels is handled by your video input card. Both MythTV and Freevo, I assume, can control channel changing for recording if your card is supported.

If you have an external cable box, you're right, it won't change those channels for you. But then again, a standard VCR won't do that either, I don't think. There are video input cards that can handle standard cable TV and maybe digital too.

Re:Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[Anonymous Coward]

like, duh.

If you plug the analog cable in the tuner card (funny name huh) switches channels for you.

If you need to use an external box you need to build or buy a cable / ir transmitter thing which at least on the mythtv site is pretty easy to find (see adding support for an external tuner in the documentation section)

Re:Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[hobbesx]

In addition to using an IR dongle to fire commands off to your cable box (which has already been mentioned above), you can also use a serial cable to control certain units (more details here).

Re:Can MythTV or Freevo change channels?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are also IR units that plug into the serial port.

Fine

[Jack Comics]

That's fine with me, considering I *still* haven't gotten a replacement for the defective ReplayTV 5040 I shipped to SonicBlue back in January. Five months later, and I haven't heard a peep out of 'em. Oh well. I guess I got screwed out of the $300. After that, I could never recommend a PVR to anybody, as I know I'll never use PVR again.

Re:Fine

[spacedx]

Did you happen to *gasp* pick up the phone to call them to see what was wrong? Did you *horror* write a letter to customer service detailing your situation? Or did you perhaps *shock* reverse the charges if you purchased with a credit card and have your bank do all the legwork?

Just because you don't have the sense to follow up when something is obviously wrong doesn't mean PVRs aren't a fantastic product. How will they know something is wrong if you don't tell them? For all they know, your PVR return was processed but someone in shipping walked off with it as a birthday present for his girlfriend. With the volume of business they do sometimes cases like yours slip through the cracks. Obviously that $300 doesn't mean much to you if you didn't take 15 minutes to figure out why you didn't get your replacement unit.

Anyway, I swear by PVRs. I recommend them to anyone who will listen.

How to complain!

[Anonymous Coward]

Contact Information

Headquarters :

Digital Networks North America (DNNA)
2600 San Tomas Expressway
Santa Clara, CA 95051-0953

1-800-468-5846 Customer Service Number
(408) 588-8585 Automated phone number
(408) 980-5444 Fax number

European headquarters
SONICblue Inc
400 Thames Valley Park Drive
Reading
Berkshire
RG6 1PT
+44 118 963 7420 Telephone
+44 118 963 7620 Facsimile
www.sonicblue-europe.com (English)

SONICblue Japan, Inc. (Asia&Pacific)
ASK-Nihonbashi Bldg.,
15-17, Nihonbashi-Kodenmacho,
Chuo-ku, Tokyo 103-0001
www.sonicblue.co.jp (Japanese)
www.sonicblue.co.jp/Asia&Pacific (English)

SONICblue Web Site Contact
email: webmaster@digitalnetworksna.com

Sheesh!

[Thud457]

You're a geek, write a screen scraper for this.

PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[btempleton]

Many people have proposed doing DVRs with old standard PCs using ideally, open source software. Sounds great, more flexible, everything wonderful.

Until you look at the power. Check how much more power that always-on PC takes than a standalone box. Here in California, for example, every watt of 24/7 power costs $1.13 per year or more. So a 200 watt PC costs over $200 per year to run, $150 more than say, a 50 watt standalone device. Not to mention the damage to the environment.

In other words, you can pay for the standalone device pretty quickly, even if you had a "free" PC just stting around.

Now you could fix this problem if you could arrange for the PC to go into a sleep mode when it doesn't have anything to do, at the cost of waiting a little longer to come up when you turn it on to watch something with the remote. This requires the PC have in it a sleep mode with a clock which allows you to say, "Wake up in 3 hours". How many have this? How many have coded for it.

The standalone device can also do this easily.

And you lose the "always recording something to spare disk space" feature that people love about the Tivo.

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[SlashDread]

Bla,

all the things you mention could be solveble by picking the right hardware. Im no current on slick barebones, but ask the right geek and hell come up with one. Including a hardware powersave feature, linux compatible.

I say its a valid business opportunity for SCO in the near future..

peace /Dread

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[btempleton]

Depends on your definition of solvable. It unfortunately eliminates the popular idea of repurposing older PCs (which there are vast numbers of) as appliance machines. For the same reason, using an old PC as a NAT box rather than buying a $50 standalone one is crazy too. (Unless you make serious use of the extra firewall features you can get.)

So if you need to buy new PC hardware with new power control features to get your PC based DVR, it isn't as compelling. Because it's going to cost a lot more than the standalone box.

It also doesn't change my main point that people seem to forget about the power cost in the equation when picking PCs for appliance applications. Notebooks, on the other hand, only draw about 15-20 watts, and are a great choice if you can make it work. They usually can't take mpeg encoder cards.

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[rzbx]

One should use an ITX motherboard then. mini-itx.com for more info. They supply a 55 watt DC power supply for the motherboards, although the cost (about $60) is a bit high.

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[RecoveredMarketroid]

Are your electricity costs REALLY that high? The Ontario government capped ours at 4.3 cents/kilowatt hour. This works out to about $75 (CANADIAN) per year (assuming that 200W are drawn continuously, which, as another poster pointed out, is unrealistic).

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[btempleton]

Yes, power is that high. The 4.3 cent power in Ontario is heavily subsidized right now.

Actually, sadly, the 13 cents/kwh in California is also subsidized, sort of. During the manufactured power crisis, it was far more than that, and the state paid $8B to subsidize it which we are still paying back.

So do we have some real power figures for these PCs with big drives, mpeg cards, suitable tv-out video cards etc.? 200w was just an example. Most people have more like a 300w power supply, though of course they don't use all of it. My understanding is most people are using at least 100w.

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention the damage to the environment.

Why don't you mention it? Could it be because there isn't any?

And you lose the "always recording something to spare disk space" feature that people love about the Tivo.

I don't see why... a PC could just as easily do the exact same thing. Hell, it could do it better.

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, Brad. (Oh, Janet.)

Power does matter, but the PC can approach the standalone device. About the only real difference might be that the MPEG-encoding-and-decoding hardware might be more efficient than a processor running software codecs, or something like that.

Nobody is saying that you have to use your dual overclocked Athlons for this job. These kind of projects are one of the great justifications for motherboards that use processors like PPC (e.g. AmigaOne, bPlan), or even VIA's x86-compatable chips, or stuff like that. p. And frankly, even if it did cost $200 per year for freedom, I'd pay. Heck, I give more than that to EFF. ;)

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

To encode MPEG2 in real time, you need either:

1: A hardware MPEG 2 card such as the WinTV PVR (about $100, usually)

or

2: A hot processor

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[SlashDread]

I think you step on two thoughts here: one, building a PVR is something a USER can do. (True, but not for the cost of a TIVO, unless one is a hacker of sorts, which defeats the purpose of a simple appliance)

Two, It aint economical because of the power req. But this one holds only true to businesses IMHO. For some reason, I cannot imagine a 16 y/o hacker to be worried about wattage.

The problem could be solved by a OS business selling TIVO services... Thats what I ment really.

gr /Dread

Re:PC Based DVR is alas, not the answer

[hysterik]

The answer is to do other things with your Linux based PVR (thank you MythTV), so that if it is running 24/7, at least you're getting your money's worth. I have already given thought to using the Linux box I have on all the time (shell access, web, game server, webcam, etc) in this manner. Now all I need to do is figure out how to have it communicate with my D* receiver to do things like turn it on and change the channel.

Random Thoughts from a ReplayTV User...

[DigitalSorceress]

I own two ReplayTVs - older model 3000 units. These are dinosaurs in the PVR world - they use a 56K modem to dial up for their program listings and only have a 30 second skip button. No auto-skip, and they can't even share with each other.

As far as I can tell, the older units like mine are pretty much at the end of their software cycle -the only updates will be program guide info and new phone numbers at this point.

A friend of mine owns some of the new units (4000's I think) and they're pretty cool - the commercial skip and the sharing/playing from room-to-room are features that I've drooled over more than once. I would have gone out and replaced my current units with some like hers, but she mentioned about how they keep updating the software with "improvements" that only seem to get buggier and buggier as they go. She worries that the next round of "improvements" will turn the commercial skip and sharing off, or might change the way guaranteed vs non-guaranteed recording will be handled.

After (vicariously) going through the ups and downs of buggy updates and worries about what they will break this week, I decided that as nice as all those new features might be, the ReplayTV people are too likely to mess stuff up.

I've decided that I'll do whatever I can to keep my two "dinosaurs" running as long as possible. I love the possibilities the new technology could bring, but the skittishness of the ReplayTV people (this isn't the first time there's been talk about commercial skip being removed) makes me uncomfortable about slapping a large sum of cash down on the counter at my local A/V store.

If I were to upgrade, it would be to get the very features the new management wants to delete. No thanks.

missing features...

[Skyleth]

coult it be possible that the unit will include these features, they will just be "locked away" some where? all that you'd need is a small hack? like those APEX DVD players back in the day when you could make them region free.

But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo has a user interface that is orders of magnitude better. Commercial skipping was the one thing that kept my housemate and I from beating down our ReplayTV like that scene from Office Space and then getting our old TiVo back. TiVo was so intuitive and easy to use, whereas ReplayTV was a nightmare. (Not to mention the "update" that Replay automatically uploaded which caused our Replay to turn off right when when we turned it on. Everyone who got that update had to return it and get a new Replay sent to them. HUGE hassle...)

Great Deal for ReplayTV

[Babbster]

WITH Commercial Advance. For the next three days, apparently they are closing out factory-renewed 40-hour ReplayTV 5040 units WITH Commercial Advance. Not only that, but the site also says that these units are coming with lifetime service. The total cost is $330(!!). You can get them at SONICblue. I'm not in the market since I'm still happy with my "ancient" ReplayTV and just can't justify buying a new one, but it's the best PVR deal I've seen for a factory renewed unit (as opposed to a used unit bought privately).

but dvrs are soo usefull

[Anonymous Coward]

we wouldent be able to do this with out it

TiVo/Replay through PCs

[Bombula]

Can anyone bring us up to speed on where the replication of TiVo functionality on home computers stands? Seems like with today's video cards it would just be a matter of software, in which case a free utility would be handy dandy - although I suppose some of those cards are more expensive than a TiVo...

Solution to 30 second skip

[Greyfox]

40 second commercials.

Actually PVRs make a lot of stuff possible with commercials that wasn't possible before, if only someone creative enough would come along and exploit the opportunities. It could be as much a boon to advertisers as it is a bane. The fact that no one actually has done anything indicates just how creativity-starved the media companies really are.

Skipping Commercials.... Stealing? But...

[R-2-RO]

So if I get up to go to the bathroom, or when I start flipping channels during commercials, I'm stealing?

Or is it the automagic skipping that has folks upset? When I see a commercial, I automatically skip it anyway.. so boom there. Sux for me. I'm a crook!

Or maybe...

[dark-br]

One should give Linux DVR a try. It runs on computers equipped with one or more video capture cards. It can record and compress audio and video in real time, using recent codecs like DivX or Indeo 5 for example.

if they could only make my channel lineup correct

[carlback]

damn things been wrong for a week now. How long does it take too make sure the xml feed is right?

I really like my replay 4500 and my girlfriend defiantly likes it (there is way to much reality T.V. going on in the house.) But my freevo box also works with more features it plays divx's so i can tell you which is going to win out in my house

VCR?

[siskbc]

They said that when the VCR came out, that TV would be dead within two years. So in 1986, I stopped watching TV, since the two years had elapsed by then, and figured why wait until the screen faded to black since that would be really sad.

So for the last 17 years, I didn't watch TV until someone told me this year, hey, TV never died, it was there all along. I was really happy, and I watched some really great shows like Jackass, but now you fuckers are telling me this TiVo shit is going to kill TV again! Fuck!

Well, I'm not waiting around for the end. I'm giving up TV. I just think it's shitty that people are always talking about some box killing broadcast TV. I'm gonna break all those fucking boxes.

Re:Skipping Commercials.... Stealing? But...

[Thud457]

Getting up to go to the bathroom is a special dispensation since you're actually giving back the raw material that commercials are made of.

Going to the fridge is right out, though.

Wow, thanks - mod patent up!

[RyanFenton]

And definetly on-topic, what with all the commercial-skipping going out of commercial products!

Ryan Fenton

Re:Wow, thanks - mod patent up!

[realdpk]

I never thought I'd see the day that someone on /. would be asking to mod a patent up.

OMFG $150 a year!!!! The horror!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

OMFG $150 a year!!!! The horror!!!!

Re:Skipping Commercials.... Stealing? But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you are stealing and as your punishment you will be strapped to a chair and have toothpicks keep your eyelids open while Cleareyes is slowly dripped into your eyes to keep them moist... and oh yeah did I mention a catheter..

It's called the fast-forward button

[At0miC]

Know it, use it, love it...

200 watts!?

[BlueWaldo]

Your computer sitting idol waiting to record a show is not going to use 200 watts. If you have a 200-watt power supply that means that is the max it can output. If you computer isnâ(TM)t doing anything (most of the time unless you record 12 hours of TV a day) nothing will be using power except some fans and they can be setup to slow down when they are not needed.

Re:200 watts!?

[LazyBoy]

If you computer isn't doing anything (most of the time unless you record 12 hours of TV a day) nothing will be using power except some fans and they can be setup to slow down when they are not needed.

Actually, if it's following the Tivo methodology, it is encoding, recording, writing, reading, and decoding 24 hours a day. That's how you get to pause live tv -- by watching it through a sliding buffer storage.

Re:200 watts!?

[alteran]

Uhm... wrong. When TiVo's off, it's pretty much in what computer users think of as sleep mode. There's no sliding buffer when it's off, it just starts the buffer from when you turned it back on.

Re:200 watts!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhmm..... wrong, you don't turn your Tivo off... it runs all the time, unless you unplug it.

kthxbye

Is "pause and resume elsewhere" an OK compromise?

[dspyder]

So they taketh away outright sharing, but it sounds like you can still access your recordings on another device to finish viewing the recording in another room, etc. It accomplishes almost the same thing... so is that an acceptable compromise?

The major side of me says absolutely not. I paid to receive it, I recorded it myself, I'm storing it on my own purchased hardware, I can do what I want with it... but a small part of me says you have to be able to protect copyrights to some extent, so as long as they're giving me some reasonable options that let me do what I want to do then Ok.....

Now, I would like to be able to quickly/easily share something I've watched with a coworker or friend (like "Most Extreme Elimination Challenge" on TNN, the best show you're not watching) or have kids watch the same show as we're watching in our bedroom... so if they let me do that, and play anywhere in my house.... what do I care about DRM?

Tough thoughts........

--D

Secret code

[Eevee]

And I thought it was Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start.

Re:Secret code

[lucifuge31337]

And I thought it was Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start.

Isn't that "everyone hates you" in GTA3?

Re:Secret code

[Mattb90]

You've obviously played GTA3 on a PS2 enough to know there aren't A or B buttons on the DualShock 2...

Re:Secret code

[jtcm]

And I thought it was Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start.

Careful!

If you have a version III TiVo it might self-destruct when you use that code

Use L and R instead of right and left and you'll be fine ;-)

This is exactly why

[bnenning]

I got an EyeTV for my Mac instead of a Tivo or ReplayTV. Not so much because it's cheaper, but because it's not dependent on a third party and therefore can't be crippled by entertainment industry weasels.

No....

[nojomofo]

You've got it wrong. That's the secret sequence to get you infinite lives in Contra on Nintendo....

Not Unbiased, Unprofessional

[TrollBridge]

Other posters correctly point out that /. editors never claimed objectivity on anything they report.

That said, childish editorial only makes the site look unprofessional, and reflects poorly upon those who run it.

Re:Not Unbiased, Unprofessional

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how modding unpopular opinions as 'troll' reflects on those who run the site...

I know how it reflects in MY mind.

Thoughts

[stinky wizzleteats]

I've had a TiVo for some time now, and, like other PVR owners, I've really become a fanatic.

I love fast forwarding during commercials, but I've noticed that I am generally inconsistent in doing so. If the commercial is entertaining enough, I'll forget to fast forward. Inevitably, however, I hit a used car ad or something like that which will remind me that I don't have to watch that tripe. To me, this window of opportunity on the part of advertisers is fair game. If they can make an ad so that it will not annoy me, then they'll get a viewer. (Hell, I've even rewinded particularly cool ads to deliberately look at them) I can see the fairness, therefore, in requiring human decision to fast forward or skip the ad.

Advertisers will have to worry about the quality of their content (hear that, you scum sucking telephone company bastards!?), and they will need to worry about the quality of other ads played nearby in their time slot. If your funny beer ad comes after Crazy Joe's backyard 0% financing pickup truck extravanganza, then you are going to be a high speed blur on my TV set. Repetition will also become meaningless, as I will just zap through the five hundred thousanth iteration of your Windows training CD ad.

If you are an advertiser and this annoys you, remember this. Before TiVo I simply didn't watch TV. I am watching reruns of old shows now because I couldn't deal with ads in realtime. Persuading me not to push the fast-foward button is your only chance of selling me something. It's either that or the power switch.

Re:Thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

so let's tally up how well the advertisers are doing with you. you remembered commercials for:

used cars
beer
pickup trucks
Windows training CD

hmmm.... you might be a redneck. ;-)

Get used to it...

[freeze128]

Their new ad slogan will be "Costs More, Less Useful".

Then they should know my new slogan will be "Fewer Sales."

Yeah Right!

[NetNinja]

Wink Wink, Poke Poke.

Checks in the mail

Commercial advance vs. 30-second skip

[Anonymous Coward]

I own a Replay and a ProScan VCR with Commercial Advance. The Replay has a forward 30 seconds button and a back (about) 5 seconds button on the remote. The VCR would record a show and when you played it, it would make the screen blue while it automatically fast forwarded through the commercials.

Having used both, I found the CA would screw up often enough that I'm happier with the ff-30 button. It's not a big deal losing CA. Two or three button pushes ain't gonna kill me.

As for sending shows over the internet, I can see the argument that just letting you network all your home Replay's together is most of what people would want without the legal hassles. But then, given that they never actually remove commercials, I don't see the big deal sending them over the internet. I don't watch the commercials at home as it is, I don't see why it's any different if I get the show from a network or off the air.

Re:Commercial advance vs. 30-second skip

[tgibbs]

I don't watch the commercials at home as it is, I don't see why it's any different if I get the show from a network or off the air.

Seems that your cable company might think it was different (especially if you don't have cable, but get the shows you like from the network)

Re:Commercial advance vs. 30-second skip

[doublem]

But then, given that they never actually remove commercials, I don't see the big deal sending them over the internet. I don't watch the commercials at home as it is, I don't see why it's any different if I get the show from a network or off the air.

For cable, I can see them having an issue with people getting shows they didn't pay for.

For boradcast, I'm sure there's some exec with his head in hos colon insisting that people seeing the shows in different time zones damages what advertizers pay for the commercial slots to begin with.

a compromise for advertisers (Re:Thoughts)

[mechaZardoz]

If advertisers could embed content-related tags in commercials, one could envision a DVR option that allows one to establish rules for catching ads (eg, find all Mac- or BMW-related). While this doesn't make any allowance for serendipitous discover, it does, as the main post rightly suggests, put the onus more on the shoulders of the makers of the advertisements to produce compelling material. And then we can skip right to theirs. Or just view them all at the end ;)

How lame.

[someonehasmyname]

I'm already paying to watch the shows, and now they're mad because they're not going to make as much advertising money due to me skipping commercials?! I say "F them!" Times are changing, and in the business world, if your product isn't making you the money you'd like it to, you'll have to revise it. If I really wanted to tape something without commercials, I'd just hit the stop and record buttons. This just does it for me.

Re:Other PVRs.. myHTPC

[snooo53]

There actually is a fairly nice windows alternative called myHTPC. It's easy to customize, has channel listings, databases, weather, etc...

I chose it over MythTV to avoid a lot of the problems I had trying to do a linux version (finding drivers, configuring, getting it to work well on a slow system...) Plus you have the added bonus of being able to use windows games/emulators on it, and it's easier to use legacy-type hardware like the gamepad I have.

Cool. eBay bonanza!

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent. I already have a 4508, and I've got two lifetime 5040's on order. The resale values just doubled (remember what happened to prices when news of the hackable Apex AD-600A's hit USA Today?).

I'll use one of them 'til it dies, by then it'll be time for an HDTV PVR. I can live with that...

These are my scoms!

[Anonymous Coward]

My scoms like these as they are much the same.

I like Quickbooks! It wont let me do bitmaps though.

Hiles

TIVO Software

[slewfo0t]

Why would you want to pay for a monthly subscription to TIVO anyway when there a many FREE services that only require you to make a one time purchase... or no purchase at all...

Windows Based
Snapstream PVR
ShowShifter

Linux Based
Myth TV
Linux PVR Depot"

I have built my own PVR from scratch and the cost was comparable with a TIVO. Those packages offer many of the same features found in TIVO and ReplayTV... Plus, you can integrate them very easily into a home automation system or home network.

- Slew -

Re:TIVO Software

[Anonymous Coward]

You're the guy who picks all the meat out of the stew while we're at work!

I don't want someone sneaking up behind me with a pair of shears and giving me a surprise haircut! That wouldn't be as nice as hitting strangers with garbage cans!

Thapers'

Re:TIVO Software

[Anonymous Coward]

How much stew are we talking about?

my VCR does this

[Imperator]

I have an old VCR that, after it finishes a scheduled recording, goes back through and marks all the commercials. Then when you watch it will fast forward through them. Not quite as good as instantly skipping them or better yet not recording them at all, but much more convenient than DIY.

Of course these are only the default settings, and you can make it show you the commercials if you really want.

VCR Channel skip

[Yosemite Sue]

I was pleasantly surprised by a feature on the last VCR I bought ... it has the capability of editing out commercials. Thus, if you use that feature, it marks the commercial start/end after recording, and autoforwards commercials when you replay what you've taped. You don't see the commercial - just a blue screen. Zero exposure to advertising messages!

Of course, the marking part isn't foolproof ... every now and then an abrupt change of scene in a show seems to trick the VCR into thinking a commercial has started. Some shows are worse than others for this.

Anyhow, I'd be surprised if advertisers haven't made a fuss about this feature ...

YS.

Re:VCR Channel skip

[Babbster]

That's interesting. Personally, I'd rather see the commercials scanned through than a blue screen but I might be the only one. :)

That brings up, though, what I think might be the biggest reason that the studios went after SONICblue and ReplayTV where they don't go after certain VCR companies that might have similar commercial-avoidance features: There are so many VCRs available that the likelihood of someone buying a VCR with the fancy Commercial Advance feature is much smaller than buying a PVR with the same feature. Why? Because there are SO many VCR companies and models available while, up until very recently (with Panasonic and Toshiba entering the mix), there have been only two major DVR manufacturers (or licensors in the case of Tivo) so a prospective DVR/PVR customer would have had to buy one of those two products. If more companies jump on the HD-recording bandwagon with more variety in terms of features, it will make it that much harder for the studios to go after a particular feature/company...not to mention the fact that Tivo and ReplayTV are relatively small compared to the big consumer electronics manufacturers and thus are more appealing litigation targets.

Re:VCR Channel skip

[Zathrus]

That's CommercialAdvance, and it's been around on VCRs for nearly a decade now. And there's never been a significant complaint that I'm aware of.

Feature wanted - "Capture Commercials"

[SuperKendall]

One feature I think would be cool would be a "Capture Commercial" feature, where the box would monitor a channel and capture all commercials over a 24 hour period... so you could collect commercials you really liked. or, you could have it capture commercials with certain words in them (which it would recognize from the CC signal).

I'm actually interested in seeing commercials, just not during a show I'm watching. Let me watch them at my leisure. Perhaps a box could have commercial splitting that would let you skip all commercials for a recording, but then save them separately for the end so you could skip through ones you did not like like chapters on a DVD?

If you don't think there's a market for that, just look at how adcritic.com had to become a pay service.

Re:Feature wanted - "Capture Commercials"

[Loosewire]

i want that service now :-)

Re:Feature wanted - "Capture Commercials"

[Torqued]

It's not my fault that the delivery model for television advertising is lagging behind the technology. Why should I waste my time watching commercials that do not apply to me or that I have no interest in seeing? Now.. there are a few commercials that I will watch - even on the Tivo -- Commercials for TV shows that I am interested in, funny commercials, commercials for other sci-fi shows, commercials for motorcycle stuff, some commercials for home remodeling/etc.

I watch *more* television shows/programs in *less* time than I watched before.

By skipping commercials, I can watch 2 "1-hour" shows in 1.5 hours. Watching 10 "hours" of TV programming can be done in 7.5 hours with Tivo. I do a lot of things that interest me with an "extra" 2.5 hours of time! To me, my time is more valuable than whatever some advertiser is paying for their 30-second slot. People that waste my time piss me off!

If I want to go out to dinner, go to a movie, or go out of town, I don't have to worry about taping and/or missing any of the shows I *really* want to watch - this is especially handy on weekend nights.

Yes.. I skip commercials.. BUT, I would say that I have absolutely no interest in > 90% of the commercials being shown:

-I'm not looking to buy a new car
-I'm not looking to buy a new PC - "Dude! I'm NOT getting a Dell!
-I don't eat fast food
-I'm a guy and don't need make-up, feminine hygiene products, nor do I want to have an "organic experience" when washing my hair
-I am not looking to refinance a house
-I don't watch Oprah, Dr. Phil, or any of those other mindless talk shows.
-I don't care about commercials for other shows tha I have absolutely no interest in - I don't care what time they come on nor do I want to see whatever stupid teaser you're going to put in the commercial
-I'm 33 years old - I don't need senior citizen "supplemental insurance" and/or home delivery of drugs, etc. ...

Have I left anything out?

What I would like to see is more targeted advertising that gives me information that I really want to see. Have the commercials downloaded to the Tivo and insert them dynamically into the program at the commercial breaks. Set aside an "hour" worth of disk space and fill it with 120 30-second commercials that can be inserted dynamically into my shows. Maybe embed a signal in the broadcast that would indicate the start of the commercial break and how long it is to run.. Let me "rate" the commercials like I can "rate" programs on the Tivo - 1,2, or 3 thumbs-up or thumbs-down and give me 80% of the commercials that I have said I want to receive and 20% of commercials that you think I would want to receive based on the ratings of my tv programs and commericals.

Just like with the TV shows, give me something that I want to watch and I will watch it.

Re:Feature wanted - "Capture Commercials"

[sootman]

By skipping commercials, I can watch 2 "1-hour" shows in 1.5 hours. Watching 10 "hours" of TV programming can be done in 7.5 hours with Tivo. I do a lot of things that interest me with an "extra" 2.5 hours of time! ...
Yes.. I skip commercials.. BUT, I would say that I have absolutely no interest in > 90% of the commercials being shown: ...
-I'm not looking to buy a new car ...


I hear you, dude. I spend my extra 2.5 hrs/day deleting SPAM. Because, you see, I don't need herbal viagra, a low interest mortgage, a...

Media moguls, here's a clue.

[geekoid]

Make the commercial in such a way that the signal is indistinguishable from the show. Tricky? yes, but it can be done.

No auto skip, but manual skip still there

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares if the auto-skip is gone. You will still be able to one-button skip past commercials.

New 5080!

[clmensch]

I bought a 5080 this weekend because of the past article stating that the new ReplayTV hardware would not have the features that I've wanted since I bought my 3030 (most notably ethernet streaming for archiving via DVARchive). That being said, does anyone know of a way to block software updates from ReplayTV? Do they come from the same IP address as the program guides? If anyone's got an IP address (or range) please let me know! My 5080 works as well as I'd want it to right now...no need for them to remove my beloved networking!

They can have my TIVO series 1,

[Archfeld]

when they pry my gun from my cold dead hands...

If they come for me, you ALL will here about it :)

Re:They can have my TIVO series 1,

[IronChef]

why was this moderated as Funny? Oh, because we don't have a Grimly Serious category.

I'm there with you, brother... we Replay and Tivo users will be united in GLORIOUS BATTLE when the end times come.

You can't serve two masters

[Sloppy]

I think PVRs are a type of application that will outshine even Operating Systems, in showing just how superior Free Software can be, relative to proprietary software.

I still use my Tivo, but even before the day I bought it, I knew that Tivo's time was running out. Tivo tries to be a good product, but even from the beginning, it was explicitly clear that being the best it could be, was not quite the goal. They had "partners." They were at risk from incurring the wrath of advertisers and TV networks. So a balance had to be struck. I am glad that the balance was so far in my favor, and I have enjoyed my Tivo very much. But reminders of the compromise have always been present (don't get me started). And now it is clear that the situation with ReplayTV is no different.

Free Software is accountable to only one party: whoever uses it. Except for the finite supply of developer labor, there is no limit to how good it can be for the user. There is no party who will influence it toward being less good or force it to be less functional than what people want. There is no compromise, and there is no attempt to serve two masters.

If MythTV and Freevo don't already kick Tivo's and ReplayTV's asses yet, they inevitably will in the future. I don't know if the Tivos and Replays and Microsofts will still be around in this market a few years from now, but I do know that if they survive, it will be as crippled embarrassing parodies of the state of the art.

Re:You can't serve two masters

[NotoriousQ]

I agree with you fully. Having mythtv (mostly for just showing to people who care -- I do not watch tv) I can say that it is clearly superior having the files show up on your harddrive where they can be processed, organized, etc....Plus one can include extras....such as playing that library of simpsons downloaded off the net. I do not see a way how a company can do this without facing lawsuits. Free software on the other hand can, since it is harder to find people to sue, and there is no money involved.

The major problems with PC PVR are ease of installation/use....and hardware. The first one will be dealt with shortly. I expect to see LiveCDs being preconfigured to be plug and play with hardware autodetect and everything.

The second one is harder. MythTV uses a NuppelVideo codec, which seems to me to be a fairly uncompressed format, probably similar to MJPEG. It is nice and fast to encode, but eats space quickly. My 80Gb drive will not last for 10 hours of recording at full res. Trying to swithch encoders will result in frame loss quickly, even on fast machines. TiVo deals with this by having a hardware encoder. And to have MythTV working well, the PC has to have that as well.

The problem is there are not that many computers out there which have things as MPEG2 encoders and even TV tuners. And unfortunately, until Dell/whatever starts including them in their packages, people will not use MythTV. And Dell will not include these features until there is a demand.

The above reason is why only geeks will have PC PVR with many cool features for quite a while.

HD alternatives?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there any hi-def PC card tuners that work with free software to build an equivalent box with a better picture?

Can I get a subscriptionless DVR?

[gillrock]

I'd like to purchase a DVR, but I write enough checks and pay enough bills every month. I don't need another. Can I purchase a DVR that doesn't have the BS guide?

All I want is one that I can say "Every day record Channel 64 at 1pm" and be done with it.

Re:Can I get a subscriptionless DVR?

[dentar]

There is a neat brand of DVR from "Roll Your Own, Inc." that does exactly what you want!

Re:Can I get a subscriptionless DVR?

[UtSupra]

Yes. El Gato EyeTV is a DVR without a subscription plan... It needs a computer (I use it with my Mac). But that is actually an advantage since the show you record become more portable than a VHS tape. It can also record VCDs of the shows for archiving...

"Costs More, Less Useful"

[3ryon]

You forgot Step three.

Step Three, "Profit!"

Re:Other PVRs.. myHTPC

[Anonymous Coward]

Showshifter (www.showshifter.com).

Everyone always seems to miss Showshifter, and it's actually a very capable system (and one of the few Windows solutions worth paying $$ for).

Luckily....

[Anita Coney]

My homebuilt PVR continues to work great! I can skip commericals, view content on every computer in the house, and I don't have to pay a monthy fee.

Do chicks dig it?

[DerProfi]

I've got to ask one question...

Which of the following do chicks dig the most:
1. the honking big loud-ass PC case sitting by your TV
2. the mediocre output quality from the TV-out jack on your VGA card
3. the wireless keyboard and mouse that litter your coffee table
4. the way your PVR is filled with 173 hours of bootleg fansubbed anime and the occasional episode of Night Court or M*A*S*H ;-)

Re:Do chicks dig it?

[slewfo0t]

1. The honking big loud-ass PC case is actually a mini-atx with a silent power supply.
2. The mediocre Video output comes from my S-VIDEO jack which allows me 800x600 res on a TV (NTSC is 320X240)
3. I don't need a wireless keyboard and mouse... I have an IRMAN (www.evation.com) running girder remote control software.
4. I HATE anime and there are no bootlegs on my PVR... and 200GB is more than enough storage... plus the PVR makes a great MP3 Jukebox!
5. I am married and yes, she digs it.

- Slew -

Re:I SLASHED my LIBERAL neighbors TIRES!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, don't steal your trolls from Yahoo message boards. That's just lame.

Crippled PCs are a dead market, anyway

[sam_handelman]

Convergence, people, convergence. (Closes TV show that he has running in another window.)

All of these boxes are just crippled computers. With the prices on a real computer nosediving - and all signs indicating they will keep doing so - the only thing these devices have going for them is "mindshare" married to consumer apathy or ignorance.

Now, as I close my TV show, I notice that I'm running windows, which goes to show you can go a long way with an overpriced, underpowered product and some mindshare (though I got windows free from school). However, I don't think either of these devices is going to be able to successfully compete with the TV enabled home PC, ten or even five years in the future.

Question: Linux DVR on a laptop?

[riptalon]

It seems like one solution to having a highly functional Digital Video Recorder would would be to use a PC running Linux with a tuner card in it and use MythTV or Freevo. This database of people's setups suggests that there are quite a few people our there trying this. It certainly has the advantage that if you are lacking some feature you can just roll up your sleeves and code it rather than just moaning about the vendor not supplying it.

However there is some disconnect between the way most people want to use a computer and how they watch TV and in general you will want to have your computer and TV in two entirely separate rooms. While I would be interested in anyones solutions involving wireless etc., since I don't have a desktop handy anyway, only a laptop, another option presents itself. Plop the laptop down next to the TV connect it up and use it as a DVR and when you are finished and want a computer you can pick just pick it up, carry it next door and put it on a desk.

It looks like Sony amoung others are just bringing out DVR ready laptops but if you don't want to fork out for a new one is it possible to get an older laptop working as a DVR? I guess you would be restricted to USB TV tuners (are there any good ones?) such as the Pinnacle PCTV Deluxe. However there is the question of whether there are USB tuners for which linux drivers are available (obviously not from the vendor that would be too easy!) and how easy it would be to get one working with Freevo/MythTV. Just some thoughts in case there is someone out there who has already tried this?

Idol worship

[Anonymous Coward]

Your computer sitting idol waiting to record a show is not going to use 200 watts.
I've heard the term religion being used in reference to Linux, VI, emacs and such, but I didn't realize that people actually had computer sitting idols. How do you worship your computer sitting idol? Are virgins involved?

replaytv sux

[underworld]

i got a replaytv for christmas last year. it sucked. the picture quality was horrible, there was interference on several stations (including HBO), and the service was the worst. it was not a cabling problem either...

when you get the unit, you only have a few "free" days before you have to sign up for the service. during those days i could not get anyone from support to help. in fact, when calling support, they had so many calls that i couldn't even get into the queue to have my call answered!

i tried the phone options for a couple days. then i sent them an email to their support group. a week went by with no access to support and no response to my email.

so, it got returned and exchanged for a Sony Clie. about a month or so later, I received an email from replaytv customer support with some suggestions for fixes. A MONTH!

won't buy their products ever again.... and i think you shouldn't as well.

Truth about Advertising

[SkewlD00d]

The truth about advertising is that it doesn't work on the long term. They may convince some people by big, flashy ads to buy their product; but if their products aren't any good, people will stop buying them, usually, unless they're addictive: pr0n, drugs (alcohol), cigs, etc. Word of mouth advertising is truely a more powerful and cheaper means of informing people about your products. In fact, there can be a *negative* correlation w/ advertising and sales from consumer retaliation to over-funded, over-blown campaigns. Take "ditech.com" and the other predatory lenders that have every other commercial slot, I sure as $hit wont use them.

I'm not arguing for legislation with respect to commercial content distribution, but it seems that viewers are getting the short end of an increasingly smaller stick. For example, cable television was originally billed as the commercial-less alternative to free-to-air network TV. Well, look where that went? All there is left is HBO, Cinemax and a few others held by a small pool of mega media giants, with pay distribution channels numbering less than half-a-dozen.

If consumers had alternatives, it is likely they would take them, but the mega media giants are forcing a captive, anti-competitive market. In addition, fewer and fewer people are watching TV (dish, cable or air). Most everyone my age that I know (90%) do not watch any form of television. In addition, the upwardly mobile dont have time for such things. Video-on-demand and series-made-for DVD are going to be the only ways people will use their TV. Otherwise, their only choice is to go to the movies. (Don't get me started w/ product placement and commercials.)

The other issue is the pentration of advertising into basic, everday life. We have advertisements everywhere, even on the chalkboards in universities and in the games kids play. It shows that the advertising industry is way over-blown, over-spent and saturated to the point mfgrs may want to start cutting back. The only problem for us consumers, is that the unit cost of advertising is rapidly approaching 0 for all mediums except printed.

? Thought you could skip commercials with Tivo

[Phoenix666]

Sorry, but I thought you could already skip commercials with Tivo. If it's just fast forward, then what's the point? I can already record on that old VCR and fast forward through the commercials, which I do. What's the point of paying a monthly fee for the same functionality? I just don't get it.

Re:? Thought you could skip commercials with Tivo

[J.A. Lizzi]

It's not the same functionality.

1) As far FF goes, there are 3 speeds. And it will jump back a preset amount of time when you hit play, so it's less likely you'll have to rewind to the point you wanted to watch

2) Say you get home 5-10 mins late for your favorite program. No problem, because your VCR is recording it, right? Well, if you want to watch it, you either have to wait until it's done, or just accept your going to miss the beginning of the show until later. The Tivo lets you start from the beginning, even though it's *STILL RECORDING* the show.
What's interesting about this is that, in a half-hour show, you can actually start watching 5-10 minutes late and, thanks to FF'ing the commercials, catch up to it about the same time it would end anyway

3) Say your watching some special (documentary, news show, movie, etc) on TV. You suddenly decide it'd be useful to have around for later, maybe your friend would like it or something. Just hit "record", and Tivo will instantly start recording it - including the portion you've watched up to this point w/out switching channels. (As long as it doesn't exceed an hour.) With a VCR, you have to find a tape, put it in, hit record, and then you only get to store what's remaining of the program.

4) Most interruptions (phone calls, people knocking on the door, wife/GF/kid coming in to pester you, dog broke something in the kitchen) are no longer a problem. Hit "pause", and Tivo will continue to buffer up to an hour. (It continues after an hour, but then the front of the buffer starts clearing out.) If it's going to take longer, hit "record" (see point 3)

5) Your VCR can only record by channel and day/time. The Tivo can do that, but you can also tell it to record any instance of a certain program on all channels. And it will auto-adjust when schedules change.

6) You can watch older recorded stuff while the Tivo is busy recording new stuff, if you so wish. (Think 2 VCRs, one for recording and one for playing, hooked up to the TV with an input selector)

7) Wish lists. Instead of constantly checking the schedule for when, say, "The Tick" gets put back on whatever channel gets the rights, simply put "The Tick" into a Tivo wishlist, and select "auto record". If/when it ever comes back on again, the Tivo will grab it.

Re:? Thought you could skip commercials with Tivo

[Cro Magnon]

For one thing you CAN 30-second skip through commercials, though it's "undocumented". Also, comparing Tivo's FF speed to my VCR's is like comparing a track star to a garden snail. Lastly, Tivo has a whole slew of other features beyond what your VCR has.

The only correct answer.

[Scyber]

ReplayTV definate uses an algorithm that detects black frames.

That is why shows such as BUffy and 24 always used to cause CA problems. They had alot of dark frames. This would cause the replay to skip portions of the program if you left CA on.

The newer version of the software (5.0) greatly reduces these "false positives". But this software release is currently on hold due to some bugs that were encountered.

Ach, Kill your TV already!

[Phoenix666]

Honestly, what's out there that's really worth all this fuss? Or, extended to the rest of mass media, what's really out there that's worth all this hullabaloo? The number of movies worth watching that came out in the last 5 years can be counted on one hand. The number of new bands worth listening to come out in the same time is zero. The only TV worth watching was Babylon 5, and that's on DVD. Just put the remote down and walk away. Go code. Go build. Go play. Go vote. Go live your life instead of letting someone else do it vicariously for you. Sheez!

Re:Ach, Kill your TV already!

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

How about you don't tell me what to do with my life? People who don't watch TV always talk about how much "better" it is to not watch - but they don't know what TV is all about. TV is about letting someone else do the work. It's about sitting down, zoning out, and not thinking about anything but what's on the tube.

There are lots of good movies that I have seen lately. No, none of them were what I would call "masterpieces", but not everything needs to be.

Sometimes you don't want prime rib. Sometimes you just want a cheeseburger and fries. TV is that cheeseburger.

SLAPS HEAD UP AGAINST HARD SURFACE

[Sergeant Beavis]

Geez, I just bought a Replay TV last Sunday. At least they aren't planing to kill commercial advance on the 5040 box. Though I realize they might just do that.

The reason I chose Replay over TIVO is because I don't have a phone line. I don't want one since I do all my calls by cell phone. I know I can add ethernet to TIVO but I would have to buy the more expensive TIVO (after rebates), buy a USB NIC, and pay 99 bucks for TIVOs online service. It's a friggin rip either way.

In other words, I B Screwed.

Has it not occurred to you...

[Anonymous Coward]

That if DVRs continue to include commercial skipping software that cable prices would increase and the total number of ads would increase as well. Sucks to be poor.

Commercial Skip already floundering?

[UserChrisCanter4]

I've had my 5040 for about 6 months now. I positively love the thing, and we purchased over TiVO because of Network compatability (at the time, without purchasing add-on parts).

It seems that my commercial skip function has become less and less effective over time. Replay's fine print says that it's 90% effective, and I presume it's looking for a particular time sequence in blank space or something to that effect. I'm not sure if the networks have caught on to what the Replay is doing, but it seems that lately my commercial skipping is about 30% effective. Certain shows will always be able to skip commercials, while others (those that air on Cartoon Network, for example), are almost guaranteed to be unskippable. It doesn't bother me; a few clicks of the 30-second skip button work just as well, and I occasionally catch glimpses of commercials I want to see (and go back to them).

Also, check out DVArchive on sourceforge. Great multi-platform program that masquerades as another ReplayTV on the network. Grab one of those $300 w/ service included 5040s from Sonicblue, throw some extra drives (I've seen stuff going for $0.75/GB or lower) in a computer, and go to town with your several hundred hour Replay without even voiding a warranty.

Re:I will buy a Tivo (viewing habits reporting)

[telstar]

Honestly, I'm glad to share my viewing habits. All it means is that the more I watch what I like to watch ... the better chance of it not being taken off of the air. It's a tradeoff, but it's one I'm fine with.

Larger hard drives on Replay?

[Clarkosaurus]

I have (and love) a Replay 4000. As far as I've seen, the hard drive upgrades are only on Tivo's. If you know of instructions for Replay, please post the url.

Re:Larger hard drives on Replay?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this site. I've upgraded 4 replays using this software, it's very easy.

http://rtvpatch.sourceforge.net/index.html

Tivo skips comercials!

[Anonymous Coward]

you just enter the code with your remote to add the comercial skip feature.

Re:Tivo skips comercials!

[jimmi_jones]

There is a commercial skip feature in Tivo? One that reads the split second black screen before and after a commercial break and then skips everything in between? How do you enact it? My dad would love to have it. Also, I didn't read anything about the 30 second skip button being removed. Just the automatic commercial advance. And as far as "slick interfaces" go...yep, my tech-challenged 60 year old father can use his Tivo decently. But, I can do the same things with my Replay with a lot fewer movements(and fewer cutesy icons). The biggest difference to me is that I can go into my Replay's set-up and change from a cable box, to a satt. box or whatever without having to wait 8 hours for the channel guide information to show up. What is that? They also won't stop show sharing until they remove the network connectivity (yeah, right) or start encrypting the saved shows to keep people from pulling them off onto their compruters. The only thing that has been done here is to redirect the hounds to the end users that continue to trade shows.

Why the heck would they use linux?

[Snaller]

They'll stick with windows I think.

(No it's not a troll)

Re:Why the heck would they use linux?

[Anonym0us Cow Herd]

I'm not saying they would switch to Linux. I thought I made it clear they would stick with Windows. But if the first PVR-in-a-box came as a bootable Linux CD, then they would probably use it.

Of course, this would provide the necessary inspiration to the many Windows "innovators" out there to build a windows native program that does this.

Quality: How ironic...

[poptones]

How ironic you should complain about quality and tout "lossless" encoding when talking about direcTV. I HAD a direcTivo box - paid over 600 bucks for the whole setup as soon as it was available - and I had no reservations about letting it go. Cancelled the service, and stuck the hard drives in my old PC.

DirecTV has a shitty signal to begin with. There is no such thing as "lossless" because the signal is already overcompressed at the direcTV headquarters, before it even gets to the damn satellite. When I had it I often would "rip" the video to my PC through a capture card; given that comparisons with DVDs ripped this way (via my Panasonic A320) vs. VOB rips straight from the disc were nearly identical, worrying about "losses" when re-encoding the shit signal DTV sends out is absurd - it's like worrying about someone flooding the pool by peeing in it. I found I had to run the DirecTV caps through a very heavy filter chain to even get a picture I cared to preserve.

If you want quality, get a BOD for the yard and stick a few capture cards in a PC running MythTV. Or get a receiver with a SCSI port. Or say "fuck TV" and wait the six months until your favorite shows come out on DVD. If you want quality the last place you look is DirecTV; even the digital cable I've seen looked better.

backwards...

[poptones]

Friends doesn't cost so much to produce because the cast of friends make so much money - the cast of friends make so much money because the cast of friends is what makes the show, and because friends makes NBC 1000 times that - not just in weekly ads, but in syndication rights, ancilliary rights, derivative rights...

If NBC told Matt LeBlanc they weren't going to pay him what he wants I'm quite sure he'd take a walk and leave NBC to figure out how to sweep up his dust. After all, central, popular stars have left shows before, and it sure didn't hurt Three's Company or Roseanne or even Bonanza... oh, wait.

What I find missing from all these discussions is any mention at all of the fact we aren't talking about a loss of money here. It's not that these people are losing money - it's just that they can't figure out how to use this technology to make even more money!

Any popular TV show can now be downloaded within hours of its original broadcast - it's not as if no one is going to tune in to watch "Buffy" because they would rather spend an hour (or a day) downloading it from the net. Look at Survivor; like it or not, the show is incredibly popular. And it's not terribly cheap to produce despite the fact they have only a single "star" to pay. But it makes assloads of money because it's timely - no one wants to tune in tomorrow to see what everyone else sees tonight. Networks will simply have to learn to do what TV was meant to do from the start - provide compelling, timely broadcasts to grab the eyeballs. Instead of running fifteen nonstop minutes of ads (anyone tried to watch The Late Show with David Letterman lately?) they'll have to figure out how to incorporate sponsorships into the show itself. Because I'll tell ya: I don't even have a Tivo anymore (yeah, I gave it up) but - tivo or not - there's no fucking way I'm going to sit through all those ads no matter how much I like Letterman. It doesn't take a Tivo to change the channel.

Creating value.

[rice_burners_suck]

"Costs more, less useful?" It will succeed for the very same reason I'm about to explain.

Just remember this simple marketing rule. It especially applies in Los Angeles, where my uncle lives, and where most of the population consists of "stupid people." I'll give the example first and then explain the marketing behind it:

I was there (in L.A.) with some friends a few months ago, and one of them insisted on going to the "clubs" on Sunset Blvd., where a parking space costs twenty dollars. Mind you, they park the cars so close to each other, to save space, that the door barely opens. Then, you go in the bar, and drinks cost nearly 10 dollars each. Something possessed my friend to buy everyone a round of beer, and when he met a two girls (who were pretty... pretty ugly, that is), he bought shots for everyone. This totals 8 drinks, right? He got a bill for over a hundred dollars. The place was crowded. The service was crappy. Security guards yelled at everybody and treated everybody like garbage. Everything was expensive as hell... And yet, everybody and his uncle was there, happily spending their money. Why?

This is a simple rule of marketing that I call, "The Rule of Value." It goes like this: In a market full of "stupid people" (exactly like nearly all of the population of L.A.), a product that costs too much and gives little benefit creates value. The more it costs, and the less benefit it gives, the more value it creates. In order for this rule to work, the benefit of the product must be inversely proportional to the price, where the price is greater than the benefit. The price must outweigh the benefit by a large margin. This creates a situation in which the consumer feels that they are investing in a product that creates value because it costs a lot and is shit, yet everybody else is doing it.

In other words, if the product produces a lot of benefit and costs a little, it won't succeed, because it doesn't create value. If the product costs about the same as its benefit, or even twice as much as its benefit, it won't succeed, because it doesn't create value. But if the product is extremely expensive and is truly shitty, then it will be extraordinarily successful.

This is, of course, an oversimplification. There are other variables. For example, time utility: If you have to wait in a long line and pay too much for a worthless product, the product will be even more successful. Customer satisfaction is another variable: If the business treats you like a piece of shit, so shitty that even a piece of dogshit deserves infinitely more respect than you, the business will be even more successful. And if finding a parking space is nearly impossible, and if you have to pay for parking in order to go into the business and spend your money, and if the conditions related to this parking mess are extra shitty, then the business will be even more successful.

That is why those bars on Sunset are so successful! You have to pay outrageous prices for parking; parking attendants are assholes; and parking conditions are shitty as they park your car in some alley full of nails, where gangsters are likely to break into your car. They charge exhorbitant amounts of money for a "drink." (Like a "drink" is so damn complicated to make that it should cost 10 dollars. Or like the materials in the drink actually cost the bar more than 10 cents. As if you can't get the same drink for 2 dollars at a bar in a nearby city.) The lines are long and people are elbowing each other, getting each other's all important "drinks" spilled. Bar employees, especially security, treat you like you're the garbage of the earth.

This is why so many people in L.A. drive all kinds of stupid SUVs and do it in an unsafe manner because they are not qualified to drive those cars. This is why many people in L.A. have to eat at expensive restaurants where the food is just as crappy as in the cheap restaurants. This is why people in L.A. rent houses that cost incredible sums of money, in order to be in

Re:Creating value.

[NightEyez]

Baaa baaa baaaaa.... Thats the sound of the sheep in LA. I feel the same way when I see people wearing Nike ballcaps and Budweiser tshirts. Unless your Tiger Woods and getting paid large sums of money for doing it why would anyone advertise for free? Hello? BECAUSE IT'S TRENDY. I'm still waiting for a shirt that says "Ford Motor Co. thinks I'm a piece of shit and nothing but free advertisement... but I'm trendy!!"

Not automatic, but...

[Zog The Undeniable]

My Philips DVD+RW recorder lets you mark the beginning and end of the advert break as a chapter, then make the chapter invisible. I'm currently working my way through Star Wars, which was shown on a commercial channel in the UK on Saturday.

Obviously I'm driven to such measures because George Lucas won't release it on "proper" DVD until 2006, when he's finished splicing Jar Jar Binks into it etc etc.

Don't care

[Syberghost]

All these boxes are going to be obsolete in two years anyway.

First one to market that can record HDTV gets my business, whether they have commercial skip or not.

DISH satellite system PVRs still have 30 sec skip

[LandGator]

Echostar's DISH TV satellite systems have several PVRs, sold by them for US use and by Bell ExpresVue for Canadian use. Both have the 30-sec skip feature by just pressing the UP button on the remote.

Oh, and the DISH PVRs don't have the ability to 'phone home' with viewing data, as they run just fine when unplugged from a phone line.

Re:Skipping Commercials.... Stealing? But...

[Zygo]

No, going to the fridge must be allowed, otherwise you're missing about half of the components of the raw material that commercials are made of.

Bad mods! Bad!

[fendel]

How is this "Informative"??

This is standard-issue "kill your TV" stuff, with a special exception made for Babylon 5. (Evidently this is the "TV sucks except for MY favorite show" variant.) Not informative. Not insightful. Just smug and self-righteous.