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HP Ditching WindowsCE for Linux on Jornada?
An anonymous reader sent in linkage to a story talking about HP ditching WinCE for Linux on their Jornada handhelds. As cool as that would
be, I'm gonna seriously doubt that its gonna happen. But if they did,
I'd have to buy a jornada.
One of those machines makes a lot more sense for things like news reading, browsing, etc than my pilot - which is useful for PIM functions and games because it's always with me in a pocket. The combination of a palm and a jornada is something I've missed since I sold my 100LX.
I want to shut this thinking down now - HP had one of the best PIM packages I've ever used developed in house for their 100/200LX units, and porting that or implementing it in linux would not be that difficult. The Jornada is much more "general purpose" than a handheld device, and I suspect this is why WinCE is falling flat on it's face - I want to be able to do my own stuff, and WinCE is too limited (as is PalmOS, in this application, IMHO. I'd rather linux or even DOS (like the 100LX).
Go HP!
..don't panic
"As cool as that would be, I'm gonna seriously doubt that its gonna happen."
<p>So why do you doubt that it's gonna happen? Don't you think that Linux is a better choice?
<p>Here's the thing: HP is big enough that if putting Linux on a handheld will save them money or improve their product, they won't be so scared of MS to not do it. By far the biggest reason that they would stick with WinME is that it makes economic sense for them, on a large scale. If you doubt that it's 'gonna happen,' then it implies that you either don't understand this, or don't think that Linux is a better product.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I had to reset my Palm three or four times while I owned it.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
True, but the GNU toolset wasn't forked from BSD under any stretch of the imagination either.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Have you SEEN PocketLinux and the similar competing handheld Linux flavors? This is NOT just a bastardhack -- it's quite usable. I'd rather code for PocketLinux than PalmOS any day (yes, I've coded for PalmOS, I know what it's like).
-John
Brian - you seem to forget one thing...
... you guessed ... Linux
If HP is moving to the Linux way, and you suggest that they'll go with Minix - they'll have a problem..
1. How many processors Minix support? HP ic clearly is not designing it for the next month to put it out - but maybe a year or 2 - so chances are slim to find that your Unix variant runs on those processors - unless it's Linux or a BSD variant..
2. HP will surely not going to write all those applications from scratch. I'm sure that they'll license those apps from 3rd party company, and most chances are that those companies have those apps either for Palm OS/Windows CE or
Hetz (Heunique)
I'd give HP kudos if they released the information to get Linux and XWindows running on the Jornada, but IIRC, the projects to get it running haven't met with much success. An officially endorsed version would be just as good as them going out and switching it themselves, which is what I'd rather see. Getting all the functionality working smoothly is a bigger task than I think it would be at first glance. (Sound & Video, especially).
..don't panic
I think that the Slashdot forums assume enough education in thier readers that they can detect bias on thier own. There is nothing wrong with supporting an OS that you like on a handheld device. Some rant "no applications", but that is just an opportunity for developers. For myself, I don't need a handheld device, so the ONLY way I would EVER buy one is if it came preinstalled with Linux.
My Blog
Hey HP !
/.
.18) will run al blistering speeds and consume no power at all.
We want the successor to HP 200 LX - the BEST Jornada ever.
The 200LX was an 8Mhz 80186 (286 without the MP support) with 1, 2 or 4 Mb of ram, 3.3V PCMCIA slot, serial & infrared port. 2 weeks standby/6-8 usage on 2 standard AA cells.
We want the 400LX to be an 486sx or smth wth an IBM microdrive (or SANdisk) so we can run ANYTHING WE DAMN PLEASE ON IT ('cept w2k and ME which require pentium) and still to fit in the pocket.
Want Linux - install your fav distro. Want 95 ? ok. Want NT - fine but slow.
Don't tell-me it can-t be done - you have seen that PC105 (or smth) linux-server-on-a-matchbox here on
A 486 cpu built with today's technologies (.25 or even
--
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This would have happened already if it weren't for the non-flashable roms that come with the commerical version. I know institutions with other versions afoot that already have linux going.
The ipaq has linux running beautifully.
But why? Why bother?
Simple... control.
Disregarding the shrinkwrap B.S., my view of the world is I bought these devices and they are mine to use as I see fit. My intention for the jornada is to have a sysadmin tool of amazing proportions and the funny thing is that the ipaq shows how absolutely right that would be... I ssh into my ipaq which is running wireless (802.11b). The ipaq does xwindows and many people are writing excellent apps to support it.. mostly open-source. If I want to add a new feature to the python-office stuff being done, I can. No waiting or applying to some company to become a registered developer. I have the freedom and means to make a direct impact on the fuctionality of these devices.
As I type this, JFFS is being added to the ipaq.. some already have it working. It is clear that there is *nothing* that couldn't be run on the ipaq that runs on any other linux device.
And my Jornada.. well I made an effort to boot off compact flash cards and have pasued the effort.. but flashable roms are the real answer.. I bought it for the hardware capabilities; not to get locked into an opsys that makes me "wince". Last year I sent a number of e-mails to HP personnel and engineers lamenting the bygone days of HP's excellent support for their calculators and HP100/200 handhelds.Hopefully this is a step back toward a company who supports hardware openly. If there are any questions on "how", examine Compaq (never thought I'd type that :)
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Linux is simply too effin' big for a single user, (cmon, its SUPPOSED to be tiny,) hand-held that doesn't need NFS, sendmail, Apache, and bazillion languages, (I can just imagine trying to configure x86 for a 160x160 screen,) yaddah, yaddah...
That's not to say that the core functionality wouldn't be good but realistically, we're looking at a badly forked core with interoperability ports, not the full blown Linux.
Might as well work with Palm to help it happen rather than trying to compete with them. (Competition: Doing it the hard, expensive way. Cooperation: Doing it the Linux way.)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
It's still ugly, just not as bad as it used to be. It still lacks the seamlessness of the Palm, and it's still obviously Windows.
/Brian
I can only assume this irrational urge to run Linux on every computer is the same urge that causes them to place 5 litre engines in their cars.
If the motorways in Britain weren't so congested, cars weren't the most expensive in the EU and the price of petrol wasn't close what most people call extortionate, you'd probably want a big fsck-off engine in your car too. It makes driving a hell of a lot more fun that whatever little hot hatch is in favour in the UK these days.
Sounds like jealousy to me.
I may be alone in this. But I use my Palm Pilot and Apple Newton (thats right, you heard me) as VT100 terms. When I'm weazeled back in the server room I cant lug a Wyse term with me. Being able to plug into a serial port and get to the command line of one of the BAS (Big Ass Sun) systems is an invaluable tool. If they can add an X server to a plam sized device I'll be very happy. But in truth I've not seen a palm sized device with high enough resolution to make it worth while. Still, one can hope.
My understanding is that Minix is essentially a microkernel architecture. They could work down from there. /Brian
You know, those techniques are used here in the USA too.
Judging by car sales figures for the UK and your comment, I can only assume that most of the population of the UK is not in its right mind.
Have a nice day.
Who cares about the OS? In the handheld world it's the applications that run on top of it that matter. If HP release a handheld with a sucky set of applications then it won't matter a fig whether the thing is running WinCE or Linux underneath.
But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.
How many more times are we going to have to hear the editors make irrational propaganda comments like this? Why do you people insist on blindly supporting any product that uses a linux distribution?
Sure, it's great to have a "favorite OS" that you support and promote. But to have the power of being able to make a comment that will be seen by tens of thousands of people, you should have more editorial ethics than to make statements like this. When will Slashdot grow out of this ignorant infancy and become a truly UNBIASED forum for discussion?
http://www.hp.com/jornada/products/newsroom/others /notice_proposal.html
Either FIX the fucking "Extrans," or get rid of the damned thing!
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.
Just because it would then be running Linux? Whatever happened to wanting/buying the best tool for the job?
This reminds me of an old saying:
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
--
If you are already fully in Microsoft land, maybe the thought of running PocketOffice gets you really excited. As for me, there are a lot more Linux applications I want to run on a handheld than there are WinCE applications.
*LOL*
Don't get me wrong...I fully see Linux's appeal as a free operating system.
I *don't* see how these other arguments really apply though...
"easily be tweaked"... Custom hardware means custom programming. Not impossible, but not a walk in the park, surely.
"Windows bloat"... To have a full-blown operating system, you'll have bloat. Doesn't really matter whether it's Microsoft or Linux, does it?
"All most users really need"... Then why do they need the multiple processes, cron, etc running on a linux handheld would bring?
"Microsoft's chains of oppression"... Don't get me wrong...Microsoft *is* inherently evil. But I have to laugh...they own like 5% of the PDA market. You mean Palm's chains of oppression (which are quite comfortable to me...as they aren't forgetting the minimalistic basics.)
Go, Springboard, Go!
Today is the last day to file for a product refund in the Class Action Lawsuit against HP. The lawsuit, if you remember, concerns Jornada 400 & 500 series palmtops which were advertized as having 16bit color, but do not. If I remember the details correctly, you are entitled to a full refund of PURCHASE price from HP. Check out the details on their site.
Because it's fun. Because of the public scrutiny resulting from the still ongoing trial and appeals, there's not really much that Microsoft can do about it.
But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.
I think putting Linux onto a handheld device is just as pointless as putting Windows. What do you honestly need the power for? Do you ever crunch through heavy databases on your Palm? Do you ever program fiercely on your handheld? Do you ever play Quake on it? How does a command prompt help you check your address book?
I think the notion of having an open source handheld operating system is excellent. But that's exactly all it should be- a handheld operating system. Handhelds will never replace desktops. They aren't ment to.
But the scalability thing is just my point -- ucLinux and Elks aren't Linux per se, they're siblings.
/Brian
Because, of course, Windows CE (now known as PocketPC) sucks, right Taco?
Have you ever used Windows CE? Have you ever played around with it? It's not in the same ballpark as PalmOS in terms of functionality, but it comes awfully darn close.
And with the new handhelds having the Windows 2000 kernel be their cornerstone (sometime in 2002), the machines will get much more stable.
Besides, show me a Compaq iPac with Linux installed that can play MP3's. I rest my case.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
My employer has provided me with a Jornada. If they were to buy new Jornadas, it would need to connect up and work in the same way as the present ones.
Most 'business' users don't care what OS it is running. They just need it to connect up to their Outlook, transfer a few files and maybe play some music.
I have never got around to connecting it up to Linux but I understand I could. It would be nice to connect it to M$ at work and a grown up" OS at home though. This may be easier if they do change.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
I use Outlook at work too. When I bought my Palm IIIx, it came with software to allow it to sync with Outlook. The software works great--I have no complaints so far. So what's you point? My Palm integrates just fine with my MS desktop softare.
--==--
Fanatic (n): a person who won't change his mind and can't change the subject.
Wishful thinking. Both X and PocketLinux are both quite useless for actual use. Sorry! PocketLinux shows promise, but isn't anywhere near usable yet.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Yes I have and currently do program for CE. Yes the onscreen emulator requires a solid, professional OS (i.e. win2k/NT4). Quite frankly, doing dev work on anything less in the Windows world is the first sign that you're a masochist! :-)
In dev work for CE's favor, the IDE is free (well, you pay for shipping). Works the way you expect it to (provided you're use to Visual Studio). Includes VC++ and VB.
Try to learn MFC in a hurry? If you consider 2 weeks a hurry, then yeah (this was back in the Win3.1 days, so yes, it was painful). Was by no means an expert at it at the end of the 2 weeks, but was comfortable enough in it to be productive in my job. Don't want to use MFC, then use c++/c and Win32. Don't want to use that? Use VB. Don't want to use that, either? Get another job :-)
All in all, a wonderful, relatively painless coding experience.
And that's my $0.32 (adjusted for inflation).
...is why HP would do something like this to piss Microsoft, when, a few day's when they announced ending development on OpenMail, that one of the reason's they we're ending development was because they thought created friction with microsoft.
Ohh well probably shows the amount of bs that goes into press releases
But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.
Is that a new law or something?
--
Je t'aime Stéphanie
QT/Embedded should work perfectly on Jornadas. The 32MB/SDRAM of Jornada 720, it should be more than enough to run many KDE apps... maybe some specifically written by HP. That's why I think there is much more then a flashing cursor to expect from a Linux Handheld.
What I think they tried in the article is that HP wanted to give user's a choice besides PocketPC. So user's could choose linux or palmos.
The truth is that samsung has already created the YOPY,a linux-based pda
look at this link for pics http://www.gicom.com/yopy/
for a discussion about it http://slashdot.org/articles/00/04/27/0858200.shtWrong. The next version of CE will support just as many cpu's as the current (and probably more). Perhaps you were thinking about embedded Whistler (or, as it's now known, XP). What IS neat about embedded XP is that XP has been designed from the ground up to be a modular OS, this way the leap from Desktop/Server to embedded version is just a little hop. Very cool stuff coming to the embedded market from MS by year's end :-)
And that's my $0.32 (adjusted for inflation).
I want a PC in the size of a Palm. Hook up a keyboard and some Sony Glasstrons when I want to watch a movie or do some serious coding. Maybe play MP3's on it while I'm flying somewhere, and catch up on my reading while I'm at it. When I land, I'll use the GPS, figure out where I am (cities all begin to look alike at some point), grab a map off the web via the wireless modem, and off I go. Maybe watch the live TV coverage of the earthquake that cut the power that stuck me in this elevator.
Is pronouncing it "Wince"... As in, when ever I have to use it, I wince. (drum roll, high hat) Thank you thank you! I'm hear all week folks, please try the fish, and don't forget to tip those waitresses!
Fawking Trolls!
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
Much as I'd LOVE to see a major player shipping a Linux based PDA, read the freaking article! They said "Linux OR PlamOS", not "Linux". Until I actually see Tux on the bootup, I will pessimistically assume it will be PalmOS. Then they can leverage all the PalmOS apps.
Mind you, if they did ship a Linux version... well, I'd have my Mastercard out so fast Einstein would be spinning in his grave.
www.eFax.com are spammers
But if they did, I'd have to buy a jornada.
Um, why? Its not like I see tons of linux software out there that's made to run on handhelds. I mean, great, it boots up to a prompt or whatever, then what?
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
I work at a company that uses mainly Windows NT and we have our own personal Jornada 720s.
The whole reason we have jornadas is for keeping track of our schedules and getting reminders. Now since we aren't on the jornadas all day it is nice to get the reminders on our personal PCs, and we have software that keeps the MS Outlook on our jornadas in sync with our PCs. If HP moves to Linux they wouldn't have MS Outlook on the jornadas and the benefit of having the MS products in sync would be lost.
Now I know most people here are going to say "Well, use Linux on your workstations" however most companies have already invested into Windows NT, and they will need PDAs that can interface with the established systems.
I work at a company that uses mainly Windows NT and we have our own personal Jornada 720s.
The whole reason we have jornadas is for keeping track of our schedules and getting reminders. Now since we aren't on the jornadas all day it is nice to get the reminders on our personal PCs, and we have software that keeps the MS Outlook on our jornadas in sync with our PCs. If HP moves to Linux they wouldn't have MS Outlook on the jornadas and the benefit of having the MS products in sync would be lost.
Now I know most people here are going to say "Well, use Linux on your workstations" however most companies have already invested into Windows NT, and they will need PDAs that can interface with the established systems.
Astute readers will notice that the link is to the UK branch of ZDnet. They are still in the process of translating to American, ie. from:
Hewlett-Packard mulls Linux or Palm OS and announces a wireless Jornada
Hewlett-Packard's Jornada palmtops may drop Microsoft's Windows-based Pocket PC platform in favour of Linux or Palm OS, according to Iain Morris, the new head of HP's recently formed Embedded and Personal Systems group. The firm also announced a Jornada with wireless capability for later this year.
to
Hewlett-Packard might do Linux or Palm OS and announces a radio Jornada
Hewlett-Packard's Jornada palm thingies may drop Microsoft's Windows-based Pocket PC warez in favor of Linux or Palm OS, according to Iain Morris, the new head of HP's recently formed Tiny Things group. The firm also announced a Jornada with AM/FM capability for later this year.
Why not linux? Part of the point of linux is that it is open source. I'm sure with a few good programmers and a bit of time the right portions of linux could be filtered out to run it. Since linux already has the power and stability, why not just remove what is not needed? Yes linux is large but it has become that way to support various systems and needs. A hand held system would not need to have support for hundreds of net cards, or different motherboard chip sets. When you think about it, Linux can become very small when needed too. If you equipment is fixed then your kernal can be built specificly to that hardware.
It really won't bother me if hp uses linux or not. But I think that because linux is already customizable down to the kernal level it could work well. I'm not that familiar with Minix, and thought it was what linux was modeled after. If so and it hasn't been kept up to date then it might be more work to upgrade it than to remove the unneeded parts of linux.
Just my thoughts.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Having done extensive C++/MFC development for CE, I have to say it is a horrible platform. The development tools are buggy and hard to use; the compiler generates bad code in far too many cases, making debugging a nightmare (imagine programming in a world where "it must be a compiler bug" is a likelihood rather than a lame programmer excuse); performance is shockingly bad; the RTL has amazing gaps in it; and the OS is prone to random behavior that suggests exceptionally low quality standards. (I say this as a big Visual C++ fan, not a Microsoft basher.)
Each processor's compiler has its own charming set of quirks, adding greatly to the joy of trying to build a working product.
Reading between the lines of Microsoft's dwindling support and backing of CE, it seems like even Microsoft has pretty much given up on the platform and is just keeping the group around to hassle Palm, or maybe just out of corporate inertia. The signs are pretty clear if you do CE development that the platform is not a priority for them at all. HP must have figured this out.
--Charlie
Come /on./ No way Linux is an appropriate OS for a PDA. This thing isn't a laptop, it's an organizer. The only OS that makes any sense on the thing is Symbian's EPOC. I'd buy it tomorrow if they offered that. Smaller, faster, more stable, better apps... No contest.
Liam P. ~ "Intelligence is a lethal mutation." (me)
But more likely than that (IMHO), they'll get caught up in the Microcrap machine and stick with CE.
M$ has done it before. I'm sure HP's desktop division will get a little letter in the mail from M$ sayng that there is some "problems" with their licensing fees for Windows X?X? and thir license agreement will be suspended unlit it is sorted out.
That is basically what happened to IBM's Desktop division when their Software division was pushing OS/2 and SmartSuite..
.sig? Get your own damn
Scaling up is irrelevant. The issues pointed out elsewhere in this thread seem to be more important -- stability for example. That might invalidate the Minix idea, but scaling wouldn't.
/Brian
not every application has a close button. Since wince actually splits memory into "program memory" and "storage memory" this eats up alot of ram, unless you enjoy closing the program manually with control panel or using the highly efficient and intuitive "ctrl-q" (which of course means bringing up the keyboard).
there's also no easy way to switch between open applications without using the "memory" app in control panel. This gets really annoying after awhile.
the file explorer always defaults to My Documents. This doesn't sound too bad....until you've drilled down in the hierarchy and click on an image. Hey cool, it opens in IE. Lets look at the other images in that directory... use the icons at the top of the start menu to switch back to the file explorer....and you're back at My Documents. Not fun to have to switch directories again.
I could go on. I've never used the iPaq extensively, but the Casio is slooooow compared to the feel of the Palm OS.
Regarding the development stuff...yeah the free IDE's are nice, but actually developing for wince involves alot of headaches and annoying workarounds. It's hardly a "snap."
troll!
-sig? who said anything about a sig?!
Now we can run a Beowulf claster of those!
A handhand file system has to be transparent to the user, unlike regular hierarchical filesystems that load and save.
Take the address book as an example. When I open the address book app on my Palm or Newton, I don't have to load a file, or save it when I'm done. The file system does this auto-magically when you close the app, switch to another app, power down the system or the system powers itself down. The file system API provides the same functionality to any other app on the platform.
If Linux on a hand-held can do this, fine, otherwise it's going to be a pain in the butt to use.
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www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
So most, if not all, of the current Linux apps dynamically conform to the current screen size? Particularaly the command line/curses apps? Just curious... Very easy to develop new apps for? So there is a compiler/debugger that will allow you to remotely debug apps running on a handheld? Or an on-screen emulator for the target handheld? Not really sure what the state of dev tools is for remote dev/debugging.
And that's my $0.32 (adjusted for inflation).
"It would be able to run many existing Linux apps, it would be very easy to develop new apps for, and it would be very easy to integrate into my existing networks as a client or an admin tool" sound like quite a lot of "what they can do" to me.
---
"They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
There's a dozen decent OS's I can think of that are already appropriate or could be with the same effort as Minix would require. The point is that they're not what folks want (well, outside of OS-stalwarts.)
Linux now has brand-recognition. Management has heard of it, the geeks are enthused, there's applications everywhere for it. It's a known quantity. Heck even Accounting now knows what catagory to list it in.
MS sold folks on the idea of one OS scalable throughout the company - Data Center / File Server / Database Server / Mail Server / Terminal Server / Firewall / Desktop / Laptop / Palmtop / Home / Embedded.
Linux is doing the same thing - one OS (and one skillset, one codebase) scalable up and down. HP knows it can sell this the same way MS pushed WinWhatever and they're going for it.
Furthermore it's trivial to strip down a Linux kernel. Sure it might not be as lean as some others but we're reaching the point where leanness isn't the main criterion. CPU cycles and RAM aren't as limited as they were even 6 months or a year ago, the next generation will be faster / more memory, etc. There's more value in having the aforementioned base of applications and brand-recognition then there is in having some special-purpose OS.
Finally HP isn't necc. selling this for today's market. They're looking a year or two down the line. Linux will clearly still be going strong with lots of development - Minix et al will almost surely not be recieving the same kind of support. At that point running something other then Linux or an entrenched product (Symbios, PalmOS, WinCE) on tomorrow's super-palmtop would have been a short-term gain for a long-term handicap.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
This would be a mistake, business wise. Your target audience is savvy businessmen who need to manage contacts and send e-mail. They don't want to debug while waiting in line at the Grocery store or run an ultra-stable web server.
A handheld PC is an environment where complete stability isn't at the top of the list. Usability and functionality is. And, this is, unfortunatly, where Linux is most lacking.
Leaving a traditional OS would also represent venturing out on your own in terms of the giant marketing machine these companies create. Like I said before, non-technical types aren't interested in the finer points of Linux. I'm sure most don't even know the difference between Palm and WinCE/PocketPC. They like the big full page ads, and the familiarity with the desktop environment or the good functionality.
We don't need to put Linux on everything...don't make the same mistake Microsoft did/is.
Everyone who says that Linux is not suited to run on a hand-held or palm-top platform are forgetting something very crucial to this whole situation (And I suspect that is because most of us came from a desktop background).
Linux is not a distribution. Linux is not a filesystem, or a set of drivers. Linux is not a desktop OS, not even a server OS for that matter, though with a few additions it makes an exelent one.
Linux is a kernel, plain and simple. Linux is the heart of the Red Hat distribution I run on my workstation, server, gateway, and webserver and the Debian distribution that Slashdot runs on top of.
The Linux kernel is extremely well designed, clean and flexible. Because source is available and doesn't suffer from years of being tightly coupled to a single (Or maybe two or three) hardware platforms, it can be ported up or down relatively easily. Linux hardware drivers are relatively easily to write, and it is not designed with any particular interface in mind.
Everyone who complains about "Why would I need a command-line on my palm-top" has missed the point. Everyone who says "running X on a hand-held... ew!" has also missed the boat.
Linux is the kernel. It is easily extensible, so any drivers that need to be written can be. Any GUI can also be wrapped around it, so the UI on the hand-held can be designed however it is needed. Don't want X? Don't put it on. Don't want the CLI, don't install it. It's up to you.
Improvise, adapt, and overcome.
Maybe because minix is utter shite?
I just had to dig around in the kernel, fs,
and mm sources, in order to implemnet a debugger for a uni project. It is not nice. A particularly scummy message passing scheme, sicko macros everywhere, global variables for everything! *shudder*
I judge this from also having messed about with
Linux, eros, and FreeBSD kernel source. All those were nicer. A lot nicer. And eros is in C++, so that is an acheivement.
mm& fs are misnamed - they should be called "Random system call task 1" and
"Random System call task 2".
Honestly. Minix is not suitable for *any* use other than torturing university students.
A benefit of linux is that you do not have to threaten people with failure of a course/loss of future monetary income/etc to get them to mess with it.
Actually, it's nice to have the option to add those features; that's why I'm sure Handspring is doing rather well right now. And presenting a Unix userland to a PDA user is precisely wrong.
/Brian
I can only assume this irrational urge to run Linux on every computer is the same urge that causes them to place 5 litre engines in their cars.
Of course, I'll have to wait for that distro to even hook the damn thing up to my PC and have it sync, due to OHCI/UHCI Linux driver stupidity in 2.2.16, so what the heck!
You know, I love vacuum tubes for audio. They're great. But I don't think they're very good for computers. Why do so many people here think of Linux as a panacea of computing? I'm still getting up and running on it, but so far, for non-kernel hackers, it's a pain in the ass. I couldn't even begin to imagine trying to run it on a palm-type device.
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
I think that the benefit of using a OpSys other then WinCE is size and speed. The few WinCE devices that I have played with required massive amounts of memory and power to handle the overhead of the operating system. Either Palm OS, a stripped down Linux, or even Minix could be the ticket. I see value in switching to either of them as long as they are truly devoted to being a handheld OpSys.
> To have the lawyers go over the code you write to make sure it does not infringe on the GPL takes money.
Why? If it's kernel, it's GPL. If it's app, it's whatever you want (note: Oracle runs on Linux. Oracle is not Open Source).
If the concern is GPL'ing of kernel code to make it run well on Jornada's proprietary HW, read esr's paper on driver development in _The Cathedral and The Bazaar_ (hint - you WANT them to copy you, because if they're copying you, they're not innnovating).
Took all of 2 seconds, no lawyer needed.
> NetBSD already boots, and doesn't have a long, lengthy license requiring a staff dedicated to preventing the release of company Intellectual Property as expressed in source code.
Neither does Linux.
linux works a lot better than a windows derivitive on embedded systems.
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Slashdot eds like their sensationalistic topics don't they?
/didn't/ go to the site, that HP is considering changing to linux /or/ palmos.
:P I'd love to see higher res (320x240) palmos devices.. but I'm sure that won't happen till palm changes to the strongarm platform here in a year or so.. Then they'll prolly have higher res screens (and a built in emu to run legacy palmos apps).
I'd just like to note, for those of you that
I wouldn't mind either way
On the other hand, a Linux palmtop would be cool.. Someone already has an Ipaq version of linux out.. and the Helio has their own version of linux (pocketlinux, something that the Helio's makers are actually investing in.. for the possiblity of a replacement for the current os those things run)..
As for vapourware, I've been wanting a G.Mate Yopy for over a year now.. but it's not out for 'consumers' yet.. unless you'd like to drop $790 on the developer version (which is almost double what I would expect to pay for the public version)
-since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
It would be nice to replace/supplement my HP-48, though. I'd like to interface (sample & control) test equipment, too.
Meanwhile, I am working in a lab at Brown producing state of the art hand writing recognition software, and every day we get yelled at by a lab member to make it do mathematical equations...mmm...I think maybe this would kinda make sense if you have a keyboard, cause then you could sit around in class and program..but otherwise...I don't thinks so
Ok. Every time anyone comes out and says anything about why would people want to have linux on the handheld, people come out of the woodwork screaming "no one cares al long as it has a calendar" etc . . .
The fact is, everyone cares about apearances. Handspring has done so well in part because of their funky colors (look at Palm scrambling to catch up). People throw new skins on I.E. (Internet Exploiter) and you can't even pretend you don't spend a least an hour a week tweaking the frames/ background/ pixmaps/ window manager on your choice of X11 desktop.
This is all about customization. Using an OSS solution for a handheld means that the vendor has better options for branding and customization, a platform where development follows already known standards, and a comunity constantly developing widgets that aren't going to cost their end users a dime.
And yes, inspite of the new Prism in my bag right now - I'll pick up a Jornada running linux first chance I get. Just don't tell my girlfriend.
\Drew National Data Director, John Edwards for President
Two parts here:
1) Why linux is not (necessarily) overkill for embedded apps.
2) Why minix would probably be less than fun.
Ok, point (1). I've heard a lot of this "linux is overkill for embedded systems" talk, but I feel like its coming from people who haven't ever done anything but the enormous full install of their favorite distro on their honkin' big home box. When you strip it down to essentials, you can get a perfectly functional system running in very few Mb. Ok, linux is a bit beefy (kernel size wise) comparied to some of the RTOSs that get used out there, but we are talking differences here that are totally insignificant given todays embedded hardware. Remember what hardware was like when linux development began? What about UNIX? Linux can run on freakin' tiny platforms. Take it from me.
I get the sense from your post that most of your size worries come from using a full "windowing system" like X. Ok, X on a palmtop is probably a bad idea. But thats not the only solution out there. There are windowing systems (microwindows?) built for just this kind of thing.
2) Here's why you really want to use linux instead of minix: Other people have done almost all of the work for you. Pick a processor or a dev. board, and someone has probably ported linux to it. What happens if you want a PCMCIA slot on your Minix handheld? Uh, got to write the drivers yourself. Linux? No problem. And there are scads of other examples like this.
Linux on embedded systems is not necessarily the most elegant thing on earth, and isn't great is you have hard realtime needs, but really, just for the number of people out there working on the same stuff (and sharing it!) you just can't beat linux...
spreer
As Linux zealots, yes we are all happy when any vendor decides to package linux along with their devices.
:)
But I disagree with your notion that all that users really need in a PDA is a simple address book. calendar , scheduler and browsing capabilities. See, when YOU decide what your user should have, thats when you are wrong. I dont believe Microsoft did a stupid thing by putting in an e-book reader, video and MP3 playback. When they have better rendering capabilities, when Nvidia starts putting out chips for handhelds as they would in the future (there are millions of users out there with a PDA, and Nvidia wont just ignore that market), we would definitely need ebook readers and Video playback. And memory is not an issue anymore, it were in the past.
Linux's enemy was never MS. it was always linux itself. Unless or otherwise you have tons of productivity apps that could run on a PDA (or atleast a handful which are really good), HP is not gonna capture a good chunk of the market share. WinCE may not be as advanced or secure as Linux on a handheld, but it gets most of the work done. And it looks good.
As for the Microsoft chains of oppression, well lets not talk about it now. They have binding contracts with HP, which is evident on HP's x86 server ads ("We recommend Windows 2000 Professional for business").
But if you just wanted to troll today, then I guess none of what I said would go to your head anyway.
Rapid Nirvana
Wow, that was a huge troll:
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Is it still maintained? If it hasn't been upgraded in 5 years that could be allot of work.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
I mean really, does it have to be one or the other? Or even better yet, how about one that could dual boot WinCE and Linux. Now if they did that, I'd have to buy it.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
They should eat their own dogfood, and use HP-UX! I'm sure they'll attract lots of developers because H-PUX's cutting edge development tools, like debuggers that can't debug!
And users will love patching their OS every week.
atom - still bitter from being my project's HPUX guy a few years ago...
batch queues, versioning in RMS, DECnet onboard - would be cool eh?
(wakes up from dream.) oh wait, this is 2001, isn't it? VMS is dead. ok, then linux; its the next best thing.
--
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Heck, Taco and I BOTH would buy one.. that must be approaching the sales that they get with CE :)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - The Celtic - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Still commercial, though.
/Brian
Actually Linux is *NOT* cheaper to implement.
To have the lawyers go over the code you write to make sure it does not infringe on the GPL takes money.
Software engineers who become lawyers/laywers who become software engineers are not cheap.
That doesn't mean they can't use Open Source however. NetBSD already boots, and doesn't have a long, lengthy license requiring a staff dedicated to preventing the release of company Intellectual Property as expressed in source code.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
And I went over there a while back to investigate some industrial handheld solutions they were working on. They showed me a couple of handheld devices running Linux, with 802.11 and Bluetooth, but also running some version of XWindows. Seriously. The one I was most impressed with was running Gnome.
:)
So it's entirely possible.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Big Blue is IBM, not Micro$oft. First they ignore you.. then they laugh at you.. then they fight you.. then you win.
My Blog
I don't need a handheld -- what I *do* need is an ultralight notebook device, with excellent battery life (>10 hrs), and a reasonable keyboard. The HP Jornada 820, with its 190 MHz StrongARM CPU is almost exactly what I need except:
1) It only runs WinCE. I want GNU/Linux, dammit! (preferably Debian, but all HP has to do is open up the hardware, and I'm sure Debian ARM will be quickly adapted to support it).
2) A built-in IBM Microdrive would be a nice touch (although this can be installed as a card, an internal would allow me to use the slot for other purposes).
3) It probably has a winmodem, so Free Software drivers for the winmodem would be desireable if it's to be used effectively with a GNU OS.
Otherwise, the Jornada 820 has everything I need. The StrongARM CPU in this thing gives excellent performance (compared to x86), with much lower power consumption (and the new xScale versions of this chip are awesome). The keyboard seems pretty good for such a small device, and battery life is something like 12 hours (!) on these things. Perfect.
Why can't HP make me one?
I don't really buy the idea that HP will ditch wince. Not for the reasons that many people hare are mentioning. To be honest companies and most individuals don't care all that much what OS their handheld runs, and just use whatever software comes with it. That being said, it doesn't look like there are many proffitability plusses for changing to linux from ce for a company like HP. At most I'd expect them to offer a linux distro, but I kindof doubt they will release handhelds you can pick up at BestBuy preinstalled with linux. It sounds like there just trying to court the linux audience, and guage their reaction, without ever planning to really release a linux only pda. Even so, at least it means there should be a well supported distro for their handhelds in a year or two.
You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely.
Windows CE might be great for the end user with its relatively familiar interface, but did you ever program for this type of environment? The software devlopment kit for Windows CE pretty much gives small developers the choice to either
1)buy a bunch or handheld/pocket PC type devices
2)install windows 2000/NT4
Windows 2000/NT4 is needed to support the emulator for the PDA. No other operating system will work. The only other option is to buy the devices and download the program to them. As a university student familiar with a Unix style environment, I do not appreciate having to install an overbloated OS just to do some minor development work on an application.
I would like to see more PDA operating system choices, paticularly something that could be emulated on a system other than windows 2000/NT. I would especially like to see something Linux or Unix based since my university has lots of machines available for developing on those platforms. Having more choice would allow me to work in the environment I am most comfortable. Besides, did you ever try and learn MFC in a hurry? There should be a better way.
Overall I think that switching to linux would lower the cost. Since winCE I'm sure requires a licensing fee, and linux does not. Once they have what they want that lowers cost, and if that were shifted to lower buying price then maybe I'd get one. But I guess we will just have to wait and see.
If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
sorry, i read that wrong. I think linux is great for desktops but i don't know how well it applies to palmtops. my only experiance is with an hp 660lx palmtop running ce, and i have enough trouble with it. Anything that can make it run better, i'll apreciate.
Drummer beat & piper blow,Harper strike & soldier go,Free the flame & sear the grasses,Till the dawning Red
There's multiple pieces to a Linux distribution, but Linux is nothing more than a Kernel to run other applications on. As a Kernel, it's not much different in size to something like PalmOS or EPOC. If you don't realize that there'd be "PDA" type apps instead of server or desktop apps running on the PDA, you're more clueless than most.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
People don't really care what runs on their handhelds. As long as it lets them use a calendar, play games, and sync with their desktop. If HP picks Linux, it will gain the advantage of not having to pay for their OS. Plus they get the goodwill (hence the money) of many geeks without compromising the mainstream market.
To get something done, a committee should consist of no more than three persons, two of them absent.
There is a substitute for cubic inches, Its called intelligence.
Nobody in their right mind buys their car in the UK, we all buy them from Holland or Germany and import them to the UK.
Still, I think the big problem with Linux-based handhelds and PDAs is usability. QT/embedded is though surely going the right way. But it will still be a while before I would buy a linux-based PDA. (until then, the rule for me is: no free software, thus no pda)
CMU Mach, now being carried on (with much addition?) as GNU/Hurd (overlying gnumach) is also a microkernel, why not use that (on the sole basis that is an open source microkernel)?
In the examples you gave, the applications do all of that work for the user. It's not the "filesystem" that does it. Ever looked at the memory management setup on any PDA? They all have the distinction of files that are copied on or off the machine. The apps don't make that distinction unless they have to.
Just because Linux is being used doesn't just magically prevent that- all the Linux PDA's I've seen so far have a mix of apps, some of them the traditional ones, some of them not. The ones that are the traditional way of things on a PDA don't have the distinction of "files". The ones that are a little more sophisticated tend to work as their paradigm allows for files or not. Some do, some don't. I'm sure that the concept of MP3's does bring in some semblence of files, etc.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I presently own a PalmIIIe. For the most part it's great. Sometimes it crashes, sometimes I wish it could do more, but if I had a pile of money and the chance to do it over again I'd probably just get a IIIc.
My biggest beef about the Palm is that I can only write 4k notes. Now I know you can get around this with a shareware program (SuperPad), but I'm not sure if that'll sync with my Linux machine.
The Palm is great. No thanks to 3Com it has great Linux connectivity, and the uber-geeky palm keyboard is the handiest add-on ever. I've used my little Palm to write several essays and reviews. I love it.
If the OS doesn't have silly limitiations (like the Palm) if it's easy to use, inexpensive and syncs well with my Linux box, then I'll think about upgrading/switching.
Does anyone out there know the status of PDA's and Linux? The Palm works well, CE'd be a bust (I'm guessing" but what about all of these Linux-based PDAs? What about embedded QT? Do they provide syncing with Linux desktop machines? The Yopi? Etc.
That, and no stupid file limits (4k for the apps, 32k hard.. sheesh.. what were they thinking?) is what I want.
Oh, and since they don't have to pay MS, it had better be cheaper than the current crop..
Look, there's no point in talking to you if you're bound and determined to go with Minix. Go ahead by the HP thingie, start cross-compiling and port Minix to it. Be my guest.
If you actually want to know why not a dozen folks have told you why. REAL (tm) Linux is already doable and ucLinux and Elks are at least, as you said, cousins.
Minix is like the birth-parent who left the baby on the street-corner, never wanted to see it then when it grew up and made something of themselves came around knocking, sniffin' for money. I'd rather port to a cousin then some kinda freaky relative like that.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
the first thing I have heard people ask about non Palm brand handhelds is "Will is run the same programs?"
Having different CPU, Jornada, even if it will run PalmOS, won't run Palm 68K binaries without an emulator. However 68K+Palm hardware emulator that the user can run PalmOS under, already runs on a shitload of OSes.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
What do you get when you put WindowsCE, WindowsME, and Windows NT together?
Windows CEMENT
Short reason: Minix is open-source as well (BSD, though, not GPL) and a lot smaller than Linux. Much less to cut out.
/Brian
How about QNX?
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Interesting stuff.
For myself, I'm quite happy with my Palm for now because although it can't quite support Perl, I can get it to talk to my Linux box.
--
Dunx
Dunx
Converting caffeine into code since 1982
I haven't jumped into the pool of PDA owners yet, but having a choice between a PalmOS device and a Linux device supported by a company as solid and reputable as HP (love their old RPN calculators) would be very reassuring when I felt like taking the plunge. Real competition is always good.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
.
/etc/opt/subdirectory!)
I mean seriously, HP-UX is just a train-wreck of a proprietary unix variant.
-- Doesn't come with a useable C compiler
(ANSI C costs $$$$$$$ extra, K&R compiler is purposely crippled, GCC port is very ugly)
-- Still running CURSES (the AUTHORS of curses recommend that everyone use ncurses!)
-- Ships with outdated versions of GZIP and PERL
-- Doesn't follow its own directory hierarchy guidelines (ems logs to
-- Uses the worst package management system ever written (the "depot" system)
-- Embodies the worst features of both BSD and System V without the best of either
-- Poor support of non-HP peripherals (try running an LSI disk array on a PA-RISC machine - your HP service reps will blame everthing on it)
I could go on, but I'm nauseated. Anyone else?
--Charlie
...and I'd have to admit that I would be torn.
I enjoy my Palm IIIc, but I would really enjoy having a hand-held that ran linux out of the box - and didn't require a ton of tweaking to make it work.
In the mean time, I will still use the Palm...
BlackNova Traders
Hmmm... Perhaps HP is WinCEing over the price of Wince, and this is their way of talking down the price.
--Radio, the complex made simple. Computers, the simple made complex.
One option for HP is to switch away from Microsoft's Pocket PC operating system, and onto a different platform such as Linux, or the market-leading Palm OS. "Jornada as a product has an opportunity to become more successful," said Morris.
So, from the story it looks more likely that they'll switch to PalmOS, since Palm holds a huge percentage of the market share. But more likely than that (IMHO), they'll get caught up in the Microcrap machine and stick with CE.
All most users really need in a PDA is a simple address book, calendar, and a schedular, with possible internet browsing capabilities. Microsoft, apparently doesn't understand this as they try to include e-book readers, IR capability, video and MP3 playback, and other memory hogging crap that no one really needs in a portable device.
It's about time the a major vendor takes the initiative and casts off Microsoft's chains of oppression to install Linux on a PDA. I just hope that Microsoft will not employ their usual despicable monopolistic practices and punish HP for their decision to stray from Big Blue.
Slashdot: Open Source, Closed Minds.
What seems to be lost in all of this is that Minix seems to be the way to go for such a small system. Linux takes work, maybe even a code fork. What I simply fail to get in all this: YES, it's good that Linux is being ported to hell and back, and YES, it's nice to have an option other than PalmOS the great and WinCE the self-explanatory, why does it have to be a full-up Unix? Here's the second biggest problem with WinCE: its interface is still bound to the desktop metaphor. I don't see how exactly you can do much better than this with Linux -- you need a GUI but a "windowing system" per se is overkill. Palm uses a few windows, but for the most part seems to rely on pageswapping to display interfaces. And Linux itself is just too damn big. What's really needed here is an OS that's small to begin with. Minix doesn't need to be built from the ground up; just add some decent power management to the kernel, replace the console with the above-mentioned hypothetical minimalist GUI, and go from there. Face it, folks: the only reason we want to see Linux on a palmtop is name brand recognition. It's about time someone came up with a GPLed OS designed specifically for PDAs. (suggested moderation: -1 Flamebait) /Brian
Less than 3 weeks ago HP cancelled the Xpander that ran WinCE. Linux is popular in the HP handheld user community, so if they put a good interface on it, it could be a big hit. PalmOS if combined with a thorough emulation of classic RPN calculators, programmable preferred, could be pretty neat. None of the RPN calculator software packages out there have got it right yet, as far as I can tell. They either screw up stack lift enable/disable, have missing functions or misguided layouts, or aren't programmable. I'd like to set aside my HP-41/42/48 or whatever and use one machine. Let's hope HP gets it right this time. If it runs Linux I've got my credit card ready.
That reminds me of the old joke:
Windows CE +
Windows ME +
Windows NT =
Windows CeMeNT, which will be their latest in integration of the 3.
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
Hey, that's cool -- can I have your iPaq if you do? Some of us can't afford the buy the latest geek toys...
--Cycon
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
Not to blame Linux (because I'm a huge fan and user), but from the sounds of this article HP is probably likely to use PalmOS.
From HP's perspective, they'll have to choose between making something essentially from scratch from Linux themselves (since there's a lack of GUI and apps that scale down to the handheld level currently), or choose PalmOS which they won't have to support and has a huge app base right now.
It's going to be a tough decision for them. They'll probably be more inclined to outsource the support to Palm, but I do hope they choose Linux and support it.
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
There is a linux based Palm SDK and emulator available. Here's an intro on Linux Gazette. You can download tools and documentation from the Palm developer page. You can do all your programming on linux with the familiar gnu tools, do some testing with the emulator, and then download them to the Palm for more in depth testing.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Why? Why wouldn't you judge your products based on what they can do, not based on something as stupid as this?
Hm...on second thought. There might already been something that you can hack it to be like your dream machine.
I heard this idea from a friend. The RIM Blackberry pager. It has a full keyboard, a nice screen and uses a 386. Modem is built in.
Anyone tried installing Linux on it?