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Mozilla Will Be Netscape 6.0
menthos writes "In this story on Cnet, the talk is about the latest speech from an AOL executive. Some of the most interesting things include that they are preparing to launch the Netscape-branded version of Mozilla "this spring", and it will be labeled Netscape Communicator 6.0.
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lol what a piece of shit get off your high fucking horse, stop calling yourselves 'engineers', and ship a product that actually fucking works, let alone fulfills its design goals, let alone ACTUALLY HAS ANY DESIGN GOALS WHAT THE fUCK IS AN IRC CLIENT DOING IN A WEB BROWSER THAT CANT EVEN WORK WITH HOTMAIL YET
Didn't we just hash this whole version numbering thing before?
9 240&mode=thread
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/12/28/161
on a p90 with 16 megs of ram
Don't give them ideas for more crap to be included in it.
I just wish they'd make a plain web browser, and leave all the ICQ/AIM/Shop Button/Editor/Email Client shit out.
please shove a barbed wired pole up your ass.
thank you.
please shove a barbed wire pole up your ass.
thank you.
you have revealed yourself for the idiot that you are.
thank you.
maybe the next IE version number will be 7? that would be cool. . .then in a few years we'll get Netscape 10 ("shoot, TWO places before the decimal point. now that's progress!"). MS will counter with an IE version number that is a curious symbol, like what Prince did, and they'll call it simply "The Browser." Netscape will reply by re-releasing Mosaic 1.1, but with skinning and AIM built-in. They'll call it "Prosaic," and it'll be a huge hit.
that jumped from 2.0 to 6.0. No real reason either.
And so I must conclude that this is exactly what you have.
You're welcome.
the fact that sometimes (cannot really say why this happens) I click on the menu bar (e.g. File) and the menu won't come up! All I can do is terminate that instance and start a new one. That's really annoying...
I get that one also, but the solution isn't as drastic as shutting it down. Just click on another open browser instance in the taskbar then click back, and it seems OK.
i dont give a flying fuck about the other web browsers or your stupid little child-porn business having 'security problems with IE' use fucking lynx-ssl then you cock eating moron, i said it uses too much ram and it has a lot of useless shit and they dont have any release goal they are just tacking a whole bunch of useless crap into it.. and you are a fucking twit because you totally ignore my points and blabber about your mom and how she beat you when you were 5 etc. bye.
note, before you flamebait moderate this one, realize there are legitimate gripes here:
as a web Applications developer (not a just HTML code monkey) I've had a great deal of frustration with netscape. It singly has caused me to turn a 1-2 hour project into consuming the better part of a day just trying to get a DOCUMENTED feature in netscape to work without having it crash on me. If they say that emulation is the best form of flattery, then emulate this:
<div id=test>something</div> <script language=Javascript> test.innerHTML='Ha, wish you could do this, netscape!' </script>
That's one example. if NS was able to dynamically do CSS style changes, that would be great.. but all it can do is positioning. Even their layer feature doesn't work! Try to dynamically write html that has a usable form to a layer over and over, and actually use the form elements. It doesn't take long for it to GPF.
anyway, enough ranting. I'm coming to realize that to make something sophisticated work cross-browser will require a java applet, and that's just fine.
you are an idiot. what you said had absolutely no relevanec what soever to the points i raised. i suppose this is how american business is done now. blabber alot and the people who like your blabbering will agree with you. argument and reason have no place. eat shit and die.
Netscape 4x is old technology that isn't capable of Efficently rendering anything but the simplest of HTML pages (and I mean sophisticated HTML structure, not just how pretty or cool it looks)
I wonder, is there a logical reason to call it communicator 6.0 instead of 5.0? Or is the reason just to hype it, to make it sound better than IE which is still in version 5.0?
BTW, in case you didn't know: the hjkl thing is possible with netscape. Have a look at /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/Netscape
I think it's pathetic when people skip version numbers to cover up for their own incompetence. Take Microsoft for example, I think most of their products are great but naming NT5 Win2k was to cover up for the huge delays.
Let me make a bold prediction, Microsoft will be renaming IE 5.5 IE 6 very soon.
Um, I have a problem listening to people say IE sucks when all they're complaining about is the "throbber icon". GET REAL! who cares! How about NS crashing, not supporting features, having features that DONT work (reliably)!
That's not flamebait, that's the unfortunate truth :( -Lars
Other Microsoft examples would be Word for Windows 2.0, jumping to Word for Windows 6.0 (I thought it was to match the DOS version numbers, someone else in this thread mentioned competition with Corel), and Visual C++ 2.0 jumping to 4.0, I think in order to match versions with Visual Basic.
And of course there's Windows jumping from 3.11 to '95 to '98 to 2000. <g;>
Wake up people, AOL ARE ANOTHER MICROSOFT
I agree completely. As much as I hate Windows, I've got to hand it to Microsoft for IE5. Netscape has been dead for years now because Netscape is too lame to incorporate any new features or to clean up their disgusting mess of code. I'm sorry, but when I have Netscape crash +20 times in the course of ONE day, under Linux and Windows (and no, it's not my hardware, it's been like this for several systems) I think that says something bad. In all the time I've been using IE4 and now 5, I am able to count the number of times its creashed on one hand. I cannot also forget that Netscape completely BUTCHERS HTML! How can ANYONE claim that Netscape supports the standards when it doesn't render any of the newer ones correctly (CSS anyone? Layers? TABLES?!). I've created a number of pages that validate properly thanks to the W3C, but only IE displays them properly. Oh well, that's enough of my ranting tirade too. I just hope this trashing alpha mozilla browser I'm using right now fesses up to the real world in upcoming months.
Slow? Nope. Faster Buggy? Not anymore. Stable. Get with the new times and stop repeating the same old troll crap.
Bugzilla is the program that tracks bugs in projects. Why would you do a presentation through it. I use the bugzilla at redhat and it never craps out one me!!!
Didn't you know? All trolls do their presentations through Bugzilla!
Hate to break it to you but "debugging code" doesn't mean "symbols in the binary" and certainly has nothing to do with the -g flag to gcc.
Let them get their basic stuff working and released, and then harass them for IPv6, built-in Cookie Crushers, etc.
Most OSs don't even have complete/reliable/useful IPv6 support. Why bother?
I'd consider the fact that it doesn't work with hotmail a major plus.
the CVS versions of xmms do this as well, you could try looking at the source for xmms if you want to know.
Ooops. My bad.
I can live with slow. I'll take slow most days. But the crashes. That is a different issue. Slow and stable is better then fast/slow and unstable. Right now netscape under linux is too unstable-(((
Well, for useful debugging you need to disable most code optimizations since the optimizer may remove unneeded variables, move code around and so on. So development versions are most times considerably slower then release variants.
yep, and segfault is even worse, not to mention themes.org.
which is amazing when you consider IE DOESN'T EXIST FOR LINUX!!! How do people put up with bloated slow-layout netscape under linux with all these fancy pages? You'd think people would go mad after the 8th page to take 30+ seconds to render...
What most people complain about in Mozilla's performance is boot time (which is slowed down by the additional symbols.) Because of increased binary size, it could also increase swapping if you have insufficient memory. I should have been more clear- my mistake. I'll note that I use mozilla now for about 75% of my browsing, and I notice basically no difference in their rendering/downloading speed. All of the "pain" is in bootup, which is pretty extended. ~luge
Yup.
The moderation system is obviously broken. IIRC: don't "moderators" get a set amount of "ammunition", and when that's used up they can't "moderate" any more? If I have it right, what I suspect is happening is that the so-called "moderators" are more interested in protecting/promoting their own religious beliefs than they are in maintaining (?) /. as a place of interesting discussion.
How else can one explain the "moderation" that's taking place, or more accurately: not taking place, in the U.S. Navy/M$ discussions? There was a post there "moderated" down because the poster noted that [s]he found it ironic that the news item slamming M$ was riddled with M$-centric, brain-dead, non-standard HTML. At the same time: there are reams of down-right offensive posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject-at-hand still sitting at "0". (Btw: I'm not objecting to the offensiveness of those posts. Just noting the apparent illogic of the situation.)
So it would seem that at /. these days you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Set your threshold up far enough to get rid of most of the garbage and you're sure to miss some valid-- or at least interesting--comments. Set it lower so you don't miss the badly "moderated" comments and you're deluged with utter crap.
I think CmdrTaco and the crew need to re-think this so-called "moderation" scheme. It's broke.
(And while they're at it: perhaps they would be so kind as to set the default display mode back to "Threaded", the way it used to be? Having to hit the first page of follow-up comments twice just to get threaded mode can hardly be good for the sites performance.)
Try putting some CONTENT on your web site. If you don't have content, I guess you have to fall back on being "Artsy" with all the J-crap and stuff.
Yawn.
Word 2.0 for Windows was called WinWord - not Word, Word5.5 was the last version for DOS so the skip to 6.0 seems almost logical.
I'm posting this message from a Win95 box running Netscape Navigator 4. I haven't booted Windows in months. On the other partition of this machine I have Red Hat 6.1, Gnome, and Netscape 4. I never thought I'd see the day when Windows was quick and nimble and Linux was slow and bloated. But it's true. Red Hat 6.1 with Gnome and Netscape swaps like a bitch. The drive is always grinding away. The system response is sluggish. This is on a 32 Meg P100 computer. Not exactly the most powerful system, but Win95 works like a champ for web browsing. Linux on this machine feels like a slug.
naw man, the best is when Word went from 2.0 to 6.0 simply to match Wordperfect's jump from 5.x to 6.0. The Excel versioning thing just allowed all the Office products versions to match.
It's working so well that I've decided to try recompiling the source to see what kind of speed I can get.
If Mozilla is released super stable and be stable on all the platforms its beta's run on now, then this will be huge for the open source community! The headlines will show that open source beat out closed source Microsoft! This has alot of potential to do good things for us all.
If Mozilla overtakes IE, GOOD! We'll have an open source, standards-compliant browser of the net, by the net, and for the net leading the way. Remember, Mozilla != Netscape/AOL/Time-Warner.
You don't need to decompile. Search MSDN for how to extend IE 5. You'll see that there is plenty that you can change with IE, and that it is very modularized.
Actually, I'm wagering that the final name will be "AOL Internet Access 6.0".
You're not correct. Netscape may be slightly bugger than IE, but it is MUCH faster than IE5... yeah.. the only thing that is slow is the startup... but if you put IE5 and Nav 4.7 on a 486 Dx - 75 with 20 megs of RAM.... you would find that NETSCAPE IS MUCH faster.... try it! I thought IE would be faster myself, untill I put Nav 4.7 on my 486DX...(see above)
<sig> I wonder if this will look correct... </sig>
you make no sense - how can anyone make you browse with mozilla? Are they going to make new version of MS? Besides, mozilla is standards compliant so again your rant makes no sense. Or are you trying to say than Open Source software is bad since people can modify it?
The debug code slows the thing down too. I think they need to start putting out stripped builds soon, with all the debugging symbols/code removed. I'd like to download and compile it myself (and add the middle-button thing), but I only have a P166, so it would take *way* too long. It would be nice to see precompiled .o files available along with the source, so I can change one file, compile it, and link with the pre-compiled code. This might actually allow me to do something, without 5-10 hours of compiling.
Those dropdown boxes all need to have a window handle (hWnd), since IE uses real controls to draw them, and loads every control on the entire page before displaying it. This wastes *a lot* of Windows resources. A better way would be to load the 3 or 4 controls that will actually be visible, and then load and unload the rest of the boxes as you scroll through the page. But it isn't open source, so you can't just go add that feature.
Even netscape admits that table rendering on Navigator CRAWLS compared to IE.
Using that logic, ext3fs is a piece of shit because Linux 2.3.1 had some bugs in it.
Other operating systems have IPv6 support too. Even Windows has it - MS has a special Winsock available somewhere, and Trumpet Winsock supports IPv6. I think Solaris and *BSD also have IPv6 support. Probably not as robust as IPv4 support, but even a user or admin can test it out.
Unless, of course, it's the December 2 release.
Mozilla is standards compliant, how many people are going to use mozilla? Most people will use Netscape. Who knows what they will do. Just because Mozilla is open source and in control of the community doesn't mean that Netscape has to be the same. What's to keep netscape from adding in custom tags and functionality like IE has now? Nothing! What's to keep Time Warner from requiring their custom version of Netscape to use RoadRunner? Nothing! What's to keep AOL from doing the same? Nothing! Mozilla and netscape are different products. Mozilla may always be around as a good standards compliant browser, but the vast majority of computer users are going to get the netscape branded version, or use the one that comes with their computer (really, my dad wouldn't have a clue how to switch from IE to netscape). I think Mozilla will remain a niche browser like many others out there now, and since netscape is not the same browser as mozilla, you can't really expect this huge media conglomeration to uphold the ideals of open standards and compatability...
At just _some_ places, the installation of software on all office machines is standardized, and things like browsers are rolled-out on a massive scale.
Even if you have full control over _your_ machine, if you're doing (say) Intranet development, you're required to target the standard browser platform (obviously).
I would use Mozilla a lot more if I could read the menus, etc. Every time I try to change fonts, it crashes.
I'm using a simple RH6 install, but my screen resolution is at 1280x1024. I'm hoping this gets fixed soon, because its been a problem for several months.
All in all, I think they've done an incredible job, and I certainly will download and use Mozilla on Linux and Windows as soon as its released. I'd probably buy it if they were selling it. Anything to stop having to do a ps -ax | grep netscape ; rm .netscape/lock every five minutes. :)
Tiny correction: :o)
The first version of NT released was NT 3.1 Advanced Server. But your point is well taken. Shoulda been NT 1.0, well, 0.1. Always get those decimals screwed up
"why I'm not good enough to access their site because I don't have netscape or ie"
In many cases, the answer is that statistically your business simply ISN'T important.
Nissan is a good example, that site reaches much more than 90% of their audience. If those "flashy" features increase sales by a fraction of one percent, then it is MUCH more profitable to alienate the rabid Linux/Unix crowd than it would be to avoid the sales increase to please you.
&sign($AC[0]);
How the hell do you manage that!!? I am running VB 6.0 service pack 3 and windows NT service pack 5, I have a 333 PII with 128mb ram. The damn thing (VB that is) crashes all the time. And if I don't reboot the machine every day it will get insanely slow and start screwing up pointers and references in VB. Not to mention if I leave IE running all day without starting a new instance of it my keyboard with stop working and I have to reboot the computer, it is really disturbing.
lame bullshit excuse
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Actually I predict that as the embedded market becomes more important, the Netscape-branded desktop-PC Mozilla won't become nearly as important as the versions of Mozilla that appear in specialized internet-enabled devices. Just my $0.02
colour honour Long live the queen!!
This is no 'browser war', this is competition! And I do want it! The more alternatives, the better. I happen like Netscape more, and the better the browser gets, the happier I'll be, as Unix user who doesn't have much competition there yet. Opera will get pretty good. This isn't a lose to anyone except if you want to see just one single browser. The standards are quite rotten I must say, true. But you know what? With Mozilla being a pretty good and stable open source product by now, I'll be so much more happier than I ever could possibly be if I had IE as well.
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numbers mean nothing, only preformance matters.
Can someone please write how one would go about stripping the symbols from EVERY lib/binary file in the directory? I did strip mozilla-bin but It'll be painful if I have to do this for every file...
Actually, I don't think so. ;)
I do not see why they would want to name the Mozilla project as the next Netscape Communicator. Netscape, and more specifically AOL, has offended users deeply with their releases over the last year due to instabilities and buggyness. The words "Netscape", "Navigator", and "Communicator" are almost swear words now.
The spit will always, forever, be aimed at AOL and the fools who sold out to them.
Perhaps the logic behind this rename might be wanting to be take away the credit that the open source work gave to the Mozilla project. AOL wants to take that for themselves and the Netscape name. Quite honestly, I do not care about that and do not mind. If Mozilla comes out and becomes my next browser than I will be happy enough, and I will know the truth. But if Mozilla does not cut it, I will be looking though MSIE on the web and old versions of Netscape on the GNU/LINUX system.
The fact that AIM is integrated rather pisses me off in its own. However I am sure that someone will release a version with this cut out in no time at all.
Like many people, I will probably end up compiling my own personal version of Mozilla. Assisting companies and individuals with modifying the program to their own needs could be an incredible rocket for Mozilla. Think of all of the corporate entities that would take Mozilla and modify it for their corporate use. It will not just be ISPs doing it. What about Intranet's that would only work with that specially compiled browser? That is neat.
Yeah, it's not perfect on windows (what program doesn't bomb out on windows), but M13 works great on Linux.
Thank fucking god that Netscape has a chance to have a diffrent interface than Mozilla.... I have used build 13 and I was really dissapointed in it. It felt like it had been slopped togather by a bunck of X users. The UI behavior was soo poor an unpolished it bordered on unusable.....
A new "Skin" is not going to fix the BEHAVIOR of the current anti-user interface... and the mozilla project intends to put off implimenting BASIC UI functionality like DRAG AND DROP untill BUILD 19! In my opinion Mozillais actually behind where they were a year ago when they finished the rendering engine (geko) but before they implimented the skin support. this is actually my opinion and not a flame.
Netscape works just as well on Linux as IE on NT. Who the hell could consider NT as a desktop machine when applications constantly bomb out it?
I have the same problem. All I do is minimize the application and then maximize it again. Voila! Works fine after that =)
I've had the misfortune to use Moz M13 and it was pants. I'll stick with IE5 on windows. And remember kids, unix/linux is for servers, windows is for desktops.
Apart from crack what else are you smoking?
Java on the client side can be good in certain cases:
1. you want to extend the functionality of the Javascript runtime.. One example of this is to create a hidden, lightweight applet that exposes an XML parser.
2. let's say you have a list view that you need to have resorted when you click on a column header. Now, why would you bother reloading data from the server when the server could be doing much more important things? (BTW, this is easily implemented with just DHTML in IE4/5, but Netscape is a different story: the layers feature isn't nearly stable enough)
no, you're being a dipshit.
http://www.mozillazine.org/ The name has *not* been decided upon yet. Get your news straight. It might very well be Netscape 6 (not 6.0), and it also may be "Netscape 2001". BTW, why didn't you report *that* news (which was culled directly from a bug report)?
You'd just cd to the necessary dirs and `strip *.*`...
fuck off you BSD bigot. BSD sucks and so do you.
Well, ok, so ns has seriously problems with rendering the layout correctly. BUT, have you entered a site with a little more than one tiny animation with IE5 or lower? (ok anim sucks, but i still want to look at the content) That alone almost justifies using NS.
NS can scroll the page with no lag on my p233 (ok, so i havent tried it on anything less), but IE5 laggs SERIOUSLY (im talkin roughly 1 second to update), when scrolling on my PII 466 with a Matrox G400 card (and thats fast compared to that 233 machine)
Generally scrolling pages is waaaaaay faster in NS. But, since everything else is rather sucky, i've temporarily converted to IE. But every time i scroll a page, i miss NS.
- Asbjørn
You go, girl!
'strip mozilla'
Or are you running Windows?
Help out, document and report these bugs rather than just complain on /. .Remember to not play the victim role that Microsoft encourages by ignoring bugs -W
I see what's happening, and I don't like it. Pretty soon, we will have to purchase browsers to view certain content. This really sux hard! As some of us try to improve web sites so that it does not matter what type of browser you use, you will see killer content, others strive to make the web their personal playground. don't get me wrong, personal playgrounds are all great, but when key web sites that provide "community" services such as news and information begin charging for content, then we will be living in a pay per view society. This is the same thing we are fighting against with the DeCSS case. Please unite and stomp specialized browsers out, or severly limit the usage of them. I find it great that Netscape will finally have a competing version of a web browser, though, even if it does come at such a great cost. Will the Linux version be better than the Windoze version, I wonder? CC
I'm sorry, but when I have Netscape crash +20 times in the course of ONE day, under Linux and Windows (and no, it's not my hardware, it's been like this for several systems) I think that says something bad.
It sure does. Even on Windows 98/NT/00, I use Netscape at least 10 hours per day every day. I can count the number of times Netscape has crashed since last September (last Win98 install) on one hand (faultlog.txt shows 4). As most would agree, Linux is more stable. If you are crashing 20+ times a day, either your systems are srewed or you visit sites written by morons.
But, let me guess. You are one of those silly people that runs Netscape 4.6 (or whatever version) because 4.7 is soooo bad . . . right?
I have to admit, I find it funny how badly these people can fuck up a timeline. You're absolutely correct.
Amazingly, the company that has put more time, people, money, etc. into the latest release of browser has a better product for the two mainstream desktop platforms (Windows & MacOS). Guess which company that is?
.doc and execute it with IE? But, then again, maybe that is your definition of better?
You're not talking about that one company that funnels profits from its OS sales into the browser development team are ya'? The company that tried to bribe Netscape into not making a browser for Win32? The company that has literally 10 times as many developers working on IE as Netscape does on its browser (remember diverting profits from OS to browser)? I didn't think you were talking about that company.
Then we have to get into what your definition of "better" is. My definition of better does not include gaping security holes (like running programs inside the browser, autoexecuting email attachments, ActiveX, etc.). My definition of better does not include ignoring Web standards so thoroughly that even basic MIME-types still confuse IE - ever try to name a Perl script
It's never taken out my machine. What about IE and yours?
Well, it still doesn't support moving floating DIVs around with JavaScript...
If you download and install the GNU tools for Win32, that'll reduce the number of times you run out of memory due to moving files =P
>Using that logic, ext3fs is a piece of shit >because Linux 2.3.1 had some bugs in it. No, ext3fs is a piece of shit because if you have it your probably running fucking run Linux. The idea of running Linux makes me want to rape your mother and vomit. It's bad enough to have an old copy of Red Hat installed for Linux emulation. Everyday I have to stop myself from typing rm -rf /compat/linux "FreeBSD: If you're not running it, what the fuck are you smoking ?"
Using that logic, ext3fs is a piece of shit because Linux 2.3.1 had some bugs in it.
I don't think anyone gives a fuck about the Mac side. You people that run MacOS, Linux, BeOS (gag), and (Christ protect us) OS/2, I'm just constantly amazed, not only by the fact that you are the stupidest cum guzzling whores imaginable, but that you actually have low enough self esteem to be able to ADMIT that you run that shit PUBLICLY. I mean, to publicly humiliate yourself as a complete fucking moron... Seriously. If I was penis loving faggot like yourself, I would HIDE the fact that I have no skills. I would go into the source of my version of Linux and edit the text strings to say FreeBSD. That way I could at least fool the macintosh homos. And if I were one of you MacOS homos, I'd at LEAST move my icons to the LEFT side of the screen, so I could PRETEND I was at LEAST running Windows. At least the Windows 98 kiddies don't give unsolicited admissions that they are little mouse monkies.
I'm about to double click on your mom's clit.
Exactly where do you think Netscape "hid" this magical parallel development for the past two years. What? All the developers posting on the newsgroups and checking in code were just some clever misdirection.
There is the Mozilla code base, and that's it.
Cant anyone realize that it blows?
What the hell happened to Netscape 5.0???
Why?
There's no beta. Or even an alpha yet. Sure, Mozilla M-whatever is now considered "alpha", but *that is NOT what Netscape will ship*. Netscape will be adding crypto, java, and whatever other AOL-friendly customizations they decide on, and the simple fact is, these additions warrant a beta cycle. Netscape has never shipped a major release without a several month long beta period. Even if they start *today* we'll likely not see a release until May.
Now, bear in mind that Netscape is no longer controlled by Netscape. AOL will be deciding what's released when, and if their latest and greatest AOL 5.0 fiasco is any indicator, we could expect to see a bug ridden but colorful Netscape 6.0 released with no beta cycle... I just hope this isn't the case...
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Just lurking, thanks!
We're working hard on integrating Jabber into Mozilla as a native client. Since Jabber is based on XML and Mozilla's own XML functionality is quite advanced, it should be an interesting combination :)
Unfortunately, it's proven quite challenging to integrate two rapidly developing platforms, so if anyone would like to help and can eat XUL/JS for breakfast, let me know.
With Jabber and Mozilla, you'll instantly have AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, and others as we progress. Of course, there's no way in hell it will ship w/ the offical Netscape, but it will be part of Mozilla.
Ooh.... Are they going to incorporate Mozilla into AOL 6.0, in favor of MSIE?
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Umm, the UNIX pasting thing needs to be a configurable option - personally I'm a Mac user, and I hate the "select equals copy" thing. If you want it, that's OK for you, but too often I want to select something without copying it - such as, to select a block of text and replace it with the text that I previously copied. With standard UNIX pasting, I have to delete it first, then re-copy the text I want - or copy first, then click and hold down the delete key for awhile.
UNIX-style pasting works fine for gpm. That's about it.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
http://www.freshmeat.ne t/appindex/1999/08/23/935391329.html
This is completely off-topic but the trolls are out of control today. I just changed my comment prefs to +1 threshold and it's like the IQ level here has suddenly been raised 10-fold. I highly recommend it to anyone tired of the spam trolls. Somethimes they're amusing but overall the trolling quality here is just getting pathetic. Someone needs to write a Troll HOWTO for the LDP.
Why would my boss care which browser I use? Why should I care which browser he uses?
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If you use the gratis-but-closed-source PSM daemon, Mozilla will have SSL.
Just to be clear: The source code has already been released for most of the Personal Security Manager and Network Security Services software that will provide SSL support for Mozilla. The only important parts of the Netscape version of PSM that are closed-source are the encryption libraries licensed from RSA Security. Over time I expect those libraries will be replaced (by someone if not by Netscape) with open source encryption libraries, so that Mozilla will have a complete open source SSL implementation unencumbered by patent or other restrictions.
"Premature optimization is the root of all evil."
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Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right.
****Gfx Scrollbar Special case hit!!*****
It's all marketing anyways. And you want to know the sickest part? it makes a difference. At work now we ported a unix product to NT and we're getting ready to GA. The Unix product is going to be 3.20 (up from 3.13) and the NT product is starting at 1.1, not 1.0, for marketing reasons. We've presold licenses for the 1.1 product where we were having trouble when it was 1.0.
I think what AOL means by "launch" is marketspeak for 'big PR bonanza'.
I believe the web pages for the Mozilla project have claimed that late Summer is the most likely shipping date, and early Fall is probably a more conservative estimate.
-Stu
But "insightful" and "interesting" are just meant to be vague descriptions of why you moderated a post, as opposed to the original +1 / -1.
Insightful posts, imho, usually are of the highest caliber. Informative next, then interesting last.
Overrated / underrated is useful for times when a very _extreme_ opinion is pushed up to say a 5, when really it warrents maybe a 3 or a 4. It's meant to balance out the system when an abnormal number of people swayed to a particular opinion have pumped up everything in favour of it, drowning out the dissenters.
Of course, these things can go vice-versa, as Zico was complaining about.
I don't think there's any solution given the current system other than improving Meta moderation... I still liked the 300-person system better.
-Stu
Check this download from Netscape's developer site. It's example code and documentation for you to plug-in third-party mail and/or news systems. I have Netscape launching Pine with the To: line filled in on my machine, and I don't see why you couldn't get it to launch mutt.
Paranoia isn't an infectious condition, it's a way of life
Great idea! You can decompile the binary into something that we can work with; we'll do the rest.
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Seriously, though, I doubt the source would be much better. :-P
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I did a search on MSDN, but couldn't find anything useful, other than some stuff about embedding IE controls in other apps, which certainly won't help with either of the things I mentioned. In fact, it wouldn't help with much of anything but sticking a new user interface on it, or using its rendering for non-browser apps.
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Password authenticated news works fine in the latest build. It does Java provided you have java 1.3. Most plugins are working via the backward compatibility layer.
The current problems with Mozilla as I see it for a daily browser are:
SSL isn't included (won't ever be in Mozilla?)
There are still dynamic reflow issues.
It still occasionally locks up with 100% CPU.
Opening new windows is slow.
Other than those things, I've been using it for ordinary browsing as much as possible. It makes reading slashdot a breeze, since it reflows as the page is loading.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
If I sound fed up of this cycle, it's because I am. The developers can step off it any time they choose. Users and admins can't. They're stuck, until the developers get on with it.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I'm unashamedly a programmer, and you can be sure I will dig in the moment I get a chance. And, no, that's not a put-off. I -do- patch code, as and when I can, according to my ability.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This -summer-, maybe. But SPRING? AOL must be really into IE to do something =that= fatal to Mozilla.
It needs -much- more debugging, and (at the very least) testing time with all the new stuff Netscape handed out for it. Rushing isn't going to go anywhere, but down.
At the VERY VERY LEAST, Mozilla needs to be as fast as Netscape 3, feature-complete as per the current HTML/DHTML specs, be fully capable of SSL 3.0 at 128 bits (with security auditing, to ensure that unencrypted data isn't retained in vulnerable sections of the disk or memory), have ALL the features of Communicator 4.x, AND support IPv6.
If it's not at that point, it's not ready for shipping.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I agree. I never realised how irritating Netscape was until I tried it after using IE for a while. Remembering state has to be one of the big features that needs to be added. IE has lots of other nice features too, such as useable address completion; decent history and searching; reasonable load time; ability to quickly change the size of the font page; much better keyboard support; ability to tab to picture links and make highlight the picture so that you know it has keyboard focus; etc.
Ever notice how Netscape (4.7 at least) can have trouble rendering some pages? I have a feeling that the pages come from a Microsoft web publishing app. Netscape sits there dead in the water with my CPU clocked out at 100% for a quite a length of time before it displays the page.
Ever notice how the Netscape email tool can have difficulty with email that has come from Outlook? The HTML source of the email looks fine to me, but Netscape displays it with broken links and more irritating: it can be difficult to insert a reply fragment in the middle of the other message (you have to modify the character/paragraph properties to turn off the blockquote).
I'm not saying MSIE doesn't irritate me either (boy, do I wish that I could manually edit the list of user name and password autocompletions), it's just a lot less so.
Why is this version 6? Because IE is at 5.x and Netscape want's to look ahead of IE. Let's be glad they didn't make it version 2000 :-)
Will the Mozilla browser also be released as Mozilla 6.0 or as the more sane Mozilla 5.0?
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Anybody know if vanilla Netscape is/was skinnable? (i.e., no Mozilla)
.Xdefaults file.
if you're talking about windows, you really can't do much to it outside of changing the colors ala windows themes. in which case, of course, that doesn't really count, because you're changing all of your winddows, not just netscape.
in linux, you can do a lot of funky stuff to your netscape windows via motif and Xresources. it's not easy, i've tried it, but i have seen other people who have done amazingly cool stuff to their netscape windows with this. run editres, and import the widget tree from your running copy of netscape navigator/communicator. it should give you a whole list of widgets, and you can change the color, shodow, border width, text font, maybe set a background image...
anyway, it takes a lot of patience, and your average user probably wouldn't consider it too worthwhile. the other problem is that you can't really pack up your customizations as an easily installable "skin". you have to manually add the changes to your
If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
... makes sense in this case.
You see Microsoft has a version 5 out there that really isn't better than Netscape 4.7. At least not by much. However if they release Netscape 5.0 over a year after MSIE 5 and with very little by way of additional whiz bang gizmos it will not take off amount the clue-less.
This is why NT4 was renamed Win2K. It's why Sun has Solaris 7 out. With a version 6.0 on the filename all they have to do is come close to MSIE on the feature charts to be taken seriously.
However Mozilla for me isn't "close to IE". It is significantly faster across the lan ( Net service is too crapy here for me to tell ). Mozilla actually complies with every applicable internet standard.
Most importantly; Mozilla can run as an IE plugin so all a Webmaster needs to do is make his site comply with the written standards and test it with Mozilla. After that you put a "Get Plugzilla now" button on your site.
The other reason for the rename of course is that AOL-5.0 is already out and it runs MSIE-4.0 as the browse engine. They don't want to confuse the "Hello #Room" crowd by upgrading to a version 6 AOL that uses a version 5 engine.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
It's at the stage where "the dogfood company is having to test it's own product by eating it themselves." Of course this isn't to be taken literally. It's just that all or most of the employess are now using the product to really hone the debugging to a sharp edge and ferret out every last little bug (theoretically of course.)
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"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein
Co-founder and designer at Music Nearby: http://musicnearby.com
Yup, way before the internet became popular, AOL was there, and I subscribed to them. I didn't like their service so I cancelled, they kept charging me for several months to my credit card. And lots of other people had the same problem
Their lack of principles is nothing new..
I don't think the problem is debug code. Rather, there are probably still unoptimized hot-spots in the code. Check out the .performance newsgroup; people will report that profiling shows a method is getting called 2000 times a second, and the function is either optimized or code rearranged to call it less often.
Rather than trying your experiment, I think I'd just donate that 486 piece of garbage to a nice non-profit that needs to use WP 5.1a for DOS and get a new computer.
Amazingly, I use a modern computer to run modern software.
Amazingly, the company that has put more time, people, money, etc. into the latest release of browser has a better product for the two mainstream desktop platforms (Windows & MacOS). Guess which company that is?
I believe one of the documents in the LDP mentions this, and says that Linux does this same thing. Does Windows have this feature?
I personally hope that Microsoft and AOLscape end up settling down on nearly equal shares of the browser market. When two products have to go head-to-head for the long term, they've gotta constantly work on satisfying the customer. As a result, the customer wins. The perfect example is Coke and Pepsi.
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Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Umm... maybe if it didn't take 900 megs of free space and several hours to build, you might see more "evidence" of the type you are looking for. FYI, any program compiled with debug symbols (from the largest to the smallest) gets speeded up quite a bit when those are removed (300% is probably ridiculous, but a doubling isn't completely out of the question.) Learn a little bit about the subject at hand before you flame away...
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
I've also run across it (only) on the Mozilla project, and it didn't really explain why they call usability bugs dogfood (0xd06f00d?) bugs. I don't get it -- "dogfood" is not a really catchy term, especially in print, and it doesn't seem like much of a substitute for "usability" without an explanation.
My company has standardized on Netscape 3.0 (!) and they have a customized icon...
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Mozilla is the only app I've seen that puts a custom icon in the Gnome Tasklist - anyone know how this is done?
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Mozilla M13 renders tables while still receiving the data. The first time I saw this on a page that is one large table, I was amazed. Try Slashdot with Mozilla and you won't believe the difference.
The Mozilla team should set their sights a lot higher than Netscape -- otherwise, what's the point?
Well, what do most computer buyers base their purchase on? "This one's got the most megahertz!" What about cars (150 horsepower...)? Soda (One Calorie)?
A mediocore product with good marketing sells far better far longer than a good product with bad marketing.
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Earth first? Oooh, and I was thinking of paying the rent.
Oh, so now your high and mighty because you use Java? Give me a break.
No corporation should seriously use Java. For true cross-browser compatability, there is no choice but something performed server-side (with tools like PHP or ASP or ColdFusion or Perl). Server-side operations, besides being much more secure, have the added benifit that neither does the user have to download the program nor be using some new-fangled browser.
Java, when used correctly, can do some things that a server-side application can't, such as Yahoo games. But most serious web applications are NOT done in Java.
Yes, but what if Im running Lynx through a telnet window?
there's much more to that then you think: AOL is stills tuck with a proprietry format. To replace that with HTML maens giving away their business to M$ madnass (who control the browser). Building AOL6 on top of Mozilla is the only way to be able to go HTML and not surrender to M$ PLUS its cross platform so that "AOL everywhere" sloagn is finally possible...
And think about THIS: AOL browser has a 30% share in teh browser scene. Right now AOL browser == IE. What happens when they shift?
THose who think the browser war is over dont know nothing : THIS is the reason AOL bought Netscape to begin with.
Gilad.
Actually, IE5 is enormously better than Netscape 4.7. Though I prefer Netscape's UI, the fact remains that the Netscape 4.x rendering engine has not seen any significant change since 1997. Netscape 4.x does a miserable job with stylesheets, and is utterly clueless about XML. IE, on the other hand, seems to do quite well with these, even if it does not fully conform to the specs. I don't mean to imply that IE is better in every respect, but I am saying that under the hood, IE5 beats Netscape hands down.
It's a good thing that Mozilla will enable Netscape to catch up with and surpass IE5 in terms of under-the-hood excellence. However, I still think that skipping Netscape version 5 is a really bad idea. Although Mozilla is becoming quite capable and usable, it will be months before it is stable and feature-complete enough to release as Netscape 5.0.
I think that for Netscape to be so brash as to call its next browser version 6.0, the browser should be able to trounce IE 5.x by fully supporting CSS2 and XSL, among other things. It's not even close. Calling this well-intentioned-but-underdone browser "Netscape 6.0" will just set it up to be beaten by a superior IE 6.0. Netscape should just cut the crap and be honest about its version number, because otherwise it will just lose more credibility in the long run.
Admittedly, this sort of control over the UI is also one of the driving forces behind Microsoft's integration strategy: the difference is that the Microsoft way means Windows-only, and the XUL way works the same across all supported platforms.
The other nice difference, at least for many Web developers, is that we don't have to code in C or Java anymore -- we can use XML and JavaScript instead.
I hope this helps clear up any confusion caused by the AOL droid's misuse of terminology. :)
Zontar The Mindless,
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Hello.
Just thought everyone should know this:
Both the daily builds and compiling from sources give you a file called simplebrowser in the Mozilla Bin directory.
This file is basically Gecko w/ a thin GTK UI on top. It loads VERY fast, and renders faster. It seems really stable, and doesn't have ANY bloat (As it doesn't do anything other than be a simple browser.)
No mail/news/bookmarks/Right Mosue Button just a back, forward and a place to type in the URL.
Boy is it fast, boy is it sweet, and it gives you the full power of mozilla.
Check it out!
Ben
Side note.. I use IE5.1, Its FAST, stable and its skinable. Its user interface needs work..
Netscape crashs too much but it UI is Perfect.
Mozilla is still in the works, its UI is the worst I have ever seen.
I have always felt that the value judgements in the moderation system were not a good idea, and that it was better off with straight points up/down. For some reason, "insightful" really makes me twitch ... having a dozen posts marked up as "insightful" just feels too damn touchy-feely, too loose with the term. And "interesting" is as subjective as it gets.
I imagine "overrated" was supposed to be used to mark down posts that were moderated up for no good reason, as a check against moderation inflation. The one I see abused most often is "redundant", actually.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
You should caveat that with "Java on the client side."
Java on the server side works great. I work at IBM and our website does megabucks each quarter with Java on the server side.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
I think the name will be AOL's Heuristic Online Link Explorer.
We'll know it as A-HOLE!
Just a joke....
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Hi, I'm sitting behind a SOCKS firewall at work, and I can't figure out how to make mozilla work with it. Any ideas? It sure looks great on the intranet, but I want to read /. with it.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
I don't have a Netscape file under app-defaults, so I'm not sure what has to be in it.
.Xdefaults file:
;) Maybe if I can get it figured out, I'll write one.
I assume it is like an
app*attribute: value
But what attributes are to be set? (Is there a howto on this?
This sig is false.
.
This sig is false.
I distinctly remember using Word 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 on the Mac side (still have Word 5, though I never use it). I don't know how the PC versions went...
Jay (=
Not quite. Word for Windows 2.0 was out at the same time as Word 5.0 (which was available for DOS). When Word 6.0 came out, they gave the Windows version the same number as the DOS version. So while the Windows version went from 2.0 to 6.0, Word for Windows 2.0 was not Word 2.0.
The customizable throbber icon thing first showed up in, of all things, OS/2's WebExplorer.
It was, at the time, on my 14.4k modem, the most amazingly interminable thing i'd ever seen embedded in a web page, I mean, damn, like 40k at the front of a web page just so the activity indicator would look different.
WebEx also had a simplified version of IE's browsing history.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
The RSA patent expires in 6 months.
it sure will be interesting to see where cryptography goes after that.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
"Browsers.com says that it will be communicator 5.0
You know, as long as version numbers are coming out of the marketing departments, there's no sense in trying to justify them at all. Maybe "Version 6" makes sense, maybe it doesn't -- who cares.
If you are the kind of person that is impressed by larger numbers, then you probably don't understand or care to understand what the number is supposed to mean. You also may be impressed that "Tide" laundry detergent has been "New and Improved!" continually for the last 20 years.
On the other hand, if you know the history of Mozilla/Netscape and are just happy to have the software, you are probably smart enough to ignore the version number or realize that it's like an automobile's model number -- only useful as a piece of nomenclature. You don't care if it's Netscape v. 32.5 or IE 3000 -- you will use the product that meets your technical need. The marketers know this, and consequentially ignore you and your archaic ideas that version numbers have anything to do with the engineering process.
(Put another way, you can only gain sales by inflating the version number, you will never lose them.)
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
What'ssa matter? You can't just change random things with a hex editor and see what happens? What's wrong with you! Wimp.
Just kidding, flamers.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
I hope, but how much is all speculation. I'd kinda like to see someone strip all the debug code out of a milestone release if nothing else just to see what kind of difference it makes
With an inflated version number, how can we lose?
:)
Why not just call it Netscape 2000 and get it over with.
Hell let's bring the linux kernel up into the current decade, considering that DOS 3 has been dead for years, it's embarassing that I have to use an OS that is still in the 2 series. I mean, get with the times, Linus.
Finkployd
Oh, and seriously, I'm eagerly awaiting this release, go Mozilla!
They're probably going to release AOL 6, at the same time as Communicator 6.
Pure AOL marketing.. nothing to see here...
GNOME's html widget looks mildly interesting to me, despite that it's in C instead of C++.
Actually, GNOME's html widget is based on KDE's html widget, which is written in C++. :-)
if you wanna be paranoid how about "AOL Universal Internet Operating System 6 (540 hours of free access)".
Under linux it also eats up all the memory and when you close it, half the time you have to kill it to free the memory.
The reasons are three-fold:
NC 4.7 was about as buggy as I've ever seen. It crashes at the drop of a hat, and I find myself on the Netscape knowledgebase as often as not when using the browser. IE 5.0 wasn't nearly so bad off, there were some initial bugs, but it was basically more stable.
IE panders to the ISPs and companies that wish to release mildly customized versions to end-users. Netscape, for the most part, doesn't.
M$ found nice ways to integrate IE into EVERYTHING. I found it rather annoying when I installed Visual Basic 6.0 Enterprise that it noticed that I didn't have an IE installation on my PC and went right ahead and installed it. More annoying, when I uninstalled IE, VB stopped working. (Anti-trust suit anyone?). This is the case with a LOT of things. If you are going to try to develop using the MMC, you won't be using Netscape or any non-IE browser for the task, even though you can run the MMC w/out IE.
The first and third points are probably the biggest issues facing Netscape. They have complete control over the former, and the latter might be being taken care of as we speak. At any rate, I look forward to Mozilla being made fit for human consumption soon.
-Jer
If you're going to try to talk up a browser that isn't even out yet, then why are you comparing it to IE 5? Although IE 5 already kicks Netscape's buttocks (whether your talking about 4.x or the 6.0 pre-releases), IE 5.5 will do so even more thoroughly and still might be released while you're sitting around waiting for Netscape 6. (Of course, they'll probably rename it to IE 6 to comfort any suckers who fall for Netscape's silly version number jump.)
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
I see "redundant" misused a fair amount, although I can't say that I remember it being abused very often. Usually, the misuse seems to comes about from the order in which the moderator is reading the post -- and unless his viewing is set to "Flat, Oldest First (Ignore Threads), he's not going to be reading them in chronological order. So, he just happens to read a comment just like one he's already read, and even though it actually was posted before the one he read first, he ends up marking it down. I rarely see "Redundant" used out of spite, unlike "Over-rated."
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
...is the "over-rated" category. Nowadays, "over-rated" is a synonym for "You weren't trolling or posting flamebait, I just don't like your opinion." I see posts which had freakin' "1" scores get marked down as "over-rated" simply because the moderator wanted the poster to get marked down for his views or because the moderator didn't want other people seeing his viewpoint. Moderators know that nobody ever marks "over-rated" posts as unfair in metamoderation, so it's the safe, coward's way of stifling dissent without risking anything.
And yeah, this post is off-topic with regards to the Mozilla article (although not to the parent post), so I'm not going to feel ripped off if someone marks it down as such. I just feel the matter needed to be pointed out, though, and that's why I'm posting it with the +1 bonus.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
OK, maybe it's been said before - but Netscape 4.x is crap, and I hope Mozilla fixes some of these INSANE bugs:
1. Tables. I use these in EVERYTHING, and Netscape screws them over EVERY. DAMN. TIME.
Example 1: you can't apply a background color to an entire table. Netscape IGNORES it. Exception: If you set it in CSS, it works. This is EXTREMELY annoying. (See CSS section below)
Example 2: Create a table. Place an image as a background of one of the cells. Now, place a SECOND table in that cell. Give it a background color.( or image ). Enjoy the wonderful gibbling of the image. This has existed since NN 4.0 - and apparently is still in 4.7. It occurs on windows and Linux, as well.
Example 3: The nowrap tag. mm, mm, good. NOT. IE handles this as you would expect - it applys to the you use it in, and not any nested tables. Netscape says "no, you used nowrap in this table cell - so EVERYTHING has nowrap applied to it. Even this nested table that you've entered lots of text into. Wee! Let's make the table several screens wide!"
2. CSS. Wow. Let's talk crap. Doesn't the specification state that you can override a previously defined style with an inline one? Well, Netscape doesn't think so. If it's previously defined - such as a table background - then everything has that style.
Example: Try using (span color="#ffffff") tags to change stuff, such as color. It works in IE, but not in NN.
3. Frames. Netscape has this WONDERFUL little bug with NOT understanding "zero width" frames. IE says "sure, go ahead. that frame is there, just with no width.". Netscape, on the other hand, FORCES a 5 - 10 pixel width frame, even when explicitly told NOT to.
Example: http://wallpaper.twysted.net - look at it in both browsers. (this was an attempt to cloak a URL.) In IE - it works 100% the way it should. Netscape, on the other hand...
Anyways - that's enough of a rant for now. Perhaps some things are due to me expecting the same behavior in NN as in IE. I do my coding for IE - then curse NN for at least 3 hours while I attempt to make it look correct. This is even with validated HTML sometimes.
Maybe Mozilla will be better - I'll have to wait and see.
-- Karma is for people who think they matter.
Despite the supposed greatness of the Mozilla product, I'm extremely disappointed to see that Netscape has fallen into the Microsoft pit of renaming version numbers.
This latest move by NS is extremely disappointing. Obviously someone in marketing thinks that because IE is already 5.5, a Netscape product at version 5 would appear to be an inferior product just due to one number.
So they call it Netscape 6.0, and somehow it sounds better than IE? What a crock of shit. Just what the hell was NS 5 then? NS 4.7 was a sorry excuse for Netscape, which was buggier than 4.6 IMHO.
-Michael J. Lu
-Michael J. Lu
"The little secret that haunts Corporate America...a techonology that won't go away."
What is the codebase for the current AOL5 browser(upgrade of death)?
If AOL 5.0 is based on IE, and the next revision of AOL will be based on the Mozilla codebase, wouldn't this explain the version increment?
It seems plausible that the grand plan might be to align the version numbering with a view to diminishing the visibility of one or the other, I'll leave the identity of the most likely candidate to the reader...
Anyone know what happened to the BeOS port of Mozilla? The last version they released was Milstone 8. I hope it isn't dead...
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
I see IE 5 ans IE 4.5... just a bunch of bug fixes, and some additional 'funk'chionality. It was deffinatly not worth the leap in rev numbers. Although truthfully, I used IE for about a total of 5 minutes over the past 3 years... I've used milestone releases of Mozilla more!
I really wish Mozilla/Netscape, and yes, AOL, luck in the new version. From the milestone releases.. being way pre alpha to alpha... the speed is amazing.
1.3L, 3 moving parts, 280 HP, no Turbos, wanna Race? RotaryNe
"The new browser looks similar to Communicator 4.7, with some noticeable differences ... the most notable difference is the way AOL said it will distribute the product ... The company plans to allow Web sites to launch their own branded versions of the browser"
That tells me it's not Mozilla (which doesn't look that much like 4.7, according to screenshots I've seen.) More likely, it's just good (?) old (!) Communicator, with some little frills, and the ability to distribute branded versions.
Branded versions of Netscape are nothing new. When AT&T WorldNet Services first launched, we distributed Netscape (2.0 I think) with a "death star" logo in the upper right.
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
FYI, Mozilla's UI is in its entirety composed in XUL, eXtensible Ui Language, an XML variant. Thus, the entire look of the app can be changed, even by a web page. M13 includes a "Classic 4.x" theme, but I haven't been able to change themes in M13 (and the latest Linux nightly build wouldn't start at all, so i don't know how it's now)
---
Ilmari
© ilmari. All rights reserved, all wrongs reversed
I just figured the fools forgot how to count.
So... if MS can do it, why can't everyone else. The only reason I can see that MS would do that was so that the Excel version would match the Word Version as Excel 4.0 and Word 6.0 were pacaged together. Then there's also the fact that Corel were marketing Corel WordPerfect 7 at the time.
My $0.02 =)
Maybe the Slashdot people could help a bit on optimizing and debugging it (there's very few "hackers" working on Mozilla; it's mostly Netscape staff)
:) There's a GTK module called GtkMozilla but Mozilla's too stable to consider something like this at the moment.
I sincerely hope this become stable enough so I can make a customized version of Mozilla with GPLTrans logos on it
US businesses that currently accept chip and PIN/signature
If I use NS 4.7 for Mac and visit a page with a style sheet link in the and then change the style sheet -- add a special attribute for all TD, for example -- Netscape does not reload the style sheet when the page is reloaded. I don't think this really affects the average joe, but when you're testing to see how different attributes look on a page it's very annoying. IE 4.5 DOES reload the style sheet when you click reload.
___________________
rooooar
I may be misunderstanding, but a simple "strip `find .`" would seem to suffice...
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think you just crossed it.
--
- Sean
It's a fine line between trolling and karma-whoring... and I think I just crossed it.
- Sean
A work around would be to enable caching of course...
Nope, sadly IE is superior. But I still use netscape when I work under windows, because I am opposed to the way it is 'marketed' (read: forced down your throat). Yes, you could call this similar to the companies that 'block' linux, with one difference: Those companies are trying to make profit, so it is stupid for them to `block' out clients. I on the other hand, have no such agenda, I'm just trying really hard to change the world into a imho better place... Anyway, the file is useless to you if you don't have a *nix installed, and if you have a *nix installed you have wget.
It's possible with netscape: have a look at muttzilla.
It's not only removing the if (DEBUG) { } parts
(Yes, I know about #ifdef, that's not the point),
but also optimizing lots of functions. However, optimized they are very difficult to debug. Optimization is a lot of work, and it's senseless to waste time on it if a lot of things are going to be changed anyway.
Hmmm, for some reason /. posted that message as AC there, so I'll repeat:
/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/Netscape
In netscape, you can have hjkl motion keys, in case you didn't know:
have a look at
It was just about time... Netscape has been lagging behind IE for Windows users...
Until there are significant new HTML standards that browsers need to be upgraded for
I agree that browsers are turning into (or are already shovelware...
BUT
Some of the important underlying technologies like XML are in fact developing quite rapidly, so these frequent upgrades are important. The issue is getting browser developers to exercise some sort of restraint as to the feature list.
I absolutely HATE netscape!
Netscape has a lot of problems, especially the fact that it crashes so much. No browser should crash just from getting a bad tag.
HOWEVER I think IE has some big-time problems, too. These affect web developers more than end users because developers usually test their pages with IE so the users don't see these gotchas. The big one is that IE makes decisions on it's own about what it thinks you mean rather than just doing what you tell it to.
For example, if you use text/plain encoding, and then follow it with some HTML, IE will ignore your encoding directive and process the HTML anyway. A page with text/plain encoding can come out as plain text under Netscape (as it should) and incorrectly as HTML on IE.
There are any number of examples of this sort of behavior - and it really sucks because as a developer you just cannot count on IE following the spec - like so many Microsoft products it tries to do too much rather than the right thing.
I don't know how much the debugging symbols slow things down, but that are a several aspects to this that DO slow an application down. Aggressive optimizations make use of debuggers difficult. Use of assertions, checks for error returns and similar code, especially in tight loops can have a significant affect, too.
"Mozilla will be Netscape 6.0" ??
Isn't Mozilla independant from Netscape? I guess an accurate phrasing would be "Next Mozilla-based Netscape will be Netscape 6.0"
Besides, over on Mozillazine they discounted this as a rumor.
You don't want to beat IE. The only thing bad about IE is it's potential to be forced onto consumers. Having one dominant product in an area is bad. So what if Netscape overtakes IE? With AOL/Time Warner/Sun/Netscape/iPlanet/whoever, we have just as dangerous of a situation, a huge company that can force a product on the market. Whether it's netscape or IE, it's still going to hurt the general public.
Even with two, you can see this "browser war" as the media likes to call it is not beneffiting us. It's creating a bunch of web sites that either customize content to one browser, or maybe both netscape and IE. Great, so when I go to Nissan's website with iCab, all I see is a black background because it doesn't know what browser I have and uses JavaScript to check for IE or Netscape.
The only way *we* can win is with standards. Unfortunately, no one cares about this stuff. Websites want flash, and they don't seem to mind alienating customers by requiring the latest browser with javascript, flash, etc. Now a lot of people think Netscape/Mozilla can save us because it's supposedly standards compliant. Well, read the article here. Customized browser versions used to customize conent for the browser. Does that sound like an idea from a company who is really commited to open standards?
No, the web should be accesible to anyone. I'm sorry to say at this point though, it looks like we're all going to loose no matter who wins the browser war.
Have you ever taken a look at the sheer number of security bugs in IE, from Windows Update?
I get that sometimes too. What works for me is to minimize the window and then restore it. This brings the menus back.
RealAudio and RealVideo work only in few cases. Most of the time, clicking on an RA / RV / RAM link will result in no action at all. ASF / ASX support is great, though ;-) Not that surprising!
I wouldn't be surprised if this weren't a problem with realaudio. A more bloated, buggy piece of software is hard to find..
Personally, ie5 is quite stable for me, and I use it over netscape and opera whenever I'm forced to be booted into windows for whatever reason. Besides the fact that its stable, I also like the autocomplete feature, the fact that it brings up a dialog that lets you organize a bookmark at the time you create it, and that when I click a link off a long page, then come back to it, the browser is always in the same place where I left off. I can't explain how annoying it is to be reading the comments for an article, click to read a nested comment, press back and find myself at some random place on the page, instead of where I left off. Pet peeve I guess.
Anyway, I sincerely hope mozilla turns out as good as its hyped to be, because linux is in severe need of a browser as nice as ie5, imho. A lot of the time I spend at my computer is spent tooling around on the web, and since netscape is so painful to use, I do most of it in windows.
-KMS
Mozilla's actualy pretty slow on my windows box. I'm assumming its beacuse it's a 'debugging' build. but it is slow.
IE is fast and smooth, and netscape4... not even worth useing.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
RealAudio and RealVideo work only in few cases. Most of the time, clicking on an RA / RV / RAM link will result in no action at all. ASF / ASX support is great, though ;-) Not that surprising!
Are you tyring to use Windows Media player? It used to support RM, but not anymore, I think beacuse of legial issues. I hate realplayer, and I won't install it. (Its not like theres anything worth watching on the 'net anyway. and there's plenty of ASF/MPEGs)
Installing realplayer will probably fix that, unless IE is really fucked up. (I've never seen anything like that)
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Of course, netscape locks up for like 3 minutes when it renders any large slashdot page, regardless of widgets.
:)
Slashdot is actualy the real reason I switched from Netscape to IE
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
You should have at least tried getting mozzila, it's a bit slow beacuse of the debugging stuff, but It can pretty much do everything IE can.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I can see the MS release now: "See, having the browser tied to the operating has nothing to do with consumer OS choice...". Sheesh.
The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
But then again, if you're stupid enough to buy something on the basis of its version number, then you're buying the hype and not the product, so you've got what you paid for.
:)
I don't think so. I usually avoid *.0 versions of most commercial software (especially MS "software") because of bugginess. There's usually a *.0.1 or *.1 version released a couple of months later anyhow and by then it's cheaper. Windows 98, however, is very different from 95. It is larger, slower and less robust in areas, and it has IE4 installed.
Besides, remember that people are dumb. Individuals are smart, but people in general usually act dumb. That's why it's such a big deal that IE is a 5.0 browser. I've had people swear up and down that this "proves" MS has left Netscape in the dust. Imagine my fun trying to explain what a "Mozilla milestone" was to them.
The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
IE isn't tied into NT4.
MS says that IE4 is required for NT's Y2K compliance. Furthermore, since when have you been able to stroll down to your local shop and purchase a Linux copy of IE? IE isn't tied into NT, but NT (or some other Windows) is tied into IE. Using small words: You can have Windows with no IE, but not IE with no Windows. Hence, browser choice to a great degree influences OS preference. Hence, *since* the browser is tied to the OS (as in, cannot escape the OS), you can't have the one without the other. QED, glad we agree.
Anyway, it has nothing to do with the tying, it has to do with the fact that IE works and Netscape doesn't. Who the hell could serious use Linux as a desktop machine when it doesn't have a working webbrowser?
Precisely my point. The plain fact is, IE doesn't exist on Linux, and it never will. It doesn't exist on any Windows competitors (Macs don't compete on the same hardware). If you like IE (and let's face it, there's not a whole lot of difference, it's mainly personal preference) then hmmm.. which OS should you choose for that Athlon, sparky?
For the record, Netscape seems to be the most unstable program on my linux box. It also crashes most often on my Windows machine, but that could just be because it's always running. I don't use IE4 because while it does seem to render HTML properly, there are so many little edges which remain tied to Windows. MS calls it "integration" and I call it "coupling" - as in that principle they taught us all was BAD in data abstraction. Since I don't want the same type associations for my browser and my file manager, I choose Netscape.
Besides, Netscape seems to "work" on my machines. If you're going to define "work" as "does exactly what I want all the time", we could extend your question a little: Who the hell could seriously use Windows as a desktop machine when it doesn't have a working memory manager, file system, multitasking manager, GUI shell, command line shell, or logging facility? Heck it doesn't even have a working web browser!
The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
Have people here still not realized that the next-generation Netscape is NOTHING like the last versions.
It was written from scratch using "the opensource way", with paid help from Netscape engineers.
This edition has an incredible bug-system, Bugzilla, an enormous amount of people looking at the code, trying to find bugs, and has really very little in common with other Netscape-products.
If you hate Netscape 4.x, that's fair. I think it is a horrible and buggy program, that I'm forced to use as a Linuxuser, because of no viable alternatives.
It is however very unfair to expect the same from this, as former Netscape releases.
Netscape 6.0 is nothing more than, Mozilla, the opensourceproducts, with some proprietary addons, that Netscape cannot release.
And to the question, why we don't hack IE. While I think IE is mostly a good browser, building a new, next-generation browser from scratch is actually a far less waste of resources.
If someone thinks Mozilla will fail, think again. It is a small browser, that is already slated to be included in internet-TV-boxes, and other embedded products.
It will also, unlike IE, be available for an enormous amount of platforms, it is written partly in XML, which makes it part of the internet-technology instead of just using it.
Mozilla will be released, it will be good, it will be worked further on, and it will really rule. I have absolutely no doubt that the press will eat it's words when they finally see a browser that doesn't muck up open internet-protocols, but uses them well.
And now
Does anyone remember any others?
I'm using IE 5 right now (note that I'm not the original poster). What I really dislike (apart from the eventual 'an internal error occurred' message box that pops up after program termination) is the fact that sometimes (cannot really say why this happens) I click on the menu bar (e.g. File) and the menu won't come up! All I can do is terminate that instance and start a new one. That's really annoying...
;-) Not that surprising!
After a very long period of surfing (> 5 hrs) problems arise that will make opening new instances create new windows that never really render and simply have a sand clock in them.
RealAudio and RealVideo work only in few cases. Most of the time, clicking on an RA / RV / RAM link will result in no action at all. ASF / ASX support is great, though
But with all the problems, IE is way better than Netscape (from my personal experience). Opera, for me, doesn't render certain pages properly. But it has a nice zooming feature...
If Mozilla fulfills only part of what I've heard I will drop every other browser instantaneously...
I entirely agree with this comment. The same goes for typography: an em-dash is — for example (that's: —), double quotes are “ and ” (like “this”) and so on. My pages are full of things like that: if you see them as funny — strings and so on, your browser is broken.
The Bugzilla bug-tracking system is sooo cool it makes you want to file bug reports just so you can play with it.
Why, you can even vote for your favorite bugs to determine which ones should be fixed prioritarily. I voted for bugs 4722 and 27505. I encourage Slashdot readers to give the Lizard a try and to file bug reports (or at least to votes for the ones you find more troublesome rather than complain about them here).
The beta release will be version 187.2. It should take quite awhile for the other browsers to catch up. Unfortunately support for tables won't be until version 212.8, I apologize for that. CSS support will be in version 1,984,232.8.
In related news, in order to keep up with Microsoft, the next release of the linux kernel will be version 2002.2.0, 2002.1.0 is just the developer release.
Andrew
A pre-release of 5.0 was the code Netscape opensourced to Mozilla. After the stuff Netscape didn't own was ripped out, what was left was a basket case. After 6 months Mozilla tossed it and started over. Netscape 5.0 existed but wasn't released. So the new browser IS 6.0.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
not really, there maybe diffrent skins for diffrent sites, ie a cnn skin that helps you find stuff on cnn, but then load then /. skin for /. etc...
now this should be a user option...
nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
--Colonel Burr 1783
I have M13 and it doesn't save the scroll position. However there is an open bug, 16806, on this very issue, with a target of Beta 1 or 2 at the latest.
Yep kinda annoys me too, but hey the file will d/l when it d/l's. No amount of knowing details about it's size or other attributes will make it suck down any faster.
I absolutely HATE this about IE, it was one of the reasons I switched back to Netscape at 4.5 after using IE for awhile. (That and the fact that IE kept crashing, not displaying local gifs for some stupid reason, etc.) I know having the info there isn't going to make it go any faster, but I'm a geek goddammmit, I NEED INFO!!!
I dual boot and so use Netscape 4.7 in both OS's. It is possible to completly remove AIM from the 4.7 browser. before rebooting (shudder) after the install, delete the c:\program files\netscape\whatever\aim directory. then after rebooting (shudder) play around with one of the configs (forget which one right now) and delete the now broken AIM link from the toolbar.
Not entirely correct; The Word re-versioning brought all Word versions to the same number; at that point, IIRC, there was Word for DOS 5.2 (because of WP 5.1 ;-), Word for Mac 5.4 (or 4.5?) and finally Word for Windows 2.0. Which was moronic of course, sine WfW was more advanced than the DOS version...
engineers never lie; we just approximate the truth.
Netscape 6.0
Opera 7.2
Lynx 345.242
MSIE 1234
Oh! Wait... they use years now.
But then this particular number will fit them also...
Applets aren't exactly cross-platform compliant. I've just written a fairly complex applet, showing planes taking off and landing; IE renders the background, the threads work in Netscape, but not vice versa. Works fine in appletviewer 1.1 though, so I must be doing it right :(
This looks like more media mess that Mozilla has put up with for so long. I doubt that the final product from Mozilla will be done this spring. M13 is considered "alpha" and I think that is a great step forward (works VERY well too) but there is still MUCH to do. It has been proven time and time again that you cannot put a future release date on Open Source Software. It will be "finished" when it is finished.
I don't understand the bull about letting companies offer thier own customized version of Mozilla. This is Open Source -- *I* can release my own version of it.
And explain "Until now, Netscape has relied partly on its open-source development organization, Mozilla.org, to speed development of its Communicator browser, with volunteers and paid developers refining the product." What is the "until now" part mean? I don't like this....
Jack Neely
Ever tried developing cross-browser web apps? I do that every day and it has produced a dislike for Netscape in me and all of the web developers I work with. IE is so much more /understanding/ and flexible. The DOM offers so many more features and objects.
A good example is the ability to disable (gray out) form controls. We started development on a project using [control].enabled=false to prevent the data from being passed back to the server. This seemed like such a basic property we didn't even check to see if Netscape supported it. Of course it does not, and we had to kludge using hidden fields.
I don't have any predjudice against Netscape; rather I think competition is an excellent thing. If they start creating a better product than IE I will switch instantly. IMHO they aren't there yet.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Thanks for that rant. Mozilla M13 handles that behaviour correctly, and works fine on /. so it may be what you're looking for.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
I'm getting tired of pointing this out, but you can't say that the final Mozilla will be slow just because the alpha is slow. Prerelease versions are full of debugging code which slow things down but make it easier to spot bugs. When a final version is released, all this will be gone. So wait for a release before you judge Mozilla's speed.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
I don't know how you managed to get that impression from the poster's comments. He just said "IE had an advantage cos ISPs could customise it". And also that there are things he hates about IE.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Yes, M13 (the most recent development release) doesn't reload the page when you resize the window. It also remembers which bit of a page you were up to, when you press the back button.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Go on then, what's stopping it? Remember that nearly the whole of Netscape is now using and working on Mozilla (since M12ish) and that bugs can be squashed very rapidly once the program is feature-complete.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
I think it's silly to care what version number Netscape gets. I believe it is a marketing ploy. But given that it is a marketing ploy, I see nothing wrong with it. The consumer is not being decieved. There really is a big difference between this and Netscape 4.7.
Windows 98 is very similar to Windows 95, so the differential version numbering is more likely to give a false impression that there's a big difference. But then again, if you're stupid enough to buy something on the basis of its version number, then you're buying the hype and not the product, so you've got what you paid for.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Try selling it to your boss as Netscape; you'll find it much easier than as Mozilla.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Erm ... hacking IE isn't possible unless you're Microsoft, cos you don't have the source. You can possibly embed the rendering engine in your own app but no more than that. And in future, if MS wish to remove certain functionality from IE for their own reasons (e.g. breaking HTML 4 compliance some more to make it harder for other browsers to compete), then IE users get left high and dry.
Instead, for the last two years people have been hacking Netscape into something more useable. You will have a good web solid web browser and nobody can stop anybody from adding building on it. Sounds like a much safer future IMO.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Seems ok to me ... if you ignore the MS nagger screen saying "get IE" that is. But if there are any problems, then remember that hotmail is MS and that writing a browser which can parse shit in the same way as IE, yet is also standards compliant, is a very difficult and moving target. BTW, at least in Linux, it is *never* necessary for something to have X amount of RAM, though it will run bloody slowly if you don't have a certain amount.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Are you saying that it's important to have a web browser which can access hotmail, but it's not important to ensure that other people can't then access your hotmail account? Or reformat your hard disk?
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
As all the unwashed public knows, the current Linux version is 6.1 :-)
I thought N 5.0 was supposed to be mozilla? Am I just clueless (high probability) or has something changed?
Ah well, 6 should be a ways off. Just make 5 able to run without crashing all the time. At this point, I'd use IE (or neoplanet) if I could get used to the different interface.
Intolerant people should be shot.
Read the article. Maybe some at slashdot should have as well.
NS takes about 5 secs to load on my computer (with NO loading times on menus), while it takes IE 10 just to load and 5 secs for each menu I open on the top. Netscape is definately faster on my computer. I also don't like the idea of Windows crashing if IE gets an error. At least I can safely ctrl-alt-delete my way out of Netscape.
but I've been using the Alpha version of Mozilla and I'm impressed. There is a certain elegance and ease of use that is not present in any other browser. It renders pages beautifully and quickly, even in light of the fact that there is still a lot of debugging code. I think we all owe the developers/testers a huge debt. They are giving us a first class browser and almost as important, they are giving us a choice.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Slackware went to 7.0 (its my distro. of choice but still the move was uncalled for).
;), we would be on Slackware 47 by now. (it would actually be in the 20s somewhere if we'd gone 1, 2, 3...)
:)
;)
I have to disagree with you there. To us linux guys, the move was unneccesary... but to the media and the newbie masses, it says "Slackware isn't 2 versions behind anymore." Now I'll agree that several major distro's haven't inflated their version numbers (Debian, Caldera(?) for instance) but that doesn't mean that lazy computer guys like me and the guys who created slackware should have to put up with crap. Consider the following quote from the slackware website:
Q: Why the jump from 4 to 7?
The following was posted to the Slackware.com Forum by Patrick Volkerding (Slackware Project Lead), at 21:43 10-10-1999.
I've stayed out of this for now, but I do think I should lend a little justification to the version number thing.
First off, I think I forgot to count some time ago. If I'd started on 6.0 and made every release a major version (I think that's how Linux releases are made these days, right?
I think it's clear that some other distributions inflated their version numbers for marketing purposes, and I've had to field (way too many times) the question "why isn't yours 6.x" or worse "when will you upgrade to Linux 6.0" which really drives home the effectiveness of this simple trick. With the move to glibc and nearly everyone else using 6.x now, it made sense to go to at least 6.0, just to make it clear to people who don't know anything about Linux that Slackware's libraries, compilers, and other stuff are not 3 major versions behind. I thought they'd all be using 7.0 by now, but no matter. We're at least "one better", right?
Sorry if I haven't been enough of a purist about this. I promise I won't inflate the version number again (unless everyone else does again
Seems to me it's a little bit of that linux elitist in some of us (including me) that caused it, mainly unwillingness to put up with dumb questions. I think this was a good solution to it.
--
linuxisgood:~$ man woman
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
The question is, why would I bother with their hacks when I can get it fresh off the vine at mozilla.org?
Do you have ESP?
I hope you're not suggesting Communicator 4.0, released BEFORE IE4.0, was a catch up to the then contemporary IE3.0...
If you are, I'd have to laugh my ass off.
Its all about the numbers now aint it!
No one gives a damn about anything else! anymore anway. Slackware went to 7.0 (its my distro. of choice but still the move was uncalled for).
Now with Mozilla going straight from 4.7 -> 6.0 and the new MSN being MSN 5.0 you just have to think about how important the damn numbers have become.
Does anyone know of the marketing research that says this number game is important ? I would like to know of the percentage of computer users that base software on its version. Hmm figures that its for winblows users!
Non-Deterministic Finite Automata
No way will it get out of beta in Y2k. There's a reason why it's take so long, and it is not going to disappear over night.
Negatively Yours,
sm
Interesting that they're now allowing ISPs and others to make customized versions, with their own title bars, throbber icons, and the like... this is one thing that Microsoft did that really got them in good with ISPs, and probably has a lot to do with why that piece of crap browser is gaining so much ground in the Windows arena.
List of why I think IE is a piece of my shit is available upon request.
25% Funny, 25% Insightful, 25% Informative, 25% Troll
Speaking of Netscape 3, I downloaded the old Netscape 3.0 from Netscape's FTP archives. And it works really well! I used to use it on a P5-60, and now I (sometimes) use it on a P-233 MMX. Runs really well, works smoothly, and their e-mail and news clients are still pretty good.
If you'd like to download it, here is the link to it. Sorry, Windoze only :o( But maybe WINE would work...
awkwardone
www.tealeaves.org "All you need is love." -
I really wonder what these are going to be like. Will it just be skins and hotlists? Things like "customized to work very well with CNN content" make it sound like companies could muck around with the code a bit and sell/distribute the derivative work with the Netscape name still on it.
This has the potential to be pretty cool. Joe Windows distrusts that long-hair hippie browser Mozilla 'cause it's written by hackers, but he knows Netscape and AOL are names to be trusted. He could probably be convinced to use "CERT Netscape: The most secure web browser available", or something like that. This could be a really good way to get secure privacy-protecting browsers into the hands of the Unwashed Masses.
Alik
Why do they bullshit us with a version 6 when everyone knows it's just a marketing stunt to sound as if it were more advanced than IE. What I've seen from Mozilla (even the "alpha") up to now has been pretty disapointing, and unless they really patch it up good to make things like CSS fully implemented, I don't think it's going to be amazing at all (although I truly hope it is... I'm just playing devil's advocate here).
http://www.logient.com
Actually I believe the web and its users would be better served if there was only one browser (or if both were exactly the same). Which one it is, I don't care, as long as it's good.
http://www.logient.com
The page looks fine to me. I'm using Netscape 4.5. Perhaps it doesn't look like it does in IE, but I wouldn't know, because IE won't recognise my DSL connection. I don't see anything wierd though.
I've come for the woman, and your head.
Unforunately it will consume as much memory as Netscape and Mozilla M13 has still some way to go until it works for me (it still crashes frequently)
Open Source is great but I am waiting for Opera on Linux because it is small, reliable and fast (at least the current Windows version I tried)
Ive used Netscape for windows, macs, and linux, and it sucks on all platforms. Its sort of ok on windows, but the way it loads stuff pales in comparison to ie. why dont we try hacking ie, and making our own "good" browser that actually works!
I doubt, therefore I might! So my sig sucks, so shoot me!
One of the main reasons we got the customization toolkit for Netscape at work was so I could remove AIM from the distribution, along with setting the automatic proxy string. Now they've integrated it into the browser. Sounds too much like "IE is part of the OS" to me. I don't need AIM, or other chat tools - I have enough distractions: phone, pager, email, quick questions, management, meetings, ... My opinion is that "buddies" buy you a beer after work.
Warning! The "Microsoft" tag has been deprecated.
Every change is not progress, but there is no progress without change.
(hint: assembly language doesn't use alphanumeric symbols).
I should say, machine language doesn't use alphanumeric symbols. Assembly language obviously does.
--
Exactly. Just making tables work right is an exercise in extreme frustration. I think people need to use IE5 for an extended period of time to realize just how good the layout rendering engine is. It's also amazingly fast (watch it dynamically resize tables in real time as you make the window larger and smaller. Netscape waits until your done, thinks for about 3-4 seconds, and then might or might not do it right).
--
Actually, I think I know why... try going into your IE settings, and turn off "use smooth scrolling". You need a fast processor and fast video card for that not to be obnoxious.
--
Where in the article does it say that the 6.0 browser is derived from Mozilla? I think this is a new version based on the 4.x sources, and not Mozilla. If I'm right, then they skipped 5.0 because that's the version number that Mozilla will have when it's stable and Netscape-branded.
...for them to make their sites workable for the lowest common denominator, they would. It is not, so they do not. Don't get righteous, this is just greed as usual. I'm not saying it's a good thing--I certainly wish they were more adaptive--but keep in mind that it takes a lot of extra effort to make sure that a site works for the blind, with Lynx, with Netscape, with IE, with Opera... not to mention all the different versions of those browsers that all do things differently.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
To me, this is the biggest headache of Open Source. It creates multiple adversarial distros for commercial motives. The core of Linux, for example, is relatively pure. But the distros that carry it that important last mile to the user are commercial adversaries.
Just try running a big system (e.g., Oracle) on different versions and distros of Linux. (What? You don't have the right version of glibc installed? Your Enlightenment environment has the "foo" bug?)
I would not wish a similar situation on Mozilla. This is one reason that I like XUL and Java. The skin of the browser can be different for commercial reasons, but the underlying stuff will be reliable enough to program for a universal audience.
Don't count Microsoft out yet, though. (Strange to say that since the numbers apparently have them in the lead!) There may be a Round 2 of the browser wars in the offing once Microsoft thaws out their Java technology post-litigation. They may be forced, kicking and screaming, to "innovate" once again.
Enough already. Until there are significant new HTML standards that browsers need to be upgraded for, these types of "upgrades" are just marketing hype. Who needs a CNN-branded browser? Or a WalMart browser. Unless, as the story said that it will work "better" on the CNN site. Uh oh, there goes the web, here come the tech support calls, "How come Sally get's the rotating CNN logo and I don't?" This ranks up there with the new Barbie with the navel.
I assume this will coinside with the release of
AOL v6 (Aren't they on 5 right now?)
I like this 'cause I'm running low on coasters. (Thanks AOL! You saved my table from nasty water stains!!)
--Nick
Have GNU . . . Will Travel
My version is higher than your version! (my dad can beat your dad, etc...)
I have the highest version number, so I win, right?
Ignore Alien Orders
I click on the menu bar (e.g. File) and the menu won't come up! All I can do is terminate that instance and start a new one. That's really annoying...
I put all my menus on one row, so there isn't enough space for the entire menu bar to appear. So IE displays a >> which pops up the hidden menu options when clicked upon. When the file menu gets stuck, click on >> and everything will be ok.
IE has its problems, but it's still way better than Netscape.
BTW all, M13 rocks, other than lack of SSL and a few keyboard focus issues it's set to go primetime in my experience with it (and I use Communcator *only* for SSL - mozilla all the rest of the time).
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
No, the big problems left in performance (not too many, mozilla is way faster than Netscape and beats IE 4.5 for complex pages) could bvery well be coming from poorly optimized code that makes the same layout engine calls over and over. So much of the UI is javascript, that bad javascript can make things feel slow. I would like to see a more threaded user interface, but I think it's fast already - more is just gravy. Of course, it's performance must be inconsitent across different machine, judging by the number of people complaining about speed problems I just don't see. My Powermac G3/233 just flys in mozilla, in both MacOS and Linux.
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
Seriously, though, I can do a clobber build on like 2 1/2-3 hours on my G3/233 with 96 megs, so it's not too impractical. The big build-daemons in tinderbox that keep the builds up to date for debelopers bu ild it in about half an hour :-)
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
And the source, so I could rally up help and get a PowerPC port instead of having to just beg. (As of M13, I have one! woohoo!)
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
Do a build with ./configure --enable-x11-shm --disable-test --enable-optimize --disable-debug to get a realease build.
When I did this for the PowerPC M13 build I got a binary that only took 300 megs to build (not 900) and ran *significantly* faster than any other browser I've ever used (except lynx, but...), espescially on table-heavy pages like slashdot. Overall, IE 4.5 (macos) has a UI that feels a little snappier, but the total rendering speed on mozilla blows it away. My only remaining performance complaint is that reflows are not done in a threaded manner, so the reflow of a huge page (say, slashdot with 500+ comments, or the 2.5 megs of raw text in the build logs from mozilla's tinderbox) can freeze the UI for too long. I suspect that this, on a smaller scale, is also the source of my feeling that IE was snappier (since everything is done through the layout engine).
The Matrix is going down for reboot now! Stopping reality: OK. The system is halted.
what happened to sequential version numbers? 4.7 is the latest netscape out right now, and they are saying the next one is gonna be 6? wierd.... oh well, i bet the browser's gonna kick some serious IE ass.
All except the exact number, we have known that Mozilla will be Netscape 6.0. I mean, why would Netscape spend so much effort on a remake of their browser that is destined to turn out better than their browser and then not make it be their browser?
But remember, people, Mozilla still has lots of work yet to be done. But the end product will be an absolutely awesome, open-source browser.
This post powered by Mozilla M13. This poster can't wait for crypto in Mozilla.
Kenneth
Sure that works (I've done it with many other MS programs), but it's not something an end user is supposed to do. And okay, so what, it works. What about changing the entire interface? Why was (is) NetMarket (name?) so cool? Well anyway, that was just one item that is often either overlooked or evanuated at the wrong level.
i had other complaints too. but so what.
Why not just call it Netscape Communicator 7.0 or 8.0 or 9.0 to give it an even bigger marketting leap on IE 5.5/6? This is almost as bad as slackware moving from 4.0 to 7.0 in 1 release
Err, did I miss something ? Why 6 ? Just to have an higher number version than MS IE 5.5 ?
I have read somewhere that they planned to name it Netscape 2001, which sounded quite cool. But 6 ? Strange
Stéphane
Instant Karma's gonna get you, Gonna knock you right on the head (John Lennon, 1970)
Blah Blah, Bloat, Bloat, AOL, IM, Communication suite, Bloat, Bloat, Blah, Blah, market shares, Blah, Bloat, AOL, Blah, Blah (repeat and fade).
I thought that the big leap with Mozilla was something about standards respects, stability, compact code, etc.
Not a word about Mozilla's merits in terms of good programming, just about a lot of stuff we don't really need.
I know there will be a Netscape 6 (!) AND a Mozilla whatever-they-call-the-final-release, but Netscape 6 will inherit these merits from Mozilla, right ? I think there should be a little paragraph to mention it in this article.
Stéphane
Instant Karma's gonna get you, Gonna knock you right on the head (John Lennon, 1970)
That Navigator 6 is going to be a hit needs to get his head out of the clouds. No, I'm not saying that M13 is bad...far from it. In my opinion, it's about as equivalent as Nav 4.7 as far as speed and how often it crashes (which is quite good, considering that 4.7 is a final release and M13's still in the making). Anyway, the problem here is AOL. AOL's version of Navigator is going to be some cheap piece of junk. They'll send it through beta testing, release it 6 months too early, and load it so full of crap (aka plugins) that it won't be worth anything. I'm sorry, but most of us don't use AIM, and the last thing I want is to be attacked every five minutes by some spinning AOL logo which says "Hey, come visit AOL!" What I'll be waiting for is when someone like RedHat or Corel will take Mozilla and develop it into their own Linux Web browser...something that Linux users would want to see. You just know that AOL's going to try and push everything they can through Navigator to users (just look at Netscape's web site)!
In all my experience with IE, especially with 4 & 5, it has been solid.
It's quick, hardly *ever* goes down, and if it does, just kill the process.
Netscape, in my book, took a crap with their first release of Communicator 4.0. They tried to add too much functionality in a catch up game with MS.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This signature contains text from the worlds funniest signature.
I absolutely HATE netscape! Half the time on my computer i'm using windoze and when I do, i see myself using IE just like many other people. The little problems keep me from using netscape, and example is whenever I click on a link and go back to the page, i wasn't where I was before. In IE i am EXACTLY where I was before. It's a little thing, but it keeps me from using netscape. For example, when i'm reading /. (which is a huge page) and I click on the slashdot logo to go to the main page and i want to go back to the page I was in before, it goes to near the top of the page, which is a HUGE nuisance. It's things like this that keep me from using netscape.. the little stuff.
I do not see why they would want to name the Mozilla project as the next Netscape Communicator. Netscape, and more specifically AOL, has offended users deeply with their releases over the last year due to instabilities and buggyness. The words "Netscape", "Navigator", and "Communicator" are almost swear words now.
The spit will always, forever, be aimed at AOL and the fools who sold out to them.
Perhaps the logic behind this rename might be wanting to be take away the credit that the open source work gave to the Mozilla project. AOL wants to take that for themselves and the Netscape name. Quite honestly, I do not care about that and do not mind. If Mozilla comes out and becomes my next browser than I will be happy enough, and I will know the truth. But if Mozilla does not cut it, I will be looking though MSIE on the web and old versions of Netscape on the GNU/LINUX system.
The fact that AIM is integrated rather pisses me off in its own. However I am sure that someone will release a version with this cut out in no time at all.
Like many people, I will probably end up compiling my own personal version of Mozilla. Assisting companies and individuals with modifying the program to their own needs could be an incredible rocket for Mozilla. Think of all of the corporate entities that would take Mozilla and modify it for their corporate use. It will not just be ISPs doing it. What about Intranet's that would only work with that specially compiled browser? That is neat.
I guess they are skipping netscape 5. Probably just to keep the version number higher than ie. Bloody stupid, if you ask me.
If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
Over in a MozillaZine article Chris Nelson says he talked to a Netscape engineer earlier and the name isn't final. Looks like News.com jumpted the gun again...
Hopefully this browser will have some support for Drymatic HTML. AOL is totaly slacking on making their browser compatible with some forms of HTML... Including DHTML.
(C) notice at end
[Guitar intro]
All the net's energy calling me
Back where it comes from.
It's such a crude attitude,
[It's] Back where it belongs.
All the coding kids growing up on a 'NIX know
Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks.
Kevin M'Cluskey and Stevey Elmer know
Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks!
Billy knows, but he don't care
He's got his worries too.
RMS and Linus Torvalds, and the women too.
All the coding geeks with their clickin' keys know
Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks.
Browsin' in 'Doze with their countless woes go
Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks!
I've got some pages from twenty-oh-two
I view 'em just like my children do
I am a coder and they'll be too.
Oh Lizard Rocks
Yeah Lizard Rocks.
Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks, Lizard Rocks!
MOZILLA
Ozilla, ozilla, ozilla...
(C) 2000 Asheesh Laroia
Released to the public under the GNU General Public License
Based on "Cleveland Rocks" by The Presidents of the United States of America
Featured on _Lump_ (Sony Music Special Products: Sony Music Entertainment
Inc., 1999)
(to find out who the names are, go to www.mozilla.org/owners.html,
www.linux.org, and www.gnu.org)
___________________________________
|/usr/games/fortune
Hey, go wild with the style sheets. As long as you adhere to the HTML standards, it's up to the browsers to interpret them correctly. In fact, it's worth putting a disclaimer on your page to that effect: "This page rigidly adheres to all official HTML standards. If you are not seeing it properly, please complain to your browser vendor, and demand that they fix their software."
Come to think of it, everyone writing web pages could start doing that. I'm sick of web browsers that support their own silly extensions but don't adhere to the standards.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I don't mind AOL jumping up the version number at all. Yes, its completely marketting bullshit, but bullshit works sometimes. Frankly I'm behind anything that will get Joe Computeruser to upgrade his browser so that I can stop dumbing-down my HTML and Javascript. I long for the day I can use stylesheets with impunity! Heck, they should version it up to 8 or 9. Your average user sees the news and thinks "Man, I'm in 4.7, is this from the 80's or sumpthin'."
There's a spider on your shoulder.
At the first look it seems that Netscape released some code a while ago, and after a couple of years they are reclaiming it (only that they are getting an improved version). Even if it is not clearly said, I don't think they will actually pay very much for the work they didn't do.
What I also think as weird is the following statement : "CNN, for example, can create a CNN starter icon and a browser that is customized to work very well with CNN content," Blodget said in an interview
Could this mean that I will have to launch a different browser every time I want to acces a certain site (e.g CNN-scape, WB-scape etc ) ? I know it seems not very likely, but look ar what M$ has done with the HTML extensions.
Adding that during the summer will be launched the AOL TV service, looks like we're going to face another behemot of multimedia. And I'm not very sure that I like being caught between AOL and M$.
Thanks to you and others who have pointed this out, I've got it now and will be trying it shortly (though I use Mozilla now, not Netscape, so I wonder if I will still be able to get it to work)
What I'd really like to see is for Mozilla to support this right off the bat...make it an application type just like MP3s or AVIs, where you can simply go into Preferences and choose your program.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Well, they're playing the version numbers game, which will look good for everyone who doesn't know any better. (insert same reasons given by Slackware here...)
:) Since AOL controls ICQ as well, it would be interesting to see one of the "universal IM" clients integrated instead. Also, why not integrate WinAmp?
As for AIM being integrated, that is not at all surprising; it was already pretty much forcibly bundled with the previous version of Netscape (under Windows, anyway; even if you told it "No, I don't want anything to do with AIM, go away", it would prompt you AGAIN every so often, and the option would always be there in the menu system. Now that I'm not using Windows, I don't have to think about that
To now contradict myself, anothing thing I'd really like to see is some modularity. I will NEVER user the mail client (mutt), news reader (don't), or HTML editor (vim), and I'd like Netscape to give me the option, as w3m does, of launching mutt for mailto: tags.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
It says so on their page. There's a good reason, of course, and that's the RSA patent...right now SSL technology is proprietary in the US, and so can't really be included with something like Mozilla.
:)
I'm sure, however, that Netscape 5 or 6 or 2001 or whatever it is will still have SSL in it, but don't expect SSL in Mozilla until after September.
As for me, I've been using Mozilla for everything under Linux except SSL stuff, and I'm much happier with it than Netscape. I only want 3 things:
1. Let me use button 2 as "open in new window"...that's what makes Netscape better under Linux than under Windows, 3 buttons.
2. Let me do UNIX pasting! I can paste something _to_ mozilla with "highlight, button 2", but not _from_ mozilla. I REFUSE to submit to the Windows retardation of "copy and paste". Don't be StarOffice!
3. Let me define my own text shortcuts (the first thing I would do is to set hjkl to be motion keys
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
At our last LUG meeting this dude presentation crap out on him because he had decided to do it trough bugzilla. Our mailling list is also filled with with people asking why is bugzilla frezing their pc. Im not impressed with this opensource product( specially when ppl label it as a one of the killer app. of Linux).Im a processes lover not a PID killa.
Until now, Netscape has relied partly on its open-source development organization, Mozilla.org, to speed development of its Communicator browser, with volunteers and paid developers refining the product. But despite Mozilla's efforts, AOL has acknowledged that it has been late in updating its browser technology.
Skipping from the version 4 to version 6 makes some sense to me, because the Mozilla.org version would be version 5 if we follow normal open source procedure, right? Perhaps the odd numbers are the "pre-release" versions, and the even numbered are the officially released ones.
Besides, it's just a company doing to Micro$oft what MS did to Corel with Word 6.0, right? Didn't it go from Word 2 to 6???
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
I tend to agree with the above post. With the new *TOTALLY* standards compliant browser that not only supports the CSS1 spec (which IE5 doesn't fully support due to "backward compatibility issues") but the CSS2 spec among other kewl 'net standards. It's seems to be more logical to number it 6.0 if it supports the next generation of standards that was supported by IE 5.0...
Just how hard can it be to design a fast, lightweight browser that renders properly?
I'm a wee bit frustrated at all these browsers taking either the high road (Every feature under the sun) or the low road (Everything that doesn't take some effort to handle.), but never the middle.
I tried mozilla. I kept trying it in the hopes it might actually be useful, but it only got worse with time. (Stability first, people, because if you ignore that even the speed wears down, as it did.)
If I weren't busy on.. oh.. three projects at once I could see working on a browser. Hell, I've already figured out how to do the damnedable thing. (If I seem a little arrogant here, it's more out of annoyance than anything else.)
Heck, I'm bored, let's see if I can drop it off the top of my mind.. Layers would be the hardest part.
First off, there's the parsing. In C++, I'd do this by breaking up each individual tag into it's own object, with 'text' as the one, stable object data and the object itself containing any other information. From this point out all handling of layout becomes a simple chore.
Size manipulation on the fly would require one function with not only params for size, but one that chooses whether or not to 'guess' the size if it doesn't have it yet. If it gets the actual size down the road (From a separate networking thread), it can go punt everything at it and below until nothing requires special width rerendering, at which point the render window would just 'push' that section down if it has already been rendered.
Of course, the real trouble with that is font handling as you have to make sure it keeps to a specified width, but just cache the width of each letter.
This pretty much solves any problems. Any things that would actually change the width of the cell or whatever owning it would fall back up the object tree until we hit the frame.
This also makes cleaning up VERY simple and very clean (Just delete the root object, it'll delete everything under it which will.. and so forth.). Telling anything in specific to update will cause a reparsing of that section.
Now comes the other details: css (Cache the identifications and stuff and then promptly go whack the proper items with 'this size forced'), javascript/java (Ugh, not my department, and I don't like them anyway), networking/protocol (I don't see what's so difficult aobut this..), and options.
Now despite the rant, I really don't have time to devote to something like this, but I just look at the designs of web browsers that either don't render or do render with ten tons of feature bloat and it aggravates me.
However, if I'm wrong on any of this, feel free to give me a Boot to the Head[tm].
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."
The article's only been up a few minutes and already news.cnet.com doesn't seem to be responding (Cnet itself seems to be working fine). Slashdotted maybe? You can definitely tell there's interest in Mozilla here.
icqqm [ICQ:11952102]
I personally don't believe in inflating version numbers, but I do realize the importance of image, and just looking at it, Netscape 6 looks and sounds better than Netscape 5 simply because it's a higher number. Besides, it's not like there's any law about how version numbers go, it's up to the programmer to use his judgement.
icqqm [ICQ:11952102]
With all the talk of Netscape and it's instability, I went on the FTP server to check for an older version; some people swear the 4.51 release does all the others justice. Anywya, under the usual chain of directories, I found a 4.72 directory -- sadly, it is unaccessible via the general public. Can only wonder what this is.........a soon to be released update??
It's better than "Street Fighter" versioning. We could be still stuck on version 4; be thankful we're not.
Think of it: Super Netscape 4 Turbo
.sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
If you use the gratis-but-closed-source PSM daemon, Mozilla will have SSL.
What a lot of people here don't seem to understand is that Netscape 6 will feature the all new Gecko engine. This isn't your old netscape browser with a few new looks and some added proprietary tags. This is years worth of time put into creating a standards compliant, customizable browser, html editor, email client and more. Best of all is that it's open source! As for AOL claiming it will be released this spring...I'll believe it when I see it. The alpha version is still *very* buggy. AOL needs to be better than M$ in this matter by giving the developers the time they need to resolve as many bugs and other issues as possible. We need to keep in mind that there are still several Mile stones to go. Only two thirds of the mile stones for this browser have been completed. I expect to see most of the browsers severe bugs to be resolved by M15 which is only about a month 'n a half away. If you want this all new browser to be a success you can sign up to get a bugzilla account so that you may start reporting bugs. The mozilla news groups provide some excellent information and can be a good way to voice your opinions and frustrations. Mozilla is an open source browser being developed for many operating systems including windows, mac os, beos and several *nix variants. http://www.mozilla.com/ news://news.mozilla.org/
This is the sanest thing I've read today.
Netscape 6.0 will give AOL users the speed, reliability and ease of integration that discriminating AOLers demand.
module IRONY has caused an invalid page fault. AOL will now be your defualt form of government.one better than mcleodeight
It has taken AOL this long to put out 6.0? What happened to 5.0? Every software company AOL buys out turns to shit. Look at winamp, v2.50e has been out since October, when Winamp was Nullsoft only you had releases a month-two months or less. Netscape is doomed as long as it is in the hands of AOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What do you mean, inflated version number?
Netscape Open Sourced version 5, but never released it.
Mozilla is build partly on version 5, but has lots of new code. Netscape 6 is based upon the results of the Mozilla project. Sounds logical to me.
Martijn Pieters, Software Engineer
Digital Creations, Creators of Zope
"The truth shall make ye fret" -- The Truth, Terry Pratchett
The website you included (http://wallpaper.twysted.net) works just fine on my IE 5.0 AND Netscape 4.7.
Honestly, MS is not the only one that uses this technique. It's simple business marketing ploy. Didn't anyone notice that Caldera went from version 1.3 to 2.2 (How convenient that it was right about the time the 2.2 kernel came out and was in the press...). Or Mandrake one uping RedHat? Or Slackware going from 4.0 to 7.0? Again, one upping RedHat? I Personally have always found Product versioning unreliable and stupid. What constitutes 3.0 over 2.1? or 2.1 over 2.01? It's all up to the company. I'd like it if everyone just did a 02122000 (Date format for their products.
Because IE is a security disaster. "May i store your passwords somewhere and let anyone use your password to get in to any site just because they have acces to your harddrive?" And any ordinary user selects yes, thatd be a nice comfort to have.
Also, IE is a shell. Most people miss this... A shell with bugs is no good thing to browse the web with... a bit like telling bash to do anything http://www.meanbadsite.com tells it to.
No thanks... I'll wait for netscape 6 then. We're talking about netscape 6 here if you didnt notice, yes... so why compare ns 4 to ie 5? Last news i saw was that the new version of the rendering engine was faster than IE 5.
Last thing to say, as long as we have two (or more) browsers to choose from, we can retain the hope that the development will keep going in the right direction.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
First there was communicator...4.x
Then there was the opening of that source which would be the next version, but they scrapped it. 5.x OpenSourcing a project is a major change.
Now we have Mozilla code. 6.x
Seems to warrant a major change in version number.
Although MozillaZine.Org is reporting:
"However, from talking to some folks at Netscape, I have found out that they have not yet settled on a name, so this news is premature (as, apparently, was our mention of the name Netscape 2001). We will let you know when we have a concrete answer. "
Okay, I've seen a lot of complaints that Netscape is a bugfest, that IE is a better-quality browser, that Netscape is too slow to properly render a nude image of Natalie Portman pouring grits down her pants (pause so the humor-impaired can fire up the flamethrowers).
Those of you who have gone to great lengths to point that out have forgotten something: The only funky thing about NPL is that Netscape can use the code however it wants. But if you don't like it, you're free to fork. It's part of being open-source.
Another thing that's being forgotten is that Mozilla != Netscape, at least not 100%. It's a rather different product that happens to spring from the same original source base, and given its essential open-sourceness should be much more stable by the 6.1 release (if not earlier) than any previous version. Don't judge Mozilla based on its predecessors, then; the rules have changed.
/Brian