Attacks On US Continued Reports

I'm still having problems getting news from most normal sites, and we are just barely holding up. Both world trade towers have collapsed after hijaacked planes crashed into them. New Yorkers are asked to give blood. Pentagon has collapsed after similiar crash. A pilot of another hijaacked plane crashed in a PA field rather then hitting another target in Pitt (unconfirmed). Military is at the highest alert. US Embassy in Oslo evacuated, all israeli embassies evacuated. 2 Flights to LAX lost radio contact. 3 other planes down. London evacuating. Camp David crash is false. Bin Laden threatened about 2 months ago. Many many many dead. Many other cities evacuating and shutting down.

Comments

CNN Slowly Coming Back

[bahtama]

This may have been already posted, but CNN is slowly making its way back online, just give it some time to load, it is still very sporadic. Although the BBC [bbc.co.uk] is the best one for news so far.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/worldtrade.crash/ index.html [cnn.com]

Here it is from CNN, only a synopsis right now.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Terrorists struck the United States Tuesday morning in harrowing, widespread attacks that included at least three commercial jet crashes into significant buildings.

In the first attack, a plane smashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center in Manhattan shortly before 9 a.m., followed by another plane into the second tower about 20 minutes later. Both towers later collapsed. Sources told CNN that one of the planes was an American Airlines Boeing 767 that had been hijacked after take-off from Boston.

About an hour later, a plane crashed into the Pentagon in Washington, part of which later collapsed.

Sources say a second plane was heading toward the Pentagon; F-16 jets were in the air monitoring it.

The Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, the Justice Department, the Capitol, the CIA and all other government buildings in Washington evacuated.

In the first ever national ground stop of aircraft, all flights nationwide have been stopped at their departure airports.

All international flights were diverted to Canada.

Israel has evacuated all its missions around the world.

President Bush cancelled an appearance in Florida to return to Washington, calling the crashes "apparent terrorist attacks" and "a national tragedy."

In Chicago, the Sears Tower was evacuated; United Nations in New York evacuated.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta was evacuated.

The New York Port Authority said it had closed all bridges and tunnels into the city.

New York's Bellevue Hospital was designated command central for handling the catastrophe. Several hospitals have already reported receiving victims with burns and head injuries.

Large plane crashed 80 miles south of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but it was unknown if this crash was connected to terrorist attacks.

U.S. stock markets were closed after the New York attacks.

Re:CNN Slowly Coming Back

[Anonymous Coward]

The plane in PA was hijacked, someone with a cellphone on the plane called 911... today's date

Re:CNN Slowly Coming Back

[rw2]

We're covering this on Poliglut at this
link. Photos and links being updated every few minutes.

Re:CNN Slowly Coming Back

[FFFish]

First plane: American Airlines, Flight 11, Boston=>LA, 92 on board.

Second: UA, 175, Boston=>LA, ?.

Third (Pentagon): AA, 77, Dulles=>LA, 64.

Four: UA, 93, Newark=>SF, ?.

Five: UA, Camp David.

Six: (PA crash),

Seven: (CO crash?), UA?, 175, =>LA?

Many planes still in the air, none currently threatened.

Re:CNN Slowly Coming Back

[kilgore_47]

This type of massacre is not the way to earn my sympathy or catch my ear.

Exactly. Even if the group behind this ever had a chance of making friendly with the US, they have lost that chance now. They've gained nothing but the hatred of the American people. They've raillied (american) public support for military action against themselves, something that once would have been difficult.

Re:CNN Slowly Coming Back

[thetman]

where did you hear this? do you have a link?

Re:CNN Slowly Coming Back

[mpe]

Actually, there were 3 planes hitting the towers. The third plane to hit the second tower low is what caused that tower to collapse. I'm not sure what caused the collapse of the other tower.

No 3rd plane. Both towers appear to have collapsed in the same way. Weakening of the structure over several floors due to impact and fire, these floors collapse, resulting in the top of the building crushing the remainder of the structure.

DFLP claim false

[merlin_jim]

DFLP has said that they are not responsible. The TV station confirmed that the call they received this morning was anonymous. High level DFLP officials are in contact with the US gov't, and according to ABC are offering to cooperate fully.

a meta slashdotting!

[Karmageddon]

Update We're having server problems. Sorry.

I think you're being slashdotted :)

over here

[psych031337]

We (members of the german army) have been put on alert, people are being revoked from holiday, all system/material checked, no talk policy.

Re:over here

[OblongPlatypus]

But typing is ok, it seems? :)

Re:over here

[cyberdonny]

Well, the Defense Minister does it too, so where's the problem?

American Airlines confirms 2 planes lost

[Randy Rathbun]

Here is what is on their webpage:

AMERICAN CONFIRMS TWO AIRCRAFT LOST

FORT WORTH, Texas ? American Airlines confirmed today that it lost two aircraft in tragic incidents this morning. American said the flights were Flight 11, a Boeing 767 en route from Boston to Los Angeles with 81 passengers, nine flight attendants and two pilots; and Flight 77, a Boeing 757 operating from Washington Dulles to Los Angeles with 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots.

Because of the heightened security due to the nature of today?s events, American said it is working closely with U.S. government authorities and will not release more information at this time.

The government has shut down the entire air traffic system in the United States. American, TWA and American Eagle will not operate.

"We are horrified by these tragic events," said Donald J. Carty, chairman and CEO of American Airlines. "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of all involved."

Media calls should be directed to the FBI. Customers who wish to receive information about relatives should call American?s response number at 1-800-245-0999.

Updated information about this morning's incident in New York will be available here as soon as it is verified. Check back frequently and refresh your browser often to make sure you have the most current information.

Anyone else worried about biological/viral?

[weslocke]

Granted exploding planes aren't exactly the best transport system for biological agents, but with the number of people compressed into relatively small places, a good number of which will soon be travelling back to their home areas soon...

The possibilty of secondary attacks to that end are just frightening as hell.

Re:Anyone else worried about biological/viral?

[Skyshadow]

Absolutely.

I live in a place of significance to the US's position in the world (Silicon Valley) where there aren't many big targets.

Think like a terrorist for a minute, and ask yourself how you would attack the SV if you wanted to.

I'd have stayed home today, but I don't know where I'd go to be safe...

Re:Anyone else worried about biological/viral?

[kilgore_47]

Think like a terrorist for a minute, and ask yourself how you would attack the SV if you wanted to

With an EMP device of some sort I'd imagine.

latest

[forsaken33]

Latest on the news is that the Palestinians have condemmned the attack, attention has shifted to Bin Laden who has in fact threatened us a while ago. Estimates on ABC were in the 50-60,000 dead at the world trade center alone. Pentagon they wer saying like 5,000? its all guesses right now.

Re:latest

[mikeage]

That's correct. I saw it as well... in the so-called "East Jerusalem", many of the same people who yell "Death to the Jews" also yell "Death to America". That's right, they don't just hate Israelis, they hate us, too... wonderful.

Re:latest

[M. Piedlourd]

Just a correction, 50.000 to 60.000 at the late WTC are worst-case casualties, not fatalities. No one knows, of course, how many have been killed, certainly many thousands, but most news sources say no more than 5.000 are dead and no more than 25.000 wounded. These numbers are sure to increase; may God, Allahw akg all the rest help us all.

Re:latest

[pclinger]

There are 50,000 workers at the WTO. I don't see how 60,000 can die from this unfortunate disaster (include the plaines you add another 150 or so).

This is a national tragedy, I think I speak for all of us when we say that our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

Re:latest

[Ian Wolf]

Ever seen the plaza right outside the WTO? Not to mention a lot of people go to some of the cafes for breakfast and such. I'm not saying 10,000, but it could have happened.

Fortunately, I don't think it will be quite that many.

Re:latest

[GreyPoopon]

There are 50,000 workers at the WTO. I don't see how 60,000 can die from this unfortunate disaster

Perhaps from a surrounding building when the towers collapsed?

Re:latest

[jhoffoss]

If you didn't already know this, you need to pull your American head out of your American ass and realize that our (American's) shit does not smell like roses and the majority of the world does not like America or what we have done for/to the world.

Re:latest

[mikeage]

I don't like most of what we do either, but attacking the World Trade Center, and the pentagon, is plain and simply unacceptable.

Re:latest

[jhoffoss]

I agree totally; I did not make my previous comment to imply or insinuate in any way that ANYONE deserves this, and I apologize if you took it that way. This is a heinous act and do not look forward to seeing what we do in retaliation to whoever did this. Eye for an eye will not work. But that's what will happen.

Re:latest

[jhoffoss]

I don't deny we've done good, I don't deny many countries count us as allies. That does not, however, imply that a country's citizens love/like/are indifferent to Americans. Take a trip to any larger European/Middle-Eastern/Asian city to see what I mean.

Yes, we've done good, improved the world, all that. We've also destroyed some country's local culture (or are in the process), stepped on toes, all that. That doesn't mean we are loved or hated simply for this. That is what I was talking about. You talk to half the people in the US, backwater towns, whatever, and everyone assumes we walk on water. Most every person on /. knows this not to be true, though.

Re:latest

[kilgore_47]

they hate us, too... wonderful.

Maybe its because they're tired of having the Israelis kill they're people with the complete backing of the U.S. Or maybe they're just assholes.

The Pittsburgh Crash

[ackthpt]

Was a 747 jet bound for San Fran. Prayers for those lives lost, and families with loss on this day of infamy.

Re:The Pittsburgh Crash

[r_j_prahad]

An unconfirmed report said that it appeared the pilot flew the jet into the ground, missing the target. So either the terrorist was unable to control the aircraft, or a very brave man at the controls tried to save as many lives as he could in his final moments. We may never know.

Very hard to type while wiping tears from one's eyes.

Re:The Pittsburgh Crash

[tzanger]

The scrambled fighters probably had shoot to kill orders. That's terrible.

No it's not, it's commendable. What would you prefer, that the terrorists have control over the plane and kill hundreds if not thousands?

It's one hell of a tough decision but I commend it.

what does this tell us

[rnd()]

about the ability of our internet infrastructure to handle the demand in cases of crisis?

Re:what does this tell us

[OblongPlatypus]

Moderate parent up please... my thoughts exactly.

Re:what does this tell us

[daviddennis]

It's all that blasted JavaScript and images. http://www.freerepublic.com/ kept running throughout the disaster.

Not that I'm in perfect agreement with all Free Republic stands for, mind, but their image-free "no fancy toys just the news" model works real well in a crisis.

The Internet, though, seems to have held up well - I don't see any slowdowns, just news sites slowed to unusability.

D

Re:what does this tell us

[komet]

The Internet infrastructure is doing just fine. It's just all those fancy content management systems which are getting overloaded.

Re:what does this tell us

[Trepidity]

well msnbc.com is still up and fast too, having switched to a "high-traffic" minimalist mode.

It appears only Microsoft can handle the big things.

Re:what does this tell us

[mpe]

I'm hoping that the news sources take this incident to heart and make sure their servers are ironclad, and make sure their pipes are huge.

Also that they either make their pages as "lightweight" as possible or have alternative lightweight versions...

Re:what does this tell us

[aozilla]

The internet is up and running fine. It's a large portion of the web that's down. What we need to do is build a web infrastructure similar to the internet infrastructure. Something like freenet would be a great start.

Re:what does this tell us

[Mike1024]

Hey,

what does this tell us about the ability of our internet infrastructure to handle the demand in cases of crisis?

As other posters have noted, this isn't an infrastructure problem; it's a site bandwidth problem. Specifically, this event is unlike most news events. Let's say this has caused a ten-times increase in traffic, whist most major stories only double the traffic.

If you are CNN.com, and you get an average traffic of 50Mbps. You could get a 100Mbps line, and be able to handle 99% of events, or you could get a 500Mbps line and handle 100% of events. The additional cost of bandwidth wouldn't be justified by that 1%-of-stories benefit.

Well, that's how I see it. They might be connected to a phat backbone, and pay by the megabyte. If that's the case, my point remains true, just for servers, instead of bandwidth. 100%-of-average overcapacity facility is easier to justify to the bosses than 1,000%-of-average overcapacity handling.

Michael

Re:what does this tell us

[Moofie]

Yeah, except for the radio and TV stations with their antennae on top of the World Trade Center. Betcha they're not faring too well.

AOL working great!

[jkasyan]

http://my.aol.com/news/news_special.psp?newsid=wor ldtrade

Re:AOL working great!

[Genom]

AOL owns CNN now...(through Time Warner)

People trust CNN, for the most part.

United Airlines web site

[Targetman]

http://www.ual.com/Response/PressReleases/0,11641, -1_,00.html

Unite's link. flight 93 is the Pa plane, flight 175 is missing.

Re:United Airlines web site

[technos]

UA is now reporting flight 175 as crashed.

Pentagon news (good)

[Anonymous Coward]

According to NPR, the Pentagon has *not* collapsed, and although there have been significant casualties, the section that was hit was a new section that had many vacant offices.

Re:Pentagon news (good)

[merlin_jim]

I have a direct line to certain officials involved in this... for those interested in details:

The outer facing of corridor 5 has fallen. It was a mostly empty section and the fire is mostly under control. Many casualties, but no deaths confirmed yet.

Re:Pentagon news (good)

[merlin_jim]

Casualty means an injury, not necessarily a death... I used to have the same misconception about the definition, took me a while to get it straightened out...

Lots of other people seem to have it too, I've been hearing the two terms used interchangeably today...

To set the record straight:

Main Entry: casualty
Pronunciation: 'ka-zh&l-tE, 'kazh-w&l-, 'ka-zh&-w&l-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Date: 15th century
1 archaic : CHANCE, FORTUNE
2 : serious or fatal accident : DISASTER
3 a : a military person lost through death, wounds, injury, sickness, internment, or capture or through being missing in action b : a person or thing injured, lost, or destroyed : VICTIM

Casualty therefore is anyone who could be considered injured seriously enough to be out of action for a while, but still alive. When reporting casualty figures, those deceased are usually listed seperately to differentiate between the two.

i am in times square

[circletimessquare]

i am in times square now i work at 5 world trade i was late for work today and obviously never made it i can not locate all of my coworkers i am emailing and phoning all cell networks seem to be flooded or down please everyone, pass this to EVERYONE: PRAY AND DONATE BLOOD PRAY AND DONATE BLOOD

tell everyone: PRAY AND DONATE BLOOD PASS THIS ON

Re:i am in times square

[imipak]

The net seems to be holding up pretty well, considering there's a major IX on 55 Broadway (I believe?) - traceroutes are going round the houses a little, but apart from the major news sites being knocked down for an hour or so, it seems to be coping pretty well.

At the risk of stating the obvious, if you're in the area, stay off the phone unless it's a vital call.

Re:i am in times square

[circletimessquare]

i just got back from st clare's and they are turning away hundreds of people who are trying to donate because they don't have the equipment, can you believe that? so anyone in the tristate area or elsewhere, just please donate blood and pray. there are no subway systems so everyone is walking uptown, midtown is full of thousands of people trailing uptown. please donate blood.

Re:i am in times square

[circletimessquare]

btw, i was very upset when i posted this, i'm not trolling or karma whoring. i am still crying. i see the cap letters to donate blood in the main text of the topic, so that is all i care about. you may take me down to -100 karma, i could care less about that crap. i don't care, i just want people to donate blood and pray. thank you. i am sincere. this is the scariest thing that has ever happened to me.

Donate Blood Now!

[MousePotato]

We are turning our business into an emergency blood donation center for the red cross. I ask that anyone who has a business that has a large amount of free space to donate it as an emergency center for the ARC to setup at.

If you cannot do that please just go and donate blood. It is desperately needed for the hundreds if not thousands injured today.

Re:Donate Blood Now!

[linzeal]

Find your local red cross chapter and donate!!!

Update: Military readiness

[merlin_jim]

The US military is on alert. For security reasons I can't post more details, but the 82nd airborne division has been told to suit up and according to one report one unit is already in the air, though they're not sure where they'll be landing yet. Speculation is that they'll land at a known friendly base in the middle east and then decide where to go from there.

Obviously, I can't reveal my source for this, but its a close relative who is 'in the know'.

Re:Update: Military readiness

[Rev Snow]

Loose lips sink ships, shit for brains!

I sure hope your ``source'' doesn't suffer for your inability to keep confidential information.

Re:Update: Military readiness

[r_j_prahad]

Don't post shit about the military's activities here! You've just told the world there's a plane over the Atlantic that needs to be shot down.

Look, folks, if somehow you stumble across privileged information regarding troop movements, please keep it to yourselves. You don't know who in the world is reading this.

Getting modded +5 for possibly putting lives in jeapordy is a travesty.

Re:Update: Military readiness

[merlin_jim]

For those responding with flames about this, this information is public knowledge. If I know it, then the great enemy (whoever it turns out to be) certainly knew it before I did. Now details on where they're going, etc. I would of course not give out (not that I have those details). Understand, a family member is on that plane. I don't want it hurt anymore than anyone else does.

Re:The really eerie thing is...

[clark625]

Okay, this is a flame--so feel free to mod it as such. But I'm disappointed in the moderators that would rate the above comment as "funny" and not something "insightful" or "interesting". I can't think of one "funny" thing in relation to this disaster.

Military Alert

[batboy78]

All bases in the Colorado Springs area including NORAD, and US Space Command are on Threatcon Charlie, not the highest state of alert, but close, all bases have been closed to the public, this is going to get ugly. Where the hell is President Bush? Is there going to be a war?

Re:Military Alert

[The_Steel_General]

Please note that Threatcon Charlie is an indicator of expected terrorist activity, not military alert. Just working from memory here, but it indicates a significant threat of terrorist attack. Threatcon Delta is higher and suggests that an attack is imminent.

TSG

Re:Military Alert

[Hater's Leaving, The]

Historically there's a trend towards life-taking attacks on the US leading to war, yes.

However, one death lead to 'the great war' (WW1 - 'great'??? sheesh).

Promise me one thing, in the USA, please:
For the whole world's sake don't counter-strike until you know exactly who's responsible, and only counter-strike exactly those people.

i.e. Don't blame all Arabs for the craziness of one radical faction.

THL
(Brit who's related to Arabs - Palestinians, in fact)

Re:Military Alert

[tzanger]

Promise me one thing, in the USA, please: For the whole world's sake don't counter-strike until you know exactly who's responsible, and only counter-strike exactly those people.

Amen. President Bush has already shown more reserve with this than Clinton did with OKC. I'm no big fan of either, but I'm hoping he continues to play this slow and steady until they can find who's responsible.

Re:Military Alert

[kilgore_47]

How can you make such a broad generalization as "arab people"?

I mean, white people (i'm assuming by your arogant-white-guy aditude that you are an arogant white guy) have done some pretty horrible things throughout history. So would it be OK to say "any white country that does nothing is guilty of Terrorism"?

Thats the aditude of the terrorists that did this.
You are no better than them, but I won't condem ALL white people because you are a jackass. Wake up!

(i would quote the parent post but its quite lengthy and I don't want to make the page that much longer for this crap. Read the parent post if interested.)

Re:Military Alert

[kilgore_47]

To quote your original post:
Most Arabs ARE TO BLAME!!!

Not "most arab nations" but "most arabs".

Imagine you are an arab living in the U.S.. You love America, and you are saddened by the attacks.

None of that will be taken into account when people direct their anger over this event toward you. Millions of Americans, just like jmccay, will hate you simply because you are arab.

I wouldn't be surprised if race riots break out in the next few days. A local junior college here in sunny northern california is littered with anti-arab papers. One car even had "Bomb Isreal" [?!wtf!?] written on the back window.

Your guilty-by-association aditude will help foster this atmosphere of hate. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Unconfirmed

[finkployd]

A pilot of another hijaacked plane crashed in a PA field rather then hitting another target in Pitt.

I reported that in #slashdot. It is what I hard from my roommate who heard it from her ex-bf who is a coast guard pilot. I cannot vouch for it being true, it comes from no official news source (as of this writing). I've also heard that it may have been shot down.

Finkployd
my prayers are with the victims and their families.

Re:Unconfirmed

[wishus]

I heard on the radio that the USAF shot it down because they determined it was hijacked and headed for the DC area.

"London Evacuating"

[Tim C]

That's not quite true; I am currently sat in an office pretty much in the centre of London (spitting distance from Trafalgar Square).

Canary Wharf and the London Stock Exchange have been evacuated, there are rumours of Heathrow (the nearest large airport) being shut down, and I'd be surprised if most of the City (the financial district, and original City of London) hasn't been evacuated, but the rest of us are still here.

(Of course, there's nothing nearby worth targetting, unless you really hate the theatre, or shops - Oxford Street is very close by, though...)

Coincidently, it's my birthday today; guess I won't be forgetting this one in a hurry.

Cheers,

Tim

Re:"London Evacuating"

[imipak]

A friend tells me Lloyds of London has been evacuated (world insurance centre, along with Frankfurt and... the World Trade Centre.)

I can't post any more. Words fail me.

Re:"London Evacuating"

[dazed-n-confused]

Sounds like bollocks to me. I work in the City of London (just 5 minutes' walk from the Bank of England), just travelled home by suburban rail, saw no unusual crowds or anything along the way. Maybe some "targets" emptied; maybe some offices closed early; but London Evacuating? Nope.

Confirming that...

[TDScott]

Newswires also reporting that pretty much every tall building in the Western world is being evacuated, including Canary Wharf, London and the London Stock Exchange.

Spurious reports of a crash into Chicago are at this time believed to be false.

(Disclaimer: IANANS - I Am Not A News Service)

blood drive

[Mattygfunk]

Hospitals are reportedly desperate for blood donations. If in the affected states please consider donating if it is practical where you are.

Los Angeles update...

[Zaphod B]

People are evacuating large buildings in droves in Los Angeles - Century City towers, downtown towers, all government buildings are closed to non-essential employees, and the Reagan Library is closed because no tourists were there and the two retired librarians wanted to go home.

People around here are all just evacuating to make themselves look important.

Opinions on response

[SpookyFish]

For Americans (and truly all free nations), this has shaken our country to the very core and IMHO brings into question the ability to live our lives with the freedom we've always enjoyed.

I believe retailation in the highest order is needed, but with religious zealots willing to carry out kamakazi attacks, I fear there will be two more for every one we kill.

How do we preserve / return to our way of life?

Re:Opinions on response

[Reality Master 101]

I believe retailation in the highest order is needed, but with religious zealots willing to carry out kamakazi attacks, I fear there will be two more for every one we kill.

It's tempting to believe that, but remember a couple of things. First, the amount of terrorism reduced dramatically after the US bombed Khadafi in the 80s. These people are fundamentally cowards. and 2) there aren't that many terrorists that can carry out missions like this. It was incredibly well coordinated. You don't have to cut off many heads to keep things like this from happening.

This requires a HUGE payback.

Re:Opinions on response

[Paul Jakma]

excellent idea!!!

that should ensure even more Anti-US ill-feelings are stirred up amongst Arabs, and guarantee more support for Arab extremists leading to ever-increasing circle of terrorist violence -> retaliation -> terrorist violence.. etc.

Dear God/$DEITY, please let the US be measured, rational and enlightened in response to this terrible act of terrorism, for the alternative is surely a road to darker days for this world.

--paulj

Re:Opinions on response

[Danse]

the crackpots who are opposed to the DMCA

I'm opposed to the DMCA, does that make me a crackpot in your view?

Re:Opinions on response

[SpookyFish]

This is an eloquent and insightful response. I agree with your first point, and likewise believe that draconian measures are very unlikely. Taking steps to make people feel safe is an important part of freedom, however, and a key difference between our society and that of the Gaza strip.

I must respectfully disagree with the second point. I am personally agnostic and would likely be atheist were it not for the incredibly deep-rooted faith in some people I have known. Whether the source is brainwashing or the unknown, there are fanatics with this strength of belief that tells them the American way of life is evil. I have little faith that diplomatic means can change these beliefs and know no answer other than eliminating their ability to carry out these attacks.

UA175 boston to LA reported down, but not where

[jmarca]

CNN reports second boston to LA flight, this one united 175 (as opposed to american 11 that hit the WTC) is down. Did *not* give any further details.

jem

One news site still running strong is...

[Walker Evans]

Portal Of Evil News

www.poenews.com

Racism

[danjerdanjel]

Hmmm... Think about the racial paranoia that is going to stem from this tragic event.

People, unfortunately, look for excuses to target any group, and blame their woes on them. Whether they be economic (as is typical), or, in this case, terrorist. The Jewish people have long been scapegoats for Europe's woes. Even recently, with the Pauline Hanson issue, here in au, in years past, where migrants were blamed for the countries environmental and economic problems.

Now. A group has already been selected, pretty much by default and with no actual basis in fact (yet). People of Middle Eastern background.

Unfortunately, there will be ramifications.

Re:Racism

[fnorgby]

YES YES YES.
People, remember that middle easterners were automatically blamed for the OK City federal building. This turned out to be one of our own.

RESERVE JUDGEMENT until the facts are in.

Re:Racism

[reimero]

As ABC News reminded us, we had the same reaction to the Oklahoma City bombing, immediately blaming militant Arabs. Turned out to be one of our own. On the other hand, who has the resources to pull off an attack like this one? Osama bin Laden is one of the few who does, but he's not the only one. I'm just at a loss to think of who else it might have been. But yes, before we blame people from the Middle East, we should examine all the facts.

Re:Racism

[sv0f]

Hmmm... Think about the racial paranoia that is going to stem from this tragic event.

A group has already been selected, pretty much by default and with no actual basis in fact (yet). People of Middle Eastern background.

I was born in Chicago but am of Asian Indian descent.

I remember how Arabic people were hassled during the Iran hostage crisis. I was in 4th grade then. My dad explained how the US supported the Shah, and how when he was deposed, his Iranian supporters were also forced to leave. We were pretty poor and lived in a crappy apartment complex in south Chicago. Two such Iranian families moved in during the crisis, each with little girls a few years younger than I was. They were harassed mercilessly at school -- the students did not understand that they were "on our side", so to speak.

I was a college student travelling Europe with a white friend when the World Trade Center was bombed a decade or so ago. We were pretty grubby as we went through customs at JFK airport in New York City upon our return. I was "randomly" picked out of line and directed to a secure area for detailed searching of my luggage. I noticed the other folks in the area were all of Middle Eastern or Indian descent. They had been "randomly" selected as well. I explained to the customs official that there was no need to search me, that I was natural-born US citizen, and flashed my passport. To no avail. By the time they finished with me, I had missed my connecting flight.

I remember the hysteria in the first two days following the Oklahoma City bombing, the automatic susipicion that the terrorists were Arabs. But this died down quickly.

I too worry that Arabs, even US citizens of Arab descent, will suffer in the aftermath of this tragedy. I'm not a member of that group, and have only experienced what I've detailed above, which is no big deal. I think it's important that we treat these people in the US fairly. This seems obvious as I write it, but maybe it's not.

On the other hand, the scale of this tragedy might change things altogether. The number of people that died at Oklahoma City is comparable to the number that die when a large commerical airliner go down. We can comprehend such numbers. But 10,000 people or more may have died today. That's 20% of the number of soldiers we lost in the Vietnam War, if my memory is correct. The average US citizen may not respond to this terrorist action as they have to those in times past.

Re:Racism

[Panaflex]

8 plane tickets, 4 cell phones, and a few guns.

It's not about resources, dude. It's about fanatacism. People with a deep conviction in voilence are extremly dangerous. It only took a few guys to take out the OK building.

And there is no political or civil remedy. Sorry congress.. adding fire alarms to the titanic won't work this time.

pan
no nyuck nyuck today..

Re:Racism

[Moofie]

No, the group that has been selected (Mr. Bin Laden's) is one that:

a) has threatened, in the last few weeks, major terrorist action in the US.
b) Is known to have been training people to fly passenger jets.
c) Hates everybody who doesn't look like him.

Circumstantial evidence, to be sure. But I don't give a DAMN what race the guy is...I do care that he's a psychopath. You can try to make this a race issue, but it simply is not. Just ask the (foolish) fellow who rode up to a crowd on a corner in Washington, DC, expressed his support for the terrorists, was briefly questioned by the police, and allowed to go on his way. Show me THAT sort of thing happening in, say, Afghanistan. Not bloody likely.

Perspective

[underwhelm]

Let's keep the truly remarkable thing in mind abou this: we heard about it on Slashdot first. Great job, guys.

Re:Perspective

[ryanvm]

Let's keep the truly remarkable thing in mind abou this: we heard about it on Slashdot first. Great job, guys.

You moron. The only reason you heard it here first is because you've got your head buried in your ass. There are current events in the world outside of the DMCA, DeCSS, etc.

Maybe Slashdot shouldn't be your sole source for news, eh?

Just talked to someone who was on the 81st floor

[jjn1056]

He got out. Maybe many other have. there are almost 40-500 thousand people in those buildings.

If you are in NYC, get off the phone lines NOW, and give blood.

New item on eBay

[TRS-80]

Motivated seller: "Two world Trade Centre buildings. No longer required. Some assemply may be required. Buy one or both, buy both and receive two free aircraft. ".

Only 3 hours before the first jokes appear ...

Re:New item on eBay

[daviddennis]

And people are bidding on it!

D

Re:New item on eBay

[hearingaid]

Of course, the item has now been delisted. Thankfully.

Re:The really eerie thing is...

[macdaddy]

I disagree with the funny rating. It's not very funny. Honestly I think today would be a good day for the "funny" moderation option to be disabled.

What today really is

[ackthpt]

The anniversary of the signing of the Camp David Accords. One jet has crashed at Andrews AFB near Camp David. It's also almost 60 years since Pearl Harbor. This is our generations Day of Infamy.

Whomever has done this has awakened the giant. We will not rest until we run them down and expose their evil and folly to the world.

I may be a frequent critic of W., but today, I'm behind him 100% and want the culprits brought to justice and their abbetors, likewise.

Re:What today really is

[ackthpt]

Shock ... then grief ... then anger ...

Count on it.

Re:What today really is

[AtariDatacenter]

And the date is "911". 09/11/01.

Re:What today really is

[kilgore_47]

Shock ... then grief ... then anger...

...to continue...

then hatred.... then unity...

Seriously, this event puts 99% of american's in the same camp. Everyone seems to "support W" on this. Tragedy brings us together as a nation, for better or for worse. And if the U.S. is successfull is exacting some sort of revenge, the credit will undoubtedly fall (at least somehwhat) to GWB.

Canada Status

[gbr]

All Canadian Airports are shutdown, except for flights that are already in the air. They are providing landing for those planes.

The Canadian/US border is closed.

Canadian Military is on alert, and miltary police are in key locations.

Toronto Stock Exchange is closed.

White House evacuated, but NOT destroyed

[TDScott]

At time of writing, the White House is still intact, despite a misleading header on Netscape.com. It's been evacuated (and thus 'hit' as in 'hindered'), but has NOT been destroyed.

(Disclaimer: IANANS - I Am Not A News Service)

Lots of Info at Yahoo

[bahtama]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yaho o.com/h/ts/nm/?u - Tons of AP articles

Rights

[www.sorehands.com]

We go through airport security to protect us. Well, I guess our rights being trounced on did nothing to protect us. The metal detectors in government buildings did nothing to keep those planes out.

Maybe the next time, people will question, "are having our rights trampled on really giving us security?"

Re:Rights

[Jeremi]

Well, I guess our rights being trounced on did nothing to protect us.

Well, to be fair, we can't say how many potential terrorist hijaakings were never carried out because the potential perpetrators figured they wouldn't get away with it.

Having said that, a more effective way of avoiding terrorism would be foreign policies that don't treat other countries as if they exist merely to serve our commercial needs.

Re:Rights

[7dragon]

EXACTLY!
Our rights have been trampled AND WE PUT UP WITH IT.

Who wants to make a bet that martial law and THE SUSPENSION OF OUR CONSTITUTION will be attempted.

Although, I believe that even during the Civil War, Lincoln's suspension of the Constitution was illegal.

But, if you don't have a 2nd Amendment protecting your firearms ownership, who the hell can stop it.

More police! They'll protect us...
...NOT!

Re:Rights

[MikeBabcock]

Just in case you're claiming that being allowed to bring guns to work or on a plane would have helped, how?

Re:Rights

[Skip666Kent]

You 'guess' wrong. You're an idiot. There could well have been pilots involved, who could very easily have infiltrated over time. Chances are also very high that hundreds of simultaneous hijack attempts took place, knowing full well that only a few would ultimately succeed.

The 'rights' that you're sniveling so self-righteously about were earned and fought for by others, and will have to be earned and fought for time and again.

Don't even pretend to have the slightest idea what 'freedom' and 'liberty' and 'rights' really cost. When you are called upon to pay, THEN you will begin to know.

Re:Rights

[David Hume]

We go through airport security to protect us. Well, I guess our rights being trounced on did nothing to protect us. The metal detectors in government buildings did nothing to keep those planes out.

Maybe the next time, people will question, "are having our rights trampled on really giving us security?"

Realistically, that is not the conclusion the vast majority of people are going to come to. I suspect you know that, and are afraid, with very good reason, of the result

The vast majority of people are going to conclude that obviously metal detectors at airports, etc., are NOT enough. That if, in the interest of safety, searching all luggage, body searches, hell, cavity searches are necessary, then so be it. And if you don't like it? You don't have to fly.

Please understand, I am neither advocating nor endorsing that view. I am making a factual prediction. Expect American society to be a LOT more security conscious, a lot more closed, and for civil liberties to suffer.

Re:Rights

[susano_otter]

Not to mention the fact that as private companies, the Airlines can certainly impose a wide range of security restrictions on their customers. Nothing in the Constitution prevents someone from saying "I'll gladly do business with anyone who willingly submits to a full cavity body search".

Hell, there's whole subsets of prostitution with that exact business model!

Good summary/snippets page

[gimbo]

This page has a good summary list of news snippets from various sources, and it's updated fairly regularly:

http://www.gweep.net/~leaf/wtc.txt

News from Maryland

[strredwolf]

Here's the latest from Maryland, which is "right next door" to DC:

* Maryland is tightening security all throught the state.
* AMTRAK Baltimore Penn Station is shut down.
* BWI Airport is accepting landings only, no flights out.
* All schools are closing, and Annapolis's (state capital) MD State Circle (state capital) is closed to all but emergency traffic.
* State Police are asking folks to limit phone use, both landline and cell.

Hysteria

[FFFish]

PLEASE Please please try to avoid getting hysterical about this. I'm finding message boards filled with frothing hatred, wanting bloody revenge against entire countries.

Don't escalate this into war. There are no winners if it goes to war. We'll all just end up discovering that the terrosits do nukes. Some major American city will be vapourized in re-retaliation.

And get in touch with your State and Federal representatives. Protest any movement toward restricting your personal freedoms -- because they are going to lock you down. Protest any over-aggression -- because you will pay when the terrorists re-retaliate.

Time is NOT of the essence! Insist that things move carefully and cautiously. The world is in a delicate situation for the next few months. Treat it like a fragile, crystal bowl... and don't drop it.

Re:Hysteria

[M. Silver]

I'm finding message boards filled with frothing hatred, wanting bloody revenge against entire countries.

Not just countries. There was a caller on one of the stations I flipped past (DirecTV swore it was the Senate channel, but nobody was doing their regular programming, excepting the Weather Channel, whose weatherfolks are probably saying "And the weather on the East Coast looks like... oh, who cares, nobody there is watching *me* anyway") explaining that we should get all the Muslims out of the US. Now, maybe she was completely clueless and didn't realize that not all of them are here on visas, y'know? Heck, all the Muslims I know were born here.

Re:Hysteria

[tringstad]

I'd agree with you that people need to stop getting hysterical about this, as it hinders clear and intelligent thinking. But as for not escalating this into a war, I'm not sure that's a good idea.

If it is possible to _prove_ that a certain country is responsible for this, it will be practically necessary to put a hurting on them, or there could potentially be far worse problems down the line. Just like dealing with the bullies in High School.

First off, if nothing were done in retaliation, then you are sending a clear signal to the terrorists that they can get away with it, and they'll likely progress onto worse behavior. Secondly, other would-be terrorist groups would see that the first group got away with what happened, and would be encouraged to try it themselves.

No, there won't be any winners. But the goverment is going to be under a lot of pressure to be sure that there aren't anymore incidents like this, and serious retaliation is likely going to be the best answer. The most important thing is to be sure that we retaliate against the right people.

And as for protesting any movement toward restricting your personal freedoms, I couldn't agree more. However, it's too bad most people don't care enough to even vote.

-Tommy

Re:Hysteria

[Col. Panic]

Be realistic. They - whoever "they" are - have destroyed the WTC and part of the Pentagon. That means war - seriously. Bush said we will "hunt down" those responsible and he meant it, to be sure.

I am somewhat pacifistic in nature, but these are acts of war and will be met accordingly.

Re:Hysteria

[YKnot]

Please do not let the situation escalate. I have read numerous messages which express fear of exactly this: World War III. Please keep calm. I know that this is hard to do and I would like to express that, although I certainly can not put myself into the situation of an American citizen, I am honestly terrified and deeply shocked. PLEASE do not react in a way to put the world at risk.

Re:Hysteria

[Omnifarious]

The only way to prevent attacks like this is to be a nice country, and to make sure that anybody who ever does something like this is shortly in very serious pain. We haven't done much of the first, and should possibly rethink how we deal with the world. The second is absolutely necessary for our continued freedom.

As Teddy Roosevelt said "Walk softly and carry a big stick."

Re:Hysteria

[mblase]

Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War.

And, at the opposite extreme of the evolutionary scale, army ants. Your point?

Re:Hysteria

[debrain]

Yes, I'm sure that killing hundreds if not thousands of a repressed society that knowingly breeds fanatics would only breed more suicidal fanatics. Fanatics and freedom and security: choose two. The price of freedom is eternal vigilence - in this we will see the price of freedom, and the choice of the democratic countries to undermine that freedom and return to a draconian culture for the sake of security. (Fanatics are a constant here; few, if any, real actions have been taken to prevent fanatics.)

Re:Is this true?

[TGK]

No it is not as far as I know, true. Fires have been reported on the National Mall including the OLD Executive Office Building (which is easily confused by those not familiar with Washington's building names with the White House).

I've heard that the WTC has collapsed from several sources and that the Pentagon has undergone a similar structural failure as well. any confirmation on these? Images?

Didn't tom clancy write about this?

[MikeLRoy]

I don't remember which book of his it was, but it started with a plane hitting the capitol building, and ended with biological attacks against the US.

Thank goodness i'm canadian.

Re:Didn't tom clancy write about this?

[IIH]

I don't remember which book of his it was, but it started with a plane hitting the capitol building,

It was called Executive Orders and the comparasion between today and the first chapter of the book is frightening.

(First chapter is about a passagner plane from Japan being hijacked and blown up in captiol building.)

World Trade Live Account

[CritterNYC]

I can see where the towers of the trade center used to be from my bedroom on 14th St. I saw just after the second plane hit and just after the 1st tower fell. I watched the 2nd tower fall. One of my friends is still missing. I'm trying to keep myself busy. You can see pictures on my site.

I'd estimate the death toll at betwen 20 and 50 thousand here. I believe approximately 40 thousand people work in the entire world trade complex and the attacks seem to be timed for just when everyone got work. I used to work in Tower 2, 15th Floor.

I'll try and get a webcam up, too.

Re:World Trade Live Account

[MikeBabcock]

Mirrored on my mirror page if your page gets too busy. I'm trying to mirror more sites about this. Please pass me any URLs to live video that I can put on our Real Media server.

Webcam showing Pentagon building burning

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.camcentral.com/camviewer.asp?script=sta te&item=WashingtonDC&page=1&id=7464

A state of war, but with whom ?

[beanerspace]

It's clear, by now, that we're in a state of war. But unlike Perl Harbor, where the enemy was easily identifiable, we now must figure out who's responsible.

I've always felt terrorists were chicken-shits. I've got friends and relatives who work both in the Trade Center, and the Pentagon. Regular family people. Moms with kids in school. Dads who surf about /. Little kids on field trips.

Terrorist == Cowards

HANGUP IF YOU'RE ON A DIALUP IN MARYLAND!!!

[strredwolf]

State police have asked folks to limit phone usage in the state of Maryland. Please limit your useage, and tune into local TV stations (2, 11, 13) for more information.

Re:The really eerie thing is...

[merlin_jim]

It may be redundant, but I don't care... I definitely agree. Funny does not apply.

Taleban, Arafat condemn

[riggwelter]

Reported on CBS MarketWatch: the Taleban ambassador to Pakistan has condemned this.

I'm watching BBC News 24, and Arafat has also condemned this, saying he was deeply shocked.

San Francisco news.

[juuri]

* One plane on the way to SF is down near Pittsburg (Flight 193)

* TransAmerica building closed.

* Public buildings closed.

* Schools closed.

* Police in a high state of alert.

* Bridges ARE open.

* Public Transit IS open.

* All airports are of course closed.

Cancelled Blood Drive Here...

[Conesus]

I'd donate blood of course, but unfortunatly, at my high school, they have just put in a lock-down for the day, and have cancelled the blood drive that was happening from the beginning of this morning.

Just consider the irony.

Re:Is this true?

[OblongPlatypus]

There was one story reporting an "unrelated fire" in the White House. Sounds implausible though.

attn moderators.

[imipak]

PLEASE, mod up parent; this is spot on.

United Airlines crash

[FFFish]

United Airlines 757 has crashed. This is the one that was "missing," not the Pennsylvania plane. Looks to be in Colorado. :-(

It gets eerier:

[symplegades]

The UN 4 Kids site: What is the International Day of Peace? The International Day of Peace is observed each year on the opening day of the regular session of the United Nations General Assembly.

According to the Boston Metro, today is International Peace Day.

-Rene

Mexico

[zpengo]

Border with Mexico was just shut down.

MIRROR site with PICS and VIDEO

[ender-]

http://www.spack.nu/wtc

here is a mirror with pics that seem to have been taken from a digital camera.

As well as video of a plane hitting a tower and one of the towers collapsing.

I wish my server luck...

ender-

More on Taleban/Bin-Laden

[riggwelter]

The Taleban have said that Osama Bin-Laden could not have been involved in this (BBC News 24)

Remember that groups with an interest here are at some point going to be queuing up to claim responsibility (the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine already have - CBS MarketWatch) so use a small pinch of salt for that one...

I hope...

[joss]

There will be a lot of pressure for punitive revenge attacks against suspected parties.

Doubtless this will happen, it is inconceivable that the US will allow this to go unpunished. For instance, after the attacks on several US embassies in Africa, the US bombed one of the only two pharmaceutical factories in Sudan on faulty intelligence info. Unfortunately it turned out that this factory was legitimate and this just led to the death of many innocent workers, plus many further deaths as a result of a lack of medicine.

When these revenge attacks occur, more innocent civilians will die. I just hope that Americans remember that the bombing of innocent civilians is wrong even when they are foreigners. I don't hold out much hope of this - when the revenge bombing occurs, I expect it will be greeted with jubliation, even though there will be a tenuous connection at best between those who die and those responsible for the atrocities in New York and Washington. It is appropriate to feel anger towards those responsible for the murder of innocents, but don't let that anger reduce you to "their" level.

Not "hysteria", "state of emergency"

[mblase]

Of *course* they're going to lock us down. Airports are halted across the country, transportation at the attack sites is paralyzed, and communication there is impossible. Right now, don't expect to fly anywhere anytime soon. This isn't an attack on personal freedom; it's practical safety measures. The first plane that hit the WTC was going from Boston to Los Angeles; another plane could come from *anywhere*.

The terrorists won't "re-retaliate" for a long, long time -- they know we're on alert now, any more "sneak attacks" would be futile. The thing to do now is make sure no more planes can be used as bombs, then find out who's responsible, and then DEMAND that he be dealt with. Right now, I don't give a crap if his host country wants to extradite him or not. If a government is going to protect whoever's responsible for this, then they're complicit, and they're inviting war. Not hysteria; a practial and well-earned response.

No one's talking about locking the entire country down with martial law yet, if that's what you're worried about. But some restrictions are very necessary, and anyone with a sense of the big picture should be all for it.

Re:Not "hysteria", "state of emergency"

[FFFish]

I'm talking about personal freedoms lockdown -- goodbye encryption, goodbye privacy. This is the administration's opportunity to make some giant strides in the anti-freedom direction they've taken over the past decade.

Re: terrorist retaliation -- point is, they will retaliate, and will up the ante each time. Last time, it was a car bomb under the WTC. This time, the destruction of the WTC. Next, a nuke in the heart of NYC.

It's necessary to think long-term. The terrorist organizations will wait a decade if they need to. Time is immaterial.

Re:The Pittsburgh Crash UPDATE

[ackthpt]

38 passengers, 7 crew, Flight 93 from Newark to SFO.

God be with them.

Re:say goodbye to civil liberties....

[glitch!]

wanna bet we get a suspension of our "inalienable" rights?????

I think the solution to this kind of attack is to short-circuit the kidnap/hijack attempt before it gets going. Some years ago, I have resolved to practice what I preach.

I am not in the practice of picking up hitchhikers, but if I did, and he threatened me, I have resolved to harm him permanently. Preferably with less harm to me, but if I have to hit a concrete overpass column at 80 mph, so be it.

While the danger of a hijacking is exceedingly small, I am a pilot, and would sooner crash into a hill or lake than allow someone to force me to harm even more people.

I have told my wife that if I am ever kidnapped, or held with threat of violence (same thing, I guess), she should assume I will not survive the incident, and concentrate on killing the kidnappers. Call in the snipers. And if I am not bound and gagged, I will be the loudest one there, shouting "KILL THEM! KILL THEM!".

Kidnappers, terrorists, and the like only succeed because of the miserable cowards negotiate with them, and allow them to use violence as if it were currency.

Hmmm

[zpengo]

It's times like this that make me glad we have a Republican and a Texan in the White House. If there's ass to be kicked, he'll see to it.

I would hate to see Al Gore's response to this.

Re:Hmmm

[Nonesuch]

Like it or not, the majority of the people Texas has executed were actually guilty of the crime for which they were put to death.

Both Republicans and Democrats talk shit, but at least we now have a president who is willing to walk the walk.

Re:Is this true?

[hearingaid]

According to CTV, the Pentagon's west wing collapsed. They haven't shown any images other than billowing smoke around the Pentagon, though.

Both towers of the World Trade Centre have definitely collapsed. That made the TV. Many times repeatedly.

Re:say goodbye to civil liberties....

[fnorgby]

"this is neither the time nor the place, and your selfishness is disgusting."

Your obtuseness is even more disgusting. Compromising our way of life, which our government has shown its eagerness to perpetrate upon us, is just what terrorists want to have happen.

It's perfectly reasonable to be shocked and horrified at the tragedy and STILL REMAIN VIGILANT against further government intrusion.

Do not presume to tell me when I can and cannot protect my rights.

No.

[einhverfr]

Biological and chemical terrorism is something which is a bit of a boogey-man. We will probably never see a devestating attack using these means because they are simply too costly. However, the threat of a threat could be effective (in other words a claim is more important than the reality).

Now, there are a few things that have occurred to me about these events:

1: The planes must have been flown by the terrorists into the buildings. I have a hard time believing that a pilot of an airliner would be at the helm and be a part of such an attack.

2: This is an attack which would have been very difficult for a small organization to pull off. A large support organization would have been necessary for the necessary piloting expertise and intellegence work. Although this could have been state-sponsored, there is no reason at this time to think that it was.

3: One cannot adequately protect against suicide terrorists. There are too many otherwise inocuous items which can be, under the right circumstances, lethal weapons. The only defense against suicide terrorists is attack the morale of their organizations.

The reason why I suspect that this attack originated in the Middle East is that they are the only region of the world which a) has suffered enough at the hands of Europe and America to create that sort of response and b) has the resources at their disposal for such an attack. (Yes, I have studied my Middle East history, and a should point out that Britain was probably more a part of the problem than the US, but the US has been the present main player in the region).

IMO, we will eventually have to adopt a different policy toward the OPEC nations which aims to foster their economic independence (and live with the higher oil prices) or come to terms with the fact that low oil prices will be bought with human lives. Terrorism is expensive both in lives of supporters and in material resources, and this attack indicates that we as a country (America) have not adequately targeted the morale and/or finances of the terrorist organizations.

Don't get me wrong. I think that terrorism should be fully prosecuted etc. and I think that people who use innocent victims as weapons against a larger enemy deserve no respect, I think that, for the sake of security, we need to create a comprehensive plan which aims not only at attacking the actual terrorists, but also reducing the support they have from economically powerful people by responding to some of the root economical realities which have fostered terrorism in many areas of the world (but especially the Middle East).

Re:No.

[Ben Hutchings]

1: The planes must have been flown by the terrorists into the buildings. I have a hard time believing that a pilot of an airliner would be at the helm and be a part of such an attack

Two commercial pilots have been reported to have crashed their planes deliberately in recent years - those of SilkAir flight MI-185 on 19th December 1997 and of EgyptAir flight 990 on 31st October 1999 (both still disputed).

Re:No.

[mpe]

A large support organization would have been necessary for the necessary piloting expertise

Apparently little to no piloting expertise would have been needed to hit the WTC.

Re:No.

[einhverfr]

It is not an issue of the very rich, IMO but rather of the middle class or upper middle class. Most terrorism against the US seems to come out of the Middle East, and I believe that there are real economic and historical reasons why this is the case. I feel that if we are to effectively combat that threat, then those root causes need to be addressed.

Re:No.

[Moofie]

Finding examples of suicidal airline pilots is one thing. Finding examples of four, simultaneously suicidal, pilots on American carriers is, well, ridiculous. The planes must have been hijacked, the pilots removed, and the terrorists drove the planes into an Earth-shattering kaboom.

Of course, they don't even KNOW what an Earth-shattering kaboom is...but I'll wager that the US Military is going to educate them very very soon.

Re:No.

[jesser]

Biological and chemical terrorism is something which is a bit of a boogey-man. We will probably never see a devestating attack using these means because they are simply too costly.

But you admitted yourself that the group that crashed planes into buildings today was probably a large organization. Why wouldn't they want to use biological warfare? It may cost more than hijacking a plane, but it can also directly affect a much larger number of people.

Re:No.

[Ben Hutchings]

Sure - I was just saying that it's unreasonable to claim that a commercial pilot would never do something like that.

Stock market crashed today

[mblase]

*ba-ding bing*

In a more Slashdotty vein, the CNN, MSNBC, and ABCNews web sites were all submitted to a relentless DDOS attack this morning, and it appears the people coordinating them are getting more and more creative....

(Sorry. Humor helps me cope.)

Rumour

[mwillems]

London evacuating? I have heard that nowhere else.

Michael

Canada send it's deepest sympathies and support.

[canning]

Because we are so physically close to the United States it's so hard not to be effected by the events that are happening and has happened today. Our company has large office in New York, New Jersey and all across North America and we are praying that everyone is those offices are unharmed. We are getting very little information about our employee's whereabouts.

The subway platforms are packed with people trying to leave the city. The mood is very sombre and some are in tears.

Again, I think I can speak for every Canadian when I send our deepest sympathies .

How could modern building collapse like that?

[imipak]

Anyone know about construction details of the WTC? How the hell could they collapse?? Clearly it was the fire that caused it... surely it would have been fire-rated to, like, NOT collapse in the event of a fire?? Anyone shed any light on this?

BTW, big thanks to Slashdot: Taco, you did the right thing.

Re:How could modern building collapse like that?

[Johnny Starrock]

Most buildings arn't developed to withstand aircraft impacts. The WTC was a concrete re-enforced building. The initial impact would have stripped away a good deal of the concrete, and then the fire did the rest.

As an aside, my brain has ceased functioning on any comprehensible emotional level. How do you cope?

Re:How could modern building collapse like that?

[mpe]

Anyone know about construction details of the WTC? How the hell could they collapse?? Clearly it was the fire that caused it... surely it would have been fire-rated to, like, NOT collapse in the event of a fire??

The initial impact and explosion caused damage right through the the building. Seriously weakining many floors.

Update.

[juuri]

* SF is now on a stage 2 alert.

* Pacific stock exchange closed.

* Hiway 4 closed to tanker accident.

* No traffic near Oakland airport.

* CalTrans ordered all employees off bridges.

* Extra police security on all bridges and security on public transit.

As far as the phone lines go.......

[Delpino]

The company I work for does satellite phones, and we are currently activating lots of them for the emergency response groups in New York and DC. Still, do please try to keep off the ground lines.

Continuous Video Feed

[marcop]

I have been watching a continuous video feed for the past hour from http://www.sky.com/skynews/home/

BTW, they www.sky.com runs Solaris. So does washingtonpost.com - which was one of the few sites that was up. I don't promote Solaris - but it is interesting.

GO TO WORK!!!

[jafac]

This is a terrorist attack.

Its main purpose was to strike fear into the hearts of Americans, and to cause our economy to collapse. If everyone is afraid, then the economy WILL collapse.

The emergency workers are busy. The military is obviously busy. Go to work and conduct your business as well as possible. Unless you are working in one of the obviously dangerous areas.
They only beat us if we let our fear win.

I'm not a soldier. I'm not a fireman or paramedic. I'm not a police man. But I'm going to work today, and I'm testing software, and I'm making sure that my little cog in the big machine keeps turning.

Now, we're going to see what kind of a leader dubbya is. I have very grave doubts about his ability to deal with this situation rationally - think martial law - think more raids in Iraq - think more raids in Afghanistan. Think Arab Americans being rounded up (I'm sorry, but you know this will happen). There isn't much we can do about those things other than keep a cool head, and do your job as best as you can.

It's not a "fire"

[mblase]

"Fire" damage didn't do it. If you didn't see the video of the second impact, a Boeing 737 large enough to carry 60-70 people smashed right into the side of it, and an explosion came out the other side. That's going to cause a *lot* of internal structural damage. And once the top floors start to collapse, their weight and force punches right through the floors below.

Building codes aren't designed with events like this in mind, I'm afraid.

Re:It's not a "fire"

[FFFish]

Boeing 737 is large enough to carry *several hundred* people. These are the jets that fly the Transalantic. They're *big*

Try websites of non-american newspapers/TV channel

[lythari]

The Sydney Morning Herald has info and pictures. And the site also hasn't been /.ed.

Re:Just thought I'd share this.

[Skip666Kent]

New York the 'city of God'? I don't think so.

History repeats itself?

[NoInfo]

The last time something this big happened, someone ended up getting nuked.

Re:An Act of War

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

There is only one appropriate response to this: All out war.[...]I'm not sure I'm even ruling out a nuclear response.

Honestly, I tend to agree. But as with capital punishment, we need to make absolutely certain we know who to make war ON.

The idea of turning terrorist-sponsoring countries into a gigantic glass parking lot with nukes does have some appeal, but remember that even in fairly radical countries there are going to be plenty of innocent populations that had nothing to do with terrorism.

Personally, I think what's needed is something a bit more surgical than nukes. What needs to be destroyed is the political structure that fosters and supports the popularity of cowardly terrorist actions through propoganda and other cultural manipulation. That means particular individuals and organizations, and THEIR attendant facilities, with as little damage as possible to the potentially-sympathetic innocent, who will hopefully be left to take over where the radical freaks once ruled. If we just bomb the crap out of the whole area, we're just going to make MORE desperate enemies with plenty of popular support among survivors of our attacks who otherwise might have been sympathetic to us.

There are also concerns on the domestic front - If all-out war pops out, will we see a repeat of WW-II era policies? "Loose lips sink ships"? (Better do something about that Internet thing!) Internment camps for USA citizens of IranIraqAfghjaniPakistani descent? Even more corporate welfare to suppliers of military supplies, such as munitions (which, I remind readers, includes cryptography and other "intellectual property" which has already spawned several out-of-control laws in the US).

In short, what *I* hope happens is a well-conducted, very careful investigation to identify the organizations responsible for these acts, and careful, deliberate, surgical, but firm, thorough, and final wiping off of the face of the earth of those specific organizations....

Terrorists just going easy?

[MattW]

And you think what, that terrorists could have nuked this time, and were just going easy wiping out the WTC?

First of all, there's no one to go to war with. You can expect, however, that if it turns out a nation is harboring terrorists against justice, action will be taken.

Second of all, unless we are isolationists again, we're going to piss someone off somewhere. It is the unenviable consequence of world leadership. Not retaliating is not protection against further attacks. If we identify a perpetrator, there will be awful consequences.

Certainly, we must be cautious. We should take things slowly. Any response should be well-considered and deliberate...but not pacifistic.

Also, for those of you who live with an arabian population, or any other population likely to be targetted by irrational retaliation, don't let others take their anger out on other Americans, regardless of their ethnic origins. Arabian-Americans are Americans, too.

Yahoo's up

[hearingaid]

from Reuters on Yahoo!:

Tuesday September 11 11:12 AM ET

Massive Attacks Destroy World Trade Center, Hit Pentagon

Photos
Reuters Photo
Audio/Video World Trade Center Hit By Planes (Reuters)

By Alan Elsner, National Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Three hijacked planes crashed into major U.S. landmarks on Tuesday, destroying both of New York's mighty twin towers, hitting the Pentagon (news - web sites) in Washington and plunging the United States into unprecedented chaos and panic.

Loss of life was expected to be catastrophic from the collapse of the giant towers of the World Trade Center where many thousands of people work. The two enormous edifices both fell in a huge cloud of smoke and fire two hours after the initial impacts.

New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (news - web sites) said there had been a ''tremendous number of lives lost'' in the attacks on his city.

Another plane crashed near Pittsburgh. It was not clear if this was another attempted hijacking.

Hospitals in New York were overwhelmed with patients as a massive cloud billowed into the blue skies over Manhattan where the city skyline had been dramatically and permanently altered.

``Hundreds of people are burned from head to toe,'' said Dr. Steven Stern at St. Vincent's Hospital in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of lower Manhattan.

``The whole of lower Manhattan is coated in half an inch of dust,'' Reuters reporter Daniel Sternoff said.

BUSH CUTS SHORT VISIT

President Bush (news - web sites) cut short a visit to Florida and rushed back to Washington to face the greatest crisis of his young presidency.

He called the deliberate aerial assaults an ``apparent terrorist attack'', and ordered a full-scale investigation. Early speculation about the source of the attack centered on Saudi-born guerrilla leader Osama Bin-Laden.

It was the most dramatic and deadly attack on the U.S. mainland in modern history. The attacks forced the evacuation of all government buildings in Washington, including the White House and other tall buildings around the country, cut cell phone communications on the East Coast and grounded all commercial planes in the United States.

Early reports said all three planes used in the attacks were hijacked, one of them from Boston and one from Washington. It was not immediately known who flew the planes and what happened to them.

The day of horror began around 9 a.m. in New York when the first plane plowed into the south tower of New York's World Trade Center, as thousands of workers were streaming into the building to begin their day.

It opened a huge hole near the top of the building. Two hours later, the whole building in which thousands of people collapsed on itself in a huge cloud of smoke and fire.

TV stations caught the second plane plowing into the second of the twin towers, exploding in a fire ball a few minutes after the first impact. That building caved in about an hour after the first.

Shortly afterward, a third plane crashed into or near the Pentagon in Washington, throwing people off their feet inside the building and setting off a massive fire.

Not helpful language

[imipak]

CNN showing footage of arabs celebrating.

This is what frightens me about the US response. On past performance, there's a tendency to keep the great American moron^w public happy by randomly attacking Muslims, or Arabs. The people celebrating are Palestinians, who been on the end of activity that, were it performed by any other nation, would be condemned as warcrimes. Israel routinely kills non-combatant civilians in retaliation for attacks. This is not the way to stop people who already hate your guts, stop hating you! There is NO MILITARY SOLUTION to this.

Those of you (Americans) who try to be thoughtful about this, /PLEASE/ try to avoid knee-jerk "It's the ay-rabs!" jingoism. I realise that revenge must be the first thought in many people's minds. Try to remember, the people who did this WERE ON THE PLANES and they're ALREADY DEAD. Modulo Bin Laden or whoever.

Now, offing him would get my support...

Re:Not helpful language

[FFFish]

Their culture is NOT like ours.

They've been immersed in war for a couple generations. Their civilians are killed in terrorist attacks all the time. They believe that kamikaze revenge is a ticket to heaven.

Don't attack them for their cultural differences. Just because you see some of them celebrating for the camera, doesn't mean they're bad people. Not the man-in-the-street civilian, at any rate.

The people who planned and executed the attack, on the other hand...

Re:Not helpful language

[dvdeug]

> Don't attack them for their cultural differences. Just because you see some of them celebrating for the camera, doesn't mean they're bad people.

You celebrate the death of thousands of innocents, then you're bad. I don't care about your culture; it's wrong. Part of morality (as dictated by Betham, Kant, Rand, Jesus, Budda) is understanding that we're all human and that murder is wrong.

The FBI

[vandemar]

I wonder if this could have been averted if the FBI put their resources into preventing terrorism instead of things like Carnivore, and arresting Russian programmers. Granted Carnivore is supposed to prevent things like these, but terrorists that have the ability to coordinate an attack of this scale won't be using conventional email to communicate anyway. I hope they don't try to use this to outlaw encryption.

The army had known about it?

[boky]

Unconfirmed yet, but it seems that here in Europe (Slovenia) people have been hearing US army planes flying above their heads all day long (before the attacks).

Call me paranoid, but I think the army knew.

Terrorist DDOS attacks as well, or what?

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

I'm still having problems getting news from most normal sites, and we are just barely holding up.

Is this just sheer volume of normal interest, or is the implication here that there's some sort of DOS going on?

I hope not. I really DON'T want any "Emergency Executive Orders" dropping draconian regulations on the 'net in the USA...

Who did it?

[interstar]

Quote from the ...

"But Professor Paul Rogers, of Bradford University's peace department, warned against assuming Middle East extremists were behind the tragedy.

"We've been here before. With Oklahoma, everybody assumed it was Middle East [terrorists], then it turned out to be home-grown Timothy McVeigh," he said. "Again with the pipe bomb in Atlanta, it
turned out to be domestic."

Alternate live news source

[emc3]

For those of you (like myself) who don't have a TV or radio in your cube, and who are bemoaning that there's not enough bandwidth for CNN to serve the entire country simultaneously, try CNET Radio. No pictures, but good radio coverage.

Some good news -- the FAA has just reported that *all* commercial aircraft are now accounted for (there were about 50 in question), and have reported no problems, and are en route to nearby airports.

Weak airport security in the USA.

[Nonesuch]

I've been flying more often than usual for the past year, about every other month, and each time I've noticed that airport security has gotten more and more complacent -- at O'hare and Midway I routinely board with my spyderco and leatherman in my carry on, and I've only ever once been challenged in 20 some flights, and that was while catching a short prop flight from Virginia to Pittsburg...

Just about year ago I boarded a flight from Detroit to Chicago with not just my usual sharp objects, but also a power screwdriver, set of Motorola trunking radios and their charger, and assorted spare batteries, all in my carry-on. Didn't get a second glance from security.

Those days are over.

Signifigance of today?

[MWoody]

I can't find any signifigance of today's date, as a possible explanation. The Oklahoma City bombing was the anniversary of Waco or somesuch; perhaps there is a similar connection here?

"Today in history" sites:
http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Humanities/History/Thi s_ Day_in_History/

I can't find a good list of common Palestinian holidays, though...

Here's the biggest list I could find (from http://www.scopesys.com/anyday/ )

1609 Henry Hudson discovers Manhattan island
1709 English, Dutch & Austrians defeat French in Battle of Malplaquet
1773 Benjamin Franklin writes "There never was a good war or bad peace."
1777 Battle of Brandywine, Pa; Americans lose to British
1786 Annapolis Convention to determine interstate commerce
1789 Alexander Hamilton appointed Secretary of the Treasury
1814 Battle of Lake Champlain, NY; Americans defeat British
1839 1st Canadian track & field meet held (Caer Howell Grounds)
1850 "Swedish Nightingale" Jenny Lind gives 1st US concert
1852 Olympia Columbian is 1st newspaper published north of Columbia R
1853 1st electric telegraph in use, Merchant's Exchange to Pt Lobos
1875 1st newspaper cartoon strip
1881 Triple landslides bury Elm Switz
1885 Moses Hopkins, named minister to Liberia
1886 Mayflower (US) beats Galatea (England) in 7th America's Cup
1889 Start of the Sherlock Holmes adventure "The Crooked Man" (BG)
1893 Bronx Gas & Electric Company opens on Frisby & Tremont Ave
1910 1st commercially successful electric bus line opens (Hollywood)
1912 Phila A's Eddie Collins steals 6 bases in 1 game
1918 Boston Red Sox beat Chicago Cubs, 4 games to 2 in 15th World Series
1919 US marines invade Honduras
1922 British mandate of Palestine begins
1923 After a single, Red Sox Howard Ehmke retires the next 27 Yanks
1923 The ZR-1 (biggest active dirigible) flies over NY's tallest skyscraper, the Woolworth Tower
1926 Aloha Tower dedicated in Honolulu
1926 US defeats France for their 7th straight Davis Cup championship
1926 Yanks' Bob Meusel ties record with 3 sacrifice flies
1927 Babe Ruth hits 50th of 60 homers
1928 1st TV drama-WGY's The Queens Messenger
1929 SF Mayor Rolph inaugurates new pedestrian traffic light system
1930 Stomboli volcano (Sicily) throws 2-ton basaltic rocks 2 miles
1935 US captures Davis Cup for 7th straight year
1936 A's pitcher Horace Lisenbee gives up 26 hits in a game
1936 FDR dedicates Boulder Dam, now known as Hoover Dam
1941 Charles Lindbergh, charges "the British, the Jewish & the Roosevelt administration" are trying to get the US into WW II
1941 FDR orders any Axis ship found in American waters be shot on sight
1944 FDR & Churchill meet in Canada at the 2nd Quebec Conference
1946 1st mobile long-distance car-to-car telephone conversation
1950 1st typesetting machine to dispense with metal type exhibited
1950 33 die in a train crash in Coshocton Ohio
1950 Dick Tracy TV show sparks uproar concerning violence
1951 Florence Chadwick becomes 1st woman to swim the English Channel from England to France. It takes 16 hours & 19 minutes
1952 West German Chancellor Adenauer signs a reparation pact for Jews
1954 1st Miss America TV broadcast
1956 Cincinnati Red Frank Robinson ties rookie record with his 38th HR
1959 Elroy Face's 22 game win streak ends as Dodgers beat Pirates 5-4
1959 Oriole Jerry Walker pitches 16 inn beating White Sox 1-0
1960 The 17th Olympic games close in Rome
1961 Bob Dylan's 1st NY performance
1962 Beatles cut "Love Me Do" & "PS I Love You"
1964 George Harrison forms Mornyork Ltd music publishing company
1964 Gillette's 20 year contract with MSG & ABC to televise fights for free ends as Dick Tiger defeats Don Fullmer at the Cleve Auditorium
1965 Beatles' "Help!," album goes #1 & stays #1 for 9 weeks
1966 Johnny Miller became the 1st Yank to hit a HR on his 1st at bat
1967 US Surveyor 5 makes 1st chemical analysis of lunar material
1972 BART begins service with a 26-mi (42-km) line from Oakland to Fremont
1973 Chile's President, Salvador Allende, deposed in a military coup
1974 Cards beat Mets, 4-3, in 25 (7h4m), record 202 plate appearances, Felix Milan & John Milner come to bat 12 times each
1976 Evonne Goolagong loses her 4th straight US Open Final (Evert wins)
1977 Guillermo Vilas beats Jimmy O'Connors wins US Open
1977 TV's Rhoda gets divorced
1982 Chris Evert 6th US open title defeats Hana Mandlikava
1983 Franco Harris becomes 3rd NFL to rush 11,000 yards
1985 Intl Cometary Explorer (ISEE 3) passes Giacobini-Zinner by 7900 km
1985 Pete Rose of the Cin Reds gets career hit 4,192 off Eric Show of San Diego Padres, eclipsing Ty Cobb's record
1986 Dow Jones Industrial Avg suffered biggest 1-day decline ever, plummeting 86.61 points to 1,792.89. 237.57 million shares traded
1988 Sports Aid-jogging to feed the world
1989 Drexel formally pleads guilty to security fraud
1989 KSO-AM in Des Moines Iowa changes call letters to KGGO
1991 "La Toya: Growing Up in the Jackson Family" goes on sale
1991 14 die in a Continental Express commuter plane crash near Houston
---

Re:Signifigance of today?

[kindbud]

Today is the anniversary of the Camp David Accords.

The price

[ajs]

Most of us in the U.S. say, rather glibly, that we're willing to "pay the price" for our freedom. Well, tragic though it was, here it is. If we lived in a police state, this would not be possible. Then again, I don't think there would be much of a country left.

Many have called for a "response". Our responses are, of course, already under way and I have faith that no matter how much I may push back against the expanding power of our TLAs and millitary, they are more than able to flush out the culprits for this attack, and remove their threat. If not, our tax dollars are ill-spent.

However, if we sacrifice one shred of our heritage of freedom because of this, then no matter how much we "respond", we've already lost. In times of peace, it's easy to stand up for our freedom. Today, it takes something more, and I ask all of you to rise to the occasion.

Defend the rights of those who will be attacked because they share skin color with those claiming responsibility. Don't give up fights for our freedom on the Net. Cherish your privacy and even your anonymity. If we can keep level heads through this, we will prove ourselves worthy of our nation and the sacrifice of those before us.

377th Military Support Command Activated

[GMontag]

News from WTOP FM, Manassas/Washington DC

All members of 377th told to report for duty.

VA National Guard Mobilized

There are dead at the Pentagon. NONE OF THE CHILDREN IN THE PENTAGON DAYCARE WERE HARMED (thank G_d).

Nothing new on 2nd suspected hijacked airplane in DC area (I heard the F-16's flying around out here, south of and very near Dulles Intl., I work very close to the NRO HQ). Been up here on the 4th floor of my building looking ;-)

Thretcon B is now in effect in the Military Distrect of Washington/National Capital Region.

Verizon is asking all people to stay off of ANY phone (wireless or landline) in the DC area.

first tower collapse video

[mosch]

http://overtone.org/sass/tower-collapse.mpg

Re:An Act of War

[quartz]

Now that would be a regrettable mistake. If the news sites are correct, these people are Islamic terrorists. They have nothing to lose and death does not scare them. They are organized and your war is not going to stop them. Before your military can find an annihilate them, they can and will do a lot more damage to American cities. War would only kill innocents, it won't touch terrorists the slightest bit.

The planes were full of fuel....

[(H)elix1]

Looking at where those flights were headed -- east coast to west coast, they were all fueled up when they hit their targets. Talk about a mess. Not only did they pick the targets for max psyc damage, but also for max physical damage. I wonder how many managed to get out of the buildings when liquid fire was raining from the upper floors...

Very recent pictures of WTC

[ssimpson]

I was at the World Trade Center on Saturday the 8th of September, 2001....It was my first visit to the States from England and I was in awe at the city and WTC.

Some pictures from the top of and from the outside of the WTC are here: http://www.samsimpson.com/pictures.php?dir=galleri es/newyork/wtc/

Simply unbelievable :(

Slightly offtopic, but needed to be said

[Mtgman]

I think there are benefits to an event like this(I wish it didn't involve disasters of course) but if you look at cnn and their current home page you will see that they did a MAJOR site re-design to get their page to serve easily over their available bandwidth(which is apparently much too small for their regular pages in a case of emergency). For those who still can't get it to load, it is one .jpg about two inches high and three inches wide and about ten or twelve bullet points.

This is a change for the better in my opinion, the news sources have themselves to blame for their high-bandwidth sites which obviously can't cut the mustard when the heat is on.

Steven

NOT Terrorist DDOS attacks, just excess users.

[Nonesuch]

Sheer volume of normal interest.

I'm responsible for some massive infrastructure in both Genuity and Exodus colocation, and both sites are seeing a huge traffic load on all 'news' web sites.

Other non-news web connections seem to be faring fine, the only DDoS is more along the lines of the Slashdot Effect, specific servers are getting many more users than they planned for, and are individually being overloaded.

Re:An Act of War

[ocie]

McVeigh lived in the US, should we nuke ourselves?

Biological warfare

[JabberWokky]

Did they ever explain the small planes that buzzed the white house?

Fact: Terrorists have been found to have bio weapon efforts. That's not saying that they have the actual weapons, but it means that they were trying to get them.

Fact: This was an all out attack. If they had them, they used them.

I packed a suitcase, and am getting several gallons of bottled water. Here in Florida, it'll come in handy in the event of a hurricane, anyway. I'm not bugging out, nor do I plan to... unless people start dying. I'm not alarmist, I don't expect to do anything... my gaming group is coming over tonight as usual. But I will prepare for the worst... if it sounds silly, think how yesterday this would have sounded: "Terrorists will knock down both towers of the World Trade Center, set the Pentagon on fire, and crash four passanger planes within two hours tomorrow morning".

I knew spending weeks in the woods in Scouts / hunting / the SCA would come in handy. ;) (That's a semi-joke, but it does feel good to know that if I *really* have to, I can do a couple months outside of civilization).

--
Evan

Perl Harbor

[Fleet Admiral Ackbar]

But unlike Perl Harbor, where the enemy was easily identifiable...

Larry Wall, riding a camel?

1+1?

[dghcasp]

Dig past the "headline" pages to the "normal" news and find interesting things...

From the Globe and Mail, a story about how 5 days ago the U.S. banned novelist Salman Rushdie from all air travel in the U.S.::

On Thursday, the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority in Washington issued an emergency directive banning Mr. Rushdie from all flights in and out of the United States, reflecting a heightened state of alert.

Same alert? Did they know? Conspiricy theorists, come crawling out of the woodwork...

Full Story on www.globeandmail.com

Correction!372nd Military Police Command Activated

[GMontag]

372nd Military Police Command Activated (not 377th blablabla)

Just after first attack, US Military Aircraft were launched in NY and DC with orders to shoot down any hostile looking aircraft.

Friends of McVeigh

[Fleet Admiral Ackbar]

Do you mean the US Army, which trained McVeigh and 'lost' his records? Or perhaps you mean the ATF, which evacuated the OKC building... hmm... 24 hours before the bombing.

Re:Canada send it's deepest sympathies and support

[MikeBabcock]

Yes, we are in pain for humanity that this could happen at all. We are looking at the possible beginnings of war that touches us again. We do not want or need that.

video of plane crashing into tower. please mirror

[mosch]

http://overtone.org/sass/plane.crash.in.wtc-news.m pg Please mirror this.

Re:My thoughts..

[MikeBabcock]

I'm waiting for major US cities to become fortresses; as the US realises that they are no longer impenetrable, air defence systems and rapid-deployment strike systems will slowly become the norm for Washington, New York, SF, etc.

Missle-defence? Maybe ... but we need a way to defend ourselves against people on the inside too.

Television 1. Internet 0.

[SomePoorSchmuck]

Re:CNN Slowly Coming Back

it's a good measure of both how dependent we have become upon the internet and how woefully inadequate it still is as a large-scale information outlet for important events [things other than pictures of Movie Star Julia Roberts eating her favorite B&J ice cream].

From The Register:

17.40 GMT: It would appear the immediate threat from more terrorist threats is over, although the States has gone into a state of panic. Hundreds of buildings across the US, viewed as possible targets, have been evacuated. All airports have been shut down. Borders shut. The flood of calls into New York has jammed switchboards. Companies are setting staff home early.

One person put the World Trade Center up for sale on eBay but the sick joke was removed almost immediately. News Web sites have started popping back up as the initial demand lifts and the blame seems to have fallen on notorious terrorist Usama Bin Laden.

The number of dead and injured remain impossible to predict except that they will probably be in the thousands. Press conferences are due to take place in the next few hours.

16.37PM GMT Thousands of people are feared dead following suicide plane-crash attacks on the World Trade Center, in New York today.

Twenty-five thousand people were thought to be working in the twin towers of World Trade Center in New York at the time of the kamikaze assaults. Both of the 110-storey towers collapsed within two hours of the onslaught.

A third plane has crashed into the Pentagon, Washington, part of which has collapsed, and a fourth plane has crashed south east of Pittsburgh. A fifth plane is reported to be heading towards Washington DC, according to Sky News.

American Airlines has confirmed that it has lost two planes with a total of 156 people on board, one from Boston and one from Washington DC.

Up to eight airplanes are said to have been hijacked,
US air authorities say that three planes are unaccounted for.

Yasser Arafat has condemned the attacks, but current speculation still puts the blame on Palestianian separatists. All Israeli embassies in the US have been evacuated as has the UK stock exchange. Part of the Pentagon has also collapsed. All civilian planes in the US are grounded.

Net News
The incredible spate of terrorist attacks has knocked most the world's news sites off the Internet as people tried to find out the latest news.

CNN has been offline ever since the news that a second plane had crashed into the World trade Center. The BBC has fared little better, which the site now inaccessible. MSNBC was available for a short while but seems to have disappeared as well following the posting of a video of the second plane crashing.

[16.50PM GMT: Most news sites have now put up a simple front page with a list of stories in order to bring themselves back online]

The news that a bomb has gone off just outside the Pentagon and a third explosion near the World Trade Center have only added to the problems. All UK newspaper sites are struggling with demand, working at an incredibly slow rate. Only The Guardian and the FT are offering accessible information as we write.

The World Trade Centre Association Web site has also vanished, and access to any New York Webcams is impossible. Tony Blair has cancelled his speech at the TUC to fly back to London.

The only news sites that seem to have weathered the demand so far are the Press Association's Ananova site and Sky TV's Sky.com, although that too is having trouble now. Ananova reckons eight planes in total have been hijacked. All planes in US airspace have been ordered to land as soon as possible.

It seems that the Internet has failed in its first truly hard test as a news disseminator. The best coverage is coming from the usual TV outlets.

More as things go on.

Re:Killing fellow country-men

[kilgore_47]

I know for a fact that there is a sizable population of Palestinian and Middle Eastern immigrants living and working in NYC. :(

First off, they probably consider any of their people living in the evil-empire-usa traitors to the cause.
Second, these guys are suicide bombers (i'm guessing here, but someone had to fly those planes so I think its a safe guess) anyway. I'm sure they think they are shedding blood for some magical entity like 'god' or something and a few of their own people mixed into the carnage probably doesn't even bother them.

structural details from reasonably informed source

[Preposterous Coward]

My brother does construction mgmt for a big real estate company that builds and manages large office towers worldwide. I spoke to him this morning and he explained the situation, as best he can assess it secondhand:

High-rise buildings are built to control the spread of fires for long enough to allow people to evacuate safely. There is no capability, however, for fighting a truly large fire on a high floor. In modern steel-frame buildings -- and I don't know if the WTC was built recently enough for this to apply -- the steel is coated with a fireproofing material, and the combination of the fireproofing and the sprinkler system is supposed to provide structural integrity for a period of three to five hours. That's supposed to be long enough to evacuate the building safely. After that even the fireproofing is insufficient to keep the steel from heating to a point where it effectively begins to melt, deforming to a point where the building can no longer hold up under its own weight.

In this case, we weren't even looking at a normal fire. The incident began with a massive, high-speed, intentional impact that sheared off multiple beams, exacerbated by a large explosion from fuel aboard the plane. The initial damage was severe. Furthermore, my brother speculates that the impact likely severed the water pipes that reach the upper floors, leaving water gushing from a single point or a relatively small number of points and rendering the sprinklers largely useless.

Buildings do survive aircraft impacts, incidentally: A plane flew into the Empire State Building in the Sixties, I think, and obviously it's still standing. Anyway, I don't think it's fair to characterize this as a fire causing a building collapse -- it's more like a very large bomb.

Re:Call to arms - this is war.

[tzanger]

I fear World War III is following. I'm willing to help. I'm willing.

You scare me.

War is not good, no matter when, no matter who the enemy. Do not be so willing to pull the planet into war.

I pray that if the US does declare war, that it be kept to the US and its enemy. I do not want a third world war. So far this is an internal US matter. Keep my country out of it.

Internet is handling this event well.

[Nonesuch]

I'm actually pleasantly suprised by how well the 'internet infrastructure' is working.

I have big buildouts at Exodus and Genuity, and both sites are seeing problems, but they are isolated to specific high-traffic news sites.

This is a major news event, and as such, there is a huge overload on major news sites, including sites operated by newspapers, TV, and radio.

I have trouble loading MSNBC, a bit of difficulty with slashdot, but normal network access to my servers on Exodus, Genuity, Sprint, and other places around the country has not degraded at all.

Re:structural details from reasonably informed sou

[Preposterous Coward]

Ah, thanks for the correction. It makes more sense that it happened in the 40s prior to the widespread deployment of radar, etc.

Perhaps it's right there...

[TopShelf]

1922 British mandate of Palestine begins

Hijacking is different

[Nonesuch]

It doesn't take high technology to hijack an airplane... I wouldn't be suprised if these hijackings were carried out with quite primitive weapons, perhaps as simple as a knife or icepick.

I do agree that US airport security has become very complacent recently. I've flown many, many times in the past year, often to the east coast, commonly flying with a pocket knife and leatherman multi-tool in my carry-on baggage, only once ever was it even noticed... before boarding a flight to Pittsburg.

Civil rights must be protected, but there is no right to board an aircraft. If you don't like the tight airport security, take a bus, a train, or drive yourself.

News from Globix in NYC

[wbeckler]

I've been getting emails from a friend at Globix, the giant internet exchange in southern Manhattan. Here is the latest news:

Globix is located on Centre Street south of Canal Street. Businesses south of Canal have been asked to evacuate. The dust from the WTC collapse has forced buildings to shut down their air conditioning. Only a few large computer operations can operate without normal air conditioning, but major exchanges, like the AT&T telephone building and Globix, have backup cooling systems that should hopefully operate in these conditions.

Globix engineers are taking care of major service problems and trying to prevent potential major problems so they can leave as soon as possible.

Globix is hooked into the 3 largest backbones that pass through the region, and at least one must still be operating. Email messages originating from Globix are making their way out, but messages sent to Globix are not coming in.

A telephone call to (212-334-xxxx) from NJ (856-672-xxxx) got through, but no calls to the 718 area code are working. I just received a call from a 212 phone as well.

My friend at Globix was walking to a class at Sun Microsystems at the World Trade Center when the first plane hit. His view of the collision was obscured, and he was not injured. He commented:

> I ran down to the woolworth building and stood
> looking in shock at the North tower, the smoke
> billowing out of it and the thousands of papers
> fluttering down against the blue sky. Suddenly
> I saw something hurtling down the side of the
> building. It was a man, limbs, tie and suitcoat
> flailing. several more followed. I turned and
> slowly walked back towars the sunny, newly
> renovated park in front of city hall.
>
> I heard the second explosion hit, and people
> began screaming and running past me.
>
> As I sit here at my comfortable nest of a
> workspace, my skin crawls, and I feel sick to
> my stomach. I have read about events this bad
> or worse a hundred times in the novels my
> father derisively terms storybooks, but the
> reality is completely incomparable. Perhaps he
> had a point.
>

Another friend of mine was in the 70th floor of the second building to get hit, and he made it out alive. I don't yet have the details on that.

Transportation update (from a Brooklyn friend):
Subway lines are running off and on, and bridges and tunnels are closed to cars. The W line was still bringing people into Manhattan at 9:30, but that has ceased. The N/R is now running above 14th Street. Pedestrian traffic is allowed on the Brooklyn Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge. People in suits have been streaming over these bridges into Brooklyn all morning.

Historical Note:
Today, September 11, is the 28th anniversary of the CIA-led coup that overthrew the democratically elected government headed by Allende in Chile. Why is this relevant? I feel an immense amount of anger towards the people who caused this, and I think the people who caused this are the murderers sitting in Washington D.C. who direct U.S. foreign policy. They recklessly inspire anti-U.S. sentiment in every other country in this world. We ruthlessly bombed civilian targets in Yugoslavia (including water purification sites); we starve the children of Iraq; we blockade Cuba for no good reason; we topple democratically elected socialist governments in order to install pro-U.S. dictatorships. My anger does not direct itself solely towards the government officials who have perpetrated these crimes. I am furious at the millions of Americans who voted for George W. Bush. They are responsible for putting into power a person who is walking all over international agreements about global warming and arms control. And anybody who sits by and pays taxes and watches our imperialistic military and State Department do its dirty work has to take some responsibility for these murders. WAKE UP AMERICA: THIS IS YOUR FAULT. No missile defense shield will protect us from the hate that is justifiably spawned worldwide by our pro-corporate foreign policy.

Experience of an anarchist:
When the mail carrier knocked on my door this morning, I was worried that I was about to be taken in by the FBI. If you know what I've been through, you would not think this was a paranoid reaction. There will be a witchhunt following these events, and the U.S. government will probably use it as an excuse to harass activists. Right now the joint anti-terrorism task forces around the country spend most of their money tracking and harassing the anti-corporate activists who have been targeting world financial summits. A good chunk is also spent on the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, neither of which actually have any members; they are just slogans that autonomous cells apply to their acts of vandalism. Today's events show yet again that money spent on national security does not in fact serve national security, but rather serves the insidious ends of the people controlling this country. Expect there to be calls for more money to fund politically motivated witchhunts against the Left. Expect calls for outlawing consumer use of encryption.

Finally:
Eben Moglen, Columbia University Law Professor and general counsel of the FSF once said about the inevitable rise of encrypted communications:

I don't doubt that there will be downsides. You should accept the truth that harms will be caused, as harms are caused by free speech all the time. But don't let yourself be panicked about this. The world of the twenty-first century will be more free, and will continue to be, as the spooks often say, "a tough neighborhood." Indeed, some bombs will go off; there will be, in Stewart Baker's signature phrase, "some mangled, burnt bodies." You will notice that there are already. But fewer of them will be in Iraqi prisons; none of them will ever again be in a gulag or Lager maintained by a KGB or SS state with a tap on every telephone. And of that you should be very proud, because it is we who will have made it possible.

Re:Killing fellow country-men

[mpe]

The hijackers sacrificed their lives for their cause

Quite likely the planes were being flown by the hijackers, since it's likely that the air crews would have ditched the planes, in both New York and Washington.
Little appears to have been made of the plane crashing in Pittsburg though...

Re:Nope, Religionism

[jacobito]

"If your God says it's OK to kill people, your God is fucked up."

Aaargh, PLEASE be sane. There is nothing peculiar to Islam that sanctions violence. If you insist on thinking along these lines, at least recognize that one of the biggest problems the world faces today is fundamentalism.

That aside, we don't know who is responsible yet. Let's not point fingers. And when we do find out, let's be sane, let's be calm, let's be mature. No one more deserves to suffer as so many have today.

-jacob

omfg

[Danse]

Citizens of countries who condone this type of action are not innocents, they are as guilty as the rest for not rising up.

You're the worst sort of idiot in this world. Stupid AND violent. Look at what you said and then imagine it being said by someone in the Middle East about America. WE are responsible for the actions of our government. WE are the targets of those whom we have harmed, whether we believe it justified or not. They share your belief that all the people of the country are responsible for the acts of their government and therefore all Americans are legitimate targets.

Some would like to see our country razed, just as you would like to see their countries razed. It's your kind of thinking that is responsible for such tragedies as today's events. America has perpetrated some pretty serious crimes in this world. People have good reason to hate us in some cases. We're not as innocent as we like to think or as our government would tell us we are. In any case though, massive military retaliation would be idiotic. It will only lead to more destruction on both sides.

Re:omfg

[Danse]

No. Let's quit trying impose our will on the rest of the damn world. Maybe then they won't have any reason to blow the hell out of us. I don't disagree that the people responsible should be brought to justice. Just that it should be done carefully and without any "collateral damage." We've committed and/or supported many horrible acts as a country. We are responsible for the actions of our government. Yet we somehow think we still hold some sort of moral high ground. If you want to blow the hell out of other countries, fine. But don't fucking make up lame ass reasons for why you're doing it and don't even pretend to be innocent.

Woah tiger

[underwhelm]

CNN, ABCnews, etc were all incapacitated. Even if I were foolish enough to use *them* as my primary news source, I don't visit their sites first. Today, I would have been wasting my time to even try to visit their sites.

All you get on CNN, Fox and even NPR now is redundant coverage, talking heads and speculation--which is why I don't use them for "news" on a day-to-day basis. Or am I supposed to assume that I need to check the "valid" news sources for terrorist attacks when I wake up every morning?

I won't respond to your ad hominem attacks, but I stand by my original post: Slashdot has done a great service to its readers by posting this breaking news and remaining accessible through the deluge of information and traffic, as well as for providing their usual discussion services which far exceed the glib "info-poll" applets you see on the established news sources. As far as I'm concerned they've provided the best coverage of this event, from a functional standpoint, available on the web. Its operators should be proud. Call it offtopic, but it's true and we should acknowledge it.

Time to look at history.

[Kibo]

Traditionally, Americans have been by far the most vicious and ruthless when it comes to defending their own. I know MY history. It might be worthwhile to note that prominent leaders such as Kissinger, to say nothing of those who's futures hang in the balance, favor painting with a borad brush. It's not just the assholes who hijacked the planes, it's not the assholes who told them to, it's not the assholes who trained them, it's not the assholes who provided the financing, it's not just the assholes who provided shelter, it's not just the assholes who turned a blind eye, it's all of them. When it comes to killing, no one knows how to do it better than Americans, this they will learn.

When we find the whos, and we will, anything this big leaves a trail, then the time of retribution will be at hand. Believe me, it would be an ignorant if not suicidal move to stand between US and revenge. Right or wrong as it may be, "If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem." Notice how quick the Taliban responded, they know what they allowed to happened. They have a dim idea of what the consequences may be. I can only assume that the comparisons to Pearl Harbor, and the eventual fate of Japan translate into their native tongue. It would behoove those who consider themselves enemies of the West to reflect on what happened to the last nation to attack American soil. I, for one, will lose no sleep over any lives lost should we decide to show those who traffic in terror, what it is to fear. They can hijack planes, we can wipe their cities from the face of the earth.

But hey, we're a representative oligarchy, and in this instance, I'm more than happy to let the rich representatives, who've lost a lot, make a strong point by spilling blood in my name.

I remember when I was about 10 being on the observation deck of one of the WTC, and looking down at all the people. I remember how impossibly huge those buildings seem. Now, those are gone. Maybe a little kid not so different from me was experiencing that still familiar sense of awe. It seems unlikely that anyone in such a situation would have been able to escape (thankfully many others have, seemingly most). What was their sin? If they can be killed in the name of a "benevolent" diety, then my "corrupt" government has my blessing to proceed with any retribution that can be described as "indescribable."

Re: Airport security

[mpe]

Aircraft security, the pilots cabin should
be sealed with a code lock,

But a lock is only a good as the door it is attached to

the pilot should have
guns, and there should be two armed security offices on all planes.

Bullets and planes are a very dangerous combination. There is a lot of energy involved in the presurisation on an aircraft cabin.

Ground control
should have the option to take manual control
of planes, with a secret pilots override.

Actually this could well make things more risky. If this kind of override is to be usable it simply can't be kept that secret...

No evacuation in Oslo

[KjetilK]

There was a report about the U.S. Embassy in Oslo on Norwegian TV now, and the embassy has not been evacuated. However, large armed police forces (Norwegian police are normally unarmed) are covering the building.

World Trade Center Victims

[alexburke]

Our sympathies to the relatives of the victims of the World Trade Center collapse.

Now do the right thing, Mr. Bush -- if Osama bin Laden was behind this, find him and his henchmen and blow them into the next dimension.

Re:The really eerie thing is...

[Datafage]

Explain please?

Sources

[Benjamin Shniper]

Training commercial pilots? What is your source for this information?

Osama said he would cause devestation in America in response to America's support of Israel. I take it this support will greatly increase for the time being.

This is a declaration of war. We are at war. As of 4:07 on Tuesday, we don't know who we are at war with. I would venture a guess that an invasion of Afganistan is being considerred, and that Israel will have a temporary Carte Blanche on their actions against the Palestinians.

But we have lost more people to violence (if we lost half the 50,000 people in the WTC) than we have ever lost in a day of American history before (previous civil war record of 22,000). And more than we lost in many other wars as well.

I wonder what affect this will have on the economy and the NYSE...

-Ben

Re:Where is Bush?:

[lunatik17]

He just landed here at Offut Air Force Base in Bellevue, NE just outside of Omaha. Dunno if he plans on staying here or moving on to somewhere else.

Re:National Missile Defense in new perspective

[mpe]

Hopefully U.S. politicians will now realize that the greatest threat agains the United States is NOT ballistic nukes,

Even without a missile defence system launching a ballistic missile is effectivly handing a target to the US military.

but terrorists using hijacket airplanes or, worse, briefcase nukes, to cause major damage to the countrys infrastructure.

Also rember that bombs (including nukes) can be carried in cars and trucks....

You've been sucked in well and truly

[leonbrooks]

First, know that I have no sympathy for the attackers or any of the people behind them, and although definitely non-violent by nature, would kill any one of them with my bare hands if it would help to reduce the damage. The needs of any one of the many killed or maimed outweigh the needs of one dickhead who thinks he knows how to fix problems by hurting and killing innocent people.

When it comes to killing, no one knows how to do it better than Americans, this they will learn.

Yes, I believe it's called ``scorched earth.'' But success with other than overwhemling firepower is harder to come by.

Think about the fact that these assholes attacked the WTC before the Pentagon. Think about it long and hard. Why?

Think about the stupid anti-terrorism rules that the USA already has. Think about how much those rules intrude into the lives of Americans, and how little they've done to stop this wretched act of terrorism.

Think about the BATF filling someone's house with flammable gas and blowing it up, murdering hundreds of poeple inside. Think about the observation that when the Oklahoma building was blown up from the inside with multiple charges, the BATF offices just happened to be empty, but a day-care centre was left full of children.

Use your collective brains! You speak of the people behind this, but what if the people behind it were really Americans, as happened during World War II? Hitler's Reich would have been impossible without much US finanace and other intervention (e.g. suppression of alternative fuel research in USA by means of patents, promotion of same research in Germany). Pearl Harbour would have been impossible without a great deal of prior US strategy to basically force the Japanese to do something. Don't be a puppet again!

If your reaction is typical of a US citizen, well, welcome back to the Dark Ages: goodbye, personal freedom (in the name of ``greater common good''); goodbye safety, particularly for any minority; hello, police state; hello fear; hello uncertainty. And this: hello, unfettered control of the world's single most powerful military force.

Time to look at history, carefully, before you repeat it.

T h i n k !

Re:Palestinians....

[Hater's Leaving, The]

I can of course try to shed light on it.

You see, America _isn't_ loved by everyone.

The unity provided by
/the enemy of my enemy is my friend/
may be a desparate one, but that's because these situations involve desperate people.

Egyptians are celebrating in the streets too, and Egypt is probably one of the most USA-friendly nations in the Middle East.

The Americans cheered every blast in the Gulf war. Palestinians who are cheering are no different from those Americans who cheered back then. You cheer when you see your enemy hit.

And believe it or not, America _is_ viewed as an enemy by many (most, perhaps) in Palestine. That might be something to do with $2B donations of fighter aircraft to Israel, or it might be something to do with something else from the last 53 years.

Should I stick up a .jpg of a photo my sister took of a tear gas cannister which had "a present from the US" printed on it in English and Hebrew? If you can't see that America continually supporting an oppressive occupying regime makes them an enemy, then you are missing something.

Every country which has suffered directly or indirectly due to actions from the USA in the past will have _some_ people celebrating, I assure you.
As I said above, and it looks like it needs repeating, it's nothing more complicated than
/The enemy of my enemy is my friend/ .

THL

Sorry Boys and Girls

[ender-]

Sorry, but this mirror is now down...