Slashdot Mirror
Working Internationally--What Should It Pay?
Knightman asks: "I recently had a discussion with a friend that works with designing hardware. He had been offered a consulting job abroad where he would get $50/hour, which I thought sounded a bit low considering that my company charges double that for me when I do work for a customer and I'm a programmer and not a hardware specialist that a Silicon Valley company wants to hire. After some discussion back and forth we realized that we had no clue whatsoever on what to charge for a job done abroad. So I'm wondering what is the difference between countries when it comes to charging for a job? And are there any online resources where you can compare this?"
It would be interesting to know where exactly he is going to work. Do you know what the cost of living in the country is, typically? While I don't know of any resources, you might find it easier to do some comparisons with your current income/cost of living, the overseas nation, and compare it to other places that you know of. I would also factor in the general pain in the ass of living overseas. :)
NSParadox
Unless mankind redesigns itself
Just my 0.02
Capt. Ron
crazy dynamite monkey
His cost of living is very high. Rent is over $1000 U.S. a month for a hole in the wall. Still, he clears rather a lot.
I'd expect a person to make as much after paying all taxes as he currently is before taxes. Factor in cost-of-living and I think you'll get a reasonable estimate.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
I know abroad that gets $20 for a 'job
My current plan for the next for years is to finish my CS degree, move to Japan and work in some IT capacity while learning the culture and language, then move back to the states and settle down, commanding a nice salary with my 'puter skills and bilingual ability.
I always assumed I'd just find an American company with offices in Japan and go to work for them. I figured they'd put me through an immersion language course to refresh my three semesters of Japanese and off I'd go. Lately, though, I've begun to worry if this is even possible. I never did any research to find out if this sort of thing goes on, I just assumed it did.
Has anyone else done this/is anyone else doing it now? If so, who did you work for? I'd really like to know if my grand plan needs changing, or if not how best to go about getting a job over there, and where to live.
--Brogdon
This tagline is umop apisdn.
One of the main things that you have to consider is the exchange rate of the money. If $50 US is equal to 1000 units of their money and a cheeseburger costs 500 units you aren't doing very well. This is a common problem with American workers going over to XXX (country name deleted so I don't sound biased in any way; I'm not) and working. The American's get paid in dollars and when the worker converts to local currency they have trouble even paying rent.
http://www.WinWithRealEstate.com/
I want to know if working in Sweden it would be possible to get an equivalent standard of living to what I could get in the U.S. doing programming type jobs. I come from the midwest, so I know salaries here are less than in say California, but the Cost of Living is also less, so basically my question is what kind of opportunities are there in Sweden, say with an American company. I know language wouldn't be a serious problem as almost everyone speaks English, and I could probably pick up some Swedish vocabulary and take classes to get proficient.
Nascantur in Admiratione. (Let them be born in Wonder)
First off, it's probably worth noting that what your company charges and what you get paid are two totally different numbers. Secondly, as has been mentioned before, cost of living is a major factor. $50 may not seem like a whole lot in the USA, but that's a week's salary in some countries.
I'm really easy to get along with once you people learn to worship me.
He who fights and runs away,
If you will be living abroad for a while, you have to look at the rate of inflation that you will be dealing with. To figure out if you are adequately compensated, may I suggest this resource of a measurement that accounts for inflation and other forms of currency fluctuation.
The Purchasing Power Parity measurement, or PPP, measures productivity and standard of living while factoring elements such as varying standards of living in different countries. Find out how to calculate it for any country at the above link.
Purchasing power parity (PPP) is a theory which states that exchange rates between currencies are in equilibrium when their purchasing power is the same in each of the two countries. This means that the exchange rate between two countries should equal the ratio of the two countries' price level of a fixed basket of goods and services. When a country's domestic price level is increasing (i.e., a country experiences inflation), that country's exchange rate must depreciated in order to return to PPP.
Unless you are paid in dollars, you will experience the dramatic fluctuations in PPP experienced by native IT workers and for that matter all workers in that country. This is, of course, not the case for those countries whose currencies are pegged to the dollar.
Perhaps, IT workers, due to their crucial role in all global economies, can work to give countries whose currencies are especially unstable a bit more stability. Take the risk, ask to be paid in the native currency, and the company you work for will have an incentive towards building stability in its foreign posts. Also, shoot for more long-term work rather than projects of a few months. It would be a good thing for information technology folks from the West to get some understanding of the perspective of the rest of the world.
Goat sex free since 2001
I can't speak to the salary issues, but I do know that there are tax issues involved in getting paid by a company outside the US.
You need to make sure to set aside cash to pay the accountant to figure everything out.
Your best bet might be having the overseas company pay you through a US job shop. That waay the taxes/social security/etc. are taken care of in a simple way.
-----
nuclear iraq bioweapon encryption cocaine korea terrorist
SAGE, the System Administrators' Guild, has a salary survey that you can have emailed to you. Of course, it only counts salaries of SAs, but it might give a somewhat reasonable idea of how different regions in the world pay technology professionals.
Fuck 'im up, Tim! His views are invalid! -Pirate Corp$
From my experience (your milage may vary),
When working as a regular employee in a software firm in London, Dublin or Paris, expect a 30% cut in pay, compared to LA or San Francisco. Cost of living is on par with San Franciso or NYC, so money after expenses often much less than in the States.
But it is definitely worth it. Seeing the world is more important than cash.
Having said that, with a European passport, and as a independent contractor, there is the opportunity to make a lot of money if one is willing to follow jobs to less prestigious cities. Countries without tech workers will pay a lot to import them. (Belgium, for example.)
This doesn't directly answer the question of how much you ought to charge, however, if you are wondering how much that overseas salary is really worth, (ie: can you live on 50k in japan?), go to a resource like the UNDP's Human Development Report and find out what the purchasing power parity is of their currency relative to yours, then do the math.
I do love how you managed to lump all the other countries in the world into one cohesive unit. Your talents truly are wasted in computing.
Based on the limited information given I cannot answer your question. However, the salary offered is likely to be much higher than what is offered to the natives of the country, even if they are doing the same thing. Combine this with the fact that computing is a high paying area, and your friend should be in one of the higher income brackets.
When this is compared with the Silicon Valley, and the living conditions prevalent there the deal is even sweeter. In fact dependent on the cost of living in the country it may be possible to save a large portion of your income. You can use that to pay for the overpriced house in the desert.
Most first world and western companies have web sites that deal with employment these should have salary information. Failing that the un will have the GDP of every country in the world this should prove a measure for comparison. Bare in mind the cost of living in SJ and similar areas is much higher than that of the average area in america. Consider this when processing this information.
I just love how you called all the countries abroad, with a straight face ! Damn !
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
However, more permanent/Temporary jobs as an american being moved overseas for an american company (ex-patriation) usually include these bonuses....
Hazard Pay.... In india or china, this can amount to sometimes 2x your salary depending on the company. However in mellower countries such australia it could just be an extra grand a year.
Cost of living.... Adjustments to your salary are usually made to compensate higher cost of living in the country you are living in.
Homeleave.... Paid flight back to america (or country of orgin) each year including visits to each of your relatives.
And depending on the company/country you may get other benifits.
oblisk
Having worked both in the UK and now in New Zealand I know from personal exsperience that you can not easily compare remuneration. You have to take into account....
1) What are you happy earning - based on your experience etc. If you are not being paid in your home currency you may find that the exchange rate may help you with this but look at the following points too.
2) Cost of living varies incredibly between countries for example petrol (gasoline to the majority of you) costs three times as much in the UK as it does here in NZ. The cost of a beer varies almost as much. In many cases you pay in Pounds Sterling waht you pay in NZ dollars. I.E if it costs 3 kiwi dollars it will cost 3 pounds too! and yet the exchange rate put the NZ $ at around 0.3 pounds. Obviously things will vary - esp if you are starting out in the US.
3) Does the deal include accomodation and expenses - nice if you can get them!
4)Are there any other benefits included - a lot of overseas contracts include x number of flights home per year - thats a great perk.
5) Of course the reverse of 2 above applies. If you go to a country where the cost of living is cheaper your $50 US goes a lot further. $50 US an hour would equate to over $200,000 p.a. in local currency here in NZ - which is WAY above what most IT personel would dream of! and boy - would it go a long way!
Just some thoughts.
and as always YMMV!
"Linux users never complain about Microsoft. They don't need to!"
We all know that we can make lotsa money if we just accept a crappy job.
..
If you decide on moving/living abroad, just make sure the country/city appeals to you, the company appeals to you, and you're sure you're gonna have a happy life there. Once all these factors are there, money isn't that important.
We all know that we get paid more than enough to survive and make a decent living, those extra $'s on your paycheck may look really nice, but you dont really need them.
just my two cents
D.
salary comparison calculator: note it does not take into account local tax variations, etc. (they've got a page that goes into details on the source material)
http://www.homefair.com/calc/intsalcalc.html
rough conversion weights:
http://www.expatforum.com/Resources/icol.htm
YMMV
You should consider what YOU want more than comparing to grids, does 50$ sounds good enough for you to move out and maybe isolate yourself for x time? Is the project interresting? Are you motivated or you're seeking motivation? (if it's the second, I'd suggest you stop right there)
It's okay to work for money, but the job has to be interresting as well, especially when you move to another country for a while, think also about the social issues, Cost of life in that specific area, also the fact that you'll have no friends or family exept (at first) the people you'll be working with. So if the salary is good, and you like what's being offered, and the extra pay covers the "sacrifice" part, you say hell yeah, if not, you say no.
You can always compare to other people or job titles or whatever, but in the end, I'd personnally take something that is challenging and refreshing from which I'll get a good experience or feel like actually doing something, even if it pays a bit less than that "other job" that has huge bonuses but the job or managers sucks. It's not directly replying to your question but it's other points to consider.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
for a european guy going to work in LA for $70.000 after 2 years work experience, is it a lot of money ? or not what you could expect if you were born in america ? just wondering... :o)
BUGS Crypto project: http://www.bcrypt.com
Dave
I don't think this is correct, here's why. The cost of living in a certain area can be drastically different in another. For example, working in NYC is expensive. It wastes time and money. LOTS of companies compensate the money paid for parking, commuting, etc. in cash because they know the cost of living (and working) in NYC is expensive.
This is reflected around every other aspect of compensation, not just commute.
the situation in the UK pretty much resembles that in the states, complete with higher rates in the metropolis areas (london, manchester) and lower in less technologically-concentrated areas (though these tend to spring up and disappear every now and then, after all, it's a small country!)
:> companies' markup is ludicrous. at one job, in england, several years ago, i was on a paltry $18k, and my time was being charged out at $55/hour.
;)
one thing to note in the article is that in one case you cite what he is getting, in the other, what your company charges for you. i'm sure they don't pay you the same amount
apart from that... the us is (apart from possibly canada) the best place for IT contractors (programmers, specialists, etc, talking among the best of the best here) at the moment, paywise, given the very high contract rates, and the low cost of living - compared to the UK, as an example. over here the rates are in general slightly lower (salaried positions certainly are), and the cost of living substantially higher.
however, there is one distinct advantage to working abroad... if you're with a company who's posting you there from the US, insted of just happening to take a job in another country, they usually pay for your accomodation, and extra bonus per week/month, and keep your regular salary going. so take a 3 month contract, spend your weekends cruising round another country, get rid of your apartment back home and put your stuff into storage... you'll have a blast, get some great experience and make a fortune from it
/Fross
If you're looking at Europe (or anywhere else with astronomical costs for owning and driving a car, etc.), be sure that you can afford it. Better yet, insist that the employer pay for the car inspections, taxes, and fuel. In Germany, fuel prices are over double what they are in the States. Regular, stringent inspections on the cars can result in hefty repair bills. Taxes on cars are no picnic either.
He should be very careful about this - legally he has to at least file a US tax return (assuming he's a US citizen), though he may not actually owe any taxes (there are some credits, see the IRS publications for details). His chances of getting caught are probably pretty low, but it's entirely possible that not filing at all for a couple of years will get him flagged for an audit next time he does file after he returns home.
I'll stay out of the politics of whether it's right or not for the government to tax you when you're working internationally beyond one comment: for a US citizen, even if you're out of the country there are advantages and services that are available to you (at embassies, etc.) because of your citizenship. Taxes pay for those even if you don't use them, the same way taxes pay for your local fire department's services even if you don't use them.
The IRS FAQs for people working internationally are at http://www.irs.gov/tax_edu/faq/faq13.html.
-- fencepost
fencepost
just a little off
They work for the Peace Corps.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
I remember sometime last year when it was noted that, for a brief period of time on the markets, USD 1 = JPY 100 = EUR 1 (or for those unable to translate fiscalese, a buck, a euro-equivalent, and a hundred yen were interchangeable).
This does NOT mean, though, that your euro equivalent, dollar, and hectoyen could buy you the same amount of stuff.
Examples: A 750 mL bottle of a decent wine costs you at least $15 here. You can get wines of same quality for maybe FFr 50 (7 Euros), maybe cheaper.
A computer can be acked in the US for $400. A similar computer will run you an extra 50% or so in some parts of Europe.
These are hack and slash quesses, mind you, but the idea is this: A given amount of money means different things in different places.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
it can be found at here . Unfortunately, they no longer calculate salary for other countries... I'm pretty sure they used to have it... but you can find the equivalent of your current salary in just about any major US metro area.
Living in italy is probably much more expensive and people are really unwilling to pay much for computer programmers or technical job.. as a fres CS graduate (and we do MORE school than the average america CS since we do 5 year minimum of college which quickly grows to 6-7 minimum) the average paycheck after taxes almost never exceeds $1000 / month ..
make a couple of calculation on how much that is per hour and get real about what the situation is abroud
Maybe after 2-3 yers you can get a net income of $1500-$2000 but that would be considered rather good (we are talking about graduated engineers here).
Of course i am taking salary job here.. if you do consultancy and are the entrprenour type with your customers and stuff you can probably earn much more...
(me i ask $28 per hour programming and is considered rather expensive)
I do a lot of work internationally. I do specialized security work (PKI primarily) and the rates that I get in different countries is as follows:
All rates in USD for ease of comparison:
Canada: 160/hr
US (oakland, SanFran): 250/hr
UK: 300/hr
Norway: 250/hr
So you can see, it really depends on the company. Plus the rate is slightly higher for Private sector work versus Public Sector (gov't).
In the consulting business, the rate that you charge is really what the client is willing to pay. A general rule of thumb: If the client says "Yes" to your first offer, you left money on the table. If they say "Ouch" you give them the "We really want your business, and will discount it X percent" until they say OK.
The moral: companies differ in what they are willing to pay, and the pay scale is different depending on where you are working.
Hope this sheds some light on the subject!
Big questions:
... and depending on where they are stationed, it might be good to get paid in local currency, since the dollar is goin down the tube.
1) is the employer putting you up, and giving you an food allowance? (my favorite agreement because you show up, work, get enough to live on, and buy toys/vacation with allowance)
2) How long are will they be out of the country? (more than 335 days/tax year, and no taxes to 75k) (might be over a year, not sure)
3) where is the paycheck origiating from? US, taxes come out in US. Out of US, $$ go into account at a small rate per month (less than 10k/transaction (I say month)), and there might be no taxes
-Overall cost of living by city
-Taxi fares
-The Big Mac index. This is useful to find out if a currency is overvalued more than being a cost of living indicator, but it's fun nonetheless.
If you are a US citizen, and work abroad, and stay out of the US for an extended period of time, you don't have to pay Federal taxes. Be careful of state taxes, I know of one couple who left California for Saudi Arabia for 5 years, came back, and CA decided that since they were intending to return, that they owed back taxes and penalties - and the courts upheld this decision. That being said, you would do well to check with an accountant/tax lawyer, and see what kind of tax avoidance you have (avoidance is legal, evasion is not). Having travelled a large portion of the world, I can state that traveling jobs are a wonderful opportunity. If you are flexible, you can have a great time, and make good money too. Just look out for all those governments trying to take your hard earned cash.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4, Scene 2
If he's getting housing provided, and doesn't have to pay U.S. taxes on the $50/hour, it sounds like a great deal. If it's in Tokyo and he has to provide his own food and housing then he should be getting at least $100/hour. Also, there's a huge spread between what companies charge for consultants time and what the consultant actually gets; i.e. when Oracle was billing customers $150/hour for my services, I was only getting about $35/hour.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
-
Contract Programming
- Can Americans find jobs overseas
Also check out foreign job sites. ( www.moster.com.au )That is, consider where your savings will be and how much they're worth after the assignment. If you're going to continue working in that country and retire there, then you only have to examine the situation there. Otherwise you have global comparisons to make.
Even with comparing currencies through updated exchange rates, the real issue to look at here is not how much one would be making directly comparing two salaries from two different countries. Instead, it is much more important to consider the cost of living. Unfortunately, hard data on things like this is hard to come by. One should consider the income and property tax rate as well as the foreign consumer price index which compares the prices of a small number of products meant to represent products as a whole.
Important things to consider if moving into a country that's not in western Europe or United States/Canada is the rate of inflation and economic stability. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to try to find a trusted friend who lives in the country you're considering and find out how his/her expenses differ from your own.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
I don't think there's a single good resource for what you're looking for, but there are some near misses... Here are my recommendations: 1. http://travel.yahoo.com/ -- if you find your country under their "Featured destinations", it will have an "Essentials" link that leads to "Money and Costs". From this you can get a rough estimate of at least meal costs, from which you can extrapolate. 2. http://www.overseasjobs.com has a "Resources" link that has a few items about living overseas. You can also gather a fair estimation of typical salaries by rooting through their job listings. This doesn't necessarily tell you about the cost of living there, but it's a start. 3. http://www.realrates.com also has some salary comparisons; mostly for the US, but some overseas. Again, this isn't exactly cost of living. But they have some other resources at that site that might be useful. 4. Plug in "international AND consulting" into any of the plethora of job search engines and see what companies are offering (and what resume submitters are expecting). Hope this helps.
I object to that article, and to the next reply.
- Cost of food
- Cost of rent
- Cost of furniture, home electronics, clothing
- Cost of transportation
- Tax burdens
By and large, the US is a place where "home electronics" and computers are pretty cheap, as is transportation.That correspondingly results in heightened expectations, most blatantly expressed in the form of the much-maligned SUVs.
Moving to Japan would force massive "lifestyle" changes, as a house of the size typical here in Texas would be unheard of in Tokyo, and it would just not be sensible to drive around in a pickup truck in Tokyo either!
Those two "broad" strokes (house, truck) show that what you'd have in another country might be quite substantially different.
In a city with massive subway system, like Paris, it would be eminently reasonable to not even consider having a car; the standards for fashion, food, and working hours are different enough to make facile measures like "dollars per hour" quite insensible.
A comparison probably has to integrate together a budget for all the "personal economic sectors" listed above. In effect, you have to plan to change your lifestyle, and estimate what the results are liable to be.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- MONEY!!
Dang, people, these questions are utter pushovers.
Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
Its a whole different world once you leave college buddy.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
You might have just asked a lawyer, who will always tell you, "It depends" :-)
It sounds like a foreign company is hoping to get some american talent for cheap. It depends on where the job is, and what the living and working environments are.
There are a bunch of factors to look at, start with taxes.
Americans have to pay taxes (or at least file a return) even if they pay taxes while working in another country. The U.S. is the only country in the world not to have signed the UN treaty on double taxation (ok, count Somalia, Bhutan and a few tiny, recently created countries as exceptions). What this means is if you earn more than about US$60,000 while working overseas in any 12 month period, the US wants your taxes, even though you have to also pay taxes in the country you were living in. The US$60,000 exemption only counts if you have absolutely no income in the US during any calendar year while away overseas, and that includes interest on savings accounts or gains on stock even if you didn't sell and realise a profit. Factor this in. Americans overseas need to charge a lot more to cover the eventual double taxation.
The cost of living varies from country to country. A LOT! Even in Europe. There are websites with indexes for many of the various costs, such as local taxes, rent, meals, food, transportation, etc. The money I earn in Belgium wouldn't carry me very far if I lived in London, but would be great for Poland, Portugal or Tunisia.
The quality of living varies enormously as well. Dublin has a great nightlife, but it closes down way too early. London has great curry but the suckiest and most expensive transportation system. Paris is, well, full of Parisiens, but Americans love it. Roma is full of Italian women. But if you get stuck in Tangiers, Izmir, Kiev, Kinshasa or Ulan Bator, no huge amount of salary will make up for a year or two of hellish or dangerous living.
In Europe, a good freelance hardware consultant, willing to work as a complete independent, pulls in between US$800 and US$1500 per day. (Note, nobody uses hourly rates when contracting, just daily). Independent means just that, the company expects you to show up and work in return for money, and doesn't want to hear about work permits, housing problems, kids, taxes, health insurance, or anything else. So you have to more than double a normal salary to include health insurance, local social charges, your own accountant, rent, car hire, and transportation to the area. Take out 25%-75% income taxes, and you may be left with very little actual income. $50/hour is only $400/day, which is tiny for anyone with a degree and some experience. Check jobserve.com for some going prices around Europe, mostly in England.
If you have any experience as a freelance consultant, you start to think in these terms: There are 20 to 22 work days in a month. Half of all days are eaten up in taxes, social security and an accountant. Subtract a day or three for each flight home. Rent or hotel should not be more than 3 days pay for each month. Local hire car, 2 days pay. At the end each month, you will have 3-7 days pay as your profit. Would you only want to earn US$2,800 for a month of work as a highly paid professional? At least triple your rate.
If the employer wants to make you a regular employee, find out from ex-pats in that country what the working conditions are like. How stable are jobs? If you quit, how much can your employer hold you for? What is typical rent in the area? Are ex-pats regularly cheated by not speaking the local language fluently? Can you be arrested at the airport without a letter from your employer allowing you to leave the country (i.e. Oman, Saudi, Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia). Will your passport be siezed by your employer until the successful end of your contract? Can you legally take your salary out of the country?
Anything the company is offering up front is loaded in their favor and against you. Know exactly what you want, and tell them every condition before even drawing up a contract. And make sure everything is clearly in writing, especially what you have to deliver to ensure a clean end to the contract.
So many questions. At least slashdotters are filling up the forum with lots of things for you to think about. I could go on for hours, but the Guiness is wearing off and bed calls. Give this forum a few days, and then make up a large list of additional research you need to do. Working overseas, especially if you are earning an obscene amount of money, can be very rewarding, and not just financially. Once you start traveling and having fun in many new places, you can never really go back and settle down.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
I own a software/engineering development company in Canada. Most of our work is done internationally and the going rate depends on where you are doing business.
For Instance:
Middle East: $2500-3000 USD per day
India: $400 USD per day
USA: $1000-2000 USD per day
England: $2000-2500 USD per day
Russia: $1000 USD per day (take the money in advance.
etc.
Contracting really has to do with how well your market yourself. I know some really shitty programmers who make a lot of money in foriegn countries. To be honest, I have worked abroad for the travelling experience, not for the money. Leaving home for money -- is a little weak.
-Angreal
I am currently living in the Marshall islands working for Raytheon on a US military base making a little under 30k. However to get that same level of income back in the states I'd need to make at least double that (which I could, if/when I decide to go back). Out here I dont pay taxes, have free room & board. The island is 3 miles long so I dont have or need a car and all the payments, maintnence and insurance that goes along with that. There's also the benifit of being on a small tropical island in the middle of the South Pacific (not like I ever see those benifits due to endless work). Biggest things to look for and worry about is cost of living and quality of life. For me out here the cost of living is pretty much a negative number & quality of life is very good.
Conversely, the typical European tech worker enjoys much better benefits. For example, in Italy it was pretty common to have 4-6 weeks of paid time-off as a new employee.
As a contractor, though, it seems like a lose-lose situation. You'd get half the salary, and none of the benefits.
Sommelier
Where in asia did you live? Japan? I know the Cost of living there is huge compared to the US, but I would imagine that in places like Taiwan or Mainland China would be pretty cheap.
Amber Yuan 2k A.D
"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
These last two years have been spent working for American companies. My salary is probably higher than the industry average. And because I can speak Japanese an English, I have more opportunities made available to me, and I'm sure I have risen higher up the corporate ladder than I would have had I been working at the US HQ.
As for contractors, the ones that I've known who can speak both their native language and the language of the country that they're working in can charge an arm and a leg. But unless you are married to a Japanese and have a spouse visa, you won't be able to take advantage of this, since you can't get a work visa in Japan without having a company in Japan to sponsor you.
In any case, you should earn enough to live on no matter what you do. It's up to you to decide which style fits you best. For me, it is obviously the American company, but I know others who are perfectly happy working in (abusing?) the Japanese environment.
Actually, I used to work in the UK before (tremendous cost of living, by the way) and I decided to move to Japan.
As you say, the resume/interview/hire cycle was impossible with Japanese companies, but for international companies, it is possible to do the recruiting part locally and then get hired abroad. (I also did that when I got my job in the UK since I was studying in the US at this time).
BUT... If you want to work in Japan, unless you are very very lucky, you have to speak Japanese... And among the new language, chopsticks and raw fish, you also have to cope up with Japanese people, which is by far the most interesting.
Concerning the cost of living, yep Tokyo is 'the #1 city' as some smart-ass newspaper declared, but this study has certainly be done by some American newspaper, and I am pretty sure that they meant 'the most expensive city if you live the American way'. Japanese people are used to live in small flats, barely eat meat and eat out a lot, so if you want to setup a barbecue in the garden of your 200 square meters house (which would be a cheap 'experience' in the US), then you are gonna pay a lot for that.
But Tokyo has some great advantages: where else can you buy a cell phone with a digital camera and that plays mp3s?..
Just my two cents...
V.
You passed JLPT level 1? I've lived in Japan 4 years, and it took all the effort I could muster just to pass level 2 last year. My Japanese wife says many Japanese adults would have a hard time passing level 1! And where am I gonna find the time to study all these kanji??
Great climate, speak English, cheap property, beaches, snow, adventure sports... oh, and enough bandwidth so you can AALLLLL be LPBs... IDGNet has a collection of stories What am I worth? questions about skills and experience and what sort of job they would get in NZ. Answered by recruitment firms - we often get employers calling after the story's been published asking for contact details... http://www.idg.net.nz
I am a leaf on the wind
> damn governments insist on
> taxing everybody to death?!!!
Because they can. And when a person can do something to get more money they will.
There's little resistance anymore to excessive taxes so they may as well... rape your arse over a cheesegrater.
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
More important though I think, is that you shouldn't confuse employment with contracting cause the latter (even in Europe) hasn't got any of the benefits metioned above and then $50,- isn't all that much.
The bottomline in consultancy is that you are worth the money that they believe you are worth and this in turn depends on how well you can pretend, how stupid they are and how exclusive your knowledge on the specific area is. Unfortunatly I can't answer either of these questions for you
I think this guy should do a little math to make up his mind...
financial benefits - financial loses - ticket - stay + adventure/fun = {yes,no}
cheers, DaBs
Here's a link to the GovExec.Com versions of the per diem tables. These define the max the IRS will let your company deduct for hotels and other expenses. It's a good indicator of the cost of living.
http://govexec.com/travel/
Our policy is to give normal pay plus some differential (10-20%) for out-of-town work, pay for the hotel and car as a direct expense, and then pay the full M&IE * n_days to cover food and incidentals. It's a matter of handling 2 receipts per month vs. 200. These expenses, plus transportation, are, of course, passed on to the client. If you try to set your base pay to match his local market, he'll just find someone who doesn't eat his lunch on expenses. You're competing in gross.
(True story: I drove from AZ to the East Bay once to take a job with a Brazilian company (it gets wierder). While I was on the road, their CEO added up the numbers. I woke up Monday morning and called to make sure we were still on. He was on a plane to Brazil to shanghai more $20/hr keyboard monkeys. I was back in Phoenix by dinnertime. If I'd known where Hayward was, I'd never have even considered him serious.)
If you're in total control of your own destiny, my advice is to try to get more money out of the next job than you got out of the last, and only backslide if the client proves to you that you're more desperate than he is.
There's no shame in turning down a deal if that makes you happier than taking it.
--Blair
"A penny earned is cooler than one you just made by smelting copper wire."
Second, geekfinder will let you search for jobs in some places abroad. For instance I found a job offer in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada. This job required someone with basic knowledge of NT and computer repairs and all it was for was to manage the companies server backups. The job was quoted as having a salary of CA$75,000 per year. That is somewhere between CA$50,000 and CA$60,000 if memory serves. Also in the Toronto/Mississauga area one can survive comfortably on CA$12,000.
Code softly but carry a big magnet.
I'm working in San Francisco having come here from Canada and the main reason I came here was because I could make a lot more money (double what some of my fellow graduates were making). Probably most other countries will only want to be hiring Americans if they're really specialized, in which case the demand is higher than the supply, so try to get a high rate! (travel is great, but visa issues/cultural adjustment/future uncertainty are all issues that you should be compensated for)
I've done this, and it is worth it. As for how much you are going to get that is going to depend on where you go and the local market.
As for the where question keep in mind that some places Like Asia and much of the interesting bits in Europe are quite expensive, while others are quite cheap. Also if it is somewhere undesirable or dangerous that should be worth extra.
And personaly while I would go abroad again there are a few countries like Suadi Arabia that I would not go to. (Not that they would let me in anyhow)
Erlang Developer and podcaster
I take home, cash in my pocket after tax money, 380,000 Yen ($3250 US) a month with expenses of about 110,000 Yen ($950) permonth with 10 weeks holidays per year Including medical.
How does this stack up?
he would get $50/hour, which I thought sounded a bit low considering that my company charges double that for.
HE'S getting $50/hour. The company is probably charging around $100/125 an hour for his services.
I had a friend who was a surveyor back in the 70s. He got $18/hr, the engineering company sent him out charging $50/hr though. Consulting companies and engineering firms are no different today.
Look at your auto repair bill. Bet you paid around $65/hr for labor. I bet the mechanics are at MOST making $30 an hour. Way it works.
-----
I take home, cash in my pocket after tax money, 380,000 Yen ($3250 US) a month with expenses of about 110,000 Yen ($950) permonth with 10 weeks holidays per year Including medical. How does this stack up? What about others here?
What resources and land? You mean the land that you already bought from them and the resources that have already been spent on services? What do you _think_ the government does with your money? =)
As a founder and owner of a medium sized tech business (outsource and consulting service company), I have done the computation, and I suggest all tech workers do the same. I have to bill my staff out at double or three times their "hourly rate" (i.e.: their salary divided into the number of hours they work) just to break even. That's because on top of all my staff's salaries, I have to pay for rent, taxes (employment and corporate), benefits, hardware, software, connectivity (T1, phone, fax), furniture, security, training (each staff member gets an annual education budget), books, conferences, travel, pop, juice, tea, coffee, beer, ship-it lunches/dinners, t-shirts, monthly movies, quarterly "fun days" out of the office, newspaper deliveries... plus managers to manage all my staff...
Granted, many of these things are "perks" that I do not have to provide. But I do provide these things because employee turn-over is far, far more costly.
Contractors have to get paid at least double their counterparts "hourly salary" because they are self employed, and must pay for most of those things listed above themselves.
I hope you get the gist. At double the hourly salary, I have little to no profit margin. That means the company can't buy the SPS2 it wanted, or easily absorb a slow period (particularly true for service companies).
Cash flow is king. Without a 3 to 4 times multiplier (which is common), most service companies would fail if 2 or 3 of their big clients just held off paying for an extra 30 days).
"Content's a bitch."
Hey --
I just got hired to work in Hong Kong for an investment bank -- they've got lots of cash, and they need good programmers (market interfaces lose a lot of money if they crash). From what I can tell, they'll treat you reasonably well too -- classes, etc. There are dissadvantages to working for one too, but I'd say try it. Check out Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, CSFB, or other bigass banks.
willis.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
If you:
You will be okay!
Blatant Plug: get Japanese dictionary/study soft
I seem to remember that a Silicon Valley highschool teacher earns about four times as much as her equivalent in Finland and still has trouble making ends meet.
US$50 is just about what I make as a freelance technical translator, and I live quite comfortably working just 50 hours a month or less.
Apartment rents in Helsinki are three times as high as in Berlin, but a bit lower than in central London, I think.
To be "living overseas" you must not spend more than 30 days a year in the US. Otherwise you get taxed as a US resident. I lived on Grand Cayman for 3 years and I had to watch my time in the USA very closely as trade shows, corporate shopping, and vacations quickly add up. I managed to keep below both the income and time limits and legaly paid no State or Fedral income tax. However I did pay a stiff import duty to the Cayman Customs.
The truth shall set you free!
Yeah gotta agree there. I'm a born and bred New Zealander, and many of my friends have buggered off to USA and UK to make megabucks - and they do: $1 of mine only buys $0.45 (USA) or $0.30 (UK)!! But then again they gotta contend with shit like smelly, dirty, cold London; or worrying about being shot and contending with an arsewipe president in USA ;-)
My $0.02 (or $0.01 in your dollars).
B.
gadgetophile.com
While it's only for the US (that I can see) Salary.com is a pretty useful site.
We'll see just how helpful it is tomorrow, I'm asking for a raise...
live in australia, and work for uk. The money is worth more, and i have to pay less taxes, and the cost of living is less. Sweet. Dual citizenship rocks :D
Also, in addition to the costs Christopher lists, leave room for corruption. A portal company in a certain second-world country stiffed me for 7% of my invoice. They just refused to pay it. I, being a foreign national in a country where I do not speak the language, was without recourse. I'm glad that I got what I got.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Chris
What you can charge for a job depends on a lot of things. First off, you're probably not going to get a lot more than native people, so you should check the average level of salary for a given function in a given country before you leave. I don't know about other countries but in this little country there's a site to reliably check what you could ask for: Intermediair. I don't think it will be of any use for most of you, as it is in Dutch, but I included it anyway. Furthermore, it's interesting to see what the cost of living in a particular country are. You could whine about a salary of only $10/hour, but if your rent is only $50 a month, who cares? But maybe most important is whether or not you like working (and living) in that country. If my company would offer me a job in Germany, for example, they sure would have to raise my salary bigtime, but I would do fine with my current salary in France (Entschuldigung, just my personal taste, no flamebait)...
Woefdram, l'apprenti sorcier
When you factor in surprise costs like having to change your wardrobe because Euros only wear black, strange service charges for things you didn't want to buy (entry visa for work permit) etc. suddenly the margin of savings becomes even slimmer. In fact, I'm actually deep in debt because of this lousy job. It is possible to be severely screwed by one's desire to live outside the U-S-S-A... So, on the one hand, I'm essentially PAYING to have this job. On the other hand, the USA blows (and by the way you're all a bunch of idiots for electing Bush, as any European will quickly remind you).
I don't think it's so bad to be underpaid for the opportunity to live and work in a foreign country, which isn't that easy to come by... but, before taking any overseas job you might want to set a minimum rate for how low you will go. In a place like Switzerland, poor pay can make for some very uncomfortable circumstances (don't get me started).
In fact, someone would have to be crazy to take this job. What the hell was I thinking! ...Arrividerci.
Go to http://www.Jobserve.co.uk.
You'll get a very good idea of the going rates in many different countries.
-- "To ask a question is to show ignorance; Not to ask a question means you'll remain ignorant."
The thing about working abroad is that since you're not in your country, you don't pay taxes. At least, that's the way it works in canada (Down with canada, Free Quebec). On top of that, you get all kind of tax free paid expense. So usually, you charge the same amount plus all expense. But be carefull, be shure to get cash up front before going there. I saw people paying their plane ticket and hotel and the project got cancelled so they never got reimburse.
"Failure is not an option, it come bundled with the software"
The "standard" contractor rate in the UK is 40GBP/hr as an embedded software engineer. I do know people receiving +/- 10GBP around that, and have been told that it may be possible to go higher if you are really good. If you work "in the city" for a financial house, you can expect greater remuneration - the figure I have quoted is for engineering product development work.
Having said that. I have worked in an engineering consultancy where our chargout rate started at 80GBP/hr, rising to 118GBP/hr and more. We did not receive this as employees, because our billability was not 100% - and for larger jobs we would apply a discount rate - so rates would depend upon the nature of the work and the contract agreed upon.
Cost of living in the UK is high. A direct exchange rate comparison will not work well. I am amazed at how many british people survive on a meagre income, it astounds me - many british people and press wonder about "who is taking the cut in the middle", and it is something of a national economic mystery.
-- Matthew - matthew.gream@pobox.com, http://matthewgream.net
There's nothing dangerous about UB, no more than any other large city.
Ulan is just a big, sprawling, concrete metropolis, a strange mix of ancient, old, and depressingly new architecture and cultures. There isn't much to do there except drink, or wait in huge traffic tailbacks which can take days to clear up. The pollution can be horrific, and I still have the impression of greyness everywhere. I couldn't imagine spending 6 months or a year there, even with travelling around the countryside (which is very beautiful, with huge wide open spaces) to break the monotony. The only upside is the number of incredibly beautiful young women willing to do anything to snag a foreigner in the hopes of a better life, and that gets tiring after about a week.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Tax can vary from country to country, and you get a lot more benefits by being a direct employee. The Netherlands, for example, has crap for salaries and unless you're lucky you'll get screwed on the housing, but there's also a tax exemption which'll lower your overall tax to about 20%.
Keep the US taxman happy, but don't give him any reason to come looking at you. Some IRS requirements are contradicted by international tax treaties, so get someone to give an expert opinion and write it down.
Europe is starving for tech help right now, and there's only so much that keyboard monkeys in Brazil can do. (For example, I know a couple of guys how are importing all of their tech talent & getting visas because it's a commonly known fact that there's nobody in the EU.) Germany is offering fast-track work permits, you probably don't need an entry permit for the UK, The Netherlands actually allows you to come and start work (wink, wink) if the paperwork has been started for you by the company, etc. DO YOUR RESEARCH WELL, and don't believe ANYTHING that the different consulates tell you. They're only there to process paperwork.
Five to six weeks vacation, plus sick days, is nothing to sneeze at.
Low points can be the absolute necessity of learning local, miserable expats, a flailing Euro, unending bureaucracy and locals trying to take advantage of you as you may not be familiar with the prevailiing "way of doing things" in any given locale.
Podej mi tento talir s koblihama....
You state that Malaysia bars your exit if you do not have a letter from your employer. This is as far removed from the truth as possible.
Expats with valid work permits can walk in and out of the country at will, and many of them do as a lot of MNCs have regional headquarters in Kuala Lumpur.
In fact, for infotech and software professionals working for Multimedia Super Corridor companies, it has become so much easier and less of a bureaucratic hassle to get a work permit. The understanding that free flow of talent into the country is essential to its future progress is ingrained in the national psyche.
On the other hand, they are not eligible for medicare until they have lived in one province for six months. Money for medicare comes largely from sales taxes. The government figures that if they aren't buying things, they shouldn't be eligible.
By the way, Credit it given for income taxes paid in the country of residence.
------------------------------
You're comparing your company's rate that they charge customers to his potential pay rate. The charging rate is almost always going to be higher than the pay rate, so you may be comparing apples and oranges...
Salary.com
Gives you salaries by state, including Puerto RIco (where I live) on a variety of tech and non-tech job. Although it doesn't feature international salaries (that I remember); it should give you a good idea of what you may ask for.
OBS
I wish I could filter out the annoying Pickens articles...
Backwoods USA low rates, low cost of living , medium taxes , nice lifestyle.
Metroploiton USA med rates, low cost of living, med taxes . phrenetic lifestyle.
London, England med rates, high taxes, high cost of living , cool lifestyle
Rest of UK, low rates, high taxes, med cost of living, dullsville.
Most European cities, high rates, high taxes, high cost of living , food and culture heaven.
Switzerland (I live here) very high rates, low taxes, very high cost of living, wierd but wonderful lifestyle.
(( Its conservative but dope is legal, foods not so hot but you can ski every weekend dec - april ))
Arab countries: rates high, taxes none, cost of living low (if somebody else picks up your accomidation!) , lifestyle wierd.
Singapore, Hong Kong etc: rates high, taxes low, cost of living is cheap but accomodation is not -- watch out , lifestyle sounds great!
The main gotcha about working a long way from home is to find out about the cost and availability of apartments, this will be your major expense and finding apartments in european cities can be a real grind. Also watch out for taxes, try to negotiate a deal that is tax efficient, depending on how the deal is structured you could be really well of or poor on the same basic rate.
Old COBOL programmers never die. They just code in C.
Having lived in Japan for 8 years, and worked at a Systems' Integrator, ISP, a couple of startups and (from next Monday) a major US company, I have the following observations:
(a) Rates here are higher than anywhere else for a comparable level of skill, though the Bay Area may be comparable.
(b) Comparing notes with a buddy of mine who hacks for Veritas in Florida, we discovered that cost of living here was approximately the same as there, since there are many things that you do without (e.g., a car, serious space).
(c) 50 bucks an hour could be a reasonable rate, or could be completely awful in this market. I would lean towards the latter, particularly if there is extensive experience in software design or experience in mobile.
(d) Language matters, and it is tough without speaking Japanese (many positions allow you to read only minimally), but it is not impossible to learn.
(e) If your employer sends you from the US, see if you can get housing and tax preparation paid for as part of your contract. Those should be no-brainers, while trips back may be a bit more challenging to get.
(f) If in mobile, come now--best place in the world.
Good luck!
I love it.
But I assure you that Taipei is not cheap. The real estate market is insane. My wife, who is a local, and I just got back from a little vacation at a house her family owns. This place isn't huge and it's all brick/concrete, no heating etc and they bought it for US$450K. That's not even in Taipei.
You can get fairly decent deals on rent if you shop around enough, but I think it's comparable to the Bay Area within the core of Taipei which means that it's only decent in relation to the price of buying a place. You can forget all about buying real estate even in the boonies. Although if you're going to rent in the boonies, you can do very well. Check out Xin Dian if you don't mind the very long bus ride. You can get brand new 2 bedroom 30th floor apartments built up on the hills over looking Taipei --albeit from quite a distance-- nestled in virgin rain forest for $500 a month.
As for the pay. Well, that's not a good reason to come to Taiwan as far as I'm aware. There's lots of money here, but getting it is no easy task. I had a cousin who sold ATM protocol diagnostic equipment around Asia in the mid 1990's. He made all kinds of money in various Asian markets, but I don't think Taiwan was one of them. He told me at the time that there is a saying that a Shanghai businessman can sell anything to a Canton businessman and the Shanghai businessman always loses out when dealing with the Taiwanese. After all, how do you think these guys stay politically independent from the mainland without even being in the UN? We're talking about serious hustlers. Their military is outdated and they know it, but god can these people bluff.
You recall the scene in Life of Brian where the bazarre dealer won't sell Brian the gourd if he won't haggle? I get that all the time in Taiwan. If you won't haggle it's offensive, especially in the night markets.
Which leads you to the fact that you're not even going to start haggling in the night markets till you get the language down. I love hearing my cousin brag about his French and then reading about all these folks who say Japanese is so tough. They don't even have tones. What's tones? Come on over, you'll pick them up in no time. Hah. But the verbal part of any language could be taught to a parrot. The fun part here is that Taiwan is the only country left that officially and in everyday life uses the traditional Chinese characters which have changed very little for however many thousands of years during which the vast majority of the population was illiterate because the written language was just too tripped out to make time for. Welcome to hell grasshopper. If you're a real glutton for mnemonic torture it's paradise.
And you will eventually cave in to the need for the characters if you want to get around because half the people you speak your perfect Mandarin to will pretend not to understand a word you say. This is not simply because you are a foreigner, but because they insist on speaking Fukien dialect AKA Taiwanese. Now that's fun. It's got three times as many tones as Mandarin, but it's also got all the dirty words and sounds obnoxious so you will inevitably want to study that as well if you want to have a good time. It is cool. I only know a few phrases, but when people speak Taiwanese they tend to get straight to the point and it's fun in that way. You realize these people standing outside of the restaraunts squwaking at the passers by are saying. "Come on in you cool stud you, I can tell you're hungry. We got room for ya right over here." Once you realize that's what's going on around you, you drop all the insecurity and it starts to seem like you're one of the family.
Okay, okay but what about tech jobs? The biggest and easiest one to get into is help files for hardware. You can find that kind of work pretty easy in one of the science parks like the big one in Xin Zhu. The catch is that when you break it down, they're not really making that much more than English teachers, if they're even making that much. English teaching, even tutoring, commands $20 an hour just about anywhere you go and it can go higher. So, the people who take these entry tech writing positions are generally those who just can't bear the notion of teaching, but as far as I know, it's not a better paying field. I've freelanced a few jobs and you get what you bargained for. Good luck with those negotiating skills. Just like anywhere, you'll probably get more money if you're very pushy although you might get less work overall.
I did web design for a NIC manufacturer at one point and I got consistantly bad pay deals because I just didn't feel like stickin it to the man but it was an interesting glimpse into the inner workings of a local hardware manufacturer. All the device driver guys were locals and they were uber geeks at least from the looks of their coke bottle glasses and distorted limbs. They had them behind glass like some museum piece. I don't think you'd get into that menagere without a killer language ability in addition to whatever tech skills they were using.
I assume most of the monitor and mother board places are not all that different from that place although I'm sure someone else would be happy to disagree.
I've always heard the best way to go is to get a job in the States that brings you over here and gives you expat priveledges. Personally, I think the important thing is to be in a place where you feel welcomed. Taiwan will always be that place to those who take the time to appreciate the language.
I'm Irish and now living in the US, but have previously worked in France (Paris, 1 yr), Germany (Munich and Frankfurt, 4 yrs) and The Netherlands (Haarlem / Amsterdam, 2 yrs), so I can supply you with salary guesstimates. I worked both on contract and as a perm. employee. Rates are generally consistent in the western European countries, cost of living isn't. All are horribly expensive compared to the US, demand more taxes and SSI deductions, but hourly rates (for contract only, not permanent) are roughly the same if not higher in places. Cars, houses and consumer electronics all cost much more in the EU than they do in the US. On the other hand, you have much greater protection from unfair dismissal, there is no such thing as employment "at will", healthcare is cheap and excellent, public transport is cheap and efficient, the cities are generally much cleaner and safer (Dublin is still a litter-strewn, messy, congested dump, yet great fun). For a contract gig you should be getting somewhere between US$40 - $130/hr. depending on skillset, location and local demand. BTW, the Dutch gives special lower tax rates to foreigners with particular skillsets (s/w, h/w) to entice them to Holland. Give us particulars! Your question is very vague. Tne countries outside the US are not one great big homogenous mass. Be specific.
Lots of other people have good point, but seem to be forgetting the most important issue: What do you [your friend] want?
If you are married, 4 kids that you love, and a big beliver in family, then you want more then normal amount of money to compensate for the time away from family.
If you are single, no kids, no steady boy/girl, and no house, then you might want to exchange less pay for vacation there.
Basicly if you want to go there, you can look at is as paid transportation to that country. If you don't want to go, then it is a job. (Probably with long hours so you can be done and gone quickly)
http://www.ubs.com/e/index/about/research/pcc/publ ications.html
(See PDFs on bottom of the page.)
It's quite extensive, and answers essential questions like "How long do you have to work to earn a Big Mac?" in different cities around the world.
"Web Users Should Not Engage in Promiscuous Browsing" --CERT
Here are the facts from my point of view, working as a software professional in Mumbai, India.
I started out as a free lancer, and got paid Rs.100
an hour (about $2.15). I wish I could have earned
$50 an hour, but that would have left my employer
bankrupt.
The private sector pays anywhere between Rs10000 to Rs30000 per month
which works out to about $215 to $650 per month (yes, those are hundreds, not thousands).
In the government sector, the pay is fixed and one gets regular increments. The base salary is Rs8275, with allowances, it goes to around Rs.13000. Thats under $300 per month.
As far as taxes go, it varies from 10% to 30%, though, at this rate of income, I'd probably have to pay nearer to 30%
Transport: Travelling by train is easy, if you're a seasoned traveller. It costs something like Rs.8 ($0.17) (per day if one gets a season ticket). (This is the rate on the most common route. Longer routes cost more).
If one prefers to take the bus, it would work out to more than twice that amount, but mainly because there are no season bus tickets. Cabs and autorickshaws (three wheeled, three seaters) are more expensive.
Most companies will pay you a travel allowance though, provided you can prove that you spent what you claim you did.
Some companies also have their own transport that picks you up from pretty close to your home, and drops you back there in the evenings.
Food: Again, compared to other places in the world, food in India is really cheap. A good south Indian dosa would cost between 10 to 14 rupees, while a full lunch (thali) would cost about Rs.21-25.
Oh, and London doesn't have good curries, Mumbai does.
Healthcare: We Indians don't fall ill. And if by chance, someone does cast a black eye on you, grandma has her home remedies ready.
If you do go to a doc, it really depends on whether he caters to the rich or the poor. Prices fluctuate wildy. Of course, if you took your daily Chyawanprash, you'd never need to see a doctor.
Living: Depends on where you want to live. If you work for the government, they'll provide accommodation. Some private companies do too. I can't talk about the cost of living, because I've always lived at home. Still, the general rule is that South Mumbai is expensive, while the Northern suburbs are cheaper. Note: No matter where you live, it's easier to get to work if you work in the north... you don't need to hang out of the train.
All together, I'd say we Indians get a better deal coming to work in the US, than an American would get if he were to come work in India.
Do not underestimate the value of print statements for debugging.
lots of daylight
Is that really so? I thought that Sweden was a quite dark place.
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Oh, and London doesn't have good curries, Mumbai does.
:-)
Curse you! Now Mumbai is on my list of places I have to visit in my lifetime.
Its true, London itself doesn't have good curries, and Brick Lane only rates a so-so. Bradford has good curries, far better than the dodgy Bangladeshi food being passed off as Indian in most of London. But now we're splitting hairs.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
You obviously haven't traveled much.
15 or more years ago, hotels in many countries, especially eastern block, were required to hold onto the passports of all foreign travelers. This is so the police could come around every evening and check them out. There are still some countries that require it, but I can't remember having to leave my passport in a hotel in the last 5 years, but many countries still require you to show it on check-in.
In some countries, you cannot receive your work permit until you hand your passport over to your employer. Certainly Oman does this, I've had to leave my passport with the client for the month I was doing work. This is to keep foreign workers from fleeing before the end of their contract. If you don't want the huge amount of money for relatively easy work, then don't hand over your passport.
I've handed my passport over to company representitives so they can run it around the local bureaucracy to get the appropriate visa and work permit stamps. There is a degree of trust in doing that, I'll admit.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
"The only upside is the number of incredibly beautiful young women willing to do anything to snag a foreigner in the hopes of a better life, and that gets tiring after about a week."
[Sarcasm]
Oh you poor thing, you must be exausted!
[/Sarcasm]
Later,
ErikZ
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.