Slashdot Mirror
EU To Investigate DVD pricing
traffosky writes: "At
this address, the BBC says that the EU's competition commissioner,
Mario Monti, is about to lauch an investigation into DVD pricing policies on the European side of the Atlantic. He is unhappy with the fact that EU consumers pay about 25% more than their US counterparts. He will also be asking Hollywood about the regional coding system. I'm not sure if the BBC 'get it' yet, though: they filed this story under "Entertainment: Film"." Perhaps this zoning thing will draw even more deserved scrutiny -- as it already has from a UK supermarket chain and from the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) down under.
Some things just ain't right!
so why do cds cost more than tapes which which cost much more to produce?
Try paying $33-$40 per CD in Japan, $50 and up for DVDs.
It's a great model: have the lowest prices in the country where you have the most sales (the USA), then jack the prices up everywhere else.
Since none of the Americans will complain (unless he/she is an import DVD/CD fanatic), the companies keep their price fixing, drowning out the complaints of the smaller countries.
this sig is lame.
"from the dept."
what?
The best way to get the price of DVDs down is to stop buying them!!!
/Nicholai
This is a very naive point of view in my opinion.
If the market was competetive the price would equal
marginal cost
But when companies are big enough to influence market prices
they will set the price too high, knowing that some consumers
won't buy the product.
Splitting the market is a way to discriminate consumers
and this has negative overall effects.
And am I the only person in the world that is worried about the fact that all Switzerland's neighbouring countries would describe them as "shy, quiet.. keep themselves to themselves.. seem like really nice, polite fellows, wouldn't hurt a fly". It's only a matter of time.
Not only that, but now they want to start arming their troops in foreign countries.
I'll be watching those Swiss. Anyone who can make a knife that useful is a force to be reckoned with!
So the record comapnies lose several dollars on each tape sold? And have for years?
Ok, I work for an independent record label, and I think you'd be surprised how much money it costs to make a CD. sure it only costs about a penny in raw materials, but a CPU probably only costs about $1 in raw materials and we'll glady pay $400 for one. Ok so let's break it down to the cost of the label:
$1 - to make the physical and Cd and jewel case.
$1 - artwork (booklet and tray card)
let's add 50 cents just to make it $2.50 to cover freight and all the other misc costs (mechanical royalties, shrink wrap, stickers, catalog insert, etc.).
ok, now we have a physical disc.
most stores mark up product about 50 percent right, so if a CD sells for $15 in the store, let's say they bought it for $7.50. but usually the stores buy from distributors, not the label, and let's say the distributor marks up 15-20%, so let's say the label sells it to the distributor for $6. minus the $2.50, we have $3.50.
at our label, we split the profits 50-50 with the artist, so that leaves us with $1.75 "profit" on a CD sold at $15 in stores.
that $1.75 has to make up the cost of making promo CD's, sending CD's to magazines and radio stations, placing ads, making phone class, paying employees, paying rent, etc. How can we possibly lower the price? unless you have a HUGE hit, or you keep losts really low, you can't even make money.
and unless the band sells the label the publishing rights, the labels sees nothing of radio airplay.
sorry if that was jumbled, but i'm tired, and this kinda thing really annoys me. do you honestly believe that record labels make like $14 off a CD sale. Well, Warner Bros. might because they own the manufacturer and the distributor and don't pay their bands crap.
This does not require region coding. Paramount and Fox could just as easily have the same contract without region coding. The only difference is that people would be able to transport Paramount's version into Fox's turf, and vice versa; thus creating competition.
Region coding exists to circumvent free-trade treaties, and thus to enforce selective pricing in various markets.
You're missing the point here. This isn't about supply and demand - far from it. It's about large corporate conglomerates using technology as a means to forcibly control supply and demand. The "piracy" flag is always bandied about by these corporations in the name of some other pathetic way to fuck over the consumer. You shouldn't have to take the worst because that's what Hollywood decided your country is "worthy" of getting. You DESERVE the best choice your entertainment dollar should command on the truly free market, not the crumbs of bullshit they would have you pay for.
Power to the people.
The movie companies abuse the region code in more than one way - several films that are long out of cinema are still being region coded without explaination. This is abuse, pure and simple.
That part isn't the problem -- if you want cheap gas you can drive a little farther to get it, and the market dictates that those prices will be set at exactly the point where profit is (locally) optimized. As long as the consumer has the ability to make that drive over to the next town (within reason), the marketplace works more or less as it should.
The problem with the region coding limitations is that they place an artificial restraint on market forces -- making it nominally impractical, for example, for someone to import a crate of DVDs from, say, India, and resell them in the U.S., even though the numbers might otherwise work out profitably (i.e. net profits more than cover the costs of importing and order processing). I have seen various posts suggesting a lawsuit against the movie industry for exactly this restraint of trade, but to my knowledge no one has taken any specific action yet.
As to your well-taken point about the evils of a fully encrypted end-to-end path, with users forced to buy "trusted client" machines, well, that is a different (albeit equally serious) problem altogether.
I always viewed region coding as essential to releasing DVDs, simply due to the various legally binding distribution contracts. (Note: I am not saying this is a good way to do it, but i feel this is the reason for their existence)
For example, the movie Titanic was distributed by Paramount in the US only, and Fox got the rights to sell it elsewhere. To sell the same exact disc everywhere, both Paramount and Fox would have to agree on the disc features, extra footage copyrights, packaging, etc. Whereas if Paramount had one version, they wouldn't need Fox's approval. Compromise across corporate boundaries is often VERY difficult to broker.
This brokering would lead to serious delays in releasing of the disc globally. And actually might cost more to develop in the long run.
Tom
The zoning scam has nothing going for it. These aren't complaints that places outside the States pay less, but that they pay more.
But that leaves out the worst things about zoning. Try moving to Region 4. Then try buying movies. Say, oh, The Piano, The Dark Crystal, and The Princess Bride.
You can't. In fact, you can't buy them outside North America. Like those movies? Want to pay for them? Too bad, fuck you. You can't have 'em. I'm in New Zealand, and I can't buy The Piano, even though it was filmed in New Zealand, written by a New Zealander, directed by a New Zealander, and starred New Zealanders in leading roles.
There are literally *thousands* of movies that *cannot* be purchased outside of the US on DVD. There are hundreds more that are grossly cut back - sans commentaries, documentaries, interviews, you name it, even though they cost *more* than the same DVD bought in and shipped from the US.
You know... he could swear up and down that he has no problem with that, and insist that they keep charging him $95, and it still won't make it inherently right. It would only illustrate who he sides with.
You will _not_ necessarily get a economic-libertarian-randroid type to acknowledge they're being unreasonable by throwing extreme cases at 'em. They will simply annoy you by fanatically insisting that they don't have any rights to fairness either, and that if they WANTED to, they could become the MPAA too (presumably by working through weekends and holidays! o_O ).
The only real argument you have is the argument that going with the most utterly pure form of free-market laissez-faire is NOT beneficial to society- that it goes out of balance. There's tons of evidence for this (sometimes softened by the vestiges of regulation and control, like with the California power grid), but you're not dealing with someone who places a value on society, typically you're dealing with someone whose only concern is 'can I be one of the winners?'.
If that's what you're up against, you can't win the argument, and you just have to over-rule them and shut them up. Talking of fairness only makes sense in a context where there is a society to be protected, and not everybody wishes society to exist. Some people want no rules and the death of the weak... which is a recipe for species extinction as the species charges into a local maximum, kills off all its diversity, and then croaks when conditions change and the finely optimised uber-people can no longer adapt because they're too inbred to what worked _last_ century.
Yes, this is an unusual way to look at it- your point?
And, _through_ looking at it that way, the reason they can't charge whatever the fuck they want is because it's bad for society for the biggest ass-kickers to be TOO efficient. We already have a somewhat limited set of choices for entertainment in the sense of 'movies to watch'. You're not gonna see big variety at your local movie house. The discriminatory pricing is only _part_ of a _pattern_ that also involves squeezing out other choices and dominating the public awareness completely. The more money they have to do that, the better they'll do it. Give them less money, they will be less able to do it- and that becomes a social good, allowing more options to arise over the long term, and take over from the MPAA if they really start to produce sucky products.
THAT is why they can't charge whatever they want. Not because they couldn't get away with it- because they could, and are, and in so doing they finance ever more expansion, past what is socially useful.
Of course, the EU just wants to get its DVDs cheaper ;) but this is why they should be _allowed_ to when the MPAA can successfully pull off cartel/monopoly pricing.
Presumably people are paying it, hence they think the CD is worth at least that much money.
Isn't the RIAA upset now because a whole bunch of people don't seem to want to pay it anymore?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Which would imply either that prices could be lowered significantly for CDs and the Labels would still turn a profit, or that they're selling tapes at a loss, which makes no sense.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Note that in many cases these CD's are pressed and packaged locally. Imports are flagged as such and typically sold for upwards of 20.
The artists typically see only about 10% of the gross price -- the rest is divvied up along the supply chain, with the lion's share going to the record companies.
If you haven't already read it, read Courtney Love does the math on Salon, where she explains precisely where the money goes ...
It's like the lottery, a tax on stupid people. If you're too dumb to buy a multi-region player, then you're gonna take it the ass on a regular basis anyway. Multi-region players are perfectly legal, and easy to aquire in UK. Check out www.richersounds.co.uk.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
I never argued that it made sense...
:)
Another argument they use is that they want to tailor the content of each disc to a particular market. That kind of makes sense (even for back-catalogue discs), but doesn't explain why I shouldn't use an American disc if I choose. And it doesn't explain why the prices vary so much from country to country.
The truth is that there's (probably) no single argument that shows that region coding is for the benefit of consumers. They *are*, as you say, abusing their customers.
Perhaps being nice to consumers is where free software is going wrong
And yet, CDs in the states are still way cheaper than they are here in the UK. Chart CDs tend to be around £13 while less popular stuff goes up to £18.
I'd prefer to be able to pay US prices!
If that were the real reason, they'd need *country* encoding. Region 1 is just the US and Canada (right?), so that might work. But Region 2 is Europe. Here we don't even speak the same language, so having the same distribution agreements would just be a pipe-dream...
The reason they *say* they want region coding is to reduce cost(!). If they release a film on the same day world-wide, it costs more and takes much more organisation that doing one region at a time. With region coding, they can release the DVD in the states at the same time as they release the film to theatres in the UK without allowing DVD sales to encroach on ticket sales.
"I think such a price differential is fine - the product has a very high setup cost (making the movie) but a very low marginal cost (pressing another disk.)"
Hollywood seems very keen on telling us everytime that a film has recuperated it's costs in the first weekend in the cinema. In this situation, DVDs are just more profits. They're not priced according anything else but greed.
It could be suggested that they are priced high against VHS to indicate that DVDs are better and are worth more. It could also be suggested that the movie industry wants people to carry on buying VHS so that they buy the movie a second time when they finally switch to DVD.
We have 15% tax here in Ontario (Canada). The prices are considerably lower than in the UK.
Original weave story: (Score -1: clueless troll)
Explain to me about Snatch then? It's been through the cinemas in N. America, where I missed it. It was released 6 mos ago in Britain... I would have got it on import a long time ago if I could watch. I would have preferred to buy the UK version too as it's less likely to have cheesy Americanised gimmick content like the cockney dictionary that was on Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.
The movie industry is FOS when it comes to zoning, and their excuse about concurrent theatrical and video releases in different countries doesn't cut it. I don't think they had any really big issues with VHS, so I wonder if DVD will be any different? Also, there are other big differences, such as NTSC vs. Pal vs. different versions of Pal vs. Secam.
The prices for CDs at Best Buy have not changed substantially in the past 18 years I've been shopping at that chain(back when they were called Sound of Music).
Most CDs I buy are around $12-13, I've purchased a few new releases there for $10.
I honestly don't think Best Buy cared about that lawsuit. It dealt with the record labels forcing fixed prices or failing to provide advertising money to the stores.
I rather doubt you'll ever seen prices of CDs go down from where they are today. But you can keep hoping, I guess.
Stop trying to say this is some Communist plot to steal movies. In reality it is the MPAA that is doing Communist/Socialist things, using government power to meddle with the free market. If it were not for government rules put into place due to the MPAA, DVD players from the USA would be imported and sold there, and disks from the USA would be imported and sold there, and region encoding would be useless.
I would agree that the repair required is to get rid of these trade barriers, not further regulations like "you must sell the disks for the same price as in the US". Such regulations always have bad side effects...
Truth is, the depression was caused by hundreds of factors. There is at least one in there for every possible political persuasion be able to say "they didn't do it my way, and that caused the depression!"
Localisation for console games is generally non-trivial. Japanese character sets take up more VRAM than English. Europe runs at a different framerate, and screen size, and recquires multiple languages loaded.
Personally (and speaking as a developer) I'd much rather we only had to ship (and consequently, develop, and test) one version, rather than three.
I wish that someone (or some group) would check out the prices of [System Administrators] in the states (and around the worls for that matter). I know that there are [training] and [teaching] costs that come with each [sysadmin] but to pay $ [85,000/yr] for a [bearded whacko who treats his fellow employees as if he's pissing on them from a great height] on is crazy. I think this is why [Microsoft] became so popular. If it was easy to [setup] and [make changes to DNS records from a GUI] I am sure we would see a rise in [Microsoft stock].
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
Elaborate.
My preference is original language audio with English subtitles. It's rare for any dub to come close to the quality of the original - although there are some.
And, Finland is so small market that the translations aren't all that good. Fortunately dubbing is rare and subs are cheaper, so we mostly have decent to good subs. However, I still often go rather for English sub than Finnish one.
Oh yes, mostly I don't even have a choice.. I can either go for R2 original Japanese edition which I wouldn't understand, or R1 US English language edition. No European (let alone Finnish) release.
You can always tell a "geek" (I'm happily one myself...minus the chicken head biting) because they're the ones who see the technology and not the purpose/usefulness behind things (which is what leads to a lot of failed projects...it isn't a checkout line that "gives a total and facilitates a payment" to a geek: It's a laser scanning system that moves at 3600 cycles per second, coupled via canbus at 2.2Mbps to a SeredapTM unity controller that...blah blah blah). It's the whole forest/trees thing. However the reality is that they're discussing DVDs, and the fact that "Entertainment: Films" costs 25% more in the EU. What else does that possibly relate to?
Another thing that I always find hilarious (I'm referring to other posts here) is all the bullshit thievery justify that you see on Slashdot (I truly think that there is a substantial criminal element on Slashdot, but they all try to pretend they're Robin Hoods looking out for mankind. These are the same people who shoplift and rip off bikes because "Hey man, it wasn't locked. He doesn't deserve to have this bike"): If you think that the price of CDs/DVDs/movies/BMWs is expensive -> _DON'T_BUY_THEM_! Wasn't the whole supposed purpose of Napster to let all the independent's that were being held down by the big mean music industry have their chance at fame? Why is it then that most of you get on Napster to rip off Radiohead or Britney Spears (between posts on Slashdot talking about how you would buy the CD if only they were less expensive...yeah right. That's right jimmy : Pretend that instead of just stealing you're a righteous crusader for all that is good). How pathetic. Look in the mirror and evaluate your activities because this circular reasoning to support irrational activities is proposterous. And you wonder why the industry pursues initiatives such as SDMI.
Scan SC2000, £163 inc. VAT from www.scan.co.uk
Upgradeable firmware via CD-ROM, plays VCDs, MP3s, etc.
I bought one as a wedding present for a couple I know and they like it too.
~Cederic
yeah, but I hate litigation, so I'm just screwing 'em. You sue'em, the EU'll shut'em down.
Hmm. On Friday Amazon (yeah, ok) delivered five DVDs to me at work.
I live/work in the UK, which is in region 2. All five discs were region 1.
Better yet, they are all the new improved "wont work on regionless players" region 1.
Y'know what? I stuck them in my DVD player on Saturday, and they all work fine. And that DVD player can also play all the region 2 discs I own.
So I'm a little confused by the zoning thing. As far as I can tell, its main purpose is to give me more choice of which DVD I want to buy - the overpriced region 2 disc with minimal extras, or the region 1 Criterion Collection version with four commentaries, outtakes, storyboards, etc. Don't forget the other regions (also playable on my player).
Since I haven't had my player modified - even by the company I purchased it from - but use only its core built-in technologies, and since the player costs about half of a decent video player, anybody that gets caught by regionalisation either doesn't care or is too daft to know. And most people in the UK are not too daft..
~Cederic
Snatch? Try old movies like Casablanca, Spartacus, Ben Hur, the list goes on: It's a very petty excuse on their behalf.
This is the infamous "Hollywood accounting", a branch of applied mathematics that enables movie studios and record companies to sell a product to every carbon based life form in the universe, and still claim that they haven't made a profit, and don't have to pay money to people whose contracts entitle them to a percentage of the net profits.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Actually from what I understand the DVD region coding might violate some WTO treaties. I haven't seen anything outside of rumors about this, but from my understanding of the WTO it would make a lot of sense. The region codes are definately a barrier to trade. Wouldn't that be a kicker, the WTO doing something good for consumers? If they can get laws banning the sale of non-dolphin safe tuna shot down, why not get the dvd region coding system destroyed.
-matt
Because the region coding system creates trade barriers, something which is illegal under the terms of the WTO treaties. It's crap like this that the WTO should be stepping in on, not stuff such as bans on sale of products that harm the environment.
Of course IANAL so more than likely I'm talking out of my ass. Does anyone know for certain about this?
-matt
first, what do you mean by 'his efforts' do you mean how hard he had to work, the impact on the society (popularity of the work), the positive or negative aspect of that impact, etc ? Here you see that the definition of the 'effort' is not clear.
Which leads to the second loophole : the fact that copyright makes the reward proportional to whatever you call 'effort' or 'merit' is an illusion, an utopian goal of the proponents of IP. Take the example of a movie director : he can ask for a salary, or work for free and ask for a share of the movie's revenue. Depending on the success of the movie and his choice, his income can be vary a lot for the same effort. If you write a unintersting book but your a celebrity, or a relative of a celebrity, you will sell it. If you're an unknown would-be writer, even if your book is good, you'll have a lot of trouble selling one book.
The real argument against copyright is the expression you use yourself : artificial scarcity. You may remember that communists wanted to create artificial abundance of things that were naturaly scarce. You want artificial scarcity out of things that are naturaly abundant. This is doomed to be proven as inefficient.
I think that there are other ways to give an incentive to creating arts, sofware, etc, than to try to create an artificial scarcity. Moreover, I think that this particular method is unfair and inefficient.
Copyright is one very particular method for rewarding artists. Others exist, more or less officialy. Some informally (voluntary gifts to a street performer, various advantages linked to celebrity for example), others formally, as the French droit d'auteur, in which artists (esp. composers), have an non-transferable right to a revenue derived from how much their work is disseminated (esp. public performance).
Most of the 'IP' that we enjoy today, from the architecture of cathedrals to Heisenberg's quantum formalism, including Beethoven's 9th symphony, have never been subject to a copyright.
According to the Bits, there is going to be a The Five Doctors special edition DVD, cleaned up, remastered, and chock full of bonus material.
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
Heck, even if he's only got a megaplex and a Blockbuster in his area, there are still DVD rental by mail places.
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
You sure could have fooled me. I still see VHS movies come out new for $25--and that's not even mentioning the practice of "pricing for rental"--selling VHS tapes at $60-100 or more for the rental market for a couple of months before dropping their price for consumers. DVDs haven't been priced for rental so far, though some of the studios are making noises about it.
It's all in what you're willing to pay, I suppose. For me, $20 for a movie I really like is a worthwhile investment.
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
People keep whining, "Oh, but it only cost pennies to make it!" as if they feel they should only be paying a few more pennies to buy it. Pressing a disk is not all that's involved in making it. There are more costs, and plenty of them. And even with those, studios have done a bang-up job keeping DVD prices low. It's purely amazing how many DVDs you can buy for under $15 these days, and just look at all the extra stuff you get when you buy a $25 DVD instead of a $25 VHS, even not counting picture quality.
And yes, it's true that you can get Hong Kong DVDs from the source for much cheaper than American movies--only $5 a disc plus shipping in many cases--but the economic environment is different over there, the incidental costs are often lower, and the $5 discs are usually second or third releases of titles that were more expensive originally.
I'm not arguing that prices couldn't be cheaper--they could always be at least a little cheaper. But to expect to be able to get a newly-released DVD for less than $15-20 is a pipe dream.
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
I've said it before--I'll say it again. A boycott is going to have no other effect than to gratify your ego at the cost of missing out on all the movies the rest of geekdom are enjoying. The MPAA and movie studios aren't missing your money. They're not going to go bankrupt because you aren't buying anything from them. You would need to get a heck of a lot more people to join you in your boycott even to be noticeable over all the people who haven't yet gotten around to getting DVD, but plan to sooner or later. And in a world where only twenty people show up to a much-publicized anti-DMCA protest in Washington, and where DVDs and players are being bought so fast they've become one of the fastest-growing consumer technologies ever--I just don't see that happening.
If you want to make a difference, then do something active. Donate to the EFF, write letters, tell people about the evils of region-locking and CSS (if you can explain it in terms that keep them from staring glassy-eyed at you--it's harder than it sounds). And by all means, boycott, if you don't want your money going to the MPAA. It's your money, do what you want with it. But don't you even try to present that as the overall solution. Boycotts rarely work; boycotts of popular products by a handful of people don't do very much. (I'm "boycotting" Pearl Harbor--not out of moral principles or anything, but because it looks like a really bad movie. Somehow, I don't think that's doing very much good.)
If region-encoding is going to fall, it's going to fall not because of an American geek boycott, it's going to happen because of the efforts of governments and commissions in places like Britain and Australia that are starting to get fed up by being ghettoized by the trade-restraining system imposed on them by the corporations. In the stories /.'s run over the last week or so, I can see that starting to happen. The boulder is wobbling on its perch, and sooner or later it will start rolling downhill.
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
CDs first appeared on the market in 1983, and since then, the Consumer Price Index (a US benchmark of inflation) has risen by two-thirds. If the price of a CD had kept pace with inflation, an album that cost $15 in 1983 would cost $25 now. So the real (inflation-adjusted) cost of a CD has come down.
--
send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
Yes there can be competition; several cases have been won in the EU courts concerning 'grey' imports (Levi Jeans IIRC) when importers buying goods from abroad find they can sell cheaper than the recognised importers. DVDs should be no different in this regard.
IP restrictions have little to do with this type of competition. Although the goods sold may be almost exactly the same [some US DVDs have better features than their EU counterparts], competition on price alone can be a good thing. We are meant to be a global economy; it should work in our favour for once.
Incidentally, I have no objections to copyright patents, et al. I think in the main they are a good thing, allowing inventors and artists to make a fair buck out of their efforts. I do have some quibbles over the length of copyright and certain types of patent (esp. S/W) though, since with copyright your descendants 4 times removed can still have copyright over your works (95 years, thanks to Disney). Copyright should last about 20-30 years, and software patents about 5-7 IMO.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I'm sure most of us view region encoding as anti-competitive, and indeed I have bought lots of region one DVDs to avoid UK DVD pricing, so what is the best way, as a UK citizen, to get our voice heard in this review ??
Incidentally, I would be interested to know what UK/ EU law has to say concerning fair use, DeCSS, obtaining or hacking your DVD player to be region free, and other DVD related issues. I know the Designs and Copyright Act 1988 may be relevant.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
You will probably find that people in Europe are probaly already buying from the US. I have a friend in the UK who orders all his DVDs from North America and still makes a saving when shipping is added to the cost.
When I was in the UK the other day I walked in to what look like a good brand hi-fi & TV shop and was surprised that the shop offered a 'modified chip' standard - I didn't even have to the ask the guy.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
One other interesting thing to note is the price of DVDs in comparison to video tapes. Even taking into account the fact that there are all the different parties wanting a slice of the cake, a DVD is likely to cost less to produce than a Video tape. Sure there are sub-titles and dubbing to be added, but then again that work has usually already been done for the big screen. Also it probably costs less to produce a multi-language DVD than it does to create and distribute 5 different videos for 5 languages.
The same argument can be given to CDs as compared to tapes, since CDs work out to be $5 more than you cassette tape.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
It's only after you find that there are only one or two tracks that are worth listening to that you realize you were rooked.
Then you must be buying shit music!
I keep seeing this bandied about as if it legitimizes piracy/Napster use. Erm, how about being more selective? I don't run off to every single Hollywood crap fest, because most of the time they don't interest me. Similarily, I don't run off and buy every CD in the Top 10 because most of those don't interest me either!
I must point out here that I haven't listened to the radio in over 3 years, so most of the CD's that I buy these days are back catalogue. IMO, any album that's over 5 years old should immediately be discounted to $10!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
I must be missing something, someone tell me why they can't charge whatever the fuck they want for their product.
BilldaCat
How about how the great depression came about because the government gave away everyone's gold?
Then made it illegal to own gold bullion? (not repealed until 1974)
Yeah, explain the economics, how this is anti-trust, how the WTO should ... *yawn*
But tell them that if they buy a movie they'll be forced to sit through up to ten minutes of trailers because their player won't repond to the FF or SKIP keys. Explain how the stores won't take it back even though it's obviously defective.
Ask how many times they'll sit through a movie that forces them to wait through trailers for movies they don't want.
That works! I've turned quite a few people off of DVDs.
The same thing worked with divx, just explain how the player has a huge rebate, those companies must really want to sell them... why? Because you have to pay, every time you watch that movie. Want to skip to the end to play the credits, or watch a favorite scene? Gotta cough up again. And now, divx is dead.
You can explain these things to people. But ignore the 'freedom' and 'rights' arguments. Explain the forced watching of trailers, etc.
I actually totally disagree with your second point there. In fact, that's the main point that I can't see a defence for.
I can see an argument that They don't want people seeing movies on DVD before they're released in the cinema. I may not agree with it, but I can see a case. As for worldwide cinema releases, I don't think that's practical, but maybe that's just me.
What I can't see a defence for is releasing the same movie on DVD with different features in different regions. For example, if I get the region 2 version of Crouching Tiger (I'm in Ireland), it has the movie and nothing else (more or less). The region 1 and region 3 versions have extra interviews, commentaries, etc. This means I have a choice between a sub-standard copy, or an 'illegal' copy.
Incidentally, there are dvd players out there that get totally around RCE. They have several region modes: you can set them to a specific region or set them to auto-detect.
disclaimer: maybe I'm wrong about CTHD, but there are plenty of cases like this, so I don't need to be corrected, thanks.
Cheers,Noims
This is not the greatest sig in the world. This is just a tribute.
My post wasn't defending intellectual property, it was just explaining the reasoning behind its existence to someone who had an absolute view on property in general. To get back to your comment, I agree that the current system is flawed, although I don't believe that the abundance of art is so natural that there isn't any artificial scarcity needed to promote its creation. You are probably right in the case of software, but most likely wrong in the case of books.
-- Spelling and grammar errors tend to be a sign of erroneous thinking.
Your reasoning is based on a concept of intellectual property which leaves out one of the two reasons of its very existence. The first reason for intellectual property is based on John Locke: a man should be rewarded for his efforts (and women too, but they didn't matter that much in Locke's time). The second one is that the exclusionary rights are granted on the premise that artificial scarcity is needed to get people to produce works of art. The freedom to copy anything you like is limited in order to get something which can be copied in the first place. Along this line of thinking copyright is a privilige which should not be abused. Artificially high prices which are way beyond the level that is needed to sustain the productions of new works of art are such an abuse. If you take this into account, which you didn't, the whining about DVD prices sounds a lot less petty than it does according to you.
-- Spelling and grammar errors tend to be a sign of erroneous thinking.
Well, the two reasons I mentioned are the only two mentioned in the vast amount of legal literature on the subject. I'd love to hear additional ones, since I am writing a thesis on the subject and would appreciate it very much if I could include lesser known doctrines in the field.
On the subject of the 'right' price for works of art, I wouldn't dare to have an opinion on that since I am not an economist but a law student. Economists do have such opinions however. An interesting economic analysis on the current state of intellectual property can be found here. If you read it carefully, you'll see that copyright is supposed to strike a balance, contrary to your absolute view on intellectual property and also contrary to the anti-intellectual stance which is so much en vogue here.
-- Spelling and grammar errors tend to be a sign of erroneous thinking.
Well, thanks for the reference to the other two theories. I intend to cover more than one theory in my thesis, although I personally am more in favour of the utilitarian one.
Nonetheless, your subscription to the labour theory doesn't matter to the current copyright law, or droit d'auteur as it is called in civil law systems is based on the two I mentioned before, with copyright law having a slightly more utilitarian emphasis than the droit d'auteur. Patent law and trademark are strictly based on the utilitarian view.
I definitely don't want to shove down a certain view by referring to an academic paper. The reason I referred to it is to prove that the current view on copyright is based on those two theories and that an economic analysis proves that at times the prices for protected works are too high. That doesn't require you to accept any of my views, only to accept that your view is one-sided, or at least oriented to copyright law as it should be in your opinion, not to what it is right now.
-- Spelling and grammar errors tend to be a sign of erroneous thinking.
This is very different with medias. Be it software, music or motion pictures. Once you payed for the production and/or development costs, the cost of a copy is marginal.
I wanted to put this in the thread and figured this was as good a place as any. Several people thus far have mentioned the cost of DVDs as well as CDs. The upfront costs for production and development are indeed significant and the actual cost of the media is nominal. It should be noted that each work is not a profit center unto itself. What this means is that if a film company has a solid hit and makes millions in profit off of a particular film, that does not make the film company profitable. They still have to recoup the cost of films that didn't make money. This works for CDs and for books as well, where the most profitable items subsidize the cost of the less profitable items.
It's quite simple really and I don't see what there is to whine about it.
How about price fixing?
There's a good reason for it and the Slashdot crowd that gets all music for free from Napster / Limewire / Gnutella / whatever and pirates movies with DivX is a good example of why the zones are there.
I don't have any facts to back this up, but I suspect that the slashdot contingent are very significant consumers of DVDs and CDs considering the demographic of the site.
"Piracy" is the act of robbery on the high seas. What you are referring to is copyright infringement, which is what occurs when someone makes a copy of a copyrighted work and distributes that copy. Isn't it interesting how our state-of-mind gets co-opted by the media such that we actually begin to believe that the simple act of copying someone's intellectual property is actually theft or piracy?
So you say I should unwillingly subsidize those films I never went to see, and you call that a free market?
I'm not saying that at all. My point is just that there is a cost component that people don't seem to realize. I personally abhor the MPAA and the RIAA for a few very explicit reasons but that doesn't change the facts as they are.
That's one of the important points here.
The DMCA give large publishers the power to erect licensing regimes on content players. Protected/encrypted media is just a hook to force manufacturers to sign a license. Don't like the licensing terms? Too bad for you, since RE'ing the protection would be illegal under the DMCA.
Macromedia'ed analog output, no digital output, region locks and no fast forward are not part of CSS, they are part of the DVDCCA license.
What is scary, is that this license can be kept secret from the general public. That is, they can force-feed us use control technology without disclosing the terms.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
The problem is the record companies go beyond mere packaging to interfere with people's rights to use recording technology in whatever way they see fit. Examples are:
- the tax on blank media that already assumes you're doing unauthorised copying - whether you are or not
- the killing of DAT
- the CPRM initiative
Personally, I think CD prices are ridiculous. The problem is there is no alternative. As new technology emerged which promised efficient ways of distributing music, did the record companies embrace it? Of course not - they slapped it down with armies of lawyers. For the record, they still have yet to come up with an alternative. Reason: control. The CD is as equally friendly to control as all its predecessors.--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
That's strange, I have a Sony DAV-500 that was region-free out-of-the-box. I guess the mod was done at the resellers; all I had to do was ask the salesman "is it region-free?"; the reply was "standard".
:)
Then again, this is New Zealand; I understand it's harder to find region-fixed players in the stores than region-free ones...
Cheers
Alastair
-- "I believe the human being and the fish can coexist peacefully." - George W. Bush, 29 September 2000
You know, there's more to the world than just the US of A. At current exchange rates full-priced CDs in Europe cost usually around $16-$22. I pay $17-$18 for my new CDs and $6-$10 for used CDs. A couple of years ago when EU hadn't yet crashed the value of the money the price range for CDs was more like $21-$30.
As for DVDs, many people in Europe are aware of region modified players. Basically every PAL player can play NTSC discs by default, and region modifications are easy (but often not very cheap) to get. For many people (like myself) the reason is not the price, it's the number of discs available. About one third of my collection is not available in Europe, though some discs are all-region.
Also, there are often significant differences between the different region versions of the same title. Some European discs have to give up some extras to get space for more audio tracks. Sometimes even the quality of video and audio can vary, though usually PAL video is superior to NTSC despite the slight speed difference.
In Finland most new full-priced DVDs cost around $20-$30, with some bargain titles being even $10 or less. A bit surprisingly, ordering new discs from Australia seems to be the cheapest option ($14-$18 including P&P), even cheaper than getting discs from the US. And many Australian discs are identical to European versions, even having two region codes (R2 and R4, Europe and Australia).
Umm.. Could it be that they cost 25% more because the people are prepared to pay 25% more? The price is set so that they get maximum profits from the sales. If they put a higher price, they would lose money because people wouldn't buy the DVD's anymore. If they put a lower price, they would lose money because people would buy just the same but for a cheaper price. It's quite simple really and I don't see what there is to whine about it. I own close to 50 DVD's and God knows how many CD's and it would never occur to me to bitch about the prices. If you can't afford it, don't buy it! It's not like we're talking about a basic life necessity here, like food or water or something. Do you also cry about that Ferrari's cost too much?
DVD zoning sucks, of course, since it means you can't really buy DVD's from, let's say Amazon.com if you live in Europe but it's not like they put the zones there just to piss people off. There's a good reason for it and the Slashdot crowd that gets all music for free from Napster / Limewire / Gnutella / whatever and pirates movies with DivX is a good example of why the zones are there. They probably don't work too well since it's very easy to get a zone-free DVD player, but that's besides the point.
I think you just proved beyond a doubt why distributing music on CDs deserves to go the way of the dinosaur. It's so much easier just to download things.
/., but it's still TRUE! e-gold (try it, and I'll click you some if you send me an account number) has been keeping the promises others made about the 'net since since the currency went online in 1996, with minimal hype. Is it perfect? No, but it's good enough to solve the problem of compensating musicians for downloads without compensating 4 layers of record-industry lard-asses in the process, and that's why I rant repeatedly about it. (I want to be the lard-ass who gets the trips to Scores, so I guess this comment rates "-1, greedy-as-hell," but who knows -- I don't care, I just know that we're more efficient with voluntary tips than the present system, and probably better for music, too.) Thanks for listening (again, in many cases).
Yes, you're right that downloading is easier and more efficient for you, but there's something you forgot to mention (probably accidentally, I'm not accusing you of anything).
We need to remember to compensate the artists! Musician/actress Courtney Love in her Salon piece says WHAT is needed -- tips (even Robert Cringely has finally, slowly, gotten it) -- but she doesn't say HOW. I have a way to solve the how question, and cut out a lot of middlemen (who won't be happy losing their trips to Scores, etc. that Courtney mentions).
I know, I've said this over & over here on
JMR
Try e-gold - (contact me). I'm NOT e-
To give you an example of why any movie buff needs to crack regions:
Citizen Kane, one of the most honored films of all times, the AFI's number one film on their list, is not available on DVD in the US.
I bought my copy in the UK, and can't imagine a comprehensive film collection without this vitally important film. Why is every Adam Sandler film available on DVD in the US, and Orson Welles' masterpiece isn't?
I own 500 DVDs, and love the format, but I can't imagine not being able to play any DVD I wish. Region coding is indefensible.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
Because some of us are interested in things outside the US. In particular, Anime DVDs are often region-coded for Japan....
"The simplest solution is to ignore your dead children."
That's what the regional pricing is, in the macro sense.
When this happens, I'm going to be spending lots of time at the library, if it still exists, or rereading my books. I don't need packaged entertainment badly enough to put up with any of this--as one poster said in another thread "any data processed on my computer is by my sufferance," which sums up my sentiments nicely. If I have to use a C-64 to play games rather than using "individually rented streamed 'games on demand,'" then so be it.
Well, then, they have two and only two legitimate options: get it into the cinema earlier or release the DVD later.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
This language implies that the studios have some sort of natural right to continue making profits using their existing business models, forever and ever, amen. They don't.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Then there are a lot of crazy people here. BTW, whenever you buy a CD, you are saying the price is worth it. Because instead of keeping the cash ($15), you are giving it up voluntarily for the object. It doesn't matter what people say: when they buy something, they are saying with their action: "It's worth it." (Of course, there are exceptions for monopoly/cartel necessities, of which I can't think of any examples right now).
It's only after you find that there are only one or two tracks that are worth listening to that you realize you were rooked.
--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
What about your damn VAT? It's 17.5% in U.K. for example. Maybe that has something to do with it....
Original BBC story: (Score -1: clueless idiots)
There's a difference. In the U.S. prices are quoted exclusive of sales tax. In Europe, prices are almost always quoted inclusive of VAT. Also, not all of us live in a state with a sales tax. I certainly don't (Delaware).... It's a joy, let me tell you. Being able to go buy something for $9.99 and actually being able to pay for it with just a ten dollar bill.
Besides, making comparisions using current exchange rates is ridiculous. The pound is doing horrible against the dollar currently, which makes all the difference in the world. How about quoting how many hours an average worker in each country has to work to pay for a typical DVD. That would make far more sense...
What I don't understand is why there aren't more outcries about stuff that is far more substantial, like why computers in the U.K. are priced about on parity with U.S. computer prices where a buck and a quid are equal. That's gotta hurt a lot more than paying an extra bob or two on a DVD...
Here in Argentina CDs are $20....
He is the Path, the Truth and the Life
Actually, they cost ~$18 for me. No big difference there.
I wish that someone (or some group) would check out the prices of CD's in the states (and around the worls for that matter). I know that there are marketing and royalty costs that come with each CD but to pay $15 for a CD is crazy. I think this is why MP3's became so popular. If it was easy to compress and move a movie over the net I am sure we would see a rise in movie sharing.
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?"
> 'If you cut off their XXXXXX XXXXXXX legs there ain't gonna be no more kicking'.
:-( I'm trying to stop drinking soda. I know it's not good, but yet I continue buying it because I like the taste. And it keeps the soda companies in biz. In essence I have "voted" with my money.
You are right, a business without any customers no longer can afford to stay in business. But the problem is too many suck^H^H^H^Hconsumers continuing to buy something they think they "need."
Myself is a perfect example
I can see the same thing with people buying DVD's.
The root of the problem with "bad" corporations is ourselves. We need to continue active boycotting and show more people how to wake up from what is going on around them.
* Scene selection.
* Interactive menu.
* Polish subtitles.
That's just a joke. There are, of course, exceptions, but this it what it generaly looks like. And director's commentary? Forget it, I don't own a single European DVD with director's commentary.
So I've ordered 70% of my movies from the US. Some of them have come in before the movie played in the cinemas in Poland (Iron Giant, Under Suspicion) and others have *never* been released here (The In Crowd, Belly, Bjork's All Is Full Of Love).
So why do they region code movies 10 years old?
Surely by then they have had their run in cinemas worldwide.
This is a separate issue. Unlike with DVDs, with videogames there are technological reasons for this. PAL has a higher resolution and lower framerate than NTSC, and sometimes bugs show up in PAL that aren't seen in NTSC. Generally, the videogame engine is tweaked a little, and the game has to run through another round of QA. So the game that shows up in Europe is a bit different than the one in the US.
I remember at EA we released a PAL version of FIFA with a major bug because it had been tested on PAL systems running on 110 instead of 220. So now there is a large converter that outputs 220 for PAL testing purposes.
As for Japanese/US partitioning, the reasons are a little bit less clear. I think the main reasons are licensing and language. Most licensed properties are for the Japanese arena only and the videogame publishers don't want consumers to be able to accidentally by a Japanese version of a game. I don't think it is too big a burden for those few that want Japanese language games to buy a Japanese language console, although it will be nice to have region free consoles and games. I know some of the PS2 games are being developed in both English and Japanese.
Actually, could not the EU ban the import/distribution/sale of region coded software, movies, music, etc?
Case in point: Ninja Tune's Xen Cuts. Yes, it's a compilation CD, but it's all of $19 for 3 CDs packed of goodness. (if you think that's steep, go to The Wall and see what they're charging for new CDs: $19 apiece)
Ani DiFranco's new double CD? $13.
Not to be a music snob, but if spending that much on overinflated CDs bothers you, kick the major label habit and pick up some indie stuff. There's a world of goodness out there waiting to be discovered.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
Well, some of us do, at least. I don't really have any good reason, since I don't own DVDs yet, but it bothers me that something standard like a DVD disc should play in as many countries as a regular audio CD, but doesn't(apparently).
What they're probably doing is trying to make it more expensive for rare/import collectors to get away with doing it for cheap. Slap "U.K. version" on any audio CD, and it instantly turns into this 1337 muz4k for dedicated fans to own. Make it so that you have to by a U.K. DVD player to play your imports, and voila, instant cash cow! Just add ridiculous laws!
This is a manual virus. Copy it to your sig and help me spread!
It's called Europe, funny I didn't know you called it this way on the American side of the Atlantic...
"Naughty, naughty, naughty, you filthy old soomka !"
Did I say I was even talking about the United States? You just assumed that. Truth is, the great depression effected a lot of other countries as well: Canada, Britian, and the rest of Europe for that matter. For the most part, Canada didn't have much intervention in the economy before this time. Its true that the stock market was heating up in those days. Buying on margin, stock market speculation, mass purchasing of penny stocks, drought, and mass production with no buyers are all other causes of the depression that are related.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
So you say I should unwillingly subsidize those films I never went to see, and you call that a free market? Don't get me wrong, you've got a good point, but I still don't think it justifies much. It's not like I couldn't live without the MPAA or RIAA. In fact, the world would probably be much better without. Both the movie- and record industry in the USA is wildly successful and have lost all ground-contact. That's not something I'm willing to sponsor through stiff prices and commercialisation.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
There are a couple of issues here.
1) Have you noticed that all those $20 Warner DVDs are pushed over to the side, almost like Bargin DVDs. I wonder if it's the retailers dictating the price. Ie, the also make more money selling a $50 DVD vs a $25 DVD. Or, it's the Japanese believe that price = quality. If it's only $20 and all the other DVDs are $50 then they must be bad movies.
2) A Movie ticket costs $18 in Japan. That makes a DVD approximate double the cost of seeing the movie in the theatre. About the same ratio as the U.S.
3) I know this is not true for DVDs since I've seen fluctating prices (ie, Kiki's Delivery Service [Majo no Takubin] is $42 at Sakuraya and $47 at Tsutaya) but, has was reported here on Slashdot, Books are not allowed to be sold at a discount in Japan by law. Maybe there is a similar law for DVDs?
The "cultural asset protection" law is only for books/magazines. DVD's are just like the 120 yen vending machine cola -- No price fixing here. ;-)
Given the book law, it's a wonder that Amazon has even tried to open up shop here. It's great for me to order English books (they freely discount them from the suggested Japanese retail price, so it ends up being close to what you'd pay in the US); but is the market really that large??
One of these days enough common folks will know about the region coding that enough lawers and political reps will figure out that their hide will be thicker if they go after it. And until then, region-flexible players sound like the way to go.
Evan - needs to hit preview before submitting
At least now the GOVERNMENT is stepping ni to decide our rights. I am not entirely sure this is GOOD, but it's sure nowhere near as BAD letting the corporations run over our rights unchecked.
I just wish voters were less apathetic so they could decide their own rights.
Also, the best way to kill piracy is to lower the price of DVD's below what it would cost to burn the stuff to DVD-RAM/ROM! Jeez. If a DVD costs $10, and the DVD media costs $15 or more, why would you pirate the thing?? Ok there is the Divx compression -> CD-Rom aspect, but now you're missing all the interactive features...
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
No thanx.
I'd rather not support crime or purchase what I thought was a ripped/pirated CD. Everyone knows that stolen merchandise often ends up in a pawn shop.
If you *really* want to legally purchase the CD, purchase from a CD reseller/tradestore. Most retail outlets also sell these. Often the quality is not that bad, and once you rip to mp3/OggVorbis, you should be well on your way to not caring about the original media
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
If they can afford to sell them for $5 (price made up off the top of my head) in India, is it fair that the same thing be sold for $30 in USA? I think such a price differential is fine - the product has a very high setup cost (making the movie) but a very low marginal cost (pressing another disk.) It is just like cheap educational deals for software packages - you recover your costs from the people who can afford to pay full price, and sell cheap to those who can't, because anything you get from them is still a bit of profit.
The alternative to ($30 in US, $5 in India) isn't ($5 in US, $5 in India), it is ($30 in US, $30 in India.)
Come to think of it, there is another alternative - it is $30 the first year after release, $5 5 years after release. If the zoning system fails (as it seems to be) we may well see this model.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
How would you feel if all the companies that made hard drives got together and decided to raise prices to $10/GB? I'd be upset at this bit of collusion, since i know that in a competitive market, they'd be selling it for less. However, I'd still buy hard drives, since their value to me is far greater than $10/GB.
Being economical for me to purchase the drive does not make the price at an optimum point for the economy. The problem with monopoly-level pricing is that you reduce the amount of consumer surplus, reduce the amount of consumption, thus the economic benefits are reduced. The only one who gains is the monopolist, but these gains are smaller than the maximum consumer surplus. This is why collusion is illegal in countries with free markets.
Collusion is what the large record companies (with the help of their industry association, riaa) has done. Last year, they were fined heavily and forced to reduced CD prices because of this collusion.
Please people: Learn your basic economics, or you'll continually be duped by uneducated arguments from monopolies like microsoft and riaa.
Switzerland does that. If you can't buy access for it in Switzerland, you're entitled to break the protection. This applies to satellite TV, too, and third-party set-top box unlocking cards are sold openly and legally.
The key to this is that multiple companies are conspiring to impose the region coding system on users. This is "conspiracy in restraint of trade". In the US, that's illegal, but enforcement has been weak since the Carter administration. In the EU, it's also illegal, although the laws are different. The EU is getting more aggressive about enforcing the EU directives against such things.
People have to be educated before boycotting will work.
There is a perception that because a DVD is better quality (than VHS), that it should therefore cost more. Pretty much the same argument that CDs had over LPs and cassettes. This is hogwash of course. A DVD weighs less, takes up half the volume, and the cost to manufacture (even considering mastering). This combination of the weight, volume and price makes floorspace selling DVDs four times more profitable than selling VHS. People should be aware of that. Add to that the regional encoding issue which, especially outside of the US artifically raises prices even more and it all comes down to one thing:
People are being ripped off.
Once that fact sinks in, I suspect consumers will boycott or certainly be more selective of which titles they buy. Prices will come down if that happens.
You know I really don't like the idea of dvd regions, profit setting, higher prices in different markets... but guess what? There is something I can do about it. I will simply not buy dvd hardware. You people do not deserve a DVD player. You are not intitled to one by law. If you don't like what they are doing with them, DON'T BUY THEM. Guess what, if enough people don't buy a product it doesn't stay around, a new approach is taken to pricing and distribution until one that will work, well... works. This model works because all of you complaining still go out and purchase the hardware and the media. YOU are just as much to blame. YOU are part of the problem. If you want people to presure the MPAA, RIAA, Microsoft or whoever the random company or group that is doing something you don't agree with, then get off your ass and start educating. BUT DON'T FUCKING WHINE ABOUT IT ON SLASHDOT! Take five minutes the next time you're in your local electronic store and you see someone looking at a DVD play to explain what exactly the regional id system is all about. If you get the word out, and have a better way, people will eventually begin to listen. And finally as for music and movies going away if some lock down system comes, you are wrong. The system will work if people use, it however won't work if people don't and the big companies will come up with something that eventually will, and perhaps it might be something that would be more "Fair" as many have said.
Just head over to www.techtronics.com and buy one then! Many of the smaller DVD manufacturers (ie. not the ones like Sony and Matsushita that own film studios as well) have a habit of making these 'engineer' features only just hidden enough to avoid losing their DVDCCA license, and so Techtronics style chipping isn't even always necessary.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
As many people are finding with RCE, there are mod chips and mod chips. As different players control their features differently, adding all these extras is easier on some than others. I don't know a place that disables the feature lockout on the Pioneer 525, but this is available on some players - check the Sony 735 for example of their 'skip FBI warning' feature.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Sony are holding out on out-of-the-box multi-region, because they own Columbia Pictures. The multi-region thing may help sell your player, but region lockout helps your bottom line more, it would appear.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
"The best way to get the price of DVDs down is to stop buying them!!!"
Only partially true. No-one bought DiVX when Circuit City launched it. Result - the format dies a death. Very few people bought laserdiscs. Result - Special Editions costing over $100 and even bare-bones discs at $40.
What you are saying is true to some extent, as I'm sure Paramount would drop their prices closer to some of the cheaper studios if they thought the numbers looked bad at their current price, but you are only getting your cheap discs in Walmart (or any discs in Walmart) because they are selling well.
In any case, the issue here is that discs in the EU are significantly more expensive than US discs. What the EU are probably concerned about is that Region Encoding is locking the average consumer into buying the expensive local disc, rather than importing a cheap US one. Naturally, the clued in just mod chip their players round the problem, but thats not a solution for everyone.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
As long as this is the case retailers in Europe will sell either exclusively region 2 disks or both region 1 and region 2 disks. So the markets are smaller and so there will be higher costs and less competition. And therefore the prices will be higher.
The fact that disks can be cheaper when ordered through inefficient means as mailorder from the States or Jersey tells it all: you are being screwed. Sure a little less than some other people, but you still pay more than you would have to in a market without regions.
--
Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
You mean i can do that?
Better get up to date with my pirating skills - i need to feel that "i'm part of the gang" ...
It's not just DVDs that are zoned. Many videogame CDs are also zoned and the US versions are considerably cheaper than the European versions. I know the companies will provide "reasonable" arguments for this ("wse don't want to have US gamers suddenly finding their games in Japanese", "we don't want European players fidning the NTSC disk won't work") but surely there is a difference between warning about compatabilities vs. actively preventing the disks playing, even though many people can play US disks on their Europan system, for example. I think this would provide them with a much argument against modchips as there would no longer be a "legal" reason to modify your game console.
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
CSS Region coding is a tool used to "extract the customer surplus". You charge a price in a given market which is optimal for profits considering the number of units that will sell and the margin.
It is also the first step down a slippery slope. Its a tenative first step: right now the average person wont notice it, and will probably not even realize that it exists.
But if its accepted then it will fester. Pretty soon the price for a movie or a song will be set based upon which state you live in. Then by which city. Ultimatly they will charge each customer the most they are willing to pay.
We will each end up with "trusted" computers and electronics that use a "secure media path" all the way to the speakers and screen. Each individual will have to get their own copies, digitally signed to their account number and device id's. Of course when you buy a new Movie player youll have to buy your movies all over again- because the old ones will only play on your old player.
It wont be so bad, fairly well automated, all content downloaded online right into your player. $40 wont be too bad for a flick. And you dont really care that the rich guy down the street has to pay $400 for the same exact movie- thats his problem, right?
Is this where we want to end up?
Oh, don't worry, Switzerland wouldn't hurt a fly unless the fly attacked first, but then, if the fly attacks it has got no chance against them.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
Hmmm... we have to pay about $20. Don't you guys complain :)
I remember the EU had an investigation into CD prices some years ago. They found that yes, we are being overcharged for CDs compared to prices in the states.
However, they had absolutely no powers to do anything about this...
I would imagine this is the same kind of thing. A load of people will be handsomely paid to sit on their arses for months, and finally say that, yes, we are being overcharged for DVDs, and yes, we are often getting an inferior product due to the regioning.
But they will have no powers to do anything, and like the US CD companies, the US DVD companies will go "So what?" and carry on regardless.
All this will do is keep a bunch of minor politicians in work for a while. It won't benefit anyone.
Incidentally, less than half of my DVDs are region 1. They're either stuff you can't actually get in region 2 at all, or couldn't get in region 2 for a long, long time after they came out in region 1, or in one case it was cheaper to buy the region 1 and have it shipped over than it was to go to the shop and buy it in region 2!
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
The problem is that the hardware people have to sign an agreement with the DVDCCA to get a license for CSS decryption, and that license forbids the kind of things that you mention (except "decent quality").
Breach of contract, naturally. Also, there may be action under the DMCA because it's not specifically copy control mechanisms that cannot be bypassed, but access control mechanisms.
Thank you, Europe, for subsidizing my porn. That's all.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
The main reason why pricing is higher is that you have multiple middle men resulting in a higher price.
The same is true of video games. If you import(or have lived in japan), you might notice a lot of games with prices like 7800 or 9800 yen.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
It's the equivilent of sales tax, so in some places that knocks it down to 12.5%. So it's still 10%+ more.
So what would happen if a company just ignored that and went out and did it? I presume the MPAA would sue, but under what law?
If they claim DMCA, then how exactly is the device bypassing copy protection measures (even if the device did do Macrovision)? If all it did was allow multi-region playing, then how would the MPAA prove the copy protection bypass that is required by the DMCA?
So basically, that would mean that a company could go out and made a DVD player without a "license". How would they prevent it?
To: European Union
From: MPAA
Subject: W3 0wnz j00!
Dear European Union:
Now you have pissed us off, we have hired the l33t3st hax0rs in the world. We won't get rid of our regional codes; we have to make a profit and rape your wallets. Moreover, we have an obligation to eliminate -all- our competition from the face of the earth, and we will no matter what it takes. See, our goal is to take over the world, just like what we depict in Hollywood. I'm very sure though that we are the good guys in this one; after all, we are protecting our intelectual property.
Since you did send a letter from your competition department, we now see you as a threat to our existance. You fuckers are probably pirates, too! You and your open source coders like that Torvalds guy. We hate that; we refuse to lose a dime after all. We prefer ignorant americans just like ourselves buying into a system where we can rape wallets and pillage life savings; to protect our intelectual property.
Now you see where we are coming from. Expect that your piddly servers with your pirated content be DoS'ed soon by our scr|p7 k|dd|3s.
Regards,
The More Pathetic Assholes of America (MPAA)
P.S. -- And you thought we were the Motion Picture Association of America.
Karma whorin' since 1999
> I'm not sure if the BBC 'get it' yet, though:
> they filed this story under "Entertainment:
> Film".
As opposed to "getting it" Slashdot, which
filed it under "Movies". Ummmm...
Chris Mattern
Perhaps Dr Who's revival will evolve in to a feature length movie, and released on DVD. If this happens, I may begin to give a damn. The movie industry has consistantly backed new formats, but only if these formats are under their strict control. Is DVD better? Well duh.. but will I pay an extra $20 for it, give up my freedom to backup, archive, and record(at reasonable prices), or even to watch somthing my friend sent me from austrailia.. The answer to that is of course no. Eventualy DVD will either evolve in to a useable format, or go the way of betamax. Until then, my SVHS VCR works just fine.
In my considered and informed opinion:
They use zoning to screw as much profit out of each market place - GREED. We in the UK are specially profitable to them.
Protecting Intellectual Property is the excuse big business use in the courts for this greed. We as individuals have no rights in this area - see what the United Nations organization WIPO are doing, stealing peoples domain names.
Details on my site - WIPO.org.uk - no connection with, and wishes to be totally disassociated from, the World Intellectual Property Organization, WIPO.org - part of UN, paid for (owned?) by big business.
Last time I checked, contracts in restraint of trade were forbidden by the Sherman Antitrust Act.
sulli
RTFJ.
I visited New York some 8 months ago (im from Norway). My impression was the exact opposite. While Zone 1 movies cost about the same in both NY and Norway. Our Zone 2 movies are about $10 cheaper.
So i ended up just buying one movie. Terminator ultimate edition. Think it was on a Virgin Megastore on 5th ave close to the empire state building.
But maybe UK and EU, contradicting popular belif, is more expensive than Norway.
FYI. old dvds and B-movies one can get for $10/nok90. Regular films are $20/nok180. Some chessy companies demand $25 though.
Hold on a sec -- this is not flamebait, it's true! (just phrased a little aggressively).
From the article -
DVDs cost between £13-£20 in the UK, while US consumers pay just $15-$25 (£11-£18). Let's compare the low-low, high-high, with VAT.
£11 + 17.5% VAT = £12.925 (exactly at the UK low-end given).
£18 + 17.5% VAT = £21.15 (UK price is less than the VAT-adjusted US price).
UK prices are always quoted VAT-included, since that is how they are presented to cusomters. US prices are never quoted with sales tax included, since that varies from state to state and even town to town.
I'm not saying I put it past companies to be evil price manipulators, but I also don't put it past regulators to be either:
A) Dumb enough not to know there's a simple explanation or
B) Smart enough not to care
Kill, Tux, kill!
EU: "In that case, we demand that the region system is abandoned."
Depends who is in charge though...
Germany: We demand equality and freedom for our citizens. Ban region codes.
French: Dirty Hollywood ruins our lovely film industry. Abolish region codes, and while we're at it, let's ban US films period. That should annoy the Americans and the British at the same time.
Netherlands: Whatever the opposite of what Germany wants.
British: America is our friend. They are very nice people. Let's do what they want. Another missile base, Mr Bush? Why of course! Treaties? Oh I'm sure nobody's really bothered about those old things. Plus, it'll really annoy the French. Let's make imports cheaper and compulsary
Italians: There were rules about this?
Eastern Europe (as one voice): There are non-pirated versions?
Spain: Yeah, whatever.
Switzerland: We're not in the EU.
So it really depends on which contries sit on the comittee, really. And am I the only person in the world that is worried about the fact that all Switzerland's neighbouring countries would describe them as "shy, quiet.. keep themselves to themselves.. seem like really nice, polite fellows, wouldn't hurt a fly". It's only a matter of time.
---------------------------
'No rational religion claims "supernatural" exists, that's an atheist slander.' - seen on slashdot.
The higher pricing is probably because of the distribution companies inside the local country or the local versions of the parent company. The stand in the middle and rip people off school of business...
In Japan a "Pulp Fiction" DVD with Japanese subtitles is about $50... ow. Compared to the US where you can get them for $17. Hmmm... somehow I doubt the translator demands a 50% royalty. Of course you can get the Chinese version for $2 on the street. *wink* *wink*
Recently Warner Brothers has cut all their DVDs down to about $20 in Japan, about half the price of all the others... pretty crazy. So I am in the interesting situation of only being able to afford or justify purchasing DVDs which are from WB. If I want to watch with Japanese friends etc.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
but the availability of languages (even when all are using the same region code).
And that's my gripe. My family is Italian and we live in the US. My father never studied English. He can speak it, but often has difficulty understanding especially when someone speaks fast. He enjoys watching movies in Italian - that is when he can get his hands on it. Most DVDs from our local rental shop only have French and Spanish tracks on them. Cost is not the major issue - although he can't justify paying extreme markups to get the Italian equivalent of American movies.
Recently he purchased a bunch of DVDs directly from Italy. These were American movies dubbed in Italian. I had to rip the DVDs and convert them to VCD format so that he could watch his legally purchased DVDs. How annoying. He's considering buying a region free or a region selectable (better yet) DVD player. I just haven't found one that also has all the features of his current DVD player.
The MPAA would probably consider me a pirate (under the DMCA)for bypassing CSS to get around their region coding. Too bad for them - sue me. I wish the MPAA would get a clue and realize that the region coding annoys people.
If the prices WERE ridiculous then people wouldn't be buying CD's. Sure, I don't like paying $15 a CD, NO ONE does. But at the same time, If the record labels want to sell CD's at that price, and people buy them (and they do!) then I see no problem with this situation. It's not like the record labels are robbing you of some fundamental right--it's a luxury item people.
Scott
This is completely at odds with history. What about the "easy money" policies of the FED? What about the fact that the depression of the 30's was accompanied by one of the most economically activist governments in US history? Consider the many other recessions that were much shorter: 1837, 1857, 1873, and 1893 and a stock exchange panic in 1907, recessions in 1910 and 1913, and another panic in 1914 preceding World War I where the government did much less. Now consider the great depression with its much more activist government: it lasted more than ten years and took a world war to finally get us out of it. Thats a big arguement against government intervention.
This myth about how government intervention "saved us" from the great depression has to stop. The depression was needlessly prolonged by government intervention.
Oh, there are exactly two reasons are there? I submit that your reasoning is based on a concept of intellectual property that is unnecessarily restrictive. You say "the two reasons" when you really mean "two reasons I agree with."
This is why it is difficult to reason with people like you. You barely finish your first sentence and you've already taken your subjective values concerning property rights and tried to turn them into universal values.
Lets also consider what you mean by "high prices." What is "high?" Perhaps high to you is "beyond the level that is needed to sustain the productions of new works of art." Okay, so what is the level? The truth is all you can do is guess. Maybe there are too few restrictions on copying to "get people to produce works of art." How do we know the price isn't too low? Perhaps DVD's should be twice as much. You have no idea, yet I bet if you had the power, your guess as to the "right" price would come in on the low side. And it would be on the low side because of the simple equation: "I cant afford a DVD -> they are evil and charging too much!"
And what is an "artificial scarcity?" I use two of three bedrooms in my house. Am I creating an "artificial scarcity" by keeping the door locked and not letting strangers in to use the extra room? Do I have the right to create this "artificial scarcity"?
Your use of the terms "artificial scarcity" and "high prices" are examples of abstractions used to obscure the issue.
Finally,
"the whining about DVD prices sounds a lot less petty than it does according to you."
Oh, it is petty whining. Its entertainment for God's sake. People don't need DVD's to survive.
How is a creative work "naturally abundant?" Without people to create it, it doesn't exist at all. Copyright promotes an abundance of creative works. Without copyright, you would have a natural scarcity.
Yes, its that simple. You will hear a great deal about social goods or justice or morality or how some price is "unreasonably high". It is nothing but an elaborate (often self) deception. The logic in the end is the same. They want what someone else has created. If they can't get it at the the price they want, this makes the owner evil.
It is very difficult to reason with such people. There is an almost reflexive connection between their wants/feelings and judgements about what is right or wrong. The thinking very much resembles that of the religious zealot or homophobe. For them, the unconfortable feeling they get when they think of such things is enough to provoke a judgement that such things are wrong. There is no reasoning that goes on.
Take the example of "unreasonable price." Just how is anyone supposed to determine logically what a reasonable price is? Is there some formula? No. "unreasonable price" is just a synonym for "I don't like the price" or "I feel the price it too high."
My favorite is when people invoke the idea of a "social good." Again, most of the time, "social good" is just a synonym for "my good." In the end, they really mean "less good for them, more good for me." Really, how could it mean anything else? Values are ultimately subjective. How can anyone be in a position to determine objectively what is a "social good"? People who invoke the term "social good" really have no choice but to use their own values in deciding what is a social good and what isn't. For me, allowing people to charge what they what for what they make on the priciple that they are not slaves to society is a "social good." Others think this is incorrect. How can we decide objectively who is right? We can't. In the end issues of right and wrong come down to subjective judgement and personal value systems. I just wish people would be honest with me and themselves about where their own ideas of right and wrong come from and not hide behind elaborate abstractions like "social good."
We can discuss how it is we can get what we each want. Some will conclude that giving people the right to charge what they wish for what they create, in the end, will provide most of us with what we want. Other's will conclude that outright theft is the easiest way. Others will be somewhere in between. Its starts with people being honest with themselves.
So, the answer to the question is:
People can't charge what they want because other people don't like it. They are even willing to get violent about it (they hide behind the abstrations "illegal" and "law" and get professional thugs called "police" who have guns and batons to do their dirty work).
Front panel region selection
No macrovision
Disc script ignoring
Lock-out ignoring
Decent quality
The script and lock-out things are necessary because some (most?) DVD's have annoying "splash" scenes that play when you pick options. Or the scripts verify regions. Also many movies don't let you fast forward (FCC warnings), pause, rewind, etc.!!
Got friends?
It's really good that someone acts to investigate why we europeans have to pay a lot more for DVD movies. The higher prices in EU is probably why DVD isn't as big here as in the US.
This is where it shows corporations are two-faced and hypocritical. One one hand they preach the virtues of globalisation, the free movement of resources that become their inputs. The free movement of products that become their revenue stream. However, they dont want consumers to experience the good parts of globalisation. Consumers should not be allowed to be segregated into different markets so these film companies can charge higher prices. This is where the WTO should step in since it is clearly a limit to globalisation, of course the WTO represents who now?
-- Cheer, Cheer, The Red and the White.
Last time I checked, studios used region coding so foreign countries couldn't buy DVDs of movies not even released theatrically in their respective country yet. This is done so as to not rob the movie of any money to be made in its theatrical run.
Especially when it was posted under the topic of "movies."
"Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental." -Slashdot
You refer to the movie "Titanic". However, this was released on VHS too.
VHS has no regionalization scheme. Still, this worked without a hitch.
In fact, splitting the market between companies is so common these days (and illegal, mind you, if it happens to be done within one country's borders, at least in the US or EU) that using it as argument for DVD zoning is plain missing the target.
When they say zone protection is to protect their business, it's bullshit. It's to protect their profit without value-adding in their products. If they really want to prevent water goods, they can:
- Don't price up outragously in some regions
- Make some regional specific stuffs, e.g. european languages version, so that customers would prefer to buy they own regional version
In the past they'd focus on customers' satisfaction, now they find legal ways to restrict customers from making their own purchase preferences - with Government consent. That's sad.
Companies should not be allowed to make contracts that violates the most basic principles of free trade in the first place.
Anti-competitiveness is an inherent characteristics of the whole IP industry. Competition requires that, at least in principle, a competitor could produce a similar or better product. That's what competition is all about.
Producing a competing product is something that works fine for hadware of all kinds. If company X sells cars, company Y could build better, cheaper, or just different cars; the same for computers, intercontinental ballistic missiles, and so on.
To a certain degree, such plain competition may work for software as well. If company M sells operating systems, company L could sell their own operating system. Compatibility is however an issue here and can make competition really hard to achieve. But, as the open source movement shows, it is still possible to compete. It works because such software still has a connection to hardware. One will need software when and only when using a computer. One can chose which software to use on any given computer, but on cannot use software without a computer, i.e. without hardware.
Now consider movies, music, and books. These are completely virtual by nature. Usually they are distributed on carriers of various kinds, like DVD, paper, or the Internet. But in principle they are independent from specific carriers or types of carriers. That's BTW why the IP industry has a problem with copying of such products -- it's an inherent feature of them, as we all know. What the industry actually does is to charge for distribution, not for the work itself. They won't sell you music, they will sell you CDs.
How could a competitor compete here? Of course by distributing the same product in a somehow different way, e.g. cheaper, in different colors, or more convenient. But the product is protected by copyright, it cannot be distributed by competitors. (There is also little room for improvements exept for the price; having still one single owner of the artwork limits the freedom to make better prices.) Making a similar product to a piece of music, a book, or a movie, of course would be possible, but change nothing -- nobody would by this instead of the original one, since it would be considered just a different thing. There is only one Star Trek XXVI. movie -- who could compete and how could this reduce DVD prices?
http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
...and with those fancy Swiss watches, you can bet that they'll start EXACTLY on time.
Essentially, the record companies have a monopoly on each of their artists. If there were a working market - in theory - a price will be reached, that gives the greatest total benefit for both the consumer and the enterprises. In a monopoly situation, the price will produce the greatest benefit to the company holding the monopoly.
Even if they are luxury items CDs should be priced so that the total benefit is greatest.
And this means that record companies should be watched closely.
By the way, is anyone examining territorial lockouts for video games?
I have yet to test it, but they claim it will cope with RCE disks.
However, discs can still "disable" buttons on the remote. In addition to the obvious not being able to skip the logos, copyright notices, and occasional trailer - some discs will only let you switch sound tracks and subtitle tracks though the menus!
I also want to be able to use computer generated IR to control the player - but this sort of thing really hinders any attempt to say "go to the start of chapter 2, title 3".
Do any of you know of a company whose mod will disable these "features" as well?
Let's see the EU invistigate the artifically LOWER prices they pay for drugs, slowing development progress while taking advantage of the faster progress brought about by higher prices in the US.
Two-faced sacks of ****.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
...Then perhaps the movies that pick up on this format will make a killing from all the slashdotters invading the stores like they do servers ;-)
Just skip the thread dude.
"Take five minutes the next time you're in your local electronic store and you see someone looking at a DVD play to explain what exactly the regional id system is all about."
And watch the eyes glaze and excuses made.
t2 anyone? its not out in the uk/region2 till august. i got it in february from play247.com (who are well priced :)
we've been putting up with high prices for too long tbh.
<shop> right, $30 eh? change that $ to a £ and add 5!, excellent
I wonder how much money Sony and other DVD player manufactures are losing because their players are not multi regional. Most DVD players that are sold in Europe are multi regional players and is made in Korea or Taiwan and not Japan. How long will they hold out before these manufactures that plays by the rule start breaking it.
With the current state of the entertainment industry in the United States (suing anyone/anything that even appears to threaten their stranglehold on the masses) the only thing this is likely to produce is a 25% increase in US DVD prices to a level comparable to that in the EU. The MPAA and thier kind would never lower prices to achieve equity, so this would be the only path that would seem even remotely viable. And if the government gets involved, who knows what the outcome would be.
-----
Bow before my sig, for it is good.
DVD for movies is great, but the way the
entertainment companies are treating their
customers is sort of annoying. I'm a German
citizen, my wife is Italian and we both talk
English very well. If I go to buy a DVD in Germany
it often happens that the soundtrack is only
German. If we buy DVD in Italy the soundtrack
is usually Italian and sometimes also English.
The most annoying thing so far was "Terminator 2"
which has an English soundtrack, but with
italian subtitles that can't be turned off.
Do the entertainment firms think that the
customer is so stupid that he really needs
subtitles. If I use the original soundtrack,
then I do it for a reason of course and if I
would like to have subtitles in my native
language I would turn them off. But forcing
you to do it in a way you don't want to do
is really annoying. Customers are treated like
kids in the kindergarten.
Well, at least my problem with DVD is not the
price (that is pretty high of course) but the
availability of languages (even when all are
using the same region code).
And you will see a difference !
God Saves...
Or so they say.
Is it for his old days ?
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
You mean it's not out on DVD? That's pretty unbelievable, considering that it's a Japanese flick.
Oh well, you can always drop Y4725 (~$40) on the VHS version
Reboot macht Frei.
This is why I see CD-R based MP4s advertised as being DVD sourced in Russia. Are these licensed?
Bit stream copies of DVDs are also popular and can be detected by the much lower price. What gives the game away is that they still carry the original region encoding, but are limited by the availability of source material.
I also saw some very nice video-cassettes of Pearl Harbor on sale. Good packaging.
All of this, is IP theft, but since a trip to the movies in Russia costs more than a trip to the theatre, you can see why it happens.
Hollywood: "Yes".
EU: "In that case, we demand that the region system is abandoned."
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
Most of the companies that produce the telecines and anamorphic transfers and do the specials are wholly owned by the same companies that own the studios, hence almost all profits across the board stay within the family. It's the same thing that drives CD prices up, and it's all artificial.
Or, take the case of what's holding up the *Dogma:SE* disc for many months. Disney sold out the distribution rights because they're assholes who didn't want to distribute a controversial film like *Dogma*. Then, when it came time to publish the Special Edition DVD with all the extras and deleted scenes, Disney said, "Hrmm, you don't own those, so pay us more to use them." Thus, Disney gouges a bit more profit that ultimately comes from the consumer's wallet, and my money means more to me than a few more dollars means to Disney. Fuck that. It's all creative accounting designed to gouge the consumer.
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
The best way to get the price of DVDs down is to stop buying them!!!
The movie industry wants to make money and if you let them know with the loudest possible voice - which is not Slashdot, and it's not the court of law, it's $$$ - that this whole regional encoding thing and the whole CSS thing just suck donkey balls, well they'll listen and come up with a solution that works.
But honestly, we know that won't happen, because it's just not annoying enough. If $25 were too much to pay for a DVD, people wouldn't pay it. and if $15 were too much to pay for a CD, people wouldn't pay it. The honest truth is that it's exactly the right amount, it's just more than we want to pay. Think about it for a second, doesn't almost everything cost more than you want to pay? Shoes, cars, stereos, movie tickets, beer? That's the magic of economics, everything costs as much as you're willing to pay, which is always greater than what you want to pay!
My friends, Microsoft is a monopoly, the RIAA and the MPAA are just bunch of assholes - but not monopolists. So take my solution to heart - stop buying CDs and DVDs - and shucks, the price will come down faster than you can say "Radiohead rules".
The Swiss are the best defended, most fully armed citizenry ON THE PLANET... even old bad Mr. Hilter new that... sould be quite interesting if things ever get Medieval again... Oh... Region Codes bite... just another attempt by an industry ten to fifteen years behind technology to keep a tighter fist on the dollars as more and more slip through thier greedy grasp. Region Codes bads for Anime also... what's bad for Anime is bad for --- well, everyone.
"Content thyself to be obscurely good. When vice prevails, and impious men bear sway, the post of honor is a private sta
Your observations are accurate. This dvd-region coding business only hurts the consumer and lowers profits by making the products harder to purchase and use. I now reside in Japan and have brought my collection of DVDs with me. I can't find a DVD player here which is Region 1 compatible. Aside from codefree DVD (which has prices that make me weep) and Express.Com (no commentary necessary) I can't seem to find anyone who'll ship me a DVD player which will play my movies. If any of you know of a store which will ship a player internationally AND which won't charge me an arm and a leg for it, please send me an e-mail.
anata sekai o kakumei surush ga nai deshou? Anata no susumu michi wa yoi shite arimasu.
go to your local Pawn Shop and pick the movies up for a fraction of original cost... I just bought 2 CDs for $2.50 each saturday, and a DVD for $5.00
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Come on this is nonsens.
DVDs are MPEG encoded. If I play them on my PC I dont care if it is NTSC or PAL or whatever.
And with the language - have you ever compared a movies German translation with the original English language ?
Translations (especialy to German) suck so buy a original US DVD and learning English is worth the effort.
You were just kidding us with your post ?
"ich bin drin !"
for the eu would be to open up trade in
"modchips" for dvd players. That way the
consumers can pull out macrovision while
they're at it and the studios would really
be at a loss.
So they could just threaten to do that, :o)
really...