Slashdot Mirror
Fallout From Def Con: Ebook Hacker Arrested by FBI
Richard and many other people sent in news about Dmitry
Sklyarov, a programmer at Russian software company Elcomsoft, who was arrested after giving a talk at Def Con 9 in Las Vegas titled "eBook Security: Theory and Practice." Elcomsoft publishes a program to remove restrictions from encrypted PDF files, which has severely annoyed Adobe Corporation. Adobe was apparently responsible for the arrest, charging that Elcomsoft is violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act by publishing the software and giving the presentation at Def Con. (The presentation, by the way, is great - he compares the claimed features of ebook protection schemes with their actual features.) Also at Def Con 9: Hacking for Human Rights.
Any person, whether they're a foreigner or a U.S. Citizen, is protected by the First Amendment when giving presentations in Las Vegas.
Your kidding me? I don't remember reading in the 1st Ammendment that specifically "presentations in Las Vegas" was protected speech. Did Bugsy Seigel help draft the the 1st Ammendment?
Huh. You learn something new every day.
I guess this is why Linus wouldn't like to have his vacation in Las Vegas.
Tell me why anyone. ANYONE. deserves more time in jail for cracking software than for rape or second degree murder.
* DMCA
A lot of people that thought that it was legal to do any kind of program discover that it may not be. As they have childs to feed, they choose to avoid the kind of software that could annoy corporations.
Otoh, many people that respected law start to break it. I mean, I've spent hours learning how DVD zoning/encryption/VOB format/mpeg2 playing works (down to the code). Just because it is my way to fight them.
So people accused often roll over and settle because these regular folk can't afford to spend money on lawyers, fly to courts all over the nation/world, quit their jobs to work full time on their defense, lose their families by never being able to be home, etc. Not to mention chunks of their life lost forever. And legal fees are usually NOT recoverable even if they "win".
But the lawsuits are no sweat to the company suing. They have a regular allocated budget and staff to handle this stuff. No harm to them. None of their staff has to give up part of their life and income to sue you. THey're actually PAID to do that. And when the poor schmuck does "plea bargain", the company gets to build up case law in their favor to be used against the next victim targeted by the megacorps.
The ones sued have now contributed to the evil by making it stronger. Right? Who can afford to be "right" anymore? This is the US justice system we're talking about here.
God Bless America.
When corporations can purchase laws, corporations are the government. That's the connundrum you fail to address.
One problem though. This company is not under US Laws.. so why would the DMCA even matter? The company is located in Moscow, Russia.
Do you have a bug in my boss's office?
No, but the FBI does.
I hope your friends and family doesn't read slashdot. I think you just sounded like an idiot.
Umm...Bush wasn't even in Federal Office when we were given the DCMA. On October 28,1998, President Clinton signed into law the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 (DCMA).
Another win for the Democrats apparently.
s/persue/pursue/g /want: the /g
s/occuring/occurring/g
s/persuit/pursuit/g
s/imprisioned/imprisoned/g
s/want: The
When Adobe acts like this, it makes me glad that I've never paid for any of their programs.
It would be rather ironic if a Russian citizen would end up fighting an American law restricting his free speech.
Thank you, I was pretty sure this was the case, but I couldn't find any documentation of anyone who was using them in this capacity.
----
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Open mind, insert foot.
Yes, the DMCA criminalizes certain kinds of copyright violations; it also criminalizes some acts, like reverse engineering protection schemes, that were never even grounds for civil action before. This is in addition to any civil lawsuit the offended party may bring against you.
Yes this moves us ever closer to a corporate police state. Some companies, Wackenhut for example, are even positioning themselves to have their own police forces (they already run several prisons).
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Open mind, insert foot.
Isn't that exactly what almost happened a while back with the HackSDMI (or whatever it was) contest? They claim it's secure, someone says "no it's not!" and tries to publish a paper proving it's not, and gets the slapdown from lawyers?
Man, sometimes I want to go live in a cave somewhere....
Yes, he was arrested for both the software and the presentation according to the article.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
We can make this a self-fufilling prophecy...
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
I have extracted some of the discussion here and turned it into a post on the Adobe stock board at Yahoo. (Ticker code ADBE)
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
What felony? The disemination and discussion of true facts?
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Hint: Here in Arizona, an outfit called "The Baptist Foundation" scammed *MILLIONS* of dollars from unwitting retirees across the country who thought they were supporting a religious-related investment fund, people who are now broke and living on Social Security. Guess what: Not *ONE* of the criminals responsible is currently serving time.
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Well, click here anyhow.
Let's see, the USA tortures prisoners, executes probably innocent prisoners and prisoners who are mentally retarded or who were children at the time of the crime, police brutality is rampant especially against racial minorities, children are often thrown into jail cells with brutal hardened criminals, children held in isolation for months at a time, widespread rape of female prisoners by male prison guards, regularly denies foreign prisoners the right to contact their consulate for legal representation, ...
Of course many other countries are much worse. While we do beat our protesters and frame them for murder, there are no widespread "Disappearances" of critics of the government. Indeed, a brief search of the Internet will find you hundreds of thousands of people criticising the government. In many countries, criticisms such as these that we are making here would be sufficient to have you "disappeared".
-E
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
I have had entirely enough of this new adversarial stance of theirs.
Let me just delete /opt/Acrobat4... Their UNIX software sucks anyway. The rest of it isn't much better.
Any software company that enforces or relies upon the DMCA should go on our blacklist!
1) Speed limits in the US are about the same as speed limits in Europe, other then the German autobahns. However we measure in miles, not Kilometers, so 55 is about the same as 100, which is a typical speed for back roads. Major roads are faster.
2) There are arugements both ways, but in most of europe the same laws exist, they are just less enforced.
3) Accually this is a local issue. (the feds get overinvoved, but since the 18th ammendment was repealed the feds have no power to force it. (Where Jack Danials in brewed it is illegal drink drink alcohol at any age)
4) State issue. I don't want others on the road with alcohol around though. Though I agree goverment should get out.
If he isn't an American citizen, then the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to him.
I am writing to express my disappointment that Adobe would have a person arrested for pointing out flaws in one of it's products. I refer, of course, to the case of Dmitry Sklyarov, who gave a lecture on eBook security at the recent DefCon security convention.
As a customer who cut my chops on Illustrator 1.1, it saddens me to think that Adobe now cares so little about the quality of it's heretofore-excellent products that it seeks to harrass and intimidate those who point out their weaknesses. Some will call it 'hacking' since it involved disabling a security routine, but I see it for what it is - pointing out a flaw in a product. I am thankful to him that he exposed a weakness, thus protecting me from it.
Any company that would have someone arrested for protecting me can no longer enjoy my business.
Sincerely,
Don Negro
Don Negro
Perl 6 will give you the big knob. -- Larry Wall
Unfortunately, unless you were really paying attention, the DMCA passed without much incident or fanfare over here. If there had been more discussion about it, I'm sure it would have never passed into law.
Some of the "security" algorithms this white-hat whistleblower has exposed are incredibly poor. Here are some samples:
If I was a shareholder in any of these companies I would be demanding an investigation. This isn't just shoddy, it's an outright scam! None of these companies should be getting away with this. The customer is being ripped off, yet these shyster companies have the NERVE to use the law against the whistleblowers.
I'm disgusted.
It's only through egregious affronts to civil rights such as poor Dimitry's case that the press will ever begin to paint the DMCA for what it is.
Go on, Adobe. Ruin this man's life. We need a martyr. We dare you.
--
I noticed
--
I noticed
It's getting about time to leave everywhere
1) Needing a martyr is short shrift to the poor bastard in the crosshairs.
2) He's going to be painted as a "hacker" having been caught at DefCon- they're not going to paint this as a civil rights violation that it is, it's "a criminal being put to justice under the DMCA". It's what transpired with 2600- do you REALLY think this poor SOB is going to get a fair trial under those conditions?
While you're at it, tell everyone you know about this- including Congresspeople. Explain to them what is going on and why it's such a bad thing.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I called the phone number (408 536 6000) and asked for Public Relations. I got someone's voicemail, and left a somewhat long message about how concerned I was.
The person answering on the main line said I was the third person who called, and he actually put me on hold to find out who in Corporate was actually supposed to get these calls. So keep calling!
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
He was arrested in a foreign country for doing something in his own country which is perfectly legal there. Excuse ME? If that happened to an American citizen in another country there would be a sodding international incident. HELLO? Earth calling FBI? Other sovereign nations, get the concept here? Hairy arse burgers, not only are they passing laws which blatantly violate their own constitution but they're now trying to apply them to other countries' citizens. Furrfu.
-- Arm yourself when the Frog God smiles.
It seems the Elcomsoft page has been /., if it's in Russia it does not help...= cache:http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eelcomsoft%2Ecom%2Fapdfpr% 2Ehtml page, you can download the Advanced PDF Password Recovery here and here
Thanks to google, here's a mirror of the http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q
--
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
The warrant names this guy as the source for the complaint (see another post below this heading for links to the court docs).
CNN says the guy is being transferred to Santa Clara County, so Adobe can have its way with him.
---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
American tourists have been arrested in Germany for distributing Nazi propoganda over the internet. In the case I'm thinking of, they actually tried to extradite him first, but the US government refused (but didn't notify him.) I don't remember reading about any governmental objections; appearing to support a Nazi is bad political fodder.
Well, you own the copy of the code you have (similar to owning a book you buy), but not the actual code (i.e. the stuff covered by copyright). There are two ownerships here: the information (covered by copyright) and the actual representation (what you're holding to view the information).
So you do own the copy, but not the information. (and GPL does expand your rights).
GV does not work as well as Acrobat to view PDF files. GV does not support hyperlinks or bookmarks, both of which are nearly essential to navigate long documents. It also has a bad type1 renderer.
xpdf supports hyperlinks, but doesn't yet appear to support bookmarks.
People like this shouldn't be arrested, they should be applauded. For example, without this guy's work Adobe would never be forced to do anything about their (obviously) shoddy protection on PDF files.
--
Join my fight against Subway's new cut!
http://spine.cx/subway/
> I guess this is why Microsoft doesn't just pick up and move 30 miles north.
30 miles? To Marysville, Washington? Why the hell are they going to do that?
Oh, by some chance were you refering to a move to Canada? Around 200 miles would get them close to Vancouver, BC.
Geography: It's not just the law, it's a good idea.
Your courageous and selfless spelling corrections have made me a better person.
criminal my ass... he hurt Adobe's pride and caught them lying.(advertised features). Nothing has been stolen. They should have gotten off their complacent asses and fixed it.
-- Ted tsikora@powerusersbbs.com
Be careful though--many independent labels are really owned by major RIAA member corps. It can take a lot of digging to find out who these independents are really associated with, too.
The real problem was that those responsible for passing the DMCA have *no understanding* of the Copyright and Patent clause of the Constitution! Quite frankly, hardly anyone else has any idea what the Constitution says either. Corporations are merely taking advantage of an opportunity. The enemy is the ignorance of the citizenry (including those elected from our ranks).
Ah, you must have missed it. National sovereignty died when a bunch of self appointed moralists decided that we needed to "teach the world to sing in perfect harmony." People like Harry Truman.
There were indeed lots of FBI, DoD, NSA (Though I guess they fall under DoD), etc, etc at DefCon. We all knew they were there, too... What I have trouble with is the fact that they can arrest a guy for making a presentation. Kudos to Priest and the rest of the DefCon staff for a good job nonetheless. And Optyx for that kickass presentation on KIS. Anyone else want to move to Japan?
- People may cease to require its product/service
- A superior technology emerges
- (Patents not withstanding) Someone else may produce a better or cheaper version
So a corporation should always be prepared for any investments to either be unsucessful from the start or for revenue from an investment to decrease or cease.Does the DCMA not only prohibit circumvention without the copyright owner's (presumably the owner of the copyright on the "protected" material) permission? In which case, why not simply demonstrate the technique on an encrypted PDF of material to which he owns the copyright?
You can find your congresscritter at Congress.Org and inserting your zip code into the proper fields. When you do this, be sure to include your name, address and zip code in the letter.
Alternatively, you could send the following (NB, I haven't checked for spelling mistakes):
Dear (Senator/Representative) N.
... activity which would otherwise be protected under the First Amendment and the traditions of academic freedom. It is apparent that the DMCA must be changed or perhaps repealed.
I am writing today to express my displeasure concerning the way the FBI has conducted itself in regards to Dmitry Sklyarov and Elcomsoft.
Mr. Sklyarov gave a talk at a computer security conference on the security weaknesses of Adobe's eBook product, which were apparently easily discovered and exploited. Instead of thanking Mr. Sklyarov for his work, Adobe complained to the FBI and Mr. Sklyarov was detained for violating the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.
I believe that copyright holders must have methods to secure their works. But as is obvious thanks to Elcomsoft's work, the protection afforded by Adobe's eBook products is easily overcome. There is no doubt that THOUSANDS of people have been taking advantage of this, silently, and thus ripping off legitimate copyright holders. Elcomsoft has only vocalized what was already occuring.
This is not the first time that the Digital Millenium Copyright Act has been abused like this, and it won't be the last. In its short life we have seen many security consultants and even college and university professors threatened with prosecution under DMCA for exposing weaknesses in computer security
I look foreward to your position on this issue.
Sincerely, (name, address including zip)
Finding God in a Dog
Vote with your wallet. Refuse to buy from companies that abuse their power and position. Spread the word, and let the company know why you are boycotting them and their products. A quick phone call to some veep in financing might get results.
"Hi, Mr Megabux of BastardCorp, I'm calling to let you know that neither I nor 20 of my close acquaintances will buy your overpriced, underpowered SupaThing until you drop the suit/ charges against Mr Innocent. I had planned on spending $10000 with you this year which will now go to your competitor. Thank you."
Why is it that many people who claim to support standards have such atrocious spelling and grammar?
Hmm.. didn't realise this case was about the RIAA but still..
As opposed to OPEC (actually doesn't the US produce some oil? also the UK had some rigs last time I was there) RIAA does have competition -- you can support your local, unsigned, indie bands.
Artists should have multiple distributors, but sadly Sony, EMI et al have paid for exclusive rights to "represent" their artists.
Don't like it? Don't buy CDs from major artists. Don't go to concerts. Especially don't buy non-music merchandising (free advertising for bands == free advertising for RIAA whores).
Where's Courtney Love when you need her?
People bitch and whine about 'this corporation/ organisation does X' and then happily hand over their $20. Perhaps when Joe Bag'O'Donuts is made aware of the travesty that the US has become things will change.
But I doubt it.
Why is it that many people who claim to support standards have such atrocious spelling and grammar?
His presentation had nothing to do with the arrest (technically.) He was arrested for writing software that violates the DMCA.
IIRC, there is a clause in the DMCA that protects encryption research specifically. As the presentation was an informational survey of eBook protection claims vs. actual abilities, I don't see how that would be something they could arrest him for.
Now the publication of a tool to circumvent the security of PDF documents, that's another story. Does anywone know which he was arrested for?
Yours truly,
Mr. X
...stupid stupid FBI...
Adobe may be looking out for the shareholders with its zealous attention to the DMCA, but when enlightened customers stop buying software upgrades in protest, Adobe may very well have to rethink its position on this. I haven't upgraded Illustrator since version 7, and because of crap like this, I'm in no hurry to do so.
ARE YOU LISTENING ADOBE????
This is actually a good thing - it pits companies who relied on Adobe's assertions of a secure product, and with the money to pay for it, against Adobe itself. If I were involved with such a company, and I could prove not only that I was harmed by Adobe's misrepresentation, but that the DMCA makes it illegal for this kind of information to be disseminated, I'd think the law itself would be eventually be deemed unconstitutional.
In this case, he was in the country when Adobe decided to press charges. That actually has a long history in this country. There is a law (I wish I could remember the name of it) which states that if a crime is committed, and the criminal and the victim step into an area under US jurisdiction, we can arrest the criminal and run them through our court system. This has been on the books for just about the entire time the US has been a country. It fell into dissuse about 150 years ago, and only got dredged up in the 80's when a man who was tortured in a foriegn country immigrated to the US. His torturer visited the US, was arrested and tried. I don't remember the outcome of this trial.
I'm really kicking myself for not having my sources (nor the time to go look it up), but it's there. I actually found out about this while helping Amnesty International gather signatures for an Internation Right to Know act (which would require companies to report about their labor and environmental practices abroad, like they have to do in the US). Basically, with the reporting could potentially come prosecution of companies breaking US law abroad. So, this law can be a Good Thing.
What to do about the DMCA is another thing entirely. Personally, I'm thinking it might be high time to abuse the law in the opposite direction. Say create a PDF, post it with a licence and sue Adobe for creating a program which breaks your copy protection (PDF being the copy protection). Now, I'd want to go in on this with a better understanding of the DMCA (to properly abuse it) and a couple friendly lawyers (there are cool lawyers out there, I've met a few). Just something inspired by another thread under this article.
Jeff
YMCA? :)
Nobody was responsible for the DMAC, it's the DMCA.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
You can generate PDFs with the GIMP? And they're more secure than the Adobe version?
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
It's encrypted the MS "PowerPoinT" algorithm, and the company only provide a decoding app for Windows. Maybe somebody should write a DePPT app for Linux so we too can get at this important information. If nobody takes that step, we'll be doomed to a life without PPT files!
(oh the horror!)
± 29 dB
you can now get arrested for what would otherwise be a civil action
Copyright violations can also be a criminal violation.
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Haven't read a software licence recently, have you? :)
In my experience, there's a sentence or paragraph along those lines in most licences these days. One thing I installed a while back (I forget what exactly) even laid claim to the manuals in the licence.
I don't think that sort of thing would stand up in court if it ever went that far, but it's a demonstration of how far some people are trying to push this sort of "you've only bought the right to use it, and you're lucky we gave you that much" thing.
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
The company he works for makes software that breaks the copy protection on Adobe's ebook software.
So what?
In most country's it isn't possible to patent encryption algorithms and software.
So, this Russian company isn't doing anything wrong.
I think that this guy is back home within two weeks.
But only where laws like the DMCA exist would publishing a paper on how to circumvent a copyright method be a violation in itself. That's more the point -- without the DMCA, only the actual infringing uses of this information would be illegal, not the published information itself.
With other words : due to the DMCA there is no freedom of speech.
I'm glad that I don't life in the US but in a democratic European country...
Wasn't Wackenhut basically a front organization for the CIA back in the 60's and 70's? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, or they were just 'contractors' or 'consultants' to the CIA or something like that...
At several Federal Court decisions (see Novell v. NTC) has held that the sale of media containing software is the sale of a copy under the UCC to which the First Sale doctrine of Copyright Law applies. Quoting that decision:
So, yes, Virginia, you do buy a copy of a copyrighted work when you buy software. Any language to the contrary in the license agreement is unenforcable as a matter of law. (Except perhaps in UCITA states.)
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
I'd think maybe he should've stayed the fuck out of Iran...
"...they may harpoon us, but they ain't gonna pick us up on no radar screen!"
Buy some Adobe stock. When is their next AGM? Does anyone know how much stock you have to hold before you can make yourself heard as a stockholder in one of their meetings? "Mr CEO, are we defrauding our customers? Could this result in liability for the Company?" If the BS in this "product" is as described in other postings, maybe some of Adobe's board members should be informed about this in a manner that doesn't leave room for plausible deniability (registered letter?)
Dear: Adobe
Please become an Acrobat and stick your PDF up your own ass using some good Live Motion. Then see how fast you can Type on Call for you Illustrator. Then with it in you ass please go to the local Photoshop and laydown on the Page Maker untill you Indesign. At this point you will need Type Management and have no Postscript to bail yourself out.
Reality has a liberal bias
"Please note that references to buying or purchasing mean the buying or purchasing of software licenses. Adobe licenses its software products. It does not sell ownership of these products."
And you thought some rights remained? Nope. Crush these guys.
Instead of being arrested, he should be given a cut of the money the goverment fines adobe and its security partners for. The REAL criminals in cases like this where the money grubbing BS is exposed are often the companies themselves.
And I can count the number of times the DMCA has been used against real criminals on the palm of my hand. Never.
Luckly, slashdot's got a bunch of folks who actually make tech decisions. Let's try and wipe out these security plugins, and make it crystal clear to Adobe that they should be spending more time improving their products rather than going after the guy who blew the whistle on their BS. Call them today, again in a week, again in a month.
Wasn't there a time when crimes needed to be committed within the sovereign territory of the country involved before someone got arrested (Terrorism, murder, et al aside). Since this person didn't crack PDFs within the USA, nor is the software sold here directly by that person (it needs to be imported), what gives the US Govenment the right to arrest him (other then it can).
There was a time when the West condemned the Communists governments for heavy-handed treatment of those who committed "economic crimes against the state", holding up the free market model as an example (including its civil courts as a resolution mechanism).
Who needs to wait for a world government -- its already here -- just open a corporation, make the right size contributions to your favourite party and you too will be "given" the right to be heard.
This really makes me mad! Argh... Adobe, you've just made a whole lot of new enemies.
Burn.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
Waste time telling Adobe what they already know?! Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Of course Adobe know their product isn't secure, it's just that they don't want ANYONE ELSE to know or tell the public about it. That is bad publicity, and that in turn is bad for the stock.
What these companies want is a nice little world where they can say whatever they want, even out right lie about their products, all the while having laws making sure no-one can come forward and expose them for the liars they are, and spread the truth about the product.
They're halfway there. Fuck!
Belief is the currency of delusion.
That's exactly it. I see consumer protection/rights as the reason why reverse-engineering should not only be allowed, it should be actively encouraged!
Spreading rev-eng techniques to the masses is The Right Thing to do.
eBook, meet IDA and SoftIce. Adobe, meet whack-a-mole.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
honestly, I'm too lazy/inarticulate to come up with a well formed letter. If someone wants to post a form letter though, I bet you'll get a lot more e-mails sent from people like myself.
BilldaCat
I may be incredibly lazy, but I'm still a consumer and potential customer.
BilldaCat
A cop sitting with his lights off is not in any way 'entraping' you in to speeding. Speeding is illegal regardless of whether you think a cop will see you or not.
A cop challenging you to a race in an unmarked car.. that *might* be grounds for entrapment. Then again, they may argue you would have done it anyway.
Entrapment is when, like, some undercover agent tries to get you to come rob a bank with him, you agree, the he arrests you for bank robbery.
No. Entrapment is when an officer of the law coerces you into doing something you would not otherwise have done, and then arrests you for it.
Constitutional issues aside, I'd say Dmitri is going to become a very rich man. . .
It is when the lock used is weaker than some sort of crappy toy lock you'd see on some kid's toy that breaks easily with the prying and the banging and the twisting and stuff like that only with less effort than that sounded like.
they can detain you without any real reason,but they can only do it for so long.
Tell that to Kevin Mitnick.
First they burn books, then they burn people.
You should summarize what 1 and 2 say otherwise the links won't be visited, hell I havn't even visited them yet, but looking at your letter hurts my sanity :)
I don't normally respond to such obvious flame attempts, but I have to ask one question. Assuming you were being honest about your feelings in the previous post.
1. Why do you believe that Adobe's rights have been violated?
2. What do you believe the average consumers rights concerning use of a companies IP is?
3a. Where is the line between you as a consumers rights, and Adobe and a companies rights?
3b. Which are more important?
Ok, that was 4 questions sorry, got carried away and forgot to preview :) Please answer all questions.
2. What do you believe the average consumers rights concerning use of a companies IP is?
What is granted as the legally binding terms of sale/license. That one was easy.
Yes, but don't you believe that there is a certain inalienable right to the freedom of speach to be able to talk about any problems you find in a product. Now I do believe that you can give up such a right through NDAs and whatnot, but firstly I don't believe that NDAs can be on shrinkwrap license agreements, and especially in more recent cases where there was no NDA but the law of the land. In effect the government is mandating that we have an automatic NDA about any encypted product we may buy.
the FBI isn't interested in tracking down people who cause less than $X in damage.
-c
I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain.
I just tried it and the first one I tried wouldn't read, but using /usr/bin/xpdf instead worked great. One less Adobe user here.
The police can hold you for up to 48 hours without charging you with anything. Of course, if no one ever broke any laws, the whole thing point would be moot...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Because incredibly lazy people are the ones corporations really care about. I'm sure if I were bombarded with thousands of identical messages, I would change my ways...
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
It's not the only time. Double jeopardy (sp) protection doesn't really exist. There is this BS, cockamamie thing wherein you can get hit twice: once civilly, and once criminally.
Now, I don't have too much of a problem with that when there are two different aggrieved parties. Or when something clearly causes both a civil tort and breaks a rational, criminal law (this latter to differentiate from the DMCA).
What is new and dangerous is precisely what you have pointed out: corporate enforcement. In this instance, the Adobe Corp. was the only company to potentially suffer a loss. Criminal law is supposed to protect society. The DMCA does not achieve this effect. It protects (in this instance) one specific member of society. The case will likely be tried very similarly as one that Adobe would bring themselves, with only two differences: a change in evidentiary standard (which is so wildly open to speculation on the part of judges and juries as to be inconsequential, and therefore a totally moot difference) and the possibility of jail-time. Ooh. There's the biggie.
Copy a CD, go to jail (after all, you've kept Britney from getting another boob job).
Now, it's time for everyone who said "maybe we were too hard on Adobe for the Killustrator thing" to change your mind again. Adobe sucks. They always have. They always will.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Because we know how it will most likely turn out. DMCA is just a bad law, the judge will side with Adobe and this guy will get jacked up in prison.
Havoc Penington, the bane of my Linux desktop.
Sen. Hon. Richard K R Alston
Australian Federal Minister for Communications, Information Technology & the Arts
I don't believe you're the real Senator Alston... I'm not sure that Tricky Dicky even knows what a computer looks like!
deus does not exist but if he does
Why can the USA can arrest a russian citizen for breaking an american law IN RUSSIA?
If it is argued that the crime was commited on the Internet, and thus _everywhere_, what do I have to do to make sure my work is legit? Block access to my servers for ALL countries where the action is illegal?
Does this mean that I after publishing something on the Internet I may get arrested the next time I go to [insert name of country here] because the published material was illegal in that country?
What would the US think if an american reporter published information regarded as blasphemy in Iran, got arrested there while visiting the country?
How are they evil? (I'm not bashing you; I don't know much about them, and I'm seriously curious about your opinion.)
Without having the time to look up any information about them, I fail to see how providing security as well as running prisons makes them evil.
Please feel free to modify and send as you see fit.
7 %2 F130226&cid=&pid=0
& op =Change
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:18:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: (Removed)
To: jcristof@adobe.com, dstyerwa@adobe.com, lvacante@adobe.com,
ablatchf@adobe.com, skrueger@adobe.com, gbabbit@adobe.com, wsaso@adobe.com,
jwarnock@adobe.com, cgeschke@adobe.com, bchizen@adobe.com,
snarayen@adobe.com, mdemo@adobe.com, cpouliot@adobe.com,
jstephens@adobe.com, mdyrdahl@adobe.com
To whom it may concern,
I (and doubtlessly many others) am writing to express my disappointment
with the recent actions of Adobe Corporation, specifically those having to
do with FBI's arrest of Russian citizen Dmitry Sklyarov. Dmitry presented
an academic paper at computer security professionals' conference (DEFCON),
and was subsequently detained for reported violation of Digital Millenium
Copyright Act. The subject of his paper was inferior security in Adobe
Reader application.
I've used Adobe products for a long time, in my career as web designer,
freelance consultant and programmer. I alone am responcible for over
$100,000 in sales of Adobe products, having recommended the purchases to
several educational and business organizations, and subsequently
supervising deployment of said applications. You might say I was a loyal
customer. Not only do I like your products, I also like your company. I've
spent many a summer night watching outdoor movies at Adobe's parking lot
theatre in Fremont (Seattle). I've corresponded with several engineers and
support personell within your organization, and I always found my
experiences agreeable. It'd be a shame for me to abandon the use and
recommendation of your products. However, if Adobe's actions continue in
the pattern demosntrated over the last few days, my principles will leave
me no choice, but to take my business elsewhere.
Please, understand two important things. First of all, as an experienced
software engineer, I can tell you that the copyright protection mechanisms
employed by the Reader application are *inferior*. Not only are they
horribly "broken", the entire approach the Reader team took is just plain
bad, and cannot be fixed. I can tell you, that based on what I've read in
Mr. Sklyarov's paper, if my goal were to reverse-engineer Reader's
security measures, I could have done it in a matter of days. By
suppressing Mr. Sklyarov's voice you are doing a disservice to yourself,
your customers and your shareholders. Copyright protection is important,
and you want to employ the best tools in your products! Your Reader team
made several exceedingly bad decisions, but it is a matter that should be
fixed internally, not by killing the messenger!
Secondly, Mr. Sklyarov was arrested under the provsion of DCMA (Digital
Copyright Millenium Act). I can express my opinions on DMCA at great
lengths, but I feel that my opinions are not of real value to your legal
counsel. However, I can tell you with utmost certainty, that an immense
number of computer users worldwide feel that DMCA is bad law. Many
organisations (such as Free Software Foundation and American Civil Liberty
Union) have expressed willingness to sponsor lawyer fees to have the law
overturned on the grounds of unconstitutionality. It may seem like a good
thing for Adobe now, but by using this law to persecute Mr. Sklyarov, you
are alienating millions of users! Please don't make this mistake.
Allow me to demonstrate an example of discussion surrounding this case:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01%2F07%2F1
&startat=&threshold=1&mode=nested&commentsort=3
(join the two lines of text above together). This is an example of
alienation that is happening right now in a community that is highly
Adobe contacted FBI, which performed the arrest.
The complaint can be found here and the US DOJ press release about the case is here
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
Clinton was responsible for DMAC.
No, Bush smuggled the drugs for him. He got the drugs from some friends he met through George and George's CIA buddies.
itachi
If you want to know why women (and men, too) raising kids don't counts as workers, merely look at the kids that they raise.
itachi, feeling bitter about humans in general anyway.
Actually you can be deained upto 72 hours wihtout being charged, its in the US Constitution.
this space for rent
Technically they are supposed to wait until someone commits a crime before arresting you. If the presentation was a violation of the DMCA, then they couldn't arrest him UNTIL HE MADE THE PRESENTATION.
Until that point, it wasn't a crime.
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
it was the FBI and the article says that he was detained, it makes no mention of an actual 'arrest'.. there's a big difference, they can detain you without any real reason, but they can only do it for so long.
jeebus cripes...
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
last i checked they were a software company, not a government agency.
could we please clarify what government agency actually made the arrest and on what basis?
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
Last time I threw up a quick mirror in response to a Slashdot story I ended up as a "J.Doe" on the DVDCCA case in California.
DAMN YOU! I wanted to be a J. Doe, and they never even bothered with me!
Maybe I can get Adobe on my ass now... here's my mirror page, and direct links to the presentation and program if you don't feel like reading my plebe-directed rant.
*paints a bullseye on self*
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Wait a minute, they waited until he made the presentation before arresting him? Isn't that entrapment? Do they think no one else will be able to figure this out?
Apparently, it's better to use lawyers than engineers when creating "secure" data formats...
You've linked to teh Amnesty USA website. Amnesty groups never discuss their host country by policy. This is aimed at preventing reprisals. If the USA group is complianing about French abuses, the USA government has little incentive to react, and the French government little ability.
2) What are the Bill of Rights and Consitution for? Toilet paper lately. 4th amendment has been gone for years - "war on Drugs" exception. 10th is ignored, 2nd is under attacik... and just TRY to use the 5th... see how far that gets you...
... hi bingo
It appears to be in an impenetrable obfuscated format called ".ppt".
They're almost a private army. They're contracted for security at various military/secret stuff installations.
But mostly they're well-known for being a part of the prison-industrial complex.
http://www.peacebus.com/junee/junee.html
Google will turn up many more...
-grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Great googly moogly, I've done that!
It was some damned government form that I wanted to add forms capability to (we were using a typewriter), but was locked.
That, and once I had to resize an EPS file because CorelDRAW! wouldn't export an illustration as small as we needed.
PostScript rocks. Try doing that with PDF, I dare ya...
-grendel drago.
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Yes, yes, yes, but
it works by limiting the power of the government.
Is this really a hard concept? I know your history teacher told you otherwise, but he was wrong and you would have seen so if you'd thought about it for a minute.
-grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
The Bill Of Rights doesn't apply to anyone... unless they're acting as an agent of the government.
"Congress shall make no law etc etc..." -- congress can't abridge Dmitri's rights any more than they can yours.
The Bill Of Rights doesn't apply to the people; it applies to the government. Didn't anyone here take Civics?
Ideally, anyway.
-grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
I'm not quite sure what to think about this.
http://www.wackenhutstore.com/sweatshirt.html
On the one hand, it's sending money to an **egregiously** evil corp. On the other hand, it's a shirt that says `Wackenhut' on it.
-grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Actually, snail mail will be more likely to be read...
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/contact.html
San Jose Corporate Headquarters
Adobe Systems Incorporated
345 Park Avenue
San Jose, California 95110-2704
USA
-grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
In the spirit of Open Source, here's another version of this letter:
l #T rustedClientSoftware
Dear Sir/Madam:
It was unacceptable of you to arrest Dmitry Sklyarov and attack Elcomsoft. Copy prevention software:
1. Is doomed to fail:
http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-0005.htm
2. Hurts consumers:
http://www.toad.com/gnu/whatswrong.html
I'll be telling everyone I know to avoid your products until you free Skylarov and issue a full apology.
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
I, um, did. "Is doomed to fail" is a summary of Schneier's article. Likewise "hurts consumers", although I suggest changing it to "hurts ordinary citizens".
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
Posting information is legal. Posting it with the stated intent to damage a companies stock price can be considered illegal manipulation. It can certainly get the SEC to take a look at your portfolio. And God help you if you've been selling short. I doubt he is, but what if a friend or relative of his is?
Best Slashdot Co
That the Securities and Exchange Commission doesn't read slashdot. I think you just committed a felony.
Best Slashdot Co
From http://www.planetebook.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid= 157
"I should say that it will not work," Katalov explained on comp.text.pdf. "We'll just move our site to another ISP, in another country (where there is no Digitial Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA)). And/or make our software available for free, under the GNU license."
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Female Prison Rape in NY
1) Boo! Adobe is threatening Killustrator. What a bunch of arses.
2) Yay! Adobe isn't gonna sue Killustrator, they just want a name change. What a great bunch of guys.
3) Hiss! Adobe had some guy arrested. What a bunch of arses.
All this in the span of ~1 week.
If your tactic were successful, it would seem to be more evidence for why DMCA is needed... that a lone hacker (albeit in an educational and consumer protection minded way) would be able to damage a large corporation and nullify the investments they made in new technology.
--
positioning, my ass...
I don't know about arrests, but under the DMCA, companies can seize property from people they feel have violated their IP. That is the companies themself can perform the raid, not the government.
4 ,0 0.html
Pretty creepy!
Here is the press release about the first such case:
http://www.directv.com/press/pressdel/0,1112,41
Although this probably wouldn't have happened except at Adobe's urging, please don't forget that this criminal action (the arrest of the Russian fellow) was enabled by LAWS. You need to contact your senator to try to get this evil waste of legislation repealed.
[For my money, you should be subject to arrest for giving your conference such an overly-dramatic title. Hacking for human rights, my arse.]
Given what happened, I'd say it was a pretty apt title.
Who is "Microsoft Data Access Internet Publishing Provider Protocol Discovery" (Browser ID) and why does it insist on doing FrontPage checks on my server?
Requests for:
web.fibrespeed.net/_vti_bin/shtml.exe/_vti_rpc
in response to linking from my previous post from 24.77.4.21.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
(laughs ... and doesn't give himself +1 bonus for it)
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
I have a copy mirrored here (in Canada).
cf. FibreSpeed
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
But only where laws like the DMCA exist would publishing a paper on how to circumvent a copyright method be a violation in itself. That's more the point -- without the DMCA, only the actual infringing uses of this information would be illegal, not the published information itself.
For example: knowing how to make a cable TV descrambler was never illegal -- using one to get free cable was.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
from http://www.planetebook.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid= 165
The reason for the arrest has been cited as being the Advanced eBook Processor and his speech at DefCon 9.
----
---- I made the Kessel Run in under 11 parsecs.
Wrong article buddy. You might want to hop on over to the article about Kontour/Killustrator/KWhatever.
Hacking for human rights is not the name of the conference, Defcon is the name of the coference, "hacking for human rights" was the name of a talk given at defcon.
-- free as in swatantryam - not soujanyam.
I am not sure that this is the best course of action. Sure, this sucks for the guy in jail, but let's examine what happens if this is pursued as far as it can be my Adobe.
I think this makes the perfect test case for the DMCA. If this thing ever makes it to a court I believe that the court would have no choice but to strike down the law as a violation of first amendment rights... This guy was giving an academic talk. No court anywhere in the (western) world will allow academic freedom to be trampled in this way.
I think a legal defense fund should be set up and this incident should be used to mount a legal challange to the DMCA. It's even better than the DeCSS papers, because the guy was arrested, not just threatened.
Daniel Tarbuck
Photoshop = Pr0noshop
-------------------------
-------------------------
"After Careful Consideration, Bush Recommends Oil Drilling" - The Onion
What the DMCA needs are concrete examples like this that academic research will be stifled and critics silenced by this crappy law. DeCSS, the SDMI watermark controversy and this presentation at DefCon show that criminals aren't being punished, research and development folks are. The three most prominent enforcements of DMCA haven't yielded a single pirated copy of anyone's IP. This will be a powerful point to make before a congressional subcommittee.
If the industry had been smart, they would have waited until they found 1000 pirated copies of a movie or piece of software. Then they could have self-righteously claimed justification for the DMCA. Now, they're just shooting themselves in the foot.
How ironic. You misspelled "intelligence".
Attention everyone writing letters: Please spell-check the letters you copy/paste from Slashdot. Almost every one of them has spelling errors.
--
Lord Nimon
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
assholes!!
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
and give us an opinion as to whether it is sufficently detailed to break the DCMA?
It looked quite generic to me... "you can break this particular product with brute force in a day", for example, or "key is included as a plain text in the document" (!) or "uses same key in each document"
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Dmitry is not being detained for explaining. He is being detained for releasing a polished product for which the sole purpose is to unprotect protected documents.
While that may be nearly as scary, the persecution of Dmitry should not have been such a big suprise.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
We're a funny lot here in the Corporate Republic Of America(TM). You see, if it isn't in a sitcom, day time talk show, teeny bopper song lyrics or doesn't have the logo from a Fortune 500 company on it, then it only exists as a general idea rather than an established fact. So you see, since the DMCA was not signed into effect on television and does not contain any logos, it is possible for both Clinton AND Bush to have signed it. Of course, if this ambiguity threatens to cost a corporation any sum of money, an immediate ruling will take place to determine who did, in fact, sign the DMCA into law. It would probably end up being Bush anyhow, since it appears that Clinton has never actually done anything that he has, well, done, to hear him tell about it later.
Deosyne
Last try
1. gfreeman:
"I will be absent from the office from July 16 through August 3...
Wasn't he the guy who caused all that trouble at Black Mesa? I thought the government were still after him, in which case it's no wonder he' "absent".
:-)
-- Steve
...that the news article on 'Hacking for human rights ' mentions that
"Hackers in the United States and other countries where abuses are infrequent should not be complacent" ....
Mind you it's worth checking Amnesty International to see their comments on human rights in the USA.
For example: knowing how to make a cable TV descrambler was never illegal -- using one to get free cable was.
;-)
Well, now it is illegal - as long as it's a digital signal. You better watch your thoughts from now on. You were a bit on the edge there naming a device called TV descrambler, but you'll get off with a warning this time (notes your personal info in his book).
If we keep this up, soon we'll explode like lemmings too
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Right on! Just like it's MY legal right to grow or purchase whatever mind-altering drugs I wan.... Oh wait. No it's not. But it IS my legal right to tell you and anyone I like how to grow or purchase mind-altering drugs. Unfortunately it seems computer programmers are no longer afforded those rights in their industry.
The given URL seems to be dead ... Mirrors anyone?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
Perhaps a new word can wend it's way into our collective vocabularies? :o)
In the 80's Russia was part of the "Evil Empire" known as the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was resoundingly condemned in the U.S. for censorship and the police state tactics of the KGB. Now we're in the new century and a Russian citizen comes here to present a paper and is arrested for presenting a technical paper at a conference. There's an irony here that would be funny, if it weren't for the fact that we U.S. citizens are the ones who have to live with this. Let's hope the DMCA gets before the Supreme Court soon!
I should have changed the subject title of the parent of this post. My bad, sorry!
y arov.html
_ 07_17_sklyarov.pdf
Press release:
http://www.usaondca.com/press/html/2001_07_17_skl
Complaint
http://www.usaondca.com/press/assets/applets/2001
Actually Adobe didn't hire them. Read the article. In Germany (where the law firm that wrote the letter is from) law firms can send letters to companies that infringe on anothers trademark without the consent of the company, and the charge the "offending" company.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
I went through all your old post searching for misspelled words and I must say that you practice what you preach. However many things I saw were putting down other people and calling them morons. I feel better knowing I only come across as someone to busy at work to use a spell checker. I'd really feel bad if I came across as a complete jerk.
Attn. Lord Nitpick, I spelled checked this one so you can sleep better tonight.
Now I'll wait for you to attack my grammer next.
To Whom it may concern,
As a user of your products I have become very offended today. I feel like your company is trying to insult my intellegence. Your company has choosen to enforce the DMCA by arresting Dmitry Sklyarov.
By arresting Dmitry you are sending a message that you will allow your product to continue using substandard security. You should be applauding Dmitry for showing that your software needs improvement. As a user of eBook I am happy that Dmitry has shown that the security can be broken. Do you actually think your customers want you to hide these problems so only the bad guys can get our data?
Would you want to continue using eBook if you know from now own Adobe will use scare tactics to keep security holes hidden? Put yourselves in your users shoes. I am not going to use eBook from here on out. I will be looking for another product until your views on the matters change. Not only do I feel you should change your decision you must also voice out against the DMCA. From here on out I will never use any products that support the DMCA or any other plan to take away citizens rights.
Thanks for listening,
One more upset customer
OK, so it was very noble of this person to point out the faults in the protection scheme so that others would know that their documents were not so safe after all...
However, if "these are people after all" in Adobe, then why would it be such a bad idea to present this to them first rather than just shoving the information out to the general public.
If a company claims certain features in it's advertising and packaging, then a public examination of those claims are completely valid. Consumer groups have been doing this for ages for everything from baby toys to trucks, bringing the company to task for incorrect and misleading information or just plain bad products. I see no difference in this case. Indeed, if you are selling software which claims to be 'secure' you had better get your claims right. Hiding behind the DMCA should not excuse the company from the trading standards laws or allow the company to wriggle out of the 'merchantable quality' requirements.
This is rather different from products such as web servers having security holes in them - there are reasonable grounds in these cases to inform the vendor of the problem first and only go public if nothing happens.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
"All HTML pages and supplementary files are compressed with deflate algorithm from ZLIB"
"Compressed data are encrypted by XOR-ing each byte with every byte of the string "encrypted", which is the same as XOR with constant byte"
This is totally mindboggling if true. Are we saying that people can XOR their data stream with a *single byte*, advertise it as "virtually 100% burglar-proof" and then get listened to when they complain about evol haxors cracking their encryption?
There are two kinds of sysadmins: paranoids and losers. I'm both kinds.
Only Adobe Acrobat can read the Loki Tribes 2 manual, for example. I'm not sure what features are unsupported, but for some reason neither gv nor xpdf work.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Good morning Americans. Its is your hand that put the guy in prison. It is your arm that voted for DMCA. It is you who votes for corrupt politicians. Stop whining! Stop blaming everybody else ! Stop blaming evil corporations.
Go habve a look at that mirror on that wall there ! You see the ruler of this country ! He has your face ! Oppression, indifference, inhumanity, recklessness, it all comes with your face on it. Now, stop talking.
f.
f.
Side note: gv works just as well as Acrobat to view PDF files from netscape as a helper app (and PS too, of course). Just add "gv %s" in as the application to handle the file types for PostScript and PDF(edit->preferences->helperapps or something like that). Personally I like gv's navigational structure better anyway.
(Well, /path/to/gv if it isn't in your path, naturally.)
Very rarely I will run across a document that gv just doesn't like but that Acrobat displays fine. This happens maybe once a month, if I'm looking at a fair amount of pdf's.
I think the software dependencies for gv are ghostscript and whatever dependencies it has but I'm not sure. apt-get or rpmfind.net or your ports tree are your friends in that regard.
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
c.
I would expect them to tell the bank first. If the bank denied it, and continued to advertise they had a hack proof system, yes - tell the whole world so that my bank will fix it. I would then get my money out of there quickly and demand answers from the bank over their misleading conduct.
It is better for this information to be in the public under the world's eyes, than kept secret for crackers to exploit.
After all, if you go to the relevant web sites, they claim to use the best encryption protection available. If this is the case, what are they worried about? Why would they care about this person's presentation. According to their own web site, the presentation must be wrong and their customer's have nothing to worry about.
This has highlighted some false claims made by a company in marketing. Does this mean that next time someone claims their software is secure, it is illegal to prove it is not?
What about consumer protection laws - this is misleading conduct on the behalf of the companies involved.
You are right. There is a power struggle going on.
Until 100 years ago, almost everyone on earth lived with shortages. While a few were rich, most people never even had enough to eat. The 20th century has been incredable. We acquired the ability to produce food and goods to satisfy the needs of everyone on earth.
We have had two major power struggles during the 20th century. At the beginning, production was 'difficult', so those who could produce were able to 'call the shots'. WW II was a war of production and it was won by the side that was able to produce the most bombs and bullets.
Since then, productivity has continued to improve. Production is no longer the 'hard part'. The challenge during the past few decades has been to convince people to buy. Hence marketing has become king. Between 3rd world labor and automation, production costs have fallen dramatically. For most products, the major costs are marketing & distribution and R&D.
But the smart folks have recognized that the 21st century will be even more unsettling than the 20th century. Computer controled extraction of natural resources and production (including nanotechnology) can drive manufacturing costs to almost zero. (Go read 'A is for Anything') With the Internet, we will be able to distribute the knowledge of how to produce. This will eliminate the challenges associated with distribution, so there will be no money to be made there.
This is why there's such a fight for intellectual property rights. Only by controling the knowledge of how and what to produce can those who value power maintain any. By the middle of the 21st century, the major cost of any material item will be the 'intellectual property' charge. With production automated, most people will be working in service jobs by 2050. And then it gets more interesting.
As AI research progresses, we will be able to build robots capable of doing service jobs. The health care crisis will be 'solved' during the second half of the 21st century. Robots will replace, not only orderlies and nurses, but physicians and surgeons, too. The cost of producing these robots will be minimal. The valuable commodity will be the knowledge of how to program them to do what you want them to do.
By the end of the 21st century, creativity, the creation of intellectual property, will be the only currently known role that will still be the domain of us humans. And the control of that creativity is what is being fought for now.
That's the power struggle going on now. It's just started.
One more thing. By the end of the 21st century, molecular genetics will have progressed to the point that most people will be able to live almost forever. Imagine living forever in a world where production and services basically cost nothing. The only thing of value will be control of the intellectual property behind it all. Imagine a world where material items sell for ten cents each and services are provided for ten cents an hour. It's paradise if you have the money to pay for what you want. But if you don't, how do you compete with such prices?
The challenge as we approach the 22nd century will be to rethink the issues of access. How do we reward innovation while making it possible for most people to survive and live reasonably good lives? Because, if most people cannot pay for those goods and services, there will be a revolution. If it succeeds, those who were on top will be gone. If the revolution fails, the whole economic system will collapse from lack of customers.
Hang onto your hat. It's going to be a wild ride.
Morris Schneiderman
How about if I remove you from your family and loved ones and lock you up in a prison in, say, Siberia. You will be assured the right to trial, etc. It will take a while, though.
Will you be so ready to make concessions then?
Get the Hell off my planet, you slimy mobster Bush!
This has got to stop. Contribute to the EFF or the ACLU. Refuse to use and buy these shoddy products that people can crack easier than Microsofts CE password encryption.
Is this the same USA that I was born in 28 years ago? Why are we letting this happen? Remember you have absolutely no right to complain, if you don't try and do something about it.
Rather worrying - where does this criminalisation of knowledge end?
Ross wrote "Security Engineering" (a mighty tome, should be of interest to many Slashdotters, plenty of info about it on his site).
oh wait...
:)
Free Dmitry!!!!
and one Free Mumia with 3 UPC codes or 100 bazooka joe comics too
[Connection closed by foreign host]
Be assured your constitutional rights to free speech and freedom of the press have been taken away. It is a sad day when a man can be thrown in jail for intelligent speech and writing. But that is what has happened here. Where will the madness created by the DMCA end?
"Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press"
It is a very important distinction. If you get pulled over for speeding, you are very definitely detained. Would you rather simply be arrested?! Would you like any time a cop stops you for any reason to require an arrest?
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Are you sure you aren't confusing a CIVIL action with a CRIMINAL action of a low enough severity that imprisonment is not allowed. As far as I remember, the Supreme Court said you can arrest even for crimes for which imprisonment is not allowed - that is a far cry from arresting someone for a civil violation. BTW, speeding is a CRIMINAL offense (as are other traffic violations) in many states. For example, Nevada. Plus a FINE is only assessed for CRIMINAL offenses, for civil offenses it is a civil penalty.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
As much as I am more patrotic (for the U.S., that is) then most Slashdot readers, I hope Russia does start a war (well, maybe not a war, but complains loadly.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Market economics mean that the value of this companies' technology is not the devlopment costs. Rather, it's the ability to be usefully to end users.
Poor encryption is not useful, and therefore, these companies should loose value.
If Ford make a shoddy car, is it ok for people to tell others, even though it might hurt their stock price?
If XYZ, Inc., invented electronic paper that lost all it's data after one month, but had just started shipping it, shouldn't investors know about their scam?
I think so.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
funny
You're nothing; like me.
"Thank you" is two words :P~~~~
--
Pendant n. A person who, by correcting others, gives himself (or herself) just enough rope by which to hang. Colin Reynolds 1996
The IP policy homepage leads to this page about the copyright reform process. All Canadians can submit comments by September 15 by mail or fax, or electronically in HTML, Wordperfect or Word format. Comments on the submissions are due October 5. Time to start a draft...
Do these actions always backfire?
* Attempted censorship. A thousand people immediately buy the book and/or see the movie.
* DCMA. A thousand people that knew nothing about CSS immediatly download DeCSS and buy a T-Shirt with the code.
* DCMA (again). A thousand people immediatly attempt to download the slashdotted powerpoint show.
Am I missing something regarding the effeciveness of these sorts of laws? (Other than, of course, ruining the lives a few individuals who are made the scapegoats.)
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
Once upon a time I really needed to print a .pdf that was not supposed to be printed, so I got Ghostscript, the relevant encription modules, and changed the postscript source (yes, the modules are made in postscript) to let me print the damn thing...
Easy, fast, nice...
It was my first and only experience in postscript programming.
This is not new stuff, and I don't really see any problem with it.
You cannot proceed from the informal to formal by formal means
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
First he was not arrested in the proper way he was kidnapped by soldiers from a foreign power (he was in Panama at the time so for an arrest to be legal he should have been extradited by Panama, not illegaly taken in by US Marines who even went so far to plant drugs in his car).
Second IIRC he was not allowed to testify in court or have his defense team bring up anything before the court that would have stirred up a scandal about his ties with the CIA. So basically he could not respond to the charges brought against him and had to take the legal assault without defense.
Lets hope this Russian guy doesn't get a similar treatment or he would pine for the "good old days" of the Soviet Union because he would have been treated better by them than by the USA.
PS: I know Noriega is an asshole but the USA used this asshole for many years as a stooge and then cried foul when they didn't have a use for him anymore and they wanted to put some other asshole in charge of Panama who'd break the Panama canal treaty (which was the reason for this whole exercize anyways and it doesn't matter that the later US Clinton administration did honour the Panama canal treaty) because Bush hated what Carter had done in the '70s and could not find a legal way of getting out from under its terms.
But then the USA has a long history of breaking treaties by violence when they dont suit them anymore. Just ask the Sioux and many other indian tribes.
(third paragraph) "persuit" should be spelled "pursuit"
(last sentence) "yout" should be "your"
If your goal is to create a backlash against this "evil hacker" who cost the stockholders "irreparable damage to potential revenue streams", your plan makes sense. If your goal is to create a backlash against Adobe themselves, you are a clueless Slash-hole.
Its really disturbing that a foreigner is being detained, for explaining how half baked a software companies' protection scheme is. :)
....you know, just in case I may ANNOY someone at MS, wouldn't want the "cops in their pocket" at my door!
PLEASE RE-READ THE ABOVE SENTENCE
Now think about it for a moment, this is some scary shit! How can any authority feel that they are even REMOTELY justified in taking this action?
God, I guess I better cancel my seminar on how much I dislike the WindowsXP GUI and possible ways to circumvent the look.
-----------------------------
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
da PERL
CAMERA
Broken Hearts are for Assholes. - Frank Zappa
Correct.
In the first case, that would not be entrapment as they were in no way encouraging youto break the law.
In the second, however, it would be entrapment.
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
By the way, please moderate this guy up some more, mass action is a way to get attention.
... User unknown)
... while talking to inner-relay-1.adobe.com.:
... User unknown ... User unknown
blamkin and gfreeman are absent,
ttownsley doesn't exist seemingly
From: blamkin (via the www vacation program)
Subject: Out of the office on vacation until July 30
I will be out of the office on vacation until July 30, and will not be checking email. If you have an urgent issue, please contact my assistant, Laura Giffin at 408-536-4375 (lgiffin@adobe.com)
If you are sending me an email that requires my immediate attention when I return, please mark it Urgent and resend it. I will get back to you as soon as I can the week of July 30.
-Bryan
From: gfreeman (via the www vacation program)
Subject: absence from the office & no email access
I will be absent from the office from July 16 through August 3 and will not be accessing email during this period. In my absence, Lew Epstein (lepstein@adobe.com) will be assuming my responsibilities. For matters requiring prompt attention during my absence please contact either Lew or Lisa Sellers (lsellers@adobe.com).
Thank you
Graham
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
(reason: 550 5.1.1
(expanded from: )
----- Transcript of session follows -----
>>> RCPT To:
550 5.1.1
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
I am writing today to express my displeasure concerning the way Adobe has conducted itself in regards to Dmitry Sklyarov and Elcomsoft. It would seem that, rather than thanking Mr. Sklyarov for exposing serious flaws in your products, and then correcting them, you have chosen to pursue a course of litigation and intimidation via the misuse of law enforcement.
I believe that copyright holders must have methods to secure their works. But as is obvious thanks to Elcomsoft's work, the protection afforded by Adobe's eBook products is easily overcome. There is no doubt that THOUSANDS of people have been taking advantage of this, silently, and thus ripping off legitimate copyright holders. Elcomsoft has only vocalized what was already occurring.
As an Adobe customer, here is what I want: The pursuit of better products, and not more litigation. We have enough of that already. I fear one day that my children may be imprisoned for pointing out flaws in corporate products, or for engaging in legitimate research of code and computer products. Perhaps, if you have children, they will be too. So I urge Adobe to "back off" as it were and refocus the money that would have been spent on lawyers into developing a more secure and better eBook system.
Thank-you for your time, and I look forward to your reply!
While I don't advocate and don't intend to cause harm to anyone's person or Adobe's physical plant, I would shed no tears if Adobe's HQ burned to the ground, preferably with the decision-maker responsible for this inside.
I believe this is what they call a "paradox."
"And like that
If I were part of a company screwing over someone else's copyright or exploiting their crappy code, my company would be subject to a law suit. I can't imagine we'd all be hauled off in the paddy wagon. But an individual doing this can be jailed?
I'm not being sarcastic [this once]. I seriously don't get this.
[For my money, you should be subject to arrest for giving your conference such an overly-dramatic title. Hacking for human rights, my arse.]
But the greater evil here is clear to see. In the graphics world Adobe = Microsoft, a single company holding the reigns on all of the industry's mission-critical tools. Time to get a better text tool for GIMP and get it to the people.
So does this mean that women in some small towns can get arrested for wearing pants, or for driving a car without their husband walking in front of it waving a red flag? http://www.dumblaws.com
Billions of people can't tell what they think in their countries, are killed, imprisoned without judgement, screwed in their basic human rights for just expressing their opinions. China killed more than 1700 only this year. Now with the information technology, their voice can be heard.
It's time to be peacefully subversive.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
Anyone out there have any clue as to what we cana do here if anything. What might happen to him if he is found guilty?
"Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
Don't just lament how wrong this is. TELL Adobe what you think of them and their actions. But PLEASE, be polite. Messages like "j00 suX0r Adobe!" get thrown in the PLOINK-bin faster than you can blink, and without a second thought. But a well-written message detailing why you are not happy with them, and what they can do about it, would be most helpful. Here are some PR contacts at adobe:
jcristof@adobe.com
dstyerwa@adobe.com
lvacante@adobe.com
ablatchf@adobe.com
skrueger@adobe.com
gbabbit@adobe.com
wsaso@adobe.com
Don't forget to give them a ring on the tele:
(408) 536-6000
And lastly, we have the executive's email addys (I think. I have not verified these addresses, so they may not work. The ones above will for sure though.)
jwarnock@adobe.com
cgeschke@adobe.com
bchizen@adobe.com
snarayen@adobe.com
mdemo@adobe.com
gfreeman@adobe.com
cpouliot@adobe.com
jstephens@adobe.com
ttownsley@adobe.com
mdyrdahl@adobe.com
blamkin@adobe.com
Go out there and tell them! Corporations are run by people, just like us. Sometimes those people do very stupid things and need correction; that is what I plan to do, and everyone who reads this message should do the same.
-- russ
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
The economy was fine before Napster was shut down. Trading and ripping MP3s created demand for bandwith and fast hardware.
Or prone to hyperbole. But I'll keep you guessing <grin>.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
While I don't advocate and don't intend to cause harm to anyone's person or Adobe's physical plant, I would shed no tears if Adobe's HQ burned to the ground, preferably with the decision-maker responsible for this inside.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Also, the presentation makes clear that many of the formats use weak encryption, perhaps with the intent of hiding behind the DMCA and adding legal clout to their licensing term (xor encrypting with a byte derived from the string "encrypted" comes to mind).
This is despicable and harms society in ways which are beyond most people's comprehension. Security depends on peer review and criticism because there are always more people outside your organization that would like to get in than you have staff to keep track of these things. Peer review of encryption schemes is necessary to maintain computer security in all aspects of our society. Hiding behind the DMCA at best causes a false sense of security for publishers and at worst harms all computer security by dampening peer review or all encryption schemes.
The presentation was great. (Hint-- Fight the DMCA-- widely distribute it!).
Sig: Tell all your friends NOT to download the Advanced Ebook Processor:
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
these guys are spearheading it I think... http://www.boycottadobe.com/.
Anywhere sad enough to hire me despite that stuff would be a cool place to work, I reckon ;)
--
"I'm not downloaded, I'm just loaded and down"
Last time I threw up a quick mirror in response to a Slashdot story I ended up as a "J.Doe" on the DVDCCA case in California. Not sure how they think Californian law works in the UK, but there you go...
When will these people learn that you can't pout the toothpaste back in the tube? *sigh*
--
"I'm not downloaded, I'm just loaded and down"
Do you happen to have the ps file? Instead of a bunch of /.'ers hitting the site to convert it, and arrousing suspicion, if one person has done so, please post or email the ps copy to me.
cpungent@linuxplanet.nu
C Pungent
You know, I've seen a lot of people condemning the system as broken when the system hasn't even gotten out of 'park'. The courts are where this is to be played out, but no one wants to actually make that concession. Everyone seems so quick to say "EVIL EVIL EVIL" when in fact, no one is letting the beautiful "checks & Balances" work. oh. I forgot. we want our gratification now
Those who know it least, know it loudest, and I'm being heard in Borneo.
--
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
--
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
Uh, no. I realize that many here consider RMS divine, if not dreamy, but he is flat-out wrong. There has never been a government anywhere at any time that did not have as its top priority itself. In all governments, be they communist, democratic, republican, socialist, monarchist, whatever, you will find that it is a government of the government bureaucrat, by the government bureaucrat, for the government bureaucrat.
I was (un)fortunate enough to work for a NASA contractor in DC during the government shutdown a few years ago. We discovered some amazing things. First, we didn't need the civil servants to do our job. Second, without them, we got a lot more work done because they weren't in the way. Third, it was a lot quieter. Fourth, the network was quicker. Fifth, if they are considered 'non-essential', why were they hired in the first place?
Every government action I've ever seen comes down to one of the following:
- They have to enforce a silly law that was passed by Congresscritters who believe the government should poke its nose everywhere.
- The bureaucracy attempts to expand its wealth and power at the expense fo the wealth, power, and freedom of the taxpayer
- The bureaucracy fights to preserve their wealth and power against a mob of angry taxpayers
- The bureaucracy blames others (often the evil forces of capitalism if there is no Republican handy) for the problems it creates and perpetuates
And finally, I have no sympathy for those who demand the government do get more power then whine when the government uses that power to do something they don't like. You'd think empirical evidence would tell them otherwise.I do agree that we should fight the government, good and hard, for our freedoms. But to expect any government to do what's right when the civil servants can't be fired and when government agencies face no competition is to have both your feet planted firmly in the air.
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
Another win for Mr. Bush
http://monkeyserver.com --- weeeeee
But good for everyone. There's going to be a big court case and I think this one has a much better chance than DeCSS. The full product does. They have taken a very public stance on the shoddiness of Adobe's work. One of the key failures in section xxx of the DMCA is the lack of a copyright holders' responsibilty for 'due diligence' in creating a secure product. The russian guy will be found guilty under the statute, but the appeal will succeed not on constituional grounds (as they were pushing for with DeCSS), but on standard claims for responsibility. The DeCSS case is difficult, because if the section being contested is found to be unconsitutional, it will be stricken from the books (Courts don't like to do that). This would allow a good precedent to be set (due diligence) while not requiring a rewrite of the existing law. Poor Russian guy though. Maybe Russia will start a war over this. Boom Boom.
then isnt it true that it is NOT a violation of the DMCA to break encryption, etc for the purpose of furthing education and knowledge? Since it was a speach he was making... and not a turtoial on "H0w 70 g37 k-r4D fR33 b00kZ", i think hes well protected even if the DMCA applied to him in the first place.
Doesnt anyone remember this?
since they (laywers) realised the DMCA existed, they've successfully used it to attack down just about any decent innovation on the internet.
.net and it's amazing anything actually usefull can happen.
... do something about it like the folks at the freenet project or else it will be a dismal future for the net.
DeCSS, Napster/MP3 trading, and now eBooks
Add to that the huge amount of spying and useless coorporations that are trying to patent every single significant part of the
What the hell is actually going on here ?
Power Struggle maybe ?
Can't fix the 'economy' so they have to attack EVERYTHING else good that we have left. ?
It's a downward spiral from here folks, and I don't know about you, but I am jumping ship while I still can. It's time to either get an outdoors normal non-geeked life, or
Move that case into this post-DMCA case we live in today, and you would likely see the publisher of the magazine thrown in jail for creating an anti-circumvention device, and the PR people saying that this is a great victory for everyone because those evil hacker people were thrown in jail. Of course they'd also neglect to say that this information would probably become much more wide-spread than it otherwise would have been, and that a lot of innocent people would be adversely affected because the manufacturer would have little motivation to fix a glaring security flaw.
The result? The flaws are not fixed and there is the possibility of even more damage. People still know the flaws, but the problem is not fixed.
D - M - C - A
If god had intended you to be naked, you would have been born that way.
You seem to be confusing two legal issues that involve Adobe. The Adobe infringement suit with the German law company involved KDE's KIllustrator. I don't think the arrest of the defcon speaker has anything to do with that.
--
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Musashi
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
OK, so it was very noble of this person to point out the faults in the protection scheme so that others would know that their documents were not so safe after all...
However, if "these are people after all" in Adobe, then why would it be such a bad idea to present this to them first rather than just shoving the information out to the general public. I'm not saying to keep it from everyone, just give Adobe a heads up so that they can deal with it correctly and make their package better. Of course if Adobe says "ok now don't tell anyone," then I would say "kiss my ass, the people must know." Which would probably bring some legal action, however at least by telling them first you can prove no animosity towards the company, thus lessening the penalty or removing it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ now you know
I'm no lawyer to discuss amendments. All a have to do is agree, and try to learn more with whatever you've said.
But I can say that nobody owns the truth. Probably Stallman isn't right, neither do I, and neither do you! I only said, and keep saying that I agree with him (lucky yours, you don't).
But I prefer to listen tbone1 right after you. All I've seen until today about government matches with his opinion. Try to read that, it sounds pretty realistic to me.
P.S.: I wish I could give tbone1 score 5
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
As Richard Stallman said before:
He was talking about DMCA and the new Free Software laws in other countries.
So, if there's nothing like DMCA in your country, fight for your rights, don't let them cut back your rights!
Don't worry, I'm too busy [to|every]day
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
Was he arrested for the speech he gave in Las Vegas, or for breaking the DMCA laws while he was in Russia? The article doesn't say why he was arrested, but that's how everyone is making it sound (and last I check DMCA laws didn't apply to russian citizens who are in Russia). Anyone found more info on this yet?
Help find a cure for cancer!
Actually, according to the DMCA it's not. Sorry.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
The dreadful Russian Hackers, Osama bin Laden -- and whoever American mothers now spook kids by -- should expect no humane treatment on the U.S. soil. They are condemned by the state and the media.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
And if hell froze over, I might still not go there for ski vacations. :)
http://www.goodwebsites.com/defcon.ppt
"Anonymous Coward" is for whistleblowers, not unpopular opinions.
Someone here went to DefCon and saw this. What exactly went on, play by play?
"Anonymous Coward" is for whistleblowers, not unpopular opinions.
Not only do we have our own version of the DMCA which would get this guy 5 years for creating a circumvention device, but we're actually introducing ammendments to the criminal code which would get him another 10 years for the same offence and of course even more time on top for having done it on a computer.
I actually have to wipe tears of laughter from my eyes as I think about the American Bill of Rights. Here, in Australia, the people's rights are protected by the politicians - however they see fit. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha.
In fact, our laws are now so intrusive that if Adobe gave us enough cash we could probably try extraditing this guy to Australia to face local charges over all of this. Unless someone can show that the law is unconstitutional, (which our constitution just doesn't provide for in this case), we'd have him!
By the way - has anyone noticed that you need to be using an Adobe product to view pretty much any Govt. document in Australia. Correction:You don't actually need to, but, with these new laws you wouldn't want to get caught using anything else.
Sen. Hon. Richard K R Alston
Sen. Hon. Richard K R Alston
Australian Federal Minister for Communications, Information Technology
I don't think that would go over well. Can anyone explain a difference to me? Or would the U.S. accept this arrest without problem?
Judicative
Legislative
Corporative
-- sigs are like parking spaces - all the good ones are occupied
Although slightly off topic. Why don't you try posting your thoughts on this as yourself rather than an Anonymous Coward, hmmm. Then why don't _you_ "Get a fucking life" rather than sitting on your computer trying to cause a disturbance.
-- Chris Jervis
Although some may disagree. The US government (in some respects) are idiots. But then, Our (Australia) government isn't much better.
-- Chris Jervis
I'd like to goto an all women's prison. maybe then i'd get laid.
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
- You'd be surprised at what one can do with a prolapsed rectum and a great deal of determination....
Right on! Just like it's MY legal right to grow or purchase whatever mind-altering drugs I wan.... Oh wait. No it's not.
m00.
I still believe that American Goverment is the most idiot. It is not law for poeple but law for companies.
I think it is perfectly clear to everyone what has happened. Someone has been arrested for a crime commited in another country, that in that other country is not a crime (Unless of course they are planning on charging him for what he SAID in the us, having purely said and done nothing more, in which case it should be promptly dismissed). This comparable to someone being arrested for buying fireworks and using them in new hampshire, when they came back to massachusetts. In all situations it seems unlikely to me that any judge that has passed the bar, and thus read the constitution and all of its amendments, aswhile as gained a large understanding of the copyright system and the rest of corporate law, would not see how clearly iligitimate the charges being brought against him are, and put the case where it belongs, in nothing more than records.
I've done my duty and emailed Adobe politely about this abuse of a bad law. Perhaps at the next DefCon, presentations on how to circumvent this Adobe flaw will be distributed to the public as encrypted PDF's, so that DCMA supporters will not have access to content they find objectionable.