Our New Pearl Harbor

Weehauken, N.J. -- It's almost impossible to reconcile the cool, clear, cloudless day with the scene across the water. There are no World Trade Centers, and up above the giant white clouds steaming from the spot where they used to be, pairs of F-15's circle over Manhattan, around and around the encircled island. Along the closed entrances and highways into the city, ambulances, fire engines and police cars line up for miles waiting to take the thousands of casualties out of New York City and all over the Northeast. At the blood bank in Paramus where I tried to give blood, there were five-hour lines, and the police turned us away.Reporters break down on the air and sob. At the closed-down bridges and tunnels, people stand alongside their cars by the score, staring and crying. I keep calling the cell of one of my closest friends, who went to work inside the Towers at 8:30, and kept getting his voice-mail, until 11:00 a.m., when a recording said his phone was no longer in service. All around New York City, psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal with kids whose parents aren't coming home. It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information.

Eerily, the scene invokes disaster movies -- a number of which have actually shown the World Trade Center towers being blown up. Staring across the harbor on this gorgeous day, it takes a few seconds to realize that this isn't the evocation of something new and horrible, but the real thing, our own Pearl Harbor, perhaps even worse, since it struck us closer to home and reminded us all how technology can bring us all nose-to-nose with war in seconds, and there are no real barriers between people willing to use it in evil ways and us. Technology allows us to see the building collapse before the reporters even know what has happened. We have to try and make sense of it ourselves.

The silence is stunning, unprecedented for mid-morning, mid-week anywhere near Manhattan island. Everyone is in shock. Stories, malls, business are closing, their workers crying, distracted, unsure of how to behave.

Technology turns planes into weapons. It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories.

We are both shocked and oddly prepared. Sci-fi and other forms of popular culture have been preparing us for this kind of Techno-Armageddon for years. Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people. We've never seen anything like it, yet in a strange way we have thought of it for years.

Standing over the harbor, I did something I haven't done in 20 years. I dropped to my knees -- following the lead of a bunch of strangers -- and prayed. I have a bunch of friends in somewhere in that Techno-Armageddon, and just wanted to post these thoughts. If anybody wants to post their own, hopefully here's a good place.

Comments

What repercussions

[MxTxL]

In the wake of this tragedy, I think we need to examine the repercussions.

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.

This is bull-shit. When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good. Since that time, DEA agents have led charmed lives. In many cases DEA agents are in peril, but only live because the Druggies know better than to touch a DEA agent for the repercussions. In the same light, it is clear to me and should be to everyone else that a serious strike against ALL possible/suspected terrorist organizations will send a similar message.

I think we should consider the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington. In the movie, following three or four terrorist attacks the city of New York was brought to a standstill. They declared Marshall Law. This was the effect on one city. In real life, with todays terrorist attacks, most state universities were shut down, many, many businesses all over the nation are closed. Lots of people will begin to live in fear.

This is, of course, what the terrorists want. When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country. We must strike back at these and all terrorists. We must send a message to this sick and twisted community that the US will not stand for this.

Beyond whatever reprisals the President decides to launch. I think we will begin to see some other serious repercussions. Do you think air travel will be the same? I thought it was very strict as it was. We may have to submit to cavity searches before too long.

Here's an interesting issue and one that is well to debate on Slashdot. It is said on just about all the major news networks that there has been an intelligence breakdown. That the terrorists use sophisticated encryption measures and that our intelligence agencies are under-funded and don't have the ability to keep tabs on the terrorists. Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this? Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives?

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

I don't know if we should put up with a greater intelligence presence. I know that is what we will experience. That is pretty clear. But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear, and we must make these sons-of-bitches PAY for what they've done to assure that they can never do it again.

Re:What repercussions

[halftrack]

The american people will cry out for revenge, but you should calm down before striking whoever responsible. Revenging - you must remember - is hard. Traditionally, revenge leads to someone revenging the revenge, unless the revenge is targeted with high political and practical accuracy. Remember, a missil can't tell Bush from e.g. BinLaden. In addition the pressision is not high enough to avoid hitting civilians. If civilians is hit the governmet controlled media in the target country can:

1. condemn the action agains WTC and the Pentagon, thus condemning the attack on their country.
2. using their government controlled media to make the people - even those personally neutral to the US - condemn the US, thus making new terrorist killing more people.

I would like to urge the American people to look for other solutions, silent actions. For instance they can through heavy intelligence - which will be conducted - locate and arrest the people responsible. A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.

Two bonuses will also be given by doing it this way:
1. you are sertain the people responsible are caught, not just presumingly dead.
2. the country housing the terrorist would be put in an - for them - unbeneficial position giving the western countries a good way to excess political pressure on them with a small, but larger than normal effect.

People of america: let the your government know what you belive is right!!

(This is a repost from a previous discussion, but it was to important.)

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

Sorry bud, but all a paroxym of destruction will bring is more of the same. If decisive but massive killing actually stopped the other side, Israel would be as peaceful as Omaha by now.

Re:What repercussions

[zuqif]

Todays events are unprecedented, and I can't see what you're attempting by drawing comparisons with
- movies
- previous dea events

I can't imagine how to even approach the hammer blow that must fall in retaliation, but I think we're all praying for something broader, bigger & more considered than that which you're suggesting.

My question wrt repercussions is how this will knock onto civil-liberties in the traditional (non-tech) sense.

fwiw, I'm not American, but my thoughts will remain with you all.

Re:What repercussions

[aspillai]

Of course repercussions are necessary. The question is what do we do? Do you think sending missiles to suspected rouge nations is a good idea? You claim that you need to protect democracy and the American way of life. Well, in your example you site the DEA. They were not democratic. Would you stand by your convictions if you were the one being imprisioned or worse yet killed based on suspecions? This reminds me of China or the Spanish Inquisition or any number of other undemocratic acts.

So, what should be done? There are black boxes on those planes, if they survived. There must be intelligence reports from the CIA and other national security agencies. Two weeks or more to piece together what exactly happened, who was responsible and how they were able to do this without triggers being tripped everywhere. Then suitable punishment - if it's an act of war, then it must be. This is how America got involved with WW2 is it not.

But to suggest that we just blindly give up our democratic freedom is to give these terrorists precisely what they want. I for one am not willing to do that. I'm all for deadly repercussions, but they need to be well thought out and well executed.

Re:What repercussions

[ethereal]

When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes. The DEA fucked them up really good.

...I think we should consider the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington. In the movie, following three or four terrorist attacks the city of New York was brought to a standstill. They declared Marshall Law. This was the effect on one city.

You must not have seen the rest of the movie [spoiler alert] - the whole point of it was that if you kick in doors everywhere, if you give up on the rule of law just because some degenerates refuse to live within it, if you allow some nut cases to goad you into creating the very environment of reprisal that they thrive on, you've given your enemy exactly what they want. The moral of The Siege was that even in times of crisis, tarring the innocent with the same brush as the guilty is the wrong thing to do, no matter how inspired towards ass-kicking we may be right now. Of course you leave potential terrorists living in fear, but at the expense of leaving everyone living in fear as well. In the long run, a civil society cannot continue along that path.

I think the jury's still out on the intelligence angle, although the three-letter-agencies will have you believe otherwise. For all we know, what was lacking to prevent this tragedy was not Carnivore interdiction, but just a little more attention on the part of an airline gate agent in Boston or Newark. I would think that any terrorists capable of planning this action would be smart enough to not use any public or semi-public communications medium which might have a chance of being tapped. Don't believe anything you hear on this topic for the next couple of weeks, until we can really begin to get to the bottom of it.

Yes, we need to change some things and prevent the reoccurrence of this kind of attack. But equally importantly we need to not allow terrorism to transform society into a warped vision of the very groups that hate us, just because of our fear and uncertainty. Democracy can triumph over terror, if only its own citizens give it the chance.

Re:What repercussions

[t0sher]

Firstly, I totally give out my heart to everyone affected by this. I've sat watching the TV all day in horror.

One question (not trolling) I wonder what knowledge the US powers had on a possible strike this week? Granted, they wouldn't be able to do much about someone on a plane with a death wish, but I heard an interview with someone at Janes who suspected a hit this week.... maybe its just hearsay?

Carnivore isn't anything to get worried about, in fact i've heard its pretty useless. Try getting hold of the summer copy of 2600 magazine (http://www.2600.com) because there is a good article on the system there, showing it would be next to useless to try to gain intelligence on terrorist acts. For example, unless a court order is granted they can only snoop To: and From: info. You might want to check out http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/foia_documen ts.html.

Aside, as my comments probably got buried in the other stories, I totally agree with people trying to calm down the reactionist (although understandable) mood around here. Attacking all known terrorist locations will kill many more innocent people, prehaps for nothing. Then you are no better than the terrorists, only with a false badge of legitimacy pinned to your chests.

As I said before though, I completely understand the feelings here. Its purely awful and evil. Just don't become hypocrites. And the people that are going around saying "bash the dot headers" etc make me SICK.

Thanks for your time. I hope you don't consider me trolling.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

Why weren't you out bombing Churches and Bethlehem when pro-life radicals were shooting doctors?

Get a grip and realize that Islam is not about terrorism, only certain radicals who claim to be "the real Islam" are. Just like similar radicals of other religions.

Re:What repercussions

[Toshio]

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world. There are arguments to this that we should wait until we are sure who it is, that we should not retaliate at all because this will just perpetuate the hostilities.

OK, here's the short checklist (in no particular order) on "Who do we bomb today?"

• Palestina
  for being a mess in the first place
• Izrael
  for the possibility that they want to escalate the war
• Syria
  for being general trublemakers and helping Palestinians
• Iraq
  for maybe Saddam did it
• Lybia
  for Ghaddafi was in the plane business before
• Japan
  for being general pain in the ass from WW2
• Vietnam
  for someone just might not like the fact you killed his father
• Kambodia
  for the same reason as Vietnam
• Somalia
  for killing U.S. Marines over there
• Iran
  for if they didn't like your shah, they didn't liked you
• Afganistan
  for being in fundamentaly wrong religion
• Yugoslavia/Serbia
  for threatening before and after the strikes you did there
• Albania
  for being troublemakers in the two wars so far
• Germany
  for demanding apology for bombing of their cities during WW2
• Ireland
  since US didn't help them get rid of Brits
• U.K.
  opposite from Ireland
• North Korea
  for if they don't listen to our orders, they're capable of everything
• Russia
  for they might just be proving what piece of crap NMD is
• Bosnia and Herzegovina
  for they might still resent you not helping them 1992-1995
• United States of America
  for knowingly allowing extremist groups to exist and thrive
• Canada
  for someone over there might think you want them as a next federal state (and they're still with them Brits
• P.R. of China
  for clearly opposing trading with renegade Taiwan R.O.C
• Every other 1st world country
  for not locking up all suspected anti-globalisation activists
• Every other 3rd world country
  for probably housing terrorist and generaly disliking USA

Did I miss someone?

Re:What repercussions

[Kryptonomic]

destroy all three of the Islamic holy sites.

That's like saying "destroy all Christian holy sites" after what Tim McVeigh did. Based on your comment you are exactly the kind of person all terrorists are: a hothead with a tendency towards violent knee-jerk reactions and intolerance towards cultures, habits and religions you don't understand.

Islam can be used to justify this horrific act of terrorism just as well as Christianity can be used to justify the "religious" violence in the Northern Ireland (a large part of which is being funded by Irish Americans, by the way).

You've never been outside the U.S.A., have you?

Re:What repercussions

[chabotc]

I am gonna post something that is gonna be very unpopulair i am sure, but still i am puzzled.

You state in your email your shock at the loss of life, and the loss of freedom.

Yet your way to solve this is to take more human lives (launch missles at every one suspected), and take away the freedom of everyone suspected.

In no way can i rime these two arguments. Yes this is the worst thing i have seen on CNN ..ever? (i am not up close, i admit). However wasnt it the american founding fathers who said that freedom goes above all differences? This also means respecting the freedom of others.

I accept that you feel the guilty need to be delt with, however shooting the world @ random won't make the situation any better. You would betray the very thing you fight for. Justice and Freedom.

Also, don't forget before you claim the world will not be the same, that palastinians, people in ireland, south afrika, etc have suffered the same faith. Next time they are in the news, think back of this moment. This might be a unique opertunity to cherish freedom, not only for americans, but for humans.

Re:What repercussions

[BMIComp]

It's not that we can't find the terrorists, the problem is that they are working individually, not together.

Reffering back to the movie "The siege", they kept mentioning independant terrorist cells. If one cell is caught, the other cells are not affected. That is why, just like in the seige, it is so hard to track these people down. There is not always a heirarchy in these type of organizations. It was easy for the government to infiltrate the mafia, because this is organization has a very well defined chain of command, which makes it much easier to tap their conversations and to find out what is going on.

The truth is, we are fighting an invisible enemy. That is why, like in the movie the siege, it will be difficult to retaliate; it is hard to retaliate against an enemy which is unknown. So, it would not be prudent to start attacking arbitray countries and incite WWIII.

P.S. If we start attacking "every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world", there wouldn't be much left.

Re:What repercussions

[mellon]

If there was some way that giving up strong encryption would save tens of thousands of lives, I would be willing to do it.

Unfortunately, me giving up strong encryption doesn't cause others to give it up. The only thing we can give up that can possibly reduce the amount of terrorism in the world is the idea that it's okay to kill, steal, and bully. It would be awfully nice, as an American citizen, if I could say "we never do things like this - our hands are clean." :'(

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

Ah, the "genocide is the answer" solution

When someone else has sworn to kill you, sitting around and trying to be nice is stupid. Kill them first. Or are you not paying attention to what those vermin are preaching in their newspapers, television programs, and mosques? Imagine a TV show for children which told kids how sweet the blood of the infidels smells. Or, if you'd like, move to the West Bank and watch it yourself.

They started the fight. It's time to end it.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

What would you do if someone were holding a gun at your head? If you had the opportunity, would you shoot them first, or would you wait to hear his point of view, apologize for making them angry at you, say you're sorry for making them so mad that they would hold a gun at your head?

The fact of the matter is that in some cases you have to fight fire with fire.

Because attacking innocent civilians simply because you disagree with them, is *wrong*.

Those are your words, not mine. Were all 50 THOUSAND of the people in the WTC or were they not, innocent civilians? Yes, it is wrong to kill innocent civilians because you disagree with them. It is *NOT* wrong to kill hostile terrorists who have killed your countrymen.

You, my friend, are the fucking cunt. Unless it is clear that you will not put up with this shit, you are going to have it on your plate for lunch everyday. It's just like standing up to the school yard bully. If he thinks you won't resist, he'll take your lunch money everyday. If you pop him in the nose once, and knows you will do it the next time he comes around, you will never hear from him again.

Apparently, there are about 4 terrorist organizations that are capable of hijacking 3x airliners and piloting them into major cities within 30 minutes of eachother. I don't think there is much reason to figure out which of these 4 are responsible, bomb them all. This is the only way to send the correct message.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Please cite historical examples of pacifistic nation-states that have survived more than, say, 100 years when not isolated.

It's easy to be peaceful when the only people around are your people. When other peoples are competing with you, however, pacifism is a great way to get your genome wiped out.

Re:What repercussions

[Malc]

"Do you think air travel will be the same? I thought it was very strict as it was."

As an international traveller who came and lived in the US for a couple of years, let me tell you that I've always found security at American airports a joke. You speak with the voice of American complacency that helped make today's disaster easier - it is currently far from strict compared with other countries. The best airline security that I've ever seen was when I flew El Al (sp?) to Israel in 1982.

Re:What repercussions

[wyseguy]

This cowardly act is unfortunately carried out by people who believe that the taking of innocent life is completely justified. These people, unfortunately, only understand violence. Incarcerating these people will only elevate them to "wrongly imprisoned" status and will serve encourage other terrorist attacks. We cannot negotiate with them, because they belive that we are the ones who are in need of correction. Should the United States fail to act strongly here, that will only serve to make America an even greater target for further violence. Should we kill the people who are responsible...absolutely. It is unfortunate that we would have to resort to such an action, but it is the only one that terrorists understand.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

We've heard this rhetoric before. And not once a screenshot, a transcript, a schedule showing how frequently this happens in reality, as opposed to the minds of those who want to justify their killing. Prove me wrong.

Re:What repercussions

[gotan]

Do you really think, that more death, especially the death of innocents, will make anyone better about this? What you propose, hitting "suspected terrorist hangouts", regardless of who really launched this terrorist attacks, and regardless of civillians who might reside at or near those "terrorist hangouts" will only escalate the already horrendous situation.

On the contrary, the USA should seek active help from the countries where they suspect the origin of these attacks. Which country could deny that? The whole world is in shock about the events, and even terroristic organisations where quick in distancing themselves from this. The aim must be, to uncover who is responsible for this, to get worldwide support against terrorism, not to strike blindly at places all around the world, and just provoke revenge for (maybe unjustified) revenge.

The "issue", that more power to intelligence agencies to spy on US-citicens might have prevented this is simply unfounded. With all the possibilities they already have they didn't prevent anything from happening. And you don't even know if internet, phone, or encryption played a role in the event anyways. I wouldn't be so quick about giving up privacy on the unlikely chance, that that will help against well organized terrorists who wont be affected by anti-encryption laws anyway.

I also think you should reconsider that Franklin quote. Read "liberty" as "liberty to protect my privacy and to free speech", and "safety" as "safety from terrorist attacks coordinated over phone/internet" (which i consider very little indeed) and there you are.

Re:What repercussions

[BoneFlower]

About liberty vs security- we must accept some restrictions on our freedoms for the vital ones to flourish. For example, for our freedom of speech to make a difference, violent acts against ones person must be banned. The question is, where do we balance this?

Also, the intelligence community MUST be given a free enough hand to investigate leads and research potential threats. Greater cooperation between our national inteligence agencies such as the CIA, NRO, NSA, etc. and the civilian law enforcement could facilitate more and faster data sharing which could detect these attacks soon enough to stop them. Right now the foreign intelligence community of the United States is severely restricted on collecting intelligence inside US borders, and can't at all if there is no apparent foreign connection. US Intelligence needs not just more money but looser guidelines on what we can do.

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

You're just not looking. Luckily, MEMRI (http://www.memri.org) has made it easy.

Here's a nice Friday Sermon:

http://www.memri.org/sd/SP25201.html

It's title? "Blessings to whoever saved a bullet to stick it in a Jew's head."

You're just unwilling to belive that there may in fact be evil people in the world, worthy of extermination. Maybe if it was your family in the WTC or in Jerusalem, you'd change your mind.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[Picass0]

It has been pointed out that the trial of one of Bin Lauden's men was to begin tomorrow in NYC. This trial would represent a the "more satisfying and peaceful solution" you speak of, Halftrack. And guess what? The thugs who did this only understand the language of violence.

When the US finds who did this, a graphic and public example needs to be set for all those who would choose to follow .

So, as an American to you I will say it's alot easier to preach peace when it's not your country.

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

So you're saying kill all arabs?

I'm saying that you should kill those who have sworn to kill you. Have all arabs sworn to kill all Jews? Nope. But those who have should expect no mercy when the object of their hatred does unto them what they wish to do unto others.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

I guess your bitter experience involved you giving a half-hearted attempt to defend yourself that merely angered your bully and prompted him to hurt you even more.

*I* speak from experience, if you had done it RIGHT and really HURT the mother-fucker, he would have never bothered you again.

They will NOT eventually go away, if they know you are only a half-ass in defending yourself, or know that you won't do it all, you are tempting no, *INVITING* them to continue abusing you.

I don't advocate striking innocent civilians, or bombing prominent muslim holy places as someone suggested. But if you (and i'm saying 'you', not in addressing you personally, but a person in general) live in a para-military terrorist camp, you are prepared to die for your belief. It is time to make that happen.

Re:What repercussions

[bfields]

What would you do if someone were holding a gun at your head? If you had the opportunity, would you shoot them first, or would you wait to hear his point of view, apologize for making them angry at you, say you're sorry for making them so mad that they would hold a gun at your head?

Help me out with your analogy here; what exactly in the real-life situation corresponds to the "gun"? Who exactly is the "someone" holding it?

--Bruce Fields

Re:What repercussions

[onepoint]

In a small moment of time the USA has changed.

What we should do is worry about the lash back. I feel that if it is found to be state sponsored acts ...well.. nice knowing you... there are going to red flag the bastards.

-Michael

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

That was not an analogy, it was to demonstrate that this person would not stand up for himself in a severe situation, but would rather prefer to talk his way out of it. And i was correct, he has admitted that he would not shoot.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

I make no apologies for evil individuals and I am in more-or-less agreement with you that they need to be put beyond the ability to do evil. There are even large groups of individuals who do evil. Same goes. But that's not the same thing as your apparent "they're palestinian, therefore they're evil" or "they're muslim, therefore they're evil" bullshit. That's the exact mirror image of "they're jewish, therefore they're evil" that you're having a problem with.

Chicken and egg, which came first? Let me know when you have a time machine to go back 10,000 years and find out who started it so we can wipe them off the earth. I'm not willing to make a 50% bet that it wasn't the Israelis given that they long ago surrendered any moral high ground by their own behavior (perhaps you recall the old testament stories about killing every man woman and child in a town?). Just because they aren't publishing it in every newspaper doesn't mean that it isn't apparent in their behavior.

Which of course isn't to say that all or even most Israelis are any more culpable in this than all or even most Palestinians or Muslims. Your "it's all of them vermin" thinking is exactly what the other side thinks, and until both sides find a way beyond that, this cycle isn't going to end. As soon as the Palestinians are wiped off the face of the earth, some other group will find a way to take their place.

Re:What repercussions

[sigwinch]

So what are you suggesting? Turn the other cheek?

Yes. The United States has been pushing people around and generally being a nuisance to the Middle East for nigh on 50 years now. The US is very big, and very strong, and they are very small and very weak. We have B-52 Stratofortresses and they have rifles and Molotov cocktails.

In a power disparity like that, there's only one way for the little guy to fight: infrequent lightning attacks. These guys don't have the resources to carpet bomb Manhattan with daisy cutters: that would take tens of thousand of people and a very high industrial level. They *do* have the resources to send a dozen men to hijack a handful of planes. A dozen men, I might add, that are brainwashed, do not know where they were trained, and cannot identify any of the few dozen (perhaps up to few hundred) other people in the organization.

While eliminating various terrorist targets (HOPEFULLY the ones responsible) won't ensure our safety, it will make it clear to everyone that there is a price to pay for inflicting violence on our country.

And who were we to blow up to avenge the act of Timothy McVeigh? Detroit? Drop a laser-guided bomb on the 'traitors' who rented him the truck?

That's the problem: guerilla warfare presents a diffuse target, and mixes it in with non-combatants and even friendlies. Remember your uncles and fathers in Vietnam: they *lost*. For all the might and resolve and industrial capacity and high-level of technology they *lost*.

The only way to win a guerrilla war against a diffuse enemy is not to fight. Do nothing beyond diplomacy, and try to keep the saber rattling quiet. They'll either become peaceful like Vietnam, or even more warlike like Iraq. In the former case, everybody wins. In the latter case, you will be fighting an open war against a massed enemy, and that is the kind of war the US can win.

More importantly this is a wakeup call of how lax the so-called security in this country is. While I have no desire to have my privacy invaded, etc., it's frightening how easy it is for a group of people to commit such large-scale violence in such a small amount of time.

Two points: 1) That's the essence of liberty: people can walk around and do whatever they want. The only 'solution' is a police state a la the Third Reich. 2) This is a very, very, very, very small-scale amount of violence. Compared to any fire bombing of a city during WWII, it's tiny. Compared to the number of people who die horribly *every year* during the monsoon season on the Indian subcontinent, it's tiny. Compared to the Battle of Gettysberg, it's tiny. Compared to the great flu epidemic early in the 20th centuring, it's absolutely nothing. Compared to a few months of the German death camps, it's nothing.

Sure, for the people involved it's the worst thing that could possibly happen, but the *nation* can take it. The *nation* can afford to sit back and ask "What strategic changes do we make to keep this from becoming a routine thing?"

Because we cannot let it become a routine thing. There are five billion potential enemies out there, many of them who, through personal experience, equate the US with death and suffering. It only takes a few dozen such people to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans. Make no mistake: we got off *easy* this time. Those planes could easily have been loaded with anthrax, or radioactive dust. Or they could have used something much more certain than planes, like poisoning the water supply, or blowing graphite dust into every major electrical substation in the NYC area in the dead of winter.

Re:What repercussions

[carlos_benj]

When colombian drug dealers killed DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, the DEA broke down every suspected drug dealer's door with or without evidence of any crimes.

That works against a group with a profit motive. That's not what's at work here. You do that with terrorists and you only feed their delusions. You nail the responsible parties with as little collateral damage as possible and you stand a decent chance of winning the war for the mindset of people (not necessarily governments or special interest groups). If that doesn't happen you spawn a new generation that looks upon the loss of 50k lives as "justifiable".

We want swift retribution because it'll make us feel better..... momentarily.

Question: would you be willing to trade your personal privacy for maybe some further measure of security from terrorists? Would you grant the people running Carnivore greater rights into your life in order to perhaps prevent more events like this?

Carnivore can't sniff out an organization whose plans are made on the backside of the desert. I doubt they use the internet for anything more than propaganda. They don't plot attacks over cell phones. They're smart.

The news agencies keep talking about how this had to be a sophisticated, well funded attack. No. It was well planned, but very low tech. No foreign investments in military equipment were needed. The coordination was set by the Airline schedules (probably why they didn't fly America West), not the atomic clock synchronized on their IBM built Linux watches.... Well funded? How much do airline tickets go for these days? Did they have to build bombs? No, Take off on a transcontinental passenger flight that departs near your target and you have more fuel than Timothy McVeigh would know what to do with. Very low tech. Very inexpensive (in terms of return on investment). Very well thought out.

When we begin to live in fear, we have betrayed the principles of our very country.

On this we agree.

But what is obvious to me is that we must rise above this, we must not live in fear....

I agree. That means that we don't sink to their level to the point that innocent lives in the scores of thousands are willingly sacrificed to make our point. That's not "rising above" this. We can't be willing to stoop to their level in terms of losing our humanity. If we do, we are worse than they are because we aren't as smart. This was planned with patience. Targets were chosen because of the massive losses in terms of human life, but also because they knew the symbolic and actual damages that would be done to our country.

The trade center was a seat of commerce, literally and figuratively. They struck us in the pocketbook, literally and figuratively because we put so much stock in our economic prowess.

The airlines (most people just see this as a tool, but I think it was a target as well) offered us a sense of connectedness that email and telephones can't give. We felt safe about our domestic flights and security was minimal when compared to international flights. This too was a strike at commerce since much of air travel is business related. Now all the overnight package delivery services are grounded as well. They struck us there because we felt safe.

The pentagon is the seat of our military power. They struck us there because we take great pride in our military strength (not necessarily the same as our role as international policemen).

We pride ourselves on being the strongest economically and militarily and believe that we are somehow safely insulated from this very sort of thing, and that is precisely where we were hit. Literally and figuratively.

Re:What repercussions

[merlin_jim]

I'd just like to second what everyone else has been saying.

Someone somewhere does need to be taught the lesson that America will defend its people viciously against actions of this sort. But lots of people everywhere need to know for a fact that America stands for freedom and liberty, and that we will never as a people let stand any action that takes freedom or liberty away from any individual. The moment that we condemn anyone, criminal, terrorist organization, or foreign country without due process we have given up all of our freedoms.

Oh, and I'm sure this is a VERY unpopular sentiment today, but most so-called "terrorist organizations" are perfectly legal, legitimate organizations. They're generally illegal in their countries due to sedition, but freedom of speech means freedom of speech for everyone. Sure, a large number of them don't see any harm with hurting people to get their point made, but we, the American People, have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Until and unless we have irrefutable proof that a particular organization is responsible, we should do NOTHING in terms of retaliation.

Okay, I'm done with my rant. Now will all the stupid ignorant people that want to bomb the whole fucking world just cause they're hurting please shut the fuck up and think about what you're saying?

Not that I'm too hopeful that will happen...

Re:What repercussions

[MxTxL]

From your sig

All in favor of losing their rights, please do nothing.

From your post

we should do NOTHING in terms of retaliation.

What exactly, do you believe in?

Do you propose that we have a trial for some people we can't get ahold of in Afganistan. Do you supose that those people will turn themselves and submit to our court system? Let a judge give Bin Laden a life sentence from his courtroom in New Orleans. That will probably stop him from doing it again. Right?

The fact is, due process of law is something we afford people accused of civil/criminal transgressions. What has happened today, was, wether you would like to admit it or not, an act of war. You do not kill thousands of civilians in America and be ranked as a common thug. The person responsible for this is not just a criminal. This is now a military leader. A military strike is the only way to deal with such people.

, but we, the American People, have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

No, actually, we don't.

but freedom of speech means freedom of speech for everyone

Yes, freedom of speech should be universal. Let Bin Laden come on /. and I will discuss wether the US is the devil or not with him. If he shows his face in USENET, I'd be glad to let him speak his peace. But when his speech degrades into killing thousands of my countrymen in a cowardly but yet MILITARY attack, I think it's clear that we shouldn't need to afford him a trial, we should have him eating shrapnel.

Re:What repercussions

[Pig Hogger]

But lots of people everywhere need to know for a fact that America stands for freedom and liberty, and that we will never as a people let stand any action that takes freedom or liberty away from any individual.

What fucking bullshit! "Freedom and liberty". Ha! Only the rich people with lots of money can afford the lawyers to defend their freedom and liberty. And yet, they don't have any more freedom and liberty because they are slaves to their money and bottom-line, and they can be sued into oblivion by whoever is richer than them.

Re:What repercussions

[TWR]

The Muslim religion and MOST of the people who practice it do not condone the shedding of blood, even "infidels".

I never said that it was a Muslim belief. In fact, the Koran explicitly forbids the actions which Hamas glorifies in the in the name of Islam. Hamas-associated Imams preach filth that you would not believe. The Palestinian Authorithy has mind-numbing hate being used as kiddie TV. The textbooks used in schools glorify suicide bombings and encourage children to be martyrs. And then, when Israel is bombed, there is dancing in the streets. Go figure.

There should be no doubt that these people who preach this hate are worthy of death.

-jon

Re:What repercussions

[crucini]

That was probably the best post I've seen on the topic. One complaint though:

blowing graphite dust into every major electrical substation in the NYC area in the dead of winter.

NY is mostly heated with steam heat. Some of it comes from oil-fired burners in building basements, and a lot of it comes from Con Ed - it's waste steam from power plants. Killing the power would have massive effects, but it wouldn't cause a lot of people to freeze to death, if that's what you were thinking.
Anyway:

The real question is, "why aren't Japanese people trying to kill us? Why aren't German people trying to kill us? What did we do differently?

Re:What repercussions

[sigwinch]

NY is mostly heated with steam heat.

Good point. Where I am in the midwest there tends not to be enough economy of scale to justify steam, and I tend to forget about it. Although anybody that uses forced-air heating, which I imagine includes a lot of finance and logistics companies with fancy thermostats, would be still be screwed.

Killing the power would have massive effects, but it wouldn't cause a lot of people to freeze to death, if that's what you were thinking.

Maybe not on a blow-up-the-World-Trade-Center scale, but still, killing a hundred or so old and poor people using a leaf blower and a bag of industrial lubricant is still a pretty good kill ratio, especially if the terrorist claimed responsibility and worked the public fear angle for maximum effect.

The real question is, "why aren't Japanese people trying to kill us? Why aren't German people trying to kill us? What did we do differently?

Anyone who can't answer that question should be removed from US policy-making. Just look at the Chinese! We blew up their embassy, and they nearly killed everyone on one of our military airplanes and afterwards hassled us mightily, and they're Most Favored Nation with no signs of that changing! On the one hand, we have the strong-willed nuclear-armed intellectual descendants of Chairman Mao who are on their way to becoming allies, and on the other hand we have (and this is only a guess based on the scanty information available) poorly-armed desert punks who would've nuked Manhattan if they could.

Unless we want repeat performances, we'd better figure out how to avoid instigating this kind of warfare in the future. The risk mitigation techniques needed are vastly different than for conventional warfare, and I fear that the old guard will get hundreds of thousands of Americans killed before they figure this (much like they did when they ignored air power in a previous war). And least the Enemy hit the Pentagon. Thank God for that. Even the most fossilized Cold Warrior has trouble ignoring an airplane hitting *his* building.

Re:What repercussions

[AsylumWraith]

I don't care if they think they're going to Allah. They're gone from this world, hence not a problem anymore.

Also, don't use the word "Islamic" to describe these people, even if you tack "Fundamentalist" to it. It's a slander to one of the greatest, most tolerant, and most peaceful religions on the planet.

Pigs like the ones who committed this atrocity do nothing but pervert and slander Islam.

Re:What repercussions

[Dwonis]

Is the encryption export ban such a bad thing when stacked against 50,000 people's lives?

YES! It is such a bad thing. You're forgetting that crypto export controls do nothing to prevent anyone from getting their hands on cryptographic technology. Anyone can build a cryptographic communications device quite easily, so crypto controls will only serve to restrict legitimate use and research in the field. I don't know about you, but I don't want any government wasting its time on useless measures at this time.

Cryptography is out of the bag. Get used to it.

Re:What repercussions

[merlin_jim]

You ask what I believe in... my belief in this matter is that certain rights are inalienable, but fragile. That every individual deserves the same basic freedoms and liberties, and that they must be fought to be preserved. In this case, that means walking carefully until all the facts are known.

I don't mean having a full trial by any means, but I do mean having irrefutable proof that Bin Laden (or whoever the evidence points to) did it. The events of yesterday were indeed an act of war, but a war like mankind has only begun to see. These were not the actions of a people-sanctioned or supported government. These were the actions of a few men out of a large population. The answer is not missles or bombs or wholesale slaughter. The answer is surgery. Cut the ugly tumor out of the heart of the nation and let it heal.

What I meant about freedom of speech is you can't condemn someone for hating America or for wanting to be responsible for this or for cheering that this happened. Sure, these things may be morally criminal after yesterday's events, but they are not legally criminal. I urge caution pointing the finger at anyone, for how terrible it would be to find out later that we pointed at the wrong person.

Re:What repercussions

[merlin_jim]

Only the rich people with lots of money can afford the lawyers to defend their freedom and liberty

You bring up an excellent problem with our society currently. But the problem is more one of how does one fairly defend freedom and liberty more than how does one obtain them. The mere fact that this is an issue that many people acknowledge points out that it works. The only way to ever obtain perfect freedom is to be a society of one. Other humans will always be impinging on your freedom, intentionally or not.

The question then is not how free you are, but whether your freedom is recognized, and how fair the arbitration process is. Granted, it could be made more fair here in the states, but I would wager that the vast majority of Americans never butt up against that problem.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Bzzzt. The reason Switzerland became neutral in the first place is because Europe was TERRIFIED of Swiss mercenary forces. I believe it was Napoleon who talked the Swiss into agreeing that they would remain neutral in future European conflicts, in exchange for the honor of guarding the Vatican (you know, those guys with the poofy uniforms and the halberds).

Today, every Swiss family has a Heckler & Koch G3 7.62mm assault rifle in the closet, ready to deploy as part of the militia. This is NOT a pacifistic nation, it's a neutral one. Not the same thing.

Re:What repercussions

[elmegil]

You can not peacefully coexist with a people who's sole mission in life is to push your people into the sea,

But then you get blamed for trying to kill the Israeli's who are doing that to you. I guess you just can't win, can you.

In case my sarcasm is not PLAINLY evident, you need to get a clue and stop assuming that because the most vocal of a group are radical and arguably even evil doesn't mean that the whole group agrees. Just look at how long slavery held on in the face of reasonable opposition here.

Of course it's not in the interest of the saber rattlers and advocates of genocide like yourself to actually allow the view that there are actual (gasp!) moderate palestinians who genuinely would like to live in peace. That might mean that the easy (and final) solution isn't so easy after all.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Sweden and Norway both maintain military forces though. Sweden is one of the few (I can think of about three: US, Sweden, and France) countries who design and build their own multirole fighters.

I'm not arguing that you have to be an aggressive military powerhouse in order to survive. I argue that you must be willing to defend yourself and your interests, or else people who are not so high-minded will be happy to take them away from you.

Where exactly is America so aggressive? I don't understand what you're talking about.

Re:What repercussions

[Moofie]

Yup. The US has defended itself against threats from Afghanistan, tried to restore order in Sudan, and (with UN authority) bombed Yugoslavia. We also supported the (UN chartered) country of Israel. We have also declined to trade with nations with whose policies we do not agree. We have tried to set up democratic governments where there were none, and we have supported those who fight against oppression (like in Afghanistan and Central America)

I don't remember Afghanistan hating us so much when our surface to air missiles and training support were the only things between them and being a Russian state. I don't remember Sudan hating us when we sent food and water and humanitarian aid.

No, I DON'T understand why we're hated. Maybe I'm an ugly American, but this does not compute. The injustices and inequalities that this article argues create terrorism CANNOT be addressed, because in large part they are fabricated and perpetrated by the very terrorists who purport to abhor them. America is far from perfect. Sometimes, it's not even very good. But which regime would you rather have running the show? George W. Bush, or the Taliban?

rebuilding the towers...

[mach-5]

After a discussion with some co-workers, we agreed that the towers should be re-built, and in the some location as the former towers. Not only as a memorial to those who died, but also as a sign of this country's strength.

Any other thoughts on this matter? Should the towers be rebuilt?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Communomancer]

Personally, I'd like to see three towers built in their place, with the middle one much taller than the other two. That way, it would look like a giant middle finger, directed straight at the fuckers who did this.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[cancrman]

out of all the commotion this is the best idea I've heard all day. I do believe this would be the biggest "fuck you" that we could give to whoever was responsible for this.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Mad Browser]

Without a doubt.

With utmost respect to the casualties, the USA is bigger than the lives lost today. As a sign of our strength we must rebuild the towers to show that we cannot be thwarted by terrorists.

A memorial is also due course and I'm sure will come to pass but more than that what we owe those who died today is to find the people responsible and make sure something like this never happens again...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Niles_Stonne]

I am definitely for the rebuilding of the towers... Whatever they are replaced with should become an image of several things:

Power. The power of our country, and it's ability to create superior technology.

Remembrance. The new building should pay respects to those that died in this horrible incident.

Perspective. We should not dwell on this for the rest of our lives...

Peace. It needs to be a symbol of peace.

Not sure how to get all that into a single building, but I am sure that it can be done.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[baptiste]

the towers should be re-built

Absolutely! The Democrat in me says we take all teh $$ Bush wants for missle defense and rebuild the towers since now its OBVIOUS missle defense is a folly. They will find a way to attack America. Sure a nuke would have flattened NY, not just the World Trade Center. But those billions could be spent on much better things, even just in a security arena.

But the American in me says -> raise taxes, SS surplus, bonds, even a short term defecit. We need to show the world we will rebuild. We will NOT be cowed. And hte idea of a third tower in teh middle giving the bird to the terrorists - I love it :) It was one of the few times I smiled on this tagic day. And if we find the bastards that did this, let jail them and then toss them off the new WTC buildings into the rubble below :)

I really hope we rebuild the buildings - bigger and better than ever. Tempting fate? Maybe - but its not like fanatics lack targets!

May we find the bastards and wipe them out. God Bless America.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Louis_Wu]

Personally, I've been thinking that it might be more appropriate ( than rebuilding the Twin Towers) to level the blocks completely and have everyone's names who dies in this engraved in steel plates, along the lines of the Vietnam Wall.

Compromise: rebuild the Towers, and engrave the names of the dead on the building. A living, working monument. Maybe the first floor outside walls can be marble, with the names engraved; maybe the names can be on the patio tiles around the buildings, or on the floor tiles in the building.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[imadork]

Absolutely.

We could level the site and put up a memorial and a new park, but I feel that the best memorial will be a bigger Trade Center Complex, with two bigger towers, which will become a new symbol of American resiliance.

I grew up in New York City, and I know a bit about the spirit of the city. Its people are all very resiliant, and will show the world that they can handle this tragedy. They will take time to mourn, of course, but after, they will have to go on with their lives. Their lives will be changed, for sure, but they will go on, because they can't live any other way.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Just some sobering thoughts for a sobering situation.

These days office space is in a glut. Who is going to fill those enormous towers (esp. given the state of our current economy, which isn't going to be improving any time soon in light of today's events)?

More to the point, who is going to *want* to work in those buildings after what happened today?

I agree that it's not necessarily a bad idea, especially as a way of bringing the country together, but these are one of a few realities that such a project would have to face.

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Sir Mix A Lot]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

If ground control can do it, so can I. Or any other determined psycho. Sure it might be _very_ difficult, but everyone knows that most (all?) security can be broken. The first guy to figure it out holds onto it until he can get enough remote control pilots to slam a plane into every building in the nation. It's a good idea, but a lot of precations have to be taken to ensure that this improves everyone's safety, not makes it worse.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Jeremi]

If they did rebuild the WTC, what do you think of including some sort of anti-aircraft/anti-missile system on it somewhere? I know it's probably silly, but rebuilding the WTC would be seen as a challenge to the terrorists, and we wouldn't want to have to rebuild it a second time....

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

With all that money that was just given back in the tax rebate?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Good point.

I guess the other alternative is to make airline cockpits damn near impossible to get into during flight, without adding too much weight to the plane.

If they can do it for the tellers at the local burger king, they can do it for airline pilots.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Detritus]

If you visit the military installations on Hawaii, such as Schofield Barracks, home of the 25th Infantry Division, you can still see bullet holes in some of the buildings from the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. They were intentionally not repaired.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[wwight]

Speaking of three towers, building 7 in the World Trade Complex just collapsed.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Jason Earl]

All that would do is put us at the mercy of the pilots. One crazy in the cockpit would doom everyone on the plane, with nothing any of the passengers could do.

Quite frankly, after today, if I am ever on a plane that is hijacked I plan on doing the only sane thing. I will rush the attackers and pray for a miracle. There were hundreds of people on board those airplanes. If they would have rushed their attackers most of them would have survived, and the WTC would still be standing today.

The only way to win against madman is to oppose them. Damn the costs!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Regolith]

How about building a cell block in the sub^10 basement of the new towers and imprisoning those responsible there? Surround them with the evidence that America will not be beaten into submission. Even bigger "F@$# You" to the bastards.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Have Blue]

The non-centralized design of the WTC towers was what allowed them to survive the 1993 bombing (in fact, I recall an architect saying that the building is basically immune to a single reasonably-sized bomb). You just can't win them all...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Have Blue]

Building WAS immune. I guess I still haven't fully accepted this...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[NMerriam]

Tell that to the people who died on the Air Egypt flight (in which the pilot committed suicide and took a few hundred people with him)

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[turbodog42]

According to CNN, they were owned by New York-based Larry Silverstein Properties and Los Angeles-based Westfield America Properties.

See this article.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[sigwinch]

After the Murrah Building was destroyed in Oklahoma City, and the wreckage cleared away, it was decided to leave the lot permanently vacant. While I understand the motivation for this decision, I respectfully disagree. There are those (few in number, I hope) who will always see the empty spot where the Murrah building once was as a monument to McVeigh, not to his victims. He left his mark on the city. There is no way that a rebuilt Murrah Building could be so interpreted.

You are not alone in feeling this way. There are many here in Oklahoma -- including me -- who also thought that the best monument to the victims would be a new federal building. Unfortunately the busybodies and bureaucrats have a way of dominating such things.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Maybe I should clarify...

"As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?"

read: a hijacked plane. not *any* plane, but one that's already been hijacked. Reinforce the cockpit door and walls, add a system where the pilots could monitor the cabin via hidden video cameras, and where they could notify ground sources of their situation if necessary, and in case of breach, hand control of the aircraft over to ground control. However, this hand-off could only be initiated by the aircraft itself. The facial/fingerprint recognition is a good idea as well.

This way a hijack would need to be two-pronged. It would have to attack the plane, but also take hte ground control. Exponentially harder to coordinate.

As another poster already mentioned, 90% of the systems are already in place. Autopilot is used all the time during takeoff and landing.

One other failsafe possibility. Install a safety mechanism to handover control of air traffic from one tower to another in case of attack. For those of you who never saw "pushing tin" or any documentaries on air traffic control, skilled terrorists could probably do 10x the damage they did today if they had targeted the towers at laguardia, newark, and JFK all at once, and directed the aircraft to fly into eachother.

But i'm sure you've all seen Die Hard 2...

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[IronChef]

Not only should they be rebuilt, they should be made into a monument of all that is American, a thorn in the side of all the nuts who hate us. The new towers should be much bigger... plated in gold... with a giant stock ticker across the sides, so big and bright that you can see it from space.

The new towers should be bristling with lasers and radar. They should have a 150-plex movie theater inside, and a professional wrestling stadium on the top, just to annoy the rest of the world with our strange taste in "sports."

OK, so I am being a little ridiculous. But yes... rebuild. No placid memorial parks... we need a monument that honors the TRUE spirit of what was lost. Working buildings are the best way to do that.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dazed-n-confused]

As a sidenote, shouldn't there be a way for the ground control to override the controls of a hijacked plane?

So terrorists can take over ground control and turn any number of planes into missiles? Not a very good idea.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

good point.

but, a plane is an excellent weapon and easy prey(as has most unfortunately been demonstrated today). they will be targeted again.

what other types of attacks (besides car-bombs) should be be worrying about? EMP?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Pig Hogger]

Speaking of three towers, building 7 in the World Trade Complex just collapsed.

Hell, make it four towers!

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Schwarzchild]

Rushing hijackers sounds like a good idea and is something I would probably do too unfortunately people are sheep and probably wouldn't help you to disarm the terrorists.

Btw, the hijackers on one of the planes stabbed a couple of flight attendants before breaking into the cockpit.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[PD]

Absolutely. Babylon 5 was the 5th of the stations to be built. The others were lost in various acts of sabotage or distortions of time and space.

The point? Well, Cmdr. Sinclair explained that when we humans value something we build it again and again until we get it right. That's a nice sentiment.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[DavidBrown]

Instead of reinforcing the cockpit door, remove it and provide a separate entrance for the cockpit crew with a relatively thick bulkhead between the cockpit and the passenger cabin. If we make it impossible, under any circumstances, for passengers to get into the cockpit, we would prevent this sort of tragedy from happening again.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[crucini]

There is one practical concern, though; a rebuilt WTC would be a target for new attacks.

Give it an agile foundation, and put a kid with a joystick up on the observation deck. When he sees a plane coming, he just sways the building to avoid it.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[crucini]

Yes! So when a plane crashes into the pyramid (illustration: /\- ) it will be harmlessly deflected upwards! The cap of the pyramid will be a ten-foot iron pyramid that is not attached. That way, a bomb detonating inside the pyramid will blow the cap off, preventing a pressure buildup inside. The outsides of the pyramid will be smooth material coated in grease. That way, people can evacuate by sliding down the sides, which meets your criterion for rapid evacuation.

Only one problem - after all these precautions, how do we know the terrorists will hit the pyramids? Were they attracted by the WTC's form or function? Maybe if we paint a huge eye on the side of the pyramid the terrorists will associate it with the dollar bill and see it as the oligarchic conspiracy that controls America.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[crucini]

Yup. And let's put it out in the Nevada desert. And make fake cars in the parking lot (painted concrete cars.) And animated sillhouettes of people counting huge bags of money in the windows. So when they blast it nobody is actually hurt. Except maybe the guy who changes the lightbulbs.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[Paul Komarek]

I don't believe that suicide was ever determined beyond reasonable doubt. Did I miss something?

-Paul Komarek

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[dolanh]

Perhaps this is flamebait, but you guys are kind of missing the point with your knee-jerk reactions.

First of all, large parts of takeoff and landing in modern airliners is *already* automated.

Second of all, air traffic control towers are *already* targets. Thank god nobody targeted those today, or we would have seen much worse.

The best suggestions i've heard all day are to seal the pilots off from the rest of the airplane (still doesn't fix the semtex problem), and to place plainclothes security on flights.

Anyone else actually have any decent ideas or are people more interested in James Bond-ian fantasies of Bloefeld controlling the plane with a joystick?

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[hardburn]

everyone knows that most (all?) security can be broken

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[meldroc]

Posting armed security personnel on the flights would be the best plan. Not only would it be effective against hijackers, it would also have the welcome side effect of making the crews prepared to deal with air rage incidents.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[DunbarTheInept]

I think you are operating under the assumption that the passengers knew what the hijackers were planning on doing. It wouldn't surprise me if the hijakers managed to keep the passengers ignorant of what they were really planning.

Sure, you'd be willing to rush the hijakers if you *knew* they were going to ram the plan into a building. But if you just thought they were going to land at a different airport and begin negotiations, would you still be willing to give it a try then? I think at that point you'd still be in the "nice doggy" stage of diplomacy ("Diplomacy means saying 'nice doggie' until you can find a stick.") If you thought you were going to be landing, you'd probably want to wait for the landing before trying anything drastic.

Re:rebuilding the towers...

[NMerriam]

The egyptian government was never willing to accept it (nor his family) because of the taboo on suicide in islam. But he said something before taking the plane down (can't remember what right now) along the lines of a suicidal goodbye, and he was having a lot of personal issues at home with his family. it was open and closed pretty fast by the NTSB, FBI and everyone else...

News Links

[FFFish]

From a site that seems to be working well:

World Leaders react -- "The following are reactions from around the world to the disasters at New York's World Trade Centre and the Pentagon."

Related Links -- US Gov't, US Military, NYC, Airlines, and Anti-Terrorism Resources.

Who Dunnit -- the BBC "Within minutes of the horrific chain of events unfolding at the World Trade Center, information began emerging suggesting it was not a terrible accident but a terrorist attack."

World Shock -- BBC "The attacks on New York and Washington have brought swift reactions of horror and condemnation from around the world."

Notable quotable: "But Iraqi television played a patriotic song that begins "Down with America!" as it showed the World Trade Center's towers falling, The Associated Press news agency reported."

America has made a permanent enemy of Iraq. I can't imagine how that will ever be changed. :-(

Also worth noting that many mid-East leaders of all stripes and colours are denouncing this terrorist act.

Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.

The more I watch this on television, the less real it becomes. Repetition = numb.

Re:News Links

[geekoid]

Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush.

This is true, we need to prevent the kind of knee jerk reaction that created interment camps for the Japanese American.


This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians

Terrorist orginizations are global, Bin Laden(as an example) has a great many people in the origization he leads.

At this time AFAIK, there has been no proof of whom is behind this terible and cowardly act.

The mid east was the first reaction to the OK bombings.

Re:News Links

[FFFish]

Troops deployed in response to Pentagon attack -- (Canada's) National Post. Please ignore the very, very tacky graphics and tabloid-like banner.

Canadian border open, airline travellers stranded -- ditto. Note that many aircraft were diverted to Canadian airports. If you know someone who was on a flight, they may be in Canada right now.

The National newscast says that the US military just brought in an aircraft to Vancouver (BC) airport; no news on why.

Canada dot com -- looks like WIC (a media conglomerate) has created a site that encompasses news from BCTV, Vancouver Sun, etc. I can't get the links to work, but some look interesting.

Christian Science Monitor -- don't be put off by the title: it's a *very* high-quality paper.

The Village Voice -- not sure how high-quality this will be, but it has an amazing photo, plus information on the DFLP.

Boston Globe -- again, good quality reporting. There's a Breaking News page as well. Indeed, their breaking news is great.

PLEASE POST LINKS TO FOREIGN MEDIA. I've been searching, but I simply don't know the names for any English foreign media, save the BBC.

Re:News Links

[FFFish]

Without doubt, there are wingnuts within the USA currently whooping it up that the country was attacked.

Which, I think, would just prove that there are deeply fucked-up people the world over.

Rather than judge entire nations/cultures based on a couple photographs of some fucked-up people, it'd be a bit more wise to seek out better information on the reaction of the population as a whole.

IF most of [name your most-hated mid-East country here] reacts with joy, then I think one can justifiably react angrily toward them.

Otherwise, you'd just be punishing a majority of innocents for the actions of a fucked-up minority.

Re:News Links

[ACK!!]

Gosh as I watch television, it has hard not to be repulsed at watching kids in lebanon walking around with Palestinian flags celebrating the loss of life here.

It is hard to restrain the anger and the hate. Even though, I should and I will.

A very small radical group of thousands of people in Palestine, Iraq, Iran and other places are dancing in the streets on the symbolic backs of our dead.

Sure that makes me feel very moderate.

I understand you are pleading for Americans to make sure they know who is behind this.

The leaders of Mid-East want the US to buy their oil and other stuff so they want to appear moderate. The people themselves are looking very barbaric right now.

Re:News Links

[larien]

America has made a permanent enemy of Iraq. I can't imagine how that will ever be changed. :-(

Think back a mere 15 years to our view on the USSR; half the country was afraid of a nuclear holocaust as USA and USSR blew each other up, but now they are allies, albeit not very close ones. Given the religous views prevalent in Iraq, it makes such a transformation unlikely (USSR was Communist, but religous views are, IMHO, harder to change). However, it's still possible but likely to require the removal of Saddam Hussein from power. Things change, sometimes faster than you can imagine.

In any event, I think it most likely that some religous group perpetrated this terrible act as religous fundamentals are the most likely to be willing to die for their cause.

Re:News Links

[jafac]

Don't paint the whole middle east with the same brush?

How about the same brush these "Martyrs" painted US with? The innocent civillians, women and children who died this morning? Did these people build houses in the West Bank? Did these people deny jobs to Palestinians in Israel?

If there's any misplaced rage or hatred directed at other peoples in the Middle East, if any innocent person is killed in the revenge process that will definately ensue from today's action - the responsibility for this falls squarly on the shoulders of:

The "Martyrs" who perpetrated this act. Now roasting in hell.
The others in their organizations that helped plan and prepare this.
The political leaders of the Middle East and their bloodthirsty rhetoric that encourage this.
The people we see on TV, cheering as footage of this event is played over and over.
The moslems in the United States and elsewhere who send money to FUND these groups and their activities.
The religious leaders of the Islamic religion, both in the Middle East, and in the US, and elsewhere, who preach hatred and intolerance of Amercans and Jews and anyone who is not a Moslem - don't tell me that I'm racist for saying this, I have moslem friends, and they tell me what they hear in the mosque.

These people could not have done their own cause a more gross disservice. They shall now reap what they have sown.

Re:News Links

[elmegil]

How many people are staying home in these places? How much you wanna bet we never see any coverage of that?

Re:News Links

[megaduck]

First of all, thanks for the links.

Yeah, many Middle Eastern leaders are denouncing this. That's merely a "cover your ass" move and it's almost a brainstem function for governmental leaders. Actions speak louder than words, and today was a pretty big action by somebody.

This was an Act of War by any standard definition. If it was a radical terrorist group, then then anyone harboring him has two choices:

1. Give up the responsible party.
2. Go to war with the United States.

Frankly, neither Afghanistan or Palestine seems likely to take option 1. Personally, I hope that it's just a cell that we can vent our wrath upon instead of a state-backed thing. Because if there is even a hint of national backing, then may God have mercy on their souls.

Re:News Links

[sigwinch]

Also worth noting that many mid-East leaders of all stripes and colours are denouncing this terrorist act. Don't paint all the mid-East with one brush. This terrorist attack was the action of a very, very small radical group that is roundly despised by many mid-East civilians.

Is it even certain yet that the attackers are Middle Eastern? After the Murrah building bombing in Oklahoma City there was considerable harrasment of Middle Eastern immigrants in the area, it being a forgone conclusion that those goddamn raghead extremist fureners did it. Which looked pretty stupid when it turned out to have been an American, and a former US soldier at that!

People, remember that there are plenty of violent, organized fools right here in the US: anarchists, cults, people who think the South Shall Rise Again, and so forth. It does look suspiciously like a foreign attack, but don't jump to conclusions. There will be a hell of a lot of evidence, from surveillance tapes at the airports where they embarked, to radio reports from the pilots, perhaps even cell-phone reports from airline passengers. FBI field agents were no doubt on their way to the airports within a couple of hours of the attacks. If these terrorists are as incompentent as terrorists usually are, there will be tons of good, solid evidence against them, and in the meantime it would be a Bad Thing to jump to any political conclusions.

As for the Palestinians and Iraqis celebrating: big deal. If California slid off into the sea, they'd celebrate. Condeming the US is a hobby/spectator sport for them.

Re:News Links

[sigwinch]

Very true, and, while I sincerely hope the U.S. identifies those responsible and narrowly targets any retaliation, many mid-East civilians also celebrated the attack...

As did many Americans celebrate the death of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers in their bunkers, after which they put "Nuke Iraq" bumper stickers on their cars (remember those?). Judge not lest you be judged.

Re:News Links

[Pig Hogger]

The "Martyrs" who perpetrated this act. Now roasting in hell.

They are indeed martyrs; they performed the ultimate sacrifice for the cause they were fighting for. And for this, they were promised a place in heaven by their mollahs.

The political leaders of the Middle East and their bloodthirsty rhetoric that encourage this.

Yeah, israeli leaders are quite savages; their treatment of the palestinians over the years has been pretty appaling.

The people we see on TV, cheering as footage of this event is played over and over.

Hey! All their life, all they've seen was bullets and bombs coming from jews, bullets and bombs that have been largely funded by the United States. It's quite normal to see them cheer then the main sponsor of their oppressors has been hurt.

How many jews around the world cheers each time a palestinian house is bulldozed in Gaza, or some rock-toting arab kid is shot dead by well-armed israeli troops?

The moslems in the United States and elsewhere who send money to FUND these groups and their activities.

How about the american jews who send money to israel to fund their state-terrorism?

How about the american jews who control the medias (just watch the generic of anything you see on TV) and thus control the opinion in order to subvert democracy for it to support israel?

The religious leaders of the Islamic religion, both in the Middle East, and in the US, and elsewhere, who preach hatred and intolerance of Amercans and Jews and anyone who is not a Moslem - don't tell me that I'm racist for saying this, I have moslem friends, and they tell me what they hear in the mosque.

The jews who relentlessly paint arabs as ignorant, intolerant racist bigots, while all they do is defend their own country that has been stolen from them thanks to horribly misguided policy achieved through subversion of their democratic institutions?

These people could not have done their own cause a more gross disservice. They shall now reap what they have sown.

Indeed, the americans are reaping what they have sown with their horribly misguided, self-centered foreign and economic policies...

Re:News Links

[SuperRob]

I fully agree. I cannot beleive that other human beings would willfully CELEBRATE the cowardly murder of innocent life such as the images I saw from Palastine today.

I have never seen our country dancing in the streets when we attacked anyone ...

Re:News Links

[tftp]

One of russian newspapers: infamous Pravda. The translation is awful but you can get the news.

Re:News Links

[Cplus]

I can understand how one might think that CNN would have the ability to pick and choose what they show, certainly that is true, but do realize that this did happen and that it would have have been unethical of any news organization to not cover it.

The world is not out to get you.

Re:News Links

[ACK!!]

This I will reply to. It is unfair to say that the American media is not concerned about the loss of life in Palestine.

If you said the media is unconcerned about the loss of life in Africa or in Cambodia during the seventies for example I would have agreed.

However, not only does the media cover the Mid East crisis but they keep repeating with every casualty toll that the majority of casualties are from Palistinian.

Re:News Links

[jafac]

Excuse me, Mr. STUPID FUCKHEAD Jews-run-the-world-and-control-the-media conspiracy theorist.

But flying a passenger jet into a building filled with civilians is NOT "defending their own country". That's not the opinion of someone brainwashed by a Jewish-controlled media machine. That's the opinion of a civilized human being. You should try being one sometime.

The ones who did this, and those who supported them, either materially, or ideologically, should be put down like the dogs they are.

Yes, I'm saying that includes you, fuckwad.

The fine line...

[digitac]

How do we tell when we have crossed the line between 'Live and let live' and 'Kill or be killed'?

If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

-digitac

Re:The fine line...

[mlh1996]

If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

Yes.

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

Yes.

So which is worse? You tell me.

Don't be scared -- that's what they want.

Re:The fine line...

[IronChef]

If we retaliate, will it spawn more violence?

Maybe.

If we fail to retaliate, do we invite more terrorism?

Definitely.

And, when faced with such a choice, I'll gamble on the "maybe." Bombs away.

Evil is Evil

[5foot2]

My heart goes out to your friends families, and to you John. To all the people who have, or will lose someone do to this. I truely feel for you all.

Lets not forget evil is evil and technology has nothing to do with that fact. It's just the means to an end for the evil.

There May Still Be Hope

[CritterNYC]

I have heard first and second-hand accounts that the whole World Trade Center complex began evacuating after the 1st plane hit. A friend was on th 61st floor of tower 1, was asked to evacuate, was in the stairwell when the 2nd plane hit. He made it out ok. I just heard secondhand reports of people as high up as th 88th floor of tower 1 getting out ok. My friend's father (staying here tonight) was across the street in front of Deutsche Bank when the 2nd plane hit. He hid behind the big pillars holding up the balcony to avoid the debris and then got as far away from the towers as possible.

Unfortunately, it looks like there were hundreds of people on the ground by the towers watching the fires burn, both when the 2nd plane hit... and when the 1st tower fell.

I've been listing my friends who make it out safe on my website, as well as adding an information I get from 1st and 2nd hand accounts of people who were there. All said it was gruesome, even after just the 1st plane hit. Pictures and a live webcam are on my site. SOMEONE PLEASE MIRROR the terrorism and webcam subsite so I don't get Slashdotted.

http://johnhaller.com/jh/terrorist/

I will also be creating a site tonight to try and help people get in touch and find people affected by this. I will post more when I have it up.

Best wishes for all everyone knows and loves to make it home safe.

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[FFFish]

Anyone with information on survivor rates, please post them!

Any geeks in the Manhattan area could perhaps start collecting names and posting them. Perhaps Slashdot can sponsor a page to help collate the names.

Re:There May Still Be Hope

[merlin_jim]

I spoke with a friend who was on one of the top five floors of Tower One, the second tower to be hit. Actually, I spoke to the guy that was talking on the phone with him at the time. When the first tower (Tower Two) was hit, he said "There's been some kind of bomb or something, we're evacuating, I gotta go." (click)

So, they started evacuating both towers when the first plane hit... I can imagine that many people got out. Noone's heard from him since then, of course... but that's not exactly unusual today.

Hope your friend is okay, Jon

[Randy Rathbun]

Fortunately the folks I know in NYC are in different parts of LI. Have heard from them all. Before I got calls, however, it was kind of tense for a few hours.

And don't worry about the cell phone. I leave mine at home half the time, or leave it under the front seat of my car, or someplace else. It is always on, and the batteries spend more time without a charge than with.

Notes for the day...

[Ron Harwood]

It's International Peace Day and the anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks...

It's ironic and sad...

Re:Notes for the day...

[andy@petdance.com]

anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks...

It's ironic and sad...

It's almost certianly NOT ironic, or unintentional. Remember, Camp David was a target as well.

And thanks to all who flamed Katz for his drivel, saving me the bother and profanity.

Re:Notes for the day...

[rjamestaylor]

It's International Peace Day and the anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks... It's ironic and sad...

Yes, sad. But not ironic -- I think it's an intentional slap in the face of the Peace Accord.

Re:Notes for the day...

[Blue Neon Head]

"and the anniversary of the start of the 1978 Camp David Peace Accord talks... "

Ironic? How about intentional?

Re:Notes for the day...

[Angst Badger]

It is also the anniversary of the groundbreaking for the construction of the Pentagon back in 1941. Pure coincidence, I'm sure, but an interesting one.

One heart.

Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[typical geek]

and not as interested in low tech, face to face survelliance. Somewhat like a certain web page, the US intelligence community believes there is a high tech solution to every problem.

When your biggest enemy is Russia, almost as technically advanced as you, this may make sense.

When your biggest enemy is a terrorist living in the mountains of Asia, and plotting an attach face to face over Coleman lantern light, the best spy satellites in the world won't help you, you need someone on site.

Iran was overthrown becuase we had no agents in the Ayatollah's movement, and this may be a similar situation.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[jafac]

Russia handled it's terrorists from Chechnya.

It wasn't pretty.

I suspect more non-prettiness will be the result of this.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Brit_in_Oz]

I feel for all those caught up in this whatever their nationality - they were certainly not all US citizens.

You are the United States Of America as you say, but it is scary how many people in your country think you are more important than the rest of the world put together. (yes I HAVE visited the US - for many months at a time, not just visiting Disneyworld either ! I have many friends over there - have you ever been out of the US ? Do you even know where Afghanistan is ?). Have you any idea how much resentment there is against the way the US behaves in the world, even in the free-world (Europe etc) ?

NOTHING excuses this outrage, but random revenge attacks would be exactly the same. Violence is violence is violence is violence. killing is killing is killing is killing. Every human being is someones child or parent or friend etc.

What makes the US so above anyone else that it should expect to be allowed to retaliate against anything it suspects might be involved.

I hope your government shows some vision and waits until it has a good idea who did this, then targets individuals.

If you contribute to the cycle of hatred, you are as culpable as anyone else.

(still I guess it is difficult to explain this to a country with 200 yr out of date gun laws - yes I mean the US - which severely restricts your liberty)

Once again - I CONDEM THIS OUTRAGE AND THOSE WHO DID IT - BE CLEAR ON THAT.

Re:Well, US intelligence is enamored of high tech

[Decimal]

We don't need a trial, a hearing, or anything like that. We're the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We shouldn't be fucked with like this.

In other words, your country has the biggest penis, so it's far worse for anyone to fuck with the U.S. than any other country. And of course, it's not really significant when the little podunk states get hurt. You think we should just bomb them all to be sure there's no way whoever attacked us will go unpunished.

This kind of attitude is the main reason I'm ashamed to be an American.

"Just find whoever did this and kill them." -- said very casually by a civilian interviewed on television.

:(

[garcia]

The skyline in May when I brought my gf to see Ellis Island. This is a sad sad day. To think that our children will not see the skyline as we once did :(

I am not a believer in war and I am not a believer in the loss of lives at any cost. I am trying to understand the necessity of this but I can't.

:(

Re::(

[garcia]

that obviously was not my point but apparently you people are too confused to see this.

the point was that w/o these buildings we will have a constant reminder of the pain, suffering, and bullshit that happened today.

Give me a break.

I'll skip the normal katz bashing...

[cancrman]

especially the line about

First of all I just want to say PLEASE GIVE BLOOD IF YOU CAN. It doesn't matter where in the states you are, it matters. To use a misplaced quote, 'Just do it'.

Secondly, I express my deepest sorrows and condolences to anyone that has lost or had a loved one or friend injured in this attack. I does not need to be said how reproachful such a thing is.

But to bring this back to a Slashdot discussion, I feel that this will mean that there will be quite a restriction on some civil liberties as a result of this. I have no idea what they will be but they can't be good. The only thing that I can picture at this time (I'm quite numb after this day so forgive me if I don't express myself rationally, and I've had a couple of beers so that might explain my spelling). Anyway the only thing that I can see are Soviet style travel restrictions. I don't know what else they can do. Well I do remember being in France years ago when police would stand on the corner with automatic weapons. However, this would not have helped prevent what happened today. But with the conservites in the whitehouse, who knows what will happen. But you know, I don't think it would matter if the Dems were in the WH either at this point. Unfortunately something symbolic will have to be done. But will it be the right thing?

Sorry for the disconnected nature of this comment.

One more thing: Where are the Clintons? NY is Hillary's state after all.

Peace to all

Re:I'll skip the normal katz bashing...

[Now15]

Bill Clinton is in Australia at the moment.

Oh, and the Australian Prime Minister is currently in Washington.

(...hmmm, sounds like a fair swap to me...)

heres something from my friend in new york

[psychalgia]

she lives at wagner edu, a short distance from the WTC buildings:

I can't even begin to explain how I feel. Dana woke me up this
morning telling me to look out my window. I couldn't believe what I
saw. After standing amazed for a while, I saw the world trade center
collapse. Amazing. It's like a disaster movie, I still can't
believe it's happening.

The entire floor is bonding and finding support from each other.
Classes have been cancelled today, and probably tomorrow. There are
buses going to local hospitals with blood donors. Many people have
family that worked at the World Trade Center, and it's hard to get
info.

It's so strange to look out at the skyline... the smoke is starting
to clear a bit, but how is it NY without those buildings?

Thank you all for your support, I will keep trying to call, but the
lines are really busy. "

My Prayers go out to you all

[Angreallabeau]

My name is Ryan Peterson and I live in Victoria, BC, Canada. I just wanted to let every American know that this has hit Canada hard. My entire office is in shocked and you have our good thoughts and prayers. As your neighbor, I know we will do anything you ask of us. Right now, all I can do is pray for you all.

I know I can honestly say - that my entire nation is grieving for your loss.

My thoughts and Prayers to you all.

Love,

-Ryan Peterson
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re:My Prayers go out to you all

[dstone]

Also here in downtown Vancouver. More than a few businesses and restaurants spontaneously closed today in response. Starbucks, included.

Let's talk about compassion for the living and leave the justice and further violence for another day.

a list of the buisnesses at the WTC

[manuellabor2]

i have composed a buisness directory from a cached copy of http://www.onisland.com/wtc/bizdir/ and put it on my host here's the 583K HTML file (not recommended) http://janitor61.home.mindspring.com/list/bdir.htm here's a 24K ZIP file (recommended) http://janitor61.home.mindspring.com/list/bdir.zip mindspring will have my head for this my apologies if this has been posted in another form

Technology?

[FTL]

> Technology turns planes into weapons

What technology? Guy walks into a plane, shoots pilots, and turns the yoke. These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago. What is this rant about technology for?

Re:Technology?

[aozilla]

These events could have happened at any time since the towers were first constructed 30 years ago.

The towers were specifically built to withstand a direct hit from a 707, which was the largest plane at the time of construction. Whether or not it they actually would have withstood such a hit is unknown, of course.

Re:Technology?

[ackthpt]

Phone call from a flight attendant aboard one of the jets which hit the WTC, was that the hijackers (two of them) stabbed flight crew, before breaking into the flight deck. Not even using guns, but relying on strength in numbers.

As for technology, I first heard over the radio and gained first images of what was going on from a small TV in a nearby office. The internet, CNN, and the usual sites were all slashdotted.

As 3 jets of 5 hit what appear to be the intended targets, I expect the hijackers knew something about how to take over the controls enough to fly the jets into their targets. The jet which crashed in PA was heard, from mountain bikers on the ground, to rev the engines a couple times before crashing. From that I draw the conclusion of a struggle to control the aircraft, by hijackers or flight crew. Hopefully recovered flight recorders will shed some light on who did this.

Please.

[michaelo]

Please don't get rassistic of all this. Please notice that this isn't an act of "the Palestinians" or something like this.

This is the act of a bunch of mad people. Even if the percantage of mad persons might be higher in some peoples - it wasn't a people who did this.
Please keep that in mind.
Thanks.
J.

Re:Please.

[TWR]

Please notice that this isn't an act of "the Palestinians" or something like this

No, but notice that "the Palestinians" are dancing in the streets in joy. Kill them.

Remember Amalek.

-jon

Re:Please.

[TWR]

You're a fucking moron. The USS Vincenze shot down a jet which was (1) coming towards them and (2) did not identify themselves. They thought it was an attack. They responded. They were horrified when they found out that it was a civilian jet liner. The US paid reparations and apologized profusely.

To begin to compare that to what Bin Laden and his followers did shows you are a reprehensible bastard. And one too cowardly to even sign his name.

-jon

Bad timing

[autocracy]

I'll go to the point of responding somewhat to the article in saying that it sounds much like somebody read Debt of Honor and put a spin on it when they did this.

As for the rest, I'd think that now would be a good time to not post articles from JonKatz. Quite frankly his comments are usually rimshot, especially now. And it's not his right to comment that I'm complainin about - everyone has that right here. It's his right to be front page material. Slashdot has its ups, the prior 3 articles fitting there, and it has its downs - and this one is way down there. JonKatz (whether you be a person or an alternate account for some other name on the site), please read your articles before you think to put them on the site, and make sure that they both make sense, and have a point rather than are just there - and in some cases just there and insensitive.

Re:Bad timing

[jacobito]

I think you're the one being insensitive here. Katz has as much of a right to post his feelings about what happened -- and apparently today's events have hit him personally -- as anyone else. His article was sincere and heartfelt. How dare you and others like you jump all over him like this, when he is mourning like the rest of the country.

It is your reply that is an example of bad timing. I know you and your vocal minority have made up your minds about Katz and are going to hate what he says whenever he says it, but save your stupid kneejerk reactions for some other time. They're truly inappropriate.

Re:Bad timing

[autocracy]

Everybody has every right to post to this site. I just don't believe that Katz has kept his right to post on the front page of it. This article didn't seem to me, at least, like some heart felt sorrow article. Katz has the incredible ability to sound like a mindless being when he writes. I truly doubt that he is such (then again - experimental slaschode?), and I believe that anybody not shocked by the horror of this event is incapable of true emotion and I don't doubt that he was shocked. Obviously from the moderation I've recieved, the parent to this is quite controversial.

So, to give clear understanding of what I intend to say - This bombing was tragic. Katz's article really felt like a bad news report that didn't fit. We all mourn those hurt or inujured and pray for their families. I believe Katz shouldn't have front page rights. Anybody still alive who held a known part in the execution of this horrible act should suffer a dull drill bit. Thank you.

(OT)Page for those who are alive in NYC

[Yanna]

This website is meant for everyone who is caught in NYC and need to communicate their families/ friends that they are alive and ok.

It is said that cell phones are unusable, so people can post their names to make a list of survivors.

How did the plane get to the pentagon?

[-douggy]

Surely if the WTC has been hit twice they have a way of defending the pentagon. I know missiles seems almost as awful but what if it had been the whitehouse?

And yet...

[krmt]

And yet it's still the people that matter, not the technology. We all know that, and despite this being a site for nerds, this is stuff that Matters. I don't know anyone in New York, and I'm all the way out here in California, but every five minutes I feel like I'm going to break out in tears just from what I've heard and read. I am scared, saddened, and humbled by this today.

This isn't Armageddon. That sounds too much like the stupid movie and it cheapens the fact that someone somewhere is responsible for this. This is the real thing, and it's not about the planes or the black boxes or the television. It's about the people, because that's what Matters.

Mirrors of news sites; check Google.

[Forkenhoppen]

Google's front page now contains links to a few major news sites, along with links to their own mirrors of those sites. If you're trying to access a given news organization's reports on recent events, I suggest checking Google for a mirrored link.

Re:Mirrors of news sites; check Google.

[Faux_Pseudo]

In case we needed any perspective on how big these events are the fact that Google has made change like this to their main page makes the point all the more.

unsure of how to behave

[Glowing Fish]

After I found out just how bad the disaster was, I was afraid of stepping outside, for fear that going about my normal life would be somehow disrespectful. But we needed food (and I, for the fifth time in my life, needed some alcohol) so I decided to go to the bank and to the store.

Here, in Portland, OR every one seems pretty normal. People are talking about it, and of course everyone is upset, but it seems like people are not going into hysterics. People seem to be going about their daily lives. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

the only thing that is really different is...no planes in the sky

Re: unsure of how to behave

[geekoid]

Hello fellow Portlander.

Its a good thing. We can't cower, or they win.

we must also be sure we don't let our rights get taken away in the name of 'anti-terrorism'

but for the immediate, find out when the Red-Cross wants you to give blood, and do so.

I felt the same way when I left for work this morning, the best I could think to do was wear black, and put my flag at half-staff.

Re: unsure of how to behave

[zulux]

I agree!

I wept when I saw footage of the second jet hit the WTC - I was looking out the window and saw a mom taking het child out for a walk. There was no terror is her eyes, and I knew that we have won. The terrorist have lost.

War

[FortKnox]

As you've probably read in the other articles (and which will eventually bleed into this article) is how people are shunning others comparing this to Pearl Harbor and war.

I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.

Your first reaction is to use our strength to fight back, but as the days start to come between present and this tragedy, you'll find out how terrorist cells work.

Their is very little communication between the cells, and the cells are very sparcely located. Result? Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.

We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.

Re:War

[StevenMaurer]

It's a lot easier than many people think.

Terrorists, like soldiers, must be trained to be effective. Not everybody knows how to penetrate international borders, hijack a plane, or build a bomb. In fact, trying to do so without training can be very dangerous to your health.

Deprive potential terrorists the necessary means, logistical support, and training and the most of the problem goes away. Don't believe me? Israel has pursued a strategy of killing Palestilian bomb makers, and now more Palestinians are dying trying to build or deliver bombs than ever get to the "suicide bombing" part. Their attacks have become progressively less effective.

The truth is that the U.S. has not been particularly aggressive going after regimes that use terrorism. There are some economic and travel restrictions on Lybia, Afghanistan, etc, but that's about it. The little the U.S. does do is typically limited in scope and only in "response" to terrorist acts. Almost none of it is pro-active.

If the U.S. decides to seriously go after the states that train, harbor, and encourage terrorists, terrorism will be reduced to a tiny annoyance in short order. I am not certain that even in the face of this abomination the U.S. would pursue such an extended action, as it is always very reticent to commit its troops directly, but if it doesn't happen after this, it never will.

Re:War

[dachshund]

If the U.S. decides to seriously go after the states that train, harbor, and encourage terrorists

Amen. Any state that is giving a single dollar to terrorist organizations should be given a strong warning. Give money to terrorists and you'd better find another planet to live on.

PS CNN tells me that we just started bombing Afghanistan. Isn't this a bit soon?

Re:War

[PD]

The explosions in Kabul were caused by non-Taliban forces taking advantage of the situation to attack the Taliban stronghold. The Taliban does not control the entire country of Afghanistan. Training and equipping these rebels is one possible thing that I think the government will explore, but I fear what we will reap 20 or 30 years from now when the people we helped turn out to be just like the Taliban, but with a different name.

Anyway, these people are STUPID. WHY THE HELL would they decide to attack now and complicate everything. When the situation worldwide is as grim as it is, why the HELL would they pick this moment to light off a string of firecrackers???

I am relatively happy that here in the U.S. calls for blood are relatively scarce (with the exception of the blockheaded defense "expert" I was listening to on MSNBC. He was suggesting that we start assasinating people we identify as threats.)

I have a better suggestion. Assasination might be something we have to do in the future, but right now we must realize that the difference between us and the hijacking monsters is that we are like those who built the Library at Alexandria, and the monsters are like those who sacked and burned it. That means we pursue justice, not revenge. That means that we don't cheer in the streets when people die (shame on a few idiots in Palistine and Pakistan). That means that we pursue justice once evidence has been collected. So I agree with you. It's too soon to be bombing anyone.

Retaliation

[B. Samedi]

We should strike back. That is not in question. But we should strike back against the proper targets. We should not just attack everything we consider a terrorist because we are going to hit the wrong targets. Then when that happens we simply make another enemy. But we shouldn't be talking attack at the moment. Let that wait till tomorrow. Today we should mourn and gather our dead.

Re:Retaliation

[dstone]

We should strike back. That is not in question. But we should strike back against the proper targets.

Whoa. I sincerely hope "striking back" is still in question. Striking back will validate a terrorist organization's need to feel that they affected/disturbed/disrupted American lives. That is a very empowering thing. It's acknowledgement that the superpower considers you worth their time. Who has more to lose? More keen future awareness and stepping up reasonable protection (while keeping society free) should not be in question. That's common sense and won't result in escalation. But striking back against even one obviously "proper target" should be questioned very carefully. Do you believe your strike will be the final word? That is naive. Ask yourself... who has more to lose in a "proper" strike back and the resulting actions?

Re:Retaliation

[B. Samedi]

Whoa. I sincerely hope "striking back" is still in question.

Striking back can even be as simple as find and arresting those responsible and bringing them trial. It's what I would prefer to be honest. Lock them up for life and let them rot. I personally think a good solution is to treat them like criminals. Don't treat them like warriors but like the killers they are.

Re:Retaliation

[dstone]

Therefore the people responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent people should not be punished?

It's a tough question. Frustrating. Our regular concepts of justice and punishment are put to the test here. Consider a mass murderer put to death or in prison by our justice system. Will there be related retaliation that will kill our innocent citizens? Possibly, but highly unlikely. Now in today's case, if we dispense our idea of justice out of our system that isn't respected by a group of people with lots of resources and terrible intentions, will there be retaliation that will kill our innocent citizens? A very real possibility. And if it does happen at all, it will be nasty because of the beliefs and resources of whoever is at work here.

So if we can manage a lucid moment here amongst all the tragedy, we may well decide that punishment is in order. I just hope that we also acknowledge and accept that delivering what we believe is proper punishment may result in more innocent people being killed in retaliation. As citizens in a free (but moral) society we shouldn't have to pay with our lives in unfair situations like this, but it does happen and when we have a choice like this to make ahead of time, we should consider all possibilities.

We have a real decision facing us, but neither path is going to be very satisfying.

Re:Retaliation

[jonathan_ingram]

My heart goes out to anyone connected to someone who died today -- family, friend, co-worker. I am also genuinely scared about what your country is going to do next.

I was watching a truely scary interview today with a military analyst. He said that the US should 'strike back, and strike back quickly against the terrorists that did this'. When the interviewer pointed out that we don't know who did this, and asked which terrorist groups America should attack, the analyst said 'all of them'.

I can see a lot of innocent people being killed, a lot of countries destabilized, and an escalation in the hatred of the US coming from this. Thank god the USSR isn't still around, or we would probably be watching the nukes dropping around now.

May your personal choice of God be with you.

Re:Retaliation

[Jason Earl]

Yes, I am sure that they will feel exceptionally well validated in hell.

It is certainly possible to have "the final word." The Nazis are no longer a threat to world peace because we (and that includes more than just Americans) went into Germany and rooted them out. We then proceeded to hunt the entire world for those guilty parties that had fled. Once those folks were gone we could go about the task of rebuilding Europe (including Germany).

You can bet that when we find the bastards responsible for this that we will do likewise. Heck, it is even possible that some of our fellow Americans are responsible. It makes no difference what their nationality is. They are madmen and must be brought to justice at any price.

When we are done, those responsible, and all those people who aid them will either be in prison or dead. And the world will be safer for it. Until the next set of crazies.

Re:Retaliation

[Jason Earl]

Ha, the entire nation of Germany fought tooth and nail to keep Hitler out of our grasp. However, in the end most Germans today would tell you that they are glad that we did rid their country of Hitler.

Was the price worth it? Probably. Would it have been easier if the German people had risen up against Hitler and his cronies themselves? Definitely. If the German people had rid themselves of this madman it would have saved millions of lives. The fact that the Germans failed to remove Hitler put them in the sights of the Allied forces, and completely destroyed their country. Even so it was a close thing.

We are now at war with these terrorists and everyone that shields them or who would take their place. To do otherwise is to condemn ourselves to live in fear of the next attack. Will some of the people who are hurt be innocent victims, almost certainly. But it is not our fault that they are in the way. All things considered they should be revolting against their leaders themselves. Saving us the trouble of doing it for them.

Can you imagine living in a country that actually encouraged people to acts of terrorism like the one we witnessed today? In some parts of the world people are dancing in the street because of our dead. I can honestly say that this would not be the case if the shoe were on the other foot. If Americans had done this to Palestinians we would find the bastards responsible, and we would hand them over for "trial."

As long as their are people that are willing to do such horrible things what choice do we have but to oppose them?

Re:Retaliation

[duffbeer703]

I don't think that you have absorbed the enormity of what has happened here. There may be 10-30 THOUSAND people dead.

We need to send a strong message to every group who would consider doing such a thing that if they do, they will die.

War is a brutal, horrible thing. Unfortunately, violence & death is the only thing understood by these people.

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[Tazzy531]

This is not the solution.

Bush tried to do this. By withdrawing the US from all these conferences, he is in-effect adopting an isolationist foreign policy.
As a great superpower and with the greater interconnectivity of the world, the US needs to be more involved. Isolationism might have worked in the past where less than 1 in 5 household owned tv, nonetheless a method of communication.

This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[Ghoser777]

When Pearl Harbor was bombed, we knew who to retailiate against. There was a target we could single out and mobilize against. Here we don't know who attacked us, or how we would retaliate. It's like swatting a fly in an open field; there may not be a lot of flies, but because they are so hard to pinpoint, or even hit (since they can move freely), swatting even some of the flies is probabalistic at best.

I hope Bush has a good plan, because I have no idea what I would do in his shoes (except for maybe go back to Washington and make a comforting speech).

F-bacher

Re:This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[miracle69]

Not only is it not the same because we don't know who, but it's not the same because it is a cowardly scumsucking thing to do.

Pearl Harbor was a military attack on a military target - a target that had at least some warning (length of which is debatable).

This is a terrorist/military attack on civilian targets with civilian instruments. It's only comparison to Pearl Harbor will be the giant it stirs within the American People.

Personally, I hope we build the largest structure mankind has ever attempted on the ruins of the WTC.

Re:This isn't the same as Pearl Harbor

[frknfrk]

since they can move freely


the point would be to make sure that these terrorists cannot move freely - to enlist all the nations of the world to destroying terrorism.

of course, the United States would have to stop being a terrorist state also, maybe stop arming rebels (like they funded Usama bin Laden while he was a hailed 'freedom fighter' for Afghanistan vs. the Soviet Union).

-sam

wrong

[geekoid]

Technology turns planes into weapons.

Wrong. People turn planes into weapons.

Re:Free Parking

[remande]

I'm getting a bit sick of this sort of sentiment. What appears to be a small cell of people wreak tremendous havoc on the United States, and we have people ready to destroy a nation? No wonder so many people hate Americans. I'm beginning to hate Americans, ,and I am one.

Besides, we'd be horrified if we turned Afghanistan into a parking lot and then found out that it was the Elbonians all along.

I was there also, peoples reactions are mixed.

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

People went from amazement to shock, to anger. To put the Television on and see those kids and adults jumping around for joy that someone had struck such a blow. He we were standing on the Hudson thinking how awful it was, watching the towers fall and seeing someone else on the other side of the world jumping for joy.

I really hope that we as a nation take the correct next step, what has happend is horrible but what could come because of it chills me to the bones. On one side I want to strike back, on the other I am scared straigh shitless of what will come from the actions that are sure to follow. Our world has changed, I mean mine and everyone else. Because where you want to see it or not this is going to have an impact on all of us, not just the US. Get ready, because someone is poking the sleeping giant and I fear what will happen.

WTC pictures from the Hudson

Re:Time to wake up...

[malfunct]

And then the terrorists have won. Thats exactly what they want is to steal the power of the US by fear.

I don't advocate random attacks or large scale retaliation but I also know that we must continue to live our lives or we lost because we are controled by the people that perpetrated this attack.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[FFFish]

Pshaw. NYC is about as opposite a "City of God" as exists!

Stuff the drama, Katz.

[JimTheta]

Step off the drama, Katz. You haven't said anything particularly important or notable here; it's just the same "Pearl Harbor" hype that the established news outlets are pushing. That might work for the TV masses, but it's not appropriate here.

If you can't post substance, then please don't post. I just get the impression that you only posted because you've got this delusion of yourself as an insightful person who has insightful things to say, and you thought there would be a hole here if your name could not be found.

This article was not insightful. It was a rehash of every other "insightful" thing that has already been on the news today.

-Grant/"JimTheta"

(I know I'm gonna get troll-modded for this, but I need to say it. At least I used my real name, instead of AC'ing it, like so many others.)

Re:fp - mev

[pivko]

From Prague Czech Republic, far away from these horrible incidents, I would like to join all of you who are mourning the victims of these acts of terrorism. I hope all of the terrorists are captured and brought to justice. However, I would like to warn all the people that are now in deep emotional shock from taking unjust acts of revenge which might result to much more innocent victims. I know that there are many voices which are talking of war again yet not clear enemy. I understand that but I would like to recall that the western world is, despite such terrible actions, stil based on fundamental human rights and liberty. All the democratic nations must fight agains an international terrorism which has today shown its new, disgusting face. But such things should not make us animals.

Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[feed_me_cereal]

I fear somthing worse than random beatings of asian-americans by intolerant morons screaming "give us back our pilot" as we experienced when a US spyplane crashed in china. Everyone must make a pledge to not only be rational today, not only be rational for months, but to defend rationalism, wherever you see it diminished. There will be a wave of racism and search for scapegoats like we've never seen. Make sure this enourmous tragedy doesn't get any worse. Do not prejudge any race or person as "terroist", and be sure not to tolerate anyone who does, before they actually have been convicted. Remember, the american way is under attack. Protect it. Don't give in to witch-hunts. The only call for blood we should worry about right now is the one from the red cross!

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[dolanh]

Thank you for posting that.

One of my colleagues is a devout Muslim from Iran. He also happens to be one of the nicest, kindest people you would ever hope to meet.

In light of recent events, I don't envy his next few weeks.

Re:Remain rational for months - no witchhunts

[Arandir]

It's also the way of the rest of the world. Remember where Salem learned its trade from, who sold the slaves to us, and why there's no comparison between Manzanar and Nanking.

A new war

[[verse]Eskil]

Let us all hope this is not the start of a new war because it will be a war that no one will ever win.

I think this should be the end to violence. we do not need violence in our world, today has been yet an other proof of that, unfortionaly not the first such day.

This has lead to nothing but suffering, and any retaliation will lead to nothing but suffering and the prospect of further retaliation.

This is a tragedy no one can retaliate our way out of.

I don't know who did this, and frankly i don't care that much, I know what i need to know about the people who did this. I will never be like them.

E

last year? quite a feat

[rkanodia]

"Did you know that President Bush repealed a law last year that outlawed the hunting and execution of terrorist leaders? I will be watching to see what happens."

That would be quite a feat, since it means that President Bush has not only invented a time machine and made himself the President a couple months early, but also managed to remove legislative capabilites from Congress and vest them in himself.

"Technology turns planes into weapons???"

[-=OmegaMan=-]

You high?

How is this *remotely* a case of "technology" turning planes into weapons? It seems more to be fanatics turning planes into weapons.

And fanatics are nothing new.

Re:rebuilding the towers.. - YES.

[Olentangy]

YES!

And each tower should have one extra floor added as a memorial to those who died.

And to show that while our enemies may strike, we will always bounce back better.

-- michael

If I could I *would* mod you down...

[Sheepdot]

..not because of what you have to say, but because you are clearly speculating on something that we aren't certain about yet.

Everyone seemed pretty damn certain Oklahoma City was an outside terrorist toying with our country, we all know how that ended up.

Sheep are people that go with the flow, they are lead one direction or another. Trust me, I've dealt with a few.

So while you may or may not be correct in your assumptions, don't play victim to the moderators when you are making assumptions and speculating as to who may have done this.

The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.

Re:If I could I *would* mod you down...

[Sebastopol]

The "root of it all" may turn out to be domestic terrorism. And if so, you'd really look bad.

Thank you. This is the first objective reply I've gotten (of course, I've posted rather irrationally for the past few hours, so I can understand some of the angry words). You make a very good point that I hadn't thought of.

Your reply is exactly why I read/post to slashdot in the first place. I'd be the first to admit I don't have everything figured out, so I deliberately post my flaming, raw, unrationalized opinions to /., and I rely on the collective brainpower to either mod me down, publish an opinion that agrees with mine, or a dissenting statement that rationally disarms my position. Yours was the latter.

It's all a social experiment: I'd rather be modded as a troll on /. than beat up in real life for shooting my mouth off.

Re:Huh?

[marcop]

And if one is too calus to think about loss of life... how about a loss of two great engineering accomplishments? American Icon? American pride? Sense of safety on our turf? etc.

convergence?

Not Pearl Harbor

[Fideaux!]

I think that Daniel Schorr on NPR said it the best, "Pearl Harbor had a return address, Japan."

Even if Bin Laden did do this, whom do we attack? Where do we send the troops?

Pearl Harbor was clear cut. There was an enemy, and we knew were they were. It brought the horror of WWII home to America, and motivated and inspired the greatest wartime mobilization in history.

This attack and the reprecussions will certainly lean towards fear, confusion and sadly, isolation.

This is really a terrifying end to the American Century.

New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

It this your new Perl Harbour, or is it Nagasaki and Hiroshima coming back to haunt you ?

While the events today are of course a perverse display of violence aimed at civilians, no one should be ignorant of the fact that the U.S. themselves are not exactly virgin in the field of hitting very large amounts of civilians with no prior warning what so ever.

Another thing: There is a lot of sentiment that this is Islamic terrorists, or the like. Remember Timothy Mc. Vein ? The press was blowing that one up as a mid-east terrorist attack, until *investigation* reveiled it was in fact a genuine misguided U.S. citizen.

Think people. Don't get carried away in anger with a blind wish for vengence.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

Let me phrase it differently then, without going into the politics:

I suggest you put up a memorial, reading:
"Let all souls here rest in peace, for we shall not repeat the evil."

The text is taken from the diary of Michihiko Hachiya, written on the 8th of August 1945, when you "saved my country" in Hiroshima.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

Hey, Mr. Polite AC, did you read my post ??

I do by no means support attacks on civilians, no matter what weapon is used (and a passenger aircraft turned out to be an efficient weapon today). Let me repeat so that you maybe understand: I do not support murdering civilians !

What I'm worried about, is that some prejudicious freak is going to bomb half the world because not doing so would be the end of his political career - because his people expects retaliation.

Retaliation without any form of justification.

That is my worry.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

In 1998 you bombed a chemical factory on the grounds that "it produced chemical weapons" and it was "owned by Osama Bin Laden".

Both "facts" turned out to be untrue, later.

Sure it can't have been more than a few hundred workers. Accidents happen. But as far as I know, the U.S. is not at war with Afghanistan.

I'm not trying to balance accounts here - I'm just trying to make people reflect on what has happened, and why pointing your guns in random directions looking for a scapegoat will only backfire, again.

When you bite, make damn sure you bite the right dog.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

The civilian populations of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were warned the day before the bombings to evacuate the area.

So there were no casualties other than military personnel I presume? Come on... If a waning doesn't make a difference, it doesn't matter.

I heard that some guy publishing a small magazine in NY was warned about this three weeks ago. Still, it made no difference.

Given that I'm sure you can point out plenty of other things that my country has done that you don't like.

Now you totally miss the point.

However the fact that you can attack my country in this day of tragedy is incredible.

I am not attacking you. I am trying to tell you that you should carefully consider your response to this.

The fact that you take this as an attack, is *exactly* what worries me.

"Oestergaard": very personally from an American to you: go fuck yourself.

That one you'll get for free.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[slashdot2.2sucks]

The irony of your statement is absolutely disgusting. To speak of a country ignorant of its evil actions, Japan is the worst example. During WWII, Japan's actions toward the people of China were as terrible as the Nazi mass murders. Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking.

To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of Japanese society denies that they took place at all.

Yes non-military citizens did die from the atom bombs and that was a horrible tragedy, but they were knowing located very near strategic military bases, and the actions of Japan were evil and had to be stoped.

Re:New perl harbour, or?

[Oestergaard]

Tell me, Oestergaard == Oesterreich?
Is is a germanism to say: ", or?" at the end of a sentence (wahr, oder? und ja, ich spreche deutsch, und 2 andere "indogermanische" sprachen)

Nice try. If you had a look at my homepage you would know that this is in fact my name, and that I am not german or austrian.

In my country's and my people's moment of tragedy, you want to point out that we are not perfect either.

Exactly. And I hope that you will remember that the world at large is not perfect.

I hoped that this could make people reflect on the situation, and perhaps think a little before starting an all-out war on the middle east (with the possibility of finding out in a year from now that the tragedy was inflicted by a native U.S. militia).

Then I point out that the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were warned, and you say that it doesn't matter anyway, as you presumable know (or just don't care) that their governments did not take the threat seriously and refused to evacuate the area, so suddenly it doesn't count if the people don't heed the warning.

As I stated somewhere else in this thread, a warning does not matter if it does not make a difference. Clearly, you will not claim that the majority of the casualties in those two bombings were military personnel.

I could point out other bombings (such as the chemical factory bombing in 1998) where civilians were attacked without prior warning. But that doesn't matter. I am not trying to balance accounts here. I am trying to make you *think*.

Why don't you point out the Allied firebombing in Germany and Austria and the resulting civilian deaths? Or better, why don't you just fucking forget WWII? It's over and the people involved are almost all dead

I did not name the article under which this thread is living "Perl Harbor". I did not start talking about WWII. But I found that since we were talking past events anyway, the two japanese bombings would be a convenient analogy to make people *think*.

I am not saying that the actions here were justified in any way, and I can't believe you seem to think that was what I wanted to say.

You have the right to hate my country and my people, which is the only emotion I can think of for speaking out against my country in an incredible moment of tragedy (and then following up with inconsistent logic in your ridiculous reply).

Why is it that you think I hate you? This is exactly what worries me.

This was also the sentiment in the second one of Bush's addresses to the public. After world leaders had expressed their deepest sympathy for the U.S. and condemned the terrorist action, Bush replied with something that resembled a warning to countries of the world. That the U.S. would retaliate swiftly, and that the U.S. would find out who did this. That no non-U.S. country should feel safe.

This is exactly the same sentiment I feel in a lot of the posts here at /.

You are not alone - terrorism can hit any democracy in the world, and we all feel deeply with you.

And that is why I do not want you to retaliate with another terrorist action against some foreign nation, because of blood thirst and desire for vengence rather than because of solid proof.

And I have the right to think you are a prick.

Absolutely.

And I retain the right to be very very worried and hope that there are not too many of your kind in positions of authority in the U.S.

Madness

[Jeff Bell]

As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world.

And if you upstairs neighbors happen to be the subject of one of those rumors, too bad. You'll just be another drug^H^H^H^H... er I mean terrorist related related death.

Re:Madness

[Have Blue]

That's no worse a fate than that suffered by thousands of people dying in the rubble of the World Trade Center as we speak.

Cambridge/Boston Update

[patiwat]

Cambridge/Boston Update

- Both the AA and UA planes that hit the WTC came from Boston Logan and bound for LA

- 56 and 81 passengers per plane

- AA's family response number is 1-800-245-0999, UA's number is 1-800-932-8555

- The pilot and crew of one of the planes were from the Boston area

- Both planes stayed overnight in Logan airport the night before

- Families of passengers can go to the Hyatt where an emergency center is being set up

- CTO and co-founder of Akamai on one plane

- Donate blood at Beth Israel, or 25 Stuart St, or other centers. Appointments not needed, but expect long lines. Don't hesitate to give tomorrow or later this week.

- Cellular 911 seeing major congestion problems, PLEASE DON'T USE CELLULAR 911 UNLESS ABOSOLUTELY NECCESARY

- Logan Airport was surprised about the incident - claims to have known anything only after crash

- Tall buildings evacuated, including Hancock and Prudential

- Federal employees sent home

- Most non-critical city employees sent home

- Many colleges closing

- Most schools, including after-school programs, not closed

- T rides for free, extra capacity hauled out to accomidate people going home

- Northeast Amtrack shut down, including Boston-DC

- 9th district primary elections going on as scheduled

- MIT not cancelling classes, but attendance is optional, cars not allowed to enter inside campus, vigil at 5pm in front of Student Center

- No major police presense or activities (yet)

- Otherwise a nice day, sunny and a good wind. Perfect day for sailing if I weren't feeling so bad. People crying and running around the corridors. Quiet everywhere. Please don't rush to conclusions and bomb anybody until somebody takes claim and it can be substantiated. Note that Taliban, Hamas, DFLP, Jihad, and Arafat have explicitely denied involvement.

patiwat@NOSPAM.mit.edu

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[tshak]

Well, of course it was RELIGION. But some people forget that religion A != religion B. To assume that religion, in and of itself, is the root of this evil, is a sign of crass incompetance and illogic. A better stance would be to accuse "unsubstantiated religious dogma", which is what also drove the nazis, among others.

Of course, this thought keeps getting modded down as a troll by a few brainwashed sheep... but go ahead and mod me down, I've got plenty of karma to kill...

Re:Time to wake up...

[TWR]

The only way we can be safe, is by treating the rest of the world with respect instead of pushing people around so we can get richer.

No, the only way we can be safe is by getting rid of the fucks who inspire, incite, and fund this. We KNOW who pays for terrorism. Hell, Iran has it as an entry in their offical state budget! Bomb the fuckers.

We may not know exactly who did this ONE atrocity, but we know the names and the addresses of the people responsible for many others. Get them now. Never give them quarter. This is war, and people who talk about "treating the world with respect" should look up "Sudatenland" in their encyclopedias.

-jon

Pictures of the World Trade Center

[sportal]

Here are some more World Trade Center Photos. http://www.nycwireless.net/Images/wtc2/

#1467 - 1472 were taken before the second tower collapsed.
#1473 - 1474 is the National Guard deployed on Lexington Ave.
#1775 - 1746 are people trying to get out of Manhattan waiting at a bus stop.
#1477 - 1490 is lower Manhattan at 3pm.
#1491 - 1496 is two blocks from the world trade center at 3pm.
#1497 is a fire boat on the Hudson river.
#1499 - 1503 is the world trade center an surrounding buildings
#1505 is a fire truck damaged by the collapse 2 blocks away from the WTC.
#1507 - 1510 is the WTC.
#1511 - 1512 is a neighboring building.
#1513 - 1515 is the surrounding area to the WTC.

Everyone is free to forward these pictures, and use them without permission. Mirrors are welcome. --Terry

Re:Huh?

[ConceptJunkie]

I think you completely missed his point. Katz clearly meant that the loss of life _is_ the horrific convergence. Let's stick to criticizing what Katz actually says.

When else in history could a country at peace be suddenly subject to such devastating loss? The last 100 years or so has seen exactly what Katz said...

Dead Link

[KarmaBlackballed]

http://kinya.com/view.html

Very black day around the world.

Re:Huh?

[greenrd]

You're out of touch with humanity, Jon Katz.

I don't know about that. Katz is just a "columnist" (and I use that word in a very loose sense) paid to produce tripe regularly. Whether he actually believes what he writes is doubtful, and rather besides the point.

I was going to say it's a bit sickening to exploit such a horrific tragedy for petty journalistic gain, but I'm not really sure what Katz's motives are in posting this, so I'll leave it at that.

Thank you Jon

[baptiste]

For an excellent and moving piece - you may catch flak for your writings from all sorts of people, even myself aat times. But you and the rest of the /. team have done a great job today in filling a void left when the news sites crumbled.

As a fellow American - I thank you.

I wonder...

[Brian Kendig]

I wonder whether Jay Leno will leave the Twin Towers on the skyline backdrop to his set.

I hope so. I hope he makes a statement about how he's leaving them there because the real things will be rebuilt someday soon.

In the face of this tragedy, I'm glad to see world leaders speaking out in support of the United States. Perhaps this will end up being a sobering moment across the globe, and perhaps it'll end up bringing people together more than driving them apart.

Media brownout

[Yarn]

Isolating the dazed/confused side of me, I am suprised at the poor quality of the media coverage. It seems that they decided to rerun the same poor quality clip repeatedly, on all channels. It just left me feeling numb. Only now are they properly speculating on the who/how/where/when details.

Added to this is the way that almost every international news website crumpled and died for about 5 hours after the events.

The first sensible thing Katz has said in months

[mblase]

Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people.

Too bad it wasn't enough to redeem his idiot angle. For the first time, I'm blocking Katz from my front page. He's not funny anymore.

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[cavemanf16]

No, Jon, it's actually quite easy. I'm thinking of the thousands of people who lost their lives today at the hands of heartless terrorists. I don't think about technology, and I can't believe that you could. I thought you were just an idiot before, but you're not just brainless, you're heartless.

Wow, I'm glad to see that you and all the other slashbots have learned so well from this tragedy. What better way to say, I am evil, than to return a hateful comment to an innocent person who wanted to express his heartfelt sorrow and insight into another hateful event. Good work.

If Karma on Slashdot actually means more to you (by slamming yet another Katz article), than the feelings of someone who has quite possibly lost a friend or two on this terrible day of destruction, then you are truly, one of the most dispicable persons on this planet right now.

Jon Katz, I apologize for all the damn trolls, flamebaits, and other jerks using slashdot without a shred of decency for your heartfelt sorrow for today's events. As an American, a born-again Christian, and a caring human, I'll also say a prayer for you and your friends today. It certainly hurts us all right now, and I can't begin to imagine what losing a friend to this mess must feel like. My heart goes out to you.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[bigdavex]

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apprt by Chaos, while the fotress undures, the great leader will succumb" "The third big war will begin when the big City is burning" quote -Nostradamus- 1654 n. C.

This has already been refuted once today by nparr. Geez.

Here's his post copied for your convience. Please mod him up.

This is not real

Just do a search on google for this phrase. If I make say a thousand prophecies that are fairly abstract for example:

In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb

Well let us analyse this. For Example what does City of God mean? It could be Mecca, Medina, Rome, Jeruselum, Salt Lake City, or any holy city depending on your religion. What do I mean by thunder--a storm? War? EarthQuake? lots of stuff can be described by thunder. There are a lot of two brothers on this world (I think the Number runs among the Billions) and fortress edure's what--Besiegement, Famine, etc? What Great Leader? How will he succumb? To what?

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm

Retaliation - How We Can Fight Back

[gotroot801]

Sent by a co-worker to our entire campus this afternoon:

---
In the immediate wake of this monstrous tragedy, one thing that strikes me is the resilience of New Yorkers. Reports of people aiding victims at ground zero, buying cases of water for victims, and of many hour waits to donate at local blood centers. I shudder to think of how this tragedy may have affected members of our small community, I saw a few vicitms already on campus today, but I also saw a busload of students leaving to brave the congested evacuation routes of Long Island to give blood.

They are celebrating our tragedy in areas of the world that would seek to do us harm. Already I hear cries that this is war, we should turn [certain countries] into parking lot, they kill our kids, we should level their whole civilizations.

It is obvious to state the following: The perpetrators of this heinous attack would want exactly that. For us to turn against one another and fuel the fires of prejudice and hate. For us to weaken the bonds of strength that is the diversity of us. They have succeded in attacking our land, our people, and our psyche.

They can bomb America today, but we will be open for business tomorrow.

Now is the time we reach out to help each other thru the post-traumatic period of time. It is important that everyone talk to each other to overcome the shock of this tragedy. Hopefully, people with information to catch these terrorists will not be afraid to come forth, and the forces who have sworn to give their lives for this country can and will bring them to justice.

But I hope that people will continue to show the passion and courage to continue to reach out and help our fellow Americans in a time when we need it the most. The Red Cross had enough blood in reserve for today, but in the coming days they will need more.

We can retaliate by showing the engineers of this tragedy that the greatest nation on earth will be back to work and school tommorow, shaken but not undaunted. We can show them that they will not change our way of life, our love of freedom, nor turn us against each other. The history of this nation has shown that a multicultural nation can and will overcome the most insurmountable obstacles. I think history will show future generations that the aftermath of this tragedy displayed Americans in their finest hour. I hope some of you out there feel the same way I do.

--Protik Majumdar

life goes on

[jafac]

A tragic bombing and murder of innocent people.
Spam still arriving in my inbox.
I'm at work, doing my thing, as are all the rest here in my office.
Babies being born.
John Katz still rambling like a madman to his pet cockroaches in a dark cell of a hospital for the criminally insane.

What if there is nobody to retalliate against?

[nweaver]

In the early aftermath of the heinous attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, there is much speculation that this attack had to be the work of a significant, organized organization. Although we desire to believe that this attack required a large group, one that we could potentially retaliate against, an attack of this magnitude requires only a few individuals and a very small amount of preparation.

It only takes a couple of armed individuals to commandeer a plane in the air once they get a weapon aboard, while a few minutes thought outside an airport checkpoint will reveal a half dozen methods a terrorist could use. Once the terrorists gain control over the plane, it is again straightforward for the terrorists to conduct a controlled crash: readily available flight simulation programs are very powerful, capable of providing the necessary training for a targeted crash.

Thus, a dozen reasonably intelligent zealots, willing to die for their cause, could easily prepare, train, plan, and execute an attack on this scale in under a week. What will we do if it turns out that it was a small group? What will we do if there is nobody left to blame?

Re:What if there is nobody to retalliate against?

[nweaver]

How do you get weapons on board?

• Ceramic Bladed Knives
• Glass knives
• Razor blades & plastic handles
• Fashion cutting instruments out of
• Bullets hidden in sealed metal object (belt buckels etc) and plastic derringers.

How do you pilot a plane?

Microsoft Flight Simulator and 767 Pilot in Command, a near commercial grade, highly detailed flight simulator for a 767. (757 uses the same cockpit).

How do you coordinate?

Hank, bob, you take this plane, crash it into tower one. I'll take that plane, crash it into tower two. The timing doesn't have to be very precise.

Fortuntaly, however, it looks like a larger, more organized group.

mod parent up, not down

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Unfortunately I burned my latest round of mod points yesterday, on discussions much less interesting than this one.

Yes, this was almost certainly a religiously inspired attack. Either it was Islamic fundamentalists, or our own home-grown Christian fundamentalists a la Timothy McVeigh. I'm sorry, but I don't see any other possibilities. Anyone who mods the parent comment (or this one) down because they can't stand to face this fact is a coward.

Why anyone would pray for comfort to a God who would allow something like this to happen is beyond me.

Re:Free Parking

[segfaultdot]

No. You can't just turn an entire nation into a glass parking lot... It would probably get Bin Ladin (very good), but it would also kill a lot of innocent people (bad).

Not everybody in/from the mid east are psychopathic America-hating killers. They're people like you and me. We cannot destroy an entire nation for the sins of one man, no matter how great those sins. The same goes for iraq.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

[Chris Y Taylor]

"As for the US's retaliation, I think it should be swift and decisive. I think there should be a battery of cruise missles launched at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world."

Yes, our retaliation must be decisive (and complete) to make sure that this sort of thing does not become more common. But it doesn't have to be swift. We must make sure that we completely roll up whatever organization is responsible and anyone who was an accomplis. It is far more important to get this right and do it completely than it is to be quick and do a half@$$ed job that doesn't get all the terrorists or gets the wrong people. No one must doubt that we got the right people and that we got them all. That will take time, but as the saying goes, "revenge is a dish best served cold." This is as true in the world of intel/counterintel as it is in fiction. But the time it takes should be because of we are methodical, not because we fail to commit the proper resources to do the job.

There are more World Trade Centers

[alanjstr]

A quick Google search turns up quite a few. There was a bomb threat this morning at the one in Baltimore, Maryland. There was a bomb threat at the state capital, in Maryland. There was a bomb threat at my local mall this afternoon, shutting it down. Why are people wasting time on tragic days like this?

The true cause

[Spankophile]

We had better re-evaluate our position on letting Middle-Eastern children play games such as Microsoft Flight Simulator, or SimCity, which may promote violent tendencies toward crashing airplanes.

WTF?

[Hard_Code]

"It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific convergence between technology, politics, and information."

What the hell does this have to do with "technology, politics, and information"? It's impossible to stare at the TV and not think of the horrific deaths of thousands of people. Jesus, not everything revolves around the navel-gazing of us geeks.

"Technology turns planes into weapons."

Planes don't kill people, terrorists kill people. Every day we putting our trust in hundreds of strangers. I trust the bus driver doesn't drive off a cliff. I trust a hacker doesn't hack into my machine. I the mailman will deliver my mail. This is not a technological problem. It is a sociological problem. In the airplane industry, we as consumers TRUST each other enough so that we do not have to be tied in upright Hannibal-Lector restraining devices to protect each other. We TRUST each other enough not to have to undergo invasive personal searches, and have a mean security guard rip Timmy's stuffed bear to shreds because there might be a bomb in it.

"It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories."

And the irony of it all is that this very same technology is *distancing* us from real events, causing us to go through various levels of "proxies" for the real experience. Hardly anybody really experiences anything any more in this society of the spectacle. That's how Americans can sit at home and remain comfortable when Ted Kopple tells us, that oh, by the way we forgot to tell you, a gruesome civil war in Sudan has caused
2 million deaths.

"Technology can do all sorts of amazing things, but it can't protect us from a handful of determined people."

Not if technology itself is based on simple human trust...which it invariably is. This is the same cause for all those stupid Word macro worms, except with much more dire results. We have to realize we *cannot* stop this type of exploitation based on trust (well, short of distrusting everybody which is impractical), but instead have to foster an environment in which people don't *want* to do these things (*cough* hacker ethic *cough*).

One more

[plaa]

I don't know whether this has been posted before (I haven't seen it here), but http://www.worldtradecenter.com/ is interesting -- somebody had a good idea there.

(For the record, it redirects to http://www.redcross.org/)

Re:tech, politics, information AND...

[nathanm]

/. keeps forgetting RELIGION's ROLE in this mess. That's at the root of it all: two countries persecuting each other over a holyland, and we're in the middle of it.

Repeat: this would not have happened if two countries didn't think a small city was the holyland of their respective gods.

This is probably not about Palestine, but about the US presence in the middle east. If the Palestinians were behind this attack, the world opinion that has been recently warming to their position would be all but gone.

The sooner we wean people off of religion, the less intolerance we'll have to deal with. Needn't list all of the intolerance and racism religion has caused. And don't blame a few zealots, it's everyone.

Wanting to wean people off religion is showing your intolerance. What we need is for people to be tolerant of different religions or lack thereof. Intolerance and racism have been caused by many other things besides religion. Remember, the original title of Darwin's book was On The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. It's been used by many to justify racism.

+4 Insightful? Try -1 Uninformed / Prejudiced

[smirkleton]

We know absolutely *nothing* about who is responsible. What we do know is that in less than an hour our nation lost potentially tens of thousands of citizens. Countless more are injured. Relief organizations need blood and donations from ALL OF US. And, though it curl your toes to hear, the widows, orphans and bereaved need and deserve OUR PRAYERS.

In the midst of these certainties, you would prefer we not be distracted by the known. You would have us focus on blame-appropriation and judgment- lets blame the Jews and Muslims in the middle east for their troublesome ideas about God and religion. That is what is important right now.

What's next, Sebastopol? How about we all strike back against these evil forces by saying racist things to the Middle Eastern guy who runs the cash register at the nearby 7-11? He probably has relatives that have relatives that have relatives that came from the hotbed of intolerance.

If you believed in tolerance, you'd be tolerant of those you believe are intolerant. But you don't. You just a confused, ignorant bigot. And that you're moderated up to +4 Insight should be an embarrassment to anyone who confesses any sort of loyalty to Slashdot.

Oh good. You've been moderated down to 1 even as I authored this. Two more points outta do it.

Re:+4 Insightful? Try -1 Uninformed / Prejudiced

[Sebastopol]

Hmmm... isn't modding me down a sign of intolerance? You can't tolerate an alternative viewpoint, so you push it down under the radar until no one can see it?

Intolerance of the intolerant is a rather difficult concept to grasp. Is it a contradiction, or is it a statment about tolerance, thus not a paradox? It is anticlericalism.

You call me a bigot, but you ask people to pray? What do non-christians and atheists and agnostics think when their leader (chosen or not), asks them to "Pray?" That's a huge slap in the face to us as a result of YOUR VERY INTOLERANCE and insensitivity to alternate believe systems. And it's also quite difficult to those of us who don't believe in god to grasp: watching large masses of people shouting at the sky for comfort. it's really hard to empathize with that when your a nonbeliever, and asking me to embrace it is the very bigotry behind most (not all) religious dogmas. (thanks to a previous poster for pointing that out.)

I'm facing two types of prejudice on /. right now: 1) because I'm making assumptions about the perpetrators, which is absolultely a justified reason to slam me, and 2) because I'm illustrating the contradictions of religion. The latter is the intolerance you accuse me of.

Doing what I can to help

[martyb]

First off, my heartfelt condolences to those who have lost family, friends, and loved ones in this tragedy.

I met with a number of friends at lunch. Some had loved ones who they had been unable to reach to see if they were okay.
I felt powerless over what had happened, and indeed there is nothing anyone can do to change what has already happened. But, I did what I could, today. I offered a shoulder to cry on. I encouraged them to have hope, to know that not knowing does not mean the worst. That there is already a tremendous pulling together of support. Calls for blood donations, people reaching out to friends they hadn't talked with for a long while, and countless other acts across the country and the world where people offer support to one another.

This tragedy can become a rallying point, an opportunity to show the world what we are made of here in the US of A. The Oklahoma bombing, the flooding of the Mississippi River, hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. We are a people that has a long history of reaching out to help.

A proverb I've liked: "If I cannot do great things, then I will do small things in great ways." (Don't know who wrote it, sorry.) Each person who lends a hand, a shoulder, a caring heart does something tangible. And all of those seemingly small acts, when taken together, can show the world, and ourselves, that we are greater, MUCH greater, than these attacks.

More ways to call when circuits are busy

[KarmaBlackballed]

For USA callers: If you try calling long distance and get "all circuits are busy", you can try a different long distance company no matter who you use normally. Type the following numbers to get the listed provider:
10333 - Sprint
10222 - MCI
10288 - ATT

Sometimes you can get through this way. Good luck.

"Our new pearl harbor" ??

[IdIoTt]

Why must we turn this into a "coming of age" Hallmark special for this generation?
I understand the idea of "day of infamy" etc, but can we not take this story for itself? Let us
mourn the tragedy that has occured instead of waxing eloquent about anything and everything, regardless of whether or not it's relevant. It seems Katz obsession with technology does not let him see the forest for the trees. Technology is NOT the story here, it is the loss of life. When I saw the buildings collapse, I did NOT think "My God, what a horrible use of technology that was" but rather "May God have mercy on us all."
This is not a time to troll a developing story with flowery imagery and self victimization. It is a time to help support our fellow Americans and give each other strength. My prayers go out to all of those involved, our leaders currently making extremely difficult decisions, our country, and our world.

God be with us.

You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

People are already saying that this was an act of war. You've got to understand that many nations feel that they've been at war with the U.S. long before this first strike back.

Already at war? Those people don't know what war is. We haven't had a real war since World War II, the last time anyone was stupid enough to attack us on our own turf. Looks like we'll get another one. No holds barred, no compromise, I'm talking invasion with unconditional surrender. We taught the Japanese to play nice, we can do it again.

cryptochrome

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[starman97]

Subject: Re: 911

Subject: 911 GOD HELLP US!!!

A Prediction:

A Mr. Xinoehpoel will be visited by many uniformed me with automatic weapons and taken before an Inquisitor..

His future becomes hazy beyond this point..

have you no shame, Katz?

[smirkleton]

It is so sad, and so wrong, to write a Katzian essay about this. It is also the wrong time to bash you, Jon, so I won't do it. But I am sad to see what and how you have written about this.

The Date!

[mikeman14400]

i don't know if anyone else has noticed but the date is 911, 9-11, what terrible iorny, this was definately planned very intricatly. Using american airlines planes and us arilines planes also.

Not Pearl Harbor

[idResponse]

"Our New Pearl Harbor" is really a horrible way to state this. This is an attack with our own planes against our own people. This was nothing like pearl harbor at all, it was worse.

I hear a lot of -really- stupid stuff flying from a lot of peoples mouths today... most of it is due to the ability to speak before thinking - which i think is what most people do... people stick blame everywhere at once and say "BLOW EVERYTHING UP" - but then again... don't people stop to think and say "hey... they just killed 13259710295 of our people, if we do the same to some other random country that may or may not be the one who attacked us (IF another country attacked us) what will it accomplish? what we have to do is investigate and figure out what the hell really happened...

it's a sad day, but we'll just have to cope, clean up, life goes on, don't dwell on the distant past and try to reflect it to now. pearl harbor has nothing to do with this, and i really hate that sentiment.

You reap what you sow ...

[LizardKing]

Sitting here in the UK, where we've had more than our share of terrorist atrocities, I can't help feeling that the rabid anti-Arab sentiments expressed here by US posters are part of the problem.

When I worked in the US, I was amazed at how biased the press was. The Arabs in the Middle East are painted as irredeemable devils, and the Israelis as put upon victims. In the same way, I was shocked at the US portrayal of the Northern Ireland problems - but saw disturbing parallels.

Nothing is black and white. The British army was sent to NI originally to protect the Catholic minority. The Israelis occupied Palestinian land in the late 1940's relying on some archaic biblical texts, and the worlds collective guilt at what had happened to Jews (amongst others) in Nazi occupied territories.

Now we see the fruits of Americas unquestioning support of Israel. US foreign policy in the Middle East was so polarised along pro-Israeli lines for so long, that in the eyes of many Arabs and Islamic extremists the US and Zionism are indistinguishable. And since a poorly armed people can't take on tanks and state of the art military aircraft, ordinary people who just happen to be in New York suffer.

So before whining about terrorism, another Pearl Harbour, etc. look to your own politicians and press. If they gave you a more balanced view of the world (the press), or had shown more spine when dealing with the Middle East for the 40 years (the politicians, Carter and Clinton excepted) then you wouldn't be seeing dead bodies pulled from rubble in US cities.

Re:You reap what you sow ...

[LizardKing]

Ignoring for a minute the callousness of claiming the dead civilians in New York have "reaped what they have sown"

The people in the WTC, many of whom wouldn't have even been US citizens, didn't reap it. It's the US politicians who happily approve Israels aid grants year in, year out, who reaped what they sowed. The irony is that's it's ordinary people - misinformed and powerless - who really pay the cost. So don't misinterprete my cynicism for a lack of regret at what has happened. If I was gloating (as you seem to think), then I would have worded my post much differently.

the "problem" of Israel is as much the UKs fault as the US

As I well know. But Britains real failure to do something lasting about the Zionist issue was compounded by the lack of money and willpower after the war years. Oh, and by the way I'm only half English, so I've not got much of an axe to grind on that score ...

I hope some cray IRA radical blows up your place of employment

I've already survived one close encounter with an IRA bomb (1992, Oxford Street, London), so don't try and patronise me.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[ryanwright]

There is no reference to this quote in the Nostradamus quote search engine. Nevermind the fact that Nostradamus died in 1566.

Please, check your facts before spreading rumors...

Foreign Policy 2.0

[Zen Mastuh]

It is universally accepted that today's events are tragic. Thousands of innocent people were killed and the suffering will encircle their family, friends, and others. Our nation is living in fear.

If this turns out to be the work of a Palestinian terrorist organization (and not a decorated U.S. military veteran), most Americans will rally for retaliation with the full support of our allies. This is also tragic, for we smite Jesus of Nazareth, Ghandi, and all other prophets who have tried to save us from our hatred and anger. At the same time, we commit an act that--in their hearts--must be avenged. The cycle of violence will continue, destroying more innocent lives.

If we can all learn a lesson today, I hope it is this: that all "leaders" assume responsibility for their actions and stop this millenia-long practice of littering the ground with the bodies of their followers. The time has come to upgrade our foreign policy. When political leaders disagree, let them face off in pistol duels.

Re:Foreign Policy 2.0

[alumshubby]

Assuming these monstrous events were spurred on by religious fervor, I suspect that right now the perpetrators are having a very uncomfortable question-and-answer session with the Almighty.

Re:Time to wake up...

[telbij]

I'm afraid many of you anonymous cowards (log in please) need to step outside of your privileged American lives and learn about the reality of life in impoverished countries.

Sure nothing can justify this type of terrorism, but your GI-Joe-inspired concepts of American military superiority winning any battle and surpressing any enemy are so childish I can't help but chuckle.

Time and time again throughout history oppressive empires have been toppled by the downtrodden masses. You spoiled brats think that the threat of unrelenting military armageddon would be enough to scare anyone into submission. You also think that our role as the major world power is unsurmountable because we have such enormous resources at are disposal.

You have to step outside of your capitalism-brainwashed, MTV-soaked minds and realize that the people who are propagating this kind of terrorism FEAR NOTHING because they do not value the world order. The only way to stomp out these terrorists would be mass genocide. If you are advocating mass genocide then you REALLY need to check your righteous self, because America is anything but a model of ethical international relations.

I repeat myself now, because this is the absolute truth. If America continues it's greedy self-serving ways, this is only the beginning of the tragedy that will strike us. It's time to embrace our success as a way to benefit the world.

Two 747's forced to land in Whitehorse Yukon

[Lawmeister]

First off - my previous post had 2 errors, 'Debt of Honour' was Clancey's book, and yes, GWB was not in power last year, my apologies in writing at too fevered a pitch.

Now, my report regarding the escorted landing of two 747's at Whitehorse International Airport:

11:42am A Korean Airlines cargo 747-400 landed using every inch of available runway

11:50am We spotted another inbound jet
11:52am A Korea Airlines passenger 747 landed coming down just 15 feet above the fence....an awesome and scary sight from only 100 feet away. 3 F-18's (hard to say, they were pretty high up) escorted them in and continued to circle Whitehorse's airspace.

Luckily Whitehorse's runway had just been extended to facilitate 747's last year.

Emergency vehicles kept their distance from both planes, the passenger plane having taxied back to the north end of the runway, as far away from the terminal as possible.

A gray truck approached the passenger plane, dispersing ground personnel to chalk the wheels, then fell in behind an officer wielding a long barreled weapon and backed up behind the officer to the truck and departed the scene

A ramp was brought to the aircraft but no one left for about 20 minutes (at 12:36pm) when a single male came down and walked towards the police vehicles (we could hear the occasional word from a police loudspeaker) he made it about half way when he was obviously ordered to lift his shirt up, turn around, lift his pant legs, then he removed the shirt completely, holding it over his head while continuing to walk towards the vehicles. People with binoculars were able to see several FBI jackets amongst the police. There was a lear jet nearby which was probably used to get the FBI here from Alaska (since as far as I know we don't have any resident FBI in Yukon).

At 12:43pm we were ordered away from the area by the RCMP. Apparently for 'our own safety' - we were on crown land, outside the airport's perimeter fence.

There is the possibility that we may be receiving up to 10 planes, but I have no idea where they could park them.

Further information available at:
http://www.canoe.ca/MoneyNews/sept11_yukon-dow.h tm l
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSWorldTrade0109/11_white -c p.html
http://cbc.ca/

Technology? not very helpful today

[mr100percent]

The technology you're referring to was nothing but CNN, MSNBC, sky.com, NYTimes.com all slashdotted for literally hours.

Without access to a working TV, all I had was AOL.com news for my reports.

Also, I was playing Deus Ex yesterday, the scene where terrorists attack NYC and the statue of liberty, and I laughed it off, knowing that it would never happen.

Even the upgraded security, I said "Why secure the world trade center? They'll never attack it again."

cooler heads must prevail

[nanojath]

"at every known, suspected or rumored terrorist hangout, EVERYWHERE in the world."

No. If we attack and kill innocent civilians (which is what a cruise missle assault is going to do, no question) on the basis of suspicions and rumors, then we are no better than the people who did this.

This was an act of war and as a nation we have an obligation to respond in kind. But not crazy, hot-headed and half cocked as you propose.

You Franklin quote is apt. We better consider carefully what we give up, and what we gain. The American you propose to defend may have very little liberty left in it if we allow unbridled passion to guide our response, and then the forces of Evil truly will prevail. Your DEA example is apt too, though not for the reason you seen to think. Sure, maybe the DEA cracked some heads (and if some of them were innocent people or mere junkies? ah well - nobody I know) and maybe agents are safer for it. But guess what: we're still solidly, roundly, wholeheartedly losing the war on drugs. Forests and Trees, friend. There is a line between liberty and caution, between compassion and retalliation. Let's try to at least be aware of when and why we start crossing it.

Your search engine is crap....

[NoWhere Man]

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm

Type 'God' in your search engine and you come up with jack.

Re:Your search engine is crap....

[ryanwright]

Type 'God' in your search engine and you come up with jack

Funny, I got a number of results.

Re:rebuilding the towers... .001 sales tax!

[Havokmon]

In Wisconsin, a rep was ousted for supporting the Stadium tax.

I'd jump on a tax for the 'finger towers' any day!

OK...

[Danse]

So, basically you think we should fight fire with fire. We should become terrorists ourselves in order to punish those who committed this act. In the end, we will end up locked in a battle to the death with the terrorists responsible for today's attacks, and probably others as well. We will have no moral justification for our acts other than the same justifications that the terrorists of the world normally give. This was not the first stone to be thrown. This is just a bigger stone than usual. Most Americans don't even know what the hell our country does overseas or how our actions affect the people of other countries. Most people don't seem to really care. Is it any surprise that we've made enemies such as this?

Re:OK...

[Danse]

Care to elaborate? Or is that the extent of your ability to articulate your disagreement?

Re:OK...

[Danse]

there comes a point when you have to say, "OK, it's war now, and we don't win a war by dying, we win a war by killing the other guys."

I think this is exactly my point. The terrorists have already gotten to that point, hence the attack. We will do the same. We just have a much much smaller target to hit. I'm saying we shouldn't use a nuke where a sniper rifle is required. I don't expect the US to just sit idly by and accept the attack. I just don't like seeing the bullshit rhetoric about how evil and cowardly the attack was. That's war people. We fund and support this kind of thing all over the world. We just haven't seen it up close on our own soil in a LONG time. Welcome to war. It's ugly. It's unfair. Lots of people die for things they don't know about or understand. We aren't truly innocent though. We are responsible for the actions of our government. Our CIA has trained and supported such groups all over the world to serve our own purposes. Do you really believe that it would never come back to haunt us? Do you really believe that we can fight proxy wars all over the place and never have them touch our own soil?

Re:OK...

[Danse]

I understand what you're saying. I think a lot of people feel the same way. If the majority of this country gets behind this plan, then so be it. In any case though, I would like to see the "cowardly attack" and "innocent civilians" and "evil terrorists" rhetoric stop. We, as a country, through our government, have committed many atrocious acts. Some of these acts have come back to bite us. In the end, the world seems to work as you believe. The strong will dominate. Morality is the luxury of nations who have the financial and military strength to hold on to both morality and security at the same time. When our security is threatened, our morality is often set aside as well. Don't forget that, and don't be hypocritical by pandering to the US public with statements about the people attacking us being cowardly and evil. We could very well be considered cowardly and evil for many of the things we've done when we've felt threatened in the past.

Re:OK...

[Danse]

If your opponent uses terror-bombing (as the Axis did in World War II), do you do likewise?

I'd say we did do likewise. Hiroshima? Nagasaki? We killed thousands of people in order to demoralize them and scare them into surrender.

But if I'm a public official, I don't necessarily have that right. If I feel that indulging my personal moral qualms will lead to the deaths of people who trust me to make decisions for them, I don't know that I have that right.

I agree with you on this. That would be a very difficult position to be in. I think the problem is that we, as a nation, are not even being honest with ourselves about the nature of war and our own part in it. We like to see things as black and white. We're the good guys. They're the evil cowardly murderers. When we kill them, it's because it's necessary. When they kill us it's because they're evil. I can't stomach that kind of crap and it's one reason I can't even listen to the radio or tv now. That's about all you hear.

I just don't see how deluding ourselves as a nation can be a good thing.

Re:OK...

[Danse]

But note that I don't necessarily feel it wasn't a necessary or even a justified evil.

I can't say that it wasn't justified either. In fact, I believe it was. What I'm getting at is that we don't live in the Middle East. We don't live every day over there with the consequences of the actions of the US. We don't have our homes destroyed. We don't get forced off our land. We don't have loved ones being shot by enemy military. Many people over there obviously believe that this attack was justified. Many of them believe that since the US funds much of the conflict over there, that we're directly responsible for it. I can't disagree with that. It is impossible for us to send money and military hardware over there, knowing exactly how it will be used, and then pretend we aren't responsible for what happens. We do a lot of pretty screwed up things because it's in our best interest, usually financially. Americans conveniently, and consistently turn a blind eye to the actions of our government and the consequences. Well this is one consequence that they can't turn a blind eye to. For once the war has been brought to our country instead of taking place halfway around the world.

I know there are a lot of gray areas and that you can't just label everything good or evil, but while we instantly label this attack as evil and our actions over there as good (at least that's what you hear in the media), remember that that's only one perspective. We aren't the ones over there living with the consequences. Even though there are only a minority that hate the US with such passion as to cause them to take the kind of action we saw the other day, there is at least a majority that strongly disagree with what the US has done in the Middle East. When we retaliate, that disagreement could turn to hate if we're not cautious and precise with our retaliation.

Regardless of how this turns out, I don't think we've seen the end of such attacks. America is far too quick to take advantage of weaker countries. Only when they fall in line and comply with our desires do we tend to offer them any assistance. The rest of the time, we play them against each other, arming and training one side or another, whatever gives us the best advantage. If we continue with such policies, we will engenger more hatred and we will suffer for it. The saddest thing is that most Americans will never know or understand what their government is doing. We simply don't pay attention to anything other than what we're spoon-fed on the nightly news. And we generally accept even that with whatever spin they decide to put on it. Only since the freedom of information act was passed are we even able to get accurate (with a lot still blacked out) information on things that happened 30 or 40 years ago. You gotta wonder what kind of stuff we'll be finding out our government did in the last decade when we get the info on it in another 30 years.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I wonder if anyone else was reading it :) As always, feel free to respond, I'm not looking to get the last word either :) It's been interesting.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[hearingaid]

You may not have experienced war since WW II, but certainly a number of other countries have experienced war, either directly with U.S. troops or with U.S.-trained and -funded troops. A partial list:

• Korea
• Vietnam
• Cambodia
• Hell, most of Southeast Asia
• Nicaragua
• El Salvador
• Chile
• Hell, most of Latin America
• Iraq
• Palestine
• Iran
• Lebanon
• Hell, most of the Middle East

Well, at least most of Africa and Europe have remained free of the grip of American soldiery.

This is why the terrorists engage in these kinds of activities. They do not feel they have anything to lose. Sadly, they may be right: the United States' grasp of realpolitik is incredibly weak.

Are technological safeguards possible ?

[Birger Johansson]

I would like to ask if technological safeguards can prevent something like this from happening again ?

It may be poor taste to bring up this topic so soon after the massacre, but at least thinking about the problem gave me something constructive to do, instead of just watching the scenes on TV with helpless fury.

Apparently, suicide hijackers used civilian airliners as projectiles,
totally ignoring the loss of civilians in the aircraft and the targets.

It seems the *cockpits* are the places where safeguards would be effective.
Airports can be made safer, but there is always the risk of ground crew being recruited by hijackers for smuggling weapons past security. Nor will it be effective to place AA batteries on the roofs of every possible target.

A system with *continous* "biometric" verification of the identity of the pilot/pilots sitting at the controls is the first step.
If an unauthorised person sits down at the controls, the system should regard him as a possible suicide pilot, set the autopilot to cruise mode, and disconnect the cockpit from the controls.
It should not be possible to force the authorised pilots to steer the aircraft the final part of a collision course, even at gunpoint;
in that situation the pilot has nothing to lose by disobeying the hijackers.

If and when ground control has verified it is a false alarm, they can transmit an override code, (which is unknown to the aircrew), re-introducing manual control.

The new (not yet introduced) world standard for air traffic control is a decentralised system, based on an invention by Swedish engineer Håkan Lans, and depends on computers in every airliner, communicating in an internet-like way.
Maybe this could be a second line of defense ?
This system might be modified to regard some (potential target) zones as off-limits. If the aircraft enters an off-limit zone,
or if the traffic control system is disconnected, the aircraft should likewise enter a cruise mode, without a possibility for hijackers to manouvre the craft.

There are obvious questions about how to prevent false alarms, or technical problems, from jeopardising the aircraft during normal flights, but I assume those problems will be minor,
compared to making every airport 100% secure,
or installing static AA defenses around all buildings that terrorists may regard as targets.

Yours

Birger Johansson
Umeå, Sweden

Berkely University hosted register of survivors

[swmccracken]

A friend writes that:

This site will register people who are safe:
http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/

You can query this site to search for people:

http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/find.php

Please spread the word

(And it looks like this site should withstand the slashdot effect.)

I'm frightened...

[XRayX]

First of all I wanna say all the affected people and their friend and families, that I feel withnthem and that I am praying for them.
Second, I want to tell you about my feelings about this. I'm not living in America, so maybe I don't know exactly how it is for you guys there; but even I am damn frightened.
I'm frightened about what will come tomorrow...
I'm frightened abou what the U.S. Government will do...
I'm frightened about what will happen in Germany...
and... finally...
I am frightened if this IS the 3rd World War!
I'm now 15 years old, never had been in touch with war and lived a nice peacefully life... and now?
Thousands died today... a whole city looks like the location of apocalypse... the sky was burning and stones were falling down...
and that was only the first day.
I'm frightened about what to come... and this was jzst the first day...

Technology????

[Evro]

Technology turns planes into weapons.

How? How is "technology" responsible for this? I noticed this 'feature' was from the "Techno-Armageddon dept." I think Jon Katz is a little psycho with his attempts to integrate technology into every significant event that occurs.

There was an interview on (I think) CNN with a "security expert" who stated that this was a remarkably low-tech attack ("low-tech, high concept" were his exact words). The US spends billions on high technology solutions to fend off enemies (star wars, better metal detectors, etc), but in this case it was indeed a low-tech attack. A plane filled with fuel manually piloted into a huge iconic building. It wasn't even a foreign country's plane! It was a domestic plane that was hijacked with an apparently undetectable weapon. It could have been a plastic knife for god's sake; how much more low tech can you get? While I'll concede that a 767 itself is indeed a marvel of high technology, planes capable of destruction like this have been around since at least World War 2. A B-52 could have caused similar damage. As numerous others have doubtless mentioned, this is evidence that the US has focused far too much on high-tech solutions.

This is likely the worst attack to occur on American soil; an act of terrorism perpetrated by (IMNSHO) supremely evil people. It will probably be regarded as the worst tragedy in our history. To try and blame this simply on "technology" belittles the event.

It's the people who matter

[melquiades]

And yet it's still the people that matter, not the technology. We all know that, and despite this being a site for nerds, this is stuff that Matters.

Yes, well spoken. And this is true of all the arguments for and against technology. Is technology evil? Is it good? Does is change our lives? Yes to all -- but it is really people who evil and good, people who change one another's lives.

Technology makes ideas powerful, and this changes the world. This was true when language appeared thousands of years ago, and it's true of the computer within our lifetime. In the arc of history, it is the people who matter most. That is why all of the choices we make now as individuals about our thoughts and actions are tremendously important.

Technology makes ideas powerful. If there is hate in the world, if there is vengeance, if there is fear, they will become powerful. And if there is wisdom, it can become powerful, too.

Let's be wise in the face of this tragedy.

Re:Come on, Jon, give us a break

[Winged Cat]

Agreed. Politics certainly play a role. Technology, as it is usually invoked - new technology, especially computer technology - was not involved in the attack itself (unless maybe they communicated by - ooh, scaaary - email). Technology was involved in getting the word out, and in communicating the information of exactly what did happen so people would not dream up demons and react to them...which would have dealt far more damage than the actual attacks. Technology is also being used to coordinate search and rescue, to get as many victims out alive as possible.

Or is damage mitigation istelf what's supposed to be "horrific", since it shortens the time in which the media (including Katz) can meaninglessly pontificate on this topic and still sound non-foolish? "Tragedy: only 10,000 people died out of the 50,000 in those towers. Now we'll only be able to milk one hour of airtime out of listing the names in a 'memorial' (with 'respectful' - we'll take the ad agencies' word on that - silent ads surrounding the content) instead of five!"

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[Rimbo]

Oh, give me a break. Don't post your sour grapes because you're jealous of Jon Katz's permission.

I'm normally one to outright ignore what Katz has to say, but this was the one time, considering how frequently I not only disagree but feel the exact opposite of what he feels, the one time I was truly interested in what he had to say. And he feels the same as me. And as you. And that's comforting to me. We'll troll each other later, but this time, we see eye-to-eye.

This sucks, but it's bringing people together.

Good for Jon.

Re:Group Takes Responsibility

[metachimp]

BBC reports this to be false; the leaders of that group have formally denied any involvement...

In a way, he's right

[Tomcow2000]

This will become a second Pearl Harbor, but not in the way Katz thinks. Remember the way the Japanese were treated after Pearl Harbor. They were gathered up and put into camps. They were gathered up like cattle and put into camps. They lost all their belongings. Now imagine this response times 100, directed towards Arab-Americans. There are an enormous number of extremely evil people in this world, but not all Arabs support this aciton, just as not all Japanese supported their actions. Not to mention that this attack was not endorsed by any government. I apologize for this rambling post, I'm just angry. This is not war with anyone. This is an isolated attack on the United States. However, I feel that the US' response to this attack will effect just as many, if not more, families.

Careful about targeting one source...

[Pollux]

This was our main subject in Psych class today at college, and our professor was especially worried about it.

Our professor is an Egyptian and an active Muslim. She was especially worried because everyone here in America associates BinLaden with the Islamic faith. It's as far from the truth as possible. BinLaden calls himself a "Fundamentalist Muslim," but has been denounced by Muslims throughout the world. She made us understand (and everyone should understand this before they point fingers) is that Palestineans / Arabs / Egyptians / whatever race or religion of people in the Middle East does not support the terrorist view of "If you kill Americans, you get into the life beyond." She was praying that the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion. It puts such a heavy burden on her here in the United States, since no one understands the fundamentals of the Muslim faith.

We should not go out on a witch hunt, because we are not sure yet who did it. But even more, people need to understand that these are INDIVIDUALS. They are INDIVIDUAL ACTS. They DO NOT represent any race of people, any religion of people, or any country of people.

I just hope people can find a way to understand.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Pig Hogger]

the people behind the attack wern't Muslims, because the traditional Muslim faiths don't condone killing others. Unfortunately for her and us, though, our only image of the Muslim faith is BinLaden carrying out his attacks in the name of religion.

So, what are the muslim authorities doing to get rid of that image-breaking Ben Laden???

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Migelikor1]

Unfortunately, you let yourself forget one thing: the PC idea that just because a large group of people hold an idea, you can't dislike it is bullshit. My Muslim friend today was raging; he is of mixed race from Turkey and Syria, but has lived in the US since he was 10 years old. He made an interesting point: islam in some areas is at a stage like catholicism was in England in the 14-1500s. The Jihad (holy war) is just like the Crusades or inquisition, repugnant practices performed by ignorant people under the auspice of religion. I don't dislike Muslims, but I feel free to despise the state their religion is in in foriegn countries, and hate those engaging in a Jihad against the United States. The acts of those people may not represent a whole group, but it is because of the group they are commiting them. Knock out oppresive fundamentalist religions the world over, (taleban anyone?) and hate any group that insists on hating you. If they are completely irrational, they may be treated as...GASP...enemies.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[horza]

These are individuals? They don't represent any race or religion or country? Are you mad? You think a disparate group of people saw "Terrorism tonight" and decided to give it a go despite the warning "don't try this at home"? OF COURSE they did it in the name of a religion. They weren't crazy, they would have to be very intelligent to pull off such an attack. You may say they are a minority but please don't insult our intelligence.

Phillip.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[duffbeer703]

That's a nice thought, but it will never happen.

Everybody is shocked at the moment, anger has not kicked in yet. When the smoke clears and the mangled bodies of civilians and fireman are pulled from the rubble the muslim world will be in a world of hurt.

These terrorists have upped the stakes and have forced the world's most powerful military power into a corner. Over 10,000 Americans are DEAD. When 10,000 people die, pleas for compassion go unheard.

America's revenge and reprisals will be swift, violent and devastating. May god have mercy on whoever is behind this, because we won't.

Re:Careful about targeting one source...

[Dix]

Well, they've expelled him so far from Saudi Arabia and Sudan ...

Re:Possible solution: isolationism

[dada21]

Totally wrong. Libertarians such as myself don't want to be isolationist citizens, we just want our government to stop caring for other countries.

Let our citizens decide if they want to buy or trade with other countries, any countries.

Stop giving money to other countries' governments, which only harbor war, and only help keep dictators in power.

Bring all our troops home. Stop selling weapons to any other countries.

Leave NATO and the UN.

By lifting embargoes, and letting American citizens and corporations buy or trade with anyone anywhere, we'll only INCREASE our worth while decreasing terrorist acts.

Check out my website and click on 09-11-2001 for more info on my views...

Re:No saviours here

[Zen Mastuh]

These terrorists are a long way from any of the righteous figures you mention...

Not to start a flamewar, but your post is proof that reading comprehension in America is a thing of the past. I was not comparing the speculated terrorists to any princes of peace.

The sooner we send them to judgement day...

Apparently you are just as far from the righteous. Please explain why killing anyone sooner is better, or how killing is even good at all. "Thou shall not kill" was not a qualified statement.

Re:Time to wake up...

[maelstrom10]

This is absurd. When did we become responsible for the welfare of every other country in the world? As someone else stated earlier, we do more to help poor nations than all of the rest of the world put together. And exactly who are we "oppresing"?

Raise My Taxes

[Pinball Wizard]

I'm willing to sacrifice to help my country rebuild, and to be better prepared.

Anyone else?

Rebuild the Towers

[frostybean]

We should rebuild the towers exactly where they originally stood...but build them one story taller just to show that acts of terrorism, regardless of who the respnsible parties may be, will not bring down our country or the rest of the free world. Just a random thought... Also, to those who recommend carpet bombing the Middle East, you must realize that this is may be exactly what the terrorists want...to transform the war that exists in their minds into a real, full scale conventional war against the US by our many enemies in retaliation to our own semi-justified retaliatory attacks. Just another random thought. Let's also not forget whats been already mentioned: OKC was carried out be domestic terrorists...and it is still not known how many others besides McVeigh took part, despite what the media might tell you. It is a very real possibility that these same factions could be to blame. I just hope that Nostradamus quote doesn't come true...

Re:Rebuild the Towers

[MikeBabcock]

Oh, and get the Japanese to help in their design so they're a little more structurally sound for unknown events ;-). Japanese buildings often sway by several meters at the tops during earthquakes, etc.

future safeguards against airline hijacking

[dpletche]

I suspect we already have 90% of the pieces in place for fully automated takeoff, flight and landing of commercial airliners. I've wondered for years why we don't install a hijacking duress switch in the plane that would:
* Release a potent, fast-acting sleep gas
* Lock out all internal controls completely
* Autonomously land the plane at the nearest satisfactory airport, perhaps with rudimentary guidance from the nearest control tower

In any case, our antiquated flight telemetry and control systems should be improved along the way. It's surprising that we couldn't even be sure what had become of the missing planes, or which planes had crashed, until the smoke cleared.

I am still in shock, and my sympathies go out to those traumatized by this cruel tragedy. Let's all hope for brighter days ahead.

Ghandi said,

[Moray_Reef]

'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.'

M.K. Ghandi

This following is only a sig.

Re:Try this again, less troll-full, this time.

[falloutboy]

This is tasteless. JonKatz, the facts stand on their own face. Every one of us is capable of reacting to this without your help. Every one of us is capable of drawing conclusions without you leading us to them.

You must be new, so let me clue you in: this is called a "discussion forum." The idea is that, even when we all think the same thing, we share ideas. If you go back and read the Columbine threads you might catch the gist of it.

If you're still feeling self-righteous about posting that idiotic message (moderators: this one is for you, too) go find a local hospital and look for someone who seems upset. Ask him whats wrong, and when he starts to tell you, tell him to shut the fuck up because his feelings aren't really valid, and everyone else feels the same way.

Jon: my dad was in DC today. i spent most of the morning hitting redial to try and get his cell phone. eventually, i got through, and he's fine (renting a car to drive back to new york, of all places). my heart goes out to you.

Re:It is like Pearl

[jonathan_ingram]

Pearl Harbour wasn't about killing people. It was about destroying machinery. At that it was stunningly successful -- the once reason it wasn't *more* successful is that the US had advance warning, and had managed to move much of the fleet out of danger.

--

As to what happens to your country now: reactionary opinion will make the government much more hard-line and right wing. Many of your rights will be taken away in the interests of 'national security', and never given back, even when the threat is long gone. Your govenment will use an (imagined or not) external threat to pull the country together, and to stop the economy from collapsing.

The golden age of information and encryption freedom may well be over. Remember -- 'only people with something illegal to say would need to encrypt their messages'.

*OUCH*

[MxTxL]

Wow, that was a scathing slight! OH NO, he won't respond to me! The guy who called me a cunt and thinks my family should be shot think **I** am a troll. Look in the mirror, buddy.

No, I don't think the strong should prey on the weak. I think the strong should protect the weak. In this case, the strong is our government, and the weak is our people. The only way our people can be protected is to remove those who would harm us.

If you want to go back to the school yard example: innocent people are the wimpy kid, terrorists are the bully, and the government is our big brother who's gonna kick the bullies ass. This is how peace is maintained at school, and as unfortunate as it is, history has shown that this is how peace is maintained in the world.

This has *nothing* to do with religion

[ChaoticCoyote]

Suicide is a violation of Islamic law as defined by the Koran. These terrorists are not representative of Islam. As Tom Clancy put it on CNN just now -- they *are* fools.

Do you realize what kind of hell on Earth you are advocating when you ignorantly lump people into illogical categories? Such limited "thinking" is the root of sectarian violence around the world, people being murdered simply because they are atached to an artificial label: Protestant or Catholic, Jew or Arab, Black or White.

Those of you who declare "jihad" on all of Islam -- you are no better than the animals who murdered the innocent this morning. Go crawl back in your hole, while the rest of us look for light at the end of the tunnel...

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[Stephen Samuel]

The idea of no retalitation and just allowing for peace is definetly the utopian solution.

I'm not going to call for no retaliation. I am, however going to call for no random retaliation. Retaliation against civilian targets only vaguely associated with (the) terrorists will simply create more people, more desparate and more angry. It plays into the hands of the terrorist by creating even more people who are angry and/or desperate enough to work on suicide or other terrorist attacks.

Consider, for a moment, the kind of desperation it would take for someone to be a suicide attacker. Even in extreme situations, it is the rare person who would do something like this. It requires the willful creation of a desperate situation within a large population over a period of time.

Someone touched on this in an earlier post. What Israel has been doing to the Palestinian people in response to the Intifada has created a breeding ground for terrorists -- especially suicidal terrorists.

Retaliation should be strong and as swift as possible -- but against terrorists only. We are now experiencing, firsthand, the result of anger being directed against innocent civilian targets. If we take on the tactics of our attackers all we will do is feed the cycle of violence and hatred -- leading only to more death and destruction.

Break the circle. Stop violence against (innocent) civilians.

Re:Time to wake up...

[TWR]

Iranian oil is not sold in the US.

And I don't drive an SUV.

The Europeans are awash in blood money, though.

-jon

Re:Pearl Harbour Analogy UNFAIR

[the eric conspiracy]

shortly after declaration of war against the US.

The Japanese declaration of war was not delivered until after the attack started.

In the case of today's events most of the likely culprits have already publicly declared war on the US.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

Exactly my point. Every one of those wars was fundamentally limited in such a way that they could not be pursued in full. I also think that most of them were unjustified actions which we should not have been involved in, and that military action was not the solution. But likewise, there is NEVER justification for terrorism against civilians, no matter what the cause. It is an endless form of war which can only bring degradation to both perpetrator and victim, and must be stopped. With the death toll apparently running into the tens of thousands, this is not some potshot carbomb - many times more people have died today than in Pearl Harbor, and ALL of them were civilians. It will not go unpunished. The terrorists may have thought they were at war with the US already, but it's high time we should show them what it is like when WE think we're at war with somone.

We DID pursue the war in full in Japan, the country that institutionalized suicide attacks, and we won - completely, and at great cost. We invaded, and we occupied, and we rebuilt things from the ground up. We didn't try to punish them for all the horrendous things they had done up until that point, but instead helped them create a peaceful and prosperous nation instead. The Japanese and these terrorists may not have thought they had anything left to lose, but they're wrong. They can lose their reason and will to fight.

cryptochrome

Foreign Policy

[the eric conspiracy]

One of the points oft neglected is that US foreign policy in the Mideast is generally driven by it's need to import vast quantities of oil to feed what an economy that is the most wasteful consumer of energy in the world. Scientific American published an article as few years ago claiming that the real cost of oil in the US is something like $2 a gallon higher than appears at the pump if you factor in the defense costs necessary to maintain a dominant military presence in the Middle East.

Well, add to that the costs in human life and property lost to terrorism - in NY, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Africa.

Until we gat a sane energy policy that includes realization of the political, economic and environmental costs associated with the seemingly insane need for everyone to have gigantic SUV's in their driveway, we will continue to pay, and pay very dearly for our insane, unsustainable economic structure.

Survivability

[henley]

The towers were specifically built to withstand a direct hit from a 707, which was the largest plane at the time of construction. Whether or not it they actually would have withstood such a hit is unknown, of course.

With all due deference to your inside knowledge, Hogwash.

The building was hit by a 767. Taking the first google'd link (http://www.sasflightops.com/fleet/767_general.htm ) we see it has a max all-up weight of 185 metric tons.

A 707 (see here) has a takeoff weight of 150 tonnes.

Both of these are large lumps of metal and jet fuel moving at high velocity. Given the failure mode of the buildings, and the time to do so under a direct hit, I don't think 30 tonnes would have made a hell of a lot of difference.

To any building.

Give me a break, Jon

[WillSeattle]

Sheesh, you're not even a vet. I am, I'm subject to callup as a Sargeant.

And, in case you missed the news: no technology was used in this attack.

Yup. That's right. It wasn't cyberterrorists, or geek crackers, or script kiddies. They didn't use sophisticated technology.

They
Just
Flew
Planes
Into
Buildings

How low tech do you need to be? This is WWII tactics!

Now, would you stop posting and let someone who knows what he's talking about post? Someone with real experience? I don't mean me, I mean anyone but you.

On this day I don't need your carp, Jon.

Revenge is swift...

[Toshio]

This is completely unverified

I guess the question of revenge is about to be settled. The spiral of violence will now probably continue, as there are unverified reports coming from Kabul (Afghanistan) of explosions.

As Afghanistans could set them off themselves (let's just call it unbounded joy) this might be a duck, but is Tomohawks caused it, then it's another story. Then I would demand an answer from each and every intelegence agency how can define with such certainty who is responsible for these acts of violence in less than a day, and failed to notice the warning signs at the time when this was still in preparation. This wasn't some unaccountable madman having a bad day. This was essentialy preplaned and premedidated.

If someone decided that person XY is guilty and the country he was last seen in should be bombed, where is at least a shred of evidence? You don't need one?
Ok, quiz question: Who was found guilty of Oklahoma City bombing?
Quiz quistion for bonus points: Is there evidence needed in order to commit outside agression on other country?

Related to response to my thoughts under different article:
Do you think that attacks (seen as random and FUD related) on different countries that COULD be responsible generate more friends or more enemies. I would think that something gets punished for something he didn't do he will just do it after being finished with. Whay waste the good punishment.

Hipothetical question on SAT might be: One country sponsored terrorist act. Three countries (including the perpetrator)get indiscriminately punished for this. How many countries will have more than 50% willingness of becoming your friends?

1. Now is time for the USA to stand with its friends and clearly identify its enemies
2. None
3. One
4. Two
5. Three

Put it on poll and think about the results of USA current foreign policy

How could the ATC be so careless?

[shankark]

Its strange to note that while the bizarre movements of two flights were being monitored, it didn't strike as odd to the guys at the ATC. I mean, here's one plane that does a volte-face and heads towards Manhattan, while the ATC just silently watches by. Whats even more astonishing is that they had a whole 20 minutes before another of the planes was heading towards NYC. What on earth were they thinking?

Re:How could the ATC be so careless?

[haus]

OK, quick question hot shot. If you are sitting in Regional ATC center in NY and you notice a flight has turned off its transponder [hence there is no identifier of who it is on your status screen] and not responding to radio contact, flying at a suspicious speed and altitude, eventually going beneath radar. You then receive a report that a plane has collided into the WTC. Now there is another flight is behaving in a similar matter, what are you supposed to do in the next 18 minutes? Call the maintenance room at the WTC, odds are they are fairly busy. How about the maintenance room at the Statute of Liberty? That would have made a good target, with there remaining 13 minutes they could have made a 200 foot sign that read, ?please do not fly into me?. Or call the Air Force, lets assume that they could get a fighter scrambled from a nearby New Jersey air force base. For the sake of argument 3 minutes for the Air Force commander to be convinced that the person calling is not a crackpot, 6 minutes for a fighter with live missiles to get off the ground and pointed in the right direction another 4 to locate and identify the rouge aircraft. Just enough time left to pump a couple of missiles into the commercial airlines so that the burning hulk can fall randomly into Manhattan, big improvement.

Clancy's solution

[Von Rex]

I used to live in New York. I've spent a few afternoons in the World Trade Center. My wife used to work in an office building directly across the street from it. Sometimes I'd accompany her and bum around in the immediate vicinity while she worked.

It's hard to get across how large they are, and how many people are in them. You see the twin towers in pictures surrounded by what looks like half-pint buildings, but those buildings are actually skyscrapers the equal of any found elsewhere. It is Manhattan, after all, the capital of the planet in many ways. But the World Trade Center was so much huger it made those other skyscrapers look puny. It was like a sci-fi concept, a city in a tower. So many dead people I can hardly bear thinking about it.

A few disjointed points:

1) Who did this? It's very peculiar. They would have needed inside help to pilot the planes and get weapons on board. These were domestic American flights after all, and they hijacked four at once. This seems beyond the ability of a "death to infidels" yahoo, even Bin Laden. Look at how clumsy the first bombing was, with the rental van. It could be Bin Laden, but if it is, this elevates him to the status of a true supervillain. Like a comic book or action movie character, he'd have the ability to bypass any security system with ease.

Supporting this theory is the fact that only religous lunatics do suicide bombing attacks. You didn't see Timothy McVeigh sticking around to enter paradise. Also, Bin Laden did attack the World Trade Center before. But still, this seems so much beyond anything he's previously done, or anyone has previously done, I have large doubts.

If not a terrorist, then a government. But what government would do such a thing, knowing it's a declaration of war? The US will certainly retaliate lethally against any nation that is behind this, count on it. So I really don't know what to think.

2) What was the destination of the fourth plane? Why does everyone keep saying Camp David? Look it up on a map, that plane was heading straight for Washington. Yes, the target could have been Camp David, but why are they ruling out other targets? I would have aimed straight for the Capitol myself, just like in that Tom Clancy novel.

3) Speaking of Tom Clancy, the one book I've read by him, and probably the only book of his I'll ever read, is indeed the relevant book. Can't remember it's name, but it's the one where Japan goes to war with the US. After Japan's defeat, a frustrated Japanese-American pilot flies his fully fueled commercial jet airliner straight into the Capitol during Inauguration Night, killing the newly elected President and virtually all of Congress. The only surivor is the new vice-President, former National Security Advisor Jack Ryan...

It's a cheesier than hell cliffhanger ending, a crude "buy my next book and find out what happens" ploy that would be embarassing even for a pulp serial, but it is an interesting concept. I remember reading it and thinking, "Wow, why doesn't somebody ever do that? What a great idea for a terrorist". Still, even Clancy didn't conceive of four hijackings at once. This day is so strange, it really does make action movies seem plausible. Never had that feeling before.

My wife read the next book, where Jack Ryan assumes the Presidency. She said the first thing he did is immediately repeal Ford's executive order prohibiting assassinations by the American government. He dismissed it as a piece of paper signed by a guy who was never elected and set out to kill everyone involved with the attack. I have to admit, I hope Bush does the same.

Children

[Xouba]

>psychologists are showing up at school bus stops to deal
>with kids whose parents aren't coming home.

My god.

I didn't realize the tragedy of this all until I read this. I was feeling
quite sorry for all the dead, but the real tragedy is for the still living.
Just imagine you're a 5-10 old kid. Imagine what would mean to you. It
hurts just to try.

Who's the one to tell these kids why their parents are late today?

I think I just couldn't.

--
Xouba,
who just yesterday thought that life was not so bad.

Re:fp - mev

[billn]

I'm writing this response from a desk within the NOC of the Networld+Interop show in Atlanta, GA.
On opening day of what is still a very popular (and large) trade show, attendance was shockingly, and understandably, low. The CNN building directly across the street stood empty, evacuated against the remote possibility that it might be a target.

Streaming media products were quickly retooled and retasked. Clusters of stunned attendees and staff gathered around state-of-the-art flat panels and projection screens as today's events progressed. The 2x4 edge-to-edge video wall within the NOC has been displaying streaming media and television all day, workstation monitors spun to face outward so passerby's can have other places to view.

By 1 pm, Interop team volunteers were paired with Event staff to canvass the show floors to advise exhibitors that we'd be closing the show floor early to allow people to depart where possible. In between, people are emailing, messaging, calling, checking on loved ones. As I write this, Interop team members are still clustered within the I-Labs area, watching live newsfeeds streamed over the grid.

The shock of the incident is incredible. This is the kind of tragedy you see in movies and pray never happens. During one of a couple meetings today, someone present for the Oklahoma City bombing brought up a powerful notion: The victims of these tragedies, and the people they leave behind, need to know there is support for them, that people care. I consider myself to be a fairly thick skinned individual, and this event has struck me to the core.

We, as a chorus, are the voice of the world. Take the time to show your support. Resist the kneejerk response to lash out in anger. Even more, demolish the impulse to turn this into a laughing matter.

Allow me a brief moment to express some outrage: Within hours of the initial incident, the remains of the WTC were placed for auction on eBay. I'm sure someone thought it was funny. I'm sure some people still think it's funny. I hope those of you who do mention it in mixed company, and have to face down the family member of a victim of today's incredible tragedy.

Violence leads to more violence

[Zwei]

Or are you not paying attention to what those vermin are preaching in their newspapers, television programs, and mosques? [...] They started the fight. It's time to end it.

You know what that remind me of?
When I was in kindergarden, everytime there was a fight, we'd come up to the teacher, crying "He started!". That never helped us back then, and it won't help anybody, a man or a country, now.

Violence triggers more violence. We can trace the ME conflict back to the 19-th century, if we'd like to, when the first Zionists came to Israel.

Ech'ad Ha'am, one of the famous Zionist scholars, wrote in "Truth from Israel", published in 1891 (All the mistakes in the translation are mine:) "[The Jewish residents] are walking with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, tresspassing their property, beating them with violence and without need, and even praising such deeds".

Trying to kill each other won't solve the situation. It never did, and it never will. I live in the Middle East. To be precise, I live in Jerusalem. My dad was shot by an Egyptian soldier, and died from his wounds.

So I'm having a damn good seat in the middle of the conflict, and believe me, I don't care who started it. Justice won't do any good, and won't bring anybody back from the dead. We can only try and improve our future.

I lost a father, and that hurts. I don't want nobody else to lose a father as well, and I don't care wether he's "evil" or not, wether he got "god" by his side or not, wether he lives west or east of the border... Nobody.

This attack was retaliation

[marcmac]

This isn't going to be a popular post, but...

I can very well imagine that the attack today was carried out in retaliation for the US bombing someones home, killing their families, starving their children through sanctions, etc...

And with those criteria, the list of suspects is not short.

We've been bombing Iraq on a monthly basis since the last Bush was president - so often, in fact, that it no longer makes the news over here. But, on the receiving end, I'm sure that it does. Can we really imagine what it would be like to feel the way we do right now EVERY SINGLE DAY?

And no, I'm not condoning this attack - I'm merely pointing out that it's no more or less wrong than our attacks on the populations of other countries.

But we only attack military targets!

Not the case - we attack targets of strategic value, including factories, ports, etc... Where people work. And when we miss, we hit houses, schools, churches, etc.

As we reap, so shall we sow.

Sigh.

Here's a story on how low tech it was

[WillSeattle]

And just in case you think I just want to beat up on Jon for being a d.rk, here's a local story on how low tech the attack was.

How They Did It

A word for the innocent....

[catseye_95051]

As we deal with this day of horror and shock, we will want to act. Those who cannot understand that an American of Arabian descent is as much an American as one of western european descent may feel the urge to lash out at their fellow americans.

Don't.

The innocent hurt and dead are hurt and ead and nothing can undo that. Creating more innocent victims does nothing but make this act of terrorism all the more successful. I've known many Muslims in my time and they were all kind, sweet, gentle people. Holding them to blame for an act like this woudl be akin to holding all christians to blame for the nbuts who shoot doctors in the name of "christianity."

People are likening this to Perl Harbor. In the wake of Perl Harbor we as a society comitted one of the greatest organized crimed against americans ever comitted-- sending japanese americans to internment camps. Lets prove we are better then those that came before or us or at elast have learend from their mistakes. Our enemies are OUTSIDE this country, not within it.

No, but we can take what they fight for

[FreeUser]

Very difficult to find everyone in the organization, and very difficult to march an army in to win the war.

We are at the beginning of a difficult war. Please don't get me wrong, I'd like to see each of these cowardly terrorist recieve slow and painful deaths, but we must be smart, rational, and alert to win.

They fight for mecca.

We level mecca.

They fight for palestine?

We sow the palistinian soil with kobalt and radioactive salt.

They fight for .

We nuke anything remotely associated with country/cause/religion.

We can win this sort of fight, on our own terms, if we so desire. Chances are, however, after a day to cool off and begin thinking rationally again, we will decide the moral and ethical costs of doing any of the above are simply too high.

Once I am rational again (having one's friend describe hearing his colleagues burn alive while he listens over the telephone doesn't tend to make one rational) I will probably not agree with exterminating those who did this and ending their history, once and for all. But that is tommorow. Today, I want each and every member of the society that spawned these vermin to die. Preferably by nuclear fire.

Re:Nobody to make war against

[catseye_95051]

Those that give them shelter and support.

That may seem callous and devoid of feeling for the "innocents" of those countries but innocents are ALWAYS among the first victims of wars between countries and in sheltering those who would attack us IMO those countries DO wage war against us.

The root of the Muslim faith

[wytcld]

In a museum in Istanbul is displayed a letter from the Prophet to the head of the Egyptian Coptics saying in so many words that he can convert or be killed. The very source of the Muslim faith explicitly favored killing. We do not serve truth or tolerance by pretending that Mohammed was a good man, or that anyone who truly follows him was good. We will be accosted by more 'martyrs' as long as that Faith persists in its fundamentalist form, because the Prophet was in many dimensions truly evil.

This is not to say that Muslims are evil - most are not fundamentalists, and are no better or worse than the rest of the run of humanity. But there's a very good reason why Turkey outlaws Muslim fundamentalism, even though their culture remains of the Faith - they know that the core is dangerously laced. We must not fall into the error that Muslim fundamentalists are no worse than, say, Christian fundamentalists (who after all only shoot physicians who provide abortions). There is no difference in kind between fundamentalist Muslim and fundamentalist Nazi belief, and neither should be tolerated when it is armed, anywhere on the face of this Earth.

Excuse me, I watch the towers fall this morning from my window.

Parallels in history

[artemis67]

I am going to agree with Jon, here (gasp!). This is how War is played in the twenty-first century. No one has the power to have a conventional war with the US, so it must result in terrorism and guerilla warfare. Its not pretty, but this is how war has evolved.

I'm reminded of the Roman Empire... one of the factors that led to the fall of that Empire was the constant raids by the Visigoths; not so much a nation as a nomadic people. They certainly weren't a match for the Empire in formal battle, but they led a fairly consistent "hit and run" campaign that greatly weakened the Romans and demoralized them.

Likewise, it's hard to pin down modern terrorists as a nation, but they execute suicide attacks whose primary purpose is to wear down and demoralize. They know they can't win a head-on battle with most governments, but they can wreak havoc if they can continue to hit us on our own soil on a regular basis.

Re:One terrorist/hijacker alive though wounded

[catseye_95051]

Read the news. There were 4 planes downed. Only 3 of them went into buildings. Of the 3 that went into buildings only two hit at a height, the pentagon one hit at basicly ground level.

Its amazing what dumb luck can do. There are documented cases of people falling out of airplanes (at flyign altitude) and walking away with no more then severe bruises. I wouldnt want to bet my life on it but it does sometiems happen.

I'm Sorry Jon

[krmt]

I completely forgot to send my best hopes and wishes for your friend. I didn't mean to belittle your article at all, if that's how it came across (I didn't expect it to get modded up really) and my hopes go with him and everyone else.

Yes, And The New Spire Should Be From The Old

[cybrpnk]

Not only should we rebuild the towers immediately but the new spires on the top should be cast from metal melted down from the two that are down now. What terrorists may knock down we will hold higher than ever.

Re:fp - mev

[connorbd]

People, turn to whoever you wish to turn to. I choose both God and man myself, but the point is to find support where you can get it.

/Brian

tragedy

[two_tone]

in my life i have witnessed a few great national disasters. the first i can recall iswhen i was in grade school (k-4) and we were all ushered into the library. on that day i saw the challenger explode over and over again. i must have been 9 or 10 years old. it was once of the most horrific events that i have ever witnessed. this morning i was fixing a server in the datacenter between 8 and 10 am. when i came back to the fifth floor. i was ushered into a room of stark white faces and people crying. you have to understand that my office is only 10 miles from the pentagon and we are a dod contractor so naturally there was reason to worry. it felt like it did almost 15 years ago i was in a room with a bunch of people i knew watching a horrendous catastrophie over and over again. i wish that on no one. small children should never have to see that. parents should not have to live it. and the rest of us should not have to either. things like this should never happen. my deepest regret and infinite sadness goes out to the victims and their families during this darkest of hours.

Re:dude - what are you saying?

[MxTxL]

I know, I was so blind suggesting that we do something, you had the answer all the time: let's PRAY!

Yeah, that's the ticket. Maybe if we pray a little bit, God will make the bad guys stop.

No, that probably won't work... hmm... let's have some peace talks. Yeah, I bet that would do it. We have some peace talks, come up with a new peace accord and PUFF! all our problems are solved!

No, that probably won't work either. Hmmm... let's apologize for 2000 years of ethnic strife and religious fighting. Yeah, we can prostrate ourselves before these people, tell them that we are sorry for things that we caused 2000 years ago (blindly ignoring the fact that our country isn't even 300 years old). Yes, that will do it! Maybe we'll look so pathetic, that they will stop.

Well, probably not. How about we send them AID!! Yeah, ship them money! If we start giving bin Laden a bunch of money, if we buy him off he'll stop. That could actually work! Well, at least until we STOP paying a FUCKING MURDERER.

Well, we could kill him.... Make him bleed a little bit. We descend on him like the wrath of God and send him to hell where he belongs. Maybe he'll stop then. Yeah, he will, but shoot, that would be politically uncorrect. We CAN'T just going around killing people. We can't bring mass murders to justice without a trial.

Well, mother-fuck! I'm out of ideas, what do YOU propose we do?

sorry

[davey23sol]

Go ahead and mod this down...

But, Katz... this was really not appropriate today.

You made yourself a part of this story. This story is not about you. Hell, it's not really about technology. This is about thousands of people that died because some idiot wanted to make a point.

It's really sad you had to post a grandstanding article on such a terrible day.

What rank tripe

[Ars-Fartsica]

A trial and conviction would be a much more satisfying and peaceful solution.

At what point does a nation become so weak, so dissipated, that it seeks to answer a declaration of war with a criminal trial?

I can assure you that there are thousands of famillies who would be revolted at the concept of granting such odious individuals the presumption of innocence.

Re:What rank tripe

[Ars-Fartsica]

Exercise: what would have happened if the Allies dispensed with the Nuremburg trials and just killed the "odious individuals"?

Warning: you are way out of your league. I have studied the transcripts from Nurmeburg and the trial details at great length. Nuremburg was not a criminal trial - it was a series of contrived declarations that were designed to lend legitimacy to what were essentially preordained executions. There was never any intention of granting the presumption of innocence to the Nuremburg defedents, and the case was not tried within a framework where this dispensation was granting as a precursor.

But thanks for tossing around more of the pseudo-intellectual bullshit that amounts to a piss-poor devil's advocate argument.

Armored cockpit

[mr100percent]

Can't they make the cockpits armored, with thicker doors, and strong locks, thicker than the lavatory doors that don't hold anytbody back?

The people doesn't matter.

[Pig Hogger]

This is the real thing, and it's not about the planes or the black boxes or the television. It's about the people, because that's what Matters.

If the people mattered, you wouldn't see firms headquartered around where the WTC was pick greedily and destroy the lives of the many people who were downsided all over the place in the name of the sacrosanct bottom-line.

The pisser is that even that amount of wanton destruction won't teach them that little!!!!

RE: What Repercussions?

[Lunachick]

With regard to retaliation, I am left with only one thought: How many lives will it take to prove what the lives lost were worth?

There is a world of difference between retaliation and justice. I have little doubt that retaliation and additional loss of life will occur, but have reservations as to whether or not justice will truly be served in the process. This saddens me greatly.

With regard to the consequences of these attacks, I offer the following for consideration. Loss of innocence is the most striking casualty, regardless of the actual, final body count. The realization that horrifying events such as those witnessed today can happen here, on U.S. soil, is now a part of our national consciousness. The technology we rely upon on a daily basis for benign purposes has been successfully reinvented as devastating weaponry. How we deal with this loss of innocence, however, is what I believe to be of the greatest importance. The psychological ramifications of today's events will likely be years in the making; our cultural landscape will be undeniably altered.

I am a resident of Seattle. A little less than two years ago, residents of this city experienced the declaration of martial law in response to the WTO riots. While I am uncertain as to how we will respond to the terrorist acts experienced today, I have little doubt that the civil rights of our nation's average citizeny will be impacted. I hope that the decisions that are made for the purpose of ostensibly protecting our country are sensible ones; I fear, however, that instead we will lose something precious in the balance, that the freedoms we have long celebrated will be inexorably altered. In the wake of today's events, this is what I fear the most.

proverb - Martin Luther King

[Technodummy]

If I cannot do great things, I can do small things in a great way. -Dr. Martin Luther King

Pearl Harbor? I wish it was that easy.

[frAme57]

At least the aftermath of Pearl Harbor was easy to grasp and propose solutions for: Japanese national forces attacked American national assets, so the US government sent forces to pound Japan into submission. But we do not have a common enemy to unify against and revile. We do not have an island or a country at which to direct our anger and our weapons.

We weren't attacked by a known enemy. It is more like being mugged and beaten in broad daylight, and not even getting a look at the bastard. And to top it, everyone around you acts as though they didn't see a thing. And this is on a previoiusly unimaginable scale.

So what do we do? Years of painstaking detective work resulting in a trial in the Hague? Anticlimactic and unsatisfying. Nuke the entire Middle East into one big godforsaken glass parking lot? Very satisfying. And it would probably solve the question of Jerusalem by making it uninhabitable for tens of thousands of years. But its a stupid, knee-jerk idea. Don't forget all the cries of "Islamic fundamentalist terrorism" immediately after OKC. Invasion and occupation? Volleys of cruise missles? Impractical and expensive, not to mention where and against who?

Right now it would be a relief to go down to the recruiting office and say "I wanna go kill me some fuckin' (insert demographic), sir" But all I could do was drop off a pint at the bloodbank and stare at Peter Jennings and the Talking Head Band all day.

btw, i do not mean to criticize Jon Katz, just the comparison to Pearl Harbor. He's not the first or only one to mention it - he just gave me an opening to bring it up. I sincerely hope he (and all concerned) finds his people alive and well.

Good One from Katz

[hbo]

A poignant and insightful piece from Jon Katz. I generally have strong reactions to his stuff. I usually hate it, but occasionally something he writes hits the spot for me. In this piece, his often (to my taste) overly frothy prose is .slightly muted, and matches his subject perfectly. The shocking irony of one NYC news anchor turning back to his monitor, which a moment before had clearly shown the second airliner approaching the WTC, and wondering about the cause of the explosion was not lost on me. In this Pearl Harbor, we have all been eyewitnesses, with a minimum of filtering.

I doubt that the anger against the probable involvement of fundamentalist muslim terrorism is any more virulent than that aimed at the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, but surely it has arisen more quickly in the age of instant messaging? Another thing that strikes me, not for the first time, but with weightier impact, is the opportunity to hear dissident voices. Among the thousands of posts on Slashdot today are a wide variety of attitudes and opinions about how to approach these events, what the truth may or may not be, and what responses to offer to them. This stuff rarely played out so thoroughly in public before the Internet. It remains to be seen if this airing of reason and emotion will make a difference in the shape of the public response to these events, but it's fascinating to watch the process unfold.

Peace unto you, Jon Katz. I pray to whatever god may be that your friends are safe, or if not, that you can find your way to safety on the other side of your grief.

Geeze. Who's being "overly frothy" now? 8)

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[Steve B]

We rebuilt Japan because we had a few fists full of shame from murdering more civilians than a few airplanes could ever kill.

Let's get real, folks -- we rebuilt Japan for the same reason we rebuilt Western Europe: to aid our side in the Cold War.

New point of failure

[Gorimek]

That might be worth exploring, but remember that adding functionality to disable pilot control over the plane carries the risk of that circuitry malfunctioning, and bringing down non hijacked planes.

Re:New point of failure

[dolanh]

You're not really adding much functionality that isn't already in place in modern airliners. Just protocol.

WTC Not Real Target

[Sly Mongoose]

There are people who abhor the idea that if you don't want to face east and put your butt in the air five times a day, you don't have to. That if you are female you can wear a pair of shorts and a halter-top in public. That you are not subject to the summary whim of uneducated clerics.

These people are horrified that others live this way, and that the Finger of Retribution does not strike down from the clouds above to wipe away the stain. They are horrified because the continued refusal of the divinity to take action casts their entire, restrictive, fundamentalist creed into question. So they have decided to be the agent of the divinity; to rain down fire from above, and to scourge the wrongdoers personally.

They are not attacking the people, the buildings, or the government of the day. Their attack is really targeted against the way of life; the basic freedoms that their own followers secretly covet; the truth that makes a mockery of the lies that they preach.

When I read about requiring travel-documents for inter-state movement, I feel concern. When I hear about demanding ID from anyone who boards a subway train, I feel dismay. When I see people suggesting we grant carte blanche to the FBI's "Carnivore" and similar programmes, I feel fear. Because if these things happen, then the fundamental freedoms that we enjoy will have been eroded. Then the attack will have succeeded. And the bastards will have won.

Re:Kabul is under attack

[frknfrk]

you heard wrong. the afghan rebel group northern light has claimed responsibility for the bombings there (kabul).

Re:Encryption exportation

[Dwonis]

I dont think encryption use or funding for/against it is a reasonable factor against those 50,000 lives.

Exactly. Let's spend our resources doing something that will actually work! I could write an RSA implementation in a day, and so could anyone else.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

First of all, according to a friend of mine who was an Army Ranger and has seen some real action, Three Kings is pretty damn ridiculous.

As for which country we should fight in this case, obviously it should be the ones that support terrorists like these. Countries must be held accountable for the actions of their citizens. Have there been successful wars as such? Well, terrorism has really only developed to it's present civilian-targeting objective-less passive-aggressive form over the last few decades, so no, not really. How should it be fought? Like the war we did win. Do I expect them to react like the Japanese? Of course not. Japan acted out of arrogance, wheras most terrorists act out of ill-defined nihlistic anger. Do I think a Marshall-plan-esque solution based on economic development and military-political pressure could work? Hell yes.

Obviously, war is not pretty, or good. But it is sometimes necessary to make people who use violence understand what they're bringing on themselves, especially when they're only aware of a small part of it. Whatever it takes to break their destructive cycles is justified.

The Truth Comes Home

[looie]

When Israelis kill Palestinian women and babies, Americans are silent. When American-trained Argentinian death squads were dropping "communists" out of airplanes to "disappear" them, Americans were silent. When the US gov't fought to prevent free AIDS drugs from being given to South Africans, Americans were silent. When Christians were slaughtering Muslims in Croatia and Bosnia, Americans were silent. When Irish Americans were funding the IRA bombings, Americans were silent. When the US gov't was supporting Batista, Somoza and Noriega, Americans were silent. When the US gov't was funding the Contra murders of innocent villagers, Americans were silent. When the US gov't engineered the murder of Allende, Americans were silent. When the US gov't turned away shiploads of Jews fleeing Hitler's Final Solution, Americans were silent.

Now, the pain of the rest of the world has come to us, and there's a great outcry. All around the world, ordinary, innocent people are living everyday with events such as we have just experienced -- events frequently paid for with American money and carried out with American weapons. Are we somehow so special, that we should inflict and allow to be inflicted, so much misery and death on the rest of the world, and bear none of our own?

Perhaps, some dead men have answered that question already.

mp

Bad technological solution

[gad_zuki!]

I'd like to see the psychological testing on two average pilots in their steel shell watching passenger after passenger being executed until they do what they're told. Obviously crashing into a building would be counter-productive but telling the pilot to, say , land in NY instead of LA would probably work.

Pilots are people and I'd like to see the success rate of remote control landings on big airliners.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

Fine. At least you're honest about your intentions. I'm just sick of people advocating the bombing of other countries in retribution, yet continuing to think that they are somehow better than the so-called terrorists that are bombing our country in defense of what they believe in. If you admit that its a savage world and the strongest will dominate, then you're at least looking at things realistically. Just don't pretend that we're all just innocent bystanders. We're no more innocent than the people that we bomb because we don't like what their government is doing.

Yeah, we're rich and have the luxury of the most sophisticated and well-equiped military in the world. Most countries are stuck with hardware we haven't used for 40 years. Yet people still think that they're supposed to challenge our military to a good clean fight or something. Yeah, right. These people are doing what most any other people would do in their situation. They're fighting back the only way they can. We'll do the same. If we're smart and lucky, we'll probably win. I'm just sick to death about hearing all this shit about how it was a "cowardly attack", etc. These people died for what they beleive in, defending it the only way they could. I don't think that makes them cowards. I think that makes them desperate and devoted.

Re:fuck justice

[J'raxis]

Because today I saw thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of my fellow Americans murdered on TV. Right there, up close and personal, so many people died that the town I live in would be *entirely obliterated*, down to every last man, woman, and child, if we had suffered so many deaths.

So now youve seen all at once what many citizens of these Arab nations see on a daily basis. Except its the Israelis or more extremist groups or even us bombing them. You want us to nuke them? I hope youre prepared when someone sneaks a briefcase bomb into New York and vaporizes it in retaliation.

And if you think Im being cold-hearted to attack you thus Calm the fuck down. You sound as irrational, if not more so, than the men who committed this atrocity. You want revenge. You want blood. You want fiery death to rain down upon them; you want them obliterated, destroyed utterly. You are now reiterating the same rhetoric as you hear their groups spouting off on a daily basis.

Prayed to who?

[PhilHibbs]

Probably to the same god that the terrorists were praying to as they flew to their deaths. I can't imagine it being anyone other than Islamic fundamentalists that could muster up four suicide crews. What we have to come to terms with is that these aren't evil people, they just believe in a system of right and wrong that puts us firmly in the wrong. To them, we deserve this, and bombing them flat in hasty retalliation will just confirm their belief.

Yes it IS Pearl Harbor

[Squeeze Truck]

The comparisons are not accidental.

This incident will be used by our government to whip up citizen support for whatever fucked up international adventure they decide to go on next. It won't matter that the country we decide to invade will have had little to do with this, Americans are so mad now I think they'd be willing to kill just about anybody.

Re:Hopefully this hasn't already been posted

[seanmeister]

Interesting - I read Xineohpoel's original "prophecy" that was posted on 8/31/01. He originally stated that something would happen on 9/1/01 ("911"). When that didn't happen, on 9/4 he said "Wait 7 days, and then maybe I'll answer this post. You see, I am going away in seven days, and you will not hear from me again."

Now, I'm inclined to believe that alt.prophecies.nostradamus is populated by full-on wackadoos, but that's a pretty good call.

And the real kicker now is that the original 911 post from 8/31 has disappeared from groups.google.com. What's up with that??

About technologies

[Ektanoor]

First I would like to send my condolences to all victims and their relatives of this horrendous crime. We are all with you.

Now about Katz:
"Technology turns planes into weapons. It tracks aircraft hundreds of miles away. It brings us instant and horrific images. It sends us to e-mail, telephones and cell phones to spread news, facts, rumors and stories."

No it is not technology that turns things into weapons. It is something inside us: the animal instincts. Instincts that are far from the human mind, instincts that lead people to hate, fear, rancour and submission. For terrorists there are no weapons. Their weapons is our emotions.

According to certain reports these guys took these airplanes with knifes, tear gas and nearly bare hands. And used these airplanes as kamikadze cruiser missiles. Where is technology here? They used everything in their hands, from a knife to an airplane, to give a blow in our souls. For them, the cost of tens of thousands of lives means nothing. For them the destruction of one of them main world trade centers means nothing to their pockets. For them, your fear and hatred means everything.

These people did not choose military or economical targets. They choosed symbols. They didn't choose an airplane as an high technological weapon. They choose it because it was big and has lots of fuel. These guys didn't decide to destroy thousands of American lives and billions of dollars of property. They choose the souls of millions of America's and World citizens to leave a tool of terror.

These guys don't need ballistic missiles, laser weapons, GPS, sattelites, washing machines, Ferraris, TV sets or Internet. They need you. And they will use everything in their hand, from sticks to airports to leave in you soul a permanent wound. Not long ago they used boats and dynamite. Today they used airplanes and knifes. Tomorrow they may use anything else. But they will always use your horror.

However you should not give ground for your emotions to overcome you mind. A terrorist is nothing in front of those who cold-mindly and objectively target him. Not with cruisers and last cry stealth airplanes. But with the aim the he no longer will be a menace to our relatives, friends, co-citizens and countries. Terrorists can only hide beyond your fear and hatred. But when mind and justice comes up, he has no place to run. Like President Putin said, when chechen terrorists struck in Daghestan: "We will go after every terrorist.. We will nail him, even if he hides up in the toilet".

Over the top newspaper editorials

[ChrisDolan]

Numerous editorials in todays NY Post have advocated ignoring the law and using racist, mob logic to correct the injustice of yesterday's attack. These frothing calls to action are not only irresponsible, they are barbarous.

"Who is responsible for yesterday's carnage? That's no great mystery."
- editorial 4006

The law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. Until there is concrete evidence pointing to the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, there can be no action. If the US attacks without evidence, then we are terrorists as well, and would deserve all the condemnation we are piling on our - still unknown - attackers.

"To hell with Bill Clinton's 'gather the evidence and proceed to court' approach."
- editorial 4022

"The response ... should be as simple as it is swift - kill the bastards. No, I don't mean hunt them, arrest them, extradite them and prosecute them in a court of law. I mean a far quicker and neater form of retribution for this cabal of cowards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to."
- Steve Dunleavy editorial 3999

Both of these editorialists call for dismissing the due process on which our justice system is based. They call for the removal of equal treatment under the law. These demands for extreme measures are demands for the creation of a dictatorship, of a police state. Assassinations, executions without trials, condemnation without evidence - these are the hallmarks of regimes like Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao Tse Tung's China and Hitler's Germany.

Consistent and reasoned responses are imperiitive in civilized society. Everything else is barbarism.

Re:Be Pro-Active

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

Basicaly what you propose is:

Join forces with England, France, Itally, Germany, Spain and Portugal and sail abroad to reconquer the empires and colonies these countries once had, right ?

Wrong. Some of these countires are now much diferent from the time they were conquered by those nations. They won't fall this easy, and if US starts bulling them some former colonies that now have shit loads of military power (China, India, etc...) may react.

This is time of re-action, and it must be precisely aimed agains the ones who blown the buildings. Nail them down, just like you did whith Japan.

After this is acomplished, it'll be the time to be pro-active, not with weapons, but with money, technology and support to help them create developed nations, with all the things we take for granted: well paid jobs, health care, education, etc.

This was done in Japan and Germany once and it worked. These nations are between US's best allies, even after beeing leveled down by your military machine.

Remember this, you don't make friends by force, hiting them. you make friends HELPING them and caring them.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

I'm not proud of it. I'm not saying they shouldn't be brought to justice. As to your question of what those people did, they did the same as the rest of us. They were citizens of the US, and responsible for the acts of the US government. I'm just trying to say that there is no way we can separate ourselves from the actions of our government. We are responsible. We seem to forget this much too easily.

Buildings and Such

[virg_mattes]

> Make it two more sides. I want to be able to call it the Sexagon!

No, no, that would be the Septagon. The Sexagon is the new proposed name for the White House.

Virg

We Solved this, Sort Of...

[virg_mattes]

The idea we thought about was that the flight control system can be comandeered from the ground. If the pilot needs to override the ground control, he needs to enter a code on the panel. With the code, he/she gets control back. Without it, remote control can't be disabled. It's certainly far from perfect (if hijackers want to crash the plane, they just blow up the control panel), but it adds difficulty to any non-suicidal attempts to take over the plane (barring a planted pilot, which is really tough to do, or a pilot who caves under duress, which is more likely) and it's good incentive not to kill the pilot as a matter of course.

Again, it's not perfect, but it could certainly help. Add to it a durable cockpit door that's heavy to inhibit forcing it and airtight to prevent gas or depressurization attacks, and the threat of hijacking can be reduced quite a bit.

Virg

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

You are insane, or evil, or both if you think for one instant that this is the way most people would act.

In the same position, I believe they would. I don't think that makes me insane or evil though. These were not just random humans either. They were targeting US citizens. I also don't believe it was for some "nebulous revenge." Was our bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki done for revenge? We killed thousands of "innocent" people. Why? Because we considered it acceptable rather than lose our own troops in a military assault. These people HAVE declared war on us. But they're not going to be stupid and challenge our military to a good clean fight. That's as much suicide as their deaths on those planes. They want to fight us and they don't want to lose. They are using the same logic we did in nuking Japan. They can't afford to lose their people in a conventional fight and they can't afford to lose. So they will fight when and where they can and kill as many of us as possible.

Now, I don't want to die. I don't want to see others die. Don't misunderstand me and think that I'm supporting their actions. I'm just saying that I understand their actions. Like any actions, there will be consequences. Listen to the president and congress to find out what those consequences will be. Just as they've said, it is a war. It's just not a conventional war. You can't expect them to challenge the US military to a duel. You can't expect them to fight clean. They will fight to win, just as the US has always done. We're just getting our first up-close look at war in a really long time. We don't like it. Perhaps we should consider that when we're sending military aid all over the place and doling out cash and weapons to every tin pot dictator we happen to support at the moment to get our oil fix.

Wake Up Call

[virg_mattes]

George Washington was called a terrorist by British generals.

That said, your post is great. It deserves to be modded up.

Virg

A solution at last!

[nagora]

I dropped to my knees -- following the lead of a bunch of strangers -- and prayed.

Well, fuck, if only you had thought of doing that BEFORE the planes hit.

What a waste of time.

FILs

[virg_mattes]

>I don't give a DAMN who is responsible. Now we have the ability
> to wipe to earth of all of these evil soulless bastards.

If you don't care who's responsible, who do you wipe out? If you can't identify all of these "evil bastards", you don't have the ability to wipe them out.

> Who many of the fucking liberals don't realize is that these
> terrorists are evil. You can say that violence begets violence and
> you can sing 'Kum-by-ya' until the second coming of Christ but the bottom
> line is that there are evil people in this world and these people DO NOT
> understand anything but force.

And you appear to be one of those people.

> What did the West do to force Hitler to invade Europe?

Bad example. What we did was enforce the Treaty of Versailles, which was written at the end of WWI. Even the French, who drafted the treaty, now universally agree that it was a hugely draconian treaty and because of that it was pivotal in allowing Hitler to rise to power in the '30s.

> What did the West do to force the Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan?

Ooh, another bad example. We financed the formation of the Taliban (sound familiar?) and we even built the caves and bunkers that protected them from Russian carpet bombing (and more recently protected bin Laden's troops from our cruise missiles). This group committed numerous terrorist acts against Russian targets, prompting the invasion. Use the FOIA request to get information from the State Department about the Taliban during the Russian invasion. All this is documented in government files.

> What did the West do to force the PLO to continually attack Israel?

Ouch, strike three. The U.S. put the teeth into the creation of the nation of Israel, basically by putting Jews displaced in WWII on shore with American weapons and a lot of money. Since the Palestinians were already there, and claimed ownership of the land, a fight ensued wherein the Israeli forces pushed the Palestinians off the lands designated by the Allies, bulldozed their stuff and built their own settlements. This (for some reason that is only fathomable to sane people) pissed off the Palestinians, who promptly formed the PLO and have been fighting with Israel ever since. So, in answer to your question, we financed a mass displacement of their people.

> What did the West do to force Iraq to invade Kuwait?

Well, finally. Hey, one out of four ain't bad.

> The USA did not start this. The USA is not responsible in any
> way for this. By God, we do need to finish this.

Nice try, but it's not true. I'm even on your side that retributive strikes are necessary to eliminate known terrorists. I'm just not pig-headed enough to think that there's no blame on our side. Understanding why these terrorists do what they do is important because it's the first step in stopping terrorist acts. "Kill them all" tactics have proven ineffective all throughout history, from the British Expeditionary Force that tried it on the American colonists up to the U.S. forces that tried it in Vietnam. There's a better answer, and reining in our collective temper is the starting point. Vengeance is proper in this case, but how we execute that vengeance will determine how effective a deterrent it is.

Virg

Air traffic is why the country is down.

[DunbarTheInept]

-It makes easier to disable a whole country with little effort (who can argue about this now).

I can.

The fact that a lot of business was conducted in that part of New York is NOT why the country is paralyzed right now. It's because of the shutdown of all air traffic. Air frieght isn't being delivered. People aren't returning from business meetings. Stuff came to a halt when the only means of fast transport in this country was pinched off.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

Regardless, I don't think Japan is complaining about their present state of affairs, especially considering that prior to the Marshall Plan, the usual fate of a defeated enemy was to suffer and pay whatever reparations the victor demanded. That was exactly what happened to Germany after WW1, which suffered worse than anyone during the great depression, and the result was that a certain mentally unstable gentleman took over the country and nearly the world.

Just because the plan worked to America's military and economic benefit doesn't mean that it hurt the recipients. It was better than they could have ever hoped for.

Re:You think this is war? I'LL show you War!

[cryptochrome]

What exactly is the "Kill Americans" attitude that apparently motivates the bihn Ladens of the world supposed to accomplish besides striking back at America? It's not going to get Israel out of Palestine, it's not going to get us to back off, and it's certainly not going to make these scattered terrorist networks and 3rd world countries more imposing towards the world's only superpower. The most they could possibly hope for is some sort of war they can't possibly win.

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

The Allies island-hopping prelude to the expected invasion was convincing proof that obtaining a Japanese surrender, via invasion, would have been a protracted, costly affair for all sides.

Are you saying we nuked them because we were concerned about their losses?? I don't buy that for a second and I defy you to dig up some evidence of it. We were concerned about our own losses due to the invasion being "a protracted, costly affair" for our side.

First, you don't know who "these people" are, so how can you claim this?

True, I'm just assuming they are who our intelligence agencies and others believe them to be. It has yet to be proven.

Second, there has been no formal declaration of war, unless you know something no one else knows.

Was there a formal declaration of war when we invaded Korea? Vietnam? Iraq? Anyone else we've bombed? Anybody at all since WWII? Wars exist whether we have nice little pieces of paper that say we're at war or not.

In fact, we did not use the bomb on a purely military target, and in that, we were wrong.

Just wrong? Not evil or cowardly? What about Nagasaki? Just wrong there too? Why? Because we had a piece of paper saying we're at war?

But to catagorize the decision to use nuclear weapons in a declared war as equivalent to the terrorists decision to ram civilian airliners into skyscrapers without warning is disingenuous at best.

I believe Bin Laden's group has been warning us of a large attack for the last several weeks. We send a couple planes over and destroy 2 of Japan's cities. Bin Laden's group takes a couple of our planes and destroys 2 of our largest buildings. I really don't believe that that's any different.

And what will you say when we are terrorized for not sending military aid to a particular group?

I don't know that it'll be a real problem. Switzerland doesn't seem to have a big terrorist problem. We can still have relations with the rest of the world. We just need to not take sides during wars. (before you jump out of your chair, hear me out) I know that neutrality isn't always possible. WWII is a good example. Switzerland didn't want to get involved, but it did anyway, even if only behind the scenes in order to keep the Nazis from invading. And if it hadn't been for the US, Russia, and Britain defeating the Nazis, Switzerland would have been occupied eventually anyway. The bottom line is that we HAVE chosen to take sides in many wars. Some with direct aid and some by funding or arming one of the sides in the conflict. With that choice comes a price. We WILL be attacked. Terrorism is what our government calls it and the people of this country are ignorant enough to believe that. It's really just plain old war. We're just not used to it taking place on our territory. War is something that happens over in Europe and the Middle East. It doesn't happen in the US. -- It does now.

The civilized world needs to demand an end to terror against noncombatants.

What exactly is the "civilized world"? Are we part of it? What are the qualifications? How many of those have we broken?

If we don't demand this, every disaffected group nursing a supposed wrong will feel justified in imposing their demands, right or wrong, upon the world by the cold-blooded, calculating slaughter of children and other innocents.

I suppose you're lamenting the fact that conventional wars can't really happen anymore. The US is too powerful. We can send our military in to kick the ass of practically anybody we have a problem with. We just whip up a convenient excuse and the people at home will cheer the war on. One day we just decide that we suddenly care about how some group or other is being treated. Now that's not really why we're there, otherwise we would've done something long ago. But it gives the people at home a warm fuzzy feeling about the good deed their country is doing. Why do we lie to ourselves though? Why do we think that we can take part in wars with impunity?

Why do we think we make make the rules for the world? We don't like drugs. It doesn't matter that nobody is forcing them on us. We're gonna tell other countries what they're allowed to grow and what they can't grow. We're going to arm and train people in other countries that will side with us so they can maim and massacre those that don't side with us. Is that evil and cowardly too? Nah. We just gave them the weapons and training. We're not responsible for them after that. We are one seriously deluded nation.

A Liberal Dose of Discussion

[virg_mattes]

> I do not care who is specifically responsible.

Then where do you start? Do you simply assume that you know who did it, and just keep cirling outward until you assume you've enveloped everyone? This makes no sense. If you don't know who's specifically responsible, you're shooting at random.

> This is the same as if a gang of 5 murder someone. Unless one of them turns on the others, the DA doesn't care who is the murderer. The DA tries ALL of them for murder. This is the same thing.

I guess you're not a lawyer or a judge. The DA not only cares who is the murderer in your gang, but although it can try all of them, the court must convict each of them separately. If there's enough evidence to convict three, but not enough to convict two, they don't call for majority and lock them all up.

> About Hitler. You are a bit wrong. Sure maybe the treaty brought
> Hitler to power. But Hitler ONLY started invading and land
> grabbing when no one stood up to him.

The first place Hitler annexed was the Sudetenland, which was part of pre-WWI Germany. Nobody "said" anything (in fact, France "said" quite a bit, but decided it wasn't ready to fight another war) because it was widely seen as an internal matter. When he annexed Austria, many of the allies promptly declared war on Germany. So, he didn't grab any land uncontested that wasn't part of Germany before WWI.

> Ok, we built bunkers, to protect them from carpet bombing, from which they attacked the Soviet Union, then the S.U. invaded?

You're misreading me, and not following history. We financed the creation of the Mujahideen (sp?), which started terroristic attacks against the U.S.S.R., they responded by invading, and we responded to that by financing the weapons and the construction of hard points. It's fairly easy to find fault in that, no?

> Sorry Charlie. Just because the Palestinians claimed the land does not make it theirs.

By your logic, anybody could take over any land they wanted. Not only did the Palestinians claim the land, they lived there. Basically, you're saying that the only claims on land are claims that can be defended by force, and that's exactly what happened. But, that doesn't make it any more right to them.

> This would be the same at the US govt giving land the the Jews in South Carolina and some group living in a county there saying that it was theirs.

There's the slight difference that the U.S. government didn't have any land rights in the Middle East. Few will deny the fact that the U.S. government has some claim to South Carolina, but no such right of territory existed for what is now Israel (which, by the way, was a part of Jordan until we annexed it). This example is the same as the U.S. government giving land in Egypt to the Jews, and local people complaining that it was theirs.

> And as for the Israeli's kicking the Palestinians ass'es oh well. The Palestinians forced that issue a while back the the Israeli's stood their ground and even puched them back. In a war sometimes you win land and sometimes you lose land. The Palestinians have always lost. But they started the war.

Two points: First, the Palestinians were there before the Israelis showed up, so the Israelis didn't "stand their ground", they pushed them off the land. Second, since (by military definition) the Israelis invaded Jordan (remember, this land was part of Jordan on the world map since nearly the 1600s), you can't exactly say that the Palestinians started the war.

> And Arafat showed his true colors last year. He was offered MORE than
> he asked for. And he turned it down. He doesn't want peace and he proved it.

I did some investigative legwork about this, and it turns out you're wrong. What was offered to the PLO was a piece of land that was larger than the parts of the West Bank that the PLO wanted, but it wasn't located on the West Bank. Since the whole reason for the fight is that the West Bank is holy land to the Palestinians, this wasn't by any means more than what he wanted, it was different, and it was unacceptable to them. He doesn't want a peace that involves Palestine displacement from their holy lands, but that's not the same as not wanting peace at any price (for an analogy, think about whether the American people would be willing to trade the grounds of the Alamo for a 600-acre tract of land somewhere near Mexico City). It seems you've fallen victim to spin doctoring. You might want to take a look at the actual treaty papers (they're on the 'Net) before you judge.

> A few decades ago, NO terrorist would attack the USA.

Um, terrorists have been attacking the USA for centuries. They usually reserved their attacks for U.S. military establishments in other parts of the world, but as those targets get harder to attack, they've changed their focus to the relatively easier mainland. This isn't an indication of boldness, it's an indication of A) the relative ease of attacking the U.S. mainland as opposed to U.S. military targets, and B) the general increase in terrorism in the entire world (war has gotten to be too expensive for most nations so terrorism is the only route).

> The only way to deal with terrorist is to out the fear of God into them.

What, the fear of your God? No more likely than you kneeling and facing east every day.

> Fear and only fear keeps terrorists from attacking. This is all they understand.

It's odd that the people who make a living out of studying terrorists don't agree with you, as you've obviously sunk at least a full ten seconds into your ideas about what drives terrorism. But, sadly, the experts have discovered that fear of reprisal is virtually ineffective against most terrorists. What seems to work best is infiltration, but, hey, just because full-scale military might hasn't ever worked in the past doesn't mean we can't try it once again.

> As for understanding them, they do this because we are America.
> We have the best country in the world and our freedom is what they strike at.

Although I agree that we have the best country in the world to live in, that's not what drives the attacks. They are striking at us because we back up their enemies. They couldn't care less about our freedom.

> There IS NOTHING the US did to deserve the attack on the WTC and
> the Pentagon. There is NO REASON to attack civilians like that.
> The terrorists actions alone show that that he is one twisted fuck
> that does not deserve to live.

On this point we agree. However, you should reread your statement, and pay very close attention to the second sentence. As was said by those wiser than me, we need to make sure we don't cast our net so far that we catch innocents.

Virg

Re:justifying "terrorism"

[Danse]

I am grateful that your views are those of a very small minority, otherwise, we would be living beneath the boot of the barbarians.

Or we simply wouldn't be hated enough for others to wish this kind of retribution on us. You've done absolutely nothing to rebutt my arguments. I'm sad and afraid that there are many like you in this country who will act irrationally and violently in response to what has happened. Who delude themselves into thinking that the acts committed by the US government are somehow justifiable while, yet when anyone else attacks us, they are terrorists and cowards. You obviously don't want to think about it, you simply want blood like so many other Americans. I suspect you'll get it too. And then I suspect we'll see a lot more American blood spilled. I hope you'll be happy with the consequences of our actions as a country.

The New Gulf of Tonkin Resolution

[ClarkEvans]

On Friday, Sept 14, 2001 Congresswoman Barbara Lee of Berkley California was the sole dissenting vote against a resolution which gives G.W. Bush power to "use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks... or harbored such organizations or persons".

This is effectively blank-check authority to wage war anywhere in the world against what ever nations G.W. Bush so chooses without further congressional approval. This operation has started and has been named by Pentagon as "Operation Infinite Justice". This is no joke. If G.W. Bush wants to wage war against Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or even the IRA it may do so without further approval.

Below is the resolution passed, followed by the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Notice the similarity
and differences.

---

Resolution which past 410-1 in the House and 98-0 in Senate on September 14, 2001
H.J. Res. 64

Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and

Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and

Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and

Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and
extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and

Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States:

Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the ``Authorization for Use of Military Force''.

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL. That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any further acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS.

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION. Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS. Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

---
Joint Resolution of Congress
H.J. RES 1145 August 7, 1964
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

That the Congress approves and supports the determination of the President, as Commander in Chief, to take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression.

Section 2. The United States regards as vital to its national interest and to world peace the maintenance of international peace and security in southeast Asia. Consonant with the Constitution of the United States and the Charter of the United Nations and in accordance with its obligations under the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty, the United States is, therefore, prepared, as the President determines, to take all necessary steps, including the use of armed force, to assist any member or protocol state of the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty requesting assistance in defense of its freedom.

Section 3. This resolution shall expire when the President shall determine that the peace and security of the area is reasonably assured by international conditions created by action of the United Nations or otherwise, except that it may be terminated earlier by concurrent resolution of the Congress.

Re:Good idea, but this is not Utopia

[Stephen Samuel]

But what Israel's been doing precisely is targeted counterattacks, and targeted as well as anyone could ever reasonably expect. They find a guy they know is trouble in an office, in a car, or wherever, and they kill him. .....

No. Israel's response is often targeted at people around the terrorist -- even at the population as a whole. They'll shoot kids with rocks, and bulldoze the houses of the families of people who did terrorist attacks -- even though the family didn't know what their relative was planning. They've destroyed entire communities, in some cases.

I have no problems with Israel going after the organizers of terrorist attacks, but when they go after the community, they leave behind people who are angry and desperate. They're essentially using random Palestinins as scapegoats -- to make Israelis feel comforted that something is being done, in response. It's that kind of action that creates latent terrorists.