Slashdot Mirror
Gender in the Internet Age
Ellen Spertus writes "The latest issue of the Computer
Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR) newsletter
on Gender in the Internet Age is well worth reading for people interested in the dearth of female techies. From the
editors' introduction:
The
purpose of this newsletter is to explore how the Internet and other computing
advances subvert or reinforce gender roles. Will current trends in computing
lead to greater opportunities for both women and men, or will it cement them
in their current roles? Will women be creators of software and virtual
communities, or will they be disempowered users? How will men's and
women's interactions online be different from their interactions in 'real life'?
What changes will propagate from the online to the real world?"
Most people say I am incredibly sexist but WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHAT YOU GOT BETWEEN YOUR LEGS IF YOU CAN CODE?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
Live is easier that way.
--
Gonzo Granzeau
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
I think it is fairly obvious that women will play little part in the computer revolution that is rocking the foundations of Western society. Computer interest started with men, and while a great deal of males are technically savvy, women are generally encouraged as a whole to be ignorant of technical matters. I don't think I know a single female computer "nerd"...girls are discouraged from taking an interested in computers. I see no reason to think that this will change in the near future...men will dominate this technological field, as they dominate every other field.
WOohoO techie chicks... my classes seem to be filled with males hooray for chicks
Hmm ... I think there are probably a lot more female geeks out there than we think. It's just that male geeks (myself included) tend to act strange when they're around. At least in physical form, anyway.
On the Net, nobody knows ... you could be a woman saying you're a man, or a man saying you're a woman. It's somewhat risky, so I always take it with a grain of salt anyway.
And then I suppose there are those men who are into feminism ... I don't even know how to deal with that.
I personally welcome all female geeks everywhere. We need more of you--not because we men geeks are losers (at least some of us are), but because anything that adds to the diversity of our group is a Good Thing. Having women around allows us to look at tech-related issues through completely different eyes sometimes. That's not to say that women necessarily think about geek issues differently than men--they do in my opinion, but I don't want to generalize too much--but rather to say that it's interesting to get another person's opinion on something near and dear to one's heart, especially when it's computers (or something related).
I for one am all for it.
Ultimately, one is judged here by what he/she/it (gotta love inclusive language) can code...
This maybe construed as offtopic but I don't think it is...
With teleworking/networking and working from home, on the increase, plus the huge rise in internet related consultancy and the slow demise of the voice phone it should in theory make the internet more genderless, as someone has already suggested I too consider everyone on the net genderless until I meet them irl, of course 9/10 I know their gender but it makes zero difference.
I also know that a lot of companies (like mine) are actively trying to find female staff, which is easier said than done. I don't think gender on the internet will make any difference at all, it's the workplace, managers, and HR depts that have to change,
The thing that worries me most about the internet and human interaction is the responsiblity aspect. It's incredibly easy to be completely anonymous on the internet, as far as the average user is concerned anyway.
This in turn means that anyone who wants to can completely re-invent themselves to be whatever they so choose, and the only thing you can really do is either a) accept everything as truth or b) doubt everything.
It looks as if doubt everything is going to be the norm, and I think that's very sad. It's an indication of the state of general society that people feel they have to do this (they always have to a certain extent, but not as much as now).
People are going to get hurt, and with the move/transition of official functions moving to the internet this could also be damaging for official lines too. It's much easier to spoof an internet document at the moment than it is an official document, although there are many many technologies to combat that.
I don't claim to have any idea about how to put the personal reponsiblity back into users, but I do worry about the validity of the kinds of people I talk to every day.
The first vibrators were huge, expensive machines sold only to doctor's offices (and came with names like "The Chattanooga").
This was way cooler than Katz's article on sexbots.
--Shoeboy
A few years ago I knew literally no women involved in computers. Now, while the majority of the geeks I know are guys, there seem to be a lot more technically inclined chicks around. It appears to me that the percentage of women in the computer industry (in non-clerical or management positions) has increased significantly over the last decade. Does anyone have any hard figures?
We can barely get women to like us! Now you want us to get them to be us?!
Note: this post not for the humor (or humour) impaired
I did not say that there would be no women in the computer industry. However, I think they will be rare. Computers will be a male-dominated field, just like automobiles, gadgets....
There are always social deviants, exceptions from the rule. In other words, people who go against the norm....but I think that women will be a rare sight in the industry....
As for my opinions on this, I don't really have one. Of course, women have every right to make their way in this business. But the question is "Will they want to?". Women in technology is unorthodox and generally not encouraged by society as a whole.
why do women want to define themselves by a man's standard? why try to get in on the internet and computer phenomenon? can't they think of something equally cool all by themselves? ;)
seriously though, you are defined more by what you say you are not than what you say you are. by saying that they are co-opted out of computing, they legitimize the status quo. they want to stigmatize it, but what do they contribute in return?
what the hell is "women's computing" anyway??!!
C++ for Women?
HTML for Women?
Cosmo Online?
subscribe linux-kernel-for-women
technology itself is genderless.
the content you make of it is the responsibility of the author.
soooooooooo... why don't they make some useful content instead of bitching?
-l
Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
Whenever someone asks me for computer help, I do not patronize him/her. I do not give a quick fix. Instead, I try to educate a little. Try it and see. (Just don't go too fast.)
--
"I was a fool to think I could dream as a normal man."
Unfortunately, My experience is that it is true. Whether this gender segregation is based on a great conspiracy or whatever, I think it tends to occur because of the way Western cultures tend to work. I can only really speak for American culture, though.
If you look at the statistics on a recent /. article about characteristics of programmers, you will note that they score an I and a T on the Myers-Briggs almost all the time. If you expand to all enginners, you will find the same trend, but not as pronounced. The problem is that on about 20% of the population is an introvert (I), and only 20% of women are in the thinking (T) category, while closer to 80% of men are. 20% of 20% is about 4% of all women are likely to be interested in these fields. (Yes, I know statistics don't work like that, but I am simplifying.) In contrast, 80% of 20% would be 16% of all men. This would make men 4 times as likely to enter these fields if these numbers were fairly accurate.
What all that gibberish meant, was that only a Very small subset of women have the personality traits that are typical in these lines of work. Add to that the fact that many families and communities have strongly discouraged women from scientific and engineering fields in the past, and of course you have a gender imbalance in the originators of this medium. This leads to a mild chain effect that makes the female presence on the web seem smaller. Our American culture also pushes down sexist ideas from mainstream view for either sex, but there are a lot more men who are long time veterans of the net than women, for the reasons detailed above. You'll notice that the very sexist issues that come up on the net are usually porn related. Porn is almost entirely directed at men, straight or homosexual.
The end result of all of this is that it is easy for feminists and Femi-Nazis to feel that women are discriminated against. The only areas of the net where gender counts at all are usually targeted at men. This is simply because there have been more men in the past. It is changing, but change always takes some time, especially when it is to a community, even one that changes as quickly as the net.
B. Elgin
B. Elgin
"Read at your own risk; feel free to ignore."
See, I think a slip up like that is acceptable in that particular case. Cause it's rare you find any sort of super-attractive geek, of either sex...
--
Gonzo Granzeau
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
I'm going to take a stab at a biological (not social) reason why there aren't as many female geeks as males, just because we've beaten everything else to death about this subject in recent years and I'm bored.
According to studies I've read (I can't cite them offhand, so take this as unjustified if you like), the male brain organizes and locates objects just like a map. Reason being that evolution favored male hunters who could travel larger distances and still find his way back home. Females, however, do not organize information like a map, but more along the lines of landmarks and mental pictures. The implications of the study was demonstrated by testing both male and female engineers to draw, in detail, everyday objects such as bicycles. Males were clearly superior at this activity, supporting the studies' assertion.
But what does this have to do with the Internet and Computers? I think it is possible there are more male than female geeks because males may simply be better at it. The ability of the male brain to sort out and visualize information like a map may prove as a strength when engaging in activies such as finding information on the Internet, programming, and system administration.
Ok its far fetched, but I thought it would be interesting to offer it up anyways.
That is a very dangerous statement to make. While it is true that women are a minority in science (except perhaps for the life sciences) and technology, this is a rapidly shrinking minority. Statements like yours, however, reinforce the status quo by sending a message that women are unwelcome in the field of information technology. It is also, in my opinion, untrue. I have a somewhat unique perspective, in that physiologically speaking I am 100% male, however from an early age I spent (and still do spend) most of my time around females, and have been socialized to what is much closer to a feminine than a masculine ideal. From this perspective, I have seen very few outright attempts to discourage women from becoming experts in science and technology. However, we still send more subtle messages through the media, of men as scientists and women as homemakers, cooks, librarians, teachers and professionals in other atechnical fields. This is a hard message to change. Women scientists and technologists work in isolated facilities and receive little public exposure unless they make major discoveries, however we encounter female nurses, teachers, and librarians every day. The fact is, however, that this has little impact on a science-minded girl growing up. Of my friends who are female, almost all are planning carreers in science and technology, and those who are not choose to spend their time in other pursuits because that is where their interests lie, not because they want to be scientists but feel that they cannot succeed as women in that field.
\
While there is an increasing trend of women using computers (and yes, even female geeks), it's unlikely that there will be any real progess toward women making up an equal portion of the computer field -- at least, no more so than they do now. The internet provides a real opportunity for an equal opportunity workplace, but unfortunately, that isn't where the problem lies. A great deal of the reason there are so few women in math and science intensive fields is because we, as a society, send the message that math is for boys and not for girls.
This isn't done explicitly -- that's part of why it's so insidious; this message may be sent by teachers who give the girls less attention in class, by the media as a whole, by the boys in the class, by parents, or by a host of other factors. What matters is that it's there, and usually in so innocuous a form as to go unnoticed. It's truly awful that our social system is so horribly imbalanced, and that even if it were recognized, it would be difficult to remedy. The fact that this problem, and others like it, aren't even acknowledged means that we are far from resolving them.
Prejudice is pervasive. It always resurfaces in a subtler, more devious form, no matter what steps are taken to eliminate it.
Matthew
There have been several media related technologies advanced signicantly by the search for porn. An excellent example is VCR's. Guys bought the VCR's, the guys programmed the vcr's, the girls said 'wow these are useful!' and use them as well. Now, it is a gender neutral technological item.
The same thing will happen with the internet eventually. Many girls I know are involved in using their computers for their own purposes, but very few use their computers solely for porn. However, I've met a few guys who have bought cluster arrays to store their porn. Hell, look at Cobalt's major vendor, it's porn online!
Anyway, once again, another modivating factor for men to get online (free porn!) and another modivating factor for women to turn gay (ugh. horny geeks.)
--
Gonzo Granzeau
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
"[Will women] be creators of software and virtual communities, or will they be disempowered users? "
Since when does software creation and virtual communities = empowerment? Or being a user suggest being disempowered?
Women have the highest number of college graduates both for undergraduates as well as Ph. D and Masters Programs. Just because many women prefer fields other than software engineering does not imply that they are disempowered. Check the graduate rolls for Med. Schools, Law Schools, and Business Schools.
LetterRip
Why did I get moderated down again....?
I want something to be quite clear. I'm not saying that this is a good thing....I'd like to see lots of women in the computer industry. But the fact is that when it comes to technical matters, women are discouraged from pursuing careers in them. Therefore, men will be in the majority.
Of course, social conditions may change...and society may become more tolerant of women in technology. But that won't be for a while. Change takes a lot of time.
Cause it's rare you find any sort of super-attractive geek, of either sex...
What!!??
[Rubs Nipples]
I'm dead sexy
I'm a female geek myself, and the reason there are so few women in the tech fields is not that they're discouraged or gender roles or glass ceiling or anything like that, it's just they don't want to. How many people REALLY want to spend all their time sitting in front of a computer banging out code - something most people find incredibly boring?
There are two types of people in the computer industry: People who are there so they could make lots of money, and people who are there because they 'identify' in an odd way with computers. they feel they BELONG with computers. Going back to the columbine thread a long time ago.. why do people identify with computers? because they were social outcasts! I was a social outcast as a kid, but most girls don't experience being an outcast the way most boys do, and thus they never will turn to computers and develop the interest that leads them into a career in computers.
If we assume this is true, it'll take a MASSIVE social shift before women will become equally represented in the computer industry. We can throw millions of dollars at the 'problem', and although it may encourage a few women to become techies, for the most part it will be a failure.
Maybe you didn't read past the first definition in your dictionary. Here's Webster's second definition:
2 a : SEX b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
Main Entry: 1gender
Pronunciation: 'jen-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gendre, from Middle French genre, gendre, from Latin gener-, genus birth, race, kind, gender -- more at KIN Date: 14th century
1 a : a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms b : membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass c : an inflectional form showing membership in such a subclass
2 a : SEX b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
Merriam Webster Online
Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
I played with that thing for hours every day. It was always available to my siblings (though somewhat jealously guarded, I admit). And though we all used it to some degree, I don't remember any clear gender roles coming out. I remember being the only one who could program it.
Same with the Apple ][. Same with my first PC. Same with my second, and so on.
Although now, in the Internet era, my entire family knows _something_ about computers, can get online, find things, buy things, etc. But still, I alone own a computer (or two...). And I'm still the only one who can program it. And so, now I'm a professional. Cool with me, it's what I've always wanted to do. They respect my ability, but are not so covetous as to become skilled themselves.
In computer science classes out of a hundred or so of us there were only 4, maybe 5 girls. And my cousin, a female ChemE major, said it's no different. There is definitely a discrepency in these fields. But I think the feminists in these articles are looking only to place blame.
Why don't girls grow up to be geeks (very often)? Hell if I know. But I'm pretty sure it's not my fault.
This is just with five minute's looking.
Finding God in a Dog
It looks as if doubt everything is going to be the norm, and I think that's very sad. It's an indication of the state of general society that people feel they have to do this (they always have to a certain extent, but not as much as now).
It seems to me that people have always doubted things to the extent that they do now. The difference is just evidence; if a 12 year old kid walks up to you and says he's a 37 year old doctor, you have enough evidence to judge at least some of what he says. If a person in a chatroom tells you the same thing, you have absolutely no evidence to go on. Your choices are to either assume the best and risk being let down, or to assume the worst until shown otherwise.
Perhaps in the overall population there is a bigger discrepancy, but I don't see this as a huge problem that requires immediate action.
z.
Fairly obvious to whom? If we started trying to encourage women to be interested in technical matters, do you believe that women would continue to remain disinterested in the field?
I'm really puzzled by the ambivalence towards actively encouraging women to be interested in computers, math, and science. We're talking about actively, though perhaps unintentionally, telling half of the world's human population, No, I'm sorry, this isn't your area. You don't belong here. Why, in the name of whatever, would we want things to remain that way? Why doesn't it bother people more?
For myself, I'm a late-blooming geek, coming to realize that computers, logic, and "let's take it apart to see if it breaks or if we can put it back together" is a hell of a lot of fun. I wish I'd been into this sooner. How many more like me are there out in the world? Perhaps we need to stop thinking of this as a male/female thing (dualism sucks, anyway), and think of it more as a distributed computing thing. If we actively encourage women to take an interest in computers and technology, we'll have that much more brainpower working at problems, and therefore, probably solve those problems that much faster.
I also don't buy the theory that if women were truly interested in computers, they would have found some way to wiggle their way into the field, come hell or high water. It can be damn hard to make your way into a field you think your friends or parents or society disapproves of. If we introduced women to computers as a tool they can use and not a scary piece of equipment only men can handle, and kept trying, even if there were no immediate results apparent, I bet there would be a slow but steady swell in the number of women in computer science.
One of the worst parts about trying to be a woman who works with computers is putting up with all the damn men....
Are there any female Slashdot readers out there who care to comment on this article?
:)
I believe a lot of the comments people have posted are very interesting, but (I think) there are all by male readers. I am very curious to find out what geek girls feel about their place on the Net. Are these articles accurate or is there another part to the story?
*Are* there any female Slashdot readers?
---
I wear pants.
And yet, objectively, women score about 2% higher on the math SATs than men.
I think there's somthing more going on in your observations than simple failure.
As for my observations in college physics and math courses women were 1/3 of the students and tended to rank at the top of the class.
The highest scoring student in math at my school right up through calc III was a woman, and a music major.
It is quite interesting to see how so far there has been very little evidence that anyone has even started to read the articles before posting a 'response.'
Anyway, does anybody remember the early history of computers, and the dearth of female computer programmers and users? Quite interestingly, women were there from the beginning, it was just that the men writing the histories made the decision to only focus on the men and their machines... Even though the first programmer was female, and the people responsible for making ENIAC (or was it UNIVAC?) work were almost all women.
Gender bias is real, and a serious problem. Take a look at the article on on line communication, and the different problems that are found in this supposedly 'equal' communications medium.
A person will remain biased whether they are communicating via a centuries old medium or a supposedly blank tabula rasa.
Slashdot is a pretty clear case in point, and fits very well within the descriptions of the masculine culture that dominates the internet today, according to that article.
This could be just from personal experience, but there are probably more female geeks than you think, in part because they don't fit some of the stereotypes that most people use to describe geeks. The stereotype of a 'geek' is a male hermit who wears the same clothes with poor personal hygene. However, most of the women I know who know coding and *nix and have all the techincal knowledge and interest associated with the word geek, look and act less like their male counterparts. For example, I buy clothes from Bergdorf's, manolo blahnik shoes, and actually have a favorite designer. I can get into Limelight without paying the cover, and i sometimes wear suits to work. People who don't know me well probably don't know that I stay home every saturday to watch star trek, or know that Apu's brother's name is Sanjay and Hans Moleman is 29 years old. They don't know that I left HS 2 years early and took Quantum Mechanics, Relativity, and Classical Mechanics in my freshman year, or coded for a 15-127 mastery exam at CMU for 11 hours straight with nothing but 2 liters of jolt. Maybe it's harder to tell female geeks from male geeks. I think that there are some advantages to being female. Despite being hit on and stalked, women get WAY more scholarship money that you don't even have to be poor to get. btw, I'm not in the computer industry for the joy of coding or to lurk in the machine room during NYE, even though I do like elegant code. I think that most women are in the computer industry to make money. -j
-sigs of the world unite
The word "meatspace" is new to me, I've seen it twice in the past two days now. Is this word fairly new, or do I just not know any of the slang words of the internet?
I have always advocated one of the great things about the net being it's ability for anominity and how people are judged on merit, not looks, sex, age, or education.
:)
/This/ is the kind of thing I like to see.
:)
I try to judge people by what they say and do, ie: what I can see of their work on the net. How can you do otherwise? If you thought someone had a great web page and said 'man, this person is a great designer' but then found they were ugly, old, young, gay, lesbian, or without a formal design education, would you recant?
I agree that the net's interactions with people (employment wise) are not necissarily "real life", however, I do use my 10+ years on the net and interactions with people on the net to help me in "real life". If someone is a great coder I don't give a flying fuck if they turn out to be a 12 year old colored quadrapledgic (who can't spell) or a 90 year old lesbian great grandmother. Their works are their portfolio.
I think we should all learn to deal with people in this way (or like this).
Hehehe, "Everything I learned about dealing with people I learned from Internet Chat rooms"
Example (probably offtopic, but....):
A while back I heard of a game company looking for a modeller. They said basically, send us some work, if we like it and it rocks you're hired.
No resumes, no interviews, nothing. They could end up hiring a 10 year old who has been playing with a pirated copy of 3ds. So what.
Example 2: I was hired 2 years ago by my current employer as a perl programmer. I had a degree but they didn't care about that, I had some OK C/C++ knowledge, but my perl experience was about good enough to do a hello world but thats it. But they didn't look at education or what I could do, they wanted me for what I had the potential for doing.
This is what I like to see
I disagree with the statement that each gender thinks differently if you claim that it is because of biological reasons. I feel that if the statement were true it would probably be because cultural conditioning. If this is so WE CAN CHANGE what is happening. I have noticed the same thing you have in computer science classes. I found that the reasons these ladies dropped out of the classes was not because they were "not good at math" but because they were "missinformed" as to what computer science is.
I met a young lady a number of years ago when I was a freshman in college who was a first year computer science student. She thought that a computer scientist was a person who was really good at "USING" a computer. It is as if the word "science" went in one ear and out the other. She had no idea that her first course in computer science was not a course in how to use a mouse, but rather in how to write a program. She dropped out after two weeks in the CSci program. Another young lady I met thought that computer viruses "just happened when a computer got sick." Her jaw hit the floor when I told her that people write them. Another case of missinformation or lack of information.
I am not trying to make a generalization about all women, but the majority [not all mind you] of women I know in computer science are in it because it is a good vehicle for expressing mathematics [data interpolation etc.] or because it is a booming field where the money is good or because it is a science field where, if they excel, they can stick it to "the man", literally. But you know what? I think that the majority of men I know in computer science are the same way. I know people who are seniors in computer science who have never used a data structure more complicated than an array because they can't comprehend what they are studying. They are, on the other hand very good computer techs and "USERS", but they are in no way innovative or artistic or inventive and they stumble through their classes getting pity "C's" from their profs. They like games and they like the money they will make pretending to work while their cubical mate pumps out code. [We all know code whores (excuse the language)]
Some of the best mathematicians I know, by the way, are women. It seems that in general that women are just a predisposed as men toward excellence in mathematics, yet more men seem to be interested in it. You know back in high school all the boys took shop and all the girls took Home Economics [except the guys looking for easy grades and looking to hang out with girls.] I am trying to point out that cultural conditioning is more of a factor than biological imperative. If I spent all of my time writing poetry and baking cookies as a young boy because everyone told me that is what young boys do I bet you I too would have a very difficult time with calculus and I would say "Math sucks" or "its too hard". I also know many computer techs and self proclaimed programmers who can't pass a basic algebra class, not because they are dumb but because they don't know how to apply themselves.
One thing I try to do when I meet someone who asks what I do is explain what computer science is. Is start by describing all of the ones and zeros [current no current etc] going on in the computer and then I continue to describe the layers of abstraction that the data goes through. I then go on to describe what coding is and how it is really an artistic endeavor. I show them that I am a computer scientist because of the beauty I see in programming, not because of the money and not because I am obsessed with technology [I have problems setting up my own modem for god's sake, but I sure could write a nifty data transmission program.] Usually their response is awe followed by "wow I didn't know that computers were so cool", [this coming from religion and english majors.
Those of us who consider ourselves "nerds" need to inform the public as to what our passions are. This too could be a reason that many women seem to be in it for the money and if they don't suceed right away they don't continue. They don't see the beauty in it because no one has ever shown them. We are all too busy showing off our new 1000 function calculator's functionality to describe to them "why" it is a work of art and why our scientific pursuits are so worth while and beautiful.
I probably just ranted and didn't make any sense. I just want to say that we as humans shouldn't accept any biological restraints that physiologists, psychologists, doctors, religious leaders, or scientists put upon our physical potential. People said that it wasn't possible for mankind to run the mile in under five minutes and now everyone's grandma can do it. We limit what we can accomplish by accepting bounds to our abilities. Don't listen to other people telling you what you can and can't do just because they cant do it. [I realize that not everyone can jump high enough to slam dunk a basketball, but some martial arts experts would argue with that.]
I'm sorry that this is so long but it needs to be said, and if someone else beat me to it, oh well, redundancy isn't so bad.
Random Task
"I can hoist a Jack. I can lay a track. I can pick and shovel too. I'll do anything you hire me to." - John Cash "Legen
Computer programming and the Internet are one of the few really equal opportunity workplaces in the world, or at least should be. Differences in physical abilities between men and women are not applicable here.
You're grossly wrong. Men and woman aren't just different physicaly, they are also different emotionaly.
You could (and some on this thread have) argue that woman aren't as inclined to think purly logicly, thus explaing the lack of interest in math and computers. But I won't touch that with a 10 foot pole and it just doesn't seem to hold up in my personal experience.
What does hold up is personalities. Particularly how men and woman collaberate. Men tend to be more confrontational. They are more likely to say "that's the stupidest fucking idea I've ever heard" and respond aggresivly when told such a comment. Women build concensus, are more often self critical and don't respond well to agressive criticism.
That being said I think there is merrit to the criticism of Computer Science as a boys club with macho programmers who talk about the need for more "CS chicks." The aditude is at least half of the problem.
Henry Fnord
You two are right. I was wrong to make a dichotomy between empowered programmers and disempowered users. One could even argue for the reverse dichotomy: that coders are drones and application users enjoy the fruits of their labor.
Don't let my poor phrasing in the introduction deter you from the articles in the newsletter, only one of which was written by me. :-)
The internet is colorblind, genderblind, and in fact, blind alltogether. The only way I even know what CmdrTaco's race is, is because I met him at LWCE. If you use an alias, nomme-de-net or just an initial for your first name, no one will ever know your gender.
No one on the internet cares if you're male or female, and they won't know unless you use your real name. And they will never know what your race is unless you tell them. But even if you do, they won't care. This is why I think it's so ironic and sad that Jesse Jackson is decrying internet racism.
This is the purest meritocracy. You have to earn your way on your own. You won't have gender or race to help (or hinder) you.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
In case you were in need of further correction, you misspelled synonymous.
:-P
Seriously, you've got about a 90% chance that anyone you meet on the Internet claiming to be a woman is actually a man with an agenda. Think about that real hard before agreeing to meet anyone (Fortunately not the voice of experience talking here.;)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
And yet, objectively, women score about 2% higher on the math SATs than men.
Sorry, not even close. Women tend to get better grades in high-school math, but from
http://www.fairtest.org/satscr97.htm
come the following stats:
Verbal Math Total
Males 507 530 1037
Females 503 494 997
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
i think its in the gibson novels, so you just don't know any of the slang words of the internet
Need a Catering Connection
And I remember thinking, "Well why not organize a user interface that would appeal to the female way of thinking." Unfortunately having a penis I can't imagine what shape that interface would take. Maybe I should ask some of my female fr... Oh wait...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I've yet to meet a girl geek. I would be glad if I did, since many conventional women find my habits a little, uhh.. geeky?
from my experience, some women can't stand a guy who spends hours on computers/console games/reading/movie watching every day. I have on idea why, and I think it would be cool to meet someone that could accept it.
so a tip to all girls, don't be afraid to talk to guys about tech stuff.. you might just find your match..
[disclaimer: i am not desperate.]
'Mullethead. A hairstyle that's a way of life'
she said 'slow but steady swell'. (Sorry, but I had to say it. :)
I wish there were more geek women around. If for no other selfished assed reason than I want to socialize with them and not the mainstream women. Save meeeeeeeeeeee!
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
on the internet, nobody gives a crap what gender, race, nationality, hand prefrence, sexual preference, etc etc you are, unless you make an issue out of it
now your domain, and your typing speed, those are real issues, and easily changable
seriously though, if people would just stop bitching about there being an inequality, and start doing something about it, it would disappear readily
if i were in a position to hire ppl, i'd want to hire somebody who know what they were doing, and could do the job to suit my needs, and if anybody does anything different, i'd think its bad business practices (and subject to a shareholder lawsuit?)
Need a Catering Connection
& why do you think it is they *arent* interested at all in high tech? same reason you aren't interested in sewing. society doesn't encourage either one; in fact I bet you'd get laughed at for being in that high school sewing class, and at the very least feel somewhat uncomfortable in a class, being the only guy.
buzzword time. :)
We were doing *ahem* xtreme programming coding on 3D engine coding on Spec Ops before we realized there is a "buzzword" for 2 of us coding at the same time for something as crucial of rewriting of data structure of 3D engines.
There is absolutely no gender bias for or against pair programming.
In fact, it requires the "lack of social skill" of noticing each other smell bad when the 2 of us sit and type so close for an entire weekend without going home (shower).
When we got tired enough for Adrian J. (he was PSX Spec Ops lead/programmer, he recently shipped PSX 3D game Medal of Honor, woo hoo!) and I, Adrian J. started to have his finger puppet talk to us.
So it is code pair plus finger puppet, with his own personality.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Very few of the comments have been about the articles in the news letter. Here are some pointers to the articles that I think would be of most interest to slashdotters. (Disclosure: I was a co-editor of the newsletter.)
On a side note, notice how at least 90% of the pr0n on the net is very low-quality stuff that usually ends up making you just go "Eew!"? I'm thinking that life's too short to wade through all those bad images for the few good images that are out there. To that end, I think and "Internet Pr0n Review" web site should be set up in order to review all the Pr0n on the internet at any given time (And possibly even dead tree pr0n as well.) How's that for a business model? All I have to do is start it off and wait for the IPO.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I think you've nailed it on the head.
I've worked in a lot of environments, some of which quota'd female hirings in tech depts. and I've yet to see the "female geek".
Most women in the field don't know a ftp client from a telnet client. It's not that they're any less "smart" than the men, or don't have the problem solving skills. It's just they don't have the "I lack social life, so computers define my existance" intensity some males in the field have.
As long as men code the games, apps, PCs, it's all going to be male oriented.
I think two different things are occurring:
1. Women are discouraged from become technogeeks by friends, family, school, society. Especially if they are considered pretty.
2. Being a technogeek is more encouraging for certain types of personalities/traits. These traits have shown up in men more often than in women, either due to social conditioning or due to minor genetic differences.
Still, all in all, it reminds me of when the CAF did testing of women pilots versus male pilots. They found that women pilots were better pilots, especially of fighter jets. BUT - very few people can pass the tests to become pilots - you need spatial conception skills for example - and so, more men could become pilots than women. The same probably applies to women technogeeks. As a women surgeon was saying on NPR yesterday: "You have to be twice as a good a surgeon than a man would be if you're a woman, to be considered to be adequate. Luckily, it's not that hard to be twice as good."
Will in Seattle
Ada Lovelace, first computer programmer...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Some more comments after reading Strangers In the "Myst" of Video Gaming: Ethics and Representation
she's going on about how there's no good female role models in video games.. but then she says there's Lara Croft.. but THEN she say girls don't play video games so it doesn't matter if there's a good role model because the girls will never see it.
but she didn't say that before going on about how since lara croft has big boobs, she must just be a sex object and is a bad role model.
in this they convniently ignore almost all video games that have good female role models and focus on the games they see when first walking into a video game store and then assuming all video games are like that. Take RPG's - although there is usually a male lead in RPG's, there are plenty of strong women, from Rinoa in Final Fantasy to Vandal Hearts II, which has roughly equal male to female ratio in your party, and all the women start off as straight out fighters.
But of course male to female ratios in computer games has NOTHING to do with how many females are in tech industries - people who play video games don't necessarily go on to learn more about computers (how much computer knowledge do you REALLY need to use the N64?) nor do people in the computer industry always play computer games (I don't - but with my significant other working for RPGamer.com and all I know enough about video games to prove my point)
When will our society learn that women and minorities haven't been held back for over 20 years now? Women and minorities are typically too busy doing other things that pursuing computer/technology oriented jobs/hobbies. As far as I am concerned the less people like the feminists who equate made by a man with made only for men, the better off the internet will be. Frankly I don't believe in democracy anymore, I don't believe the majority has the right to push its will on the minority and vice versa
Admiral Grace Hopper developed Fortran.
(Fine, laugh at Fortran, I did punchcard on Fortran 77 too, but if you would repsect the Cobol guy, at least respect the Fortran gal.)
Dr./Ms. Ingrid Daubechies developed Daubechies wavelets that is used in a lot of compression algorithms, including the new super compressed JPEG.
Maybe one of these days, I can list myself too. I did 3D and 2D game coding for some OK games. You may or may not have enjoyed them. I have contributed (as a game developer only, not as DX developer) a lot to Direct 3D 7, and am contributing a lot now as we speak to Direct 3D 8 and 9. I guess you may have that installed in your system or not. (/me duck from OpenGL fanatics.)
As for giving away code, I am (but hope to be) not on the level of Linus Torvald, but I had written many code snippets that I give away for free to explain concepts and assist other game developers throughout many years to share.
/ouch flames coming up!
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
One thing to remember, the computer revolution is in it's bearest infancy.
The interfaces we use to write programs, type applications, even play games are laughably primitive.
100 years from now computers will be as common as electricity is today and no single element of any society will be seperated from them.
Who does and doesn't use computers today is a moot point.
It's a free society, there's the computer, work away. Sorry if the presentation/interface/cost isn't to your gender/attitude/income-level at the moment, we're slowly working on making it better.
In the mean time, sit back and enjoy the ride. It's gonna be a heck of a trip, kids.
It *just* occurred to me.
Just in case you are salivating.
Adrian J. is a he. A poorly groomed and dressed he.
And a good coder.
Which is what matters.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
There was a very interesting article in December's Delta Sky Magazine (but their web site didn't archive it.) mentioning that graduation rates (and I'm talking actual numbers, not percentages) of women in computer related fields is actually dropping. This seems pretty disturbing, given that this industry is so prosperous. I wonder if anyone has any actual figures on this.
...not your genitals or your parents. I can't honestly say that there is no discrimination, but IT strikes me as being the most open industry I've had any exposure to. Especially in this gold-rush tech boom.
:^)
Disclaimer: No, I didn't read all the linked articles. I'm reading 'Simulacra and Simulation' right now, and social theory is getting painful.
The term computers was actually used to describe the women who 'computed' for the US Government if I'm not mistaken.
First one to come up with a good, reliable algorithm to determine the sex of a web-page author, feel free to tell me and I'll buy you a beer. :)
Finding God in a Dog
or should i say, does anyone remember when the word gender had to do with language, and the word sex had to do with organs?
This does not mean there will be no females in computers, mathematics, engineering or physics, just less.
Even in other industrialized nations, societies, and cultures there are less women in geek fields. There may be more females outside the United States with advanced degrees in engineering because of better teaching, but most of them still either go into teaching or switch careers, instead of high level research or industry.
Is there anything wrong with this? Must males and females have equal abilities in everything? Is it wrong, say, if in the future, the majority of attorneys, law professors and marketing executives in the world are women? I don't think so.
The laws dictating gender roles in the IT industry are no different than any other industry in other periods of time. In every case where there was sufficient income for one person to sustain the needs of two, women dropped out and men assumed the providing role. It's no more different in IT than it was in advertizing in the 50's or biology in the 80's. Even the female engineering students can be seen following around their boyfriends, steadfastly waiting to graduate and stay home. And the women really expect it as surely as the sun sets. The IT industry is just like the 50's and you often wonder whether the re-emergence of the nuclear family we live in now is good or bad, because it's so ubiquitous.
Frankly, the idea of "gender issues" gives me hives. Clearly, in an ideal world career opportunities would be available strictly based on ability and performance. Relative to a community, we might speak in terms of esteem and contribution rather than opportunity and ability. That we do not live in an ideal world, and that "gender" as such plays a role in these things is self-evident - and unfortunate. But it is easy to over-analyze this fact to the point of absurdity, and to overstate the problem to the point of untruthfulness. I think that is what has been done in this issue of the CPSR newsletter.
I put "gender" in quotes because I'm a bit of a language purist. I believe that current trends in the development of English tend to make it a clumsier and less expressive form of communication. I therefore strongly dislike the use of "gender" to mean "sex." Not so long ago, "gender" was a strictly grammatical term, and "sex" was used to denote both the act of copulation and la difference. Somehow, in the process of the societal changes that made copulation so free and easy (in theory anyway), "sex" lost it's second meaning. I'm sure that a contributing factor is that there is no gender in English, and where it does occur it tends to be in loan words or neologisms from Latin. An irritant, nevertheless.
I only had time to read the introduction and selected articles, but if the sort of research exemplified by this article is any sample, the data presented is virtually worthless. The information presented about "Women's Language" vs. "Men's Lanugage" in online interactions, for example, is nonsensical. It is:
- Dated - the data are from 1994. This is an eternity online. Does the author really imagine that nothing has changed since then?
- Subjective - An example is "Explicit justifications" under Women's Language vs. "Presuppositions" under Men's. Well, maybe the author thought so. But anyone who routinely interacts with MOTOS, and is paying attention, knows that each sex possesses its own set of presuppositions which are often so ingrained as to be invisible to the individual. Besides, justifications can only go so far. Behind every justification is a set of presuppositions. Formally, these are called "axioms".
- Inaccurate - According to this table, women do not engage in humor or sarcasm online. Apparently these people have never met my wife, or the women with whom she interacts online - or, for that matter the women with whom I interact online. I could say the same about some the other characterizations.
Actually, every "fact" presented in this article is contradicted by my personal experience. While the latter necessarily constitutes nothing more than anecdotal evidence, I would expect that I would encounter at least some examples of the general case! I participate in discussion groups on a number of topics ranging from Eastern Orthodox Christianity to Renaissance Faires to PC games, to the panoply of topics on Slashdot. In every instance, where the topic may be expected to be of equal interest to both sexes, there is equal or superior representation of women both numerically and in terms of participation.One irritating assumption is that it is necessarily a Bad Thing that women are underrepresented in the technical occupations. Why should that be perceived as a problem? Is there a great deal of concern over the preponderance of women in the teaching profession? Or nursing? As small-business owners? As recipients of college degrees? As moralistic nationally syndicated talk show hosts?
I don't know why the fact, evident from centuries of experiences of both sexes, that men and women do not think the same way, have different priorities in life, and find different things to be interesting, should be so disturbing. Women as a group are simply not interested in things geekly. I received my bachelor's degree in 1985 from a small engineering college on the East Coast. Formerly a men-only institution, they had been co-ed for at least 10 years by the time I matriculated. The male-to-female ratio was 7:1, and from what I hear this hasn't changed. Similar trends obtain nationwide. There is no bar, either legally or socially, against women attending these institutions. They don't want to.
(As it happens, my own social circle in college was split between the sexes roughly 50-50 as is my group here at work, so I obviously know a large number of women who are interested. I speak in the general case.)
I can only conclude that the author of this particular article, and the others in this issue of the CPSR newsletter, feel they have some vested interest in generating a sense of sex-based exclusion in online interactions that does not in fact exist. I decline to speculate on what that might be. I do think that as a result their views are not worthy of serious consideration - and certainly not of affecting public policy - unless they can assemble a more compelling set of data.
And the brethren went away edified.
Apologies to being a poo poo head. :)
/ouch please don't flame. I know in one post I offend all kinds of women and men at the same time.
Good job, Hemos.
Let's draw out all the "Are you a chick? Please resp" troll.
And draw out all the "am a chick and I also code" posts. (As demeaning as I am a black man and I am articulate.)
Not to say all the "online transvestite flirts."
How about: There is some good math/code here, something I can use for my project. Wait, I can't believe it, it is from a woman. Cool, she is one of the best. I guess it doesn't matter if it is a he or a she then.
P.S. I am usually/still an optimistic math-code nut. It is just fun to *play* cynical once in a while.
P.P.S.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
There are differences in the way our brains work (visual perception for instance - ever argue with your girlfriend about whether something's red or orange? We actually see a little differently.) but I think you'll find it's more cultural. For instance where I work the number of women programmers who are Indian or Asian far exceed the American women. One thing I notice is that most women prefer not to be very confrontational (ok, insert obligatory girlfriend joke here) as opposed to butt-headed nearly-juvenile guys who'll try to argue each other into submission in their engineering classes. (As I recall!) Also it seems to me there are a lot more women in the biological sciences than computers, and there's no less science going on. In any case few tech jobs (including programming jobs) actually require a CS degree, so that shouldn't stop them.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
You have to be kidding! Most of the posters here (including the editors) can't get lose/loose or to/too right and you want actual semantically correct writing? I salute your optimism sir!
I've thrown out resumes based on piss-poor writing. Obvious errors, mangled sentences and crappy punctuation show me they don't take the time to care about their output, and I don't want to be embarrassed or have to edit everything they write before it goes to someone who WILL notice. More importantly, it shows up in the code too.
Not that they'll ever believe it...
The revolution will NOT be televised.
ha ha coward you don't know what you walked into. :)
For picking on some apparently defenseless wimmin (sic).
Put your code or math where your mouth is.
Show me your superior code/math/intellect. (Snippet would do.)
I am willing to put my own math/code on the line.
Unless you are ? or ? or ? who I know would never say anything like this, I know I have a good chance of being a better coder than you.
Take it offline perhaps?
Specialty alert: I am more 3D Game Engine Programmer than a web developer, so it is possible if your specialy is web development/administration your API knowledge would be more current.
If you do 3D Game Engine coding, the challenge would be perfect.
If you are webbie, API-wise I would be disadvantaged, but I can learn the new API and exploit it fast enough.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
I think you've been reading Katz too much my man! Maybe the bastards just know that's what gets under your skin. Men are ALWAYS much more inclined towards confrontation and fighting. Guy fights vs girl fights were always 10-1 when I was in high school.
:-)
You either go kick some ass or learn to let it roll off your back. Kind of like choosing Marines or Buddhism. It's Survival 101. Good luck!
And yes, it does suck.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
No women in tech fields? God, who would have known? Are people just beginning to notice this? I've been involved with computer related activities (one of those social outcasts mentioned in many other posts) for some time now. And ya know what? I don't see (m)any females, period. Sure, there are one or two. But I've worked all across North America, and the number of women in engineering positions is low!
There are some women in technical writing and related fields (support). I have met (2), count 'em, 2, females developing C++. And frankly, I wasn't too impressed with the skills of one of them (not to be sexist or anything). I have met literally hundreds of male engineers / programmers though - the range of companies spanning everything from small shops, to academia, to big corps (hello Intel!). Some of those males had code that sucked too - but the ratios are astonishing.
Any stats on /.? This is a more general forum than I'm talking about - my background is electrical engineering - and it's still, way, way, way, way male oriented.
So, obviously, there is a serious issue here - is it an issue though? Maybe, concidering that hardcore engineering and programming/design jobs are going to make up more and more of the high paying jobs that are available in the future.
Let's get to the root of it: In western culture, computers aren't cool. Engineers, well, they're not real cool either, by association. This is not the case in many eastern societies, where engineers and tech people are pretty hot shit (pardon my french) as far as potential mates/partners/etc go.
I think a lot of this doesn't have much to do with male vs female genetic differences. It might have a little, but I doubt it. I think it has much more to do with how people (females, especially) are socialized - specifically, that social status, attractiveness, social connections, etc are much more important in the formative years than hacking away on a computer. And this is more important than a lot of people think - most of the skills I have now I can trace the roots back to hacking on my old Commodore 64, learning assembler so I could run programs on my 1541 disk drive :).
There are exceptions to the above, sure. We're talking general trends though. And one of the things that I love about this industry is there is no discrimination. If your code rocks, I don't care if you're a she, he, it, pierced, gay, asexual, socially inept - your code rocks. Being able to communicate with others helps too though :). But, that's all part of being a good hacker.. a la social engineering :).
Personally, a shortage of tech workers is a good thing - it makes me more valuable. That's microeconomics, though. hehehe.
There's my $0.02 (cdn)
Kudos!
..don't panic
...so they can yap about how poorly women are treated in the classrooms.
The reality is, students have never had it so good in the classrooms, and at my university, there were maybe 2-3 women per class of 35 students.
maybe we should pay women $1000 a week to go to school and sit in science classes? i don't know what the answer is.
of course, the women i've worked with (including the 1/4 they make up at our shop) are just fine.
if you don't go to the class, you don't get a degree, and you can't really be a geek. yes, i think a true geek requires at least a bachelor's degree, or be working toward one.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Quite frankly this is absurd. Who the hell cares if the ratio of men to women isnt 50/50. Thats not what life is about. More "News For Nerds" please, less socio-political stories.
Learn to know, the dark side of the force, and you will achieve a power greater than any Jedi...the power to save your w
Let me fan the flame of the challenge more (so coward would step out of his cowardice) by saying ...
"Why so few chauvinistic males who can stand up to a woman coder in math?"
:)
/ouch flame
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Don't you mean "I'm LuVRGrl69 from #teenchat" "I thought you were like 13" "Most pervs do" :-)
Right, just like george carlin says, we'll all be better off once we've all had babies with different races such that everyone's one color... we'll all be better off once we've all had babies with different sexes such that everyone's the same sex.. Er wait.
:-)
Besides I'd wager that over half of the "females" on the net might be male.
You're really going out on a limb there with that wager! You should join #girls and see, there really are quite a lot of real women on the net!
Sociologists, the people who study this sort of thing, have a more considered opinion. People in societies often do things because they want to, but their desires can stem from controllable culturally-constructed forces. For example, you probably wear clothes at school, and it's probably because you want to. But why do you want to? Partly for the physical reasons, but more because of stigma against nudity. There exist societies in which that stigma doesn't exist.
To apply the same reasoning to the discussion at hand, feminist sociologists would argue that while it is indeed true that women don't learn to program because they don't want to, the reason they don't want to is far from inherent to women, and is in fact rooted in culture. Furthermore, the fact that there aren't very many girls involved in computer-related fields means that tomorrow's women will be at a severe economic disadvantage- because of cultural patterns that we could do something about.
-jacob
In the USA, girls tend to be turned away from Math and Science at a very early age, so it is often too late when we start looking at job interviews and the technology field in general. There has been a lot of work done on this issue. It's worth looking at.
A good starting point are the following books:
_SchoolGirls: Young Women, Self-Esteem, and the Confidence Gap_ by Peggy Orenstein.
_Teaching the Majority : Breaking the Gender Barrier in Science, Mathematics, and Engineering_
by Sue Vilhauer Rosser
No no silly you've got it wrong. Haven't you seen _Fear of a black hat_? The difference between bitches and ho's is that a ho will fuck anybody.. and a bitch will fuck anybody but *you*.
nah. its just that its widely regarded as boring and hard to code. lets face it - sitting in front of a monitor and coding is about the most fun thing i could think of -- and would probably fit everyone elses definition of boring as hell.
Personally, i'd love to see more females get into coding..its a helluva lot better to have a more balanced male/female ratio. maybe then i can get a life...
just in case for poor Adrian's sake guys lust after *him*
he is heterosexual and wouldn't enjoy the appreciation.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
This is what I was expecting would start to happen after being in college myself (I'm a college dropout btw, I dropped out because I get paid more by working than going to school. :) ). I noticed a lot of the people, which were mostly female, figure about a 3 females to 1 male, were in there for the money. A lot of them just couldn't keep up with other people like me. Being in the IT industry seems to be something that you need to study a LOT and keep studying. It's not something you can just go learn and it'll stay the same until you retire. It changes so quickly that you need to endlessly study each day learning new things, learning things that were there but you never knew were there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I spend an incredible amount of time learning new things, and new ways of doing things, thinking of ways of doing new things, coming up with faster ways of doing things, coming up with faster/easier ways of doing things. It never seems to stop, and above all else, you have to love it, else you'll slip behind the rest of us, and be considered clueless. I think the money is there in the IT field not because it's hard or because not everyone can do it, but because it's something that you got to love and you have to spend a lot of time doing it. This is something that a lot of people don't want to spend a lot of time doing. Which is why I think there will be a good job market in the IT industry for a long time. :)
Where are the feminists right now? Give us female geeks! We need our matching souls! =] Just kidding.. :)) I think many women aren't so crazy about "computer stuff" :(... Too bad, we'll be here waiting! We have Open Hearts (r) :)
Men are discouraged and encouraged; women are just plain discouraged. Sure, you might get called a dork and perhaps you'll even get beaten up for liking science and being smart- on the other hand, though, Albert Einstein was the person of the century. How's that for a positive role-model? And there are tons of them- I'd reckon (I'm from the South, so I reckon quite frequently by national standards) that by far the majority of "great" scientists, i.e. science role models, that you (or I) can name are men.
For women, the cultural message is much more monotonic- "science is not for you." There aren't many sciency role models for women, and there's still the stigma of being a dork or a geek if you like science or computers. So the fact that men are discouraged from being scientists is cancelled out by the fact that women are also discouraged the same way, and that leaves the fact that men do have some encouragement whereas women usually do not.
-jacob
However, it is quite sad that not many women decided to follow in her footsteps, because I think it would be really cool to date a geek girl.
My name is Trunt. I have pleasure of knowing geeky girls and they are smart. One is smarter than me. So I think that all you man who think girls aren't smart are dumb and are bad. Goodbye from Trunt
My name is Trunt. It is a good name. Please don't tease me.
I would have kept this as a private email except yours isn't listed in UserInfo... so...
;)
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for being so incredibly cluefull about feminism. So educated, so reasonable, informed, and nonbiased.
Of course, the fact that I agree with you helps... *laugh* But thank you. If it weren't for my boyfriend... I KISS YOU!
(Take notes, guys: Being up on feminism scores points with chicks.
A relieved and happy feminist (kiss my ass! I EARN my raises AND my grades!),
Lynnaea
The principle of aggrandizement is the fundamental law of every government. - Frederick the Great
We start by you stop being Anonymous.
I won't play unless you come out with your real long-on!
(Same rule for the putz.)
I love it when I run into other math-nuts who want to chat math.
Since you are not the putz, how about, win-or-lose, we all have fun with this?
i.e., my point wouldn't be to prove you are bad at math, even if you lose, etc. (keep it fun and games, not ego-based) So take as long as you need, etc.
I am just grateful to find people who wants to have math conversations! (How much are you into sphere packing?) I don't need to trash people's egoes.
First one: What is ( 2 * x * x + 2 * y * y + z * z - 1 ) ^ 3 - 0.1 x * x * z * z * z - y * y * z * z * z = 0 ?
You can either answer the math way by recognizing the function, or you can cheat by coding it/graphing it. Take your time.
P.S. You don't need to be too scared. While my code have current math, I have been in the applied world in many years. You have a pretty good chance if you are still in academia and the rigor is fresh.
You hear that putz? If you're in academia still you have a good chance.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Calling all RL TTBs (Pyr, Miz, Wolf, Nancy, just to name a few), Kick Math Butt, babes! :-)
Nitrozac
The article opens : There is a widespread, but false, belief that time and technology necessarily improve people's lives. CPSR members know that we have to work to make sure that technological advances reflect our values.
I think that part of the reason that this statement is true is that people define "technology" differently.
Now my caveat: In (macro) economic terms, it is true to say that technology necessarily improves people's lives. That is because technology is more generally defined to be that which increases productivity and is not an "input". A rise in productivity, ceteris paribus, increases standard of living. So by definition, technology improves peoples lives.
Of course this isn't the definition that the rest of the world uses.
Oh well, just rambling...
Pax -- Ob
This is probably offensive and politically incorrect. But its true. Question: Why is it that many of the greatest people of history are men? I do not mean to say that women do not play a part, only that many of the greatest scientific advances have been by men. Think about it: Alan Turing, Newton, Einstein, Martin Luther King. Every great advance (and regression, say Nazi Germany) that I can think of has been done by men. Again, I am not saying that women had no part, only that the history courses I have taken have not covered many women. If my knowledge is not grossly lacking (which it may be), then I suggest that this trend that we see in the past is what we see now in technology industries, and, perhaps, it will be what we see in the future. My apologies for this rather anti-women post.
In my experience I've known very few women who were good with computers or who had the right mindset to work with computers well... but I haven't known that many guys like that either. However, as a guy I was encouraged in my computing experiments--guys would approve, and women would say things like ``You're so smart.'' (obviously not the geek women women who I wanted :-) ).
There were a lot of guys (mostly Jock-types), who thought they knew everything. So they would be very assertive in their knowledge of computers and science. If I corrected them, it was fine (because everyone knew that I was a nerd and knew what I was talking about (besides they were stronger, so admitting my superiority in this one area was ok). However, if a girl corrected them, they would reassert their correctness (wrong though it might be) until the girl backed down or gave up trying to correct them (this was especially true if the girl was pretty--which most geek women I've known are).
Most of the geek women I've known have gone into education or communication. I think some of them would have gone into computers if there was more encouragement (not to boost their self-esteem, but to show them that they would be accepted and be able to make a contribution without a lot of battles).
Because of this filtering that goes on, the geek women that have gone into computing and engineering are either REALLY good, or trying to prove a point. I can't respect the ones that are just trying to prove a point.
Oh, and for you geek women: you are awesome, and generally very attractive to us geek guys (or at least, I am very attracted to geek women). So I probably try to prove myself more to the women, and so come off a bit patronizing. I don't mean this, and I'm sure that a lot of geek guys are like this. So if there's something about our behavior that bothers you, just say something. You'll probably get a quick quip dismissing it, but then say ``No, really... I mean it.'' and I would be more than happy to accommodate.
In other words, us guys make mistakes; give us room :-)
Boy, I feel like Jon Katz now :-)
He's right. Its never easy for any of us geeks in school, but there's usually a small group of geek guys that can hang out together. And the guys are more likely to be encouraged by parents and teachers. For girls, not only do peers think it is uncool to be a geek, but we are less likely to be encouraged by teachers and parents. There are fewer of us (but we are a growing population) and we don't have anyone to hang out with at school. I was never actively discouraged by any teacher or parent, but most of my teachers seemed to think I was odd and just didn't know what to do with me. In college things are much easier, but most people form most of their life goals (or lack thereof) and set the stage for reaching those goals in high school
No discrimmination? Please! You sound young and naive. I've been working very successfully in the computer industry for 12 years - coding in everything from Assembly to C++ and back again, managing projects, designing the &(*& out of stuff, and travelling around the world doing it. That doesn't count the 6 years on computers before that. Or the EE/CE double major I finished at the end of those 6 years.
When I first was on the internet - in its early, early days - it was a pretty cool place. No idiots, just true (not slashdot fake) techies that worked at universities. Then newsgroups and bulletin boards came into being. Suddenly using a female name got me harrassed, crudely propositioned in every way possible, attacked, vilified, verbally abused, and eventually stalked. I, like many other women, started using gender-neutral names. I got so sick of it, I stopped using the net for awhile unless I absolutely had to. I wouldn't even open email from people I didn't know. And this group of men were supposedly the more educated section of the population - not the masses we have today.
Additionally, in my years working, there have been many situations where clients have said they wouldn't meet with a woman. Heck, it just happened to a member of SYSTERS last week with a German client - he threatened to pull the client if a woman (one of two key programmers) was present in a meeting!
In years of engineering, I have had men laugh when I said I was an engineer. I still laugh at men's reactions! How naive and stupid! Male tech support people are always condescending. Male computer salesman are the worst!! And at tradeshows, it's hard to get the attention of company reps. And it's even harder to get them to follow up with me. They assume as a women - regardless of the VP title - that I'm not in a position to make a decision on anything technical.
Just tonight I was in a bar talking with 3 guys I'd just met. Two of them were talking about intruder detection software on cable modems. The third one turned to me and said "geek talk - I'll translate". Then he waived his hands around like it was radio static they were saying. What an idiot. I smiled sweetly and asked how he knew I wasn't a geek myself. Maybe it was the black leather jacket that led him astray. By the end of the evening, the three of them were asking me about home LAN installations. At least they recovered quickly.
I'm going to sleep now, and when I wake up I will be going to the gym, not reading slashdot, so don't expect swift replies from me.
Kidding or not, it doesn't make it any less fun.... Besides, ever listen to the Christian Coalition. Or that bigot who used to be so populat - Rush Limbaugh. Nothing this guy said wasn't said by them. (Except maybe Pauly Shore.)
By the way, that last post - the reply to the idiot - was me. Charmed, I'm sure.
Yes, some men that go into computers are called geeks and faggots. Not all. Certainly not all. And especially not today. And even when they are, it's usually just in high school. Women on the other hand were almost constantly harassed and insulted. Not just in high school, but in college, and into the workplace. Even online. It is better now. I'm not trying to belittle the teasing that does happen to men, but look at the ratios.
There has been a study(i dont have a link) about why women seem to have better social skills than men. It has been shown that when growing up the parents talk much more with a girl child, giving here better social abitlities, she learns how humans interact. Does this maybe deattract women from science/tech, which to many seem lonley?
Baby boys on the other hand are educated to become a good "family provider" in the stone age sense. They get toy hamers and toy guns, they learn how to build things(and destroy things). This gives them a lot of abstract thinking, they make plans for building things in thier heads. This maybe gives them a better sense for logic, which attracts them to science and tech?
Sigh. It's too bad there's not actual logic in your comments. At least then it might be worth a discussion with you.
Ranting does not an issue make. I'm willing to debate an intelligently and logically constructed arguement based on fact. Got any of those? Or did you waste them all on your y2k shelter?
This article's wording has changed from original post?
But there are many points. On a brain level, females are more oriented towards interpersonal reaction than males, and males more towards things with fun buttons and blinking lights than females. I like to think that nurture is far more responsible than nature, at present, but I want to acknowledge both. That said, I wonder if the critics of "male-oriented games" on the grounds of gameplay/lack of realistic interaction with other people realize just how hard that is to program. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that programming 3D graphics is easy... but it is simpler than simulating a real person. That, and it sells more copies.
Buchanan (Elizabeth, not Patrick) bases everything on three categories:
I'm proud to say that I've never played any version of Tomb Raider... but from the commercials for it I've seen, I think 36-24-36 is just a wee bit too small in the chest for Lara. Try something in the mid 60's, maybe... And NO, I do not find it attractive at all.
I was very, very disappointed with this article. It has some very strong points, and I agree with most of them. But the support is lacking. For any given statement, a single quote from a single paper is made... this is disturbing behavior. I'm only used to seeing this from right-wing zealots, not from intelligent feminists. The repeated citing of Herring was bad... not just because I disagree with the 'no gender neutrality' conclusion, but because at one point it gets so bad that King, the writer, mentions something that Herring cites without listing it herself. Still, better than some things I've seen which had no bibliography at all. And definitely an issue worth discussing.
Okay, time for th e cyberpunk article. Ouch. Again, good points obscured by... I hesitate so much to say zealotry, but I have no other word. Metaphors and symbolism have never been my strong suit, but I still think that the author here is looking way too deep. I'm not going to discuss it all now... but I will say that I think I would truly enjoy a discussion with the author, she seems a very intelligent person. I definitely like the postscript, though I wonder how we can seriously worry about who has net access when 800 million go to sleep hungry every night. And yet, I worry too...
Okay, more general things:
To close: I think you guys brought up some great points... I've said here only my disagreements. I am a feminist, going by the "women are people too" definition. I recently saw a copy of Bitch, and as soon as I stop being lazy I'm going to subscribe to it, etc. Please don't think me a lumbering heap of testosterone. I welcome any non-flame replies to this, on
Conor
Programmer, Consultant, Geek, CTYer.
Consider fields where the percentages of women and men are closer to even: medicine, chemistry and chemical engineering. Trust me, I have no skill for that stuff, and geez, is that stuff details-loaded! My Mom is the Chief of Cardiology at a hospital in Toronto, and the details of her work are waaay to much for me, a reasonably accomplished programmer with a long resume.
Trust me, the reason many women don't care for computer details is because we've stuck them with too many real-life details that we guys haven't bothered to care for ourselves. Many surveys have shown that women's have considerably less free time than men becuase of the extra societal responsibilities we've chucked onto them.
I'm going to phone Mom right now and thank her for taking care of the details that mattered. I suggest you do the same.
Well, after reading this discussion, I must say that Neal Stephenson was right when he wrote in Snow Crash that techie sexism was the worst kind of all, because it was practiced by guys who thought they were too smart to be sexist.
Same old stuff. The system and the technology and the society somehow conspire to do "it" to "us" whatever "it" and whoever "us" happen to be. Individuals have nothing to do with and don't get to decide any part of their fate I guess? Much of science and technology has been a predominantly male domain for some time. But that is not the fault of science and technology. Nor, imho, will wringing our hands as if it were built into sci/tech or as if we need to rewrite a feminist sci/tech (goddess help us) and some feminists claim, help at all to changing these ratios. They will change as we change as a society but especially as we empower males and females to think fully for themselves and to chart their own life courses.
So, (no offense, just wondering) you think that every guy lusts after you while reading your posts? :)
Actually, it'd be cool to work with "Angela Bennet" (from the movie "the net", I don't remember the name of the actress; she's hot). But I remember the BBS times, there were practically no girls on BBSs. There were also very few Sysops, and they were all fat (I'm talking about Buenos Aires). Internet is different, you find more girs on chat rooms, and there are webmasters, but not a lot of 'coders'. I hate to think of it, but it was harder to log to a BBS (configure the modem, ATDT, etc) than it is to log on a chat room. I think the fact that we are talking about "too many girls" shows that we need more (even if they don't want to/are not encouraged to work on the area), because is boring and ugly to work with a bounch of guys.
BTW, I'm not assuming anything personal about Corrine (since I'm replying directly to your post..:)
--
--
Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
I have read most of the discussions about this. I am a female and a technology geek. The comments about women being so much more inclined and accepted within literature, etc. is the reason that so many women published under pseudonyms. Similarly, women who succeeded when they weren't supposed to, whether it was in sales, management, or science, often used initials, rather than an identifying first name. Today's lifestyles seem to demand more of women while men can afford to concentrate solely on one or two specialties. I know more women than men who are mathmatically and technically proficient. However, the men have more time to spend achieving it.
What is that saying? A woman has to work twice as hard as a man to be thought half as good?
Prairie
Thanks to the person(s) who moderated up Edward's post, and Corrinne's challenge. Since I still don't have any moderator points, time to expose myself.
It was a good challenge. Independently I got up to figuring out $z$ in terms of $x$ and $y$, but being rather weak in ``three-dimensional geometry'' (I'll heartily admit to any mathematical deficiencies after dropping pure maths to become a stats weenie :-)) that was as far as I got.
I would probably ask Corrinne to come up with another problem, but within a day or two this thread might die down. If there are enough interested parties (I might be, despite being a stats student), maybe I can set up a mailing list dedicated to such beasts. Who knows?
Hmmmmm doesn't make any sense to me. Linux, XFree86, KDE, Apache, MacOS X's core, etc are great projects. Let's take a look one of these days and see how much money sys admins saved by using OSS products rather than commercial ones. Don't get me wrong, commercial software has its place.
But I have great hopes for the future, particularly since the Internet provides a great way for women to have careers and be moms. I know a lot of women like myself who want to have careers and not consign their kids to full-time daycare, and actually started a "Techmoms" list for women like myself who have small kids and work from home. ---Lady Blue
I am a woman, web designer / webmistress, with many male geek friends; I work and experiment with computers a lot, both as a job and a hobby.
And -- I like to observe how people interact with computers, how curious they are about them, whether they consider them as a necessary evil or an interesting tool. I don't want to generalize, but most of the women I know don't have the tendency to learn more about the ins and outs of their computers; at best, their machines are just handy instruments that enable them to get rid of some boring standard tasks, so that they can devote more time to other, non-technical things they find more important and satisfying.
Very few choose technical professions. Women -- and research has proven this -- generally tend to dislike jobs that might automatically lead to power positions, hence the minority of females in engineering, law, politics, computer science... and the huge amounts of women choosing 'soft' professions (culture-related, administrative, social sector...). Even in pro-tech (cyber)feminist circles I've observed the tendency towards this 'softer' approach; when tech women get together, they mostly seem to prefer to socialize, and their way of communicating is very different from the way male geeks interact. Again, I don't want to generalize, but it's good to be aware of this almost 'cultural' difference. Computer technology has always been quite 'male centered' in general, and so are the discussions that surround it (/. for example). Women who start using computers are like immigrants in a pretty different cultural surrounding.
That's the situation, whether you like it or not. I don't think it makes much sense to blame anyone for this; women should definitely not be blamed for being slightly disinterested in technology, imho. You cannot force anyone into something s/he does not like or is not ready for; failure of recent (Belgian, but I think this happens elsewhere too) campaigns to encourage women to choose tech professions might prove this -- in 1999 the lowest percentage of Belgian women ever have enrolled in 1st year Computer Science university degree courses.
Another thing: women, in all professional areas, still earn lower wages than men. That's also a real problem, perhaps more serious than women's absence in certain sectors, and something that men have the obligation to be observant about, whether you work in CS, in a medical profession or elsewhere. If you allow me to make some tendentious suggestions: ;)
In order to anticipate feeble jokes: my nickname refers to my last name ;)
Great! Now, if you read what I wrote, you'd see that I said there are female engineers. They're just outnumbered 10:1 or so. So, after reading what I wrote again, for exercise #2, name 6 other females with equivilant skills. For each of those females, you should easily be able to identify 10 males. This is the point I was trying to make.
Forgive me for being "young and naive". Who's discriminating there, eh? I did a 6 year EE/ECE degree too - maybe I'll have to go back, because OBVIOUSLY, I must have missed out on the old boys network. Judging people based on their output instead of sex, damn. I must have fucked up at male training school! Sorry for trying!
I don't start conversations with "geek talk: I'll translate". I'd ask what you've done to make me notice you. Naming a cool C++ project would certainly make my (ears?) perk up.
If you work in an environment that isn't like that, leave. But then again, I'm young and naieve (with male genitalia to boot). YEESH. Those guys sound like high school football alpha males, not linux geeks.
Kudos!
..don't panic
Who cares about fat or ugly woman surfing the net or coding applications. I'll stick to the hot ones in my kitchen cooking me up a steak while I watch the football game. Then i'll give her some $$ to go shopping. Shes happy & I'm happy.
A rhetorical tip for you: citing The Bell Curve as support for your argument is not likely to win you many adherents. That book is one of the most reviled and debunked books in recent memory.
-jacob
Are there any women tech zines out there that are noteworthy? If not, would any one be interested in starting one with me?
If you are, drop me a line - SPAMgtrotta@twcny.rr.comPROOF
My E-mail Address is SPAM PROOF
Hon, if you need a self-reflective monitor to do your makeup maybe you're the one who needs some self-esteem and self-confidence. I don't have to look in the mirror all the time to know I'm good-looking. :-)
The revolution will NOT be televised.
BBB
this may be redundant but who cares..
Please. I'd _kill_ to see more women get involved in what we do (net. engineers, software devel, unix admin, etc). Unfortuantely, this won't happen very quickly for a couple of reasons:
You have to want to excel in a technical subject. Not that women don't, but this requires a focused effort in learning the craft. Now, most girls I've met (and this isn't to slam anyone reading this here, you're obviously not in this group) are more concerned with landing a guy and getting pregnant. Sorry, if you stop to have children in your 20s, you're probably not going to make it here. Kids take a _huge_ amount of your time and energy, and if you want to raise your children properly (instilling them with a good set of morals and a certain degree of respect for everyone, etc), you simply won't have the time to pursue a career in this field. It will just take more time than you have in a given day to do both.
Secondly, given the state of our society, attractive women (and this applies to men, too) don't have to work; the rest of society will pay them, in some form or another, to be beautiful. There's no incentive there to get a clue. (i'm really trying not to be derogatory) When you can stand on a stage and wave your tits around, or if you can get people to pay you for your photograph (don't get me wrong, both can be very lucrative fields, moreso than tech), there's no need to spend time holed up in a cube farm or behind a desk, earning your $35/hr bill rate.
Now, I'm really not slamming the exotic dancer/modelling career fields, as both take some degree of effort (have to stay in shape, and both can be quite time demanding). However, I think that the above are going to be significant reasons why women are slow to become the "movers and shakers" (no pun intended) of the industry. Additionally, I don't think that it will create barriers to entry into the fields, and I think that from a user standpoint, women and men will be about equal.
I just know I'm gonna get flamed for this...
I have been a girl and I am now a woman. I have grown and changed. Truthfully, people place so much importance on gender. Importance should not be placed on gender but people. We are people foremost. People with burgeoning potential.
...what have women really accomplished!
....what happen to education? what happen to adding to the potential? If you are so interesting in creating a comfortable world..Why do it in the slow, careless and less creative way?
However, power and manipulation would rather retract and degrade that potential. It seems that men, not to blame every man out there and I am trying hard not to make a blanket statement, have the cave man mentality that men should be superior above all including woman, child (male or female),
animal, and plant.
This world has perverted the thoughts and notions of many women. Where, even women placed hurdles for their own kith.
You have women who call themselves Feminists. Some of these activists call to women and say "Stand up for yourselves. Be where men are! Do what they do! You have the right to be just like them!"
Why would women want to emulate the thing that has
placed women in a secondary position?
If you see these men dressed in suits, making money, acting arrogant, cutting their friends down because 'its just business', then
To quote Judy Garland -"Always be a first-rate version of yourself, instead of a second-rate version of somebody else."
If women want to go into the computer field it should be encouraged because we do have the gift to think in an alternate way just like men think in an alternate way to us. Also, all in all we each differ in the way we think from one another-human to human.
A multiplicity of ideas and thoughts create such a diversity. How much more of a gift could you ask for? To not only have gifted men working in this field pushing it forward but to have the skills and mind's eye of gifted women as well.
I work in the computer field. Everyday is a loving and wonderful growing experience. I learn so much. My friends (males - 3 LINUX GEEKS to be exact) have taught me things as I have taught them things. We are healthy compeition to one another, but we are all equal. We learn and we develop together. We do not subtract from each other.
I even, with the aide of two other male friends, begun a LUG where I was the only woman. I became surrounded by men. Yes, it was uncomfortable at first, but I had the benefit of learning something new each time I sat down.
It can be difficult for a woman because some men are highly competitive about what they know. It is a shame that in an open source community, that these men would rather keep knowledge and experience from others. You can help others without having to dissolve the ability and status of yourself. I speak this from personally experiencing it from a member within the LUG.
However, I am more and more scared at how women and men are behaving. The women out there care more about being a preening bunch of pigeons as do the men. Clothes. Hairstyles. Cars. Sex. Money.
People are really losing themselves in the whirlwind of fast, patched solutions to complex and evolving issues.
I love computers genuinely I do. I have been a geek since pre-school. I have always opted to hang to with the geek guys because I saw what they did and it was what I wanted to do. I had the want to do something other than being a peacock.
Usually unless it has changed, friends provide development, warmth and encouragement. Those geek guys I love and hang out do all of this. Your friends can be your best resources for many things.
I guess to really sum up my jumbled feelings and thoughts. Be open minded, invite women into the community of geeks, make friends with us --you would truly be impressed to find out what we have to say and what we know...you would also be surprised that we want to learn from you...as wanting to learn from our encounters, adventures, and explorations into the realm of what moves and makes a computer tick.
Oh, well --I love you geek men nonetheless..
SeineThinker --a subject of honest rambling--
--"I don't believe; I know" -Carl Jung
Truth like surgery, may hurt, but it cures. - Han Suyin, Chinese Physician and Writer
If most geniuses are male, and I will cite Albert Einstein as example, right? You wouldn't disagree with me that Albert Einstein was a genius and a formidable human being, right?
Then why would it escape from his mouth that, and I quote --
"Every child is born a genius."
Have you every heard of the words -- potential and kinetic?
E = MC^2
Potential - The inherent ability or capacity for growth, development, or coming into being ; Something possessing the capacity for growth or development.
Kinetic - Of, relating to, or produced by motion.
We all, as human beings, have potential. However, our intelligence comes from being kinetic. It is the choices we make that prosper our intelligence.
Biology simply doesn't can't for the entire makeup of the world let alone Science.
Oh, by the way tests like the Bell Curve cannot account for social conditioning. Read more about Pavlov...You might just learn something, love....
--With Love, Seinethinker
--"I don't believe; I know" -Carl Jung
Truth like surgery, may hurt, but it cures. - Han Suyin, Chinese Physician and Writer
You know, you should register so I can figure out which other poster you are.
Regardless, replying to a post doesn't mean you take it seriously. Debating is one of the best things going. The art of words. And ripping a hole in people's rantings is extraordinarily fun.
Plus, for every guy that makes up crap like this to be funny, there are at least two others that are serious about it. Just look at some of the other brainless posts on this site. I have to admit, this woman is leaving slashdot not to return. It WAS my homepage before this ridiculous series of discussions. Congratulations guys, you've all made the world safe again for deluded male geeks - you've eliminated another woman.
Thus, for example, the fact that women wear dresses and men don't is a gender difference, and not a sexual difference.
The use of the word "gender" in the subject that the article covers is required by the current academic standards relevant to the subject-- they're not talking about biological differences between men and women, but social ones.
---
Who cares about fat or ugly men sitting on their butt watching football games or eating a cholestrol choking steak while sipping cheap beer to advance their beer belly. I'll stick to the geek boys in the basement showing me Perl while I am grooming my kernel. Then i'll give him some help to go about his coding. Hes happy & I'm happy.
--(Before you consider this flamebait, read the original comment)--
SeineThinker ~~Besame mi alma~~
--"I don't believe; I know" -Carl Jung
Truth like surgery, may hurt, but it cures. - Han Suyin, Chinese Physician and Writer
I went to a panel discussion in which six or so scientists eviscerated the book from several different angles, so I think it's safe at least to say that the book's science is controversial. One of the major arguments against Herrnstein & Murray's findings was that you can find the same statistical variances that they found between blacks and whites by comparing many different oppressed ethnic groups to their respective oppressing social groups- evidence that strongly suggests that social forces, not biology, are the real culprit.
-jacob
Believe or not there are heterosexual women interested in:
->kernel hacking
->coding all night long with a bottle of jolt in hand
->drinking coffee from a segfault mug while reading the latest edition coming off the digital presses of Slashdot.org
Not all of us are club hoppers, couch potatoes, shopping fiends...=)
Con Amor y Espiritu, SeineThinker
Truth like surgery, may hurt, but it cures. - Han Suyin, Chinese Physician and Writer
1.A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion.
However, wouldn't you agree that out of obsession have not been the birth of great ideas. Sometimes the unreasonable becomes the reasonable.
A man of great importance was locked up because of his obsession -Galileo
Everyone thought his views were unreasonable and an outright untruth. In the end, he was in fact correct.
Ok...that was my penny for the wishing well.
Con Amor y Espiritu, SeineThinker
Truth like surgery, may hurt, but it cures. - Han Suyin, Chinese Physician and Writer
"If the average IQ (or whatever measure you wish) of a certain group is different from that of another group, that should come as no surprise (in fact, mathematical equality would be an amazing fluke)." Bzzt! Sorry, but wrong. Let's say that the "certain group" I pick is the set of all people in the United States with the letter S in their names, and the "another group" I pick is the set of all people in the United States without the letter S in their names. If it happened that I found that my chosen group did better than my other group, that would be amazing, and would certainly cause a sudden rise in the popularity of "Samson" and "Silas" as baby names for boys. The point is that far from being an amazing fluke if the IQs of the groups were the same, it would actually be an amazing fluke if the numbers were different. The reason why is that it seems utterly implausible that a person's name (specifically, whether or not it has an S in it) could have anything to do with his or her IQ. So the claim, unconditioned, that the average IQ of blacks must be different from the average IQ of whites actually means "there is some relationship between race and performance on an IQ test." It is an easy mistake, and one that the Bell Curve authors encouraged their readers to make, to say then that a person's race must affect his or her IQ, and then further that the IQ differences must be biological. Any decent book on statistics will point out the error inherent in those statements- in fine, it's that correlation is not causation.
Now that we've established some basic laws of statistics, maybe you're in a better position to understand the "liberal equality fantasy." I have never heard anyone argue intelligently that we should assume that all groups are identical. That would not be liberal, it would be stupid. (Yes, there is a difference.) I have heard many liberals argue that many differences between groups, and many great inequalities, exist not because they have to but because of social patterns that favor one group and disfavor another arbitrarily (with respect to ability). Unfortunately, many social illnesses behave like fixed points- that is, the problems cause effects that in turn perpetuate the problems- which makes many people think, "Well, that's just the way it is." Such an attitude is understandable but wrong. That isn't just the way it is, and won't be unless people let it be. From my perspective, then, there isn't a "left-wing equality fantasy" but rather a "right-wing inequality fantasy."
Oh, and since I seem to be the font of rhetoric today, I'll dispense another tip, this one for you: describing liberals as "ranting, raving, and foaming at the mouth [...] fanatics" is about one step above calling them poopy-heads. It is a rhetorical device that is quite unlikely to convince anyone of your point.
-jacob
Amen, sistah! =)
-jacob
I wouldn't be surprised if you were a real female.
...
You certainly don't appear to be a woman nor a lady.
-Obviously by using obtrusive vocalizations, you think you have really earned yourself brownie points. You definitely try to use a bounty of big words to describe an infinitely small view. A salute or rather a congrats to the REAL FEMALE that you are....!!
Are you more afraid of yourself than us? Who is but in pain but you my love? We do not need something 'cosmetic': Something superficial that is used to cover a deficit or defect.
We lack nothing but our humble ideals and wishes for a better future. Obvious, your best wishes for the future are die with a tight,wrinkle free face and a flat fanny!
We are the real people? Who are you?
Ps. You really think that chat rooms are composed of real people?
...so sorry grasshopper...you do not learn lesson..life..not revolve around a big head...life revolve around small pebble
Con Amor y Espiritu, SeineThinker
Truth like surgery, may hurt, but it cures. - Han Suyin, Chinese Physician and Writer
The poster didn't make me angry, just made me feel the strong need to point out that he or she had a misconception as to what liberal thinkers think- a misconception that I think you might share. That people are all identical with respect to ability- that every single person has the same abilities as every other person- is obviously false. If you're born with no arms you clearly got a worse deal than your two-armed brothers and sisters. I am a fairly liberal guy (where "fairly liberal" means that I'm the sort of person Rush Limbaugh would want to burn at the stake), and I've heard a lot of liberal intellectuals argue, and I've never heard anyone seriously argue that all children are born identical with respect to abilities. What I have heard many times is that there's a very strong social component to success that often gets ignored by people who benefit from unfair social systems. It is easier to imagine, as The Bell Curve did, that black people are inferior as a race than to imagine that there could be a big invisible system that all of us participate in that is reflected even in IQ tests. But being easier to imagine doesn't make it true- for a plausible and very interesting alternative, read this article by a noted psychologist (I've posted the same link elsewhere on this topic, but it's really interesting and therefore worth repeating).
-jacob
The only statistical point that I was trying to make was that his argument (roughly summarized, that any subgroup will have different averages than the larger population) is exactly the opposite of the case.
Incidentally, since Asians make up such a tiny percentage of the country, and since there do exist Asians with the letter 'S' in their names (I have a friend named Soumendra, and one whose last name is Subramanian), I imagine that effect wouldn't be substantial, and you'd find that there would be no significant correlation between 'S' and IQ. And, more importantly, if you did, that would not imply causation.
-jacob
Just for the record: (my /. posting skills seem to have eclipsed my english writing ability.)
What I meant to say is that fewer women were enrolling and graduating. I'm not sure about whether or not more are dropping out, but I know the article said there are fewer graduates.
How many times are there female superheros? As a child (and I am female), I rember watching things like He-Man, transformers, X-men, and others. I even remeber briefly watching My little pony, so I didn't always watch shows that were directly aimed at boys. But if you look at the superhero's, then okay, She-Ra was neat, but for some reason He-Man was always cooler. They put a lot more work in to that cartoon than She-Ra, his toys sold better, and more people watched it. And I don't really remeber a single female transformer, (the original ones, not the ones out now). Then (and that was the 80's) almost always the guy superhero had better powers, neater toys, and in general better stuff.
Call me a tom boy when I was younger, so what? I went out and played with boys becuase there weren't that many girls my age in my neighboorhood. So I went out and climbed trees, played with tonka trucks (they were a friend of mine's though), and even played baseball with my friends (and yes, I sucked at it, but I played outfield, so it never mattered that much. However, I still had fun).
How many times do we start out boys with trucks and girls with dolls? I didn't want or get barbies, until I found a female friend that was my age, and I still played with the boys a lot. Oddly enough, in a recent day care study, the girls almost always went for the dolls, and the boys went for toys like trucks.
A possible correlation for the study that "males are better at math and social skills, while women are better at communication" goes back to the cave days. Men were out hunting, and since part of hunting is waiting for food to arrive. Spatial skills and eventually math skills developed and were encouraged from that. Woman who gathered food and stayed to take care of the children, had better communication skills by staying around other women, etc.
A lot of what we do is a result of society, and what our parents teach us. I loved science as a kid, and I was encouraged in it. One of my female friends in school played with dolls more often than I did, so what? She started out with the internet before I did, and she could code better than I could if she wanted to (she chose to go into the radio industry).
Another thing is, she had a computer (which was up to date) more often than I did. I know very little about hardware beucase I didn't get a decent desktop computer at an early age, and i can't quite afford one yet. (I have a laptop due to college requirements). I admit I had a pc jr, and a commodore 64 when I was 8 or younger, but plodding along as a early teen with a tandy with a 5 1/4 disk drive, when other ppl have a computer with a 3 1/2 disk drive and windows capability doesn't help much.
I love deadlines. I like the "whoosh" sound they make as they fly by. -- Douglas Adams
first of all, i'm a geek chick and linux goddess-in-training, and *proud* of it. im' not saying it's *easy*. its *not*. but... anyways, this is a college essay i just finished writing for my MIT application. thought this might be an appropriate place to dump it... :)
i know it's long, kind of rambling, but if you've got too much free time on your hands like i do, take a look
(this is my first-ever slashdot post, bear with me please)
the question was:
Tell us about an opinion that you have had to defend or an incident in your life which placed you in conflict with the beliefs of a majority of people and explain how this affected your value system.
and here's what i had to say about that:
One of my strongest beliefs--and one that is consistently challenged--is my belief (if not my mantra) that girls can be *just* as tech-savvy and computer-competent as guys.
I've considered myself a 'computer geek' for a long time. I love computers and spend most of my free time working with them. My affinity for computers has always seemed perfectly natural to me.
However, a huge number of people are surprised that a *girl* would be interested in computer science! My average conversation is this:
Person: "What do you want to study in college?"
Me: "Computer science, specializing in graphics and animation."
Person: (Says nothing. Looks at me as if I have suddenly grown a third eye.)
My interest in computers puzzles many people. I explain that although CS has *traditionally* been male-dominated, and although females are in the minority (about 20%), girls *can* be very successful in this field.
My greatest critics, those who give me the most difficulty, are the CS-type guys. It'd be logical to think they would *encourage* me! However, exactly *two* of my fellow "geeks" think it's *cool* that a girl is into CS. The rest give me looks of disbelief and condescending comments as they say--directly or through actions--that computers are "their" thing and I could not *possibly* be as good as they.
I was at school the other day, working with five other students to set up a Linux box. Three of the guys have run Linux at home for years, three of us (a guy; a tech-savvy female friend; and me) had never touched Linux before. Our nominal leader was carrying on a technical conversation with the other two Linux-users. Any time the other girl or I asked him a question, he responded "Never mind, you wouldn't understand". If the freshman *guy* asked a question, our "leader" would take the time to patiently explain the answer.
Yet if girls can't "do" computers, why did everyone come running to *me* whenever there was a computer problem or a question about PowerPoint in my history class? (We all had to do presentations as a final project.) they didn't go to the guys. even the *guys* came to *me*, because I was the best.
Even though I'm occasionally given credit, I experience bias on a nearly daily basis. I know this is due in part to the way people have been raised--traditionally girls aren't "supposed" to be good at math/science fields. And some of the guys feel threatened that girls are taking over "their" area. Some really just do think they're better. I But I refuse to let their attitudes get to me. I may not be "supposed" to be good or interested... but I am, so I just continue to do what I always have, regardless of what people say. CS is not just a guy's field. It's anyone's field. and now it's *mine*.
We are in a world of constant communications. A world in which the movement of voice, data and image is now the essential component that defines the way we relate to each other as individuals, as enterprises and as societies. The world is smaller and the possibilities are larger.Yet,communication remains what it has always been the reaching from one person to another or to millions. In the make-or-break moments when time and money is critical,that's when our clients recognize the full measure of our commitment and our attitude. A companies ability to offer quality and excellence lies in its people. People are your foremost asset and your business philosophy should be based on team management, accessibility and respect for the entire team including women. Nurturing and sustaining long-term relationships with your best customers is where you'll find the real profits. Customers want increased levels of personalization and learning how to manage this virtual conversation is the key to the kind of relationship with customers that will will drive increased value exchange and loyalty. The only way to guarantee 100% customer satisfaction is through the application of a comprehensive customer relationship solution. The result is a business recognized and valued for its superior products, services and most importantly the powerful relationships it has fostered among customers and all employees. As the 21st century fast approaches, more and more companies are entering the global arena. Businesses must overcome the global barriers of languages, time zones, different currencies, and large geographic areas. In the '90s, we have learned that sustainable profit and growth comes from loyal customers. Measuring and rewarding people for retaining and growing customers versus acquiring new customers is a major cultural and economic shift for most companies to obtain. Jimmy Castro Member Greater Austin Chamber of Commerce Austin Texas JimmyCastro@Hotmail.com
*evil grin*
I'll even shed my elusiveness(for a little bit) and show up for this one.
I'm not exactly a TTB but I am adept in the fields of contest and I am willing to offer my services as referee/official.
>;)
-Veldrane
no thanks, I already ate (:
It should also be pointed out that new terms and ideas are more likely to be noticed by the conscious brain when you first learn them. Hence, if a friend points out that he naturally has redhair, you'll notice more redheads the rest of the week. kind of a subliminal mark on you.
--
Gonzo Granzeau
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
I am trying to talk Chromatic to try to talk our Hemos crew into starting a spanking new math /. (moderation and everything).
:)
I enjoy (with high enough moderating setting) the good stream of computing-related information and "community."
Since I am a bigger math-nut, than a code-nut, it would be nice to have such an active mathematics community as well.
Get all your friends who may be interested to either petition Hemos and company, or just start our own.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Silly.
:)
I have already written several 3D engines already.
Some of them are in fact software rasterizers, without the benefit of 3D acceleration.
It is not just me. The very beautiful blond Ms. Kate Seekings was founder of Rendermorphics, which is a 3D API.
No, neither Ms. Seekings nor me have as much money as Carmack, et. al, nor are we as famous.
We have the technical respect of each other and other people who love coding for the sake of coding.
If fame or wealthy happens for some, that's great.
Since neither I nor her did it for fame or wealth, we "women" who wrote 3D engines already (probably more engines than you had) could care less.
As for the bait, I am just trying to tease more math-nuts into having math chats with me.
I use math for work.
I also love math for its own sake.
It would be hard for me to drop the habit of striking new friendships with math-nuts and code-nuts.
I don't have a social life, and I don't care. I care that every little and big piece of code I write is good. I care I have a fun life coding and thinking about math.
Either you are a math-nut or code-nut and we have fun. Or not.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
I am a do do head (ouch and give ammo to women are do do's!)
I just realized Jonathan is on my/our side, "flaming" the anon coward.
Sorry, Jonathan for my resp to your resp. Of course you know about us, and Kate, and the rest of us.
FYI, Jonathan definitely is "within our/Kate's peerdom."
He is lead prog of the open sourced very well-structured Golgotha 3D engine code from Crack.
He is one of many "unsung" intelligent contributors to our 3D game engine coding world. Not as rich, not as famous, but very smart, and very competent.
Here is to another good coder, though he is not female.
Good luck to your current proj.
P.S. And your challenge of "engine" is meant to be of course Corrinne have a better chance at winning this than this anon coward, not the other way around.
You gave me kudos, and I slam/flame you. Bad bad corrinne.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Reality is sexist. The primary purpose served by promulgating "antisexist" morals is to eliminate the capacity for moral impressionability from the genepool.
Seastead this.