Vista Vs. Gutsy Gibbon

ricegf writes in with the account of one Rupert Goodwins writing in ZDNet UK. Goodwins has 7 computers running various versions of Windows and Linux, and explains why he chooses to do most of his work on the Gibbon. "So here's the funny thing. I've used Windows since 1.0. I've lived through the bad times of Windows/386 and ME, and the good times of NT 3.51 and 2K. I know XP if not backwards, then with a degree of familiarity that only middle-aged co-dependents can afford each other... Then how come I'm so much more at home with Ubuntu than Vista? It boils down to one abiding impression: Ubuntu goes out of its way to get out of your way... Vista goes out of its way to be Vista and enforce the Vista way."

Comments

That's because:

[Anonymous Coward]

One was written for the lowest common denominator and one wasn't.

Re:That's because:

[davecb]

More generally, poor programmers try to make programs so simple that only simple things are possible.

Good programmers, and I'll point at Apple IPhoto chaps just because I saw one lately, make the things people actually want to do easy. In tis case it was having three sliders, labeled "lighten shadows", "darken highlights" and "brightness". Doing those adjustments is downright hard, but the good developers found that is what real live humans wanted to do, and did the work to make it easy.

Linux programmers, go thou and do likewise!

--dave

Re:That's because:

[WheelDweller]

Yeah, you're probably right in that regard; Microsoft uses "focus groups", though there are real people that discuss usability in open source, too. Personally I think it's more a matter that, when you work for Microsoft, you're 'puttin' in eight' while open source developers "own" their code, and feel slighted at the idea that anyone could break their code and embarrass them. The motivation of the makers makes a real difference.

And there's also a strategic reason of marketing; Microsoft is all about marketing. Every move they make has that explicit goal. In Linux, we do what we think people will like....because they TELL US. :)

Gutsy is quite good. For many years I've appreciated a handful of things Microsoft does:

1. Printer control (when the DLLs don't go missing/insane/violated by CircusWare
2. Microsoft Flight Simulator
3. Easy networking.

Looks like there's nothing really left, now that Flight Gear is surely coming up to speed!

Good job, guys!

Re:That's because:

[JK_the_Slacker]

Intriguing. My experience has been that Apple marketing convinces the end user that they have provided all they need. I see this attitude from several of my classmates, who can't seem to understand that changes in program requirements set forth by the professor require them to change their code. "What? You're making me change my program? But I already wrote it!" The rest of us quietly make the changes and move on with our lives.

Here's the thing though: we see a return on our investment, if you will. Meet the prof's specs, get a good grade, eventually get a degree and a good job. Apple and Windows developers tend to see a return on their investment: Please the end user, they buy the product, money in our pockets, move on with life.

what's the return for a Linux developer? "You flaming tightwad, why doesn't the software you spent the last two years of your life working on do XYZ? You should be more considerate of your end user!" It's of no relevance that the program already does A-R, and that even the big boys of the commercial world are just now getting L and Y working properly. How often have YOU voluntarily donated to the developers of the free software you use? What's the incentive to continue developing that software?

I guess the whole point is: We're working on it, just give us a little more time.

Re:That's because:

[xaque]

We're working on it, just give us a little more time. The mantra of all true programmers.

Re:That's because:

[Jane Q. Public]

I'll tell you what I have contributed to open-source projects so far: very little. Why? Because, as a developer, I first have to make enough money to contribute that money to open-source projects, or enough money to have the time to contribute my time to them. In both cases, the problem is that I have only just begun to break even using my open-source tools, and so I have neither the time nor money to contribute much... yet.

I fully intend to contribute more to open-source, when I am in a position from which I can do so. Until then, about the best I can do is say, "Keep going! You are doing a Good Thing!"

Re:That's because:

[nilbud]

It can be done. Non programmers just don't seem to understand that there's a "possibly even within the lifetime of the universe." implicit in that.

Re:That's because:

[Technician]

More generally, poor programmers try to make programs so simple that only simple things are possible.

In the Windows world, I often found programs nutered so they can sell the premium edition. It is so prevelant it has a name... Crippleware and Demoware
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoware

Pick up any recent HP computer and you will find many installed examples of this broken stuff littered all over it. When I first wanted to try Ubuntu, I downloaded the ISO on my wife's XP dell because it had the CD writer. Guess what, the CD writer program had ISO burning disabled, but they were kind enough to include a software package to offer to download the upgrade, no waiting for about $50. Grr. I never bothered to spend the $50 for a copy of Ubuntu. A search of friendlier software quickly turned up a real CD ISO burner.

Once Ubuntu was up and running, I found the simple task of burning a CD was simple, elegant, without bloat, and worked.

poor programmers try to make programs so simple that only simple things are possible
I find poor programmers try to make programs to extract the most cash possible.
1 Pay to be the default installation
2 Have reduced functionality of an essentual feature such as printing or burning
3 Have built in links to the upgrade fee processing site.

What they missed is The Internet and Google. Crippleware is deadware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crippleware

Re:That's because:

[Imsdal]

For many years I've appreciated a handful of things Microsoft does:

The important thing you missed is Excel. Excel is, by far and away, the most important reason so few comapnies move away from Microsoft. Yes, there are alternatives out there. Yes, for 90% of all Excel users, the alternatives are good enough. However, for the last 10% of users, the alternatives are simply not good enough. (Pivot tables, VBA, specific add-ins, mainly.)

And guess what? It's the 10% of users who use this stuff who have the final say.

Re:That's because:

[an.echte.trilingue]

>What's the return for a Linux developer?

Linux developers work for money, just like apple and windows developers.

Re:That's because:

[cloudwilliam]

"I see this attitude from several of my classmates, who can't seem to understand that changes in program requirements set forth by the professor require them to change their code. 'What? You're making me change my program? But I already wrote it!' The rest of us quietly make the changes and move on with our lives."

Your classmates don't do that because they're confused by Apple's marketing. And you don't change your code because you believe in the higher ideals of open source. They're lazy students. You're a good student. I teach writing at the college level and the attitude is exactly the same. Most students don't want to revise their papers or their programs not because of Apple or Microsoft, but because they'd rather be drinking beer and playing Halo.

Re:That's because:

[hey!]

My experience has been that Apple marketing convinces the end user that they have provided all they need.

Apple marketing may be good, but it doesn't have supernatural powers. It's not as if it is casting its spell over people so they accept music players that are just solid block of plastic, or email programs that don't have the ability to send or receive messages.

The truth is that a solid block of plastic does everything most people need a music player to do. It just falls short in satisfying their wants. And what they need in a computer does not even include a GUI; folks could get by with vi and LaTex. Who knows? Maybe once they got used to it they'd actually be better off. Having a GUI isn't about needs, it's about experience.

Marketing's great vice is definitely not minimizing their customers' needs. On the contrary, it strives in the customer's mind to promote whims to wants, and wants to needs. Apple marketing is no different than any other company's marketing. What they've done differently is to offer a different proposition to their customers. Instead of, "we'll do everything you want", it's "we'll do the things that matter most to you better." Naturally they don't dwell on the things that they don't do (yet -- that's a huge ingredient on the Apple upgrade treadmill). To be fair, other companies that have products that do more things don't exactly dwell on how poorly they do them.

It's all about which proposition you find more credible, which one is more possible to deliver upon.

Re:That's because:

[petermgreen]

I keep seeing this claim but never any real evidence to back it up. In fact the first link you give says "No stats are available on how much work is being done by developers on a payroll as opposed to community volunteers."

Yes the key developers on some high profile projects get paid by someone to work on thier projects. Linus gets paid by the "linux foundation" (which seems to be a trade organisation of firms with a vested interest in linux's sucess). The core devs of openoffice and java (which isn't fully opensource yet but is getting that way) are paid by sun. The commercial linux distros also put some paid development in the direction of projects that matter to them.

However I see no evidence that this is typical, all the smaller opensource projects I have been involved with them have been run by people who have a day job doing something else and propietry software for linux seems to be virtually nonexistant.

Re:That's because:

[ErroneousBee]

And they'll say, OK, we'll try Crossover Office and see how it goes.

Unless they are so insane that they have managed to become beholden to to Office 2007 data formats already.

Any large company is going to have special needs users who cannot make the switch, but these will often be the ones who have created the situation in the first place and the company may be better off without them.

Re:That's because:

[WheelDweller]

Yeah, that's probably true; 90% of the people use little more than the basics...except for the megacorporations who have 'overtrained' folks doing the stats for each and every department, hearing the siren-song of the long-promised 'enterprise-connected spreadsheet'. But I've gotta say, Gnumeric is a good, solid piece of code, and only getting better. They report some ~250 Excel plugins/macros cloned and another ~200 that it doesn't have. It's a contender...

But good point.

So what's the problem with the 90%? :)

Re:That's because:

[Imsdal]

And they'll say, OK, we'll try Crossover Office and see how it goes.

No, "they" won't say that. They have an environment that works.

Unless they are so insane that they have managed to become beholden to to Office 2007 data formats already.

Not an issue (yet).

Any large company is going to have special needs users who cannot make the switch, but these will often be the ones who have created the situation in the first place and the company may be better off without them.

Spoken like a true BOFH. In real life, I see both stupid solutions implemented by clueless desk jockeys because they don't know better, and weird but moderately ingenious solutions to problems directly created by a draconian IT department who has no incentive what so ever to increase user productivity. My experience is that the latter is actually more common than the former. And yet I have never, ever, seen an IT department acknowledge that end users implemented stuff that looks weird because the IT department made it impossible to do it in a reasonable way. Strange that, huh?

Re:That's because:

[Imsdal]

So what's the problem with the 90%? :)

Pivot tables. Seriously - you will never get a power user to switch from Excel without a good implementation of pivot tables. And again, power users dictate what tools to use (at least in this case). The last few times this has come up, more than one comment has read "what are those? I have never used them!". The obvious answer to that is "small wonder you can't understand why people stick with Excel".

Also, other power users of Excel may give a different answer to this question, which is why the contenders have such a difficult time getting a foothold. You really have to do very close to 100% of what Excel does at least as well in order to convince the power users to switch. And the perceived loss of giving up known features is larger than the perceived gain from new features, so in practice it's impossible to skip pivot tables and do something else exceedingly well. I have no idea what the alternatives do exceedingly well, my point is simply that that doesn't matter much.

Re:That's because:

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple marketing may be good, but it doesn't have supernatural powers.
Wait, what?

Re:That's because:

[ErroneousBee]

Any large company is going to have special needs users who cannot make the switch, but these will often be the ones who have created the situation in the first place and the company may be better off without them.

Spoken like a true BOFH. In real life, I see both stupid solutions implemented by clueless desk jockeys because they don't know better, and weird but moderately ingenious solutions to problems directly created by a draconian IT department who has no incentive what so ever to increase user productivity. My experience is that the latter is actually more common than the former. And yet I have never, ever, seen an IT department acknowledge that end users implemented stuff that looks weird because the IT department made it impossible to do it in a reasonable way. Strange that, huh?

Quite, Ive even been part of a draconian IT dept. The other departments went off and cooked up their own multimillion pound IT fiascos. A synthesis was achieved by actually having proper requirements/costs discussions with the 'customer' depts (and moving a slightly controlling manager away from the IT dept).

Accounts software is a special case. Accounts departments often end up so conflicted by the incompatible goals of cost control and usable software that they often give up one (or both) of these requirements, whereas most other 2-department situations results in a discussion of costs vs benefits.

I think this is why many small companies fail, as they gave up cost-control or software useability for the sake of not having to do any research into solutions to their actual requirements.

Re:That's because:

[jandrese]

Aren't those kind of like DataPilot? It's not like the feature is exclusive to Excel.

Re:That's because:

[jgc7]

Picasa has sliders that let you "darken shadows" and "brighten highlights". The fact they ripped off a feature and then implemented it backwards makes me want to puke.

Re:That's because:

[Imsdal]

There seems to be a bunch of programs called DataPilot, so I'm no sure exactly which one you are referring to, but yes, there are pivot tables in all serious reporting applications, such as offered by BusinessObjects, Cognos, Hyperion etc. However, good as those tools are, they are no substitute for Excel. (The same obviously is true in reverse - you can't really replace a proper BusinessObjects implementation with Excel.)

The point isn't that pivot tables are unique to Excel. The point is that it's lacking in the closest competitors.

Re:That's because:

[oni]

Excel is great, unless you want to multiply 77.1 * 850, in which case it gives you the wrong answer*

*Excel 2007 anyway.

Re:That's because:

[Thyrteen]

To be more honest on how this works, I've donated to quite a few open source free software projects, mostly distros. I don't expect a return, and I'm not pushy towards developers. However, all too often, I join an IRC channel to troubleshoot a problem with a project I have donated to, and I get flamed out for being very straightforward about the info I give and receive. I'm not kidding, I can specifically site a major distro channel which I won't, because I don't start bad blood, but I was trying to help someone else fix a distro problem, and I was yelled at by both a op in the channel and a voiced user, only because I restated to the voiced user that I gave him specifically the information he requested, and the fact that I hadn't given him more info was solely because he didn't ask for more. Apparently, I was wrong in the end? And threatened to be kicked. No biggie, let him have his cake, but I've noticed this more than once when people ask for help. However, I Still donate, because I still use the software.

Re:That's because:

[LWATCDR]

I hate to say it but I have to agree. I have seen people complain about FOSS and then when I give them the true FOSS answer they get all bent. You have the source go fix it yourself.
I have found that if I find a bug and document a fix for it or if I want a feature added and write it myself that the FOSS author is very willing to add it.

I guess and the fact that I am willing to say thank you also helps.

Re:That's because:

[cytg.net]

the truth .. usability in our field is sooo underrated it makes you wanna smash someones head in.

Re:That's because:

[toddestan]

Apple marketing may be good, but it doesn't have supernatural powers.

Wait, you're telling me that the Reality Distortion Field(tm) is not real?

Re:That's because:

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple marketing may be good, but it doesn't have supernatural powers. It's not as if it is casting its spell over people

Yes, that's right... there's nothing hypnotic about the swirling busy cursors. Nothing.
This guy is right. Do not analyse OS X or the iPod OS for secret hypnotic queues. You will find nothing.
Nothing.

When I snap my fingers you will awaken and remember none of this conversation
*snap*

Another one

[xaxa]

How many of these articles are we going to get?

(I'll leave it up to you as to whether I'm just fed up with them, or am pondering the success of Linux)

Re:Another one

[Farakin]

As many as it takes? (I'll leave it up to you as to whether I'm trying to make you fed up or cheering on the success of Linux)

Re:Another one

[HybridJeff]

You're pondering how fed up you are with the success of linux.

Re:Another one

[Donniedarkness]

Don't fear the penguins.

Geesh, it even says it on the top of the page.

Re:Another one

[Ramble]

Don't worry, I'm sure we'll get plenty more Compare shitty Windows install by a shoddy minimum wage tech to a souped up customised speedy Gentoo install with all hardware hand picked so it works articles.

Re:Another one

[gbulmash]

Think of it this way... these OSes are so feature-rich that there are any number of axes on which to compare them. I recently wrote up a comparison between Ubuntu 7.10 and Windows XP, based on installing them into virtual machines on my Mac and then trying to get them to play a DVD.

Re:Another one

[davidsyes]

Maybe we should get that feature added as to kernel space...

I wonder if this article got posted as a feel-good right after the TurboLinux news posted...

Re:Another one

[baadger]

I shouldn't have to click that link to find out which one won then, since Vista won't play DVD's (decode MPEG2) out of the box.

Re:Another one

[T-Bone-T]

Ubuntu won't play CSSed DVDs out of the box either.

Re:Another one

[gbulmash]

Vista won't play DVD's (decode MPEG2) out of the box. Actually, two versions of Vista (Home Premium and Ultimate) bundle DVD decoders.

But Ubuntu wont play DVDs out of the box either. The task was to see how quickly and easily Ubuntu and XP could each be made DVD capable.

Re:Another one

[rlbond86]

At least Vista can play them legally.

Re:Another one

[zippthorne]

What bugs me is that I picked my networking card based partly on Feisty's wireless card matrix in which it was claimed to "works 100% out of the box."

Of course, It didn't say that you have to download software to make it work, and that that software wasn't in the repository. or that you couldn't use the GUI with it. No, that information was had by sifting through the forums.

Fortunately, I was wise enough to search through the forums, and the card I chose was the only "100% works out of the box" at the time that was under $70 and had posts by people who had allegedly actually gotten it to work and thought they knew how they did it.

Well I got it working eventually, but I'll have to wait to reinstall Gutsy when someone to figures out how to do it again. 'Till then, back to XP & 7.04.

Anyway, what's the point of buying the "blessed" hardware (as in the brand and model that all the forums rave about) if by the time all the raves are out, the manufacturer has quietly upgraded the firmware/hardware to render all that raving moot?

Re:Another one

[mrsteveman1]

OH SNAP

no one cares anymore

Re:Another one

[Abalamahalamatandra]

I think your research was kind of shoddy...

I have a Latitude X300 that had a B-only MiniPCI wireless card in it, and I wanted G - so I bought an IPW2200 card for I think $30 shipped and it works out of the box perfectly, going all the way back to Dapper, I believe. Certainly on Feisty and Gutsy. Same goes for my Latitude X1 - it has an IPW2200 card, came up perfectly.

My boss was installing on a D430 - it has a Broadcom card, which required one extra step - plug it into the wired network, install "bcm43xx-fwcutter", which asks to download the Windows driver on install, you say yes, reboot and it works.

In short, do better research next time.

Re:Another one

[HermMunster]

As many as are necessary to wake up people to the idea that there are other OSes that are as good if not better than Windows. I often read the headlines and see the word "Microsoft" listed several times a day. That's free publicity. When I see articles such as this it says "free publicity". Linux is good, Feisty was great. Gutsy is even better. 6 months from now when the next release is out we'll see even more improvement. In a couple years *everyone* will be wondering why they are paying for Windows. The smart ones are writing articles to let others know they have a choice. The vast majority of people don't know that Linux exists and hence because they don't know it they don't have a choice. This is how Microsoft likes to have it.

The more we speak about it, the more we demo it, the more we encourage others and the better the product gets the better chance we have of bringing to light to a greater audience that Linux is a valid, reliable, privacy-protected, secure, competent and capable choice for everyone.

Re:Another one

[HermMunster]

One can only say that about the US. But it isn't that we can't play them legally, it is that no one is selling a package of decoders for Linux.

In other countries it is legal and hence your point is moot. But yes, because the powers that be are intentionally disregarding the demand for a legal decoder on Linux many in the US have to resort to less than total legitimacy for DVD playback.

This doesn't mean that the DVDs are stolen, it just means that the codec isn't available, or at least not widely known.

In XP and some Vistas you still can't legally play a DVD without purchasing a 3rd party decoder. Also, keep in mind that Microsoft has 47 different programs under Vista that collect information about your computer and report that back to their offices. In Linux you don't have those privacy violations. Then, on top of all that privacy violation you still have WGA/WGN, the high price tag, and the true lack of any real reason to upgrade. When you are done considering that you have to consider why those codecs may have been provided--as a means to ensure you use those tools that give Microsoft's DRM and the content creators control of your computer. What I'm saying is you can't trust to use those products and would be better off buying another brand. I won't use the media player in XP or Vista because the license agreement tells me that I must allow Microsoft to monitor the content.

I'd rather have a small violation of a non-legit codec then to have this ginormous company that was convicted of illegal monopolistic predatory practices telling me what I can and can't do with my computer.

Re:Another one

[b4upoo]

I suspect that Ubuntu- Kubuntu etc. will be getting all kinds of articles simply because we have a seriously fabulous Linux OS at hand. It is good looking and more stable than the rocks used for the pyramids of Egypt. My only concern is that other worthy Linux OSs drown under the effect of Ubuntu gathering some much momentum. The folks over at Slackware, Puppy Linux and Mepis also have done great works as have others yet Ubuntu just might sweep up the dance floor.

Re:Another one

[westlake]

How many of these articles are we going to get?

They will never end until the Geek lets go the idea that what works for him works for others --- like his neighbor, Joe. who will, in a year or so, have become as comfortable with his new dual or quad core Vista system as he became with his Pentium 4 running XP.

Re:Another one

[CastrTroy]

Yeah, he should be using a better distro like Mandriva, which can play them perfectly legally if you pay for the powerpack version. And it costs only $59 for the download version, or $89 for the boxed version. Much cheaper than Vista.

Re:Another one

[deftones_325]

Mandriva 2008 ( free version or powerpack) kicks ass over both Gutsy and Vista. I say this a huge huge ubuntu fan. I definately dont mean to flamebait or whatever. Just try it.

Re:Another one

[CastrTroy]

As a long time Mandriva user (since 1999) I never really saw the draw of Ubuntu. For me, Ubuntu never offered anything that Mandriva didn't offer, and always seemed to be lacking in quite a few areas.

Re:Another one

[ShieldW0lf]

You should try it out by grabbing the DVD Install/LiveCD off of bittorrent here:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/dvd/current/

Disclaimer: My download will get faster if you do this.

Re:Another one

[AttillaTheNun]

Is this Bill or Steve?

Re:Another one

[Sparr0]

Liar. Ubuntu won't decrypt CSS out of the box. It plays DVDs just fine.

Re:Another one

[DaveWick79]

When I install XP/Vista, I don't have to research. Therein lies the problem. I don't want to research, let alone have to do "better research" just to make it work.

Re:Another one

[fractoid]

(-1, Pedantic). How many commercial DVDs, the type that one would want to sit down and watch, are not encrypted via CSS? I'm ready to stand corrected if it's an appreciable number.

Re:Another one

[confused one]

To each his own. That's why there are dozens of distros. I've actually never (knowingly) run Mandriva. Every few years I poke around and then settle on a *nix for a while, based on both objective "it works" and subjective "I like it" criteria. Back in the mid '90's I tried Slackware and RedHat... and settled on RedHat on my desktop. (with Solaris on production machines) In '02 I played with a few distros, Rock, Gentoo, LFS, Suse, RedHat, to name a few... and settled on Suse. This year I played with Solaris, FreeBSD, Knoppix, Gentoo, Ubuntu... and settled on Ubuntu. For right now Ubuntu does what I need it to and I find it comfortable to work in. I like that my laptop, my test machine, and my main box all worked (except for some tweaking required on a wireless card). I like the way in which they implemented some things. That may change in a few years. We'll have to wait and see...

Re:Another one

[ozmanjusri]

like his neighbor, Joe. who will, in a year or so, have become as comfortable with his new dual or quad core Vista system

My neighbour's name is Shane. He bought a dual core system with 2 GB ram and Radeon X1550. It had Vista Home Premium installed, and after two months, he asked me to wipe it and install XP.
Sadly, I couldn't convince him to go all the way to Linux, but I did leave him a live CD so he can do his banking safely.

Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: My ISP ensures that my download will negatively affect your download speed.

Re:Another one

[confused one]

I got a rt2500 based ASUS card for $25. Meets their "works 100% out of the box" claim. Did have minor problems with it, which were easy to fix.

Re:Another one

[ShieldW0lf]

Yes, but that's not one of the choices before you. You have "do research and get it working" or "doesn't work, sorry, wait for service pack". Pick.

Re:Another one

[Sparr0]

Not many, which is why I don't buy many DVDs. Every one that I own is devoid of encryption. Ditto every one that I make.

Re:Another one

[renegadesx]

My wireless card works great under gutsy, my ATi X1550... not

Re:Another one

[bit01]

How many of these articles are we going to get?

Not as many as all the Vista propaganda articles I hope. Though that would balance things out.

---

Marketing talk is not just cheap, it has negative value. Free speech can be compromised just as much by too much noise as too little signal.

Re:Another one

[fishbowl]

The only time I have ever *had to* play a DVD on a computer, it was a locally produced disc. It played on Ubuntu "out of the box."
I was very grateful, just like I have been grateful for linux every other one of the thousands of times it has been the OS that saved my butt.

Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what really annoys me? Those stupid unskippable-on-hardware-DVD-players anti-piracy ads. I have no problems paying for a movie, but the number of times that I've had to watch at least the first 5-10 seconds those ads in recent weeks (until I found the remote and muted them) makes me very grateful that when our sysadmin guy quit, he left behind a backup disk with every movie ever on it. ;)

Re:Another one

[zippthorne]

Where are all the linux guys getting all this cheap gear? I'm always seeing forum posts about insanely inexpensive gear working perfectly, then when I look for it, i can't even find it for that price on eBay (which I'm not going to use anyway, as I very much like that new-computer smell)

I had the same problem with video. Although that pretty much worked right out of the box for me despite my having chosen what would at forum glance appear to have been the worst card I could've picked. ATI TV wonder pro something or other, to complement my ATI radeon 9600 XT. Purchased because unlike the much talked about, allegedly low-priced Hauppage cards, it was actually available at my local big box store.

Now that the digital changeup is going down, I'm thinking about upgrading. Remembering the brand from the forums, I did a quick search to see what the latest Hauppage card is. Surprise! It seems like every card has "good linux support" except the low-priced one you can pick up at radio shack. But it still looks like a good deal, since I dual boot. Just means spending more time in windows. Perhaps I'll buy it anyway.

I don't like to complain. I fully understand that it's about scratching itches, and as I'm not a developer, I lament that my itches are not the same ones the developers want to scratch. But I still have to wonder, is it a linux-user thing to tend to exaggerate the deals we get on hardware?

Re:Another one

[Max Littlemore]

As a long time Mandriva user (since 1999) I never really saw the draw of Ubuntu.

Back in '99 I didn't use Mandriva, but I did use Mandrake. Tried a few versions, but after 10 I decided to check Debian out.

Debian was a little trickier to set up, but maintaining the system and installing packages was so much simpler. None of the sadistic insanity of rpm.

Unfortunately I found myself wanting to run bleeding edge stuff on Debian and that really sucked, so after hearing a bit about this "Ubuntu" thing, I switched. I haven't lokoed back.

Don't know where Mandriva is up to now, but I do know that Ubuntu has the best of the ease of use school (like Mandriva) with the best of sane package management (Debian) and that has me sold. That and the fact that Mandriva is a stupid, stupid name.

By the by, if you really want to pay money for commercial codecs and extra software badness, XandrOS is really worth a look.

Re:Another one

[Usquebaugh]

No Brain, I'm pondering per chance, will we take over the world tonight.

Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

(-1, Pedantic). How many commercial DVDs, the type that one would want to sit down and watch, are not encrypted via CSS? I'm ready to stand corrected if it's an appreciable number.

Perhaps not all that many, but some historically significant DVDs are not so encumbered. Behind the Green Door is free of that filth.

Re:Another one

[icsx]

Too many but this was hilarity few days ago on Digg. The guy who wrote the article couldnt tell a difference of 1MB and 1GB. Soon after they found out it was on Digg, mistakes where mysteriously fixed.

Re:Another one

[Repossessed]

I get mine either from newegg or the boxes of parts that magically acumalate in my closet. (If you don't have a amgic closet, you really should get one).

Re:Another one

[rjames13]

Maybe if you remove Vista from your argument you might have a point. But the minute you add Vista into the mix your argument collapses in a heap on the floor crying out "please help me up".

Re:Another one

[mwlewis]

That and the fact that Mandriva is a stupid, stupid name.

Sorry, was this supposed to be an argument for Ubuntu? Gutsy Gibbon? I'm posting from Ubuntu, too, but I haven't fooled myself into thinking that it isn't a weird name. At least in Vista, MS has a name that you aren't embarrassed to say out loud in front of your boss.

Re:Another one

[dintech]

Is that supposed to hypnotize me or just give me a splitting sore headache?

Re:Another one

[nmg196]

Windows market share: 92%
Linux market share: 0.81%

Yeah linux is *really* successful.

This is slashdot, so I'll probably be modded to minus infinity in about 4 seconds, but even if linux is good/great, it certainly couldn't be described as "successful".

source

Re:Another one

[Musrum]

At least in Vista, MS has a name that you aren't embarrassed to say out loud in front of your boss. And how long will that last?

Re:Another one

[plague3106]

Oh, so you mean it will play home movies just fine, but not what most people do, which is to watch commerical movies.

Re:Another one

[plague3106]

I'm sorry, much cheaper? $20 difference isn't all that major difference.

Re:Another one

[CastrTroy]

However, Mandriva comes with everything. The $107 Vista won't let you legally play DVDs either. You have to get a separate program to do that. Also, Mandriva has a full suite of servers (HTTP,SQL,DNS,SMTP,POP3,IMAP,....) which don't come with Windows Home versions.

Re:Another one

[plague3106]

Ya it will. Home premium (the one I linked to) lets you play DVDs out of the box.

What home user cares about running an http, sql, dns, smpt, pop3 or imap server? Wow you're out of touch.

Re:Another one

[LingNoi]

Depends how you measure success. For myself the fact that Ubuntu increasingly gets better makes it a success. I can understand you have a problem dealing with that because Windows is about world domination and the two ideologies are different.

Also if you check your source again you'll see that Linux is growing.

October, 2006 - 0.39%
November, 2006 - 0.37%
December, 2006 - 0.37%
January, 2007 - 0.35%
February, 2007 - 0.42%
March, 2007 - 0.57%
April, 2007 - 0.80%
May, 2007 - 0.70%
June, 2007 - 0.71%
July, 2007 - 0.75%
August, 2007 - 0.77%
September, 2007- 0.81%

Re:Another one

[Ticklemonster]

I wonder, why don't DVDs come with the codecs/etc necessary for people to view them in the first place? Included in the price of the DVD would be a small fee for the codecs. Imagine how much MORE money those capitalist pigs would make if they implemented this.

Re:Another one

[jon_anderson_ca]

Cancel or allow?

Re:Another one

[u-235-sentinel]

But Ubuntu wont play DVDs out of the box either. The task was to see how quickly and easily Ubuntu and XP could each be made DVD capable.

Once I downloaded the dcss deb file from videolan.org, it took me about 60 seconds to make Ubuntu DVD capable.

Re:Another one

[danbert8]

On home desktop machines maybe. But you forget about the server market. And the supercomputing market. And the rendering farm market. And the embedded market...
 
Windows is a joke on any of these types of setups. And people are slowly starting to realize that why Linux runs on these setups is why they want them on a home computer. Rock solid, secure, fast, and free.

Re:Another one

[u-235-sentinel]

You should try it out by grabbing the DVD Install/LiveCD off of bittorrent here:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/dvd/current/

Disclaimer: My download will get faster if you do this.

Unless you're with Comcast. Then your screwed :D

Re:Another one

[DaveWick79]

If you want to go on the basis of included device drivers, Vista is far and away better than XP or any distro of Linux that I've tried. XP is hurt by the fact that MS has not updated the media since SP2 came out. Vista will eventually have the same problem. The bottom line is that, at least at this point 8 months from release, pretty much any device you can think of to put on a computer is supported by Vista out of the box. You can't say as much about Linux, and that's really the fault or choice of the device manufacturer more than it has anything to do with the OS.

Re:Another one

[JCSoRocks]

What're you talking about? I've played countless DVD's on my Vista box, all of them commercial movies. I'm not running any special software, I'm just using Windows Media Player.

Re:Another one

[Cjstone]

Just call it Ubuntu 7.10 I think "Gutsy Gibbon" and other such names are just their internal code-names (like longhorn, etc.)

Re:Another one

[mwlewis]

Yeah, yeah, I knew someone would say that (almost did myself).

Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: My download will get faster if you do this.

Not if you're on Comcast LOL!!

Re:Another one

[tommertron]

What's the difference between the Ubuntu CD and DVD? I noticed the DVD is 4.4 GB, but what are they filling up the rest of the space with? A full high-res movie of Nelson Mandela talking about Ubuntu, and a 5.1 surround mix of ubuntu sax.ogg?

Re:Another one

[sumdumass]

Programs, libraries, alternative kernels, drivers, and other stuff that would either need to be on another CD (CDs) or downloaded later from the Internet. I don't use Ubuntu so I cannot vouch for it personally, but the other distros I have used do this. I used to have about 2-3 hours of downloading programs I wanted installed after a traditional CD or FTP-network install, then all the updates that you would expect after installing from any fixed medium. After switching to a DVD install, I have found most of those programs and files already available locally. I'm sure there is a lot more packed in there then what I would use on a desktop install too.

So basically, it is all (a lot of) the other stuff you might want that wouldn't fit on a CD or reasonably sized CD set. I have also found source files outside an RMP source file (srpm) which makes some installs easier if you have to change some things.

Re:Another one

[tommertron]

Okay, I can see how that's a pretty good idea then.

I wonder though how the repositories work that way then? Would the package manager always point to the DVD for packages to install? Would the Internet repositories still be available or would the repo list need to be updated?

Re:Another one

[sumdumass]

Mandake/Mandriva's product didn't change all that much between the name change to mandriva after merging with conectix or whatever it was. the product was basically the same with a few improvements that you would normally see in between releases. I mean Mandrake is mandriva- Mandrake remained the company producing the product and changed their name. But they didn't abandon the product and start over, they kept the product and improved it.

That's sort of a pet rant I have. They are one in the same. It is like calling "windows 95" Chicago and then getting corrected because it is windows 95. But more to the point I was replying for. You mentioned RPM as if you didn't know about URPMI and Mandrake.

URPMI is mandrake's package manager that resolves most of the problems people have with rpms. Usually You can use it directly on an RMP built for simular setup like redhat or whatever. In short, it was available since 7.2 or 8.0 times and already did what you liked about debian causing you to end up sticking with debian for some time. Just like with debian and Ubuntu, you have the different repositories that you can set up. There is even a website that has been setup to help find repositories including official and non official ones.

Anyways, No to knock your choices, but as the GP said, I don't see anythign in ubuntu that Madriva doesn't offer and seem to do better. I don't know how long it will stay that way though, one of the Mandrake founders is supposedly working with the Ubuntu team now (has been for almost a year or so). But I think they will always trail Mandriva in a lot of ways. If you didn't know about URPMI and are in one of those checking things out moods again, you should look at some of the mandrake/mandriva offerings again.

Re:Another one

[sumdumass]

I'm not exactly sure how the repositories for Ubuntu work, but for the other distros I have used, they include the install media as a resource in the package manager's repository list. Some of the times, the Install media is copied to the hard drive during the install so it is more or less transparent when the package manager requests something on the install medium. Instead of asking for CD1 or CD3, it would just get it from the hard drive.

Something you might notice when looking for packages, is there might be more then one version, lets say for something like fetchmail. you might see fetchmail-6.2.13 and fetchmail-6.3.8 . If you select the newest version, it would pull from the Internet. If you select the older version which came on the install media, it would either ask for the CD containing it or install from the hard drive. There might even be a setting that hides older versions so if a newer version is available, you won't see the older one. My understanding is that you can have more then one repository setup. In mandriva, there is a thing called the PLF which deals with stuff that is somewhat questionable in freedom/legality and not officially supported by the distro. And when I say somewhat questionable, I mean stuff like NTFS drive support, stuff that might be free to use but not open source and so on. I don't mean illegal or anything like that. It looks like they are doing some work for Ubuntu so if it isn't already available, it might be soon.

Maybe someone with some experience with the mechanics Ubuntu uses can chime in with more accurate information. I'm basically going off of my experiences with other distros which I think the concepts should be the same even if the actually deliver is different.

Re:Another one

[BillOfThePecosKind]

Thats the whole point. At least I can do research to fix the problem (which is half the fun anyway).

Re:Another one

[tommertron]

Cool, thanks for the info. From my experience in Ubuntu, it sounds like the repositories and package manager would most likely work in a similar way. The DVD would definitely come in handy when there is no or slow Internet connection to the box you're working on.

Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you please list these programs, and the situations that they'll send info?

Re:Another one

[Stevecrox]

I own three copies of Vista, Vista Business, Vista Home Base and Vista Home Premium, all played DVD's out of the box.

The only thing those copies lacked was a driver for the individual wireless cards I own, I'd mod you troll but I since your that badly misinformed I thought it best to correct you.

I'm really starting to get hacked off with all the Vista FUD thats out there, only today in work anouther open source person was spouting the nonsense that Vista won't let you play Blu-ray disks.

Re:Another one

[Risen888]

Sure, along with the standard "compare default Linux install on some goofy fucking laptop with cracked-out hardware to an OEM Windows installation on hand-picked hardware." What is your point?

Re:Another one

[Max Littlemore]

URPMI is mandrake's package manager that resolves most of the problems people have with rpms. Usually You can use it directly on an RMP built for simular setup like redhat or whatever. In short, it was available since 7.2 or 8.0 times and already did what you liked about debian causing you to end up sticking with debian for some time. Just like with debian and Ubuntu, you have the different repositories that you can set up. There is even a website that has been setup to help find repositories including official and non official ones.

And yet I found it easier to solve dependancy issues without breaking something else. Last Mandrake I used was around 10 IIRC. It may be better now, but I'm not all that interested in looking anymore.

Re:Another one

[sumdumass]

And yet I found it easier to solve dependancy issues without breaking something else.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have never had urpmi break anything and I have been using mandrake since 8.0. Sometimes the default setting aren't right and you need to change a spec file or maybe the pachage it too old and you need to install a newer package. but this was easy and in both cases just needed a few changes. If you installed an old package or needed a special option passed you just uninstall the package with urpme, then either grab a newer RPM and point the urpmi directly at the RPM and it was done. Or you could still grab the source, pass your options at compile time and be done with it. No breaking of anything that I know of.

It sort of seemed like you were trolling about the "insane hassles of RPM" with mandrake 10.0 when claiming to be using mandrake. At first I thought this was because you didn't know about Mandrake's urpmi tools or maybe you just ignored all the websites talking about it (including mandrake's) and all that. Now I'm starting to think it is more the previous. You probably should have used redhat or fedora as a base to troll. but then your comment wouldn't have much relevance to the GP's statement on not finding anything in ubuntu that mandriva didn't already do better. I dunno what the truth is, it seems fishy to me but you already stated you won't attempt to try it so it is pointless to continue talking about it.

Re:Another one

[Max Littlemore]

Sometimes the default setting aren't right and you need to change a spec file or maybe the pachage it too old and you need to install a newer package.

Of course. Proves my point in part. The dependancy issues I was talking about were not so much the "can't satisfy that dependancy", but more along the lines of "installing this latest version of A depends on this version of B which depends on a version of C which depends on a different version of A then the one I'm installing and I didn't find out the depth of the problem until after I forced install. Then the rollback died in the arse, and I spent hours getting everything back to normal.

I could well have been doing it wrong, but despite the recalcitrant reputation of Debian users/devs, I found the information required to solve my problems easier to come by and I really never came across package situtations quite like I did with Mandrake.

I'm not trolling here, I encountered real problems and genuinely found them more difficult to fix. It has of course been ~5 years since I ditched Mandrake, so my memory of specifics is out, but it doesn't change the fact that I recall Mandrake with frustration and Debian with satisfaction.

I seem to have made a mistake in replying to the GGP, an off-topic troll who could have posted a "Why don't you just install Amiga OS?" type comment in response to a story about BBC Acorns to same effect. Replies will inevitably draw hordes of religious Amiga zealots, regardless of their relevance. Any comment along the lines of "it wasn't right for me" will be greeted with derision. Using colourful language will be called trolling.

Re:Another one

[sumdumass]

Well, the default settings being different or wrong is usually only when you need to pass something at compile time and so on. But you would need to know you needed to pass it at compile time in order to know that it wasn't working as expected which is strange if .deb packages can somehow figure that out. As for the dependency issues, I have never seen that happen at all while using urpmi. I have with just RPM. I have even updated some libraries and actually kept two versions going because I wanted to run something newer in an old system that I knew broke compatibility. Of course If I remember correctly, that was around the initial 2.6 kernel support and during the 2.4 transition to 2.6.

And I'm starting to think that the introduction of the 2.6 kernel in the mainstream mandrake products was around the 10. erra. So yea, switching to debian at that time would have fixed a lot of things because they were so slow to make the transition in the stable branches. In other words, they didn't start using th 2.6 kernel for some time after that in the stable branches.

I don't doubt you encountered real problems. I was doubting that they were actually what you thought they were and the fault of the distro. If you would have stuck with urpmi, the dependency issues wouldn't have happened, or to the degree that it seems like your making it out to be. You can literally use urpmi to install rpms and urpmi looks at a file inside the rpm and won't allow you to install incompatible libraries for your system. If the RPM requires LibXy and your system isn't compatible with that, urpmi will either not find LibXy or tell you it is for a different setup (which spent a good deal of time pissing me off once).

'm not trolling here, I encountered real problems and genuinely found them more difficult to fix. It has of course been ~5 years since I ditched Mandrake, so my memory of specifics is out, but it doesn't change the fact that I recall Mandrake with frustration and Debian with satisfaction.

Yea, I seen things like this before. But without specific distros. It is first distro sucks second one works. I have found it to be either a "it isn't windows" syndrome where people are just frustrated that they are pretty clueless in linux when they know there way around windows pretty well. They then take the knowledge they picked up from figuring out how to do something and apply it to the second distro and the frustrations isn't there. It is as if there is always a stigmata of the aggravation with the first distro. The other case is where someone told them how great something was only for you to find that they were exaggerating or at a skill level way beyond yours and you cannot get it to do anything like them. I have been victim of this when I first started mucking with linux.

If any of those two are remotely the case, it is sort of unfair to say distro X sucks because the entire set of problems are rooted in the connections between the keyboard and the seat. You can use any distro you want or even stick with windows. that isn't the point. What the GP said is true in that I too haven't found anything Ubuntu does that mandrake/mandriva doesn't already do better. I found it really odd that you were able to make claims that seemed like you didn't know about much of the strengths that are in mandrake so I replied.

Re:Another one

[cloakable]

Me. I'm running a LAMP box from my home network. It also has IMAP and SMTP, with fetchmail grabbing mail from my external accounts, forwarding to procmail, which does a bunch of sorting, with the end result all my email is available to any client I connect to the server, with mailing lists presorted. Very useful, IMO.

I agree

[LinuxGeek]

My laptop came with Vista and installed Ubuntu right after purchase. I use Ubuntu much more than my legally purchased windows copy, probably about 10:1 in favor of linux because vista pops up dialog boxes for way too much stuff. For instance, every boot creates about 10 dialog boxes that need to be confirmed. My cpu monitoring app, norton antivirus, etc... all have to be given permission to run, it really pisses me off. I haven't found a way to give permanent permission to those apps without turning UAE off, which strips out some very necessary protection. FU Microsoft.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon getting out of your way to let you work: $0

Windows Vista video ad playing under a slashdot article favouring Linux over Windows: Priceless

Re:I agree

[dedazo]

And this is Microsoft's fault, or of the companies who create applications that think they have the go of the entire box? Any application that plays nice with the filesystem/registry ACLs works perfectly well in Vista, the same way they worked on XP under non-privileged accounts.

I run Vista and quite frankly these alleged horror stories amuse me. It's not "slow", it doesn't pop up permission dialogs every five seconds, it didn't deactivate itself when I swapped the network card. After about three days of getting used to where everything was, I'm pretty much as comfortable using it as I was with XP. The only problem I had was a freeware Explorer clone that required elevated privileges, but I really don't use it that much so that's not a big deal. Vim, Komodo Edit, Visual Studio 2005, all my build/config/testing tools, etc. Everything works.

The guy that wrote this article should consider working for the Onion. It's hilarious that he can't seem to figure out how to shut down the computer. I mean, it's the first freaking button next to the search box, and it doesn't even ask for confirmation anymore. I leave the thing on all the time so I'm not big on the shutdown shortcuts, but whatever.

If he doesn't want to migrate to Vista, that's fine. More power to him. But these "opinion articles" with their "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different Control Panel - instead, I switched operating systems!" matra are just annoying and stupid.

Re:I agree

[DAldredge]

Funny when my Vista system boots I don't get any dialog boxes.

Re:I agree

[rustalot42684]

User Account Control
is not the same thing as
United Arab Emirates

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually that button doesn't shut down the computer. That button powers off the computer (usually). Yes, there's a difference.

Re:I agree

[B3ryllium]

... You run Norton? Your nerd card should be revoked.

Norton hasn't put out a good bit of software since Utilities for MS-DOS. :)

Re:I agree

[Zebra_X]

The button does what you configure it to do. The other options are available on the right arrow.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

To start admin tasks at login without Defender complaining, start them using the Task Scheduler.

Re:I agree

[Gordo_1]

That's cause Symantec acquired Peter Norton's company in 1990 in a mostly successful attempt to lend credibility to their crappy, resource-hogging security products.

Re:I agree

[Daengbo]

I, too keep hearing stories about how bad Vista is, and not just from Slashdot. Cranky Geeks (not a pro-Linux show) went on for five minutes last week about how useless it is.

Still, I walk into any computer store and see only Vista machines for meters and meters. The whole thinig confuses me.;)

Re:I agree

[General_Crespin]

For simple EXEs you want to run at startup, set them as a scheduled task in the Task Scheduler and to run as administrator IIRC.

Re:I agree

[Miltazar]

This is definitely not a popular opinion around here but here goes. I've used Vista, along with every other Windows OS ever to haunt our doorstep. I've also used many Linux distro's including Ubuntu Gutsy, Debian(personal preference of the Linux variety), Gentoo, Fedora, Redhat, CentOS, etc. I've been using Vista both at work and at home for about half a year now, and I have absolutely no problem with it.

Despite all the talk of new user friendliness with Ubuntu Gutsy I've yet to see it. My MXL USB Mic doesn't just work when I plug it in. I have to fiddle around with settings for a while. At work, I can't just easily interface with our Active Directory(yes its MS, but its what we use). Sure I've gotten all that working, but it took me a lot of searching and tweaking. Vista may have driver problems, but I've never encountered any major ones. With Linux however, every install is a new driver issue. When it comes down to it, Vista just works. Yes, I can get Linux working with everything, but I don't want to have to spend all that time on an OS when I can just use windows.

Also as a gamer I'm also unable to permanently switch to Linux. Wine works for some, but its just not good enough. I love Linux, but for now it just isn't ready to be my permanent OS. Despite all this trouble with Vista I hear about, I've yet to experience any of it. It runs perfectly on my machine.

When Linux has a dominant share of the market place, and games are put out strictly for Linux, then I'll switch.
Until then, Microsoft will still be king.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista's security is managed by an Amiga emulator?? No wonder the requirements are so high!

Re:I agree

[uglyduckling]

It's hilarious that he can't seem to figure out how to shut down the computer... But these "opinion articles" with their "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different Control Panel - instead, I switched operating systems!" matra are just annoying and stupid.

His point isn't that he couldn't figure it out, it's just that things were "arbitrarily different" - changed for the point of change rather than any great enhancement. Sure he could figure out a different Control Panel, but it's annoying to have to do that for no actual gain.

I think what we're actually seeing here is people who don't have any particular need for the unique strengths of Windows (and it does have some) and could do well with any of the alternative mainstream OSs. See, they already "switched operating systems" going from XP to Vista, and the feedback I'm hearing is that the effort of relearning familiar things makes the jump from XP to Ubuntu seem no worse. Actually, I even get the impression that for some the idea of injecting some excitement into their computer usage by exploring a new OS with different strengths and weeknesses is quite attractive compared to relearning Windows in order to go back to what they already new.

Am I way off the mark here? I've been using Debian then Ubuntu near exclusively for 6 years so I'm actually quite looking forward to having a play with Vista just to see if there's anything about a new Microsoft OS that I find attractive. I installed XP on a machine for my sister 3 weeks ago and it took 4 hours worth of downloading drivers and updates just to get to the stage where I could start installing apps (c.f. Ubuntu less than 1 hour for a fully loaded OS+apps) so I'm pretty sure XP is of no value to me from the 'enjoying using the computer' viewpoint unless I need to run some Windows-only software.

If you use a computer for fun, or for work but like to have fun, Ubuntu is great. Quick to install on new hardware, new release every 6 months with new features, improvements and eye candy if you like that sort of thing. Loads of little apps to choose between for virtually any task, all ready to install from official repositories, properly signed etc.

Re:I agree

[PitaBred]

You should blame Microsoft for not allowing Linux to interoperate with it, not support them for their monopolistic behavior. Also, consider using Linux-friendly hardware when you're trying to run Linux. Or do you expect Windows to work on your old Amiga?

Re:I agree

[hedwards]

And this is Microsoft's fault, or of the companies who create applications that think they have the go of the entire box? Any application that plays nice with the filesystem/registry ACLs works perfectly well in Vista, the same way they worked on XP under non-privileged accounts. It is MS' fault that you don't get to choose what gets installed by default without having to resort to winnt.sif hacking. I don't know what the equivalent for vista is, but that's been the way to do it for quite a while.

I would say that it is their fault for allowing programs to utilize the entirity of the computer's resources. Vista, if memory serves, does a better job than XP did, but that isn't saying a lot. When I had my old vaio laptop, the anti-virus program that came installed by default would immediately use up 99% of the processor time regardless of what I as the end user chose to do. And that was without doing anything at all.

I run Vista and quite frankly these alleged horror stories amuse me. It's not "slow", it doesn't pop up permission dialogs every five seconds, it didn't deactivate itself when I swapped the network card. After about three days of getting used to where everything was, I'm pretty much as comfortable using it as I was with XP. The only problem I had was a freeware Explorer clone that required elevated privileges, but I really don't use it that much so that's not a big deal. Vim, Komodo Edit, Visual Studio 2005, all my build/config/testing tools, etc. Everything works.

I was shocked that vista ran almost as fast as XP on my circa 2004 computer with only 512 of ram. At times, such as when I was copying large collections of files or accessing the disk, the hiccups were far less noticeable than they are on XP. The speed at which vista ran was far more consistent than under XP. Of course I had to switch all of the eye candy off, but I do that for XP as well, and I don't think that I've had better performance on outdated hardware than I did with vista.

If he doesn't want to migrate to Vista, that's fine. More power to him. But these "opinion articles" with their "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different Control Panel - instead, I switched operating systems!" matra are just annoying and stupid.

I think the issue with the turning off the computer is just the ridiculous number of options. Its been a while since I used vista, but it seemed at the time there were quite a few options, including a couple of versions of sleep and full off. But its been a year, so my memory might not be correct.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

You are totally making that up about things like Symantec AV needing to be given rights to run. Probably your (completely uneeded) CPU monitoring app might need this because it is written incorrectly - but the AV that came with your notebook sure as hell doesn't. If you have 10 dialog boxes to OK admin actions at every boot/logon then you have YOURSELF loaded up a bunch of CrapWare. I guarantee you the notebook manufacturer didn't ship it that way.
 
  Here, we have three notebooks running Vista (purchased with Vista) and one older machine wiped and loaded with Vista and they only give those prompts for things you would expect like App Installs, running regedit, etc. My wife and kids almost NEVER see a UAC prompt. I see them several times a day, because I hack around on the system. But 2 or 4 a day is not "10 at every boot".
 
  Quit making this stuff up, or learn to use the OS and don't load crap programs.

Re:I agree

[sqrt(2)]

Ghost is actually very good. Saved me a lot of time and effort. Do you know of an open source solution that's as good or better (needs all the features found in Norton Ghost)?

Re:I agree

[Shuh]

The guy that wrote this article should consider working for the Onion. It's hilarious that he can't seem to figure out how to shut down the computer. I mean, it's the first freaking button next to the search box, and it doesn't even ask for confirmation anymore. I leave the thing on all the time so I'm not big on the shutdown shortcuts, but whatever.

Your mentioning this reminded me of the articles Jerry Pournelle used to write for Byte magazine. You could always count on Jerry to pen a long screed on the fallout from the newest upgrade to Windows. It was hilarious because of his 2 or 3 computers and various peripherals, one or two would invariably end up with some major malfunction. From that point on, the article became a Legendary Win-Hell Tale of Woe that often ended in Mr. Pournelle getting help directly from the President/CEO of one of the tech companies associated with the failing subsystems, drivers, or parts. Even then a happy ending was no guarantee. Byte magazine was no Apple or Linux fan-mag, but Pournelle's column read like Apple-fanboi Windows satire of the highest calibre.

Re:I agree

[Neuropol]

I believe he was referring to the hotkey (Ctrl[or Alt]-U(x2) (which ever it is, I don't recall been almost 2 years since I've run Winders of any kind) option which, according to what he wrote, is missing in Vista. I don't know.

I've only peeked at Vista for all of maybe 2 minutes before I was reaching for a Ubuntu loaded machine - all while shaking my head at the inherent graphical bloat they've added to Vista knowing that the stuff they're trying to pull off has been Linux norm for years now.

Re:I agree

[vux984]

I installed XP on a machine for my sister 3 weeks ago and it took 4 hours worth of downloading drivers and updates just to get to the stage where I could start installing apps.

Were you using a disc from circa 2002? A lot has changed since then. XP has had a lot added and fixed since then. If you are using an up to date slipstreamed XP SP2 disc, the patch process doesn't take unduly long.

(c.f. Ubuntu less than 1 hour for a fully loaded OS+apps)

Were you using a disc from circa 2002? I dare ya, grab a Ubuntu Breezy Badger disc as your starting point, install it, and then patch it up to Gutsy. See how long that takes you. I bet it would be faster, to boot from the Breezy live CD, and use it to download Gutsy in its entirety, and then install from that.

so I'm pretty sure XP is of no value to me from the 'enjoying using the computer' viewpoint unless I need to run some Windows-only software.

Because you need to install your system from scratch on a regular basis? Might I recommend some basic backup and restore software?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big advocate of Ubuntu too. I've even got my Mom using it. But these anecdotal comparisons are stacked. And for every "I installed Ubuntu in an hour while XP took 4 hours" anecdote there are a dozen, "my Ubuntu Live CD won't even boot". (I had that very problem with my 8800GTS.) And I spent HOURS with the wifi on my Mom's laptop before it would finally connect using WPA. (c.f. XP SP2, which worked out of the box and was connected to the wifi within 2 minutes.)

Both OSes have strengths and weaknesses. My Mom is on Ubuntu quite frankly, because the WinME she had was worse than death, and really, both XP and Ubuntu were good upgrade options. Ubuntu won out based on price more than anything. She was already using Firefox / OpenOffice / Gaim so for her the differences were pretty nominal.

Re:I agree

[m94mni]

I bet it would be faster, to boot from the Breezy live CD, and use it to download Gutsy in its entirety, and then install from that.

Yeah, wish I could do the same in Windows....

Seriously - this kind of convenience is one of the major benefits of using Linux.

Re:I agree

[LingNoi]

You have to consider that for some people it is the opposite.

For example I have an old TV card. It's the only old thing I have in my machine because well.. why would I throw away a perfectly good TV card. It won't work for me in windows because the company have gone on to produce different TV cards and don't want to write drivers for old products.

So for me it's the opposite Ubuntu works out of the box with my Hardware where Windows does not. My girlfriend has had real problems getting her Microphone working on windows (opposite to your experience) for use with Skype.

I think it's just you were unlucky with your hardware configuration working on Ubuntu, just as how my girlfriend is unlucky with her hardware configuration working on windows.

I am also a gamer but I fail to see your issues, I have never really had the problems you have described getting windows games to work and there are lots of fun Linux games (tremulous, Battle for wesnoth, Warsow), why not try some out? If you look at the new games coming out Rage, Unreal Tournament, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars all have their own Linux binary and there are lots of commercial games on Linux too (Americas Army, RTCW: Enemy Territory, Doom 3, Quake 4). If you look at the major MMOs such as World of Warcraft and Eve Online they're playable through wine. My own experience with getting Guildwars working with wine was very positive.. I downloaded the small Guildwars.exe program and then did "wine GuildWars.exe". It just worked, no configuration problems at all. It downloaded the programs files and popped up the Guildwars login screen, just like windows.

As for your Microsoft compatibility problems well that is what you have to expect. If you want compatibility with both operating systems with your servers then I suggest slowly replacing your window's server programs with open source programs. You'll find they're more compatible on both operating systems and any staff using windows shouldn't notice any difference if you're changing their server software. Of course this all depends on it being done right. : )

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Accept that the shortcuts in the new control panel clearly layout the most direct routes to previously buried items that needed to be drilled down to. The greatest UI improvement over XP being the wireless networking, which is just lightyears better.

Yeah Ubuntu is great, do I still have to find, download, compile and install READLINE? Yeah, XP, and presumably vista has a lot of drivers to download to get the fullest and latest functionality out of one's hardware. It can take hours even on a cable modem, I have no doubt. But it beats the fuck out of finding obscure items, and their dependancies, then downloading, compiling, installing, and configuring. Off a command-line as opposed to a Setup.exe.

I like linux (prefer KDE for a WM though, mainly because Konq rocks my socks and Nautalis is ass). And btw, why is linux still a pain in the ass to install on laptops? Really, more than 50% computers sold are laptops, and they don't have a video configuration method that obviates "give up and die" as a solution to little hiccups? But it runs ok, if a little slow, after the necessary setup period for linux in virtual pc 2007 on my vista laptop, so I can't be too mad.

Re:I agree

[ragefan]

Ghost is actually very good. Saved me a lot of time and effort. Do you know of an open source solution that's as good or better (needs all the features found in Norton Ghost)? Yeah, dd (using just about any LiveCD) :^)

Has always worked for me when ghost hasn't. YMMV.

Re:I agree

[trolltalk.com]

dd does everything you'll ever need, from making backup images of partitions or whole drives, to restoring only portions of adrive (say, your boot sector or partition table), and you can always output the file to another machine on your local lan (or anywhere in the world with a net connection) rather than to a cd /dvd.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

I concur, Ghost is a huge time saver. We use it in our QA lab and every machine has every mutation of Windows on it. Soo nice to be able to totally screw up an install or the OS and just shrug and pop the ghost floppy in the drive.

Re:I agree

[gfxguy]

I agree; long ago when I switched from linux back to windows, it was because I wanted to actually do stuff (mostly play games, I suppose) and not do system administration. Times have changed a great deal, and when I do actual work-work (as opposed to my personal video editing and playing games), I always use Linux. I can't believe how far it's come along and I'm really impressed with it. I've been using Linux nearly exclusively for work and at home for about two years.

But when I couldn't get something to work in the past, the Linux zealots would always blame me for not finding the right driver, the right dependencies, the right dependencies for the dependencies, etc., and compiling it myself. Sorry, that's not how I want to spend my time.

On the other hand, I do believe Linux, Ubuntu is what I've been using for six months or so, is simply just as good as Windows XP. I do have a Vista upgrade, I just don't care to install it right now. But I've found that a lot of drivers actually worked out of the box with Ubuntu that didn't with XP. My video card works out of the box with Ubuntu, but requires manual installation of drivers for Windows. My network cards (both wireless on my laptop and built in ethernet) just worked on Linux. I'm not saying it's all happiness.. I often have problems with built in audio. Now, so does windows, but there's no drivers for Linux on that motherboard disc. And it's not like it's a huge deal for Windows, either - because after installing Windows, you just pop in the MB CD and you're off.

Now, you might call a comparison with the just released Linux and XP unfair, since XP's been around for years. But I'm comparing it with XP with the latest service packs and all.

The other great thing, for people that keep changing things around (like me), is that you can just go and download the latest Linux distributions. With XP, I have my XP cd, I have to install it, then spend hours downloading all the patches and upgrades. The difference is that if I install on more than one machine, I have to repeat the process for each XP machine. With Linux, I use the same disc over and over.

This is the punishment legal purchasers of Windows get.

So I agree with you to an extent... I use Windows for games and video editing (sorry, just not happy with what is available on Linux so far), but I have just as many problems with Windows as I do with Linux, and often the solution is actually easier in Linux.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

fanboy

Re:I agree

[monkeySauce]

And this is Microsoft's fault, or of the companies who create applications that think they have the go of the entire box?

Well, for years that was standard for Microsoft operating systems. It's only been relatively recently that Microsoft has started to change that. Has Microsoft worked with or pushed software developers enough to ensure their products conform to the new security model? How about disallowing the ones that don't from displaying the Microsoft logo on their products, etc? No, they haven't? Then what is their excuse, lack of funds?

Any application that plays nice with the filesystem/registry ACLs works perfectly well in Vista, the same way they worked on XP under non-privileged accounts.

Who the fuck used non-privileged accounts in XP, besides huge corporations? 'Power user' was usable for many people but for some reason it was hidden away from 2000 to XP. I know several people who tried to use limited accounts in XP, but they gave up and turned back to administrator. It just wasn't practical; too many things will not run that way. And if you are a gamer you can just forget it right now.

Re:I agree

[sqrt(2)]

Has to work inside of Windows on an automatic schedule; that means no booting off a Linux live CD.

Re:I agree

[uglyduckling]

Were you using a disc from circa 2002? A lot has changed since then. XP has had a lot added and fixed since then... I dare ya, grab a Ubuntu Breezy Badger disc as your starting point, install it, and then patch it up to Gutsy. See how long that takes you.

Right now when I have an empty machine in front of me, what shall I do with it? I need to access the web, write spreadsheet and text documents and sync my iPod. The comparisons are valid - right now Microsoft actively sells two desktop operating systems: XP (grudgingly) and Vista. XP is old, out of date, a pain to install and keep working properly. Vista is expensive, is a resource hog, and as the article said is different for difference' sake. Ubuntu is up-to-date, easy to install, easy to keep working properly and comes with a ton of applications right out of the box.

I don't need to compare Breezy with XP because I'm comparing what's available now - the two supported MS desktop OSs and a Linux offering. Comparing 'the Live CD doesn't boot' stories is an unfair comparison - there's plently of dodgy hardware that has problems with XP. If you compare installs on working mainstream hardware Linux versus XP you will always get a fully-loaded Ubuntu system up and running whilst XP is still rebooting for the nth update.

I have a little hobby gathering old PCs, sorting them out and redistributing them to impoverished family members, students and even some local charities. I'm beginning to really wonder what OS I will send them out with in a year's time. I do now have a slipstreamed XP SP2 CD but I'll eat my hat if that's up and running fully patched before Ubuntu on the same box.

Re:I agree

[danlyke]

Huh. I don't know what's going on, but the other day I sat down on the couch to fire up Vista. Turned on the laptop, selected that option from the Grub menu, went into the kitchen, came back, it got to the login screen. I entered my password.

Just about the time I pressed enter, my sweety came in and turned on her computer. It booted and she was logged in to a usable desktop before Vista had gotten me from the login prompt to the desktop.

I'm guessing there's some errant process that's looking for something network related and timing out or something, but I've no clue how to track it down. Might be time to re-install Vista, but I've only had the bloody thing for a few months, and only used it to write an installer for a friend's software, so aside from removing a lot of the adware that came with it I think I've only put Visual C# Express and NSIS on it.

And I really don't look forward to putting a Microsoft OS on a dual-boot machine as the second install.

Admittedly it comes up really fast from hibernate, but since I usually boot into Ubuntu and hibernate leaves the drives dirty so I can't mount 'em from the Linux side, I try to not do that (ie: it's not the first button next to the search box, at least by default).

Re:I agree

[r3m0t]

Well, if you have a legitimate copy of Windows XP or even XP SP2, how are you going to get a new CD? You know, one with the last four years of drivers included? Oh yeah, you can't. Unless you create your own by slipstreaming which is probably more effort than it's worth.

I have here a legitimate copy of breezy/hoary/whatever. How am I going to get a new CD with all the latest hardware support? Well, I could download it from any working computer I have that also has a disc burner. I could install a just-about-working feisty (networking but not necessarily sound, graphics and other niceties) and then use that to download and burn a gutsy ISO. Or if I have a computer with a CD writer and another disc drive, I can keep the Live CD in one drive and write a CD using the other.

Or I could buy it from a slightly out-of-the-way location at a nominal cost, or get a free copy shipped in about 8 weeks.

So in other words, the legitimate comparison is "what you can easily get now to install XP" (i.e. your old discs) against "what you can easily get now to install ubuntu" (i.e. new discs from the internet)

Re:I agree

[vux984]

Seriously - this kind of convenience is one of the major benefits of using Linux.

They already know the media is worthless, and they know that anyone who wants one can get one trivially (which is why the vista upgrade won't accept a "CD in the drive" as proof), so restricting them is pointless. I think they know that, and that it won't be long before they go to digital distribution of the media.

Of course being microsoft they'll shoot themselves in the foot, make the priviledge of downloading it a paid subscription service, and set it up so that you have to be logged into MSN messenger on a genuine advantage validated PC to do it...

And -THAT- is the benefit of using linux. Its FREE! both as in liberty and as in beer.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use the Local Security Policy dialog to automatically elevate applications while keeping features like Protected Mode in IE7.

And honestly, aside from the aforementioned Protected Mode, disabling UAC doesn't really affect anything else. Just do it.

Re:I agree

[Kalriath]

Yeah, but that lends credibility to his statement - Symantec BOUGHT Ghost, not made it. A New Zealand company, Binary Research, made it (oh wow, it's still developed in Auckland).

Re:I agree

[Poromenos1]

Well, Microsoft tried to turn Vista into Linux (better security, though implemented stupidly, broken backwards compatibility, etc etc). If you're going to run Linux and have some of your old programs not working, you might as well run the free, good version instead of Microsoft's proprietary crap. I think the release of Vista (combined with the success of Ubuntu) will make many many people move to Linux. I like this, because for 95% of people Linux is good enough (email, internet, movies/music), and for the other 5% it's better (most interesting, i.e. non-corporate, development happens there). Myself, I use Windows because I can't get used to the GUI for some reason, although these days I spend more and more of my time in consoles (either ssh to the linux server or a Cygwin shell).

Re:I agree

[The MAZZTer]

Scheduled Tasks can run its tasks elevated without a UAC prompt. One of the triggers for a task can be to run when a user logs on.

Re:I agree

[budgenator]

Jerry Pournelle was great, I always read his column first, and computer companies always sent him equipment and software to review because Jerry could break anything, and if your stuff could survive Chaos Manner, you were made. He's on the web at Chaos Manor Reviews if your jonesing for a fix of Jerry.

Re:I agree

[kcbrown]

I, too keep hearing stories about how bad Vista is, and not just from Slashdot. Cranky Geeks (not a pro-Linux show) went on for five minutes last week about how useless it is.

Still, I walk into any computer store and see only Vista machines for meters and meters. The whole thinig confuses me.;)

It's not confusing at all. What you're seeing is the direct result of Microsoft really being in a monopoly position. People can deny it all they want ("Microsoft doesn't have 100% of the desktop, so they can't be a monopoly!!"), but Microsoft's ability to bend the market against the wishes of the customer and the retailer is precisely what makes them a monopoly.

Your observation is just confirmation of that.

Re:I agree

[sunahama]

You must be new here.

Re:I agree

[guhknew]

I bought a laptop that came with Vista preinstalled. I was going to make an honest effort, despite the fact that it seems to be considerably slower than XP (and I don't see how you could possibly think otherwise). However, I quickly found out that the operating system that the damned hardware came with did not work properly with the hardware. After researching the issue, it appeared to be a poorly written driver and after hours of trying various versions of the driver, including the XP driver which supposedly did work, and trying various strange options and registry hacks suggested by Microsoft, it became apparent that the only way to use my wireless card would be to use a different operating system.

Getting Windows XP on the laptop turned out to be more difficult than it should have been (which seems to be the case on newer hardware these days), but it runs flawlessly with full support for all of my hardware. I also threw Ubuntu on it half expecting most of the hardware to be unsupported or difficult to get to work properly, but everything worked fine, including the wireless card I was having issues with.

It's kind of a shame too, I really like the look and feel of Vista, and aside from performance and driver issues, it seems like they finally got quite a few things right in this version of Windows.

Re:I agree

[vux984]

You are *significantly* overstating the difficulty of creating a slipstream disc.

Microsoft will also ship you replacement discs for a nominal shipping/handing fee, unless you have OEM discs, in which you should be able to get them from your OEM (and if not, its your shitty OEM, not Microsoft who is at fault.)

I agree neither is as good as what Ubuntu offers, but its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be either. And for most people a half dozen hours of automated patching up from an old disc beats waiting a week for a new one in the mail.

Re:I agree

[1001011010110101]

This thread has been officially invaded by Microsoft fan boys with moderation points.

Re:I agree

[dedazo]

It's only been relatively recently that Microsoft has started to change that.

Um, you mean 1996 when NT4 was first released?

Has Microsoft worked with or pushed software developers enough to ensure their products conform to the new security model?

Yes, but they can't force anyone to do anything, except to break their apps in Vista, which they've mostly avoided by creating a faux storage system for places like /Program Files and the machine-specific areas of the registry. It's quite ingenuous, actually. Works well for older apps that must have INI files in their installation directories, for example.

How about disallowing the ones that don't from displaying the Microsoft logo on their products, etc?

You mean that "Designed for Windows" thing? Not assuming an admin account was one of the requirements for that, so I doubt there are many apps out there with the logo that don't work in Vista because of that, specifically.

Who the fuck used non-privileged accounts in XP, besides huge corporations?

My sister and my mom, for about five years, I'm sure besides many others that took the time to make the change. Happily, if I might add.

it was hidden away from 2000 to XP.

You mean OEMs shipped with an admin account by default, which is not quite the same.

And if you are a gamer you can just forget it right now.

You might be right. The few (admittedly older and simpler) games I did run under non-admin accounts on XP ended up working OK after tweaking a few ACLs. But most 'normal' users wouldn't know how to do that.

Re:I agree

[balthan]

You must be a Microsoft shill, then.

Re:I agree

[Kalriath]

He's definitely lying, too, because if a program that runs at boot needs UAC to elevate it, Windows doesn't start it and you get a single balloon from Windows Defender in the taskbar telling you that Windows didn't start some of your startup programs because they require elevation. I know, because I had Windows do that to me when I set Proxomitron to start at startup (I think they've adopted the Unixy policy of requiring "root" level access to use well-known ports).

Re:I agree

[ILongForDarkness]

Both XP and linux are good options I have both, and like both. Linux updates apps to the latest version much nicer, in that you don't have to get a disc in the mail, go through the update, where as a lot of companies (eg. Matlab) mail the upgrade discs so your at least a week behind, and some installers are really stupid and reinstall the whole app, or at least it feels that way. XP, much easier to find drivers for, and as far as drivers go, tend to have better installers than their linux counterparts IMHO. Anyways, shy of device issues, both would be a matter of automated updates, which really shouldn't count against the OS as for most of them you can still be using the system.

Re:I agree

[miknix]

Same as me. In the same day I received the new Vista based laptop, I checked out it's new features. After poking around Vista's Media Center (Maybe the only good thing I saw), I installed gentoo on it and migrated my ~home dir and system configs from my old laptop..
After two days (yes.. gentoo takes time) I had my new laptop working exactly as my old laptop used to work.

Besides all obvious things which makes Linux better than windows the thing which keeps impressing me is the used memory by system:
- On windows right after booting I have about 910Mb/2Gb of RAM used by system (not including cache).
- On Gentoo with XFCE WM I have right after booting about 260Mb/2Gb of RAM being used by system (not including cache) with email client, messenger, firefox (note firefox and not browser :p) and consoles opened.

I kept Vista for a month for playing games. But since I'm back to University I don't have time to game, also there is a excellent game called tremulous http://tremulous.net/ that runs natively on Linux.

What happened to Vista? Vista isn't anymore bootable on this machine, I needed space for my /home partition.

Just wanted to share the life cycle of Vista on a Linux user computer. :D

PS:For those looking for a perfect laptop for running Linux:
Let me recommend the HP Pavilion dv6535ep Laptop.

Re:I agree

[pherthyl]

And this is Microsoft's fault, or of the companies who create applications that think they have the go of the entire box?

It's mostly the application devs' fault. Not that who's fault it is makes one iota of difference. The end result is that it's incredibly annoying and I wouldn't want to use it.
Just like no-one cares that lack of driver support on Linux is not really Linux's fault.

Re:I agree

[Daengbo]

Actually, Vista is a selling point in Korea. People are excited about it.

Re:I agree

[vux984]

I don't need to compare Breezy with XP because I'm comparing what's available now - the two supported MS desktop OSs and a Linux offering.

That was my point you weren't. You were comparing an XP SP'zero' to the latest version of Ubuntu. If you had the latest version of XP it would have been a fairer comparison. It takes me less than half an hour to patch from a recent SP2 disc.

Comparing 'the Live CD doesn't boot' stories is an unfair comparison - there's plently of dodgy hardware that has problems with XP.

Sorry, but a brand name nvidia 8800GTS is not in the same category as 'dodgy hardware'. I agree there is lots of fringe generic crap out there, and XP has its share of problems. But that's about as mainstream as you can get. It just not the same as not being able to get XP working with some 8 year old Win98 MFP scanner/printer/fax that some company congealed.

XP (grudgingly) and Vista. XP is old, out of date, a pain to install and keep working properly, Vista is expensive, is a resource hog, and as the article said is different for difference' sake. Ubuntu is up-to-date, easy to install, easy to keep working properly and comes with a ton of applications right out of the box.

I'm drowning in your bias.

Your complaint against XP is that its 'old' and 'out of date', yet its been refreshed significantly twice and SP3 is expected to arrive soon. Provided you are working from a recent SP2 disc with USB2, common Gigabit chipsets, common SATA controllers, and other modern hardware support installation is not generally difficult at all. In other words, I call bullshit.

Your complaint against Vista is that its expensive? Really? Its cheaper than XP, unless you want Ultimate and its not like the price of XP went up recently. And ultimate? Its basically MCE which didn't even exist at retail. XP Home is about the same price as Vista Home Premium, and Vista Business so far seems cheaper than XP Pro. Compared to Ubuntu, maybe its expensive, and I'll give you that, but then so was XP before it, and 2k before that; -- hardly a flaw of 'vista'.

Your 2nd was that it was a resource hog. And that's valid. Don't put vista on older or marginal hardware. Stick with XP or Ubuntu. But on a new core 2 duo with 2GB of ram, and a fast video card, vista is perfectly snappy. Should it need that much to be snappy? No. Is linux snappier on much less hardware, yes. But if you've got the hardware, Vista runs just fine.

Your last compaint against vista is absurd: that its 'different than XP'. Well, la-di-da. Ubuntu is arbitrarily different from XP too, yet you don't complain about that. And XP is hardly the ideal we should all be striving for anyways. Personally, I -like- a number of the differences. The add remove programs is -better-, the start menu is -better-, the networking control panel/network places/etc is better although there is a learning curve from XP. The reorganization of the control panels was needless, but 'worse'? No, just different. And is Ubuntu better at control panel/gui configuration organization? Hell no. One can learn it, and get used to it, but its as arbitrary as the others, and lacks the consistency you get in windows. Display settings for example... half of them are X, half of them are in Ruby Compiz, a few more them are somewhere else with no links between them take the user from one to the next... sure it makes sense if you understand the layers and role of each layer in the linux windowing system... but its pretty messed up in terms of being logical from a non-technical end user. And don't get me started on the idiosyncracies of getting multiple monitors working 'just so'.

And ubuntu? up to date? ok. But so is Vista, and even XP can be brought up to date fairly easily. But sure Ubuntu is the best on this front.

Easy to install? Have you installed Vista? A 6 year old who'd never touched a computer before could probably make it through. Ubuntu is -great- for anything that just works, but what about stuff that doesn't. Windows pr

Re:I agree

[B3ryllium]

Ghost is very good - at least, the bootable Non-Windows version on the older Ghost CD I have is.

So far as I can tell, the Windows-based one is useless crap for recovery - or for cloning Linux partitions, which is (perhaps ironically) my one major use for it. And I don't even do it that way any more.

Re:I agree

[UncleTogie]

Still, I walk into any computer store and see only Vista machines for meters and meters.

Are those the smaller mom 'n' pop stores, or the chains? We're still dropping XP on almost every box that goes out the door...

Re:I agree

[Das Modell]

It's not "slow."

It's painfully and unbearably slow.

It doesn't pop up permission dialogs every five seconds.

No, it pops up permission dialogs every four seconds. There's almost nothing you can do without UAE prompting you twice about it.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who sets people who love porn a little too much up on linux (malware), the single biggest probelm is no one likes any of the video players much. (I hold out hope that real networks for all their flaws may solve this.) Trouble playing wmv files. (which the mono team and silverlight may ultimately address). Most critically perhaps is the lack of a Quicken replacement.

For me though, the killer app this time around for windows is OneNote. Simply dominates. For me, my secret dream, is rolling my own FreeBSD with video editing, ACLs, and a web 2.0 app (somewhere) that can closely and simply approximate the convienece of OneNote; to go with a new multi TB home media server.

Re:I agree

[guabah]

Try setting the permissions on the program folders and relevant registry entries(regedit32) so authenticated users or everyone can write to them.

Re:I agree

[Endo13]

Right. So because you're lucky enough to not experience some of the annoyances about Vista, that means it's not possible for anyone else (possibly even the majority of everyone else) to? I knew people who liked Windows ME too, and said they never had problems with it. We all know how good that OS was.

So I'll take your 1 anecdote and raise you a few dozen. By far the majority of the "made for Vista" machines I've had to work on, and help set up new for customers had issues with slow performance, as well as all the other complaints made in TFA.

The guy that wrote this article should consider working for the Onion. It's hilarious that he can't seem to figure out how to shut down the computer. I mean, it's the first freaking button next to the search box, and it doesn't even ask for confirmation anymore. I leave the thing on all the time so I'm not big on the shutdown shortcuts, but whatever. Are you that stupid? Really? Seriously? He didn't say he couldn't figure out how to shut it down. He gave it as one small example of all the annoying little changes they made in Vista simply for the sake of change, rendering a lot of the old quick and familiar shortcuts we use in XP useless in Vista. And the majority of these changes don't improve anything in any way. Perhaps you need to take some logic and reading comprehension courses?

Not only is your comment not "informative", it's pretty much the polar opposite. But I guess some people thrive on spreading misinformation.

Re:I agree

[kwandar]

Somebody intelligent said it earlier .... the answer is virtualization.

Re:I agree

[remitaylor]

It's hilarious that he can't seem to figure out how to shut down the computer... But these "opinion articles" with their "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different Control Panel - instead, I switched operating systems!" matra are just annoying and stupid.

I've been using Windows since good old Windows 3.1, and MS's operating systems (MS-DOS) before that. I've administered NT, 2000, and 2003 Windows servers. I'm not bragging - rather, I'm making the case that I'm not an idiot and I've used and administered most of Windows' operating systems.

2 days ago, I got a new workstation with Vista on it and I decided to use it for a little while, to give it a second chance (the first time I got a workstation with Vista, it blue screened within 5 minutes - I was simple trying to change the styles to look like Windows 'Classic' ... I'm not kidding ... less than 5 minutes to BSOD and I wasn't doing anything to try to crash it).

So I tried to get the Vista box on our network ... it took me *15 minutes* to figure out how to set a Static IP ... *AND* I had to call over a buddy to help me with it. We tried every view of the control panel, tried different sections, tried clicking everything in the network section ... we never did find a screen that shows all network devices, as they are in other versions of Windows ... I eventually find my way to a property dialog and got to the right screen that way. Later, I couldn't find how to restart it (as you mention)! I was stunned how unintuitive everything was.

Hilarious, though it may be ... I, too, installed Ubuntu (7.10 Gutsy Gibbon) after about an hour of trying to give Vista a second shot.

While you can't learn a whole OS in one hour, it's at least easy to figure out how to do things in all other Windows OSes, as well as with Macs (I administer a few for our designers) and just about any desktop Linux distro (I can't speak for them all as I haven't tried them all ... but Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, DSL, Puppy Linux, and many other are all easier to work with, in my opinion, than Vista).

This is my first time using linux for my workstation at work (been using Ubuntu at home since 6.06) ... and I couldn't be happier :)

Re:I agree

[Daengbo]

All of them in Korea. I guess they want to appear as up-to-date as possible

Re:I agree

[remitaylor]

I should've also mentioned - I'm a .NET developer, so I've got a big reason to use Windows instead of linux. To me, that makes my switch to linux even more meaningful. Not only do a prefer linux over Windows ... I prefer a linux environment over Windows for programming MS .NET!

Re:I agree

[trolltalk.com]

Has to work inside of Windows on an automatic schedule;

http://www.cygwin.com/ Very handy ... hope that helps.

Re:I agree

[Winckle]

cygwin + cron job.

Re:I agree

[sqrt(2)]

Thanks for the suggestion, but adding another layer of complexity and obfuscation really wouldn't help. The only solution that would work is a native windows app, and having a GUI is important too, although not critical.

Re:I agree

[monkeySauce]

Um, you mean 1996 when NT4 was first released?

The average user never used NT4 WS, which meant there was much less development that targeted it. It wasn't until Windows 2000 that Microsoft's de facto OS required developers to rethink their apps. Up until then they DID have run of the system (win9x).

Yes, but they can't force anyone to do anything, except to break their apps in Vista,

Yet that would seem a pretty effective way to compel developers to do things properly, no? Assuming they ignore guidelines and refuse more polite requests, why should one expect anything else?

You mean that "Designed for Windows" thing? Not assuming an admin account was one of the requirements for that, so I doubt there are many apps out there with the logo that don't work in Vista because of that, specifically.

I don't know the details of the designed for windows program. My point is that Microsoft has just a little bit of influence in the market and I think they could do more, one way or another, if they felt like it.

My sister and my mom, for about five years,

If they aren't in IT and they configured restricted accounts for themselves without being told to do so by you or someone else in the know, then kudos to them. I firmly believe they are the exception though. 100% of the non-corporate XP machines I encounter (which I did not set up) are using an administrator account for everyday use.

You mean OEMs shipped with an admin account by default, which is not quite the same.

No. I mean that the "power user" level account had been no more difficult to configure than a [standard/limited] user or administrator account in Windows 2000, but come Windows XP, the only obvious account types presented to the user were limited or administrator. Making an account a member of the "power users" group on XP is pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't already know how to do it. I don't know why the "power user" was relegated to obscurity in XP. I found it to be a reasonable balance between running as a limited user and an administrator.

Re:I agree

[DaveWick79]

I think you're right, we'll soon be going to digital distribution - however I don't think MS will charge for it, but they probably will require the silly 'Live' account to do it. Really, you should be able to input your product key, go to the download page, and get the latest ISO with all the current updates and drivers available.

Problem is that MS is probably not going to include a good many drivers because they aren't logo-certified or whatever that genuine driver crap is.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

I started using DOS when I was a kid, later on I used a mac SE30, windows 1.0 straight through to windows XP, but often with macs available. I learned to code on windows 95 in highschool. I started using linux for software development just a little later, occasional solaris as well, still in highschool. Freshman year of college I switched to linux as my primary OS, I also started toying with BSD's occasionally. 2 years later I deleted XP from my last system. I graduated a year ago and I'm now a linux user. I mostly write systems code and prefer a command line interface because of the speed and less total movement helping with RSI, so Linux makes sense.

I'm starting a new job soon, my desktop will be Linux, my laptop a Mac. I'm actually really excited to try using OS-X. I was never really a mac person before, I just never found the software as useful (though the shareware games were GREAT). But know that I can run my mostly POSIX'ish software on the mostly POSIX'ish OS-X, I can't wait to try a new interface. I've stagnated a bit on Linux, I know how to do what I want to do. I'm a tinkerer, I like to fix things, change things, etc. There's tons more to learn of course, more about writing kernel code, coding in perl, etc. But the general everyday how to use the system I've definetly stagnated.

Anyway, my point is, you're right. Changing OS's can be alot of fun, it's interesting, it's a challenge. If you actually have to get something done it can be quite the pisser, but still.

Re:I agree

[ozmanjusri]

Pro-Linux threads generally are. It's a sensible marketing approach from Microsoft, and a lot cheaper than good engineering.

Re:I agree

[Khuffie]

I would say that it is their fault for allowing programs to utilize the entirity of the computer's resources.

Wait, so it's Microsoft's fault that a program beyond their control was coded so horribly? Can I also blame Apple when I installed that program that stopped me from being able to shutdown or restart my MacBook without doing a hard shutdown?

Its been a while since I used vista, but it seemed at the time there were quite a few options, including a couple of versions of sleep and full off.

I see Restart, Sleep, Hibernate and Shutdown. You can also Switch User, Log Off and Lock the computer, all of which are standard and available in Ubuntu's shutdown menu.

Re:I agree

[Risen888]

for some the idea of injecting some excitement into their computer usage by exploring a new OS with different strengths and weeknesses is quite attractive compared to relearning Windows in order to go back to what they already new.

+1

Re:I agree

[fractoid]

That was my point you weren't. You were comparing an XP SP'zero' to the latest version of Ubuntu. If you had the latest version of XP it would have been a fairer comparison. It takes me less than half an hour to patch from a recent SP2 disc. Pardon my pragmatism, but he was comparing what's available TO HIM: His Windows XP disc, and a reasonably recent Ubuntu live CD. Sure, the two aren't competing on even ground, but that's not what the end user cares about.

Re:I agree

[Verity_Crux]

Here's three legit monopolies MS has that keep me from moving to Linux. First, I use WPF and WCF. They rock. It will be a while before they're supported on Linux. Second, Linux still refuses to support fakeraid out of the box. I don't understand it. It's been ten years. I don't care if fakeraid is stupid. I want it supported in the installer, the boot loader, and the OS out of the box. Third, Adaptec needs to ship Linux drivers. It takes two years before the current Adaptec hardware is supported in Linux. I assume MS paid them off....

Re:I agree

[turing_m]

"tremulous, Battle for wesnoth"

Seconded, both are brilliant in their own way. Tremulous in particular is both extremely addictive AND has the eye candy that most gaming addicts seem to require. Wesnoth is just extremely addictive, in a HOMM 2 + internet multiplayer kind of way.

Re:I agree

[Nevyn]

That was my point you weren't. You were comparing an XP SP'zero' to the latest version of Ubuntu. If you had the latest version of XP it would have been a fairer comparison. It takes me less than half an hour to patch from a recent SP2 disc.

If I have XP SP0, where do I download these magical SP2 discs from? I can download the latest Ubuntu and Fedora-8(-test3) live CDs in a couple of hours each. Sucks to be a proprietary vendor, I guess.

Re:I agree

[hedwards]

Wait, so it's Microsoft's fault that a program beyond their control was coded so horribly? Can I also blame Apple when I installed that program that stopped me from being able to shutdown or restart my MacBook without doing a hard shutdown?

Yes, if MS coded their OS properly it wouldn't be a problem. With Vista, they've managed to come a long way in just one release. The core OS doesn't have to allow programs to take up more than their fair share. And it certainly doesn't have to continue to malloc for a process that is taking up 7/8 of ram. It also doesn't have to allow user programs to run with a higher priority than the basic core OS does.

Apple same deal, they can forcibly kill any program that refuses to close upon shutdown or restart. I think that if Vista can do it, I see no reason on earth why OSX can't. I assume that they are more concerned with short term data loss than the consequences of the OS not shutting down completely on demand.

When it comes down to it, the user should be able to do whatever the user wants to do, after that the core OS should be in charge, only after those two layers should a program be able to have resources. It makes things run a lot smoother if things don't get backwards and messed up.

My FreeBSD box can do all of those things, and if I'm not mistaken, so can Linux, Unix and Aptiva. There isn't anything magical about it, an OS should be designed to be robust and resilient. The assumptions should include the fact that a poorly programmed application will run amok, and to put into place a set up that minimizes the likelihood of that kind of rampage. As long as the kernel doesn't lock up solid, the OS should be able to kill any process at all, and keep them restrained sufficiently to be able to administer the computer.

And to that point, both Windows and the Mac OSes have come a huge way over the last 10 years or so.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Your 2nd was that it was a resource hog. And that's valid. Don't put vista on older or marginal hardware.

You had me nodding until this last statement, which sounds like Vista apologism. Vista is slow on much modern hardware as well.

Re:I agree

[Mr Z]

I was talking to my wife about this just the other day, as she cursed and dismissed another handful of needy dialogs from Windows. Basically, Windows is like a little 3 year old, running up and shoving in your face whatever doodle it just made. "See mommy? A sheep!" "That's very nice dear. Mommy's trying to work." Or, occasionally "Uhoh, I made a poopie." "Oh dear..."

Unfortunately, Linux has started to go in that direction. For instance, on Ubuntu Feisty Fawn, when I run the update manager, all of its pop-ups steal my keyboard focus. WTF? I already told you to do the update—you don't need to pop up and steal my keyboard focus to let me know you've managed to connect to the repository, and again once you've started installing the packages, and yet again when you're complete so I can dismiss you. Just go away and do it, and alert me if something goes wrong. I don't need an "Everything is OK" alarm.

Does Gutsy fix this, or am I going to have to blow the dust off of olvwm and run apt from a cron job?

And before I get pounced on as a troll, I'm referring to my main system. It's only ever run Linux. I've built three systems in this particular case, and all three of them have been Linux and Linux only from the first boot, stretching back about 4 or 5 years for this box. The box before it came with Windows 95 (pre-OSR2), which I dual booted mainly to verify that Intellivision emulator Windows and DOS ports ran correctly. (I dropped the DOS port some time ago.)

--Joe

Re:I agree

[Mr Z]

...that my Intellivision emulator...

*sigh* Mea culpa...

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody intelligent said it earlier .... the answer is virtualization.

Agreed, but which do you choose as your host OS?

Wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to choose? (And could reboot into whichever one you want through creative use of hibernate)

Re:I agree

[mobartz]

Not if you are running the NoScript firefox extension.

Re:I agree

[weicco]

His point isn't that he couldn't figure it out, it's just that things were "arbitrarily different"

Different than what? Wasn't this comparison between Vista and Ubuntu? Why is he comparing Vista to XP then? Or did he pusposedly wanted to lower Vista's points by making arbitrary compares...

And no, I didn't read the fricking article. I hate these comparisons. Why is Linux folk always comparing Linux to Windows? Can't they live and develop their stuff on their own? Why is it that every time there is a problem with Linux they go out like "but it's worse in Windows!" And why are people making these stupid arguments:

I installed XP on a machine for my sister 3 weeks ago and it took 4 hours worth of downloading drivers and updates

How long it takes to install Linux from year 2000 and update it to it's current state?

But the best post here in Slashdot was that somebody's Linux was able to download and install network card driver for his network card from internet automatically. Wow! I just couldn't figure out how his Linux was able to do that since he didn't have driver for that network card in the first place...

Please, mod me as a troll. I have karma to burn.

Re:I agree

[iabervon]

It's not so much that it's an unpopular opinion as that it's an uncommon experience. Most people seem to have driver issues with Vista (but not with XP), and, in most cases, Linux has driver support for everything, but no software set up to do anything with the device (i.e., if you plug in your USB sex toy, it'll have a driver, but there's no obvious way to tell, because there's no program that pops up and lets you use it).

Re:I agree

[BigDogRMF]

S w e e t !

Re:I agree

[Mr Z]

or Unrecoverable Application Eerror (Windows 3.0), or Unusable Amiga Emulator, or....

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

You noticed that too?! It must take them quite a long time to get mod points.

Posted anonymously because I don't want to lose my karma to the MS shills. Why did they have to ruin /. ?

Re:I agree

[dmitri3]

All I see is "Verio hosting is Linux with a lineage". Contrary to many other people who replied here, I don't block ads on sites that have them, but still care about the user to not put too much of them. After all, Slashdot gotta make some money too!

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess we'll take your word for it. You seem like the kind of guy who would never misrepresent facts or anything like that. Got any more truthyness you want to send our way, or are we done for now?

Re:I agree

[Das Modell]

Why would I misrepresent facts, and what makes you believe that I'm misrepresenting facts? If I didn't have any problems with Vista I wouldn't complain about it, and I sure as hell wouldn't have bothered to "downgrade" a Vista laptop by installing XP on it.

I'm not the only one saying that Vista is slow as fuck, and I'm not the only one who's had problems with UAC. The fact is that Vista has had a very poor reception and a lot of people hate it.

Re:I agree

[vux984]

Problem is that MS is probably not going to include a good many drivers because they aren't logo-certified or whatever that genuine driver crap is.

We shall see. The x64 edition of Vista by default will not accept unsigned drivers period. (Yes, that feature can be disabled, but its like disabling UAC, and strongly discourgaged... its nothing like the 'continue anyway' routine we have with XP.

I think this might actually make driver signing more common. It will be interesting to see how it plays out... people want the latest bug fixes NOW, not after a month of logo certification, especially in high profile devices like 3d graphics and sound.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

But the best post here in Slashdot was that somebody's Linux was able to download and install network card driver for his network card from internet automatically. Wow! I just couldn't figure out how his Linux was able to do that since he didn't have driver for that network card in the first place...

Maybe it was a wireless card, and like most systems, he already had a built-in wired network card, which was recognized...

Re:I agree

[vux984]

You download SP2.

You create a new disc image, and you merge the service pack into it. You can also slipstream all the critical updates since SP2 to bring your install disc right up to date to today, not to mention add in the drivers you need for your RAID or whatever so you don't need to load those drivers by floppy, etc, etc. And then burn it to disc.

Really, its not that hard. Lots of tutorials on the web. And even a couple tools exist to make an already easy process even easier.

Its not as easy as downloading the latest ubuntu release, I readily concede you that. But its not that hard either.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Your complaint against Vista is that its expensive? Really? Its cheaper than XP, unless you want Ultimate and its not like the price of XP went up recently.

I've noticed the retail price for XP has crept upward on NewEgg. This summer it was $270, now it's $286.

Re:I agree

[Rayonic]

I, too keep hearing stories about how bad Vista is, and not just from Slashdot. Cranky Geeks (not a pro-Linux show) went on for five minutes last week about how useless it is.

Still, I walk into any computer store and see only Vista machines for meters and meters. The whole thinig confuses me.;)

It's not confusing at all. What you're seeing is the direct result of Microsoft really being in a monopoly position. People can deny it all they want ("Microsoft doesn't have 100% of the desktop, so they can't be a monopoly!!"), but Microsoft's ability to bend the market against the wishes of the customer and the retailer is precisely what makes them a monopoly.

Your observation is just confirmation of that.

Microsoft needs a monopoly position to stop selling a certain product? I thought anyone could do that.

Re:I agree

[FishWithAHammer]

Koreans also eat, sleep, and breathe StarCraft. You think that they're a reliable baseline?

(Kidding...sort of.)

Re:I agree

[WoollyMittens]

I'm happy it's not slow for YOU. Now please come around and open a few PSD's on my work laptop and compare it to a similar system running XP. Thanks.

Re:I agree

[Anpheus]

I'd use Ubuntu on my laptop, but it whirrs the fan constantly, it runs about 25 degrees Fahrenheit hotter than Vista except when I put it into sleep mode (which didn't even work until I found an obscure article on how to fix it.)

Also: You don't run Vista. You're a liar, or you're using a lot of hand-coded apps that require admin for whatever reason on boot. But anti-virus programs that use the API Microsoft publishes don't need a UAC prompt to run. Nor does a properly coded CPU monitoring app (have you considered just running Task Manager and minimizing it?)

My laptop and desktop both boot to a wallpaper and taskbar with anti-virus and a few other programs running, no UAC prompts after login. ...

FU Canonical! I kid, of course, they're great people and they're making Linux, as a whole, better every day. Their contributions are invaluable and they're doing a lot to make it worthwhile. But- It's just not ready for everyone to use it.

Re:I agree

[Technician]

I run Vista and quite frankly these alleged horror stories amuse me. It's not "slow", it doesn't pop up permission dialogs every five seconds,

Let me guess... You had someone take care of the initial boot, make the recovery CD's, bought the Norton security, and turned off the confirmations.

On a brand new HP laptop media edition, the initial boot up took over 20 minutes. On the next boot between the Norton, pc health, and advertising (not online yet), there must have been at least 20 confirmation screens that needed closing or acknowleging. Everything to getting connecting online required confirmations. Installing flash required it. One of the first tasks was making the recovery DVD's. It took over an hour to produce the set. I've seen slow, and I've seen in your face pop-ups, and now I have seen them all at once in Vista.

Pray-tell.. What machine did you buy to avoid the headaches? What I got was slow, with a huge bunch of one on top of the other pop-ups and dialog boxes.. Please enlightn us. I have 30 days to return the laptop.

Re:I agree

[clickety6]

Were you using a disc from circa 2002? A lot has changed since then. XP has had a lot added and fixed since then. If you are using an up to date slipstreamed XP SP2 disc, the patch process doesn't take unduly long.

Great - which store sells these "slipstreamed XP SP2 discs" cos I can't seem to see one available. Or do I need to install the Windows XP I cna buy in the shop first, then make sure I apply the SP2 and then create a slipstreamed version, given that it's illegal to download a slipstreamed XP SP2 disc?

Oh, by the way, haven't there been a few updates since SP2 as well? Like maybe a few hundred megabytes of updates?

Sounds like it's going to take me a lot longer than I thought... ;-)

Re:I agree

[uglyduckling]

If you had the latest version of XP it would have been a fairer comparison. It takes me less than half an hour to patch from a recent SP2 disc.

Well, a slipstreamed disk is a third-party modification, so I think it's a little bit shakey using it as a comparison. I did try to create one a year ago but found it tediously difficult command-line sourcery (ironically what people often accuse Linux of) so I gave up. I've found a little utility now so I'll give it a go. I do appreciate that if I walked into a shop and bought a boxed XP I would get an SP2 disk, but then that would cost me a lot of money to be able to easily install and OS I already own.

Your complaint against Vista is that its expensive? Really?

Yes - really. I have piles of old boxes sitting around with XP license stickers on them. Vista will cost me money, big money that I don't have. Remember that I'm talking about what these OSs mean to me. Remember that the convesation started over frustration about articles where people change to Linux because they don't like Vista and I'm trying to explain why, from my point of view, some people might want to do that.

Your last compaint against vista is absurd: that its 'different than XP'. Well, la-di-da. Ubuntu is arbitrarily different from XP too, yet you don't complain about that.

It's not absurd, it's the whole point of the story. Some people feel that Vista has a lot of changes, but not many actual new features from the end-user point of view. Ubuntu cannot be "arbitrarily different" becuase it was never the same in the first place, it's different for at worst historical reasons. Vista started from XP, so each change should be for a good reason, but nevertheless people are looking at XP->Vista and XP->Ubuntu and seeing less difference in the amount of effort each change would take than they had previously believed and seriously thinking of giving Vista a miss.

Don't forget that in my fist post in this thread I said that I'm actually quite excited about giving Vista a go (I'm getting a boxed Ultimate in a couple of weeks time). I am a biased die-hard Linux fan, although my recent frustrating experience of installing XP was for my sister's Christmas present, so I'm not so far down that path that I don't see the need to let people use what they're comfortable with. What interests me is that I'm hearing XP users say they might be more comfortable with Ubuntu than Vista when the time comes to make the switch. Microsoft should be very worried about that.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

"And this is Microsoft's fault, or of the companies who create applications that think they have the go of the entire box?"

Programs like, erm, Microsoft's own Visual Studio 2005 (with the Vista patches) which has to run as administrator? Which means drag and drop doesn't work with the file explorer unless that too is run as administrator. Which means other apps need to run as administrator if you want to interop with those, which negates the whole point of non-privileged accounts in the first place.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

No surprises there. I still use Ubuntu Dapper (6.06) and would use it anyday rather than some evil user subjugating bloatware vista.

Micro$oft is the best Free software marketeer around. vista has pushed more people to GNU/Linux than probably any other single thing. They've totally fucked up this time. vista is the new windoze ME.

Ubuntu on the other hand is lean and mean. Free (as in freedom). Powerful. Sexy.

Re:I agree

[j_sp_r]

Strange, last time I installed SUSE let me make a fake RAID partition...

Re:I agree

[MikShapi]

I'm not sure which way this is going.

If you're claiming MS is a monopoly because it can "bend the market" by not selling XP, that's plain bull. Toyota doesn't sell old models either. As a company you have full freedom to decide what products to market and what products to retire.

If you're claiming it because there's no OSless laptops in stores, that's a whole different ballgame, and I'd tend to agree with you.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

You clearly don't actually *use* Visual Studio 2005, else you'd know that even despite Microsoft's fixes it still doesn't work unless you change the shortcut to launch it with elevated privileges. Even then it crashes when you shut it down some of the time.

SQL Server 2005 was a nightmare too.

Re:I agree

[hansraj]

I have used Vista a couple of times to "check it out". I am pretty sure you can make it remember that this particular program be allowed to run in the future without asking for confirmation, the first time you have to confirm.

Re:I agree

[basshedz2]

When my girlfriend got a new computer I went through the whole reinstalling XP from scratch process on her old computer so we could give it to a friend (so they had a completely clean installation). It wasn't difficult per se, but there were several issues. The main issue was that we have a WPA wireless network in our house and, after reinstalling XP, we couldn't connect to the network (since it wasn't until SP2 that XP supported WPA). This meant having to disable encryption on our router, downloading all the XP patches, and then re-enabling WPA.

Re:I agree

[DivineGod]

It's not hard either to find instructions to install wireless on Linux. The number one point made against using Linux.

Even after you have installed a slipstreamed up to date version of windows XP, you'll have to install all other applications you need and probably also drivers for your graphics card and the like.
And it still takes longer to install XP including all extra applications to have a system with same functionality as the Ubuntu default install.

Re:I agree

[vux984]

The main issue was that we have a WPA wireless network in our house and, after reinstalling XP, we couldn't connect to the network (since it wasn't until SP2 that XP supported WPA). This meant having to disable encryption on our router, downloading all the XP patches, and then re-enabling WPA.

I don't think WPA was installed/availab;e by default in Ubuntu either, at least not until quite recently. I remember having to manually apt-get the wpasupplicant packages for it, and not all that long ago? Not that it really matters....

Turns out there was no Ubuntu prior to XP SP2 at all. Even the oldest Warty Warthog wasn't released until (shortly) after SP2.

I was going to say a ubuntu disk from the same pre-SP2 era as your XP disc would have failed just as bad. But no, actually, there was no ubuntu disc from that era, and even much newer ubuntu discs didn't support WPA right off the disc. Somewhere between Around Edgy it was included I think, maybe Dapper. But certainly not Warty/Hoary/Breezy

At any rate, I just plugged it in with a cable rather than screw around with the wifi security on the router.

Re:I agree

[rjames13]

But the best post here in Slashdot was that somebody's Linux was able to download and install network card driver for his network card from internet automatically. Wow! I just couldn't figure out how his Linux was able to do that since he didn't have driver for that network card in the first place...

The other day I installed Windows Server 2008 Beta 3 and it didn't have a driver for my 3COM network card. Luckily for me I know that my ADSL modem has a USB connection and I just used that. Got any more GEM's of wisdom for us?

Re:I agree

[troff]

> If he doesn't want to migrate to Vista, that's fine. More power to him. But these "opinion articles"
> with their "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different Control Panel - instead, I
> switched operating systems!" matra are just annoying and stupid.

With respect: you are desperately mistaken. Any business person who thinks-and-announces the way you just have will crash and burn and even people in Microsoft believe that; and I'll tell you why.

Something you might want to remember is that "I can't be bothered to figure out a slightly different [...]" was a major method use/d in Microsoft published FUD.

Also, don't forget the 1997 Microsoft internal memo to Bill Gates, later quoted in the European Commission's 2004 findings, that said...
[quote]
        "The Windows API is so broad, so deep, and so functional that most ISVs would be crazy not to use it. And it is so deeply embedded in the source code of many Windows apps that there is a huge switching cost to using a different operating system instead...

        "It is this switching cost that has given the customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO, our lack of a sexy vision at times, and many other difficulties [...] Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, [but] it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.

        "In short, without this exclusive franchise called the Windows API, we would have been dead a long time ago."
[/quote] (wikisearch for "vendor lock-in" if you need the direct European Commission citation for the quote.)

Yes, that's API and not user experience. Realise, however, that Developers are "users" of a system as well, just at a deeper level and with more "flexibility". Users stick with an interface, you call that stupid and annoying. Developers stick to an API, Microsoft general managers acknowledge they'd be dead without it.

(My postgrad study [Open Source in the public sector] had me delivering a presentation just 24 hours ago where I had to present that very quote as an illustration of proprietary software company lock-in. This was convenient timing.)

Re:I agree

[mspohr]

The basic OS install is only part of the problem with XP. Even if the XP install and update took the same time as Ubuntu install (it never has in my experience), it still takes many more hours to install all the additional software (and their patches) such as anti-virus, firewall, office suite, graphics, etc. The last time I rebuilt my daughter's WinXP that had been overtaken by malware, it took more than a day.

With Ubuntu, everything installs at once (and you don't need antivirus)and you're ready to go.

Re:I agree

[Computershack]

So it's Vistas fault you're stupid? And no, don't try to claim you're not when you use a Norton product. I have non of those problems and I have UAE turned on. Nothing wrong with Vista in your case, just the clueless idiot mashing the keyboard.

Re:I agree

[Corporate Troll]

Myself, I use Windows because I can't get used to the GUI for some reason, although these days I spend more and more of my time in consoles (either ssh to the linux server or a Cygwin shell).

What makes you think that others will switch, if *you* a seasoned geek/nerd, can't make the switch because of lack of familiarity in the GUI?

Besides, have you checked any of the other Ubuntus like KUbuntu or XUbuntu?

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, the pseudo Microsoft grassrooters are out in full force today.

I just bought a laptop with Vista installed on it. Preconfigured, and supposed to give a good user experience. It's from Lenovo, so this is not some mickey mouse outfit. I found Vista to be slow and annoying to the extreme.

Installing Xubuntu took less than an hour, all of my hardware was detected and it is faster and prettier than Vista by a long shot. YMMV. Software updates are under my control.
-Evert Vorster-

Re:I agree

[Corporate Troll]

Who the fuck used non-privileged accounts in XP, besides huge corporations?

I do, and so does my whole family. Works perfectly fine. The reason others don't manage is because it requires a bit work and knowledge to set the permissions of misbehaving applications (both on the filesystem and in the registry). To add insult to injury, you need to use a command line too to set the file permissions on Windows XP Home.

It's not hard to do, but you need the required knowledge.... Problems? My Windows XP machines do not have problems and all users are Limited. Including myself. I only log in to Administrator when I actually need to configure something for the whole system.

Yes, even games can be made to work on Limited User. My brother is an avid gamer, and all his games work under Limited User. Of course, he wouldn't be able to do that himself...

Re:I agree

[Bert64]

The same people who say "creating a slipstream disc is not hard" are also saying "using the linux command line is too hard"...
Most end users won't want or be able to do either, so how the default disc is DOES matter.
Users don't want to buy an updated version of an OS they already have, but would quite happily download an updated install disc.

Re:I agree

[MikShapi]

More fanboy bullshit

Vista is perfectly fine on modern hardware. I run it on anything ranging from northwood P4's, through 1.7GHz dothans to an E6300, two T5600's and an L7500 CPU.
If you don't have enough 3D oomph in your system to support aero properly, disable it. Any 3D chipset except Via Unichrome from the last 5 years will pull it totally smoothly. It requires less 3D capability than a game from 1999.

The only resource Vista hogs significanly more than XP is RAM. It hogs an entire 50$-worth more of it. Big Whoop. Like that wasn't the case when comparing XP to 98, 98 to 95, or a modern KDE implementation to some archaic linux running KDE1. RAM usage expands. Who cares?

Like GP said - don't go installing vista on old kit, same as you'd not install XP on a Pentium 1.

For modern hardware that can spare some RAM, it's not a bad option. It offers some ups alongside some downs when lined up next to both Ubuntu and XP, and is really a matter of what matters to you more.

But on the snappiness front, it's perfectly fine.

Re:I agree

[r3m0t]

OK, I'm going to configure this power button:

Right-click on the button, Properties. Nope, that gives me the properties of the whole start bar and menu. Browse through, but it isn't there.

OK, I'm going to press the windows key and type "power". Nope, I need to search for "power" *inside* the Control Panel.

OK, windows key -> "control" -> search for "power". Aha! "Change what your power button does". FINALLY!

That's what my experience was. I'm not at a Vista computer right now (using a public XP computer, and using Ubuntu at home) so I can't reproduce it exactly. There may be some UAC in there.

Re:I agree

[node 3]

Were you using a disc from circa 2002? A lot has changed since then. XP has had a lot added and fixed since then. If you are using an up to date slipstreamed XP SP2 disc, the patch process doesn't take unduly long.

...

Were you using a disc from circa 2002? I dare ya, grab a Ubuntu Breezy Badger disc as your starting point, install it, and then patch it up to Gutsy. See how long that takes you. I bet it would be faster, to boot from the Breezy live CD, and use it to download Gutsy in its entirety, and then install from that. Why would anyone use an old Ubuntu CD when they can just download a new one? As for XP, you *can't* download an up-to-date disc.

With XP, you will have to borrow an up-to-date disc (and it has to match your license-type--was it OEM? Home? Pro? Upgrade? Odds are highly against a friend's disc even working with your key), buy an up-to-date copy, or create a slipstreamed disc (the option you listed).

So, to make a valid comparison (which is what you are ostensibly trying to do), you need to compare downloading and burning an Ubuntu ISO with downloading SP2, creating a slipstreamed ISO, and burning it.

Both in time spent, and effort expended, the Ubuntu option is going to win out.

Re:I agree

[AP31R0N]

Will Ubuntu run Planetside, MSO and Neverwinter Nights with current video card drivers? If so, i'm there, dude! Otherwise... i'll stick with XP.

One of my lusers went over my head and ordered a laptop with Vista. He can't connect to the VPN because the devs of our firewall haven't made a driver. i'm pretty much ignoring this luser for making me deal with Vista and disregarding my instructions. i found Vista to arbitrarily different as well. They could have made user affordances of (read: taken advantage of everyone's familiarity with) XP's interface, but no.

If gamers started clamoring for linux drivers and games, maybe something would change. Game developers want to be paid for their skills and time, and well. So where is that money going to come from? Games are already insanely expensive.

Re:I agree

[Bert64]

Backwards compatibility often needs to be broken to improve security in the case of windows...
There are just so many fundamental design flaws, and often you have multiple ways of doing things, the original flawed method and a new not so flawed method with the old one maintained for backwards compatibility. As an example, consider lanman password encryption.

Even windows 2003 encrypts your passwords twice by default, once with the newer NTLM hash, which isn't great (no salts etc)... and once with the older lanman hash which is utterly laughable (case insensitive, limit of 7 chars longer passwords are encrypted in 2 halves, no salts, low key length)..
You can disable it, but then you lose compatibility with some older programs and you lose the ability to communicate with older windows based systems using the microsoft networking protocols.

Compare this with unix systems, which traditionally used DES, which while being massively stronger than lanman and better in some respects than ntlm, is getting a bit long in the tooth. Modern unixes now support MD5 or Blowfish based password encryption which is much stronger, linux typically has it by default and solaris has an easily enabled config file. I have yet to encounter programs which fail to work due to the use of newer stronger encryption, and i can still communicate with ancient unix systems just fine.

Re:I agree

[Das Modell]

I ran Ubuntu today for the first time, and I was quite suprised by how well it works. My soundcard and Internet connection worked immediately, and Ubuntu automatically chose my display's native resolution. Very nice. The interface feels good and there doesn't appear to be much of a learning curve for a person experienced with Windows. However, I'm completely unfamiliar with Linux so I expect I'll eventually have problems with some things.

I decided to get a Linux distro after I was exposed to the horrors of Vista. I'll eventually have to use Vista for gaming purposes, but I expect I can do everything else with Ubuntu.

Re:I agree

[Velaki]

Gamer. Drug addict. Whatever. Same thing. You even claim that "Microsoft is King," because you need it for gaming. (* insert strains of "Pusherman" from "Superfly" here *)

If you were able to get your fix from a linux system, would you still use Windows?

Re:I agree

[rbochan]

...Like GP said - don't go installing vista on old kit, same as you'd not install XP on a Pentium 1...

That's where I find the logic a bit wacky, because I _can_ install a Linux distro (Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS, etc.) on old kit and have it perform wonderfully. I can even install a lighter weight distro (DSL, Puppy, Debian, etc.) on a Pentium 1 and not have to purchase new hardware - and have it use a 90 watt PSU versus a 500 watt - and have up to date, supported software.
If I do happen to have "modern" hardware, it performs even better.
Maybe I'm just nuts, but I like those benefits.

Re:I agree

[sharkey]

UAC aside, this does not change the behaviour of the "power button" in the start menu. It changes the behaviour of the physical power button on the PC.

You need to go farther:
Go to Control Panel -> Power Options.
Select "Change plan settings" for your currently selected power plan.
Select "Change advanced power settings".
Expand Power buttons and lid.
Expand Start menu power button.

You can then change the settings.

Re:I agree

[r3m0t]

Ah yes, that was it. Repeat for every power plan you use.

Re:I agree

[bioglaze]

At least with Kubuntu, you can instruct Adept to install security updates automatically without confirmation.

Re:I agree

[mccabem]

...and just to further the point: This monopoly bull$#it has been going on since around 1990.

I am anti-Windows for one reason only: When I was looking to upgrade from my Atari 800, I was looking into the PC platform to possibly run OS/2. Of all the vendors in Computer Shopper that I called (and for those old enough to remember Computer Shopper from those days....there were MANY DOZENS of vendors), none of them would sell me a computer without Windows. Not one.

If the OEM PC vendors were not beholden to the Microsoft monopoly, you can be sure we'd have much more to choose from than "meters and meters of Windows machines". You might even find something other than just the PC platform!

Good luck!
-Matt

Re:I agree

[Bert64]

Companies don't usually ship linux drivers, linux drivers tend to come with the kernel and distributions...
All of the higher end adaptec hardware i've used has been perfectly well supported by linux. Any vendor who produces gear for servers would be stupid not to support linux, as linux is a very big player in the server market.

Re:I agree

[kwandar]

For me the answer as to what I choose as the host is easy. Leaving aside the KVM virtualization built into Linux, I simply prefer Ubuntu for ease of use and functionality, even though I've used XP almost continuously since it came out at home and work, up until about 3 months ago. That and the fact I don't have to deal with licensing crap on Ubuntu.

Re:I agree

[1001011010110101]

If they use they mod points to silence us, they cant use them to shill.

Go to MSNBC.COM and leave us alone!

Re:I agree

[Foofoobar]

Exactly. It's called imprinting and it's why people stay with software that they are first familiar with as well as why a baby duck thinks a football is it's mother (psyche ref). Getting people to imprint on new software usually means that the new software needs to be as similar to the software that they are already familiar with with only a few noticeable changes. Too many changes and the user is unable to imprint or doesn't WANT to imprint and they find the software unusable.

Re:I agree

[LingNoi]

I'll eventually have to use Vista for gaming purposes,

Fear not. Try Flight Gear (in repo) for your flight sim, Warsow (available at getdeb) tremulous, Assult Cube and my favourite Americas Army. Those are the FPS's.

If you're more of an RTS fan then you got The Battle for Wesnoth (in the repo), BOS Wars.

There is alot more but I am too lazy to post anymore. My point is, lets stop the myth that there are no games for Linux please.

Free Gamer Games list

Re:I agree

[Loosifur]

I think I almost agree with you, except for several points. I'm coming from the experience of using Windows since 3.1, including Vista since its release. I recently formatted and am now dual booting Ubuntu and XP (for some games). My computer is by no means a powerhouse, but it scored 4.8 on the Vista rating utility thing and is reasonably robust. Pentium 4 3.2ghz with 2g ram, Geforce 7800 gtx, which should be more than enough to run Vista without any of the Aero stuff turned on. I found that even with a fresh install startup times were longer than XP, it took longer to actually start an application, and copying/moving large files took an absurdly long time. How beefy does a Vista pc need to be, exactly? If Vista needs an inordinate amount of resources/hardware to perform standard os duties, it's a hog; not a "hog, but...", or a "hog if...", just a hog.

I totally agree that if you have a broadband connection and more or less standard hardware XP installs are quick and easy, even if you don't have an SP2 disc; with one, they're even easier. So was Ubuntu, in my case, although I've had hardware issues with that in the past. And although I think the quality of the changes in Vista is uneven (I liked the permission system, multiple account handling, networking, for instance; not so fond of the popups etc.)I concede that a lot of the aesthetic changes are matters of, well, taste.

As far as price, well, yes, yes it is expensive. If you buy a new computer then you'll have whatever OEM version of Vista along with that, which is how I suspect many people have come by XP. However, let's say I've got XP Pro, and I want to upgrade to Vista. In order to get the equivalent Vista version, Ultimate, I'd have to shell out $260. Maybe reread this paragraph to be safe. I'm not arguing that buying XP Pro was ever cheap, I'm saying that, unless you buy a PC with Ultimate preinstalled, the cost to upgrade is prohibitive. Ubuntu, obviously, is free.

I can't speak to whether Ubuntu is more or less difficult to keep running, although I suspect that one of the benefits of open source is that patches and upgrades and tweaks are released faster. In my experience Vista ran reliably poorly. XP of course has the decay, where it just seems to run slower and slower as the year goes on until, finally, you have to format and reinstall.

I'm not saying that people who prefer Vista to Linux hate freedom and/or puppies or anything, I'm just saying that there is something to the fact that some PC vendors are pushing XP over Vista. I'm not necessarily the average consumer, although I might be close, but if my behavior is any indication there are plenty of people who will start looking at Ubuntu over Vista when XP starts to lose support.

Re:I agree

[Das Modell]

I'm sure there are good freeware games for Linux, but I'm talking about commercial Windows games. I hear Wine can run a lot of Windows games, though.

Re:I agree

[kat_skan]

The button does what you configure it to do.

Except when there are updates to install. Then it becomes an "unceremoniously kill all open applications and install updates" button.

Re:I agree

[DaveWick79]

I think driver signing/not signing boils down to trust of the manufacturer. Or trust of Microsoft. 80% of the aftermarket peripherals I install do not have signed drivers. Perhaps MS needs to streamline or devote more resources to getting drivers signed, or the strategy of requiring signed drivers will blow up in their face because users reject it.

Re:I agree

[Actually, I do RTFA]

My cpu monitoring app, norton antivirus, etc... all have to be given permission to run, it really pisses me off.

This is not Microsoft's fault. Your apps need to run in admin mode, which Microsoft told the developers not to do. It is not that hard to make your apps MS security friendly (as a developer), considering I've had to do that on our current product. Basically, Microsoft has been put in a position of being asked to magically know which apps need admin access and which do not. Granted, if MS had enforced security from day 1, it would not be an issue, but the problem is not that they are enforcing security rules now. The problem is that developers go too used to abusing permissions they should not have had. /rant

Re:I agree

[NVP_Radical_Dreamer]

If you honestly think that because vista makes you click an ok button every time it wants to do something it is providing any real security then you are seriously in denial. The only thing it does is condition the user to press the ok button for everything since they are so used to having to hit it.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a nice fight but i believe you are trying really hard to compare apples to oranges.

XP sp2 and Ubunutu that did not exist at that time. Well actually Ubuntu was a debian based distro when it finally was released. So in order to make the comparison should we now start comparing windows xp sp2 unpatched with a new Debian 3.0 system?

Honestly I think the point has been made already, its an unfair comparison to say lets perform a fresh install of windows XP with the original disks I already have from 2003. Or upgrade the whole mess to Ubuntu 7.10.

I know personally if it was a system I was preparing for anything but playing games I would put linux on it. And it would take me far less time no matter how much preparing for windows I had made.

Again apples to oranges.

Re:I agree

[Miltazar]

Yes, one thing that I should have pointed out is that I was referring to relatively recent hardware. I have tried many Linux games, and while some are pretty good I was referring to mainstream games. I have tried wine, and on my systems in the past and recently it just hasn't worked. I'm far from a Microsoft fanboy, but for me thats just what is closest to my needs. I honestly don't care what the best operating system is, I just use what fits my needs closest. For me its Windows, and I mean Windows as in any Windows. As for Vista, its a little better in some ways then XP IMHO, and its a little worse in other areas. Overall I think its better, but despite me having no trouble with it I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Main reason is theres just no point in upgrading. Only reason I upgraded is because I built a new sorta high-end computer and thus wanted to future proof it.

There isn't a large enough gap between XP and Vista to justify upgrading a working copy of XP to Vista. However Vista itself isn't as bad as its made out to be. Like computers, its just a tool. I have no bias toward any OS. Like I said before, I'll use what works for me. Right now its windows, and I'm sure that eventually it will be Linux. I still have a Linux machine, it just doesn't see much use.

As a side note, hopefully with ATI releasing their specs I can finally use my ATI cards in Linux. I'd love to setup a HTPC linux box with one of the Radeon HD 2600s.

Re:I agree

[kionel]

Unfortunately, there just isn't enough of a market for Linux gamers out there to make the effort worthwhile.

Remember when iD released their stuff on Linux?

Remember when we had good company creating ports?

Remember that neither happens any longer?

Seriously, if the Mac can't garner decent games development even after it's been moved to an Intel-based architecture and a really nice OS, what kind of chance does Linux have?

For the record, if I could run Flight Simulator 2004, World of Warcraft, Silent Hunter IV, Lightwave, and Premiere Pro on Ubuntu, I'd switch and would never look back. Alas...

Re:I agree

[kionel]

Huh?

Why dismiss the OP for using a PC for gaming? How is that a less legitimate use for a PC than using one for Word Processing, email, browsing the web, or working with 3D graphics? How is farting around with a makefile to get a kernel compiled just so any less of an "addiction"?

People own computers for their own reasons. If gaming is a priority, then XP is frankly the way to go. If not, well, Ubuntu is pretty much a given as the better choice for everything I listed above. But neither choice is more "right" than the other.

Re:I agree

[randomencounter]

Thanks for the suggestion, but because it isn't the exact way I'd already decided upon, I'm going to discount it out of hand, despite any [performance|feature|flexibility] advantages I may get from checking it out. Cygwin is MSWindows-Native implementations of a bunch of really handy Unix utilities, many of which predate Micro-Soft. These applications are frequently simpler (and almost always smaller) than the equivalent GUI-layer implementations of similar features, and having a GUI at all almost always prevents or makes more complicated the process of automating functionality (i.e. will it work if you aren't logged in?)

Re:I agree

[Bloodoflethe]

Last I heard, Blizzard doesn't like people running WoW on linux, as Wine doesn't allow a lot of their security/spy programs to function.

Re:I agree

[Allador]

You can disable it, but then you lose compatibility with some older programs and you lose the ability to communicate with older windows based systems using the microsoft networking protocols. This doesnt really come up as a problem anymore though, and hasnt for years. Disabling the LM hash will only break windows 2000 machines with early service packs or earlier OS's, so its really a non-issue.

About the only thing we see that sometimes breaks poorly-written/older apps is using DFS. Some apps dont deal well with DFS and require regular UNCs or (God help us) mapped drives.

Re:I agree

[Allador]

Making an account a member of the "power users" group on XP is pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't already know how to do it. I don't know why the "power user" was relegated to obscurity in XP. Because you shouldnt be using it. It provides no protections compared to running as admin. It's been officially deprecated in Vista, and will be gone in the next version.

There's not really any compelling reason to run as Power Users, you may as well just use admin.

I found it to be a reasonable balance between running as a limited user and an administrator. It's not.

It provides no additional security protections, and you get the benefit of using a deprecated, non-standard configuration.

Re:I agree

[poser101]

You know... it's odd... my sister's boyfriend bought her a laptop about 6 months prior to Vista's release. XP was victim of a very bad error and the machine needed reformatted. The XP disc that was provided by Dell (actually, it wasn't provided, I had to call and have them send one) did not include SP2, and you couldn't even START the Windows installation because of missing drivers. Luckily, a USB stick with the drivers and a slipstreamed version of the XP disc did work a miracle, but I just wonder why they would have sent a disc that you couldn't even install from?

Re:I agree

[Bert64]

Unfortunately, a lot of companies are still tied to legacy apps running on NT3/4 and such... And these apps being proprietary, cannot be ported to newer platforms.
Why is LM still turned on by default anyway, considering how weak it is and how rarely it's required...
Also, NTLM encryption is pretty crap too, can't they come up with something better? Or better yet, use something established like openbsd's blowfish.

Re:I agree

[Rary]

"...people are looking at XP->Vista and XP->Ubuntu and seeing less difference in the amount of effort each change would take than they had previously believed and seriously thinking of giving Vista a miss."

This is a crucial point. I have Vista on my primary laptop at home, and Ubuntu on my secondary workstation, and have used XP extensively until recently. Vista is a huge leap from XP, enough that the leap to Ubuntu doesn't seem so huge in comparision. Add to that the fact that OpenOffice looks more like past versions of Office than the newest version of Office does, and Microsoft should really be rethinking their whole "let's make everything look completely different" strategy.

Re:I agree

[ConceptJunkie]

Yeah Ubuntu is great, do I still have to find, download, compile and install READLINE?

I don't remember the last time I had to do something like that. If it's in the repository, all that stuff is taken care of for you. apt-get is the best installation solution ever.

And btw, why is linux still a pain in the ass to install on laptops? Really, more than 50% computers sold are laptops, and they don't have a video configuration method that obviates "give up and die" as a solution to little hiccups?

What are you installing? RedHat 5? It's not 100% bullet-proof: I've had to back out after installing the restricted drivers in Feisty, but I play on the bleeding-edge and am willing and equipped to deal with that stuff. But I haven't had graphics problems installing Linux on a laptop in years. By the way, I had no problems after installing the restricted nVidia drivers under Gutsy.

Re:I agree

[Orrin Bloquy]

Hey, offhand, what was your luck trying to purchase an Atari 800 with MSBASIC burned into the ROMs instead of ATBASIC?

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet another Linux fanboy making up retarded BS about Windows.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

> Then it becomes an "unceremoniously kill all open applications and install updates" button.

This is a thoroughly researched design decision!

They originally had a "ceremoniously kill all open applications and install updates" button, but it was changed after enough beta testers complained that inserting the ritual knife damaged their floppy drive, and the module for downloading the dead chickens was blocked by IE7.

Re:I agree

[textureglitch]

See that's the thing. You've had no problems with Vista, but a lot of other people have. They can't get anything working the way you claim it just does, yet Ubuntu or whatever distro they favor just does things automagically.

Depends on what you use it for, what programs you want to run, what devices you want to plug in and what network environment you're running it in.
But why is my experience with my computer always dictated by what Microsoft wants? Graphics hardware support, laptop modems, wireless network cards, and games are the areas that Linux suffers in, and there's only one company to blame for that.

The point that everyone who are usually painted as Linux fanboys are trying to make is that _everybody_ ought to have the opportunity to choose what works best for them. Without the MS monopoly, without the intimidation exerted on universities and schools, without the strong-arming of OEMs to sell only MS products, without the attack ads, without the smear campaigns against Red Hat, without the underhanded pacts about patent protections, without undermining the entire international standards boards, without the extermination of smaller companies that make useful software, without creating an MS-only version of every single technology in existance, etc.

Re:I agree

[vux984]

As far as price, well, yes, yes it is expensive. If you buy a new computer then you'll have whatever OEM version of Vista along with that, which is how I suspect many people have come by XP. However, let's say I've got XP Pro, and I want to upgrade to Vista. In order to get the equivalent Vista version, Ultimate, I'd have to shell out $260.

Vista Business is the equivalent to XP Pro, and the MSRP on a retail upgrade is $199.00. Its not stil cheap I agree, but Ultimate is not the right product to compare to.

Vista Ultimate, if you wanted to equate it with XP would be Media Centre Edition, but even that's not entirely accurate. And MCE was never properly available retail so a price comparison is fairly hard.

That said, I would never advise anyone to upgrade to Vista from XP. If buying a new PC, sure, Vista is an option, but it rarely makes any sense to upgrade.

I'm not necessarily the average consumer, although I might be close, but if my behavior is any indication there are plenty of people who will start looking at Ubuntu over Vista when XP starts to lose support.

Bingo! For existing hardware Microsoft hasn't provided a reasonable upgrade path. Vista isn't cheap, doesn't offer anything compelling for the upgrade price, and runs like a dog on old hardware. Its a net loss on older hardware. Its also a significantly different UI. So someone on XP, facing XP's end-of-life should be looking hard at Ubuntu. Because while it also has a significantly different UI, its free and its fast on their hardware.

To combat this MS is going to have to extend the life of XP *much* longer than they wanted; and we are already seeing this start to happen. They are really caught between a rock and a hard place though, because the Vista upgrade isn't compelling they just need to extend support until enough of the XP hardware is obsolete enough that there aren't many people left contemplating what they are going to do when XP goes away. "They'll just buy new hardware and it will come with Vista." The trouble there is that unlike the 286-386-486-Pentium era where being even one generation back was pretty much obsolete, today processor generations are much less pronounced, and a 7+ year old Pentium III with 1GB of RAM is perfectly adequate for XP/Office provided you don't do something stupid like install Norton 2007 on it. In other words - its going to be a long time before the current crop of Pentium 4's goes away.

Re:I agree

[thatwouldbeme]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you? I have a brand new laptop that came with Windows Vista business and it most certainly is slow. On a core 2 duo with a gig of ram both XP and Ubuntu zip around with fluid ease while with Vista it crawls under the burden of some mysterious unassigned task.

The additional resources required to run a new Operating System would be a fair price to pay if it came with new and useful features but whatever they are I have yet to find them, and trust me I have looked. This will probably be the OS I have to support at work in a few months and I want to know it inside and out, especially anything that will make my life easier.

My wireless card periodically disables itself, a 'feature' apparently peculiar to the windows wireless service which offers no apparent method to return control to the Access Connections program Lenovo spent so much time writing to be useable and effective with their hardware. Again, under Ubuntu my card worked flawlessly from the default install and doesn't drop out even if I leave it running for a week under the full torrent-load of a raft of new distros.

But the thing I dread most of all coming into my organisation is those permission dialogs. The very first one I ever got asked for my permission to continue because 'an unknown program has requested to perform an unknown action'. To this, I am expected to click yes for my programs to run properly, a lesson that will quickly be learned by every single user in my organisation and which will immediately render that entire layer useless.

So to get Vista to run reasonably in my organization I will be disabling aero, disabling file indexing, and disabling UAC, which leaves me with a thoroughly bloated, less stable, insecure, and unfamiliar Windows XP, all because our primary software vendor is forcing us via end-of-lifecycle policies to upgrade whether we like it or not. If you want to talk about something that's annoying and stupid, there you have it.

Finally, I challenge you to sit in any organisation's help and support centre on the first day of Vista deployment and explain to the %60 of people who call about why the shutdown button only hibernates how hilarious it is. Quite frankly, if any other vendor did this to our organisation we would never purchase anything from them again.

Re:I agree

[aztektum]

At work, I can't just easily interface with our Active Directory(yes its MS, but its what we use). That's like saying "The alternator on my Ford Focus didn't work on my Honda Civic. WTF Ford!?"

Also as a gamer I'm also unable to permanently switch to Linux. Technically not also a "fault" of Linux. I'm sure that game devs would make Linux native games if the market really existed.

When Linux has a dominant share of the market place, and games are put out strictly for Linux, then I'll switch. How will it become dominant if people don't use it? Why would a game company dev native Linux games if there is no market?

Re:I agree

[Miltazar]

I wasn't placing any blame anywhere. I'm not complaining that it doesn't just work, I'm just stating that it doesn't just work for me. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, as that is a moot point. There are people who care about raising popularity of a product. Usually its hardcore fans and the business behind the product, i.e. Microsoft. I'm neither a hardcore fan of either, and I certainly don't work for MS or contribute to a Linux distro.

In the end I am a consumer. If Microsoft was largely unsupported and didn't do half of what I needed and Linux/some-other-OS did then I'd switch to the OS that did. My agenda is that I want to use a product that provides me the most joy while doing what I need to do. Thats it, no political/moral motivation besides that.

Just so you know I'm not attacking Linux, I'm merely stating that in my experience as a Sys Admin and a consumer Windows works best. Windows Vista works for me, but in my corporate environment Windows XP works best. Of course this is a purely Desktop environment. For servers I have slowly started switching the company over to Linux, as despite the sometimes long configuration it will work without much maintenance after that.

However we still depend on Active Directory, and the chances of us getting rid of that anytime soon are slim. We also use a mixture of MS Office, and Open Office. We use to use MS Office Pro and Standard(for those who don't need pro). I was able to switch us over to standard. We also use a ton of oss software such as ZPDF Creator, Gimp, FileZilla, etc. Any chance I get I suggest an oss alternative. Linux just isn't viable for me/us yet.

Re:I agree

[Stevecrox]

Interesting point, hrmm let me open Visual Studio 2005 oh wait theres no Allow or Cancel box, hrmm lets copy my music collection from my external USB hard drive to my music folder, oh wait theres no Allow or Cancel box.

But your right if I try copying into the Program Files (x86), the Program Files folder or try putting stuff into the Windows directory it asks me to Allow or Cancel, how usefull it makes me think before I start dumping rubbish into key system folders, how usefull.Nice FUD

Re:I agree

[Risen888]

When Linux has a dominant share of the market place, and games are put out strictly for Linux, then I'll switch.
Until then, Microsoft will still be king.

Good. Call me back in about seven years. I'll be the guy eating your lunch because I familiarized myself with the next big thing instead of burying my head in the sand of the last big thing.

Re:I agree

[vux984]

Well, a slipstreamed disk is a third-party modification, so I think it's a little bit shakey using it as a comparison.

3rd party? You can easily do it yourself, using your original disk, and stuff you download from microsoft.

I did try to create one a year ago but found it tediously difficult command-line sourcery (ironically what people often accuse Linux of) so I gave up. I've found a little utility now so I'll give it a go.

er.. its a single easy command, for a basic sp2 disc. Its a bit more work to integrate some of the other stuff that's come out since then, but its hardly command line sorcery. In any case, you are likely to face far more command line sorcery with Linux than with XP.

I do appreciate that if I walked into a shop and bought a boxed XP I would get an SP2 disk, but then that would cost me a lot of money to be able to easily install and OS I already own.

Fair enough. But you are actually buying a replacement LICENSE in addition to a mere disc. So not only would you be able to easily install the OS you already own, but also a copy on an additional machine.

That said, you can get replacement discs from Microsoft for nominal charge, provided you actually bought retail discs in the first place. Sadly most users are stuck with OEM support and crappy recovery discs, and lately they make it hard to get een that... but that's the OEM's policy not microsofts.

Finally, and although I hate to go here, if you can't slipstream it yourself, or don't want to, you can trivially get a torrent of a recent XP disc image with XP SP2 and most of the fixes since then. As long as you download the correct edition that matches your disc (Volume / Retail Upgrade / Retail Full / OEM) so that it accepts your key your fine.

Microsoft really only cares about your licenses and license keys, and whether your activated, and passed genuine advantage. They really don't care about the media. And I think its only a matter of time before they make them directly downloadable themselves.

At best its a grey area, and maybe it doesn't belong in a discussion like this, and I agree you shouldn't really have to go 'grey' to do this, but it truly is a case where no harm is being done.

Re:I agree

[sumdumass]

Generally, when a company stops offering a product people want, the people will look for similar alternatives. It isn't that they stopped selling a product, it is that there aren't any alternatives available in the places people shop.

Of course you could look even more narrowly at the big picture and point out that it isn't MS that stopped selling the stuff. You can even ignore the pressure MS puts on the OEMs and say it is all their decisions simultaneously as if the OEMs are the ones colluding and creating a proxy monopoly then point out that MS still makes XP available. Fortunately, some of us has taken a deep breath, taken a few steps back and actually saw the big picture.

Re:I agree

[sumdumass]

Toyota doesn't recall all the unsold licenses and melt them down, destroy them, or change the license to include the new model in order to push the new models. They will leave them on the lot until they are sold.

But I have been told that car analogies suck anyways. I don't think it is worth arguing over.

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Some distros come with readline, some don't. Mandrake doesn't, I think it DOES have an rpm for it though. It's annoying to have to find and compile and install. It's comparitively obscure, but it's not a dependancy I have to deal with doing the equivalent task in Windows (applications tend to be a little less dependant in that way). And sometimes, linux can be completely miserable with stuff like that.

800 x 600 in failsafe is not an acceptable hardware detection and install in a laptop. It's not. It's not even close. It's a joke, a bad one, to entertain comparisions between linux and windows in this respect. They're barely in the same universe. With AMD and ATI, I would think this would naturally improve. Sometime in the future, which is not now.

With Linux, which is fantastic for a lot of things, on the desktop, there are concessions demanded. It's a balance between the infinite time required to get everything I want, and working flawlessly and the things I'm willing to accept not working. Hibernation perhaps, video whatever beyond the trivial. On the plus side I get the unlimited sexing up of my actual desktop. No denying that.

With windows vista, literally everything has worked flawlessly for me. Every media center function, and the new Internet TV update which I can run through my Xbox 360 to my HD tv is pretty dope. But here too there are concessions. I don't really have unlimited desktop sexing. I need to make a concession to supporting some level of malware protection (firewall just can't protect everything if I act and expect that it will, I will be proven wrong). But these aren't concessions of giving up functionality. I get malware protection for free (ISP), or I can buy it for $20 a year (Frys), and I don't particularly care about sexing up the desktop. At least no more than a default KDE install.

When I make a Media server to hold and play my entire dvd collection, linux is a good choice for a server, but not for something that's a media center. With an axe and a rivet gun you can minimally get it there. But bulletproof, full featured and resonably easy, the somewhat surprising choice is in fact Windows.

That the UI of control panel is now different (though hugely improved) is hardly a detraction.

Re:I agree

[monkeySauce]

Good to know. XP does not tell me that, it just hides it. That raises the question... why the hell was it there to begin with?

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

He's claiming that MS can bend the market and is a monopoly, not because they sell Vista instead of XP (which is an option they have), but because they can get by with it. That is, unless you do have a monopoly, it is not feasible to substitute a deficient product with a more deficient one, and still get people to buy it.

Imagine that there are three competitors selling OSs, and that the three of them have similarly good products (MS Windows XP and two others). Now, if MS where to launch Vista, and if Vista where the failure it is considered to be by so many, MS would have to sell both XP and Vista, because if they discontinued the former, to pump the latter, the two other OSs that were on par with XP would suddenly gain all the market (being as good as XP, and so better than Vista). The fact that you see so many computers with Vista automatically means that MS is not afraid of introducing an inferior product in the market. Thus the market bending claim.

Re:I agree

[Gr8Apes]

When they started going with those damn distracting flash-bulb like ads I no longer felt badly about killing them. Combined with the only secure browser is a no-scripting by default browser....

Re:I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't use administrator account and you won't see those annoying "do-you-really-want-this" dialogs in Vista. The whole point of Vista was to force user to use non-admin accounts and to use admin account only when they do admin stuff - like installing something. However Microsoft screwed up extremely badly with explaining this to users - even if you install Vista it does not ask you to create admin and non-admin account ...

Re:I agree

[Poromenos1]

I don't switch *because* I am a geek/nerd. Others don't put so much emphasis on the GUI/shortcuts/whatever. I haven't looked into X/Kubuntu, and I really should. I will, one of these days.

Re:I agree

[Velaki]

Read it again. I did not dismiss it for gaming. I asked if it linux supplied it, would you use it over Windows for gaming.

Re:I agree

[MikShapi]

I don't think anyone other than delusional fanboys and marketers who bought into their own hype see Vista as a "failure".

Not being able to run on slower computers does not qualify as a failure, because slower computers are not sold in stores, or constitute niche product at best.

It's a next generation of NT.
It's bigger on resources.
It offers stuff XP didn't (UAC - aka sudo)
It offers improved UI.
It will get tweaked, bugfixed, servicepacked, upgraded etc.

Unlike the days of the 98 -> XP switch, the switch now isn't from something miserably inferior, so the whole upgrade is nice-to-have rather than a must-have, and most people I know relegate it to when their current machine ends its life and they buy a new one, rather than running to a store and buying a copy now (which is what some marketing idiots thought would happen).

In the grand scheme of things, the expectation of people hoarding to replace their existing sufficient rigs is what marked vista as a "failure". It didn't fail. It will sell just fine, whenever people go to a store and actually *need* a new machine, a machine which, in turn, will run Vista just fine.
Rest assured this will happen. It just won't neccesarily happen at a rate some corporate executives in MS and elsewhere would like. Tough noogies for them.

Back to a car analogy - when Toyota pumps out a new model - most people who use a car as a means to an end don't run to replace theirs. They wait until the natural lifecycle of their vehicle ends (whether as an allotted number of years, or the mechanical expiry of the vehicle), then they go out and get a new car. Same applies to Vista nowadays, and the fact that everyone didn't drop what they were doing and immediately buy a new product upon its arrival marks neither the Toyota nor Vista as a failure.

In short, enough fanboy hyperbole.
5 years from now, you'll be loving vista and bitching about the next big MS thing.

Easy

[El Lobo]

You see what you want to see. You want to like Ubuntu (or insert some Linuzzzzz distro here), so this is a good start. We all do. I like Windows (and I damn sure see all it's imperfections). I have used Ubuntu, and it feels very rough to me. But once again: I see what I want to see, and I have no incentive to search some other OS, because in Windows I feel like home. I have a OSX machine at home as well for testing purposes. The system is good but it feels OSX alien to me. Everybody should use the system they like and stop preaching and advocating. use trhe TOOL you like, not the bible you read.

Re:Easy

[kebes]

Everybody should use the system they like and stop preaching and advocating. use trhe TOOL you like, not the bible you read.

Fair enough. However your post is somewhat dismissive, as if you're implying "I don't see the point of these kinds of articles" (if I'm putting words in your mouth, I apologize). To respond to that hypothetical implication: the point of such discussions is that there has to be some way for people to learn about alternatives.

I, for one, was once at a point where I was quite frustrated with my (Windows) experience. Only because people bothered to mention alternatives did I eventually discover that OSX and Linux solved many of the problems I was having.

As you can tell, I'm now a Linux user, so as you say my opinion is inherently biased towards enjoying Linux. So perhaps I gloss over some of the troubles I had along my migration path to Linux. Yet despite that, the experiences (both positive and negative) of people who have legitimately tried multiple operating systems are valuable to others. In fact, it's rather difficult to claim that the majority of Windows users are actually using "the right tool" because very few of them are aware of (much less have evaluated) the alternate tools out there. For many of them, their needs might actually be better served by a non-Windows OS.

I can understand a dislike of evangelical attempts to convert people... but there's nothing inherently wrong with describing, or even advocating, an alternative.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see any troll here.

Well, the usage of "Linuzzz" instead of "Linux" is a typical troll tactic. (I can't think of any legitimate reason to spell it that way: the only purpose would be to annoy.) If you check this user's history of posts you'll see other examples (e.g. here and here).

It's a troll because the exact same information could have been related without being quite so inflammatory. If the user's intention was really only to inform (and not to provoke), then he should have taken additional steps to craft his writing to be more informative and less dismissive of other's opinions.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is wrong with you?! ..forgot to tick "Post Anonymously", eh. Pretty embarrassing.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the usage of "Linuzzz" instead of "Linux" is a typical troll tactic.

As opposed to, say, "M$ Windoze", right?

Re:Easy

[uglyduckling]

Your use of that phrase is currently the only one in this story.

Re:Easy

[El Lobo]

Oh, and intelligent post on slashdot... That is unusual... and welcomed! Actually, I agree with you: there's nothing inherently wrong with describing, or even advocating, an alternative, but when in this site the balance is so quite inclined on one side only, with millions and millions of articles which *subjectively* repeat a preference ad nauseum... It feels like brainwashing to me... Or worst: wishiful thinking... repeating a half-true forever will not make a half-lie a less lie. Advocate all you want in the comments, but when an ARTICLE in the main page, that should be "Stuff that matters" repeats over and over again how some user "liked more some Linuzzz distro", just because it feels right... I mean, come on... "His name is Robert Paulsen., His name is Robert Paulsen., His name is Robert Paulsen.. His name is Robert Paulsen.,His name is Robert Paulsen., His name is Robert Paulsen."

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you also "happy" and "proud" of what steps Microsoft has used to retain its position in the industry or do you just ignore the huge pile of individuals and companies that have been financially destroyed by them and their illegal business practices?

Re:Easy

[El Lobo]

Sorry, I'm a user not a politician. I also buy chinese products.

Re:Easy

[Kalriath]

Not really, there's a Twitter/Erris post a bit up there, so obviously it has been used at least once (isn't it amusing that you need not even read his posts to know he said "Windoze" or "M$" at least 10 times?)

Re:Easy

[grassy_knoll]

Did you just reply to yourself, so you could say you don't see yourself trolling?

Re:Easy

[hyades1]

It would be lovely just to use the system I like. The problem is that Microsoft will quit supporting it and leave me with a potential security nightmare. I have no major complaints with XP Pro, and would happily stay with it for the next 10 years. That's pretty much what happened when I moved from Windows 98 to XP. Since I don't like an intrusive OS that's going to second-guess me every step of the way, my next move will be to whatever flavour of Linux happens to be around when XP is no longer tenable.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Recently? Because, at work, I've used Ubuntu. 6.06.1 (which really isn't that old) was quite rough IMHO. 7.04 was a night and day difference. 7.10 has fixed quite a few remaining rough spots in 7.04 (for instance, switching the video card won't freak 7.10 out.) Ridiculously smooth. It even worked with a Samsung CLP-510 laser printer I've got, which traditionally has required drivers downloaded from Samsung's web site -- it showed up straight off the bat, without having to get the software from Samsung. There's no MPEG4/MP3/etc support (for legal reasons I guess), but the first movie or two I played, the player just said "I need codecs", brought up a screen where I check the boxes, click next, and I'm done -- the movie played. Video, audio, printers, network cards, most wireless cards have worked straight off the bat. A softmac Prism2.5 wireless card did not, but should with ndiswrapper (I didn't get past the LiveCD on that machine.) Creepily, I was even able to install new apps and codecs while running the LiveCD, because they just copy into the ramdisk.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

>Why it's so hard to accept that other people can like Windows, Amiga PalmOs or whatever?

Its not hard but this guy is an exception: he has tried all three OS and made up his mind.
The majority of people only know Windows. Hell, the majority of them only know IE and Outlook.

When you have a choice and choose one over the other, I have no problem. Its called free will.

Still, you wouldnt see me troll a Mac forum and tell them how I think their pride is a toy.
Some people go out of their way to be neutral, hence they feel like trolls.

Of course, I also only support Linux machines in our extended family, so i dont believe in choice ;-)
I was sick and tired of cleaning out their crapware problems and told them as much. I know still support 8 machines on top of my 4 and spend about 75% less time on it.... You are free to run a dual boot if you need that specific software or games.
Out of those 8 that moved to Linux (Kubuntu, PCLinuxOS and Mandriva), 2 didnt like the Linux and I had no problems with it. You tried, you dont like is fine with me.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Slashdot is historically a Linux/OSS-oriented website. Just look at some of the old snapshots of Slashdot frontpage - try the "Jan 25, 1999" one for example. The frequency of Linux stories on Slashdot nowadays is nothing.

Re:Easy

[blitziod]

ok i am happy with ubuntu, having been on XP for years. I purchased a PC with vista and said NO WAY. there are a few things i can not do with ubuntu. Please anybody help with the following: 1. play quick time movies 2. a better IM client ...gain will not let me view webcams or receive files 3. play WOW and other games really this is it..not bad so far...I admit i am not a prof geek...just a geekish person..so please no flames if these problems are easily solved...

Re:Easy

[turing_m]

"So perhaps I gloss over some of the troubles I had along my migration path to Linux."

It's easy enough to do. I've forgotten how hard it was, but not enough that I won't upgrade without using a new HDD to do the full install on rather than wiping the old one. It took me a solid week to get my Feisty setup to where it felt like "home". Dual monitors by hacking the xorg.conf, getting vpn to work, mail and web settings amongst others.

The difference between now and then is that I'm not having recurring pain like I did with XP. No nagging spyware worries is a big one. Knowing that the whole thing has source that anyone can read is also a relief. Knowing that I can upgrade for free and not have everything arbitrarily change on me, just to milk some more fees is another (although I suppose if Canonical are only charging for support, the easiest thing to do once Ubuntu is on enough PCs would be to arbitrarily change things around (like Vista did) so that you are one step ahead when it comes time to offering support. But someone can still fork the code, so much less worry than MS.)

It's also the difference between the linux of 5+ years ago and Ubuntu today. Rather than spyware hell, it was dependency hell, or driver hell, or something else just not working. Now it works.

Re:Easy

[weighn]

I don't see any troll here. Give the guy a break, he's being sincere with his opinion: Did you just reply to yourself, so you could say you don't see yourself trolling?

Pure gold! He replies to himself asking the mods to "give the guy a break". Its nearly the end of the year, surely there is some award we can nominate this for? Get a sock-puppet or post in a calmer state or something.

Re:Easy

[SiChemist]

There are solutions to some of your problems. For the quicktime problem, go to Medibuntu's help page and set up the medibuntu repository. Then, install mplayer, the firefox plugin, and the w32 codecs. (In a terminal, type: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install mplayer mozilla-mplayer w32codecs) Mplayer usually has no problem with quicktime files. If you install the mozilla/firefox plugin, you should be able to view quicktime trailers on the web.

I don't use IM clients very often, so I don't have any advice there. As for WOW, I would suggest checking out Cedega. It's very user friendly and well worth the money. I run several older Windows games with it.

I wanted to say something witty...

[BronsCon]

like "First Post"

But this insight came out instead.

To the end-user, Windows has "security through obstruction", which annoys and gets disabled. To that same end-user, Linux has "security through obscurity", which stays out of the way.

Yes, I know, open source, all the flaws are right there for everyone to see, not obscured at all. That's not what the end-user sees. The end-user just knows that it's more secure because that's what their geek friend told them; they never see why, they never care why and they never need bother with it. This is a good thing. What doesn't annoy them enough that they go out of their way to disable... I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Let's review what we've learned so far this year:
Linux - driver issues. Vista - driver issues.
Linux - learning curve. Vista - learning curve.
Linux - secure until you work around the security in the name of convenience. Vista - secure until you work around the security in the name of convenience.
Linux - annoying until you learn it. Vista - annoying until you learn it AND disable the security features.

Re:I wanted to say something witty...

[El Lobo]

AND disable the security features

Which security features do you find annoying? UAC? Because when the system has comed so long that you don't need to install a driver every day or install a new application you won't see an elevation prompt. i can't remember the last time I saw one of those and I run as a non-admin WITh UAC enabled. Of course the first days with the new machine when installing things are every second operation, it's kind of annoying, but then... you won't see it at all... almost. But as you say, this is a new learning curve and users these days want the easy path and negatively react to any new change even if his life depends on it.

Re:I wanted to say something witty...

[BronsCon]

I apologize for not mentioning that I do use both. I prefer Linux, by far, mostly using Windows for development and testing, sometimes for audio work. I was writing that list from the typical user's perspective, not my own.

That said, as a developer, the path the end-suer takes is VERY important to me. This is precisely why I despise Vista. Being a developer also means I see UAC prompts VERY often because I recognize why not to disable them or run as an administrator all the time.

You have to look from more than one point-of-view, often from more than two, when writing for a diverse audience, and address the concerns of every member of that audience or you will quickly find your audience moving on to other shows.

Re:I wanted to say something witty...

[El Lobo]

Well, MacOS uses exactly the same system. And is even MORE annoying because you don't get only an "accept" or "deny" confirmation. You need to LOGIN again.... And as a Mac developer you WILL feel the same pain. But yet again... they get praised.

Re:I wanted to say something witty...

[BronsCon]

Thus why I want to add at least one Mac to the office. I can't appreciate (or agonize over) the nuances of a platform if I don't use it.

Re:I wanted to say something witty...

[DingerX]

Linux - annoying until you learn it. Vista - annoying until you learn it AND disable the security features.

Add to that:

Linux - constant annoyances when you learn it, and need to get anything to work.
Vista - annoying when you learn it, have disabled the security features, and need to get anything to work.

Linux - You own this turd, and it's worth every penny.
Vista - You paid for this turd, it ain't worth the price, you don't own it, and Microsoft can take it away at any moment.

OS updates have been following the development in technology for the last quarter decade. Has development slowed enough in the last five years that Vista offers users nothing new of substance, and Linux flavors have gotten "good enough" to offer what most users need?

Re:I wanted to say something witty...

[Joe Jay Bee]

True dat. While I love most of OSX, that password prompt always bugs me when I'm installing stuff. And unlike UAC, you can't turn it off... :(

My take on it

[BlueParrot]

Some time ago I accidentally fried my motherboard, so, time to get a new computer. My dad's job was throwing out an "old" machine. The new machine was a bit worse than my original one. It didn't have DDR2 memory, it used a Radeon 9200 rather than my nVidia card, the CPU was an old Pentium 4 rather than my faster AMD chip, and the integrated soundcard I had never heard of.

Anyway, I connect my HD which had Ubuntu Edgy installed on it, boot up. X complains about the video card so I change "nvidia" to "ati" in xorg.conf, type: startx, and 2 minutes latter I am reading my mail in thunderbird.

But you know, I'm sure Vista would perfectly well manage me changing ALL hardware except the HD, running on a P4 with 384MB SDRAM, and be up and running without even a reboot. Oh, and does Aero support virtual desktops yet?

Seriously, given the price and system requirements, Vista is a joke.

Re:My take on it

[lattyware]

And with Gutsy, and it's 'never crash out to bash' ideology, and the x-settings manager that will start if x crashes, you now would not even need to be an intelligent user in this case with Gutsy to get it to work. It's a long-awaited idea, and one that'll be gladly received. It works well too, in 99% of situations. Of course there are some hardware setups that would not work even in this 'safe-mode' style of graphics setup - but they are very few and far between - and anyone using them will probably be able to solve it at a bash prompt, and this is a huge step forward. I've laughed at people for saying Windows is easier. Bull. Windows is more familiar, maybe. But Linux has now been made so much more easy than windows. Installing and using Vista for gaming after more than a year of Linux only use was hell.

Re:My take on it

[Macrosoft0]

also, by changing the hardware, you void the activation of vista; and you would then be screwed.

Re:My take on it

[ArcherB]

Anyway, I connect my HD which had Ubuntu Edgy installed on it, boot up. X complains about the video card so I change "nvidia" to "ati" in xorg.conf, type: startx, and 2 minutes latter I am reading my mail in thunderbird.

The problem with you story is that your average "End LUser" is not going to be able to edit the xorg.conf using vi, and even if they could, probably wouldn't know to change "nvidia" to "ati". The CLI is a bit beyond what most people care to know.

That said, they would have had to work around all the Windows Genuine Advantage crap. Find, download and install every driver the system used, including sound card, chipset, IDE controller, video and so on. However, they would at least have a low res "safe mode" GUI to do it all in. There would be no editing of text files.

Until Ubuntu or whatever distro user can do every single thing in the GUI that they can do through the CLI, Window will have an advantage. MS writes Windows with a GUI in mind from the ground up. Linux is designed to work with or without a GUI. On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux. Some people just can't handle that.

Re:My take on it

[Blahbooboo3]

so I change "nvidia" to "ati" in xorg.conf, type: startx,

And that is the problem with Linux. What non-nerd user wants to do or even would know how to do this sort of thing?
Heck, I am a nerd and if I switch my desktop to a Unix OS I am going to just get a Mac.

Re:My take on it

[BlueParrot]

The problem with you story is that your average "End LUser" is not going to be able to edit the xorg.conf using vi, and even if they could, probably wouldn't know to change "nvidia" to "ati". The CLI is a bit beyond what most people care to know. ...
Until Ubuntu or whatever distro user can do every single thing in the GUI that they can do through the CLI, Window will have an advantage. MS writes Windows with a GUI in mind from the ground up. Linux is designed to work with or without a GUI. On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux. Some people just can't handle that.

Now what a remarkable and amazing coincidence that Gutsy has such a fall-back GUI for fixing broken X sessions. It is almost as if they are working to make it more accessible to non-technical users...

Re:My take on it

[Dunbal]

What non-nerd user wants to do or even would know how to do this sort of thing?

      No, a non nerd would do exactly what they do today. He would take his machine to a computer shop. He would be told to come back in 3 days. The techie would change the xorg.conf line, give the non nerd his computer back 3 days later and charge him $400. So what are you complaining about?

Re:My take on it

[Ginger Unicorn]

you're totally missing the point. in windows that wouldn't have even been an option. he performed a feat with linux that would be totally impossible with windows.

and also the latest version of ubuntu wouldnt even have required dropping to the CLI to sort this out. It now gives you a GUI to correct your graphics settings should the desktop fail to initialise.

Re:My take on it

[heroofhyr]

Until Ubuntu or whatever distro user can do every single thing in the GUI that they can do through the CLI, Window will have an advantage. MS writes Windows with a GUI in mind from the ground up. Linux is designed to work with or without a GUI. On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux. Some people just can't handle that.

What is so different about computers as tools that makes people so damned lazy? Refusing to learn the basics of the command-line is like wanting to own a car but refusing to learn how to pump gas or refill the antifreeze. Sure it's messy, but 1) it doesn't take that long to pick up; 2) although at first it may seem like it because you don't know anything about the subject, you're not actually expected to delve deep into the mechanics of how everything works; and 3) you feel better afterwards for having gained the knowledge. People who claim that the "average" user isn't capable of learning these things obviously is too young or willfully forgetful of the DOS days when everyone's middle-aged neighbour knew the obscure control-code combinations that were required to do anything useful in applications like Wordperfect or Lotus 1-2-3. The fact is, these people haven't become less intelligent since then--just spoiled and expecting everything to be simple and done with buttons and checkboxes. The end result is having to click through those same 400 buttons and 100 checkboxes with puzzling prompts that you don't quite understand just so you can do something that could be done from the command-line in a fraction of the time. You honestly consider that a step forward? Is that the kind of progress I can look forward to from all the Computer Science geniuses graduating in the States who Microsoft gobbles up and puts to work on taking some existing idea and slapping some extra options dialogs onto it? No thanks.

People with that mindset sort of reminded me of some coworkers of mine who seriously prefer using a mouse with VisualAssist to autocomplete C++ code that would take them a few milliseconds to type out manually. A few minutes later and they're still working on that one statement. I'm sure it's a doozy, but meanwhile they could've already been finished if they stopped for a moment and considered whether or not pointing and clicking at things is always a good idea. Then again they tend to be the fellows who come to work dressed in "MICROSOFT C# - Born 2 Code YEAAAAHHH!!!" t-shirts and garbage like that and wonder why half my development environment is crap I had to hand-port to Cygwin just to maintain some kind of sanity and patience when using MSVC. In a word, the reason is because things that should be relatively simple, like creating an empty header file and adding it to a project, end up taking about 45 seconds through Visual Studio's GUI. Yes, that's certainly a step forward over writing a shell script to `touch` and insert a line into a Makefile.

To sum up my thoughts: it's just a perception of greater ease-of-use and efficiency--it doesn't translate well into real productivity. In fact, I've found that most of the improvements to efficiency and maintenance in the workplace have come about by taking some job that I would otherwise have to sit at my desk with the mouse clicking through dialogs and automating it with the command-line.

By the way, the whole fantasy about Windows not needing a command-line and everything can be done from the GUI? Take away the command shell on the computer of a Windows system/network administrator and see if he doesn't punch you right in the face.

Re:My take on it

[drspliff]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you had to have a even the slightest bit of technical sense to be able to do something slightly technical on a frikkin' computer!

You do realise that support channels (forums, irc etc.) exist, and personally I've helped more than a handful of people through similar issues just because they asked nicely and could follow basic instructions depending on their degree of ability.

If a big company chipped in and donated money to people that spent their time supporting a distribution, you might be able to get volunteers to do it over the phone (for those situations where your computer only hosed and all your have is a telephone). Until then there will be small problems which come up, but after all - they are computers!

Now take the Windows situation, you have to search the internet for drivers.. hold on, my modem or network card isn't working because Vista doesn't come with compatible drivers for it and I'm stuck in 800x600 in 16 colours.. I'll just call the Windows support line and get this sorted out...

I've never heard of a Windows support line that doesn't cost the same per minute as your average phone sex line.

My point is that when people are stuck, support is available to them for free if they ask when they use Ubuntu, and less so for Windows. Downloading and configuring drivers is as complex as editing a single line in a text file for non-technical people, but with the right guideance, I'd say the former is easier due to Linux's support for an inherantly larger set of hardware.

Personally, I'd rather have a clueless aunt or uncle call me about Ubuntu than Windows, simply because it's easier to support and more predictable.

Re:My take on it

[uglyduckling]

And that is the problem with Linux. What non-nerd user wants to do or even would know how to do this sort of thing?

Hang-on: think about this. What would happen in Windows? It wouldn't boot. Believe me, I've been there, and if you're a nerd/geek then so have you. In the end you would have had to take the sledgehammer approach and reinstall Windows. The same approach would have worked in Linux too, but Linux (because it's designed that way) has the option of editing a config file to fix it. By the way, changing the xorg.conf file is something that any experienced Linux user would have gladly walked you through on a support forum. It's not that hard to edit a file (much easier that... ooh... regedit maybe?)

Re:My take on it

[ArcherB]

Now what a remarkable and amazing coincidence that Gutsy has such a fall-back GUI for fixing broken X sessions. It is almost as if they are working to make it more accessible to non-technical users...

Well, it didn't seem to work for this guy.

As for my own experience, I've had X go down, which restarted GDM and moved my X console from F7 to F8. I knew to look there, but I don't think your average user is going to know that.

As for a fall-back X session, that is great. I have not seen it myself, but I have no issues with dropping to the CLI to change up my xorg.conf. I actually had to do that to keep my system from defaulting to 800x600 mode. Maybe there is a way to make that stick in X, but I didn't take the time to figure it out since the CLI and vi were easier for me. But since we are comparing this to Windows, Windows will tell you that it has found a new video card and gives you chance to put the CD in the drive to download the driver. First, Ubuntu won't do that because... Second, no video card manufacturer is going to put Linux drivers on the CD.

Here is the latest example I've run across:
Is there a GUI tool in Ubuntu for disabling the power button? My daughter has discovered buttons and likes to crawl around pushing them. I found it in XP without any problems. I can't seem to find it in Ubuntu.

Re:My take on it

[uglyduckling]

On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux. Some people just can't handle that.

On rare occasions, there will be an absolute need to use regedit in Windows, some people just can't handle that. On other rare occasions there will be a need to boot the machine from a dos disk and rewrite the MBR because Windows has borked it, some people won't handle that either. On OSX there's sometimes the need to boot the machine whilst holding down arcane combinations of keys in order to disable something or other... people might struggle with that too.

Let's go back to the abacus, guys.

Re:My take on it

[swillden]

And that is the problem with Linux. What non-nerd user wants to do or even would know how to do this sort of thing?

Did you notice the part of the GP post that said "some time ago..."?

The "problem with Linux" that you mention is fixed in Ubuntu 7.10. When X fails to start, it falls back to a default X configuration that will work on pretty much anything and gives you a graphical environment to fix things up. Said "fixing" of course, requires about three mouse clicks.

Re:My take on it

[xenocide2]

Good news, Bryce Herrington and other Ubuntu developers are working to make this sort of feat feasible for anyone. 7.10 includes a bulletproof X that launches a failsafe session with a very simple xorg config intended to work on all platforms, and runs a program (displayconfig-gtk) that lets you reconfigure the system graphically. It's not perfect, but it's a working start. This typically hasn't been looked at on Linux systems because the command line is passable if you're technically inclined enough to be familiar, and traditional linux users happen to be so technically inclined.

Of course, Macs are just as good -- whenever something goes wrong, you can just buy a new one!

Re:My take on it

[Anonymous Coward]

On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux.

The same situations could (and do) arise in Windows. The difference is that you don't have that tool in your box so you are stuck swapping parts until it takes (which also works under Linux).

Re:My take on it

[Blakey Rat]

you're totally missing the point. in windows that wouldn't have even been an option. he performed a feat with linux that would be totally impossible with windows.

Sure it would be possible, and probably easier. At worst, Windows would boot in Safe Mode (VGA) until you manually installed a new driver, which frankly is just as easy as editing some obscure "conf" file I've never heard of. It doesn't take me any longer to download ATI's driver than it does for me to find some FAQ on how to edit the "conf" file.

At best (and most likely), Windows would automatically detect the new video card and install a placeholder driver, at least a VESA driver, but more likely a somewhat-recent version of ATI's driver.

and also the latest version of ubuntu wouldnt even have required dropping to the CLI to sort this out. It now gives you a GUI to correct your graphics settings should the desktop fail to initialise.

That's great, but what took so long?

Re:My take on it

[NoodleSlayer]

Not even.

They would get a blue screen on boot because windows doesn't like the IDE driver it's trying to pull up. The same would occur if you tried to go into safe mode.

The only recourse would be to try a repair from the install CD effectively "reinstalling" windows.

Re:My take on it

[ArcherB]

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you had to have a even the slightest bit of technical sense to be able to do something slightly technical on a frikkin' computer!

You shouldn't make judgments like that. I said that the CLI is a bit too much for the average Joe. Me, since you've attempted to insult me, let me explain that you are a bit off base. I've used Linux since Mandrake was still called Mandrake and the only Debian based distro was Debian. I have installed Gentoo from stage one and stage three and survived many "emerge --update --deep --newuse world"'s. So please don't make assumptions about me because I said that most non-geeks won't take the time to learn the CLI. Why should they when they pay for Windows and won't have to?

People like you are part of the problem with Linux. The condescending, "I'm a uber-geek and you are all crap for not knowing the answer" attitude has turned many people off from Linux. Fortunately, you are a dying breed. Since your type has little chance of having offspring from your mother's basement, it is only a matter of time before you go extinct. Once that happens, people can use the forums you described without fear of someone belittling them for asking what you think is a stupid question.

You do realise that support channels (forums, irc etc.) exist, and personally I've helped more than a handful of people through similar issues just because they asked nicely and could follow basic instructions depending on their degree of ability. ...
Now take the Windows situation, you have to search the internet for drivers.. hold on, my modem or network card isn't working because Vista doesn't come with compatible drivers for it and I'm stuck in 800x600 in 16 colours.. I'll just call the Windows support line and get this sorted out...

Now let's take a situation I was in last week while installing Feisty on a buddy's notebook. Wireless drivers were not available for his USB Wireless NIC. I had to hit the web from another machine because...duh... the NIC wasn't recognized and try to figure out that trick to use Windows drivers to run a wireless NIC on Linux (NDISWrapper). Of course, then I had to find the Windows drivers, copy them both to the machine, install NDISWrapper, load it using depmod and modprobe, point it to the correct driver file and set it up to load on boot. Of course, there is a GUI that it supposed to help, but it didn't work until I had installed the whole thing using the CLI. Also, if there were no other machines around to look up the instructions and download this stuff, I wouldn't even have a pay-by-the-minute support line to call!

Now keep in mind, I'm doing this while my buddy is watching me. I had been harping on how easy Linux was and finally talked him into letting me install it. He was so turned off that he hasn't booted his notebook since!

Re:My take on it

[jeevesbond]

From the OP:

Anyway, I connect my HD which had Ubuntu Edgy installed on it [...]

Then you posted:

The problem with you story is that your average "End LUser" is not going to be able to edit the xorg.conf using vi

GP:

Now what a remarkable and amazing coincidence that Gutsy has such a fall-back GUI for fixing broken X sessions.

Then you posted:

Well, it didn't seem to work for this guy.

It didn't work because he wasn't using Gutsy. If the op got the same problem now they would have seen the fall-back GUI, not a command prompt. :)

Re:My take on it

[leoxx]

Your criticism rings hollow. Over the years, "average" users have had to learn all sorts of difficult workarounds to use with Windows when things didn't work 100% the way Microsoft intended. In my experience with computer-phobes, switching them to Linux has resulted in less "help my computer isn't working" phone calls than leaving them with Windows does.

Re:My take on it

[dbIII]

IDE driver hassles screw things up when you change the motherboard on an MS Windows system unless it thinks it's the same chipset (which can even differ on boards with the same model name if they are revisions). You can use the install disk for recovery (if you have a full MS install disc which has that on it) but it is not really simple and is hampered by out of date documentation that does not match the tools on the disk. Once you have it going licencing issues can screw the rest up since MS think it is an entirely new PC. It is not as simple as the above poster imagines so a lot of people do a reinstall. I do it with disk images because it can misbehave badly. In contrast with linux and a lot of other things you can usually do a complete upgrade (or downgrade in the case of hardware failure and spare old machines lying about) by putting the disk in another machine.

It's just different behaviour due to most linux machines already having the drivers for a lot of hardware already on the hard disk while on MS Windows you have to specificly install them.

Re:My take on it

[colourmyeyes]

You can go back and forth about using vi to edit x.org, etc., etc., and pretty much all the arguments I've seen here concerning that have merit.

But don't ignore the entire rest of the story - I have tried what the OP is talking about multiple times with both Windows and linux. It sort of works with Windows, but requires a lot of reboots and the system is never totally right (phantom devices and the like). Linux doesn't mind this nearly as much. I currently run a dual-boot laptop - when I'm running Windows, I boot up my linux partition in a VMware vm. No complaints then, none when I reboot into native linux.

For just a one-time swap, Linux is far better at this than Windows. And no, my mom couldn't use vi to edit xorg.conf. But then, she wouldn't be swapping out hard drives between machines, either. Just my two cents.

Re:My take on it

[TheGratefulNet]

"End LUser" is not going to be able to edit the xorg.conf using vi, and even if they could, probably wouldn't know to change "nvidia" to "ati".

you don't HAVE to know anything anymore. you only have to know its out there and searchable and findable.

with free unix, the info is findable and not all that hard to apply. not really any harder than wrestling with MS guis.

seriously. its just editing some ASCII (!) config files. plain english (more or less) config files.

Re:My take on it

[rantingkitten]

The problem with you story is that your average "End LUser" is not going to be able to edit the xorg.conf using vi, and even if they could, probably wouldn't know to change "nvidia" to "ati". The CLI is a bit beyond what most people care to know.

Ask the average user what they'd do if the video settings were messed up in Windows, then. Many will give you a blank stare -- they have no idea what "video settings" means. Maybe you meant "the icons are too big/small".

Some will know enough to futz with resolution settings, but not most. (At my office, all the salespeople have laptops + LCD panel, and the resolution is always horribly mangled on the secondary screen. They either don't notice, or think that's normal.)

How many "average users" know enough to check what kind of video card they have, go to the appropriate vendor's website, download the drivers, and install them? Not many. And let's not act like we've never seen Windows do weird video crap, even on a fresh install. The average user is just as helpless in Windows as they would be in Linux.

And let's be fair -- what the original poster was doing was highly unusual. Very few people would take an old hard drive, stick it in a new computer, and expect it to boot cleanly. Even I wouldn't bother because installing anew is easier than cleaning up the crap. The fact that Linux did it at all, with only one minor config change required, is pretty spiff. The few times I've attempted that, at least with XP, it would bluescreen immediately and never actually boot; either that, or boot into some insane low-resolution, with most of the hardware undetected (or detected as "unknown"), and puking errors all over the place.

Re:My take on it

[LingNoi]

Until Ubuntu or whatever distro user can do every single thing in the GUI that they can do through the CLI, Window will have an advantage.

I really don't get this. When I was growing up everyone was using command line MSDOS and before that my Mum who can't even figure out how to open Internet Explorer was (in the day) able to write a simple program to add extra 000s to a key when she was using accounting software.

Has everyone become stupid? I think not. I think this is all just a windows fanboy myth that people are scared by command line.

Case in point. Changing your IP which I tried to walk someone through and failed.

Windows.
1) Start->Control Panel->Network Settings
2) Find the correct network icon
3) right click -> properties
4) Find TCP/IP in the list-> right click properties
5) Find the correct textbox and enter the number->ok->ok->ok

or something like that..

Ubuntu.
1) Applications->Accessories->Terminal
2) type "sudo eth0 192.168.0.1" -> hit enter
3) type in your login password
4) Close that funny text window and open firefox.

Telling someone over the phone how to do this is easy in Ubuntu but in windows sometimes I fail to get the person to even navigate to the correct configuration window and because I'm not there I can't help them. Hell some of the times I completely forget how to navigate to the correct settings box because I am not in front of a windows computer.

Simple fact is, it is much easier for an expert to walk though someone in the command line then the pointy and clicky. GUI is good when the person is trying to fix the problem themselves and just randomly clicks on stuff but it's not good for tech support. What happens when a computer breaks? You get the phone call with no attempt by the user to try and fix it themselves.

So YES, lets have more GUI but let us not forget that the command line is great for walking though users to fix their system. If it wasn't why has vista got more command line features? eh? :)

Re:My take on it

[Anonymous Coward]

Chances are anything more then a plain vanilla windows install wouldn't even boot. 2K might, XP no (personal experience) Vista definetly not. A Full reinstall would have been necessary.

Re:My take on it

[Lehk228]

why install vista?

i paid more for XP Pro than i could have gotten home premium specifically to avoid Millennium Edition 2

Re:My take on it

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now what a remarkable and amazing coincidence that Gutsy has such a fall-back GUI for fixing broken X sessions. It is almost as if they are working to make it more accessible to non-technical users...

Well, it didn't seem to work for this guy."

          His Ubuntu version didn't have it. Gutsy came out like 3 days ago. This fallback GUI is a new feature in Ubuntu 7.10, 7.04 and previous didn't have it.

          With 7.10, Ubuntu will tell you it's found a new card and.. that's it. Click "Next" and your session comes back up.

          GUI for disabling the power button? I have no idea. If there isn't, Ubuntu 8.xx will probably have it.

Re:My take on it

[drspliff]

My point was more centered around the fact that bigger focus on community support can help non-technical people with most of the issues that can arrise when people migrate over to Linux. Your comments are taken on board though.

Tbh I'm not an "uber geek" like you describe, I love technical stuff, but at the same time I don't mind helping people getting started - but was implying that "free" phone support was too far, but within the funds of the big names promoting Ubuntu and such or through community sponsorship it would be possible to financially help those providing such a service (which would no doubt be benificial if it were widely publicised, printed on the back of Ubuntu cds etc.).

Re:My take on it

[Cheapy]

How does one get to that?

Having to reinstall ubuntu because it crashed when I tried to change the graphics and wouldn't go back to allowing graphics no matter what I tried, I'm somewhat interested in figuring out how to get that fallback GUI up.

Re:My take on it

[lnjasdpppun]

Windows XP can be made to switch hardware without failing, you just need to make it use generic drivers before switching the hardware over which isn't exactly user friendly. The problem is windows XP gets rid of the generic drivers once proper hardware specific ones are installed, so it can't fall back to drivers that work on all hardware. I have heard Vista keeps the generic drivers around now (and will use them as fall back drivers if the hardware specific ones fail) so its (in theory) possible to transplant a Vista install without all the hassle of having to set it back to generic drivers, but I've had no direct experience with Vista yet so I can't say for sure.

Re:My take on it

[TheDugong]

"Now let's take a situation I was in last week while installing Feisty on a buddy's notebook. Wireless drivers were not available for his USB Wireless NIC. I had to hit the web from another machine because...duh..." ...you had not looked at what wireless NICs were supported before doing the install? Or, even better, booted the live cd and tested what worked and did not before writing to disk?

Re:My take on it

[ddoctor]

Now what a remarkable and amazing coincidence that Gutsy has such a fall-back GUI for fixing broken X sessions. It is almost as if they are working to make it more accessible to non-technical users... Yeah, that is a welcome addition, given how easy it is to screw the X configuration. And, yes, its good for making it accessible to non-technical users (more of this, yes please)...

Still, its retarded that this particular issue ever came up. Under what circumstances is it acceptable behavior for a GUI operating system to not be able to display the GUI? Broken or absent video card comes to mind, but a broken config file? Please. Deal with it. I can't believe it has taken this long for a distro to figure this out.

Linux is a pain because its so finicky to get things to work. For such a "robust" OS, it sure is damn easy to break.

Re:My take on it

[deniable]

FUD. I've swapped cards in machines running NT 3.51 to NT 5.1 (XP.) This is the function of /basevideo for NTLDR. It used to be called VGA mode but is now in the F8 Windows startup menu which you will get if you power down "cause the screen aint working."

Re:My take on it

[ArcherB]

My point was more centered around the fact that bigger focus on community support can help non-technical people with most of the issues that can arrise when people migrate over to Linux. Your comments are taken on board though.

Tbh I'm not an "uber geek" like you describe, I love technical stuff, but at the same time I don't mind helping people getting started - but was implying that "free" phone support was too far, but within the funds of the big names promoting Ubuntu and such or through community sponsorship it would be possible to financially help those providing such a service (which would no doubt be benificial if it were widely publicised, printed on the back of Ubuntu cds etc.).

Sorry if I was a bit rough, but that first sentence brought back the rage I feel when I see posts hammering some newbie because they didn't quite know how to do something. Too often I see "RTFM", or "learn to use the damn search engine", or simply reply with a link to another post with a similar issue or, and this on is my all time favorite, the bug report page that is designed and used by the developers. Of course, these uber-geeks are the same ones who wonder why Linux has not taken off and made a dent in the MS market share.

Still, you help. That's more than most. Your idea of a support system for Linux is not bad. Linspire had something like that. It was both corporately and user supported. The help was extremely easy to find as damn near everything had a question mark button on it. The apt-get frontend (Click-n-Run) was so easy to use it was boring. I don't know if they ever made a profit, but they are still in business. I was so impressed, I donated $100 to the cause and this was back when I was a starving student!

Re:My take on it

[ArcherB]

It didn't work because he wasn't using Gutsy. If the op got the same problem now they would have seen the fall-back GUI, not a command prompt. :)

Well if YOU had bothered to read my comment, you have realized that I didn't bother reading his! :-|

You're right, my bad!

Re:My take on it

[deek]

Linux is a pain because its so finicky to get things to work.

  That is quite a generic statement, my friend. And, like other generic statements, it is incorrect for many situations.

  Sure, Linux can be a pain for some things, but it is also much easier for others. I can setup services and software on my Debian system, within minutes. It is _never_ that easy in Windows. Ironically, I'd say that drivers are the area that Linux scores better in, based on my experiences. I've had some nightmare problems with drivers in Windows: finding them, installing them, even fixing them. One recent problem on a Windows XP machine, I couldn't get the motherboard ethernet interface working. I couldn't even reinstall the driver, as both the CD version and the latest downloaded version, would crash when doing the install.

  By the way, guess how I downloaded that recent windows driver ... I booted into Knoppix. It automatically detected the ethernet device, installed the driver, and configured the interface via DHCP. I could even write the driver to the NTFS XP partition. Ahhh, Knoppix, you've saved another situation! That CD is now permanently part of my tech toolkit.

  I tried another few tricks to get the ethernet interface working in XP. Nothing worked. So, I just told the owner that they have to reinstall Windows to get it working.

  Man, for such a popular OS, it sure is damn easy to break.

Re:My take on it

[ArcherB]

"Now let's take a situation I was in last week while installing Feisty on a buddy's notebook. Wireless drivers were not available for his USB Wireless NIC. I had to hit the web from another machine because...duh..." ...you had not looked at what wireless NICs were supported before doing the install? Or, even better, booted the live cd and tested what worked and did not before writing to disk?

If it were me, I probably would have made sure that his NIC was supported in Linux. He is not me and I have no control over his purchases.

Also, this was an old notebook (a 1 Ghz Toshiba with 256 MB RAM). The screen didn't work any more and he wanted it to place in his kitchen to store recipes or whatever on. He came to me looking for an old Win2k server disk that he could use. That's when I talked him into trying Linux.

As for the Live CD... well, it booted, but with 256MB RAM, I wouldn't say that it ran. It was more like it fell asleep in its walker. I made to the third or forth step of the install before it would basically die. It was still running, but it would take about three minutes for the mouse to move. I left it and went to lunch. After I had come back about 1.5 hours later, it was still there, CD drive grinding away, still on the same step where I left it. I had to download the "alternate CD" to run the text-based install.

Basically, when you are salvaging an older system by installing Linux on it, you really don't have much say as to the hardware.

Re:My take on it

[Wordplay]

The other poster responded at length, but didn't address that you obviously missed the point. He didn't just swap a video card. He dropped the hard drive into an entirely new system, which likely invalidated all of the drivers (some of the generic stuff would be the same, but if you invalidate some of the top-level stuff like PCI bus, you invalidate everything attached to it as well).

Re:My take on it

[mibus]

Is there a GUI tool in Ubuntu for disabling the power button? My daughter has discovered buttons and likes to crawl around pushing them.

Is it listed in "Keyboard Shortcuts" in the Control Center? I know "Sleep" is...

(One of my daughters just yanks the laptop off of the kitchen bench if I make the mistake of leaving it there... ;)

Re:My take on it

[jonasj]

Is there a GUI tool in Ubuntu for disabling the power button? My daughter has discovered buttons and likes to crawl around pushing them. I found it in XP without any problems. I can't seem to find it in Ubuntu.

Have you looked in System->Preferences->Power Management?

Re:My take on it

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck, I am a nerd ..

No you're not, you're a windows weenie.
.. and if I switch my desktop to a Unix OS I am going to just get a Mac

Don't worry, you wont, you're stuck sucking Balmer's cock for the rest of
your life.

Re:My take on it

[FooBarWidget]

"And that is the problem with Linux. What non-nerd user wants to do or even would know how to do this sort of thing?"

And this is the problem with old outdated comments (referring to the grandparent). They spread misinformation and give Linux a bad name. The information posted by BlueParrot is completely out of date.

In Ubuntu 7.10 (Gibbon), there's no need for this anymore. Thanks to BulletProof X, if X fails to start because of a video driver issue, the user will be redirected to a graphical configuration tool running in VESA mode. The user can then use that graphical configuration tool to select the correct video driver, and X will work fine again.

People, it's not 1998 anymore. Check out what's possible in the latest version!

Re:My take on it

[FooBarWidget]

It's automatic, and only available in Ubuntu 7.10. If it didn't work for you, you should submit a bug report.

Re:My take on it

[FooBarWidget]

That's X at fault, not the distros at fault. The problem is that XFree86 was so conservative, and wasn't very cooperative with contributors. Now that XFree86 has forked into X.org, development is finally speeding up again, and they're working hard on eliminating the need for a configuration file.

Re:My take on it

[johnsie]

Gutsy has a nice new grahical wizard for installing/changing your grpahics settings ;-)

Re:My take on it

[Anonymous Coward]

and the x-settings manager that will start if x crashes [...] It's a long-awaited idea Yeah, sure. That's why they put it in Windows 95 more than a decade ago.

Re:My take on it

[Blakey Rat]

My practical experience tells me that Windows XP handles this situation just fine. I've swapped hard drives with 2000/XP installs between computers several times, and I've never encountered a situation where 2000/XP would refuse to boot, or go into any kind of reduced functionality mode, because of a lack of motherboard/PCI drivers. And that was from motherboards of completely different brands, never had a problem.

The activation thing is kind of a pain, but if you haven't activated it in awhile you can just do it quickly over the internet. If you have, you have to call, but Microsoft will never refuse an activation request over the phone, it just takes a few minutes. Admittedly a hassle, but not a show-stopper.

Re:My take on it

[mks113]

I did that last night. Put an old laptop HD into a more recent laptop. Ubuntu 6.06 booted up minus graphics.

dpg-reconfigure xserver.xorg or something readily memorizable fixed that for me. Now have to update to 7.1.

I haven't tried to boot XP off the drive yet. Something tells me I'm into update hell on it. Does XP rewrite the boot sector on a repair? I forget how to fix the boot for GRUB after windows has toasted the bootsector.

Re:My take on it

[Ginger Unicorn]

At worst windows wouldn't boot at all. At best it would boot into safe mode, and you would have to either have another machine, or hope networking support would be working enough to hunt around and download all the various drivers you'd need for your new hardware.

The thing that linux is doing that is impossible for windows, is to just swap the hard disc out of one machine to another without having to consider finding and installing new drivers. barring the one minor hiccup that you're decrying, it just works. Fair enough, editing config on the CLI is not user friendly, but it only happened one brand of hardware, and now that hiccup has been removed as an obstacle to casual users.

That's great, but what took so long?

pouting doesn't stop it invalidating your position

Re:My take on it

[Blakey Rat]

At worst windows wouldn't boot at all. At best it would boot into safe mode, and you would have to either have another machine, or hope networking support would be working enough to hunt around and download all the various drivers you'd need for your new hardware.

The thing that linux is doing that is impossible for windows, is to just swap the hard disc out of one machine to another without having to consider finding and installing new drivers. barring the one minor hiccup that you're decrying, it just works.

It "just works" on Windows 2000/XP as well. Seriously. I'm not making this up, I've done it several times.

Re:My take on it

[Ticklemonster]

At least the command line has a GUI! (gnome-terminal, xterm, whatever)

I am an extreme advocate of the GUI in Linux, and I am also an extreme advocate of making Linux as non-terminal intensive as possible. My main reason I want to see Linux as totally user friendly as possible is the simple reason that there are so many people out there whose only desire is to use a computer to browse the internet and use email. Linux is perfect for this as long as it's as simple as possible, meaning never ever ever having to do anything in the command line. And why would I be so driven to being Linux to these people? Because they're stupid. God love them, but they are. They have no idea what they are doing, so they browse the internet, open emails, get ungodly amounts of crap on their machines, and end up with a totally useless box. When they try to have these boxes repaired, they are told that it will cost 200 dollars. I fix them in little or no time for usually 50 bucks in my spare time. Now I would turn these people on to Ubuntu, which I use, but it's still just not quite totally there yet.

I expect it will be within two years IF and only IF the developers stop focusing on eye candy, and stick to the fundamentals of what would make Ubuntu THE primary Linux distro that any moron could install, run, upgrade and never be locked out of X, or have any catastrophic failures.

Ubuntu excites me because of the vision they have. They will be bringing this to the masses one day, I'm sure of it. The beauty of it is; on the one hand you have a KISS operating system that anyone can use without the fear of ending up with a useless box that will cost $$ to fix, and on the other hand, you have a highly technical operating system with a terminal that tech-oriented folks can use any way they want. Remember, no matter how much gui based an os is, as long as there's a command line, the techies ought to feel at home. And what is the problem in that?

Re:My take on it

[joke_dst]

This is not true. On the three computers so far I've tried Gutsy, two came up with a flickering monitor with nothing but artifacts. I had to reboot and go to "safe graphics mode".

I couldn't open a prompt either, I could "guess" it was there but it was the same strange artifacts.

This is probably a graphics driver problem, one of the computers had a on board graphics chip of unknown origin. But the other had a nVidia board.

(and no, I didn't file a bug. At the time I had stuff to do)

Re:My take on it

[SiChemist]

I don't know about a gui method for disabling the power button, but you can edit /etc/acpi/powerbtn.sh and make it do anything you want. I would suggest making a backup of powerbtn.sh (sudo cp powerbtn.sh powerbtn.sh.bak) and then editing the original. (You might get away with just deleting it.)

Re:My take on it

[SiChemist]

On different hardware, or identical hardware? I've tried swapping drives with Windows before and gotten the same problems the earlier posters complained of.

Re:My take on it

[Blakey Rat]

Different hardware. One specific example I remember was going from a 400 mhz beige-box with Windows XP installed to a Dell Precision 340. For the purpose of moving files, since the network card on the 400 mhz was busted.

(And yes, XP does run acceptably on a 400 mhz computer as long as you have enough RAM. 256 would be a challenge, but if you can shove 512 in it, it'll run fine.)

Re:My take on it

[brunascle]

I've done it several times.

as have I, and i've found it works sometimes. when it doesnt, it blue screens immediately at the first sign of the windows loading screen. and then it restarts before you have time to read the error message. this is consistent and reproducible (specifically, the latest was my GFs HDD from an Alienware AMD DDR1 will not boot in my AMD X2 DDR2).

i've only found this to happen when it's the motherboard that changes. video card, sound card, nic, those are never a problem, but if you change the motherboard prepare to reinstall windows.

also, this was just in an issue of PC Format (from the UK). the response to reader's letter explained that you cannot take a HDD from one windows machine and expect it to boot from another.

Re:My take on it

[dbIII]

My practical experience tells me that Windows XP handles this situation just fine

Mine doesn't - google for other examples and Microsoft docs on the issue to show you how it was luck or the same chipset that made it simple for you - it can be a very time comsuming annoyance and certainly halts at boot in many situatuations (hence booting from the install CDROM and using the recovery tools to feed it the right drivers). I suppose it's a good reason for a company to have uniform desktop hardware - you would not see this problem if you are moving it into effectively the same PC.

Why do they always do this

[kcbanner]

I've seen this happening for awhile. The headline will read "*Insert Latest Release of X Distro Here* vs Vista!"

Personally I don't get it...why do we always have to compare the features of X distro with the latest Windows release? The very fact that we are doing so is degrading to the distro, its basically saying that the distro should be like windows...as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark. The whole point of using *nix/*bsd is to be different from the mainstream...be more efficient, productive, whatever.

Why do we always have to compare the two OSes as if they should both be the same...this is the completely wrong thing to be doing. The linux distro will get rated down because it doesn't have some windows bug/feature. I don't get it.

So people, please stop your incessant comparisons and side-by-side screenshot postings...they can't be compared as if they were cars; they are Different Things

Oh, and first post, woo.

Re:Why do they always do this

[BronsCon]

On the contrary, often times it's saying the newest Windows version should be more like Distro X. And yes, it is degrading to Windows.

Until my old scanner gets a working Linux driver, I still have a use for Windows. Hopefully being locked in the basement, fed barely enough to survive and being made to operate specialized equipment, recieving attention only when your work is needed, isn't too degrading. Okay, now I'm starting to feel sorry for Windows.

Re:Why do they always do this

[Chandon Seldon]

they can't be compared as if they were cars; they are Different Things

They absolutely can be compared like they were cars.

Vista is like a short bed gasoline pickup truck. You can perform most day to day tasks with it, but it gets horrible gas mileage and can't handle edge cases (4 passengers, seven foot long cargo) very well at all.

A distro like Ubuntu is more like a VW Golf TDI that can transform into a panel van or 18 wheeler when necessary. It's obviously superior in every way, but people complain about stupid stuff like gas stations that don't sell diesel and how hard it is to get through a 10' tunnel when you're in 18-wheeler mode.

Re:Why do they always do this

[Machtyn]

It is true that these comparisons are not apples to apples. But it's the best thing we've got when trying to convince the average joe that Linux/BSD is just fine for them to use over Windows.

Re:Why do they always do this

[Tuoqui]

It is good to have DIFFERENT THINGS... But the fact is at the end of the day you have to pander to the End Users of the world. This means making things that JUST WORK and work the way they expect (Windows).

If Linux as a whole can ever get End Users off the Microsoft teat then they'll be able to slowly make changes to make things better. As it is from any Microsoft environment to a Linux one is a little bit of a culture shock even if everything works (but not as they expect it to)

Re:Why do they always do this

[im_dan]

I don't like flimsy articles rehashing the same old stuff just because a new distro is out either. It the rest of what you've said

they are Different Things They are both operating systems. They are very much the same thing, we should compare them so we can choose between 2 competing products and decide which would suit our needs.

as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark I know you don't agree with that and neither do I, but like it or not Microsoft operating systems are number 1 based on the number of installs and that's why a comparison is prudent.
A worthwhile review would be one that covers the top 3-4 operating systems and outlines strengths and weaknesses of each, but I think most people on /. have already done that for themselves

Re:Why do they always do this

[Dunbal]

its basically saying that the distro should be like windows...as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark. The whole point of using *nix/*bsd is to be different from the mainstream...be more efficient, productive, whatever.

      So tell me, why does Windows try so hard to be like "X"? unix had it first. What, you think Apple and Microsoft were being ORIGINAL when they "invented" the GUI?

      People LIKE GUI's, so long as they're not (too much of) a resource hog and obfuscate things instead of making them easier. Why are you trying to fight it?

Re:Why do they always do this

[kcbanner]

I was referring to X not as in X11 but as in the variable X for "X feature".

Re:Why do they always do this

[Dunbal]

Vista is like a short bed gasoline pickup truck. You can perform most day to day tasks with it, but it gets horrible gas mileage and can't handle edge cases

      Also make sure that you haul only MPAA/RIAA approved cargo. In fact, some of the time the truck will refuse to run even if you don't haul the "wrong" things. Oh and make sure you buy the special, approved brake pads and tyres (they're just the same only 5 times the price) if you want nice looking custom hubcaps, otherwise the wheels might fall off.

Re:Why do they always do this

[moderatorrater]

A distro like Ubuntu is more like a VW Golf TDI that can transform into a panel van or 18 wheeler when necessary. It's obviously superior in every way, but people complain about stupid stuff like gas stations that don't sell diesel and how hard it is to get through a 10' tunnel when you're in 18-wheeler mode. I'm going to go further and say that it can be a car, a semi, a fleet of semis (beowulf cluster), a missile, a tank, an RC toy, or a cd player. It can also infect others with itself (through virtualization like Xen; haven't heard of any virtualization software that runs off of windows yet). I'd say linux is like a mix between the borg and the transformers.

Re:Why do they always do this

[whoever57]

This means making things that JUST WORK and work the way they expect (Windows).

IMHO, it is a complete myth that Windows "just works". Recent example:

Plug camera into windows system. Needs to install drivers, oops, won't install. Need to log off an log on again as Administrator. IMHO, "Run As" only works in about 50% of cases.

Plug camer into Linux (Ubuntu) system. JUST WORKS. Photo application opens automatically. Did not need to find driver CD, install s/w etc.

There are many such examples of this.

Re:Why do they always do this

[DragonWriter]

Personally I don't get it...why do we always have to compare the features of X distro with the latest Windows release?

Uh, because if the Linux share of the computing world is going to grow, its got to be at the expense of Windows. There ain't anywhere else for it to come from.

The very fact that we are doing so is degrading to the distro, its basically saying that the distro should be like windows

No, its saying that the distro has to provide a reason to choose it over Windows. Now price is one, of course, but often not enough, given the fact that most software that consumers are aware of is written for Windows. So people have to know that what they are doing in Windows can be done in Linux, either with the same software (through Wine or otherwise) or through alternatives which are functionally adequate, and ideally superior in some way (again, price is often one way, but often not enough.)

as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark.

Windows is the baseline. If people buy computers without actively choosing an OS, its what they are most likely to end up with. It is what most people who might switch to Linux, given an adequate reason, are using now. The facts make it the baseline.

The whole point of using *nix/*bsd is to be different from the mainstream...be more efficient, productive, whatever.

And, ideally, that's what the comparisons show: that the Linux way is better, for which it must first be at least as good and must be usable.

Why do we always have to compare the two OSes as if they should both be the same

We don't; OTOH, one of the barriers to transition is fear of the difficulty of switching. So demonstrating that things are similar enough that this fear is overblown is a way of overcoming that.

The linux distro will get rated down because it doesn't have some windows bug/feature. I don't get it.

Well, if it doesn't have a windows feature, then people choosing to leave Windows for it will be losing something. So that's a valid reason for it to be rated down. And sometimes missing a bug can result in missing a feature that matters to users, like compatibility with particular software. Though that's, I would assume, less frequently a problem.

So people, please stop your incessant comparisons and side-by-side screenshot postings...they can't be compared as if they were cars; they are Different Things

Two different cars are different things just as much as two different OS's are; like different cars, different OS's are different tools which can be applied to the same task. Comparing them side-by-side as it relates to that task is not a bad idea, but a good one.

Re:Why do they always do this

[PitaBred]

That's funny... I use Linux for my scanner for the same reason. It won't work with Windows Vista, and there are no plans to update the drivers for it to do so. It's a great scanner, and it works perfectly under the absolute latest versions of Linux, and has for years. Perhaps you should upgrade your hardware, or check out Linux again? I've found very few non-cheapie scanners and such that don't work under Linux.

Re:Why do they always do this

[uglyduckling]

as if somehow Window is the "baseline" for this benchmark

Yup, it is. It's the most popular desktop OS on the planet. Other than some killer apps (which I admit is a big 'other') and certain hardware, most Linux distros will exceed the baseline of Windows by some margin in a number of areas. It's good to compare and see where Windows is winning or losing. It's certainly not about seeing how far Linux has managed to copy the features of Windows. That's what Wine is for.

Re:Why do they always do this

[c_forq]

This should have been posted by Bad Analogy Guy. In fact, I'm kind of surprised he hasn't responded in anger for you taking over his posting duties.

Re:Why do they always do this

[ucblockhead]

And OS/X is so, so clearly a Prius.

Re:Why do they always do this

[BronsCon]

Check out Linux again? I run Gutsy on all but my CentOS 4 server and the Windows box I use for my OLD scanner; I almost forgot to mention the laptop next to the couch. The new Epson in the office is great, thank you very much.

The Windows machines in my home have very specific uses. The system next to my TV, with my older HP printer and my HP scanner attatched, is primarily a media center. The associated laptop (8 year old hardware) is used for light web browsing, as an extremely well-featured remote control (via 802.11g) for the media center and to VNC into said media center when the resolution of the TV screen isn't enough for a certain task (or to take the show into the kitchen or restroom, rather than pausing and making the rest of the audience wait while someone grabs a drink, or relieves themselves of one they grabbed before the movie started).

I live in an apartment building and, though I'm the newest tennant, I'm also the loudest and people don't seem to mind. Perhaps that's because i'm only loud when we're all outside; passing the wi-fi-remote-laptop around, each taking a stab at playlist management while we're barbecueing.

Or, maybe it's because my grandparents have managed this place since before I was born. I'd guess that was the reason if anyone other than the two maintenence guys knew it. They don't.

Even my non-geek neighbors (and there's a few geeks living here, as well) take interest when I talk about Linux. They see the system I have set up. They see Windows, because that's what the front-end of it runs on. They, for some sick reason, love to hear about the back-end; they ask about the Linux setup I have running everything behind the scenes, from storage, to routing, to access control, ot the fact that every other computer in the apartment runs Linux.

These are the non-geeks taking interest here. Linux is building a name. I've even had neighbours try and nudge me out from infront of MY laptop so they could see what all the fuss was about.

My neighbours also pay my rent. I fix their computers for them and, as they gain comfort with Linux, have been transitioning them one-by-one. So far, it's been well-recieved; only one of my migrated users relies on windows at all, for Photoshop, which doesn't fare too well under winE.

Thank you for your suggestion. Your heart is in the right place. Might I direct you to change your method, however? It wouldn't take long to read through my post history and learn that I do use Linux regularly and that the scanner in question has been replaced.

Why do I need 2? Simple. What's in my office belongs to my business. What's in the living room can be used by either my fiancee or myself. I have 3 printers, as well. One in the living room, for common use and two in the office; one is for invoices and mailers (mostly service reminders "have you backed up lately?") and one for everything else.

What can I say, I like being well organized. Electronically, at least; I don't do so well on paper.

Re:Why do they always do this

[Anonymous Coward]

A distro like Ubuntu is more like a VW Golf TDI...

No, Linux is like a 1972 Volkswagen Beetle that has been sitting disassembled in the back of your friends garage for the last 12 years. He swears to god that it just needs a little tinkering, and then it will run great. And, you can buy a nitrous oxide kit from JC Whitney that will make it faster than a Ferrari!

Re:Why do they always do this

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad Analogy Guy is like a Volkswagen Golf that can turn into an entire 18-wheeler full of oranges. You certainly can't compare him to an Apple, but you might be able to compare him to a semi-trailer full of apples.

Re:Why do they always do this

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, are you lost? I think you intended to post somewhere else...you are entirely too reasonable for /.

Re:Why do they always do this

[Kelz]

Also: theres no real "rice rocket" mode for the linux distro, all it has is a '89 honda windjammer with thin tires (I'm talking about games here).

Re:Why do they always do this

[fractoid]

You mean it uses a ridiculous amount of technology to achieve moderate success, and attracts a fan base of irritating hippies? :P

Personally I'd go with the Golf TDi that can metamorphose into a flatbed truck, a roller skate, or a fleet of Boeing 747s on demand. ;)

Re:Why do they always do this

[fractoid]

But... but... my car goes to 11!

Re:Why do they always do this

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu a transformer? I guess Vista must be an Evil Decepticon.

Re:Why do they always do this

[kaizokuace]

The Vista analogy is about correct except that its a new truck with OBD3 (whenever OBD3 comes out). So if home base thinks you might have stolen your own car because you didn't do a rain dance before putting in the key they shut you down. Also since its Vista it has to be a riced out truck. But when you get locked out all the bling falls off in the middle of the road. Also you cant get your stereo to work if you try to put music in it.

Re:Why do they always do this

[u-235-sentinel]

A distro like Ubuntu is more like a VW Golf TDI that can transform into a panel van or 18 wheeler when necessary. It's obviously superior in every way, but people complain about stupid stuff like gas stations that don't sell diesel and how hard it is to get through a 10' tunnel when you're in 18-wheeler mode.

Sounds to me like they haven't watched the movie "Transformers". If Optimus Prime can do it ...

Re:Why do they always do this

[Anonymous Coward]

A part of me wants to get a tattoo of this.

Nice job!

And your point is?

[rustalot42684]

I don't want to be a defeatist, but...
In my opinion, it doesn't really matter whether ubuntu is better, because Microsoft already has >90% of the market. Be realistic: 2008 will not be the year of the Linux Desktop. Neither will 2009. Or 2010. When a company has that much marketshare and actively tries to keep others from entering the playing field, it's not really going to happen. Most people just want to sit at the computer and do their work. I use the Vista on my laptop only about 3% of the time; otherwise I'm using Kubuntu. When I'm on the bus and the person asks me about compiz, I happily tell them about Linux. But the momentum of Microsoft Windows is so large that Linux will not become a widely-used desktop OS.

Re:And your point is?

[ThePhilips]

[...] Microsoft already has >90% of the market.

Correction: "Microsoft still has >80% of the market."

Do not make such mistakes anymore! ;)

N.B. fyi, Ubuntu is distributed freely so it is not part of market.

But the momentum of Microsoft Windows is so large that Linux will not become a widely-used desktop OS.

There is a huge difference between "momentum" and "inertia".

Today you use KUbuntu. You feel like a black sheep. Tomorrow you suddenly find that some other your friend uses . Then one more friend. Then one more. Then you just stop counting.

That's how it happens - w/o anyone really noticing. I'd place any Linux user over 10 Windows users simply because every Linux user made a choice. While more or less every Windows user have what he got with computer - preinstalled. Choice is a barrier. Choice is important. Choice is all the difference between Linux and Windows.

Re:And your point is?

[Dunbal]

because Microsoft already has >90% of the market. Be realistic: 2008 will not be the year of the Linux Desktop. Neither will 2009. Or 2010. When a company has that much marketshare and actively tries to keep others from entering the playing field, it's not really going to happen.

      Yeah, they used to say that about hmm let's see, OS/360, VAX/VMS, DOS... etc. Revolutions DO happen. It's up to you if you want to be late to the game or not. The ONLY thing I can't do in linux is play the latest games, or use some "Internet Explorer only" websites. I can do EVERYTHING else just as well or better.

Re:And your point is?

[N7DR]

Today you use KUbuntu. You feel like a black sheep. Tomorrow you suddenly find that some other your friend uses . Then one more friend. Then one more. Then you just stop counting.

Yep. I have been telling people for years that Linux is where the future is. Mostly they've politely ignored me, but I have long felt that the main point has been made: each of those people has heard someone say good things about Linux. That sort of thing sticks.

Today I walked into a meeting room for an organisation with which I've worked off and on for years, many of whose employees have heard me praise Linux on various occasions. On the blackboard from the previous meeting was a list of bash commands. I asked someone what the meeting has been about. He broke into a grin and said, "You'll love this; we've decided to move to Linux instead of Vista". Obviously, they didn't just do this because of me. I was doubtless just one of many bricks in the wall. But the wall got build, though it took several years. I have a great deal of confidence that that story is going to be repeated so many times over the next decade that we'll eventually get bored of hearing how someone else has made the switch; it'll be an everyday occurrence. Even though it doesn't look like it, I believe Linux has already reached critical mass: the chain reaction has just started, and it's only going to get faster.

Re:And your point is?

[GamerCowboy]

The ONLY thing I can't do in linux is play the latest games

And even that is getting better. It might just be that two Linux-friendly game companies (id and epic) are releasing games this year but even the Windows-only games that I'm interested in (Lord of the Rings Online and World in Conflict) work pretty well in Wine. No, it's not perfect and it definitely frustrates me but it definitely works.

In my humble opinion, we don't need a Year of the Linux Desktop. Just as Firefox is considered by many to be a success even though its share of the browser space is much smaller than IE's, Linux on the desktop is already a success in many people's households. This was the year of Linux on my desktop at least.

Re:And your point is?

[Anonymous Coward]

If this was a single case, maybe, but even Microsoft can fall, if they screw up bad enough and for long enough. Do you think people will still be using Microsoft Windows in 2100?

Walk into a Seattle coffee shop and look at the computers. I'm 15 miles away from Microsoft world headquarters, and I see 90% MacBooks, 5% Linux, and 5% Windows. (And no, this isn't a meeting of programmers; at those you see 95% Macs, 5% Linux.) I know a lot of people at small businesses, and every small business I know uses Macs (and often Linux on servers).

Before this job, I worked at a big company, also in Microsoft's backyard, and even the die-hard Windows geeks were buying Macs. Pretty soon the business world is going to recognize that Windows is the system for you only if you're a big company with a million lines of legacy code you need to keep running. From your sysadmins down to your janitors, not even your own employees are going home to Windows PCs.

People keep saying that Microsoft has a 90%+ monopoly. If you don't count corporate installs, are they even a plurality?

Re:And your point is?

[westlake]

N.B. fyi, Ubuntu is distributed freely so it is not part of market.

which would matter if the OEM system install of Windows or OSX didn't define the PC for all but a tiny minority of users who get to make a choice.

Re:And your point is?

[femtoguy]

>> I don't want to be a defeatist, but...

I don't think you are defeatist, I just think that you lack imagination. I don't mean that to be too negative, but one of the biggest problems in the "cutting-edge" world of computers is a complete lack of imagination. Microsoft, a company that sees itself as one of the most innovative companies in the world, is working on a 20-year-old business model. That's right, 20 years ago they made their money selling computer operating systems to computer manufacturers, and they had a word processing program, and they are doing the same thing today. Sure they have Zunes and X-boxes and MSN.com but none of them make any money. Sure their OSs look different, and have lots more features, but it is the same business model.

Now, here's a truly innovative business model. (If you steal it, give me credit, and a little money, if you make it). Make a computer whose sole purpose in life is to be a portal to google. I don't care what processor you use, how much memory, it doesn't need a hard drive or an optical drive. I don't even care if it is Linux or whatever. Just get a browser running that does AJAX well, and give me search, shopping, gmail, google maps, google office suite, and some sort of IM. Make it $200 so that I can buy one for my mom and not feel bad if she doesn't use it. Don't make it upgradable, just make it cheap enough that when it gets old enough I can trade it in for a newer model and keep working. Doesn't even have to be google oriented, Yahoo or even MS could do it too. We have just gotten so used to having a thick, upgradable client that needs lots of care and feeding that we have gotten used to it, but computers need to be like telephones or DVD players, or digital cameras or cell phones. Partner an asian manufacturer with the right software company and it could just work.

Re:And your point is?

[haeger]

he ONLY thing I can't do in linux is play the latest games, or use some "Internet Explorer only" websites.

How I wish that was true. I really do.

I am using Kubuntu in my company which is very much a windows shop. There are so many things that don't work as well as they should when it comes to windows/linux interoperability.
Our printers are setup in an "Active Directory" so after an AD-login in windows "\\ad-name.domain.name" the printers show up. In linux they don't. Although machines and folders do.

You can fetch/send mails in linux via Exchange, but things like shared calendars and folders/notes are not there (yet).
The web-client of Exchange is horrible if you don't use IE, in which case you get (almost?) the same functionality as you do in regular MS-Outlook (calendars, contacts and all)

MS-Office connects into sharepoint so that I can edit files there and if you use IE you get more functionality (more or less essential functionality) than with any other browser.

Don't get me wrong here. I fscking hate that I need MS-Windows, but the fact remains that I do if I want to be able to do my job.
This isn't a complete list either, I could easily add another 10 or so things that don't work well but I think you got my point.

Currently I run MS-Windows in VMWare (which I had to install from source since gutsy don't ship vmware yet, not very pleasent to find out after an upgrade) and unfortunatly the fact that I need MS-Windows will not change anytime soon. I'm still hopeful and try to file as many bugreports as I possibly can.
I file them in http://launchpad.net/ in the hope that someone somewhere will propagate them upstream if that's needed.

.haeger

Re:And your point is?

[u-235-sentinel]

Today you use KUbuntu. You feel like a black sheep. Tomorrow you suddenly find that some other your friend uses . Then one more friend. Then one more. Then you just stop counting.

Recently I attended SANS 2007 in Las Vegas and was VERY surprised to see how many people were running Ubunbu Linux on their laptops. Nearly half the students had switched in the last couple years from Windows. And we have Vista to thank for that. All the stories then the reality pushed people to say they've had enough.

It was a really cool experience (Oh and the class was awesome!)

Re:And your point is?

[Spudds]

The ONLY thing I can't do in linux is ... use some "Internet Explorer only" websites. FYI: Yes you can; IE works perfectly well in wine (I'm not sure about 7). There's even an incredibly easy way to install it: ies4linux.

Just an FYI.

Re:And your point is?

[Risen888]

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter whether ubuntu is better, because Microsoft already has >90% of the market... When a company has that much marketshare and actively tries to keep others from entering the playing field, it's not really going to happen.

America Online. Standard Oil. AT&T. You keep poking them with millions of small sticks until the fuckers die.

Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

I did a complete reformat of my system for Gutsy. Installed from the CD, and ended up with the black screen of death on restart.

Of course, I was able to get out of it. That's not really the point. The point is I had to do a bunch of command line hackery just to see the login screen for the first time.

Re:Different experience here

[kcbanner]

I'm confused...couldn't you have just dist-upgraded or whatever its called in Ubuntu. I know in my distro (Arch Linux) I just run one command and I'm up to date with the latest release (rolling release system.).

I find it mind-numbingly astounding that someone would format to upgrade their linux distro. Ubuntu really is trying to copy Windows.

Re:Different experience here

[ambrosen]

Well, they could have, but for some reason decided to go about things the hard way.

Re:Different experience here

[kcbanner]

Must have been a previous Windows user? The knee-jerk reflex: "Format!!"

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Ubuntu is trying to copy windows. Kind of like Windows is trying to copy Macintosh. And how Macintosh copied thier GUI from XEROX. And how XEROX stole the concept of a "file" from "Industrial Paper Products". Lets all ignore the obvious shortcomings of both operating systems and point out how the new Chevrolet Corvette is trying to copy the Ferrari 355. Just like Sears is trying to copy ACE Hardware by selling tools, and K-Mart is trying to copy Time Supermarket by selling groceries. Can we get off the whole COPY trip and realize that there are certain services and interfaces that people EXPECT when they use an operating system - much the way there are certain lines someone expects from a sports car, and certain products someone EXPECTS from a department store. These interfaces ultimately make or break the experiences people have while using an operating system, and straying away from common concepts tends to drive the userbase away from the product, as well as making for a difficult learning curve. A good idea is simply a good idea.

Now if we want to point fingers at who's "trying to copy" lets look at Microsoft for a moment and see what they've "copied". Flippy triangles from OS-X - Check. "TAB completes file/path in command shell" function from Unix - Check. Spinning wheel wait cursor from OS-X - Check. "Mount volume in folder" function from Unix - Check. Window maximize/minimize animations from original MacOS - Check. Clock in the start bar - another MacOS first - Check. IE7 RSS, Windows "version" of the apple searchlight feature, gadgets/widgets - shall I go on?

I'm not trying to start a flame war here - I have all of the above operating systems, and I'm the biggest anti-MS-elitist if you listen to the people around me. But if you listen to me, I'm just in search of a good product that doesn't annoy the hell out of me while I'm trying to work. And I think the world is with me when I say - somewhere, someone seems to have forgotten that the purpose of a computer was to SIT QUIETLY BENEATH A DESK and FACILITATE, or at least NOT INHIBIT ME from DOING WORK. Its primary function should not be to bother me about updates to Quicktime, it should not ask me "did you just click this" - I know I just clicked it; You're the operating system - taking commands from me - you don't know what I'm doing? And if Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse, Mandriva, Yellowdog, Redhat, Windows, OS-X, Solaris or anything else can shut up and allow me to work uninhibited, without contributing to spam, botnets, virii, worms, or otherwise destroying the Internet - I'm all in. -=-K-=-

Re:Different experience here

[El_Oscuro]

I just upgraded a Ubuntu computer from 6.10 to 7.04. The experience was about the same as applying SP2 to XP.

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't like I keep a bunch of media on this computer. All I've got is source code and application packages. The one is in SCM, the other in package repositories. Plus I got to re-partition. Granted, I could have done all of this without reinstalling (even the partitioning), but sometimes it's nice to have a fresh start to clear out the cruft I don't use anymore.

Re:Different experience here

[kcbanner]

So then the sarcasm truck came and hit the dude, slow speed but he couldn't figure out what it was...then it backed up and hit him again...turns out he was fine but he still didn't know what it was.

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

At least you were able to install something.

I reformatted my Vista preinstalled HD in order to make some partitions, and when trying to reinstall Vista the installer just say it cannot install on any of the partitions I made (Yes, all of them had enough space). I didn't have the chance to get even a Blue Screen of Death (or the newer Red one)

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried a dist-upgrade on my Feisty laptop. It locked up halfway through and left it unbootable.

I ended up doing a clean install, which was no problem for me as I have a reasonable size home network and everything important is centralised and backed up, but it wasn't good.

Re:Different experience here

[pimpimpim]

Actually, no. He describes an upgrade went flawlessly, but an install of gutsy from scratch on another pc ended up in xorg problems, and looking for "dubious advice in fora". The stuff we all know too well.

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

This gets a 5? What was the problem?

Re:Different experience here

[DaFallus]

I recently formatted my old Ubuntu drive and installed Gutsy on it as well. Almost everything went well with the install, and it detected Windows on another drive and allowed me to copy some settings, etc. What annoys me is the fact that there was no plain and obvious way to configure GRUB during the install. Once Ubuntu figured out what partition to install itself on it didn't ask me any questions about which OS to list first by default on the boot list, etc. On top of that, my "Ubuntu 7.10" option on the GRUB menu list was configured incorrectly. The installer formatted and copied Ubuntu onto hd3, but in the GRUB menu it was set to boot from hd1. It gave me a "system cannot mount this volume" error every time. I mean WTF? Once I figured it out it wasn't a huge pain to fix but I still think it never should have been an issue. It also annoys me that I have to edit the menu list file and manually move all the Windows text to the top to make it the default option. I also can't seem to figure out how to get Ubuntu to automatically mount my NTFS drives. I've searched around and played with fdisk but as of yet I have had no luck. I'm sure a lot of people around here would consider that a trivial and almost stupid issue to have, but I still haven't been able to get it to work.

I have my degree in CS but I don't have too much experience with Linux (use Windows at work and at home for games). Usually I can figure out how to solve whatever annoying little problems I run into while using Linux because I at least sort of know what I'm doing. What about those average users? How hard would it be to add a little menu dialog that lets you choose what the default timeout boot option should be?

Other than that, I love 7.10 and I've already began trying to figure out what it will take for me to switch over 100% from Windows.

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be a distro-troll here, but with Mandriva I booted up the MandrivaOne live CD, double clicked on "install" and browsed the internet while it installed. Then it told me it was okay to reboot, so I did, created the root password and initial user and clicked "okay" a couple of times and... that's it. It runs beautifully, only problem is it's not possible to run Blender with Compiz Fusion.

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, if you had the common sense to test the CD in the default live mode before you wiped your hard drive, you would have easily seen any problems without the uphill battle you ended up with.

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, I did that. Otherwise, I'd have mentioned a black screen of death when I booted from the CD rather than when the install was finished.

Re:Different experience here

[Anonymous Coward]

Deleting the x11 configuration file and regenerating it fixed the problem. Why wasn't it correct by default? I have no idea. One of life's mysteries, I guess.

(And you should stop trying to find a correlation between posts and their scores for your own sanity. Moderation is often done by drunk, dyslexic monkeys. Worse, they're drunk, dyslexic monkeys with an agenda. Worse, you probably have an agenda, too... it just isn't the same one.)

I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

...But I'll take XP on the desktop over Ubuntu (or Linux) any day. Ubuntu 7.10 is a pain to install, setup and use compared to XP. Few things I need "just work" in Linux.

Before you suggest it, I'm a hardcore geek from way back. Waaaay back. But these days I simply don't have time to spend all day and night just getting an OS to work. I have a wife and kids now, not to mention actual work to accomplish.

There aren't enough hours in a day/night leftover for ploughing through howtos, or trawling usergroups, for the info necessary just to, say, get 7.10 or Mandriva 2008 to connect to the LAN.

On the server, *nix rules, but on the desktop it has a very long way to go before it can compete with XP on an even footing. Vista? Dunno. You couldn't pay me enough to use it.

Yes, I know, I'm going to be modded troll or flamebait or accused of being an MS apologist or fanboy by some raw-nerved *nix zealot. How dare I say such things? Gasp! Shame on me.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Blahbooboo3]

Well put. You're about to get slashdot slammed now of course :)

Re:I hate to say this...

[Dunbal]

Few things I need "just work" in Linux.

      Oh dear, how hard is it to type "sudo apt-get install xxxxxx" ?

      I've gone back to ubuntu recently and since Feisty, I'm pleasantly surprised.

Re:I hate to say this...

[rustalot42684]

That's odd. My experience was actually quite the opposite: When doing an reinstall of OEM Vista, I had to spend 2 hours poring through howtos, manuals, etc, getting drivers and trying to get everything to work, but installing off the Kubuntu 7.10 alpha 5 worked flawlessly. I'm not going to flame you, because if that was your experience, that was your experience. But it's quite different than what happened to me.

Note: this was an OEM disc, supplied by Dell itself, so I would have to wonder why it wouldn't work..

Re:I hate to say this...

[fooDfighter]

What's really sad is that thinking back I've probably spent more time getting Windows to work than linux. The problem for linux is that few people actually install Windows on their machines, it comes pre-installed with all the correct drivers. When you have to install windows on a machine you built yourself though... what a hassle, especially when you're using RAID or SATA drives (with Windows XP at least). Then begins the re-installation of the 100 different apps, games, and patches that you had on your old machine, plus the configuration thereof (which is sometimes hard to transfer since a lot of it is in the ball of string known as the registry).

For someone who enjoys building their own hardware (for quality and reliability), linux is actually less time-consuming. Especially Ubuntu, which has worked out-of-the-box on the last three machines I've installed it on (including one laptop with wireless, typically a problem case).

Re:I hate to say this...

[BronsCon]

I understand that you may have had issues that were caused by linux on incompatible hardware (it's unfortunate, but it happens, just like with Windows).

My question is, did you try Gutsy after its official release about a week ago? If not, do you realize that many of the problems you faced may have been the continuing changes that release of the distro was undergoing up until the official release?

Just to qualify, I've been using Gusty since Herd 1 and yes, it had its moments of horror. I knew, however, to expect them, just as I knew to expect them when I took part in the Vista beta.

Now that both have officially been released, I can tell you that neither are now what they were before. I might offer a suggestion that you try Gutsy again now that it's an official release and many times more stable.

Who knows, maybe Linux just isn't your thing. Or maybe it's just prerelease operating systems that cause problems for you. Only one way to find out.

To further qualify, I'll leave you with this. In the end, you'll use whichever works better for you and that's how it should be. I use both and long to add at least one Mac to my office eventually.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Macthorpe]

how hard is it to type "sudo apt-get install xxxxxx" How hard is it to realise that not every problem on Linux can be solved be installing vetted software?

Re:I hate to say this...

[flicman]

CmdrTaco...

is that you?

Re:I hate to say this...

[mindwanderer]

Except that in the case of windows, it's often a case of simply going to the hardware manufacturer's site and downloading the correct driver. Wish it were that simple with linux. But that's really not the issue for me. It's more the fact that a good chunk of the hardware I'm using on this laptop cannot be made to work 100% in linux due to the simple fact that 3rd party drivers can only do so much.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

I d/led v7.10 three nights ago. It installed opkay for the most part, but network/intarwebz connectivity is out. Nothing seems to fix it. I've d/led it twice since, from different mirrors and tried installing on other systems. One is a no go, another is fine except the connectivity thing, and another thinks Xconf.org is Satan. Another machine works intermittently...either it's 100% all systems go, or it fails to boot.

Mandriva 2008 gets to the "loading the desktop" stage and just hangs on almost all the machines I've tried it on. Nothing beyond that. Again, different mirrors, different systems, same issue on PCs with different specs. (Some have onboard graphics, some nVidia, two have ATI cards.) One machine doesn't even get that far.

Windows XP, for all that's wrong with it (not least being that it's from Microscum), will install and work 100% on 99% of the computers I've installed it upon. Galling? Yeah, it kind of is. I love all-things open source and without *nix servers my work life would not be what it is...but Linix just isn't ready for the desktop of people who don't have all day to tinker.

Re:I hate to say this...

[BronsCon]

Does anyone see the irony here? Parent works with *nix servers, but has problems with network connectivity working under Ubuntu.

Now that I've ripped on our AC friend, I have to half-heartedly agree with the last line of the above post.

My computer illiterate mother runs Fiesty. She's asked me for help with it once since switching. My equally savvy fiancee has been running Dapper on the desktop since it was released and just installed Gutsy on her laptop last night with no help from me.

I've seen Windows work as often as I've seen it break and I've seen Linux break as often as I've seen it work. Quite literally, every time I've seen either OS fail catastrophically, it's either been a shoddy driver or failing hardware. You can hardly blame the operating system in either case.

That said, I would like to mention that I wasn't intent on taking a jab at you, AC; I was merely reveling in the irony that abounds in your situation. Let's share a hearty laugh, then let me ask you what network hardware you could not get working properly. Once that information is out there, Linux devs will be able to start in on the problem.

Whether they will or not is another question; not too dissimmilar from the situation with Windows.

Seems a fair game either way.

Re:I hate to say this...

[nuzak]

> Oh dear, how hard is it to type "sudo apt-get install xxxxxx" ?


sudo apt-get-install support-spdif-and-line-out-at-the-same-time
sudo apt-get-install make-the-fucking-wireless-drivers-work


yeah, didn't work for me either.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Constantine XVI]

A) Not everything can be solved by installing software
B) See my sig. Most "normal people" run at leopard speed (pun unintended) at first sight of a command line

Re:I hate to say this...

[Kiralan]

More detail on 'a pain to install.... compared to XP' would be nice. My (long-time) experience, with both Windows and Linux platforms, is that hardware with hard-to-find drivers for either or both is out there. Get hardware that the OS has pre-loaded drivers for, and life is good, and you get a install and go experience. Get hardware that is not supported 'out-of-the-box' by that OS, especially networking (apparently the issue for this user), and it can be a 'pain to install'. That said, I feel Vista is more about Microsoft having a shiny new product with 'eye-candy' and about pleasing the Media powers-that-be (DRM), than it is about really giving the USER anything new that (XP 2007) couldn't do.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Optic7]

You're in the minority here. Every machine that I've ever installed Ubuntu on was up and ready to go within a few minutes, no tweaks, configurations, or command line anything required. Contrast to Windows XP, where every time I install it, it takes at least a couple of hours of installing, searching/downloading/installing drivers, installing service packs, rebooting, installing security updates, rebooting, installing other updates, rebooting, etc, etc.

From what I've read, generally most people have this same experience with both.

Maybe the machines where you've tried to install Linux have unusual hardware? If not, maybe you've just been unlucky. Seriously, I've installed it on at least 4 or 5 completely different machines, with different motherboards, video cards, etc, and it's never given me any problems.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

God I wish people like you were around for every install of Linux I've tried on my machine. Ubuntu came close to getting things working out of the box, but *no* distro of Linux has ever worked immediately for me. Every install of Windows has worked. I *DREAM* of installing Linux and freeing myself of the shackles of Microsoft subservience, but every time I try Linux doesn't work for me and if I hear RTFM n00b one more time, I'm gonna start shooting every bastard with a beard that I see.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Nutty_Irishman]

If you want to argue that windows has better application support, that's fine, I will actually agree with you that there are certain applications that windows does better. But the idea that Linux is so difficult to install and setup compared to windows is far fetched. 7.10 took me one install and one restart (restricted drivers), and everything (all the apps, hardware), worked fine (all defaults, hands off install) (I will note, however, that this is the first Linux install I've done that has worked right out of the box)). Total time, 30 minutes. I then proceeded to install Windows XP inside vmware, 4 restarts, and 2 hours later my windows vm is up and running with the bare bones + 2 apps that I need.

My only salvation in the windows install was that I could alt-tab out of the install and do work while windows downloaded it's ridiculous number of security updates that it needed to run (with the exception of a small amount of registry tweaking).

Re:I hate to say this...

[R3d M3rcury]

I'm a hardcore geek from way back. Waaaay back. But these days I simply don't have time to spend all day and night just getting an OS to work. I have a wife and kids [...] So, let me get this straight. You're a hardcore geek and you deliberately got married and had kids knowing full well this would interfere with your hardcore geekery?

Bah. Turn in your geek card. :-)

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever set up XP from the plain CDs? Before all the SP? And then had to download SP1, then SP2, and all those stupid updates.

Getting onto the LAN? Are you kidding me? It's an automagic process these days.

Go home trolls, please. Nobody wants you here.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

of course it didnt, you fucked up the syntax

Re:I hate to say this...

[Kythe]

...But I'll take XP on the desktop over Ubuntu (or Linux) any day. Ubuntu 7.10 is a pain to install, setup and use compared to XP. Few things I need "just work" in Linux.

Heh...I've installed both recently, and nothing stands out as being easier or more difficult on either.

And considering that i think XP is the best OS Microsoft has yet produced, that's saying something.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu's version of "just works" is a *LOT* better than the Windows "just works".

Ask yourself how many times you've repartitioned your hard disk using the Windows installer. Most likely the answer is NEVER. So why are you complaining about these advanced features in the Linux installer. If they were wanting to be like Windows, you wouldn't have those features and instead you'd have to purchase a $50 disk partitioning piece of software.

When you first install Windows you have to disable all the annoying and useless features like desktop cleanup wizard, system restore, search indexing, RPC ports (that SHOULD be closed by default), password storage and network encryption options (disable LM hashes for example), etc. You have to worry about firewall configuration, you have to go to 15+ websites to download and manually install all the software you want to use, you have to manually update drivers to the latest versions (because Windows often doesn't have the correct drivers), etc. Audio/video codecs are MUCH harder to install than in Ubuntu. Compression software, image editing software, etc have to be installed/purchased separately. The list of time wasting activities you have to do is endless.

I know your type of Windows vs Linux viewpoint very well. It is the one which compares an existing tweaked installation of Windows to a fresh install of Linux. You're not playing fair at all. You need to compare Windows vs Linux from the viewpoint of a total computer noob who has two identical computers they have to install Windows and Linux on separately. Then ask them to manipulate a photo, download MJPEG videos from their digital camera (which uses a proprietary protocol) and update all the software on their computer to the latest versions. I bet you any money that Ubuntu is FAR easier in this fair comparison to Windows. This test would also work for hackers who have to compare the security of Windows vs Linux and how much work is required to reconfigure each to be optimally secure.

Signed,
A now Gentoo Linux user who has *extensively* used Windows (both client and server environments). I'm not talking from a noob/never-used-it-properly viewpoint either... I was doing kernel level programming on Windows and setting up dozens of servers from scratch.

Re:I hate to say this...

[remitaylor]

But these days I simply don't have time to spend all day and night just getting an OS to work. I have a wife and kids now, not to mention actual work to accomplish.

Interestingly, this is part of the reason why I switched all of our home PCs => Linux last year ... I didn't have the time to deal with spamware and being sure Windows was up-to-date and trying to keep it somewhat speedy. I always reformatting every year or so anyway because Windows always feels like it needs a reformat after 6 months / a year. Windows maintenance can be such a hassle.

Now, my systems require basically no maintenance at all. *Far* less than when we ran Windows at home.

(I think I last rebooted our file/backup server sometime in early 2007?)

Re:I hate to say this...

[JK_the_Slacker]

I'm not here to suggest you're a fanboy, or anything like that.

But... it took me five minutes to install Ubuntu. I'm pretty sure by this point that XP is hard-coded to take at least forty-five. XP's installer boots to an ugly interface with crpytic options. ubuntu boots to a full desktop, with a big "Install Ubuntu" button right there on the desktop. And, while I'm installing, I can do other things... play games, write a letter, or post on Slashdot. I don't have to wait until Ubuntu is installed before I can be productive.

Likewise, on my three-month-old laptop, Ubuntu detected and set up my video card, my wireless, the wired connection, bluetooth, my mouse... pretty much everything except for my sound, which doesn't play nice with kernels older than 2.6.23. I can live without sound for right now, and I can always recompile and install it if I want to. I didn't have to download any drivers for this stuff... it came on the cd, and it auto-installed them for me. No frantic two-day search for drivers that may or may not exist.

In the end, I don't really see how anyone can reasonable argue that XP is easier to install than Ubuntu. But then again, that's just me.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

being sure Windows was up-to-date

I too had trouble enabling Automatic Updates in Windows.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Draek]

Yes, I know, I'm going to be modded troll or flamebait or accused of being an MS apologist or fanboy by some raw-nerved *nix zealot. How dare I say such things? Gasp! Shame on me.

and it'd be completely deserved. What some people don't *get*, is that downmodding isn't a way of saying "I disagree with you, so STFU", it's a way of categorizing the posts by their intent and usefulness, and as such it's very different to state "I tried it and frankly it was too troublesome for me, plus I'm accustomed to XP which still works just fine so I guess Ubuntu just isn't for me" and "I tried it, it was a pain and you couldn't pay me enough to use it, so if you think it's ready to compete with XP you'd better think again, you raw-nerved zealot", even though once you take all the insults and "OMG the sky is falling!" attitude from the latter, both state roughly the same thing: that you tried it, but prefer XP.

or the short version: don't wanna be called a troll? don't behave like one.

Re:I hate to say this...

[The Anarchist Avenge]

What about those of us who have goatees?

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

You should be modded troll because you're LYING. But of course not in slashdot; here you can get on with anything if you play victim.
"Ohhh look at me, I poo on linux without a reason cause I simply hate it, ohhh but you baddy you're gonna mod me idiot just because I'm a ms fanboy, ohhh poor MS and poor me.."
Get a brain dude.
I have recently installed vista and ubuntu 7.10; with dual screen and similar software setup. It took me 1 hour and 30 minutes in ubuntu, and the rest of the day in vista.So.
Shut. the. fuck. up. You big fat liar.

Re:I hate to say this...

[QuietObserver]

I very much agree with you. My clean Gutsy install (on Monday; clean because I needed to get rid of some baggage I'd ended up with using Feisty) took about two hours, without an internet connection, because I couldn't get my dial-up to connect due to ISP issues. After that, a friend brought me to his house with my computer and we connected to his broadband to complete the upgrade and install the software I use most, which took about an hour, so I had the entire system upgraded in around three hours of actual work time, including the time it took me to make my way through the installation menus, though the travel time between my house and my friend's added another hour or so. I'm not sure what happened to the GP, but I can safely say I had no major issues at all (even the lack of internet didn't bother the system much).

Re:I hate to say this...

[Pie-rate]

Ubuntu works near-flawlessly out of the box on the vast majority of systems, and most of the software is trivial to install and takes less than 30 seconds each.
A fresh Windows install requires 4 hours of updates, quite a while searching for drivers (depending on version of Windows and the hardware), several hours getting firefox, (open)office, gaim, codecs, media players that don't suck, photoshop/gimp, and the other million things that Ubuntu has out of the box that Windows doesn't, and then you spend a lot of your time over the next 3 days installing random shit. Then it breaks and you have to do it again, because its so horrendously designed that its unfixable when it breaks.

Re:I hate to say this...

[st0nes]

...I've been using Gusty since Herd 1...

It's GUTSY. And I think you mean Tribe 1, not Herd 1.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Cro Magnon]

My experience has been very mixed. I recently tried both Ubuntu and Fedora on my current box. They both installed near-perfectly. I lost the ability to boot Vista, but since it was showing flakyness BEFORE the install, I'm not sure I can blame Linux.

However, on a previous box, I tried a lot of distros including Ubuntu, Fedora, and Suse, and none of them worked!

Re:I hate to say this...

[BronsCon]

First of all, WTF?

Kubuntu 7.10 - Gutsy Gibbon On the Streets
Thu, 18 Oct 2007

From the front page of the Kubuntu website.

Second, thank you, I did mean Tribe.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Anonymous Coward]

you can't get ubuntu 7.10 to connect to your lan?

that's like some guy claiming xp sucks because he was using it when his dell battery caught fire.

even so, you give the impression everyone has to be a magician to make a lan connection.

that's thinly veiled FUD.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Excelsior]

I know I'll probably be modded flamebait or troll myself, but I can't leave your post alone.

There aren't enough hours in a day/night leftover for ploughing through howtos, or trawling usergroups, for the info necessary just to, say, get 7.10 or Mandriva 2008 to connect to the LAN.

Seriously? Are you telling me you don't spend even an hour a week doing something less meaningful like watching South Park?

Tell me where you find XP to save much time? I use Ubuntu instead of XP because I was tired of spending so much time removing/avoiding spyware, virii', among plenty of other issues.

Here's a typical time-sink scenario for me in XP: Today XP won't boot, but it booted fine yesterday. Without any useful logging, I guess I'll just rebuild, AGAIN!

Here's another wonderful XP time-sink: I've got 50 programs, and each has its own way of updating. If I want to run a secure system, I guess I'll spend an hour per week updating my software.

Have you actually tried Gutsy? Not to be rude, but I am a bit doubtful.

Re:I hate to say this...

[Excelsior]

I too had trouble enabling Automatic Updates in Windows.
There's more to it than that. With Ubuntu, every single piece of software gets updated by the automatic updates. With Windows Automatic Updates, only the OS and some MS software gets updated. Every other piece of software has its own update technique. At best it is automatic when you run the software, and at worst it is entirely manual.

An Ubuntu desktop updates every piece of software once a day, from the kernel to the browser, from the email client to the network infrastructure.

A few years time...

[SuperKendall]

You do realize that in a few years, you'll have to be running Vista to use the tools of our generation? So why put off til tomorrow...

In a few years time, even Photoshop will be on the web.

Most of the rest of us will be running Macs or Linux boxes, unless you're a store that needs cash registers. Or webbing in via a PS3 or 360 (or successors thereof).

Windows computers are the mainframes of the consumer computing space. They'll be around for a long time but it'll not be because people want to use them.

Re:A few years time...

[sqrt(2)]

Not when the average American is still using dial up for internet access, or doesn't even have net access AT ALL. Web apps of that size and complexity require affordable, ubiquitous and always on internet connections. When that's the reality for America, we'll talk, until then your predictions look a little silly when you see the state of things in the real world.

Re:A few years time...

[Bigjeff5]

I guarantee anybody using $500+ piece of software is also going to have a $2000+ computer in order to run it, and anybody dropping that kind of cash for a computer is almost certainly going to have broadband as well, especially since it is almost certainly for work related use. Besides, Vista needs an internet connection to run anyway with their anal protection schemes, so if they've dropped the cash for Vista or a Vista ready computer, they either have or are planning to get broadband. The world is heading to faster internet, not slower, so "In the future" all this stuff is very viable. And Windoze won't be necessary. BTW, I personally switch from Vista to Ubuntu, cause Vista sucks compared to XP and I didn't have a legal copy of XP, so Linux it is! (Go on and infer that Ubuntu is better than Vista, cause that's what I'm implying) I'd still prefer XP at this time, however.

Re:A few years time...

[Anonymous Coward]

In a few years time, even Photoshop will be on the web.

No, in a few years time a very small version of Photoshop with a very small subset of the current functionality will be available on the web. I could possibly see Photoshop being available on the web in its entirety in ten years, but there's not the slightest chance that a full version of Photoshop, that's comparable to the client side version, will be available on the web within merely a few years.

Networking speeds in much of North America would have to improve dramatically, and web application development tools, and web browsers in general, would need to see major improvements before we started to see anything that resembles the current Photoshop being delivered over the web.

I'll just say one thing

[pwizard2]

When I'm using Windows, (any version) I really miss having a real terminal (cmd.exe just doesn't do it for me) and apt-get (there is nothing like having all of the software I need available at any time from one central place)

Re:I'll just say one thing

[Anonymous Coward]

When I'm using Windows, (any version) I really miss having a real terminal (cmd.exe just doesn't do it for me) and apt-get (there is nothing like having all of the software I need available at any time from one central place) Isn't that two things?

Re:I'll just say one thing

[TeamSPAM]

I suggest that you look into cygwin. When I had to use an NT box as my main development box, I got cygwin and was happy to have bash and most of the standard bin utils. If I had to use a window box again, this would be one of the first things I install.

Re:I'll just say one thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Try PowerShell, much better than cmd.exe http://microsoft.com/powershell

How not to look like a Slashdot idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

Never try to claim that your post is first post, because chances are far too high that it won't be. This is especially true if you're posting nine minutes after the real first post.

Re:How not to look like a Slashdot idiot

[kcbanner]

Yeap...no posts were there when I hit reply originally, but of course I got the "lol you hit submit before 30 secs you naughty" message :P

I don't know whats worse...getting first post and not saying first post...or saying first post and not getting first post...perhaps the latter?

Re:How not to look like a Slashdot idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

As the saying goes, it is better to remain silent and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I've had a few first posts in my past (including some +5 insightfuls), but I only proclaim them in the replies.

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps

[ThePhilips]

My computer arrived with Ubuntu installed on it.

LoL. You should put lies in the end of message. That's tried and it works: few people read till end of message.

Reality of M$ iron grip on OEMs is that you have to ask many times before they will sell a computer without Windows preinstalled. You have real chances that will deny your request - or even send you to competitor - but will not sell w/o Windows.

M$ holds many OEMs accountant not to number of Windows licenses sold - but to number of computers sold and they pay M$ for every computer sold. Then, if computer was sold w/o Windows, OEM has to file a special request and M$ would return the money.

Let me guess

[marcello_dl]

> Then how come I'm so much more at home with Ubuntu than Vista?
Because a linux desktop has the traditional GUI and sometimes even the windows convert in mind while Microsoft needs to redefine the desktop experience in a different way to maintain an edge. They practically would like people to be hostages of the Microsoft way so that linux will look different to them and discourage the switch. Of course in this first period it's the exact opposite, but they have their dominant position to exploit. This opinion is based on the futility of the changes in ie7 UI, but i guess the philosophy is the same for vista.

PS: as a former macOS user I felt towards XP the same WTF attitude people experience in vista today, while Linux is more of a Wow/Damn dichotomy, with a refreshing sense of freedom.

There's an ad?

[Gr8Apes]

Darn Firefox plugins, I missed a classic bit of irony

Re:There's an ad?

[Anonymous Coward]

I installed an ad blocking plug in to get rid of that irony. It was too much to be reading a pro-Linux article while a Microsoft anti Linux FUD ad played. I am pretty sure that Microsoft directly sponsors 95% of Linux sites that use ads, thanks to crappily targeted ads detecting the word "Linux".

Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[XahXhaX]

...at least Vista _boots_ after installation. I have had nothing but trouble from attempting to run Ubuntu--from difficulty getting the Nvidia drivers for my 6800 working to GRUB mysteriously being screwed up between sessions, to not my system not even booting if I do something as radical as try to boot my system with an external hard drive plugged in. Add all the problems with it not mounting things like said external drive or the secondary internal drive as anything but read-only, and a ton of other issues, and so far I've probably spent more time trying to get the damn thing working than actually using it. When I did the recent upgrade to 7.10, it didn't even boot after installation. It wiped my XP entry out of menu.lst and botched the rest of the file. No backup file or anything of the sort. If Microsoft released an OS that didn't even boot directly after installation they would never hear the end of it. I used Vista for several months and had plenty of troubles with it, like Explorer forgetting over half the directory settings it was supposed to retain or never getting it to detect my XP desktop over my home network (Ubuntu on the other hand just plain doesn't work with files over a network, try playing music or videos shared from another computer, so while it technically works who cares?) But at least Vista generally _worked_, Ubuntu must be synonymous with 'broken'.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[uglyduckling]

Please can you post links to where you have raised these issues in the Ubuntu support forums? If you were having such severe problems I am sure you can get help.

It's worth remembering that Ubuntu ships on a Live CD so if you managed to install it then as a matter of fact it certainly can boot on your hardware, so it should just be some relatively simple troubleshooting to get things working for you.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[dbIII]

The answer is to get somebody else to set it up for you - linux has a really steep learning curve in that just about the hardest thing to do (the install with some hardware) is the thing you do first. Bootloaders are a pain with dual boot especially with an old BIOS. When linux still booted easily from one floppy it was simplest to tell people - "floppy in for linux, out for windows". Now with a lot of mucking about you can run a lot of distros linux entirely from an external drive and tell people "external drive in for linux, out for windows".

Personally I like knoppix for occasional linux users or like to keep MS and linux on different disks - and I backup the MBR when I change anything major with the bootloader (as I said - steep learning curve and a lot of mucking about).

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

*Ubuntu on the other hand just plain doesn't work with files over a network, try playing music or videos shared from another computer, so while it technically works who cares?*

just works???
are you for serious?
I've had gentoo, ubuntu (and kubuntu for that matter) and now mandriva 2008 all work flawlessly connecting to my server first go after install samba .. ohh yes and XBMC too works flawlessly too... did I mention my server runs linux?

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[XahXhaX]

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I'm on my home network (typically just my laptop and desktop connected via an inverted ethernet cable), and while I can browse the files on my XP desktop just fine I can't simply play any mp3s or videos off them. The handful of players I tried through the packager manager all fail to locate them unless I manually copied them over or something along those lines. That's just not the behavior to which I'm accustomed on Windows, where I can connect the two and freely access files on either machine.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[XahXhaX]

I've tried Knoppix, as well as many Linux distros in the past (some of them purchased). Knoppix was as recent as February, and the big turnoff was that I mostly use an Alienware 7700 laptop and with that distro a number of devices just weren't working.

I was pretty happy with Ubuntu at least working with my laptop's hardware (by contrast a friend of mine tried it with his 64bit modern desktop and reported that Ubuntu just froze on boot). But I'm just tired of everybody lauding these latest distros--like Ubuntu--as the people's OS. I've been using computers since middle school, have programming experience, and am the go-to guy for all Windows problems whenever somebody's system starts screwing up. If I can't even find a comfortable working experience in Linux, then how the hell would I ever recommend it to someone like my dad who has to call me whenever a cable comes loose from the back of his HP desktop?

So yeah, based on my own experience Ubuntu is pretty broken and anybody claiming that it's an alternative for Windows--particularly for the average person--is spouting some prime BS. I managed to sort out the upgrade booting problems after finding the grub directory was now hidden under /boot, and edit menu.lst to fix the drive entries (re-adding XP and updating the Ubuntu entries with the correct information). Keep in mind that the only reason I had to do this was because it got screwed up during an _update_. Somehow I don't consider tasks like that user-friendly, or when the first thing I had to do with it was learn about manipulating xorg.conf just to get my five button trackball working when it functions fine under Windows by default.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[XahXhaX]

It's pretty demeaning to have to run to a forum of peers with every little problem you encounter. In all my years of using Windows (95,98,2K,XP,Vista) I never had to run to somebody else over a problem. Not to mention DOS before that, and you get the idea. If the master plan for Linux--whatever the flavor--is 'well if there's a problem people will just go ask', then you've got serious problems that I doubt I need to begin detailing here. Not that I don't appreciate the fact that there are people who _would_ freely take the time and effort to assist. But still, I don't see why it should come to this. People everywhere are irresponsibly claiming that this OS is tailored for average users and works at least as well--if not better than--Windows. I call BS on every account. And yeah, I was booting off the Live cd so I could try to search for a solution online (and like usual, failed so I had to figure it out myself). Of course this doesn't begin to change the fact that I set aside maybe an hour that morning to upgrade the OS to 7.10, then planned to return to XP so I could do work. The fact that it killed grub made accessing Windows impossible until I figured out the solution. That was more than a little irksome, and if I had gone to a forum it probably would have been to curse and bitch (like this but with more cursing) rather than appeal for any actual assistance.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[dbIII]

I've been using computers since middle school, have programming experience, and am the go-to guy for all Windows problems

It is very very different so unfortunately very little of that knowlege applies.

anybody claiming that it's an alternative for Windows

It isn't really - it's a unix clone on cheap hardware with all the differences that come with it. What is a big advantage to me is a disadvantage to those that grew up with an effective monoculture and an expectation of a GUI for everything - it just won't behave the same way right down to not calling something a "C:" drive. /boot /usr /etc are bound to confuse and /opt even makes those that have been using it for a while wonder what is going on. Hence it's never going to be "the people's OS" for people that already know how to use a very different one.

As for ordinary use give a lot of people any OS with a graphical desktop and icons for the applications they use (or a web interface to the various linux apllicances out there) and they'll get things done. When you muck about with system settings that's when you have to learn a bit more and your old skills of knowing which maze of menu settings to follow doesn't apply to config files and vice versa.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[uglyduckling]

Sorry but you're installing an OS that has been in the wild for a little over a week. You can't expect to "set aside an hour" and be sure that it will just work. For may people it would - and has - but for some it won't. If you've managed to use sucecssive Windows versions without ever getting help online then you've done very well.

For my part I've had far more trouble upgrading major versions of Windows. I wouldn't even consider upgrading a Windows box without backing up all my data. I've taken the chance with each successive Ubuntu release since Dapper and never had a problem, so I was pretty confident last week. You say "people everywhere are irresponsibly claiming that this OS is tailored for average users and works at least as well--if not better than--Windows. I call BS on every account" in the context of a badly failed major OS upgrade. I feel your pain - we've all been there - but are you really implying that if this was 2000 to XP or XP to Vista you could have handed the DVD to your next door neighbour and they could have done the upgrade without a hitch? For sure?

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[pato101]

hmmmm, In my case, I connect my two ubuntu computers with an inverted ethernet cable and:
1. They automagically negotiate an IP address thanks to avahi (zeroconf).
2. I can access the other machine like the_other_machine_name.local
3. Thus, thanks the very first thing I check after an installation is the presence of ssh-server:
4. I can access the other machine filesystem with Nautilus (just placing ssh://the_other_machine_name.local/. at the location bar)
5. I can also mount the other machine filesystem, with sshfs so I can play whatever you want.
6. Displaying PDF files, with evince, does not need the filesystem mount. Runs pretty well out of the box. However:
7. Seems that Totem is not totally aware of the ssh:// gnome-vfs protocol. It is like a bug, because seems to locate the file but fails to know wich kind of file it is. When solved, it will allow directly playing movies or sound files without mounting the filesystem. If you think this is important, you may fill a bug report...
8. Further, I can start remote applications painless. This is typically useful to for instance check the email you have physically stored at the other computer without having to place both computers one side to the another. Hey, you can even start a video player remotely...

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft released at least two operating systems that didn't boot after installation - xp and vista.

I've had nothing but trouble from vista - its more of a joke than an operating system. Once I could finally hack it so bit booted, even simple things like copying files caused immense problems. And don't get me started on installing software - I am fed up with looking up 'generic failure' error message codes.

Ubuntu on the other hand - nothing but a pleasure the whole way through.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[XahXhaX]

Sounds like my experience, except for running applications since my desktop is XP.

But yeah, I was happy that Ubuntu could network with my XP desktop and access the files (at least through Nautilus). I store all my music/movies/etc on there so it's pretty important to me. It's annoying that XP doesn't appear to do the same, but that's Microsoft for you. Perhaps there's a third party app to enable that functionality the way Ext2 Volume Manager lets you mount the Linux filesystem in Windows. I haven't checked because I've barely elected to use Ubuntu for anything.

I'm glad to know it's not just me who can't access files using the likes of Totem if they're stored on another computer, so thanks for confirming this! It's hard to believe I'm the first person to attempt this, so who knows. I haven't tried it in the current version so for all I know that package was already updated. After my problems with installation and setup, I've nearly just formatted that drive and given up so I'll have to see if my patience holds.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[XahXhaX]

The way Linux divides the system among directories should be increasingly familiar today than several years ago for the fact that Microsoft has adopted more of this behavior for Windows with each new release. Now days you have \Documents and Settings, \My Documents, and of course \Program Files and \Windows. My point is just that I'm not unfamiliar with things like the command line, modifying files by hand, concerning myself with some of the finer points of how the system operates, etc. So I figure that if trying to get a popular Linux distro up and running is testing my patience when I could just say "f- it" and stick solely with Windows, then I don't even want to think what the 'average' computer user will make of it.

I agree that it's usable on some face value just for the fact that you can launch an email client through an icon, and Linux has some great stuff going for it in that department like the package manager where you can catalog browse new software. Windows doesn't have anything like that, and if they did the selection would probably be highly suspect and packed with commercial products from related parties to where you wouldn't want to use it anyway. Of course, your hardware has to work first and that's been the biggest problem for me with Linux. It feels like a crapshoot sometimes whether a device will work, or these weird problems like Ubuntu mounting drives as read-only by default then having to go through a bunch of steps just to correct it. All of it seems to act as a barrier to Linux adoption to where I haven't managed to stick with one past a couple weeks, after all these years of trying Red Hat, Mandrake, etc or novelty distros like "Linux for Windows".

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[XahXhaX]

Didn't boot howso? I've yet to hear of such problems post installation even after all these years, and they actually improved the installation with Vista so I have a hard time believing that. Hell, installing a fresh XP is pretty much a ritual of mine every few several months. Don't get me wrong, I used Vista for several months and it's absolutely broken. I'm also of the mindset that MS knows damn well they released a broken product just to get it out on some sort of deadline. Although we pretty much knew that was going to happen from the betas, right? And it seems we're supposed to wait out all the bugs until they can get a service pack out--I just said 'f- it' one day and formatted+reinstalled XP. But if your experience with Ubuntu has been much better than this, then you must have gotten a magically superior distro over mine or your system and devices just agrees with it better. Vista sure doesn't fail to boot just because I have an external harddrive plugged in at the time.

Re:Bah, I consider Ubuntu more broken than Vista

[Arafel65]

Ubuntu has produces great products up to version 7.04 (Feisty Fawn) but Gutsy Gibbon (7.10) came out too early, more like Goatse Gibbon. The thing is too buggy, my laptop which ran fine on 7.04 (except for my AMD Turion64 cpus that always ran at full speed all the time with no way of managing it) crashes every 1 to 3 hours on 7.10. I've even started entertaining blasphemous thoughts of installing vista to avoid hardware issues.

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello there, fellow Slashdotter. There seems to be a malfunction with your keyboard. You are transmitting a '$' instead of 'S' over-the-wire. Please correct ASAP.

Thanks, and enjoy every sandwich!

Fill in the blanks and save for future use

[Seismologist]

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you _____ fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a _____ (a _____ w/_____ gigs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my ancient _____ running _____, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this _____, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that. In addition, during this file transfer, _____ will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even _____ is straining to keep up as I type this. I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various _____'s, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a _____ that has run faster than its _____ counterpart, despite the _____'s same chip architecture. My _____ with _____ megs of ram runs faster than this _____ mhz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that _____ is a superior operating system. _____ lovers, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use _____ over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Re:Fill in the blanks and save for future use

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm. Prepend a "Dear Penthouse editors: I never thought this would happen to me, but" and that's /really/ general-purpose.

Re:Fill in the blanks and save for future use

[user-hostile]

You think ______ is messed up? How about __ buntu? I use __ buntu myself, but I can't understand how __ buntu has gotten so popular. __ buntu is SO much better. I can't believe on my laptop, __ buntu installs flawlessly, recognizes all my hardware, even my WiFi card (and even supports WPA out of the "box")! But __ buntu? It's clueless about my networking hardware. How can Canonical publish a dumbed-down piece of crap like __ buntu along with great pieces of work like __ buntu, __ buntu and yes, even __ buntu? Oh, and then there's the _____ desktop environment. The ______ __ buntu desktop environment is too much like ________ OS. If you want an OS like _______, get a _______ or __ buntu!! On the other hand, how many desktop environments does ________ have??

Re:Fill in the blanks and save for future use

[thatskinnyguy]

Classic Mac Troll! You sir, made my day! You get a gold star!

Re:Fill in the blanks and save for future use

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it "wang"? The missing word is "wang"right?

I am sure it's "wang".

Re:Fill in the blanks and save for future use

[Anonymous Coward]

He used the word 'folder' not 'directory'... He must be a Windows user... ;)

Aside

[IthnkImParanoid]

In my experience there's really no reason to run Norton antivirus, unless you enjoy giving your operating system the equivalent of 300 pound cell mate named Bubba. Between Avast!, AVG, Clamwin, Panda, and any other free antivirus software out there, there's got to be something to replace Norton.

Re:Aside

[Anonymous Coward]

clamwin sucks. Too fucking slow. How slow? I don't know. Sometime after the 36th hour of scanning my 30gig hard drive I decided a virus would be the lesser evil and gave up. And the false positives were nice too. Ascii text? Gotta be kidding me.

Re:Aside

[mstahl]

Agreed. I used to have a job cleaning viruses and spyware and such off of students' laptops at a university campus, which gave me a lot of insight into what not to buy and which AV programs not to trust. There were soooooooooooo many students, faculty, and staff who had entrusted their box entirely to Norton, and it was just an epic fail every single time—even when it was fully up-to-date. The whole of the entire computer security industry would be in Defcon 4 about some virus that'd been out for a week and Norton would still be on its smoke break. Weak.

Between Avast!, AVG, Clamwin, Panda, and any other free antivirus software out there, there's got to be something to replace Norton.

"Avast!"? Sounds awesome, if a touch nautical.... What struck me the most when I was working at Resnet was how many free programs there were that were extremely effective (especially if used together), almost always catching files that Norton missed entirely. Side note: it's really scary that a lot of these antivirus programs were web-based, and somehow Windows is perfectly okay having web applications that are capable of deleting files, analyzing the content of local files, accessing the registry.... Really scary. Way to go on that security model thing, Microsoft!

Re:Aside

[budgenator]

If your running as a LUA you only have to scan your shared folders and your user and all-users folders, a virus can't get into anything else.

Re:Aside

[MrCrassic]

Actually, on a home computer there is no reason whatsoever to use Norton AntiVirus, but the tool is indispensible for corporate environments. They could switch to an open-source or free (as in beer) software, but deployment, installation, maintenance and UPDATING (this is critical) of the Norton client is significantly easier and it is not the resource hog of its home compliment.

Re:Aside

[lucas teh geek]

Between Avast!, AVG, Clamwin, Panda, and any other free antivirus software out there, there's got to be something to replace Norton.

heck, you could probably run all of those at the same time and still have a system that's more responsive than one with norton on it. :P

Re:Aside

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Side note: it's really scary that a lot of these antivirus programs were web-based, and somehow Windows is perfectly okay having web applications that are capable of deleting files, analyzing the content of local files, accessing the registry.... Really scary. Way to go on that security model thing, Microsoft!

Uhh... That's exactly what ActiveX was created to do (perhaps unfortunately)...

Re:Aside

[mstahl]

Way to go on that security model thing, Microsoft! Uhh... That's exactly what ActiveX was created to do (perhaps unfortunately)...

That's kinda what I meant.... It's one big giant security breach and it's there by design. That's pretty messed up; not only are the bugs features, but the gaping holes in the castle walls are, too.

Re:Aside

[ozmanjusri]

I have 1.2TB over four hard drives, and Clamwin doesn't take anywhere near that long. I run it overnight, and it's finished when I start in the morning.

Re:Aside

[Khuffie]

Any recommendation on a good, free, lightweight AV? I currently use AVG, but it pisses me off that whenever it decides to update, it likes to popup windows right in the middle of the screen that basically go "HAI! I DECIDED TO INTERRUPT WHATEVER YOU'RE WORKING ON SO I TELL YOU I'M UPDATING BECAUSE I'M SO COOL LIKE THAT AND YOU SUCK!"

Re:Aside

[Anonymous Coward]

And plugins for any browser on any OS do the same exact thing. This is not unique to ActiveX, ActiveX is nothing more than a standard interface for plugin design. Anytime you install a browser plugin you are granting it the same rights you do to any program you install, except that the browser plugin has the added bonus of having to parse maliciously malformed data.

Blame the people who thought that active content in a web document was a good thing.

Re:Aside

[IthnkImParanoid]

That's a problem with Avast! as well, although the box animates out of and back into the quick launch area, and a voice tells you "Virus database has been updated." There's nothing like picking your way through Ravenhold with headphones on when Avast! updates. Surely there's a way to disabled that, but I'm lazy :)

Re:Aside

[Khuffie]

I'm fairly positive you can disable sounds in Avast fairly easily; I just stopped using it because I felt it used more resources than AVG.

Re:Aside

[Billly Gates]

Avg slowed my laptop down by quite a margin but its a price I have to pay.

Re:Aside

[gr8dude]

And in my experience, there is no need to have an antivirus at all. Even though I have ClamWin and a script that updates its definitions every day automatically - I never actually scan anything.

Life with Windows without an antivirus is possible.

Re:Aside

[trifish]

Between Avast!, AVG, Clamwin, Panda, and any other free antivirus software out there, there's got to be something to replace Norton.

Here in Europe ESET's NOD32 is gaining popularity particularly among techies and power users. Two highlights:

1) Advanced heuristics. A test showed that an older version of NOD32 detected 90% of THEN UNKNOWN(!) viruses, based on behavioral and other characteristics. Ref: http://www.eset.com/download/whitepapers/AV-Comparatives-2006-Summary.pdf

2) Incredibly low footprint as far as memory consumption and CPU load are concerned (and that includes real time scanning).

It's commercial but it's really worth it.

Re:Aside

[Ginger Unicorn]

launch avg control center, select "update manager" from the list of components, click properties, untick "display information about update process".

it used to annoy me as well till i found that option.

Re:Aside

[Ginger Unicorn]

i find a good combo is AVG, Comodo, Spywareblaster and Spybot. It doesn't seem to have much impact on performance.

Also, if you're installing for PEBKAC users, replacing IE with firefox + adblock plus + filterset.g updater extensions removes a lot of problems. And installing thunderbird and making it the default mail app to avoid them stumbling across outlook express.

the biggest PEBKAC hole left then is teenage girls and MSN Messenger. I haven't found a way round that one yet. Even installing Pidgin won't stop them deliberately running the pointless cack they seem obsessed with sending to each other.

being behind a router is a good away to ameliorate accidentally connecting without a firewall running.

Re:Aside

[Khuffie]

...I...I think I love you...

I had looked for it before; I never noticed the scrollbar in the components list. In fact, it took me a while to notice it just now.

Re:Aside

[rbochan]

...There were soooooooooooo many students, faculty, and staff who had entrusted their box entirely to Norton, and it was just an epic fail every single time--even when it was fully up-to-date...

No, there were "soooooooooooo many students, faculty, and staff" who purchased their machines from [insert major manufacturer here], which came with the garbage, and since it already had something with it, they were either ignorant of the fact that there were much better products available to them for free, or they just plain didn't give a shit.

Re:Aside

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.av-comparatives.org/ http://www.av-comparatives.org/seiten/ergebnisse_2007_05.php http://www.av-comparatives.org/seiten/ergebnisse_2007_08.php

Re:Aside

[krytor]

I feel secure knowing that the DoD uses Symantec Antivirus and not Norton.... Oh wait! Crap.

Re:Aside

[quux4]

Way to go on that security model thing, Microsoft!

That security model thing doesn't work any better when you bypass it by being Administrator on Windows, than when you bypass it by being root on Linux.

Re:Aside

[GogglesPisano]

Norton sucks.

This month I spent the better part of three days on the phone with a relative whose home computer (running XP, of course) got infected with a nasty batch of spyware. Unfortunately, prior to calling me, she had run out to Staples, dropped $70 on a copy of Norton 360, and attempted to install it on the infected box, thinking it would clean the system.

The Norton software refused to do *anything* until it called home to register itself. Whatever crap was running on the machine was apparently blocking the connection. Now, whenever she rebooted, the first thing that came up was the stupid Norton registration dialog.

Long story short, after I talked her through reformatting her hard drive and reinstalling XP from scratch, Norton was *not* among the programs that got reinstalled. Hopefully the combination of a firewall, Windows Update, Windows Defender, AVG Antivirus, Firefox, and limited accounts for the teenage kids using the system should avoid future infections (but I doubt it...).

Re:Aside

[__aaxwdb6741]

As a matter of fact, Symantec Corporate Antivirus is quite good - as opposed to Norton.
I do realize the irony of this, as Symantec develops Norton, but it's true.

Linux does a hell of a lot more than Windows does

[Doug52392]

I just bought a new Gateway computer a few months ago, and immediately installed Linux on it (Fedora 7 Linux). I almost always use Linux now. Why? Because I get tired of all those UAC crap. Every single time I turn the computer on to Vista, it reminds me of how I have Premium and why I should give m$ more money to get Ultimate. I have to scan EVERY file I download through a virus-scanner. I always need to download somting extra to do something not included in Vista, and can never find freeware software because of all the proprietary garbage on the Internet for WIndows. I installed Wolfstine: Enemy Territory on Vista, and got so pissed at it. First I needed to run as admin, then a DLL kept failing, had to download a patch. Then I needed to allow the game to get through on the network. Then when I finally get to play, the graphics are so messed up, and it crashes with c0000005 access violation errors (like every other game I try to play in Windows). Thank God there is a Linux version! Just downloaded it, ran the .run file, and I was playing with NO ERRORS. I have a full web server hooked up, to do the things I can do in Linux would have cost me about $3,000 in software to do on Windows.

And yet a different experience here

[Reality Master 201]

I wiped my laptop (a rapidly aging Latitude D800) and installed Gutsy, and the install was flawless and it rebooted fine and even properly recognized the correct X mode settings for my LDC panel and video card, as well as my wireless. It's the most hassle free OS install I've ever had on any machine.

It's not perfect (what the fuck is with NetworkManager and nm-applet - they're crap), but it generally works quite well.

Different bugs for different folks, I guess.

"The greeter application appears to be crashing"

[Anonymous Coward]

"The greeter application appears to be crashing
Attempting to use a different one"

This is what I got when I upgraded from Fawn to Gibbon. A dead system.

And I'm supposed to use Linux why?.

Ignoring the obvious Wallmart greeter jokes, does anyone even know what this means?

Not able to set screen res, but finds it OK?

[Com2Kid]

Not being able to set my monitor resolution correctly (especially for an LCD) is an instant deal breaker. He decides not to bother with XORG.CONF configuration and just what, left it that way?

Every video card made in the last 5 or 6 (or 10...) years is capable of outputting every sane resolution possible. Even Windows (most of the time) lets me override its "For Your Protection" results, tell it to screw off, and just select arbitrary settings.

And his problems about restoring from sleep and hibernation are NOT Vista. I have a brand new Vista box at home that comes out of hibernation in less than 20 seconds, boots in less than 40, and both of those numbers how long until I have a fully usable desktop environment (HD has quieted down, etc).

In fact that is one of two features that has made me change my mind on Vista. Originally I went with the "it sucks!!!" crowd, having only tried out the betas on a few underpowered machines, but after using it on something decently new (I dropped all of $600 on a discounted Dell system, integrated video, 1GB RAM, AMD CPU, not exactly a powerhouse), I am quite happy with it.

And yes, Vista did break a few of my apps, and it has some mind numbingly stupid bugs (as does all software), but when it works, it works really well.

Re:Not able to set screen res, but finds it OK?

[uglyduckling]

And his problems about restoring from sleep and hibernation are NOT Vista. I have a brand new Vista box at home that comes out of hibernation in less than 20 seconds, boots in less than 40, and both of those numbers how long until I have a fully usable desktop environment (HD has quieted down, etc).

Thanks for your accurate study, sample size n=1. Anyone else do any groundbreaking research today?

Re:Not able to set screen res, but finds it OK?

[Anonymous Coward]

you apparently didnt.

Re:Not able to set screen res, but finds it OK?

[Com2Kid]

Work computer, same thing (but it is an almost fully loaded new computer).

My 900mhz UMPC doesn't exactly jump back to responsiveness from hibernate, but I would chalk that up more to the slow HD than anything else. Going into and restoring from hibernate are mostly disk IO intensive activities.

If hibernate is behaving poorly, then there are two likely culprits. Either the disk is under performing (I've once saw a laptop HD that omitted cache altogether, took forever to boot anything!) or there is some driver misbehaving.

The author did a sample size N = 1 comparison too, and concluded that Vista sucks because of one machine he saw it installed on.

I've seen laptops that have been setup (or just built!) so bad by the manufacturer that ANY OS would run slow on them. Sometimse it is just the requirement for some bizarre proprietary drivers without which the machine runs like a dog (both Windows and Linux can suffer from this), other times it is a case where the manufacturer was cheap with one specific portion of the machine (slow CPU, sub-par video card even for a laptop, etc).

Ultimately it sucks that customers of either OS (Linux or Windows) have to deal with all this crap. I've had to jump through hoops on numerous machines when installing Linux or Windows, and it really should not be considered acceptable that an average user might have to go through the same trouble.

Re:Not able to set screen res, but finds it OK?

[uglyduckling]

The author did a sample size N = 1 comparison too, and concluded that Vista sucks because of one machine he saw it installed on.

No, the author said that it didn't work on his machine even though XP worked fine. The GP said that the author's "...problems about restoring from sleep and hibernation are NOT Vista..." based solely on the fact that his own machine restored OK. One is giving an example of frustration upgrading XP->Vista, the other is making a ridiculous catagorical statement based on data n=1.

Re:Not able to set screen res, but finds it OK?

[Com2Kid]

I'm making a statement based on over a decade and a half of experience using Windows platforms.

The #1 cause of Hibernation problems is third party drivers, either the lack, or poor quality, of.

Problems with Ubuntu GUI.

[serviscope_minor]

The main problem with ubuntu is the interface. It doesn't come with ratpoison installed by default. Then, you have to dig around in config files to get it working. And, frankly the bash shell and vim editor are horribly bloated compared to lightweight counterparts, like sh and vi.

It's a GUI problem, so I'll just stick to Vista... oh. Never mind.

Re:Problems with Ubuntu GUI.

[808140]

vi? Don't you mean ed? Ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Not to mention that vi really doesn't work very well, I'm not sure why everyone is so hot on it ... whenever I've tried to run it, my line printer prints out all sorts of control characters and related garbage. Not so with ed. Ed just works.

?

Re:Problems with Ubuntu GUI.

[NemoinSpace]

I use emacs you insensitive clod!

Re:Problems with Ubuntu GUI.

[Jearil]

Yeah, because emacs is the model of perfection when we're talking light-weight and bloat free :)

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps

[Anonymous Coward]

You should put lies in the end of message

Are you being sarcastic? See: http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

I agree it's not common, and it's a trick finding the site from the dell.com main page, but there is at least one major supplier who ships Linux boxes. (Whether any of you money for the Dell Ubuntu box actually finds its way into Microsoft's coffers is another question.)

Why Vista Security is like the TSA.

[mmclure]

At work, I got a shiny new machine. Since we need to certify some of our products with Windows Vista, we designated it the Vista certification machine. So far, so good.

We use the MKS Toolkit software suite to simplify several tasks while developing on Windows. Everything seemed to work fine, until I had to use patch to apply a diff to some sources. As soon as I typed

        patch -p0 foo.diff

at the command prompt I got a pop-up window from Vista asking permission to run the executable. If I answered "yes, go ahead" instead of running the program in the same command prompt window it popped it up in another command prompt which promptly disappeared. And, apparently, did absolutely nothing to the files that were supposed to be patched. Experimentation shows that even

        patch --help

pops up the dialog and fails, so it isn't a permissions problem on the files to patch. So I say to myself, "Myself, we're a revision or two back on MKS Toolkit, and this is not the Vista-certified version - let's try another patch.exe." So I go get the GnuWin32 version of patch.exe. I put it first on the PATH, and try again. Another pop-up. I answer yes, and not only does patch run in a window that disappears, but it GPFs as well.

At this point, I'm pissed. But suddenly the penny drops. I rename the MKS toolkit patch.exe to ptch.exe and type

      ptch --help

which produces a nice help message. Trying on the original diff causes the required files to be patched correctly.

Apparently the Windows Vista User Access Control considers patch.exe to be a forbidden executable name. I investigated further and the only way to disable this functionality appears to be to completely turn off UAC, which I did immediately.

But there you have it - Windows Vista's vaunted security is about as logical and effective as banning water bottles in carry-on luggage.

Re:Why Vista Security is like the TSA.

[Anonymous Coward]

File name is one of the "heuristics" (hah) that UAC uses to detect when a software installation program is attempting to be executed. The idea is that setup would surely bomb if ran in the limited rights user account, so UAC offers to run it administratively.

Typically, this works mildly okay, but in your case, having patch.exe run in a separate account from the parent process causes problems (inter-process communication being limited is probably it). The correct solution would be to disable UAC's heuristics, which can be done through the Group Policy console.

But, UAC is annoying as shit, and disabling it will help your sanity in the long run. I honestly prefer using NT5 limited user acconuts, and use "Run As" when necessary. :)

Re:Why Vista Security is like the TSA.

[SirMeliot]

That's a compatibility fudge to run old install programs that don't have a manifest saying whether they need admin privs or not.

Try it with with setup.exe, update.exe or anything that sounds like it might be an installer. Vista assumes it's an installer and tries to run it as admin.

For extra fun rename a text file to be setup.exe. Try to run it. Vista will give you a UAC prompt, then discover it's not a real executable and finally give you a cute little message box saying 'The application didn't install correctly'

Re:Why Vista Security is like the TSA.

[fwarren]

But there you have it - Windows Vista's vaunted security is about as logical and effective as banning water bottles in carry-on luggage.

Hey back off man.

You can't imagine how many times terrorists have been stopped from boarding planes because they did not want to be thirsty.

I am sure Vista's Security relies on there being that type of tangent effect.

Apples and Oranges

[LingNoi]

By just reading the title I can tell you right now that there is no way you could compare Vista to Gutsy Gibbon. Why?

Microsoft Windows Vista is an operating system with a Desktop environment and a few extremely basic applications such as a drawing application, web browser and calculator program. Maybe a few other basic programs that I am missing.

Canonical Ubuntu - Gutsy Gibbon is an operating system with the option of two Desktop environments and over 10,000 applications. I think there are around 45,000 deb files but all of those aren't programs. These applications include a web browser, graphics 3D and sound manipulation programs, games, photo and music management, office suite (out of the box), the list could go on.

With that in mind any comparison would be useless..

Measure by security? You can't because Ubuntu has vastly more applications that could have potential holes. I saw a chart that showed Vista with less security problems but look at the information above, it's obvious that Ubuntu has (possibly) more security holes its software is 100's times bigger then Microsoft's offering.

There are other things that you could possibly compare with but you have to keep in mind the above information and you'll realise that Windows and Ubuntu are quite different even if they are both operating systems. They are both produced, run and distributed in different ways. This means there is a lot of mis-understanding about Linux and distributions in general.

In any case I hope people who dislike previous versions of Ubuntu try it out again, especially if you downloaded breezy badger or older. If you like a windows look then download a version of Kbuntu. I started using Ubuntu when Breezy came out and not much worked on my laptop, but I am currently running an older version of Ubuntu (Feisty) and my laptop works out of the box. I can't wait to try out Gutsy.

If you love using software give it ago. ^_^

Re:Apples and Oranges

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy shit, this is quite possibly the single most retarded comment I've ever read on Slashdot, and considering the bias of the userbase here, that's saying something.

Microsoft Windows Vista is an operating system with a Desktop environment and a few extremely basic applications such as a drawing application, web browser and calculator program. Maybe a few other basic programs that I am missing. Oh, and a few hundred thousand commercial, freeware, and open source programs, but let's forget about those and focus only on the programs that come with the operating system, because added bloat is totally awesome!

Canonical Ubuntu - Gutsy Gibbon is an operating system with the option of two Desktop environments and over 10,000 applications. I think there are around 45,000 deb files but all of those aren't programs. These applications include a web browser, graphics 3D and sound manipulation programs, games, photo and music management, office suite (out of the box), the list could go on. And how many of those 45,000 debs are actual software and not libraries and dependencies for other programs, including those two aforementioned desktop environments which are a good hundred packages on their own? And how many of those programs are available for Windows as well? Hell, even KDE is working on a Windows port.

Fact is, there is far more industry-standard software available for Windows, including Microsoft Office (which OpenOffice.org, also available for Windows, has yet to catch up to in terms of features), Outlook (far more than just a Thunderbird-style mail app), Photoshop (the latest version of which doesn't work under Wine), and Visual Studio (though Eclipse is a good contender, shame it's Java-based though perhaps one could complain about the .NET Framework - though the OSS community at large has embraced it, seeing as GNOME includes a Mono-based program). I realize most of the previously mentioned programs are

A: Commercial
B: Made by Microsoft

But, A doesn't matter because if we're looking at this from your typical consumer standpoint, purchasing software is cool, and if we're looking at it from a /. perspective, they're easy targets for piracy. Don't bother arguing that the majority of /. users haven't pirated software in the past - it's true. B obviously doesn't matter, because your moral trip will get you nowhere (except perhaps in Richard Stallman's 20-year-old stretched pants).

Also I (realize) this (post) contains excessive (amounts) of (parentheses). Please (forgive) me. ()

Re:Apples and Oranges

[Anonymous Coward]

I switched to Ubuntu a few months ago on an old computer, and was extremely impressed. I recently bought as new triple monitor computer, and was hoping for some Ubuntu beryl goodness. Boy was I disappointed. I spent about a week trying to get Feisty to work on it, and then a day on Gutsy (Unlike feisty, gutsy wouldn't even boot, either that or just didn't know how to display anything on the monitors...). After hanging around the forums and IRC for way too long, I had to thrown in the towel. I am probably going to keep trying with every new release, but I don't have very high hopes anymore.

I was really looking forward to beryl on a non crappy computer too.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[josh82]

"Canonical Ubuntu - Gutsy Gibbon is an operating system with the option of two Desktop environments and over 10,000 applications. I think there are around 45,000 deb files but all of those aren't programs. These applications include a web browser, graphics 3D and sound manipulation programs, games, photo and music management, office suite (out of the box), the list could go on."

Umm, the vast majority of those 10,000 applications have nothing in particular to do with Ubuntu. They are developed separately, by separate developers, who would continue to develop were there no Ubuntu. They were developed for, and indeed run, on distributions other than Ubuntu. In other words, Ubuntu != Linux.

By your standards, Vista would probably have over 1,000,000 applications, since there is quite a lot of tripe floating around that runs natively on Windows, just as your "10,000" programs run on Ubuntu.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[LingNoi]

Oh, and a few hundred thousand commercial, freeware, and open source programs,

You can't include applications that aren't officially supported by the Operating System vendor. At no point did I say third party software. You are a lazy reader.

And how many of those 45,000 debs are actual software and not libraries and dependencies for other programs,

I already mentioned they weren't all applications... read.. It's in the text you quoted me on.

I think there are around 45,000 deb files but all of those aren't programs.

I wasn't trying to hide any facts and these are applications supported by Canonical for the operating system and available in any install you do. There is an even wider range of software that isn't supported by Canonical but is in the repo. I'm not including that because it's not supported.

When you install Vista it doesn't also install Skype, Microsoft Office 2007 and Photoshop. Microsoft also won't support those applications with security fixes. When you install Ubuntu you also get Ekiga, GIMP and Open Office. All these applications are supported by Canonical which is why I said you only get a few Basic apps with Vista after you install it.

Since we're comparing operating systems here why would we include anything not in the operating system or supported by the operating system, no? ;)

Fact is, there is far more industry-standard software available for Windows,... rant rant rant

I wasn't talking about third party software. That's not an accurate comparison of operating systems.

You can't say you're comparing "Ubuntu and Vista" and then include MS Office 2007 in your comparison because MS Office doesn't come with Vista so it wouldn't be comparing Vista now would it.

You see how difficult it is to make a fair comparison? :)

Re:Apples and Oranges

[LingNoi]

It doesn't matter where the applications come from. The important thing is that they're supported by Canonical. The point of a fair comparison is that you take out anything that isn't supported and available in the operating system.

There is a large list of supported applications by Canonical which comes in the base install of Ubuntu and there is even more supported software that you can download. Vista is different in that you have to load it with Third party software unsupported by the OS manufacturer.

You can't include that unsupported third party software because we want to compare operating systems.

Ubuntu gets out of the way

[bendodge]

Ubuntu goes out of its way to get out of your way... Vista goes out of its way to be Vista and enforce the Vista way. This is very, very true. I'm using Kubuntu right now, and I don't "feel" like I'm "using" an OS. I mean, it just seems like I'm using a computer to run programs. On Vista, (which I thankfully only have to use when fixing some PCs) I am constantly reminded that I am running Vista.

Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubuntu

[doyoulikeworms]

Dual Screen.

Yeah, yeah... I know there are dual screen solutions for Linux, but none of them work correctly! Either my cursor will become garbled up, or the system will simply crash on reboot. Just an all around pain. Automatic, simple multiple display support would do wonders for Linux, IMHO.

But never forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

...no matter what OS you use, or how bad it is, at least you aren't twitter.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[agm]

I've been running triple head for a couple of years now (on Gentoo) with minimal issues and before that was running dual head for a few years (also Gentoo) - without issues. (My only current issue is that Beryl/Compiz won't work with Xinerama).

Re:"The greeter application appears to be crashing

[uglyduckling]

Have you tried posting to the Ubuntu support Wiki? If you have then post the URL here and I'm sure some Slashdotters, including myself, will be pleased to go over and help you. Don't forget to include full details (was that a clean install of Feisty, were you using unofficial repositories, Automatix etc., what method did you use to upgrade...)

yet another distro compare

[h2k1]

Come on guys, i really don't understand why this conversation hasn't finished yet. Even more, i do not know why ubuntu is so spectacular (as it was gentoo, mandrake, red hat, suse, etc) if it's only the configuration of software that differs in distribution. come on guys, jerk it off somewhere. About ubuntu, the other i ran across a machine running that and the default theme is too brown, i prefer the cristal blue redmond. But i liked when my pen appeared in the desktop when i plugged it in, but tell me, where is the console icon in the menus? I cannot run most of my programs because of this. In redmond i know that i have run in the main menu... Maybe i'll wait a few more years before i try this distro again.

Re:yet another distro compare

[LingNoi]

It's all about marketing and brand building.

If you have two competing products Pepsi and Coke, some people blasted by coke adverts are going to choose the coke. It's a fact, otherwise they wouldn't spend over $100 billion on advertising their brand.

Ubuntu is a brand. It has its nice circle logo and its motto. Why does everyone pick Ubuntu instead of Fedora, Gentoo, etc? Branding. They think they're getting a better product.

Why is it brown? Well apart from the whole "we want to be to human" thing it is about making the Ubuntu brand different from the Windows brand. Pepsi is Blue, Coke is red. Ubuntu is brown, Windows is blue.

To answer your console question do you mean Applications->Accessories->Terminal ?

Re:yet another distro compare

[halycon404]

Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal mind numbingly hard that one. The first thing I always do with every linux distro I've ever ran, was copy that to the desktop/hotbar. On windows the first thing I do is move the start bar to the left of the screen instead of the bottom. Very uncomplicated tasks for anyone who frequents slashdot. I liken it to getting in a car for the first time and then complaining because you have to adjust the mirrors.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

Erris, how can you seriously point to twitter journal as you are the same person ?

Rdesktop for legacy windows-only apps.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

I noticed a recurring lament in the comments attached to TFA: Businesses usually have one or a few business-specific and business-critical applications that are Windows-only and that don't run adequately under Wine. Rupert's suggestion was to run Windows under virtualization - i.e. polluting every seat at the shop with microsoft code and licenses.

Why not do what my company does: Run the can't-do-without-'em Windows apps on a central Windows server and access them remotely via rdesktop?

Then you have only as many licenses as you actually need and you can migrate as many desktops and laptops as you please to Linux.

(And since it uses Microsoft's own version of remote desktopping they'll have a hard time breaking it without breaking themselves. B-) )

Re:Rdesktop for legacy windows-only apps.

[Kalriath]

Because Terminal Server CALs are too damn expensive? Remember, XP only contains CALs for Windows 2000 Server. This rdesktop you link to has NO free CAL, you'd have to buy them all separately for 2000 Server. For 2003 Server you have to buy them all separately anyway. And then you gotta be wary because a lot of software (here's looking at you, Adobe) have license clauses outright forbidding usage on terminal servers of any sort. Yeah, for a home user they can just ignore the license. But that option isn't available to businesses.

Re:Rdesktop for legacy windows-only apps.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Because Terminal Server CALs are too damn expensive? Remember, XP only contains CALs for Windows 2000 Server. This rdesktop you link to has NO free CAL, you'd have to buy them all separately for 2000 Server.

Yes you need a per-connection license to stay legal while using server-based desktops. (Though there are per-client licensing schemes available, the usual model is per-connection.) But it may be far cheaper to get the number of licenses needed for the number of seats that need to run the biz-specific apps at any given time than to get Windows licenses for every seat.

And then you gotta be wary because a lot of software (here's looking at you, Adobe) have license clauses outright forbidding usage on terminal servers of any sort.

Too true. Which is something to take up with the vendors, now, isn't it?

Any bets on whether your biz-specific tool vendor will write you a license rider to let you use it from a server (at the same revenue for him as if you actually had it installed on all the relevant desktops) if you tell him you're working on migration to linux desktops and you REALLY want to stay with him rather than start evaluating the competition's products...

Re:Rdesktop for legacy windows-only apps.

[Kalriath]

And then you gotta be wary because a lot of software (here's looking at you, Adobe) have license clauses outright forbidding usage on terminal servers of any sort.

Too true. Which is something to take up with the vendors, now, isn't it?

Any bets on whether your biz-specific tool vendor will write you a license rider to let you use it from a server (at the same revenue for him as if you actually had it installed on all the relevant desktops) if you tell him you're working on migration to linux desktops and you REALLY want to stay with him rather than start evaluating the competition's products... In principle, you'd be right. Unfortunately in some industries (I work in public - i.e. government - healthcare) there really isn't any competition for X vendor. I'd be interested in hearing your views on how to deal with that type of situation, as it is probably all too common and I imagine that in the aforesaid cases, the vendor would be quite happy to "call your bluff" so to speak. I'm sure ours isn't the only industry where there isn't a lot of competition (3D modelling comes to mind - is there a Linux version of Maya or Lightwave?)

Re:Rdesktop for legacy windows-only apps.

[n dot l]

3D modelling comes to mind - is there a Linux version of Maya or Lightwave? Yes, Maya does run on Linux. It also runs on OSX. I've used it on both those platforms, as well as on Windows - it works just fine on all of the above.

Re:Rdesktop for legacy windows-only apps.

[drseuk]

(And since it uses Microsoft's own version of remote desktopping they'll have a hard time breaking it without breaking themselves. B-) ) ... or being invited to "dinner" again by the EU commission. From the linked page http://www.rdesktop.org/ :

rdesktop was initially written by Matthew Chapman based on various scarce documentation, wire sniffs, and trial-and-error. To me, this pretty much sums up the reason why Neelie Kroes and the EU commission took the anti-trust case so seriously.

Re:"The greeter application appears to be crashing

[LingNoi]

The great thing about open source is that if you do a search such as "The greeter application" in a forum you'll get a quick answer on how to resolve issues you have.

Here are a few links I found for your problem.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585899 - This guy suggests re-configuring X server.. since no one responded I assumed it worked
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gdm/+bug/48936 - There is a bug report about this here and lots of suggestions on how to fix it.

It has been exactly 6 days since Gutsy was released and it's great to see people working hard to fix your problem.

If that was a problem with Vista it would be an issue that wouldn't get fixed because it's an upgrade issue and you would most likely be forced to completely re-install your OS. That's why you should use Linux. Of course the choice is up to you. :)

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[dedazo]

Isn't it funny how you keep linking to twitter's journal? Oh wait, it's not. This account is a sockpuppet you use to troll Slashdot and shill your own posts when the 'twitter' one hits negative karma. Occasionally you get caught though, so the systems seems to be working.

It's interesting that these Vista stories whip you up into such a frenzy that you can't even be bothered to pretend you're twitter's "fan" anymore.

iTunes

[bwhiting]

The only thing that is keeping me from switching entirely to ubuntu is the poor support for my ipod and my precious itunes library. If only apple would release a linux version of iTunes, I could abandon Microsoft completely.
-bryan

Re:iTunes

[Bigjeff5]

Try Gutsy Gibbon, apparently that all works now out of the box, plug in and go. I dunno myself, my iPod battery died and I haven't sent it in to Apple to get it fixed yet (What's that about anyways, sheesh).

Re:iTunes

[Derek Loev]

My iPod worked all out of the box. And I like Amarok better than iTunes now.

Re:iTunes

[bwhiting]

I guess the problem I have is all the music and movies I have bought on the itunes store won't work so well outside of itunes, silly DRM, and silly me for buying DRM'd stuff in the first place...
-bryan

Re:iTunes

[Derek Loev]

I haven't noticed anything not working. Of course, I don't actually remember if I bough any music.

Re:iTunes

[Corporate Troll]

Find a Windows machine, install iTunes, import DRMed music fines, let Hymn/QTFairuse do its work. Congratulations, you now have unprotected AAC files. (I checked, QTFairuse at this point works with iTunes up and including version 7.4.3.1).

You could do all of this from within a virtual machine.

Oh, and after you did all this, buy non-DRM content only. That's what I did after DRM started to thoroughly piss me off.

Exactly

[Colin Smith]

Ubuntu goes out of its way to get out of your way... Windows gets in your face. The whole Windows paradigm is about the applications. What's important is the application. Christ, look at the way you access applications through the All Programs menu. A big long list ordered usually by software house... WTF? Then there's all the application icons on the desktop.

It's a DESKTOP paradigm... Y'know... files and folders... What's important is the data, the file. The application is irrelevant, it's just something to allow you to manipulate the data. Windows gets it all arse backwards which is why it's a pain to use. Ubuntu and OSX are easier to work with.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[davidsyes]

GODS, I hope you're saying that Bochs or some other kernelspace change means I can finally stop using Win4Lin, from 2005ish?

Will I be able to run Win98? I have NO need nor desire to pay for any xp/2k/vista and I don't pirate them, either. The copy of 98 I'm using came with my Gateway computer I bought back in like Dec 1999 or 98.

The thing that bugs the shit out of me is that when I needed win4lin so desperately I overlooked that I had to reboot to load certain USB hardware that the Win4Lin kernel mods didn't play nice with.

Now, I have a Samsung phone that PCLinux OS (2006?) CAN see, but when I boot into the Win4Lin kernel, I cannot access my cell. Neither of my 2 computers can, when W4L is the running kernel.

I wish Bochs or Cedega or whatever just CAME WITH the damned kernel. I'd PAY 15 or 45 extra dollars just to NOT have to spend HOURS dicking around with w4l. Some rebuilds I can finish with w4l in under 1 or 2, others, HOURS or days if I forget or mis read a step.

But, I use either PCLinuxOS or Mandriva. I LIKE Ubuntu, but I'd prefere Kubuntu, and I have yet to get Kubuntu on a cover disk of the various Linux mags.

Can SOMEbody make a kernel routing that auto-installs the emulators when it sees a win98/xp genuine install disk, OR set up wine nice and right?

I am also sick of trying to pull teeth out of Transgaming/Cedega to find out if Lotus SMARTSUITE works with Cedega, not just Lotus NOTES. Cedega and WINE installs have broken on me innumerable times and I just give up and stick with W4L, but now I'm bitter that I am missing out on new kernel features meant to part of a NEW distro. I'm tired of going lowest-common-denominator with the deprecated W4L kernel, and I am NOT sidegrading to XP, 2k or vista.

Re:"The greeter application appears to be crashing

[jguthrie]

The greeter is the program that presents you with the login under X. My guess is that the one the system wants to use by default keeps crashing so it's trying to use a different one, but that's just my guess. Of course, your system isn't even approximately dead if you're getting that message. If you want to log in, you can still CTRL-ALT-F1 to get to a console login and get enough access to your system to diagnose why the greeter is crashing.

If you'd prefer not to do the work, it'd probably take me about 15 minutes to fix. For that sort of thing, I get $65 per hour with a four hour minimum to take a look at it, FOB Katy, Texas. I'd expect that the update didn't complete, so parts of the system are missing. If that's the case, it should be a simple matter to do an update using apt and see what's messed up.

As for why you're supposed to use Linux, well, I didn't know that you had a requirement to use Linux. I use it because I prefer it, myself.

My opinion

[Jugalator]

Ubuntu is great, better than Vista in most aspects, when the drivers and lacking hardware support don't get in your way. :-/

Unfortunately, this seem to be a more common occurence than even in Vista, from my experiences anyway.

But this is not really a blame on just Ubuntu, but on hardware support from manufacturers. Not that it matter who it is to blame for the end user.

Re:My opinion

[Almahtar]

Unfortunately, this seem to be a more common occurence than even in Vista, from my experiences anyway. That could be because 99% of Vista machines shipped with Vista and all necessary drivers pre-installed, while very few Linux machines shipped with pre-installed Linux.

It's during installation of the OS that 90% of driver issues are encountered.

Re:My opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

Well hopefully it won't be long before the Community or Canonical launch a "Gutsy-Certified Hardware" site. This would be a real boon to us all.

Core Values

[CodeBuster]

Ubuntu goes out of its way to get out of your way... Vista goes out of its way to be Vista and enforce the Vista way.

This really speaks to the core values and differences between the closed source and open source philosophies as outlined by Richard Stallman (yes, Richard Stallman is different from most of the rest of us and some people just cannot get past the beard and the long hair, but he has some worthwhile things to say if you can get past the charisma issue, -4 reaction adjustment at least if we were playing D&D) among others. The closed source philosophy is really about their way of doings, the experience that they want you to have, and their control of every aspect of that experience whereas the open source philosophy is all about freedom to choose your own experience, the experience that you want to have, and your choice about every aspect of that experience. If you want to take the defaults that is alright OR if you think that something that is not available and should be then you can take the source code and make it happen...it is all good AND other people cannot subsequently take that away from you (the GPL requirement of sharing changes and additions).

Re:Core Values

[Billly Gates]

So change it?

Pick Kdesktop and customize it if you do not think gnome is customizable enough. To me I like the gnome ubuntu tools as they are integrated and fit well together. Go install window maker or XFCE as well?

Very different from Vista.

But I do expect things to work out of the box and I do not understand why thats a bad thing.

Re:Core Values

[r3m0t]

Oh really? Linux has its own "let's create your experience". It's called Richard Stallman.

http://man.he.net/man1/su
"Why GNU su does not support the wheel group (by Richard Stallman)"

But if you want true authoritarian control with a "total branding experience"... look no further than the unmutable, unchangable Vista startup sound. "A spiritual side of the branding experience."!

http://scobleizer.com/2006/08/24/the-startup-sound-in-vista/

Forget all the uses in hospitals, connections to massive amps that can deafen people, radio broadcasts, libraries and every other sane place on the planet. Vista wanted to unmute your audio channels and play this sound every time it starts up.

They caved in, but although you can turn the sound on or off, you can't set it to a different audio file. This creates a strange dichotomy in the configuration dialog, where there's a big scrollable list of all the sounds your computer might make, and you can set or clear each one. Then there's a random checkbox labelled "Play the Vista startup sound".

Of course, Apple does the same, but they put the sound in the BIOS. You need to download a shim to mute your sound when you shut down, and unmute your sound when you start up.

I look forward to missing the next iteration of absurd statements of control applied onto users by software makers.

Re:Core Values

[Neil]

But since GNU su is Free Software, if you want group wheel restrictions in su then there is nothing to stop you adding them yourself. And encouraging/lobbying your distributor to take your patches ... :-)

UAE ... necessary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forgive me, but I honestly don't see anything "necessary" in UAE. Because of the way it trains people to ignore the huge number of stupid and meaningless "security" popups it creates, I find that it gives people poor security habits.

I feel that turning it off would make the overall system MORE secure because they wouldn't attempt to rely on something so useless.

So, exactly what part of it do you find necessary enough to keep? I, for one, would permanently eviscerate UAC.

Heh, even my captcha "debility" agrees.

Re:UAE ... necessary?

[MikShapi]

That is the outright stupidest and lamest approach to security I have yet heard.

If anything, it (and the smart educators among the geeks) teaches users to stay within their userspace.
I'm a sysadmin. I use Vista on my laptop due to my needs from it. I run with UAC on. I typically encounter less than a single confirmation dialog a week. Why? because I work entirely in my userspace.

If you're a system software developer, yes, you have a good case for disabling it. But Joe average? he has a big chunk of money he spends on a tech who routinely fixes his computer at stake. UAC saves him that money if he realises it's a seatbelt and learns how to use it rather than not bothering to put it on.

Disabling UAC to get rid of the dialogs is like disabling a server monitoring/alerting system because it is making noise. That is NOT the solution. The solution is identifying and eliminating the broken shit you're doing that's causing the noise, so the system is allowed to properly do its job.

And if your software insists on writing user shit in program files (for which Vista has a hidden workaround, placing these files in a hidden directory inside your user profile, sidestepping compatibility issues with a big slice of old bad software), just upgrade or replace the software. If it can't work in an unprivileged NT environment, it's the software vendor you blame for writing crap software. Privileged NT envieonments have been around for a decade now.

These alerts are there for a purpose.

Something new...

[Derek Loev]

I think it would be a lot more interesting to see a review between Leopard and Gutsy Gibbon. I am using this on Ubuntu 7.10 which I installed yesterday (previously a Gentoo user) and I love it. I have never experienced having my video card, printer, wireless card, and sound card all work. Not to mention importing my entire iPod in a few clicks and being able to play all my music in another few clicks. It's a very Mac like experience and that's why I want to see a solid review (not the usual reviews that end up on /.) between OS X and GG.

Tried 7.10 x86-64, broke it in about a day

[Anonymous Coward]

I just built an Athlon 64 X2 system with an nVidia graphics card and tried the latest release of Ubuntu on it. I wasted a couple hours replacing the mud colored theme, playing with wobbly windows and such (my advice is turn the wobbling off), then decided to go with it. I added one more PCI card (a video capture card, in case I needed it and could find drivers later) buttoned up the box and put it under the workbench. I don't know if the card did it, or someting else, but Ubuntu is broken now. Crashes and reboots as soon as I attempt to log in as user. Can't log in as root. Thanks for nothing, Canonical. I am going to install Fedora 8 test 3 over it to get some stability. Or Windows Vista.

Re:Tried 7.10 x86-64, broke it in about a day

[fractoid]

I added one more PCI card (a video capture card, in case I needed it and could find drivers later) buttoned up the box and put it under the workbench. Fool! FOOOL! Never EVER put the side of a box on unless you've tested the hardware inside. In fact, if any of the hardware is iffy, turn it on and then screw the case shut while it's running, that way you trap all the good mojo inside and it absolutely HAS to keep working. :P

Vista wins for me.

[Computershack]

Vista wins for me for one simple reason - WIFI WORKS. Just wasted two evenings trying to get Wifi working on Ubuntu. Ubuntu correctly identifies the Wifi adapter and lists the ESSID of the router. SO WHY WONT IT CONNECT EVEN THOUGH I HAVE COMPLETELY DISABLED WEP AND WPA? Tried both the native and NDISWRAPPER ways - same problem. So sod Ubuntu, I'll stick with Vista - at least my hardware works.

And if you think I'm alone with this problem, shove "wifi wireless connection problem" into the search box at the Ubuntu forums and see how many threads there are....

Re:Vista wins for me.

[deftcoder]

Let me guess... Broadcom card?

Re:Vista wins for me.

[MrBandersnatch]

I'm going to give a nod to this since its also my major problem in 7.10 (G1S laptop). Things are flawless after a reboot but once Ive hibernated things head downhill fast. The most annoying thing? Wireless worked flawlessly most of August and September :/

Add on the amount of time 7.10 takes to resume from hibernation (slower than Vista for me, contrary to TFA authors experience) and introduction of the "SLEEP OR DIE" mode (50/50 which it will do) and sadly I STILL havnt been able to wipe Vista off the machine. Roll on, Hardon!

Re:Vista wins for me.

[Ch40sC0d3]

I don't understand what the problem is with the wireless in 7.10 I had problems like this with 7.04 but 7.10 works flawlessly. Had you even tried 7.10 or are you going with what happened with 7.04? Im just wondering.

Re:Vista wins for me.

[boyter]

Totally agree. At my house wires are not an option due to the layout so I moved to wireless. I would dearly love to use Ubuntu or some other linux but I have been unable to get it to work at all.

My experience with 7.10 was that it correctly sets up my card, connects to the AP, gets an IP address and then....

cannot do anything. Even ping the router. Its frustrating in the extreme. I tried it on several other machines (with different cards) and none worked out of the box.

The only consolation I have is that my laptop with the cheapest PCMCIA wifi card I could find ($30) works flawlessly.

Re:Vista wins for me.

[Computershack]

Let me guess... Broadcom card? Actually, no. I can get the Broadcomm card on my laptop to work with no problems whatsoever. But on the desktop I've tried RA Link chipset, a MIMO chipset one and a Origo one. The Origo one was the one that is supposedly natively supported. All of them PCI and all of them recognised using native or ndiswrapper and all of them showing the ESSID of the wifi LAN with signal strength and all of them falling over when trying to negociate with the router. I've tried both a Netgear DG834GT and an old eTEC Wifi router.

I gave up banging my head against the wall. The plethora of posts about it on the Ubuntu support forums suggest wifi is quite broken still.

Re:Vista wins for me.

[mrjb]

Vista wins for you for one simple reason - the manufacturer of your WIFI hardware 1) refused to write Linux drivers AND 2) refused to supply documentation so that Linux drivers could be written for them for free.

Explain how this indicates anything about how good or bad either Linux or Vista is?
AFAICT it just shows that the people that released your wireless network hardware are lazy bastards.

I wouldn't want to buy hardware from them, because they're unlikely to keep supporting the product. Let us know how things turn out for you when Vista has a successor.

Re:"The greeter application appears to be crashing

[shellbeach]

And I'm supposed to use Linux why?.

Ignoring the obvious Wallmart greeter jokes, does anyone even know what this means? Sure - the greeter application is the graphical logon screen when you start up. Why it should be crashing, though, I really don't know. Try googling for the error message.

As for upgrades - my philosophy is to treat the upgrade process with the same respect as typing "sudo rm -rf /" - make sure you've backed up *everything* and can recover from bare metal if need be. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the one sure thing is that once you start, you can't go back without a backup.

And why are you supposed to use Linux? No reason at all - there are pluses and minuses to every system, and if you don't like it, go back to Windows. Seriously. If you're happier with Windows, stick with Windows - it's not *that* bad a system these days! Of course, you'll have problems and issues with Windows, too ... it's just the nature of the os beast.

I think a lot of people see linux as some sort of magic bullet to all their Windows woes. They think that installing it will take them to a land where nothing ever crashes and hippies dance across their laptop screen with flowers in their hair. It's not that simple. Like any OS, linux needs to be learnt and needs to be tamed to get it to work for you.

Those of us that enjoy using linux do so in the same way some people like working on their cars. We can get under the hood, take everything apart, put it back together and make it work better (or more the way we want). But the end result is just a part of it - it's the hobbyist mentality, and getting our hands dirty is all part of the fun.

If you just want an OS to take you from A to B, linux probably isn't for you. And there's nothing wrong with that attitude, and there's nothing wrong with you if you don't happen to like linux!

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps

[Taleron]

My computer arrived with Ubuntu installed on it.

LoL. You should put lies in the end of message.

As hard as your reply was to read, I think I understood it. But I'm still wondering what you mean by lies - does this mean that from your perspective, Dell's just making areas of their site for kicks? Not to say that's the source of the parent's pre-installed Ubuntu box, but how many times does one need to ask a major OEM to get a Linux system?

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

wow twitter, you're not even trying to fool people into thinking you're someone else, are you?

Different things for different reasons

[voss]

I have a Vista Desktop and a Linux Laptop. I recently switched my laptop from Suse Linux 10.3 to Ubuntu 7.1 for my laptop not for the moral reasons or any particular
"open source" mantra but because Ubuntu now that they offer some proprietary "restricted" software works BETTER than suse.

I can use Skype on linux laptop just like I do on my windows desktop, and I use openoffice on both too.

Many, many people do not use their laptop as a "desktop replacement" for them a laptop is something you use to
write letters, send email , surf the net and other basic stuff you do when your away from home.. Sound familiar?
I can even watch youtube and listen to mp3s.

Linux is BETTER for laptops(especially older laptops) than Vista BY FAR. I can run the latest version of Ubuntu 7.1
VERY WELL on a 1 ghz Dell C600 laptop with 512mb of memory...try doing that with vista.

Im glad Ubuntu folks finally got their head out of their ass and realized this. The little things like wireless drivers
for intel cards make ALL the difference.

Ubuntu 7.1 should have been Ubuntu 8.0 because its a quantum leap over 7.04...its that much better.

The only thing I cant get working with ubuntu...yet is usb webcams

Re:Different things for different reasons

[voss]

Hey my old creative webcam works in Ubuntu 7.1, holy crap! :)

Re:Different things for different reasons

[Techman83]

I'm guessing you don't understand the Ubuntu numbering system, unlike *insert some over marketed product here* they are not trying to get with hey look version X has arrived, oooo it's a new big clean number, guess it must be better.

7.10 simply stands for the 10 month, 2007, it's release date. There most likely won't be a 8.00, as there isn't a release due till 8.04 (april 2008).

I myself have been enjoying the development of Ubuntu since 5.10, Have never looked back. I even play games under Linux! And more often than not, things just work. Rarely do I have to hack something up to make it work. But I'm glad the freedom is available if I don't like the way something works, I can just change it to suit myself.

Re:Different things for different reasons

[nursegirl]

Hey - It's Ubuntu 7.10, not 7.1 for a reason. "7" indicates the year of release, and 10 indicates the month. Ubuntu 7.1 would be whichever Feisty Alpha they released in January.

Re:Different things for different reasons

[nonos]

Dell C600... Did you manage to get accelerated graphics with the new Ubuntu ? I'm with the 7.04 version and can't use it in 1400x1080...

Re:Different things for different reasons

[voss]

The latitude c600 only does 1024x768

Its not whether Linux beats Vista...

[Zombie Ryushu]

Linux can beat Microsoft only by Surviving. As a Linux user; I don't ask. "Will this be the year of Linux Desktop." I worry. "Will this be the year of the Linux genocide?" Because thats what MS calls for, the "genocide" of Linux. As with all previous years, the question is, as it always has been, what do we have to do as Linux users to Stay Alive!

Try Gutsy Gibbon

[icsEater]

You may want to give Gutsy Gibbon a try. It has a new GUI-based screen configuration utility that handles dual screens. http://www.ubuntu.com/files/GutsyImages/Screen-and-Graphic-Preferences.jpg This is a feature that I've been waiting for :-) Yes, mucking around with xorg.Conf isn't too hard, but this makes life easier for new comers.

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[etherlad]

Trust me, I was waiting for it too. But the new configuration utility doesn't seem to be working at all for many ATI boards.

So until I can figure out how to fix it (along with a few dozen other Ubuntu users), my secondary display is stuck as a clone of my primary.

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, other OSes have only had that feature for years now! Good thing Ubuntu is on the job.

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[doyoulikeworms]

Yea, I heard that Gutsy had that feature, so I was very excited to upgrade to it, but it's a broken feature on my rig. *shrug*

With some mucking around in the xorg.conf, I can get as far as having both screens recognized, separately, with two desktops... but it's not treated as one large desktop like other OSes. There are solutions like bigdesktop and xinerama, but they just fuck with my display settings, leaving me with either a broken xorg.conf or garbled graphical elements. It sucks a lot.

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[apharov]

Yeah, it sure does have a nice GUI for dual screen configuring. That nice utility also doesn't recognise my second monitor at all which makes the whole point kind of moot for me. The available refresh rates for the only monitor are 50Hz and 53Hz which results in some nice tearing when moving windows around. nvidia-settings (I'm using the restricted drivers for my 8800) does recognize the second monitor and has the correct refresh rates available but the settings don't stick. Overall I'm still sticking with WinXP + UltraMon which is a really nice setup for dual monitor use. I'd rather do something useful with the time that would be spent mucking with problematic dual monitor support in Gutsy.

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[Anonymous Coward]

The Screen and Graphic Preferences is not stable and can mess up your /etc/X11/xorg.conf . It did mess up mine. Your results may vary, but I suggest you stick to xrandr for now. I used it to set up my second monitor on my MacBook. Here's the article I read to learn how to use it: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Installing_Ubuntu_6.06.1_on_a_ThinkPad_R60e#Ubuntu_7.10_with_Intel_Graphics_Media_Accelerator_950

I love the Ubuntu community! Oh, that's me... I love me (and all of you for contributing to who I am).

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[Anonymous Coward]

But it doesn't work! I've just installed Gutsy Gibbon on my machine. I have a Nvidia video card. I've connected the LCD using the DVI port and the LCD/TV using the VGA port. Guess what? The "GUI-based screen configuration utility that handles dual screens" only sees the TV. So, back to "mucking around with xorg.conf". And that sucks. Frankly, even though I've done this thing 5-6 times I can never really remember what should I put in the conf file because you have to add a lot to make things work. Maybe in the next release... (crossing fingers, using windows another 6 months ;) )

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[dhfoo]

yeah and X has had the ability to support multiple everything (not just screens) for decades.

ner ner ne ner ner.

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[Anonymous Coward]

Try running nvidia-settings as root, that'll allow you to save the new xorg.conf properly

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[Drogo007]

I installed gusty on my wife's old computer that we recently replaced as a way to play with linux, use it to rip my CD collection to MP3, file server, etc etc etc....

An yet, when my login screen got stuck in an unusable state due to video settings going haywire (I never know what video modes are going to be available to me from one reboot to the next - even thought it's a fresh install of Gutsy on a relatively decent computer with a Radeon 9600) I had to use a second computer to go hit google and find out how to switch to TTY2, manually (from the CLI) kick off that reconfigure and reboot.

Moral of the story? Still had to use CLI. In windows XP land it would've been hit the reset button, have windows come up during the next reboot with a nice little text menu offering me the choice of booting normally or booting in safe mode, booting in safe mode and fixing the problem.

Re:Try Gutsy Gibbon

[rabbitnightmare]

Well I did and it had problems with my wireless Logitech mouse lx70 it wouldnt let my keyboard to work until i hooked up my other mouse... before that it read the mouse as a laptop battery and the mouse skipped around the screen but atleast the keyboard worked... before this problems with grub just dieing... grub ftw but if you mess it up you must be pretty dim as it is much easier than lilo... problems not seeing hardware X (insert x simile as there are too many to count) Ubuntu seems to me a novelty at best... Back to RPM/TGZ based distros as it is what I know. I hate the what works for me must be God's word as the works for me is inherently diluted as working period. Other distros have had no such problems from Gentoo to Slackware to Mandriva to PcLinux OS... I don't seriously get why Ubuntu gets so much acclaim as it has not worked not only for me but many people I know. That ranks up near 50 or so a small but serious chunk of change, allow me to explain before calling me a troll. It is a small LUG. One is a Debian guru and has contributed alot of code even kernel based, under him he has his following of 9 peeps. One is a Slackware guru and has his 9 followers. One is a Gentoo guru and he has his 9 faithful followers. One is a PcLinuxOS guru and his 9. And I the lowly, ahem, dare I say it; Mandriva guru with my 9 faithful followers. All of us have differing opinions in our choice of OS. We also have alot in common and come away from Windows to one of these distros as Christians come away from Cathalosism to Christianity. Ubuntu is another we all have in common all 50 of us have had quirks in our choice of os but were willing to deal with problem X as it isn't as detrimental as grub dieing on us or a critical piece of hardware not working. We seem to have a 3 stike rule on distros and Ubuntu struck out and we will never look at again most certainly. Not for religious reasons. We were looking for a central distro to push to make pushing Linux easier. As we all have family and friends who look up to us as gods of the computer world and that number grows from 50 to 250+ really quickly which spread by word of mouth has our little community quite the powerful one. I don't think Microsoft actually cares if Linux overpowers it in the os market. Yes Windows is a cash cow and they bit the bullet with DRM garbage. If there are billions of developers making Linux the better choice this is less time MS has to spend on an os and relieve the headache that is they have to please everyone. To get a better market with Office/Direct X. If they market Direct X and sell it as licensed to people who want to game on Linux could be a really good thing. I dont hate MS or most of the products they offer. Just my bias is against Windows. I would buy Office 2009 Direct X 11 and Halo 4 if it became available for Linux as all 3 products would be at the top of the line. I love all three and if Microsoft were foresighted and hindsighted enough to see this and make friends with certain distros and cross license them it might be a good thing... Oh wait they may already be doing this. They know they cant verily sue Linux distributers as you can not get blood from a stone. Note SCO. But instead may verily see a much larger market in the making without doing the work themselves could return much more profit than if they refused the change. Heck may even make them more money if they sell out on Windows and let it kill itself than to institute a better technology and do more work than they have to. Technology seems to be moving away from closed source expensive key technologies to cheaper better alternatives as is the way of technology in general. Dont believe me look at the television. -- I did it I finally fixed Windows all I had to do was turn the computer upside down!

So you're saying is that ...

[Colin Smith]

Vista is shit unless you upgrade all your machines?

Hmmm. Lets see, 100,000 systems in your big corporation at say $1000 each is oooh one hundred million dollars.

And you all wonder why I.T. departments are being outsourced. I mean, DOH!

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[Bigjeff5]

I work in an environment where everybody loves the dual+ screens, and you would not believe how many issues there are with them. And this is on standardized hardware, so everything is the same, start mixing things up and you're in for a world of hurt. However, I seem to remember seeing some options in the video settings for setting up dual monitors which was about as straight-forward as windoze. Though "just working" like windows usually does would be nice.

Ugh iPhoto

[JoeCommodore]

iPhoto may look and act real spiffy but it is a hog on hard disk resources and file management (just like the new Mail App). If you just look at a photo in iPhoto it makes a duplicate and stores the previous version (well ok a little bit more than look, but with 10 mpix digital cameras we are taking an extra 3mb taken up for a simple brightness adjustment) While it is easy to make these revisions it's darned near impossible to get iPhoto to clean up it's mess. It's one of those things on our work computers I prefer not to back up (if I can avoid it).

Fortunately most popular FOSS projects are on top of such behavior and strive to keep their programs under better control.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[c_forq]

I believe this behavior is done for two reasons. One: so it can edit pictures non-destructively (as in none of your original data is destroyed, very important to those of us who might use the same picture multiple times and edit it differently for different occasions). Two: to avoid the issue of loss of data through compression. Almost any slashdotter can tell you of the ability of jpeg to destroy pictures after repeated compression.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[God'sDuck]

Simple mathematical transforms, however, can be stored. EG, if you have set the three sliders to "25," "10" and "15," those numbers can be stored (say, 0.5KB of metadata) instead of the resulting file, and then reapplied every time you want to see the changed version. Photoshop calls them filter layers. Much easier on the hard drive and RAM -- but taking that approach means you have to manually export the resulting file to send it to a friend; not necessarily the best approach for consumer software.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[westlake]

we are taking an extra 3mb taken up for a simple brightness adjustment

with the 500 GB SATA HDD on sale for $150 tell me why I should care.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[JoeCommodore]

When you have 20+ systems to backup it gets to be a big problem. Like I said, if there was some way for iPhoto to clean up the photo cache when you don't want all those revisions it would be a welcome improvement, but iPhoto does not seem to have such capability.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[Entropius]

This is what Picasa does, btw.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[modecx]

Yeah, but the simple enough idea of smart layers feature hasn't appeared until CS3. I mean, for a program that has been under development as long as photoshop, no less a program intended for professionals, I would think this would have been around for a little while longer. The idea of a virtual layer that applies a series of filters to the parent layer, in a specific order, seems simple enough--and of course it would save gobs of memory on huge images, but would probably require lots more processor, depending on the usage.

Same thing for "save selection", and adjustment layers that would be better served without a layer mask. Is it really necessary to create a full color channel the same size of the full image, so that you can load a selection area? Sure, you can take your selection and save it as a vector path, and that works fine and dandy sometimes. Doesn't work well with flowing hair in my experience, unless you get the just right feather radius. I mean, a MacPro with 16GB of memory looks pretty attractive for the things I want to do sometimes, and yet it might not be enough for doing big images right, and in an easily modifiable way. The next step is to do the mac and keep a swap drive on some kind of beefy fibre channel array, or super computer/datacenter/cluster-worthy NAS.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[cecil_turtle]

I don't know where you shop but 500 GB hard drives are $100-$110. Anyway, disk storage isn't the (only) problem. Those bits have to be written and read to/from the hard drive (slow performance), stored in memory, sent over the network, sent over the Internet, sent to USB drives, stored on backups, etc. Unneeded / excessive bloat is never a good thing. Attitudes like yours are why computers that are 50 times "faster" than they were 10 years ago perform the same or slower. Have you used Vista?

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[scoot80]

why do you make the assumption he is in the US?

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[francium de neobie]

What if you want to send it to a friend and your friend is still using a 56k modem?

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[westlake]

What if you want to send it to a friend and your friend is still using a 56k modem?

burn everything to a disk or a card or a USB drive and mail it.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[Anonymous Coward]

500GB is still too much for a DVD. Hmm, I wonder how come none ever made "Optical Tape Storage" (and I DON'T mean microfilm)? Perhaps read and write precision used in optical media cannot be attained on flexible materials?

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[Chaffar]

What if you want to send it to a friend and your friend is still using a 56k modem?

What is this "friend" thing you speak of?

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[adah]

Much easier on the hard drive and RAM -- but taking that approach means you have to manually export the resulting file to send it to a friend; not necessarily the best approach for consumer software.

As another poster said, Picasa does it. And it does it well. It is very easy to e-mail the picture to a friend from inside Picasa, and you do not need to export it. Newer versions of Picasa also provide the capability to save the modified picture—and the original version is saved in a hidden directory, increasing disk usage as iPhoto does.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[r3m0t]

You should care for your filesystem performance.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[LingNoi]

Just DHL the hard drive like Google does when it has to transfer over 1TB of storage data.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[edwardsdl]

Where did he make that assumption?

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[Anonymous Coward]

Where else could he be. US is the world.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[tecmec]

Newegg, at least last time I checked, only ships to the US. Therefor, the assumption was made when he chose to quote a price that was only available to US residents. Although, in his defense, a nice WD 500GB drive can be had for $100 CAD as well (NCIX.com). So one could extrapolate and say that hard drive prices should be pretty cheap for most people anywhere.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[eikonos]

Yes, the transforms can be stored and applied to the source image, but with a large library of files the previews will take ages to appear if each image needs to be transformed. It's better to save a preview of the transformed images on disk and display those.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah well why do YOU make the assumption that he is a he? OH SNAPS!

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[cecil_turtle]

First of all I didn't say he was. But it would be a good assumption, and here's why:

1. Slashdot IS US-centric
   Slashdot is U.S.-centric. We readily admit this, and really don't see it as a problem. Slashdot is run by Americans, after all, and the vast majority of our readership is in the U.S.
2. He used the dollar sign (typically US) and didn't specify another form of currency with it (e.g., $CAD), so because of #1 this is a reasonable assumption.

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[scoot80]

In Australia, a 500GB drive might cost you AUD150.00. Our dollar has gone up compared to the USD, so that should maybe be a little bit cheaper. A nice WD 500GB SATA will cost about $153.00 (AUD).

Re:Ugh iPhoto

[Anonymous Coward]

And how exactly are you going to install this 2nd harddrive into your typical Mac?

Gutsy Gibbon isn't QUITE "there" yet...

[mad_clown]

Gutsy Gibbon isn't "there" yet as far as being a perfectly consumer-friendly desktop system. It's fairly close -- I'm using it right now, in fact -- but it still has a ways to go. Yes, Compiz is nice. It also has a habit of causing MPlayer to go haywire. Things always seem kind of sluggish. Sure, my machine is a bit old, but even XP wasn't quite as sluggish. It's not unbearable though. Close. But not there yet.

Ipod? Works pretty well. Basic copying of files works nicely (albeit with a few GTKpod kinks here and there). Mounting and un-mounting usually work automatically without any extra prodding after plugging it in. Usually. Smart playlists are dodgy in GTKpod. Giving Amarok a try, so we'll see. But still... Not. Quite. There. Yet.

Program installation? Well, Synaptic/apt-get are great. You got the right repositories in there, and you know what you're looking for -- works like a charm. Can't see my mom learning how to add repositories and public key signatures. Close. But not quite there yet.

On the other hand, it's leaps and bounds ahead of where Linux-on-the-desktop used to be the last time I went down that path (SuSe 7.something? Mandrake something-dot-something?? Few years ago, anyways...). So progress is definitely being made. It all depends on your personal threshold.

For me, Ubuntu has proven to be quite - QUITE - sufficient. I'll probably be sticking with it for everything except ArcGIS. For all the "moms" of the world, though... I just don't think it's quite there yet. Give it a few more years and it might just make it.

Then we just need a good way of marketing it...

Re:Gutsy Gibbon isn't QUITE "there" yet...

[Ch40sC0d3]

Totally agreed with this. My wife had the tool bars deleted with in 5 mins. So yeah basic stuff like locking the tool bars on default would be good. Thats the only thing I can say I had problems with. Not really the os fualt. Just needs to be a little bit more stupid proof.

Re:Gutsy Gibbon isn't QUITE "there" yet...

[ricegf]

Compiz is nice... Sure, my machine is a bit old, but even XP wasn't quite as sluggish.

That's not unexpected. XP is equivalent to Gnome, while Compiz is equivalent to Vista Aero. If you turn off Compiz, I suspect you'll get better resonse than with XP - and it will be a reasonable comparison. At least, that's been my consistent experience on several machines on which I've run both.

Ipod? Works pretty well.

Which is fairly impressive, come to think of it. Ipod is a rather closed ecosystem. My nice-and-open Nokia 770, on the other hand, works equally well as a music player with Windows or Ubuntu. Of course, it doesn't play DRM'd music - but that's a feature in my book. ;-)

Synaptic/apt-get are great... Can't see my mom learning how to add repositories and public key signatures...

Does she have trouble adding repositories and public key signatures to XP? Oh, wait, XP and Vista can't do that. Maybe in 2010+. But it seems a bit unfair to claim Ubuntu is "not quite there yet" because a feature it has that XP lacks, and that works great out of the deb, can't be extended to even greater functionality without typing in a URL.

Actually, I'm torn between wanting a simpler way to add repositories, and believing that your mom should stick to the supported Ubuntu universe. Running unsupported software is a risk on any OS; perhaps keeping that as something special for the technically competent is a good design decision, like saving Nitro boosters for car performance enthusiasts.

For all the "moms" of the world, though... I just don't think it's quite there yet.

I respectfully disagree. My 88-year-old dad has fewer problems with Ubuntu than he had with XP (I set up both machines for him - he didn't do the OS install himself, of course).

Given a healthy pre-install market (currently growing), and a "Certified for Ubuntu" sticker to help consumers select supported peripherals (Canonical? Hello?), I think Ubuntu is finally ready with the Gibbon to go toe to toe with Microsoft and Apple in the commercial arena.

Just my humble opinion, of course. Yours and Mark Shuttleworth's may vary. :-)

Re:Gutsy Gibbon isn't QUITE "there" yet...

[MeditationSensation]

That's a great compliment. X is "quite sufficient." Hehe. I'm gonna use it on my wife.

Re:Gutsy Gibbon isn't QUITE "there" yet...

[mad_clown]

That's not unexpected. XP is equivalent to Gnome, while Compiz is equivalent to Vista Aero.

That's a very good point, and with Compiz disabled you're correct: performance is faster. It still causes problems with video playback, though. But again, your point is fair.

I dispute, however, your argument re: apt-get/synaptic. You're correct to note that that sort of functionality is altogether missing in Windows. It's functionality that, if I were to go back to Windows, I would sorely miss. Were I to plop it down on my mom's desktop, however, she would have trouble with it. Given that apt-get/Synaptic is the primary way of obtaining software in Ubuntu, I think it's usability is a fair criticism, whether or not anything similar to apt-get exists in Windows (and I think one could make the argument that Windows Update is a primitive and poorly-implemented version of the same idea -- albeit with a different intent).

I think Ubuntu is finally ready with the Gibbon to go toe to toe with Microsoft and Apple in the commercial arena.

I do respectfully disagree... although as I stated, I think things are definitely getting close. When I look at what Apple has done with putting a spiffy GUI over BSD, I think "That is how it ought to be." Not because I particularly love OS X's UI (in fact, I'm swiftly becoming a GNOME partisan...), but rather because I still don't feel that there's enough separation between the UI and what's going on underneath the hood for the average user to feel comfortable with. You and I know that OS X's GUI is running over BSD, but most OS X users I run into at work doing computer support think of the terminal as something powerful yet superfluous -- something they never need to worry themselves with.

Again: I'm just not quite convinced that Ubuntu is at that point yet. As great as it is, it still retains something of that "cobbled together" feel to it.

But you know... I have to do an XP re-install on my mom's computer this weekend. Maybe I'll set up an Ubuntu partition and tell her to try it out if she's feeling adventurous... Who knows? Maybe we'll get another convert...

Re:Gutsy Gibbon isn't QUITE "there" yet...

[mad_clown]

It still causes problems with video playback, though.

I should clarify. By this I mean that Compiz still causes video playback programs when it is enabled. When it is disabled, playback functions correctly. Wasn't sure if that was obvious.

Re:Gutsy Gibbon isn't QUITE "there" yet...

[ricegf]

Given that apt-get/Synaptic is the primary way of obtaining software in Ubuntu, I think it's usability is a fair criticism, whether or not anything similar to apt-get exists in Windows

The usability of apt-get/Synaptic is certainly fair game - but I had read your point to be that adding additional repositories beyond supported, third-party, and universe was too difficult. Given that a mom-type is unlikely to go searching for software beyond the universe repository of 10,000 programs or so, and that universe can be enabled with a simple drop-down in the Add/Remove Programs dialog, I think your mom and my dad are square with that.

If your point is that clicking Add/Remove Programs and selecting programs to install in the dialog is too difficult for a mom-type, then the criticism is fair - but I don't see it. What better interface would you suggest? Other than "read the user's mind", I can't envision any easier way to get software. But maybe I lack imagination. *shrug*

OK

[That's Unpossible!]

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you SLASHDOT fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a HOOKER (a HARDBODY w/TIGHT ASS for RAMming) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to BLOW ME on the hard dick. 20 minutes. At home, on my ancient WIFE running HER MOUTH, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this SLUT, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that. In addition, during this SEMEN transfer, MYDICK will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even HER HAND is straining to keep up as I type this. I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various BITCHES, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a WHORE that has run faster than its WIFE counterpart, despite the WHORE's same architecture. My WIFE with 200 POUNDS of ram runs faster than this SLUT machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that PROSTITUTE is a superior operating system. SEX lovers, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use THIS PENIS SHEATH over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Re:OK

[MooseMuffin]

Heh, I found it funny.

Re:OK

[Anonymous Coward]

me too I just pissed myself!

Re:OK

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too, mod must be a Mac fanboi.

Including the mod who's about to rate this post a troll.

Re:OK

[zeroduck]

I wish I had points. Have a sense of humor, kids.

Re:OK

[fractoid]

31 different flavours of AWESOME.
*thumbs up*

I don't buy this writer's "back story" one bit.

[GPL Apostate]

I don't buy his back-story. Not. At. All.

I've lived through the bad times of Windows/386 and ME, and the good times of NT 3.51 and 2K.

First off, he's just 'name dropping' Windows versions. Nobody who actively used NT 3.51 would ever have 'lived through' Windows ME. I know, because I 'lived' through NT 3.51 to 4.0, and from there to Windows 2000. The 'NT' line of Windows is what the grown-ups used, and it was intolerable to slip back into a low-end DOS-based kludge. NT wasn't wonderful by any stretch of the imagination, in fact 4.0 was a step back from 3.51 in a number of core areas.

This guy sounds right from the start like somebody rattling off a 'history of Microsoft' fable.

Re:I don't buy this writer's "back story" one bit.

[bcoff12]

A lot of folks using NT 4 and 2000 were supporting Win95 etc...

Re:I don't buy this writer's "back story" one bit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah, they should have done what I did, explain that Win9x was a "toy" operating system for home computers and games and insist they replace it with NT4/2K.

Everyone was happy after that.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't even have to look at the journal he was pointing too. That raving lunatic style shines through in everything he writes, regardless of the name attached to it.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[Techman83]

Running dual screen quite peachy here. Intrigued to see how much easier 7.10 will be compared to 7.04. As with every update I've installed, things just seem easier and easier!

Is it me or is this thread

[Ch40sC0d3]

full of a bunch of people that work for microsoft. I install 7.10 last night and it was really good. No problems at all. Compiz-Fusion turned on defualt. Wireless network works great! no problems at all. zero problems. 3 click for wine to install. Every problem listed in this thread is not even true in 7.10 Networking is easyer then windows and its faster. I had all my windows programs running in wine with in minutes. Not a single driver or hardware problem and the auto updater works so much better then windows its sad. Infact it works over all so much better then windows its very sad.

Excuse for a bit on command line interfaces

[dbIII]

The "average" end user is not going to take a hard drive out of a dead machine and put in a new one. Whever does it is going to see the physical hardware in the cases and most likely see "ati" or "nvidia" written on the graphics card no matter what brand the entire card is.

As for the CLI (command line interfaces) objections - registry or CLI, they are both hard for new users. But now we get to the bit that really puts things in context:

On rare occasion, such as the one you listed here, there will be an absolute need to use the CLI in Linux

The above poster appears to have not grasped the idea that sometimes it's better to communicate by writing than to point at pictures. A mixed interface is very useful - GUI only is very limiting as in the imaginary example of a word processor with only an on screen keyboard and mouse pointer to click on it as the input device. The GUI is limited to the items the designer put in with a lot of effort - a decent command line shell can pipe things from one command to the next for a lot of flexability. How much space is used in all directories with names starting with "f"? Where's the document that mentions Mr Whatsit and Mr Whosit by name? Trivial questions to answer from the command line but a lot of effort to make GUIs to cover even a small number of possible cases. Even Xorg.conf has so many options in it that the GUI to modify more than the usual bits done by current GUIs would be even more unweildy than powerstrip on windows has to be to cover so many options. Then we get to the experience of many long term windows and early mac users - they grey menu option that you should be able to get to but the GUI designer missed something so you cannot use it in certain conditions where you should. GUIs are quick and easy ways for the user to select stuff but have to work by limiting options a bit more than if the application can parse text.

It's a different system that does things differently - and using a command line shell and text editor is part of that just as "C:" the registry hive and even the find tool is part of MS Windows.

Re:Excuse for a bit on command line interfaces

[lnjasdpppun]

How much space is used in all directories with names starting with "f"?

Windows:
Select those directories, right click one of them and select Properties.

*nix:
magically know that 'du --max-depth=1 f*' is the command i want

Where's the document that mentions Mr Whatsit and Mr Whosit by name?

Windows:
Right click on your hard drive in explorer, select search. This brings up a gui with a field clearly labeled "A word of phrase in the file", enter Mr Whatsis there and click the Search button

*nix:
magically know that 'find -path / * -e 'grep -H "Mr Whatsit" {}' ' is the command i want

I'm actually not sure those *nix commands will work (actually I think the second ones syntax is guaranteed to be wrong) but that would be my starting point if I had to do either of those tasks on a *nix box. The windows work for sure and I could explain them over a phone in about 5 seconds to my mum. The command line has a big learning curve, you can do things easily once you've done them before and remembered the command name and exact syntax to use but the initial learning period can be a huge problem.

Re:Excuse for a bit on command line interfaces

[dbIII]

How much space is used in all directories with names starting with "f"?

Windows:

Select those directories, right click one of them and select Properties

You have to find the things first, select them and individually choose to display the details - that's the very time consuming thing to do with a GUI if they are spread all over the disk or you have a non-trivial number of answers to the query. When you have a string of tasks dependant on other tasks there are better ways and you can do it on the command line in windows with the right tools too. The *nix example would also have to find the files first and pipe them to "du -s" so would look a bit more complex - but sometimes you save a lot of time by writing instead of pointing at pictures.

The other example forgot about the word AND which makes it a bit harder to do the normal GUI search as would other operators but I think google desktop handles it better than the default - bad example since I'm making the point of dependant tasks. Doing one task and then another can be time consuming in a GUI instead of a command line.

Piping one command to the next gives more more flexability than you can easily put in a GUI - that is my point. The idea (expressed by others but things here are leaning that way) that an environment has "failed" as soon as the user ends up on the command line is something I disagree with. The thing is useful.

Drivers

[leoxx]

What hardware in particular?

I'd like to encourage anyone and everyone who has a piece of hardware not supported by Linux to report it to the LinuxDriverProject.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Matey-O]

Other stuff, like year long uptime and file systems that just work have been around for a decade.

You'll not be getting year long uptimes in Ubuntu...they spend WAAAY too much time mucking about with the kernel. (More than I like to see...which is why my servers run Debian.)

Differences in release methodology

[ILongForDarkness]

Linux favors rapid releases, why not the developer version is available and has feature x, why can't I have it now (actually you can ;)). This is easy to do in free software, your not asking much of the end user (especially in Ubuntu), click the update button wait 20 minutes done.

MS has a different philosophy, and so has to go in larger steps. They need to market their software, they need to convince users to shell out money for it, they need to convince oems to pre-install it, and negotiate the pricing structure. All this leads to larger more substantial releases. Completely reworked GUI's, privilege schemes, filesystems etc. I'm sorry going from KDE 3.5.7 to 3.5.8 doesn't strike me as a major upgrade. Similarly with the kernel changes. I upgraded my Kubuntu from 7.4 to 7.10 and didn't notice a difference.

Now I didn't spend time reading up of a bunch of forums for some of the more obscure features, I honestly don't care if I can turn my multiple desktops into a spinning Rubix cube, I only use the one desktop anyways, I can't stand having more than 4 things open at once, and can't be bothered to remember which desktop I opened what in.

Anyways, MS has to make major changes to convince people to upgrade, or at least make people think they got their moneys worth. Unfortunately, major changes screw over the end users that have spend 5 years learning keyboard shortcuts, or what have you. Stability issues will crop up and might take a year or so to get worked out.

Re:"The greeter application appears to be crashing

[cooley]

As for upgrades - my philosophy is to treat the upgrade process with the same respect as typing "sudo rm -rf /" Well thanks for nothing man, I typed that and I don't think it upgraded anything. Dang, it did free up a lot of diskspace though! Let's see it looks like my free space is at uh wait noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[T-Bone-T]

I hear you. It was quite a shock when the login prompt appeared on my secondary monitor instead of my laptop. I simply went to the screen settings and changed the default screen. Apparently, that was too easy. It refuses to make my laptop screen the primary monitor.

I think I'll wait...

[ppanon]

for Heroic Human.

Um, Holy Heron? Hungry Hippopotamus? Hentai Hamster?

Re:I think I'll wait...

[fractoid]

Horny Heffalump. Hands down.

Re:I think I'll wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm holding out for Bukkake Budgie.

Err, UAC

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, now you have me doing it. It's UAC, not UAE.
I should've realized sooner that it didn't sound right.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[HermMunster]

That's an old video. There are many more newer ones that are much more impressive.

Give it a rest, alright?

[pdusen]

Yes, Slashdot, we all know you like Ubuntu. Meanwhile, I still don't have a video driver. So I'll just stick with what works for the moment, thank you.

99% of objections to Vista are resolved by

[apunahasapeemapetala]

running TweakUAC, which allows one to continue operating UAC in quiet mode...

"In such a mode, you keep all the positive effects of UAC, such as Internet Explorer operating in the protected mode, applications starting without the administrative privileges by default, etc. The only thing that gets changed is that you will no longer see the infamous "Windows needs your permission to continue" messages whenever you attempt to make a change to your Vista configuration, or when you run a program that needs administrative rights."

Great! However, Vista didn't like being the server for my Synergy setup with Gutsy on the 2nd monitor. Once I made Gutsy the synergy server it was much more well behaved. Really, it's hard not to have both a Gutsy and a Vista box. They're both pretty fresh.

Re:99% of objections to Vista are resolved by

[sqrt(2)]

Or just turn it off all together. Everyone here on slashdot is smart enough to use a computer without needing the protection of UAC. It's not in XP and despite never having used a virus scanner or security software I've never had any problems.

The only security software you need for Windows is Firefox and a brain.

New Laptop, replaced Vista with Ubuntu 7.10

[LionMage]

I picked up an HP laptop recently (one of the "Verve special edition" laptops), and it came preinstalled with Vista. Unlike some other craptastic laptops I've tried out (and in particular, one Acer laptop I tried out and returned after a week due to unsupported wireless in Linux and bad keyboard), this thing actually ran Vista almost decently. Still too long of a wait to boot -- XP boot times seem far faster to me -- but it was usable.

Problem is, the laptop didn't come with any sort of optical media for Vista. HP puts a partition on the hard drive that is there to allow the user to recover and restore, and they provide software in Vista to burn 2 restore DVDs "just in case." I burned the restore discs and hoped for the best... But as it turns out, Vista's flavor of NTFS doesn't resize properly in GParted (either refuses to resize, or resizes and then becomes unbootable without volume repair). Without genuine Vista discs, I was unable to do any repairs after an abortive attempt to resize the Vista partition, soooo...

I turned the laptop over to the tender mercies of the Ubuntu 7.10 installer off of the Gutsy DVD. Amazingly, sound and networking worked with nary a hiccup, suspend and resume work the way they should, and even the media keys across the top of the keyboard do what you'd expect them to. About the only thing I'm missing support for right now is the SD card reader. (Chipset seems to be unsupported, will have to research.) There's a built-in webcam and stereo microphones in the lid, and I'm going to experiment with them to see if I can get them to work, but it's not a major priority for me.

I would have preferred to keep Vista around -- not because I really like Vista (as I work with XP daily at the office, and Vista really doesn't work the way I think Windows "ought" to), but because theoretically there might be some games or the random app that might not work right / be available under Linux. But this morning, as I started throwing more and more packages on the laptop, I started to realize that maybe this is a blessing in disguise. By Vista not wanting to share and play nicely, I've been forced to decide between Vista and Ubuntu. It wasn't even much of a choice.

Still, it would've been nice to keep Vista around in a small partition, just as a security blanket. But if I can get WoW working under Wine (and reports say that it should actually run pretty well, providing my graphics adapter can keep up), it'd be tough to say just what I'd really need Vista for.

troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone can see that the 'other' journal you're linking to is your handiwork. I didn't know Slashdot rewarded sock puppets and trolls with +2 posting bonuses.

meh

[TheSpengo]

You know, I tried Vista twice (my school subscribes to MSDNAA so I got it for free) and both times I experienced so many bugs, program crashes, and severe lack of drivers that both times I went back to XP for my windows partition. The second time I tried it was this August. I figured that by then MS would have fixed all the major problems I had experienced on release. Needless to say I was severely disappointed. Even so, I don't really see what everyone thinks is so great about Ubuntu either. It seems to me to be the "Vista" of Linux distros. Debian will always remain my one true love. :)

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[neomunk]

The magical word you're looking for is 'virtualization'.

Google it and be well citizen.

Even ubuntu is for engineers/geeks

[javapada1]

I've used windows since 3.1 and also I've used Ubuntu, Fedora/Redhat and Mandrake. Linux desktop is easier to use now, however the problem with it are the installers. When I first started to use Linux for my Java development, it took me some time to know that you should chmod the .bin installers first. If you are using windows, you would not have that trouble and you would easily conclude that Linux is too hard. I think if the installers are improved then Linux desktop will be easier if not equal to windows. For example, install printer driver.. #printer_driver.rpm or #printer_driver.bin

Re:Even ubuntu is for engineers/geeks

[Almahtar]

The idea of standalone executable installers is for engineers/geeks, if you ask me. I'd rather just select my program from a package list, hit "apply", and let it install on its own.

I guess I'm in the minority here

[Call Me Black Cloud]

I have Vista 64 installed on my PC. Granted, I'm running on pretty nice hardware but I like Vista. It hasn't given me any grief, it's not slow at all, Windows Live Mail (not Windows Mail) is nicer than Thunderbird (which I used for the past 2+ years), and I can play games like Bioshock when I'm not editing videos. The XP machines play nicely with the Vista machines on the network, no issues there. There's no Flash for 64-bit IE but that's not necessarily a bad thing...

mod parent down, replying to self

[Anonymous Coward]

it must have taken a lot of will power to actually write out "linux" to make it seem as if you werent replying to yourself

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[3p1ph4ny]

Really? I thought it was because they put out an update every 6 months, which requires a reboot ;)

Re:Another one one one one one

[weirdcrashingnoises]

or maybe he fed a pondering linux user with success.

Simplicity

[nobodymk2]

Some people like it simple. Most users of the Internet aren't heavy users, so therefore most people don't bother with technical stuff. In terms of their taste for browsing the internet, they like it simple. I deleted my rant about Microsoft security and compatibly before I submitted the comment, but perhaps it is best to have more security than necessary. Most people aren't smart enough to defend themselves against viruses, spyware, and identity theft, and therefore Vista has a valid point: don't let the user have a choice whether to defend themselves or not. Statistically, only 15% of internet users are "heavy users".

Re:Simplicity

[WoollyMittens]

Wasn't it Vista that pops up "Are you sure" for every potentially risky action, thus moving the burden of security from the OS to the user.

Still Not Working

[sqrt(2)]

I just tried out Ubuntu 7.10 on a laptop that was running Vista.

Install was quick and without error but boot time after installation was about 10 minutes, after that first one it was still 5-6. The OS would never shut down at all. Ever. After telling it to shut down it flashes a couple glitchy, corrupted command line screens and then goes black, but it was still on with the processor chugging away (making a LOT of heat). I have no idea what it is doing during that time. Sharing files with the other computers on my network still didn't work. The new ATI linux driver got Compiz running without XGL (hurray! finally...), but my 2d performance was shot to hell, scrolling this slashdot page showed horrible lag and tearing. That's where I got fed up with it and went back to windows.

I put Vista back on there, which works great and I've been really happy with it (seems like I'm the only one on Slashdot who is). Fast, stable, and everything works.

See you again with 8.04

Re:Still Not Working

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop using ATI cards. No, seriously. ATI's Linux support has been getting better, but it's still horrible compared to Intel or Nvidia's. Most of your problems are probably due to that; the filesharing problem is probably just because you don't know how to set it up correctly. (doing it properly on Windows isn't simple, either, mind you -- you only know how to do it because you learned over many years of using Windows)

Re:Still Not Working

[sqrt(2)]

Well, that's not really an option RIGHT NOW. I have a lot of money already invested in my current hardware, and I need something that works with my current configurations. Compatibility with Linux is probably the last feature I consider when making hardware decisions. What I do consider is price, stability, performance (in that order). Everything else really doesn't even register at all. I'm not going to buy new hardware just to be able to use a free OS that still isn't as good as what I currently have. Wireless didn't work either, but I'm sure you'll just blame Broadcom. Vista got it working somehow, after the first boot, with zero configuration. Networking and filesharing took ZERO configuration with Vista between other vista machines and XP. The only thing that took a little bit of time was mapping a few network drives but that was just a couple clicks in explorer.

Saying, "Buy new hardware" really isn't a great strategy when you're trying to convince people to change their OS.

150 day uptime.

[Erris]

You'll not be getting year long uptimes in Ubuntu...

The author of the fine article claims to have gotten 150 days out of his Frankenstein "server". I admit to being impressed and sometimes you can learn things by reading.

Re:150 day uptime.

[Matey-O]

You can get very VERY long uptimes out of Linux....just not Ubuntu if you plan on leaning on them to keep your system up to date. Debian (and others) tend to leave the kernel alone, for the most part. Ubuntu's philosophy is to sacrifice uptime to include more features quicker....good for single user home purposes...bad for server implementations.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[ozmanjusri]

Just install Virtualbox. It's Open Source, and dead easy to use. You can even move your existing Windows install to the virtual one

Try again

[The Monster]

I do not thin' this works like you thin' it works:

2) type "sudo eth0 192.168.0.1" -> hit enter

sudo: eth0: command not found

The principal advantages of a menu system: the choices available to the user are constrained, the menus provide reminders of how things are done. The CLI provides much more power, but the user must remember the commands to run, or take notes. The big win for the CLI is when you can send a text message to your Aunt Tillie's cell phone (or an email to the laptop of your cousin's who's going over for dinner tonight) showing her how to spell the command correctly ("sue-dew? Suede oh?...")

Re:Try again

[LingNoi]

I typed this comment and then 15 minutes later realised I have missed out ipconfig. That line should be.

2) Type "sudo ipconfig eth0 192.168.0.1" -> hit enter.

Wow - didn't see that result coming

[Anonymous Coward]

Who could believe linux would win a review against a MSFT product on slashdot.

You people bitch too much

[js92647]

Reading over all the comments I see nothing but cry babies. Jesus fucking christ I thought Slashdot was full of old timers, not a bunch of rebellious teenagers.

It's just another lame article about how Vista sucks and Linux will continue to thrive. So what? I don't run Vista, and I don't plan to. I run a modified version of XP that did a few things which Microsoft should have. Shit actually works. But what about Ubuntu?

I had an easy time installing it, it's nice and I use it. I've been using Linux distros, but nothing this fancy (I used to have Debian and RH). I am still struggling trying to figure out why it won't recognize some of the resolutions of my GeForce 6800 (using sudo to change it doesn't really help the situation), and it's causing the UI rendering to be slow, even a simple thing like dragging the window around.

Either way I don't see why articles like these have to cause so much drama. One of the snags in the slow process of "migrating" to Linux simply couldn't be that it's users, like yourselves, are so fucking elitist. No, that's impossible. I guess you picked it up from your overlord, Linus.

Not Easy, 90% Only See Windoze.

[Erris]

You see what you want to see.

Major vendors would have to offer choices for that to be true. They don't, as the US Government once observed, because of the M$ monopoly. Quit pretending people have choices and get a chance to make comparisons.

Short of actually installing and using an OS, you have YouTube and opinion pieces from trade magazines. With M$'s advertising budget, the trade mags are just a little slanted in their coverage. Not even Slashdot cares about people's software freedom.

Everybody should use the system they like and stop preaching and advocating.

If you don't like Ubuntu or comparison articles and opinions one way or the other, you should go find an article you like and comment there. You might actually know something about the subject and look less like a hypocrite who's trying to preach atheism in a church. Freedom is worth advocating and I'm going to continue to tell people who read comparison articles that Windows will never do what users want because it's not free.

Re:Not Easy, 90% Only See Windoze.

[Khuffie]

I would consider both Dell and Apple to be major venders, and both offer an alternative to Windows. Also, I am unaware of a company with an abbreviation of M DOLLAR SIGN that makes an OS. Could I have possibility missed it?

LEAVE _____ ALONE!

[martin-boundary]

How friggin dare anyone out there make fun of ______ after all the system has been through. It lost its floppy drivers, went through a RAM upgrade. It had ____ friggin crashes. Its user turned out to be a gamer, a music downloader, and now it's going through a RIAA lawsuit. All you people care about is software and sending email off of it. IT'S A COMPUTER SYSTEM! What you don't realize is that ____ is making you all this money and all you do is write a bunch of crap about it. It hasn't run properly in years. The new version is called ____ for a reason because all you people want is MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE. LEAVE IT ALONE! You are lucky it even boots up for you BASTARDS! LEEEAVE ______ ALLLLLONE! ..Please. John C Dvorak talked about professionalism and said if _____ was a professional system, it would've displayed a dialog no matter what. Speaking of professionalism, when is it professional to publically bash some OS that is going through a hard time. Leave _______ Alone Please . Leave ______ alone right now .I mean it. Anyone that has a problem with it you deal with me, because _____ is not well right now. leave it alone.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[penix1]

Thanks for the info on virtualbox. I didn't know it existed. I'm installing it now and seeing how well it stacks up to vmware.

On and on and on

[algoa456]

Week after week, month after month, year after year we get stories of how much better one or other incarnation of Linux is on your PC than Windows x.x. And yet MisFit a.k.a Microsoft thunders on still doing business, still the standard across the globe.

Fact is for most people, even many geeks, operating systems are yesterday's news unless you are a keen hacker. I use operating systems because they support applications I need. Windows supports most applications so I use it. Rarely do I have to fire up a Linux and when I do it is because I need a specific app (usally OS) not available on XP. Vista, I'll get round to that sometime.

Re:Bundling

[Nevyn]

Windows has a monopoly, Ubuntu doesn't. Ubuntu don't "own" the office suite they bundle, in fact you have the exact same rights to it as they do.

If MS lost it's monopoly, or bundled open-office, noone would have a problem.

How to advocate free software

[Anonymous Coward]

twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.

• As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
• Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
• A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
• Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
• Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
• Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
• Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
• Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
• Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
• There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.

From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advocacy

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps

[Anonymous Coward]

I will gently point at Exhibit A - Dell selling Ubuntu on some notebooks and desktops. Exhibit B not quite ready for public unveiling - Hp (likely in reaction to Dell's move). Exhibit C - Acer jumping up and down and shouting look at me, look at me. Beyond the positive moves in the desktop arena, all mainstream vendors have been offering Linux in the server room for years.

Posted from a Dell 1505, shipped from the factory with 7.04, happily upgraded to 7.10... and it suspends/resumes, hibernates, connects to wifi, roams between networks, and "just works" very nicely thank you very much.

w00t

[Paul_Hindt]

Ubuntu is doing the right thing in a lot of ways...although I don't think that they should be adopting all the fancy 3D effects right now. I am glad that the flashy effects are only optional in Ubuntu, as opposed to in Vista where its all flash all the time. Mac OSX is much more toned down in the effects department, although when I use a Mac or other Apple products, I feel that I am being forced to do things in the Mac way.

Just throwing one more stick on the fire

[caller9]

Games!

The tides would probably turn quite a bit if the 360 would play games with a keyboard/mouse setup. I would plant a 360 on my desk and kick it on for gaming, no problem. Install Ubuntu and be done with windows.

I just can't stand aiming with my thumbs!

Gutsy: not for n00bs - yet.

[dynamik]

I'm uber keen to move to linux, and so I tried both flavours of gutsy (32 and 64). Being a *nix n00b, I found quite a few unacceptable hurdles imo. * The installer hangs when 'updating sources'. wtf? * No soundblaster x-fi support. * Flash plugin 'quirks' .. both adobe and gnash, 32 and 64 had some kind of compatibility problems. * ATI video card support lacking. Long story short, Vista still pwns for hardware/software support and simple out-of-the-box ease of use. Let's put it another way - if you have to open a shell/compiler - Gutsy isn't even close to Vista.

Ubuntu won out based on price

[weighn]

Ubuntu won out based on price more than anything. She was already using Firefox / OpenOffice / Gaim so for her the differences were pretty nominal. this should be the beginning and end of the argument - no need to resort to sensationalism re. deactivation of Vista, Vista being nagware, etc.

Since all this activation crap has come so far for M$, how many of you are now doing sys rebuilds for family/friends/colleagues and installing Ubuntu? It does what any casual user wants for nix (as in free) :-)

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[bit01]

Actually, I often recognise twitter's posts by the bigoted comments attached to them.

Try to get your head around the fact that M$ marketing propaganda is not the only point of view. Twitter's view is just as legitimate as anything that comes out of M$ marketing.

---

Paid marketers are the worst zealots.

Defeat in Detail

[turing_m]

"She was already using Firefox / OpenOffice / Gaim so for her the differences were pretty nominal."

And that's the key. Switching operating systems is a big deal if it means switching your entire personal software collection at once, and that's what a lot of people try to do and fail. They switch, get culture shock, and retreat back to XP.

If you can figure out which applications you use and then convert yourself to a FOSS program, one by one, then by the time you have finished you can install Ubuntu Gutsy and the rest of your problems will be restricted to driver issues. I don't know why I didn't think of doing it like that earlier, it seems so obvious now.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have an ATI card, wait until you have a free weekend to make the jump. Dual screen ATI simply doesn't work well.

So does this mean...

[StarReaver]

20xx is the year of the Linux desktop?

Gutsy has a lot of problems...

[NightCreature]

Gutsy has a lot of problems... It's not ready for prime time. I'm having problems with wireless... It works, but it's not as stable as Feisty 7.04... Hopefully they'll iron it out by the lts release of 8.04 Hardy Heron

Things change fast - more out there than expected?

[zooblethorpe]

Unfortunately in some industries (I work in public - i.e. government - healthcare) there really isn't any competition for X vendor. I'd be interested in hearing your views on how to deal with that type of situation, as it is probably all too common and I imagine that in the aforesaid cases, the vendor would be quite happy to "call your bluff" so to speak. I'm sure ours isn't the only industry where there isn't a lot of competition (3D modelling comes to mind - is there a Linux version of Maya or Lightwave?)

Maya already runs on Linux, at least according to the Wikipedia page and Maya's own product page (look toward the bottom for a list of OSes). Meanwhile, LightWave's engine has apparently been ported to Linux, suggesting that a full version might not be too far off.

I'm not trying to pooh-pooh your situation at all. I'm a Japanese-English translator, so I think I can sympathize -- there's pitifully little in the FOSS arena (or even just the commercial-but-Linux-compatible arena) that does what I need it to. I just want to point out that the software world is changing extraordinarily quickly. Look around, you might be surprised what you find. And if you really can't find anything that fits your bill, give it a year or two and look again.

Cheers,

Re:Another one??

[bit01]

Nope, nothing to do with him/her. Just an interested bystander. You on the other hand...

---

It's market failure whenever any one player has more than 50% of the market power.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[porl]

actually you are both wrong. you only need to reboot (yes, even *after* a complete dist-upgrade) if you want to use the updated kernel. i have a few times now needed to keep working on something after a dist-upgrade finished and actually forgot that i had done the upgrade. everything kept working for weeks and in fact it has been power problems at home that made me restart them eventually.

i have even upgraded an old debian sarge server to ubuntu feisty just by changing the apt repositories. i wouldn't recommend this to anyone, but i was just curious. turns out it worked flawlessly. i have a radius server running here at work with an uptime of 135 days. it is running on an old celeron 450mhz box that used to be used as a student workstation when i was a student here in 1999.

i certainly have no doubts that ubuntu can handle 1yr+ uptimes. i say the same for almost any linux distro (other than ones that are deliberately always on the 'bleeding edge' i suppose, but that isn't the point for them.

porl

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[remitaylor]

Looks like others have replied (probably with the same message) but ... this works with Gutsy, out of the friggin box, just like Windows. By which I mean:
1) install & run
2) open the display dialog and enable the second monitor

DONE!

I was *so* excited for the new X config GUI that ships with Gutsy - and it made things just as easy as I'd hoped.

Now ... it's not 100%, and here's why ... if you want all the sweet Compiz Fusion effects, you might need to use TwinView for your dual monitors, instead of whatever the dialog sets you up with. *NO* this does not mean you need to edit config files ... you can configure it using the nvidia settings dialog (all assuming you have a nvidia card, because this is what I had to do).

NOTE: you may say that's more work than Windows ... but it's not. It's the same amount of work to get to dual monitors - Windows doesn't have the sweet effects. If it did, there's a good chance you'd need to configure them.

For the first time, for me, it was ridiculously easy to setup:
* Dual Monitors
* Effects (previously using Beryl - now Compiz Fusion) :)

Windows security = install FF and a brain

[zooblethorpe]

The only security software you need for Windows is Firefox and a brain.

Okay, so I've installed Firefox -- check -- but where do I put the brain thingy? The 3.5" drive bays are too small. Oo, wait, it looks like it might fit right there next to the vid

!:@(#)${% :^|&:*& };: ... NO CARRIER

I'm with you on all the above

[MikShapi]

I've made the switch to Vista too, and my conclusions are similar to yours.
It doesn't go slow, given its fed 50$ more worth of RAM than XP would need (50$, big whoop), stuff is a bit different which took me the better part of a week to get used to, IMHO in most cases for the better, giving capability above what XP used to give (tablet features, power profiles, built-in process monitoring, excellent prog-files/start-menu search, built into the start menu ala katapult etc).

I'm a UNIX sysadmin by trade (I run windows on my lappie because I need OneNote), and I can't figure out all the idiots who bash UAC either. It's a security model for crying out loud. It's good. A hell of a lot better than not having one. Don't like it? Disable it and do everything as root. It's your bloody funeral. It breaks your shit? Bitch to the idiot who wrote software that saves files and reg data outside where you are supposed to stray as a user.
My KDE desktop in the office bugs me about root-requiring changes by asking me for a password in exactly the same manner.

Explorer popups? Don't use explorer. Use firefox, like you would on Ubuntu.

Bottom line - Vista has some quirks, as did everything before it, all versions and flavours of linux not excluded.

Your point is smack on, regarding these opinion articles which find the learning curve for a linux desktop preferable to the learning curve of a slightly tweaked windows interface.

It's just a mountain of hyperbole, some odd bits of software improperly written to stray outside your permission space that need coaxing, upgrading, running as root or replacing, and generally more sheer anti-microsoft sentiment than their products really warrant.

Ubuntu Version Numbers = Year and Month of Release

[remitaylor]

if the other people who replied didn't mention ... it's 7.10, not 7.1 because they're simply release dates. 7.10 == October 2007. 7.04 == Feisty Fawn == April 2007.

But you're right - Gutsy added a lot. But so did Feisty. And Edgy. And Dapper. And ...

just so you know :)

Cygwin -- the cure for the common cmd

[patio11]

I use cygwin and/or SSH for this purpose. It has 100% cured me of my desire to keep an Ubuntu live CD around "just in case". (I have Dapper Drake happily chugging along on a pair of VPSes which I could use if I suddenly had an urgent need to do some scripting that, for whatever reason, didn't work in Cygwin.)

Incidentally: Vista has some issues with Cygwin. For example, "cp foo.txt someDir" will sometimes result in someDir/foo.txt being not writeable to the user who was running Cygwin, for reasons which are not entirely clear to me. Happily, you can fix this the same way you fix stupidly obtuse permissions issues on a Linux system -- chmod.

no, this story WAS worth it...

[soporific16]

... it is the final straw! I have read soooo many tales of a better computer experience with a linux OS that i've finally started on the path to having kubuntu installed with my new resolve to spend a definite amount of time using it. Yes, it was this story. Be proud! I was going to wait until my rage against Windows was incandescent, but why wait till then? I will still probably use Windows XP for years to come but no way am i going near Vista. So i better get my hands wet with linux, hey. It will also be better for my karma if i switch to linux and open source programs. I haven't purchased a piece of software for over 10 years now and no matter how much of a communist you are, you still get the feelings of guilt of not letting a simple legal fiction (ie proprietory software) get in the way of using all the wonderful programs that can be got from emule. These feeling come every now and then. About twice a year. If that!

From mandatory Vista to a Macbook

[WoollyMittens]

I recognize a lot of the frustrations the author must have had. I was perfectly at home with all versions of windows from 95 to XP. But then the new laptops arrived at work. I had an Asus F3J laptop running XP before. The only change on the new one was that it was an incrememntal update to F3S. 2GB instead of 1, Core 2 Duo instead of Core Duo, that sort of thing. Oh yeah... and it only runs Vista. There's no drivers for XP anywhere to be found. I was used to photoshop documents loading in half a minute, now it's three. I had to turn the graphics on my Battlefield 2 game down from high to medium, for it to be playable. And worse of all, the explorer thinks my web-images folders are photos that need star-ratings instead of file-size. So instead of re-learning windows I got a macbook pro and am running OSX on it as well as XP. It took me maybe one day of discomfort to switch and it was really an eye-opener how smooth everything works somehow. I expect learning Ubuntu or OSX is easier than re-learning Windows.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, sockpuppets, tough guy insulting bluster, bullshit accusations, that delightful petulant tone... and someone actually modded you up. Slashdot is more broken every day.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Macthorpe]

No, really. You're the same person.

Give up.

It's a bad review.

[mcrbids]

You're pondering how fed up you are with the success of linux.

Sorry, I'm going to step in, here. Didja bother to read the article? Cause like, he talks about how he's got 7 computers right now running in his home, and he refers to them as "boxes", like "See that Ubunto 7.10 box over there?".

Sorry.

Anybody who uses the term "box" to refer to a computer is not a good source for real-world usability. Such a person is hopelessly too nerdy to offer any kind of view on what the "average" user would want or need. Did you notice that he has more *nix "boxes" running than Windows, anyway?

Do nerds typically like Linux? It's like asking if the Sun typically rises in the east or if men typically want to have sex with women. It's a non-starter. If you want to see how Linux is doing, look for reviews that don't use the word "box" and use words like "CPU" and "Hard Drive" interchangeably.

Then you're getting a review from OUTSIDE the nerd community...

Re:It's a bad review.

[freeweed]

Anybody who uses the term "box" to refer to a computer is not a good source for real-world usability.

Sorry, but that's just plain stupid. My senior-citizen-age parents call the computer the "box". It's just about the most non-technical term ever invented for computers. They have no idea what a CPU, hard drive, or anything else is. To them, there's the "screen", the "keyboard", the "mouse", and the "box".

If the guy said "boxen", maybe you'd have a point. Maybe "tower". The fact that he runs 7 computers at home puts him a bit beyond Joe Sixpack. The fact that he actually KNOWS WHICH OS IS ON THEM, sure.

But "box"? Half the non-technical people I know call it that.

Re:It's a bad review.

[sumdumass]

Well obviously, you don't know any non nerd- non geek people. They joyfully call the computer tower "the modem" or "the CPU" and refer to the monitor as a screen, pannel, or TV. They also call installing anything "downloading" and stare at you like your a moron when you ask where they "downloaded it from" while attempting to troubleshoot why they couldn't get it working as they think it should. I have one guy who purchased office 2007 because he didn't know how to use office 2000 and was told that it is so much easier- that is was hard not to produce great looking works in it. I had to find a diplomatic way to tell him he didn't "download it wrong", just like with office 2000, you need to spend some time learning how to do things with it.

And I agree, it is just plain stupid to discount an article over the use of the word "box" to describe a "modem" err tower. Anyone in that shape of mental aptitude over a computer will agree with anything someone tells them. I just hope the GP doesn't skip out on doing something enjoyable just because a lot of nerds are doing it too. I mean, what if he stumbled on a site describing nerds having sex, would he ignore all the claims or enjoyment and refuse to try it out? Or how about frozen chocolate covered bananas? Would it be proper to never taste those if nerds agreed they were great?

Anyways, I think I might be throwing too much sarcasm into this post. I'm not attempting to offend you. He is however criticizing something that average people don't do or won't do successfully (installing a different operating systems) as not being written so that average people can understand. If he does this stuff, I think he just has to admit that he isn't average and might have a little nerd or geek in him. (and I'm not talking about a midget with glasses)

Re:It's a bad review.

[Bob-taro]

If the guy said "boxen", maybe you'd have a point. Maybe "tower". The fact that he runs 7 computers at home puts him a bit beyond Joe Sixpack.

At least it puts him beyond Joe Sixbox.

Re:If you dont' want to wipe your system..

[Technician]

I'd rather have a small violation of a non-legit codec then to have this ginormous company that was convicted of illegal monopolistic predatory practices telling me what I can and can't do with my computer.

Download the ISO. Burn it to a CD. Boot the CD and wait for it to eject. Remove the CD and load a DVD. Enjoy. When done, eject the DVD and select "Exit". This entire operation leaves no trace or record on your hard drive.

http://geexbox.org/en/downloads.html

With Vista taking forever to boot up, the CD boot is faster. If all I want to do is watch a movie, the CD boot is the best choice. The codec and player are not compliant with the DVD consortium which is a good thing. Put in the DVD and watch the movie instead of the FBI warning and "Don't steal this film".

I've got to agree...

[msimm]

I appreciate the point about time and I do think XP (Pro) is a fine desktop. But all the problems you point out can be said for any OS. Sometimes installs go haywire. It's bad luck.

I personally don't like Vista and all the annoyances that seem to get in the way of just using it. It can seem like the only really new features in it *are* the annoying features. Ubuntu (which I'm using now) has worked pretty much without a hitch. Still not what I'd call parent-proof, but far better a desktop then I'd expected it to be.

Again

[G-News.ch]

Another Vista sucks, Linux rocks article. We already knew that, where's the news about it? If you were to ask me, Vista can absolutely be ignored on Slashdot, at least until SP2.

Re:Again

[neminem]

Whereas in actuality... Vista sucks, and so does Linux. XP and OSX suck less, but they still suck too. From Microsoft, to Macintosh, to Lih-- lie-- lih-- lie... nux, Every computer crashes, 'cause every OS sucks.

I clicked 'upgrade' yesterday

[mrjb]

so I am on the Gibbon at this moment. Good thing I had saved my dualscreen xorg.conf prior to the upgrade- I needed it. The upgrade took a while, but went pretty much hassle-free other than the xorg.conf issue.

Still, my webcam still doesn't work out of the box and trying to install the drivers gives a compile error (config.h not found).
Any clues?

I'm no longer interested in recompiling the kernel as it breaks my ability to auto-install new kernel images.

I'm sorry, but Ubuntu is miles behind...

[Toreo asesino]

...when it comes to the corporate desktop. Wake me up when there's native support in Ubuntu desktop + server for something that covers 10% of what Windows Active Directory does.
For simple web-browsing, email, basic multimedia, and basic office functionality Ubunutu is right on the money. For big corps, it doesn't even come close.

You love Linux but Microsoft is king?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not being entirely honest; you don't love Linux. ...and Microsoft isn't "king", it's a dictator - that's why so many people dislike it.

Bah!

[Greyfox]

It's always been that way. You just never noticed before. UNIX gives you the tools to do what you want to do and tries to stay out of your way as much as possible. Microsoft enforces their vision of how they think you're work should flow. I was going to say that Apple also enforces their vision of how you should work, but really for the most part they don't. You can treat your Apple like a UNIX workstation with a very pretty window manager and no one will try to stop you. It feels very NeXTy if you do that. Maybe that's why I like it so much...

Microsoft could learn a thing or two from the UNIX world. Your tools should be small and well-crafted. They should not try to bludgeon you into submission and force you to do things the way they think you should do things. Unfortunately Microsoft is all about the bludgeoning and they have been for as long as I can remember. They bludgeon more now than they used to, though. No matter how you slice it, one thing is definitely true: It's fun to say "bludgeon."

Don't Insult Linux!

[an.echte.trilingue]

I bought a VW Golf TDI in 2002. Since that time, it has had electrical problems forcing it into the shop about every three months on average: It needs a new glow plug about once a year; there was a short in the computer that was causing the transmission to slip badly (that one took over a year for the mechanics to find); the motors that roll the windows up and down burned out, one after the other, about two months apart (this is a separate issue from the brackets that hold the window that broke, but that part has been recalled); the panel electronics just stopped working one day (bad soldering under the dashboard);...

I don't know much about cars, but I know that linux is way more reliable than a Golf.

Re:Ubuntu "getting out of your way"

[Chibi Merrow]

Ah yes... that good ol' Lunix security model we all know... and know. Now that Vista is the most stable and secure OS on the market, the MS haters just have to keep banging the drum about how bad Vista supposedly is.

Yes, the security of an OS no one uses is pretty good, since you can't hack something that's not running...

Seriously, though, a server running out-of-date software (your posted example) is eventually going to get borked regardless of operating system. Bad troll.

Slashdot "Paradigm" Shift...

[k-zed]

Kind of depressing how the Slashdot message poster crowd slowly transformed to being 90% Microsoft and Windows (and RIAA) fanboy reactionary assholes.

Few years ago, the comments for this kind of story would have been like "oh cool, yay us".
Now it's all "CLI is hard, i like teh games. What, open a terminal? YOU are what's all wrong with the linux crowd!"

What happened here? What's with all the lowest common denominator mentality? Will Slashdot end up being a generic, somewhat technology-focused news site for people to browse between two Excel sessions?
No thanks, to that.

Re:Slashdot "Paradigm" Shift...

[Anonymous Coward]

somewhat technology-focused news site for people to browse between two Excel sessions?

I was going to say you must be new here but then I saw your 5 digit id and so I must be new here. It's been like this all the time, no? Increased readership doesn't mean there are more nerds. It just means real people also visit (and post unfortunately).

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish that you would take your little pissing match somewhere else

I wish that you would fuck off and die. Can you do that for me? That would be great. Thanks!

Very immature at the moment

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the one feature I was really looking forward to, but I was very disappointed. It seems half finished. There are two X configuration tools, one to change the resolution and one to configure monitors and resolutions. The former isn't designed to work with multiple screens at all. The latter is buggy, saving incorrect values and limiting the choices to incorrect resolutions seemingly at random.

On top of that, the Compiz desktop effects don't work with the desktop switcher applet: you can't drag windows between desktops when desktop effects are turned on.

The impression is that the desktop work has concentrated on flashy, surface glitz instead of building a solid foundation.

My Vista experience

[biglig2]

I had occasion to rebuild my production system recently, so I upgraded it from XP to Vista, figuring I had to learn it some time. I actually found UAC not as bad as people make out. It's certainly irritating, but I could live with that because it finally makes it practical for a "power user" to run in a non-elevated account.
But, apart from that, I couldn't see anything that was an improvement. There's more eye-candy than XP, but since all the competitive OSes have better eye-candy than Vista, that's not a good thing to base a choice on. Look at http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsvista/aa906027.aspx and see what MS say are the improvements in Vista. Nothing there for me.
But ... the new networking UI is hateful. I was on a trip, so I had to keep changing to use different (non-SSID broadcasting) WiFi networks, and it was terrible. Endless pain. After three weeks I'd had enough and downgraded back to XP.
YMMV, but for me an upgrade is clearly not a good idea, because it means I'd be paying to make my machine prettier, but slightly less useful. Except I'm going to have to upgrade sooner or later, because Microsoft are going to force me to. Eventually they'll stop supplying XP to the OEMs, they'll start making software that doesn't work on XP, and so on.

And this is where Microsoft have really screwed up, because, you know what? If I can't use XP any more, I'm disinclined to replace it with a product from the people who are taking XP away from me.
Sure, there'll be switcher pain if I go with Leopard or Gibbon instead. Maybe less than going with Vista. But at least Microsoft get to share a tiny part of that pain.

Changed PCI bus

[Anonymous Coward]

changed AGP changed northbridge and southbridge and still worked in windows? It doesn't allow that sort of fugging around with the hardware. Add to that you'll definitely need to reregister your copy (if you can even do this, since MS get to decide whether you get an activation code, they can deny your OEM version no matter whether it is legally enforceable on a "original machine only" basis).

Windows doesn't allow changes at this level except when you install, when it uses BIOS calls and loads the drivers from disk (it doesn't read all the drivers in from the disk so it can change them on the fly). So you need the CD. But that's on the IDE on the other side of the northbridge and windows doesn't have the driver for the IDE or northbridge (which are on the CD), so you need to install from the CD to get the CD ready to install from...

Re:Changed PCI bus

[deniable]

I'll have some of what you're smoking, thanks. Are you just trolling? If not, I suggest you get a Resource Kit and read up on the boot sequence. You may also note that only one version I mentioned has WPA, so there is no 'registration' to repeat for the others.

You are making advertising on you little penguin

[Anonymous Coward]

You can advertise so much. We all know is nothing but a lie. You like your linux. Great use it for yourself but don't try to pretend me to use it. Yep I tried all of those redhats mandriva... Heck I even have one of those free ubuntu 64 bits they sent to my mailbox. Guess what. I haven't even installed it. Really I decided that I don't even have time to give it a try. Maybe in the future. Who knows.

After I have some time to patch all of it holes that appeared after the disc landed in my hands. So far the interface doesn't looks attractive and most of my software doesn't even work there. And honestly I do not have much time to be looking for/downloading/searching for new one. Yes that's correct. When you came with a true operating system let me know. Ahh and I won't waste my time with aggresive responses from linux fanboys pretending me to use their OS. I won't use it until you fix all of that.

Maybe If I have some time. Just maybe. After you fix all of that. Ouch unix has always being so much non friendly to the user.

Guess what. Even if your OS is better technologically than Windows (Something I don't consider to be the case since windows has evolved too). Well software cost is nothing but a part of all of the cost of the whole infrastructure. And that's what really matters. The whole cost.

For instance. Would you buy a very very cheap CPU that eats 5 times the energy a more expensive one and both perform at the same speed? I won't because in the long run It would cost more. The same goes for Operating Systems.

Windows OTOH...

[Joce640k]

Windows OTOH...knows when you connect a camera and pops up a wizard asking if you want to import all the photos.

If you say yes the wizard copies them to you "My pictures" folder.... and silently resizes them for you (makes them smaller) if it doesn't like the original size (for whatever reason).

PS: This is the same operating system which pops up dire warning dialogs about loss of quality if you try to rotate an image (using the backwards-labelled buttons on the image viewer).

Ubuntu Runs Better on My Laptop

[johnsie]

Ubuntu runs better on my laptop than Vista does. End of story. Bye bye Vista.

Ubuntu power button

[Anonymous Coward]

There isnt an option to disable it entirely (and there should be), but you can change it in System->Preferences->Power Management->General.

Just disable the popup...

[Joce640k]

Update Manager->Properties->"Display information about update progress"

You're welcome.

You shouldn't notice it...

[Joce640k]

The only way you'll notice it is if you have it set up to scan the entire disk when you switch on the machine. This thrashes the disk during the most vital few minutes of startup.

This used to be on by default, newer versions ask you during installation. I always turn it off (I don't think you gain much by enabling it).

ipconfig? IPCONFIG?

[FoamingToad]

Burn the MS-worshipping heretic!

ifconfig in Linuxland, surely, unless there's a subtlety in Ubuntu that I've missed?

F_T

Why i'm not going to Vista...

[Churla]

And this is pure selfishness.. I have certain games I play which can only support dual monitors if it's presented to the game/os as one wide monitor. This is called span view, you can set it up on most nVidia cards and it rules.

Microsoft decided they wanted more granular control over the display so now the new WDDM doesn't support Span view at all.

It's funny that out of XP 32, XP 64, and Vista (32/64) the best option to run all the software I need to is XP 32.

Unfortunately I am one of those people for whom a full move to *nix won't happen until the bulk of games I enjoy so much will run on it without me needing to take up "managing emulation/virtualization" as a hobby.

Re:ipconfig? IPCONFIG?

[LingNoi]

lol, I seem to be getting everything wrong today. Next time I'm going to test the commands I type.

me

[kurtis25]

I'm not an expert, I'm just an experienced windows user. When I switched to XP I couldn't stand the new control panel, I switched over to classic. I'm young and capable of change but I don't want it or need it. Linux seems to be at the point where they have a stable system and are realizing that people want stable and familiar interaction with the computer. They are crying out for something that doesn't change every week or when it changes there is a well tested well reasoned explanation for the change not "because it's pretty". I've played around with Ubuntu a lately on my laptop, When my wife sat down I had FF open so she didn't know anything had changed (she thought I had changed the skin) and had 100% the same experience. Which is the experience she needs to have, she can't bother to learn the new look of IE7 much less office 2007. I don't want to learn either I want the same old experience where I can type a short document and write an email. Linux is unwittingly gearing itself towards my wife and I since I am assured my experience won't change for the sake of change and things will work well. It needs to start working out of the box.

Re:me

[marcosdumay]

Linux is not stable. Linux implements changes and gives you the option to use them. Alternatively, you can keep doing everything the way you are used to.

That is important, because a system that doesn't change stagnates, and software that doesn't change stagnates very fast. Linux gets bleeding edge of UI design (directly from researches' ongoing works) and stable environments (that don't have visible changes for decadees) at the same time. But most people seem to like a middle grond more.

By your count

[Britz]

if Ubuntu isn't there yet, neither is Vista nor XP. Only because Apple tightly integrates their Ipod with their software and chooses not to release said software for Ubuntu (code should be portable already, since they release for OS 9, PowerPC, for OSX both PowerPC and i386 as well as Windows i386) you cant fault Ubuntu for that.

And any reverse engineered Ipod app that does not come from Apple has to fight an uphill battle, since Apple can change the protocol with each new gen and make it even harder for 3rd party apps. This is the case for all hardware developers.

If you take unwilling hardware developers out you are left with a MUCH easier to install AND use system than anything Microsoft ever came out with and will come out with for some time.

Re:By your count

[mad_clown]

And any reverse engineered Ipod app that does not come from Apple has to fight an uphill battle

Very true. But that means it's not "there" yet. Not offering easy use of the prevalent portable media device is a serious setback for an operating system that's purporting to be a good enough desktop to replace Windows. For me? Good enough. For you? Good enough. For my mom? Not so much.

For the record, I'm not blaming Ubuntu, necessarily. But as a total package, 3rd party apps included, Ubuntu isn't there yet.

I'm not sure that Vista is there yet either, by the way. It looks like a lot of people seem to agree.

Troll? Try fucking insightful

[Overzeetop]

I ended up just buying a new card after several hours of trying to get a wireless network card to work in my daughter's laptop. All this "sudo apt-get-install foobar" is great if you know what it is you need and where it is, but I have yet to figure out how to use any of it, and I've been doing command line in DOS/Apple environments since '79. Mostly because once you go into linux, eveyone assumes you already know where everything is and where it all should go. I have news for you - I don't have hundreds of hours to tinker like I did back in middle school. I already know how windows and DOS works, and where I can reasonably expect to find things in windows (though I'd like to shoot the developer that decided "my" should be part of any path, and the ability for installation programs to write anything above the install directory level or to the registry). I have yet to find a simple guide to linux that tells your where things are hiding and where they need to go to work. Most are "here's how to put in a disk and use the interface" or assumes you know the OS intimately. That resource may be out there, but I've never found it.

Not Ready

[kenp2002]

No Linux distribution to date passes the 3 most important tests of an OS:

1: Once installed my wireless network card can connect to my AES encrypted network
2: I can install my favorite game X on it and start playing with equal performance when game X runs under windows. (Currently Team Fortress 2)
3: I can sit my mother down in front of the machine and she can import a scanned picture, resize it, and send it via email to my sister.

These 3 have been accomplished under Windows XP and sadly, Vista. To date OpenSuse, Redhat, Ubuntu, or Gentoo has passed ANY of those 3.

Technology is meaningless in of itself. Technology is used to accomplish a goal. Linux's superior technology is irrelivant to a typical end user. They want to get something done on Linux. It's the same debate that has been going on since Quick and Dirt Operating System was born and regardless of the next round of the OS wars it's really just another Cola war.

Re:Not Ready

[Reapman]

Something I still don't understand is why Ubuntu sticks with NetworkManager... unless it's changed in Gutsy it's a PITA to do what you said for wireless. WICD, on the other hand, does everything you'd expect a wireless manager to do, and does it very well. It will even run before you log in (ideal if you do authentication over the network) It's in the repo's i think but as it's not there by default does require file editing to get it to run on startup etc.

So I'm not disputing anything what your saying, although Gutsy is quite a leap I think compared to Feisty.

One of the things that keep me in Windows is...

[master_p]

...Visual Studio 8. I have yet to see something even remotely comparable for C++ development. I would rarely boot in Windows if I had a such a program for Linux.

Re:One of the things that keep me in Windows is...

[master_p]

To the guys who modded my comment troll: do you have a proposal?

Your silence speaks volumes.

Re:Ubuntu "getting out of your way"

[Bonzodog01]

It was an example of bad management of high profile websites that caused the breach, not bad security on the OS's behalf. The thing is, these servers were brute forced over sshd - and from what I know, it took the attackers nearly a week of brute forcing to get in, and Windows servers can be brute forced and attacked in very much the same way. What it needs is an attentive admin who keeps an eye on the servers, and keeps an eye on the logs, and should pick up unusual activity on the firewall or ports. So, it was bad administration that caused this, not an insecure OS.

Re:Bundling

[kaizokuace]

Ubuntu doesn't own Gundam also.

Funny

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux gets out of your way? That IS funny. I am at home w/ Suse, but I'll be the firt to admit that Linux has a long way to go before the average user thinks it unobtrusive.

When making staements like this you have to consider the apps running on the desktop as well; they are part of "the system" or the experience.

I like "feel good" article but this is off. As a desktop experience Vista and MacOS keep raising the bar and Linux is going nowhere.

Re:Ubuntu "getting out of your way"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the security of an OS no one uses is pretty good, since you can't hack something that's not running...

Yes, and that's why the world is better off with the fact that Teh Lunix's market share doesn't even exceed the installed base of Windows 2000. In fact... it's barely beating Windows 98.

*Worst* *Analogy* *Ever*

[maynard]

his was deemed too small by the automatic upgrade, and for reasons that eluded me like an eel on crystal meth, every time I tried to free up space, the amount by which I fell short got larger.

WTF!?!?!?

What's so Great??

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm tired of hearing people constantly talking about how great Gutsy Gibbon is or how great OpenSUSE 10.3 is or some other version of Linux distro is, but I'm sorry to say that I've installed just about every version of Linux distro on a Toshiba M115-S1061 and none of them work like everyone says. There is no driver support for the CDR/W-DVD ROM. The generic sound drivers are non existent and at best play only very weakly if at all. I'm just as tired of Micro$oft as the next person and I've tried switching to a supposedly superior OS only to get just about as much frustration with Linux Distros as I do with Micro$oft. So Please someone tell me WHAT'S SO GREAT??

UAC is really crap

[TheLink]

UAC is a primitive and crap security model after so many years and billions of dollars. All UAC does is allow Microsoft to shift more blame to the user, without actually helping the user.

With UAC, Joe Average has to do something similar to solving the halting problem. Sure you might be able to guess correctly in most cases, but why should you have to rely on guessing?

I am trying to get the Desktop and OS people to implement the following:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/156693

It's not what I call advanced, but I believe it could actually help people get things done more safely.

"box"

[Anonymous Coward]

When I hear box it depends on what is happening at that time.

Moving: those squarish things to put stuff in
At work: usually a storage container
From a hot girl: a warm, wet, inviting place that I want to visit every day

Re:Ubuntu "getting out of your way"

[Endo13]

Yes, and that's why the world is better off with the fact that Teh Vista's market share doesn't even exceed the installed base of Windows 2000. In fact... it's barely beating Windows 98. There, fixed it for you.

But what is the advantage over XP or Win2K?

[walterbyrd]

I keep seeing these types of posts: "Vista doesn't really suck all that bad. If you have gobs of money to spend on hardware, and gobs of time to spend tweaking, then Vista almost works as well as XP or W2K."

To msft users, I guess these posts seem logical. But I always think: WTF? why are switching at all?

Re:Quite the opposite for me old chaps

[TheMeuge]

Really? You mean Dell isn't selling Ubuntu-preloaded computers at www.dell.com/open, and the website they put up there that I've already purchased from is just a ruse? So the computer I got with Ubuntu 7.04 preloaded was just a figment of my imagination.

Please moderators, mod parent troll for the BS it is.

Why bother

[kuzb]

We all know exactly how these comparison articles from slashdot go. Quit posting them - they're full of FUD and don't give you any idea of linux's problems. Seriously.

Who Determines the Greatness of an OS??

[Anonymous Coward]

Hearing all about how great Gutsy Gibbon is is enough to make me barf. This OS is no better than any other I've seen and tested. I've installed it along with OPENSUSE 10.3, FREESPIRE 2.0, PCOSLINUX, KUBUNTU, and several other Linux distros just trying to find one that "JUST WORKS" out of the box on one simple notebook, TOSHIBA M115-S1061, a commercial low end Toshiba running a 1.6Ghz Intel Celeron Processor, 80Gb HDD, CDR/W-DVD-ROM, 512MB RAM. Guess what, NONE OF THEM MADE THE GRADE! I kept running into the same problem with each distro and that was playing DVD's and playing .MPG, .AVI and any other movie files. Also sound drivers (generic, proprietary) just weren't up to snuff. IF they played they were very weak and barely audible. Next was the wireless network card, which to my amazement, in some of the distros actually worked, but in some I had to go to the actual vendor website to download a linux driver to get it working (definitely not "Out Of the Box" working) and running through the whole gamut of opening a terminal window running apt-get update and installing it.
You're probably wondering why I tested it on a bargain basement special? Simple, if you can get a OS to work on a low end model and work without a hitch, then your distro acceptance may be a lot more widely acceptable. Not everyone is able to afford the most expensive laptop/notebook/tower, but they all would like to have that same experience as the "wealthy" guy. And if you're wondering, I tried all of those same distros on an IBM ThinkPad T-21 and guess what, worked without a hitch and no problems loading drivers or having to find a driver for the wireless card. This model when I bought it cost me $2495.00 and the Toshiba cost me $675.00. Hmm, makes you wonder WHO DETERMINES THE GREATNESS OF AN OS.

This is a confirmed bug.

[NekoYasha]

Bug #1 in Ubuntu: Microsoft has a majority market share.

Re:This is a confirmed bug.

[Daengbo]

The point was that there aren't any XP machines, not that there aren't any Linux machines.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[davidsyes]

Thanks! I definitely will check that out.

Ubuntu Sucked for Me

[DigitalDame2]

I can honestly say that after experiencing Ubuntu on my new Dell Inspiron 530 desktop, I've moved back to Windows XP. Ubuntu is just not as stable as everyone thinks it is. My boyfriend spent more time trying to fix our machine from the OS crashing so many times that it just wasn't worth it anymore. And when we upgraded to Gutsy...forget it. Windows on a Cube didn't work anymore, our wireless connectivity stopped working. I don't understand how an open-source OS that has so many people cheering for it could be total crap. There aren't any companies that are willing to make their hardware compatible with Linux. It's a shame, because I was so looking forward to leading a Linux lifestyle: not having to worry about viruses, playing around with the different 3-D effects, using free software, and experiencing something entirely new. I hate to say it, but Windows is more stable than Ubuntu could ever be in my book.

Re:Ubuntu Sucked for Me

[chmod a x mojo]

Well DUH, of course ubuntu will have issues, especially when upgrading to gutsy. Gutsy has a totally different desktop effects setup. compiz-fusion is a whole different beast compared to beryl / compiz. Not to mention that you said you had "new" hardware, there may or may not be support for it yet, and if there is support it may be buggy since ubuntus' releases are based off of debian Sid/unstable snapshots.

Re:Ubuntu Sucked for Me

[petrus4]

Windows on a Cube didn't work anymore, our wireless connectivity stopped working.

You might need to get some slightly different hardware in a few cases. These items are pieces of hardware that are made in a more transparent way, and thus have open source drivers available for them. If you buy such hardware, you will typically find that its' performance isn't only better in Linux, but in Windows as well.

For starters, I suggest replacing the wireless modem or router, if you can. Get an Ethernet ADSL or ADSL2 router; there are a ton of Ethernet cards with open source drivers that work just fine, with either Linux or the BSDs.

In terms of sound cards, you can also try looking at this list. Of the cards listed there, I've used both the Intel AC97 and SiS 7012 with both Linux and FreeBSD before, and had very good results.

For video cards, I've always used an nVidia card myself. These have Linux drivers, but they are closed source, which some people object to.

For keyboards, try and stick to PS/2 rather than USB...I've heard about Ubuntu having problems with USB keyboards before.

Ubuntu has come a long way in terms of hardware support...but unfortunately some OEMs still insist on selling closed hardware of dubious quality; usually because it's cheap. If you have an offline friend who knows about Linux themselves, they may also be able to help you with this.

Buying a closed box from someone like Dell is absolute poison as far as I'm concerned...but I know there are people who like doing it.

Where:

[confused one]

http://www.newegg.com/

Parallels?

[vague disclaimer]

Anyone got it working through Parallels? It seems to be having screen resolution or driver issues.

Re:YouTube Compare. Re:Another one

[Anonymous Coward]

Same case of Microsoft Derangement Syndrome.
Same tendency to beat the botnet dead horse.
Same writing style.
Same anecdotes from LSU.
Same paranoid delusion that Slashdot is riddled with paid astroturfers dedicated to one or two random individuals.

You strain the limits of coincidence, young man.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[krytor]

How does 7.10 handle dual monitors when there are two video cards involved (verses one card with two heads)? I'm curious if this is what Bigjeff5 has a hard time with. Last year I was in this situation with Dapper on a co-worker's workstation. His system had integrated Intel video + an older PCI ATI card. I wrestled with the Xorg.conf file and BIOS settings on and off for about a week before I got it working. It wasn't too stable either, meaning you could not modify any display settings using the GUI; This had to be done directly in Xorg.conf.

It cracks me up

[sqlguy33]

I love reading all the time about how Microsoft has a monolopy on the desktop market. Yes if you go to Best Buy or any other big box retailer you only find Windows installed on the PC's or Laptops. What is stopping someone like HP, or Gateway, or Acer, or Toshiba, or anyother computer seller from offering Linux pre-installed? The average Joe off the street does not know what Linux is. This is not a slight on Linux or its useablility. It is the fault of all the distros out there competeing with each other. They need to band together and market the damn thing. Marketing sells people. How many people bought Mac's becuase of the Apple vs. Vista ads??? When was the last time you saw a linux ad on TV?? The last I remember was the IBM push a few years ago, and that was aimed at business users not the people vegging on the couch. If Linux is to make it mainstream, they have to bow to the commerical crowd and Market themselves. The basically need to whore themselves out to the world, and probably set aside some of their moral beliefs with it. People buy windows becuase they see windows. If there was one flavor of Linux which could be marketed to the mass, and sold as just Linux. It would take off with time. Not overnight, not bext year, but over a couple of years. You have too many vendors each with their own flavor, and ways and beliefs. The normal joe will not use linux or think linux until they see it on the shelf, on TV and such. So I do not think Linux will ever take over the desktop market in the US becuase it would mean giving up too much in its grass roots start, and belief system to make it so. Linux will not become the retail whore, that Apple and Microsoft became to make themselves popular.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[remitaylor]

It wasn't too stable either, meaning you could not modify any display settings using the GUI; This had to be done directly in Xorg.conf.

I wouldn't say this means it's any less stable. I directly edit .conf files for lots of things ... apache2, subversion, samba, nfs, ssh, ... does that mean these aren't stable?

As far as the dual-head card versus 2 cards go ... I don't know. Gutsy is the first time I've ever had a GUI for editing my display settings. For my dual-head setup, it got me up and running faster than ever before.

I've setup 2 Gutsy desktops now and both required at least 1 tweak in xorg.conf to get *Compiz* working (in one case to get it working properly with 2 monitors, in another to enable Composite for an ATI setup) ... but, without Compiz, everything worked out of the box or by using the GUI to configure. I'll argue that both setups were just as easy as Windows setups. While single line xorg.conf tweaks were required for Compiz ... Windows doesn't have Compiz (and, if it did, who's to say that tweaks wouldn't be required on Windows, as well).

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[krytor]

...does that mean these aren't stable? I was getting lazy and tried to cram too many ideas into one sentence. Important details were omitted; Sorry about that. (Hey, I'm honest.) There were two issues:

1. The display (typically only one monitor) would go into standby mode after making changes to xorg.conf and restarting Xorg. Only a reboot would return any sanity. The same problem would happen when changing resolutions CTRL-ALT +/-. As long as the system was rebooted after modifying xorg.conf, everything was fine. Its likely this issue was with the Xorg server and drivers more than Ubuntu, but it was a royal headache to troubleshoot and I've been tinkering with Linux on and off since the early 90s so I wasn't completely shooting in the dark. We thought maybe the hardware was bad, but the workstation was setup for Ubuntu/Windows XP dual booting and there were no issues in XP. To clarify my usage of "stable" - The desktop was not stable (as in it was fickle whether it worked or not) after restarting Xorg. Heck, the xorg.conf file didn't even need to be modified for this to happen.

2. After hand tweaking xorg.conf so that the two displays rendered the desktop exactly how I wanted it, the Ubuntu display manager would hose xorg.conf bad enough that Xorg would fail while attempting to init the two video cards.

Re:ipconfig? IPCONFIG?

[FoamingToad]

Spoken like a true gentleman, Sir - my tongue was firmly in my cheek with the foregoing comment.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[Taco Meat]

Stop being such a moron. It makes you look like, well, a moron.

Gutsy doesn't have that problem. It works just great for my double monitor setup.

Hey! Learn stuff.

Re:I agree -not

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, like millions of others out there, I also do absolutely HATE Vista. However, when I make my arguments about it, I am honest about it. 10 confirmations required at boot up, that is 100% pure BS!

I did buy an upgrade to Vista Home Premium and I have not found a single machine where it runs better than XP. My experience is that it is about 50% as fast as XP for anything I've tried to do. Not to mention that on half of machines that I've tried it with, I was not able to get at least one piece of hardware to work and never 100% of the software I use to work.

Even with UAC on, I've never had that many pop-ups to confirm or accept the task, especially immediately at boot up.

Re:Two words why I absolutely cannot work with Ubu

[prizrak]

I've been running a workstation with 3 displays in Ubuntu (Kubuntu) starting with Hoary (5.04) without any issues, fully accelerated. I have two Nvidia cards with same chipset (Quadro) - AGP and PCI and use Xinerama to control display positioning. With 2 displays you should be able to use either nVidia native twinview or Xinerama, whatever works better in your case. Check for twinview option in your xorg.conf which you can configure manually, and I believe Gutsy GUI utility can be used to configure dual-displays as well.

MOD PARENT UP

[BenEnglishAtHome]

I've read a whole bunch of these back-and-forth fanboy posts and this is the first one that makes a fresh point.

As for myself, I go with Ubuntu. Compared to Vista, it's freer, higher-performance on a given level of hardware, better with malware (really important for those of use who visit dodgy, dark corners of the net) and easier to maintain. For video, VLC is generally good enough for me.

Now, if there was just a better newsreader than Pan ("better", in my mind, meaning lots of things that I won't go into here), I'd be 100% done and Wine could come off my machine.

CORRECTION Re:Different things for different...

[voss]

I have 1400x1050 resolution on my laptop...I never knew that...holy crap!

Ubuntu is great!

Re:CORRECTION Re:Different things for different...

[nonos]

On mine, native resolution is 1400x1050. But DRI doesn't work with ubuntu and "snowy" parasites appears when moving windows around. I'm waiting for a better driver since this graphic card works perfectly with windows2k, shame to have to reboot to use blender :-( Other problems : cpu freq scaling doesn't work (always a 100% so it sucks the battery) and internal modem not recognized. Everything else works great !

Optical tape

[datadigger]

I wonder how come none ever made "Optical Tape Storage" (and I DON'T mean microfilm)?

The digital data storage industry considers this technology too technically challenging. No commercialization has occurred. Ref: http://statusreports.atp.nist.gov/reports/95-03-0023.htm