DSL Woes

Covad is in the news this week for unplugging ISPs who didn't pay their bills. Covad, in a partly helpful, partly self-serving gesture, has attempted to get disconnected customers hooked up with other ISPs using Covad's service. Oddly enough, the submissions seem to blame Covad - it looks to me like the ISP was the one to blame, taking subscriber payments but not paying off Covad. Covad's financial situation is best described as precarious, with one-third of all its DSL customers not paying - Covad's trying to throw off the dead-weight. So what's the deal with CLEC ^[?] 's these days? Is there any hope of survival against the incumbent phone companies who will do anything to squash competition?

Comments

Re:Good business technique

[malachid69]

Wouldn't that count as SLAMMING according to the FCC?

Covad is in competition with their customers.

[docwhat]

I would be a bit more critical than Michael. Covad reciently bought BlueStar.net. Covad now competes with DSLnetworks and InternetExpress (among other ISPs). I don't think it's coincidence that they yanked the connections rather abruptly.

Sending email to the end users (not the ISPs that were Covad's customers, but the ISP's customers) reeks of trying to scoop customers for their own partered and owned ISPs.

It all looks rather suspicious to me.

Re:Covad is in competition with their customers.

[zyklone]

It might be so,
But they still had every right to do so since the customers did not pay.

Why should they not do it?

Re:Covad is in competition with their customers.

[gimpysquid]

I would hardly call it abrupt when I read about it in the newspaper (San Diego Union Tribune) several months ago.

Re:Pay?

[Faulty Dreamer]

I won't comment on the sign-up drop and sign-up deal (other than to say that would be a gaint pain in the ass for those of us with something else to do). The problem for some of us on this one would be that we would have to keep on OS around that we don't ever use except for the day you have to take off of work to wait on the moron from @home to show up. At least, in this are, they refuse to let you set up the service yourself. They insist that you have to get their technicians to do it for you, and they also insist that you absolutely have to have Microsoft Windows in order to use their service. Now, I can make Linux or FreeBSD work fine with it (at a friend's house, I refuse to support @home myself because of thier absolutely abysmal customer service), but they will literally hang up on you if you try to talk them into letting you use one of those operating systems. In fact, the last time I called in they said, "Linux will not work with our service." I said, "Yes it will, I have a friend using it." They said, "We do not support renegade operating systems. Your friend is in violation of our policy and if we find out who it is his service agreement will be terminated." *CLICK*. Nice pleasant customer service people.

Anyway, even if I had a windows machine ready to go (which I don't at my own home, and I won't install just to get the sometimes up @home service installed) the fact that they need to come and snoop around your system before they will install the service just sucks ass totally. Maybe it's different in other places, but I don't really like the idea of being told I'm too stupid to hook something up to my computer. Maybe some people don't like doing it themselves, but I do.

But maybe I'm just a hard-ass. *SHRUG*

Emails about the whole ordeal.

[TheFlu]

I've taken the liberty of compiling the emails that were sent to me from the President of Internet Express (one of the companies who was reselling Covad service). Click to read all of the emails from the month of December .

Purveyors of fine baked Penguin. The Linux Pimp

Re:Looking for a new DSL provider?

[Some Dumbass...]

I suspect part of the trick is that they were a dial-up ISP before being a DSL provider. So they probably have both a loyal customer base (dial-up upgraders) and more customer service/technical experience than most others.

The whole Internet Protocol is equally hokey.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Excuse me? This is high tech? I'm supposed to rely my web business on "try it to see if it works" networking technology?

Sure.

After all, you "rely" your web business on the internet protocol, which uses "best effort" routing rather than reserved bandwidth.

You throw your packets into the network cloud and hope they don't get dropped before the etherwind blows them to their desitnation. B-)

What's hokey about not knowing if the wire quality is up to snuff until you hook up the equipment and TEST it? Different wires have different amounts of rot and different defects, whether they're cat-3 twisted pair, coax, fiber, or whatever. Modem users have been dealing with line quality issues since there were modems, and phone users ditto since there were phones.

Heck - telegraph users before phones, too, and radio-link users have to deal with trees in the microwave beam and ionosphere disturbance. Ad infinitum.

Communication links are part of the big, noisy, analog, real-world.

So what's a KLUDGE about taking a wire design that was intended to take 4 KHz for miles and about 1.5 MHz for a fraction of that (due to frequency-selective attenuation) and take advantage of DSP technology to design a coding scheme that compensates for the attenuation well enough to get 3 miles out of it at about 1.5 MHz?

Interesting?

[pivo]

Yeah, that's an interesting idea all right. Let's set the clock back to 1998 to make the load on the internet lighter. Save the internet: Don't use it! Just get your mail and get off!

Wait, even better idea: let's go back to 1938 when we only used electricity for light bulbs. That'll save the power companies! Save the power companies: Don't use electricity!!!

Wait! best idea yet! Let's go back to the before we had plumbing. Just crap in a hole!!! Save the water supply: Crap in a hole!!!

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[pivo]

it seems like they're hiring the (mentally) handicapped for their billing department If you want to talk to the mentally handicapped, you should call their tech support department.

Re:It's all related...

[LoonXTall]

For some strange reason, your car analogy reminds me of a certain company from Redmond. The road owner company can work on traffic monitoring technology to help drivers pick the fastest route, but this feature is only found in Microcars....

Re:What else can you do with deadbeats?

[ahknight]

Moderators: Please browse at at least 0. You're missing a highly accurate post. View my parent.
--

Re:oh come on...

[Fistgrrl]

I have thus taken off two days from work in the past month to wait for Ameritech to show up. They don't and aren't required to give an explanation for 48 hours after the missed appointment. They might be more punctual if I was buying service from them, but I'm getting Northpoint service via a reseller.

Re:Pay?

[Faulty Dreamer]

Let's not forget that Microsoft invented computers, not to mention everything to do with them, like networking, the Internet, and business manipulation, er um, sales of computer products. (I know this isn't true, but it is increasingly the attitude in my area. I'm kind of tired of being five years behind the times. South Dakota sucks ass. Oh, and the weather is good too;-)

I realize this is flamebait, I don't care. Everyone needs to blow off some steam at some point. Either that or I'll just lock the door to my office and see if I can cause spontaneous human combustion purely from anger.

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[technos]

Since then, I've been charged for seven months of service that I haven't used because I no longer live where their DSL was available

Are you a moron? Did your mother drop you down the stairs of a fifth floor walk-up? No service, no check. Paying by CC? Call the CC company and tell them that any and all charges from Flashcom are bogus, as the result of a billing mistake, and that you will not pay them for any such charges.

Don't go blaming your own stupidity on Communists.

Re:IP provider or DSL provider?

[jidar]

As a Network Administrator it really burns my ass when I come on Slashdot and read all of these comments about ISP's and what they are doing wrong. Most of you some clue about how this stuff works, but you take that clue and think it means you've got the whole picture, when you don't.

In the case of ISP's reselling DSL service, although it is true that some of the ISP's are just resellers for DSL service from other ISP's, most of these so called 'resellers' are actually just reselling the DSL line to the point of the DSLAM, at that point this virtual circuit still has to make it's way to your ISP of choice (usually by way of Bell's ATM network, which your ISP will have an OC3 to or something like that), and from there it *gasp* actually uses your ISP to get Internet bandwidth.

Changing that service from one ISP to the next is _NOT_ a simple case of just changing who you send your bill to, the network operations people actually have to setup your account, change your virtual circuit to point to them, and whatever else ISP's typically do when taking in new circuits.

Of course you know it alls sitting at home
complaining that "I already got DSL, just change the bill!", already knew that, right?

Re:What else can you do with deadbeats?

[pen]

I've been in contact with two people who work for two different ISPs who deal with Covad. One works for Speakeasy, and the other for a small local "mom n pop" ISP. Both told me the same thing the guy above is telling you. Simply put, Covad sucks. Mod the parent up.

Happy to pay if...

[hairy moose]

I happen to have a Covad-supplied line through a formerly-well-respected regional ISP, and have been pleased with QoS, etc., since the line was installed over a year ago. So I would be happy to pay for the service. Trouble is, I have never, in the last 12 months, received any invoice for this service. Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

I do not know in which billing system I do not exist (Covad's or the ISP's). FWIW, I had a similar experience (no bill for several years for the then-state-of-the-art dialup account) from a now-defunct national ISP. (I keep telling my SO it's just clean living...)

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[AntiBasic]

In the US, we believe in free market systems. Let all the entreprenuers go at it and hopefully the best product (companies) will emerge. Once an oligopoly starts to emerge, government regulatory stuff kicks in usually leveling the playing field. Thus we get to work out most of the kinks before something becomes heavily deployed. Now compare this with the European way: standards from the get-go. Sure there's much greater interopability but if its fubar'd (which is almost always is); everyone gets screwed. Just look at Europe's backing of ISO and ISDN to get a picture.

You obviously have no clue about the PSTN and NANP do you? North American Numbering Plan (NANP) affects not only the United States but also Canucks...er..Canada. The American and Canadian phone system is one in the same (basically). Both use Mu-Law (so does Japan), interconnected primary CO's, area codes, etc. Thus there is nothing fundamentally flawed with the American DSL implementation, we just have more people and a higher demand than Canadians do. Therefore, more can go wrong.

Please leave your Anti-American Canadian bigotry at the door.

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[pod]

I had my DSL line @ about 13k ft and got fairly decent speeds (~900 down/1.5 up), but the line was dropping a lot. The line wasn't even supposed to be installed it was so far away from the CO, but went ahead anyways. Eventually I got converted to MVL, which is more stable at large distances, it's symmatric but only 768k each way. Later I moved and now I'm getting 3.5M down/1.5M up, which is not nearly the top limit for regular DSL anyways... a co-worker is getting around 7M down @ less than 1000 feet distance.

So there are different DSL technologies (like MVL) that will go longer distances at the cost of some speed.

Re:Pay?

[RedGuard]

Unfairly or not the reason they don't support
Linux or *BSD is because users of these OSes
are more likely to run servers which take up a
lot of bandwidth.

Imagine...

[sporty]

... if the slashdot connection poll were live and you could change your vote. That sudden drop in dsl usage ;>

---

Re:oh come on...

[Anonymous Coward]

Face some facts: Number of error free DSL installations when ISP is the same as local Bell carrier : 93% Number of error free DSL installations when ISP differs from local Bell carrier: 16% These numbers are before the FCC right now and investigations are underway into the Bell's attempts to destroy the three major DSL companies. Why do you think Verizon dropped their long distance application in New England?

Re:Not anymore... ADSL up to 55,000 ft nowaday

[ldvl]

And yet, Verizon will still not provision any DSL circuit beyond 18,000 feet.

So "GoLong" "GetsScrewed"

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[__aasmho4525]

i'm also in columbus and must concur, the service is generally good.

HOWEVER

in the last few months, their deplorable peering agreements have started to rear their ugly heads...

has anyone else noticed that their peering through AT&T is absolutely terrible?

randomly at least 3 times a day at&t's infrastructure starts black-hole'ing packets...

don't know why, and unfortunately, most AS'es i'm trying to route packets through choose at&t (and twc drops source-routed frames... :)

cheers.

Peter

Covad ISP?

[Professor Haptic]

Why doesn't Covad just start their own ISP and trasfer the stranded folks over? Maybe they have a prior non-compete agreements with their ISPs. Does anybody know?

Re:Covad ISP?

[the unbeliever]

Covad.net is covad's ISP. It's also the only DSL only ISP that can be profitable, since they charge approx. $75/mo for 144k IDSL service. ADSL is probably cheaper, but I can't get it anyway. Funny thing is, when bazillion went under, Covad.net was the only other ISP in my area, other than Speakeasy (the ubiquitous Covad partner)

the unbeliever
aim:dasubergeek99
yahoo!:blackrose91
ICQ:1741281

Re:Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[FolkWolf]

Having done this for over a year. It's not as cheap as you think. Even though the cost of the wire is cheap, you still have to run bandwidth that you're probably buying for up to $500/MB on a 10Meg circuit. Plus there's the cost of finding and renting space next to the CO (the only way to get a fairly good coverage area. Plus running some kind of circuit to your real office, plus the cost of the equipment, plus, plus, plus. The main advantage of this seems to be slightly more reliable service, since you're running everything yourself, and only depend on the ILEC for running unloaded, uninterrupted copper (which they're notoriously bad at)

Re:DSL should go away anyway

[maastrictian]

The internet wasn't designed with the expectation of every single end user having a 1.5mbit connection.

The internet wasn't designed for anyone other than the military and universities. I'm glad that its been able to change to keep up with events.

In addition, few ISPs actually have the bandwidth necessary to fully support all the bandwidth their customers are paying for.

True. Fortuantely users (the vast majority at least) are not paying to have full access all the time, they are paying to have very quick access perhaps 1% of the time.

Re:oh come on...

[linky]

To a certain degree, yes.

A friend used to work in the DSL department of a local ISP. He'd often bitch about business they were losing because PacBell would drag its heels delivering the physical lines. Customers would tire of waiting after a month or two of missed appointments (often by PacBell, but occasionally Covad,) and cancel their order. Apparently, a cancellation at that stage still requires some payment to Covad from the ISP. The ISP likely doesn't have the funds since the cancelled customer refused to pay. (Go figure, it's not like they received any services, just inconvenience.)

So why is Covad still demanding payment in this situation? Are they being greedy? Are the ILECs demanding payment from Covad for canceled physical lines they never delivered in the first place? I could believe both, but I'd be curious to learn where the truth lies...

--

Covad is partly to blame

[tupshin]

Lucent contracted with DSL networks to provide DSL lines for their employees that were tunneled directly into the Lucent firewall. Covad de-activated all of these lines since DSL networks was one of the companies behind in paying them.

If I were Lucent, I would be pissed that Covad never contacted them before disconnecting these lines. This is not a way to treat a large corporate customer if you want repeat business.

Re:This "feet from the office" thing seems hokey.

[imagi]

So what do you think a T1 runs off? It's 26 gauge twisted pair too.

My DSL trouble

[rattid]

I hope this isn't too offtopic, but I've had a lot of DSL woes with covad in the past month.

Since may of last year I had ADSL with Ameritech. It was 768/128. It worked fine. No lag, zero PL in games. And DLing was fast. But then I saw speakeasy over at think geek offering 1.1/1.1 SDSL from covad. Oh man I was pysched. 1.1 upstream and almost no TOS restrictions (they allow you to do almost anything except run an IRC server, or a bussiness website). So I cancelled my ADSL with Ameritech (with a $100 penalty.. doh) and signed up with them; speakeasy said they had to have the line shutoff to work on it. fine. 2 Weeks later covad came out to run/test the line. Then...

"We're sorry, you are too far out of the loop, your SDSL order is technically unfeasable. We suggest our 144/144 (kilo-bits here) IDSL for $80 a month".

Well crap. I dont want to pay twice as much as I was paying with Ameritech for half the speed. So I came crawling back to Ameritech. But...

"We're sorry, ADSL is not available in your area. You have been added to a list and will be informed when it becomes available." BTW- my friend across the street has Ameritech ADSL.

So that's my story. I guess I got greedy. Ameritech is sending out a technician to see what the problem is (another 3 weeks). I tried talking with the sales represenitive, but it's no use. They can't help me. I asked speakeasy what they thought and they said the ADSL should have never been installed in the first play, and would have probably blown up (thats the word they used) within the next 6 months.

So 2 days ago I called @home and am having that installed tomorrow. For $27 a month for the first 3 months. If only I could get that uncapped....

Re:My DSL trouble

[WildHunter]

OT but relevent to your situation.
I've had absolutely nothing but bad luck with Ameritech. They screwed me six ways to sunday and I could really do nothing about it. Story is this, they were contracted to provide DSL to one of our buisness locations in Michigan, I'm in Minnesota. I called them and asked when it would be installed, I was told absolutely positively that it would be in by date X. I flew to Michigan to setup the office and sure enough on date X it was still not installed. They said ok we'll do it on date X+4 so I stayed out there (much to the delight of the airline which I paid $100 change fee to not to mention hotel meals etc) on date x+4 they came out and installed the line, but it WASN"T LIVE! Long story short, I went home and they finally made it live on date X+60. Meanwhile the guys in that office were stuck with 2 computers on a 28.8 dial up. Bottom line Ameritech sucks so for the love of god avoid them at all costs!

Re:Looking for a new DSL provider?

[bpd1069]

CapuNet is by far the best DSL ISP in the MD/DC/VA area period. They didn't take the low road and give away the service to get subscribers, they earned each one with a great product and have some competent people working for them who inturn work with Covad to get problems solved. Even at 4am!

Anyone looking for DSL should avoid the large national carriers, should avoid the ILECS like the plague (with the exception of may one or two, can't remember them right off the bat), and support a smaller ISP that has been around for a while before the broadband hype.

Check their reviews, and sign up.

The DSL isn't as hard to get as it was say 3 years ago, when I first got it with BellAtlantic. Its much more prevelent and now that the first round of shake outs has begun, you can expect the situation to improve even more.

And for those that live in an area where your entire community is having problems getting broadband, check you this link Lariat.org. They put together their own wireless/wired broadband network for their community, all non-profit-like. 5$/mth for dialup, 20-30$/mth for 10MB/s wireless and for businesses T1/SDSL for 125$/mth... gotta admire love it...

Re:le clue needed for you

[ahknight]

Actually I had Covad DSL at one point and worked for an ISP in tech support in that same timeframe, so I can vouch for that poster, however someone I know tried getting IDSL from them and it took then two months to get it going and then one month after it started they broke it (later discovered) and it took then two weeks to fix it.

I have more horror stories, if you like, but there is a common misconception that the ISP actually has any control with this. All the ISP does is place the order and be the recipient of your traffic. The DSL provider (I/CLEC) does EVERYTHING else.

BTW: It is not a logical statement to say that just because you had no problems that if anyone else has problems it's their fault. There are successful installs. There are unsuccessful installs. There are horror stories. The horror stories are 99% the LECs fault.
--

Re:DSL should go away anyway

[bpd1069]

TROLL!

Re:Looking for a new DSL provider?

[Ranger Rick]

Damn you! Stop saying how good they are! Their tech guys know what they're doing, but SpeakEasy is so slammed that it can take hours (yes, plural!) to get through to them. Don't you realize that by telling people how good their connections are, you're making things worse! :)

I've got SpeakEasy, and recently had a problem. It wasn't SpeakEasy's problem (SE has been WONDERFUL, I just wish *they* didn't have to fuck with Covad and Bell South, neither of which could find their ass with both hands and a mirror.)

Whoever installed the POTS wiring in my apartment originally had f**ked up and crossed the wiring for the 2nd line with the neighbor's phone wiring. Someone new moved in next door, and apparently he got a 2nd line for dialing the net, 'cause my connection would drop in the evenings when he dialed in.

So, I call SpeakEasy, who calls Covad. Covad tests it and finds there's a short (my DSL is connected to the 2nd line, not out-of-band on the existing phone line like most of their installs are nowadays). The Covad guy says "talk to Bell South, we can't touch your lines." Fair enough, I know there's all kinds of ugly rules about who gets to touch what.

A Bell South "representative" (and I mean that term loosely) comes out, and DISCONNECTS THE 2ND LINE. "Well, you don't have phone service for a second line, so we have no obligation of fixing Covad's problem. Talk to your DSL provider." Keep in mind Bell South offers DSL in my area as well. Coincidence? I think Not.

Because of Covad being backed up, there's no way I'll get someone out to get the line switched over. I call the SpeakEasy tech support and get a great tech that confirms that, and says "You'll have better luck canceling service and subscribing new." Shit. 6-8 weeks with things down. Then the SpeakEasy guy suggests I may be able to get it fixed by having my apartment people bring in an electrician and just fix it themselves. So the electrician comes and says he can't touch it, calls Bell South and has them send a guy out.

Guess what? He actually FIXES the wiring, and then when I said I assume they're gonna charge me, he says "Oh, no, since the fault was in the wiring it's our responsibility to fix it." Well no shit, Sherlock, too bad the last guy didn't think so and just unhooked it instead. You gonna pay half of my bill for the two weeks my DSL was randomly going out when the neighbor dialed, and the 5 days it was down?

Everything's working now, but I pray to god that I never have a problem again, SpeakEasy's suggestion got me on track to actually get the damn thing fixed in a couple of days, but if I have to deal with Covad or Bell South again, I swear I'll throttle the next one that comes through my door.

1st Law Of Networking: Loose ends are bad, termination is good.

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[Insane One]

Cable is not always the solution, here is the Akron area of ohio (an hour south of cleveland) the cable speeds in places really suck bad. My friend gets anywhere between 20k to 70k on transfers. He was excited the one day and emailed me saying he actually d/l'd something at 109k, the first time in a year or more. Another friend about 40 mins from him in another city gets over 300k most of the time. This all has to do with how many people in your area have the cable modems. This can be all solved if TWC would get more bandwidth but TWC isn't that smart, hell they merged with AOL. I had a cable modem for a month (it was a free trial). It started out pretty fast, pushing 200k but by the end of the month I was down to 45k. Conspiracy maybe? Who knows. I am just going to stick with my 128k isdn, dsl is far away from me (23,000 something ft). Besides with my isdn I have the ability to run servers and I like that. TWC doesn't let you at least they don't here.

Re:Does anyone else find it odd

[ScuzzMonkey]

Kilo is not metric; it just means 'thousand.' You can put it in front of all kinds of stuff--kilowatt, kilovolt, kilobyte, etc.

Stuff based on meters is metric.

Re:The @Home Tech Support People Snoop, etc

[Faulty Dreamer]

That's the usual reaction when a Windows box isn't picking up it's net connection properly. Most techs will just start removing protocols and expect it to work. Whether it does or not, they will never assume that the error could be with their network. That's one of the reasons I like to take care of my own systems (and refused to deal with the @home bullshit). I won't use Windows (which I was told is the only supported operating system by Midcontinet@home) and I won't put up with some idiot destroying my computer's settings just because he thinks he knows what he's doing.

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[djhankb]

Wow, I'm sorry, I'm in Coumbus, and TWC is great! I have a 1.8 mb connection at all times... I figured they were great in all areas, but that sucks.

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only Canada, but big parts of Europe make the US seem like it's stuck in time. Where I live, I can choose between cable, various DSL flavours, WLAN (1 mbit) or plain ethernet connctions (who needs ISP's ? ;) from Universities (they sell it to non-students, but not all houses have fiber [yet]). While the various US companies are struggling and back stabbing each other to provide sub-par "broadband", the Swedish goverment is laying down thousands of tons of fiber to have every household in the country wired, cheap. Bandwith is now a basic infrastructure like water or electricity, you don't build a house without it and old houses are retro-fitted.

It's like the mobile market, the US is so far behind, and the about the only country IN THE WORLD where I can't use my GSM phone! I mean, I recently visited Yugoslavia, and they have some serious problems over there, but at least my phone works and my number doesn't change. China? No problem. US? Serious case of Not Invented Here syndrome.

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[djhankb]

dude, the server thing.. I've run a server ever since i got road-runner... http://www.summerof98.com/ oh well..

Re:Pay?

[TandyMasterControl]

In the era where anyone can spend all day downloading stuff from Napster, this is, frankly, bullshit.
Amen to that. I used to think --well maybe... maybe they do have a justification in that Linux users tend to run internet services...But A) that's what AUP/TOS agreements are for, and B) As you point out the universal tolerance of NAPSTER pretty much gives the lie to the idea that they are within rights or that they are just concerned to crack down on servers.

SO what is it? Support?
I have made the acquaitance of Windows networking (or Notworking as it's more aptly known) and I can't believe that ISP / cable company hostility to Linux & BSD stems from the "problem" of supporting clients. I learned basic networking from Linux, and when forced by my ISP to try the same basic DHCP configurations -- I was absolutely STUNNED by how much could go AND DID go wrong on Windows because of Registry bugs. Not too mention the fragmented and opaque Windows configuration dialog-boxes/utilities.
Supporting Linux as a basic networking client is so much simpler and easier I cannot buy the "hard to support Linux, too" argument, anymore than the "Linux users run webservers" arguments. Even less readily in fact. There's nothing to know!
So that leaves what? PHB prejudice and (y'all know it's coming, say it with me) backstairs influence&incentives from Microsoft to keep alt-OSen down and off the Internet as clients.

Re:DSL's cool, the middle men suck.

[jon_c]

hey nathan, you might want to changer your link..

bigfreak doesn't work no mo.

-Jon

Streamripper

Naughty troll! Back in your cage!

[Weasel Boy]

You can call it communism if you like. I call it leveling the playing field so that competition can flourish and more wealth is created. To everything, spin, spin, spin. :-)

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[pod]

This happens with companies large and small for some reason. When I moved to a new place I was paying utilities, but never got any electric bills (which with appliances, washer/drier, microwave, pooter on 24/7, big stereo was something of a blessing). However, exactly 6 months later received a bill for the past 6 months' service, to pay in one big chunk. Well, that hurt.

OTOH, my last web hosting company set up my account, sent me a bill for registering the domain (hey, it was 5 years ago) and insisted I pay it, then let me sit on their servers for 3 years without a single charge. One day they were rebuilding servers or auditing accounts and I got cut off, I guess they just couldn't figure out where to send the bill ;)

Sometimes I have trouble seeing how some companies ever make any money, forgeting to change their customers and all.

I still think the DSL companies are a conspiracy

[11thangel]

For some reason, even though i am only 16000 feet to the office, 2000 feet within the limit, i can't get anything higher than a 384 kb upstream. My neighbor, less than 100 feet away, can get a full 1.5 meg SDSL line from the same company. I'd love to be able to relate to this article, but paying $90 a month for slower access than i should be getting is not as good as paying for free dialup for an infinitely smaller price (nothing).

Re:Comcast @Home

[Faulty Dreamer]

I wonder if Microsoft didn't make some big investment in @home recently. It seems to me that they used to at least tolerate Linux systems being on their network, but now it seems they are more and more apt to tell you that is a violation of your contract and you are hosed. At least, that's what it seems to me.

Maybe there's some under the carpet deal going down, but there is definite hostility in the @home world when you make any mention of an OS other than Microsoft Windows. Even asking about Macintosh got me shut down when talking to Midcontinent, which is suprising because that was even listed as suported on their web page. Oh well. If I spent as much time surfing as I used to it might matter more to me. But I guess dial-up is as good as it's going to get in my area (unless I want to shell out for a T1, yeah, right).

Re:Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[BD55]

Where do you live? Eureka?

The Real Problem...

[istartedi]

...is that all of Covad's customers found this great new thing called DSLster. <SARCASM>What I can't figure out is why Slashdot is calling them slackers. Aren't they heroes for sticking it to Covad? I'm confused.</SARCASM>

Not surprising..

[j_snare]

Not surprising at all. So many companies try to get out of paying bills for as long as possible. We face the same situation at my own work. We provide a service for people, and we are now going to cut off anyone who doesn't pay within a reasonable amount of time.

Why service a deadbeat company? If it's not profitable for us, we have no reason to stay in that relationship, even though it will mean depriving some innocent customers of their's from having their service available.

hmm

[operagost]

His line condition could be better, he could actually have a shorter loop depending on how the cable was run, etc.

This really isn't a phone company issue...

[bconway]

It's really much more that the hardware and running costs far exceed the $40 a month that DSL companies are charging to make themselves competitive with the shared cable bandwidth. You really can't make money on DSL at the moment, plain and simple. On a personal note, I've been using SpeakEasy, who does pay their Covad bill, and they're GREAT.

Capu.net

[operagost]

They are great. They need more techies though, hold times were pretty long last time I called (months ago, fortunately).

Re:Capu.net

[fohat]

Unfortunatley You may have a hard time getting residential service through them from now on. I have an RADSL 1.5/384 through Capu.net, it is the best line I've ever had. If you check the website http://www.capu.net they no longer list Residential Services... But you could beg for it...

Squash Competition!

[tlipcon]

Is there any hope of survival against the incumbent phone companies who will do anything to squash competition?

These guys must be competing with Apple, who seems to have recently developed some plans related to squash. People have been saying Apple has been on the edge for years, but now that the big bad phone companies are after their squash...


--

Again, technology loses to corporate crap

[fredbsd]

As a Vitts customer, I am deeply disturbed by the lack of teeth in the FCC when dealing with the baby bells. Case in point: Verizon. They get away with murder up here in the Northeast. Vitts is the latest casualty (we are keeping our fingers crossed they make it).

Our town has only one broadband supplier, Vitts. If they go out, we are screwed as Verizon will not provide us with their BS service and we don't have cable. Verizon will gladly sell us frame-relay or a T1. It's sad, really sad.

Right now I pay ~$100.00 for 530kb pipe (up & down). Vitts service has been outstanding! If they make it, I would strongly suggest people to support them.

But, alas, Verizon owns all the copper to our houses. The sad part is that companies can't go string their own copper. Nice laws guys.

Enough rant. It just really irks me to see DSL go down in flames when it beats everything out there hands down (at least SDSL does).

-fred

Re:Again, technology loses to corporate crap

[TandyMasterControl]

Indeed the Verizon hydra is a standing refutation to the "must privatize all utilities" people. No government-run phone company could be worse than this. As bad, maybe; but worse? I don't believe it is possible.

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[bubbasatan]

Not my stupidity, you pompous ass. Of course I have had many long and ultimately futile conversations with my credit card company. My credit card company, however, has decided that Flashcom is allowed to go on charging my credit card regardless of anything I say or do, simply because they are Flashcom and apparently have that right. I disagree. My credit card company does not believe that billing someone for a non-existent product is fraud. Again I strongly disagree. That's why I have escalated the matter to the Southland California Better Business Bureau, the locale which covers Flashcom's business location. If I have to, I will take legal action against Flashcom. My point was not that my fellow /. posters are communists, rather that the folks at Flashcom are. Perhaps you have heard of the practice of redistribution of property? You know, where an entity takes property from another entity (me, by virtue of charging me for service that I do not use) and redistributes that property to a third entity (in this case, those people who use the service without paying). That, my ignorant friend, is what communism/Marxism-Leninism/socialism is all about. Please try to refrain from spouting filth without first pausing to consider whether what you say connotes reasoned, cogent thoughts or simply causes you to appear unworthy of the attention your ranting will unfortunately attract.

Re:Kinda a pain in the ass, isn't it?

[Ranger Rick]

(maybe all the abuse has something to do with why nobody wants these jobs. nah.)

Heh, in the past I have worked tech support, too; I feel your pain.

Which came first, the customer abuse, or the 3-month employment turnaround?

1st Law Of Networking: Loose ends are bad, termination is good.

Re:Pay?

[datick]

yea man, everybody knows that microshit invented computers...but al gore invented the internet (duh!!). what the hell were you thinking?

Re:Comcast @Home

[pongo000]

AT&T in D/FW does seem a bit more tolerant of "other operating systems" than the other horror stories I've been reading in this thread. In fact, I had prepared for @home installation by setting up the Win95 gaming machine as the "host" computer for the @home tech monkey to jack with, after which I would simply replace the Win machine with a Linux box. Well, it took only a couple of words with the tech -- "multi-node LAN" -- for here to drop off the paperwork, modem, and NIC and wish me a good day.

I even got a static IP address out of the deal.

For some reason, though, I think all of this is too good to be true, and I fear all of this will come crashing down on me once they figure out I'm actually using my own mail server instead of @home's lousy mail service.

Then it will be time to set up one of those "community wireless" networks.

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[imataion]

I had Flashcom.com for a little less than a year, never was I sent a bill nor did I recieve a call. They went bust (aquired by Earthlink) and I'll tell you why, their billing department sucked. Many have mentioned this before me. By the way Earthlink sucks too. Ian

Re:Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[emufreak]

As much as I'd like to do that, there is one type of DSL available where I live (IDSL), so I don't know if it would be a solution. However, IDSL _IS_ a rip-off ($125/mo!), so maybe people would go for it. *shrug*

Tech support.

[Maj. Kong]

Tech support should learn that hardware routers are their friends, and support Linksys and Netgear systems. The homogeniety and simplicity of these systems put Windows to shame.

--

Re:Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[emufreak]

Portola Valley

i just want one that does *not* use PPPoE

[pixel fairy]

yes, i know there are hacks to make it work, but id really rather just not deal with it. its a brain dead protocol.

You are missing the point, they were misled.

[artistX]

Of course he knew it wouldn't be profitable for a few years, everyone knew that.

The point is that Covad knew this and told the ISPs that everything would be fine and that they would wait with them for it to become profitable, only they didn't. They also forced them to purchase orders in very large increments, supposedly since the demand would quickly materialize and defray the up-front costs. If an ISP wanted to offer DSL (and I suspect that ISPs in cities with cable or other broadband access had little choice if they wanted to remain competitve) there was no other game in town. When Covad began offering thier own service they bascially made it impossible for the ISPs that had originally signed on to compete as they were reliant on a larger projected market share that had just been considerbly down-sized by the new competition. For Covad to encourage people to resell thier product and then enter the same market, making it impossible for the resellers to meet thier "quotas" - that is highly questionable.

Of course that doesn't explain why the ISPs didn't get all this in writing, and that is definately thier own fault.

Re:You are missing the point, they were misled.

[drinkypoo]

The point is that Covad knew this and told the ISPs that everything would be fine and that they would wait with them for it to become profitable, only they didn't. They also forced them to purchase orders in very large increments, supposedly since the demand would quickly materialize and defray the up-front costs.

No, the point is, if you're not savvy enough to know the whole story behind a business, you never believe what someone says when they're trying to sell you something. If a traveling salesman came to your door and told you that he had a fuel additive for your car that would double your mileage, and you knew nothing about chemistry, would you buy it?

--
ALL YOUR KARMA ARE BELONG TO US

Re:What is wrong with US DSL? Apathy.

[LoonXTall]

It's the "who cares, customers just complain" attitude, I think.

It's much cheaper just to piss off the whiners so they'll leave than to fix their problem. Word of mouth takes a little time to spread, in which the big corporations can have such rock-bottom prices that it attracts a large number of customers from ISPs who have good service. So those ISPs have to cut costs, and it drags everything down to the lowest common denominator.

Re:Good business technique

[pauldy]

Assuming this was a pull the plug type deal where service was just cut off there will be damages incurred by the actions of Covad. The notepad comparison is different as you are dealing with a product vs service and the laws in many states treat these two very differently. If you are really interested in this e-mail me and I will dig up some examples.

Re:DSL should go away anyway

[pauldy]

Thats a load. It isn't hard to make a profit esp. if it's a value added service to an existing ISP. It does take a whole lot more planning than we're going to offer dsl now through covad and going through the motions of become a covad service provider. You have to take different costs into consideration. You have to target your market and gain some market share through agressive marketing. To many of these companies spread themselves out and tryed to tackle the 400lbs gorilla without so much as a game plan. If you do a risk analysis and find out where you expenses are you can find ways to trim costs and improve profitability. One of things you can't do to improve profitability is decide you aren't going to pay your provider.

While I can agree the points earned are small even the smallest numbers can turn profits if you plan it out. This is also the reason a lot of dotcoms failed they were all looking for gains in the short term and weren't planning on having to ride out turns in the economy. They saw an infinit pool of moeny and wanted to dive in they didn't realize without real value in their services they would quickly go the way of the dodo.

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[Insane One]

It must be the management at NEO then because I have been hearing that the cable modems are great.
I have read many times on /. that the cable modems are great. It is a shame that NEO is like the way they are. My friend told me his email goes down but only the smtp side or the pop3 fairly often and sometimes completely. The news server is the same way, it will loose groups and they reappear.
He finally had it with the mail so he using my server for mail.

Re:le clue needed for you

[kootch]

this issue isn't always the fault of Covad. Most of the time the holdup comes from delays between Covad and the telco that is trying to run their own DSL services.

This happened to me in NYC. Covad needed to do an installation, Bell Atlantic took their time getting a technician out to my place to prep the connection.

I think everyone's taking this issue as Covad's fault, when a lot of time it's the phone companies problem due to their internal structures and wiring.

Re:DSL should go away anyway

[StandardDeviant]

Well, I completely agree that dialup basically sucks. But it isn't completely useless: if you need to connect from multiple locations and use the same provider it's pretty much the only game in town (I'm thinking specifically of somebody who owns a laptop and has to travel hitehr and yon, not every motel 6 has a 10baseT port in every room...).

But yeah, I too think that xDSL is probably the best broadband solution today, for technological as well as political reasons (i.e. opposing cable monopolies). Particular to the tech reasons, why are cable companies a) so unbelievably paranoid about people running their own servers? (hello, I like to be able to ssh home from work to check on stuff :-( ), and b) so finicky about static IP addresses? Grrr, Time Warner pisses me off...

--
Fuck Censorship.

Re:DSL should go away anyway

[Phroggy]

Do you have any idea what the costs are in providing DSL service? I'll give you a hint: offering one year of service costs more than the prices most ISPs charge their customers for a year of service. That's a tough market to enter.

--

Does anyone else find it odd

[miracle69]

That we're using metric prefixes for english measurements?

kft?

Gah.

Re:Does anyone else find it odd

[geoswan]

Well, so long as we are being pedantic, since a watt is a kilogram meter squared per second cubed, I think it qualifies as a metric or S.I. unit.

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[djhankb]

One Word my friend... Cable.

Re:Good

[phantumstranger]

I'm with Americrap now. They've made great strides, like, from not being able to log on for a week at a time to "just" getting dropped a coupla times a week :o\ As much as they've gotten "better", I'd still love to give 'em the ole "heave-ho-get-the-f*ck-outta-my-life."

You said you were in Chi any info on some better ISPs?

Competition? There are ILECs in this market?

[The Vorlon]

As an employee of an ISP (another Internet Express) who has partnered with a CLEC to provide SDSL/IDSL to our customers, I'm amused by the thought of an ILEC 'squashing competition'. We're located on the border between Ameritech (now owned by SBC) territory and Qwest (USWest is now Qwest :) territory. To date, neither ILEC has been very competitive in terms of their DSL service. Ameritech is finally *beginning* to deploy DSL service (some two years late), but they're starting in Chicago and working their way out, so it looks they /still/ won't be in our home territory for another year.

On the other side of the river we have Qwest, who is nominally an ILEC and and ISP; but they're still not able to provide the ISP portion of the service in our area, so any ADSL customers they sign up have to be referred to one of the regional ISPs, like us.

So all in all, the ILECs really haven't posed much competition to us as of yet. I'm sure the situation is different elsewhere.

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[Malc]

Yep, I've had a mega bit connection from Bell Sympatico here in Ontario for 14 months. I've been very impressed with the speed, reliability and consistency. At about USD$26/month, you can't beat the price, especially compared to what some people have said they pay.

But, I should point out that Sympatico is part of Bell. If you go to other companies for your DSL, you are likely to get a run-around or unferior service. It's the same abuse of their market position that people are complaining about down in the US with the telco competing with ISPs. At least that's better than with cable, where there is only one ISP around here: Rogers@Home.

Re:Pay?

[fohat]

I disagree... It is more likely that since most computers run Windows and Mac that they dont want to pay a guy to sit on his ass waiting for that one call a day from a Linux (etc.) user. Also, If your smart enough to install linux perhaps they assume that you are smart enough to fix any problems yourself? It is not where we were that counts, but where we are going...

Re:attn: AFCArchvile

[geistbear]

If you ever can get an installation, now that is the real question, and you thought waiting for the phone guy was bad....

Chapter 11

[SuperRob]

Folks, Chapter 11 (protection from creditors) is only a step towards bankruptcy. It allows the floundering company to gain some breathing room while they reorganize their finances and find a way to pay the bills.

The reason why Covad has the policy of not changing your ISP while they are under Chapter 11 is because they LEGALLY CAN'T.

Chapter 11 allows the ISP to keep operating while not paying their bills (although bills still accrue) that are required for the company to operate (power, water, rent, and in this case, Covad's services). Covad cannot turn them off yet, and cannot bump you to another ISP until the Chapter 11 protection runs out.

Covad however IS turning off all of the ISPs that aren't paying, BEFORE they file Chap. 11. The fact that Covad is telling you means that they are looking out for their customer's customers, and that is VERY cool. Cut them some slack ... they just want to get paid. If you need someone to blame, blame the ISP for not managing their business properly.

If you want to know how I know all of this (and, BTW, IANAL) ... my ISP just files Chap 11 about a month ago.

Re:Pacbell

[BD55]

Maybe I'm lucky. I got Pacbell dsl installed 4 weeks after ordering (ok, they promised it in 3). Customer service is not great, but OK. And dl speeds stay consistent around 1Meg. But then, living in Orange County helps :)

It's all related...

[bluesangria]

So what's the deal with CLEC[?]'s these days? Is there any hope of survival against the incumbent phone companies who will do anything to squash competition?

IMHO, the problems started when the FCC said it was OK for telcos to be in the Internet connection business.

The problems we are seeing now - horribly long times for DSL installs, poor service from EVERYONE, smaller ISPs being driven out of business, and even COVADS current financial troubles - are a direct result of allowing the Bells to compete against ISPs.

Think about it. What if roads and cars worked the same way (I know, I know, it's stretching the analogy, but bear with me here), where there was only one company that built all the roads and then various companies that built cars to drive on those roads? Now, what happens if you let the road-building company make their own cars to sell to the public. Since they are now in control of BOTH cars and roadway, is there anything to stop them from accomodating their own cars at the expense of other car manufacturers?

I have a friend who owns a smaller ISP and they were considering a class-action lawsuit against SBC for their unethical and downright criminal actions when it came to dealing with ISPs as customers.

They would offer preferential treatment (in the form of lower prices, faster install dates, etc.) to their OWN subsidiary ISP and leave the others in the dust.

Until they get the telcos OUT of the ISP market, we are going to continue seeing messes like PacBell, SBC, Covad, and others.

Re:It's all related...

[Phroggy]

I could not agree more. Telcos should be prohibited from being ISPs. They're granted a monopoly, which I guess is OK because it's regulated, but they're leveraging that monopoly to boost their competetive ISP service, which is not OK.

--

As a deadbead Covad customer myself...

[nicwolff]

I know that FlashCom has been stiffing Covad, because I've been stiffing Flashcom. Not out of any desire to be cheap, but because their billing system was broken all last year, and when they finally did start billing me they did so by HTML e-mail with no address to which I could send a check!

Of course when I called them to explain and ask how to pay they put me on eterna-hold and then promised that I'd get a call from someone real soon...

So, I'm $500 in the hole to Flashcom, who obviously hasn't paid Covad for the service they're providing me. Now Flashcom's bankrupt and I'm sitting here using Covad's DSL for free.

If they drop me, I'll just go back to Verizon, whose DSL I dropped when they went to PPPoE but wouldn't mind now that my access routers can log in for me.

What a mess. This isn't Covad suckage, the DSL itself has been great - but the structure of the market makes it impossible for them to win.

Re:Covad is always gonna be a CLEC.

[banuaba]

For those of us not initiated, a is a Competing Local Exchange Carrier (like birch telecommunications or Corvad) and an RBOC is a Regional Bell Operating Center (like SWBell or PacBell.. one of the seven baby bells). The RBOC link has some decent info, if not technical at all.

Brant
Brant

I am a moron....the one time I don't preview..

[banuaba]

Okay, this one is fixed. Promise.

For those of us not initiated, a CLEC is a Competing Local Exchange Carrier (like birch telecommunications or Corvad) and an RBOC is a Regional Bell Operating Center (like SWBell or PacBell.. one of the seven baby bells). The RBOC link has some decent info, if not technical at all.

Brant
Brant

Re:Looking for a new DSL provider?

[caino59]

Seems that some ...DSL providers are proud to pay their bills...

Caino

Don't touch my .sig there!

Find out more about DSL providers.

[slam smith]

DSLReports has quite a bit of info on DSL providers especially customer reviews.

IP provider or DSL provider?

[swb]

Does this really find you a new DSL provider, as in transport layer, or ISP using one of the existing DSL providers like Covad or an existing LEC like the BabyBells?

Changing DSL providers is more difficult than just switching ISPs who're reselling existing DSL infrastructure. Many, many of the ISPs just resell Covad or the existing BabyBell's DSL transport. Colocating DSLAMs in the zillion telco wire centers is a big, expensive infrastructure investment that most "ISPs" can't do or can't do with any real coverage. Your ISP is just a Covad reseller, BTW.

It's kind of like switching long distance carriers -- there's a lot of them, but there aren't that many that actually own the fiber and switching facilities.

Re:IP provider or DSL provider?

[NtG]

In the case of ISP's reselling DSL service, although it is true that some of the ISP's are just resellers for DSL service from other ISP's, most of these so called 'resellers' are actually just reselling the DSL line to the point of the DSLAM, at that point this virtual circuit still has to make it's way to your ISP of choice (usually by way of Bell's ATM network, which your ISP will have an OC3 to or something like that), and from there it *gasp* actually uses your ISP to get Internet bandwidth.

Changing that service from one ISP to the next is _NOT_ a simple case of just changing who you send your bill to, the network operations people actually have to setup your account, change your virtual circuit to point to them, and whatever else ISP's typically do when taking in new circuits.

Gee that sounds difficult... Setting up the the 'virtual circuit' on a packet switched network.. Routing packets is not a new concept you know..

Re:IP provider or DSL provider?

[jidar]

None of it's difficult... hrm.. I guess that means that it all should be done immediately when you call in right? Level 1 techs and all...

Re:IP provider or DSL provider?

[swb]

He *tried* to make alternate arrangements, but none of the Northpoint ISP's he talked to seemed to understand that he ALREADY HAD THE DSL, and all they needed to do was flip a switch, as it were. They told him they could get things rolling in 6-8 weeks.

Imagine that the infrastructure is something like this (I'm guessing, I haven't actually been inside a wire center to see the equipment): Several racks of DSLAM equipment all owned by the DSL provider and meshed together into a stack via the ATM backend. In order to move a user, it really is a "simple" as remapping the DSLAM interface your copper pair connects to the new ISPs ATM cloud.

However, for reasons that seem obvious to me, there's a lot of bureaucracy involved. Switching ISPs probably means two work orders -- a disconnect order, issues by the old ISP and a connect order, issued by the new ISP. Each ISP has their own bureaucracy to cope with in addition to the workflows of the DSL provider. Add in any additional workorders if the infrastructure end is sold differently -- ie, if the DSL provider sells connectivity to ISPs by the DSLAM chassis instead of "virtually" through a shared chassis stack -- you probably need the local Bell operation to do some wire moves from one chassis to another, which is probably two or more work orders in itself. And the Bell guys are Union and do this stuff on God's own schedule.

Re:IP provider or DSL provider?

[popular]

Not so fast...

A friend of mine had some problems with Telocity. After four days no service, and no contact from them, he finally managed to get ahold of the tech support department, who told them that he had a billing problem. The billing department got back to him a couple days later, and they told him that he owed $108. He paid, and got reconnected, but only after a week of downtime struggling through their "customer service".

He *tried* to make alternate arrangements, but none of the Northpoint ISP's he talked to seemed to understand that he ALREADY HAD THE DSL, and all they needed to do was flip a switch, as it were. They told him they could get things rolling in 6-8 weeks.

I still don't think that the ILECs are being fair to CLECs, since I had no difficulty obtaining DSL from my local monopoly, which I chose on the basis that the best ISP I could find only used Northpoint for IDSL (ack!). Unlike my friends using Covad and Northpoint (especially because we have other friends working for Northpoint), I have noticed only two failures for a total of three hours over the past year and a half. Fishy, isn't it?

--

Re:Kinda a pain in the ass, isn't it?

[Greyfox]

In my own experiences on the phone lines, the good phone monkeys never last long. They usually move up to jobs that don't involve direct contact with the customer fairly quickly. I'm sure you've seen what gets left at the bottom. If someone's been on phone support for 5 years, you do NOT want to talk to that person.

Tech support really is the MacDonalds job of this industry.

Your Friendly Neighbourhood Monopoly

[FFFish]

Tis undoubtedly far too late to post this and receive any sort of decent response, but what the hell:

What's needed is recognition of the advantages of a controlled monopoly. Monopolies have the advantage of scale; and if they're controlled by consumer advocacy, they're the perfect method of delivering "essential services."

Up here in Canada, we had monopoly telephone service. Part of the consumer-dictated mandate was that (a) every damn corner of the country would have phone service; (b) when equipment was upgraded, it would be replaced with *new* equipment, not left-overs from someone other community's upgrade; (c) price controls; (d) service guarantees.

Long-distance competition was opened up. Per-minute costs dropped, but the monthly service fees doubled and tripled, you have to pay for installation and repairs now, and the quality of service has declined.

It's a bummer.

Anyway, this is all a round-about way of saying that perhaps a monopoly ISP would be just peachy. It would have to be controlled, of course: you can't let wild monopolies loose, or you get the kind of shit we have with Microsoft. Gotta keep 'em tame, let them have reasonable profits, but also demand price controls, service guarantees and so on.

Okay, so this is nearly incoherent. It's far too late for me to be up writing this, so it's probably a good thing that no one will be reading it...


--

Not anymore... ADSL up to 55,000 ft nowaday

[Dark Coder]

Not anymore...

Symmetricon has created an ADSL repeater called "GoLong" that would make it possible to reach up to 55,000 feet.

The URL is http://www.symmetricom.com/products/GoLong.html

So, it's coming. Just be patient.

Re:Not anymore... ADSL up to 55,000 ft nowaday

[TandyMasterControl]

How does this differ from IDSL - which also uses a repeater on the lines out beyond the CO?

Re:Not anymore... ADSL up to 55,000 ft nowaday

[Dark Coder]

Verizon hasn't plan to deploy GoLong yet because their CTO isn't as saavy as one would like him to be.

Re:You can't beat a monopoly

[swillden]

For a good example of healthy competition via public infrastructure, consider the shipping business: Private carriers travelling on public highways.

Good example? Maybe. I'm not so sure. Sure the system works pretty well; service is generally fast and good and competition among shippers has slashed costs to the bone. However, it's a fat bone. We spend an unbelievable amount of money maintaining the roads and most of that money goes to fight the damage done to them by semi-tractor trailers. If our roads didn't have to support the big trucks, they'd be far lighter, less expensive and wear out a lot less quickly.

But that's okay, right? They serve us well, right?

Not really. All costs considered, long-haul bulk transport by truck costs ten times what rail transport does. But the railroads have to maintain their own infrastructure, while the truckers get a free ride (relatively, they do pay heavier vehicle taxes than the rest of us, but it's not nearly in proportion with the higher costs their vehicles inflict).

Railroads died because during the 50s and 60s the U.S. pumped billions in to roads, and they couldn't beat a competitor with that kind of massive subsidy (who could?). As a direct result, we pay far more for shipping than we should have to.

Free markets aren't perfect, and they can be especially painful when they're young, but in most cases they yield a better long-term solution than central control, especially when they're managed with just enough regulatory oversight to ensure that none of the competitors get to be too successful.

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[Malc]

I don't bother with static IPs thanks to dyndns.org. My Netgear router can auto update that too, although I'm still using a piece of client software to do that.

HSE is capped at 120kbs upstream which is actually a little low as it seems to make uploads interfere with downloads. I tried Rogers@Home for a month (free self-install + free first month). It was supposed to have bandwidth of 3mbs/320 or 384kbs. I never saw that though. The best speeds came if I waited until 4am. The best downstream I saw was from Sympatico's speed test page at 1544kbs. From dslreports.com on the west coast, this dropped to 300/220kbs! So much slower to the west coast than HSE. R@H was extremely variable in speed, latency and reliabilty. IMHO, they've over-subscribed their backbone, and their peer connections and routes suck. It's no wonder Rogers wants to dump @Home and do the backbone stuff some other way. Sympatico is supposed to be rolling out higher speeds, but I'd rather stay with what we've got if the backbone isn't ready... I always get consistent throughput and latency and almost always zero packet loss.

Flashcom Sucks, then Steals

[skuenzli]

I arranged to get IDSL service from Flashcom in Arlington, TX. They sent Covad out fairly quickly, who installed it.

It worked for one hour. Then it stopped.

I racked up over 40 hours of tech/customer support phone calls trying to convince them it was not a problem on my side. typical exchange:

them: "wait! you're running Linux? linux can't do DSL."
me: "uh ok, I'll just boot back into NT."
them: "wait! you have multiple partitions. that's the problem"
me: "please let me talk to your supervisor"
them: "there are no supervisors here right now"

They also sent out Covad (2x) who replaced a card in the phone box at my apt. complex. Nothing works. But I *do* have service tickets at Flashcom, Covad, and SWBell. So that's something.

I decided to just give up on it, especially since I hadn't received a bill (3 months of wrangling). Then, on the day I start my move to AZ, I get a bill in the mail for $295 installation and 2 months x $51.85/mo. Fuck. Billed to my credit card. Double fuck.

Move to AZ

After hours on hold with Flashcom billing and 'customer service' I finally get them to close my account (even though it never worked, and was noted as such on my account history). Their 'equipment' had shown the link as working and active even though the router had not been plugged in for 3 months and the phone line had been disconnected for an entire month. They say they'll refund the money; no problem. 3 weeks later and no refund. More hours on hold. It's coming Real Soon Now. 2 more weeks. Receive another bill for monthly service at $51.85 (total is now $451. after I closed my account. again.) I file a dispute with my CC. Magically the full amount gets refunded. Receive letter from CC company (MBNA) saying dispute not necessary, cash refunded. I'm blissful. Next day, I check my CC statement, and the *entire fucking amount* has been recharged to my card. Call Flashcom (2 hours on hold for a long distance call that I keep being hung up on due to high caller volume. It's not even a FIFO system. It's a (Buffer full? Flush buffer.) system). After 4 hours, I get through. Oh, we didn't close your *billing* account; we just closed your internet account. Oh, and we re-charged you because the person who refunded the money last time only had this level of authority instead of this other one. Begin dispute process on new charges.

Moral: Do not set up automatic charges to your credit/debit card. That, and if you think you're going to take it in the a$$, then at least buy some KY.

If you have Flashcom now. I would highly recommend switching carriers as a preventive measure.

Stephen

Re:Flashcom Sucks, then Steals

[nivedita]

Had a similar experience with FlashCom: I signed up with them for DSL service, they gave me an appointment 3 weeks in future, and noted down my credit card number. A week later, discovered that I would be moving in a couple of months, so called them up and told them to cancel it. Rep said, ok, no problem. Then got my next CC bill and saw a $100 installation charge from FlashCom. After this it was impossible to get ahold of their customer service: I got through twice after half-hour holds, only to be told "yes, your account has been cancelled" and then hung up on when I mentioned the $100. I had to dispute the charge to finally get my money back, and it took two months. Sure hope they go out of business.

Re:Flashcom Sucks, then Steals

[Calle Ballz]

YOu mentioned moving to arizona, I've lived in arizona for a while, and the only DSL provider in my town at the time I ordered it was Theriver as an ISP, and new edge networks as the DSL carrier. I recommend against them. I have so many stories i can tell you if you would like to hear them. dick_willie@hotmail.com

Re:What else can you do with deadbeats?

[nhavar]

See here's the odd part about that. Not only Covad has this problem. SWBell and others have similar problems telling you exactly what the problem is, how to fix it, why it happened and how to avoid it in the future. Other companies also have some contractual obligations which typically state that there is a remedy process where by you get money back, this process also states that you cannot withhold funds/payment as remedy.

I used to work for a telecomm company and when our larger customers signed up they usually wanted us to sign agreements that said that if they went without service we had to pay them a penalty fee. Phones had to be manned, answered, problems solved, services running etc. all within a specific range specified in the contract and if it didn't then we had to fork over some cash. And it happened, oh boy did it. If we didn't fulfill our end of the contract it was considered breeched and they could go and find another carrier and possibly sue us for damages.

So the questions come to mind as to why other companies have not followed a similar path? So many of these companies are bleeding off cash selling services for below cost to everyone, selling what they can't provide, satiating the customer with free time/cash back when service is not met, it's a wonder that anyone has money to pay any of their bills. 6 months of service with my current provider and I received 200$ free equipment (standard) and to date 4 months free service (two when I started and two due to a month long outage) and paid for 2 months. All for a service that they were losing money on even if I had paid for all six months. So where is the money coming from to get bills paid? From other services that cost next to nothing to run? Like my phone service that I pay almost $50 for and just get call waiting and caller ID and yet my cell phone (another major money loser) I pay 24.95 for and get all that plus some. Discrepency much?

I currently have DSL with another company. The problems that I've seen are two fold. Lack of knowledge of the technician, lack of communication between two companies. My provider said that they couldn't even call the other company because the FCC had set up rules against that, their only means of communicating was via a ticket system (other people in the company verified that this happened). The company (according to a former employee) was even supposed to use their systems to access a remote system which then redirected them back into their own network for the sole purpose of limiting the company to the same speed as any ISP's that might want to use that system (competition issues). I believe the FCC also has some rules about how many users you can put out of service at a given time and what you are to do to transition them onto another carrier but this might only be in relation to phone/paging/cellular and not ISP's.

Here's the real problem (as I see it). And you can apply this to any company not just ISP/Telecom:
1) company A offers great new service

offers service below cost to build subscription rates.

raises rates on other goods/services to narrow loss
2) company B sees 'success' of company A's plan, decides to compete with similar plan

offers lower rate than company A

promises better service than company A
3) company C,D,E,F follow suit.
4) Investors see huge increase in subscribtion numbers as sign of 'success' (see AOL)
5) Earnings report moderate "growth".

more investors

more follower companies
6) Rates for previously cheap services now seem expensive to user due to rate hikes needed to cover losses on other service.

user cuts down on services used

user "shops" for new service with different company
7) Diminishing cash flow puts halt on hiring, build out, etc.

people continue to sign up and be accepted for service

people begin to bad mouth company for not 'moving' in their area

service begins to decline due to lack of staff/turnover/etc. while demand for such increases daily, existing users complain
8) Earnings report shows loss

Investors begin to back away

"cost saving" measures begin to be looked at such as slashing staff, increasing price of good/service/increased marketing some try the reverse lower price to gain higher subscription hoping to cash in on secondary service purchases.
9) Services begin to erode

customer satisfaction at all time low

customer retention plans failing

new customer sources dwindling, no capacity to service, service options limited

And so this is where we end up. The company had hoped to gain customers and at some point cover the loss through volume or secondary products. Unfortunately every other company got into the same mindset and the margins went into the toilet and the fierce competition dissallowed raising the price of the original service for fear of losing customers. The monitary loss could be covered temporarily but would eventually show through causing the investors to run which in turn reduced the money available to garner more customers and more improved services. All this led to record losses and the companies involved found it easier to withhold payment on certain debts in an effort to ease "bleeding money out of the eye sockets syndrome".

Paging, ISP, Cellular, Telephony, California power, Dodge cars/trucks. You name it most of the companies out there have at one time or another used this strategy and failed with it (miserably). Companies are bleeding money off like crazy the past couple of years because there were so many investors, now that investments have started to dry up instead of improving their business practices they've taken to layoffs/bankruptcy/debt avoidance/finger pointing/price gouging.

Slow growth is still the best growth IMHO. All of this fierce competition in the market is causing too many companies to fail and in the end leaving gaps in the market. Older longer lasting companies then take over these gaps and you end up 'stuck' with a company you can't stand and marginal services.

While competition sparks innovation it can in the end stifle it for periods also. It's all cyclical. Rapid growth - innovation - competition - failure - no innovation - rinse and repeat as necessary.

Re:All is not what it seems.

[mr_death]

So (if I read the press release correctly), the decision makers at Internet Express took Covad's propaganda as gospel, failed to do their due dilligence, and mindlessly signed up. Then the company found out that the world wasn't as rosy as the propaganda claimed.

Sorry, but the fault lies with Internet Express. If they pulled their heads out of their arse and acted liked true business people, they wouldn't be in this situation.

Re:East Coast/West Coast thing?

[Nex]

As for actual dsl service, mine here in San Diego is just fine, thank you, and I use Pacbell's dsl, yes indeed. Speed's consistent (1.3Mbps down, 115k up), and I never get thrown off. Mail and news suck so I go elsewhere for that, but if we're talking pure dsl satisfaction, I'm smiling. Nex

And you wonder...

[Sycraft-fu]

Why Europeans are often stereotyped as stuck up in the US? OK, if you think Europe as a whole is advanced in the communications area, you really have another thing comming to you. There are areas that are good, but there are many, many areas that are bad. In Italy you still have to pay PER MINUTE for data transactions (net access). In France there are many locations where you can't even get an international line. All this not to mention that the fibre capacity is a fraction of the US and the situation doesn't look so one sided.

What you are forgetting is that Covad is only one of many DSL providers in the states and DSL is only one of many kinds of access. In Tucson Arizona, where I live, I can get DSL from no less than 4 people, Qwest (our local telco), Covad, New Edge, and one other who's name escapes me right now. I personally use Qwest because I feel their deals are the best. Also, if I wished I could get a cable modem from Cox, or a wireless dish from Sprint, Gain or a number of others. To judge the entire US data structure based off of one post about one provider is shortsited to say the least.

Now, as to your issue with the GSM phone. Indeed you CAN use your GSM phone here in the US, Voicestream, PacBell, and a few others all offer GSM service. I personally used Voicestream GSM service for a year until I dumped it in favour of Sprint PCS because the quality and converage are better. Also I would remind you that indeed wireless phone comunication WAS invented here. The first cell service began with AT&T back in 1947 on a very limited scale. You have to remember that US corporations have a significant amount invested in whatever infastructure they happen to use (CDMA, TDMA, etc) and they can't simply can it and replace it all with GSM. Also, my experience shows me no real significant GSM advantage other than compatibility with other countries and the number portibality offered with the smart chip. My Sprint PCS phone has superior quality to my old Voicestream GSM phone so I find the qualit argument uncompelling.

Basically what I'm trying to get across is thta the US is not technologically backwards, despite what you might have heard. We do have very good, very fast communications networks, very often superior to what Europe has to offer. As a parting thought I'll leave you with this: All the major processor manufacturers are US companies, Intel, Motorola, Compaq (Digital), Texas Instruments, Hewlet Packard, MIPS, all US companies. While they have manufacturing plants all around the world, they are US companies. That should tell you something. I'm not trying to say that the US rules and all other countries are for shit (I'm Canadian, I just live here), I'm just trying ot help you maintain some perspective.

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[Guy Harris]

I had Flashcom.com for a little less than a year, never was I sent a bill nor did I recieve a call. They went bust (aquired by Earthlink)

Reference? I've seen no indication that Earthlink have bought Flashcom.

Re:This "feet from the office" thing seems hokey.

[Ecks]

T1s either have equipment attached to the line for conditioning and repeating signals or are virtual circuits carried on the ILEC's frame or ATM cloud. A T1 circuit is not a bare pair of 26 gauge copper wires strung from the CO to your location like an xDSL line. Chris

Re:Covad helping people from other ISPs?

[profrs]

Flashcom has moved some of their customers to other ISP's but they haven't shut off their Covad customers yet. The info is here.

I work for Covad...

[Anonymous Coward]

And, while I can't talk about a lot of stuff here, I can clear up something that is seemingly murky.

The Covad.Net initiative is intended to serve two purposes:

1. Be a temporary place where end-users of failing/bad ISPs can move their COVAD service (ie, keep it up and running) until they find a new ISP. We can automatically switch an E-U from their one ISP to another within a couple of hours of getting the go-ahead from the EU. We are hoping t
2. Act as a primary ISP ONLY in markets not served by Covad Partners. We're not in the business of competing with our customers (i.e. our ISPs).

The reason you aren't seeing Covad switch Flashcomm and other Chapter 11 ISPs End-Users to other Covad-using ISPs is that the EU is considered an asset of the bankrupt ISP, and they have to be "bought" away. Which is what Covad is negotiating with the ISPs to do (we then encourage the EU to move to another good (ie paying Covad) ISP)

In essence, you aren't going to be seeing emails directly from Covad telling you to change ISPs. Even for folks like Flashcomm, any change in who your ISP might be will come in a notification from your current ISP. It's all up to you if you want to move ISPs. Of course, we're going to make it easy to move if you want... -Me (posting anonymously)

Re:Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[multipartmixed]

I agree completely -- check out the HomeBrew DSL page (google it, I can't be bothered).

A netopia router and head unit per conection was out $800 US last time I looked. Around here, a T1 is about $1500 US per month, and an alarm circuit (unloaded copper pair) from the ILEC costs $15 US per month.

So, for an $800 startup fee per customer, 100 customers on a T1 (not unrealistic, especially with no competition!), you can provide DSL for about $30 a month and break even. Oh, and spend $2000 on a Cisco Router -- a one-time expense.

Sounds reasonable to me. You could probably do better pricewise on the hardware, too -- I chose that solution when DSL was relatively new.

If you wanted to be a real-honest-to-God ISP, you could probably provide that hardware, and jack the price up to reasonable levels to allow you to recoup your hardware costs in 18 months or so. The best part is, you can probably get a $100 "sign up" fee, no problem-o.

--

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[Liam]

Boy you have a strange idea of going down "rarely". 15 full days in two years? That would be unacceptable to me. In the 14 months I've had DSL (from Covad) it's been down a total of maybe 24-36 hours. I have 384K symmetric and pay $50/month (paying for ADSL so the could throttle the upstream, but they haven't).

All is not what it seems.

[artistX]

I originally heard about this a few months ago as I had some co-location dealings with a company that also sold Covad DSL (Internet Express here in San Diego). My buddy happened to know people there and got kind of an inside scoop.

Here's the gist of it, Covad would go to these local companies and show them how profitable it would be for them to resell DSL accounts. Of course the initial cost of setting everything up is astronomical, but hey the future is bright, don't worry about such things...
Well Covad basically told these resellers not to worry and that everything would be fine, and that they had to purchase these huge contracts that they didn't have enough users to cover - but it would be fine in the long-run.
I don't know if someone at Covad finally realized they weren't going to get paid any time in the near future or if they had this planned all the time - but one day they told everyone, hey you're in debt to us - give us all your subscribers and we'll give you a break on what's due.

And somehow Covad ends up with all these subscribers after having paid out little to nothing or get them... Odd.

The CEO of Internet Express went so far as to issue a press release on this. Pretty tame, I would have been a lot more blunt. Then again, I'll probablly never be a CEO :)

Re:IT'S CALLED OHM'S LAW

[multipartmixed]

Ask dope-boy for a Time-Delay Reflectometer. I know where they can be had for about $10,000US, that would have solved your problem by *easily* pinpointing the tap.

--

Re:oh come on...

[A coward on a mouse]

Uh, New York is *not* in New England, which consists of six states, CT, MA, ME, NH, RI, and VT. Counting New York as part of New England would be like saying Scotland was part of England; New Englanders generally hate New Yorkers with a white-hot passion, which is returned in kind whenever New Yorkers remember that New Englanders exist, which is infrequently.

What is wrong with US DSL?

[WebCowboy]

Why does a country with a leading role in technology and the global economy have such a hard time deploying and marketing the latest innovations? DSL seems to be the latest in a long line of examples.

Think about it. Television, video tape, transistors and microchips all came to being in the US, and non-US companies seem to grab it and run with it. How many TVs, VCRs and video cameras are actually MADE in the US? Next to none (I think there is maybe ONE picture-tube facility in the US--if they haven't already been shut down). A lot of semiconductor manufacturing occurs in the US, but a relatively HUGE amount occurs in Asia (an earthquake in tiny Taiwan didn't cause RAM prices to jump for nothing).

Now we have DSL. The technology leader here is the US, but communications companies can't get their crap together to provide decent service. Even in Canada (which has even bigger problems exploiting home-grown innovation IMHO) we are doing it better. I've had DSL for over a year--I consistently get 1 to 2 Mbps inbound and nearly that outbound and have had less than ONE DAY of outage (in Alberta). In Ontario, some people are even contemplating switching from the horribly inconsistent Rogers@home cable service to DSL because of server outages. Ironically the problems with Cable internet in Canada have a lot to do with screw-ups by the US-based @Home network.

What is Canada doing different than the US for there to be such a difference? I think the US has to be at least as capable (if not more) to provide the best of the best to it's consumers. If private companies can do it with DSL in Canada (despite its higher taxes and over-regulation which gets in the way sometimes), why can't the US? I've always had the impression that the US was much more free enterprise and that US consumers don't put up with the crap Canadians and others would take.

Of course, the telecommnications industry in Canada was privatised and deregulated in a much different manner than in the US. Does anyone have an insight into how come the telephone companies and DSL ISPs are so screwed up in the US?

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[max99ted]

Wow....that'll be great when they light up the new CA*Net3.

Can't wait to see those transfer rates, even with buddy from up North onboard...

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Canada is probably doing better than the US in handling the DSL problem because, well, there are only sixteen Canadians with computers, though recently I heard a shaky report of a renegade Canadian trying to connect somewhere in the Northwest Territory. Watch out.

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[Mr_Ust]

Bell Sympatico has a 128kbit/sec upload cap. Rogers@home in Ontario, Canda is definitely the way to go. I've always had at least 4 megabits down and 400 kilobits up. The situation is different in the US. Cable in most places (at least on the west coast from AT&T) is also capped to 128kbit/sec upload. I'm happy with my 960/816 ADSL, but it's costing me an arm and a leg compared to what I would have had to pay for it in Canada. What's the deal with having to pay a MONTHLY fee for a static IP anyway? Such a rip-off.

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[regen]

I have a partial answer to this. US companies are very tied to providing short term profit, at all costs.

In business situations where you need a long time period to ramp up production or deployment, US companies have real problems.

A lot of the Asian companies that have taken over semiconductor and electronics manufactoring have a longer term profit horizon, and are willing to wait many years for an investment in a manufactoring plant to pay off. US companies aren't willing to wait for profit.

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[WebCowboy]

My argument has NOTHING TO DO with the actual technology. I am fully aware that we share the same phone system and took digital and analogue communications courses in University. I even pointed out that the technology even came into being in the US. The whole problem seems to be with management.

What I am puzzled about is how come American ISP's are defaulting left and right and having their services shut down by suppliers. Why can't these comapnies remember to invoice their customers and pay their bills to their suppliers? Why does DSL cost twice as much and take three times as long to get in the US than it does just north of the border?

This isn't meant as an anti-American statement. I even said that Canada is deploying high-speed internet (and specifically DSL) better than the US despite being higher taxed, over-regulated and less competitive than the US. Generally, Americans don't put up with the same kind of bull from government and corporations that Canadians do, and it's time that Canadians put their feet down (ever try to fly Air Canada (AKA Aeroflot of the West) lately, or deal with the CCRA when your internet purchase gets held up at the border because the customs agent wants to know 50 more pages of stuff about what's inside the box?).

At the risk of offending fellow Canadians, maybe it's time for Americans to stop being so "Canadian" when it comes to high speed internet access (and some other high-tech areas)and take these companies to task. They've been quite successful in the past in other industries (Through a combination of consumers voting with dollars and government persuasion, domestic cars are of much better quality for example)...

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[WebCowboy]

Yup, sounds typical of what I've heard. Shaw@Home in Calgary is the same--some people sometimes get great speed, but service is inconsistent based on where in the city you line and what time you use it and so on.

An interesting point someone made about Bell/Sympatico DSL likely being more reliable than other ISPs offering DSL. In Alberta, I've had personal experience dealing with the cable company, a telco (Telus HSE--which would be like Bell in Ontario) and an ISP (PSInet/CADVision), and although I found little difference in the speed and relibility between the DSL services(Telus was just slightly less than PSI/CADvision), Telus was MUCH WORSE for customer service (both by phone and through their internet pages--long waiting times and less knowledgeable). That was a big factor for me not going with either Shaw OR Telus in the end...

Re:What is wrong with US DSL?

[AFCArchvile]

What's wrong with DSL in the United States? I'll tell you what's wrong with it in two words: BABY BELLS.

Of course, we all know about how Verizon is stiffing all the CLECs and the customers it can possibly harass. But so are Pacific Bell and Southwestern Bell. Both of those companies use PPPoE, fail to calculate loop distances correctly, practice improper routing, and overcharge their customers. It's why they're all in the red zone of the DSLReports weekly ratings chart.

Re:http://www.telocity.com/

[Anonymous Coward]

Q:What do you say to a Puerto Rican in a three-piece suit? A:Will the defendant please rise?
/. Footer 2/07

I saw that too... man that is FUCKED UP

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[nmarshall]

i too am geting free dsl from flashcom. your luckly they forgot about me. i have called them asking were is my bill, they never had an answer.

also i dont get newsletters, and they never did tell me how to login to my email.

i have one question, have you had bad connects to there DNS server?


nmarshall

The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[Kool Moe]

There's probably a tap somewhere on your line, or anything else creating 'line noise'. A friend moved the DSL pairs on his netbox to a different pair into his house when he had flakey service and all is good. Try different pairs?

Ok, I responded, now my thoughts:
DSL is awesome- solid performance and great tech. Wait til VoDSL comes out and the DSL users can totally drop their local phone company. Then video-ver-DSL and who needs cable?

The DownSide to DSL is having to go through your local ILEC. I have service with Rhythms directly (not a partner) and the service is kick-ass. I've had it just under two years now, a solid 256k SDSL connection that NEVER under-performs and often gives me 28-30K connections. It is expensive though- $120 a month. But it's worth it cause it goes down so rarely. The past two years, been down a total of 15 days. Pretty good for new tech. AND each time that outage went more than 5 days, they took 30% off my monthly bill, no hassles (though I did have to request it).

Look, this technology is still in its infancy. Cars sucked for a long time before they got to where they are today. Same with most everything else. Just because we live in a fast-paced society doesn't mean everything is gonna work out right from the start. Patience!

DSL will be around for a while, and let's PRAY that at least one other provider remains. Verizon SUCKS for phone service, I'd hate to rely on them for my DSL service more than I already have to. And imagine the support/pricing hell we'll go through if you can only get DSL from your local ILEC!

disclaimer: I own stock in RTHM, cause I really think they've done it right. Of course, it's so in the red...but someday! ;)

Re:Looking for a new DSL provider?

[jeffsenter]

An even better place to look for new a DSL ISP [plug] is www.ispmenu.com from the company I work for, gromco.
You can submit a request for a proposal and see all the different ISPs offers. [/plug]

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[mr_burns]

I have a friend in the same situation. I think this is why flashcom is going belly up. They were giving away their service for free. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that practice was a business no-no. The question is WHY did they make such a decision? It seems somewhat unlikely that that kind of detail would be overlooked. You almost have to go out of your way to not charge people for something like that.

Re:Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[ChaosMt]

Obviously 5000 people isn't enough to get you to wake up. Hear that? That's opportunity knocking! Do it yourself. Start a not-for-profit co-op. Get's those 5000 people all to pitch in to pay for you and the equipment costs. In the world of dsl, my money is on that you it at least faster; maybe even better! In addition, you be setting a good precedence to keep the competition lively. Go for it!!

Re:You get what you pay for...

[Nugget]

For what it's worth... It still costs $100+ for a dedicated 28.8 connection. I was paying $150/month for my dedicated 33.6 connect and /28 subnet right up until the day I moved to Austin in November. (Now I'm blisfully happy with my $90/month 144kbps IDSL from speakeasy.net)

Re:What else can you do with deadbeats?

[Anonymous Coward]

Working for an ISP that was in this situation with Covad, let me explain how this is really going:
1) Covad sucks. Bad. Their turn-around-time on trouble tickets is from 3 days to 3 months, sometimes longer.
2) Covad does not know what they are doing as a collective whole. Their ordering department knows more about the install than the high-school dropout they send to do the install.
3) Covad does not want to resolve these issues, and then expects payment.
4) ISPs have been WITHHOLDING PAYMENT until Covad FIXES their problems.
5) Covad disconnects them rather than fix their problems.
6) Covad will file Chapter 11/13 due to this behaviour.

And that is business with Covad. There are few "deadbeat" ISPs but they are NOT the norm. Bills are being suspended because of a customer service problem; nothing more.

Re:Covad helping people from other ISPs?

[ucblockhead]

Hey, I'm on flashcom, and haven't been shut off...

[hurriedly checks connection home]

Yup, still there.

Though their service really sucks, and since Covad were the ones who originally installed the line, and since their service was great, I wish they would switch me.

Re:IT'S CALLED OHM'S LAW

[metaph0r]

Yeah, and if I had *access* to the telco closet in my building, I might have taken such McGyver-ish measures. Only the telco has a key to it, and besides, I'm not a fan of sticking my fingers into anything with live voltage, nor a fan of pissing off my neighbors by accidentally shorting out all their POTS lines. If the Covad tech (who was quite clued), wasn't able to figure out where along in the wire the tap was located, how exactly would I have done it? Sorry, but I don't have my own personal Bert tester. Dork.

Re:Pay? @Home Does Allow Linux

[sleeeper]

Although @Home has done pleny to piss me off, they do allow Linux. In fact, just last night I received yet another letter asking me to change from a static IP to DHCP , unless I am running Linux (or a Mac). Sine I run Linux, I won't be making any changes. They are condesending, but they do allow you to run other operating systems.

DSL isn't dead everywhere

[WebCowboy]

In the grand scheme of things, DSL technology is FAR from dead. Where I'm at (Calgary, Canada) the situation is opposite. DSL from several providers matches and often exceeds Cable (provided by Shaw@home which has a monopoly on the Calgary cable market). My next door neighbour has Cable internet, I have DSL. I get THREE TIMES the transfer rate and significantly better ping times (Even when we ping other computers on Shaw's network!).

I've also had better uptime than the typical Shaw customer--more than once in the past year, the @home servers crap out or Shaw decides to shut down service to perform some upgrade (usually starting on Friday so as to piss off the enitre neighbourhood for an entire weekend). This is a vicious cycle--Shaw slows down to less than 20 Kbyte/sec, the service goes out for the weekend and comes back at 50-150 Kbyte/sec then degrades slowly to under 20, rinse, repeat... This isn't a problem for "1%" of cable users here--I think it's more like 15% to 50%.

I'm sure that living in the extremely fast growing suburban Calgary is a factor, and that in more established areas the service from Shaw is a bit more consistent. But the fact is, "massive growth in subcriber base" seems to have a HUGE effect on performance, and DSL is consistent, reliable and provides better service than cable(well--except maybe for Telus)--at least where I live. Therefore, I expect Cable and DSL to duke it out for awhile yet (Covad might have financial problems, but @Home and the cable companies also have many problems of their own).

700-800k at 20,000'+

[sfled]

When Earthlink first installed I was downloading at approx. 18KB to 19KB (about 157kb). Less than two weeks later the speed got bumped to -

download time: 5.228
download size in thousands of bytes: 500
estimated line speed (K bits per second): 780.4
estimated line speed (K bytes per second): 95.6

Nothing changed on my end; same pokey ol G3, etc. Speed test at SpeedTest.

Covad and others billing practices

[sahmed]

DSL is expensive to deploy, and covad and the other DSL providers have tried to pass this cost onto the ISP's rather than consumers. They have minimum subscribtion agreements from ISP's which are totally unreasonable for most ISP's. Hence even if ISP's passed all the money they got from customers on to covad, there would still owe them money. Some ISP's decided that DSL is a loss leader but marketing advantage. Others pretended they could make money with DSL. The latter group are the ones who are sorely dissapointed. Saif

Waiting for the other shoe to drop...

[ldvl]

I think the worst is yet to come in the "DSL Shakeout"

I work at a small DSL-only ISP in the New York area. We don't have much for services, but we provide good performance at a decent price. (Our DS-3 is loaded at 3 percent for those complaining of over-subscription) I provide technical assistance, with never a waiting time.

We could be profitable if we had more customers, but unfortunately it costs a lot of money to get customers. Advertising is a significant part of the equation. Consider that we need about 1000 users to be profitable. That would require about 2500 users to sign-up since more than half will cancel before they're ever installed.

Unfortunately, last year cost everyone a ton of money. With everyone giving away routers and setups, and charging barely enough to cover their Covad bills, it's no wonder why so many are now failing.

Those with the deep pockets are now playing a waiting game, hoping to be the last one standing.

I don't blame Covad for doing what they can to become profitable, but I'm not sure that cutting off their ISP's is a wise choice. Read how many people here have found cable to be a more desirable alternative.

If in the end, it is the one with the most money who wins, then it will likely be the ILEC who will be the last one standing. Then they will be free to raise rates, and provide even less service than they do today.

I think the government is to blame for not going far enough in the Telecom Reform of '96. The ILEC has stretched that weakness to the furthest extent possible. They suck to the furthest extent of the law. Covad is to blame for not doing enough to help ailing ISP's. If we're to blame for not running our business well enough, we're in good company.

I don't want to offend anyone, but you guys out there who didn't know you needed a NIC card to get DSL. Those of you who ordered from five companys, and then cancelled all but the first one installed. Those of you who ordered ADSL for your business with 50 users. You're part of the problem as well. I won't name names, you know who you are.

and this goes with my theory..

[josepha48]

That the onle way DSL will really take off is if ddsl modems are as easy to obtain as 56k modems and as easy to install.

Several companies make this technology, where you install a network card in your computer hook it up to the modem and attach filters to your phones, but they only sell it through them. What ends up happening is you end up waiting and waiting for the parts to come. Earthlink, Telocity and Radio Shack have this technology as wel I am sure there are others. This means you don't need covad or anyone else to install any new phone lines in your house.

This also has the adcantage that if you move you don't have to get a new line in your new place, you just move your modem and filters with you.

This of cource would mean that Covad would do less business, but so what who wants to deal with Covad there ISP and PacBell when something goes wrong with the line anyway???? (Yes some people do have to deal with this just look at dslreports.com).

I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!

Re:Pay?

[Faulty Dreamer]

I would say the real reasons are probably:

A) Blind faith in all things Microsoft. Microsoft is what matters now. Anything else must just be a reactionary pile of shit (in their eyes).

And

B) Totally ignorance. The few people that have heard of Linux at all in these organizations have heard of it as a terrible hackers tool used to thwart big-businesses by avoiding paying for software. Not to mention that it comes with all sorts of evil software that can be used for hacking (cracking) systems, like compilers, network sniffers and port scanning tools. That little bit of knowledge is enough to scare the common manager into telling his underlings (in this case the service people) that Linux/BSD/etc. is evil and must be prevented from 'penetrating' their network.

@Home itself, on its pages does say that Linux is supported, but the @Home provider in this area, Midcontinent Communications is totally against it (at least from anyone they allow you to contact, that seems to be the case). They also have a web-form when you try to sign up online that allows you to choose between Microsoft Windows, Macintosh OS, and Other Operating System. But, if you choose other, you are directed to a page describing the terrible sins of us evil hackers and rejected from submitting your application until you choose Windows. If you choose Macintosh, they will accept it, but then someone will call you to tell you that their technicians will not be able to install your service and you must install Windows on your system (aren't these people even smart enough to know that a Macintosh can't run Windows?).

Anyway, after all that run-around (done on my wife's behalf when she wanted high-speed internet access to the family computers) we settled on a second dial-up account for our home (the one I usually use is on my laptop and doesn't allow multiple connections at once, I tried). So, they lose a potential customer. I probably would have dropped them at the slightest sign of trouble anyway after all the bullshit they put me through just trying to get signed up. So, it was no great loss. And as far as I'm concerned, the twenty minutes a week that my wife is on the Internet I doubt would be worth the extra $60 a month anyway.

Wireless broadband options?

[Isaac-Lew]

Where I live (a Washington DC suburb) DSL & cable are not options. What are the wireless broadband options (I tried looking on the Sprint site but I couldn't find it).

Three words...

[MsGeek]

...to put the fear of Goddess into the DSL CLECs, the ILECs, the Cable companies, and all the rest of these players in this sorry game...

WIRELESS LAST MILE.

It's coming, folks. Give it less than five years.

----
http://www.msgeek.org/ -- All your estrogen are belong to us!

Cox@home

[rhinoX]

For a long time I assumed that living in the "big" city meant that getting broadband was easier. HAHA. When I moved out to the sticks (deep, deep, DEEP east texas) for school I didn't think we'd ever see anything but a modem dial-up. (And we didn't until very recently). Well, for the last 9 months we've had Cox@home cable service, and it has been awesome. 1.5mb down / 128kb up. There has been one 6 hour outage since we got it, they let us do the install and don't ask any questions about what OS we're using it with. Oh yeah, this is only 30/mo as well.

Any guess why Verizon hasn't qualified me?

[ch-chuck]

I'm just under 12000 feet from a co I know has DSL service available (like where I work, which is even closer is loop qualified) - yet their web site sez it's not available at my address? Who do I have to bribe at Vrzn to get qualified already??

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[profrs]

Actually, they've tried to bill me twice in one month before, it seems like they're hiring the (mentally) handicapped for their billing department

DSL is a SNAFU

[LazyBoy]

Getting DSL usually involves coordination between three companies, the ISP, CLEC, and ILEC. It's not in the best interest of the ILEC to play well. When all the CLECs are bankrupt, they can sell DSL to their end users, meanwhile the end user gets lousy service. This is why cable modems are kicking DSLs ass with the end users.

The technology is good, but the whole industry is going down the drain because these politics make it hard to deploy. Some CLECs have recently filed bankruptcy. The DSL box companies are in trouble -- check out the stock performance for PDYN, CMTN and others. The DSL chip companies could very well be next.

le clue needed for you

[aeryn_sunn]

I had telocity, they completely sucked...
every Bell DSL and earthlink could not provide me with neither static IPs or nor could I have more than one computer hooked up at a time
so I finally, thankfully found speakeasy.net..they use covad and from the time I put my order in and it was finally hooked up was 14 days...did you read that??? 14 days...and I was able to get 5 (with up to 10) static IPs...it has been months and I never..ever have had a problem with Covad or speakeasy.net...none...
so, whatever ISP your worked for must of completely sucked from the get go..it is obviously your company did not know what they were doing...
frankly, I am thankful for speakeasy.net and covad..else, I would be stuck with lousy Telco DSL service..

Re:Kinda a pain in the ass, isn't it?

[saintlupus]

Trying to convince some minimum wage phone monkey that the problem is in their kit is a complete waste of time.

speaking as a "phone monkey," i'd have to say that dealing with some turd who downloaded red hat 7 and now thinks he's an extra-leet power user is just as irritating.

nothing against you personally, of course, but it really does bother the fuck out of me when customers assume that i'm a moron.

(maybe all the abuse has something to do with why nobody wants these jobs. nah.)

--saint
----

Re:Pay?

[MadAhab]

In the era where anyone can spend all day downloading stuff from Napster, this is, frankly, bullshit.

There is a constant problem getting qualified tech support for just Windows, so they really can't afford to have some dangerous freak sitting around waiting to get a phone call for Linux help. It's just about reducing

Since most cable ISPs cap upload speeds at far slower than the download speeds, they frankly don't have to care very much what software you are running, or worry about you "running servers" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Of course, to "install" the software (use DHCP; BFD), they "require" you to have Mac or Windows.

I've been through the process twice with Roadrunner. The first time, I let them do it on a Windows machine, and I dealt with FreeBSD later. But I realized it was a mistake to even mention my OS; I finally just let them think it was Linux. The second time, since I knew it is just DHCP, I "forgot to leave the laptop at home," and told them that "Roadrunner is already installed on my computer." They left a 6 inch patch cable as payback, so I just cut my own, and everything works just fine.

Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.

Re:http://www.telocity.com/

[Anonymous Coward]

I just cancelled my service with them myself. I was using PSN in Houston and they went out of business suddenly. Telocity swooped in to save the day, though, and I thought I was going to be ok. A month later Telocity still couldn't give me an answer on when it was going to be hooked up. I finally called RoadRunner and two days later it was done. Screw all those DSL guys pretending to have service and pretending to have their acts together.

Re:oh come on...

[jwsh]

Well, if you're going to hassle someone about "New England" not being a state, perhaps you might want to observe that New York is NOT located in New England, and we'd like to keep it that way. New England consists of: Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Conneticut, and Rhode Island. Not to mention that Verizon is still activly persuing their long distance bid in Massachusetts.

ad's

[Bender Unit 22]

A bit offtopic but,,
Ok, so I have learned to live with bannerads, always thinking, "there is no such thing as a free lunch", but almost everytime I click on a link to a news story on cnet like the one for this story, I get pages with ad's like on this page.
That totally destroys the readability of the page so even I say enough is enough and I almost always never click on the link if I see it point to cnet.
Anybody else feeling the same?

--------

Re:Comcast @Home

[pauldy]

I use AT&T in dfw and I have never had this problem. I called the other day and told them I was using linux and they just asked me if I knew how to use it to do various things we went through them I told them the output and they helped me get my setup fixed. Of course it was a router on their end down but at least they walked through the steps with me.

DSL in So. Cal.

[xkenny13]

Welp, I've been with DSL for nearly 2 years ... I got in real early and never had any "wait" problems on getting installed, and though the service was kinda "iffy" near the beginning, it's actually been quite solid for at least a year now.

However, due to some watering down of the news service: 128kbps connection, 2 connects max (was unlimited) on an outsourced SuperNews "corp" connection ... I decided to switch to a cable modem (Road Runner).

Now for the most part, the DSL service has been great!! The service provider is a small firm called MMInternet.com, but they do it right, and are really nice people.

On the other hand, the cable folks are $10/month cheaper, and their line runs nearly twice as fast!! Road Runner was rolled out here ~18 months ago so there's been plenty of time to saturate those lines ... so far, though, the speed is quite impressive.

The added bonus, of course, is that *their* news server runs at line speed, which is almost 10 times the speed I was seeing with the DSL account.

I'm actually sorry to leave the DSL guys, 'cause like I said, they're a really nice bunch ... however, they've also been promising an in-house news server for ~4-5 months "any day now", and the latest word is that it might still be a few months away.

As far as I know, they're not Covad related ... I know Verizon is in the pipe somewhere though ... dunno if that's better or worse.

Cable

[Krimsen]

I frankly think cable is the way to go. I live in Central Jersey and have CableVision's Optimum Online service. I live in a fairly well-to-do area (meaning most of my neighbors probably have cable) and I routinely get 100KB/sec transfer rates and I have hit as high as 350KB/sec and my HalfLife ping is normally 70 or less... All this while my father in the next town has DSL and _NEVER_ (not even at 3am) gets anything over 50KB/sec.

Re:Cable

[Wonko42]

There are so many factors DSL performance depends on that generalizing all DSL users and saying DSL is bad because your father can't get over 50Kb/sec is an invalid comparison. DSL speed varies with each user. For example, I have DSL and I regularly get a sustained throughput of up to 110Kb/s. It also has a lot to do with how much you're paying and the quality of your ISP.

--

Re:Cable

[ivan256]

That's lovely for you. I live in Hudson, MA which is also served by cablevision. However cablevision seems more interested in auctioning themselves off to the highest bidder then giving me a cable modem. When I called to ask how long it would be until the service was available the operator laughed and told me not to hold my breath.
Also, when you get lucky you can get DSL easily and fast. My mother (Aargh! What is she going to do with it!?!) Just got RADSL from SNET in connecticut, and she gets 5Mbit/sec! I've gotten 400Kb/sec from www.us.debian.org at her house.

The point is, you got lucky, and depending on where you are either DSL or cable will be better, but you can't just say "cable is better", or "DSL is better". They're just different.

Re:Cable

[tidge]

no. Cable IS better.
In Portland we are lucky enough to have both in most places. I've never seen any of my friends' DSL service keep up with my cable connection. Most of them have switched to cable now.
Hell, just go an napster and watch.
Cable will download/upload quicker every time.
But you're right either is better than a dial up.

I was a victim

[Razzious]

Covad pulled the disconnect stunt, although my DSL provider was not in finacial troubles. They and Covad had some dispute and I was left without service. I do know it was NOT finacial based on e-mail that was received from both parties.

I do know Covad did send out some e-mails with the DSL ISP I was using stationary. So to all the users it appeared it was from our ISP when in actuality it was from COVAD....I smell a lawsuit there.

Razzious Domini

Shocked my a**

[canning]

"We're shocked," said Melmed, who says his company was completely blindsided by Covad's action.

"We are in a situation where we need to make smart business decisions that will get us to profitability. We're not here to fund other people's businesses."

This is a perfect example of fast talking company representatives trying to manipulate the emotions of the public. The simple fact is that they aren't paying their bills. I can't imagine why they are shocked, possibly because their stalling techniques didn't work?

If someone was renting a portion of your home and they weren't paying the bills, you would certainly want them out. That's what happened here.

East Coast/West Coast thing?

[marshall11]

Why does it seem like getting DSL service to the average person on the West Coast is much more difficult than getting a reliable DSL connection on the East Coast. I know Verizon customers in New York frequently have problems, but when I was in Philly and now in Pittsburgh, my friends and I had very reliable DSL connections. The only problems we had were with confised billing departments and antiquated customer service systems - but that's another story.

Is it the fact that Verizon has such a strangle-hold on the DSL market out here? Can they squash out competition or problems quickly? Are end users the only people not paying them? Are they too afraid to drop providers who won't pay them due to the class-action lawsuit (check out: http://www.ihatethephonecompany.com) that's trying to be waged against them? Someone please elaborate.

Re:Good business technique

[SomeoneYouDontKnow]

No. Slamming is switching a customer without their permission. They can recommend you switch all they want, but it's ultimately the customer's decision. Look at it this way. Covad isn't disconnecting end users, it's disconnecting the ISPs. Big difference, and it's well within their rights to do so if the ISPs aren't paying. It'd be no different if an ISP's backbone provider or POP provider pulled the plug.

Re:DSL is dead

[Vodak]

that's all fine an dandy. but I live in this ghetto ass area in Cleveland where cable modem companies aint even planning on offering service in my area.

Re:Looking for a new DSL provider?

[FoulBeard]

speakeasy rocks.... They even have a litte coffee shop/cafe in seattle. Know a couple of the guys you work there. The people who run the tech really know what they are doing.

You can't beat a monopoly

[Weasel Boy]

Is there any hope of survival against the incumbent phone companies who will do
anything to squash competition?

No. As long as the company that owns the wires also provides service to customers, in the end they will always win because they can control how much their competitors must pay to reach the same customers -- and that's profit, too. Even a home-run success by a CLEC will ultimately just bankroll the ILEC's effort to wipe out the competition.

The only way we will ever see true competition in telephone service (or in electric or gas, for that matter) is to make sure that whoever owns the distribution infrastructure is not also competing to provide service to customers.

And the best way to ensure that the monopoly company that owns the infrastructure doesn't ream everybody is public ownership. For a good example of healthy competition via public infrastructure, consider the shipping business: Private carriers travelling on public highways.

Re:Good business technique

[pauldy]

I don't think so with this situation they cut off the providers because they weren't paying them. They are offering customer fullfilment for the unpaying providers by offering their customers service with another ISP who carries their service. It would be like a bell deciding the AT&T can't use their lines because they aren't paying cutting off there coverage and offering you to pick a different long distance carrier.

On the other hand I think it may be a bit subversive and Covad might be liable for damages to the ISPs and their customer base. There could also be some avenues explored further by some of the ISPs cut off like intortion of buisness by Covad. It could be spun into a Anti-Trust type suit against Covad.

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[ucblockhead]

Be carefull. They went for months without billing me, then one day figured it out and dropped a bill for six month's service on me.

Re:oh come on...

[BobGregg]

Heh... Ironically, I knew this. We had to work with several of NYNEX's old legacy systems, and their data (and often implementation) was internally divided up between New York and New England. Mea culpa.

Re:Comcast @Home

[IronChef]

When we signed up for @Home in Seattle I had to train my wife never to say anything like Mac, Linux, or BSD to their staff. I found out later that they are "tolerant" of alternative OSes, but I didn't want to take any chances. I even got a static IP too, but they just started trying to take it away. No exemption for Linux was mentioned. I will mention that that is happening in D/FW if they bring it up again.

The ToS don't let you run a server, but I am running a few Apache virtual hosts and getting sometimes 700+ unique visitors a day... If they do any kind of serious auditing, they'll find me sooner or later. Fingers crossed. I don't want the hassle or expense of switching to DSL.

I am also running my own mail server, because as you said, theirs sucks. Running your own internet services on your own hardware is a great experience. Couldn't live without it now.

Re:Pay?

[IronChef]

I think the reason is that the free Unix-alikes are complicated, and their monkeys can't handle the support. It would cost them more to train people, and develop documentation to support the non "mainstream" OS user. It is much easier and cheaper to blame every problem on the customer, pinning it on the OS choice.

As to more likely to run a server -- probably true as well.

Pacbell

[ericdano]

One more reason to switch to PacBell......

Well, maybe the ONLY reason. Pacbell certainly doesn't have the customer service, nor good install times (too me 6 months to get), nor reliable service (speeds can get damn slow sometimes)....

Maybe its time for cable?
--

Re:Pacbell

[kilgore_trowt]

Yeah, I've got PacBell. It took me FIVE calls (with about 30 min.- 1 hour on hold each time) to get them to get the order right.

I'm just praying nothing goes wrong 'cause I could get old real fast waiting to get it fixed.

Covad DSL

[zoobee]

I have been a Covad/SlipNet(gobbeled by Firstworld) customer eversince I dumped my ISDN two point five years ago or so.... At first I had the IDSL connection, then upped it to a 768/768 (xlate 680/680) bridged connection few months later. My experience has been nothing but great with both Covad and Firstworld. The outages, none lasting more than few hours, have been minimal, a number less than 10. Firstworld's tech support, based out of Fresno, has been great in resolving problems rather immediately. These problems ranged from accidently re-allocation of my IP-block, to an "accidental" deletion of my DNS entries etc..... Each and every time, a call to their DSL hotline was answered by a live person (they even answered at 3:00 AM one morning!). Once the problem was resolved they called back, each and everytime, and made sure that my service was up-n-running. And no I am not some ISP or mission critical customer, I am just a run-o-the-mill-broadband-junkie with couple of Linux servers and play/learn network at home. It is due to this reason that I have refused to move out of my place unless I find a place, something of a rarity in Silicon-No-Decent-Housing-Valley, where FirstWorld/Covad provides a similar rated connection. Maybe I am just lucky, or some karma thing, I just can't imagine life without DSL.... And for sure, never, ever, a 56K dial-up connection.... Covad's just been great for this PenguinHead.....

Conflict of interests

[ChaosMt]

Isn't this another example of the conflict of interests in the networking market? Hrmm...

ADSL vs. IDSL repeaters

[Dark Coder]

GoLong is a digital ADSL Repeater.

This involved the use of two ADSL chipsets to convert the analog signal to digital and then retransmitting it as analog.

SNET's problems, in short (==long)

[nealrs]

i am a SNET customer up in New Haven CT, I can tell you firsthand the dsHELL ive had with them, and WHY they have these problems. After waiting several years for broadband and then moving (pgh to new haven--- infinitily worse) I finally got in the install list for SNET, this alone took several months... When i finally got my circuit initialized which took months, I was introduced to pppoE. This is the devil, in fact it is Packetloss' evil brother. More on that later. The REASON SNET (Which is a SBC partner obviously...) is having these problems, is the OVERPOPULARITY of the service. Who doesent want this stuff? Super fast porn, warez, and the real legit applications of this technology too. Well they were SO oversubscribed and so underprepared that they were at 99% capacity. 99! what is the industry recommended capacity? They had one redback doing this entire region, if not more than one county. In any case, the service has improved considerably as the management realizes what they are up against. The opening of the lines to local competition (netplex,.... which is infinitley better) has caused them to react. However that does not stop the weekly outages of the PPPoE server. The techs who show up at your house (usually gratis too) understand our woes, and even they use the netplex option for service. They come in, look at the linksys box and smile. But harassing their techs and customer service (ASI) on the phone never works. the trick, just be nice, --- but reprimand them for their lazy performance. WE CAN improve our broadband, its a matter of tact and good suggestions, either that or just boycotting the service.. -n-rs-

Good business technique

[ca1v1n]

Before anyone goes ripping on these folks for screwing the end user, keep in mind that they're working to keep the end user hooked up. Of course this is self-serving, but it's their duty as a business. They had 14 DSL providers default on them last year, and they've got another 4 filing for bankruptcy. If they didn't do this, they could face a shareholder lawsuit. As for what DSLnetworks said about it being an attempt to bring in more customers, I would say that it is a perfectly valid effort to bring in PAYING customers. A customer is only a burden if the middle-man doesn't pay up. Sucks that it had to happen, for all involved, but it sound to me like they were well prepared and kept the end user in mind.

Re:Good business technique

[Squirrel Killer]

Do you mind if I ask how in the world Covad would be liable for damages (assuming that their side of the story is true)?

Let's say that I make notepads, I sell them to a re-seller who, in turn, sells them to the common folk and businesses that need notepads. This reseller stops paying me, so I stop giving him notepads, thus his customers stop getting notepads. Would I be liable for their not having notepads?

Will this be a repeat in BROADBAND in the future?

[rigor6969]

This is probably rampant at many isp's reselling dsl, wonder if its going to be the same with broadband under the deregulation? It's one thing to not pay your cable bill, but to not pay your Earthlink bill is a whole nother matter! More precisely, with the lack of leverage and initial heavy costs of broadband resale, VS the customer delinquent rates, going to make profits for the cable resellers pretty thin?

Re:What else can you do with deadbeats?

[daviddennis]

There is also the curious fact that people who get connections that don't work through Covad are not keen on paying their bills.

I am one of those customers; I have a bill of over $300 for bad service (the service literally has not been up for 24 hours without some sort of problem), and my provider (UUNET) is telling me not to pay it, and is getting me on to Rhythms.

I wouldn't be surprised if Covad still winds up billing UUNET for the "service" they gave me; it's just fortunate that UUNET is a company of exceptional financial strength (which also charges high fees so they can afford to eat them on occasion).

D

----

Re:Comcast @Home

[Faulty Dreamer]

I had problems with one dial-up provider in this area, but any others I've ever dealt with have been pretty good about dealing with Linux. They don't know it, but they accept it as long as I can take care of it and help them discover networking errors if I'm having problems. But when it comes to high-speed. Well, only @home is available in my area. As the local monopoly, they probably feel they can tell you anything they want, and you can either comply or go fuck yourself. Maddening, but I suppose they see it as justified. Maybe if there was local competition, but the cable companies would never allow that.

Covad helping people from other ISPs?

[antis0c]

Thats funny, I have a friend who had his Internet service through Flashcom, and Flashcom just recently filed Chapter 11, my friend went to Covads site to investigate on how to get another ISP, however Covads reponse was, "It is Covads policy not to allow customers to switch ISPs while their current ISP is in the process of filing Chapter 11", so he's stuck using a free dialup temporarly...

Re:DSL should go away anyway

[pauldy]

Duh and they are the ones going under for the most part. It's not a question of what I know but what they don't. And like I said before if you take the time to do a buiness plan look at your costs and charge your customers accordingly and offer a quality service people will use your service it is plain as that. There will always be people who think your prices are to high or that joe blow down the street is offering it for less. Let those customers use joe blow and run his buisness into the ground. Why shot yourself in the foot trying to please everyone and simply focus on a good product.

If your goal is to be another AOL by gaining market share as quick as possible the chances you are going to fail are high. Even AOL when it started charged us somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 dollars an hour to use their network over modem lines they leased from another provider. I can only imagine they were making money off that deal.

So while I'm not saying it is easy to do there is money to be made in this marlet you just takes work which many of these providers aren't willing to do they simply think more customers = a better company. I know this because I worked for a company who was charging 49.95 for dialup access they were offering litteraly down the street for 9.95 a month. You know what that company is still around today the other company filled for bankruptcy and sold their user base to another company to try and pay their creditors.

Now while I won't just write you a road map or a "how to" cause people get paid to do that stuff. I think there is more than enough information there to justify my earlier comments. Now if you want to pay me I will do the research required to show you the breakpoints to offer services in various markets and how to compete in those markets against the companies who are offering their products for a lower price.

Good

[festers]

I've been worried about Covad's finanical situation, especially since they have been providing me the best DSL service I've ever had for the past year. I switched from Ameritech DSL (In chicago) to Concentric (now XO) and I've never been happier. I'd hate to see all the bottom feeder ISPs drag down Covad by not paying their bills...I'm not going back to Ameritech.


--------

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[bubbasatan]

I'm glad to know so many people have been getting free service from those a**holes at Flashcom. I moved to a non-serviceable location several months ago, and according to Flashcom's terms, I was let out of their contract. Since then, I've been charged for seven months of service that I haven't used because I no longer live where their DSL was available. Now Flashcom doesn't answer their phones, they're in Chapter 11, and I'm out a bundle of money. I guess now I know that I've been paying for the other folks out there who use the service but don't get charged. Bloody communists.

What else can you do with deadbeats?

[Seinfeld]

Anyone who has had people owe them money knows how to spot a deadbeat. Covad knows their customers. I would not be surprised if most of the customers that Covad turned off were just trying to stall with "payment plan" negotiations they mentioned in the article.

If a customer is going to file bankruptcy in a few months, then if you wait to turn them off until then, you'll never see a dime. If you turn them off while they still need the service, then you stand a reasonable chance of collecting *something*. What Covad did is just good sense dealing with bad customers. Deadbeats in translucent-plastic, high-tech decor and stylish casualwear are still deadbeats. Cut 'em off.
-----------

Re:Why Covad?

[denjin]

Hmmm, could it be because Covad has to PAY QWest to provide you DSL? Also, where I live, the ILEC is Ameritech... They won't sell me static IPs or SDSL. Perhaps QWest is different, but I refuse to pay less and get dynamic IP address and PPPOE... BLECH

Re:DSL should go away anyway

[jafac]

No, we need DSL to stay, as an alternative to the other VERY SUCKY technologies currently available.

1. Dialup is just plain useless.
2. Cable is fast becoming a monopoly nightmare - I refuse to have anything to do with Cable companies because of the way they've handled my TV service in the past, obnoxious bundling, etc. that and the shared bandwidth, and security issues crap.
3. Satelite - obnoxiously expensive, high latency.
4. ISDN - astronomically expensive.

DSL CAN be done, cheaply and well. It's probably more of a regulatory problem now, than technical. It is the future of internet access, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, the teeming masses need something like cable. It's gotta be there, and frankly, it's nice that there's something that keeps the DSL people at least attempting to be on their toes. Eventually, this will work out, and we'll have a variety of decent, mature technologies to choose from.

The alternative was the nonsense we used to have, where it used to be cheaper to get a T1 than ISDN, and dialup was the only real alternative for people who weren't independently wealthy. And as I said before, dialup is completely useless. If there's a technology that NEEDS to go away, it's dialup. I can't believe I'm expected to pay $30 a month for the privilege of waiting 30-60 seconds to establish a connection that's slow and unstable as hell. Just fuck that.

Kinda a pain in the ass, isn't it?

[Greyfox]

When you know more about computers than the tech support reps of the company you're dealing with. Trying to convince some minimum wage phone monkey that the problem is in their kit is a complete waste of time. All you can do is ask to speak to their manager the moment they start to blow you off. Your only chance to get reasonable service is to make it clear you'll escallate to God Himself if they jerk you around.

Of course, you pretty much know what you're getting in to when you sign on with one of those retail ISPs. I'm sure most of @home's clientele wouldn't know a router from a roach clip, so they can afford to steal PFYs from the local MacDonalds to support them. And ultimately what does it matter if they piss off a few power users, that's not really their demographic.

That's why I did my research before I settled on Speakeasy. Sure I'm paying (a lot) more than your average @home user, but on the rare occasion that I've had questions, their guys have actually exhibited cluefulness. Their customer service has always been responsive, and they mostly leave me alone. That is worth the premium to me.

Re:oh come on...

[TandyMasterControl]

I can add anecdotal support to that.
I had Verizon DSL service enabled for a telephone line, but planned to use a local ISP.
I researched as much as I could about DSL installation before committing. This phoneline has a alarm service on it which I figured was a complicating factor; and about a year before ordering DSL a grey NID box was put on the outside of the house to enable 2 phone lines, another complication. From Verizon's own online information it appeared mandatory to me that we would have a splitter installed in the grey NID outside the house. I asked them several times before committing for the one year contract if I needed the expensive, supervised installation with a splitter outside. Oh no, they said, you install it all yourself and use microfilters on all the phones in the house. No splitter.
Install kit eventually arrives I install it all and get my DHCP based account with local ISP going, no problems. But within a week the loop dies. Not just that, but it dies without setting off any diagnostic lights on the DSL bridge. Nice trick! 5 days later it did it again.
And so it went for months, loop never lived longer than about a week, sometimes dieing once a day, or twice. Diagnostic lights never showed any problem. Meanwhile I am troubleshooting my balls off, talking to my ISP, talking to Verizon, getting advice from professional networking people, trying different configurations, DHCP clients, switching hardware, even trying it with shudder Windows (UGH! There's a measure of just how desperate I was - I actually tried Windows, which, it turns out, has its own layer of lawsuit-bait bugs in DHCP!)
Nothing is working. I have tried EVERYTHING imaginable to fix the problem. So I am begging Verizon to put a splitter in because they are starting to acknowledge that there may be a problem with that particular model of DSL-to-Ethernet bridge and a line like mine with alarm system, NID, etc... Guy comes out in a Verizon truck and REFUSES to install the splitter. This after I was told he was coming out to do exactly that and that it would actually cost me nothing. What was his reason?
Oh you're on that ISP! well that's never going to work, splitter or no splitter. I could hook you up right in our CO with one meter of copper to the DSLAM and you're still going to have the same problem as long as you have that company for your ISP. He leaves after swapping out the DSL bridge which we both know isn't what he was sent out to do.

Couple of more months of shit service go by. I call to raise hell with Verizon for, no exaggeration, the 20th time. They send a truck out the next day to put in splitter. PROBLEM DISAPPEARS. (Hasn't been seen in a month.)
Now thanks to The Register I find out that same week that my buddies at Verizon are being sued for shitty/fruadulent DSL / ISP service.

People complain about class-action tort lawyers suing companies to get rich, well here's to tort law! and here's hoping Verizon make those lawyers rich forever so that their grandkids and great-nephews and nieces can drive around in solid gold Mercedeses !

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[dfenstrate]

384 kbps is about right for 16 kft from the office. I work in a dsl testing lab, and you usually don't get even near 1.5 Mb's after about 12- 13 kft. Maybe your neighbor is on a different set of wires.

Re:oh come on...

[BobGregg]

>>These numbers are before the FCC right now and
>>investigations are underway into the Bell's
>>attempts to destroy the three major DSL
>>companies. Why do you think Verizon dropped
>>their long distance application in New England?

I used to work for Verizon (Bell Atlantic at the time). I was team lead for a software project team that implemented one of their gateway systems, i.e. the systems outside organizations - CLECs, whatever - have to call to access the ordering and preordering facilities. I can just about guarantee you that DSL has either marginal or no relationship with why VZ dropped their LD bid in New England.

According to FCC whim, VZ has to pay huge - literally humungous - per day fines if they miss performance penalties on any of a couple dozen possible transactions they support. Those fines are per state. VZ has had serious internal problems meeting those requirements - and not due to anything sinister either, it's just very hard to meet the performance requirements in particular. God knows we all worked our asses off day and night trying to get our systems in shape to get LD in New York. Believe me, most of the folks there *want* to compete - in fact they're quite eager for it. But the requirements change so fast and are so stringent that it has been next to impossible to get it all done. In some cases, the requirements have just capriciously changed with next to no notice. You try meeting dot-com-style deadlines - court-imposed ones, no less - in a Baby-Bell-style bureaucracy. Good luck!

Fortunately for them, those fines I mentioned don't get activated until the day the FCC gives final approval in that state. In some cases, that means that if their LD applications *had* been approved, they'd suddenly be liable for, oh, say a couple million per week in fines, regardless of whether they were actually in business there or not. Needless to say, they've yanked some of the applications. Gee, go figure. DSL does play into that, but it isn't just the provisioning that's the problem; the IT side of it, from where I sat, was even worse.

Incidentally, LD applications are done by state, and "New England" isn't a state, so where are you referring to - Massachusetts, perhaps? VZ already has LD in one New England state, New York; the system I helped develop helped them meet the requirements to get that.

Re:Pay?

[TandyMasterControl]

At what point do these monopolies become subject to (Clayton?) anti-trust laws prohibiting discriminatory practices? Here is a f100 company that refuses to sell you their service technical compatibility notwithstanding, unless you put money in the pockets of a major partner and shareholder in their company. (and don't tell me MS Shit works better at broadband networking I know too much about the typical troubleshooting questions and practices tech support staffs put you through with Windows eg run -&gt regedit -&gt remove brain_in_ass Win98 bugs creating a persistant desired IP addr from the fucking registry! Unbefuckinglievable! Someone has the gall to charge for a shit OS like that !) Hello JUstice Department? Where the fuck are you? Well, hopefully only 3.9xx years to go.

Covad's not entierly blameless

[taustin]

Yesterday, I faxed off the contract to switch to a Rhythm's Network account because Covad has managed 4 outages in the last week and a half, two of them over 10 hours.

Safety Net?

[mach-5]

How can one check out the "Safety Net" website if they don't have internet access?

Definitely a good idea

[NotAnotherReboot]

Covad definitely isn't at fault for anything. It's just play good business sense. If you keep loaning money to someone and they can never pay you back, do you keep giving it to them? Of course not. Sort of like a credit history, if they can't pay then don't give them loans. One of the ISPs said that they had a deal with Covad on a plan to make payments and that they were dropped without warning. Maybe Covad just got it through their heads that they couldn't wait for other businesses to fix their mistakes. Perhaps Covad is on a road to business recovery here.

Why Covad?

[chuckw]

When I called Covad a year ago asking about DSL, they offered me less bandwidth at a higher cost than my CLEC *and* they said they'd take three times longer get it installed. Thanks but no-thanks. I ran down the offer QWest gave me with the Covad operator and asked her to explain why I should go with Covad over QWest. She was quiet for a second and then piped in with their service level guarantee. The SLG basically says I'm entitled to a porportional amount of my subscription cost back for any downtime. My response was BFD.

I went with QWest for my local loop and chose a different company to be my ISP. In the last year I haven't seen a single outage! I pay less and get more bandwidth and couldn't be happier.
--
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
25: ten.knilrevlis@wkcuhc

DSL's cool, the middle men suck.

[jon_c]

the problem with dsl is that it's hard to get going, and if something goes wronge it's hard to find someone to take responsibility.

trying to get dsl in the UT area of austin is a so painfull that wardens in a turkish prison wouldn't use out of humanity for the prisoners.

I spent 2 months on a dial up waiting for southwestern bell, covard, and speakeasy to hold hands. then called road runner and they set me up the next day!

-Jon

Streamripper

Re:DSL's cool, the middle men suck.

[FoulBeard]

By the same token you have some good ISP you have their shit together (like speakeasy in Seattle). Speaking of DSL we got our lines upgraded, and we know get a solid 160K/sec Kilobyte a second not kilobit.

Complain to Utilties Commission About RBOCs

[alteran]

I've noticed A LOT of folks here complaining about the RBOCs-- Verizon, USWest, etc. Several folks have commented about how the FCC does nothing.

The FCC does not have enforcement authority for DSL! Call your state Utilities Commission!

I've had a NIGHTMARE install here in North Carolina and finally called the FCC, which is how I found out they had no authority. They referred me to the Utilties Commission. Within one day I had an apologetic Verizon representative on the phone, after getting stonewalled for weeks. She called all sorts of people, got me the names of various people responsible for my local CO and followed up with them. FWIW, I still don't have DSL-- the DSL lines in my area are oversold and EVERYONE is waiting for new lines-- including Verizon. But I got the very clear impression that Verizon took complaints to the Utilities Commission very seriously.

Re:Complain to Utilties Commission About RBOCs

[astar]

In the state of Washington, you can make your utility complaint using an on-line form. I encourage people to complain early and often. My experience is that it is useful.

I thought DSL reports would make it easy

[LennyDotCom]

I researched for a provider on DSLreports and found the best rated one in my area they had a great price. I even called their tech support to see how long it would take in case I needed them they anwsered right away with a real person I was really happy So I ordered 2 installs one at my biz and one across town I payed for the setup total $700 back in september last week after I can't rember how many calls I still don't have service so much for DSL reports as far as I'm concerned getting DSL is pure luck

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[Pedersen]

I've got that beat, I think. I've had an email account active at a dial up ISP which has changed hands at least twice since I signed up. However, I've not paid them in over five years (and the ownership changes were after that point).

I don't feel so bad...

[Saige]

I don't feel so bad now not knowing what's going on with my service - at least I still have mine.

I signed on to Phoenix Networks back last summer. After the 2 months to finally get it installed, it's been fine. However, Phoenix got bought up by MegaPath and supposedly all the residential customers are being migrated to Telocity (this bugs me, I intentionally avoided them because of negative reviews on DSLreports.com). I'm supposed to receive a new DSL modem, and such.

However, I haven't received my modem, I haven't had responses relating to one of the phoenix e-mail addresses not working, and seem to have been ignored. I don't know if I'm just going to find my DSL not working one of these days, or what is going to happen. (They did take like 4 months to finally start charging me for the service, I need to see if they're still charging or not)

I just want to KNOW where things are going, dang it!
---

oh come on...

[Rombuu]

Is there any hope of survival against the incumbent phone companies who will do anything to squash competition?

Is it really the incumbent phone companies fault that these new guys apparently don't know how to run a business?

Re:oh come on...

[AFCArchvile]

New York isn't a part of New England. I should know; I live in Natick, Massachusetts.

Geeze, no wonder Verizon's going to hell in a handbasket, all of their techs failed geography in elementary school!

Looking for a new DSL provider?

[abischof]

If you're looking for a new DSL provider, I'd highly recommend checking out DSL Reports. In the DSL Finder section, you can even search for DSL providers by Zip Code.

And, no, I don't work for them, but I did find my current DSL provider (CapuNet, which I'm very pleased with) through this method.

Alex Bischoff
---

Re:Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[jafac]

IDSL isn't really DSL now, is it.

It's some fucked-up ISDN hack designed to help DSL grab marketshare. But they can't charge DSL prices for it, because it's ISDN.

This has been planned for a while.

[UnifiedTechs]

Covad has been planning this for a few months, Last year they had around $179 million in accounts recievable, and over $11 million is uncollectable, I don't blame covad one bit for doing this, and they are trying to make it as painless for the customers involved as possible, kudos to covad, I don't blame them at all, if they had let this continue think about if they went out of buisness and the number of people that would be affected.

Re:attn: AFCArchvile

[AFCArchvile]

It was so bad, I cancelled it on Halloween Night. Every 30 minutes, it would disconnect for no reason at all, regardless of the amount of network activity (most of the time it would disconnect in the middle of Counter-Strike). By mid-October, the routing on Verizon's side had gone haywire, and on the Saturday before Halloween, I couldn't connect for 2 hours (and then for only 10 seconds, after which I was plunged into another hour of "Request timed out.").

Needless to say, I now have Covad (though it took 69 days to get it running), and it's much more reliable than the Verizon DSL ever was.

DSL should go away anyway

[Ben Schumin]

I for one am in favor of DSL going away. People are expecting way too much service, for far too small of a price for the this system to afford to keep up.

The internet wasn't designed with the expectation of every single end user having a 1.5mbit connection. In addition, few ISPs actually have the bandwidth necessary to fully support all the bandwidth their customers are paying for.

It's a big mess, and the fact that it hasn't failed completely already shows that the dot com bubble hasn't completely burst yet. The reason why most regional ISPs haven't been paying their covad bills is that it's nearly impossible to make a profit with dsl service.

Additionally, it's not very conceivable that a startup can offer dsl service. The startup costs are far too high, and with the digital economy on a downturn, venture capitalists want to see profit very quickly. A DSL service provider just cannot offer that.

So, I wish DSL would just go away completely, it's making an already shaky industry look even worse than it already is.

Re:Pay?

[jafac]

heh - Pacific Bell treats me a bit more nicely. They freaked out when I told them I was connecting through a LinkSys router - and made me take it out of the equation, and I had to install PPPoE Enternet back on my machine, a Macintosh (another "hairy scary" deal) - and they also didn't like me running Mac OS X; but by the time I had set things up the way that made support happy, THEIR server problem mysteriously went away, and I was able to connect. I uninstalled Enternet, and reconnected the router, and had it connect to PPPoE again, and it worked, after 3 solid days of not working, tweaking, resetting, firmware updating, etc. So the problem was not on my end.

I've done software phone support for 9 years, and I've learned that the first thing you do is figure out the technical level of the customer before you say or do ANYTHING. And if they're competent, don't fuck with them.

This happend to my over the New Year!!

[tester13]

Covad pulled the plug on my ISP Internet Express. I received a letter in the mail telling me that my service would be discontinued in the on the first of the year and that they had set up a safety net program to help current DSL subscribers handle the switch. Knowing the potential problems with DSL support, I immediately tried to get my service switched to another provider. Speakeasy was supposedly the only ISP Covad had an agreement with in which I would be able to continue use of static IP address. Unfortunately during the transition Covad allegedly grabed my circuit and I was without service for about a month. I now pay more for my ISP and am provided roughly the same service (plus shell account). I reacted as soon as possible to try and avoid this situation but unfortunately it was for nothing

the DSL thing sucks all around

[20000hitpoints]

I went, unwillingly, with Verizon because I gave up on Covad, C. couldn't even manage to get a representative to my apartment because the big V wouldn't let them send a Covad-human before they got a chance to send their own Verizon-human, to "check my wiring" or something. But when I went through V. directly they just sent me a kit in the mail, no humans (ever heard this? "Our service technician will be coming to your house sometime between 7:00 am and 8:00 pm. Please be there to answer the door.") Also, the V-human really took his Time-izon showing up, in fact me and my wife took turns staying home all day two days in a row and the guy didn't show. The real problem was that V wouldn't let C do line-sharing (phone traffic and DSL over same line). Also I think they allocate their stupidest humans to do the "wire checking" and confuse them before they leave the central office in a subtle attempt to undermine their mission. Correction: the guy did show the first day, but he just wandered around my house for a while in a puzzled way and finally said he had to bring back his associate.

The only reason it's not illegal is that nobody understands why it should be. Anyway, so now I have this service that really sucks. This is also what I get for being a cheap bastard and wanting to pay only $50 for a DSL modem in a promotional deal. I guess I shouldn't be b*tching since there are people who can't get DSL service at all. The whole thing is depressing, though, and I am probably too resigned about it because I could probably find better service if I really looked around.

Covad need some pimping lessons.

[SpanishInquisition]

Maybe if they weared the proper clothing and maybe a nice flashy hat (don't forget the platform boots), and had a the good attitude, they would learn how to convince ISPs to give them the proper share of the revenues that they are generating.

Repeat after me: "My bitch better have my money!!"

DSL Whores

Re:http://www.telocity.com/

[malachid69]

What is the deal with Telocity? I emailed questions to them like 5 times, each time pointing out that the answers would determine whether I went with them or someone else. I never got a response.

Finally, I wrote an email complaining about never getting a response. I got an email back with someone assigned to be my personal rep.

I called that person and explained my questions. They were really helpful and said that they would email me the answers the next day.

That was 3 weeks ago or so. No emails. I have called 3 times since -- just answering machine.

Are they severly swamped, or just don't care about their customers? I have been working on getting hooked up through them for 3 months yet and they STILL haven't answered my basic questions about their EUA.

no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[dogas]

For over a year I've been receiving free service from flashcom. Occasionally, they would give me a call stating how much I owe, and I continually said, "send me a bill and I'll pay it". They never send me a bill. They do send me newsletters, so they know where I live, and currently, I still have service as if nothing happened. Did I fall through a crack or what? How many others aren't paying a dime for flashcom's service? Is it any wonder they went bankrupt?

Re:no wonder flashcom is bankrupt...

[Jimmy_B]

Did I fall through a crack or what? How many others aren't paying a dime for flashcom's service?
It seems that Flashcom managed to seriously screw up their billing software, so many (most?) of their customers were never being billed. I had Flashcom's service for a year and never payed for any of it, and was switched to a different provider when Flashcom went under. Considering that they weren't billing their customers, it's no surprise they went under.
------------------
A picture is worth 500 DWORDS.

Re: DON'T go back to Verizon!

[AFCArchvile]

Sure, your routers could log in to the PPPoE system, but what will you do when Verizon boots you off every half-hour? Your router will have to log in again. And again. And...

Take it from me, Verizon is a non-option. Until they learn that they're doing it all wrong, the DSL world will forever have a scar on its chest. A big, V-shaped scar...

List of Utilities Commissions in the US

[drinkypoo]

here

--
ALL YOUR KARMA ARE BELONG TO US

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[dohnut]

Is it possible the speeds you were quoted were for ADSL? SDSL has a greater range than ADSL. But at 16000 feet 384Kb SDSL is about the best you can get. So I can understand your situation. What I don't understand is how your neighbor is getting those speeds at 16000 feet. Maybe your neighbor is hooked to a CO that is closer and owned by the same company, but just not available to you (for whatever reason)? Either that or his line quality is insanely good.

Re:GO KILL YOURSELF, WANNABE TOOL BOY

[metaph0r]

gee, I don't recall claiming cl00.
Which part of NO ACCESS TO THE COPPER wasnt clear?
I also didnt think my landlord would appreciate me ripping the POTS jack out of the wall to experiment. (Especially since the Covad guy had just specifically wired a pair to a separate wall jack.)
I also somehow think that the bitrate is gonna suffer from homemade Tim the ToolMan re-wiring jobs.

If YOU want to fuck around with live power, you go right ahead. Sounds like the right amount of chlorine in the gene pool to me.

Re:Pay? @Home Does Allow Linux

[Faulty Dreamer]

That might be dependant on the area you are in. I know I live in the bum-fuck middle of nowhere (midcontinent is the provider of @home service if that tells you anything) and the very concept that someone would do something different (i.e. evil) is just completely beyond them. The above quoted conversation was exactly as it happened. They refuse to even talk to me if I bring up the L(inux) word. Either I can install Windows, or I can fuck off. Which is fine, I don't have any problem just ignoring them. Supposedly sometime in the next three to four years the idiots in charge of telco will complete the upgrade and DSL will be available to me. But it is galling that two blocks away it is available relatively cheap, but I'm 'outside' the service area. Woopee!

Re:I still think the DSL companies are a conspirac

[tidge]

Amen!

Comcast @Home

[miracle69]

I live in Mobile, AL and I have Comcast@home running through Linux. Customer support sucks if you need it, but they are tolerant of linux. In fact, their 888 number (which took me about 20 minutes to find and is 888-793-0800) has 3 selections on their menu.

1) Windows
2) Macintosh
3) Other Operating System

Not that pushing 3 was any help.

In general, I have been pleased with my connection. I was regularly getting 500+kb/s down and 128kb/s up. Kicked ass.

However, today the service is 80/16 - and I can't get anyone to explain why. I called customer service and they were clueless. I've run across a few more @home users in the southeast U.S. who have reported the same thing. Anyone know what is up? Tech support is 888-793-0800. They wouldn't support their line because I was running Linux. Pretty much, they told me to fsck off and hung up.

The @Home Tech Support People Snoop, etc

[citizenc]

When the @Home tech came to my house to install my cable modem, he was quite friendly. While I watched him work, he did not poke at my files, explore anything out of the network settings, and that was it. He was quite helpful and friendly.

HOWEVER, when I was having problems with my modem constantly dropping, I called @Home and had them send a tech over, who was, for lack of a better word, a complete prick. He came in, sat down at my computer, and proceeded to go through the "My documents" (yes, I use Windows on this box. No flames please.) folder. When he heard me go "ummm.." he clicked down to Control Panel, and went and started fucking around with my network configuration, even before he asked me what the problem was. It was attrocious -- I take my computer to LANs all the time, so I have a few extra protocols, etc installed. He, without asking me, proceeded to remove ALL of them, except the ones that are required for the service. Naturally, I lost all the settings.

It was awful. Plain and simple. Anybody else have a similar experience?

------------
CitizenC

Take it up the tailpipe

[prisoner]

that's what the little DSL companies are doing. So are the consumers. Covad took Bell Atlantic to court over this fucking foot dragging and it didn't help. My wife works for a DSL company and they are giving us a free 1.5mb line on monday. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...the Verizon shitheads haven't even been here to bring a new line out. Oh? you didn't know? Can't use the same line twice if you're changing providers! What kind of fucking rule is that????? Same thing as the last DSL install, Covad rolls out on the right day, right time. Verizon is nowhere to be seen for a month afterward. It's bullshit and I'm sick of it. Verizon has TWICE (2) installed phone and dsl lines intended for my house on the house accross the street!!!!!!! Both houses have nice big address signs. I fucking hate the big phone companies, I hope that someday I can return to them the level of service I get.....assholes.

end rant

Those terrible commie incumbents

[BeardStreet]

I like the way the poster further hands off the blame on the incumbents. DSL is a difficult business, especially on the plant side with all of the copper uncertainties out here (bridge taps, coils, etc). A lot of these CLECs came in off their IPOs and thought they could quickly make a bucket of cash without a clue about the issues involved. Have you thought of blaming them for poor management? What about the crappy CLEC customer service? Shouldn't they have used some of their IPO money to staff people that could answer questions, rather than buy luxury boxes at sports arenas? The poster took the easy way out by poking the incumbents, but I believe that many of the problems were brought on by the CLECs and DSL ISPs themselves.

when resellers try to hoodwink the media

[lupa]

from the article:

Melmed says that DSLnetworks was meeting its previously agreed payment schedule to Covad. "The bottom line is this: We had a deal worked out with Covad, and they're reneging on that deal," he said.

for some reason, this sounds suspiciously like a "the check's in the mail" situation. if DSLnetworks truly had an operable deal with Covad, i can't imagine why Covad would cut them off. They make it perfectly clear earlier in the article that they're doing this because they can't afford to "carry the deadweight," as they put it. it would be in their interest to recoup their loss, and any decent repayment plan should address that issue.

i think, if i didn't have a really wonderful experience with speakeasy, i might be more sympathetic. but right now i'm hoping that Covad does as much of this as they need to - even if it includes me!

Pacific Bell is a solution? I don't think so

[emufreak]

I petitioned Pacific Bell in 1999 with tons of names of people in my town who all wanted DSL, and what have they done? Jack shit. The same thing goes for TCI (now AT&T Cable). 5000 people obviously isn't enough to warrant putting in a few DSLAMs or for TCI to upgrade their shitty cable system. And because I live behind a big old hill, I can't get Sprint's wireless broadband. I've given up on getting fast Internet access at a reasonable price.

Sign the petition to end PPPoE!

[AFCArchvile]

Click here to sign the petition against Verizon, Southwestern Bell, PacBell, and EarthLink. I call upon them to replace PPPoE with DHCP!

Covad is always gonna be a CLEC.

[metaph0r]

Until something major changes in the national telco structure, Covad's always going to be playing catch-up to the local RBOCs. I tried getting Covad/Speakeasy DSL when I first moved to Seattle, in an apartment building less than 5000 feet (yes, you read that right) from the CO, well within SDSL range. The Covad tech did all the inside wiring he could, but after an hour of head-scratching and calling his office to have tests run, his hands were tied because USWest had inexplicably installed copper taps that boosted the voltage on the line to boost the signal. Now, why there would need to be *any* voltage on SDSL (dry copper) is beyond me. It still took Covad 2 months of hassling USWest before they'd even agree to come out and futz with the copper going to my building. No one in my neighborhood should have needed a tap like that, but it was undoubtedly just something they put in place to stymie competition from CLECs like Covad. Between Covad, Speakeasy(who were very responsive and kept me in the loop, but were helpless to change the situation), and USWorst, it was going to be at least 3 months before any bits were gonna pass on that copper. The day I accepted this fate, a @Home flyer appeared in my mail announcing that they had service in my area. I called, and 6 days later had cable modem in my house. They even ran 20 feet of coax and drilled into the next room so that I could have the access in my office instead of my bedroom. Sure, you can't host a server off @Home, but for a single user, it's crazy fast, and I could count on my fingers the nuimber of times it's blinked out. (even after there was a fire in my building!)

Dumping slackers

[banuaba]

I feel a lot of sympathy towards Covad. If someone was not paying me for my services, I would stop providing them. The customers who chose these slacker ISPs are, unfortunately, SOL, but at least Covad is refering them to other providers who pay for what they use.
As for the other comment, some CLECs seem to be doing alright. I work for one, and we showed a billion dollars in revenue our first fiscal year, which isn't too shabby. It is, though, an uphill battle, fighting the incumbent LECs for network access and customer mindshare. I think that as more and more CLECs/Data/Long Distance providers come into play with these huge fatpipe networks, it will become more and more profitable and that will bring more and more CLEC/D/LD folks into the game. And competition can't be a bad thing. Right?

Brant
Brant