Slashdot Mirror
India Plans Moon Mission In 2005
ghoul writes: "I just came across this article in which the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) has announced plans for a moon mission. Considering that till now India has only launched geo-synchronous satellites, that's a big leap. But ISRO scientists claim by using a lightweight orbital vehicle they can use their existing PSLV (which launches 1-tonne missions into polar orbit) to send an orbiter to the moon.
The full article is available at India Today ." (No, not a manned mission, at least not yet.)
...it's a good thing the Natives of this land could put together one of them space rocket thingies. They've been worshipping the sky for ages, now it's time to get up all in that.
oh, wait, not for 5 years. Guess it's back to the bar....
--
+&x
There are many other reasons that India could be looking to send stuff to the moon other than just the same old scientific reasons that have been brought up in the article and in the various threads that I have seen.
First off, India is in need of some serious PR in their favour. While many people on their side in the Pakistan vs. India debacle, they need something to bolster the spirits of their people and make others think about them as more than just a country with a crapload of people and a few nuclear weapons. What better than a mission to the moon to proove themselves better than these other fledgling countries in the technological areas?
Also, as the country is in some serious tension over the nuclear arms issue, the fallover effect of technology in this area could be quite useful to them. After all, new rocket techology could allow them to create missles that could carry a nuclear warhead much farther than before, thus making other countries who were thinking about backing Pakistan much more wary in their support.
I'll admit that this is a very dark view of the reasons for going to the moon, but they are things that should be taken into consideration when you look at their motives. With motives like these, the Indian government will be much more willing to throw money at this project, whether it is something that they should be doing (as they could push that money into things that are needed much more than the new knowledge that this mission would probably bring -- but thats just the humanitarian hippy in me coming out).
It's Linux, damnit! Pay no attention to renaming attempts by self-aggrandizing blowhards.
First of all, you mean the US, not América.
Second, can you point out precisely what the "controversy" was behind your bigoted, lame joke?
Are you adequate?
But you cant jump over grand canyon in two steps.
/das Ix
This is my sig, show me yours
How come I only see this article in Lynx? When I use Netscape the first article is about the P4.
-- Cheers!
Btw I forgot to mention the proposed bill for the mission is 350 million half the cost of a Boing 747
**Life is too short to be serious**
First paragraph of my post above is a quote from the person I replied to.
Are you adequate?
India was never impoverished Farming colony. The British made it out to be that... and in spite of what the rest of the world thinks, it's a fun place to be. Right mix of the old and the new.
Take a walk down Queen St. at 5pm... you see the same thing. Your point?
"Brain-Sucking Alien" emblem (available here as a screen saver), all over
There are about a million times as many pictures of the Queen in Toronto (check your pocket change)... so, uh, your point?
Since they seem to completely distrust and shun every other ethnic group
Gee, it seems like you are the one shunning and distrusting other ethnic groups... so what's your point?
Multiculturalism is a dangerous experiment.
Hm, seems like the last "experiment" we had with state sponsored racism (Germany '33 - '45) turned out to be extremely dangerous. It also failed, as Mr. Hitler et al ruined most of Europe and (in Hitler's case) didn't even have the courage to stick around and take what was coming to him after we kicked his ass.... so, really, I don't get your point.
I hate being forced by my government to be a part of it. I hate Canada.
Congratulations. Get the fuck out.
2 1337 4 u!
1. Political Correctness Police
Yeah, this is so very convenient for you, isn't it? Yeah, this is so very convenient for you, isn't it? You assume that: 1) 'USians' are all white and 2) they can't take a joke at their own expense.
I never been so broke that I couldn't leave town.
Sure India wants to go to Pluto And hang around a space station for decades but wouldnt people laugh at them if they attempted anything like that before they had even done something so boring,routine and easy as sending an orbuter to the moon Wake up and smell the coffee . Just because the US can do it doesnt mean they share the technology with other nations especially third world coloured non christian nations and if they want to do something about it they have no option but to reinvent the wheel
**Life is too short to be serious**
What was insulting about that? Oh the gringo part? I've heard it so much it has become kind of funny. Or at least I wouldn't take it that seriously if someone said 'Hey, gringo' to me. If they said 'Hey you fucking gringo', then I might, but a lot has to do with the tone.
Also your example wasn't that fair because it really is easy to laugh at the US society. Mexico has a genuine culture, well I've never been there, but from what I gather. I don't think it makes Mexico better necessarily, they just get the privilege of taking their society a little more seriously, or rather maybe expecting others to. I don't know any of my American (USian if you like, I don't care as long as it's not for insult's sake) friends who would blame anyone for laughing at us. We're not all bad people, and not having a rich culture doesn't make us evil... or does it?
Bangalore, We have a problem
:-)
Actually, that will more likely be
"Hassan, We have a problem"
which is more apt
The city of Hassan has ISRO's master control facility, even though a large part of ISRO is based in Bangalore.
Today, we send rockets up so often that nobody even notices anymore. We can calculate in less than a second what an entire team of America's finest scientists would spend their whole day computing back when we went to the moon; I've got a better computer in my jacket pocket than they had for their entire operation. Today's spacecraft are durable, tested, and reliable--a far cry from the spindly, foil-wrapped craft of yesteryear. The guesswork of how to get to the moon no longer exists. What took the entire weight of the world's greatest superpower four decades ago could be done by any number of private companies today (assuming they wanted to devote their resources to a moon operation, of course.)
As fly-by-night as you'd like the ISRO to appear to the casual reader, they're clearly more organized and better funded than certain other space programs featured on /. as of late. True, a moon landing isn't a triviality by any stretch of the imagination. Given what we have and know today, though, I'd argue that they've got an excellent shot of pulling it off, should they move forward with it.
Remember, kids, it's only premarital if you plan on getting married.
> moon-orbiter for Rs 350 crore (a crore is
> 100,000, so 350,000,000 rupees ~= $11 million),
I thought a lakh was 10^5, while a crore was 10^7. So wouldn't Rs 350 crore be Rs 350,00,00,000, which is Rs 3.5 x 10^9 ~= $78.4 million as of today's market close?
Whatever you come across in life.. as long as there's no money in it,... it'll probably be alright.
Point where.
2) they can't take a joke at their own expense.
Point where is the joke.
Suppose I called you asshole: "Hey asshole". Where is the joke here?
Strawman arguments.
Are you adequate?
The moon's an armpit. Not even worth going for the scenery. It'd be much better (I think) to try to rendevouz with one of the 900 or so near earth asteroids they've found. You could probably make a case for mining those things which would not only probably make you a lot of money, it'd have the beneficial side effect of dismantling those near earth objects so they don't crash into us. And you also gain space experience so you'll be ready to move your mining operations farther afield when the time comes. It's a win-win situation any way you look at it.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
That's all hooey. Check out this APS What's New report, in particular:
But Science magazine (25 June 99) disclosed that the crystals used were not even grown in space, but in Australia. Space-grown crystals can be distinguished only by their cost.
Argh. The link is here
With the US Failing at everything they have done reacently, a bit of a kick up the bum from another country will be good for them. Look how much they managed to do in the 60's with the race with the USSR.
You apparently happen to be a very easygoing person. Good for you.
Are you adequate?
Its about time the US got some competition in the space arena
Duh ? Ever heard of the Russians ? The French ? They both have very good space infrastructure - hell, the French even have a bigger market share than the US in term of commercial space launch ! The Russians have always been better than Nasa for manned missions (you can laugh at Mir problems, yet it did more than Nasa ever did). Even the Japanese and Chinese have some kind of space industry (yet quite small right now). The US always had some competition in the space industry, from the first Spoutnik to the modern Ariane V.
Hmm, I wonder what they were thinking back in the sixties. I mean, come on, if nobody can claim ownership to any part of space, what's to stop a bunch of alien pirates to exchange copyrighted MP3z in outer space ? Not to mention the fact clearly demonstrated by recent history that it's impossible to actually innovate(tm) on something if you cannot patent it. No wonder we don't many exciting new space missions these days.
I bet India hasn't signed that stupid treaty. I wish them good luck, though I think that a manned mission with a lawyer inside their space vehicle would have been better.
sctualy, back in the sixties (i don't remember hte exact date), the US along w/ the USSR and a bunch of other nations signed a treaty declaring that no nation could claim ownership to any part of space, not even the orbital space above each respective country.
Think --> Think Different --> Think OSS
Good. Its about time the US got some competition in the space arena. Nothing could be better to get us interested in space again.
Maybe India will plan a joint effort with Radio Shack and their hope to get to the moon? Heck, they're the perfect people for Radio Shack to sponsor, considering most of Radio Shacks products come from there.
Standard I/O Error. Incompetent/Operator.
----------------
Programming, is like sex.
This is not an article about a planned moon mission, this is an article about a planned proposal for a moon mission.
In the next six months the team will wrestle with the details of launching such a mission, including its cost-effectiveness and the areas in which Indian scientists can significantly add to the mountain of knowledge that has already been collected about the moon. It will form the basis of a project report that ISRO will submit to the Central Government for approval
They have no funding, no governmental support, no scientific sponsors and no plan. Hey if all you need is a "desire" to get press, hell, I'm planning a mission to mars!
In the next six months my team will wrestle with the details of launching such a mission, including its cost-effectiveness and the areas in which /. wannabe scientists can significantly add to the mountain of knowledge that has already been collected about the Mars. It will form the basis of a project report that 348 will submit to the Slashdot submission queue for approval.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
Behold.. the power of cheese
And the US has how many times Vietnam's population? Besides (and I'm stretching my geography here) they're fighting over Kashmir correct? Well that's a relatively small plot o' land. Not like India could put their entire population there to fight it out.
As master Yoda says "Judge me by my size will you?" (or something close to that)
-cpd
That's Chinese, not Indians ;-(
Apparently the Chinese are even worse of than the Indians.
---
---
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a sick mind." (Terry Pratchett)
Everyone knows who the first country to launch something into space was - Russia, and the second was the USA - who was the third (I'll give you a clue "true north strong and free")
i believe it is the intent behind the reference, sir.
I said that indian people were in poor dental health...and that they were poor. while in fact india is a relatively poor country (comparatively at least) - i make no assumptions regarding their dental health. Assuming Indians eat better than americans, one could probably think they have better dental health than my own country. It was all in jest. While you one may find my joke tasteless, it was entirely obvious that it was, in fact, a joke
However, when i was called a bigot, that, sir, was in all seriousness, and yes....that does offend me. Not once in all the reply posts have i made in this thread did i state that i truly believed that India was a country "lesser" to that of the U.S. - I suppose i am just glad that when someone makes light of my heritage, i am able to laugh it off, or perhaps even participate in the meriment. I would hate to be as miserably defensive as the Indian gentleman who originally replied to my post.
BTW - if you haven't read all of the sub-threads, i encourage you to do so. there are some very insightful coments from several other people. Regardless of their viewpoints.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
> India: Don't eat other cows Actually.. Not anymore! Sure all animals are suposed to be sacred.. but i guess some just couldn't resist the monetary possibilities of slaughtering their beloved cows... Then again.. *some* in the US have been known to eat other humans...
-mg.
But how many people write unreadable because of this pen?
(-% TwistedMind %-)
ATM, there is no profit in getting into space, why go when you can't even feed yourself?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
India and Indian people contribute a lot to the world. I think that especially the US should be thankful to them. I think even though india may be a poorer nation, they are still a very important nation, and this will help spread that knowledge
"A diplomat is a man who always remembers a woman's birthday but never remembers her age." -Robert Frost
Millions living in poverty and this is the best use for cash the subcontinent can come up with.
Priorities people!
--- RedBastard
But front lines of wars are usually very small.
Its a war of attrition that they would have won quite easily.
Um, no. A crore is 100 lakh and a lakh is 100 000. So the estimated cost is 3.5 x 10^10 rupees, which is about $10^9.
This is either very cheap for a manned mission or very expensive for a probe.
"...you mean the US, not América."
Woohoo! Can I play too?
[put on scientist coat, wave finger in air]
"Actually, what I think he means is the United States of America as opposed to, say, the United States of Brazil."
If you're going to pick nits, try to do at least a half-assed job of it (or maybe you're having trouble obtaining the necessary .5 donkeys).
Oh, I'm a karma whore alright--just not the kind you're thinking of...
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
NASA caused, both directly and indirectly, millions, possibly billions, of dollars worth of return from aerospace technologies
I have heard many times this argument for investing into space.
But tell me, if instead of investing in space waiting for "direct or indirect returns", you invest directly in Earth technologies, what would you have achieved?
Maybe the returns would have improved even aerospace tech. Certainly the Earth ones would be much better.
I can share that going to space is good, but don't try to defend it with phony arguments.
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Mr Goel is certainly right. Sending a satellite in lunar orbit is not extremely different from placing it into geosynchroneous Earth orbit. In fact, a commercial comsat of Hughes (AsiaSat 3S), which was thought to be lost due to a 4th stage malfunction of a SL-12 Proton, was rescued to geosynchroneous orbit by performing a double lunar flyby using new resonant orbital hopping theory. Checkout this press release.
Do something different, please! There are so many good ideas which are untried and could give India international respect and real spin-offs.
try ONE quarter of a million miles.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Set me straight!
Somebody tell me the truth. I don't want to hear a bunch of people informing me how obvious it is that you would explode, or even die. I want evidence saying that either: "With the right training, a human can survive a vacuum;" or, "With any amount of training, it is not possible for a human to survive a vacuum even for a few seconds." I'm curious!!
STOP THE PRESSES!!
Here's a quote I just found (it's Google's cached copy, which loads much faster):
Well that's certainly interesting!! I feel a little better now that that's resolved... (If anyone's got any links to actual hard numbers, I'd love to see'em tho. :)
The streets shall flow with the blood of the Guberminky.
I own a Fisher Space pen and according to the literature in the pen case, the pen was vital to saving the mission. Supposedly one of the switches in the lander broke and the pen was used in its place.
Maybe a pencil would have broken? Then again, if they had a screwdriver it probably would have worked too.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Maybe you should cut out the caffeine, man...
I, for one, am far more interested in lunar missions than Mars missions. Sure, Mars missions are more *sexy*, but what happened with regards to the Moon after Apollo? Nothing! It was all about getting there, not staying there.
Establishing a base on the Moon is far more important than some one-shot effort to show the world that it's possible to go to Mars. Get the ISS working (if possible), then expand to the Moon and establish a PERMANENT base there. So I'm all for having more countries able to launch payload to the moon - the more ways to launch stuff the cheaper it is likely to be, which again means that it will sooner rather than later that we'll go back to the Moon - this time to stay...
Just a thought: Who in their right mind would collaborate with NASA about putting stuff on Mars? (hehe)
Black holes are where God divided by zero
Maybe one day you'll learn to put the percent sign after the number like the rest of us.
That was the joke, you nitwit....
The book was "The Fountains of Paradise". He wrote about the building of the first space elevator.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Advanced rocket tech
What a firghening prospect...
India has nukes
"'GNU' without using an acronym."
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
pak is not scared of china it is its friend
Diamonds? My ass..
Thank you, that is all.
The streets shall flow with the blood of the Guberminky.
A slave-labour cartel
Is doing something that was done 30 years ago on the edge of technology?
Apparently, considering the fact that the US for example is no longer able to do it.
Sure ... but wouldn't it make even more sense if all those countries (India, Pakistan and to a degree China) would worry about feeding their people before spending billions of dollars on their version of the nuclear arms and space race?
...
It's often ironic to see how countries which are at the brink of insolvency, always manage to find the funds necessary to build an army, wage war, engage in space programs or other huge projects (witness Pakistan and their missile program as well as Russia waging war in the Kaukasus
I know at least 10 slashdotters are going to e-mail me back and tell me I'm ignorant. So tell me why I'm ignorant, and will someone please explain to me how this is going to help the average Indian earning less a week than we spend on lunch everyday?
This makes me sick, because the exact same thing is happening in the United States, in China and in Russia. Just so the egotistical scientists can feel their years of study to get a phd is 'paying off'. And just so the little boys in parliament can feel good about their big toys. Now to me, that is the height of ignorance. Blasting a hunk of metal into space, at a cost of billions in order to satisy oneself, while millions are dying everyday.
But don't get me wrong. I'm a very scientific person, and I believe the things that have benefited mankind more than anything else in history are scientific discoveries. But what's the point of spending billions on these when they go to no practical use, except to satisfy some unfortunate individuals? Why don't we invest some money into scientific research that will truly be advantageous to everyone?
--
Daniel Zeaiter
daniel@academytiles.com.au
http://www.academytiles.com.au
ICQ: 16889511
Ah, the Fisher Space Pen. $1 million white elephant, or...
Last time I visited KSC, those suchers went for about $5 at the gift shop. How many do you suppose they've sold over the years?
Having liven in Orlando, FL, and knowing firsthand how tourists'll buy damn near any little trinket...
I wouldn't be at all supprised if thet sell 200,000 a YEAR, much less TOTAL.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
i know this post right here is going to get moderated down. why? because some asshole is coming through and meta-moderating the FUCK out of all my posts.
when a post has nothing to do with the original story, yet is in context with the thread - IT'S NOT FUCKING OFF-TOPIC you vindictive assholes. but hey, way to rise above the flagrant racism some of you felt i displayed with my original post.
after you're done meta-moderating me are you gonna get together and bomb a fucking abortion clinic because you think "hey - killing children is wrong! let's go kill the people who kill children! that seems right in our fucking warped minds"???? way to demonstrate how ignorant and intolerant I am.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
so it should not be long before Pakistan announce their space plans, or the rocket mysteriously goes off course.
conspiracy theories, mwu h^ h^ h^
One?
Apollo 11 was our first manned landing, but it sure as shit wasn't our last.
Besides this is "just" a probe, I beleve we have done that quite a bit (including the "manned probe" -- the Apollo 10 mission....)
I know U.S. schools suck (witness my spelling), but maybe you should go rent HBO's "from the earth to the moon", the drama has been punched up a bit, and the stories compressed, but it's basically true, and entertaining.
A pity India won't get as much spin-off tech, they could use it. Regretably most of the problems have been solved. At least there are still intresting moon questions to answer, I hope they try too rather then just going for the orbiting flag.
you know - some of the few racists i know in this world are the ones that go "hey - i have a friend who's black!"
you just said it. - you know what you're problem is, you've given in to the P.C. view of life. You might think i'm a narrow minded individual because i posted the way i did. I think you're a narrow minded individual for exactly the opposite reasons. You will defend to the death freedom of speech - so long as you're in agreement with the speech. But it doesn't matter - when all is said and done, i don't see color or culture. I see an individual. - now...run along, there's a cause somewhere that's one protester short!
"I don't agree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it!"
-Voltaire
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
One word: nukes. Who said anything about a conventional warfare fight.
Bingo Foo
---
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
a lot of it happening round here. anyway, this thread is the most entertaining on the whole topic, even if it is about nonsense mostly. isn't that the point? the cut and thrust of discourse?
India has a lot of social problems (concerning sikhs and poorness). Isn't it better for them to first solve those problems instead of burning money on a project like this? Or is it another try to intimidate neighbour Pakistan...
Folks,
Apart from the nice pun, the title and this situation quite reminds me of what preceded the launch of the Indian space program.
You had folks screaming all over the place saying o-so-sweet facts like you "Indians" don't have food, etc etc and you want to launch a satellite? Almost every stereotype that is assoicated with India was a reason for India not to think of a satellite. And to think that the Insat 2B worked for more years than folks can remember!
The net result is that today ISRO spinoffs are working in areas as far as groundwater estimations throughout India to poor fishermen in the Bay of Bengal who depend the eye in the sky that tells them where fish can be found.
It's easy to dismiss as a pipe dream, but remember, if you want to aim, aim for the stars, you may not get there, but you won't end up with a handful of mud either!
All weakness is within you, As is all courage.
Sure, NASA's budget may look massive by the standards of ONE INDIVIDUAL. But try comparing it to any of the MANY money pits the US dumps dollars into... and it's a (tiny) drop in the bucket.
Compare it to the money dumped into social security every year (thanks HEAPS.. F-ing FDR)
Compare it to the money dumped into national debt intrest every year (thanks HEAPS.. F-ing congress)
Sorry, but If *I* were appointed "budget root" and tasked with cutting wasteful government fat, NASA'd be nowhere NEAR the top of the list. In fact, it'd prolly get a budget INCREASE, even AFTER a tax cut, AND a faster repayment schedule for the national debt.
Want all of the gory details of where money is wasted? Go to:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
One thing I liked about the article:
:)
:)
"to (boldly) go where no Indian has gone before"
Warp 5, ensign Mohla!
They've filled the Earth and now they're going for the moon!
(having lived in Britain a few years, I can't resist to take the piss out of them a bit
Now, seriously, India has many far more serious problems to worry about (like illiteracy) than sending some metal on the moon (and probably an Indian, later).
It may be highly prestigious for the Indian whatever (government / space agency / ?), but I'd seriously recommend them to direct all that money somewhere where the people will benefit. I don't think that the average Indian over there cares whether they send a man on the moon. They will care, however, if all this money is spent to improve, say, water supplies, at least in some cities.
I say that because I've lived with some Indians for some time and I know they have many more important things to worry than seeing a fellow Indian in orbit
Trian
I'm no longer fed up with MS Windows: I go rid of them
What makes more sense: spending millions (billions?) of dollars on kicking off a space program for no real reason other than peer pressure, or spending those same millions (billions?) on feeding the starving population of your damn country?
Well, if you ask me (and you did, sort of), it makes at least as much sense if not more to kick off the space program.
Seriously, think about it. Say they spend a billion dollars on feeding their already too many people. They will continue to reproduce like little bunnies as they already are. This will mean next year they will have even less to spend on anything else. So it makes no sense to artificially inflate their population even farther above what they can support.
So if all these dumb ass "feed the hungry" groups actually gave a shit about the well-being of the people there they would let them die off until the population stabilized at a point that was actually maintainable.
They are already starving. That is a sign to anyone with any sense: there are too many people there. Also, they chose to be in the situation they are in. The only people with any right to complain about those conditions are those who have chosen not to have children. Everyone else is the cause of the problem.
---CONFLICT!!---
You should read up on the AV-RO projects involving launching a man to the moon :).
And in the meantime you take away from those who need just a little extra money for the minimun investment...
This is a complex subject. Nobody (well, almost) is against helping those who are mentally unable to work. Nor do we mind making up the different for those who physically cannot work as much as normal. But there are many perfectly capabel adults on the goverment dole, while at the same time the fed worrys about unemployment being too low. Get the able mind and body folks over 65 off their rear ends (out of the RV normally) and that worry would ease a little.
Like I said, this is a complex subject, and the above "solution" is not enough, just a small example that intentially is not fully thought through.
I hate it when people try rewriting history. Well done Captain Nitpick.
Roy Plunkett had a cylinder of tetrafluoroethylene (gas, expensive). When he opened the valve, nothing came out. He weighted the cylinder and found that it was the same weight as a full cylinder - ie. the gas wasn't lost due to a leak. The cylinder was cut open (Dr. Plunkett probably wanted to know what was going on because it was so expensive) and a white, insoluble, high melting point material was found inside (PTFE - Teflon).
IANAAE, but it doesn't sound that hard to put a satellite into orbit around the moon. Looks like they're on NASA time though ("we've planned to implement a committee to investigate the possibility of launching a craft 30 years from now"), but it's nice to see some other countries moving towards space. It all comes down to resources I guess; just about every country now has access to more advanced technology than the US had back in the 60's, but most can't muster the resources needed to get into space.
I wasn't really specific about the culture, but thanks for the info, I wasn't aware Aztec culture was that much alive in Mexico. Mostly, though, I admire that they have a culture at all, whether it's a mix or not.. a culture not heavy infulenced by corporations and adverteisment campaigns.. or maybe I'm wrong about that about Mexico, I don't really know. Speedy Gonzales wasn't really entering my mind, mostly I pictured some of the footage of national holiday celebrations and parades.
There had been rumors in the past few years that the Chinese were planning to launch a man into about in the year 2000, mainly for national pride.
So are you saying that everything in the US is (was?) all well and good? No one going hungry or any other serious problems?
Intolerant people should be shot.
Maybe its too late to post, but for what its worth...
What do they gain by sending a probe to moon, which was done by US and others 30 years back? Why can't the join up the ongoing space mission?
Well, would the US give Indians the know-how (technology) to Indians, so that they can start contributing. I seriously doubt so. The US is trying so hard that no new country should get into nukes. And I guess, the same applies to Space programs. Unless other folks have knowledge or money to spare, US would not involve them, or encourage them. So how do you expect the Indians to move up in this field?
Why do they call this cutting edge technology?
It may not be cutting edge for US, but it is for all countries except for US, Russia and a couple more.
Though there's probably some truth in what you say, bear in mind that Indians rarely seeing things through the same eyes as Westerners. No one can guess what's going through an Indian mind but an Indian (or a Pakistani, since whatever you put between them - religion, politics - they are and always will be the same people). I'd recommend your voyaging to India if you haven't already done so. You'll get to see a real civilization, as close to untainted by "ours" as you can get. To many eyes, India looks like a backward country. Until they go there, that is. Then they realize that they never even got their basic definition right. Did you ever read Tad Williams? Think of the Indians as the Sithi. Oh ... and I'm not Indian myself and will joyously accept being shot down in flames by one if she finds I'm talking crap.
"As the absolute total of newsgroup messages increases, so entropy rises, resulting in a rich cache of pat replies which can be invoked as incantations in place of arguments. In many forums, it is customary to accompany such incantations with insults, as these too are a valuable way of attacking whilst having nothing new to say. As this entropy reaches a maximum, the need for human involvement will decline below the level needed to sustain interest and people will revert to more traditional exchanges such as fist-fights and poison-pen letters."
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
From 1999 Country Reports on Economic Policy and Trade Practices:
India:
Labor Force (millions) 420.0
Unemployment Rate (pct)22.5
So compared to the US, things are all well and good... and that goes for the 1960s as well as now.
In the "new economy" India has an opportunity to cash in on the vast resource of mental power that their population provides, transforming the liability of overpopulation into the asset of a highly skilled work force.
Building nukes may help a little, going to the moon may help a lot, but either way, they have a long way to go before misery and the assault on human dignity ends in India.
And yes, that is even in comparison to the U.S., home of Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Simpson murders, and (the horror, the horror) Kiddieland in San Antonio, TX.
Excellent. Hopefully they'll hurry up with the manned missions, bring back some Helium-3 and scare the living fsck out of our lazy, "shoot-as-low-as-possible" space program.
Please don't flame me about this, I know they've done some fantastic things, including landing many spacecraft on the moon, but come on:
1)The Shuttle sucks. It's worthless. We can do better and cheaper with non-reusables. How messed up is that? Hopefully VentureStar will be a great replacement (or, maybe, Rotary Rocket's Roton).
2)We haven't GONE anywhere since the mid-70's. We're getting lax.
Just my 2c....
+++ATH0
i bet Pakistan will anounce a compeating mission soon.
What about that fellow who planned to rocket himself into space from his backyard? If they all hooked up together, who knows how far they could go?
Percentage of gov't revenues from corporate income taxes have approximately halved since 1956 while revenues from individuals has remained constant.
Good, corporate taxes should be abolished, as they are quite possibly one of the dumbest "features" of the US tax system. Corporate income taxes are only passed on to the consumer ultimately, and therefore disproportionately affect those with the lowest incomes. Not to mention their contribution to the double taxation on corporate dividends.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
actually, using a more practical approach, india plans on stacking each member of the population on the others' shoulders untill they create a human tower...they should reach the moon with a stack of approximately .82 billion people - all with poor dental health
how is this possible? how do they breath outside the earth's atmosphere? - simple. very long bendy straws.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Hey.. the US owns the moon.. they got there first. :) Finders keepers.
Correction - 1 crore = 10,000,000. 1 Lakh = 100,000. So the actual estimate is 3,500,000,000, which is about $80 million! I'm an Indian, BTW. :-)
Slightly different from NASA though.
The space program has spun off quite a few benefits, including new polymers for surgical treatment. I do recall reading reports a couple of years ago (sorry, no data online) that at one medical conference, there were three major breakthroughs (locally again) in the treatment of cardiac problems. These were from the space program (material research in carbon fibres). This brought down the cost of treatment by about 20 -30%. That includes the cost of going to a developed country for treatment. The space program does contribute to Indian social needs, not just pride.
And about the nuclear proliferation stuff, India needs nukes simply because its neighbours have them. Just apply the same arguments as for gun control on a far larger scale. (I don't agree with those either).
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
Then again, who knows... Maybe there entire program consists of hiring the crazy rocket guy and blasting him to the moon. After all, the guy is crazy, and he's already had some training. It'd save the Indian project much money!
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seumas.com
What I don't understand about the Pakistani/Indian conflict is what *possible* conventional military threat Pakistan poses to India. India has what -- 2x? 4x Pakistan's population? Somehow I just don't see Pakistan winning a conventional fight with India under any circumstances.
The China/India conflict makes much more sense -- closely matched populations, and both ethnic groups are strongly represented in South Asia outside of their home countries, leading to perhaps some kind of racio-politico conflict.
I'm betting that China only fears Pakistan's ability to spread Islamic radicalism into China's Muslim provinces -- that's one fight the Chinese don't want on their hands, hence the sales of Silkworm missles to Iran..
But all of this is moot. As long as pioneer stock Americans see governments as their ticket to the new frontier, the long-term prospects for all of terrestrial life, human and nonhuman, are going to continue rapidly deteriorating.
Seastead this.
I think that the US and other countries should form an alliance and work together on this. Why doesn't India work with NASA and the Russian cosmonauts, or better yet, that guy who's launching himself into space?
Mexico doesn't really have 'one unique culture'. There's a good two million that don't speak Spanish, but native Aztec dialects. The stereotype about Speedy Gonzales is more related to the Spanish descendants, NOT the natives.
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"The crowning intellectual accomplishment of the brain is the real world."
A rat done bit my sister Nell.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Her face and arms began to swell.
(and Whitey's on the moon)
I can't pay no doctor bill.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
Ten years from now I'll be payin' still.
(while Whitey's on the moon)
The man jus' upped my rent las' night.
('cause Whitey's on the moon)
No hot water, no toilets, no lights.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
I wonder why he's uppi' me?
('cause Whitey's on the moon?)
I wuz already payin' 'im fifty a week.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Taxes takin' my whole damn check,
Junkies makin' me a nervous wreck,
The price of food is goin' up,
An' as if all that shit wuzn't enough:
A rat done bit my sister Nell.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Her face an' arm began to swell.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
Was all that money I made las' year
(for Whitey on the moon?)
How come there ain't no money here?
(Hmm! Whitey's on the moon)
Y'know I jus' 'bout had my fill
(of Whitey on the moon)
I think I'll sen' these doctor bills,
Airmail special
(to Whitey on the moon)
pencil tips break. On earth, this isnt that big of a deal, but in space, these things could cause problems. Graphite dust or pencil tips getting sucked into the computers.. or facing the threat of getting a piece of it lodged in your eye or throat.
Admittedly, it may not be the most cost-effective thing in the world, but NASA doesnt like to take chances with its people.
Anyone with a backyard can build a manned space rocks. I know it's true, /. told me!
Drag n' Drop DVD Recommendations
but I think the russians had a probe there first, presumably with a flag on it somewhere.. maybe could constitute a "stake" if the Duma makes it law..
Thank you for your comments, they have been taken into condsideration despite the fact that you can not spell nor are even sure enough of yourself to post your username and e-mail. It's good to see that there are still meatheads out there to make democracy work the way it does. Have a nice day.
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." - Carl Sagan
Stuff changes. The Industrial revolution meant that India's farming population would be impoverished compared to the Manufacturing workers in the west. This has been true for a long time and is why the North won the US Civil war. Manufacturers make more money than farmers.
Unless you grow, process and market some specialized crop like Jamaican coffee.
These days India has not only caught the industrial revolution under it's progressive government but it has leapt into the information age and is now the prime outsourcing site for US software companies.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Wouldn't that be the USSR? [/nitpick]
I didn't know that about Canada, though - I wonder how much else there is about international space exploration efforts that we don't here about here in the states.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
>that kind of push-pull border conflict?
I was under the impression that at least some of the conflicts with Pakistan were at the level of full wars.
Formal wars between India and Pakistan:
Non-declared wars:
PBS interview by Jim Lehrer about 1999 conflict plus some background.
I have a bunch of more references if anyone is interested.
to get rid of their untouchable castes for sure... Bastards!
in this age of communication i'm just not getting through
It is more a case of NASA not being able to cooperate with India than the other way round. There is a long list of technologies and products which the U.S. government restricts India from buying to prevent it from acquiring nuclear/missile technologies. This is a ban on "dual use" technologies. So the Indian meteorological department cannot buy a super computer to model weather systems because it can potentially be used for nuclear simulations.
Yes, money could be better spent for many projects. But if science and technology(no matter if it is behind that of the U.S.) is not one of them, a country condemns itself to remain backward.
"Corporate income taxes are only passed on to the consumer ultimately, and therefore disproportionately affect those with the lowest incomes."
How does your second clause follow from the first?
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I for one see absolutely no evidence whatsoever that those who control the purse strings turned away from nuclear proliferation, wasteful manned missions, and 'just for the sake of doing it' public spending and instead focused on understanding and making our own world better.
You may have missed it (press coverage has become lighter on this kind of thing as major media have continued to merge under control of those most invested in the status quo), but defense spending is still increasing. Yes, in the absence of viable enemies who can justify it... They're even still planning to pour billions into a program to shoot down a few (of the hundreds) of missiles that might come this way if some national (as opposed to terrorist) entity started hostilities -- the so-called "star wars" [sic] defense system.
Why is this happening? Because the money collected from taxpayers has to be poured into programs that will benefit the rich, who (is anyone surprised? surely not) make obscene salaries and stock gains from running and investing in such companies.
Ask any engineering student what happened back when the defense programs started to lose their justification (I know it's asking a lot, but if you're too young to remember, you can look it up): Engineering students could no longer get jobs! Why? Because in this country, almost the only research going on in high-tech/defense fields requiring their skills are funded by the "defense industry" (that is, taxpayers).
American educators have been moaning for years that American students don't take engineering courses, but the reason is the students couldn't get jobs if they did. Why is medical technology so expensive? Why doesn't this country have enough dialysis machines, or other non-lethal technology? This country is no more interested than any other set of national policy geeks in doing things to "benefit its people" -- this country can't even rouse itself to devote sufficient funds to educate its children, or provide minimal health care (unlike most civilized/wealthy countries).
Have they fought an all-out war, or has it been that kind of push-pull border conflict?
Heh, the US got nailed in SE Asia alright, but battlefield decisions weren't being made in the battlefield, they were being made in Washington.
Too add to this, the US kept expecting the VC to fight stand-up battles, which they never did. When the NVA fought stand-up against the US they got creamed.
Khe Sanh is an example of a win -- Westmoreland made Giap think he had another Dien Bien Phu. Instead, Giap kept sending guys in to get killed. I've read that the NVA lost upwards of 3 divisions -- in clear weather we flew B-52 strikes every 90 minutes. The film footage around Khe Sanh at the end of the seige is phenomenal -- the area for miles around is a virtual moonscape devoid of anything living.
Anyway, the point is had we fought a military campaign instead of a political fiddlefsck, Vietnam would be a different place.
then people who are poor in India(as a percentage of population) So I think u better feed your former slaves first.
**Life is too short to be serious**
That budget site rocks! No, really. There's a "citizen's guide to the budget" that is really easy to follow with pie charts and everything.
From just a quick perusal, here's two interesting facts:
Percentage of gov't revenues from corporate income taxes have approximately halved since 1956 while revenues from individuals has remained constant.
In 1999, we spent $261 billion on "DOD-Military" (with $13 billion on "DOD-Other", whatever that is). In the same year we spent only $18 billion on "Space, Science and Technology" For 2000 the projected numbers are 277 and 19. WTF is the DOD spending all this money on? And don't tell me "research" because then I'll just respond "then it should be listed under "Science".
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I would not be at all surprised to see Pakistan make a similar statement within the next year (Although I doubt their economy is in good enough shape to handle the strain of a serious space program)
>Have they fought an all-out war, or has it been >that kind of push-pull border conflict?
I was under the impression that at least some of the conflicts with Pakistan were at the level of full wars. I don't remember any exact dates, durations and numbers (which would be interesting to know), but I am fairly sure that there have been some straight on toe-to-toe battles fought over control of the border and Kashmir.
As for the Vietnam reference, the politcol will would definately be different. There are years of enimity built up between the two, dating from the partition- much different than the US (I had a history teacher that claims that the US faired the way it did in the war was because the army couldn't get hyped up about trying to kill Ho Chi Min, who looked "like an Asian Santa Claus"). However, my main point was that despite the inequity of numbers, the ability to slip guerilla forces into the other teams camp and launch attacks from within can be devastating. Combine that with the fact that the odds are good that Pakistan could count on the support of certain radical Islamic groups inside India (which isn't to say that there aren't plenty of radical Hindus and Sikhs to go around too), India could have a real mess on its hands.
"Sweet creeping zombie Jesus!"
"Everyone knows who the first country to launch something into space was - Russia"
I would make that, launch "someone" into space ..
But anyway .. I also thought that everyone knew that the first country was Russia - until recently I heard a competition on the radio where the question was "which country was the first to get someone in space", and most people who answered were quite sure it was the US of A.
I guess that demonstrates the power of propaganda in distorting the truth. The USA will make sure to remind everyone on the planet as often as possible that they were the first on the moon, but Russia modestly keeps quiet about their achievements .. the result? People end up thinking that only the USA could possibly have made such progress.
... Mars missions are more *sexy* ...
Especially since that new video of Britney Spears reveils to us that she's from Mars and not from Kentucky (?) as they would like us to believe.
BTW, this is an uninteresting fact.
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"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a sick mind." (Terry Pratchett)
Having become a nuclear power recently, next bloody thing you'll hear is that they'll have some ridiculous plan to detonate a nuke on the moon ..
On second thoughts, naah ... nobody could be stupid enough to consider that ..
Wasn't Bruce Sterling in "Islands in the Net" who wrote about a Singaporean mission to space in a time when the superpowers have lost their faith in astronautics?
__
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
"And Russia owned the most powerful propaganda machine in history for most of its existence. I don't know where you were the last 50 years"
Then I guess their powerful propaganda machine was never really focused on South Africa, because all we ever bloody hear about over here day in day out is how great America is, yet we never hear so much as a peep from Russia.
How do you bypass the lameness filter??
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Of course India has rocket scientists, being a country of half a billion people with nuclear power plants and cars and computers and everything (not just rickshaw drivers and cow worshippers, as some seem to think). Which is not to say they have the money to do do much, but hey, this is how things get talked about by scientists.. indian scientists have made great contributions to space science, its not just the techno-buddhas of the west who can have bright ideas.
It's history repeating itself. If you consider the political climate in India and the cold war they are caught in with Pakistan, the situation closely mirrors the one between the US and USSR in the late 60's. India has detonated it's first H-bomb in the past two years, and Pakistan still reserves the right to do the same. Both countries are scared of China, which is also engaged in an effort to build a nuclear arsenal. That region of the world is de-stabilizing. India needs to show they are technologically superior. Given the right incentive, you may see the Indian government get on board with this moon mission.
We went to the moon for the very same reasons.
Am I the only person to notice that the cover story date is July 3rd 2000. Is India 4 days ahead of us???
Last year, a geostationary communications satellite that was in the wrong orbit due to a failure in the launch rocket was actually sent round the moon so the moons gravity could tug it into the correct orbit and so salvage it.
Link to BBC story
.. and make the world a better place for everybody
I like the thought of them doing something big.
Realistically, in the world of freaky chinese and North Korean nuclear psychos, a country like India is rpetty good. They speak english and have a democratic government, they are also the international hamsters, (harmless as hamsters)
Indians aren't stupid either, this is betetr than pakistan and the other Jihad type nations who can't possibly get neat technology without threatening people with it.
Fook
The price we pay for immortality... is death. Narnia The Great Fall
Maybe Brian Walker can convice India to fund his project, that way, he can go farther than his 30 miles off the ground...
And this way India can have a manned mission, 4 years sooner... Everybody wins this way!!!
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
... and so on, and so forth. Fair go to the Indians if they want to stretch their aerospace capabilities - whatever the wisdom of the particular mission selected.
Meantime, I can't help feeling that this particular development is being oversold - when all's said and done the actual news is of one group of (albeit senior) figures flying a kite to get some funding for a mission in maybe five years' time. They haven't even got as far as a formal proposal yet.
Mileage may, naturally, vary.
-- AndrewD
A Maze of Twisty Little Laws, All Different.
to infinity and beyond. Okay, so people have like been there and done that? But, what's definately cool about this that this can begin a cold war space race between India and Pakistan. That way America can look back at what happened to the Soviet Union and reflect on what's going to happen in the Indus Valley.
Also, big money in launching satellites. Kazikstan(sp?) might want to start getting worried as well.
kick some CAD
There'll be a similar announcement from Pakistan soon - wait and see!
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It's life Jim, but not as w
The Indians who migrate to Jamaica seaking employment ( mostly medical staff ) say they love there homeland and will even return home for aranged wedins. Most are brutaly honest and will tell both the good and the bad.
Good: Indians are geting educated to high levles at a rapid rate.
Bad: It's taking a long time to overcome a long history of large impoverished pesant populations.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Where do they expect to get the money to do even attempt to pull this off I half to believe that the money can be better spent elsewhere. However I would rather have them spend money on this than on further nuclear weapon tests.
I can't really answer this question for you. But in a few years, when we've invented a workable time machine, you can go back in time to the 19th Century and ask Michael Faraday this same question. You know the 19th Century, right? When infant mortality was around 30%? When there was no phone system? No solar or nuclear energy plants? When crossing the Atlantic still took at least 2 weeks? In fact, when the whole world was BELOW the level India is at now.
Ask Michael Faraday--who did much of the work that made the 20th Century possible--what use scientific research is. Actually, someone DID ask him this once. His answer: "What use is a baby?"
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I also realize that this is merely an idea to plan an unmanned mission, but that's what makes my point evern stronger! I mean, Unmanned! geez!! that's such an old idea! I have to wonder why they recently decided to do this and didn't (as far as I know, and I know i'm not an expert at all) try at it before.
Because you need a much larger rocket to lift a manned vehicle. A robot probe can be lighter than a human; dosn't need to eat, drink or breath can be subjected to high accelerations and there is no need to get the vehicle back.
How arrogant to assume that the US is the only company that can make advances in this field!
US is the only company? This aint communism pal, and the US isn't completely run by the corporations yet, so you start off your troll by proving you are bantering.
for every dollar that was invested in NASA, economists have determined that we average about 6 dollars back in benefits from technology advances caused by NASA
Wow, that is a pretty large claim, and yet no link to prove your outrageous claims. I for one claim for every worthless post signal 11 makes, the U.S. economy alone suffers a loss of a million dollars. But I have no link to backup that claim, so it has as much merit as yours.
What's to assume India won't experience the same boost from investing in aerospace?
Maybe because when we were doing it, it was cutting edge, had never been done before and was pioneering. If anyone feels you can make great gains by re-inventing the wheel, then 'we have a serious problem'. Also, India does not have the economic and industrial might the U.S. had post WW2 to drive a mission like this and have it do anything other then bankrupt their struggling economy. It would serve their country far better to invest more in digital technology. I have known many people of indian origin, and also native to that country, who work in the U.S. technology industry. If India were able to harness this resource instead of losing so many talented people to the U.S. based industry, they could boost their economy into becoming a power house on scale with the United States.
At least this time the moderators recognized your troll, and rated it accordingly.
NightHawk
Tyranny =Gov. choosing how much power to give the People.
I'm sure that Brian Walker will be getting a few phone calls asking to buy his technology.
Amazing magic tricks
...will they use nuclear fuel?
i dispute that NASA forced much in the way of technology advances. Mostly it adopted them as they became available. Maybe your thinking of Velcro (actually swiss, i think, from the 1940s) or microwave ovens (an english scientist is credited with heating his lunch at oxford with microwaves in the 50s) and all the rest are mostly hype. Sure NASA poured a tonne of money into development, but technology marched past them long ago. Their lead time on these supermassive projects is so great that they are ten-years behind the times by the time they're launched.. look at the space shuttle
(a) magnotometer ok (b) you really need to land on the moon to be sure (c) you need good altitude and attitude control systems. (Doppler from earth don't work since the far side of the moon is not sighted)
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
Now, with the basic math out of the way, we'll say that we want to get to about 170 miles outside of the earth's orbit. At that point, we'll be at the point where we can simply hand someone an aerosol can and tell them to point it at the earth and the familiar newtonian physics will take over, propelling him, slowly, to the moon.
But how many people would it take to create a human tower 170 miles up? Well, that's exactly 897600 feet up, and assume we use only one person stacked on top of another, that means that it'll take a mere 149,600 people to get to the moon - not bad, considering how many peope live in India! But, unfortunately, those people would collectively weigh about 10179 tons, excluding the bendy-straws. Now, the official world record for two-handed weightlifting by a man is 600 pounds, but there is someone claiming they can lift up to 7063.75 pounds. Alas, this is still less than one hundredth of one percent of the required lifting power.
In short, our psychic weight lifter would be flattened to approximately the thickness of a dorito chip in about half a second. Sorry if this upset anyone trying to get to space...
A moon mission is an excellent cover for a generalized rocket program, which would probably include developing ICBM-type technology.
Think about it.
Excuse me for this off-topic message, but I couldn't resist.
I live in Denmark.
Here we strive to achiece a society in which everyone is secured a minimum standard of living, and guaranteed full health insurance.
It is strange for someone like me, who all his life has lived in this a society to look at a flamingly liberalistic country such as the USA.
It has often been heard that welfare, and social security takes the incitament from people. If you support the weakest members of society you make the members of society weak seems to be the logic behind this argument.
Even though I'll admit that some people will always take advantage of any benifits the society might offer, I still won't accept this as an apology for deserting the weak!
Even in the Land of the Free some people fall to the bottom without it beeing a fault of their own.
This wouldn't have anything to do with being at partial war with Pakistan and in an arms race akin to what the USA and USSR had in the 60s ? Someone said that development moves much quicker behind a war chariot than an ox drawn cart and this may be proof.
For those who doubt that India will be the next superpower this mission is just a way of saying "look out, here we come". The Ghandies carried them a long way from a huge impoverished Farming colony to a much larger country ( population approaching 1 Billion ) of which a rapidly growing number are educated and employable. Sure lots of things suck in India but they are doing very well considering what they have and even the culture is changing.
PS : Do Americans shed tears when they figure out the India is the worlds largest democracy ?
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
I don't question India's capabilities especially in Space technology. Right now theyr the most sought after nation for launching satellites even beating Boeing's rockets by being more cost-effective and structurally sound (remember those rockets that blew off..they were from Boeing). But i question the need.. America got to moon 30 years ago and the whole surface has more or less been mapped. India can make no "significant" contribution to any moon research. I think the answer lies in India's want to be a superpower. Oly two countries have attempted Lunar landings (USA and Russia) and I hear Japan is planning to land something by 2003. Also it may even be a cover up for advancement of rocket technology for ICBM's. May be India is using this Lunar coverage for boosting their defense capabilities.. Possibilities are far reaching if India and ISRO achieve their stated goal in 5 years..the capabilities are there and it doesn't sound outlandish coming from an organization that has produced concrete results in the recent past. regards, sun10384
or your forhead dotted arse is gonna die young.
ready for another joke?
what's four miles long and has an IQ of 2?
the saint patricks day parade!
lmfao - i find this extraordinarily funny...and what's more, i'm about %75 irish. I don't find it offensive because i know it's not true...you should take a lesson from that.
oh..and BTW - not all Irish are drunkards either! it's just that %92 that give the rest of us a bad name!
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Tyranny =Gov. choosing how much power to give the People.
Here, here!
The by-products of space exploration include faster adoption of transistors to replace tubes, which has terrific consequences for the computer sitting on your desktop.
Space exploration and the many engineering disciplines involved have helped to bring us quieter, more fuel-efficient civilian aircraft - through increasing our knowledge of aerodynamics - and have helped us to develop hushkits for noisy jet engines. (But I still feel that anyone who buys a house near an airport and then complains about the noise is about as smart as a bag of hammers.)
Building machines to the incredible limits of durability and machining tolerance that space travel requires has proliferated the use of computer-aided design and manufacturing systems, as well as increasing the precision of overall manufacturing. You can take a look inside a hard disk drive, flip open your VCR or pull the cylinder head off your car engine to see the benefits of this.
And finally, space exploration caused NASA to start calling up chemical companies, looking for a durable, slippery, lightweight and high-temperature plastic. Dupont stepped up to the challenge and invented Teflon.
Apart from making it easier to clean the matted hair and bits of scalp out of the frying pan after you've smacked someone with it, Teflon enriches out lives in countless ways every day, from safer wiring inside high-temperature devices like stoves all the way to engine assembly lubricants that are used for protection before a new engine is started up for the first time.
Space exploration is a boon to mankind, and anyone opposed is invited to give up their computer and all the other wonderful fruits of the research it has helped spawn.
Having said that, I don't like India's motivation here. I don't believe it to be a philanthropic and scientific exploration the way NASA does it; I believe it to be an extension to the current arms race with Pakistan. Now, that was the impetuous behind the space race between USA/USSR during the Cold War, but at least 95% of the population of either country wasn't living in abject poverty at the time. India should examine its motivations and get its affairs in order before it starts spending the huge sums of money on this.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
You tell me.
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For that matter, there is a lot of info out there already, such as this Easy Low-Cost Lunar Explorer student project.
> thats a rather unique comma notation you've got there, buddy.
I'm just reproducing what I've seen in print. It's sensible if you're counting in lakh and crore: 1,23,45,678 would be 1 crore + 23 lakh + 45 thousand + 678.
One of NASA's major criticisms is that the American taxpayers basically pay to do a lot of very interesting but socially useless things when the money could better be spent on helping social programs like welfare and Medicare (whether or not you agree is beyond this argument; the fact that it is a criticism is fairly well known). With ISRO this is even /more/ so. If you think you've seen poverty in the Western world, wait til you see poverty in India, and then realize that there's a lot more of it. India is overpopulated, under-industrialized, in a state of almost constant conflict in Kashmir with Pakistan, and reeling from a set of natural disasters. ISRO would be better off, like the article says, commercializing and, like what the article doesn't say, solicity foreign investment and support for their mission. Unfortunately, their main reason for doing this isn't scientific (which, honestly, a proposal to orbit the moon for several years could actually be quite beneficial to understanding how the moon changes over time), but rather, for Indian pride, just like the nuclear weapons detonations two years ago and just like nearly every other major public undertaking.
A long time ago, the world learned that moon missions were like drinking after a bad day: they hid the problems, but they didn't fix them. We turned away from nuclear proliferation, wasteful manned missions, and 'just for the sake of doing it' public spending and instead focused on understanding and making our own world better. Maybe India needs to get over it's inferiority complex and utilize the vast social and economic resources it has squandered thus far, and think about doing things with the rest of the world that will benefit its people, not its image.
Yep, it looks funny, but that's actually the way Indians write crores and lakhs.
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
OK, ok so s/he made a mistake! You don't have to insult her/him for that.
Oh, this is
tcd004
Here's my Microsoft Parody,where's yours?
First, one reason is to explore the possibility of water in the moon. Didn't NASA just send up the Lunar Prospector at a cost of $63 million, and it discovered water? Yes it did. See the story hereABC News:Theres water on the moon
Another suggested activity, the unexplained levitation of dust in the airless lunar environment. Can you say gravity? Micrometeors make it to the moons surface and spray up dust, and since there is less gravity they appear to float.
One of their strong points is to show that they are on the cutting edge of technology. Is doing something that was done 30 years ago on the edge of technology?
Lets get serious, if they want to prove cutting edge, why not join the effort for the International Space Station?NASA ISS Homepage
Standard I/O Error. Incompetent/Operator.
Is this reminding anyone of the game Civilization? I wonder who's going to get that space colony up and running first.
THAT was funny.
i saw the subject line of your post and i laughed my ass off.
now you're getting it!
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Of course, the space sation is already five years overdue and over budget by a factor of something like ten, without being more than a quarter completed. But the situation with that was politically and technically quite different.
Sure, the superpowers may say 'been there, done that', but one advance this mission might show us (as well as crazy rocket guy's mission) is how to do space travel cheaply and on short notice. If NASA could do missions this cheaply, they could just send up three at a time to boost their success rate. =)
Reliable, cheap, turn-key space travel is what will bring the future here. Like computers: moving from ENIAC to the Vaio laptop.
What did we learn from the moon ? Would it not be better to have an international effort to explore another rock in space -- like Mars ? I know the moon is closer, but do we need to visit again ?
I got my t-shirt at Totally Geek!
"...Sources say the first Indian moon mission is to be sponsored by McDonalds to promote BigMac sales in the nation."
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I was wondering how the rocket-to-moon business is related to the technology used in missiles.
J une.html for some info about a recent ship-launched ballistic missile test).
FYI, missile development is done not by ISRO but by DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organization). DRDO still has problems with some missile projects (See
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/News/00-
And you thought they were pumped when they detonated their very first nuclear bombs (as if they were the first to accomplish this--let alone think it was something to be proud of), wait'll they step onto the moon; holysh*t! They'll think they own the earth.
-={(.Y.)}=-
Thank you for reading One Man's Opinion. No participation necessary. Offer void where deemed by law or PATRIOT Act.
Just like the Russians launch Comrade Gagarin
up to space for "Russian Pride", the Americans
land Mr Armstrong ont he moon for "American Pride"
etc.etc.etc..
If you wait to solve every problem on Earth before trying to do something else out of Earth, you'll be dead with overpopulation in a few decades.
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
I mean, other than for the thrill of finally doing it themselves, and for other various touristic purposes (look, ma, a picture!), why should they bother planning this event? I mean, I know I sound like an opressor, with the whole it's-already-been-done-why-reinvent-the-wheel slide to things, but it does seem a mightly large expenditure of efforts, money, and minds to get this together, unless they can send some of their less-great Engineers to do it (and save the top notchers for other more exciting research), and unless they just happen to have money lying around, and unless there really is a tactical/intellectual advantage here.
I also realize that this is merely an idea to plan an unmanned mission, but that's what makes my point evern stronger! I mean, Unmanned! geez!! that's such an old idea! I have to wonder why they recently decided to do this and didn't (as far as I know, and I know i'm not an expert at all) try at it before. Geezy wheezy! It makes the head spin. What I don't understand is the motivation, and, as many other critics have suggested, the supposed knowledge to be gained from such an endeavor. why not instead shoot for something more than unmanned. yes, yes, I know - if you've never done it before, work your way up. but also, if everyone else has done that, do something they haven't done!
well, enough of my rambling, I'm sure
Insert mind here.
India can go to the moon, Pakistan cannot. If the project succeeds, Indian nationalism wins (in the short-sighted pissing contest of subcontinent international relations), and not scientific research or the incredibly poor people in much of rural India. They want to recreate those moments in 1969, thirty-five years later, and use them to increase their own popularity.
And of course it will work on that level, just as the Mars lander made America so proud just a couple of years ago. But right now the last thing India needs to do is start a space program; maybe imposing some law in places like Punjab and stimulating the economy would be a pair of more intelligent goals for now.
Such a project cannot be successfully opposed by the opposition parties, of course, because not working to "achieve the potential greatness of the nation" can be characterized as subverting the nation.
The region is "messed up" pretty badly (and that's what my Indian friends say) and the fact that the smart Indians are leaving for richer parts of the Commonwealth and the U.S. isn't helping any.
Ah well, at least most of us don't have to live there. Though I'd like to visit.
...for Pakistan to announce a moon program of their own...
:)
Then they will fight over the rights to the moon, then the US will nuke em (cos the US got their first), thus reducing the Earth's population by a sixth.
--- Can i borrow your Clue-Stick(tm)? I need to go beat a few people with it...
I have nothing but praise for Indians. Among my best friends I count a couple from India. Brilliant people, who have been graceful to share with me great food, minds, and culture.
You should have much more humility. Indian culture is thousands of years older than US culture, and far more varied and interesting.
Are you adequate?
i think the problem, addressed by Arthur C Clarke in some huge book once, would be that as they climb there is growing a difference between the orbital speed of the people at the top and the poeple at bottom. So instead they could use one of their geosynchronous sats to lower a rope to hold them..
Despite the valid scientific reasons for sending a probe, it's clear that the real reason they're interested is prestige. India is an aspiring superpower, locked in a 3-way local arms-race with Pakistan and China. Gearing up their space program is one way of showing superiority over the Pakistanis, and keeping up with the Chinese (who are preparing for a manned launch with their Shen Zhou capsule). The science and technological spinoffs are just cream.
As for worries that this is just a cover for missile research, I think they're barking up the wrong tree. If the Indian PSLV can put a 1-ton satellite into 1000km polar orbit, it's perfectly capable of lobbing bombs at Washinton or Beijing. The reason the Indians aren't deploying it as an ICBM is almost certainly because they lack an adequete guidance system, not because they lack a decent booster. Throwing probes at the moon probably won't help the quest to get 500-meter accuracy with a warhead...
Idiot/Savant
"Bangalore, We have a problem"
For starters, it's so much closer than mars by many magnitudes of difficulty; I'm not saying India should be going, but there's much more real exploration that could be done. the apollo missions weren't really about science, they only ever sent one scientist (who paid his way by confirming volcanic material on the surface, as i remember..) Thirty years on, we've got new technologies and sciences that could be put to work. Ultimately, as a base for space exploration it has big advantages over earth where a zero-g environment it not suitable, thanks to its very low-gee and zero atmosphere.. it even keeps one face to the planet for permanent comms. Fabulous place, you should visit.
Yeah, this is so very convenient for you, isn't it?
Suppose we have this situation:
Mexican: Hey, gringo!!!
USian: (pissed) What's the matter with you? Why are you insulting me? I haven't done anything to you!!!
Mexican: Gee, you need to learn to laugh at your own society!!
This is, I think we all would agree, insulting. What is the difference between what happened in this thread and what I put here?
Are you adequate?
Actually, if I launched my ass up the moon right now, and declared it mine, and set up a colony, how would any nation stop me? Bomb the moon? Send up a rival colony? The practicality of anybody/thing owning something that they can barely reach, let alone fight for, like the Moon, is extremely low.
so better you don''t take it too personally :)
If NASA isn't willing to fund more trips to the moon, I'm glad some other government agency is. Perhaps it will renew some interest and we'll hear more talk about colonizing the moon (which is quite possible of course, just expensive), and sending more missions to Mars.
Anyway, I'll be interested to see if they can actually pull it off. Perhaps Pakistan and India will have a space race, now that would be something I'd like to see.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
Actually I thought India did have MTV. They have a McDonalds I hear. I was disappointed when I heard of these things. Living in New York City, I see a lot of Indians, and I'm always glad to see very few of them look like they've given in to our culture. Most other immigrants accept it with open arms. I'm not talking about our idealistic 'Freedom of Speech' and Capitalism, everyone embraces that for the most part. I'm talking about wearing a baseball cap backwards or wearing one pant leg up and blasting music out of their car.
I look up to these people because they are able to accept our ideals (not that US implements them truly or fully) without feeling the need to give up their culture.