ReplayTV and TiVo Compared

j0atz writes "The New York Times is running a story today that, while it's a bit redundant in the beginning and a bit short on technical details later, gives a rundown the newest features for ReplayTV (numbered 4000 or above) and TiVO (Series2); basically, you can program your favorite DVR to record a show from a remote computer or from another (same-brand) DVR. Along with that, you can stream MP3's and pictures with TiVo now. Still...I'd much rather use something like FreeVo or MythTV and actually burn my shows to cd, stream whatever I want, etc, etc."

Comments

Tivo can burn too

[shokk]

From what I understand, you can hack your Tivo series 1 to enable video extraction which you can then burn to DVD. That isn't much more of a hack than a FreeVo, and I expect that the schedule handling of the TiVo is much more advanced than what you will get out of the free systems, albeit much pricier.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[Anonymous Coward]

TyStudio does that.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[AnswerIs42]

You "can" do it with a series 1 tivo as well. There is an option to "Archive" a show, mainly meaning to VHS tape. But I have had it go into my video capture card and store it that way on my computer for later burning.

Not the best method, but it works.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[crow]

Right, but you're seriously degrading the quality doing it that way. You get an extra round of compression artifacts, not to mention noise from the digital-analog-digital conversion.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[drwtsn32]

I've extracted/re-encoded several times without any appreciable degredation in quality. Just record your shows at high/best quality and you shouldn't have a problem.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[drwtsn32]

My bad.. I didn't see that he was re-encoding the video by capturing it using his video card. (That post was hidden because it was below my threshold.)

My experience is with direct extraction over ethernet.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[Anonymous Coward]

Having done this hack on three tivos, it took all of one good day of effort. Well worth the time.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[akb]

To do this on a Tivo you have to remove the hard drive and put it in a PC, futz with it and put it back in. If you have a series 2 Tivo you can setup the net connection to download the movies over the network but its not a friendly process. To download shows from a series 1 you have to add an gray market network card.

With ReplayTV you can just use DV Archive to download shows from it. Friendly interface, no warranty voiding required.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not degrading the quality if you have a directivo (DirecTV receiver with TiVo built in). You get a perfect digital copy (with DTS audio if show had it) to backup and enjoy.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[Evanrude]

Using the TyStudio you can install a daemon on your TiVo and a client on your workstation which makes video extraction and editing from your TiVo incredibly easy. It's best to use the client 0.5.0 Beta 3, as it has a few bug fixes, but you'll have to build it from CVS.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[HTH NE1]

You are degrading the quality of the video if you're capturing it through the analog outputs, even if it is a DirecTiVo. There is no loss[*] between what the dish receives and what you burn if you're doing digital extraction using TyStudio, but there is if it's converting it to an S-Video signal and you're digitizing it with a capture card (and then there's the matter of getting an audio capture card that can capture the digital audio output).

[*] That is, no further loss beyond the digitization process that DirecTV puts on the signal themselves. Your digitally extracted copy just has no further loss beyond that already present in the transmitted signal. You want less loss? Get a BUD (Big Ugly Dish), point it at the uplink feeds for the various networks, and figure out how to extract the signal it receives digitally.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[Anonymous Coward]

To download shows from a series 1 you have to add an gray market network card.

TiVo comes with official drivers installed for this network card, so it's a little better than gray market.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[LinuxHam]

gray market network card

can't be too gray market if TiVO deploys software to all units to natively support them..

Re:Tivo can burn too

[Anonymous Coward]

That's right the Turbonet card from 9thtee.com is no grey market card. It was developed by a TiVo enthusiast. While Tivo does not 'Officialy' support this card, the Do provide the drivers in their newest software! This card has allowed many people to develop many, many hacks.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[shokk]

This is what I like about TiVo. They are in the business of making rabid fans because they know that by making us their evagelists they can only win. I've never heard anyone rave about a Replay. TiVo fans can count on TiVo knowing them and keeping them happy.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[akb]

Well, I own neither a Tivo nor a ReplayTV (nor a TV for that matter) but having to void your warranty in order to do any of the Tivo hacks doesn't seem to be that supportive of the user community. Especially when compared to ReplayTV where you just have to download a piece of software and you can interoperate perfectly with the machine.

My impression is that Tivo captured mindshare and fandom through the first mover advantage. People say "Tivo" as the word for "PVR" because they penetrated the media first.

Re:Tivo can burn too

[LinuxHam]

having to void your warranty in order to do any of the Tivo hacks doesn't seem to be that supportive

I will give you that. Best bet is to buy a dead 20 hour standalone off Ebay cheap and put a new 120gb drive in it. Once you activate it you can stop right there. If you can make a floppy with rawrite and hook up an ide drive to a ribbon, you can revive a TiVo (and put it on your LAN with the NIC)

yet another reason...

[Anonymous Coward]

..to stay indoors...

What about the PSX!

[rkz]

They aint the only two you know :P Over here in the UK Sky makes a PVR called sky+ I'd hazard a guess that its probably better than TIVO and ReplayTV, but the PSX takes the crown with its DVD-+R

Re:What about the PSX!

[Zathrus]

It's not available!

And you'd hazard wrong on that Sky+ box. It's noticably inferior to both TiVo and Replay.

You also forgot the various cable box PVRs that are appearing, Microsoft's UltimateTV, Dish Network's Dishplayer (which is the most widely used PVR), and quite a few others that are actually available. Oh, and there's Toshiba's upcoming (ie - not available) PVR with a rewriteable DVD drive that uses TiVo software.

Thing is, TiVo is better software-wise than any of them. Replay has had ethernet longer, allows more broad show sharing, but it doesn't have the functionality or stability TiVo does. UltimateTV is third, Dishplayer a distant fourth, and the rest are barely capable of functioning.

They may not be the only two, but they're the only two you should bother considering.

Re:What about the PSX!

[The Lynxpro]

Sky + is licensed TiVo under the Sky brand...

Re:What about the PSX!

[The Real Chrisjc]

Have you ever used a TiVo? I mean, I live in the UK and have both a TiVo and Sky+ box. TiVo's were sold over here, but TiVo marketed it badly and they picked Sky as their partner in the UK (baaad idea!). Sky+ isn't as good as TiVo in many ways, such as the scheduling. With the TiVo, you record things by picking the program name (or lots of other ways I wont go in to), whereas with Sky+ you have to pick by time, or use their very broad 1 day A-Z listings (which are pretty crap). Season passes on Sky+ suck, with no real help with priorities and soforth. The only good things about Sky+ is the fact that you can record something, and watch something else (live) at the same time, the digital sound output, and the fact it records the direct digital stream, and doesn't reencode. The only reason Sky+ can, and TiVo can't, is because Sky is a closed system, they you can't buy CAM's for! If sky were to open their system, it would allow the devolopment of something like DirectTivo for the UK, and mean I don't have to be ripped off by murdoch so much! Don't get me started on Sony and Playstations. . .

Re:What about the PSX!

[class_A]

Mod parent down, they're incorrect. We've been here before...

Re:What about the PSX!

[malfunct]

The Sky+ is doing pretty much the same thing as the dual tuner DirectTIVO boxes. The reason they can do this is not because of what you said but instead because they don't have to have an mpeg encoder because the satellite streams mpeg2 natively. The money/realestate they saved on that encoder was used to put in a 2nd tuner pipeline. You are allowed to watch the stream through either tuner and switch back and forth between them. DirecTIVO also caches both streams so you can rewind one show watch it a while, jump to the other show rewind it and watch a while. Its really quite nice but not unique to the Sky+ machine.

Re:What about the PSX!

[The Real Chrisjc]

Sorry, I meant its unique for the UK, I mean a crowded market with TiVo and some other random very simple PVRs. If Sky just opened their system and something like the DirectTiVo was released for Sky+. Sky+ would have a real competitor on their hands!

In other words...

[GreenJeepMan]

"while it's a bit redundant in the beginning and a bit short on technical details later"

This article sucks, but hum... here it is anyway.

Re:In other words...

[Anonymous Coward]

This article sucks, but hum... here it is anyway.

Par for the course here at slashdot, really.

DirecTivo does not have these features!

[sublimespot]

Hughes HDVR2 DirecTivo does not support the new features and it is "claimed" to be a series 2.

Re:DirecTivo does not have these features!

[ncc74656]

Hughes HDVR2 DirecTivo does not support the new features and it is "claimed" to be a series 2.

My understanding of the matter is that you should blame DirecTV for that...they didn't want to implement HMO on their system.

Re:DirecTivo does not have these features!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want this, be sure to sign the here

Make your voice heard about this issue.

imagine that

[Anonymous Coward]

The New York Times runs an article that's "a bit redundnat in the beginning and a bit short on technical details"? Well, at least they didn't plagiarize, or declare it a quagmire after 2 weeks, so they're improving.

Re:imagine that

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with Quagmire?

Next to Cleveland, he's Peters coolest neighbor! (Well... Joe's pretty cool also)

Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[coupland]

Was speaking with a friend recently and he had heard through the grapevine that the compression done on Tivo video renders very poor quality output, well below that of standard cable TV. I've been thinking of jumping on the PVR bandwagon for a while now but this worries me a lot. Can anyone who has a PVR comment on video quality? How does it compare to things like DivX, VCD, cable TV, satellite etc? I don't want to plug a DVR into my expensive TV and end up with something that makes live cable look awful. Thanks in advance for your insights.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[computerme]

your friend is wrong. go to a best buy and see for yourself. Tivo is the greatest device for your tv since the VCR.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Anonymous Coward]

At the high or best settings, you'd be hard pressed to pick out a digital cable signal from a tivo recorded digital cable signal.

At the basic quality setting, you'd have no problem whatsoever.

However, if your input signal is poor, tivo will have a harder time compressing it (as it tries to store all the noise), and compression artifacts might become obvious at High.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Anonymous Coward]

I export video from my ReplayTV 4500 to a PC, which then gets burned to DVD. Even after all the transitions, when the disk goes back in the DVD player the picture quality can't be distinguished from live TV.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[BgJonson79]

It depends on the quality of the incoming cable signal. You know, garbage in, garbage out. On my TV I notice a difference, but it beats the hell out of a VCR for quality and the season pass makes me randy.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Qube]

You choose the picture quality (a default which you can override for specific shows/SPs) but higher quality uses more disk space.

Basic looks pretty horrible, and it does the usual blocky MPEG artefacts when something moves quickly but it's better than VHS at least.

Medium is quite watchable, and OK for fairly static programmes (gameshows and the like)

High is what I use for day-to-day and is very good - I have (UK) Sky Digital as the source and it's as good to my eyes.

Best uses even more disk space, but will be as good as what you throw at it. It's what the live buffer uses and is recommended for sports and other fast-moving stuff.

It's pretty straightforward to upgrade a TiVo to use a (cheap now) 120Gb disk and you can store a lot at High or Best with that.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[zsmooth]

Your friend heard incorrectly. TiVo has 4 levels of compression available: Basic, Medium, High, and Best.

Best: Virtually indistinguishable from the original broadcast. This is a good level for sports or movies with a lot of action scenes.

High: I record everything (except sports) in high. For most shows, it's also very very close to original broadcast quality. On my 120GB TiVo I get about 40 hours recorded at High quality.

Medium: Obviously a small step down from High. Dark scenes start getting hard to see, there are artifacts, etc. I never record at medium.

Basic: I think this one sucks pretty bad and never record anything with it. However, I would get like 130+ hours of recording time on my 120GB TiVo if I used it all the time. Some people are satisfied with it, but I suspect those people have smaller TV sets.

We have a 60" TV, so it's big enough for the quality to be important, and with High and Best, TiVo's quality is awesome. Definitely better than VCD, and better than most DivX encodings I've seen (although I understand you can encode DivX at real high rates too).

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Dirk Pitt]

I second the other poster and say to go check for yourself -- our local electronics store has a couple of gas plasma displays hooked up to Tivo and Replay, so you should be able to find something similar and get a pretty good demo.

My experience, with Replay, has been very good. There are 3 quality levels, the highest of which is, IMHO, fairly indiscernable from straight cable on my Samsung hdtv (CRT, not projection, so the quality is quite good). Occasionally I'll see a compression artifact at the highest quality, but for the most part the benefits *far* outway the small loss.

And the most lossy quality setting is good for recording the nightly Simpsons reruns ;-).

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[damiangerous]

Your friend is very wrong. With the TiVo "Live TV", which is also the Best Quality recording option is indistinguishable from digital cable over RCA jacks. If you have a higher quality setup you'll probably notice a difference. You can also choose from four recording levels (Live TV is always "Best" and there's also High, Medium and Low), and as you go down quality does suffer (video only, audio is always the same bitrate). I record most things on Medium Quality from digital cable and watch on a 27" TV. I definitely notice the difference, but it's entirely watchable for your typical dramas/comedies. Things like sports, high action and live concerts generally benefit most from the higher quality though. If you use coax (RF) as your input source, quality will suffer, so don't do that. And on the flip side if you have DirecTV and a DirecTiVo the TiVo will simply record the MPEG stream from the sat with no recompression whatsoever.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Talsin]

I cannot speak about the stand alone units but the DirecTV Tivos record the stream exactly as it is sent. I have a 50" toshiba widescreen HDTV monitor and the DirecTV single is quite acceptable on it. You will notice some jagged edges and pixelization where colors change rapidly but I believe that this is mostly as a result of stretching the SDTV single to fit the full screen. The Toshiba has several modes to do this and most look quite good when viewing from the Tivo.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[TroubleMagnet]

If you go with the DirecTivo units you get NO loss at all since stores the incoming digital signal to the HD directly. You get about 1 hour/GB and it is as good as it is coming off the sat.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[BenSnyder]

I had to upgrade my TV after my 27" TV that got me through college died in the middle of a game of Super Mario Sunshine 6-8 months back. I ended up with a 34" 16:9 HDTV ready Sony that supports 1080i. DVDs and games look amazing on the screen. However, the picture from our cable provider (Comcast) is horrible. There is HEAVY artifacting visible that the old 27" just blurred together. (An interesting aside: it seems as though the commericals are less compressed than the actual shows. There's a visible picture quality difference between shows and commericals.)

Then I added a TiVo back in February. I think it does some pretty wonky compression things. I'm a little disappointed that nobody told me that there's a quality difference between the original broadcast and replay. But, by the same token, I'm not amassing a library of any shows and I've already been forced to put up with Comcast's bad compression.

For me, the loss in picture quality is worth the added functionality the TiVo gave me. Are there things I'd change about TiVo? You bet. But am I losing sleep over it? Not in the slightest. Although I do have to say that Myth TV looks very promising.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[TopShelf]

Thanks for the info - do you know how the disk usage compares between High and Best quality? I'm considering getting a Tivo, and disk space will obviously be a big consideration...

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[zsmooth]

I don't really, since I rarely use anything other than High. I think I can get 35-40 hours at high with the 120GB hard drive I put in, so I imagine Best will probably get about 25-30 or so. A search at tivocommunity should give you a more definitive answer, but the search is turned off right now (probably because of load trouble they've had lately).

My recommendation is to get the 40 hour unit and then upgrade it with a 120GB drive. The upgrade is extremely well documented and if you've tinkered with the inside of a computer much at all you should be able to handle it.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is also why Direct Tivos don't have multiple quality settings and are cheaper than stand-alone Tivos - no need for MPEG2 hardware in the box.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[gordgekko]

Basic looks pretty horrible, and it does the usual blocky MPEG artefacts when something moves quickly but it's better than VHS at least.

Really? You must have the cheapest VCR on the planet if you get pictures from it that feature artifacting. What are the heads on your VCR made out of, crayon?

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Anonymous Coward]

I would defintely suggest looking for yourself. The service is great, the picture is great, the interface is great. Just make SURE to hook it up to a surge protector (especially the phone line!) Trust me on this one, a Tivo with a zapped modem is no fun =(

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[quecojones]

If you're really worried about video quality, I'd recommend a DirecTiVo. I love mine.

Aside from being able to record two shows on different channels at the same time (even while you watch another previously recorded show), they simply copy the already encoded (MPEG-2?) video from the satelite signal. It doesn't encode for storage->decode for viewing like the stand-alone units.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[LordNimon]

I have a 120GB drive and I get about 37 hours with everything recorded at best.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[zsmooth]

Oh yeah? I must have underestimated then. All I know is that there's always plenty of stuff waiting on the TiVo to watch when I get bored. :)

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[swb]

Basic: I think this one sucks pretty bad and never record anything with it. However, I would get like 130+ hours of recording time on my 120GB TiVo if I used it all the time. Some people are satisfied with it, but I suspect those people have smaller TV sets.

I have a 27" Sony Trinitron and my Tivo hooked up via S-Video and for the most part I'm really quite satisfied with Basic Quality.

I have noticed that BQ really varies with the source, though. Stuff that's really high quality to begin with (digital channel content like HBO) seems really good on Basic. Things off of analog channels fare less well, especially if its a "noisy" analog channel. It also seems that filmed content, even OLD filmed content like Rockford Files, fares better than videotaped content for some reason.

When we finally get that big TV I may change my opinion, but for now I'm more satisfied with greater storage and retention (which means more variety) at the price of a few artifacts than I am with having a ton of quality and less storage.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[panaceaa]

Medium is quite watchable, and OK for fairly static programmes (gameshows and the like)

Who records gameshows?

Like my whole day's going to be ruined if I don't watch Wheel of Fortune for the 6323th time?

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[ivan256]

I've had a TiVo for four years now, and two years ago I switched from cable to DirecTV (I moved out of digital cable range and was tired of paying >$50/month). Using the S-Video connector on the DirectTV reciever and encoding with the "medium" setting looks as good as straight analog cable did, and with the digital cable system I had, the local networks were all still analog anyway.

Overall, I'd have to say that even with lossy compression, using the TiVo as a filter results in higher quality output on the screen, even if the video quality is slightly degraded. FOr me it's the difference between enjoying a few good shows every evening and not being able to stand to watch...

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[bastion_xx]

Hmmm, I'd use it during Final Jepordy!

Actually, I was recently on travel and found out just how much I miss even the basic PVR features, let alone the ability to record shows.
It's not uncommon for PVR users to pause, rewind, and most importantly, skip the commercials. Many times while watching TV in the hotel room I found myself looking for the Tivo remote. Sigh.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[pHDNgell]

Basic: I think this one sucks pretty bad and never record anything with it. However, I would get like 130+ hours of recording time on my 120GB TiVo if I used it all the time. Some people are satisfied with it, but I suspect those people have smaller TV sets.

I use basic almost all the time. I'm usually staring at my computer screen while the TV is on. I choose quantity over quality.

Some things (i.e. the opening of Futurama) suck at basic...but for the most part, I'm just used to it and don't care.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[tgibbs]

The biggest challenge for a compression scheme is a scene in the rain. I record most things in the next-to-highest TiVo quality (the highest is overkill for most shows) but it will choke badly in the rain.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[stripes]

Who records gameshows?

Most people who have a TiVo record everything they watch, or really watch only stuff they have recorded, so they have the TiVo set up to record everything they might want to watch.

I tend not to watch things I record on the TiVo more then once (after all it tends to pick up all sorts of new stuff I want to watch more then stuff I have just seen), in fact there are things it records that I just don't get around to watching (sure the Simpsons are great, and when I'm in the mood to watch them it is nice to have some on the TiVo, but if I don't get around to seeing it before it is a week ot two old and vanishes, it's no great loss, ditto for Good Eats, and a bunch of stuff on the History channel, and...).

So the real question is "who watches game shows"? (and the answer is "not me")

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Anonymous Coward]

Get the DirecTV Tivo service. It uses the DirecTV stream without additional encoding. So the quality beats digital cable even in playback.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Anonymous Coward]

really? you must not know what you are talking about.

the chroma signal from VHS is total crap. even blocky mpeg artifacts from time to time is better than continuously trashed color signal.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[rtechie]

It is my understanding that the "High" quality setting on my ReplayTV 3000-series unit is exactly identical to DVD video (MPEG2 at same settings), though using this setting will cut your capacity down to 1/3 of listed (so if you normally get 60 hours now you only get 20). I'm assuming that it's the same on later units.

I've noticed that the compression (from compressing analog signals, including high quality Laserdisc) at "Medium" is about the same as what I see on AT&T Broadband Digital Cable and DISH Network, perhaps slightly better than DISH.

The "Low" setting is basically equivalent to VCD (though MPEG2 instead of MPEG1).

As for how it compares to high-quality analong sources (like Laserdisc, or a really clean analog cable feed), I'd say that it's roughly equivalent on the "High" setting. But you also have compression artifacts on PVRs that you don't have with Laserdisc, so it's a tough call.

The simple reality is thae because the signal is being compressed, the quality will ALWAYS be worse than a "clean" signal, so your recorded programs will never look as good as they do straight.

It's my understanding that the DirecTIVO units (and the DISHPlayer and UltimateTV) simply do not have a MPEG encoder, they directly record the already-encoded sattelite signal to HD. They don't have multiple choices for quality because there is no encoding. Presumably then, their video quality is exactly identical to a regual DirectTV/DISH reciever.

It's also worth noting that only ReplayTV 4000-series and 5000-series units support HDTV in any form.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[Qube]

It's a different kind of crap quality :) VHS may not have the artefacting, but it's other problems are worse. Even more so if you have a few "short term" videos which you record on over and over.

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[panaceaa]

Yeah it seems to me that people only watch game shows when nothing else is on. If I had a TiVo, I'd never watch game shows again!

Re:Question about Tivo / PVR quality

[stripes]

Yeah it seems to me that people only watch game shows when nothing else is on.

I'm not so sure, Millionare and the Weakest Link both did pretty good in primetime where the most good stuff seems to be on (i.e. the times I'm most likely to run out of tuners!)

So some people like gameshows a fair bit.

If I had a TiVo, I'd never watch game shows again!

So go buy one already! Seriously I have very few consumer eletronics purchases that worked out far better then I thought they would, and the TiVo is the biggest of those (Vonage coming in second, my Mac laptop the third, and the iPod a distant distant 4th).

Let me Guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Still...I'd much rather use something like FreeVo or MythTV and actually burn my shows to cd, stream whatever I want, etc, etc.

I guess you never actually TRIED to use any of these apps, have you?

Features are one thing, but when talking about an appliance, it's all in the UI. And nothing free out there yet remotely compares to TiVI's UI.

Re:Let me Guess...

[Tovaris]

It is my understanding that Snap Stream Media http://www.snapstream.com will be releasing version 3 today. I have not personally used it but have read some very positive reviews.

Re:Let me Guess...

[rohdem]

I have digital cable and it does take about 3-5 seconds to change the channel, which would be a bit slow if I were surfing through the channels one at a time, but with the guide button (TIVO's guide layout is the best I have ever seen), I just look though the guide, find what I want, and switch to it. One channel change and I'm done. As far as TIVO not letting you go to certain channels, this is not a problem because the digital cable box is still controling the signal, and TIVO is just changing the channel using the IR blaster.

Re:Let me Guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

mod parent up.

This sort of comment just signifies how little experience the author has with DVR's.

The free options are terrible comparied to the out-of-the-box experience of either Tivo or Replay.

I guess it depends on your goals... but MOST people's goals are to help them SAVE time and let them watch TV more efficiently. If your primary goal is to archive as many shows as you can... sure the 3rd party apps may be better if your time is no consideration.

It's akin to criticising a review of Point and Shoot cameras and saying... "well, I'd prefer to buy the chemicals and develop the film myself - more flexibilitiy"

Sure... more flexibility... if you want your life to revolve around it. I personally don't. I want it to work. period.

Re:Let me Guess...

[Eight 01]

You know that you can ignore the thumbs up/down if you want? They aren't used at all except for the added feature of letting Tivo guess what shows you may like.

Channel changing does take about 3-4 seconds, but this is expected with an IR-Blaster interface.

It sounds like your neighbor gave you a very bad demo.

Re:Let me Guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be very skeptical of Snapstream. I bought version 2 about a year ago when Version 3 was supposed to be out "any day now". Version 2 never worked right. I was adviced to sign up for the beta program of Version 3. I tried a beta, which was presumably supposed to be ready for real-world testing (otherwise it wouldn't be a beta, right?).

Crutial features like being able to change channels weren't even implemented. The installer had to be edited by hand and left conflicting debris on the hard-drive.

I uninstalled it and gave up. I know it was beta, but it was honestly pre-alpha. It should never have been released to testers in that condition.

I may try the release version of 3, but probably not. I've since aquired a Tivo and I can't get motivated to deal with the headache of SnapStream any time soon.

Re:Let me Guess...

[artur9]

On a replaytv you can watch a show while "flipping" through the channels. You hit the up-arrow (or whatever) and the little dialog box shows you what's on the next channel. You can actually step through the whole guide this way. It's better than losing your buffering. Do Tivos do that? I don't mean that as a challenge, just curious...

Re:Let me Guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Channel changing does take about 3-4 seconds, but this is expected with an IR-Blaster interface.

Thats "expected"? Who the hell expects that? My TV's remote is IR also, and it doesnt take 3-4 seconds. Moron.

Re:Let me Guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the major reasons for owning a tivo is that you don't waste your time idly flipping through channels. The tivo guide is much faster, because you can just look through the program listings and find something to watch that way (and in my case it's much more accurate and detailed than the channel guide that comes with my cable).

Actually, I hardly ever watch live TV any more. I have some season passes and I use the program guide to find movies to record a week or more in advance (including listings of alternate times when they're on if they conflict with another scheduled recording). When I sit down in front of the TV, I usually have lots of stuff waiting for me, and I don't have to waste my time flipping channels or sitting through commercials.

I don't know what your talking about with your thumbs up/down comment, and I'm not even sure that you understand what they do. Their only purpose is to provide input to the tivo suggestions about what shows you like and dislike. If you disable tivo suggestions you can just ignore them (you can ignore them even if you leave the tivo suggestions enabled, but it won't work as well).

A tivo is not a VCR with a disk drive. If you think a VCR is anywhere as useful you just don't understand how tivos work.

A tivo will let you go to any channel that you can receive. If it doesn't, it's because the owner hasn't set up his tivo correctly.

The 30 seconds comment is a ridiculous exaggeration. It does take 2 to 5 seconds, depending on your cable box and the speed at which it is capable of receving IR input. There are settings for fast, medium, and slow channel changes on the tivo so that you can adjust this. If you are just going to flip through channels, and have something against using the channel guide, you can still use your cable remote.

Re:Let me Guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

It is expected with an IR-Blaster interface. It is slow compared to a regular remote.

As the other poster mentioned, I find that I don't flip channels much with the tivo. I pull up the guide and scroll through it, then select a channel. This only requires one channel change and the guide is better for surfing since it describes the show that is on - instead of the old flip-though-commercials waiting for programming to resume.

Re:Let me Guess...

[rohdem]

I've only had my TIVO for a week, so I'm sure I haven't explored all the functionality, but the TIVO guide is transparent, so you can see the program behind the guide. It is split into two sections, the left side lists the channel numbers and what is currently on, the right side lists the next 8-10 programs that are on the channel you have selected.

Re:Let me Guess...

[cwerdna]

It does NOT take 30 seconds to change a channel. Yes, it does take longer than w/o the Tivo, but you'll never channel surf anymore.

You should have someone just loan you a Tivo and use it for a week. After a week, you'll say, "how the hell did I watch TV w/o this? I've been wasting my time screwing around w/my TV and VCR." You'll NEVER use your VCR again except to dump stuff to tape or to watch tapes.

I have two Tivos. I've got my 1st one over 2 years ago and I LOVE it. It TOTALLY changes the way you watch TV. You catch all sorts of stuff that you'd otherwise miss and you're no longer tied to TV schedules. Set a season pass for your favorite show (let's say it goes from 8-9 pm). Start watching at 8:20 and be done by ~9:00 pm.

Re:Let me Guess...

[cwerdna]

Exactly! The poster should try using a Tivo for a week. I bet after that week, he'll be like, huh? Why the fuck would I waste all this time screwing w/a PC, a mishmash of hardware, and half baked apps when it all just works?

Replay

[Jason1729]

Is it still a viable option to buy a ReplayTV? I thought they were in receivership right now, and if they do shut down, the ReplayTV boxes are useless because there will be no service.

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:Replay

[Talsin]

Actually they were purchased by D&M Holdings who recently have released their plans for releasing new boxes. Some of the new features will include the ability to pause a show on one DVR and then got to another network connected DVR and continue where you left off.

Re:An issue with Replay

[clonebarkins]

After SonicBlue declared bankruptcy, I would be wary of buying one simply because the future of the service is in jeopardy.

Whatever! I only buy stuff after the company goes bankrupt. That way you know they won't try and pull any sh*t on you!

Re:Another review...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unlike the new york times, that review isn't redundant or short on technical details. And the author isn't afraid to tell it like it is.

Why keep them?

[Malc]

Why would you want to burn stuff to CD to keep? I filled dozens of VHS tapes back in the 80's with stuff from the TV. Now I wonder why as I rarely rewatched any of it. I guess I was young and had too much spare time. These days there's rarely anything broadcast that I feel is so important to my life that I want to keep it. Why do people want to keep stuff from TV. What is so compelling that I'm not finding when I flip through the channels? It seems to me there are better things to do than waste ones life re-watching things you've already seen. Anybody watched the Royle Family? I find it painful and a rather uncomfortable reminder about the mindlessness of TV.

Re:Why keep them?

[HamNRye]

Ummm... Getting movies from HBO?? Original series (Mr. Show for example), or even just sharing with friends. Recording and storing concerts, etc...

The fact that none of the TV you watch is worth storing doesn't make it a bad idea.

Re:Why keep them?

[Anonymous Coward]

my sister is so addicted to anime, she programs the vcr to record every single episode of her favourite show, then she dubs every show in sequence, skipping the commercials, onto another tape.

woe is you if you somehow accidently mess up her vcr's programming.

i think she needs therapy.

Re:Why keep them?

[Azghoul]

I have to admit, I'm on the same side of the wall as you. I used to collect all kinds of junk: videos, music videos, mp3's more recently. But then I find that most of it just sits and collects dust.

That said, I certainly can't argue with people who do like to "pack rat" stuff away... to each their own, and all that.

However, if the Bills ever make another Super Bowl, you can bet I'll have it recorded. :)

Re:Why keep them?

[Eccles]

Why would you want to burn stuff to CD to keep?

Because then I'll feel no compulsion to watch it when it comes on the air. Those of us who remember the pre-VCR days remember seeing that, say, "The Great Escape" was coming on, and arranging one's schedule to watch it.

Kids watch the same thing numerous times, so they're more likely to want things recorded. A computer PVR is also useful for making CDs/VCDs/DVDs of home videos, which are worth archiving.

I suppose one might also end up trading for shows one hasn't seen.

Re:Why keep them?

[Anonymous Coward]

Digital sure does appeal to the pack-rat syndrome. I know it well.

Do like the parent poster did: look at whatever you pack-ratted (mp3s, movies, warez) and see how much you ever looked at or used again.

Re:Why keep them?

[Zathrus]

Getting movies from HBO

Uh... go out and buy/rent a DVD for some movie that HBO is showing. Now watch the two - either interleaved or one after the other.

Note that the DVD version is far better quality, usually shown in the original aspect ratio (aka letterboxed), and has far, far better audio.

Some of this is improved by going to digital sat, but not entirely. All of this is (potentially) fixed by watching HD-HBO, but that's a whole different discussion.

Of course, if you have a 20" TV and are using the built in sound, well, I suppose it won't matter to you in the least.

Re:Why keep them?

[Spudnuts]

However, if the Bills ever make another Super Bowl, you can bet I'll have it recorded.

Haven't you suffered enough?

Re:Why keep them?

[LordNimon]

I'm making a DVD collection of every episode of Good Eats because it's not possible to buy DVDs of every episode.

Re:Why keep them?

[koreth]

Mostly to show to friends, I can say from experience. I'm the first choice among my social group for "I was away a couple weeks ago and missed an episode of '24'" kinds of requests.

The thing that's stopping me from doing nearly as much taping as I used to, though, is that studios have started releasing DVDs of most of the shows I would have otherwise taped. Except in rare cases, they look much better than the original broadcasts, whether on DirecTV or analog, and they have commentaries, etc.

Also, having a TiVo with a large disk means that I don't have to keep shows around on tape for the purpose of showing recent stuff to friends who were out of town for a couple days, etc.

That said, I've been keeping DVD-Rs of a couple high-definition shows such as "Alias" -- HD-DVD is still a ways off and even when it becomes affordable, I imagine it'll be a while before the shows I enjoy are available. PC HD receivers rock. And I have been pulling shows from my DirecTiVo to archive to DVD, stuff I don't think is likely to be released any time soon.

Mostly I keep shows that I think there's a good chance I'll be able to addict other people to, e.g. "Twin Peaks" (which went through several sets of worn-out tapes from all the times I showed it.)

Re:Why keep them?

[haystor]

Let me save you the misery:

"Dallas Beats Buffalo, Again"

Re:Why keep them?

[tigga]

Uh... go out and buy/rent a DVD for some movie that HBO is showing.

Well, there are some movies that not worth $20 you pay for DVD and you intend to show it to friends and then to throw that CD out..

It's rather student thing - you have a lot of time and no money ;)

Re:Why keep them?

[John3]

You're right....I just tossed all the tapes I made in the 80's (copied off HBO). With DirecTV and TiVo, who has time to watch all the great stuff that gets recorded? Sure you can burn the shows to disk for later viewing, but if you can't keep up with the 35 hours (minimum) of stuff on the TiVo already when will you have time to watch the 500 hours of stuff you burned to DVD?

Plus in a year or two it'll all be available on demand anyway, for about the price of a blank disk.

Re:Why keep them?

[GrayCalx]

What I've found since I began PVRing is that there are so many programs I tape to watch later, I don't have time to back everything up. I used to keep a ton of simpsons around, but now I have so many simpsons, futurama, and family guy piled up that it doesn't matter. But to each his own...

Re:Why keep them?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't afford to rent a movie, but you can afford cable and HBO?

Lemme guess... you're not paying for the cable either.

Re:Why keep them?

[lavar78]

So I can enjoy the comedic genius of "NewsRadio" whenever I want. I have all 97 episodes on 25 DVDs -- I've watched them more than anything else I own. "The eyes are the window to the skull my friend." "Soul." "For those who have one, yes." "But Jimmy has fancy plans ... and pants to match."

Re:Why keep them?

[alcharn]

I understand what you mean. But everyone tapes things, why do you think people own VHS tapes and DVDs... so they can watch them as many times as they want!

Re:Why keep them?

[claud9999]

Unluckily, many good shows get cancelled and never get re-run. We want to record these shows because we can't buy them.

Why do people buy DVD's instead of rent them or watch the movies on HBO? Because they want the "watch on demand" flexibility and they want that satisfaction of knowing that it's there for them when they want to watch it again.

For example, three of my favs are The Tick [live action], Upright Citizen's Brigade, and Strangers with Candy. All of which have disappeared from their respective channels. I've VCD'd Tick and SwC (and will buy the DVD release of either if they come out). All three, to me, are awesome comedy material (arguably better than many movies in my DVD collection) that I love to watch every so often.

I agree that it's "record, watch, delete" for much of what I watch (movies, news, Simpsons/Futurama, etc). Mostly 'cause either it's topical or it'll eventually end up on DVD so I'll just wait to buy it then.

Re:Why keep them?

[HamNRye]

So you have answered one thing, getting movies from HBO. Yes, I could buy the DVD, but why?? Maybe it's a movie I don't really want to pay 20-25$ for, and I can rip to DIVX for free.

Umm....

[caffeinex36]

Still...I'd much rather use something like FreeVo or MythTV and actually burn my shows to cd, stream whatever I want, etc, etc."

Who says you can't do that with TiVo? Also...Compare the prices of hardware you need to decently do a good job doing it your way. Why bother? At most, hack TiVo, put a few HD's in it and rip right off TiVo...at least then you have a hardware encoder and dont have to worry about everything being all shitty, and spending 1k on hardware

Just my 2cents - Rob

Re:Umm....

[Anonymous Coward]

"and spending 1k on hardware"

Hardly, for those of us who want to DYI you only need to spend around $500 from scratch for a fully capable PVR that does everything that Tivo does without the monthly fees. You also get a MAME/gaming rig, a DVD player, and a mp3 jukebox. Done right a home built box kicks the craps out of Tivo. Sure its not for everyone, but for those of us who want extra features there is NO comparison.

Why do Tivo-heads find that so hard to understand why someone would want a box that can do so much more than a Tivo can?

Re:Umm....

[Malachi]

You know.. thats not a bad idea.. I've got a first gen Tivo that I should rig around into its own free-Tivo-eske idea.

Wonder if anyone has rerigged tivo to not talk to tivo anymore..

TTG (timetogoogle)

-M-

Re:Umm....

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the time involved and the integration issues rarely allow the homebuilt solution to work as well as standard components.

Additionally, the standard components are nearly always less expensive than the homebuilt.

Re:Umm....

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure. I got a Tivo in a lucky episode of dumpster-diving. It needed a new harddrive, which was easy enough to replace.

I wasn't interested in $15 a month or $300 for guide data, so I put my own guide data in it. It works pretty well.

This approach definatley isn't adviced for people who don't enjoy countless hours of screwing around with scripts and such. But if you would be doing that anyway (on some hobyy project), it will work just fine.

roll your own

[kajoob]

In the face of pressure from the tv industry, Replay may be dropping the 30 second skip feature and Tivo doesn't even have it unless you do the little hack and even then it's a pain in the butt. May I suggest taking a look at MythTV - it's a homemade PVR using linux, but if you take a look you'll see that it's full feature. You can schedule shows, the program listings are all there, it notifies you of scheduling conflicts, etc.. it is truly a Good Thing.

Re:roll your own

[zsmooth]

How is TiVo's 30-second skip a pain in the butt? You type a six button sequence to turn it on, which doesn't need to be done again until a reboot. Then it's just 1 button to skip 30 seconds. How is that hard?

I'll tell you what's a pain in the butt - building your own PVR. Trust me I've done it. I still love my TiVo more.

Re:roll your own

[jayemdaet]

I have tried both MythTV and Freevo.. Each of which took days to get to work and not fully. The quality of the broadcasts was very low and there were driver issues and hacks all over the place that had to be done just to get a common TV tuner to work correctly (AvertMedia). That aside I wasn't impressed with either product after weeks of fighting and research. I am looking at TiVO at this point.

Re:roll your own

[chill182]

Actually that article was referring to commercial skip, not the 30 sec advance.

Re:roll your own

[randyest]

In the face of pressure from the tv industry, Replay may be dropping the 30 second skip feature and Tivo doesn't even have it unless you do the little hack and even then it's a pain in the butt.

Please read your reference more carefully. Lots of posts in the thread you cited tried (apparently in vain) to clarify your error. ReplayTV/DM is not considering removing 30-second skip. Even the article summary is clear on this:

"Wired News is reporting that the new owners of ReplayTV are considering dropping the Commercial Advance and Send Show options features." I had bad luck with that function chopping out bits of show anyway. Between that and the 30 second skip function, I'm surprised ReplayTV has lasted this long!

Again, ReplayTV has two features that are useful for avoiding commercials: (1) Commercial Advance, which automagically skips commercials in recorded or timeshifted live TV, with no button pressing or any other sort of user intervention and (2) a 30-second skip button that the user can press to advance past commercials (also works in multiples of 30s by pressing a number key before skip, so 2 + skip = 1 minute advance).

Moreover, reading the actual article you referred to would have revealed to you that ReplayTV/DM is not planning to remove any features from existing models, so commercial advance, 30-second skip, and internet show-sharing are here to stay for existing models. ReplayTV/DM is, however, considering not including commerical advance and/or internet file sharing on future models. There is no talk of removing 30-second skip from future ReplayTV models. Got all that?

Also, the Tivo has no internet file sharing or automatic commercial advance, but the 30-second skip, which isn't enabled by default, is pretty trivial to enable (button-pressing only required, no opening the box or anything else that you might find scary, or reasonably call a pain in the butt).

All that said, I'd me more likely to buy a ReplayTV now than a few months ago. D&M bought 'em, so they're not going anywhere (so the service is not in jeapordy). Software updates with new features for existing models are on the way according to D&M. Heck, D&M even sent out a letter recently to those who bought ReplayTV a few months ago with the rebates, and indicated that they will be honoring the rebates. Future ReplayTV models may be less feature packed (I love commercial advance, personally). And, refurbed units with lifetime service included are available for incredible prices.

Re:roll your own

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to hit a button. ReplayTV's skip is automatic. Yes, the comment you replied to didn't make that clear, but you must know by now.

For me it's a pain in the butt to walk into the living room, find the remote, and skip that stupid commercial when CA misses one.

Re:roll your own

[vaylen]

That article is about Denon/Marantz considering dropping the COMMERCIAL SKIP feature. The 30 second advance is a different feature and I have not seen any mention of it being changed in any way. This whole Tivo/ReplayTV war needs to stop because PVR's as a market is in a tenuous position at best. Stop fighting over such a small slice of the pie and tell all those who don't own one how awesome it is to have *ANY* PVR. Once the user base is large enough to ensure the success of PVR's, you can go back to your fanboy attempts to slam the unit you do not own. I will say that thanks to my Replay 4040 and the DVArchive software I have been able to make a DVD set of Seinfeld and Freaks and Geeks with nothing more than a broadband connection, a home network, a PC and a $250 DVD burner. Not too shabby.

Re:roll your own

[aligas]

The main reason I don't even both to TRY something like MythTV is that they don't have the one feature I use non-stop on my TiVo - the Season's Pass.

I can set a Season's Pass to go out and record "Alias" on ABC, and do so only when the episode is new. Once I do that, the TiVo takes care of the rest.

Every other PVR I've seen either lets me record "Alias" all the time, or lets me record by timeslot. Either way, its not fire and forget like my TiVo is. I would end up with a ton of reruns to delete, or "specials" that preempted the show that night.

Re:roll your own

[MightyTribble]

Not quite - 'Commercial Advance' is being considered for exclusion, *not* 30 second skip. They're two different features.

I have ReplayTV 5000, and I don't use CA - it just doesn't work good enough to be useful. However, I use 30 sec skip all the time. Dropping 30 sec skip would be akin to removing the FF button.

Re:roll your own

[JarJarlicious]

How is TiVo's 30-second skip a pain in the butt?

It's not a pain to program it, but I never thought it was worth the trouble to use it. I'd catch the last few seconds of the last commercial and hit the skip button again, forcing me to rewind 27 seconds to see what I'd missed.

I much prefer to use the fast-forward in second gear -- it gets through the break fairly quickly and when I see the show come back on and hit play, it automatically backs up some so I don't miss anything (the amount it backs up is configurable, too).

Re:roll your own

[zsmooth]

When I overshoot using the 30-second skip, I just bounce on the 8-second replay until I get back to the start of the show. I use fast-forward a lot too, but I've found that I'm faster at hitting 30ss a bunch and going back with 8s.

Re:roll your own

[cardshark2001]

The article you linked didn't say anything about dropping 30 second skip, only commercial advance, which is something different.

Re:roll your own

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont care

Re:roll your own

[showmeshowyoukikoman]

Kajoob, you're a boob! You clearly have NEVER tried rolling your own PVR. Yeah, the tivo 30 second skip is a real pain in the but. I mean, I practically have to stop and think for a second about pressing those six buttons (in the right order you know!)

Sheesh.

I remember back when I got my first VCR. It was one of the fanciest you could get. It had a remote control. Sure the remote control was on a wire, and you tended to trip over the wire on your way from the couch to the kitchen, but that was hardly ever a problem. Except for the one time I tripped over it and it whipped up over the edge of the table and whacked my wife right in the side of the head! WHOAH BUDDY!

You think I had pork chops for dinner THAT night? Hah, think again amigo!

KIKOMAN

Re:An issue with Replay

[BonrHanzon]

The ReplayTV series was purchased by Denon & Marantz (makers of higher-end A/V receivers), a company with greater resources that SonicBlue ever had. So really they are better off now than they were before. Buy with confidence.

Tivo or MythTV?

[ccano]

I've owned and loved my Tivo for a little over a year, but I've had my eye on some of the opensource projects coming up that look awesome. In particular, I'm wondering if anyone can speak of their experience with MythTV or any other projects out there.

I've also had very little (read: none) experience with TV tuner cards on PCs -- I'd have to buy one of those, but I'm always been leery (for no particular reason) of television signal from cable on a PC.

Thoughts?

Re:Tivo or MythTV?

[xchino]

I've run both Freevo and MythTV and they are both great projects, each with it's own weaknesses and strengths. For a non-OSS geek I'd recommend just getting a Tivo, as the true power of these projects is their "hackability". In other words, if you want to put the time, effort, and perhaps deal with a learning curve then a homebrew PVR is definately for you. If you just want to hit a button and get your favorite shows, a Tivo is cheaper/easier.

Re:Tivo or MythTV?

[meringuoid]

I've also had very little (read: none) experience with TV tuner cards on PCs -- I'd have to buy one of those, but I'm always been leery (for no particular reason) of television signal from cable on a PC.

I have a TV tuner card, and it is great. However, in the UK multichannel TV is mostly done via digital transmissions, either terrestrial or by satellite; cable has never really taken off. That means having a set-top box on my PC, and that's just deeply wrong (and I think they require a SCART connection anyway).

I'm very tempted by Hauppage's WinTV Nova digital TV card. Expensive, though...

Also...

[caffeinex36]

Not sure if MythTV or Freevo work with DirectTV.

Re:Also...

[zsmooth]

No, they work great with DirecTV! You just need to get an infared transmitter (IR Blaster) and compile support into your kernel, then download the MythTV-DirecTV-IRBlaster-0.01-beta patch, apply it to your sources, blah blah blah...

Or if you would rather just spend your tv watching time actually *watching tv*, DirecTiVo is the answer.

Re:Also...

[SpectreGadget]

MythTV directions link to a grabber a guy has written for pulling DirecTV listings.

Then you have to hook up your receiver to the pc via serial to get MythTV to switch the receiver channel for you.

Re:Also...

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop being such a Tivo kiss-ass you fucktard.

Gee I wonder why your enemy list is so long. Dickhead.

Building your own

[Uhh_Duh]

Still...I'd much rather use something like FreeVo or MythTV and actually burn my shows to cd, stream whatever I want, etc, etc."

The /. crowd is still missing a valuable lesson in "building your own tivo" -- it's freaking EXPENSIVE! I love how all the lists of "needed hardware" included multiple super high-end video capture cards -- each of which costs the same as a full TiVo.

I love my TiVo (I own two of them). The software rocks. My wife can use it. My 2-year old can use it, and yet I'm still amazed at how powerful it is. Then along comes the OSS community. Builds a competitive box at 3x the price, software that's more difficult to use, and a feature-set that still can't compete. (yay for OSS).

Buy a real TiVo -- you won't regret it.

Re:Building your own

[atrus]

Huh?

A decent tuner card does not run for more than $60. And you only need one (MythTV for example can use more than one though). Now, a TiVo (not counting service) is still cheaper than a PC you build for the same functionality. Thats what you get with mass produced bare bones hardware.

Re:Building your own

[atheos]

"Then along comes the OSS community. Builds a competitive box at 3x the price, software that's more difficult to use, and a feature-set that still can't compete. (yay for OSS)."

What do you mean - THEN comes along the OSS community?
Your tivo was built on OSS software!

Re:Building your own

[gosand]

Then along comes the OSS community.

Psst. TiVo runs Linux. Pass it on.

Re:Building your own

[eyver]

The /. crowd is still missing a valuable lesson in "building your own tivo" -- it's freaking EXPENSIVE! I love how all the lists of "needed hardware" included multiple super high-end video capture cards -- each of which costs the same as a full TiVo. Now mind you, I have not yet built my own PVR, but have actually been looking into it quite a bit now. How is it more expensive? First, as far as I know, you'd need a VIA EPIA with at least around an 800MHz chip on it; that should set you back around $105 shipped. Then you'd need some memory; an extra $50. 80 gig hard drive; should be around $80. WinTV PVR card, to handle all the MPEG2 encoding from TV; $125. Mini-ITX power supply; $30. (Throw in some extra for a case, or put it in something fun like at mini-itx.com.) Linux distribution and an installation of Freevo or MythTV; free. No priceless joke at the end of the list: good. That totals under $400 ($390). I'd say put an extra $75 in the mix, just in case there are upgrades/other necessities, and you're at $465. When I was looking at TiVOs this past December, they ended up being well over this price with subscription services. Now, the question remains of whether or not my product list up there would be feasible...

Re:Building your own

[eyver]

And yes, it was my first official slashdot post. I'd have to have a good reason like that to ignore HTML formatting.

Re:Building your own

[jayemdaet]

I did build a PVR box and it cost me roughly $620. Mind you I opted for the 120gig hard drive and 512M of RAM. Be aware with either Freevo or MythTV that my Athlon 2200 was just a nudge over what being accurate for doing recording. I would venture to guess a person wouldn't be too thrilled with the performance of an 800 mhz machine. However, the time it took to work out the bugs (to which I gave up after two weeks of research and fighting) and when it did work during some trial tests (which were low quality sadly) I decided it wasn't worth it. For $620 and the time I spent, I could have opted for the TiVo and a lifetime subscription. Just my 2 cents.

Re:Building your own

[Lumpy]

I love how all the lists of "needed hardware" included multiple super high-end video capture cards -- each of which costs the same as a full TiVo.

if you tell me that a ATI Tv wonder VE is "super high-end " and costs as much as a full Tivo.. either you are on some very serious drugs, or I really need to start being your electronics retailer as you are buying at insanely inflated prices.

2 tuner cards for my freevo.... $50.00 TOTAL.
1.4Ghz AMd processor and mobo.. $200.00
40 gig drive (I'm a cheap ass) $35.00
19"wide case that looks like a 100 disc cd changer with a full width front door.. $250.00 (ok it was cool!)

Yes I spent more.. but in the end I a feature that no Tivo or replay TV owner can ever have..

the power to keep some corperate weenie OUT OF MY LIFE AND PROPERTY!

i'd pay for the service if I can force them to never update my firmware or read anything from my machine.

Re:Building your own

[xchino]

"The /. crowd is still missing a valuable lesson in "building your own tivo" -- it's freaking EXPENSIVE!"

It can be, if you're building a total TiVo killer. It's reasonably priced if you just want a PVR. In fact, my two PVR's both cost me $45 a peice. That's just the cost of the Tv tuner card I used. Other than that it cost me nothing but time and a little bit of know how, and I built an awesome PVR out of Free (from the colleges dumpster) and readily available hardware. Total cost for 2 PVR's.. ~$90. That's like half of ONE Tivo.

"I love how all the lists of "needed hardware" included multiple super high-end video capture cards -- each of which costs the same as a full TiVo."

You're looking at the wrong damn list then, I use one cheap ass TV tuner card in each and it works just fine. It can support multiple super high end video cards (Unlike your TiVO which is stuck basically as-is), but they are not requirements. It only has to be as bad ass as you want it to be.

"I love my TiVo (I own two of them). The software rocks. My wife can use it. My 2-year old can use it, and yet I'm still amazed at how powerful it is. Then along comes the OSS community. Builds a competitive box at 3x the price, software that's more difficult to use, and a feature-set that still can't compete. (yay for OSS).
"

What a crock of shit. Try this..

I love my Linux PVR's. I own two of them. The software rocks. *I* can use it, and *I* can extend to it in any way I see fit. I don't pay a service fee to use them either. The software rocks, and I can change it how I see fit instead of being stuck with what some other guy determined would be best for everyone. My mom can use it, my grandma can use it, and it's infinately more powerful than a TiVO. Then comes along some guy who simply doesn't understand the power of "rolling your own" and bashes free software that he's never used basing his arguments off of complete crap.

Freevo or MythTV may not come with the features you want, so you can put them in yourself. TiVo may not come with features you want... too bad.. pay up anyways, sucker.

Just because you fail to see the incredible usefulness behind an Open Source, freely available PVR, doesn't detract from the immense badassedness of those projects. Your argument is akin to "Just use Microsoft, Linux can't compare".

Some of us like to USE our equipment and at times that might not include a feature already in this one size fits all jogging suit you like to wear.

Re:Building your own

[Zathrus]

you'd need a VIA EPIA with at least around an 800MHz chip on it

I think you'd be deeply, deeply disappointed in the performance with that chip.

You've also forgotten an IR receiver, keyboard, mouse (both wireless... right?), CD-ROM (unless you somehow planned to boot and install Linux over the network), and probably a few other items. Toss in another $100 or so.

You know you can buy a refurb 80 hour S2 TiVo for $250 right now. Or a brand new one for $350. Or go to eBay and get a S1 box for ~$150. Add $300 for lifetime service and suddenly you have a box with an intuitive user interface that just plain WORKS.

If you find fiddling around with things to make them work is enjoyable, and what you like to do in your spare time, then go for the build your own route. After all, getting there can be half the fun, and no doubt -- you can get more options that way. If you like doing other things in your spare time, want your wife/family/SO/children/random strangers to be able to use it then get a TiVo or Replay. Then you can spend all your free time doing whatever else you want to do (be it watching TV or something else) instead of trying to make something that's "nearly there" there.

Re:Building your own

[eyver]

Be aware with either Freevo or MythTV that my Athlon 2200 was just a nudge over what being accurate for doing recording. I would venture to guess a person wouldn't be too thrilled with the performance of an 800 mhz machine.

This is why I'm still questioning my potential self-built PVR system. The WinTV PVR card encodes all TV feed into MPEG2 itself though, completely taking the stress off the processor, so there should (technically) be no worries about that, and the 800MHz should be fine, especially considering most modern VIA EPIA boards do MPEG2 decoding themselves (and support for that is coming along well in the Linux world).

Of course, one could also buy a two-slot adapter for the one PCI slot in the EPIA (around $15 on eBay) and fit in another PCI MPEG2 decoder card if they wanted. The processor should be pretty available then.

Re:Building your own

[lairdb]

Psst. TiVo runs Linux. Pass it on.

Pssst. Nobody cares -- it's all about the functionality and ease-of-use. Pass it on; this is what the OSS community seems to continually not get.

(For high enough values of nobody; i.e. the population that doesn't read Slashdot.)

Re:Building your own

[eyver]

I responded about the performance issue in another post in this thread.

You've also forgotten an IR receiver, keyboard, mouse (both wireless... right?), CD-ROM (unless you somehow planned to boot and install Linux over the network), and probably a few other items. Toss in another $100 or so.

IR receiver, keyboard, mouse, CD-ROM... if I don't already have all this handy and want to buy it myself, it is included in the "extra $75" I put in my parts list. No need for the extra $100. (I wouldn't pay extra for wireless keyboard/mouse.)

I was actually considering a TiVO, but I use standard cable service. Their monthly charge is too much for me. I don't like the idea of my $250 lifetime subscription going away when I want to get a new TiVO box or my own box dies. If I get an "80 hour TiVO," it's not going to have the 80 gig (or bigger) drive that I would get. And I know the phrase, "You pay for what you get," and the importance of paying extra for something that just works. I am a Mac user. ;)

TiVO is too much of a gamble for me though, and if the OSS PVR applications are coming along well, I think it would be fun to roll my own box if it could be approaching TiVO-like quality (just for recording a few shows and maybe pausing live TV every once in a while). It's also good knowing that the money I could plunk down for my own box was less than a TiVO, and I ended up with a functioning computer in the end too. It could act as an emulation console or any of many other purposes.

Re:Building your own

[Zathrus]

Their monthly charge is too much for me. I don't like the idea of my $250 lifetime subscription going away when I want to get a new TiVO box or my own box dies.

It's a $300 lifetime sub now BTW. Went up in February.

And it doesn't go away when you want to get a new TiVo box. Look at eBay - units with lifetime are selling for $300 more than units without. It's a non-depreciating feature, at least so far. And it's a lot better than throwing $13/mo away with no way of getting the money back in the future.

It's also possible that TiVo will offer a transferance in the future -- in March they offered any S1 TiVo owner the option to transfer their service to an S2 TiVo at no cost. Yeah, it was a zero-sum game since you could still sell the S1 TiVo on eBay and get your lifetime sub money out of it, but it made the process easier. Did it with both my TiVos, and happy I did - HMO is a nice addon.

If I get an "80 hour TiVO," it's not going to have the 80 gig (or bigger) drive that I would get.

The 80 hour TiVo's have 80G drives in them. A small portion is reserved for the OS, but that'll be true for a roll-your-own too. Still ends up with 80 hours of recording space (in Basic). And you can still add another HD trivially - there's upgrade instructions all over the place. I upgraded both my S1 TiVo's, but haven't felt the need to do so for the S2's - we've never even come close to running out of space.

Shrug - it's up to you, and you seem to have made your mind up. But I have friends who wanted PVRs a couple months ago. One decided to roll his own using MythTV. One bought a TiVo. Guess which one still doesn't have a functioning system? And has spent far more than the other friend did (including lifetime subscription)?

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are doing more than watching live TV, you will also need a high quality codec running. For this, your choices are an expensive video card with compression/decompression of MPEG2 (for instance) built in, or a fast processor in the 2GHZ range (no crappy VIA processors that come with the micro motherboards).

Re:Building your own

[gosand]

Pssst. Nobody cares -- it's all about the functionality and ease-of-use. Pass it on; this is what the OSS community seems to continually not get.

I was referring to the fact that the original poster dis-associated TiVo and the OSS community, when the OSS community is what has enabled TiVo to get where it is. What do you think that functionality and ease of use is built upon?

The mass population is benefitting from OSS software. People should continue to hack things themselves because it can produce great things and spur innovation. If you simply rely on the mass produced products to get what you want, you are truly just a consumer.

Re:Building your own

[eyver]

Shrug - it's up to you, and you seem to have made your mind up. But I have friends who wanted PVRs a couple months ago. One decided to roll his own using MythTV. One bought a TiVo. Guess which one still doesn't have a functioning system? And has spent far more than the other friend did (including lifetime subscription)?

Well, I doubt I'm going to do my PVR project for a while. But yeah, the Do-It-Yourself spirit took me over a few weeks ago. ;)

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds good in theory. Don't underestimate the effort required between theory and implementation.

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

Software based encoding is sketchy at best.

A machine thats sole purpose is encoding/capturing video should be doing the encoding in hardware.
A live capture using software encoding will use all of the processing power that 1.4Ghz processor has to offer. Trying to do anything else on the machine while it is recording will probably result in dropped frames and audio sync problems.

Not to mention the fact that real-time software mpeg encoding usually results in low quality video..

A good quality capture card that does mpeg2 encoding via hardware will cost around $200.

Re:Building your own

[Zapman]

Where should I look to get a refurbished s2 tivo? Froogle.google.com couldn't find one.

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you use MAME, play games, watch DVD's, and surf the web on a Tivo?

Spend that $550 on a DYI project and you get a box that beats Tivo in every way.

Sure you have to build it, but there is ample documentation out there and all it takes is a little patience.

Plus your home built box probably won't go out of business which could certainly happen to Tivo.

"Then you can spend all your free time doing whatever else you want to do (be it watching TV or something else) instead of trying to make something that's "nearly there" there."

Spoken like someone without a clue who hasn't used the latest software.

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

this is for tv viewing convience... not trying to encode for worldwide broadcast.

the $19.00 BT878 card is perfectly fine for 99.9997% of all users out there.

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but if you go to schedule another program, or watch a previously recorded program you are going to end up with dropped frames/audio sync problems in your recorded tv show.
For a machine thats sole purpose is to be capture, record, and playback video files that is unacceptable.

2Ghz+ PCs have difficulty keeping up with the encoding and disc IO required in capturing/recording tv broadcasts.
A 1.4 ghz machine would obviously have more trouble with the process...

The Microsoft "Media Center" requires a hardware based encoder for this very reason.
Software based encoding is just not feasible for a PVR.

Re:Building your own

[Zathrus]

Directly from TiVo - I don't have the link, but check out www.tivocommunity.com -- TiVoPony posted about it around a week ago. Limited availability.

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

Spend that $550 on a DYI project and you get a box that beats Tivo in every way.

Except user interface, which is the biggest issue.

Spoken like someone without a clue who hasn't used the latest software.

Spoken like someone who's never used a TiVo.

Re:Building your own

[Anonymous Coward]

Even with crappy software encoding, his rig costs at least $600 after you consider memory, boot media and input devices.

Re:Building your own

[lairdb]

What do you think that functionality and ease of use is built upon?

An OS that nobody* ever sees or cares about. An OS that may (or may not) have enabled the developers to deliver this functionality on this schedule, or faster, or slower. People were making products long before OSS, or OSs for that matter; it's all about the features. Only at a secondary-effect level is it about the tools used to achieve the end.

If ... mass produced ... just a consumer.

And by "just a consumer" you mean those other 6.3 billion people?

(

Okay, having said that, let's now go another direction. That the TiVo product is built on an OSS has, in fact, had a couple of primary effects:

• adoption
  
  Having participated in several of the TiVo-related online communities almost since their inception, there is zero doubt in my mind that a considerable population of early adopters purchased TiVo on religious grounds; i.e. because it was OSS based. Amplifying that effect is an associated characteristic that most such people have, that of being committed evangelists. There is similarly no doubt in my mind that this evangelism has had an additional substantial effect.
  
• community enhancements
  
  The user community has clearly had an extension and enhancement effect on the TiVo product that would have been unlikely were it not based on a commonly available OS, and debatably less likely were it not based on a nerd-oriented OS. This has a direct effect of increasing use and acceptance (those who might not buy the product if, for example, the storage was not expanded.) As well, we can hypothesize an indirect effect of driving the company toward faster innovation and perhaps adoption of particular features, based on the community deveopment.

)

Re:Building your own

[grouchyDude]

The build-your-own cost was already beaten to death in this

slashdot article. While it's a bit dated, the cost of a do-it-yourself Tivo/replaytv can also be found here (although they are a bit dated):

for both replay and tivo.

Very important is that you also need to get the TV-guide-snagging software configured, which is a bit painful. Perhaps worse, if it ever really catches on you can be sure the people who provide the guide info will want their slice (which is covered by the Tivo/ReplayTV subscriptions).

Lastly, the idea of building your own cheaply assumes your time is free, which makes sense if you are doing it for fun, but isn't really a sensible econimic argument.

Re:Building your own

[marauder404]

I understand all your concerns, but it's amazing how they become a non-issue once you actually have a TiVo and have used it for a while. If you look at TiVo vs. the roll-your-own versions, it's just incomparable how fit and polished TiVo is in every way.

I STRONGLY recommend that if you still have concerns, grab one off of eBay with a lifetime subscription built into it. Try it for a few weeks and see how you like it. If you don't like it, you can sell it on eBay for about what you paid for it, minus shipping and a listing fee.

Re:Building your own

[ediron2]

Very important is that you also need to get the TV-guide-snagging software configured, which is a bit painful. Perhaps worse, if it ever really catches on you can be sure the people who provide the guide info will want their slice(which is covered by the Tivo/ReplayTV subscriptions).

Years ago, I remember reading that the market value for TV Guide was greater than for the TV programming or tv stations themselves, or somesuch.

Since then, and especially in the face of this quote, I keep wondering WHY that should be. Without being cliche, this data really *wants* to be free, and at some point, an ad-hoc dataset for this is inevitable.

I own a ReplayTV. I have tested DishPVR (not shabby) and don't consider myself expert on Tivo enough to comment, but I have repeatedly (not a lot, but enough to be annoying) 'missed' part or all of a desired show due to bad guide data. That is part of what has pushed me to look at MythTV. Tivo/Replay/etc have slim economic incentive to push toward 100% correctness and give me better programming data because I'm a captive box-owner. I can't leave them in frustration without my PVR becoming a paperweight.

Getting another data source would be a welcome change to where we are now. The data just isn't worth $10, let alone the increased price of $13 a month! Hell, a paper copy of TV guide has higher distribution costs and is cheaper. My newspaper is cheaper per month and includes a paper guide.

With a mechanism like CDDI, guide data consolidation can easily become a shared/cooperative act.

• Vendors (TV stations) will actively work to get their show data to the largest population:
• A TV station can't afford to ignore a viewer segment because they're not listed in the guide.
• I can't imagine that several hours configuring an XML or RSS-like adapter to their programming database will bother a TV station eager to get even a slight increase in viewership.
• Fans, viewers, etc. will be more enabled to fix bad/defective information in a cooperative dataset.

So, let me ask again...

Who the hell thinks there is any sense to the pricing structure? Why should we pay $13 a month for a few megs of data (less if show/episode data was stored in a relational-database way, with keys for director, actor, genre, rerun, RottenTomatoes.com rating, fanpage URL's, and etc)?!

Everyone I know says Tivo's fee is less for the guide data and more for the added capabilities like season subscriptions and favorites lists. All of these features would be easier to create in software if we had CDDI-for-TV, incidentally.

Re: Building your own

[Rick Richardson]

It just so happens that last weekend I setup a MythTV box. I used a $20 AverTV stereo tuner card that I got from CompUSA (the sale is still on). The video card is a $50 nVidia GeForce 440MX clone. The rest of the computer is a 2.4Ghz P4, 60 GB disk, and 512MB RAM. My 9 year old put that computer together from the parts for $400.

I had never setup a MythTV box before. I just used "apt-get" to get the RPMS for Redhat 9. They installed painlessly. The MythTV setup was going within an hour. I had only two simple problems during the install, covered by the FAQ. One was that I needed to run the KDE desktop, and the other was that I needed to set the audio mixer properly (otherwise, I would hear the live audio, rather than the delayed audio).

I'm recording using MPEG-4 compression with it. I set it for max quality and a 30 minute TV show is taking up 750-1000 MB's.

It seems like a great setup, and I'm looking forward to blasting the MPEG-4's onto a DVD drive for archival storage. I need to save "The Simpsons" shows until my kids are old enough that my wife will let us watch those shows. :-)

-Rick

Re:Building your own

[eison]

www.google.com had no trouble finding one, "refurbished tivo" immediately yields http://www.tivo.com/2.7.asp

Don't pay extra for more space, swapping the hard drives or adding a second drive is tremendously easy.

I love my TiVo, but I get the impression ReplayTV is more of a geek's toy. I'm surprised they are always mentioned less in these PVR articles.

Re:Building your own

[christopherfinke]

I'd have to have a good reason like that to ignore HTML formatting.

Luke - use the preview button... That's what it's the-e-e-ere fo-o-o-or...

Re:Building your own

[cwerdna]

Regarding having a 800 mhz machine or a 2.2 ghz machine, people shouldn't forget that Series 1 Tivos do it all with a 54 mhz PowerPC chip and only 16 megs of RAM (32 megs on DirecTivos). The Tivo CTO mentioned they get 11% steady state CPU utliization on that. Having dedicated MPEG encoder and decoder chips help. The perf of Tivo is more than adequate 90% of the time.

Series 2 Tivos have 32 megs of RAM and a 200 mhz MIPS proc.

Yup, your experiences hit the nail on the head. The original poster should really try rolling his own using half-baked crap and then try a Tivo.

TiVo works with both PC and Mac

[mrklin]

That's all I really needed to convince me. The fact it uses Rendezvous networking technology and has an establish fan/accessory (802.11b hack!) is a further plus.

-I have a gen1 Tivo.

Re:An issue with Replay

[bazabba]

I would be wary of buying one simply because the future of the service is in jeopardy.

That is some horrible information there. I am not worried about my ReplayTV service that has not had a single problem since my purchase last year. If you haven't heard/read, ReplayTV was purchased by a good company, D&M.

Here's an article

Maybe you should reconsider giving out advice.

Anyway, yeah, it'd be cool to have some kind of software solution to all this (preferably Free software), but as it is, it just doesn't seem feasible, mostly because TiVO hardware is cheap and a large part of what you're paying for is the guide service, anyway.

These are mentioned everytime a TiVo/ReplayTV article is published, do a Google search for MythTV or SageTV

A much better comparison

[anaradad]

There are much better comparisons available, including http://pvrcompare.com/ , a great site for people considering a PVR purchase.

Why is ReplayTV always picked on?

[Anonymous Coward]

I own a ReplayTV 5000 series. There is a lot of open source software available for it to allow for endless uses. The best is DVArchive. This software basically emulates a new ReplayTV on your network. It allows you to have an unlimited amount of space for shows (limited by your available HD space) without having to "hack" your ReplayTV. These shows play in real time from your computer just as if they were on the local box. They are saved as MPEGs, so you can easily burn an SVCD or convert to another format.

As for the bankruptcy issue, ReplayTV was bought by D&M, the company that produces products under the Denon and Marantz brands. The Service has and is going to continue as normal. The price for monthly service and lifetime activation are going to increase (they will now be equal to Tivo's), but that does not affect current lifetime customers in any way.

Re:Why is ReplayTV always picked on?

[prozac79]

I own a ReplayTV 5000 series. There is a lot of open source software available for it to allow for endless uses. The best is DVArchive. This software basically emulates a new ReplayTV on your network. It allows you to have an unlimited amount of space for shows (limited by your available HD space) without having to "hack" your ReplayTV. These shows play in real time from your computer just as if they were on the local box. They are saved as MPEGs, so you can easily burn an SVCD or convert to another format.

I also own a ReplayTV and I whole-hearted agree with the statement above. Not only can I store shows on my PC's harddrive, but I can also stream shows directly from my ReplayTV to my computer using DVArchive. So I can be doing some work on my computer while watching a show in a small window. So there is no need for a TV-tuner card on my machine. Furthermore, if space is an issue, I can also take all those downloaded tv programs and compress them into nice, small DivX files and put them on CD's. Heck, I can even watch those DivX files on my TV from my computer using X10's Entertainment Anywhere.

Directv Tivo

[asdfasdfasdfasdf]

The DirecTV Tivos copy the satellite stream including Dolby digital as they come off the Sat-- so they are as "perfect" as the source-- which means for hi-bitrate channels like HBO, it's not DVD quality, but it's better than any cable I've seen.

The flipside is that the DirecTivos are more difficult to hack, and I don't think there's any easy way to Hack the HDVR2 (latest and 'greatest')

As others have mentioned, the HDVR2 is plagued with audio issues, while not devastating, still annoying-- and there hasn't been a patch since release-- 8 months ago. Also, there's no word on support for Home Networking for this model, even though the hardware supports it. :-P

I've been too lazy-- but if if I give up on DirecTV sanctioned networking, I'm going to actively persue video extraction options.

Re:Directv Tivo

[zurkog]

The flipside is that the DirecTivos are more difficult to hack

Not so; the Series 2 DirecTivo's (and Standalone's) are more difficult to hack. I've got a Series 1 DirecTiVo (Phillips), and I've added a second hard drive, an ethernet card, installed Tivoweb, and can extract crystal-clear video from it. :-)

Re:Directv Tivo

[chhamilton]

asdfasdfasdfasdf said:
The flipside is that the DirecTivos are more difficult to hack, and I don't think there's any easy way to Hack the HDVR2 (latest and 'greatest')

Not necessarily true. In fact, the DirecTiVos are just as easy to hack as the stand-alone TiVos, and most of the hacking work on the two types of boxes overlaps.

The TiVo hacking community is quite strong, and things have come a long way. If you haven't checked things out recently, then you owe it to yourself to do so. There are lots of cool hacks out there:

• FTP or HTTP extraction of MPEG2 video
• FTP or HTTP insertion of MPEG2 video
• complete and useable WUI
• sharing recordings between boxes
• on screen caller display
• on screen email/instant message notification
• much more...

My favorite resource are the forums over at DealDatabase (http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/). You'll find lots of info and links on hacking your TiVo (new or old, DirecTV or standalone). Oh, and the Series2 TiVo's have been thoroughly hacked as well.

asdfasdfasdfasdf said:
The DirecTV Tivos copy the satellite stream including Dolby digital as they come off the Sat-- so they are as "perfect" as the source-- which means for hi-bitrate channels like HBO, it's not DVD quality, but it's better than any cable I've seen.

The DirecTiVo saves video at 480x480, standard 29.97 fps, with some channels coming in at 720x480. This is less then HDTV at its best (1920x1080), roughly the same quality as DVD (720x480), better than standard broadcast (~460x360), and much better than VHS (~300x360).

Re:Directv Tivo

[ad0gg]

Actually you are wrong. When Directivo first came out you could select the qualities, but after the very first software update it now defaults to auto and removed the menu option to change it. Its not directv stream, try watching family guy from tivo compared to watching it live. You can seen the artifacts especially when it cuts to a new scene.

Re:Directv Tivo

[asdfasdfasdfasdf]

Oops. I submitted too quickly. I meant HDVR2 is harder to hack-- I knew the DTivo (one) was easier than this one.

I was just referring to the HDVR2 (hardest) vs. the Tivo 1 SA(easiest) Ironically, I own one of each. :-P

Re:Directv Tivo

[GregGardner]

Actually you are wrong. There isn't an MPEG encoder in the box at all and there never was. So unless the 50MHz Power PC chip inside is doing 2-stream real-time MPEG-2 encoding, the DirecTivo is and always was just storing the MPEG-2 data straight off the satellite.

Re:Directv Tivo

[GregGardner]

He might have been referring to the fact that the Series 1 DirecTivos started scrambling the video stream on disk starting with software version 2.5. As far as I know (and I could be wrong), the Series 1 Standalone's have never done any video scrambling. Therefore hacking a S1 DirecTivo is slightly more complicated than hacking a S1 Standalone by adding one step to the process.

Of course this scrambling is easy to turn off once the box is hacked, but it can leave you in a "bad" state where you have saved video that is scrambled and new video that isn't and you can only play one type at a time without leading/unloading a kernel module. So it can be a bit of a pain.

BTW, I love that DirecTivo onscreen caller-id, too. ;-)

APEX DVR

[bazabba]

Looks like APEX is joining the bunch. This also includes a DVD player, or rather this DVD player includes a DVR. I don't read anything about a service fee either.

ADR-1000

Re:APEX DVR

[RandomCoil]

There's no service fee because there's no service.

The unit does not appear to have the ability to download TV schedules like a Tivo or ReplayTV. You'd use it the same way you'd use a VCR to time shift programs: by manually programming the recording times into it. Interesting new toy, though.

Re:APEX DVR

[silentbozo]

Hmmm... Someone ought to come up with an IR gizmo that hooks up to your computer that downloads program guides, then tells your Apex DVR to turn on and record the desired channel at the appropriate time.

Re:APEX DVR

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one. It's calle a TiVo.

Tivo, home network, and mp3s

[Zapman]

I see (with much excitement) that tivo's now grok home networking, and playing of MP3's. Poking around the website it seems it only works with their software on "PC's and Mac's". The obvious question is can I hack it to play from Linux? If so, they just got a new convert.

Re:Tivo, home network, and mp3s

[entrager]

The protocol that TiVo uses for it's HMO (Home Media Option) is open. http://developers.tivo.com

There is a Linux server available that I think is better than the official TiVo server already. http://ptivohmo.sourceforge.net. You have to get it out of CVS, but it works great.

The server has a few problems here and there, but it's updated frequently. I use it daily and very rarely have any problems.

Re:Tivo, home network, and mp3s

[entrager]

Woops, bad link. Try this one instead :)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ptivohmo/

Any comparisons with Bell ExpressVu 5100?

[Tool Man]

In Canada, one of the small-dish providers has a PVR-equipped box as one of the receivers availale. Has anyone actually used it, and better yet, compared it with the Tivo or ReplayTV?

Re:Any comparisons with Bell ExpressVu 5100?

[Tool Man]

Found some info here...

Digital Home Canada

Re:Any comparisons with Bell ExpressVu 5100?

[Anonymous Coward]

Friend of mine has one, it works fine; he likes it.

But it lacks any of the advanced features that Tivo has (rescheduling, etc).

The video/sound quality is straight off the feed, so there is no loss there though.

'course, he has Guide data, unlike me (Tivo, Series 2). So my functionality is about equal to his, except I have to use the cable box guide to plan recordings....

My Issue with ReplayTV and rolling my own

[AnswerIs42]

Compatability with DirecTV.

I bought a ReplayTV first... but after trying every way to get it to work with my direcTV receive and failing, I called DirecTV and according to the techs I talked to.. Replay systems are "not supported" .. they are.. but the DirecTV receiver I needed for it to work was another 150$.

So, I took it back to best buy the next day.

I think looked at rolling my own.. but 1) they didn't compare cost wise and 2) nothing was mentioned with them working well with DirecTV. All the linux/windows packages are geared for Cable Boxes, not satelite.

So, I ended up at plan C) .. buy a refirb DirecTV/Tivo receiver. That was 6 months ago and not a problem since. And Tivo is actually cheaper that way.. 4.95$ a month.

Re:My Issue with ReplayTV and rolling my own

[the_machine]

I've been looking at buying the DirecTV/Tivo combo, but was under the impression that you could only record the satellite feed. Are you able to record anything from the local antenna as well?

Re:My Issue with ReplayTV and rolling my own

[aclute]

No, but you can pass is through.

There is no mpeg encoder in the DTiVo (because it takes the bitstream from sat)

Not to gloat, but...

[Asprin]

I must be the luckiest guy in the world....

We just traded our cable box for a PVR through our cable company. We got an integrated PVR/cable box with a 40 hour hard drive, and almost no DRM - we can record everything except pay-per-view. They even let us spit stuff out onto tape if we want.

All for $5 per month. (JOY!)

All the standard PVR features are there, though there's no commercial skip button.

Now, here's the interesting part:

The cable box is from Atlanta Scientific (not sure of the model number - 8???? I think), and declares itself as a Pioneer brand device on the firmware boot screen. The box itself is software upgradeable (by the cable company) and has what looks like:

* RCA inputs (tech told me video source will be functional in a few days, so these may be usable soon)
* 1 USB port
* 2 FireWire ports
* Something that looks like a smartcard slot

Anybody know anything about these and what the extra ports can be used for?

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[bazabba]

We just traded our cable box for a PVR through our cable company. We got an integrated PVR/cable box with a 40 hour hard drive, and almost no DRM - we can record everything except pay-per-view. They even let us spit stuff out onto tape if we want.

How is this different from TiVo/REplayTV? Actually, I think TiVo/ReplayTV can record PPV, you just can't transfer them.

All for $5 per month. (JOY!)

SO you're renting the device. Once you stop service you probably have to give it back. Maybe not a bad deal but I don't know if this makes you the luckiest guy in the world, and most likely aren't the only customer with this provider using a PVR.

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[bazabba]

I didn't mean to post it yet. I didn't finish or proof read. Anyhow, I believe that a few Satellite providers off PVR rentals as well, such as DirecTiVo. Once you use a PVR/DVR, you are going to want one for your very own!

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[The Lynxpro]

You must have Time Warner Cable... its the only PVR from a cable company that can actually record two shows at once. But you don't have commercial skip or fast forward, or anything like TiVo's Season Passes. Just remember, you get what you pay for.

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[Asprin]

Ok, you're right, I was a little exhuberant -- sorry 'bout that and....

OH, CRAP! I JUST REMEMBERED THE BEST FEATURE:

It has TWO tuners!
I can record two shows at once, and it can do picture-in-picture through the PVR even though my TV can't. [grin]

Sorry, again, but when I found out about THAT feature, it was so unexpected I forgot all about it when I posted the first time.

Anyway, for me, there are several reasons why renting is attractive.

* The $5/month price tag (we have digital cable with the HBO package - it's $10/month if you don't get any movie channels) is far FAR lower than the $15-$20/month I expected when they announced the service was coming a few months ago. I think that's even below the TiVO monthly subscription. It used to be, anyway. Figuring on a $500 investment for a TiVO ($250 for the box, plus $250 for the lifetime subscription) gives me 100 months (8+ years!) of service through the cable company with an onsite hardware service contract, assuming rates don't increase. I'm pretty sure whatever TiVO or ReplayTV I would have gotten would have been obsolete well before 8 years were up.

* This is likely a non-issue, but I like the idea that the channel listings are updated at the same time by the cable company, so I don't have to worry about screwed up recordings while I wait for two services to get the new channel lineup correct.

* My wife has to be lured into new things like this. $500 isn't a lure, it's a yard swing.

* I wanted a cheap exit strategy in the unexected event that **I** didn't like it. To each his own, but I can call them tomorrow and have them pick it up and I'm out a grand total of five bucks. :)

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[Asprin]

Correct.

Season passes? Is that where the box records the show whenever it's on on any channel? Yes, I have that, too.

I also have fast forward, reverse, slow-mo, all of it, but I can only scan through the part of the show that's been aired and watched/recorded already. (obviously :)

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless, of course, you realize that television is mindless drivel, and lift your ass off the couch and go outside. You'd be amazed at how much more you can enjoy the real world than you will that goddamn noisy box.

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[llamalicious]

Sounds like you have the Explorer 8000.

I have the same thing through Time Warner cable, it replaces your digital box, and you get a new remote. It's currently $6.95/mo in my area (Central New York) on top of the digital fees. I find it absolutely worth it, but for the naysayers out there, here's my pro/con list:

Pros:

• Same digital cable guide you've been used to (for TWCNY customers anyway) with a couple added options.
• Pretty damn good quality on playback.
• Can record two channels simultaneously
• There's 3 speeds of fast-forward/reverse (see note in the Cons)

Cons:

• No way to set a preference to automatically grab an extra 5-10 minutes at the beginning and end of a show when scheduling (you have to do it manually, not sure if other PVRs support this)
• Sluggish response. At times the thing is downright slooow... so, don't expect to just pop into a channel and record. It may take anywhere from 2-30 seconds to actually start recording a station that you just changed to.
• There's only 3 speeds of FF/RV... I'm hearing all about this 30-second skip on TiVo, et. al... and this box could also benefit from that.

And yes, there are 2 firewire ports and what appears to be USB on the back, and a plethora of input/output options. If I remember tonight, I'll reply to this post (or in my Journal) with the list of ports (or SciAtl's spec sheet) unless someone else gets to it first (wouldja, couldja?)

Disclaimer: I'm really a lightweight tv watcher with a meager 32" SONY Flatscreen, SONY surround sound system. I don't watch HD, I just like my basic tv watching and surround and not missing my shows due to a busy schedule.

Grammar nazis: yeah, I know I started a sentence with a preposition; I also didn't bother to spellcheck.

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You Sanctimonius Prick

Re:Not to gloat, but...

[danielobvt]

Bzzztt..... Wrong. Please Try again.

Cox Communications has basically the same box, and it too can record 2 channels at the same time.

Still not half as useful as my Tivo.

Think that's great?

[siskbc]

Wait till Taco posts it again in 10 minutes. Then it'll be GREAT!

TiVo lacks functionality

[rsletten]

For those of you who dont know, when you have a TiVo hooked up to your television, you aren't watching "live" TV. You are watching TV from about 1 second earlier. This is required for of the ability to pause or rewind live TV.

This can cause problems. I have Digital Cable from TW which offers Dolby Digital 5.1 surround on some channels and I have a high end audio system. Because TiVo does not have digital audio out nor support for it, I literally have to discontinue to EVER watch a show in digital 5.1 surround because of that 1 second lag in between live TV and Tivo TV. The audio and video aren't synced up.

Also, because you are not watching live TV, video quality suffers even on "best" recording mode. The bigger your TV, the more you will notice. Mine is 65" so I notice quite a bit.

Re:TiVo lacks functionality

[brucehappy]

If you had a DirecTivo you wouldn't have this problem...it has digital audio out and you are watching the stream live.

Re:TiVo lacks functionality

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine is 65" so I notice quite a bit.

Wow! I am humbled. I was proud of my 10" until now...

*ducks!*

ReplayTV to DVD & "wish lists"

[declana]

I use one of the alternate video outs (as opposed to "send to vcr" feature) to record directly to an A/V dvd recorder. Very good quality on trasnfer even on medium quality. Using an AV component instead of extracting files is less hassle and you can make the recording as you watch the original. Also, anyone comparison shopping from this article should note that the ReplayTV does have a "wish list" type feature that is integrated into the regular show search (Tivo requires you to set up these requests in an entirely seperate menu feature).

TiVo is OSS...

[The Lynxpro]

The operating system that runs the TiVo hardware is Linux...just so you know... It is TiVo's value added UI and program guides that make it the premium service that it is. Just like Apple with OS X...

DirectTV??

[moonboy]

Is anyone using FreeVO or MythTV with DirectTV? If so, have you somehow set things up so that your PC can change the channels on the set top box (RCA brand in my case)? I've heard of some possible hacks using and IR device connected to a PC and using it to change the channels on the DirectTV set top box. Thoughts?

Re:DirectTV??

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use a serial cable which connects to the 'Low Speed Data Port' on your dss recevier.

ReplayTV is the bomb

[invisik]

Hey,

I recently compared and purchased my first PVR, a ReplayTV 5040 machine. Everyone I know has a TiVo ver 1 and they like it. Why did I choose Replay over TiVo ver 1 or ver 2?

Mainly because of being able to send shows from box to box over ethernet. And to best that, you can run DVArchive on a computer and it acts as another ReplayTV box on the network. You can save shows to it and play shows off of it.

TiVo has crappy broadband connectivity. Ver 2 is supposed to support USB. What additional hardware are you going to have to buy to connect that to something? I've got CAT5 running already out my DSL, I just plugged in my replay, it got an IP from DHCP and that was it.

Also, I found on avsforum.com some of the authors of the ReplayTV software hang out and answer questions. Much nicer then having to contact someone at Phillips.

You can record shows, and play them back whenever you want in both of them, blah blah. But this ethernet stuff is the wave of the future. :)

-m

Re:ReplayTV is the bomb

[Anonymous Coward]

This is possibly the worst comment I've ever seen on /.

"Ver 2 is supposed to support USB."

Supposed to???, it either does or it doesn't. Tip, it does.

"What additional hardware are you going to have to buy to connect that to something?" oooo, a usb to ethernet converter, now wasn't that hard!!!

" Much nicer then having to contact someone at Phillips." *cough* thats so clueless I won't even comment.

"But this ethernet stuff is the wave of the future. :)" The way to pay so much to legal types that you are guaranteed to go bust, why yes it is!

Congrat's, you bought a machine from a company that went bust. You will loose all these features you like very soon.

Re:ReplayTV is the bomb

[The Lynxpro]

Replay is "da bomb." The product tanked the original company, then SonicBlue purchased the remains, and lo and behold, they are now out of business. And 100,000 subscribers to Tivo's 700,000+. You definitely described the situation accurately!

Re:ReplayTV is the bomb

[The Lynxpro]

Wait....the Replay engineers hang out in the online forums? You mean SonicBlue didn't ship them to India when they packed up the Customer Support call center and sent them to that third world country? Wow. TiVo has a whole online community that knowledgeable owners and employees hang out at, and TiVo's Customer Support call center is located in New Mexico. Beat that...

Re:ReplayTV is the bomb

[Boglin]

TiVo has crappy broadband connectivity. Ver 2 is supposed to support USB. What additional hardware are you going to have to buy to connect that to something? I've got CAT5 running already out my DSL, I just plugged in my replay, it got an IP from DHCP and that was it.

Just to clear a few things up. First, Ver. 2 isn't supposed to support USB, it does support USB (I own one). As to the additional hardware you have to buy, all it takes is a ethernet NIC, which I picked up at Best Buy for $30 to connect it to the network. It then immediately got its IP via DHCP and was done. I freely admit that ReplayTV having the ethernet port on the back would have saved me the $30 and about five minutes effort, but to say that TiVo is left off of ethernet would be a incorrect.

Heh...

[DaneelGiskard]

...you can program your favorite DVR to record a show from a remote computer or from another (same-brand) DVR.

Tivo/Replay hacking just got a whole new meaning... ;-)

...and so is Sony

[Psykechan]

Didn't we just see this? Sony is introducing a PlayStation2 with DVR capabilities and DVD recording.

Honestly though, I've had and loved my TiVo for many years. The interface and remote design is superb. OTOH, I shudder when my Xbox (costly DVD player) refuses to play a disc and I have to resort to the PS2 with it's "The operation you have chosen cannot be performed on this disc" messages everytime I touch the controller.

they both suck

[Lumpy]

as most of the channels I want to record are now up on digital cable land and nother of these units CAN RECORD THEM without using the digital box, and cant detect if the digital box is actually on. so if your universal remote screwed up last night and didnt turn off the digital box... when tivo wakes up it get's ready to record your show and then shuts off the digital bot to happily record 1 hour of black screen.

It would take very little to add the ability for the tivo or replay to detect video presence and fix this tiny bug.. but they wont.

Motorola will kill them both anyways... the DCT-9000 has PVR abilities in it and will be a retail store item for cable customers to buy.

Re:they both suck

[duplicate-nickname]

Umm...that's why you leave your digital cable box on all of the time. I've never had a problem with my RTV and digital cable.

Re:they both suck

[mchasal]

Actually, Tivo never tries to turn the cable box on. It assumes it is always on. So if your box gets shut off for any reason (like a reboot from the head end) recordings will fail until someone comes and turns the box on. This is the main reason I got rid of my cable box and just use analog cable now. I really don't need 7 HBOs so I can see Crocodile Dundee 3 whenever I want.

Why I like ReplayTV over TIVo

[neogeek]

I have had both and have "hacked" both... Currently I use the ReplayTV for it's ease of use for video extraction. DVArchive is a program that alows you to emulate another ReplayTV on your computer for unlimited file storage. Also you can stream from or to your ReplayTV. All that without having to touch your box. Tivo requires voiding your warranty.
YES, Tivo has a much better UI and is eaiser to navigate, but. For my $ I prefer easy no voiding warranty access to my PVR and less effort. I respect the TIVO hacking community that I was apart of, but I got bored.

Re:Why I like ReplayTV over TIVo

[fundun]

Yeah, I'd hate to void that 90 day warranty....

MCE

[JVert]

Sticking my neck out I think Microsofts XP Media Center Edition is the best solution out there for PC DVRS. For those of you who can't afford the $1300 price for an MCE machine tag you can download the MCE add on to XP if you are an MSDN subscriber (or search "media centre edition" on your favorite p2p). MCE has alot of great features and the interface is of course very clean compared to the other PC DVR software. There is not monthly cost for the guide, its just, nice.

Thanks!

[BLKMGK]

I had looked HARD at the ReplayTV awhile back and was thrilled to see that people had figured out how to spoof a Replay box. Since then I had not been watching the development of the Replay community. The DVArchive software is a BIG leap forward IMO, I appreciate that lead.

My BIGGEST requirement in a PVR is that I be able to move things to offline storage and the Replay is by FAR the easiest one to do that with. The TIVO requires all sorts of hoops and last I'd heard (many months ago) it was still hit or miss while Replay uses MPEG which is standard. I take it you lose the 5.1 though?

The biggest issue I have now is that I have DISH and will suffer a double encode loss :-( DISH has their own PVR but I don't think the 721 has been hacked yet and DISH wants me to shell out an obscene amount of money for it since I'm not a new subscriber...

Anyone hacking the 721? bigger drives? Video extraction?

Well, I know they SUCK compared to TiVos

[mckwant]

We've got one of these, and two TiVos. The AtlSci box:

• doesn't keep track of space - shuts off recordings when it hits capacity with no notification
  
• does a lousy job with season passes
  • if you try to record something at the same time, it'll delete all recordings of your season passes
  • if you stop recording in the middle of the program to watch something else (say, leaving a Simpsons you've seen a billion times for the NBA), the season pass stops recording all the shows for that season pass at the time you killed the recording.
  
  
• Is very slow to react to remote keypresses, especially when starting up a recording.

I could go on. Also, I'm pretty damn sure that TW won't be distributing any cable box that'll let you dump anything via FireWire. Call it a hunch.

No TiVoes or ReplayTVs down here...

[hummassa]

Freevo and MythTV are really my only options, I just wanted to know how do I control my SkyTV receiver via its serial port... :-)

You can get video from Replay

[Necroman]

If you jack open the Replay case, remove the harddrive and plug it into your computer, you can get the stuff off of there. I believe there is even a project on SourceForge having to do with this (for read its harddrive I believe).

Also in reponse to people who say to go use MtyhTV, you need like a 1GHz processor to do MPEG encoding in realtime... and it eats up most all the cpu, so dont expect to be using the computer for much else while it is recording.

And in other news, how about free PVR software for us Windows users out there, I can't really find anything decent for windows that is free... any ideas?

Re:You can get video from Replay

[nilepoc]

Or, don't void your warrantee, and use the ethernet connection, DvArchive, and get all the content off of the box. Then when you want it later, stream it back to the Replay.

Wrong - Commercial Advance, not 30sec skip

[xenoc_1]

The feature D&M is considering dropping from Replay is Commercial Advance. That is an *automatic* playback skipover everything that the Replay thinks is a commercial.

The 30second skip feature is not being dropped.

Keeping 30-second skip

[crow]

First, the features that D&M is talking of dropping are for future models, possibly to allow for differences between low-end and high-end models.

Second, the 30-second skip is not one of the features in question. That was a misunderstanding by the /. editors when posting the previous story. They were talking about Commericial Advance, which is the feature whereby the unit detects commercial breaks and automatically skips over them for you without pressing any buttons. (That's also one of two features, along with show sharing, that SonicBlue is being sued over--I haven't heard if the lawsuit was transferred as part of the sale.)

Oh, and ReplayTV also has a x-minute skip available--just hit a number followed by the skip (or instant replay) to skip that many minutes. I've programmed my remote with this sequence so that I have a 2-minute skip button--I use that, and then fine tune it with the 30-second skip and the 8-second instant replay buttons. (I'm beginning to think that 3-minute skip may be better.)

Here's a quick conclusion

[Anonymous Coward]

Replay = almost bankrupt, turning off useful features
TiVo = Series 1 great, Series 2 a pigfisters delight

Both are bollocks, roll your own

Current Deals for Tivo and ReplayTV

[xTK-421x]

An 80 hour (refurb) Tivo Series 2 for $250

A 40 hour Replay5040 (refurb) WITH Lifetime Subscription for $330

Share and enjoy.. I prefer Tivo for its UI, however the sharing/extraction of the Replay is very nice as well.

Closed captioning?

[Eccles]

Do TiVo, ReplayTV, or even computer PVRs support closed captioning or open captioning? My wife is hearing-impaired, so that would be a good thing. Or if there are computer formats that support captioning/subtitling, perhaps the captions could be merged into the video file?

Re:Closed captioning?

[lorian69]

I know TiVo supports it. I use it all the time if I can't understand what someone just said... rewind a few seconds, turn on CC, and there it is.

Re:Closed captioning?

[xTK-421x]

The Tivo and Replay both support the passing through of the closed caption signal. The compression of the video doesn't affect CC.

However, if you are asking do the boxes themselves actually have the ability to generate CC subtitles, Replay does not. The Tivo Series 1 machines can *if* you have the ability and time to go through installing a separate add on program from here:

TivoVBI

Re:Closed captioning?

[duplicate-nickname]

Damn....that's a good idea. There's been a few times where my wife and I have been watching something and we both can't figure out what someone just said. I trying skipping back with the Replay and still can't make it out. Next time I'll try turning on CC. lol

Re:Closed captioning?

[Eccles]

What boggles me is that no one I know of has come out with a good captioner. They all do that white or colored text over a solid black background square for each character, including the blanks, which blocks so much of the picture. Do a font with just a black outline around the letters and it would be so much nicer. If regs require the current mode, have the other mode as an option. I'd pay good money for such a captioning system built into my next TV.

You know what I'd like???

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like it if the MythTV site was actually updated once in a while!!!

Okay, that's a little harsh, but I check the site like twice a day and they update like once a month. You do the math on my frustration level.

MythTV looks ubercool, but the thing that is holding it back is the fact that it only works with the old 8bit TV capture cards based on the Brooktree chipset. The newer 10bit tv capture cards based on the contextant chipset give much better capture quality, but right now the Linux drivers are in like pre-Alpha stage.

Luckily Gerd Knorr is working on creating drivers. Info on his project can be found on his website iat http://bytesex.org/cx88/

MythTV really seems to me to be one of the Ultimate open-source projects. It involves having a dedicated PC (which means geeks everyewhere have another excuse to build another cpu), it's a PVR (and you know how much geeks love PVRs), and it involves getting out of paying subscription fees (what geek doesn't love getting stuff for free?)!

I just realized that I have no idea if MythTV is open-source. Go figure. It's still super cool. Now, if Freevo would get their PVR stuff working, then I'd give a damn about their project.

Re:You know what I'd like???

[zapp]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure mythtv (and any other tv viewing/capturing tool out there) can support ANY video input the kernel can provide. the older bt cards work because the v4l system works.

I have had many frustrations with the v4l project and related tools (lack of documentation!), but finally got it to work with my card. yey! :)

80211B

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm waiting for Tivo to come bundled with 802.11b

Re:80211B

[BadluckShleprock]

The 5000 series ReplayTV has USB ports that will allow you to hook a USB wi-fi adapter to it. 4000 series RTVs have Ethernet, and you can buy an Ethernet to wi-fi adapter. TiVos have/will have USB too for wi-fi also.

Re:80211B

[Scyber]

While they have USB ports, the software has not been developed yet to support usb wifi adaptors. Currently the only option is to use wireless bridges. Note that even using 802.11b some users have reported problems streaming shows from one unit to another (more so on medium and high quality than low). The bandwidth just isn't there.

Anyone know how to convert .nuv files? (mythtv)

[zapp]

This may be the wrong place to ask, but I swear... in my mind, it is on topic! (the poster mentions exporting recordings as a feature of mythtv, i'm just asking how).

I set up mythtv lastnight. works great... except a few problems (complete system lock up when recording after about 1min)

The one thing (asside from the crash) that I can't seem to get to work, is exporting the .nuv files to divx or mpeg. I am aware of the nuv2divx tool, and have been trying to compile it... but it just won't work.

Has anyone actually successfully converted their .nuv files to something viewable on windows?

Yes, mplayer can play nuv files, but I want to have a closet media server, and view recordings remotely, which means windows. and no, I'm not installing mplayer everywhere... I want a *standard format*.

Re:Anyone know how to convert .nuv files? (mythtv)

[Anonymous Coward]

I set up mythtv lastnight. works great... except a few problems (complete system lock up when recording after about 1min)

I set up MythTV, and it's awesome...except when you use it.

Re:Anyone know how to convert .nuv files? (mythtv)

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the mythmkmovie script can do this. The author is working on a MythTransfer module as a MythTV interface to this backend.

http://www.icelus.org/mythmkmovie-0.7.tar.bz2

Re:An issue with Replay

[nilepoc]

As the other posts have mentioned, D & M have purchased ReplayTV.

What has not been mentioned to this point, is that Replay allows streaming, without hacks, you can archive the mpeg2 that comes out of it. You can serve those mpegs off of your computer, linux, os X, Windows to any 4000 series and up machine int he house, and you can stream to your computer if you wish. You can burn those same files to DVD and make playable DVD's out of them.

D&M has also done great things, such as getting out the OS update, rapidly, invloving users on a wide scale in Beta testing, and maintaining a presence on one of the major chat boards revolving around replaytv use. they also (from what I can tell) involved the producers of DVarchive in the beta process, so that there was a patch for DVarchive to interoperate with the new 5.0 firmware before it was in general release.

I am more confident in replayTV's longevity than I am TiVO's, even with the new retail aliance with Apple (stocking TiVO in their retail stores), and I am a mac user.

Oh no, more TiVo troll-bait

[dgenr8]

It's almost useless to mention fre alternatives to TiVo / Replay on /. Take a look at this thread... I have never seen this level of trolling and anti-OSS rhetoric, except possibly from Microsoft. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

Re:DirecTivo does not have these features! -- YET

[McSpew]

DirecTV-integrated TiVos are not TiVos in the same way that standalone TiVos are. DirecTV took over all management of the DirecTiVo models, including software rollouts. It may even be that DirecTV has its own programmers maintaining the DirecTiVo code. At any rate, they're responsible for deciding what features to rollout and when.

Currently, DirecTV hasn't committed to offering the 4.0 software or the HMO feature set on their TiVos, but they're paying attention to the success or failure of TiVo's HMO rollout and they'll decide what to do based on HMO's popularity with owners of standalone Series 2 models.

If HMO is a hit, you'll see it on DirecTiVo models. If it's not, you won't. It's that simple.

DirecTiVo as low as $199 / Standalone from $249...

[SlashChick]

I just thought I should point out that most of the people who are quoting you $400 for a TiVo unit are quoting you the retail price for a standalone TiVo. Now what savvy Slashdot shopper actually pays retail? :P

The HDVR2 DirecTiVo is $199 if you're a current DirecTV subscriber. Just call DirecTV at 1-800-DIRECTV and request it. That's $199 installed, I might add.

If you're not a current DirecTV subscriber, you can get an HDVR2, a dual LNB dish, and have the whole damn thing installed for $219. Check American Satellite for more.

If you want to stick with digital cable (bleh, why?!) and wish for a standalone TiVo, all you have to do is go to TiVo.com and click on the Buy TiVo link. There you'll see 80GB TiVos for $249. (Note that the DirecTV TiVos can record more programs on an 80GB drive than the standalone TiVos set at Best quality, so don't let that affect your buying decision.)

Finally, if you're interested in video extraction, you can hack the TiVo. If you're not interested in hacking your TiVo, just do what I did: I set up an ATI All-In-Wonder card and hooked it up to the second input of my TiVo. I then used the "Save to VCR" function to archive shows. With a CD burner, I can burn to VCD... if you have a DVD burner, you can burn direct to DVD. "Save to VCR" comes with your TiVo, works well, and doesn't require hacking your TiVo. It makes archiving video a cinch.

When it's all said and done, you could buy two standalone TiVos for less than what you're paying, or opt for the DirecTV option and pay LESS for a TiVo, installation, and 6-8 months of DirecTV service... and you don't have to do any more work other than clicking a couple buttons on American Satellite's website. When you look at it this way, building your own doesn't make much sense!

Mandatory Subscription

[blogeasy]

The Tivo and ReplayTV are good products but subscriptions should not be required. Currently, surveillance DVRs are going for less than $400 and they allow recording of multiple channels with no subscription necessary. Ultimately, DVRs will be everywhere and they will be a very cheap commodity like the current 4-head VCRs. I wouldn't be surprised to see them embedded in your TV.

What a coinky-dink

[mpath]

ReplayTV is selling refurbished 5040 units for $330 + shipping ($12 for ground/standard), which includes a lifetime service subscription.

United DVD HDV4080

[bbn]

I just saw an ad for a device named "United DVD HDV4080". This is supposely a DVD player with a 40 GB harddisk so it can record TV shows and do the live timeshifting thing etc.

Do anyone know this device, and can tell if it is any good or how it compares to TiVo or Replay TV? Can you upgrade the harddisk or somehow get the recorded shows out of it for long time storage?

Re:United DVD HDV4080

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo has licensed the technology to several commercial electronic vendors. You should expect to see Tivo enabled DVD Writers from several manufacturers for this Xmas season.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article. as p?Symbol=US:TIVO&Feed=RTR&Date=20030508&ID=2533486

The yellow face...

[Cpt_Kirks]

...it burns!

I hate the big blue room. Bugs, heat, humidity, dirt, bikinis...well, hate may be too strong a word.

Re:An issue with Replay

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy with confidence.

Yes sir, corporate shill sir!

Re:DirecTiVo as low as $199 / Standalone from $249

[eyver]

When it's all said and done, you could buy two standalone TiVos for less than what you're paying, or opt for the DirecTV option and pay LESS for a TiVo, installation, and 6-8 months of DirecTV service... and you don't have to do any more work other than clicking a couple buttons on American Satellite's website. When you look at it this way, building your own doesn't make much sense!

Throw a lifetime subscription on top of the $249 TiVO you mentioned and you have $549. Use a regular monthly charge for someone like me who has standard cable, and after two years, it's more than $549.

If I had an interest in DirecTV, though, trust me, I would've had a TiVO long, long ago.

I Built a MyhtTV box and I am starting to write...

[MrJerryNormandinSir]

MythTV rocks. For those of you that don't get it, youc an watch what you want, when you want, without commercial interruptions. I am working on code that
will dump a show to DVD or SVCD.

I recorded the SciFi channels Startrek Marathon
that was broadcasted on Memorial Day. Hopefully I'll
start collect episodes of the Simpsons and Futurama.
with all the damn reality shows on I'd rather watch my collection when I watch TV.

And for those of us that program into the night on Open Source projects it is nice to kick back when you are done at 3:30AM and watch someting decent instead of a Infomercial.

Explain to me why I want to "roll my own"

[HarveyBirdman]

I'm serious, and not trying to pick on people, but I can't quite see my way to bothering.

I used to have a Replay (Panasonic Showstopper), but bought a Tivo when I went to DirecTV because my local cable provider finally annoyed me enough. I picked up a combined "DirecTivo" unit.

For $199 I got free installation with dish (and they did a great job) and a dual tuner unit (Hughes HDVR2). The HDVR2 records the original data stream from the satellite (IOW, no digital-analog-digital generation loss) so the recorded shows look as good as watching live. My local channels come in over the dish now, and show up in the proper channel slots (2, 4, 5, 7, etc.) instead of up in the 600s or 700s. Satellite, local, and pay per view are all integrated into a slick package.

Cost in time: none. I'm able to log into work from home over a VPN, so I just worked at home the days of installation. Yeah, my cable company still gets me for Internet, but they achieved fiber optics at the curb in my area and reasonably priced megabit access, so that's OK.

The monthly charge for the Tivo service is only $6 through DirecTV for some reason. Honestly, if I have to worry about a $6 a month charge, I have greater concerns that watching television more efficiently.

I read accounts of the roll your own approach, and it just seems like endless hours of annoyance. I like to program and mess about with my computers (I have Macs, PCs and Linux boxen), but I really can't see the point to re-inventing the wheel in this case. They do seem to be getting a little more plug and play, but still... the claims of "it's free this way" completely ignores the value of a person's time.

As for the comparison, I liked the Replay a lot. It was my first DVR, and I had a definite "how did I live without this" reaction. However, I like the Tivo more for three reasons: "to do" list, better conflict resolution, and better search functions.

I like the direct recording of the original data stream, but Replay could just as easily do that in a combo unit, I imagine. I don't care about sending stuff to the computer, so I can't speak to that. Ultimately, it's just TV... that's why I like the DVRs in the first place- they make my TV time much more efficient (and shorter). If I just HAVE to have a copy of a movie, DVDs are cheap.

Re:Explain to me why I want to "roll my own"

[GrayCalx]

Ok I'll try to answer, and I'm not "picking" either.

I have Dish Network and I use their PVR because 1. It was free. 2. No monthly fee. 3. It was free. Why did you go with DirecTV over Dish?

Now, why I built my own was for fun. I had tons of computer parts lying around, and I wanted to see how these worked. I installed FreeVo and MythTV on a Linux box, then took it apart and built it as a windows box running MyHTPC which I like a lot better.

I think some people are into doing things themselves, and if they have the parts/money then why not try it? Worst case they'll go out and buy a tivo if they don't like it. Others are fine with just using the pre-packaged stuff.

I still use my DishPVR because of simplicity, but I use my MediaPC for file storage, image display, DiVX movies, jukebox mp3s, and internet radio.

Re:Explain to me why I want to "roll my own"

[HarveyBirdman]

Why did you go with DirecTV over Dish?

Pretty simple. Everyone I know with DBS has DirecTV, and they were all happy with it. I researched Dish, but didn't find anything significantly different to justify going with them.

I think some people are into doing things themselves, and if they have the parts/money then why not try it?

Oh, that's fine. I've no problem with that. I just don't understand those that will disparage me because I chose to buy the Tivo and do something else in my computer hobby.

Re:DirecTiVo as low as $199 / Standalone from $249

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering the TiVo monthly fee for a DirecTiVo is only $4.95, and the hardware is at least $50 cheaper, I would say that's definitely your best bet... not to mention that you can get a great package and all the local channels for about half what you would pay with cable.

Try the GPL version...

[ryanvm]

You should try the new GPL'd clone of TiVo called GnuVo. It's pretty nice, except it won't let you watch any shows about capitalism.

Its no use

[Anonymous Coward]

" At the high or best settings, you'd be hard pressed to pick out a digital cable signal from a tivo recorded digital cable signal."

This is coming from someone who think 128kb AAC files "sound just like the original CD's".

Blech.

Re:An issue with Replay

[thoth]

Yes and no... it all depends on how much functionality is left if the service isn't there.

I own a TiVo and for me, the important features are time shifting and large recording space. Not having to juggle a bunch of tapes is great, being able to watch a show while it is being recorded is nice (e.g. you get home 10 minutes late, with TiVo you can start watching, with tapes you have to wait until recording is finished if you want to watch from the start).

So as long as you can program the thing like a VCR, it is still useful. Sure, service means programming guides and on screen info, but I don't really need that stuff.

As a side note, I mentioned before my TiVo 2 is defective and I've cancelled my service. As an experiment, I tried using it like a VCR and it was fine... until I hit the 30 day mark. TiVo 2 has stopped all functionality except playing back previously recorded shows. So, I need to send it in for repairs and pick up the service again or it is as useful as a doorstop. I missed this tidbit in the service agreement... Anyway, I think TiVo has stated if they go under they will release a software patch that allows TiVo's to function without the service.

25 or 1000 hours of storage?

[peter303]

Basically we use VCRs/DVRs to time-shift broadcast TV to more convenient times. That means from busy times of the week to less busy times of the same week. I'd rarely shift more than a week's worth, except on vacation. So thats where I come up with the first 25 hour number.

The 1000 hour number is for archival storage of favorite movies or TV series. I doubt I'd ever re-watch more than 1000 hours of anything in my lifetime.

Re:This just goes to show all of you...

[Trolling4Dollars]

Well said. Just to reiterate what the parent said:

open source will ALWAYS provide much better alternatives to
closed systems like Tivo and Replay. Seriously... it's 2003 for god
sakes! Replay sounds like something dreamed up by a 50s ad exec trying
to get you to buy a new color TV even though your black and white set is
dtill perfectly useable. In this day and age, old style television
should be phasing out and giving way to a networkable solution with more
end user control, not less. Users should be able to copy, alter, and
share their programming as they see fit. There should not be any more
commercials. Don't these companies get enough money from the products
that we are beholden to purchase just for survival? Is there really a
need for them to market more crap at us that we don't need? Who NEEDS
an SUV if you are living in a city where the worst weather is 3-4 inches
of snow and you live 15 minutes from work? Who needs to "own your own
business: internet kiosks. The way to wealth!"??? Why not just work
like the rest of us? There are ways to get rich quick, but they tend to
be either dishonest, unethical or at best a one shot deal that only
works for the first person who tries it. Instead, pick an open source
project, work on it and you will have made a much more valuable
contribution to the world than you would if you only think of yourself
and your own wealth. Wealth is a lie. Especially in the United State.
For all you repugnicans, get to a shelter and look those people in the
face. Tell them, "You can be anything you want, you just have to work
for it like I did". Tell them about the silver spoon you were born with
and see how much water your story holds. IF you are one of the VERY few
who actually crawled out from a situation where you started off making
$5000 a year and are now earning a six figure salary, then you are
exempted from this excercise. I will bet that makes up about .05% of
you.

Very Interesting...

[gfxguy]

Interesting! Follow the link and see todays press release... If you buy one of shuttle's mini systems (the perfect choice for a homemade PVR) you can get the software for free...

If you recently purchased one of these, you are supposed to be able to download the software from shuttle's site.

Re:An issue with Replay

[Krelnik]

I am more confident in replayTV's longevity

I can echo this. Sitting on the floor of my office right this second is a Replay 4160 that I just received today back from Replay support when the hard drive in my unit crashed last week. So I can verify that customer support & RMA functions of Replay are up and running just fine.

Worry not about the bankruptcy, it appears ReplayTV is very much a going concern.

Tivo Quality

[Anonymous Coward]

I loved my tivo when it worked (i had original). But about a year after I got it the internal, built-in modem busted so I can no longer dial in to get the tv listing information. Without that information Tivo is all but useless. It won't record for longer than 30 minutes, and it can't cross half hour blocks (e.g. - only 8-8:30, not 8:15-8:45), the time has skewed and you can't change it youself (requires dialing in) so even recording a 30 minute show is pointless since I always miss the ending. I can't schedule it to start recording at any certain time - I can only record immediately. Basically it's completely useless. Sure I can pause, and that's nice, but you should at least get the same functionality as a VCR without having to have the subscription.

All I can say is thank god I didn't pay $200 for the lifetime subscription since I only got about 9 months worth of service from it.

Re:Tivo Quality

[Le Marteau]

Modem problems with the early TiVos were common. Do a little net search, you can find plenty of shops that will put a new modem in a TiVo for about $90.

Rolling your own

[Cpt_Kirks]

I recently completed my "ToolBox PC" with a m1000 mini-itx board (1GHZ CPU, TV out, etc.) built into a small toolbox. I included an ATI TV Wonder VE card for PVR functionality.

So far it works great. The MB, PS, DVD and HDD all fit in the bottom. The tray at the top holds an IR mouse/KB and cables when I go portable.

I can play games on it (as long as they don't require monster level 3D), watch movies, etc.

The ATI card has it's own full function TV guide. It lacks "pause live TV" and commercial skip, and doesn't support Linux (Win2000 though), but hell, I only paid $9.00 for it (rebate + special price reduction + 15% off).

Re:Rolling your own

[Anonymous Coward]

A 1GHZ cpu isn't fast enough for high-quality encoding. Especially not a budget 1GHZ cpu like VIA makes.

Tivo's video quality is very good. It buffers live TV all the time so that you are always watching Tivo's MPEG2 output. It looks so good that you don't notice there is compression going on.

This allows the pause live TV and rewind live TV features, which is about 50% of the value of the Tivo.

The $20 tuner card solution works well for basic low-quality recording of shows but it just can't compete with Tivo for quality and utility.

Re:Rolling your own

[Cpt_Kirks]

Really, have you used a TV Wonder VE? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

I have played with a Tivo. I know how the recordings look.

The ATI card has a hardware MPEG2 encoder on board. It will produce video every bit as good as the broadcast it is recorded from. Who cares if a Tivo will record at DVD quality, if the source is broadcast or cable?

Since the encoding is done on the tuner card, 1GHZ is more than enough. All the recordings I have done are quite good. Picture is clear, movement is fluid, no noticable pixelation and the sound is crisp and in syc. The m1000 has a hardware MPEG2 decoder on the MB, so I have encoding and decoding being done in hardware.

Do not make the mistake of assuming low cost is low quality.

Re:DirecTiVo as low as $199 / Standalone from $249

[Anonymous Coward]

it's the "all the local channels" bit that keeps me off DirecTV--out here in the hinterlands, you get no local channels, and something like a $5 credit instead.

No network feeds, unless you want to set up a nasty switcher between the satelite and either cable ($$) or rabbit ears (sucko)

ReplayTV Benefits

[BigNumber]

I recently did a lot of research on this topic. Both have good points and bad points. Tivo looks like it'll win as the standard considering that the company that makes ReplayTV (Sonic Blue) just filed for bankruptcy. The bad part about Tivo is that it absolutely will not function without the guide service that you pay them for. ReplayTV will work without the service but it functions more like a vcr that way (but with all of the nice things about digital like no rewinding, etc.).

The other main function I wanted was the ability to copy the shows to my computer, edit out the commercials, and burn to dvd. Here the ReplayTV blows the Tivo away. First of all, it supports this out of the box with a freely available piece of hacker software that you run from your PC. Tivo requires you to hack the software inside the Tivo which can be re-hacked by the Tivo software downloads anytime the company feels like making a change. Second, ReplayTV captures the audio and video at the right resolution and sampling rate for DVD. With the Tivo, you'd have to convert it after downloading it. Video conversion is very time consuming and really a pain in the ass.

After weighing all the pros and cons, I decided to go with the ReplayTV. If the company that bought up Sonic Blue's assets discontinues the guide service, I can still use it. All of the downloading pluses outweigh the instability factor.

Re:ReplayTV Benefits

[tfoss]

The bad part about Tivo is that it absolutely will not function without the guide service that you pay them for.

Bzzz, wrong. Tivo works just fine without the service, albeit as little more than a vcr. You can program it to record by day/time just like a vcr, and it will still pause, FF, etc.

-Ted

Re:ReplayTV Benefits

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, ReplayTV now is owned by the same company that owns the Denon and Marantz brands, as well as the Escient Fireball, OpenGlobe, and other stuff as well.

keep up!

Try a combo PVR/DVD recorder

[Uteck]

I am activly shopping around for a PVR, Tivo is my first choice because it is cheep and easy to install. Freevo and Myth look intresting, but since I would have to buy a new pc for it, it is not a cost efficant solution.
But Panisonic has a DVD/PVR that has a 80 GB hard drive and can burn DVD-R(4.7GB) and DVD-RAM(12GB). Yes it can burn from the hard drive, or burn directly to DVD. It is still a bit pricie, at $800 for the low end, but Circuit City messed up their web page and is listing it for $499. I am going over tonight and see if I can get their price match on it :)

ReplayTV picture quality

[fendel]

Unless they've added more in recent models (I have an old 3030), ReplayTV has three settings:

High: Live TV is buffered at this quality. It looks great but takes a lot of space. If you're watching something live and hit Record (and select the default Standard quality), you can immediately see the drop in quality.

Medium: Very good quality, to my eyes. Again, takes space. I routinely record one show on Medium to save to tape and take to a friend's house. I figure with VHS I better start with a decent-quality source...

Standard: Artifacts occasionally visible, especially in animation or in scenes with running water. Still, I record most stuff on Standard unless I plan to watch it with other people.

FWIW, I have analog cable (didn't want to bother with the IR blaster) and a 27" standard-definition TV. I've heard that regular cable looks lousy on HDTVs and I suspect PVRs would worsen that problem on the lower quality settings. (As intrigued by HDTV as I am, I'm holding off because there's not yet an HDTV-capable PVR, and I'd rather watch what I want when I want at lower resolution than be tied to broadcast schedules.)

As for comparing to DivX, VCD, etc... quality for those formats varies widely--too many variables (bitrate, quality of source material, encoder settings). I guess ANY of this stuff, including TV with or without a PVR, looks so crummy compared to DVDs that I don't worry much about picture quality. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being DVD, I'd say my analog cable is about a 5; standard-quality Replay is maybe a 4. Cat barf would be a 1. Bottom line is, it's good enough until high-def PVRs become available and affordable.

TiVo MPlayer

[ChaezeWhiz]

Stream ty streams directly from your tivo to windows/linux/osx.

Works with MythTV and will probably be included in future XBMP releases.

TiVo MPlayer

ReplayTV including activation for $329

[jimmcq]

SonicBlue is selling the ReplayTV 5040 (including Lifetime activation) for only $329

This is an incredible deal, especially since the price of the activation alone will be $299 on June 1st. The only catch is that it is refurbished, but it still comes with a 90 day warranty.

This is a limited time/quantity offer, so I'm guessing that it won't be available much longer.

More info in the AV Science Forum

A GREAT detailed explanation SCO/Linux issue

[zoid.com]

This Page offers the absolute best explanation about what is going on in the SCO vs. Linux issue. A definate must read!

The funny thing about a PVR

[Casca]

Something interesting about PVRs, is that they do more than let you record a show and watch it later. Much much more, and the entertainment industry should be worried.

I picked up a ReplayTV a couple of years ago, and I watch everything through it now, only I'm not watching much of anything these days. I used to be one of those people that was tied to the couch at certain times of the day/days of the week to catch the latest episode of whatever show. Now I just record them so I can watch them whenever I want, whenever its more convenient to do so. The funny thing is, lots of stuff goes unwatched now, and I don't miss it at all. I have picked up this mentality that its there if I want to watch it later, but right now I'd rather go do blah. I'm doing a lot more blah these days, and a lot less couch sitting. I wonder how many other people are feeling this effect?

Re:The funny thing about a PVR

[HarveyBirdman]

I wonder how many other people are feeling this effect?

I had a slightly opposite reaction. I'm watching a little more because I find more movies to watch with Tivo's search functions (and I never had the premium channels before), but I'm not spending all that much more time watching. In fact, I think I'm spending a little less.

The 30 second skip is the key here (Tivo has it, but you need to activate it via a secret code). Not only do I skip through commercials very quickly, but I've started skipping what I call "filler segments" in movies and television shows. An example would be extended shots of a car driving as the characters go from one location to another, or "music video" sections of movies that add nothing to the overall plot or any scene with Adam Sandler. If I record a news analysis show or one of the Sunday morning gabfests, I can skip to topics I find interesting.

Re:The funny thing about a PVR

[GrayCalx]

I find myself pausing it when an uncomfortable moment came on so i could laugh into my cusion before hitting play again...

Am I the only one who gets embarrassed when some idiot makes a mockery of himself on tv?

digital cable

[Zed2K]

And still if you have digital cable you still will run into problems because the cable box does the decoding while the tivo does the recording. It is a far from convenient solution for the majority of the population who have cable and cable boxes. If tivo would just license their software to motorola, scientific atlanta and the other cable box makers they would see a HUGE increase in tivo users.

I've got a scientific atlanta DVR cable box now and it doesn't even come close to the abilities and stability of a tivo box.

Oy...

[skintigh2]

Tivo: $250
Permission to use Tivo: $250/life-of-machine or $13/mo
Tivo network hardware: $50
Permission to use Tivo network hardware: $100
Cost to restart all that if the Tivo breaks: $600
Building your own: priceless.

Okay, that is overdone, but I was really considering getting a Tivo until I read about all those additional charges. It would actually be cheaper to build one, and the frustration of doing so would be offset by MythTV's ability to act as a front end for all my emulators and play content I find on the net and even download the weather.

Replay Rebates Honored by D/M

[joel8x]

I know its slightly OT, but I bought my Replay in February, and it came with 2 $50 rebates that I had never received. I was ready to accept that I was never going to see my money after the bankruptcy, but then I received a letter from D/M last week telling me that they are honoring my rebates!

The moral of the story is that ReplayTV is in good hands. I cannot stress how good TV is when you have the power to cut out the fat from it!

Why not just try 'em?

[jbarr]

Still...I'd much rather use something like FreeVo or MythTV and actually burn my shows to cd, stream whatever I want, etc, etc."

For some reason, this tends to be the mantra on /., but both TiVo and ReplayTV have 30 day money-back satisfaction guarantees, so why not try 'em out in your home and see if you like the quality and function? If you don't like one or the other, just return 'em.

Re:An issue with Replay

[Anonymous Coward]

Furthermore, the CEO of D&M bought himself a ReplayTV unit last year, long before the acquisition and he claims that the epiphany he had upon using the Replay was one of the reasons that he was so keen to buy the company when sonic blue went down the tubes.

Re:Reg free link:

[Anonymous Coward]

Woah, a window.open() call in the onLoad of an img tag? That is not cool! Gotta patch Mozilla to stop them from doing that!

SageTV beats 'em all.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hard to understand why SageTV always gets left out. Anyone using it knows it can't be touched.

http://www.freytechnologies.com

Multiple tuner capability (watch live or timeshifted TV while recording multiple shows), intelligent recording (built in AI routines watch what you watch and automatically records for you what you like), FREE EPG DATA, etc.

I can't imagine Tivo or ReplyTV (or MythTV for that matter) do what this software does.

A correction to the article

[HTH NE1]

With TiVo's new networking feature, you must wait several minutes as the show is copied onto the second unit, where it will remain as a duplicate. You lose instant gratification, but gain the freedom to offload recordings from one TiVo to another when the first one's hard drive is getting full. This isn't entirely accurate. While the ceiling of the bitrate for Best Quality recordings on a TiVo is higher than that of the USB 1.1 ethernet adapter, recordings at other qualities can be watched as they transfer on the receiving TiVo without delays on a clear 100 Mb/s LAN. And even at Best Quality, my experience has shown that some shows can still be watched as they transfer without delays, depending on how much motion is in them. Series2 hardware running 4.0 (which enables this Home Media Option) apparently do some basic Variable Bit Rate (VBR) encoding. I had no problems watching the original Night of the Living Dead while it was transferring. Though TiVo hasn't said that 4.0 enables VBR on Series2, my experience with that transfer and being able to store many more hours of G4's Portal at Best Quality (very low motion for the majority of that show) than my TiVo's capacity reports, indicates that some VBR encoding is going on.

Re:A correction to the article

[HTH NE1]

And now, in readable form. (Just changed my default to Plain Old Text from HTML Formatted. Sorry, I'm new.)

With TiVo's new networking feature, you must wait several minutes as the show is copied onto the second unit, where it will remain as a duplicate. You lose instant gratification, but gain the freedom to offload recordings from one TiVo to another when the first one's hard drive is getting full.

This isn't entirely accurate. While the ceiling of the bitrate for Best Quality recordings on a TiVo is higher than that of the USB 1.1 ethernet adapter, recordings at other qualities can be watched as they transfer on the receiving TiVo without delays on a clear 100 Mb/s LAN.

And even at Best Quality, my experience has shown that some shows can still be watched as they transfer without delays, depending on how much motion is in them. Series2 hardware running 4.0 (which enables this Home Media Option) apparently do some basic Variable Bit Rate (VBR) encoding. I had no problems watching the original Night of the Living Dead while it was transferring.

Though TiVo hasn't said that 4.0 enables VBR on Series2, my experience with that transfer and being able to store many more hours of G4's Portal at Best Quality (very low motion for the majority of that show) than my TiVo's capacity reports, indicates that some VBR encoding is going on.

There are *always* artifacts.

[slumos]

Digital cable/DSS is just MPEG, so you'll see artifacts regardless. At least here, you can see artifacts even on analog cable because the cable company receives their data digitally too.

's cos he's a fuckwit.

[Moderation abuser]

Not only hasn't he tried FreeVo or MythTV, but he obviously hasn't tried anything which actually works like Tivo or ReplayTV.

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

ReplayTV is cheaper than TiVo

[Trixter]

I'm surprised that people haven't mentioned this by now, but you can get a refurbished 40-hour ReplayTV unit WITH lifetime activation for $329 if you go to www.sonicblue.com. That's like paying $80 for a unit and then $250 for the lifetime activation.

Show me a PC you can build yourself for $330 that does everything a ReplayTV does and I'll eat my hat. Keep in mind that a ReplayTV has a very good MPEG-2 hardware encoder/decoder (I've analyzed the bitstreams myself, it's a very competent VBR encoder) that would normally cost you $199 alone to buy in a card (WinPVR from Hauppauge).

watching tv, fun?

[Anonymous Coward]

where's the fun in that?

If you were part of it...

[Anonymous Coward]

why didn't you make these changes...

Re:Reg free link:

[Sylver Dragon]

Hmm, do you have an older version, I went to the site and didn't get the pop-up at all. I did see the bit in the page source you are refering to, but it didn't affect me at all.

Why not just get a Tivo/Replay TV?

[disc0rdian]

Maybe because not all of /. readers live in the US/Canada so the rest of us are forced to brew our own PVR Setup. Speaking of which, anyone know any plans for a PVR in Australia?

dvd technology

[youknowit]

i heard of the latest dvd technology. disposbale dvds. you get a movie, open/play it and have a couple days before it erases. bye bye late fees.

Re:dvd technology

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is your obsession with disposable DVDs? GET OVER IT FUCKTARD!

Re:dvd technology

[youknowit]

sorry. just trying to find out more about it. thought this would be a good place.

getting it on a cd/dvd

[drinkable_person]

Yes you can hack the Tivo to give it lots of new attributes like sending stuff to you pc but supposedly the new replays have the option built in that's why they got sewed

Of course it's "unsupported", their $$$ is in TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

DirecTV doesn't care about Replay because they don't make any money on selling them.

I like Replay because I can not only record from my DirecTV receiver AND my local cable/antenna, but it also integrates the guides from both services into one single guide and switches inputs depending on what channel I choose automatically.

An Explanation Even An Idiot Can Understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Because TiVo records EVERYTHING you do. EVERYTHING. Somewhere, somehow, the endless intrusion and archiving of our lives MUST STOP. The government/multi-national conglomerate has you cataloged 5 ways to Sunday. The "If you're not doing anything wrong you shouldn't mind" attitude is what is losing us all the fredoms someone (obviously neither you nor I) shed blood for. Even up here in the "Live Free or Die" state the cops are forced to conduct roadblocks and peer into every car under the guise of "seat belt enforcement" Of course it's OK, it's "for the children". If that's not enough reason to reject even the concept of considering TiVo, you deserve the compartmentalized, regimented, programmed, bought and sold little life you live. Freedom, privacy, and self-respect are lost in little bits, and that is also how they are taken back.

Re:An Explanation Even An Idiot Can Understand

[HarveyBirdman]

Why? Because TiVo records EVERYTHING you do. EVERYTHING. Somewhere, somehow, the endless intrusion and archiving of our lives MUST STOP.

On a service where I agreed to sign up. and the data is not correlated by name. It's aggregate. I'll never understand this sort of paranoia.

Look, I liked Firefly. It was the #1 Season Pass on Tivo. If the networks would look at Tivo data as well as the outdated Neilsen system, and a few good shows survive as a reasult, then please record my viewing.

The government/multi-national conglomerate has you cataloged 5 ways to Sunday. The "If you're not doing anything wrong you shouldn't mind" attitude is what is losing us all the fredoms someone (obviously neither you nor I) shed blood for. Even up here in the "Live Free or Die" state the cops are forced to conduct roadblocks and peer into every car under the guise of "seat belt enforcement" Of course it's OK, it's "for the children".

This has nothing to do with Tivo. It's a non sequitur shackled to a strawman.

If that's not enough reason to reject even the concept of considering TiVo, you deserve the compartmentalized, regimented, programmed, bought and sold little life you live. Freedom, privacy, and self-respect are lost in little bits, and that is also how they are taken back.

Do you even realize that *you* are about 5 times scarier than anything you mentioned? You're an ideologue, dude. You lump everything together into one, vast boogeyman. Seat-belt searches and Tivo? Huh? Does that comparison actually make sense in your mind?

I'd offer some suggestions to help, but as far as I have ever been able to observe, ideology is a terminal illness. No one ever recovers. Sorry.

Re:An Explanation Even An Idiot Can Understand

[Anonymous Coward]

On a service where I agreed to sign up.

You agreed to sign up for the guide.

and the data is not correlated by name. It's aggregate.

How do you think you get those "recommendations"? Brain waves? You're being recoded. And by name. Make no mistake.

Re:An Explanation Even An Idiot Can Understand

[HarveyBirdman]

You agreed to sign up for the guide.

Tivo's data recording was well publicized.

How do you think you get those "recommendations"? Brain waves? You're being recoded. And by name. Make no mistake.

You realize there's a computer IN the Tivo, right?

Look, I'm as concerned about the way things are heading in this world as anyone, but I refuse to decend into the world of black helicopters, Ryder Truck bombs and mystical trans-national agencies with a perpetual hard-on to know what Joe Nobody in Who Cares, New Hampshire is watching on Teevee tonight.

MPEG encoding

[slim]

Also in reponse to people who say to go use MtyhTV, you need like a 1GHz processor to do MPEG encoding in realtime... and it eats up most all the cpu, so dont expect to be using the computer for much else while it is recording.

This is true, but the answer is not "don't use MythTV", but "don't use your CPU for MPEG encoding". There are dedicated chipsets for encoding/decoding MPEG2, and you can get them as PCI boards.

Better still, in areas with digital TV, us DTVB card to capture raw MPEG streams direct from the air to your HDD (and in some cases, use the same card to decode MPEG)

Replay and HDTV

[fendel]

Whoa. If any existing ReplayTV models support HDTV, that is news to me. Better double-check that statement... AFAIK, there are no currently existing PVRs that record HDTV, only a couple of expensive S-VHS machines. Tivo has a HD model in the works, I've heard, and I imagine Replay will too, but not yet.

Re:Replay and HDTV

[rtechie]

My bad. I was confused by this bit on the ReplayTV web site:

Progressive Output If you have a High Definition ready TV (HDTV), the ReplayTV 5000 is for you. With the 480P Progressive output, you'll get richer, cleaner images. Improved color purity, color detail as well as a reduction in color noise and NTSC artifacts are the benefits of progressive scanning.

http://www.replaytv.com/video/replaytv5000/repla yt v_5000_features.asp

Still, it *IS* a display improvement for those with HDTV-ready video, which is what the original poster wanted to know.