Handspring Delays Treo, Plans To Drop Organizer Line

backlonthethird writes: "http://www.palminfocenter.com has the scoop on Handspring's triple announcements yesterday. CEO Donna Dubinsky says they're dropping "Organizers," (i.e. visors?), and most of their new Treos are going to Europe because of a parts shortage. At least their losses this past quarter aren't as bad as people were expecting--they claim profitability by this Summer. What the heck is going on over there?"

Comments

Orphan first post

[hirschma]

guess its time to pack up all those springboard carts :(

Makes sense.

[Doktor Memory]

The market for PDAs in the states is collapsing, and Handspring's wireless devices are depending on a functioning GSM network, which is still semi-mythical in the states.

All I know is that if they don't offer a trade-in program for my VisorPhone, someone's gonna get hurt.

Re:Makes sense.

[word munger]

Based on early reviews of the Treo, it's probably better to wait a year or so to upgrade and they have implemented voice control and have improved some of the interface problems. Plus, by then the U.S. digital network should be a bit more comprehensive.

Re:Makes sense.

[xyzzy]

In a way, it does -- but what is the deal with GSM, anyway?

Yes, all of Europe uses it -- but invariably, whenever Motorola et al introduce some snazzy new phone, it's GSM-only first. What, they don't care about any American early adopters??? Going with GSM with the Treo means throwing away the three biggest cellular providers in the US.

Re:Makes sense.

[athakur999]

The US is a relatively small market for mobile technology, that's why. Around 20% of the world's mobile phone users are in the US. That means the other 80% are elsewhere in the world and more than likely using GSM.

Re:Makes sense.

[Midnight Thunder]

And add to that north of the Border the Microcell's ( aka Fido ) GSM network will be joined by Roger AT&T's GSM network. Also, if you want to be able to travel with your phone around the world you are better off buying a GSM phone as you are free to roam most of the globe. Try doing that with the phone of any other US provider and the answers tends to be 'you need to rent a phone when you get to your destination' - yeah right, and this means that I have to let everyone know the number I going to have for one week!?

Re:Makes sense.

[norm_z]

Why buy VisorPhone? Get a Parafone .

Re:Makes sense.

[realdpk]

That's interesting, because my Handspring relies on CDMA I believe, through Sprint PCS. Or are you talking about just one of their springboard products?

Re:Makes sense.

[shadowj]

I own a Visorphone, too (and I'm sure you get the same fishy stares from people around you when you start talking to your organizer). Handspring has stated, more than once, that they intend to offer some sort of discount for Visorphone users. It's not clear what that'll be, but my best guess is a subsidized price for the Treo, as if you had purchased it with new service. Wait and see.

And GSM service is anything but mythical in the US. Voicestream and Cingular currently offer it, with Voicestream covering most of the country. And AT&T will be converting their entire network from TDMA to GSM/GPRS by the end of this year... they already provide GSM service in several cities.

Re:Makes sense.

[sadr]

Most of the major cellular providers in the US are going to be GSM witin 2 years.

AT&T has started their rollout, and Cingular has announced it, IIRC.

Re:Makes sense.

[Anonymous Coward]

ok. i'd like to make some not unlike those of other Anonymous Cowards:

1. CDMA is superior technology. GSM is based on TDMA, and they're both pretty scary from the point of view of anyone concerned about frying their brain. You won't find anyone in the mobile technology arena who will argue that GSM is superior -- it's just been around longer and a standard was settled upon long before the technology had matured.

2. 3G is W-CDMA, and it's closer than you might think.

3. Europe's opportunity to surpass the US as a mobile market has long since gone by. And now their carriers are up to their necks in debt while US carriers plot and pick their moves.

4. I worked in the European wireless industry for a year, and I can say that there's no shortage of qualified technical talent, but their attitude of constantly trying to beat the Americans to the next big thing just seems to burn them over and over and over again. So you end up with a lot of cool software and a real lack of direction on the business side. Enter Sprint PCS or Verizon to show how it's done.

5. No, you can't roam around the world like Rick Steves and never lose your connection just cuz you're using a GSM phone. North American GSM carriers use the 1900MHz frequency, while the rest of the world uses 900MHz or 1800MHz. So unless you've got a Tri-band world GSM phone (like my Motorola Timeport P7389), you're not going anywhere with that phone, mister. And Europe is full of carrier-subsidized phones with fixed SIM chips that can't be used on other networks as well, so there's your double whammy.

Ever anonymous,
Anonymous Coward

Re:Makes sense.

[Colol]

You left out one other very large carrier of note: Pacbell.

Love them, hate them, whatever... But their Cali network is GSM. And it works surprisingly well, despite all the horror stories my Californian friends have about their telco.

Re:Makes sense.

[thogard]

G3 is about getting mythical over priced data to the phones. DoCoMo (by NTT in Japan) is about geting pr0n to the phones in color. DoCoMo has dumped G3 and are rolling out something close that works. The largest DoCoMo phone I've seen is still smaller than the smallest GSM phone. The features that are packed into the phones are much better as well.

Some how I expect that most of the worlds phones in 20 years will be based on DoCoMo.

Re:Makes sense.

[praktike]

it's probably better to wait a year or so to upgrade and they have implemented voice control and have improved some of the interface problems

i personally am waiting for the pda/cell package w/ a 10-gig hard-drive and voice/email integration. where's that one?

Re:Makes sense.

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah but in japan the cell tower density is MUCH MUCH higher so phones can be both smaller and more featureful...

Re:Makes sense.

[TheMCP]

The market for PDAs in the states is collapsing, and Handspring's wireless devices are depending on a functioning GSM network, which is still semi-mythical in the states.

GSM may be one of the least popular systems in the US, but it's the system everywhere else. Why do you think every other country has more advanced phones than we do? Because phone manufacturers can make one model and sell it all over the world, but then they have to re-engineer it five different ways to make five different models to bring it to market in the US.

So, mostly they don't bother - they sell all their interesting models everywhere else, and sell a few models in the US that are most easily re-engineered to work here.

My friends at Nokia tell me the phones we have here are 2 or 3 years behind Europe.

What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

PocketPC is eating their lunch.

Microsoft has got its Marketing feelers into every nook and cranny they can see.

Ever seen those Dockers commercials? iPaq in the pocket.

PocketPC vs Palm on buses and airport terminals...

PocketPCs on primetime television.

Palm and PalmOS suppliers are hurting. Microsoft is killing them. And the funny thing is that they are being killed by a better product. None of that "unfair bundling" crap to complain about.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Mr_Matt]

And the funny thing is that they are being killed by a better product.

...or the market for PDAs has shifted from tech-savvy geeks (all of whom I know own a Palm-alike PDA) to marketdroids who know only Windows software. Think about it - with tech employees getting laid off left and right, who's got the cash to buy a new PDA? You got it: PHB does, and he Doesn't Understand Anything But Windows.

Personally, when I bought my PDA, I tried the iPaq and a Visor, and the Visor was the better product, hands-down. And it cost $200 less. So I bought it. Don't delude yourself into thinking that because a market shifted, PocketPCs are necessarily better products. The market's different, that's all. What you should be worried about is why the market's different, and what role (if any) Microsoft plays in that market. :)

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Zico]

Sorry, but Palm is most definitely not the choice of the tech savvy user. Its very limited hardware and OS are both way behind the times and Microsoft is increasing the gap more by the day. Here's a very accurate description of why Palm is in such trouble: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-201-8480246-0.htm l

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Ionizor]

How about battery performance? My Visor Platinum can run for weeks off of a pair of (rechargable Alkaline) AAA batteries. Pocket PCs suck the juice like there's no tomorrow (actually that's ironically close to the truth). I'd take a 40 MHz PalmOS device over a 200 MHz PocketPC any day, just for that reason.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

In case you haven't noticed, Microsoft has practically lost the war against PalmOS-based devices. Between Palm, Handspring, and Sony, the PalmOS holds nearly 80% of the handheld market. As for Handspring's decision, its a change in business strategy. Wireless is the future, and they're the only PDA manufacturer to see that. They weren't losing market share to PocketPC, in fact, Handspring had 2-3 times the market share of all PocketPC devices combined. Do some market research before trolling??

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes... Batteries... And those are?..

- PocketPC user

Re:What the heck is going on:

[MisterBlister]

Try updating your stats to match current reality. What you said would be true, if it were still 1999.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Mr_Matt]

Sorry, but Palm is most definitely not the choice of the tech savvy user.

Oops, looks like we disagree about the definition of "tech-savvy." For you it might mean "PDA == miniature laptop" while for me it means "PDA == simple, elegant, crash-proof." And when I say crash-proof, I mean it. My Visor went with me on a mountaintop research trip last winter, and after I beefed it on my skis, and landed literally, right on top of my Visor, it wasn't even scratched. Chalk it up to a good Rhino-Skin case and a durable, space-filled design on the Visor.

So for a gadget-weenie, you'd be right, and Palm-alikes are feeble. But for somebody who values utility over chrome, I still go with the Palm.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Ionizor]

Y'know that warning that comes up about once a day about low power? Yeah. All handhelds have batteries, genius.

The major difference being that I can change the batteries in my Visor, they only cost $1 apiece, and they're rechargable up to 200 uses.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[fmaxwell]

And the funny thing is that they are being killed by a better product.

No, they're being killed by a different product. The Palm OS machines are intended to be inexpensive, practical organizers -- not undersized laptops or $500 status symbols. Palms trade things like MP3 playback and glitzy graphics for battery life, light weight, small size, and low price.

Palm OS devices are incredibly practical to someone who needs a powerful organizer for their work -- which is why medical professionals love them. For some kid that's looking for a fancier version of a Gameboy to impress the other kids, the PocketPC machines may be appealing:

Dudez, im righting this email on my iPaq and listening to a Rancid MP3! iPaqs rule! Palms are seriously gay!

The grown-ups will continue to buy Palm as long as they are available.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[6]

Not entirely true.

The Palm and Palm alikes are much more complete
out of the box. For example if you don't happen
to have Outlook on your windows machine then you
have no way to sync up your pocket pc calendar.

The Palm comes whole and complete.

Synchronization is also far more fleshed out on
the palm. The equivalent application on the PC
is a bit on the twitchy side and loads and runs
by default on windows with no real way to exit it. Kinna a pain on a laptop.

Still despite it's shortcomings I switched to
pocketPC from a palm device two years ago and
would never go back.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Glock27]

Palm and PalmOS suppliers are hurting. Microsoft is killing them. And the funny thing is that they are being killed by a better product.

I find it amusing that you think that the OS with 80% marketshare is getting 'killed'. Right.

None of that "unfair bundling" crap to complain about.

No, I'll just complain about Microsoft using existing monopolies to create a new one in the PDA OS sector (which is illegal). Microsoft is leveraging Windows by virtue of developer lockin, and is leveraging Office by virtue of proprietary file formats ("view Word and Excel e-mail attachments right on your iPaq!"). I hope Microsoft gets slammed for it.

299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!

Re:What the heck is going on:

[s0l0m0n]

From: http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=28 33

Later this year, the company will release the Treo 270 with a color screen and a built-in keyboard. Handspring currently plans to charge $600 for it.

$600 bucks (plus a service agreement) for something that can be replaced by a phone of paper?

I think that might be what is killing the palm market.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[yog]

In my case, as a software engineer and consultant, a Palm (actually, a Handera) is the way to go. When an expandable Treo comes out I'll probably get that. That CNET article is just a commentary, not a true comparison, and the writers ignored a number of facts in order to make their case sound stronger.

For example: Palm is easier and simpler; UI requires fewer taps to get stuff done; batteries last a lot longer; Palms are getting smaller and lighter while PPCs are still bricks.

How can you compare a $99 Palm M100 with a $500 iPaq? Obviously, they're completely different. It's like comparing a Honda Civic with a Mercedes SUV.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

3 years of notes and contacts don't work nearly as well on paper. Paper also lacks a search function.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[toopc]

Palms trade things like MP3 playback and glitzy graphics

If by lacking glitzy graphics you mean the Palm screen is a poor greyscale LCD that is only visible in bright light or total darkness you're right on the money. Those extra large backlit 65k color screens make my Palm Vx grey with envy.

Honestly I think the reason many of us own Palms is because we can't justify the price of a PocketPC. If I could, I'd have an iPaq tomorrow or better yet one of these (whenver they become available):

PocketPC In A Phone

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

Palm and PalmOS suppliers are hurting. Microsoft is killing them. And the funny thing is that they are being killed by a better product. None of that "unfair bundling" crap to complain about.

Better product? Have you even used a PocketPC? Have you even seen the pricetag on a PocketPC?

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it amusing that you think that the OS with 80% marketshare is getting 'killed'.

They used to have 100%. I'd say having a fifth of your marketshare taken by competitors is "getting killed".

Re:What the heck is going on:

[s0l0m0n]

Truth.

But I've got a 'filing cabinet' and 'memory'..

Check you dictionary.

Plus, I can hire a secretary for 10$ an hour, which would give me numerous benefits which no computer can (such as making a cup of coffee, or holding a cohesive conversation with my clients when I don't feel cohesive myself).

yeah yeah, offtopic trollbait, whatever.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Glock27]

They used to have 100%. I'd say having a fifth of your marketshare taken by competitors is "getting killed".

I'd call it "moderate competition". I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. There's nothing to say that WinCE will keep making inroads over time... If I were Palm, I'd be more concerned about the burgeoning crop of Linux PDAs. :-)

I think Handspring is on the right track with it's "Communicator" strategy, since wireless Internet is key to the PDA marketplace.

Let me know if Palm hits 20% marketshare...then we'll talk about 'getting killed'. I don't expect it to happen, myself.

299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!

Re:What the heck is going on:

[ArnoldYabenson]

The Stinger OS? Aside from (the obscure) Sendo, only Mitsubishi and Samsung have committed to the platform, and if more don't come on board I question how firm that commitment is.

Stinger's advanced features are likely to be useless to those who aren't running Windows as their primary desktop platform. Nokia, Motorola and Ericsson are behind Epoc, the competing wireless platform in development, which should be as powerful, and not desktop-platform-dependent.

Of course, at high data rates, all of these run a high risk of causing a dangerous silicon explosion in your pocket.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Zico]

Stinger's advanced features are likely to be useless to those who aren't running Windows as their primary desktop platform.

Well damn, guess they're going to have to fight over that niche of, um, what, 95% of the market? What dopes they are, huh?

Re:What the heck is going on:

[kin_korn_karn]

Dudez, im righting this email on my iPaq and listening to a Rancid MP3! iPaqs rule! Palms are seriously gay!

Rancid? You just lost all credibility here :)

Re:What the heck is going on:

[fmaxwell]

Honestly I think the reason many of us own Palms is because we can't justify the price of a PocketPC.

Maybe for some, but not for me. I really like the light weight of the Palm combined with its incredible battery life. It does what I need. I find it easy to navigate and, with the newer models, easy to read -- though I'll admit that the original Palm Pilot had a less-than-desirable display. The PocketPCs just don't work as well for me.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Chazbot 2002]

Maybe that's true as far as installed base, but not new sales. Compaq sold more iPaqs than all Palm OS PDA's combined in 2001.

If you're on a Palm OS, admit you're a glorified Franklin Planner (actually my preference) but price accordingly.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[pauljlucas]

PocketPC is eating their lunch.

Maybe it's because I live smack in the middle of Sillicon Valley (geek central) or something, but when I'm out and about and see other people using PDAs, I see far more Palm-based devices than WinCE devices. Hence, I don't see how PocketPCs are eating Palm's lunch.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

PocketPC sales are growing.
PalmOS sales are shrinking.

You're looking at the number of devices currently in use, which is the wrong thing to watch. Look at what's being bought currently, and you'll find that PocketPCs are being bought at a much higher rate than Palms.

Sure, Palm has more devices in use than PocketPC, but it also had a very large headstart to get those things out into the market.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Mark Pitman]

PalmOS had nothing to do with your Visor surviving your "crash". It was the hardware. Microsoft doesn't build the hardware for PocketPCs, so what exactly is your point with respect to PalmOS vs. PocketPC OS?

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Mr_Matt]

PalmOS had nothing to do with your Visor surviving your "crash". It was the hardware.

No shit, Sherlock. Read the post. I said:

"Chalk it up to a good Rhino-Skin case and a durable, space-filled design on the Visor."

Microsoft doesn't build the hardware for PocketPCs, so what exactly is your point with respect to PalmOS vs. PocketPC OS?

The gist of the post was this: Palm-alikes are a simpler hardware design than the "miniature-laptop" design that most PocketPCs seem to be going for. Nowhere did I mention the respective OSs of each device. But since you missed it the first time, here's my point: Palm-alikes are simpler and cheaper, and in my experience, more reliable (in a HARDWARE fashion) than PocketPCs. Clear now?

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Mr_Matt]

Woops, the smiley face didn't come out after my "No shit, Sherlock" statement. There's one there, but he's hiding. Really makes it sound meaner without it...yowch. Came out on the "Preview" so it must have been something else I did...hehehehehe

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Glock27]

Maybe that's true as far as installed base, but not new sales. Compaq sold more iPaqs than all Palm OS PDA's combined in 2001.

I seriously doubt that. Please provide a reference.

299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!

Re:What the heck is going on:

[BarryJacobsen]

First off, I'm a kid and I have a palm. Secondly, Hard Ball is the only game I ever need.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Tyrant Chang]

I believe overall sales are higher for ipaq than palms because ipaqs are more expensive. The link is here

I heard from someone who works at a online retailer and he told me that wince sales are outpacing palm by a pretty wide margin now. (again sales, not unit, don't know about that)

Re:What the heck is going on:

[biglig2]

Well, isn't that a little unfair? The Vx is 3 years older than a Pocket PC 2002.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Glock27]

I believe overall sales are higher for ipaq than palms because ipaqs are more expensive. The link is here [internetnews.com]

You said "more iPaqs", which most would interpret as more units, not dollar volume. Also, you're not counting Sony or the other Palm licensees. I'm sure Clie took a lot of market share this year.

I do think that the Palm community better get on to StrongArm and xScale soon. I interpret Handspring's "we're not going to make organizers, just communicators" comment to mean that wireless Internet will be key. If so, perhaps the Linux PDAs will do well, like the new Sharp Zaurus. I'm eyeing that one myself...Linux, Qtopia, and Java. Should be a tasty combination.

PalmOS is currently primitive by comparison. It'll be interesting to see what route Palm takes to improve it. Will it be warmed-over BeOS?

I'd also like to see QNX succeed as a small device OS. It's very lean and mean. Maybe QNX will go into the hardware business... ;-)

299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!

Re:What the heck is going on:

[IronChef]

I think Handspring is on the right track with it's "Communicator" strategy, since wireless Internet is key to the PDA marketplace.

It may be, but this cowboy at least isn't paying another freaking monthly fee for connectivity. My PDA will have to remain offline until I take it home and sync it.

Now, $10 flat rate wireless connectivity -- sign me up, I'll cave in for that. But it'll be a fat bill like cable modem or DSL. I already have one of those every month, no thanks.

Re:What the heck is going on:

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the poster was talking about /.er's -- you may find the percentages here somewhat different.

asshole.

Big deal

[GMFTatsujin]

I drop my organizer all the time, and I don't have to fold up a company to pay for the replacement...
Tatsujin

Re:Big deal

[Cruciform]

OK, what retard modded that offtopic. That was funny.

Re:Big deal

[el_doop]

Amen. That's some bad modding and a funny comment.

PocketPC

[VAXGeek]

The reason Handspring/Palm are having so much trouble is, in fact, the PocketPC. Now, you can pooh-pooh them all you want, say WinCE is bloated, the machines are overpowered, they chew through battery like nobody's business, whatever. The FACT is, when you sit down a person in front of a machine running PalmOS and a machine running WinCE, the WinCE machine is IMMEDIATELY more impressive. People see PocketWord and PocketExcel. Don't dismiss the value of name brand recognition. Even the fact that the machines run Windows make them less intimidating to people. If you grab a hold of a WinCE machine, immediately you are right at home with a Start button, etc. On PalmOS, you have to familiarize yourself with the device, strange interface, Graffiti. I'm not saying PalmOS doesn't have its spot, I'm just saying a niche won't support enough users for a company to stay afloat. A long used comparision is Windows : Linux :: WinCE : PalmOS. Sure, anyone that REALLY knows what they're doing will have a Palm, but that ratio must be like 1/100, which is NOT enough to keep a whole company alive. Unless Palm/Handspring pack more features into their offerings, they are going to go under, and in a big way. Never underestimate the value of shiny things.

Re:PocketPC

[TheViffer]

the machines are overpowered

Gawd .. the day I say this about any computer is the day I realize that I am to old. :-P

Re:PocketPC

[Dark Paladin]

About the only thing that's helping Palm right now is that they still have the majority of the market share - mainly because:

• They were first.
  
• They're still cheaper.
  

I noticed the new Clei (Clie? whatever) lines have built in Word/Excel ability - something that shows that Sony at least gets the basic idea.

I have a Palm 505, and I've been lusting after the Clie (of course, I've been lusting after a Mac too, but I'm not sure if I want to spend $2000 to give up Linux. Separate topic.). About the one thing that would help is if Palm would force everybody to standardize on compact flash, since no add-ons for any Palm OS device work with any other. (Grrr...)

Re:PocketPC

[VAXGeek]

True, true. Now, tell me about the torn anuses!

Re:PocketPC

[David Frankenstein]

> I'm just saying a niche won't support enough users for a company to stay afloat.

You do realize that companies in other niche markets include everything from Apple to Rolex. Just because it's a niche doesn't mean that it can be profitable.

Also, the most cited reason that the Palm PDA's did so well in the near past was that they were *simpler* than other PDA's. Shiny's great for the demo, but gets in the way and adds to the cost of the real product.

Re:PocketPC

[mattdm]

Palm wasn't the first such device on the market, though. They were just the first to have a decent price and a good interface *designed to work as a PDA*, not attempting to be a desktop replacement in your pocket. They still win on both counts.

Re:PocketPC

[1nt3lx]

The clie is cool, but I could do everything it does 6 months before its release on my HP Jornada.

There, now that this comment isn't offtopic, I can respond to the part of your comment I cared about. You SHOULD get a Mac! Immediately.
MacOX X is way better than linux. Good GUI, solid unix underpinning, etc.

Even if you don't like MacOS X (which I find highly unlikely) you could still run Linux on it.

Re:PocketPC

[VAXGeek]

Also, you can EMULATE a PalmOS machine on MacOS X faster than on any other platform, due to the Altivec unit on the processor. So, don't bother buying a Clie, just skip right to a Mac running OS X.

Re:PocketPC

[larien]

Don't diss Graffiti. I've had a go with it and found it much easier to work with than the handwriting software on Pocket PC 2000 (both the builtin stuff and the version on the additional CD I've got).

Re:PocketPC

[Dark Paladin]

Oh, yes, that will work just fine - I won't carrying around my palm, just a Powermac G4 - it emulates well ;).

Re:PocketPC

[kisrael]

Unfortunately, once you start using the "start button" etc, you'll find out that the Desktop metaphor has scaled very, very poorly.

All my friends use Palm (save this one guy). The trouble is they all use old PalmVs and the like, and see no need to upgrade; Palm has hurt itself by making a perfectly adequate product from its first few generations. (Like, once it added the backlight...)

I was playing with that one guy's iPaq, and even he couldn't explain how to use part of WinCE; specifically opening a document (I forget if we wanted to open it in pocket IE or whatever, but all the usual manipulations of the "filesystem" didn't do the trick, plus the "magic synching" sucked much ass), and then manipulating one of the menus of his GPS map program so that all the directional arrows were visible (not to mention dialog boxes that were scaled to be 3 times the width of the screen, so you had to scroll just to be able to hit OK)

I don't know about the future; it will be a race of Palm getting itself out of some technological corners its painted itself into, and hardware becoming powerful yet battery efficient enough for WinCE to make sense, with Microsoft making improvements to their basic organizer functionality.

Re:PocketPC

[Chris Mattern]

Overpowered ain't possible when you can plug into an outlet. When you need to be stretching out a battery that weighs about an ounce for a couple of days, and preferably more, it's a different story.

Chris Mattern

Re:PocketPC

[Dark Paladin]

You're right - my bad. I forgot about the Newton and other such devices.

Re:PocketPC

[fiori]

Isn't it a sad commentary on the userbase that the PalmOS is more difficult to understand than WinCE?

Give me a lobotomy now, and I'll fit right in.

Re:PocketPC

[brogdon]

I'd be interested to know why you think anyone who "knows what they're doing" would prefer a Palm? I've been earning my living developing for handhelds, and I much prefer my Toshiba PocketPC to any PalmOS product, despite the $400 price difference.

Re:PocketPC

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, anyone that REALLY knows what they're doing will have a Palm

You've got to be kidding. Someone who really knows what they're doing, as long as they've got the cash (and here's a secret -- we usually do), could care less about the crippled Palm when compared to PocketPCs. Hell, even if I don't like Windows CE, I can put another OS on it. PalmOS? Talk about outdated and lame.

Re:PocketPC

[trcooper]

Bingo.

Palm sat back while Pocket PC came in and introduced high(er) res displays, more storage, more generic expandability (through CF), and the ability to do things like play MP3's.

The average person goes into Compusa looking at these devices, and the Pocket PC machines just stand out better. They've got more memory, are more colorful, and faster processors. Whether or not all this is neccessary is moot, it's a percieved deficit on the palm side.

I've been shocked that palm hasn't reacted to this. Sony has, and the new Clie machines are very cool, but palm has been stagnating for quite a while.

Re:PocketPC

[Dark Paladin]

I'm wondering if the purchase of BeOS will help with this.

Since Palm is making their move to the Strongarm processor, and BeOS was touted for having a great interface, cool filesystem, etc (and not having used BeOS before their demise, I can't comment on how good or bad it is), but it should be possible to imagine a Palm system which actually does some cool multimedia, and with the Metadata part of the filesystem, can make things like document editing/mp3 playing, etc a snap for developers and users.

Remember - Palm did well first because it takes one button to get to whatever you want. If they can use the BeOS pieces to their advantage with the more powerful processors (without sacrificing battery power), the game might still be an interesting one to watch.

I love competition. ;).

Re:PocketPC

[niftyeric]

"Don't diss Graffiti."

Heh. One time I sat down and started writing a letter to one of my friends.. in Graffiti! That is a sign you use it too much! ;P

Re:PocketPC

[jchristopher]

The reason Handspring/Palm are having so much trouble is, in fact, the PocketPC.

Actually, I think it has more to do with the fact that everyone who needed a PDA over the last few years still owns a perfectly functional Palm III.

Re:PocketPC

[JordoCrouse]

Actually, its the other way around. People who truely use their handhelds want the Palm OS. The people who are going to *buy* the handheld wants Palm OS. Thats because, in the long run, people in the know want a reliable, supported, and stupidly easy OS. And most importantly, they want an operating system designed for a handheld.

A handheld is *NOT* a cute little version of the desktop. Period. You don't use the same applications, and its not designed to use the same applications. And this is why non PocketPC operating systems outpace Microsoft 2 to 1. And by 2005, Microsoft is expected to be 4th in the embedded space behind Palm, Linux and VxWorks.

On PalmOS, you have to familiarize yourself with the device.

Wow, and thats all of what, 10 minutes?

Never underestimate the value of shiny things.

The value of shiny things depreciates much faster then the value of things that atually work.

Re:PocketPC

[VAXGeek]

Well, Linux users seem to prefer PalmOS by engineering standards. For instance, they love the long battery life and the simple elegance of PalmOS, not to mention the fact that it's all done on a ~33 mHz chip. They fail to appreciate the value of PocketPC's advances, because they see it as just another bloated Windows platform. Sure, from an engineering standpoint, PalmOS is more efficient and well designed and WinCE just has a lot of hardware behind it to make it look better, but Linux users hate that.

Re:PocketPC

[iabervon]

I haven't actually seen a PocketPC yet, so this is just based on MS's subway ad.

There was a Palm and a PocketPC, both showing weather reports. The Palm's report fit on the screen, and included the current day. The PocketPC needed a scrollbar (which is always a pain), and seemed to start without the current day on the screen. The weather reports were entirely different. Guess which one I'd trust.

Evidentally, the PocketPC is a device for people whose requirement in a handheld is a diagonal gradient. I suspect, on the other hand, that most people who actually want to use handhelds for anything already have Palms. The remaining market may only be for people who want a pretty device that doesn't work.

Re:PocketPC

[Anonymous Coward]

Never underestimate the value of shiny things.

Especially Shiny Monkeys.

Re:PocketPC

[juuri]

He couldn't tell you how to open a document?

Offense intended. Does your friend have a brain? Do you?

When you start almost all PocketPC apps that interact with files they drop you into a tree view or an open dialog. Perhaps you meant open it with a different program then the one registered to open it from the file explorer?

Syncing works well. I have file synced from my IPAQ to my desktop and to yahoo. Contacts/Appointments are also synced to my desktop, yahoo and to my ericcson t39 phone. What part "sucked ass"?

Also how is crappy GPS software the fault of the OS?

The PocketPC OS still has a ways to go to impress me, but as it stands it is a hell of a lot better than the Palm crap people are grasping onto. So far only two pocket OS's have been good, NewtonOS and Psion's.

Re:PocketPC

[Sick Boy]

I've done that. I was working on a database schema and started writing the names of the tables on the whiteboard. It took a (non-palm owning) latecommer to ask what was on the board. Until then the other people in the meeting hadn't realized that it was graffiti either. Heh. Geeks.

Re:PocketPC

[kisrael]

Yes, we both have brains. He was an experienced designer, I was an experienced software guy. The UI was just bad. I forget the exact task we were trying to do, but yes, it probably had to do with the registration of a file he had just synched over with his desktop. We attacked from both the open dialog of the app, and from the file explorer, and got nuthin.

The synching was crap. It may have improved, but he had mentioned that it tended to crash very, very badly, and that he had heard tht was a known problem. Also, from a higher level standpoint, I'd debate the wisdom of "you don't have to press a button to synch"...it sounds great from a marketing standpoint, but in practice, I'd rather have control of when data is transferred, not just hope the daemon has woken up and done what it needed to.

The crappy GPS app seemed to be using basic, lowlevel OS functionality for the dynamic toolbars, they looked more or less like the same thing under IE. I've seen a few apps that didn't handle the screen dimensions very well at all; enough so that I start to suspect the OS (a few years ago, you could argue Palm just did an end run around this issue by never having different resolutions, though recent PalmOS devices are getting there, I don't know the details of how they handle it.)

For every basic task, the Palm has a great UI, both for novices and experienced users. And for the non-basic tasks, it holds its own, with a large library of 3rd party software. The approach of scaling up from simplicity has worked a lot better than scaling down from the desktop.

Re:PocketPC

[jumex]

You see there is one thing you have wrong with your Windows : Linux :: WinCE : PalmOS comparison.

Linux doesn't hold +70% of the desktop market, were PalmOS does hold +70% of the handheld market.

There is another thing you forgot to mention, the price point. Your standard PocketPC 2002 device costs anywhere from $500-$700, where I can go buy an m100 for $79, and a top of the line PalmOS organizer is around $400. Which would you want?

You speak of a brand people recognize. Palm isn't the new guy on the block when it comes to handhelds, they own the field. If I want something I can recognize and feel safe buying, a Palm device seems the right choice for me.

Another thing about the PocketPC revolution. It's been going on since WinCE 1.0, when Palm was still young MS was entering this field and they still don't own it. People make predictions that PocketPC will take over in 5 years, well that is what they were saying 5 years ago.

But PocketPC owns Enterprise, right? If you are a company that wants to distribute handhelds to all your employees for work purposes and you have tens of thousands of employees, which would you choose the $200 Palm or the $600 PocketPC?

You say Palm needs to pack more features, but that has always been the MS strategy, never the Palm one. Palm says "keep it simple, stupid," and people go for that. Not too many middle aged conservative organizer consumers (which is the target market) care if they can play movies on what is essentially their electronic Franklin Planner.

So finally, I would say this. PocketPC is sweet. It is obviously the better machine, but unless MS changes their vision, or their prices, Palm (the OS, not necessarily the hardware) will continue to lead the pack.

Cheers,
trv

Re:PocketPC

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

All my friends use Palm (save this one guy). The trouble is they all use old PalmVs and the like, and see no need to upgrade; Palm has hurt itself by making a perfectly adequate product from its first few generations.

I'll just add something here.

I spose the depends on how you persive perfectly adequate.
My Vx is perfectly adequate, compared to the newer Palms or PocketPCs. But if Palm did something usefull like dump the graffiti area, use a higher res screen, made it even thinner than the Vx, bumped up the RAM, and fixed up some annoying thigs in PalmOS, I would no longer see the Vx as adequate. But have they? No. What am I missing today?

• Poor colour screen.
• Vibrator option that has poor setting (it's either on or off from what I can tell, I don't need a vibrator when my Palm is sitting on the table doing it wake-up call).
• No spare stylus.
• Heavier.
• LED power button.
• A new note app.
• Expantion card, which from what I head has been poorly implemented into the OS.
• Oh yeah, and a basic thing like a pop-up clock, which I solved with better 3rd party SW anyway (PocketWatch+).

Not much really. Like you said, alot of people find there current Palm perfectly adequate. But I don't think Palm hurt them selves by making a product that is perfectly adequate. They hurt them selves by not improving there product. If you build it, they will come.

Re:PocketPC

[foghorn19]

Graffitti sucks bigtime. The Transcriber on PocketPC 2002 is VERY good at handwriting recognition once you train it (which can be saved as a small file, so if you do a hard reset, all you need to do is reload the file and off you go). The screens on the PPC devices are MUCH better than the crappy Palm/Handspring screens. ClearType is a treat for the eyes. I have an ipaq with 100 MB of MP3s loaded on a compactflash card, several programs (including windows media player) installed on the card, with about 20 ebooks and there's still a good amount of storage space to spare on the 128 MB card. Almost the whole 32 MB of RAM is available for running programs and it's snappy enough. Anyone who cares to customize the hardware buttons can easily have FIVE of their favorite (most used!) apps accessible with ONE button press from the powered-off state. Internet Explorer actually works, hotmail is one tap away. Pocket Word kicks ass. There's tons of hardcore geek-oriented apps available (vxutils from www.cam.com for example, you can run all kinds of network queries (traceroute anyone?)).

Granted, hordes of pocketpc users make you cringe like the typical AOLuser, but that doesn't mean the hardware isn't sexy.Try it sometime, spend an afternoon playing with the regedit on the WinCE devices, stick a compactflash ethernet adapter into the slot and you're connected (at 700 kbps via my home cable modem!). I wish I had this thing when I was a kid; it would be heavenly to surf the web under the blankets after the mandatory lights-off orders from mum & dad.

Anyways, I am digressing. Don't underestimate the hardware. Rather than badmouthing something just because it's microsoft, go ahead and check it out for yourself. Install linux on it if you liketo live on the edge and dare to risk the flashROM on the ipaq.

'nuff said

Re:PocketPC

[faichai]

...but it should be possible to imagine a Palm system which actually does some cool multimedia, and with the Metadata part of the filesystem, can make things like document editing/mp3 playing, etc a snap for developers and users.

Remember that devices have limited storage capability. The highend market may be OK, in that you'll have room for a microdrive etc. but in the low to middle end of the scale (were talking mobile phones here) the market is a high-volume low-margin one. This is where all the money is, and every penny counts. I doubt Palm or MS will be able to crack it, especially since Symbian has it all sewn up.

I think Palm in particular has missed the boat, even with Be's technology, it is just to far behind.

Re:PocketPC

[Jenova_Six]

The UI was just bad. I forget the exact task we were trying to do, but yes, it probably had to do with the registration of a file he had just synched over with his desktop. We attacked from both the open dialog of the app, and from the file explorer, and got nuthin.

What type of file were you trying to open? What application was it associated with? Sounds non-standard or third party, in which case it certainly is not the fault of the OS.

The synching was crap. It may have improved, but he had mentioned that it tended to crash very, very badly, and that he had heard tht was a known problem. Also, from a higher level standpoint, I'd debate the wisdom of "you don't have to press a button to synch"...it sounds great from a marketing standpoint, but in practice, I'd rather have control of when data is transferred, not just hope the daemon has woken up and done what it needed to.

There is an option in Activesync to sync automatically (continuous), sync only on connection (one time), or to sync manually (only when you click the button). You have all the control you could ask for.

The crappy GPS app seemed to be using basic, lowlevel OS functionality for the dynamic toolbars, they looked more or less like the same thing under IE. I've seen a few apps that didn't handle the screen dimensions very well at all; enough so that I start to suspect the OS

Even if the GPS app uses OS functions like toolbars, it's still a crappy app. The toolbars, and other UI elements in all of the built in applications look fine and work perfectly. Some people try to run Handheld PC (WinCE 3.0) apps on Pocket PC, which sometime works, but the screens are designed for the half VGA HPC screen.

I won't argue which is better, Palm or Pocket PC, because I think they're both useful, and both have their strengths and weaknesses. But you're spreading FUD about Pocket PC, as most of your comments just aren't true.

Jenova_Six

Re:PocketPC

[Robotech_Master]

I honestly can't think of anything that a PocketPC does that I'd want enough to spend two to three times the cost of a PalmOS for. I mean, so it plays MP3s, including audiobooks. So? Big deal. I listen to audiobooks on the Rio 600 that I got for saving up Pepsi bottlecaps. So it reads Microsoft Reader e-books. So? Big deal. Anything that I would want to read in MSR form is more than likely also available in some other form that doesn't have the hassle of DRM.

Playing movies? Oh, puh-leeze. If I want to play movies on a pocket device, and have that kind of money to toss around, then I'll buy a portable DVD player.

Work with Word or Excel files? Can't see why I'd want to. Even if I did, there are perfectly serviceable Word file editors for the Palm.

Color? Don't need it, and if I did, it would still be cheaper on a Palm machine.

Don't get me wrong--the PowerPC boxes look like nifty toys, and if someone gave me one, sure, I'd be happy to play around with it. But for my money...no way.

Re:PocketPC

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking idiot moderators...

Keep your politics to yourself, the above post is NOT flamebait. I prefer the Palm, but all the predictions are that Windows CE devices will be outselling them soon so the poster has a very valid point.

Re:PocketPC

[Anonymous Coward]

gee, I am sure you like programming in machine language, too.

Re:PocketPC

[kisrael]

I concede several of your points. Also, I may be talking about the PocketPC of a year ago, they may have improved in some ways. (Though it is interesting that the difference between early Palms and late Palms is MUCH less significant than early and late CE)

I wish I remembered the details of the file issue; it was pretty damning, and it wasn't a particularly weird file format. It may have been trying to view the source of an HTML document, or something along those lines, but it really turned me off the OS, and I was seriously considering getting it, because the hardware was so nice.

Same with the synch button; are you certain the iPaq had a button on its cradle? I remember looking for reasons to like it, but its owner had little good to say about it, and I thought I would've noticed a synch button, since that's when I formulated my anti-auto-synch attitude.

The GPS app may indeed have been a port of a CE 3.0 app; kind of funny, because the rest of the app was pretty sick, and only the parts of the app that tied into the UI of the OS sucked.

Sorry if it was excessively FUD seeming. I still think Palm is such a better bet for Joe User for actual utility...

Re:PocketPC

[frostyboy]

I think what you just said leads to an interesting illustration. In order to actually do all these things (play videos, read MSR books, play MP3s, open word and excel files) You can either:

Get a palmOS handheld, plus a rio600, plus a portable DVD player, plus additional software to edit word files (suuuure it works just as nice as actually having word), and you'd still have to hunt around for e-books in non MSR format, since of course anything you'd want to read is in another format (suuure it is).

or...

Get a windows CE / PocketPC handheld

And as for your "Color? Don't need it, and if I did, it would still be cheaper on a Palm machine" argument -- on amazon.com a Palm color m505 is $399. A cassiopeia em500 is $279. A shiny new HP Jornada 548 is $299. So where's the price advantage???

Re:PocketPC

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

The first few times I manually transferred files to my PocketPC, I was unable to open them in many apps. Turns out that by default, the PocketPC expects all your data files (docs, mp3s, etc) to be in the "My Documents" folder, and many shareware apps don't let you check other directories. Once I figured that out, it's been a cakewalk ever since.

Re:PocketPC

[Robotech_Master]

Well, if I did get all of those, they'd be a lot less sluggish, work better, and crash less than a WinCE box.

As for the e-book issue, none of the e-books I've ever used have even been available in MS-Reader, as far as I've noticed at the time.

• Alexlit
  
• Mind's Eye
  
• Peanut Press/Palm Digital Literature
  
• Fictionwise
  
• MemoWare
  
• Baen Webscriptions/Free Library

I'm not even sure where I'd get an MS-Reader book even if I wanted one.

As for the price issue, I suppose they've gotten better. All the WinCE boxes were in the $500-800 range last time I looked.

Slightly incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

The market for *PalmOS-based* PDAs in the states is collapsing.

It's just an evolution...

[trix_e]

Yeah, they'll stop making Visors one day... color me stunned. Sony stopped making 10" B&W TV sets at some point too...

The Treo is a nifty little device which is an evolution of the Visor. Integrating a phone makes sense, integrating wireless makes sense. If Handspring decides not to make a device that *only* does PDA type functionality, that's probably a good business decision. Sure they're still be a market for a limited device like that, it just won't be Handspring making it. But as the technology changes, and component prices come down, it'll be generally expected that a device have more and more features. Handspring is just acknowledging that fact.

Re:It's just an evolution...

[IronChef]

The Visor isn't akin to a 10" B&W TV. It's an entry-level device, not necessarily an obsolete device.

If Handspring makes nothing but Treo-like products they will lose me as a customer because I don't want another cell phone and I don't want a PDA that comes with some kind of monthly service charge for data.

PocketPC or Handspring to rule them all

[CTalkobt]

Sorry... too much Tolkien...

From an informal mental survey of people I know 5 have Handspring / Palm-Pilots vs 1 w/ a PocketPC ( forget the brand ).

I'd say the Handsprings / Palm etc are suffering from a price drop ( I think b/c of oversupply ) and they need to be a bit more aggressive in updating the models. It'd be super-nice to get away from 160x160 pixel screen and have the microphone wired in like it should be so it can be used. Oh, and throw a decent ( semi-decent ) sound chip on there too...

Re:PocketPC or Handspring to rule them all

[DarthWiggle]

*cough* I never thought I'd lower myself to this level, but, here goes:

Sony's right out there in the lead with the Clie line. 320x320 screen, sound, IR-remote software, headphone jack... Great product...

Damn, now I feel dirty.

(Something tells me this is going to be redundant.. Goodbye karma, I hardly knew ye.)

Business Decision

[jdc180]

>>"We are a company that is transitioning out of the organizer business and into the communicator business. At some point we will have transitioned out of the organizer business."

So let me get this straight, you're going to leave a market where you have a niche, ie: the Visor, and enter a market that's already saturated and run by Nokia, Ericson, and Motorola.

I think Qualcomm tried something similar, they should've stuck to making Eudora ;)

Re:Business Decision

[mj01nir]

...and enter a market that's already saturated and run by Nokia, Ericson, and Motorola. I think Qualcomm tried something similar, they should've stuck to making Eudora ;)

Hey, take that back! I love my pdqSmartBrick

Organizers *are* dead...

[brogdon]

Donna has referred to organizers as a "dead end" several times before now. I can't blame her, since she's right. With the hardware getting better and better all the time, and Microsoft's PocketPC basically owning the high-end of the market, she can see where the road will lead. When the hardware finally does catch up and the price falls, no one will pay $100 for a Palm when they can get a PocketPC for the same price that runs their cozy Windows OS and does almost as much as their laptop.

So what does Handspring do? They go sideways. Start merging their devices into cell phones and other WiFi solutions, and hopefully expand the market in a way Microsoft's lumbering embrace-and-extend strategy won't be able to engulf for another year or two, buying them some more time to figure out where to go next.

In a bizarre way it reminds me of The Nothing relentlessly following Atreyu across the countryside in The Never-Ending Story. :)

Re:Organizers *are* dead...

[elmegil]

So what does Handspring do? They go sideways.

From a product with real usability and an IMAGE of just geek appeal, to a product with poor usability and by definition ONLY geek appeal. I mean they call it a communicator for crying out loud!

If I wanted my cellphone, pager, and organizer all in one device, I suppose that'd be fine. But tell me: how the hell are you going to discuss your appointment calendar when the screen is pasted to your cheek?

Re:Organizers *are* dead...

[KurdtX]

Or, for anyone who bit a while ago at that Apple handheld-like device, they could adopt Mac OS X. They already run a modified (stripped) version of it on the registers at brick & mortar Apple stores, and if Handspring/Palm were to combine what they have with some of the Newton technologies... I'm sure you'd have some very happy geeks. (Especially since the iPod already has a 5 Gig hard drive, the right form factor, and Firewire - that'd be what, the iSpring?)

Re:Organizers *are* dead...

[Anonymous Coward]

how the hell are you going to discuss your appointment calendar when the screen is pasted to your cheek?

Since cellphone headsets are certainly envogue now, this should be relatively obvious. Detach the earpiece and mic from the unit. In a fancy bluetooth setup there wouldn't be a need for a wire between the headset and the "Visor Box".

for the "first generation" design they'll leave it coupled, but that shouldn't last long.... if they are smart.

Re:Organizers *are* dead...

[vsync64]

If I wanted my cellphone, pager, and organizer all in one device, I suppose that'd be fine. But tell me: how the hell are you going to discuss your appointment calendar when the screen is pasted to your cheek?

Headset.

Re:Organizers *are* dead...

[elmegil]

Headset

That's convenient. Sorry, but everyone with a headset I've seen looks like some street person wandering around talking to themself (we're talking the common earbud/mic bulge near your neck type of headset). I thought the idea with a cellphone was that you were wireless, and now I'm going to have some stupid looking wire running to my pocket? No thanks.

Well, duh...

[Liquid(TJ)]

Besides what people have been saying about PocketPC (alas, palmos is losing), Look at the visors and treos. A quick read of specs may not tell it, but the treo is a visor replacement. The "graffitti" model esp. is the upgrade path they want you on. The treo's look pretty sweet too in my opinion; unless I end up poor I'll be all over getting one sometime this year.

PDAs are still more of a Geek Badge of Honor

[OS24Ever]

Until PDAs really get more main stream in large corporate world accounts they won't be successful. I call on fortune 500 companys and state government accounts. The only people that have Palm or WinCE devices are other Techs that are 'evaluating' one, or other sales types that sell them. Other than that, I never have anyone I can beam my business card too and I continue to have to use paper ones.

They need to get a product on there that is invaluable, or can help replace the much more expensive laptop. Until then, they're going to be an expensive calandar whos nearest competitor is the Franklin Planner, or the DayTimer.

Re:PDAs are still more of a Geek Badge of Honor

[tfurrows]

As you said, they need to more widely accepted here in the states. They are a very useful tool, very affordable, and yet we ignore them (for the most part) or label them as a "geek tool". American's have a serious problem accepting new technology, and until we get over it we're always going to be one step behind. I personally think the problem is greed more than anything else... Gasoline powered cars and Franklin panners; welcome to America, land of non-innovation!

Re:PDAs are still more of a Geek Badge of Honor

[Refrag]

Bullshit. I work for a large Bank. Anyone with an administrative assistant assigned to them has a PDA that the administrative assistant is supposed to keep synced for them. This is NOT in a tech department. Out of the other workers, I'd say about 10-25% have them.

I have one that I bought many years ago, but never use.

Re:PDAs are still more of a Geek Badge of Honor

[good-n-nappy]

My experience is the same. The people I personally know who use a (Palm) PDA work as investment bankers, real estate agents, consultants, management, and similar.

I am one of the few geeks among my family and friends and most of them had Palms well before I did. And mine is sitting on my desk collecting dust.

The people for whom Palms seem to be attractive are those who make extensive use of calendars and address books - ie. they're organized. I don't think that necessarily correlates to geeks.

Re:PDAs are still more of a Geek Badge of Honor

[Wigglywonka]

PDAs, particularly Palm based PDAs have been ill-served by their excellent default custom software. That stuff is good enough to prevent the average user from seeking new and better things for their palms. The market will expand when developers create custom PDA based solutions that businesses really need. Once that's happening, the number of people who have them, or see other people having and using them will increase. The benefits of greater penetration are obvious/
If you think I'm nuts, just remember that most people used a computer for the first time at work, not at their Geek friend's house. I suspect that Palm market penetration will grow similarly.

Re:PDAs are still more of a Geek Badge of Honor

[THotze]

I'd have to disagree with this one.

I'm a high school student now in my second year, and got a Palm at the beginning of my freshman year. Originally, I had a m100, now I've got a m105. Many of my friend's parents (mostly lawers, and a few businessmen) all have Palms. I personally use mine with the Palm Keyboard to take notes, etc. in school. To date, I've never gotten more than a light-hearted "geek" comment from anyone (and when I do, it's usually friends bugging me). The important part of functionality isn't what you can use, it's what you do use. In this respect, a Palm is as useful as a iPaq or other WinCE machine for most users. I take typed notes,I have a spell check and email program, and I have loaded games, like the complete original Sim City. If the iPaq were the same price, as my m105, would I have bought an iPaq? In all honesty, probably. The color screen, ability to play MP3's and connect to broadband (with an adapter), as well as more expandability than my older m105 are all attractive features, in my mind, set off only by the minor annoyances of a Microsoft logo here and there (in all honesty, having used a Windows CE 1.0 machine for 3 years, WinCE's as stable as Palm), as well as lower (but still long enough for a day's use) battery life, are just too attractive to pass up. But would I use the extra features? Not often. My computing experience, in terms of the output that I sync to print out, and in terms of the things I can do in on my device, would be almost exactly the same. The prices aren't the same, and as long as people think of a PDA as an accessory and not a full PC, price will remain a (if not the) key selling point to the masses. Tim

Sharp?

[jimbis]

does this bode well for the new linux based Sharp PDA? Personally I can't wait to get hold of one.

Re:Sharp?

[qwerpoiu]

Be carefull not to cut yourself!

Simi-Mythical?

[DAldredge]

So I guess this is a Visor GSM module +5 sitting on my desk in Dallas, Texas?

Re:Simi-Mythical?

[SuperKendall]

USA GSM is Simi-Mythical, as in: Strategically planned by an infinite number of monkeys.

Has anyone used the TREO?

[pgrote]

I was at Comdex this year where the Treo was unveiled. It is boxy and not very comfortable to use. The idea is a good one, but it looked like an American car from the 70s next to a sleek Toyota of today.

Europe is a great market to move this to as folks appreciate the gadgets more than Americans do. Then again, maybe they like the design. ;-)

I have no idea...

[SerpentMage]

I looked at the Treo device and thought really cool.

But some poster mentioned that the PDA market is collapsing, or the PocketPC is eating everyone's lunch.

Well I do not know. Here is what I do know. Companies are not allowing things like Blackberries anymore (PDA inclusive). I have owned about 5 PDA's in different form factors and the result is that I use none of them.

So I kept thinking why this is the case? The answer is that I have several notebooks and I find the problem with PDA's is that there is simply not enough space. I get quite a bit of email and documents. A PDA just sucks. However, notebooks have become small, work everywhere, etc, etc.

So I think the black knight is the notebook market.

Re:I have no idea...

[brogdon]

Two words - Gigabyte Microdrive.

I have one right now in My Toshiba e570. It has eighty mp3s, a dozen programs, and an episode or two of my favorite sitcom with tons of room to spare. It sucks power, but if you're using it for Email and document storage you're not going to be hitting it for an hour straight like I do, so it probably won't be an issue. You ought to take a look at the new PPC 2002 devices with CF slots built into them. If storage is your issue, they might change your mind.

Re:I have no idea...

[SerpentMage]

I have looked into that, but like you said battery sucks. And then I scratch my head about the usefulness.

Here is my point, having owned a PPC I liked it, but the wife and I only ended up playing games with it. I kept trying to make more use, but it just never materialized. Instead what did happen is that I kept going to a notebook.

Interestingly enough Sony is getting out of the "tablet PC" business because they say it is a niche. Specifically they explained that people are so used to computers and their form factor that regardless if it is good or bad they keep to that method of input and output. And I agree since I cannot imagine myself using anything else. I have tried other techniques so it cannot be said I am not opened minded to try.

But watch out for the tribbles...

[jvmatthe]

Dubinsky said: We are a company that is transitioning out of the organizer business and into the communicator business.[emphasis added]

Now if they'd just work on getting the transporter functional, phaser operational, and making one-piece miniskirt outfits come back in style, I can start living the life of Kirk. ;^)

Re:But watch out for the tribbles...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I can start living the life of Kirk"

Yeah, but you'l still need to work on the "getting laid by green chicks" part yourself. Technology can't handle everything.

Palm OS is better suited to phones anyway.

[Angerson]

Sure, it's a gamble for Handspring, but it might just pay off. I've used both PocketPC and Palm OS devices extensively and found that if you want a lightweight, mini-pc, the PocketPC is far better suited to this. However, if you want something really lightweight (as in both form and function), the Palm OS is a nice addition to any phone.

In fact, I've got a Samsung Palm OS phone right now and it's a truly wonderful hybrid device - perfect for my needs. I can't wait to see what these new Treo phones bring to the table, especially the color model (should Handspring hang around long enough to deliver it).

Re:Palm OS is better suited to phones anyway.

[brulman]

I think your comment about Handspring hanging round long enough to deliver gets to the crux of the biscuit. They're positioning themseleves for direct competition with Nokia, which isn't exactly an easier proposition than competing with Palm and the various flavors of PocketPC. They're in for a struggle anyway they go...

Re:Palm OS is better suited to phones anyway.

[Vulture_]

The Pocket PC runs Microsoft Windows. 'Nuff said.
</bigotry>

transitioned out of plain English

[Jonathunder]

Handspring CEO Donna Dubinsky said "We are a company that is transitioning out of the organizer business and into the communicator business. At some point we will have transitioned out of the organizer business."

Please don't do that to the English language, Ms. Dubinsky. It has suffered enough.

Re:transitioned out of plain English

[sirwired]

Um, no.

intr.v. transitioned, transitioning, transitions

1.To make a transition.

American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition, 2000

English/American English is not like French. Even if this was a new word we do not need the permission of some ridiculous "academy" (which everyone ignores anyway) to create new words. The meaning of "transitioning" is unambiguous and most importantly: It gets Ms. Dubinsky's point across just fine.

SirWired

Kiss Sales and Partners Goodbye

[gizmo_mathboy]

In just a few simple words Dubinsky probably lost 20% of short term sales and pissed off every partner that makes Sprinboard modules.

Heck, I'm pissed off and I love my Visor Pro with Visor Phone. That the greatest combo of PDA/phone but it does what I need it to do. With her comments I'm thinking I bought a piece of crap instead of the useful device it really is.

I guess she's just like every other CEO these days. Stupid.

Re:Kiss Sales and Partners Goodbye

[james_sorenson]

Your VisorPhone is not going to suddenly stop working. Your Palm apps will work on the Treo. The Treo uses the same network (and makes use of a faster one as well). The Treo is just an upgraded VisorPhone that can't be taken apart. You would have a much better reason to be upset if you had bought a Psion (which is discontinued altogether).

Re:Kiss Sales and Partners Goodbye

[gizmo_mathboy]

True, it was mostly hyperbole on my part. It just annoys me when I hear the someting I own and love is going to be discontinued. Visors are a good bit of design. I like my Visor Phone. I know that just because Handspring may not be making them in the near future doesn't mean I won't get any utility out of them.

I'm just saying that her remarks scared off more customer than it probably brought in as well as causing grave concern for the companies that make Springboard modules. But then again, that's somehow construed as flamebait (maybe just very tiny bit, this is /. after all ;-)

conferance call

[Alien54]

You can listen to their conferance call with investors here:

http://biz.yahoo.com/cc/5/12625.html

Alot of this is spin, but investors can be a nasty crowd.

Wither the Springboard?

[just dave]

I find it interesting that handspring is dropping
"organizers" to make "communicators", which, given
the convergence of organizers and cell phones, is
mostly a marketting move.

What I do find disturbing is that the treo lacks
a springboard slot, which gave handspring a reason
to exist. One can only assume that in order to
stop making "organizers" handspring will integrate
springboard modules into the treo. Otherwise, how
are they going to compete with the "cliephone",
which has to exist on somebody's drawing board.

-Dave

Re:Wither the Springboard?

[gtaluvit]

Because everyone I know with a Visor, including myself, doesn't use the modules. I'm not paying $100 or whatever it costs for a golf module for the Visor. The modules are very expensive and usually there are better alternatives. I bought a cable for $30 to connect my Visor to my cell phone. Much better than $199 for a cell phone module. I think I've used that only twice though. Handspring is making the right move cause they offered no innovation other than springboards which aren't selling. Better to get out now and try something different than to die a horrible PDA death.

Oh well

[NiftyNews]

When in doubt, just blame the Euro. :)

Feel Free to mod me down.

[Daunting*Alligheri]

But this just sucks. Period. Here I have a nice sexy little visor, and you damn well know that when they stop making them (and probably cease to make the springboard modules (as they aren't on the treos) that tech support will go down the shitter. Goddamn silly.

BAH.

I never liked the hardware too much...

[Adrian Voinea]

In order to create a successful wireless platform you're going to need good hardware.
Handspring doesn't have it. They've got a 33Mhz 16-bit Motorola Dragonball processor. It can (slowly) serve the most basic mobile data needs (email, instant messaging), play a couple of neat little games, and be a pretty effective organizer, but that's about it.
Palm OS devices are stuck at 8 or 16MB's of total capacity, which sure as hell means you won't be storing any large files (movies, MP3s, etc) on it.
They need modern hardware, like an ARM-derived platform, to overcome these inherent limitations. (I know, Palm says it's working on it, but that was supposed to materialize how long ago now??)
Also, another hardware problem is the resolution... the Prism looks awesome in the photos, but remember that the resolution is ONLY 160x160 -- the same as the Palm IIIc. For those that have seen the IIIc, you will remember that it has a very grainy resolution.
Although the Prism does have a higher color depth, and uses TFT color, unless the screen has a tighter dpi, you will probably find that it is only marginally better than the IIIc. Also, remember that it is thicker and heavier than a regular Visor.
I'm very interested in seeing a real one up close, in both indoor light AND outdoor light. As far as color goes outside, I have only seen 2 color LCDs that really work well outside -- the Sony hybrid LCD on their digital camera, and the Compaq IPAQ. The rest wash out completely.

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a Prism, and your criticism of the hardware is misplaced. The 160x160 display has great color support, and is great for the market it was designed for. I can see and read the display with ease indoors or outdoors. You are correct that the Prism is a little bulkier; it feels more like a Gameboy when compared to the smaller + lighter Palm Vx it replaced.

The real problem is that nothing supports the full (16k) color support the Prism offers, and few apps support color at all, aside from a few games. It's a cool device, with more than enough processing power to perform admirably on many tasks, but the software just isn't there as nobody else makes a PalmOS device with real color support.

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[fmaxwell]

They've got a 33Mhz 16-bit Motorola Dragonball processor. It can (slowly) serve the most basic mobile data needs (email, instant messaging), play a couple of neat little games, and be a pretty effective organizer, but that's about it.

Professionals don't spent their day doing instant messaging, sending e-mails from their organizers, and playing games. They need devices that can serve as calculators, automate their schedules, store phone numbers, and provide a convenient way to store written information. They don't want to change batteries every two days or be tied to a charger so that they can have an x-hundred-megahertz CPU in a handheld. They need to have the company phone directory in their handheld -- not MP3s from Rancid, the Backstreet Boys, or Everclear.

That's why the Palm continues to have a strong following.

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[Refrag]

Ever heard of Blackberries? Of course professionals need to have instant messaging on their PDAs.

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[Anonymous Coward]

(otherwise known as trelane but I'm too damn lazy to register)
I own a prism, I feel the sony 320x320 IS better, BUT, the 320x320 looks like SHIT with the backlight off. out in the daylight there is no difference. Indoors the prism's battery outlasts the clie and the clie just doesn't look as good without the backlight. As for being grainy, no it ain't perfect (like the bright shiny ipaq see the pcworld mag article on the last page of the jan-15 mag) but it's functional for more than a mirror.

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[fmaxwell]

Ever heard of Blackberries? Of course professionals need to have instant messaging on their PDAs.

Blackberries are, for the vast majority of users, a time-wasting status symbol rather than a valuable tool. I'm a professional. I don't need a Blackberry. The people I work with are all professionals and I've only seen one of them with a Blackberry -- and he got it because it's a cool toy, not because he needed it to be productive in his job. In fact, if you want to see the least productive use of time in the world, watch some poor schmuck try to compose a message on that Blackberry micro-keyboard that makes most calculator keyboards look expansive.

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[macemoneta]

Uhh... first of all, my HS Prism is 72MB with the Memplug (with 64MB SmartMedia) and PiDirect. Yes, it works just like regular memory. It's great for keepin a couple of dozen full-length Linux manuals handy. Not to mention a dozen full-length novels, in case I get bored somewhere. Throw in a few dozen large databases for reference.

I don't know why people think that there is a lack of color applications; current versions all take advantage of the color display: iSilo, JFile, FireViewer, Mapopolis, HsPhoto Album, Planetarium, and loads of games (I've got 15 loaded right now).

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it is the OS that REALLY sucks. There are some minor flaws in the hardware and mechanical designs that an experience engineers could easily have fixed.

The Palm hardware can support up to 32M of RAM, but the OS only support 16M.

The Palm OS has no concept of a file system, so compact flash (easy to implement in hardware) is not well supported by the os. :( There was some recent support for "files" in storage devices, but they are kludgy.

The display is running off the embedded LCD interface of the Dragonball and it is limited. Higher resolution Palms have separate display controllers just like rest of the world.

To use LCD in outdoors, you really need a transreflective type of LCD backlighting scheme. My Fuji Finpix 4700 camera LCD is not usable in outdoor. :(

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Palm OS has no concept of a file system, so compact flash (easy to implement in hardware) is not well supported by the os. :( There was some recent support for "files" in storage devices, but they are kludgy.

Bullshit. I have several apps that do filesystem management. The Palm itself is a root device, and additional expansion bays are referred to as SD:\ and CF:\ as if they were drives. It reads/writes FAT-formatted cards. It's been like this since PalmOS 3, I'm pretty sure. And I'm not just some guy either - A good buddy of mine is a Palm programmer for SkyHawke.

And if you think CF isn't well-supported by the OS, you've never used a TRGpro or a HandEra. It's supported much better than SD is on the Palm, which is to say that it supports flash cards as well as peripherals, given the proper driver extensions (It supports flash cards natively).

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[Refrag]

I'd never get an e-mail response from my boss if he didn't have a Blackberry.

In the large Bank that I work for, Blackberries are very common in the investments side of the Banc.

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[fmaxwell]

I'd never get an e-mail response from my boss if he didn't have a Blackberry.

Since when is an e-mail response from the boss a productivity enhancing experience? ;-)

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[dvk]

That's a negative. It may differ by industries, but in banking, wireless messaging is quite popular. Us techie types get 2-way RIM pagers (same hardware as Blackberries, differnt OS/functionality), and banking types get BBs.
QUITE useful in many situations.
[ including being able to let my family know i'm alive via e-mail at 9:15am on 9/11, when all cell phones in Downtown manhattan were dead. I was in 1WTC on the 2-d floor when #1 hit, and straight under impact point of 2WTC at the moment of #2. ]
More to the point, being able to communicate from arbitrary location is a great time saver => dramatically increased productivity.
And the keyboard is not all that hard to use once you get a hang of it.

-DVK

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[dvk]

You are incorrect on most of these points:

* Processor: Good point, but ARMs are coming.
* Memory: Not if you get a GOOD PalmOS handheld.
Take a look at HandEra sometime.
It has SD and CF slots. Which means up to
256M+512M=768M max storage capacity
(current capacities of largest SD and CF cards).
* Resolution: HandEra has 320x240 QVGA screen.
Incredible thing (Yes, I own a HandEra).
Sony Clie has 320x320, which is bigger and more
backwards compatible with old 160x160, yet
not as easy to extend into true VGA later on as
QVGA.
A dedicated media chip ought to enable MP3
playback better than anything else, even a
faster processor. I'd kill to have that added
to HandEra.

-Daniel

Re:I never liked the hardware too much...

[Refrag]

It usually isn't. :) But, at least it is a reponse.

what the hell are you talking about?

[autopr0n]

WinCE devices are much better for 'geeks' then palms. large, color screens, lots of expandablity, not to mention a powerfull multithreaded OS to play with and a nice (now free) Dev kit.

The palm may be 'simple and elegant' but I don't want simple and elegant, I want a real computer. with all the features and functionality of a deskop. And I can get that with WinCE.

Re:what the hell are you talking about?

[XGA]

I want a real computer. with all the features and functionality of a deskop.

Then what's the point of having a desktop any more, or even better, just buy a slimline laptop from sony.

Really, If I were to buy a PDA, then I don't want to carry around all of the power(problems) of a desktop with me.

Also, A multithreaded OS isn't really necessary for applications I can actually use in a PDA.

Re:what the hell are you talking about?

[mpa000]

Sheesh. Both have their uses.

I had a Nino 510 and loved it dearly right up till the moment that someone else decided they loved it more and walked off with it. It was fairly large and it didn't fit easily in my vest pocket so I developed the habit of carrying it around the building in it's case. I set it down one time too many and that was that.

After a suitable period of mourning, and after having gotten fed up with relying on my notebook and phones instead, I replaced it with a Visor.

I have to admit that I was originally taken back by the lack of features I'd gotten used to: large writing area, handwriting recognition, voice recognition, color, scheme and perl interpreters, and most importantly spreadsheets, usable spreadsheets.

On the other hand, this visor has a nice hardshell case, long battery life, smaller form factor and has never once failed to connect to the PC when syncing data. The Nino was hit or miss, mainly miss when it came to making the connection.

What I want, and think needs to be the next phase in mobile computing development is a completely modular system that can scale up and down as necessary. Choose your favorite input and output peripherals and mix/match to suit the occasion.

Oh well, four to six years before something reasonable hits the street. 'Till then I can deal with Palm's limitations when I don't feel like lugging a notebook bag around.

Ob-OSplug: Of course, the really cool part is that it'll run linux. (g)

Re:what the hell are you talking about?

[Imabug]

WinCE: to shrink back involuntarily (as from pain) : FLINCH

Remember not so long ago ....

[anpe]

Handspring IPO Bounces Up
by Joanna Glasner

10:00 a.m. Jun. 21, 2000 PDT

A closely watched initial stock offering from Handspring Inc. got a warm reception on Wall Street Wednesday.

From here

The Springboard Slot...

[Agent Green]

...is the only reason I'm a Handspring user. The backup module kicks ass, and with my extra on-call pay this week, I'm seriously considering the OmniRemote module. The VisorPhone looks cool too, but GSM capabilities in the U.S. are virtually non-existant and I'm not impressed by VoiceStream. That slot is what sold me over. I'd have a Palm V otherwise.

Last I knew, WinCE devices don't have that kind of expandability...unless someone is planning to make PCMCIA versions of all those cool devices. :) Granted, they look pretty...but under a very heavy use load, I get a couple weeks out of my Visor Neo's batteries.

There's something about it being "non-Microsoft" that I enjoy...something that I don't feel particularly tied to...free.

Beam me up

[Yiddishkite]

"CEO Donna Dubinsky (says)... We are a company that is transitioning out of the organizer business and into the communicator business" I thought communicators weren't due until the 23rd century ?

delays will kill them

[jchristopher]

NOOOOOO!

Dammit! Well I've been waiting months for the Treo already, a few more weeks won't hurt.

In all seriousness, these delays have the potential to really hurt them. The Nokia Communicator, the Danger Hiptop, and (supposedly) voice-enabled Blackberry's are all breathing down their neck. Who will be first to the party?

Nice troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Riddle me this. Before Microsoft entered the PDA market, what was Palm's marketshare? Close to 100%, I'd bet.

Why are Palm devices sitting, overstocked in warehouses? Because PocketPC has taken just about all new device sales away from Palm.

So... Seeing as how Microsoft has just crushed Palm sales, the CEO of Handspring makes the wise decision to leave the market for greener pastures. Sounds like a pretty smart move to me.

Springboards are overrated

[biggerboy]

Really now. I think this expandability stuff, especially in the lower-end is overrated. People tend to buy new organizers for new capabilities rather than buy an add-on anyway.

Oh, but I'm talking to the Slashdot folks -- the crowd that tends to upgrade their videocard and memory every, say, two weeks?

A base PDA is a commodity anyway. Let Palm own that part of the market with its low margins.

I've been fortunate to preview the Treo, and it kicks butt. Looking forward to when they become available.

Re:Springboards are overrated

[Anonymous Coward]

>Slashdot folks -- the crowd that tends to upgrade their videocard and memory every, say, two weeks?

I would guess it is more like updating the video card every 3 months and the drivers every other week. ;) Once every 6 months go out and buy another 100G hard drive and some cool toys made by Sony.

This is only market-speak.

[Anonymous Coward]

This message stolen from the PalmInfoCenter board.

The way I interpret the comment about stopping Visor's and only selling communicators is not that bad. Another way to say the same thing, by my interpretation is, "Eventually all of our organizers are going to have wireless communication built-in. When that happens, what is now known as the Visor will not be sold anymore, and we will call our organizers communicators instead."

Pressure from the Samsung PDA

[linuxguy]

What did the Treo (vaopourware) offer over the Samsung I300 (I have one and I love it) anyways? I think the HandSpring people realized that they were late to the party and did not have, in Treo, a Samsung I300 killer.

Maybe they are giving themselves more time to re-think their strategy and add some really convincing features that would make consumers want to buy it.

'tis a shame

[bpowell423]

The springboard was a marvelous idea. The biggest selling point in my book being plug-and-play that actually worked. All software is on the card, and the Visor recognizes it instantly. Witness the Sony Clie's memory-stick camera. Note on their web site says that it only works after loading the software on seperately. That's a shame, because with the Springboard, it's 100% automatic. In the end, I think most people were like me and thought they were cool but couldn't fork over the money.

Re:'tis a shame

[Anonymous Coward]

The prices were just starting to come down too

Burned Springboard Developers

[libertynews]

Handspring has just destroyed the Springboard and Visor markets with these statements. I am lead programmer for Shine Micro Shine Micro, maker of the SM2496 DSP module for the Visor, and we have been working hard to bring our product to market. Currently it is in Beta testing, but it now appears that we are going to have to redesign for a different platform, or dump the project entierly.

The quote was that the will be exiting the PDA market "but not today". That doesn't provide any kind of reassurance to any of the Springboard deleopers who have invested a great amount of time and effort into what is now a dead product line.
Yes, all product lines are finite. But you usually don't have the manufacturer announcing this fact prematurely. I don't see any reason for someone to buy a Visor or a Springboard module now that they know that the support will not be there sometime in the near future.

It sounds like Handspring is turning into a fancy cellphone company. I don't think that they will survive this move. The Visor and Springboard are a good product and would have carried them far into the future (just look at Palm).

Brian Lane
Lead Programmer
Shine Micro
Maker of the SM2496 DSP module

Re:Burned Springboard Developers

[Brento]

The Visor and Springboard are a good product and would have carried them far into the future (just look at Palm).

Uhhh, I think that's kind of the point. Have you looked at Palm stock prices lately? They're around $4, down from a 52-week high of $29. Palm didn't make it that far into the future just riding on their hardware, and it's not looking good for them either. At least Handspring has an exit plan.

Re:Burned Springboard Developers

[thogard]

We were considering building some special hand sping modules as well. Now that isn't going to happen.

What Visor did was killed off their vertical market edge. There are many compaines tdeveloping software for specifc industries because you can put things like bar code readers on these low cost handheld devices.

As far as the Trio, what can it do that my Nokia 8310 can't other than run plam software? Its smaller and has a very good radio so it makes a good phone.

libertynews is correct about handspring not surviving the move. They only have $115 mil in the bank if once a few springboard "partners" sue them for wasted R&D costs, they will cease to exist.

Re:Burned Springboard Developers

[Kanasta]

Hmm. So the first moment a manufacturer says they will one day drop an old product in favour of a new one, you stop all development?

It's not like I'm seeing any users suddenly burning all their PDAs just be cause a new product is coming out.

Re:Burned Springboard Developers

[RexRuther]

I dont think this is the case. Handspring just wants out of the PDA business where margins are small and the competition is great.

They will probably still make visors for a while longer and perhaps they will put the springboard slot on the new treo. It is a PDA also.

They need inovative products to move the company forward.

Re:Burned Springboard Developers

[Anne_Nonymous]

And more to the point, they lose money on every unit they sell, and total sales continue to fall.

It's just another cool product with a sucky business model.

Re:Burned Springboard Developers

[libertynews]

You have to. When the manufacturer drops their product line people stop buying it, that means they won't be buying Springboard modules either. You can't afford to develop a new product if there isn't a market for it.

Yes, there are alot of Visors out there, but how comfortable are you going to feel spending more money on your now obsolete device? The Springboard market hasn't been doing as well as expected as it is, but now we will never know if it would have reached a critical mass, will we?

Brian Lane
Lead Programmer
Shine Micro
Maker of the SM2496 DSP module

Re:Burned Springboard Developers

[riwm45]

Did it ever occured to you that perhaps Handspring probably is saving you time & money by announcing it sooner than it was supposed to? I have the thought of seeing the pressure it is going to drive on the PDA organizers price tags once the Handspring TREO, Samsung 1300 & Nokia's communicator/smartphone are at the resellers shelves. Especially being that the TREO is available for only $399.00......A Visor coupled with a developers module cost about that much. If only software & hardware developers could sit down with Handspring to crack down a price structure in proportion to the TREO price, maybe the Visor line could be saved. Ciao

Alter reality

[ergo98]

How absurd. The reality is that Palm systems are for people, usually non-technical, who just want something to keep appointments and to take notes. The GEEK wants features, speed, colour screens, all sorts of applications, etc. I find it ridiculous that you claim that it's power users that want the simplistic Palm PDAs: Whan an inverse of reality.

Re:Alter reality

[Mr_Matt]

The GEEK wants features, speed, colour screens, all sorts of applications, etc.

Say instead the gadget geek wants features, etc. and I'll agree with you. The productive geek who wants to Get Stuff Done with a minimum of hassle, BS, and chrome gets the simplest tool that reliably does the job. For me, and the legions of geeks that I know, that means a Palm. If it's features, speed, color, yadda yadda we're looking for, we buy a Real Computer. PDAs aren't there yet, and I doubt seriously that MS can take us there. I can get a used PII laptop that'll blow a PocketPC away in terms of speed, utility, color, etc. for about half the price of a new PocketPC. Why spend more for less function?

Re:Alter reality

[Anonymous Coward]

Have fun carrying your PII laptop around instead of simply putting it in your pocket. PocketPC's are must-have gadgets by those in the know because they put all that power in such a small space.

Re:Alter reality

[zaffir]

The GEEK wants features, speed, colour screens, all sorts of applications, etc. Last i checked there were more apps for the Palm OS than the version of Wince the PPC uses. What good is speed? My Sony Clie responds instantly to whatever i do - its not like i need a high framerate for entering Graffiti. I don't need an AMD Thunderbird for memos/calculations/etc. Ooh... you can play Quake2 at 3fps on your PPC. Too bad the controls are for shit. All that and its only twice as thick and a whole lot wider than my Clie. And if you wanna talk screen quality, take a look at Sony's line of Palm OS devices.

Re:Alter reality

[zaffir]

Bah, the first sentence is a quote. Forgot to submit as plain text.

Re:Alter reality

[ergo98]

It is astounding the amount of power that we take for granted nowadays (and it disproves the "Who needs faster!" nonsense that appears in every thread about CPU power, etc.): PocketPC PDAs with 206Mhz Strongarm processors with 32MB of RAM have >25x more processing power, and 64x the memory of my old Atari 512ST: At the time I was sure that my ST was faster than anyone ever needed, and was more than adequate computing power.

Re:Alter reality

[Mr_Matt]

PocketPC PDAs with 206Mhz Strongarm processors with 32MB of RAM have >25x more processing power, and 64x the memory of my old Atari 512ST: At the time I was sure that my ST was faster than anyone ever needed, and was more than adequate computing power.


Sure, but they also have those teeny-tiny little screens. I'll give you an example, so you know where I'm coming from: in the spring months, I enjoy chasing severe weather. It kind of goes along with my field of study, and it's an interesting hobby. But it's one of those hobbies that you can bring a variable amount of gear along - some gadget geeks like to pretend they're in the movie "Twister" and go hog-wild getting portable radars, multiple radio connections, portable TV dishes, the whole works. Other, more hardcore, chasers will sometimes head out in the field with nothing more than a camera and the grey stuff between their ears. I take a middle ground - I'd like to start viewing radar data while on the road, using my cell-phone to connect. I don't need blistering speed or power - just the ability to d'l .jpg files at about 9600baud or so. That's fine - it tells me where the weather is relative to where I am (and therefore, where I need to be.) Theoretically, one could use a PocketPC to perform this task, but like I mentioned earlier, I can get an old PC-laptop to do the job for half the price, plus I get better screen resolution. Anything less computationally intense than that is do-able on my Visor. So for me, the PocketPC fills a hole I don't need filled: PC ability in a PDA-sized package. My car doesn't care that the laptop weighs more than the PDA, and I'd rather have the 14" screen. And being a student, that extra $200 makes a big difference.

So you see? I don't need a faster machine - I can solve my problems with the ones I have. The PDA is useful for note-taking, organizing, and the occasional game of DopeWars and Traffic - and I don't need more processing power for that. So it's not like I'm living in an "alter reality" as you suggest - I think I'm just being realistic. And quite frankly, who needs faster? YMMV, of course, but maybe you should consider that my mileage need not be the same as yours.

Re:Alter reality

[ergo98]

Hehe, my Atari ST comment was a totally disassociated rant as I had some realizations regarding the power of current systems, and even PDAs. It originally came about when I was looking at which 64MB video card to buy, at which point I thought "Geez, my massive Atari ST had 1/128th the amount of RAM in my new video card....".

I totally and completely understand your point, and in your case there is zero justification for getting a PDA. PDAs work for people for which the size factor is a considerable factor, but if it isn't a considerable factor then a laptop pretty much always makes a better choice.

American Grammar

[gotw]

Let's correct this, our friend across the atlantic need to learn how to conjugate their verbs. "We are a company that is transitioning...soon we will have transitioned" is "We are a company in transition...soon the transition will be completed".
Sigh

Re:American Grammar

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't that be "our friends across the atlantic need to learn how to conjugate their verbs"?

Re:American Grammar

[david duncan scott]

No, over here we prefer to verb our nouns. "Conjugation" is something prisoners do when their wives visit.

bulls--t

[Dethboy]

I sat down one in front of my brother-in-laws PocketPC and was totally lost! Don't know if this was from my Palm experience or what but it wasn't in my opinion - user-friendly.

I think what is really happening is similar to the PC market. Everyone has a handheld. I have a new Handspring Visor deluxe as well as an old original Palm Professional and frankly there isn't much difference in the two besides memory. The only reason I bought the Handspring was for the VisorPhone :)

Exactly. Get back to me when the do something.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the new Nokia clamshell PDA/phone will start creating appeal for these units, but to me the Palm Pilot is a $400 address book.

Maybe because

[sulli]

nobody's upgrading? My old Palm still works fine.

Re:Maybe because

[bjb]

I agree. I'm still using my Palm III that I bought in early 1998 because I haven't found a good reason to upgrade yet. The only thing that I've recently considered is getting more than the 2MB of memory because Vindigo keeps eating up more and more of it (it's almost at 1MB!!). Unfortunately, my model has the original memory board, so upgrading is limited to a motherboard swap, it seems.

OT: Re:PocketPC

[XGA]

've been lusting after a Mac too, but I'm not sure if I want to spend $2000 to give up Linux.

Of course, you can run linux or a BSD on that $2K Mac. Or you could just spend, what, like $800 on a cheap iMac, and run linux/BSD, and save $1200 in the process.

Re:OT: Re:PocketPC

[Dark Paladin]

I could - but my P-II 450 does just as well, and if I'm going to spend $2000, I'd rather do it pumping up my gaming rig than just replacing my Linux box with...Linux in a Power PC chip.

Buy your OWN damn PDA

[sulli]

IT dept. "recommending" PDAs is a double edged sword. Of course it's nice to have one bought for you .. BUT: if the IT dept. buys it, they own your data! Get laid off, sorry, your whole life for the last three years is shot unless you backed up recently. Plus they are likely to demand features you DON'T need (remote management, for example) at the expense of features you DO (MP3).

PDAs are way cheap now. People should, and do, buy their own.

But if you look in other warehouses...

[SuperKendall]

Don't you see even more PocketPC devices langusihing?

Judging from others around me at my company, I don't see any upswing in PocketPC market share. And I've been spending more time than I like with people outside the tech department!

Re:But if you look in other warehouses...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you see even more PocketPC devices langusihing?

No. There aren't enough PocketPCs to meet the demand, actually. Of course, this is mainly a result of Compaq's iPaq being the only high-selling PocketPC. Now, though, several other makers are coming on the market offering PocketPC 2002 and we should probably see a slackening of the supply/demand ratio.

Judging from others around me at my company, I don't see any upswing in PocketPC market share.

Though I don't doubt your experience, please keep in mind that it is only your experience. The numbers just don't bear out your experience.

(Yes, the news is almost a year old, but other information to be had was only available at PocketPC-oriented websites, so I didn't want to taint the numbers)

Re:But if you look in other warehouses...

[SuperKendall]

I would like to see newer numbers even if the source was suspect, as I'm more interested in details than anything.

As for the study, I wonder if that was sales numbers or actual market share of all existing products (penetration was not a clear term in my mind). Increasing sales percentages could easily come from a factor many have noted - lots of people who own a palm are happy with what they have and are waiting for a good next step to upgrade (that's where I'm at). Total market percentage is more likley, it's interesting how much higher the percentage is in the UK - 30+% vs. 12% for PocketPC in the US. Also, the percentage of other PDA's ( 100 - (55+30) )% is a lot higher in the UK!

One last note is that even in the UK, Palm only lost 3% of market. So Microsoft's 12% gain was mostly at the expense of other platforms.

So, any newer numbers to crunch?

Re:But if you look in other warehouses...

[Anonymous Coward]

I looked around a bit for anything that would be untainted and here's an article from August 2001 that gives some of the data we're all looking for.

Re:But if you look in other warehouses...

[SuperKendall]

Impressive, but this survey does look to report more sales market share than installed base - I wish we could see actual numbers to see if sales have dropped for everyone or what.

Also, the total Palm platform base is still quite a bit greater than PocketPC. If they can find a good path moving forward they still have quite a base to build on!

Re:But if you look in other warehouses...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your original point is true. Palm has the largest installed base and the thing that's keeping them from expanding sales is the slow replacement rate. However, among new sales it is clear that PocketPC has the advantage.

The Visor is more than just a PDA...

[Drakula]

You could add phone and wireless capabilities to a Visor through the expansion slot in the back. Also, you have an mp3 player, digital camera, and a whole mess of other stuff. Palm is the one that is just a PDA.

Re:The Visor is more than just a PDA...

[grahams]

Just because it is expandable doesn't make it much more than a PDA. Sure the VisorPhone springboard was a neat hack, as a former owner of one, I can tell you that it was really lousy to use. It was like holding a 2x4 to your ear to talk on the phone, and you constantly felt like you were pressing your LCD panel (which cost $80 to replace) into your face.

Form Factor

[SuperKendall]

I love the expandibility of a visor, but when I was looking a while ago to get a newer Palm I decided on a Palm V over a Visor - I knew from previous experience that I wouldn't actually use anything I couldn't keep in the pocket of a pair of jeans.

A Palm V with hard case is about the same size as a Visor or Palm III, and fits in the same pocket as a set of keys. I'm waiting for a PDA with the same size and battery life, that I can get a hard case for.

.

Why the early announcement?

[neurojab]

I can't figure out why handspring would announce this. They have, in the eyes of consumers, obsoleted their entire inventory. What are they going to do with their warehouses full of neos, prisms, and pros? I go to fry's and there are still deluxes piled up everywhere. They're not going anywhere after this. Why not announce a price cut, clear the inventory and THEN announce a product's obsolence. This current strategy places them atop piles of unsellable inventory... not to mention the fact that it kills their revenue stream for the immediate future.

Re:Why the early announcement?

[k_187]

Or it could goad people like me into buying one. As of right now, I can still get a Visor Deluxe, for about 120 new. In 3 months I probably won't. And now I know I won't be able to find one if I waited until summer like I was planning. (sigh, if only my refund check would get here)

Re:Why the early announcement?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is interesting that in a few months, you won't be able to get a PDA for under $150. The only PDA's on the market will be high-end and expensive. Strange, since anyone I ask isn't willing to fork over the money for the high-end ones, but would for the cheaper ones

oh, they still make them....

[Anonymous Coward]

http://bpgprod.sel.sony.com/bpcnav/app/99999/8/44/ 17439.99999.product.BPC.html

it's 9", but about right.

PDA's are out - handheld computers are in.

[ngoy]

Their exit of the pda business is due to a natural progression of technology. What we had before pda's were little micro organizers (like from sharp) and other business card size devices that held phone numbers, addresse, etc (I wish they would at least implement one thing I miss from those small things, HAVE THESE DAMN PDA'S DIAL PHONE NUMBERS! All those little tiny ones were able to dial using touch tones way back when). Anyways, before that (and I still have it somewhere) there were those cool Casio Telememo watches which you could put names and phone numbers into.

Err, make a point. I used to have a Palm Pro (I won it at one of our company conventions). It was neat for saving names, addresses, and I could play hours of Hong Kong Mahjong on it. But, it didn't hold enough mail to bother with, couldn't view attachments, and I didn't miss it much when it accidently got ran over when I left it on top of my car (it did make it a half mile to the main intersection though). Most people don't need an "organizer". I remember (most of the time) my appointments, phone numbers I need, etc without one. What I use now (A HP 548 with a Minstrel modem that it sits in like a cradle) is far more functional that my palm was. Granted the palm was a few generations older, but they really haven't changed all that much. I can dump a map from MS Streets into it, look up addresses of yard sales and local auctions. I can surf the web in full color and look up items for price comparison on eBay so I can decide what amount I want to bid on the item. And see a nice color picture. There was software out there to convert my internet connection into voice ala net2phone at one time also. I can add memory using the standard CF slot, or put on a gps, or the little cf camera they have.

Palm may have done them first, but they let themselves go by the wayside when they stayed with their smaller resolution screen and were B/W for so long. People want more functionality and they want color and they want it to work with whatthey already have. People always want more, and most people have outgrown an organizer and moved into a "PocketPC" (TM) ;-)

I am not bashing Palm users in anyway, but just stating that for some people they will be happy with what the palm provides, and for others they will want more. The CE devices provide more now.

If only Harrison Leong would port Hong Kong Mahjong to WinCE.

--Shango

Back to the old days...

[DrNibbler]

My favorite part of this is that Handspring is announcing that it will kill the Visor is favor of a product that it can't keep up the supply on. Reminds me of the early days of Handspring where they had problems meeting demand on the orginal Visors.

Price Price Price

[miyax]

Folks, let's look at things this way:

For Christmas I asked for/received a Visor Pro. I chose the Pro because it had a) a rechargable battery, b) 16mb of space. For the same price, I could've had a) a color screen, b) 8mb of space. (Additionally, I find the Visor much nicer than the Palm.)

Hmm.

Now, let's look at our friends, the PocketPC devices. For $499+ you can get a PDA with a 200mhz processor and 32mb of memory. Wow!
For the same price, I could get a laptop, on which I could install any OS I damn well choose, plus I'll have a HDD, RAM (and more of it), a full-size keyboard, an AMD/Pentium (II) processor, etc. etc. I can do *much more* with a laptop, easier than I could with a PocketPC device, *and* I'd be paying the same price. Plus, a laptop is a lot easier to upgrade than a PDA, and it's *still* a portable device.

Do you see my point? If I wanted to spend that kind of money for functionality, I'd buy a laptop, not a PocketPC PDA. Until the iPaq drops down to about $200, and still offers decient features, I'll proudly use my Visor, thank you.

(That and Visor has Springboard ^-^)

-miyax

Semi-Mythical?

[Shook]

Why do people keep saying stuff like this? I have a GSM Visor Phone, and I love it. I do live in a city of about half a million, but I have coverage everywhere I've gone in the city. I've had good coverage in every city I've gone too, with some bad spots here and there.

Maybe not "Covered everywhere you want it" but I don't get the "semi-mythical" quip.

HandEra still has a good product

[erth64net]

I just bought a HandEra 330, after considering a Visor, one of the new Palm models and some of the WinCE devices. I didn't think the springboard "standard" was very viable, and I didn't like the bulkiness of the add-ons. The newest Palm models are not much of an improvement over my current PDA. The WinCE devices, well, I just winced when they kept crashing on me (nevermind the battery life and interopability issues as well).

The HandEra 330 is hands down the best, you get a CompactFlash slot, and a MMC/SD slot. I can add 64MB of memory to this thing, and still have room to plug in my GPS, 802.11 wireless NIC, cell modem, or landline modem (all based off of the miniature PCMCIA standard that CompactFlash uses) all while using the built-in microphone to record things. Plus I can use equipment that was originally designed to work with the Palm III line of products. I'm going to purchase the Lithium battery pack and charger, which will eliminate the need for the 4 AAAs it currently uses.

Also, the HandEra 330 screen is double the resolution of any greyscale Palm or Visor currently on the market. The HandEra 330 also has a "soft silkscreen", where the graffiti area can actually be minimized to free up screen real-estate.

I'm in PDA heaven...

And no, I dont work for them...

My Visor Platinum is indispensable

[sjonke]

All I can say is that I love my Visor Platinum. I'm the forgetful sort and it has saved me so many times it isn't even funny. Aside from the obvious appointments/alarms/contacts, one really key use for me is securely storing the bazillions of accounts/passwords, serial numbers, etc, that I have to deal with. But when you get down to it what really makes it useful is that it fits in my pocket. As a result I have it on me, as opposed to having it sitting on my desk.

Re:PocketPC - Can we talk about usability

[Locutus]

So much of these threads are just plain dumb. You people are just talking about hardware and the OS and nothing about what the device is used for.

The PalmOS based devices are great PDAs and get you your data faster, easier, and in general, cheaper. Do I care if my PDA has 4,8, or 32 MB of RAM when I can put 10's of thousands of addresses and appointments in 2-4MBs? There are tons of other apps that help me keep my data/life organized too and they are cheap or free.

There's a place for full featured pocketable PC's but they currently don't do too well at playing music(batt life rots), there's alot of WOW factor with the movie playing and picture viewing but is that what the majority of the market for handheld computers needs? It's getting close to the time that an MP3 player is builtin( w/CF slot ) and soon simple wireless ( ala bluetooth ) but video and wordprocessors? Who would be dumb enough to write THAT much on a handheld? Get the text in there and let the desktop pretty it up.

This is another classic marketing story that unless Palm and it's partners get off the ass, they're going to get blown away by MS and the public is going to think they need to spend twice as much as they NEED to. Once again Microsoft gets richer at the expense of usability and the public pays for it. They are great at marketing and that means getting people to THINK they need their products.

I'd love to see someone here talk about what people DO with all these different devices instead of just talking about features.

LoB

Ridiculous.

[Ominous Armed Cow]

Palm has 60% of the marketshare by itself. The second largest competitor, Handspring, owns 25%, which is 5 times more than Ipaq's or Jornadas, respectively, despite the fact that they have been in existance for several years before the Handspring arrived.

The only one getting killed are tech analysts spewing ridiculous obituaries for a platform that has a $200-400 price advantage during a consumer tech downturn.

Re:PocketPC - Can we talk about usability

[VAXGeek]

You're not getting it. The AVERAGE consumer does not THINK about purchases.

Troll, Troll, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess, you have an Ipaq? If I payed $500 for a pda without a decent means of input, I'd try to think the best of it as well.

Re:Troll, Troll, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

a pda without a decent means of input

What in the Sam Hill are you talking about? You're down on the PocketPC because 30% of the screen isn't used up simply to take input all the time?

Re:Troll, Troll, Troll

[Ominous Armed Cow]

A keyboard. A decent means of handwriting recognition. I've used IPaq's handwriting rec. It blows. Try a Zaurus SL5000D for comparison, which offers handwriting rec., pickboards, a virtual keyboard, and a real, live, retractable, built in RIM style two thumb hunt and peck keyboard.

Re:Troll, Troll, Troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPaq has handwriting recognition (which you obviously don't like), a QWERTY virtual keyboard for the touch-hunt&pecker, and can be attached to a portable keyboard.

Cell phones are already PDAs wih mico screens

[Belly of the Beast]

Let's be real. If you look in the guts of a cell phone today you will see more MIPS in that phone than a PDA (PocketPCs incuded) As a person who lives with his Visor always at arms reach, a cost-effective and well designed PDA phone is a solid chioce for me. They also need to have versions with stanards besides GSM.

If I have to make a chioce of PDA or phone I take PDA every time!

GSM

[Shook]

As a VERY satisfied VisorPhone user, I feel like the "there is no GSM in the US" is one of those "Big Lies." It was probably true two years ago. I have never had a problem getting a connection in a city or on an interstate. Check the coverage map. I realize it's got some huge gaps it in, but it's fine for my purposes.

Somewhere in between

[SomeOtherGuy]

I liked the idea of the handspring modules...But they have never really taken off, and are hard to find in the stores. (and really expensive) -- I long for the day I could just simply take the PCMCIA modem or NIC card out of my laptop and use it with my "state of the art circa 1996" HP 200LX .. And in 2002 I am spending $100+ for a 33.6K springboard modem for my Handspring (granted you can find them in the stores -- hint, you may have some luck on the closeout table right next to the returned items that have been marked down .5%)
The palms are even worse -- I dont think the external devices have been compatible with the next gen models since day 1. (I.E. my palm V modem will not work with my palm m505 -- etc.)

If ever I have seen a market that was begging for a little standardization -- the PDA market is it.

In the world of PDAs size is king

[moof1138]

Anyone who has spent some time with a Palm V/M50x can tell you this. Those PocetPC things are big bloated irritating lumps in your pocket. Big screens look flashy and are great for showing off a game, or editing a spreadsheet (though when you get to SS editing, it is time to get a laptop), or something, but a PDA spends a lot of its life in a pocket. I had a Cassiopea, and ditched it quite soon after getting it due to horrid size. No PPC is is small enough. The M505 could even use a little shrinking still. PocketPC devices are not addressing shrinking form factor, but rather are adding bloatware bells and whistles. I would not even consider looking at one if I couldn't leave it in my shirt pocket comfortably.

Re:In the world of PDAs size is king

[rbeattie]

The M505 could even use a little shrinking still. PocketPC devices are not addressing shrinking form factor, but rather are adding bloatware bells and whistles. I would not even consider looking at one if I couldn't leave it in my shirt pocket comfortably.

Wow, full circle - This is why I think that Handspring is smart by betting the farm on the Treo. I'm with you - I want my PDA to be small and extremely portable, just like my mobile phone. From what I've read and seen (and from what Handspring claims) the Treo is the smallest of all the Palm devices so far (smaller than a deck of cards) and it's a phone which means I can kill two birds with one credit card purchase. I think a lot of people will be just like me.

This is definitely the area where the PocketPC is going to have trouble following the PalmOS - to this small of a form factor and functionality, which I would venture is much more important than Color/Memory/MP3, etc. "Stinger" cuts too much out of the OS to be a PDA on a phone, I think. But that doesn't matter - it's considered a different platform anyways. I can't write a PocketPC/Stinger application that will work effortlessly like I can write a PalmOS app right now that will still work on the Treo.

The question in my mind is what's going to happen with PalmOS 5.0? Suddenly, the PalmOS is as power hungry as the PocketPC. Will there be a PalmOS 5.0 based Treo? It's a good question. Does this mean that PDAs will all progress to 32 bits, but "Communicators" will be stuck in 16 bit for the time being? Maybe not since there's Nokia, SonyEricsson, Motorola and the rest of the Symbian group to think about. The Symbian OS is 32 bits and runs on their phones. But when will their "Smartphones" move up to be more like PDAs? (Not counting the Nokia 9210 which is more PDA than mobile phone). And when are we going to see the first Linux based PDA/Phone?

-Russ

Certainly, you have AN example though

[OS24Ever]

A large bank. I was talking about large airplane manufacturing companies, large investment companies, state agencies, web server farm companies, Small and Medium Businesses, etc. So a lot of people with admins have a PDA the admin is responsible for....Do they use them? Do the Admin's keep em synched? Or is it desk art?

Just like computers were before the advent of Windows 3.x. I'm talking large scale acceptance too, like 70% to 80% of the population of a given country (business wise, not consumer wise) Consumer market really didn't take off until the advent of even Windows 95.

Don't get me wrong, I've so far purchased 5 PDAs since they came out and I can't live without mine. Then again, I'm a geek and I work in the tech industry.

Realisticly, until they get some main stream applications on either platform, Palm or PocketPC they are going to be a geek type toy more than a real world app. Pocket Word and Pocket Excel aren't exactly the best tools on the iPaq with a stylus and no real keyboard....

There is a bit of bias on my part for Pocket PC so take the last statement with a grain of salt please. I happen to like the Palm OS and Graffiti. I'm really looking forward to the Treo to combine my Sprint PCS phone and the IBM Workpad c505 (Aka Palm c505) into one piece.

ARM rules. Dragonball-yadda-yadda does not.

[Anonymous Coward]

They have of course seen that Palm-based computers suck and ARM-based rule.

The Palm experience for me is a trip back to late 80's where everything is in slow motion.

There's more to it then that.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

It's not just that they seem more impressive. It's because they are more capable. I'm working on a web/database project that will require some people to go out with a digital camera and take photos, then use a PDA to upload them via wireless.

I really wanted to go with Palms. But they just don't have stuff to make it happen. We're buying iPaqs instead.
It's simple, take the photos, slide the flashcard in to the PC card adapter. And copy the images to RAM (64MBs is enought, 8MBs is not). They can then view and to a few little touch-ups, even re-size them, before using a proper web browser to upload the files via a wireless PC card.

We aren't buying the iPaqs for their 'shiny' features. Were buying them becasue they get the job done better than Palms ever could.
As much as I like my Palm Vx as an orginiser, it's capabilities are somewhat limited.

Re:There's more to it then that.

[jrockway]

But you're not using PDA's for the PDA feature. I use my Palm m125 for my date book, todo list, addresses, assignemnts, project management, etc. I could not in my wildest dreams improve upon the basic interface. You don't need a huge screen! You don't need color! You need small programs that get the job done. Case in point, the date book program. Press the date button, click the nearest time to my event, a dialog comes up and i pick my exact time, then i type the event. The schedule compresses itself so it only shows times where I have events (when the screen fills up). I can also choose a view that gives me a todo list and appointment list. So in the morning i press one button and see what I need to do today.

That is what a PDA is for. Not taking digital pictures and uploading them to the internet.

Re:There's more to it then that.

[hondo77]

In your project you are doing something that clerly goes beyond what can be expected of a simple Personal Digital Assistant. Storing, retouching, and uploading images is hardly the sort of thing that people think about doing when they buy a PDA. Calendars, to do lists, contacts. That's what they're best at and that's why most people buy them. An iPaq may be more capable for your app but that doesn't make it the best choice for the rest of the PDA world.

Re:There's more to it then that.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Lets get realistic here shall we? Yes, viewing photos an uploading them to the net is not really a PDA feature as such. But for a while now, all PDAs--even Palm, just go to palmgear.com and look though the software titles--have been doing more than just PIM/PDA funtions, they are starting to move into the PIM/PDA-mobile computer area.

What does PDA stand for? Personal Digital Assistant, what does PIM stand for? Personal Infomation Manager. So a PDA isn't nessesarly restricted to PIM tasks. It can assist you, just like the iPaq will be assisting the companies' photographers for whom I'm writing this web app for.

There's no reason that you can't keep the PIM side slick and usefull, and have a powerfull computer side to do tasks. Both Palm and PocketPC have proved this already.

Oh, you mean like a keyboard?

[Ominous Armed Cow]

or any other decent means of entering text? I've tried the handwriting recognition on an IPaq, and it blows almost as bad as the original newton. Hell, it's not much better on the Zaurus. There's one thing you could say about Palm's Grafitti: it works.

BTW, the Office support on a palmOS for both Word and Excel via a product like "Documents To Go" or "QuickOffice" is superior to MS's own built-in pocket variants, and on 1/4 the power. How pathetic is that?

[Hint: check out a Zaurus SL5000D or SL5500, with built in, retractable RIM style keyboard running a real desktop OS, Embedix Linux - kernel 2.4.6, as opposed to a stripped down subset of the Window's API. I am running a full blown Opera browser with Javascript support, and a Python 2.0 environment, and (just for shit and giggles), a webserver on my PDA. Others have even gotten Quake II to run on the platform. --Try that with wince.]

You Are Wacked! Mod This Back Down

[filbo]

I think this comment is the personal opinion on one invidual based on personal experience and not on emprical data.

My personal opinion is just as valid. And my opinion, based on my experience, is that people want Palm devices. Talk about brand recognition-people know these things a Palm Pilots. My friend's wife, who didn't know how to plug the cradle into her windows box, wanted a palm. My sister wanted one. My mother wanted one. Everyone I know wants a palm! I don't know anyone that has a PocketPC.

The fact is that the majority of American's commute to work in cars. So palms are used as electronic organizers, ones that sync nicely to a computer organizer. Some use speciality applications, but most use it as an organizer. I don't think that the ability to work on word files is really that big of a pull to most of the market. Maybe to the /. crowd it is, but to someone who can't figure out how to double click on an installer program to install the software, transferring excel documents and working on them on the tiny handheld isn't something they have any interest in.

Let's call it even

[Anonymous Coward]

Palm is being killed by a different, better product.

Re:Let's call it even

[fmaxwell]

Palm is being killed by a different, better product.

Why is it better for a handheld to weigh more, be larger, have a shorter battery life, and cost more? No wonder you post crap like that as Anonymous Coward.

Re:Let's call it even

[Anonymous Coward]

It is better for all the people who decided to buy a PocketPC than a Palm, apparently.

It is better because it does more and does it faster than Palm can.

It is better because it fits the needs of consumers better than the Palm can.

It may not be better for you, but it is better for all the people who helped put PocketPC sales above PalmOS sales last year.

Re:Let's call it even

[fmaxwell]

It is better for all the people who decided to buy a PocketPC than a Palm, apparently.

[sarcasm]
It's nice to know that consumers never make the wrong choice. I'm glad that none of them are ever disappointed by the battery life, weight, reliability, usability, etc. I'm happy that people who received PocketPCs as Christmas presents were universally happy with them.
[/sarcasm]

I guess, by your logic, AOL is the Best ISP In The World because they have the most customers.

It is better because it does more and does it faster than Palm can.

My desktop computer can do more and do it faster than a PocketPC. Does that make it "better" than a PocketPC?

If the Palm does everything that I need it to, why would I care that a PocketPC can do stuff I don't need (like play MP3s and jerky, low-res videos)?

It may not be better for you, but it is better for all the people who helped put PocketPC sales above PalmOS sales last year.

Again, you seem to have the mistaken notion that consumers always make the best choice. Remember, consumers bought thousands and thousands of Pet Rocks, Cabbage Patch Kids, and Beanie Babies.

So, when are you going to sign up for AOL?

Re:Let's call it even

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess, by your logic, AOL is the Best ISP In The World

Yes. For those people who don't know anything about computers and just want to get on the internet-thing, AOL is the best ISP in the world.

My desktop computer can do more and do it faster than a PocketPC. Does that make it "better" than a PocketPC?

Yes, if you intend to use your PocketPC at your desk all day long. No, if you want a small PC-like device that fits in your pants pocket.

you seem to have the mistaken notion that consumers always make the best choice.

You assume that they make stupid choices because their choices don't coincide with yours.

Remember, consumers bought thousands and thousands of Pet Rocks, Cabbage Patch Kids, and Beanie Babies.

Yes, and they liked them. What makes their purchases incorrect?

Re:Let's call it even

[fmaxwell]

Yes. For those people who don't know anything about computers and just want to get on the internet-thing, AOL is the best ISP in the world.

Are you serious? People who don't know anything about computers and the Internet are best served by a bunch of banner ads and a mish-mash of Internet-standard and AOL-proprietary interfaces? Most people buy AOL because they have a herd mentality. It's not easier to use than a normal ISP. It's not a cleaner interface. It's not faster. They just buy it because the ads told them to.

No, if you want a small PC-like device that fits in your pants pocket.

Maybe you wear those MC Hammer pants, but I don't have room for something that's bigger than a Palm handheld in my pockets. And I want one that fits in my shirt pocket, which most PocketPCs do not.

Re:Let's call it even

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to get into a discussion of the merits of AOL. Suffice it to say that AOL is perfect for newbies who just want to double click the AOL icon and be online without a lot of fuss.

The shirt pocket comment is well-taken and is one of the drawbacks to the PocketPC. This issue is becoming less of an issue all the time as PocketPC 2002 devices are getting smaller.

Re:Let's call it even

[mtony]

"If the Palm does everything that I need it to, why would I care that a PocketPC can do stuff I don't need (like play MP3s and jerky, low-res videos)? "


I would have to fully agree with this statement. I started out using Windows CE on a Casiopeia 100. There were pleanty of fun stuff to load on there. Image software, mp3, video, etc. But for some reason, every so often, the address book would crash the handheld. That is unacceptable. I use it for work, the fun stuff is secondary.

I now use a Sony Clie 610C and I get my work done. Do I miss the eye candy apps, sure I do. But there are work arounds. I just learned that I need the apps that I need to get work done to work all the time (address book, calendar, task list). Everything else comes after.

Re:Let's call it even

[greensquare]

Pocket PC never beat palm sales. They are growing, but palm is still the big winner

Re:Let's call it even

[aonaran]

To quote one of my customers who just got hooked up to cable... "how do I get on the internet? with AOL there was an icon I just clicked and it connected me to AOL"
me-"Do you see a big blue E that says internet explorer? ...click on that"

...some people need a LOT of hand holding.

Only Person on Planet to Say This?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are perhaps the only person to call this tiny organizer boxy and uneasy to use.

Are you from Earth?

Re:PocketPC - Can we talk about usability

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I'd love to see someone here talk about what people DO with all these different devices instead of just talking about features.

See my post above.

Could be because they are crap?

[Anonymous Coward]

The basic Visor line (I have not tried the color one) will drain your batteries after a week of *complete non-use*. You leave your visor on a table, off, for a week or so, and the batteries are gone! And notice, the basic Visor line does *not* provide a recharge option; you'll need to buy 3rd party widgets for that. Very useless.

As for the wireless aspect, barely a few cash-rich carriers can afford to pay Qualcomm's fees for the privilege of implementing cdma. Any company with less that $1B devoted to that, is doomed to fail. GSM is much cheaper to implement, and well established overseas; that's why the focus is on the european market, as it should.

The eMate 300 is still my favorite computer.

[Anonymous Coward]

I occasionally use an Apple eMate 300, when the situation determines it. The eMate is a brilliant little computer. It's based on the Apple Newton, which is the best thing John Scully ever did while at Apple. The interface, which beat out Windows 95 as "Best New Interface" in 1995, is elegant and easy to use. My only problem with the original Newton, of which I was an angry owner, was that it couldn't properly translate handwriting. Well, by the time they got to the eMate they had worked out those kinks. The size of the Newton was always an issue as well. That's why Palm won the handheld wars with its mediocre interface and Graffiti handwriting recognition. The eMate is miniature compared to an ordinary laptop, and light. It has a built in handle and beautiful clamshell styling. And since it utilizes the NewtonOS, it's "always on" and requires no boot-up. Also, the battery life is, like, six hours on a single charge. It synchs up with all of my Mac software, does email, AND is capable of web browsing (though in monochrome on a little screen). It's a writers dream computer (which I am). And it only cost me $500 USD. I believe it to be the finest and most practical computer of all time. I wish Apple would build in solar power and make them available for near cost in 3rd world countries. Alas, they have killed the technology instead. If you see one of these, snatch it up. It's well worth its price.

My purchase decision is made!

[Che Leno]

My Handspring Visor has started acting up and I've been debating buying a Prism or Palm M505. With a statement like this, am I going to buy a product that will eventually be unsupported? No way.

Count one customer lost, how many more?

Re:My purchase decision is made!

[biggerboy]

Unsupported? I'm not sure I understand. If Prism is discontinued, does that mean it loses the ability to run Palm OS?

Yeah, and you have to write you own apps and games

[Anonymous Coward]

...cause nobody else is selling them

Using the iPod as a PDA

[DivideByZero]

Apparently somebody already thought of how to do this one. And actually has written an idea demo.

Now all he has to do is figure out how to actually WRITE CODE for an iPod.

Every sales person I know has one

[billstewart]

Perhaps not *every*, but most, and I'm in a dull boring telecomm company. You can get a low-end model for $100; you can spend that much on a high-end DayTimer. Some of the geekier types have the higher-end fancier organizers, with cameras or music players or whatever, but everybody's got one.

One reason is because the Palm software does an excellent job of syncing with the MSOutlook Calendar, and if you or your organization uses Outlook as your calendar tool, you get the convenience of a pocketsized calendar while still syncing up with the scheduling requests you get by email. Without good sync software, it would probably not have caught on as fast.

And the software on PalmOS, while limited in functionality, programmer-hostile, and oriented towards a small lamer screen (unlike the Psion I used before my Palm), is designed to be extremely friendly for many common tasks. The most annoying limit is document size - early limited-memory hardware meant they designed lots of applications to limit themselves to 4KB notes, which is even more annoying than the 32KB-64KB that most small-model Intel programs used to have.

My wife uses a small palmtop made of dead trees, which has a palm-style cover and pen-holder....

Shouldn't be a mystery

[Max Webster]

Microsoft and analysts have been saying for some time now that they would keep chipping away at the high end, making gains as resolution / memory / processor / battery life improved enough to please the average user.

Palm had a weak response on the colour issue with the IIIc. Even in monochrome mode the battery life sucks, plus there are no compelling apps that make use of colour (besides Bubblet maybe). It's extremely irritating that even the built-in apps can either use 256 colours (just to get yellow highlighting and blue titles) or monochrome, but any other colour depth just displays as monochrome. Handspring might have slightly better colour, but it loses by association with the better-known IIIc.

It has always seemed to me that Palm was intentionally playing around with form-factor compatibility, which seemed like something of a gyp. I.e. upgrade your PDA, have to buy all-new extra cradles, keyboards, cases, etc. at $30-100 a pop. Again, Handspring might be slightly better with its Springboard, but Palms already have the reputation for incompatible add-ons and they won't attract existing Palm users to switch and obsolete their accessories.

The whole accessory situation reminds me of the Amiga days, where each new model shifted things by a few millimeters, causing much confusion among makers of add-ons.

As someone who alternates between being an early adopter and staying a generation behind the curve, I can see a PocketPC in my future, but many months down the road when there's compelling software, better battery life, cheap wireless options, and simple switching between Linux and Win CE.

Until then, it makes sense to just stick with basic organizer functionality and not buy any new accessories -- so no chance to sell me a new Palm or Handspring.

Women-CEOs killing the market... :)

[Anonymous Coward]

HP, Handspring... Who is next?

I have Voicestream and it's fine.

[TheMCP]

I signed up as a GSM phone customer with Omnipoint three years ago this week. They were since acquired by Voicestream.

Other than some minor problems with customer service, which were no worse or better than the problems my friends have had with Sprint, Verizon, and AT&T, (and were much less severe than my friends have had with Cingular), I've been extremely happy. In three years I have never had a problem getting a circuit, and having tried phones from all the competing carriers I believe that GSM offers generally superior voice quality. (In theory, Sprint's system can offer superior voice quality, but in practice I don't feel it does.)

Sprint has had some really cool phones over the last few years, and since I like to replace my phone with a hot new model phone regularly (hey, some people have vanity laptops, I have vanity phones) they've had the opportunity to lure me away at any time... but I have yet to see a phone good enough to lure me away from the GSM system.

Oh, and I guess I don't travel much into very rural areas any more, but I hardly ever fail to get GSM service anywhere I go any more, including my father's house in rural Georgia or my middle-of-nowhere hometown in northern New Jersey. GSM penetration has gotten pretty good and it's quite possible it may be just great for your needs.

I'm very interested in the new Handspring phones and will take a close look at them when they get to the US market.

Yeah, and...

[TheMCP]

Yeah, and my Newton still blows away all the PDAs on the current market, IMHO.

Palm got it wrong, Handspring get it right?

[QueenOfSwords]

And what's wrong with geek appeal? We buy the gadgets and recommend technology to our employers, after all.
Handspring are doing something quite smart. The next generation of Handspring units will no doubt still have organiser functions, sync to PC capability, etc etc, and will probably also have add-on hardware, but its a new and very cool niche market that they're after. The pure organisers are dead. I mean, the nifty applications on your Palm are *not* the standard apps, are they?
Palm tried this with the VII series but they got it horribly wrong (tied to one kind of network, webclipping, graffitti sucks as an interface for communication, *only* usuable in the US). Maybe Handspring will get it right.

Re:Palm got it wrong, Handspring get it right?

[elmegil]

Nothing is wrong with geek appeal, as long as there's something ELSE to go along with it. Like usability.

Re:Palm got it wrong, Handspring get it right?

[elmegil]

BTW what planet are you on? The current generation of Handspring units (aka "Visors") have organizer functions, sync to PC capability, add-on hardware. You can even add on hardware to make them into a phone if you're so foolish as to think that's a good idea.

Instead, for some reason Handspring now thinks that a non-expandable all-in-one unit is the answer. And I'm saying that it emphatically is not. Putting all of those eggs into one basket is just wrong for too many reasons.

Re:Palm got it wrong, Handspring get it right?

[QueenOfSwords]

Actually my point was that the new units will fulfill most (if not all) of the functions of the older units, but they have to innovate to differentiate themselves from Palm, Royal, MSI (yes they have a low-end PDA), and everyone else making organisers. Notice I left out PocketPCs - its not quite the same market.

I have one thing to say...

[ghostis]

MODEL T.

PDA's are fantastically useful to me. I don't know how I would get to anything on time without the cling-ting-ting of my Visor Deluxe. However I think chasing the high end (Platinum)is a bad move as well as moving laterally (Treo) if the consumer gets another 500.00 gadget. Ford made millions not by making the coolest car, but by making millions of a good-enough car everyone could afford. People in electronics land forget sometimes the Walmart/Target population. Instead of building a few nifty high margin palm compatible gadgets I think Handspring has the opportunity to redesign for efficiency and then mass produce affordable, practical handhelds in huge numbers. Steve Jobs is addicted to high margins: look at the market penetration of Apple.
Current prices for a Visor Deluxe on ebay are around 70.00. I think 49.99 would just about do it for a target price. This would allow the penetration that would truly launch Springboard as development platform. High margins can be made on nifty modules (GPS, phone, graphing calc. etc) later, after every kid, father and mother has one.

My .02

-ghostis

Re:I have one thing to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Heck, even I (a techie) don't want my PDA to be a $500 gadget. I would always be worried about dropping it. Give me a $70 gadget any day.

Re:PocketPC - Can we talk about usability

[Locutus]

I do understand that but didn't think people in this forum are just as dumb. Bragging about what a device CAN do and what it DOES FOR YOU are two different things. I don't think it's a good idea accepting this and joining in.

To your response I say that Palm and it's partners need to get purchasers to realize what THEIR PDAs can and will do for the consumer instead of following Microsofts way of selling features that aren't worth anything but WOW factor.

IMHO

Still surprised this forum isn't talking more about use....

LoB

Re:PocketPC - Can we talk about usability

[Locutus]

good job. we have ONE.....is it possible there's TWO in all these comments?

Thanks and glad to hear someone here is not falling for the "my toy is bigger than your toy" game.

LoB

PocketPC nothing--problem is no obsolescence

[Robotech_Master]

I think there may be something to this.

Look at the various new Palm compatibles (Palmables?) that are coming out from various companies. They mostly aren't just faster, or even faster and slimmer. Or even with color. They all have gimmicks now. Like the HandEra330, which has a voice recorder and slots for two different kinds of memory expansions, or the Sony CLIEs with the high-res screens and hyped-up IR port which will also serve as universal remote controls.

The Visor Deluxe that I bought back when it was $250 is still adequate for me--or would be if the screen hadn't developed a slight short in it. There's nothing that I want to do with it that I can't already--except maybe wireless, but that's not yet mature enough to warrant consideration. As it is, now that CLIE is looking mighty good...but after I buy that, I don't think I'll need another PalmOS device for a good long while.

Seem to be a case of "early release syndrom"...

[uninet]

...Handspring was the first company to offer add ons for Palm, but I suspect this might have cost them their chance at dominating the market. While Handspring came out with their rather large (relatively speaking) Springboard modules, Palm, Sony, and Handera were able to sit back and come out with superior methods (i.e. SD Cards and Memory Sticks).
It seems to me this is sorta like what happened to Sega with the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast is a cool machine, but the technology that could be released a year later (for the PS2) is much nicer. I suppose, really, the tech industry is littered with tens, or hundreds, of such examples of the cost of too-early releases. If you come out too early your product dies, if you come out too late your product dies - and of course, if you come out against Microsoft... your product _and_ company die, and Microsoft releases something half as good in it's place. *sigh*

-Tim

Sure you can...

[roystgnr]

You realize you're just jumping excitedly into the stereotypical Slashdot user mold, right?

"Well, gee, there must be some reason I'm not scoring with all the chicks the way the heroes of my favorite science fiction TV shows do. I know, I just need more technological gadgets!"

Re:Sure you can...

[Anonymous Coward]

YHBT. HAND. ;^)

Seriously, the original poster was just using the standard scheme: a few key words, some inside-baseball, a half-assed clever comment, and post in the first few minutes that a story is on the front page, and *boom* instant karma. You too can make the Slashdot moderator karma machine work for you. Come on! Everyone's doing it! :^D

Boxy looking PDA or boxy looking phone?

[Fizzlewhiff]

I think I will choose neither. Rather than having a boxy looking phone that has a PDA built into it or a boxy PDA with a phone built into it I think I would rather keep my Visor and have it talk to my nice stylish looking phone (with the features I want in a phone) with something like Bluetooth. In other words I'd like to choose my PDA and my phone separatly. Right now I like the Visor, tomorrow I might like the next Linux PDA. The way the cell phone industry is in the US with providers locking you into a contract for a year and giving you the choice between a Nokia, Nokia, or perhaps even a Nokia it makes sense for me to just wait for the day when a phone and a PDA and a dash mounted GPS can all talk to each other rather than trying to combine them all into one unit. At least my Visor has managed to stay out of the junk drawer unlike my Avigo and my first generation CE device.

Handspring's bad choice about Treo?

[MtViewGuy]

I think the reason why you may never see the Treo in the US market in its current form is the fact that the most common digital cellphone systems here in the USA do NOT use the GSM system (which the Treo requires)--they're mostly using the Qualcomm CDMA standard. Since Europe and Japan uses GSM, that's where most of the market for the Treo cellphone will be, alas.

I expect Handspring instead to develop something akin to the Treo but it will support the CDMA and the upcoming CDMA2000 standard that American cellullar providers use--we may not see it until the fall of 2002. My guess is that Handspring may co-market the device in conjunction with Sprint PCS, Verizon and Cingular Wireless, the largest cellular providers in the USA.

Re:Handspring's bad choice about Treo?

[riwm45]

Read an article that TREO CDMA will be formally announced after the initially released of the products in the U.S. sometime Feb.

Re:Handspring's bad choice about Treo?

[MtViewGuy]

I still think Handspring blew it by NOT introducing a CDMA version of Treo first. They could have captured quite a huge market for Sprint PCS, Cingular and Verizon users almost immediately.

Re:Handspring's bad choice about Treo?

[riwm45]

It must have been an enourmous amount of money to begin with, in view of the cost of launching an innovative product such as TREO. I can only but assume that it has been carefully calculated that a GSM product will be marketable to a wider market globaly to assist a smooth expansion to other venues. That is also, I assume, with great consideration & anticipation for an immediate revenue ramp to be able to expand or grow faster in volume shipment. GSM however, as we all know, is still a predominant network globaly & gaining grounds as per todays article (link provided below) that brought about for the TREO to be based on GSM. Nevertheless I, like you, would love to see one on a more superior network like CDMA ASAP.........But, by far, I can only see the market for CDMA product highly concentrated solely for the U.S. market even though of its (CDMA) presence in Korea & now China...Japan on the other hand is also currently adopting the network as we speak...........BTW, Do you know first hand if Handhelds on the current CDMA is upgradable to 3G CDMA 1x? With GSM, TREO is upgradable to GPRS by a software & Handspring is offering it free to TREO users. I'll say, another good anticipation by the management in an event that Carriers move forward for the upgrade sooner than expected..........Please excuse my grammar, English is my 2nd language............ http://www.infosync.no/show.php?id=1335&page=1

webserver

[autopr0n]

Dude, you can run a web server on anything. It's just about one of the simplest things to implement. The ability to run one on a PDA is not something you should really italicize unless you want to look like a dumbass. People have put web servers on Apple IIs.

Re:webserver

[Ominous Armed Cow]

I cited the webserver and the other examples as an illustration of how far the application availability has come in the few months since it has been released. This variety is only possible because the devices OS is a real Linux OS, not a weak subset of its established namesake.

But, since it is so trivial to run a webserver on your casio watch, when will you send me the link to the IIS port for a wince device?

Oh- That's right, you can't, because:

1) Wince is a stripped down version of a bloated OS which can't run IIS natively.

2) IIS is a bloated intrusion assistance device.

3) You can't port it because you lack the source code.

Oh Ok, how about I make it easy and just ask for the Apache port? That will never happen either because:

1) wince is still a stripped down piece of crippleware that can barely run a 12(?) function "PocketExcel" spreadsheet.

Ooooh. What a powerful brick you got, and for only $500. Where's the keyboard again?

No point

[autopr0n]

There is no point. that's what makes it geeky!

I mean, yeh if you just want to have a day planner get a palm pilot. If you want to have a fully loaded modern computer in your pocket, get a WinCE device. I mean, I don't need to be able to emulate a Nintendo or play MPEG video on my PDA but I can. And that's the whole point of being a geek. Doing things with computers because you can not because it's useful.

Oh, also I just got a slim line Sony notebook SR33k (yay for student loans :). Very smooth. It also only lasts two hours on battery and while its a lot smaller then most laptops its still pretty unwieldy.

Re:PocketPC - Can we talk about usability

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Once again Microsoft gets richer at the expense of usability and the public pays for it.

Last I checked, Microsoft doesn't make or sell any PocketPCs, they only license the OS to OEM's to make their own. Also, the cost to license the OS in small qty is around $35 per unit, so Microsoft isn't exactly making huge sums of money off of this. Just an FYI.

This is a perfect example of bad management...

[SwedishChef]

They have killed off the only real market they had and due to lack of parts they won't be able to penetrate the market they want. Retail channels will no longer order Visors and cannot order Treos. Customers who bought Visors (like me) will remember this when they finally knock on our doors to sell Treos.

Anyone who buys a Visor now is crazy if he/she thinks that Handspring will still be around for support.

There must be great rejoicing in Redmond today.

Jumping the gun, aren't we?

[James McP]

This was a comment to a question in a conference call. I haven't been able to find a full transcript to know exactly what inspired this phrase, but I doubt it's being expressed as it was intended. More than likely someone asked about long term plans and "we'll move to more full functioned, high end, higher average selling price devices" was the intended response.
I'll also state that nothing says that all Treos won't have a springport. The 270 needs something to set it apart from the 180, and unless it's an ARM processor, I expect it to be the springport.
I almost bought a visorphone, but I don't like Voicestream service plans, the only people who offer the GSM data in my area, despite a Cingular presence. (sigh)

Let's define evolution...

[fm6]

In nature, evolution works by killing off failed experiments. I think we can conced that the Springboard has worked out that way.

But if the Springboard is a failure, why should we expect the Treo to do any better? The Visor might have been more successful if it hadn't been impeded by Handspring's inept manufacturing and distribution operations.

You mention Sony's older TV models. Sure, they stopped making them, but not before selling a lot of them -- and establishing Sony as a major player in consumer electronics. Actually, those early Sony TVs and radios were more than just gadgets. They were proof that solid-state was the best way to do mass-produced electronics. Nowadays that seems obvious. But 50 years ago when Sony decided to make transitor-based products, it was anything but.

So that cute little TV was more than a product. It was a proof-of-concept with far-reaching consequences. Silly to compare that with anything Handspring has done.

CISC vs. RISC

[Dr. Manhattan]

Sure, no one will ever run Quake on any existing Palm, but the Dragonball ain't so bad. For one thing, binaries for CISC processors tend to be smaller than those for RISC processors, which stretches that 8 or 16MB quite a bit. I've barely filled half of my 8MB, and I've got a bunch of street maps loaded up. I think the largest actual code is LispMe, a Scheme environment, and it's ~175K.

Heck, the Mac SE came out in 1987 with an 8MHz 68000 (the Dragonball's model) and 2MB of RAM. It cost almost $3K and sure didn't run for months on two AAA batteries. After I upgraded it to 4MB, I did development on that puppy. (Okay, it had a whopping 40MB hard drive, fine.)

I admit that a high-res screen would be nice. The problem is that small, flat, high-res screens are expensive, and eat power, and probably will stay that way for a while. The ARM processor doesn't eat as much power as others, but 206MHz doesn't come free. I can get 20 hours of continuous operation on my Palm IIIxe; from what I've heard, 4 hours is great for a WinCE device.

Maybe you just need to wait a couple more generations. The first Palms came out in, what, 1997 or so, and were about equivalent to a mid-to-late-80's PC. The WinCE devices of 2001 are about equivalent to an early-to-mid-90's PC. At that rate by 2005 or so you should be able to hold in your hand something roughly equivalent to an average PC of today.

Re:Yeah, and you have to write you own apps and ga

[Ominous Armed Cow]

Bundled Games:
- Go
- Asteroids clone (3d version, not the original)
- Solitaire clone
- Snake (Tron)
- Minehunt clone
- Scrabble clone
- Mindbreaker (think Mastermind)

Other famous games which have been tried:
- Quake
- Quake II (runs low on memory)

And as for apps, RTFPost, it is a *real*, fully-functional OS, so memory space is the only limitation as to what apps can be ported. In general, most console based apps can be ported directly. Other's have already ported an X server, so that opens up that set of apps.

In short, the SL5000D has surpassed in one month's time the pitiful selection of applications which the wince platform has struggled to attract for the last four years. *cough cough* Suck it up you MS toady.

You fucking idiot

[autopr0n]

Oh Ok, how about I make it easy and just ask for the Apache port? That will never happen either because: [sniped random idiocy]

you mean like this?

It took me a whole 2 seconds of searching on google to find that. If you knew anything about computers you would know the following:

1) WinCE is as much a 'real' OS as Linux and Windows (premtive multithreading, protected memory, sockets, etc)

2) You don't need a 'real OS' to run a webserver and you never did. You can run a web server on an Atari 800.

3) The quality of the OS has nothing to do with the quality of the Excel port.