try67 (and many others) wrote to tell us Mozilla Milestone 13 was made available yesterday. Check the release notes
here. You'll see full builds for Linux, Win32, and Mac OS 8.5. And the source, of course. This is the long-awaited Mozilla Alpha version. Have fun!
Slashdot Mirror
Lovely suggestion. Glad it works fine for you. Unfortunately, I don't much care, unless you're offering me the use of your computer. If that's the case, get in touch with me and I'll give you details for shipping it to me...
You can FINALLY get rid of that dang sidebar (view menu, uncheck sidebar)
Properly coded pages actually look better (for the most part) than they do in IE5. Slick.
CSS is done well.
Crashes FAR less often than M12 on my P2-333 64megs, Win98 box. Haven't tried it under Linux yet.
Bad:
Font Prefs aren't done yet (I want sans-serif by default, dangit!)
"Theme" selector not done yet (Really, I just want to get some win-standard chrome rather than the "Mozilla" interface)
Still crashes more than NS 4.7 (but it's getting close!)
Back button intermittant (This just ain't right)
Overall - not too shabby for a 1st alpha. I would've liked to see all the prefs panels actually be functional, but this release does indeed show that Mozilla is "getting there".
Nice job to all involved.
What are you smoking? Here's a number for ya... go to this site. What is standard about the tag "meta http-equiv="Site-Enter" content="revealTrans(Duration=6.0,Transition=1)""? ??
IIRC their DOM is not W3C either. Embrace, extend, lather, rinse, repeat.
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
Plus, the stupid FullCircle program won't let me explain to it that it needs to go through a proxy that requires a password!
I am less than impressed with M13, and at the rate of improvement that I have seen, Mozilla won't be useful until about M30...
A pity, since I'd love to see Mozilla win....
www.eFax.com are spammers
There's a bug filed on this. None of the developers save one can seem to reproduce it at all (and the one who can only sees it intermittently). As soon as they figure out the problem, it'll be fixed. And yes, it is a regression from M12, according to the comments on that bug (I don't have the bug number on me, sorry).
Many people would consider not supporting LiveScript and plugins an enhancement.
It was a requirement for M12, that *if* your msvcrt.dll and msvcirt.dll were *below* 8.0.8168.0, you needed to run the installer (.exe) to update them. Otherwise you would crash (http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19165 ). Many non-bugs were reported on this issue (oh .. *those* release notes ... me too? Yes, you. ;-))
This is *no* longer a requirement in M13, the code was changed to avoid the crash. The installer will not upgrade these dlls (it's no longer required).
oh i know, if u r too quick on the favourites menu you'll get an empty one
Try Open SSL. The web site doesn't seem to be accessible at the moment, but the FTP site is. Good luck integrating it into Mozilla. :)
Well, nobody ever said Netscape was standards compliant. Mozilla is, and once it becomes popular, maybe you won't have to use those anymore ;)
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
You know, someone has managed to build rel 12 on Solaris. Pull the binaries rel 12, everything was documented in README file. You need to have GTK libraries. I'm not sure if you need GCC 2.95.2 or something like 2.7 or 2.8 would work. If you really want to do your own build, try to go through the same procedure. I've tried rel 12 on Sol 7. Incredibly fast rendering engine. The fonts were tiny, couldn't change them with pull-down menus. Browsed fine for about 20 minutes, then crashed.
i guess i'll wait until the next release, at least this new one didn't crash the computer this time.
Well do what I do, use WWWoffle to go through your proxy and point mozilla/netscape's proxy settings at localhost. It all has the added benefits of no more proxy authourising as it's all done automatically.
FYI: Beta follows alpha, so a future milestone could be declared a beta version, not the reverse. Also note that the mozilla milestone chart lists (roughly) monthly milestones, so that M19 at the bottom should not be construed as a potential release or even beta version.
A Gecko ActiveX control has been produced, but I don't see it in the Win32 M13 distribution (I'm not sure why; I was hoping it would be there). However, it is intended as a swappable replacement for the IE control. While Netscape hasn't commented on the shape the eventual branded release will take, my guess is that they will use the themable XUL base that Mozilla has built, rather than revert to being a solid Windows app with an ActiveX renderer.
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
>As a marketing guy it is my JOB to dictate technology.
Your *JOB*?
Your JOB may be that...but you are asking the OpenSource community to listen to you.
Exactly HOW do you intend to influence them? Money? Fame? Saying that if they invest thousands of hours of their life so a browser/OS becomes marginally faster and less stable? (When, if they want more speed, they can go buy a faster computer with more memory for less of an investment than the code changes)
>but trust me we in marketing know what sells and that's the bottom line.
Trust me, the bottom line matters. And free at $0 for 250 boxes VS $400 for 250 boxes makes a decision easy.
>My corporation believes that Linux has the potential to become the next "Pokemon".
Well, the cats out of the bag.
(background singers in ()'s and a jamacian accent)
Each time a Linux distro is mentioned, a picture of the box is flashed on the screen.
Now on Kids WB
Got install them all
Got install them all
(linuxmon)
Red hat
Turbo linux
SuSE
Zentropics
(linxmon!)
Storm
Corel
Debian
Mandrake
(at least 150 or more to install
to be a linux distro geek is my destiny!)
Slackware
OpenLinux
mklinux
stampede
Watch next time as Taco, Hermos and Roblimo
continue their quest to become linux distro masters.
You got to install them all!
(install, install)
(got to install them all, linuxmon)
(install, install)
(got to install them all, linuxmon)
(install, install)
(got to install them all. linuxmon!)
The collectable cards you can buy, but you can also download and printout the cards, or just photocopy them and use them in sanctioned play. (the GPL strikes again)
Player 1: I choose RedHat!
Player 2: And I choose Corel, because the blue box more powerful against red boxes.
Player 1: Ok, you beat my RedHat, so I choose FreeBSD!
Player 2: Hey, I didn't think we were able to use Linux compatible modes in the battle! No fair!
Player 1: No, I'm using the optional GPL licence compatibilty rules.
Player 2: you are truly a Linux Distro master. I yeild.
Emmet: Opens Transmeta PDA
"Hi I'm Dexter, your LinuxDex."
Emmet: "What kind of linux distro is that?"
"Scanning hard drive...RedHat 6.1, the evolved form of RedHat 5.2. Its more powerful packaging includes the RPM, Deluxe and Professional release sets."
And with your Linuxball you can keep only 6 CDs in it, other CD's are left at the office or home.
Good luck on your plans. *waves fingers bye-bye*
Go for the name LinuxMon!
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Make sure you all go to Microsoft with moziila... lets have fun with their weblogs :)
MS never releases completed software. They're in a constant state of 'Public Beta'. ;) It's just unfortunate that it's a public beta one has to pay to get in.
--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
"People will pay big bucks for the luxury of ignorance."
view -> sidebar (boolean toggle)
that's funny, i had no problems with {necko,mscvrt}.dll... i did get this:
JavaScript Error: TypeError: treeitem.getAttribute is not a functionURL: chrome://related/content/related-panel.js
LineNo: 216
Segmentation fault (core dumped).
also doesn't work with linux (Cordless Wheelman Mouse).
(darren)
So it is with this (maximized market share) in mind that I offer this small piece of advice. MOZILLA MUST BE TIED TO THE LINUX KERNEL ASAP.
Just in case you didn't catch that, I repeat: MOZILLA MUST BE TIED TO THE LINUX KERNEL ASAP.
My logic is irrefutable, and I will prove it: So long as Mozilla is available on the WinTel platform, and not exclusivly on Linux, there is no reason to ditch Microsoft. Every time a Windows user downloads a windows version of Mozilla, a potential consumer for Linux is lost forever.
From a marketing perspective this is a classic manoever. It worked wonders for Microsoft in their battle with Netscape, if could be just the thing to bring Linux to the mainstream, and achieve revenues for RedHat, Suse, SlackWare and Debian, like they have never seen before. The VAResearch IPO will look like small change once Linux achives total penetration of the domestic marketplace.
The only thing holding it back now is the inability of the Linux developers (most of whom are long-haired left-wing idealogues) to react to market requirements.
The market demands the OS be dependant on the browser. Who do these elitist zealots think they are to query the absolute wisdom of the free market ?
Get with the program guys.
Here is my admittedly non-techno savvy view of how to do it.
1) Make Mozilla independent of XFree86 (e.g. a native SVGA version). Or at the very least turn it into an ICCCM-Compliant window manager. Then we can put an end to the futile GNOME/KDE/fvwm95/twm/olvm holy-wars once and for all, and new Linux users need not be confronted with the 18 different ways of specifying resources to X11.
2) Make sure the graphics subsystem runs in the kernel space as it does in NT. This will give blistering performance (at the expense of a little bit of stability, but the market has spoken on that subject already - it doesn't care about reboots).
3) er - thats it.
I'm really sorry, but I'm curious why it has a Score 5 (I'm not bitching, I just want to know why it's so funny :P)
I wont be able to until the AOL/Microsoft deal is over. I think in 2001 the five year deal AOL had with MS making IE the browser for AOL in exchange for AOL shipping with Windows.
I can GUARANTEE that once the deal is over, the newest version of AOL will be using Mozilla.
who are you talking to? anyway IE 4.5 doesn't load itself at boot actually, unless i was to put it into the startup items folder
Follow this link
Right click on your mouse button on the main text area to the right of the picture so that the back menu pops up. The menu appears on the left side of the page instead than where your mouse is.
P.S Do actually try the link before moderating this post down as a troll.
There is a known bug #18110 and #21556 (dup) which wastes mozilla on SMP machines. I had to stop testing the nightly builds because it was so unstable on my dual PII 400 system. I'm still waiting for this to be resolved. I'm not sure if this affects you but it is out there.
I think that mozilla is a waste of time to download. It is a poor program that has limited features, Infact I don't even know why that the topic is on here...
-This was brought to you by THE MAC
...so to modify IE5 you have to write a completely new shell for it? I think he was referring to some minor tweaks that would make it more useful, not rewriting anything.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
But when will a Win32 API based Netscape using Gecko be released?
Typical american:
Priorities:
Market/Money
Myself
...
...
...
(maybe) God
everything else.
I *hate* this attitude.
> Linux + Mozilla + Transmeta = Kick Ass Web Device
StrongARM has lower power consumption than the Crusoe, and has better I/O characteristics.
This is the mirror list of ftp.mozilla.org mirrors. I checked the nearest mirror to me, it was up to date; so don't /. the main ftp server :-)
Take a look at this bug for more info about the scrolling problem with Logitech mice. The reason is the Logitech program em_exec.exe. There's a few workarounds listed on that page, and the bug is still open, so there probably will be a permanent fix.
Actually, IE 5.5 is the most standards-compliant browser in existence. It has full support for ECMAscript, and the HTML 4.0 spec is almost fully implemented. Microsoft is also doing pretty well with the XML standard. The villain when it comes to corrupting WEB standards is Netscape, not Microsoft. I have heard that the version of Konquerer that will ship with KDE 2.0 is very standards-compliant as well. Mozilla is doing a great job of implementing HTML 4.0 and XML, and its layout engine is fantastic, but don't slam MS without knowing the facts!
Opinions change daily as new information arrives. Stay tuned.
maybe they would... until u come to a site that needs javascript support inable to use it. until then i can't use iCab 100% of the time but a new version should be out soon?
I'm using M13 under NT right now, and even though it doesn't render Apple's home page correctly (the tabs are off to the right), everything else seems pretty good. Bookmark editing is broken, but I can surf without crashes (so far).
-jon
Remember Amalek.
i got it too, on one of my own homepages... so i was not very impressed =D
Hello all,
I think mozilla will be important vor many other developements related to the internet. XML comes to mind here. When a good decent standards-compliant browser is freely available for all platforms, things can start rolling!
First, i'll try my newly downloaded mozilla, then I'll read your thoughts upon this subject.
greetings,
Reinout
Reinout van Rees
Whereas another helpful mozilla comment I posted was moderated down as off topic.
I dont think moderation does anything, theres a rand() call somewhere.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
Oh God. The moderators are on crack.
:(
:(
Time to start M2'ing again
Does someone want to mark this post above me as Underrated? We've got an idiot moderator loose on these threads
Just downloaded it now. It's working a hell of a lot better than previous releases, so if you were put off by it a while back, give it another go!
Note to Win32 users: You must grab the install version, as there's a few library files that need to be bang up to date which the normal version can't fix.
In the View menu, the second item is "Sidebar", with a check by it. Select it to turn it off.
---
Hand me that airplane glue and I'll tell you another story.
Since Cmdr. Taco reinterpreted it to turn our websites into slashdot advertisements.
Am I the only one thinking (after having read the release notes) that the mozilla team might benefit from focusing slightly differently? I mean, they make a browser with an integrated editor and mail/news functionality, but with stop and back-buttons that quote:"fails intermittently"??
However, I have tested it on a site that uses layer hiding/showing and it does not show/hide the layers ... at all :(
Still, this looks and feels really nice, and will use it to browse sites without layers.
Keep up the good work.
Well, I'm not about to hit a www.victoriassecret.com link through the company network. I have my Ricochet modem here on my 'Book, but I haven't installed M13 on it yet, so I can't test it that way.
However, I don't think what you're describing is anything specific to that link. I'm seeing the same behavior with contextual menus in a frame on some of our pages (for an intranet application that I'm working on): the page has a left and right frame. When I try to use it in the right frame, the contextual menu comes up to the left of my mouse, by what looks like exactly the width of the left frame. When I do it in the left frame, it comes up correctly. It looks like it's getting the mouse coordinates relative to the frame I'm in and then forgetting to convert when placing the menu in the parent window's coordinate system.
All right, now I've tried it on the included frame test page (Debug->Viewer Demos->#9 Frames). The behavior seems pretty consistent across all the frames, sub-frames, etc., and I'm pretty sure it's because of a missing coordinate conversion. Spacecraft have been lost this way, you know.
By the way, this is on a G4 Mac with MacOS 9. I've noticed two other things about contextual menus, which are probably Mac-specific: first, it only appears when I Control-click; click-and-hold does not bring it up -- control-click is the standard Mac way for it to work, but Communicator 4.x also had it with click-and-hold, even before contextual menus were added in MacOS 8. Also, I have to click once to bring up the menu, then click the selection -- I can't do it in a single click-and-drag movement; that just selects text on the window.
All in all, though, I'm very impressed with this build. If it could only log in to Slashdot, it would probably become my default browser. As it is, I'll probably be using it a lot for reading Slashdot, because of the incremental rendering of tables -- on a slow modem, multi-hundred-KB pages with TABLE tags wrapped all the way around them are extememly painful otherwise, because nothing can be displayed until everything has loaded. This renders Slashdot just about perfectly, and it finally lets me see comments as they load.
David Gould
David Gould
main(i){putchar(340056100>>(i-1)*5&31|!!(i<6)<< 6)&&main(++i);}
I run all manners of i686 builds for various software (including Mozilla) on my K6-450. I've had no trouble with that.
Go ahead and download it. It should work. If you want, just get the source and compile it from scratch.
do you not think your target demographic will be turned off by an exact listing of price? would they not prefer to have to 'visit your local dealer' and 'develop a relationship' or something like that? the price out there like that is so crass, so low-class. another idea.. the name.. you need to call it something without 'linux' in the name. Perhaps something greek since most of these people took liberal arts degrees and know about that classical shit.. maybe Archon or Sparta or Stoix or some shit like that. Aesctix, Cynix, antything but 'linux'. Synix. Synos. Lesbos. Who cares.
Hrm looks pretty neat. Shouldn't actually be that hard to intercept CoCreateInstance at runtime using DLL injection and actually have Explorer/Winamp etc use Mozilla.
:).
See, Netscape could have done their own 'web integration' like Microsoft but they chose whine to the goverment >:|.
I think i'll play
I have to tell you that your remarks about Netscape and Linux just don't reflect very well on your skills and diligence. I have Netscape4.7 sessions that go for days without crashing on Linux. (rh6.1 ns 4.7 (irix session management.)) Also Netscape 4.61 packaged for Debian. There are issues with libc5 versions of Netscape run on libc6 distros. There are advisories about distributions with improperly packaged 75dpi fonts (rh6.0), causing Java to set fire to your swap file. There are notes for setting your MOZILLA_HOME variable in ~/.bashrc in case your netscape packages are installed outside your $PATH. In short there are specific, known issues -AND- there are things you can do about them, if you have trouble and aren't afraid to read a bit. What's more there are fixed versions in updates directories for some distros. No effort required, or next to none. I've had the troubles you've had, Spudnic, but it's been months since I fixed them, with help from Redhat's package maintainers and Netscape coders, also I assume. That's on the Linux side.
At present the only help for Netscape on Win-NeinX seems to be to deinstall Internet Destroyer with the aid of 98lite or ieRemove, which is advisable for security and performance issues anyway. Then things improve markedly for netscape. Don't ask me why that's so -- go ask Bill Gates & Steve Ballmer, or rather their lawyers since they seem to be the only MS employees qualified to speak on such matters lately. Is Netscape4.x exemplary programming? I expect it's far from that. But the oooh it just doesn't work whine is crap, OK?, and as time goes by gets on my nerves more and more. Says a lot more about the complainer than the product IMO.
Proudly posted with Mozilla M13 (which didn't crash once during the composition of this harangue).
A few quick things despite this thread's age.
Native system widgets CANNOT BE USED FOR A WHOLE LOT OF LAYOUT due to W3C specifications. They are just NOT the right thing for the job. Deal.
Yes the interface on the mac is probably going to suck for a while. Perhaps forever.
**THE USER INTERFACE IS COMPLETELY MUTABLE BY YOU!**
Read the release notes before talking about replacing X11.
Yes it crashes. Yes it's slow. Yes it's NOT DONE YET.
No it doesn't need to be 'pared down like icab'. Icab is icab. Mozilla is mozilla. Learn why they made the technology decisions they did and starting THINKING about the problemspace these products are addressing.
Most previous versions of Netscape had email clients and news readers and stuff.
AOL is probably going to spend around $100,000,000 on mozilla development all said and done. Perhaps MUCH more. You have paid $0.00. Netscape 5 is their product. Mozilla is yours. Bitch accordingly.
Internet Explorer 5's implementations of HTML4, CSS1, XML, and the DOM are broken according to specifications. Mozilla's generally are not.
Mozilla NEVER PROMISED CSS2 and will probably not deliver on it.
Finally, for the severely clue impaired, MOZILLA CODE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NETSCAPE CODE. AT ALL.
Toodles.
-troll taker
Yep, do some free work for the largest media company in the world....
Why not? It'll be a nice little break from doing free work for all the other Linux-exploiting corporations like Red Hat, VA Linux, and Caldera. If Red Hat's so rich, why aren't they paying Linus?
Does IE5 crash my box every 10 minutes?
If your box is crashing every ten minutes, then there is something wrong with your box, not your browser.
Since you are using IE5, I would assume you are using Windows. That might be your problem, right there.
With a good OS, a bad application cannot and will not bring down your whole system.
Now, I'm not saying Mozilla is bug free, but if it can take down your whole system, you've got much bigger problems then a bad browser.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Uh, could you explain this to me, please? I think I'm too dense to understand it. In other words: why is it not possible to use GTK widgets to render inside forms?
(there is one thing that occurs to me: is the problem related to the fact that you can't put widgets inside a canvas or drawing area?)
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
I dunno about more stable than 4.7. I downloaded a daily snapshot about a week ago -- have they fixed the problem where you cannot open any additional windows? (I forget what exactly it said, but the counter in the log keeps incrementing while no additional windows, i.e. open location, file, preferences will open).
:)
Plus, for some very strange reason, Alt-O and/or Alt-L (whichever one was open location) worked about 10% of the time.
Those were pretty much my only quirks. If they've been fixed in the past week, I'll use it
(note, this was in the Linux version. I'm happy with N4.7 + IE5 in Windows)
_____________________
It's a feature. The Mozilla people have evidently decided that they're too good to use native widgets...
Actually, it really is a feature.
In order to embed UI widgets in an HTML document (as Mozilla needs to do to fully support the W3C's DOM and CSS), they had to write their own widget set. Native widgets simply didn't work for them.
How many times are we going to see this gripe before people figure it out?
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Replying to my earlier post using M13 now.
:)
Proves persistance pays.
This is second try though, last time I tried to reply using M13 (I was typing that it hadn't even crashed on me) it crashed. My own fault for temptiong fate.
I just wanted to add:
Speed....... slow. (but so is IE here)
Rendering... Needs improvement, but can live with it for now.
Overall summary: If at first you don't succed, try try again. And if you do you'll just maybe be impressed.
Yo! Why was this post moderated up? It has 5 dead obvious points, then one attrocious, hateful, and just plain wrong! point. C++ does not suck you wanabee assembely coder! When done right, C++ can be very elegant. When done wrong (as it apparently is in Mozilla) C++ can bloatware heaven. Since Mozilla apparently has bloat designed into it, I doubt C++ has an effect on the size. For example, X and Linux are coded in C, and BeOS is coded in C++. Which is more elegant? BeOS of course. But that has nothing to do with language used. BeOS would be more elegant in C too, just with the OO API. It all in the design. BeOS is new and has an entirely focused design, and Linux kind of evolved, and has less of a central design. Thus Linux is more bloated, even with its C heritage. (BTW its no offense to Linux, but BeOS is just cleaner if for nothing more than the fact that its 20 years younger than *NIX and that 100 guys designed the whole thing)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Yeah, nice little browser. Speedy, renders attractively. The no plug in thing kind of sucks. I'm curious what would make it display a happy face though - nothing - not even www.w3.org - is getting anything besides a frown. Waaaaah.
I've had a cordless wheelman mouse working under linux since m12. Don't know why yours doesn't work.
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
Have you tryed your web pages with Mozilla?? Just curious if they appear as they should.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
My bad; I guess they're being nice about the linking back thing. Now I have nothing left to flame about. What am I going to do with all this extra time?
You know, just as you can have Navigator without mail/news (branded as Navigator) or with (branded Communicator). If you are able to compile Mozilla yourself (pun intended), just use configure --without-mail-news (just from memory, dont't quote me on that).
--
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
Just downloaded it (had to find an x86 Linux box around - is it supposed to be Linux-only thing???), started it from Linux setting DISPLAY back to my Solaris box and did not see any essential differences from previous releases - it is still unusable. Fonts are to small, it can not use private colormap, so I do not have any colors, widgets are ugliest I have ever seen and overlap each other. Tried to browse a web page, just page without even frames - the result was very strange... IMHO, the project has totally failed. is not it obvious?
Doggoneit, everything up to M10 worked all right on my (Win95) system. Only problem was that underlines on buttons had a tendancy to extend past the text that was underlined (in some cases past the buttons).
But both M12 and M13 absolutely refuse to run on my system. This most recent release displays an error message about loading prefwind.dll on the console display, and then crashes as soon as the "next" button is pushed in the "create new user" window (exception 10H in MSVCRT.DLL).
Anyone have any ideas? I ran the installer like the release notes said (to update the DLLs), and it hasn't made any difference. I would really like to be able to get away from using IE on this system (and not because of any zealotry, I just don't like the way IE works).
see bugzilla 18110... the xpcomm/proxy component has some thread safety issues... they've pushed this out from m12 to m13 and recently to m14... at this rate mozilla will never run on multiprocessors. I'd encourage those of you with mp boxes and bugzilla votes to spare to add them to the collection... or if you have the skills and the time go join the project and help fix the problem.
Oh, yeah, IE is slow as hell, too.
Hrm, IE is a lot faster then m11, don't know about 12/13 though. Presuebly beacuse there using debugging binarys, rather then optimized ones...
Amber Yuan (--ell7)
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
If you click on the face, it'll give you a little rundown of what it found wrong with the site, IIRC. Also, on their web page, they have a bunch of links to sites that show happy faces...
--Arcum
At any rate, I stand corrected. In my favor, I can say that I started wondering about it, went and read the release notes in full, then wandered back in here to eat a little crow. Thanks for setting me straight. :)
(Posted with M13/Win95.)
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Typical non-american:
...
...
...
Can't recognize satire.
Has a bone up his ass about americans.
Likes to share that bone with anybody who will listen.
Said ass-bone is based entirely upon envy.
Is laughed at by americans when they bother to notice him.
REALLY can't recognize a hilarious troll post on slashdot.
All it would take to make me think Netscape is better than IE would to do just that; Make Netscape better than IE. Netscape is just plain pitiful. I know at least on Linux it crashes at least a couple of times a day, and is quite buggy. And the bookmark system in Netscape is much more complicated than in IE (as in making a bookmark in IE lets you decide what to call it and where to put when you make it. In Netscape you have to bookmark it, then go and edit it in a badly designed bookmark management system dialogue. Not even Mozilla fixes that which really disappoints me). And IE supports more HTML, even if it is "IE-only" tags and options, it still looks better and performs better than Netcape. IE also just looks cleaner and less clunky. Finally IE is faster in Windows than Netscape. So if Netscape can pull of a better browser, maybe they can get back their market share. Mozilla is in the right direction, but since it's in pre-release, I can't say which is better.
The Case For A Happy Dance
1. M13 finally works with a proxy
2. Lots of bugs ironed out
3. Shows some real promise.Some aspects of speed are very snappy, others - well, not so.
4. A piece of code I can work on!
5. Open source aspects seem to be picking up - lots of external folks mentioned in the CVS logs. Hooray!
The Case For Despair ... well ... not done, to be charitable.
1. A whole team of code shuckers, plus lots and lots of outside eyeballs, and the result after (a long time - I want to say 2 years, but don't want to do the research to verify) is
2. Inscrutable code. C++ just sucks. Walk through some of the code and try, just try, and grasp some semblance of structure. It's just one damned indirect reference after another. Has C++ really helped ANY project achieve its goals easier than equivalent careful manual data abstraction in C? It's disturbing to look at this code, not the least because apparently, different committers are using different indentation styles. Yuck!
3. Incredible code bloat. Look, the whole integrated mail/news issue has been hashed out, but honestly, why not split the package into a shared library and two or three loosely integrated applications? I think it couldn't hurt but to improve stability, at least.
I suppose I gravitate towards Happy Dance, mostly on the promise of Mozilla and the honestly enormous strides this gargantuan code base has been making over the last few revs (a huge improvement on my Solaris box). I can't understand how these code meisters are keeping this beast in its pen without getting run down, but they certainly have my respect.
Yes, "optimized for" doesn't necessarily imply "only runs on"; "optimized for" might just mean "instructions scheduled for", "instructions that run fast on used and instructions that don't run fast on not used", etc.; it'd be "only runs on" if it used instructions available only on the processor family in question, e.g. the conditional moves on P6 processors.
And of course it dosn't and probably never will support NT authentication. NT authentication is lame but there are a bunch of sick Microsoft drone web-nazis who can and have used this with Microsoft Proxy to keep large numbers of people from using non-microsoft web browsers. Somebody needs to figure out how to duplicate NT authentication or soon not only will everybody be using IE but they won't be able to use anything else even if they want to! (already happened where I work)
I tried using M12 and most of the functions still did not work. The e-mail application "sort" of worked in that I could send out email.. IMAP didn't work at all for me. I could render stuff but it was very unstable. Hope they fix this shit or hopefully Microsoft will port IE5 to Linux.. that'd be cool. IE5 is suprisingly pretty nice.
Should Slashdot's motto be changed from "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." to "YHBT. YHL. HAND."?
"My font sizes in Mozilla are small enough to be almost unreadable."
set the environment variable
GECKO_FONT_SIZE_FACTOR = 1.2
It works in linux - I have been using it for an hour and only 1 page have been seriously wring-rendered. Posted with M13
Indeed! Can you customise IE5? Can you change routines, add options, ... with IE5? Nope!
Does IE5 crash my box every 10 minutes? Nope!
They should concentrate on the stability problems before adding on all these other unnecessary bells and whistles.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
... why is it not possible to use GTK widgets to render inside forms?
:-)
Basically, they need to be able to do things like apply CSS styles, layer widgets, composite them, and do other things that many toolkits/platforms don't support.
This also results in having the same UI regardless of what platform you're running Mozilla on. This goes back to the Netscape goal of turning Navigator into a development platform. There are pros and cons to this approach, but I guess they figured they were already most of the way there, so they might as well finish the job.
It also reduces platform-specific code, which any developer will tell you makes your life easier.
Given that both Mozilla and GTK are Open Source Software, I'm sure someone will eventually do the work to merge the two, even if it requires rewritting GTK.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
I had the same problem with Crashicator but I tried NSS 1.6 - Netscape Startup Script - Wrapper for Netscape.
It's on freshmeat and Communicator 4.7 seems to run very good/stable with it.
Haven't had one crash since I use it!
Perhaps you should try it, until Mozilla is ready.
Hadn't much luck with Mozilla until now...
I have to try M13...
Michael
Get off your duff, download the source, and start hacking. If it is so simple, fix it.
Yep, do some free work for the largest media company in the world.... after all, they need your help and can't afford to hire programmers.
I don't understand.. Have I downloaded a different lizard?
Mine takes about 15 seconds to start up, slowly loads from local, but does okay over the net. The preferences are STILL DOG slow (fonts is particularly bad) and different options crash the program, one being setting it to use document supplied fonts but ignore dynamic fonts.
And the fonts... Is it just me, or are the microscopic? Don't tell me to just change 'em in the prefs, it doesn't work. The only change that sticks is the dpi, if I change from 8 to whatever the font size stays the same and the preferences still say 8.
And no cursor key page movement? Blah.. I don't grab the mouse to scroll a simple webpage!
Am I doing something wrong? Netscrape 4.7 locks up on me all the time and I'd *love* to have a better browser, but Mozilla M13 is *not* ready!
Installed m13 on NT4 sp5 with no probs. turned that cutesy bar off and it's great. wished ALT+lftarw would go back, but that's a small price to pay for the space I'm saving. That and I've already had a ton of folks say, "hey! what browser is that?" Of course it's the dumb looks when I say "Mozilla!" that truly takes the cake!
IE is loaded at boot, it just sits in memmory and appears to load fast. It is the real memmory hog sitting there all the time.
Learn a little something before you open your trap next time.
I would have to agree with most of what you have said. This is really annoying that its supposedly a step forward. If the browser works less that it did in M12 how can it be an improvement? I keep getting Invalid Page Faults with necko.dll. Deleted every file I could relating to mozilla, one way or another, and it still crashes off the start. Then again its a school computer...
Can anything be done with this or am I condemed to use a more stable browser like IE forever?
there is some way to get a gnome and/or front end to compile, and it will use your gtk theme, but when I followed the instructions at http://www.mozilla.org/ports/gtk/ , I couldn't get it to compile.
I really hate the new look of mozilla, and it sucks to have to make Yet Another Application Specific Theme To Match My GTK Theme. *shrug*
This sig is false.
Well, it is getting better, so I'll keep downloading new versions as they come out, but, I do feel that its not 'useable' yet. People complain about the usability of Netscape 4.x (since it crashes often)... mozilla isnt even close to that level yet. If it crashes more than once every few hours, or if internal features will crash it I cant really use it as my normal browser. I know that its only an alpha, but its been in/pre alpha for a long time already - and people are talking about it as if it's a beta or something. Well, I still think that it IS alpha and people should be treating it as an alpha. I think that if some of the bigger bugs were worked out, that it'd be fairly useable even if it wasnt feature complete. And I repeat that it is getting better and I like what's been done so far... but lets not kid ourselves by saying that it's more usable and done than it really is - we've gota be patient :)
javascript?? That's netscapes bandwagon, not IE's, and as said further up in the thread, msie only web pages were for those who actually *use* CSS and HTML4. Know your facts before you accuse
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
I think most of the pro-IE camp's point is that most anti-ms people absolutely *ignored* the the standards, and just touted off about how great ns was even though it supported about 20% of the 4.0 standard while IE supported 80%. Now that the ant-ms bandwagon folks have mozilla, suddenly they're all talking about standards that they didn't even think were all that necessary unless you can use them in linux... I'm sure if there were proprietary tags just for linux the zealots wouldn't have a problem with that, eh?
"We obviously need a new moderation category: (-1, Woo-fucking-hoo)" --Mr. AC
Please lookup alpha in the dictionary.
Hmmm... the #top tag isn't supported in this release. What the heck is up with that?
I have just downloaded mozilla and checked the release notes about linux fonts... Now I can really use it!!! I am happy now!!!!
Well, all seems to be lovely on RedHat6.0 compared to previous milestones. But, I was somewhat amazed to find that it worked excellently on Windows2000 Professional edition. Granted, I've only been using it about 2 hours now, but have tried it out on the most complicated sites I can think of, including one of my own in development which really tests it and it came through with flying colours. It seems micros~1 have done somewhat better with the stability of Windows 2000, allowing Moz a somewhat better platmorm to use. In short, I'm impressed.
1) Netscape is badly written junk (oh, sorry, I have a knack for being redundant).
Perhaps, what code have you written recently?
2) More seriously, Netscape on Linux needs 64 megs of memory. If Linux can't swap Netscape in and out fast enough, Netscape gets impatient and dies.
I think you're exaggerating. On my machine the ever accurate 'top' tells me my four netscape windows are 2 processes which are using 18meg and 2 meg of memory. If your netscape requires 64 meg, either upgrade or make sure your memory is not defective.
3) Netscape seems to have a HUGE memory leak that causes it to eat up memory, especially on pages with lots of images (ahem!).
I actually agreee with this. But netscape has never on my machine swelled to more than 30 meg (all processes)
4) Netscape can bring the entire system down if a) your CPU overheats or b) your video card overheats.
You lost me here. Any time a CPU overheats the system may be damaged. Netscape (read most/all software) cannot cause your hardware to overheat.
5) Netscape can also bring the entire system down if by some random chance it happens eat memory just as another process (syslog, etc.) tries to grab it, but for some reason Netscape wins the race. In this case, I've seen INIT panic and Ctrl-Alt-Del get disabled.
WHAT? This is not possbile. Linux uses protected memory. The OS won't let a program write over memory that is in use. This is a segfault. Not to mention that syslog is not a mandatory process, try 'killall -9 syslogd'. It will die and your box will march on
With a good OS, a bad application cannot and will not bring down your whole system.
I'll agree that one time X froze and I couldn't do anything but restart because xfstt died. (I wasn't even able to kill x and drop to a shell), but there is NO way netscape can stop Linux/*BSD. I simply do not believe you.
A good OS should not allow any application to bring it down. This does NOT mean that it will not let an application do this. Even good programmers have bugs from time to time. And even good programmers are no match for buggy engineering (i.e. F00F).
Thats right! Ever tried BSD? Linux?
Thing that jumped out at me most about Windows M13 -- and this is a common gripe I have with Windows apps -- is that the backgrounds of the sidebar and the preferences windows are set to white, ignoring the Windows settings, while the text in those locations obeys the Windows settings.
Since I use a white-on-black screen (I find it easier on the eyes) this is a big hassle.
I entered a minor bug report in BugZilla about it; we'll see what happens.
Has anybody tried Mozilla on BeOS yet? I started running Be over the weekend, and just noticed today that Mozilla is available for that platform.
~
I doubt there's ever going to be an ActiveX wrapper of any kind for Mozilla, unless someone who wants it codes it themselves. As far as I know, ActiveX is a proprietary MicroSoft thing. And its not very well designed, either. You'd be better off using Java, since even though that's (right now) a proprietary Sun thing, its hopefully not going to be for long and is better designed.
-RickHunter
--"We are gray. We stand between the candle and the star."
--Gray council, Babylon 5.
How slashdot.org avoids this is indeed a tribute to their setup.
/. effect to bring them down. Fact is I never had cnn.com _not_ send me a page. Granted there are times it serves em up slower then hell but it still gets it out. Where as its a regular occurance here to have the server not send a page.
Bah.. Setting up a web site to handle the crush is not rocket science. Look at some of the higher traffic sites.. cnn, yahoo and others it takes more then the
Layers? I thought layers were a NN4 extension.
---
Oper on the Nightstar
(like personal information being tranmitted to web sites)
for those using IE that haven't changed the default settings after they installed or upgraded, you should check under
Internet Options > Advanced
for the settings
Enable Page Hit Counting and Enable Profile Assistant (both are checked by default)
Make sure and right-click to read the "What's This" description and hate M$ all over again. You don't have to hide this stuff in code, just put it under "Advanced" "Security" settings and newbies will steer clear.
+&x
If your box is crashing every ten minutes, then there is something wrong with your box, not your browser.
I've been running Linux almost non-stop for a month now (as opposed to switching back and forth between OSes as I did before). From that, I think I've gathered a number of possibilities for why Netscape crashes:
1) Netscape is badly written junk (oh, sorry, I have a knack for being redundant).
2) More seriously, Netscape on Linux needs 64 megs of memory. If Linux can't swap Netscape in and out fast enough, Netscape gets impatient and dies.
3) Netscape seems to have a HUGE memory leak that causes it to eat up memory, especially on pages with lots of images (ahem!).
4) Netscape can bring the entire system down if a) your CPU overheats or b) your video card overheats.
5) Netscape can also bring the entire system down if by some random chance it happens to eat memory just as another process (syslog, etc.) tries to grab it, but for some reason Netscape wins the race. In this case, I've seen INIT panic and Ctrl-Alt-Del get disabled.
With a good OS, a bad application cannot and will not bring down your whole system.
A good OS should not allow any application to bring it down. This does NOT mean that it will not let an application do this. Even good programmers have bugs from time to time. And even good programmers are no match for buggy engineering (i.e. F00F).
It doesn't support CSS* completely (watch that * !). It supports CSS1 completely, with some bits of CSS2. Note that this is exactly what they said they'd do. They only guaranteed full CSS1 compliance, with the rest of CSS2 to be worked in over time.
---
Oper on the Nightstar
If you think IE5 is unstable or Netscape is better than IE5 in Windows (note: IE4 pretty much sucks - we're talking IE5 only), then you automatically lose all credibility.
Also, if your Windows box is unstable, then it's your fault. I work on a lot of Windows systems (though I prefer Linux) and all of them, including mine, are extremely stable. The last time I had a memory leak was back in 1997 or 1998 with a crappy game called Ultima Online. My uptime can go for 1-2 weeks (of course, nothing like what Linux can manage, but still) before it starts to bitch.
The last time I had a BSOD was in Windows 95. If you get BSODs, you're an idiot. Simple as that. Try patching. You're a Windows newbie. Face it - while Windows isn't open source, it's actually complicated, and takes learning to make it good.
Most distributions of Linux that I have installed have also installed Netscape by deafult on my system.
:(
What is the difference between that and MS installing IE when you setup Windows?
I love my Linux boxen, and we use them for all of our servers, but I have to resort to using my NT box with IE if I want to do some browsing without having to worry about it crashing every 20 minutes or so.
I just downloaded the Win32 version of Mozilla and it just looks horrible. True, it looks a heck of a lot better than previous versions, but... I have restarted it 12 times now, not once has it worked for more than 5 minutes. Move the sidebar around on a sufficiently advanced page and I get garbage all over the place.
It's very frustrating. I try to be a "Good Linux Advocate" but after seeing what is available for browsing most people who don't care about/understand the power of Linux get turned off very quickly.
BTW, I started writing this in Mozilla but after it crashing when I tried to submit this I had to resort to IE.
load "linux",8,1
What a crock. Just tried M13 and I feel it is Slow and Unstable as hell.
I notied that M13 was optomized for i686 in the tarball. I run an AMD K6/300, which is an i586. If Mozilla is switching Linux compatibility to only i686, then I will be very upset with them. Can anyone confirm their switch or is there a way around it (besides getting a new processor)?
You make it sound like an alpha release should be final release!
Alpha still means extremely buggy. And trust me, that description fits Mozilla pretty well.
When Mozilla is stable and usable, you can bet your ass right now that I'll use it over IE5. And I'll get all my Windows friends to do it, too. Almost made me cry when I converted to IE5 and convinced them to do the same, but we all realized that IE5 is a lot better.
Please, Netscape. Bring back the days of when your browser didn't suck.
Transmeta Linux: Vaporware Mozilla: Still alpha quality Transmeta: Just announced (looking under chair, behind sofa) I don't see a kick ass web device anywhere. Do you?
Sucks for you.
Most things look bad in 8-bit color.
I'm sorry. Most programs won't work in shitty ass crap like that. Deal with it.
Using it to post this, even.
Above offered FYI. Thank you.
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
This is not meant to sound like a troll. I love Linux and think Moz is a great effort. It's the reality of the thing that hurts me.
It is considerably slower. I don't understand why people are posting comments like "It Rocks" or "This is so stable"
It's not. An app like this, even at Alpha stage, would NEVER make any headway in the MS Windows world. People there expect applications to be relatively stable and to follow standard GUI guidelines.
It seems that in the Linux world people have lowered their expectations to the point where they can be happy with sub-par apps. It's a trick of the mind to make you feel better.
That's why I stick with the console! I don't need no stinkin' graphics to get the kind of work I do done. The average user on the other hand...
--Spudnic
load "linux",8,1
M13 needs new 6.x versions of the Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime libraries, MSVCRT.DLL and MSVCIRT.DLL. Since these are usually locked when Windows is up and running, the installer program is necessary to update the files at reboot-time, if necessary.
In Zontar's case, he probably had the 6.x DLLs already, so everything ran out-of-the-zip. The release notes list the exact versions Mozilla expects. Newer versions should work, but Your Milage May Vary.
Keith Russell
OS != Religion
This sig intentionally left blank.
See, Open Source can work!
--NoNick
It looks like there was a problem on our server and it's fixed now. I guess I'll just have to stop beating the tech guys to work.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
Or, in other words, Slashdot's RDBMS backend doesn't use place moderation updates inside a transaction. This should be simple enough to fix unless they're silly enough to use a database that doesn't support transactions. But who would do something silly like that? :-)
If I'm right about this, the Postgresql folks are entitled to one collective "nyeah, nyeah, we told you so!" on this topic.
Babar
But I don't see the value in this at all. Using Mozilla for the sake of saying you are using Mozilla is a pretty stupid thing to do.
But when will a Win32 API based Navigator using Gecko be released by Netscape/AOL (not Mozilla, NETSCAPE/AOL) THIS IS A SERIOUS COMMENT. DO NOT MODERATE IT DOWN!
Apparently, there's another text mode browser called "links" that is not lynx, but I haven't found it anywhere yet.
Get links at http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~mi kulas/links/
W3m can be found at http://ei5nazha.yz.yamagata-u.ac .jp/~aito/w3m/eng/
IE is part of windows98 dillweed. It IS therefore loaded with win. Try typing a url into a folder address box and see what happens.
Dillweeds abound
Swell, except that I've never come across a gzipped PS file in all the time I've ever browsed. And at least there's a workaround.
ie5 isn't available for enough operating systems
Win9x, WinNT, Win2k, Solaris, and MacOS. Seems good enough to me. I guess it will never support enough OS's until it supports Linux, eh?
Time to put away the notion of "enough OS's" and start focusing on "enough market share". IE has the market share now, "enough OS's" or not.
Yes, for browsing web pages in any of the Windows operating systems, ie5 is much better than Netscape 4.x.
Which is all that really matters to the vast majority of users.
But, the way it is now, I have to close ie5 and open Netscape in order to view research papers.
Which isn't something that will win market share for Mozilla. "Now ANYONE can research tadpole migration behaviors in Southern Africa!! Switch Now!"
But when it comes to performance, the inability to handle gzipped postscript is absolutely unacceptable.
Yes, to you and a handful of others. Apparently, it doesn't really matter since IE's share is still growing.
Good product managers know how to focus on the features that matter most to consumers.
Well I'm glad they've finally hit the alpha stage. Now we'll just have to wait for the various less-informed to uninstall their browsers and switch to Mozilla just to find out it doesn't work half the time. Strange considering most of the problems seem simple enough to fix...
icqqm [ICQ:11952102]
No, you are confused. It doesn't just sit there. IE features are actively used in the Windows shell since Win98.
For example, I have some really nice customized folders for my MP3 directories, with scanned-in cover art all done in HTML.
The poster could be an idiot, but it's not a given. You're almost entirely at the mercy of your drivers in Windows, which does make sense :). If you happen to luck out and get a hardware manufacturer that makes decent drivers, then you're set. Linux has the advantage and curse of having probably over 3/4 of its drivers created by someone other than the hardware manufacturer; that means generally better drivers, but a smaller selection of drivers.
Free the lizard.
Don't want to pay Lars? Sue him!
Hijacking IE's ProgID and CLASSID is a BIG nono.
:P.
and no I wouldn't do it for practicallity, just as proof that web integration doesn't just mean IE integration
Most things wouldn't work well (like HTML help) cause Mozilla's DHTML support is cruddy.
Netscape is badly written junk (oh, sorry, I have a knack for being redundant).
I wouldn't go that far. Netscape Navigator is a case of code pressed beyond the entropy point. Any non-trivial code base which is being modified will experience a case of gradually diminishing returns. Eventually, the system becomes unmaintainable and you have to start over.
Navigator 3 was pretty good (for its day), but Navigator 4 really shows the age of the codebase. And, as the Mozilla project found out, trying to do anything major with the V4 codebase resulted in a total collapse.
This doesn't make the software "badly written junk"; it makes it software which should have been thrown away after the V3 series. Unfortunately, management so rarely recognizes such cases.
Read Fred Brooks's timeless work on software engineering, The Mythical Man-Month, for more about this and other software principles.
More seriously, Netscape on Linux needs 64 megs of memory.
Um, I'm not sure what version of Netscape you're running, but on my system, right now, Navigator 4.7 has a virtual segment size of just under 15 MB and a resident size of just under 11 MB.
If Linux can't swap Netscape in and out fast enough, Netscape gets impatient and dies.
If a process needs more memory, it will block until the kernel satisfies the request or fails it. It cannot "get impatient"; it will not be run by the kernel while memory is being managed.
Netscape seems to have a HUGE memory leak that causes it to eat up memory, especially on pages with lots of images (ahem!).
Here you have found the real problem. There is a memory leak in Navigator V4 related to pages with complex layouts and/or lots of images. This causes Navigator to gradually leak memory over time. It isn't using this memory, but it eats up swap space and slows down the system. If you don't exit and restart it, Navigator will eventually exhaust virtual memory, resulting in failed memory allocation requests and a program abort.
This is, of course, a Bad Thing. My workaround (until Mozilla V5 becomes viable) is to keep an eye on the memory gauge in the GNOME Panel, and exit and restart Navigator if it grows beyond a reasonable size.
Netscape can bring the entire system down if a) your CPU overheats or b) your video card overheats.
That's a very misleading statement. The cause of such a crash is a heat problem. Anything could cause that. Blaming Navigator because it was the forground application at the time is silly. If your system is overheating, you need to fix your system cooling, not blame the software!
Netscape can also bring the entire system down if by some random chance it happens to eat memory just as another process (syslog, etc.) tries to grab it, but for some reason Netscape wins the race. In this case, I've seen INIT panic and Ctrl-Alt-Del get disabled.
Again, here you're blaming Navigator for a system problem. It is a known problem that Linux handles out-of-memory situations poorly. I believe the 2.3 kernel addresses this, by making sure system processes have a proper reserve and doing a better job of killing processes to free memory in an emergency.
Anything that eats memory will cause this problem. while(1) malloc(10000); will do it. Are you going to blame GCC for that, next?
What I recommend doing is instituing user resource limits (using ulimit) to prevent any single process from exhausting your system's memory.
In the end, if an application crashes your system, there is something wrong with the entire system. It doesn't matter which application did it.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Well, I downloaded it tonight. The installer took an ungodly amount of time, I went out to the store and came back before it was done. My Mac isn't exactly slow, either.
Well, the widgets are improving. Text boxes work better. Still no fscking drag and drop. No scroll bars. Would it kill them to use normall OS features like that? The Scroll bars on the window look OK for mac users using normal-style themes, but I've got a nice-looking NeXT-style theme on mine and I've also got double scroll arrows on each end of the scroll bar. Mozilla's stuff looks ugly as sin in comparison (though not as ugly as windows).
I really have to wonder what the Mozilla teams' aversion is to using normal OS widgets. Sure, you have to have a bit of code divergence. Maybe Windows and Linux users are used to different applications having wildly divergent UIs? I can tell you now, Mac users aren't!
I've tried to use mail and news and I really can't get them to work very well. They obviously don't get preferences from the internet set.I'm assuming that this will be in the release version; if not, they'll really be sacrificing usability for the sacred cow of cross-platform code.
At this moment, that seems to be the basic problem -- if the code is identical between platforms, that means that the browser will behave and look identical between platforms.
Now, cross-platform apps are great. Code should be kept platform-agnostic WHEN it does not sacrifice usability. I believe that if the final version of Mozilla looks like this, it will be largely rejected by end users.
Yes, I know that the appearance is user-configurable with chrome and skins and themes and schemes, and that my own use of a NeXTStep theme on the Mac OS seems to counter my own argument of UI consistency.
But consistency needs to be within an OS, and between appplications. If I apply my NeXT theme, or a brushed metal Quicktime-style theme, or a psychedelic multi-colored theme, or what have you, I want that everywhere! I want things to work the same throughout the OS, because it's easier for me to forget they're there and just USE them.
iCab lets me do that better than any other browser I've ever used. MS IE isn't quite as good, but it's close. Netscape 4 isn't even close. Mozilla. . . *shakes his head sadly*
Anyone ever wish there were a "-1: Missed the whole point"? *sigh*
Mozilla M13 works withs proxy servers, something it wouldn't seem to do for me before this release. I immediately gave it the nastiest test I could think of -- the web interface for MS Exchange. Is runs the pages better than IE5! NICE job Team Mozilla!
Some people take their .sig way too seriously
At work I must use Windows NT on a P2-350 / 128mb RAM box. I've tried the M13 builds on it and it's quite usable and feels reasonably fast.
:)
However, at home on my K5 100mhz / 80MB Linux box the UI crawls, still. Netscape 4.7's user interface is much more responsive. Some of the old problems from M10-M11 are still there (such as a really flaky text field box, which I'm sure has been reported to BugZilla dozens of times).
Nah.. I'm not bitching. I'm generally pleased with the progress... just wish the developers would code using a low end ( 200mhz ) box, as they would have more incentive
Umm... this is not a troll, as it has been moderated, but is a VERY helpful problem-solver for people who haven't used a lot of the Mozilla builds and don't know a lot about its status. Some of the ultra-trolls have been getting moderator status and wreaking havoc with the moderation system. I think it's clear they should have their moderation ability revoked.
I'm not going to corrupt my principles so I can play for some mass-audience.
Not to mention that it's completely inconsistant with the rest of the OS.
An article on this phenomenon or a reference to previous discussion would be nice. How slashdot.org avoids this is indeed a tribute to their setup.
I guess I can get it tonight after the rush is over. The mirrors are crawling too
-DF
I completely agree: w3m is FAR better than Lynx. Earlier, when the only text-only browser I knew was Lynx, I used to think: No way, I will never surf text-only, that's crap. Then I came across w3m and decided to give it a try. These days I use it lots of time. Give it a try, see for your self. It handles tables and frames and stuff. Alejo.
M11, M12 and M13 all bombs on this major Swedish
daily papers home page: http://www.dn.se
I don't think I'll switch from Netdscape 4.7 to
Mozilla before it can handle it, unfortunately.
Anyone that knows why it bombs?
Does this mean that there will be an M14 Beta before it's finally declared stable? Or is this the stage before final release, (meaning everything beforehand was technically a beta)?
As many reasons as there were to hate Netscape "back in the day" before they got clobbered, they have deffinitely got their act together. First they not only give away their browser (true, they were forced to... but still) and then they go one step further and release the source. (That which is theirs to release, that is). Now they are producing a completely standards compliant browser, no more extensions. And it is sure to catch on, too, due to AOL (can you say "instant dominant market share"?). Good for you, Netscape.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
For site testing, most of us get spoiled using IE or netscape. Mozilla's strong adherence to the HTML 3.2 Spec is a perfect wakeup call for us developers who would like to be as close to W3C spec as possible.
Sadly, i wonder whether this mozilla will be obsoleted when and if W3C's HTML4.0 spec is released.
Either way, it's doing pretty well for me, and i love the RDF support, but then again, i'm a nerd like that.
--NSFMC
i support the development of mozilla fully and all, i just can't help thinking how mozilla/netscape is going to recover the millions of users that MS stole. I still remember when netscape was king of the hill, and i still use netscape, because like it or not, messenger is a great email client. but how is this going to affect the millions of users that use IE because "it was already installed on their computer?" the hardest browser battle yet may be trying to get former netscape users back to mozilla rather than just giving up. but for that we need a stable browser whose bandwagon we can jump on.
When I checked the wishlist-FAQ, I noticed it said: "Standards Compliance: The aim for the first release is full support for the W3C standards of HTML 4, XML 1, CSS 1 and DOM 1. There is some support for CSS 2, DOM 2, and XHTML, XSL, XLink and MathML, but whether any of these will make it into the first release of Mozilla is unknown."
So, dumb question, but is there any XHTML support? Wishful thinking that we might get XHTML 1.0 support perhaps, but this is the killer app of standards for business nowadays.
Will in Seattle
such a laugh
Before IE5, IE was known to crash once or twice too.
Gee, IE must be wonderful, huh?
I'll admit, IE5 seems fairly stable on my Win95 box here.. though I have had it crash a few times.
On my Win98 computer at home, however... I use Netscape 4.7. Haven't had a single crash in it. Whenever I end up trying to use Explorer to browse, on the other hand, chances are things are gonna go down fast (and bring the whole computer crashing to a halt).
If you're having Proxy authentication problems, vote for this bug: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24329 The last nightly build I used was unable to retain the password (hence the multiple prompts), but it does at least authenticate.
Did you steal my .sig ... or did I steal yours?: *~*:._.:*~*:._.
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.
_.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._
ASCII art?? I thought it was a REGULAR expression
Yes, Mozilla has an ActiveX wrapper, designed and maintained by Adam Lock. You can grab it here.
Does IE manage to more or less match the scrollbars and buttons in the OS it is run on? Yep.
Nope. That's an OS function, not a browser function.
MacOS X will support IPv6, supposedly. I assume most Linux distros come with IPv6 support too - do they? What other OSes are ready?
There is an ActiveX wrapper for Mozilla, which can be used in place of the IE ActiveX component.
This is surely the saddest joke I have doth seen.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
according to the Mozilla people, this is not a bug, it's a feature.
apparently allowing web designers to fuck with your controls was more important than having os consistant controls to begin with.
stupid, i know.
it's a feature, not a bug. netscape engineers will fight you to the death if you insist on your browser functioning like the rest of your os.
there are other more importating things apparently, like how well it goes with a shiny aol cd.
2. Don't forget, kids, not only to use Moz from home, but be sure to follow your kindly old Uncle Zontar's example and install it on your machine(s) at work as well... Let the PHB's see you using it... Let it be known to them that you regard it as something to be taken seriously, and that it's not just some toy. Thank you.
3. Slightly offtopic: Why does M12 support my scroll wheel under Win98 but not 95? Both are MS Intellimöuser both using the v 3.0 drivers.
Using M12 to post while I download M13... :)
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Oh well, looks promising. Anyone know if there's an ActiveX wrapper for mozilla yet (IE has had that since IE3)....which is why so many apps have integrated HTML (WinAmp, Neoplanet, Office, and other 3rd party ones I can't remember :)).
Adam Lock has a homepage for the Mozilla ActiveX Project. I haven't played with it myself, but from looking over the page, it appears that the project is well along. Also, it allows Mozilla to replace IE as an ActiveX control using the same API! They're also working on allowing Netscape and Mozilla to use ActiveX controls as a plug-in, but this appears to be an early effort yet.
Will it really be so hard for Netscape to reclaim the browser market from Microsoft if Mozilla can replace IE easily, is more powerful, and supports web standards better? I guess we'll see...
Deven
"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay
Nice to see this solid build (it rocks - check it out!) come out right as Shaver is stepping down as project leader. Any word on who his replacement will be?
Ever make a site with CSS? Enough said.
What happened to roaming access in Mozilla? Was it scrapped during the first major rewrite? Is it ever going to be included? Inquiring minds want to know...
Shayne
Today I didn't even have to use my AK; I got to say it was a good day -- Icecube
Mozilla does work pretty well with Proxy, but I advise you to skip this release if your proxy requires authentification, like mine does.
Indeed it seems this alpha build can not remember your proxy password, which means that you have to enter your id and password dozens of times (frames + images) for each url you visit. I finally gave up after visiting my third bookmark. Sigh.
Does Slashdot's red star for the mozilla org denote the communistic flavour of open source projects?
The red star being a particularly famous emblem representing communism is slashdot's symbol for mozilla. Given, there's a dinosaur inside to shed a little more light on the meaning of Mozilla's symbol, but why the red star.
The concept of sharing code and everyone contributing what they are able for the greater good of the community is what makes open source such an appealing option. This is also a fundamental principle of communism (theoretical communism as opposed to communistic styled dictatorships) Is the web fertile new ground for communism to re-emerge via open source?
"A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
M13 is definately worthy of being called a browser now. The rendering speed has substantially improved, and there doesn't appear to be suffering any of the old rendering glitchies. Scrolling is finally nice and smooth. Slashdot appears to render pretty much exactly as NS4.7 does it.
I'm quite impressed with the rendering speed of complex tables. A stats matrix I generate as part of a traffic tracking system produces a page with several thousand elements... M13 was able to rip through that in about a second, give or take .5. Verrry nice.
There's still some UI issues... text centering, odd ugliness here and there. For example, it'd be nice to have the mouse switch to a pointy-style when hovering over a scrollbar, rather than staying in the "I" shape (which only occurs periodically, so there's obviously some sort of glitch there). It IS still alpha though, I won't sweat it too much.
Keep up the excellent work Mozilla peeps. You're almost there.
--
rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)
"People will pay big bucks for the luxury of ignorance."
WTF is up with the shitty scroll bars and buttons? this looks like an ugly-ass port from hell... has anyone files a bug on this?
...it's a monstrosity. It's a great wallowing pig of an application like Netscape. No wonder it's taking so long to get up to speed, they aren't doing a core functionality and building up layers of extra gadgets and niceties around it, they're globbing everything they can think of into it at once and seeing what emerges.
Oh well, they can't all be Lynx. ^_^
Yes, but the point is, can you customize the HTML rendering engine? With Mozilla, you can. With IE, you can't.
With Linux, you *can* configure your OS to your heart's content. With Win, it has been decided that this isn't in your best interests so the Gods have made it as arcane to do as possible (to the point where sometimes it seems like they have forgotten how to do it right themselves, too).
Um, if you'd read my post, you would have seen that I stated that IE5 was fairly stable on one of my computers (and I forgot to mention, Netscape crashes that computer every time I try it.. not immediately, but at some time after netscape is started the computer will definately crash).
On the other hand, Netscape is completely stable on my other computer, and IE5 isn't. There's no "windows newbie" about it, no "lost credibility"... Netscape is stable, IE isn't, on this particular computer.
So basically, I pointed out a case where what you said was correct, and a case where it isn't. Which proves that what you said, while correct in some cases, is incorrect in other cases. If IE's crashes on the one machine are caused by my mucking up the configuration (it's not) then the mucked-up config should also crash Netscape and all the other programs I use regularly on that computer.
Wait...that's because it's "part of the operating system"... For whatever reason, Netscape chose to port their GUI stuff, rather than wrap it around Win32/MFC. Of course, this is the same BS argument that MS got for Office 4.x on the Mac: "it's too Windows-like". However, for consistency, Netscape will look and act the same on a PC, Mac or *ix, right?
True - every Linux user has probably spent weeks upon weeks of tweaking their systems to maintain stability and security, yet feel that Windows users shouldn't have to. Awfully hypocritical if you ask me. I *do* tweak my windows box as needed, and it gives me very little trouble.
Now THERE'S a good reason for ditching IE5 (NOT)
Cool.. Mozilla used to crash like hell on Slashdot and formatting really sucked (had those very same problems for a loooong time, up until MS12), but now I'm actually using it to post this very message. The guys have sure made a LOT of progress over the past months and I can only congratulate them on a brilliant effort finally coming to fruition. Keep up the good work!
__
Arickx
L'Enfer, c'est les autres.
Hi,
:)
I remember using some early mozilla version which
was using my gtk-theme. Now M12, M13 don't use it.
Bug or feature ?
The list of bugs fixed in M13 is here
As just a rough estimate, it looks like about 760 bugs were fixed. Cool huh?
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
oops, i suppose i should have included that symlink. thought i did...and now you'll probably never check this article again, but here it is, anyway. :)
/usr/lib/libjpeg.so.6 libjpeg.so.62
ln -s
that took care of my problem. there may be other things that will need symlinked, but i haven't seen them yet.
"The things we wizards have to put up with."--Jethro Bodine
So I went to the site, saw some mirrors, looked for binaries, but all I found were "i686-pc-linux" tarballs. Pentium II or K6 level. But I only have a Pentium, so I don't imagine they'd work. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I figure I'll just build the source myself.
Download the source, unpack, configure, make, swell! Except, the compiled code size is enormous. It runs out of disk space. So I look for more disk - ah, there's a 700MB partition I wasn't using. (Lucky, that!) So I rebuild over there, and it STILL runs out of disk space. 700MB? That's ridiculous!
So I guess what I'm asking is: is there anyone with a Pentium (or lower) Linux machine and a large amount of diskspace who has (or will build) an i586-compatible executable?
While I'm dreaming, do you have it in .deb format? ;-)
The bad:
The good:
I'm really sorry, but I'm curious why it has a Score 5 (I'm not bitching, I just want to know why it's so funny :P)
:-|
It's very simple. In this case, 3 moderators decided at roughly the same time that the post in questions deserved to be a 'Score:2, Informative', while a fourth decided an instant later that it should be a 'Score:2, funny'; pow: it's a 'Score:5, funny'. Since when you posted, one moderator then wasted another point giving it an overated, so now it's a 4. Hopefully it won't get slash-moderated down to -1 when 5 moderators all decide at once that it's still overated, since I think it really does deserve a 2. But that's life at Slashdot
Chris
San Francisco values: compassion, tolerance, respect, intelligence
what is the Bezilla tinderbox URL?
Someone probably will make a binary available for Sparc/x86 Solaris. I think someone working on Mozilla did with M12/M11. Otherwise delete all those files scattered around your harddrive, start downloading that source :)) What I do not know is whether any of the mozilla.org developers are working on the BeOS port of Mozilla? Oh and why isn't there a bzip2'ed tarball of the source?
At last I can start using mozilla here at w@rk
Build 12 would work for me on the intranet here, but I couldn't get out. This build not only gets out, it also picked up my proxy settings.
a thanks to the poster(s) who pointed out how to decheck and turn off the side bar.
I'm looking forward to using/abusing this browser. Even more, I'm looking forward to updates and more improvements
Many, Many thanks & kudo's to all those who have worked so har to get the code to this point
Great, let's give this a shot. I pull down the RPM for M12, install it, and run it. Displaying web pages isn't any faster than Netscape, the UI responds glacially, and certain sites still crash it.
Am I missing something? Am I doing something wrong? I'm running these tests on a PPro 200 with 288M of RAM, running RH6.1. From all the comments I've heard, M12 should have flown on my system. Has anyone else seen this? Do I have a stale library?
I plan on pulling M13 down later today (at work, over the fat pipe, rather than my 28.8 link at home) but, really, is M13 really better than M12?
www.eFax.com are spammers
yeah but i'm running IE 4 on a Mac so dilweed yourself!
I just discovered something.
/usr/lib. I discovered that old Mozilla libraries were floating around in there, and that it had apparently been linking to those! Once it overwrote those, I restarted Mozilla, and it's suddenly much quicker and much more stable. So if you're having stability problems, try this (also, don't forget to remove ~/.mozilla)
Installed M13, saw that it kind of sucked, and was about to delete it. Then, on a whim, I decided to copy the libraries from the Mozilla distro (lib* from the package directory) to
Just my little contribution to this conversation.
"Software is like sex- the best is for free"
-Linus Torvalds
It is stable enough to start adding to. The APIs are quite settled on and the code is more than capable of being stretched out.
I now use mozilla on win98 about 90% of the time.
I am going to use it 100% of the time on slashdot so I can turn nested comments back on a read the dand page while it is loading. NS4.7 hangs almost 30 seconds on the 800+KB page all in one table nightmare than these long posts have become.
--
$you = new YOU;
honk() if $you->love(perl)
Sure, it's a milestone, alpha level release. So, I downloaded it, installed it, checked out a few major sites, and deleted it. The thing is SOOOO buggy, it's unusable. Preferences is horrible, you can't change fonts, the font dialog takes Several seconds on a p3-550 to come up, you can't even click on the OK button (cancel works). The screen has a MAJOR refresh problem, where the only solution is to reload the page. Many of the sites I visited couldn't be navigated, had images missing, images screwed up, out of place, etc. Compared to how this looked 6 months ago, it's not much better IMHO, and has a VERY long way to go to have the same stability of Netscape 4.7. Looking at the rate of progress between milestones, I would have to say that there is no way we will get a good stable release before fall.
Why the H was this moderated dowm? Because I put "first" in the title?
You post as an Anonymous Coward with a subject line of "First" and you're surprised that it gets moderated down? What were you expecting? If you have something worth saying don't associate yourself with the "first posters", use a meaningful subject line. And it wouldn't hurt to log in. You could get a email address from one of the free web mail services if you don't want to log in with your own address.
"AOL! Remeber, the single reason they chose IE over NS was IE's ability to be imbedded into other applications"
Actually, AOL 'chose' IE because they wanted a spot on the windows desktop (on a default win95 install). IIRC, this is one of the things that has been brought up in the MS vs DOJ trial.
I'm at work, so I tried running it on NT, and all I get is "nNCL: registering deferred (0)". Not even as much as a window opened. Am I missing something? I'd really like to use it (of course, i won't since Javascript probably won't work and Java certainly won't, and I actually need those). Oh well, I'll keep downloading new versions, one of these days a release is bound to work onthis box.
I'm running Caldera Linux 2.2 and I need this for Mozilla M13
Archaic and totally "complex" command-line OS + megalomanical Ivy League Dropout + computer technology which was alchemistic and alien in nature to the general public at the time + conduit to provide data communications services between two or more of said computer technology = the seeds of the next cultural/industrial/commercial revolution. Time to bring to fruition = 30 years. And now you're dumping on an 8 year old OS created effectively by volunteers, a newly released chip and a browser whose source was JUST made available two years ago. :/ Read your history before you blow off new things. I've never seen so many Luddites with torches in hand on this board ready to raise the pyre on anything new. WTF is this site supposed to be about anyway? Devolution? How long will you wait for Steve Baldmer and MS to release the next logical step in computing technology? Smile, at least you've still got your pride >:^D
You mean like innerHTML?
/_____\. .......|
vvvvvvv../|__/|
...I../O,O....|
...I./
..J|/^.^.^ \..|.._//|
...|^.^.^.^.|W|./oo.|
I predict that when Mozilla will be finally released (and relatively bug-free), there will be plenty of improvements that people will do to it. I know I want to add things to Mozilla, but I will wait until it's stable.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
...and there is no IE in LInux
I guess I could download it, but every time I see tiny fonts and WHITE menus, unlike any other GTK or KDE program that I run. Can I easily make mozilla play nice with KDE?
Try MozillaZine
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
This isn't 'bait' so much as it is 'Offtopic'
View->Sidebar
Also, regarding crashes - make sure you deleted your old registry and install directory.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
How is Netscape going to pull itself out of the pit and back into direct competition with IE? Can you say "Mozilla on every single AOL users desktop" ?
It's usable, certainly much more than NS4.7 which I can't stand. Like previous versions, you can resize the window (eg. max/min) without the browser reloading the page from the server, just like IE & Opera has been doing for over 2 years :P. It's nicely done, a bit slower than IE, but I guess the reason for that is the same reason why the drop down menus, and just about everything in the UI seems abnormally sluggish.
:P.
:)).
The thing on the left (a copy of window's extensible explorer bands?) doesn't expand properly after it's colapsed, it kindda dissapears and doesn't draw itself properly.
Fonts, does Mozilla not support native windows fonts? I now portability is an issue, but I'd kind of like mozilla to honour my exotic fonts if they're installed in windows.
CSS seems to work nicely now, like IE
I'm going to start testing web pages now with mozilla as well as IE (i gave up on NS4.7 ages ago).
I know mozilla is supposed to be 'standards compliant' and all, but I still find that IE always seems to be able to render and support the more exotic parts of the standards while mozilla is till 'getting there'.
Oh well, looks promising. Anyone know if there's an ActiveX wrapper for mozilla yet (IE has had that since IE3)....which is why so many apps have integrated HTML (WinAmp, Neoplanet, Office, and other 3rd party ones I can't remember
I'm using mozilla now. It is a little slow but much better than the previous release. I like the look and feel. I definatly renders microsoft ASP pagse better and faster than it did before and better than netscape 4.7. So far I haven't found any web pages it can't render. I'm really excited now. I can't wait for the beta release.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
A good text browser is w3m, it handles frames. The lynx code isn't the best. Apparently, there's another text mode browser called "links" that is not lynx, but I haven't found it anywhere yet.
Also, in the height of wierdness, there's an Amiga port of Lynx hacked to display inline images (!) on the Aminet.
I don't know why some of you are saying it's more usable than nutscrape 4.7... maybe on a fast box it is. BUT, on my PII 233, with 96 megs ram, running RH 6.1, it is WAY slower than nutscrape 4.7. Not only that, but a large number of pages still are not rendered quite right. Scrolling is very choppy, this text box I'm typing in is extremely chopppy...
If this thing requires a PII450 to run properly, that's just not good enough. This thing should be able to run on a low end pentium or a 486, IE4 and nutscrape 4.x both do.
Sorry to sound like such a party pooper, but this thing just seems like it's still got a long, long way to go.
I sure hope I'm wrong though, I'd really really like to be using a fast, stable browser in Linux...
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
They ought to steal some ideas from iCab, the mac only web browser. The thing I like about iCab (other than being only 2.8 megs and using about 4 megs of ram) is the security. It basically has the internet junkbuster stuff built in. It will filter out images by keywords (such as "ad") or by IP. It also selectively blocks cookies. Netscape let's you have it prompt you, but iCab let's you list hosts you will always accept and always decline cookies from. If you tell it to prompt you, it will bring up a dialogue with not just accept and decline, but also always accept from this host, and always decline from this host. And it also let's you set your user agent to get into sites that try to block you (or to screw with people's log analyzers :) Let's see some of the features in mozilla!
the last mozilla i downloaded didn't have SSL capabilities, and i think i read somewhere that due to the export crap, SSL would be a third party product to add to mozilla, any clue when this would be?
:(
I run a site that is all SSL and a few other sites i need to get to are SSL so it makes it difficult to move to the new browser at this time
I glanced at the headline; it's a bit confusing. Remember that there is an Alpha platform, and in fact, Netscape for Linux Alpha was released barely two days ago, so we're all excited about that :-)
Ahemn to that my brother, but I'm afraid that you can't blame the Moz folks too much. IMHO it's more a sign of the times. We seem to focus on features and bloat rather than quality and efficiency. I guess it's the reality of big business...doesn't make it right but you can't go back.
I don't know how they can call this an alpha release when there are important bugs outstanding.
CSS2 provides a way to achieve the same effects as frames with none of the drawbacks. It's called "fixed positioning". Mozilla implements it, but their implementation needs to be, err, "fixed".
For heaven's sake, I have been waiting for a good implementation of this standard since it was called CSS-P. (Now you can't find mention of CSSP on the W3C site!)
You actually might be even more disgusted ;)
Lynx is a terribly twisted bit of code. Many security holes have been found, most of them suggesting bad design. I guarentee there are many more to be found if anyone looks. I would be petrified to surf with Lynx if anyone cared to target exploits to it.
But I still love it. Slick browser.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
Does anyone else occasionally get these strange gray lines which refuse to refresh, especially when scrolling up a page?
The mozilla team is trying to make a product for general use. Most people are often used to program suites. One product that advertisably does all, just look at the success of Microsoft Office, Windows, etc.
The nice thing about mozilla is you can download the source and compile only what you need. So if you don't like the news reader don't compile it in. Sure the back button might not work yet that's pretty bad but their trying to do a lot at once so they can get a finished product for the masses.
Say it ain't so!
Lynx is as small and efficient as ed, and that's all there is to it!
(hands over ears)
LALALALALALALALALA
I use IE on my Macs because all of the 4.x releases of NS blow.
/. everytime I reload it.
1. Don't support MacOS text clippings that turn into universal URLs
2. Crash, crash, crash
3. If I turn my cache to 0...NS will not save my cookies. I browse cacheless and I don't want to log back into
4. IE lets me scope out all my cookies
5. NS reloads the page every damned time I resize the window
Some of us had to go to IE because NS was just plain worthless. There are still a couple of features that NS has...so I keep it on my system...but I don't surf with it on a daily basis. I'll give this new "milestone" a spin, but after the other M releases...I'm not expecting much.
It's quite a clever idea, makes the UI standard across all platforms. Of course, the drawback is that you lose your GTK themes.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Why are browsers on windows and linux such resource hogs? Running Amiga VoyagerNG or IBrowse under software emulation using UAE and it's socket.library driver is faster on my box than either IE or Nutscrape. KDE Konqueror is about on a par with an amiga browser running under emulation...
M13 just crashed :)
:P
It is just a milestone, so I'll forgive it
Before IE5, IE was known to crash once or twice too.
I'm actually in M13 now, and it is nicer than Netscape when it renders. I believe the saying is, failure is an orphan, but success has many fathers. I think Mozilla will be one of those with many fathers.
Posted by NJViking:
I'm typing this now on M13 under Windows NT and I have to say, it's a heck of a lot more stable than M12.
Looks like they fixed the "Same Image as" bug, and the mouse-clicking-in-URL-address-blank causes GPF/segfault problem.
Kudos to the Mozilla team!
NJV
Yeah, yeah, but does it support IPv6?
that was 3 or 4 days old.
haven't gotten m13 to test yet.
As much as we may hate AOL, you can't underestimate the power of their marketing. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing free CD's by the thousands with copies of Mozilla on them.
You've also got to place some trust in Joe User who is fully capable of downloading a new browser, he's just using IE because PC Mag said it was better. When NS5 is released and wins those comparos (which I have no doubt it will), that will cause a lot of people to try it. If they try it, I bet they'll stay.
Don't underestimate the power of Linux. As more people start using Linux, Netscape is pretty much their only browser option. Lynx is a non-starter...people want their pictures.
So in conclusion, while it'll be a challenge for Netscape to regain lost market share, it won't be impossible. I don't think we're ever going to see NS share at the level it was in the version 2 and 3 years again, but it'll definitely be higher than it is today.
*FIVE* messages to tell the guy how to turn of the FREAKIN' SIDEBAR? Isn't this a little EXCESSIVE? Sheesh!
FWIW, I *like* the sidebar.
*ducking*
My journal has hot
I'm on my work machine (win95) wich can only do 256 colors in 1024x768 and I have to say the interface is butt ugly at this color dept and the page refresh is a bit jittery too...
Since when has the GPL required this?
--
I ate something that disagreed with me. Maybe I should have cooked him first.
And your point being.... what?
Love that moderation!
The parent is offtopic, but the reply to the offtopic question is +3 informitive. Yay!
Time to turn off scores again.
When will be Themes supported again? Or where do I find a description of how to change the Theme manually? The MozillaZine Chromezone says "There will be new theme switching technology in mozilla shortly." and that was after the M10 release. So how do i use the Themes you can download from the Chromezone?
-- Remove 'ABC' for real email address.
make sure you DELETE your OLD PREFERENCES!!!! I can't stress enough how many weird problems crop up because you have out of date mozilla preferences lying aroung. If you are using linux, do an rm -rf ~/.mozilla. If you are under windows, I don't know what you should do. Mozilla is a constantly evolving project, and the preferences are constantly changing.
fucking idiot.
AOL! Remeber, the single reason they chose IE over NS was IE's ability to be imbedded into other applications just by dropping in the appropriate dll's. Previous versions of NS do not have this feature, thus they were not considered. Mozilla, however, employs the Gecko rendering engine which can be embedded just like IE, and since AOL owns Netscape, they will undoubtedly drop IE in favor of Mozilla in a heartbeat. I suppose there could be an ugly confrontation between AOL and M$ regarding M$'s inclusion of AOL in the base install of Winblows, but if there is any company out there that could take M$ head-on, it's deffinetly AOL/Time Warner, no? And a stunt like that would be poorly timed for Microsoft considering a certain pending lawsuit...
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
Two simple reasons.
Yes, for browsing web pages in any of the Windows operating systems, ie5 is much better than Netscape 4.x. You'd be crazy to say otherwise. But, the way it is now, I have to close ie5 and open Netscape in order to view research papers. I know I can use ftp and gzip and a postscript viewer to do it, but it's easier with a browser, now that the preprint servers have nice front ends.
I know people say Mozilla is open source and therefore better. I agree, abstractly, but most people ain't gonna read it anyway. It does give a kind of confidence that nothing sneaky is going on (like personal information being tranmitted to web sites) and that is important to me. But when it comes to performance, the inability to handle gzipped postscript is absolutely unacceptable. I have heard of workarounds, but haven't been able to carry them out.
That's my honest opinion.
This is by far the most stable mozilla I've used. In fact, I does what I need to do (just browsing) much better than does Netscape - it's faster, cleaner, lighter, and doesn't hang when doing DNS lookups!
See you, space cowboy...
linux = OS kernel, not bad transmeta = proprietary chip company w no shipping products mozilla = bloated piece of shit that barely works linux + transmeta + mozilla = a proprietary bloated piece of shit that is not too bad