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Oh hey look, they are using Cider:
https://www.transgaming.com/ne...

All the Cider games just plain suck. Regardless of any existing OpenGL issues. They just all perform like garbage, while native games don't show the same issues.

Or developers wishing to target these devices could make sure their games work perfectly in Wine. That's the goal of Cider on OS X, for example. If a program is developed with Wine as a first-class citizen, how is it not just as "native" as a Qt program running on a Gtk+ distribution?

Since a lot of games are windows based. They should partner with http://transgaming.com/ and make a good crossover platform better.

When game developers can see that people are willing to pay for beta access to games, what is their incentive to ship a polished game? Most consoles have online connectivity as well, so patching up later is usually not a problem either. I don't see this changing anytime soon, with quarterly budgets being more important than quality.

As for Fallout: New Vegas; the bugs were totally expected from anyone that played Fallout 3, which was also full of bugs. And it is not just gameplay bugs, the entire engine is extremely buggy and the game was neigh unplayable for a lot of PC players, but thankfully a very clever developer at http://www.transgaming.com/business/swiftshader made a custom D3D9.dll which corrects some of the engine bugs (like NOP all debug calls, ignore some buggy shaders, etc.):
http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34778 for the nVidia version.
http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34970 for the ATI version.
(The custom dll was made for Fallout 3 and not Fallout: New Vegas. Yet it fixes the same issues in both games.)

Note: the game is very, very good -- without the bugs. Too bad that it is the community that has to fix the bugs.

I've found that for pretty much any program with a Mac version, the Windows version works perfectly in Wine. I'm guessing it's a side effect of not being able to make Windows-specific assumptions.

Keep in mind that many Mac games are simply the Windows version bundled with a Wine fork, so it may be less a matter of making Windows-specific assumptions and more a matter of intentionally coding for Wine support.

Other posts mention Multi-seat linux. That is what you are looking for, plus WINE. At most, you will need to buy an extra graphics card. To run games on legacy systems, test it first under WINE. You get better performance and compatibility for games on WINE on Linux than you do for MS Vista. There are some that won't even run under WINE, though, so for those check out Cedega.

What to do about those suggesting Windows server? Double-tap to be sure.

There never was a real linux client and CCP had no dedicated linux developers as far as I know. It was always the Windows client wrapped in Cedega maintained by TransGaming. I believe most linux users were aware that plain Wine with the regular Windows client performed better in most cases, thus the official linux package was hardly used. Why maintain something that noone uses, right?

They still have a Mac version, but that is also the Windows client, wrapped in Cider.

I'm guessing that since they had help from TransGaming, that the Mac client isn't native either. Just wrapped in Cider.

I'd say this link would be a little more relevant: http://www.transgaming.com/products/swiftshader/

most devs using Cocoa are shipping Universal Binary (ies) already (that's anecdotal based upon what I've seen - I don't have an actual reference for that)

In contrast, it seems game developers have been using Cider quite a bit lately. This makes porting from Windows much easier, but the games will be Intel-only.

I don't understand how Intel-only predicates that it's a Windows application packaged in an OS X appliation? How does that follow?

The development environments of the two are nothing similar, and even though they compile down to the same instruction set I don't think that's what Silverlight is doing (*). There are fewer resources necessary to develop and support Intel-only applications than there are to support Universal binaries... especially for complicated CPU intensive tasks like video decoding. The fact is, that there hasn't been a PPC Mac sold in over 2 years -- PPC Macs are the minority and they're shrinking. That's not to say that you, with your Quad G5, have a slow machine, but there were few of those machines sold.

* One alternative for packaging Windows apps up into Intel-only Mac applications is Transgamin's Cider:

http://www.transgaming.com/products/cider/

Which is used for gaming only, so far as I know.

2-3% of the market is a lot of money at $15 a month.

However, please, do realize that games are typically sold for 6 months and supported for 1 year and 99% on a single platform (Win/XBox). Very few things are developed as cross-platform - and it is NOT because of OpenGL, more like commercial realities (cross-platform development is hard and doesn't make a lot of sense for ~2-3% of the market, especially for an app that will be sold for one season).

Except today's big money hauling games are sub-scription based, +5 year supported commercial platforms. This doesn't eliminate shrink wrapped abandonware any more than Linux killed the proprietary operating system. These games restort to emulation of Direct X to get multi-platform support instead of using OpenGL.

I am developing OpenGL applications for a decade now and all are still running and being used.
How many 10 year old games can you actually get working today?

I'm glad you spent the time to maintain all that code.

All the software I developed "with OpenGL" either uses a graphics engine that switches to DirectX on Windows or is so out of date that finding compilable libraries old enough to match the non-OpenGL pieces is an exercise in futility. I have plenty of 1.2 OpenGL code that is essentially dead.

Yes!!!
The Linux gaming solution is Cedega, try it.
http://www.transgaming.com/products/cedega/

You skipped the next sentence:

TransGaming's Cider implements common multimedia Windows APIs such as Direct3D, DirectInput, DirectSound and many others by mapping them to Mac equivalents.

It's virtualization at the API level, rather than the hardware level. I don't know if that was the grandparent poster's meaning, but I'd say it's a fair use of the term. The Mac's native OpenGL drivers are "virtualized" into DirectX drivers through the injection of an additional layer of abstraction that the original game doesn't realize is there. Just like virtualization software places an additional layer of abstraction between the OS and the real hardware that the OS doesn't realize is there, as a means of making it play nice with others.

You can argue over the definition, but the concept behind Cider is quite analogous to virtualization in the general sense.

The corollary to this is that TransGaming/Cider is actually virtualization as well.

No. Cider is an implementation of the Win32 API, just like Wine.

From the Cider page:

Cider works by directly loading a Windows program into memory on an Intel-Mac and linking it to an optimized version of the Win32 APIs. Games are "wrapped" with the Cider engine and they simply run on the Mac.

Cider is no more virtualization than GTK or Mesa are "virtualization".

Umm, Cedega? "Commercial re-implementation of the Windows API for Linux with a focus on gaming. Similar to (and a derivative of) WINE." So saith Google, at any rate.

There are solutions to some of your problems. For the quicktime problem, go to Medibuntu's help page and set up the medibuntu repository. Then, install mplayer, the firefox plugin, and the w32 codecs. (In a terminal, type: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install mplayer mozilla-mplayer w32codecs) Mplayer usually has no problem with quicktime files. If you install the mozilla/firefox plugin, you should be able to view quicktime trailers on the web.

I don't use IM clients very often, so I don't have any advice there. As for WOW, I would suggest checking out Cedega. It's very user friendly and well worth the money. I run several older Windows games with it.

Just a thought... I ventured over to http://www.transgaming.com/ , the company that EA worked with to do their Mac ports, and discovered that their front page is advertising EVE now being available for Mac and linux. Maybe we'll see future Bioware/Pandemic games, or any IP acquired by EA in the merger, ported to these systems as well? That could be neat.

Just because you can't does not mean Linux can't.

VideoConference http://ekiga.org/

Edit Video http://www.kdenlive.org/

Make mp3s: Insert CD copy mp3 folder with kde.org or Create new with http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

play video games with http://www.winehq.org/ or http://www.transgaming.com/ or god forbid you play open source games designed for linux. Too many to list see here http://icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php for a start.

make a slideshow, Ever use http://picasa.google.com/linux/ or KDE creates them on the fly from directory of pictures. Not to mention openoffice Impress http://www.openoffice.org/product/impress.html

How about a couple of kernel devs drop off and help Linux go the last mile.

How about you let the kernel devs do what they do best, and acquaint yourself with a little thing I like to call Google http://www.google.com/webhp.

Between this, ArsTechnica's report on Guitar Hero III Coming-to-PC and Macs via Aspyr, GameTap, and EA following through with their game announcements, It's finally looking 'not bad' for Mac gaming this year. I truly thought that Cider was a bunch of hooey, but it seems to be doing well.

... grinding that anti-MS axe.

Hey, that's not fair. I stand up for Microsoft now and then. Were those posts not helpful?

The Fine Article is about HP selling consumer desktop PCs with Linux, though. I don't what your post has to do with that but you anonymous cowards aren't getting astroturf points off of me today. Instead I'll provide informative topical discussion and foil your evil plot.

The original source for this story is apcmag. From that article:

Hewlett-Packard, the world's largest PC manufacturer, has announced it will start selling Linux-based PCs from $AU600 in Australia.

I can only hope this is a pilot, with PCs for the US market to follow. Like many of the people leaving comments on that story, I would like to buy some Linux laptops from HP here in the US. I would also like to see a choice of processors. This is a nice start though.

Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 Desktop also comes with OpenOffice preinstalled, Firefox for web browsing and Evolution for email.

That sounds like a full featured environment for the average user. Much better than Microsoft Works, a non-removable trial copy of Office and the usual collection of junkware that comes with a Windows PC. With compatible software vendors like this impressive list finding commercial software for your HP/Red Hat system should be no trouble. Dag has a whole bunch of free stuff available for it too. I imagine Windows users will have a hard time understanding that yes, you can just click on one of thousands of great free programs and it will install but it won't turn your PC into a spam zombie. It shouldn't take them long to get fond of it though. That's a significant change for people used to dealing with a software vendor that's proud that three quarters of a million of their customers were infested with root kits.

Windows gamers will be relieved to hear that for a measly $5/mo they can join Transgaming and play Windows games. If they have Windows programs they don't want to throw away like one of these, Wine will be a nice free addition to their Red Hat desktop. If they prefer a professionally maintained compatibility engine they might like Codeweavers' Crossover Linux which supports these programs and only costs $40.

The list of hardware known to be compatible with RHEL 5 is impressive, as is the list of systems that are certified and supported.

Disclosure - I also don't work for anybody mentioned here or sell their stuff. My opinions belong to me and I'm not getting paid to have them. YMMV, yadda yadda.

The choice of Red Hat as a partner in this venture shows just how GNU/Linux

WoW already runs on linux with the help of WINE, or its commercial equivalent Cedega - and after the kerfuffle towards the end of last year where a large number of false positives were returned by blizzard's anti-cheating code against individuals running WoW under Cedega, and the subsequent conversations between the Cedega and Blizzard guys, its fairly safe to say blizz are aware of this fact.

In general WINE and Cedega are becoming fairly well known within the game coding hemisphere - and the chance of native linux ports of games being released is decreasing. Why bother writing another client when you can be assured your windows client will work under linux if you are careful about how you write it?

Maybe this cycle won't dip as low as they once did, since the x86 allows for using Winelib (and it's bastard child "Cider"). We can only hope.

They're ported under license from the original publisher all titles on the Mac that didn't come from the original PC/Console publisher are licensed.

There is now an emulation layer called Cider that is like an emulation layer, but some work has to be done. Heros Of Might & Magic V is the first such game. Cider is Intel only, so if a title runs on PowerPC on the Mac, it was ported. x86 emulation on PPC is way too slow for playing games.

Just browse the news articles on sites like Inside Mac Games, or try a search.

I do, however, require at least one Windows box (currently XP64) for gaming

Have you tried this? It might be the last bit you need. I don't know if WINE will take care of the rest.

http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=Conten tExpress&func=display&ceid=2&meid=-1

Cedega , TransGaming's flagship Linux portability product, allows Windows games to run on Linux seamlessly and transparently, right out of the box. With Cedega installed on your computer running Linux, you can simply insert your favorite Windows game CD, install and then play that game just as you would on a Windows system.

Sorry, it isn't free.

World of Warcraft didn't work in WINE or Crossover when I tried it. I didn't get around to messing with it much, to be fair, but I expected the latter to work as it's advertised as one of their primary supported products.

I believe it's one of the primary supported products of Transgaming's Cedega, not Crossover (which is more oriented toward Office compatibility). I have used this myself, and it's pretty easy to get going. Not as easy as if it were native, no: a few more buttons to click, perhaps. But not a hassle.

Seriously, though, if you're into pro audio/video/graphics, and want an easy desktop replacement that does what your Windows box does with zero hassle, go OSX. I'm a diehard Linux user, but it's not for quick and simple hands-off use, and the promedia tools suck. OSX however fills this niche nicely. And I think WoW runs natively.

Hasn't anyone here ever heard of cedega.... It even runs steam!!! (sometimes, but then again that goes for windows machines too)I had wow running in a few minutes. http://www.transgaming.com/

I have been a Cedega user for several years now... and they do WoW in Linux very well:

http://www.transgaming.com/

It's only $15 to try it out for 3 months... if you are really interested in doing WoW in Linux I highly recommend it!

Friedmud

Actually, I recall CCP working closely with Transgaming in the past to introduce and maintain Linux support. Currently this was being offered through Cedega.

I would recommend going back to Ubuntu Edgy (or try the KDE version, Kubuntu, my favorite) and run automatix (http://www.getautomatix.com/) to get the esoteric stuff. I would also recommend buying (yes actually pay for software!) a subscription to Cedega (http://www.transgaming.com/) for your windows gaming needs. It's not expensive and it has worked great on several of the windows games that I had lying around from before.

Another useful Linux program that I forgot to mention is "CrossOver Linux." It is not free, but is a more user friendly version of WINE that is optimized to allow certain Windows office software programs to be run under Linux. It doesn't work with all versions of all Windows software, but in the past, I have used it to run Microsoft Office 97 and Office 2000 under Linux. I was using an old version of Red Hat Linux at the time, but it should also work with Ubuntu.

Cedega is another non-free version of WINE. It is designed to allow some Windows games to run under Linux. I am not a gamer and have not tried it, so I don't know much about it. I have heard that both products as well as the normal free version of WINE can all be installed at once without interfering with each other. If you know how to use old DOS commands and have some old DOS games that you want to play, you could download the Linux version of the free DOSBox program and run your old DOS games inside that.

One program that a desktop Linux user won't need is a virus scanner. There have never been any actively circulating Linux viruses, that is a Windows only problem. There are actually a few free and a few commercial virus scanners for Linux. If someone is running a Linux based mail server it might be useful to use one of those to protect your more vulnerable Windows clients from infected email attachments.

you are not allowed, for instance, to install CodeWeavers http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/ [codeweavers.com] for them to see MS Office inside Linux, or Transgaming's Cedega http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=Conten tExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=29 .... That he will save money, by not having to pay for the expensive MS OS ...

Oh boy, are linuxers naive...

Let me paint you this very real picture (someone I know): you own a computer store. You do have Linux on some machines. Customers come in, they look at it. They're curious. Oh, so this is "Linux" (notice? they've heard of it; they might even know it's open source - the term free software, in English, I'm not so sure is a good one - it sounds unprofessional.). They want to know if they can still have MS Office. Can their kids play games? Windows games?

But here's where things start to go wrong: you are not allowed, for instance, to install CodeWeavers http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/ for them to see MS Office inside Linux, or Transgaming's Cedega http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=Conten tExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=29 so their kids can play games. You are not allowed to do that, because Microsoft has you under a draconian contract. You do that, you're dead meat.

There's no way you can prove to Joe Dad that he doesn't need Windows, but that he can still have the Windows software he needs. That he will save money, by not having to pay for the expensive MS OS, and that he will gain in security, and save in antivirus software. In fact, your deal with Microsoft may even specify that if you even suggest that, you'll be in breach of contract.

To make matters worse, Microsoft (and Intel, BTW), will shove you a lot of money to promote your store (as long as you flash their brand names), even give you money for advertising.

So, you see, this is not such a simple world where "the best technology wins" or "as long as we have standards." This is much more than that, it's a marketing game. Linux, PC-BSD, etc, will have to start with the corporate desktop, where money matters. Unfortunately, Windows users are in a deadlock, because the FLOSS community has not been able to come up with competitive Office solutions (please, do not say OpenOffice.org is that solution - people who say that have no idea what they're talking about), including integration with the said hypothetical suite.

I had the same problems, so now I run two machines. One with windows, and one with Ubuntu. They share a k/b and mouse via Synergy, http://synergy2.sf.net/

Linux is not for gaming, if you absolutely insist on running WINDOWS games on LINUX, I suggest Cedega http://www.transgaming.com/

Try XMMS, if you don't like it or the plugins it supports there are over a dozen other programs out there for playing music etc. Or worst case you can post a bounty for the feature you want and pay a few bucks to have it developed.

There are cheap, linux compatible wireless cards. $33 - http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=20711&v pn=PC54G3&manufacture=MSI/MicroStar

I've found that if I do my office etc on the Linux box, and my gaming on the windows box, life is good :>

WineX/Cedega has had support for Everquest under Linux for over 4 years:
http://www.transgaming.com/showthread.php?news=49
http://cedegawiki.sweetleafstudios.com/wiki/EverQu est

Cedega runs Everquest. And World of Warcraft.

http://www.transgaming.com/

Hope this helps.

http://www.transgaming.com/products_linux.php

Working with Cadega probably makes more sense for most game developers.

Yes you restrict your product to Cadega users, but most of the hassle is handled by Cadega.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topi cId=47009071&pageNo=3&sid=1#40 http://www.transgaming.com/

Since when has bliz released "a totally broken client?", remember, they're not Verant. And I was talking about having Transgaming do the necessary support, including testing and feedback. But wait...

"So now has to do testing for each client against the list of 'official WOW Linux builds supported on WoW'."

Fixed it for you. See Transgaming already tests their supported programs under various distros (and provided the varied installers to boot)..

Which linux versions you say?:

"No matter what version of Linux you use"

Can you be more specific?

"Technical Requirements..."

"...* Linux Kernel 2.4 or higher
        * XFree 86 4.0 or higher (4.3 is recommended) or Xorg
        * glibc 2.2 or higher"

Seems kinda broad. So were talking about collaboration, not duplicating effort. Who would have thunk it.

With OSS, the bug is usually discovered quite quickly, and the patch is usually not far behind.

You neglect the primary reason for this phenomenon; the Open Source community actually listens to the users when a new version is released.

Cutler Beckett: I'm listening...
[Elizabeth aims a flintlock pistol at Cutler's head and pulls the hammer.]
Cutler Beckett: I'm listening intently.
And now for something completely different.

There are plenty of fun games that are native to the Linux platform[...]

Hours and hours of Armagetron, Nethack, Linux Racer and Abuse, eh? The story goes that Linux will become a gaming platform when the Linux community actually starts paying for the games. Pity that Loki isn't still around; alas, they were before their time. I wonder who takes-up the baton now? Transgaming? Their support is laughable (by comparison) and many simple questions go completely ignored. Unlike Loki, they only support a platform of compatibility, not a movement of straight-porting to Linux-kernel architecture.

Still, plenty have made the jump and are doing best they can with compatibility.

But above all, use what works for you. If you don't like Linux, don't use it.

Well said. So very freedom-of-choice of you. But then...

[...]you'll eventually be forced to use something other than Windows.

Ha ha! Irony!

Many in this community would be quick to point-out that we are a "nation" who believes in the choice of the individual. That is the primary reason any form of Linux is in the home and not locked-away in large, expensive schools and research corporations.

Appreciate the reason that people use Window$; it comes ready-to-go. Despite the fact that it only remains in that state for a few days, the "out of box experience" can not be denied.

Nobody is really forced to use Windows, likewise, nobody will ever be "forced to use something [else]". Our choices are guided by the Market, and the Market favors M$. It's a plain truth in business, but it's also a plain truth that no, one power in the Market can withstand the attention forever. Goliath will fall.

IE7 has already pissed me off to no end. I have customers who benefit from my web design. The measures of "protection" and "security" in IE7 have kept me from presenting updated content, or previewing new drafts, because the page is not "aged enough" or is "untrusted". Why would we want a product that treats the world as suspect but is ready to consider it's "home" domain a trustable resource? Call it what it is! It's a "blacklisting" product, and it doesn't even follow "whitelisting" protocols; for sites that are entered as trustworthy are still denied due to some black-box programming that is "included for our safety." FUD Indeed! Feh!

You can run almost any game built for Micros~1 Windows on Linux... I use Transgaming's Cedega http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=Conten tExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=29. Its easy to install and supports every game I have ever wanted.

Hello, I am a gamer and I use Linux.... for real.

WoW doesn't have a Linux client. The only way to play WoW in Linux is to run it through either Wine or Cedega.

You can run other games through them as well.

Although I have no experience myself, Cedega says it plays most games pretty well. And it plays a lot of the popular games. Most home users don't need photoshop. My wife wanted to edit her photos. I installed GIMP (for windows) and she hasn't had any complaints. Most home users don't need 3D Studio Max or know what it is. WTF IS ETC?? you can't just list etc. and pretend that there are more reasons. I realize that not every computer can be replaced with Linux. Some professionals need certian programs that are only available on Windows. That's fine, they can keep on using windows. The other 98% of users who don't need those specialized applications will be able to get everything done just fine on Linux.

There are lots of games for linux. Go here: http://www.linuxgames.com/ or here: http://www.tuxgames.com/ or here: http://www.happypenguin.org/ to find out more. I play Enemy Territory for about an hour a night, and also play a lot of Neverwinter Nights with the occasional UT 2003 match...

You can also see what's available via Cedega.

http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?name=News&fil e=article&sid=36
Now even DirectX games can run on Intel Macs.

Since the summary didn't explain what Cider is:

technology that promises to convert Windows games to Mac OS X on Intel processors without the need for the long porting process traditionally required to bring titles to the platform. The company said that it has already forged agreements "with a number of the top tier video game publishers" to bring many of their titles to Intel-based Macs "in the next few months."

Cider works by directly loading a Windows program into memory on an Intel-Mac and linking it to an optimized version of the Win32 APIs,

Cedega works by directly loading a Windows program into memory on a Linux system and linking it to a Linux-optimized version of the Win32 APIs.

I don't think they're scum at all. The source is still available from their own webstite, all they're charging for is the support, Point2Play, access to their forums and the right to vote for what games you'd like to see supported next. I run the cvs (which I got from their website) and run it on FC5 and it didn't cost me a penny - and it's legal!

I looked at 3D rendering quite a while back (about 15 years ago). Believe me -- you probably don't really want to built this up from scratch.

It sounds like you just need some sample code that doesn't rely on OpenGL or DirectX. To that end, the following (open-source) projects may be useful:

• Freshmeat listing of 3D Rendering Projects is probably a good place to start. The first few projects look promising already.

• Flipcode game development website listing of software may also be helpful. The Toxic Engine and SW-Shader (now SwiftShader, under Transgaming) projects seem to be pure software renderers that may be suitable.

Ignorance is strength
Freedom is slavery
War is peace

Stay ignorant and repeat the lies, or learn and make your own oppinion. Your choice.

Package management and dependencies used to be a problem for me, then I learned of debian, games used to be a problem for me and then I learned of winex(cedega), I had a problem with MS office and then I found crossover, I had a problem with outlook and then I found evolution, I had a problem with single sign on and windows transparency over server message block then I found winbind... There are frustrated users, and then there are self educating *nix users.

In reality, the biggest failing is education, not cross compatible software.