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Importing PSX2 Illegal?
An anonymous reader sent us to a gamepot article that tells us that importing a PSX2 (currently available only in Japan) is actually illegal. The demand on this box is amazing, but consider what it is capable of, its probably well deserved.
Woohoo! moderated down by a mac zelot! Dissing apple is as bad as using the 'N' word, I guess. Ok, so I used a little colorfull language, who cares. It shouldn't be modded down!
Because it delivers the games man!
Whatever. I'm confident that my little Pentium 200 w/MPEG2 decoder and 6x DVD-ROM drive performs as well, if not better than your 1x standalone DVD player.
The point is that you can buy a PS2 which gives you a DVD player, CD player, internet appliance and game system all in one. So why buy them seperately?
As far as performance goes, the EE can slightly outperform the highest end Pentium 3 in integer calculations and severely outperform the same processor at floating point intensive calculations. Remember all of those Mac users who were getting all worked up because the G4 could theoretically reach a peak performance of 1 GFlop (which an Athlon/Pentium 3 can match)? Thats nothing, the EE will easily push over 6GFlops. The highest end PC 3D accelerator (GeForce256 DDR) maxes out at 7.5M polys/sec, the PS2 is in the range of 60-80M polys/sec. In respects to gaming and 3D rendering, the PS2 is orders of magnitude faster than anything in the PC world.
there has been some interesting speculation as to why sony has "allowed" this situation to develop when they could easily have forseen and prevented it. my take on the situation is that sony is concerned about being able to meet the expected demand in japan let alone a sudden worldwide deluge of orders. toshiba has had some difficulties with chip yields from what i understand and the last thing sony wants is a precipitous divergence of supply and demand. if orders become significantly backlogged frustrated shoppers may be inclined to a) purchase a dreamcast now or b) think about waiting for the xbox or dolphin. just my two cents ;)
IIIIIIII| HEIL JON KATZ!
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IIIIIIIIII|The Fourth Reich is Upon Us!
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IIIIIIII| jonkatz@slashdot.org
I think the reason why they placed those regional codes in the consoles is to prevent something akin to dumping software as they (including Brazil and Russia) did with steel into our economy. If you don't get what I'm saying, note how the Dreamcast is doing well here but not there. If they didn't have the regional codes, you can sure bet that someone will import those unsold Dreamcasts here and screw up the 199.95 msrp.
Just this huge box of...ah, pokeymon (sp?) cards.
>The highest end PC 3D accelerator (GeForce256 DDR) maxes out at 7.5M polys/sec, the PS2 is in the range of 60-80M polys/sec. In >respects to gaming and 3D rendering, the PS2 is orders of magnitude faster than anything in the PC world.
What about resolutions....I saw some screenshots
from new titles for the PSX2 (Tekken Tag + new Ridge Racer)...but what the hell....it still lookes like 640x480....what about PC resolutions....1600x1200 32-bit....I don't think the PSX2 can beat that!....
BTW,...why doesn't Sony creates the possibility to
hook up an monitor in stead of a television...
just my opion
Bjorn
Oh yeah, I'm sure you guys are way more cultivated than the Japanese. You Europeans are so stuck on yourselves that its funny, especially since your countries are so weak.
Somehow I am having trouble seeing this stand. This law hasn't prohibited any other gaming device from being exported - the psx2 is no different.
Actually there will eventually be a remote control in the form of the 3COM Palm Pilot that is being developed as the PocketStation 2.
There has been mention of the PS2 sporting a VGA connector, but I cannot confirm the validity of that claim. With HDTV it doesn't really matter anyways.
I have read that Sony will only be making a $15 profit off of each PS2 unit sold.
Yeah, right on d00d! U5 31337 H@XoR'z' n33d 2 571CK 2G37H3R. Watch out for "the man", he's out to get U.
Cut the dramatic "evil corporation" paranoia, its getting old.
The EE in the PS2 is still faster than the PPC in the Dolphin. MHZ doesn't mean anything since the EE is a much more advanced design.
Comparing the MHZ is like saying that a 486 clocked to 400MHz (if possible) is faster than a Pentium 300MHz.
Sony decided to drop the X from the PS2. AFAIK, PSX is the executable format on PlayStation CD's.
Oh...I'm sorry. You have my sympathies.
Is this story legit? wtf
I work for the evil city, and they are the only ones you can get an APEX600 from. Circuit City bought EVREY one that apex made, and has the monopoly. Not bad units, composite video out, digital and optical audio out, play mp3, vcd, although they vibrate a bit much when they are running. Retail $179.99, cost for employees is around $135.
Cheapest isn't always better... OR haven't you heard? You get what you pay for.
I love it: XXX is cheapest... That justifies its price. What will you think of next?
You know... Apple 2's are cheaper than Pentium 733's... That alone makes them better. I'm getting some.
No... I'll just wait til PSX2 arrives and then compare it to the rest of the market.
As with everything, if there is a demand for it, there will always be people with ways to supply - for a price. PSX2s will get modchipped pretty quickly I'd imagine. As for the encryption, it'll be something to do with game copying and/or DVD regioning - but I suspect the real reason for the illegality is simply because Sony don't want to release it overseas yet. Whatever the reason is, let's face it - if they released it everywhere at once, there's no way in hell they could produce them fast enough to keep buyers happy.
I think the US version won't have any export issues. Sony could be trying to a) keep selling PSX 1 in the US, or B) try to stop people from selling import games. I have no idea why they'd do b, but then again, I never figured out the whole country code thing for the PSX1.
It seems I remember a Slashdot story having something to do with the PSX2 being considered a "supercomputer" on these shores, and thus SOA (Sony of Amer.) was unable to export the PSX2 to China, Syria, and the like.. Any word on the Japanese position on this angle?
There's more...
e m&item=272467549
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt
Of course it is illegal to import this "super computer" into the US, in fact into many countries, the people who made the newest Star Wars movie want to get there hands on it because it has more processing power than what it took to make the movie, Also it is illegal to export the G4 or at least it used to be, don't know the current statis
Check out www.ps2web.com. They have an update to Sony decision regarding PS2 imports. It looks like it will only be prohibited from import into countries that are considered hostile (ie. North Korea, Iraq, etc..). This means that you could either have a friend in Japan mail you one or you can go there, buy one and bring it back yourself.
The key must be stored on the disk (or in the machine) in order for you to play the game. The NSA has some of the best cryptographers in the world, they can find the keys themselves if they need to.
And a lack of generalization is called humanism, being the main possible threat against our civilization.
this could also be related to the fact that any electronic device imported into the u.s. has to be fcc certified. this isn't mentioned in the article, but that probably has an impact as well. i dunno. just a though.
From what I've heard, this thing will be delayed until q3/2001. I hope it's not true, but knowing Nintendo it probably is.
Yes but can your DVD player outperform all PC's on the market like the PSX2 does?
I know I should not feed the trolls, but could not resist. A lack of generalizations != humanism. !generalizations = nominalism. But a lack of humanism = misanthropy, and THIS is the biggest threat to our society. Unless you buy the xtian propaganda that equates misanthropy with godlove and humanity with sin. Go home xtian. or post something ontopic.
The reason it is illegal is because they are affraid that it will cause americans to not want the american version of the psx2... Thorne
Ok, what you said made NO sense. What is the difference if you import from Japan to America or if Japan exports it to America? Either way its coming from Japan to America, making it illegal.
I am from Europe ... now stop whinging ... and of course we Europeans are a much to cultivated bunch of people to be interested in such silly things like cough game stations cough.
Should this not be BE QUIET , EUROTRASH ?
Ah, Americans ... they keep reminding me ... that lovely time in kindergarten ...
Having to admit sorry, we cannot deliver, do not know. It just would not look as, well, good as sorry, we are not allowed for the time being.
Just an impression.
somewhere in my buliding there are 60 psx2's, being used for game development. i am hunting for them constantly...
Could the import ban be due to competitive advantage in Trade rather than encryption isues? During the eighties the same sort of thing caused a rucus in the US. Japan controlled the their imports and exports so that they would maximize the profits for their industries and compete effectively with international competition. Could it be that MITI(the name of the japanese trade agency) is trying to keep sony from killing off competitors profits(sega, nintendo etc) or helping them to cary over some more profits by selling of their remaining Playstation I inventory.
Then what about creating a european version of slashdot.org, so we could get a not so american-centric view of what we find interesting i europe?
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Apple just hyped the fact that the G4's fell under obsolite 20 year old guidelines for what was a supercomputer. The laws were actualy updated a few months before the computers came to market, IIRC. So, what you saw on just more Apple BS.
BTW, PSX2's are way, way more powerfull then a G4 mac.
[ c h a d   o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
This is more than ridiculous. This is absurd...
...That'll put up with games that are in Japanese. I really don't think that the region lockout is so valuable from Japan to US as many media items in Japan retail for more than the US versions.
I thought one of the WTO goal was to ensure that there should be free market for whatever product!
how does it come that a company has a right to decide what is legal/illegal to import?
Perhaps we're all supposed to be 'quiet Eurotrash'?
I'm certainly quiet, and am often mistaken for being British... hmmm.
They said it was illegal to export - that doesn't mean that local law overseas prohibits owning it!
Slashdot happily posted my UK story on DVD regional coding and posts lots of stories from the BBC. It is weighted in favor of American stories, but that is only natural considering its origins and the fact that a substantial proportion of its readers and submitters are American.
Maybe however there should be a 'Yurop' section for articles of special interest to readers on the other side of the pond. The laws of the EU and our national governments have far more impact and interest than US Congress and State legislation.
It is often painfully true that some Americans don't even know where Europe is, let alone talk about it. OTOH, I doubt I could locate a lot of US cities, so maybe we're even on that score.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
My PS2 should be arriving at my "home" within 34 hours (morning of March 4th JST) and I will be leaving Germany tomorrow to go to Japan. I'd even love to skip the two week skiing in the US to get there sooner, but that's already paid for. (;_;)
Nevertheless, after my home-leave is over, I will definetly bring the PS2 back to Germany. If the DVD playback quality is really as good as my Pioneer box, I'll get rid of the Pioneer, as Japan and Europe have the same region code and I'll be watching stuff from "home" mostly anyway.
Yes, it is illigal to export the PS2 from Japan. But the same applied to my PC, which included a SSL-enabled browser (and GPG and SSLLeay and crypt() and....), when I moved to Germany last summer. Officially, I could take it with me for a temporary export up to 6 month and personal use only. But as there never has been any record kept on when and what I took out, this export-restiction can't really be enforced. I am more worried if the German customs will let me take it in.
BTW, Sony's own direct-selling site revealed name and adress of their customers just by changing the cusomer-id in the URL. Now fixed but another scandal for Sony, after their site was toooootaly overwhelmed when they started to take reservations.
has anyone considered that sony might have encrypted the memory sticks to prevent the bleem's of the world from copying the functionality of the PSX2? or is this just a happy(?!?) side effect?
When crypto is outlawed, only outlaws will have crypto. Where's Charlton Heston when you need him?
-B
Don't the police have to have reason to believe you have the key as well? (Obviously it has to be a good reason, like you being black, or Irish, or them just not liking your face...) I think that would probably be unlikely with PS2 and DVD.
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
If you want a DVD player that works everywhere, check out www.codefreedvd.com
The article just says it's illegal to transport the psx2. But they don't say who's laws it would be a violation of. Although US encryption laws are pretty fucked up, they haven't tried to stop Americans from using, and importing, whatever encryption they want. The same with supercomputers (although, the article doesn't say that that's what this is about).
If this actually is the case, and not just someone's third hand misinterpretation of the "No exporting supercomputer" law like I think it is, it could really only be a violation of Japanese law. American people aren't beholden to Japanese laws, so we would be free to import it. Of course, the person you would be buying it from would be breaking the law... but you would be in the clear.
If you ask me, this is ether a misinterpretation of the US's supercomputer export laws (witch say nothing about importing), or a cheap scam to raise the price of Japanese PSX2's in the US initially.
[ c h a d   o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
hat way they can change the setup of the console and charge what they like in the US and Europe, safe in the knowledge that this time it's illegal for someone to import one from Japan where it'll likely be cheaper
:/
yeah, if I remember correctly the MSRP for the Japanese PSX2 is about $100 to $150 less than the hefty $370 opening price tag they'll be opening for here
----
Dave
Purity Of Essence
- Dave
Don't forget Connectix. Sony also sued them for making the Virtual Game Station, another PlayStation emulator. They got screwed over far worse than Bleem did. They were prohibited from selling their product for something like 6 months. The court injunction given to Sony against Connectix was recently overturned.
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Also Wouldn't make exporting Illegal wouldn't North American Companies have some trouble developing for it?
Official PSX Site
Fear. Governments by and large get their powers by exploiting the fears of the masses. Crypto is a perfect example: "Why, if strong crypto gets out, then those TERRRRISTS and COMMIES and CHILD PO-NOGRAFAS and DROOG DEALERS will be able to getcha, sho nuff!" By its very nature, law enforcement seeks ever greater powers. Similarly, whenever situations arise that threaten its power, it fights back vigorously.
More seriously, nation-states believe that the more intelligence information they have the better prepared they will be in the event of some military or terrorist threat. By being able to tap into any given communication channel, their abilities to prevent violent actions against the citizenry is arguably increased. Ergo we have law enforcement pushing legislatures (or parliaments) to restrict technologies that would interfere with their abilities to protect the population from external (or internal) threats.
That's the LEA line, anyway. But since they are so secretive they haven't made a very good case to support their cause. No evidence has been presented showing that crypto has come into play in a single solitary case, nor that even if it did that convential detective methods would fail thereby.
Plus, if you're LAPD you just shoot the fucker anyway, crypto or no.
Honestly I wouldn't be too surprised if Japan was pressured by someone here state-side re: the PSX2. Freeh, et al are absolutely terrified that they won't be able to listen in on our conversations, and they have the pull to be able to coerce foreign powers to make "minor adjustments" for the overall "security situation."
- rev
You're smoking crack. Why not go pick up a DVD/MP3 player for half the cost of a PS2? Even cheaper still...throw a DVD-Rom on your PC and have a slightly less expensive, smaller viewing area?
Just an aside here.. the article doesn't say that it's illegal to import the PS2. It says that it's against Japanese law to bring one outside Japan. I presume that it's fine and dandy with the US or most other governments to bring one in...
PlayStation 2 is not yet available here in Japan. Two more days to go. (And there is already people waiting outside stores...)
(8-DCS)
>Why would they need bullet proof encryption on a console anyway?
I would assume that its to prevent copying of software or making the memory chips only available from Sony and not some third-party which reverse-engineered it.
I know that playstation and cartriges can be copied. Maybe this is to prevent this from happening.
As to preventing exporting of the PS2, I would guess (again) that its to enforce the regional marketing/sales division. (One part of the world gets this, while another part of the world gets this other thing, just like region-codes in DVDs)
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Nintendo delayed the Dolphin until Q3 2000 in order to make some kick-ass first party games, and let 3rd parties get some games going. AND they delayed the GameBoy Advanced because the GameBoy Color is selling so well.
The PSX2 promises to be the cheapest DVD player on the market, that alone is worth the price.
Really? I just picked up a DVD player for $160+tax that also plays MP3s recorded to CD-R, and has a menu that allows you to defeat the region coding & Macrovision.
PSX2 will be cheaper? Does it come with a remote?
Yes but can your DVD player outperform all PC's on the market like the PSX2 does?
Yes, it does - it plays DVDs on my home television better than any PC on the market. Which is what I bought it for.
If I'd wanted to run Linux, connect to the internet, do cellular automata experiments, write code, or play "Street-Fighting Kung-Fu Butt Monkeys" on it, the Aphex 600 is probably not the info-appliance I would have picked first.
It might help if you defined "outperform". For all I know that means the PSX2 gets hotter faster than any PC on the market.
I'm just sick of exagerations, even if it's only $20.00.
/. no less) I went to the CC website, paid for it online to be picked up on the way home from work that day. When I got there the sales droid informed me it was on sale. Life is good.
Apex 600, Circuit city, 18-Feb-2000, on sale.
After reading about it (on
Sony is treating its customers as idiots. Sure, they might be able to sue an european shop for selling non CE approved electronic appliance, but they can't do anything against individuals at all. Once the product is in the hand of the end user there's nothing they can do. What, 2 years in jail because you played on you PSX 2 ? They are smoking something bad, or more likely trying to intimidate the average user. Hey, Sony us part of the MPA and RIAA, they also sued Bleem... they are your average big bad bullying corporation.
Anybody have any idea? I think it hasn't been officially announced yet, but is there a consensus on when it's likely to be?
I'm getting it!! The PSX2 promises to be the cheapest DVD player on the market, that alone is worth the price. And it has incredible graphics & games? What more could you ask for in a console?
--Remove chicken to e-mail
Perhaps this will demonstrate to the casual observer that putting limits on exporting crypto can have a negative effect on the US. Telling someone that it hampers our efforts to broaden markets isn't quite the same thing as "see these cool games? You can't play 'em!"
Sony is probably losing money on the Playstation 2. Where they get their money is from the games. If they sell more playstations, but the same number of games because a person in america bought an import then replaced it with the US version it affects their profits.
Non gratis rodentus anus
Wouldn't this be considered an action against some of the agendas of the WTO? I was under the impression that the WTO considered this type of action an unfair trade policy.
Perhaps someone can clarify this for me...
-vel
I can see why Sony wouldn't want to walk all over US/Euro publishers who translate a game and release it. However, many -- if not most -- Japanese games NEVER get released outside of Nippon.
For example: a survey of the Shmups! Xenocide Files/Review Archive shows that the percentage of 2D shooters on 32-bit consoles that made it out of Japan is small. There are some exceptions (R-Type Delta, Thunderforce V Perfect System), but they are the exceptions. And it's not like there's a lot to translate...
If all we had to do was wait 3 months for a publisher to translate a game, that would be one thing. But when no publisher is willing or interested in releasing a game unless it is 3D polygonal eye-candy, the market becomes derivative, and the players suffer.
Obviously the PSX2 isn't just a game console. It has at least DVD capability and I bet Sony also implemented the possibility to present other media via the PSX2. Now if Sony plans to sell their own content for viewing on the PSX2 then it'd just make sense that they make sure you can't get at it.
Also one should note that the restriction comes from the Japanese end and have thus nothing to do with the US crypto laws. I doubt that Sony will have problems getting the required permissions before long.
What remains to be seen is how long it will take for eg. distributed.net to crak the encryption once the PSX2 falls into their hands;).
Why the encryption? Who cares. I wanna know: why the export restriction?
Let's say I'm terrorist organization X. Tell me I can't get one single member or sympathizer of my crazy group into the US or Japan (or wherever else has these restrictions). He can then pick up a damned PSX2, stick it in his bag, and walk out.
I'm all for being tough on terrorists--like "waste them and don't think twice about it" tough--but is this export restriction doing any good, or just impeding commerce?
Steve
Um, just a small nitpick: Gameshark did not edit savegames. Well, the more recent ones edit icons on savegames. But that isn't how it cheats. It modifies locations in the console's memory, which generally isn't encrypted.
-- Your IP is showing
PS2 Card looks much the same as the old one just 8MB instead of 1
I agree that it seems a bit unlikely that export would be prohibited for the given reason. If for no other reason than lack of practical use.
Which begs the question, what happens when someone does export one?
Does SONY then proceed to pull the product, and release an incompatable respin? Do they live with the stigma of having been caught generating FUD, with hard (pun, what pun?) evidence. I wish I knew more about the root source. How influential is SONY in the Japanese gov't?
What eBay decides to close or let slide tends to be pretty arbitrary.
Something tells me that you wouldn't get away with that argument though.
> I can't see that as a good enough reason for Sony.
Well, that's why you don't work for Sony's corporate planning division. It's obviously a good enough reason for them, since they're waiting an extra 6 mos. before releasing it elsewhere.
Consider this - there is a huge market for the console, of course, and if Sony screws up their launch, they'll be hurting very badly for at least the next 5 years in terms of the video game market. By initially releasing to a limited market, they can work out any production problems, firmware bugs, mechanical failures, and compatibility problems before releasing to their bulk market overseas. And the Japanese market may be favorable to them in other ways, as well - they have a large market with small deployment costs (lots of customers over a relatively small geographical area), probably no troubles getting the units sold, and likely the feedback they do get will be from people who have all kinds of experience with different brands and models of game machines, DVD players, computers, and other personal electronics, giving them useful information on all areas of the new product. Once the initial release is done and they have a good idea what needs to change, then they'll release an updated unit in Japan and overseas, step up production, and probably have no problems getting even a fair number of the PSX2.0 owners to get a PSX2.1. Especially if there are problems with PSX2.0 (what are the chances...?) - and if they do wind up having to do some kind of recall (an extreme case), again, the cost will be much lower than if they had to coordinate it overseas.
People who have no business experience and wish the world served their interests a lot more than it does often don't understand this. (Both of the above apply to me, I want a PSX2 w/o region encoding, and have no business experience) But you have to look at it from their perspective. If they screw this up, it's gonna cost them. Big time. That's the kind of thing that'll cost them their market lead. Making foreign markets wait 6 months is a safe move, which could also cost them (IE if Nintendo sneaks in a release) but almost certainly not nearly as much as a rush-release would.
---GEC
Bow-ties are cool.
> Well my relative note to this discussion. I too cannot wait for both systems to be released so that we can once again crown Nintendo winner of the console wars. hehe ;)
:P'
...For the first time in 10 years, maybe.
NES was a winner, SNES as well (I suppose - had issues with censorship, among other things). N64 had technical superiority, but at the cost of game diversity and affordability. (Like a less-skewed Neo Geo). PSX won the 1995-1999 console war, because it's a great system with lots of games -- even if its hardware does suck (as evidenced by non-tag-team Street Fighter "vs" games, etc.)
Bow-ties are cool.
"The two announced peripherals are the new PS2 analog dual shock controller and the 8-MB Memory Card. However, the new PlayStation2 peripherals will not work with PlayStation." from the ps2 faq
you can use your old psx mem cards on the ps2. you can also use the new 8 MB ps2 mem cards on the ps2. they needed to keep the interface the same so that the old mem cards would work. one reason for the encryption is to keep sales of psx memory cards up, because an 8 MB mem card is equal to about 32 regular psx mem cards. and encryption defeats using a ps2 mem card in a psx.
they would like to keep the markets seperated so they can generate as much profit from mem cards as possible, because everyone needs one. one way to combat this is to require an authorization code to use the ps2 mem card. if the psx can't send this signal, it won't work in the psx, and therefore, psx owners still need the psx mem cards.
basically, it is just to keep the mem card markets seperate, and to generate a lot of profit they wouldn't have gotten if the ps2 mem cards would have worked in the psx.
'Mullethead. A hairstyle that's a way of life'
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
How could they possibly do that? Remember, we're talking export control, not import. They can go after a business or indivdual who tries to export the thingie from Japan, but only in a Japanse court! Once it's outside Japan the only chance they (i.e. Sony) would have is if there's a domestic law somehow restricting import and sales of a products unlawfully exported from the place of origin. I've never heard of such a law that would, for instance, restrict the trade in my country a banned book written by a dissedent in some country with an opressive regeime ...
Hey distributed.net, while we're waiting for OGR to get fixed, can we work on breaking the memory card encryption to show it's not really that strong? ;)
Not really. Nissan and Ford have very close ties , in fact Nissan, Mazda and Ford have been involved in Joint Ventures since the 60's. It would never be allowed for Mazda to be owned by a forign company. Mazda has agreed has allowed some of it's joint ventures outside of Japan to have the controlling shares owned by Ford. This is not unusual because they also have JV's with Matsushita. Ford has increased it's shares of Mazda to 33.4 percent (Which was a scandel in itself.) 66 percent of Mazda Japan is owned by Japanesse interests. Ford is a large partner of Mazda and has enough stock in the company to throw some weight around. But Mazda is not "owned" by form. In fact is you go to Mazda's japanesse web site they have a page that is dedicated to explaining why Ford does not own Mazda.
If this is, in fact, true; and I am not missing something, then I have a question. Why do governments pass these kind of idiotic rules/laws/whatever? This is right up the alley of the US government banning the export of strong encryption. The supposed premise is we don't want bad guys to get their hands on it, right? (after reading the article, it seems encryption may be what this about as well) All this prevents is LEGITIMATE business from exporting, because the "bad-guys" you don't want to get it couldn't give a shit that you outlawed it! WTF am I missing?
mas cerveza, por favor politically incorrect stu
Encryption. The major part of the encryption is probably for the DVD's. We all know that there are people that got through the encryption once. Whos to say that there isn't going to be someone else that will crack this encryption process. This stand on making it illegal to transport PSX2, in my opion will only make things worse.
Is the pain worth it, just to see defeat in the eyes of your enemy?
It is not illegal to import and psx but to export it from japan!!
How come this story gets to see the light of day when european stories never make it to the sight.
sparkes
blog and junk
2 reasons for crypto on a save game:
1. Storing your Pr0n, warez, and MP3 site passwords.
2. Making it more difficult (not impossible, of course) for 3rd party hardware hacks for the save games, such as GameShark.
the interesting thing about PS2 DVD is that the movie player is software-driven, or at least a good portion. to run a DVD movie on your PS2, you have to insert your memory card, and the memory card has to have a 600k+ executable to run the movie player. I have a feeling this memory card file will be easier for hackers to to crack in order to allow DVD movies, but that means if you import a PS2, and you wanna watch American DVD movies, you'll have to import a memory card from China or something to get those movies to run. Speaking of hacking... one thing I think has been largely ignored about the PS2's crackability is the difference in CD-loading. Except for the original Sega CD, all previous CD consoles have been laid out like a Discman; that is, you open the console's lid and place the CD until it firmly stays in the turner. Because of this, people could "trick" the console by making it think the lid was closed, and therefore switch CDs (very useful to play import games on Playstation, for example). But PS2 goes back to the old-school Sega CD design, in which you click the eject button, the little tray comes out, you put the DVD in, and the tray closes. I don't know how much of a hassle that will make for hackers who are used to lid-tricks, but I doubt it'll make things any easier.
Get special permission from the Japanese Ministry of Trade and Industry.
Not likely for the average consumer, I gather.
Besides, we can wait: upgrade our home theatres in the meantime. ;)
The article mentions that one of the reasons given was the encryption used on the PSX2. We all know how governments can be with encryption, don't we.
It seems to me that this is more of an attempt to prevent the encryption technology from falling into the hands of "Dangerous" countries such as Iraq, Iran, and such.
I doubt that they would prevent it from being shipped into the US (although don't quote me on that), you'd just have to get permission, and probably prove that you're sending it to the US.
It's kinda funny though. 5 year olds in Japan can have technology that certain countries aren't allowed to (or, more correctly, that we're trying to keep the technology away from).
"No, Sadam, you can't have my PSX2!"
Why would distributed.net care? They enter contests to win cash.
And no, American stuff won't work on a Japanese PS2. But rather quickly upon the release of the US system, expect to see a "mod chip" of some sort bypassing whatever lockout schemes Sony uses. Stephen Keller
Nope. The Japanese PSX2 will not be able to read US games nor Region 1 encoded DVDs. (Kinda sucks) However, I'm hoping a mod chip will become available that will allow both, as I'm going to Japan on March 22nd and am dying to get one. Anyone else have any info on this?
Also, anyone think I'll actually be able to get one out of the country?
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
The DVD Encryption is unlikely to be the problem - otherwise how did my Pioneer DVD player make it out of Japan to the UK?
Gamma Testing - Where testing is extended to the full user community (AKA Shipping the Program)
There is potentially another reason that you might not want to get a Japanese Play Station 2 and that is the region coding. I haven't actually managed to find anything about this but if it can play DVD Video then my understanding is that a player is "hardwired" to a single region (part of the licensing). That was definitely the case with mine (originally).
USA is region 1 and Japan is region 2 so most US DVD Videos would not play on the PS2. I'm sure someone will come up with a way of bypassing this but it will proabably require internal alterations to the console. You cannot just set the region to 0 either as most modern DVD videos use a method called branching to only run on a player set to the correct region.
I must admit though that this is not really a problem for me as I'm in the UK (also in region 2 - go figure).
As an aside DVD Video is not nearly as big in Japan as the US and PS2 may actually be the first DVD player a lot of Japanese have. This is partly due to the greater penetration of Laser Disk in Japan where it is actually the distribution medium of choise (even over VHS I believe). The manufacturers seem to be protecting their investment by keeping the DVD costs high.
You knew there was a reason they were getting "Phantom Menace" on Laser Disk in Japan.
Gamma Testing - Where testing is extended to the full user community (AKA Shipping the Program)
Here's a nice inflammatory note for all you PS2 fans...Yes i am biased for Nintendo always have been always will be... must have been the pokemon... hehe.
;)
Anyway the Dolphin will be coming out shortly after the PS2 but it will a whole hundred MHz faster... I know i know big woop... Its the games that make the systems... Point for Sony there...
Well my relative note to this discussion. I too cannot wait for both systems to be released so that we can once again crown Nintendo winner of the console wars. hehe
No WAY am I gonna pay 5 times the retail value! I think I have the patience to wait for it to be released in the US later on this year. I mean I waited this long. I just feel bad for those idiots who don't know that the Japanese PS2 won't play US DVDs or US games... *sigh*
If you want to get an import PSX2, Daily Radar has a good article on how to score one: here.
Also, an interesting fact was that Sony had to shut down their commerce web site because the site received 100,000 hits the first minute that PSX2 preorders went live.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
I expect (but then, what would I know?) that this is out of date crypto export controls coming in to play - nothing more, nothing less. Ofcourse Sony wants to have decent crypto in this thing - lots of people are saying how you'll be able to download lots of lovely Sony-sourced movies/songs/whatever to your box via a cable connection (or whatever), so why shouldn't they put decent crypto there?
While you Americans cry in to your Cheerios about how unfair it is you can't get your hands on these boxes for a few more months (how long do you think it'll take for the Japanese government to step aside to let Sony make billions for the Japanese economy off the back of the PS2?), i'll be having a good ol' chuckle to myself, thinking back to the days of poor ol' Zimmerman and the hassles he went through thanks to PGP and the US Governments futile attempts to stop the world getting it's hands on decent crypto.
...j
(Gee, I must be in a bad mood today).
My guess would be that the PSX2 uses Memory Sticks as memory cards. Memory Stick technology uses Magic Gate to control access to MP3s and the like, which would account for the article.
Does this mean that Magic Gate devices (such as Sony MP3 players and the like) are illegal to export from Japan without a licence, or is the PSX issue something to do with geographic zoning and international IP treaties or somesuch?
The postwar Japanese constitution enshrines privacy as a right to the point of ruling out restrictions on cryptography. Given the title of this law (International Foreign Exchange and Trade Law), I'd guess it's a WTO or WIPO thing, which possibly overrides the local laws of signatory nations.
Previous news reports have stated that the DVD playback software for PS2 resides *on the memory card* (it can also be reloaded onto the card from a utility disc that comes with the system). Therefore under the DVD Forum/DVD-CCA license ("protect the CSS code at all costs") they MUST encrypt the memory cards.
OTOH, it's apparently a proprietary encryption scheme, and we know how well those usually fare...
- that oughta keep the mystique going :) :)) - highly desirable, in demand, artifically limited supply - econ 101 formula for big ticket, thick margins, yeah!!
Nothing boosts demand (and consequently $$$) for something than having it prohibited
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Distributed.Net DOES NOT illegally break encryption. It participates in legal competitions...
I mean, it's prohibited under Japanese law. So suppose I find a way to acquire one and remove it from Japanese soil? I simply don't take any trips somewhere where the Japanese have jurisdiction.
It's not like the US is going to permit extradition of a US citizen to Japan for importing a video game in violation of Japanese export controls any more than they would allow extradition of a US citizen to Saudi Arabia for illegally importing Playboy into that country (or *gasp* simply putting nude pictures on the internet where Saudi citizens can download them).
The world is a pretty complex place. Just because you offend a particular government doesn't mean all that much if you are beyond that government's reach... consider how publications like the New American treat the governments of China, Russia, Cuba, et al.
This is my opinion and my opinion only. Incidentally, IANAL.
MOO;IANAL.
There used to be a picture linked here.
How hard would it be to get consent from the Department of Trade and Commerce?
Just curious...
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
son, I will not have you taking Gen. MacArthur's name in vain! :)
Pope
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
My question is how long will it be before the NSA wants keys to the encryption used by the PSX2? Will they be demanding that importing of the PSX2 be made illegal?
Not true!
Mazda is owned by Ford, Nissan by Renault. I can't think of other examples off the top of my head.
Japan was a protectionist country, though - and do you know what organisation did the most to stop it? the World Trade Organisation - also known as the WTO.
I can't see that as a good enough reason for Sony.
There's a good sized market for import consoles before their launch over here. Bumps up Sony's sales figures very nicely. But they don't always play the UK spec games so they get replaced when the proper ones come out.
But, this way, they only get the one sale...
I'm wondering whether this might actually be an unintended side-effect.
Greg
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
Apparently the US has been exporting its stupid export regulations.
--
E_NOSIG
The Playstation 2 is what is known as a category killer. Not just a console but a DVD player, firewire gives it the ability to connect to disk-drives, video cameras and of course the web.
Secure e-commerce from your TV. Welcome to a plan for World Domination. But at least this one comes in a sexy box
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
So, it's called a PlayStation [2], and abbreviated PSX or PSX2.
Where the heck does the X come from?
--
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
I wonder what type of action Sony will take against eBay? I'm guessing that there will be auctions as soon as they become available in Japan and if the price isn't too high, I'll even bid on them.
Its like the few weeks before Christmas. I remember people going out there buying Furbies and then selling (scalping) them on eBay.
The demand is there, or here...depending on how you look at it and the supply is in Japan.
I wonder though, would the "American" stuff work on a Japanese box once the PSX2 games arrived here?
-Vel
I don't know if the US talked Japan into regulating supercomputer exports, but they did talk them into crypto export regs, primarily in response to the (NTT or NEC?) development of an RSA chip.
"Can't Export Without A Permit" doesn't mean you can't export it - it just means you need to get a permit. If the motivation here really is restricting gray-market sales of Japanese versions of the product to the US, Sony probably can manipulate the permit process to prevent it.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
After years of the U.S. restricting crypto from export, the shoe may finally be on the other foot.
My instinct tells me that it is unlikely that the Japanese government would place export restrictions on cryptographic technology that would be approved for a game machine. Still, its kind of interesting to imagine all the righteous indignation felt on the part of U.S. consumers when we (the U.S.) have been doing it to the rest of the world for years. I kind of hope it is illegal. Maybe we deserve it.
Why would they need encryption and region codes on DVD's anyway? This just seems like a real blunder on the DVD-CCA's part. They knew the risks, they had to know DeCSS could/would happen. I don't get it.
Thanks 348...=)
I found the following article which provides a little bit of info on why the PSX2 seems to be considered *hot*.. Here is a link to a Sony press release talking a bit about that "Magic Gate", it's topical but has few technical details..
I'm wondering whether this might actually be an unintended side-effect.
It's kinda hard to tell from the article whether Sony had intended this or knew about it in advance, but I would imagine a company with Sony's experiance and resources would have been able to work this out in advance. So they must have had a good reason for this.
I'm guessing that it's to do with the fact that it's a DVD player as well as a games console. Each region will get a PSX2 specifically coded to accept only DVDs from their region.
Sorry, Everything on a data-carrier of any kind needs to be decrypted in one way or another. Remember that Braille is unreadable for most of us. In the end what matters is if the data can be read of the carrier in some way or another and can be made legible. Well with your dvd and the PS2 that is the case. You need one of those players. With normal encryption, like RSA, Blowfish etc. it is a key that you hold that you have to give. The thing is not the encryption. The thing is that somebody (the lawenforcer) has to be able to read it.
Use Adsense for Charity
But, this way, they only get the one sale...
I'm wondering whether this might actually be an unintended side-effect.
Yes, they only get one sale, but it's one sale of a machine that loses them money. Remember, the real money is in the software, and this is the whole reason for territorial lockout.
The premise is like this...Let's say JapanCo is making a cool fighting game and it sells like hotcakes in Japan. Because of this they're going to make it available State-side, but AmeriCo is going to publish it over here. What happens when everyone was able to easily buy the Japanese game when it came out instead of waiting for the American release? AmeriCo loses a lot of money, gets pissed off, and doesn't make as many games for PS2. This in turn makes Sony lose money (less games, less money). It's not about making people happy as much as it is not wanting to piss off publishers. This is why you need a mod chip to play Japanese games on the American PS1.
I suspect this whole "illegal import" deal is just another phase of that. Every territorial lockout has had a solution provided at some point. Making it illegal to even export the product from Japan is probably the best way they could have done what normally is done in the hardware to stop Westerners from playing Eastern PS2 games.
Well Sony don't really want anyone exporting their console from Japan before they're ready to launch it overseas. That way they can change the setup of the console and charge what they like in the US and Europe, safe in the knowledge that this time it's illegal for someone to import one from Japan where it'll likely be cheaper. Remember Sega's antics with the Megadrive/Genesis? It's similar except this time Sony have actually managed to get the law behind them.
I doubt this story has anything to do with crypto or the ilk. Japan is a very protectionist country. If a large company like sony (Who's profits have been on the decline because of the yen) asks to Japanese gov't keep the PSx2's inside the country so marketing doesn't get ruined then that's what is going to happen.
To date no japanese company has ever been purchased by a forign company.
When the first American company (Cargill, Inc. the largest private company in the world) attempted to trade on the nippon market they were boycotted. They had to enter into a partnership with a Japanese company before anyone would accept their trades.
This is nothing new to a country that has a long history of being over protective with their markets.
Why would they need bullet proof encryption on a console anyway? This just seems like a real blunder on Sony's part. They know the restrictions, they had to know this could/would happen. I don't get it.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
Someone has 6 brand new PSX2s forsale on eBay.
I am sure eBay will cancel the auction if this is really illegal.
-d9
I think encryption is not the true reason.
It's more a DVD-like case ; they just don't want europeans and americans to get japanese pxs2.
Check this articl e (in french) :
Basically, sony Europe will sue anyone importing psx2 in Europe (businesses & individuals).
As the PS2 contains encryption and I live in the UK, if the police asked me to see what was encrypted on my PS2 (assuming I had one) and I couldn't decrypt it, I'd be breaking the law. So doesn't that make possesion of a PS2 in the UK illegal ??
Which makes me think - if I owned a DVD but no DVD player I'd also be in possession of encrypted data I couldn't decrypt....