Scientology Uses DMCA to Delist Critic's Website

touretzky writes: "Scientology has used a DMCA threat to force removal of a large number of pages from xenu.net from the Google search engine. Some of the pages Scientology is objecting to contain no material owned by the cult; other pages are clearly covered under "fair use". Scientology's ongoing abuse of Google is documented here. Of course, the Norwegian owner of xenu.net could write a counternotification letter, but that would require him to agree to the jurisdiction of a US court in a district of Scientology's choosing." The posting by Heldal-Lund agrees with what we can observe at Google - the pages listed in the posting aren't in Google's database, though many others are. Update: 03/21 14:16 GMT by M : Paul Wouters of xtdnet.nl (which hosts xenu.net) submits this page documenting Scientology's attacks against the ISP for continuing to host xenu.net.

Comments

DMCA as a religion

[geeky-troll]

Cant we use the DMCA as a religio and ask tax reduction for it.. just like scientology does

Re:DMCA as a religion

[geeky-troll]

Sorry, I meant 'DMCA as a Regillio'

What's with scientology?

[Spazntwich]

Are they convinced the way to expand their membership is to make enemies with... everyone?

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. The way they expand their membership is to brainwash those who are susceptible to their lies, and to publically humiliate/slander/assassinate anyone who stands in their way.

Re:What's with scientology?

[SweenyTod]

It's not really all that surprising. They have a long history of threatening anybody who critises them. They drove one critic out of America, sued the creator of this site, to name two of the more well known actions.

They have no choice. Their creater, L Ron Hubbard, said that they were to never defend, always attack. They can't help themselves. I run a small web site, with some critical information on it, and I've had legal threats.

Re:What's with scientology?

[danro]

Well, if you are trying to peddle the kind of bulls**t they do, you don't have much of a choise.
If people heard the whole story about evil space empires and such before they were sucked into the cult, few would join...
..and that would disrupt their cashflow.

As we all know that the DMCAs purpose is to protect the revenues of businesses. At everyone elses expense.

Re:What's with scientology?

[ab762]

In Canada, they've lost all the way to the Supreme Court - One case is Hill v. Church of Scientology of Toronto, 1995. It was a libel case, and the details will look pretty familiar. Holysmokehas an extract and this is the full thing. Umontreal's archive is linked from the official Supreme Court of Canada page.

Great quote: "Every aspect of this case demonstrates the very real and persistent malice of Scientology." - from the Court itself.

I know that there have been many other rulings in Canada against Scientology, but only this one is easily available on-line.

Henry Troup - hwt@igs.net

Re:What's with scientology?

[arkanes]

I worked for a bookstore once, and they called us to ask if we'd be interested in carrying thier books. We told them no. They weoman on the line then got very aggressive and argumentative, insisting to know why we wouldn't carry them (hatred of stupid cult + no money), wanting our names and addresses (home address, not just the store one) and lots of other ridiculous stuff before we hung up on her. Was kinda scary, really.

Re:What's with scientology?

[The Qube]

A great book to read on the subject and their philosophy is "A Piece of Blue Sky" by Jon Atack.

You can read it here.

Re:What's with scientology?

[DrXym]

Scientology expands it's membership via various "charities" and frontgroups who's sole purpose is to raise money for the "church" and recruit new members.

One example is Narconon which is little more than a scientology front designed to seperate addicts and their families from their cash while simultaneously indoctrinating them into the Co$. There have been numerous testimonials that the last thing Narconon is interested in is seeing people get better.

And of course they also hawk their ridiculous "self help" Dianetics book in informercials and flyers (never mentioning the Co$ of course) as well as the usual "personality tests" and other sleazy means they con people into visiting their premises. They'll do anything to get vulnerable, troubled and most importantly solvent people caught up into believing their lies. They even stooped so low as to do a recruitment drive for WTC victims, under the guise of offering counselling of course.

Whatever the means, the "raw meat" (the mark) gets a few "free" intensive audits, after which their reasoning faculties are sufficiently suppressed that the Co$ can start milking them for cash by selling self-improvement courses and so on. The higher up this "bridge" they get, the more money the courses cost. The Co$ doesn't like people knowing about their courses because it deprives them of money and exposes them to ridicule.

It is actually worth reading Dianetics (don't buy it though) to see how ludicrous it all is. The author L Ron Hubbard and Co$ was a nut, a criminal, a pathological liar, a sadist, a control freak and a conman. Diananetics and his other works (e.g. A History of Man) are like an attractive lure on the end of a fishing line. Promise the reader the answer to all their problems can be found in the Co$ and then reel 'em in. It's quite tragic to think how many lives this man has ruined.

Re:What's with scientology?

[lermanet]

Thanks for the pointer Sweenytodd,

Well, right now the Keith Henson page mentioned in article at operatingthetan.com is unavailable.. due to load from slashdot hits, we need to spread the load out for folks that are motivated to find out more about the KING of CONs.. L Ron Hubbard,

It doesnt matter which of the many critical pages one hits...we are all hooked to the resources on each other's pages. An index of the critical sites is here: http://www.lermanet.com/links/index.html,

All folks have to do to defeat scientology and send it to the scarp yard of history is to keep on getting the word out,

Ferengi + Borg = Scientology I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Re:What's with scientology?

[hyacinthus]

Well, not _everyone_. Bear in mind that the only people whom are likely to be pissed off by this latest abuse of Google are the relatively small minority of persons who care about such technical matters (e.g. Slashdot readers.) Scientology has probably already written us off as unfit for conversion; they're not losing any potential members by making enemies of us.

The important thing about most of these online antics of Scientology (spamming alt.religion.scientology, going after penet.fi, trying to get their OT documents pulled from websites, &c.) is that they matter very little to most people. Sure, Scientology has made a lot of enemies among the regulars on certain newsgroups and websites, but what of that? Outside of that small group are masses of people to whom Scientology is, at most, perhaps a certain building downtown and a guy handing out leaflets on a street corner, and in that respect is no different from many other cults and religious groups on the fringe. The first I'd ever heard of _public_ opposition of and protest against Scientology was after the Lisa McPherson affair.

hyacinthus.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, whether they (and other religions) actually ruin lives is debateble. My point being that the lusers who believe the crud, are doomed to fail at anything they do in life anyway...

The fact is that religeous people are gullable.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Guillermito]

> It's not really all that surprising. They have a > long history of threatening anybody who critises > them.

It is somewhat surprising, at least according to their creed:

http://www.scientology.org/world/worldeng/corp/c re ed.htm

"We of the Church believe: That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others"

But I guess this is not the first time in which the actions of a religious body is inconsistent with its stated beliefs.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Easy2RememberNick]

It's not a religeon.

Re:What's with scientology?

[troc]

They probably have a definition of "men" somewhere that states "a man is defined as someone who belongs to the cult^h^h^h^hchurch of Scientology"

Troc

Re:What's with scientology?

[King_TJ]

Has anyone compiled a list of all the businesses and "charities" these clowns are running?

I understand that the ISP Earthlink is owned by them, for example - and if it's really serving as a cash cow for their cult, that's one pretty hefty source of income!

I doubt most people even realize that they're contributing to some of these things.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.scientology.org/world/worldeng/corp/cre ed.htm

"We of the Church believe: That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others"

That's their public display-case Creed. Their real, secret creed is that anyone who criticizes them is "Fair Game."

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than win.

"The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." L. Ron Hubbard, the Manual of Justice

Re:What's with scientology?

[RDskutter]

Its not a religion. Its a cult. There is a difference.

Re:What's with scientology?

[DrXym]

The Co$ ruins lots of lives.

Those who go nuts or kill themselves, those who are conned out of every last penny, those who work for the cult in bad conditions for little or no pay, those who don't get treatment for mental/physical illnesses because the Co$ says them that drugs & psychiatrists are evil, those who are told to disconnect with "suppresive" families & friends, critics whom the cult has framed or harrassed.

BTW The Co$ isn't a religion except in the tax-exempt sense. It is a cult and a particularly nasty one at that.

Re:What's with scientology?

[jafac]

I don't understand why, if they get tax-exempt status as a religion, do their "trade secrets" qualify for protection under the DCMA. The DCMA should not apply to them if they're a religion, and not a business.

Re:What's with scientology?

[ParadigmShift]

Thank you for posting this. So far I've read Part 1 in it's entirety, and it is fascinating.

The author, indoctrinated into Scientology for many years, recounts his experiences and how he actually got involved in this Cult.

Highly recommended for anyone who is interested in the thought processes of a Scientology Member, and how seemingly intelligent people can join such an organization.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

OFF TOPIC?

no way. that's funny! (assuming he's not actually serious, then he'd be a raving loony)

Re:What's with scientology?

[phriedom]

I thought it was a patented technology.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why, if they get tax-exempt status as a religion, do their "trade secrets" qualify for protection under the DCMA. The DCMA should not apply to them if they're a religion, and not a business.

I don't understand this either, but it seems they have enought influence with the US government to be a business only when it is to their advantage and at the same time gain all freebies from being a "religion".
When some of their "intellectual property" was made public in my country, they had a US congressman write a diplomatic letter to the government wich led to the documents being withdrawn from the public.
In the meantime they had the local scientologists sitting at the location of the documents 24/7 "reading" them, just to keep everyone else from seeing it.

They are a scary bunch for sure...
An unholy combination of the worst parts of religion and business.
As true enemies of free speech they are liberally dishing out lawsuits left and right...

Re:What's with scientology?

[issachar]

This is why I think that "tax exempt" status for religious organizations should be eliminated. Why should the government decide what is a religion and what isn't? And since when is money essential to faith? Jesus does not need tax-exempt status to save the lost. (And he did say to pay your taxes). Tax-free status for religions is just a way to encourage money-making, morally corrupt organizations like the so-called "church" of scientology masquerade as a religion. .

Re:What's with scientology?

[Queer Boy]

This is why I think that "tax exempt" status for religious organizations should be eliminated. Why should the government decide what is a religion and what isn't?

The original concept behind tax exempt status for churches was the separation of church and state idea. There's lots of things "churches" get away with, and lots of things that the state cannot do on church property (like arrest someone without the church's consent). But it also keeps the state from enforcing religious views (technically).

There's lots and lots and LOTS of reasons why this used to be a very good idea. Like everything with good intentions, it was just a stop along the way to hell.

Money and power have always been more important than friendship and happiness. Sadly, almost every religion is based upon the opposite.

Re:What's with scientology?

[issachar]

maybe that was the original concept, but it's an idea that's been destroyed over time.

the government can indeed arrest someone on "church" property without the church's consent. (Waco Texas would be the best example of this)

and how does exempting a religious organization from taxes stop them from enforcing religious views? I would think that this comes from the part of the US constitution that says that the government cannot establish an official religion. (not American, so I don't know the exact clause).

Waving the carrot of tax free status gives the government much more control over a religion than simply taxing them.

Whatever the original reasons, tax free status is a liability today and should be abolished.

.

Re:What's with scientology?

[(outer-limits)]

I was brought up a catholic, and can't see much difference between that and Scientology. The current Pope stifles all dissent in the church. Catholics are brought up to hate being alive and craving death. Priests are meant to be celibate. Young, ignorant irish girls were badgered into becoming nuns at 16, growing up to become neurotic psycopaths, beating up young children. Birth control is banned, in the hope it will increase the number of Catholics in the world. Children brought up as Catholics often turning to drugs, suicide, poor relationships. The long and proud history of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. And thats just the Catholic faith.

Don't get me started on the Jewish faith, (Not Jews per se). Once again, extremists are putting the world at risk for the sake of a principle. At present, the real sticking point in the peace settlement is the Jewish settlements in the west bank, and gaza. Why are they there? Because god wants them there! A few thousand people holding the world to ransom.

There are more religions on my hit list, but that will do for now.

Re:What's with scientology?

[kubrick]

They got tax-exempt status by harassing the people working on their IRS case mercilessly, on a very personal level. An object lesson for anyone out there who feels that their tax bill is too high, obviously...

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can learn a lot about them from their signs.

For a few weeks, a local one said:
"Think for yourself."

Later, they changed it to:
"Something CAN be done about it."

Nice to know that something can be done about people thinking for themselves, no? Nothing like trading all your money for a thurough brain scrubbing... ;)

Re:What's with scientology?

[Michael O-P]

I would be curious to see someone else respond to this allegation. I've tried to do some independent verification, and while I know the founder and chairman (Sky Dayton) is a member, as are (were?) many of the upper ranks, there doesn't seem to be the same coercion to take "corporate seminars" that are really CoS recruitments in disguise.

I applied for a job in 1996 for a company in L.A. that published "Internet Yellow Pages" both in paper format and online. They paid people to surf the net and rate pages (1 to 5 stars). I don't remember the name of the company, nor can I find any mention of them now, but Sky Dayton was on their board, as were other CoS members. An employee took me aside and told me about the forced seminars, and someone later told me they quit after that type of requirement. I didn't take the job, but I've always kept an eye on Earthlink after that.

Having said that, it seems as though Earthlink behaves like a normal ISP that wants to make money. They don't force CoS rules on their employees, nor do they kick people off their service for being critics of the, ahem, "church." Granted, Earthlink makes a lot of money for those Scientologists in charge, who in turn give quite a bit of that money to the organization. But I believe they have many non-Scientologist executives and have done a good job of separating their business from their beliefs.

I'm not defending Earthlink, that's just what I've found so far. If there is a larger connection, I would like to learn about it so that I can cancel any clients' accounts with them.

Re:What's with scientology?

[El_Froggo]

I think we can take some advice from Tool right now. "Fuck L Ron Hubbard" from Ænima. I really don't understand why people get so caught up in religion. Its almost like people have no faith in themselves, so they need these figures to follow.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be their communications 'training' (TRs 4 and upwards i believe) kicking in... I believe they're taught that if they don't get what they want, they are to become more and more aggressive, even to the point of physical violence.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

It amuses me to no end to think that Scientology can rake in more brainwashing funds if GW gets his faith-based initiatives funding. Even W isn't that damn stupid.
(Also, my girlfriend and I enjoyed the personality test flyer that was stuck to my windshield one day)

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

The author L Ron Hubbard and Co$ was a nut, a criminal, a pathological liar, a sadist, a control freak and a conman.

...for those who think that DrXyMs post may have contained hyperbole, may I suggest you listen to this.

(yes, it's unfair to take something out of context...but listen to the whole spiel...and tell me if you can find a context it *should* be in, other than the ramblings of a mad man?)

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

Our largest local bookstore carries their books but has angered the scientologists by placing them in the "Science Fiction" section right next to the likes of the Dungeons and Dragons, Star Trek, and all the other fantasy books.

I don't know if it's more of an insult for the scientology books to be called fisction or for the other books to have the scientology next to it...

Re:What's with scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

198.95.10.33

Running NT/win98 !!!

1,000,000 bucks says they got holes the size of travolta's ego on the Co$ site.

Re:What's with scientology?

[ab762]

Background followup. A list of other and related Canadian cases is here. Regrettably, many of the links in this document are broken. I'm quoting highlights here, all quotes from that web page.

The story is convoluted and long. In 1977 the Ontario Medical Association (OMA) alleged that Scientology was practicing medicine without a license. Scientology sued and lost. A Scientologist got a job at the OMA and stole documents - later pled guilty on that.

In 1983, the Ontario Provincial Police searched the Toronto Church of Scientology on a warrant for "tax fraud, criminal fraud and deceit in the sale of courses and E-Meters, and conspiracy to effect an unlawful purpose, i.e., the use of the Guardian Office to commit indictable offenses including theft and breaking and entering."

By 1992 "The theft charges were dismissed due to inadmissibility of documents; the Church of Scientology of Toronto was found guilty on charges of breach of trust, and several of the individual defendants were found guilty on various charges."

The case I cited above was related to this whole can of worms.

Henry Troup - hwt@igs.net

Re:What's with scientology?

[Queer Boy]

the government can indeed arrest someone on "church" property without the church's consent. (Waco Texas would be the best example of this)

David Koresh's compound was not a "church". It was classified as a cult.

Re:What's with scientology?

[Derleth]

Our largest local bookstore carries their books but has angered the scientologists by placing them in the "Science Fiction" section right next to the likes of the Dungeons and Dragons, Star Trek, and all the other fantasy books.

What's Star Trek and Dungeons and Dragons ever done to them? What Science Fiction series is bad enough to deserve being placed next to a $cientology $creed?

Oh, yeah: 'Battlefield Earth'.

Re:What's with scientology?

[issachar]

so who classifies it as a cult in this case? Obviously the government. This essentially makes any restriction on arresting people self-imposed.

.

lots of techies into scientology?

[sdflkgfljdqshgjkqsfg]

Wow, that's the second /. story concerning scientology in a few weeks. They seem very present on the Internet going to some lengths being even more present. I don't have the impression that other 'religions' are as technologically orientated as this. Thoughts?

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[JMemmert]

I agree that scientology is more present on the web than other religious communities.
Unfortunately, it is completely in sync with their overall strategy.:-(
One major leg of their operations is to get the managers of companies. Through them, they then infiltrate the rest of the company. For that, they offer "management seminars" and the like, which are not visibly scientology-seminars, if my memory of the news doesn't fault me here...
This top-down approach is, as far as I know, unique to them. No other religious grouping that I am aware of does that.
Of course, their seminars are so hideously expensive that they need financially potent customers, so it is understandable.

What I find dangerous about that presence is not that they're "here" but that they are allowed to bully people into believing that their claims hold some validity...
After all, google did remove the links, so there must be some valid claim behind it.
Of course, there isn't... but the impression is created... and impressions are mightier than fact on the web (and most other places in the world).
The fact that scientology has never filed any infringement suit should make it obvious that there is no validity in their claim.
That is not the case though...
After all, this is a possible way to look at things:
The google lawyers looked at the allegation, found it valid, acted accordingly.
And thus, it was not neccessary to file a suit.
This is the classic "I can turn my weakness into a strength" trick... and again, perception is mightier than the fact.

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientology is scary as hell.

I'm a big interactive fiction fan, and have been playing Anchorhead lately.

Scientology reminds me way too much of it--it's like some weird Lovecraftian-Jamesian horror story.

Are they waiting for the coming of Iaolobaoloth from the beyond to devour us in its tentacles or something?

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[bfree]

And at a recent "Body, Mind and Spirit" conference in Dublin Ireland there was a very clean looking stand with no indication as to who it was but they were obviously nice people offering "Free Stress Tests". A slightly closer inspection revelead that in fact this was the scienmoroligists and they justed wanted to plug people into the machine. I laughed and laughed and laughed and described my memories of scientoligists to my friends while standing at the edge of their stand. They liked that especially as all I could really remember was the outline of the OT III!

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually remember the Late Late Show, with Gay Byrne (an irish talk show, on saturdays around 9pm), a long time ago, when they had the Scientoligists invited to a program (on cults and the likes!).

Funniest thing was when I think a prof of one of the uni's in Dublin produced a poster detailing their organisation, the scientologists went completly bonkers demanding the poster, threatening law suits and all sorts of other really scarey stuff ;).

They just did not want anyone telling any of their inner workings to the general public, he said he got the poster in a freely available book, they just wanted to get their hands on him and tear him to shreads!

They did mention that the Scientology had an "office" somewhere in dublin for "stress tests" and the like... The prof went in and did his investigating and then proceeded to show his results on the tv show, the scientologists went even more nutty... Boy, were they pissed! I think the program was the examination of cults, but by the end, it was everyone against the scientologists...

I once ran up against a high ranking member of a company I did some work for long ago, who was a member of the scientologists. He casually mentioned becoming better manager to myself and another network manager, taking some tests for management and the like (a smoke screen for scientology), and we both laughed at him... Kinda ironic that we never worked or were never called to their place of business ever again!

Funny the things that stick in your mind from long ago...

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Feelgood]

I'm not sure they are more present, they just make the news more because of high profile actions such as this. If someone were to post the entire contents of the Bible, Torah, or Koran, I don't think any Christians, Jews, or Muslims would be offended. In fact, it has already been done countless times.

IMO, the other 'religions' that you refer to actually want people to read their texts to find out more about them. As a Christian, critical thinking is an imperitive part of my belief system and theology. I am passionate about wanting to know the truth. If I hear something in one of my pastor's sermons that I disagree with, I ask him about it. Usually I come to understand his POV, though I still may disagree. He is absolutely fine with my disagreeing. In fact, I would wager that he would be a bit sketical of anyone who agreed 100% with absolutely everything he said.

On a different note, isn't there some way to put Scientology, Microsoft and RIAA against each other? Maybe Microsoft could distribute a pirated song that lambasts Scientology? At least then they could keep each other's legal departments busy for a while?

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Texas Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation (MHMR) is almost completely made up of Scientologists in the upper levels of management.

It regularly hires or promotes Scientologists into positions of management, and in most cases pays them well above normal salary for such positions.

In fact, the head of MHMR is either the first or second highest paid state employee in Texas (I forget.)

As a condition of employment at or above a certain level of management, employees are required to take one or more "ropes courses", which is promoted as a confidence/team-building class, but is in fact one of these screening/indoctrination courses operated by CoS.

This of course is illegal, and since it's being paid for by the state, it is redirecting state taxpayer money to CoS.

So Texas taxpayers have been unwittingly been funding the CoS for several years. Despite volumes of very concrete and damning evidence, the State Attorney General won't even discuss taking up a case.

I wonder how many other states or state agencies are in the same situation?

It's too bad I have to post this anonymously.

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Mr.Ned]

Top-down was used by Christianity for a long time. When it became the official religion of the Roman empire, it was not the most practiced religion or even close - rich, powerful people had been converted (like Constantine and many of the emperors up to whoever actually made it official). When the Christians went to convert the barbarians, they'd target the leaders of the tribe (mostly because it was the leader's beliefs that dictated the beliefs of the tribe).

But it is pretty effective.

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, the head of MHMR is either the first or second highest paid state employee in Texas (I forget.)

I would guess it would be neither. The head of MHMR is restricted by statute to a maximum of $140,000/year, while both the head of the Higher Ed. Board and the head of the Dept. of Criminal Justice are similarly restricted to a maximum of $150,000/year. That is not to say that any of those people actually earn that much, but it is to say they are capped at that amount by current law.

I didn't bother to look up any other positions, because that would be beside the point, but I am quite confident that there are other head earning similar salaries. Of course, that salary would still make the head of MHMR one of the highest-paid state employees, although that is more because of statute than it is because of Scientology.

It's a shame that I also have to post this anon.

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[issachar]

sure they are.

I can give you a couple of Christian links if you like.

Campus Crusade

Bible Gateway

The reason you don't get /. stories about them is that they don't threaten google with lawsuits for daring to link to people critical of them.

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting you'd cite gospelcom.

They have a very extensive page on the criminal cult of Scientology.

Re:lots of techies into scientology?

[Grue]

Ironically, I wrote an essay the other night about some of these same dangers :(. The dangers of social institutions for control, and how more often then not they're out of control. I had just visited operation clambake on Tuesday. Anyways, I got kind of carried away writing it, so it's a bit rambling. But the studies and references in it are good if you've never seen them before. It's over here.

Josh

Effectiveness?

[TheGreenLantern]

As I understand it, Google is only required to remove refrences to certain pages on the site, not the whole site entirely?

How effective is this going to be? Even if the pages to "Operation Clambake" or whatever are removed from Google, xenu.net is probably still going to show up (depending on the search criteria used, I suppose). Once you're at the xenu.net home page, it's a trivial matter to find the other pages in question that Scientology has a problem with.

Re:Effectiveness?

[TheFalken]

:nods
The ban only applies to one single wordon it's own, phrases still turn up xenu pages.

Re:Effectiveness?

[Placido]

I'm not sure about that. The list of URL's which the Scientology Cult complain about include the xenu.net homepage and I certainly didn't see a result when I searched for www.xenu.net. So if you search for xenu you're not going to get anything and when people are searching for information they're not going to get many links to xenu.net so less chance they go there.

In answer to your question, this is going to be very effective. Mod the parent down and next time read the article.

The list:
www.xenu.net/
www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/
www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/
www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/index.h tml
www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/prop1.h tml
and alot more - lameness filter encountered. Sucky lameness filter!

Re:Effectiveness?

[TheGreenLantern]

Looks like your right. Oddly enough, though, while doing a Google search for "xenu.net" doesn't pull up anything, a search for "operation clambake" will still pull up a couple of archive links on the xenu.net domain.

Your right though, getting Google to block pretty much the entire xenu.net domain is obviously something to be very very worried about.

Re:Effectiveness?

[GCU Friendly Fire]

Yes, one way to fight this would be simply to put up a page containing a copy of the list of links sent by the cult to Google, and ensure that this page gets googled. If enough people do this then there will be as much coverage as before, albeit defered. There are different ways in which Google could deal with this, but I don't think they'd feel vulnerable enough to go further than they have in complying with the cult's demands.

Re:Effectiveness?

[krouic]

If you look at the list of URLs submitted to Google by the church of $cientology, you'll notice that the first one is the root "www.xenu.net", which somehow condemns the whole site.

Krouic

Re:Effectiveness?

[mencik]

Not very effective. If you do a search just for "scientology", the first reference to a xenu.net page appears on the eigth page of results. However, if you note the categories appearing on the first page, one of them is "Society > Religion and Spirituality > Opposing Views > Scientology". If you click through that link, Operation Clambake (URL http://www.xenu.net) is the first page listed.

Aren't

[Anonymous Coward]

The Scientologists banned from Germany as they are considered a non-serious organisation, or something similar?

And, then how does Germany act upon Google and stuff?

Re:Aren't

[phreaklegion]

I believe it's under the anti-facism laws. xenu.net could probably provide a more definitive answer.:)

Civil disobedience anyone?

[ThorGod]

Come on, if people would just _not_ accept this law (especially if they're in another country!) it won't be affective. Take a lesson from Thoraeu, Gandhi, and King people! It's called nonviolent protest, it's called civil disobedience! It's called a chance against this! Damn....

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[TheGreenLantern]

Individuals can participate in civil disobedience, companies cannot. If they'd try, it would be called "failure to comply" and the company would be fined, or perhaps even dissolved should they take it that far.

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[ThorGod]

Well, a company's one thing, but this affects a little more than companies. Just take a second a think of how it might affect you or already has.

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[TheGreenLantern]

Sure it affects me, but what am I going to do, boycott Scientology? Been doing that for 29 years already. Boycott Google? Not their fault they have to obey some shitbox law.

If your talking about civil disobeying the DMCA, I'm all for that, though I'd be interested to hear how. Mirrors of the "forbidden" information perhaps?

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[Hanno]

It's an American law. You American citizens can write your congressmen about this.

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[dattaway]

And what are you going to do when American Laws invade your soil? Run and hide?

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[Placido]

That's not such a bad idea actually!

*ponders* I've got about 30 MB of space on my free ntl account. *grins*

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[Hanno]

It's an American law, applied to an American company (Google). If Sc. tries to apply an American law on a German search engine, you'll see me writing to my local guys in the Bundestag, trust me.

Besides, I *did* write to two dozen US congressmen and the US consulate in Germany about my concerns about the SSSCA, being an IT professional who will by directly affected by that law if it passes the US lawmakers.

I received no reply from any of them, being the puny foreigner I am.

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[ThorGod]

Well, mirroring the "forbidden" information is exactly what I was thinking. In fact, I have fast enough line in my room right now, I might just do that. Anyone else with me?

Thing is, before I do that I'd have to really research this and I'd suggest anyone elses who's interested do the same. Civil disobedience is nice, but you have to be ready to pay dearly.

Also, living in the US doesn't make me nor anyone else powerful against our government simply because we can *write our senators*. Not saying it wont help anything, but something along that line's isn't what I was talking about in this case. Which one would be more effective? Well, civil disobedience has _worked_ in the past and can work again, but I'm at a loss for examples where writing a senator has actually gotten anything done (minus the killing of a tree for the paper).

Re:Civil disobedience anyone?

[NaDrew]

Rather than mirroring it (which I'm not saying is a bad idea, but I don't have time to do it myself right now), I have taken the list posted by OperatingThetan of URLs the CoS had Google remove, and converted them to a links list. I linked the list page innocuously on my own index page where Googlebot will be sure to find it next time it spiders me. The idea came from something I read on /. a while ago (can't recall the story reference, sorry) about how sites keep their older content current in Google by providing a basic list of links. If anyone can find the story I'm talking about, link it here, please, 'cause it explains the idea better than I am.

Copyrighting religion?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was under the impression religion was open-source and free. Scientology seems to be muddying the line between product and religion - taking the best bits from both and using them in their favour. Most other religions just have to stand up to criticism - evidently by marketing it as a product, you get to (ab)use the law to get your own way.

Scientology - the Microsoft of religions. Embrace and extend... FUD... it's all there...

Re:Copyrighting religion?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. You can't copyright facts.
2. Most religions advocate that their beliefs are fact.
3. Scientology copyrights their beliefs.

Scientologists must not believe their religion is true, Q.E.D.

All the Joys of the Inquisition. . .

[AlaskanUnderachiever]

With none of the fattening butter cream. That's right boys and girls, now you too can experience ScientologyLite today! Learn what it is to be a Christian in name only! Define your lack of faith by the structure of your beleif system! Sorry, but as an avid church goer I have a major problem with the public campaigns that Scientology has been parading around. The phrase "Load of Crap" comes to mind...

Re:All the Joys of the Inquisition. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

And what makes your belief system any better or any worse than theirs? Hmmm? They've got the right to believe the way the want to, so do you. By calling them wrong, you open yourself up to the same criticism, chum.

Re:All the Joys of the Inquisition. . .

[ShavenYak]

They've got the right to believe the way the want to, so do you.

True. However, at least in the U.S. they do not have the right to silence critics, nor to intimidate by threat of lawsuit, or many of the other wonderful things the "church" of $cientology does.

Re:All the Joys of the Inquisition. . .

[connorbd]

Anti-Scientology folks (as well as a few others; I believe the term is used among anti-JW activists as well) have a term, invented by non-member believers (or squirrels, as the Co$ calls them), called the Free Zone. Those are people who still believe what they believe even though they're no longer affiliated with the church.

Yes, you're free to believe what you wish; that's what the freezoners are about, and nobody has the right to take their beliefs away from them. The objection is to the organization. (Granted, the belief system *is* a crock, but you can't take that away...)

/Brian

www.google.com's new banner?

[orangesquid]

(C)2002 Google - Searching 2,073,418,204 web pages and skipping 4,475,243,576 pages under the DMCA

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[fleener]

Who is bigger, Scientology or Google?

Google should take a stand and let Scientology sue away. Who would still like Scientology if it was responsible for Google's downfall?

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[AftanGustur]

(C)2002 Google - Searching 2,073,418,204 web pages and skipping 4,475,243,576 pages under the DMCA

Could also make a nice .sig

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[Bishop]

$cientology is much bigger in terms of raw "legal firepower." Worst is that $cientology knows and is really good at legal dirty tricks.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[fleener]

Look at the situation, in my opinion:

Today people don't much care about Scientology filing a lawsuit against this person or that person. "Who are those people and why do I care if they're fighting an organization I don't even understand? Scientology never hurt me."

I bet people would take notice if Google was sued. Three things could happen:

1. Google gains even more users.
2. Opponents mirror the offending material more now than ever, making it even easier to find in Google.
3. Scientology's public image could be ruined if it endangered Google's future.

People could begin asking, "What is Scientology and why did they make my favorite search engine go away? I can't find anything anymore."

Under the current situation I only see:

1. Google losing respect as an authoritative search engine, bowing to legal pressure at the expense of its core mission (helping people find web pages).

If Google would guarantee that Scientology appears as the first link in Google results when users search for the world "Scientology," I don't see why Scientology would care about anti-Scientology material. Only people interested in that material will spend the time to look at it. People read the first link, and if it sounds right, they click it. End of story.

In all my observations of user behavior, I've never seen a user read all of the search results and thoughtfully consider them before selecting which link is appropriate. They click the first link that looks like it might remotely be correct.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[FFFish]

Yah, well, the problem with having Scientology sue you is that the organization has no scruples at all.

If Google didn't toe Scientology's line, the following would happen:
* pickets outside the founders' homes, claiming that they're pedophiles and hate-mongers.
* their pets would be drowned.
* their family and friends would be harassed.
* their telephone, cableco, banking, and other accounts would be subjected to social engineering attempts to shut 'em down.
* the Google HQ would be picketed.
* the US Government would be petitioned to intervene against Google.
* there would be endless court time, made as expensive as possible by Scientology.

There are all tactics they've used in the past against their "enemies," both in court and outside of court, against critics and ex-Scientologists who start revealing the truth about hte organization.

Scientology is an 800-lb gorilla with bad intentions.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[daviddennis]

Scientology's public image is already ruined.

Anyone halfway knowledgeable knows what an ugly group of sharks they are.

The danger is that there are still people who don't know about them and can get sucked in.

I can't help but notice that Xenu.net was the only site that was in the first page of results when searching for 'scientology'. Everything else is various Scientology clone sites. So now, there's nothing but clones in the results.

What Google should do is flush the clone sites from their database; that would be a routine cleanup and would cause other anti-CoS sites to appear in their list.

That way, they've behaved in an entirely neutral and impartial manner, since I'm sure Scientology's spamming of Google's results is a blatant violation of Google policy.

D

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[fleener]

Then, *gasp*, maybe we should promote alternatives to Google.

You know, I like Dr. Pepper. It's the best. But I can live with drinking Mr. Pibb, or even Dr. Skipper. There must be reasonable alternatives to Google.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's to say that their aren't Scientologists in Google? Maybe the influence isn't as 'external' as we would like to believe.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[daviddennis]

Let's see what kind of action they take first.

If they follow my advice, Scientology will actually be worse off than they were before, and there isn't a darn thing they can do about it.

D

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[ImaLamer]

You forget to mention they like to MURDER people.

Time to post as an AC? Sure... but CmdrTaco could be one and then it won't matter.

What scares me is that they are more powerful than the gov't and have better tactics.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[dillon_rinker]

It's interesting to cmopare the content of your post with your tagline...

"They say you can't legislate morality. Well, you certainly can."-John Ashcroft Chicago Tribune May 25, 1998

If murder isn't immoral, I don't know what is. Yet we have laws against it. What you can't do is eliminate immorality through legislation. Murder still occurs, even in Texas.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[rfrank_]

You forgot being framed for bomb threats

Operation FreakOut anyone?

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding, they have Greta VanSusterenenen (sp!) on their side!

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[Pyrrus]

umm, I wouldn't be suprised, but do you have anything to back this up?

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a little confused here if I go to google and type in Scientology or Operation Clam Bake the site comes up, I thought Google had censored it? As well I came across this interesting page during my search, it seems this has been happening to many other anti-scientology websites the link is

• http://www.thecia.net/users/rnewman/scientology/ ho me.html

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[NaDrew]

CoS can easily guarantee an easy-to-find result on any Google search for "Scientology" or "Xenu" or any number of keywords. It's all spelled out right here.
Instead, they've decided that not only must Google show their search results on top, no one else's may be shown at all.
Too bad Google didn't stand their ground. I have to admit I've lost a bit of respect for them.

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[Anonymous Coward]

Battlefield Earth was a great movie you die lots now!

Re:www.google.com's new banner?

[blibbleblobble]

What's even more amusing is that

(a) xenu have taken out 3 paid ad-word listings for scientology

(b) xenu's page is now more prominently listed than is scientology.org (especially now we've all been there and clicked on the links)

(c) the top link in the search results lists 2 google categories: scientology, and opposition to scientology

(d) The news story about censorship attempts appears on the second line of the search results, far more prominently than even the paid ads, or the top scientology.org link

Does anyone know who's paying for xenu's ad-word listings; I feel a bit bad about using up the page-displays they've paid for...

I'm a Scientologist and you're spreading Lies!

[DonkeyHote]

What you see here is nothing but lies, and more lies.
Scientology would never condone any of these tactics.
Only a non-scientologist would spread such vicious rumors. I hope they use the DCMA to get defamation removed from this site!

I will alert them at once!

DonkeyHote OTIII

Re:I'm a Scientologist and you're spreading Lies!

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously didn't read the 'Fair Game' memo they published in the 70's.

Boycott Google?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would it be worth it to boycott Google in protest of them bowing down to a group that's been clearly documented to be a fraud, a cult, and an oppressor of individual freedoms for years?

I hate scientology.

[Doctor Fishboy]

A friend's sister converted to Scientology and she promptly dated a 50 year old bloke - she was 22 at the time. Even ignoring the age difference, the sudden and radical change in her whole personality (from friendly and a good laugh to extremely insular and compulsive neurotic) scared me *a lot*.

She left the cult (whoops, I meant "religion") two years ago and with the support of her family is on the road to recovery. I don't know if her family persuaded her to leave or they did a rescue mission for her.

I don't know what she thinks of Scientology nowadays.

Definitely very creepy fuckers. Best avoided, or failing that, best viewed in a strong critical light. Are they working for your spiritual development, or are they fleecing you for all your money?

Re:I hate scientology.

[hedgefrog]

A friend's sister converted to Scientology and she promptly dated a 50 year old bloke - she was 22 at the time.

That's it when I'm 50 I'm converting!

Re:I hate scientology.

[Anonymous Coward]

I lost my copy of the green golf ball joke can anyone find it for me?

http://home.wanadoo.nl/fox-1/golfball.htm

DMCA notification

[Anonymous Coward]

As bad as the DMCA is, this notification really isn't one of its more onerous sections. The section in question established a standard procedure for removal of (claimed) copyrighted material, which would have been done pre-DMCA with the immediately filing of a lawsuit. This DMCA provision protects ISPs and sites like Google from lawsuit, which probably helps the general public get more information out. If ISPs and Google had to worry about immediate lawsuits without notification and safe harbor, they would likely allow less material on their sites.

BETA banned.google.com!

[Anonymous Coward]

Google "Banned by the DMCA" Search BETA
banned.google.com

Scientologists team up with RAMBUS, Inc.

[zapfie]

In an unprecedented move, RAMBUS, Inc. announced a planned merger with the Scientologist movement. "We invest a lot of money in protecting our ideas, and noticed a similar trend with the Scientologists. It only made sense to pool our resources." noted Tom Quinn, VP of Marketing at RAMBUS. As part of the merger, RAMBUS will drop its chip-making division, leaving them only to focus on their legal persuits. The Scientologists will continue their legal efforts to use the DMCA to erase all traces of their existance. Analysts were uncertain what to think of the merger. "What are they going to do? Make holy chips?" was one response heard.

Re:Scientologists team up with RAMBUS, Inc.

[ThePilgrim]

RAMBtolagists, as they will be know after the merger have asked me, their lawer and high priest, to inform the readers of /. that the phrase 'holy chips' is highly offencive and we will use all the powers of the law to bring down this site.

Note also that affecting our site with the notorious /. effect will be seen as a denial of service (DoS) and we will prosicute all members of /. for such actions.

We should als point out that we do not exist we have never existed and any not one linking to one of our websites will be prosicuted under the full extent of the law.

If we fail to win then we will by a law that allows us to do so. This law will be the Scientolagy Corperate Representation and Allowable Presentation (ScCRAP) Law.

You have been warned.

Re:Scientologists team up with RAMBUS, Inc.

[tomdarch]

No, they won't actually make Holy Chips(TM). Rather they will get their followers to believe that Holy Chips(TM) exist and are superior and sue people who point out that Holy Chips(TM) don't actually exist.

Also, RAMBUS employees will have to sign billion year contracts and instead of being paid, will have to pay RAMBUtology for the opportunity to work.

Re:Scientologists team up with RAMBUS, Inc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Never attribute to Malice what can be attributed to Incompitence

Your sig is pretty funny, you spelled "incompetence" wrong.
That's probably close to the definition of irony...

Re:Scientologists team up with RAMBUS, Inc.

[Anonymous Coward]

What are they going to do? Make holy chips?

Did you mean holy sheeps ?

Re:Scientologists team up with RAMBUS, Inc.

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

will have to pay RAMBUtology

Okay, now this sounds vaguely obscene, and yet strangely apropos considering the way the organizations being discussed here treat people...("RamButt-ology?")

Come on!!!

[JFMulder]

Scientology webmasters are just plain dumd. There IS a meta tag that they can add to their web page to prevent google or any other search robot to add them to their database (I don't remember the tag, but I've read about it a few days ago on the google website). Instead of whinning and bitching, why don't they just put thoses meta tags on their web page and leave the world in peace. These guys are starting to really irritate me with their abuse of every law to protect their religion.

Re:Come on!!!

[Sc00ter]

Xenu.net WANTS to be in the seach engine. They are ANTI-Scientology. The Church of Scientology is the one that's asking for it to be removed from the search listings, not xenu.net.

Re:Come on!!!

[Darkninja666]

That is NOT what they did... What they did was have the material from an OPPOSING website, a website that is not under their control and is located in another country, removed from the public domain.

Think about it...how many of us use google to find everything. And if you can't find it with google how are you suppose to find it.

Try this experiment ... go to Google and type in the search term "Scientology"...You will have to go to the 45th search result to find one that is not owned or controlled or for the Church of Scientology. Now how many times during a search have anyone looked beyond the 2nd page?


Damn, now that I've said "The Church of Scientology", their going to censor this post.

Re:Come on!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

The tag is <meta name="robots" content="noindex,follow">, but I think you're missing something here. These aren't scientology webmasters, they're scientology critics; they want to be widely listed so everyone can see the "church" for what it really is.

Re:Come on!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about it...how many of us use google to find everything. And if you can't find it with google how are you suppose to find it.

Use IXQuick or Metor MetaSearch. Xenu.net is the first link from just searching for "xenu" in IXQuick and is clearly mentioned in the first two links on Metor (which cites Google as a source?)...

One fun part of IE is the Quick Search app. Use [me|ix|g] searchterm+ to get the millions of results. Nothing on Google? So what, I'll look elsewhere. It's not the be all and end all of search engines.

Re:Come on!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you type "Scientology" in this engine, the http://www.xenu.net/ will be listed on 67th place, just after all the Scientology poisoned sites. It is not impressive at all.

Xenu used to be on the first place at the google before the cult intervened.

xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[SweenyTod]

Andreas, xenu.net's owner announced all this on the usenet group alt.religion.scientology. You can read his posting here on google (hah!), where he talks about it, and what URLs were de-listed.

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[Oink.NET]

Andreas, xenu.net's owner announced all this on the usenet group alt.religion.scientology.

Check out that thread... it tells about them scheming to get the story onto Slashdot.

> I also posted the story to Slashdot. They love this kind of
> stuff. Keep your eyes on Slashdot and lets see if they print
> it. If they do, prepare to get hit. I referenced your site
> twice, and scientology's site not at all. ;-)

Good luck, I've submitted the story three times already, Two
out of three has been rejected so far. The last one includes
the bit about DMCA though,that should set things off, I hope.. :)

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[Anonymous Coward]

What I don't undrestand is why google removed the links to his site? I can understand having to remove the cached copies of his site but how is having a link pointing to pages on his site in violation at all?

That would be like me being punished for copyright infringement every time someone asks "where can I find a book about..." and I point them to a couple books on a shelf.

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[arcade]

Hey, you're quoting me. :)

"Church of Scientology uses DMCA to force Google to remove xenu.net" was the title of my submission. ;)

Scientology, DMCA and Google are all 'hot topics' here on slashdot. How could I refrain from commenting? ;)

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[Oink.NET]

Scientology, DMCA and Google are all 'hot topics' here on slashdot. How could I refrain from commenting? ;)

Yep... it's amazing isn't it, how an otherwise mediocre story can get accepted if you know what buttons to push. Done it myself...

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[Anonymous Coward]

in this case, its not a mediocre story, but a very important and interesting one.

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[daviddennis]

I gotta tell you, this is far from a mediocre story.

They've gone after BBS sysops, they've gone after ISPs, they've gone after anyone who dares to criticise them.

They hate the truth. If you ever wind up dealing with them, well, you'll know that this is an important story indeed.

I almost lost my breakfast when I read it :-(.

D

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[DrXym]

This story deserved to be resubmitted no matter how many times someone in Slashdot rejected it.

We're talking about a bullying, sociopathic mind control cult using the DCMA to censor free speech and fair comment by its critics.

Shame on Google for kowtowing like this.

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. This is one of the most important stories
slashdot has EVER carried.
never mind the users, slashot's karma is way up
there for running this.

Re:xenu.net usenet thread about being de-listed

[John Sullivan]

What I don't undrestand is why google removed the links to his site? I can understand having to remove the cached copies of his site but how is having a link pointing to pages on his site in violation at all?

Case law. Universal vs. 2600/DeCSS. See the order, bottom of page 2, item 1c.

Umm,

[Anonymous Coward]

since when are google from "another country"??
that's just stupid.

Google's removal policy

[Oink.NET]

Check out Google's removal policy for a little more perspective (bold text is their doing, not mine):

"Google views the quality of its search results as an extremely important priority. Therefore, Google stops indexing the pages on your site only at the request of the webmaster who is responsible for those pages. This policy is necessary to ensure that pages are not inappropriately removed from our index.

"Since Google is committed to providing thorough and unbiased search results for our users, we cannot participate in the practice of censoring information on the world wide web."

Wow... I'm very surprised. Google is usually very good at practicing what they preach.

Re:Google's removal policy

[Oink.NET]

On further reading of Google's removal policy, it looks like this case is being handled similarly to requests for removal of images from servers you don't have access to. Note the DMCA in the email address, dmca-images@google.com.

Option 2: If you do not have any access to the server that hosts your image

To have an image removed from our image search service, you must provide a written communication (email or regular mail) that sets forth the items specified below. Please note that you may be liable for damages (including costs and attorneys' fees) if you materially misrepresent that you own an image when you in fact do not. Accordingly, if you are not sure whether you have the right to request removal from our image search service, we suggest that you first contact an attorney.

To expedite our ability to process your request, please use the following format (including section numbers):

1. For each image you wish to have removed from our image search service, (a) provide the exact URL for the image, and (2) indicate whether that URL is owned or operated by you.

   For example:
   http://www.google.com/press/art.gif, yes
   http://www.google.com/images/toolbar_about.gi f, no

2. Provide information reasonably sufficient for Google to contact you (email address is preferred).

3. Include the following statement: "I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that, for each of the images identified above, I am (or am authorized to act on behalf of) the copyright owner or an exclusive licensee."

4. Sign the written communication (digitally or in ink).

5. Send the written communication to either of the following addresses:

   dmca-images@google.com

   Google, Inc.
   Attn: Customer Support, Image Search Service complaints
   2400 Bayshore Pkwy
   Mountain View, CA 94043

Re:Google's removal policy

[Anonymous Coward]

send them email

Re:Google's removal policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Include the following statement: "I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that, for each of the images identified above, I am (or am authorized to act on behalf of) the copyright owner or an exclusive licensee."

Perhaps Google are smarter than we give them credit for (wouldn't be the first time...).

If the Scientologists do indeed have copyright on the content held on xenu.net, then Google will have done the right thing.

If on the other hand, the Scientologists have no copyright on the content held there, then Google are in an extreemly powerful position because:

1. Google have acted swiftly in good faith upon receipt of the letter.
2. The Scientologists have just committed purgery.

Doesn't that make Google whiter than white?

Clear this up please?

[1stflight]

I'm at a loss to understand how the US law has any sway in another country. Why didn't Xenu (sp?) just tell them to fsck off?

Re:Clear this up please?

[Misch]

I'm at a loss to understand how the US law has any sway in another country.

In this case, it doesn't. It's being used against a company in the United States (Google).

I don't think it's affecting Google in Italy, for example

Re:Clear this up please?

[Darkninja666]

They can't change the website...they are changing the Google website in the US. As we are currently the largest presence on the internet, they can do alot of damage.

Re:Clear this up please?

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, I guess that maybe explains why the link at the top of the page still works for me. Google has not removed any links in any other country? I'm not sure if this is the case? It seems so...

scientology should be illegal

[Frederic54]

I think it's time to class the scientology a "dangerous sect", like it's defined in France or other country in Europe, especially in Germany where tom cruise and travolta's movies are not really welcome...

Re:scientology should be illegal

[ShavenYak]

especially in Germany where tom cruise and travolta's movies are not really welcome...

You mean they are welcome in the US?

Re:scientology should be illegal

[he-sk]

... in France or other country in Europe, especially in Germany where tom cruise and travolta's movies are not really welcome...

Care to explain?

Re:scientology should be illegal

[ziriyab]

They're both $cientologists

Re:scientology should be illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Cruise & Travolta are members of Sc.

Re:scientology should be illegal

[connorbd]

Well... John Travolta is pretty much persona non grata these days with moviegoers since Battlefield: Earth and Swordfish, and I don't care what kind of delusional good reviews Vanilla Sky got, but Tom Cruise is becoming the new Kevin Costner.

Actually, the most annoying Scientologist in the entertainment industry right now has to be Leah Remini; she's a very talented comedienne, but she comes across as being something of a self-righteous bitch in interviews. (Of course she's something different again on the set, but that's a different story.)

/Brian

Re:scientology should be illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Moreover, at least one of them was a star actor (and very happy to be so) in a movie based on scientology, Battlefield Earth.

Re:scientology should be illegal

[he-sk]

Yes, I know that (and so is Nicole Kidman), but I live in Germany, go fairly often to the movies, and I've not heard that movies with Travolta and Cruise are generaly not very welcome.

Some (not many) people are aware that Travolta and Cruise are scientologists, that doesn't stop them from watching the flick.

Scientology

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who finds it funny that the Scientologist cult denies to the general public that they dont believe the Galactic Emperor Xenu and the body thetans (ie dead spirits of other aliens) are responsible for all the wrongs in the world. Yet if you post the relevant documentation they will sue the hell out of you for trade secret violation.

They dont even care if they have a valid claim for their suits, they just want to intimidate. Ask keith henson, he is currently in exile in canada. He did the horrible crime of posting the gps coordinates of the LA headquarters and hinting someone shoot a T"om Cruise" missle at it. He was convicted of electronic terrorism even though the posting was clearly in jest.

And dont forget poor Bob Mintons cat! Someone left the dead bugger on Bobs doorstep after they tortured it to death. Why is it that the euros see right through the scientologists, but in america most people do not?

Re:Scientology

[Anonymous Coward]

> [tip of the $cieno legal abuse iceberg snipped]
>
> Why is it that the euros see right through the scientologists, but in america most people do not?

The $cienos own Hollywood through active recruitment of rich, vapid celebrities.

Hollywood owns the U.S. Congress through a network of political donations and Congresscritters eager for attention from celebrities.

Hollywood does not own the European legislatures.

These three facts (and perhaps a fourth and fifth fact, namely the cult's track record on muckraking vs. its critics and stated policy to infiltrate governments) may have something to do with the differences in treatment of a certain UFO cult in the US versus its treatment in Europe.

Or they may not. Your call.

Re:Scientology

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why is it that the euros see right through the scientologists, but in america most people do not?"

They don't. While I believe there ARE countries to have banned the business of scientology, there are plenty of Europeans subscribing to the same crap.

Morbid fascination "forced" me to read much of the information on clambake in the past and there is mention of these things.

Regards,
Lazily Anonymous

Re:Scientology

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why is it that the euros see right through the scientologists, but in america most people do not?"

In part creeping corruption, and in part because
the reality of the larger popular culture of America ( as oppossed to significant sub-sections of it ) is that of a yahooing Philitsine cowboys.
The dominant world power usually are Barbarians
for their first few centuries.

who knows, this may be good!

[Ender Ryan]

This could be a huge step, now we have a case of the DMCA being used as a weapon against your average citizen. Xecu.net is an informative site that helps people, average people, who come into contact with the CoS.

If the EFF would get involved in this, maybe the DMCA can be ruled unconstitutional. If there's any case so far that has a chance of going that far, it's this one.

Maybe at the same time, the CoS can be exposed for what it is, a cult, and have their religion status removed by the IRS...

Am I just being too optimistic?

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[Psiren]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If it weren't for religion, the world would be a much better place. You're right though, its definately a cult. How desperate must people be to fall for this shit?

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[chez69]

Yeah, it sure would be. The poor would starve, most of the charity work done in the world would go away.

Yeah, the world sure would be a better place. Keep in mind that most religions do not try to silence critics. As a Cristian, I am not brainwashed, I am not forced to believe.

So many of you on slashdot are so intolerent of religion, yet you think that you should be able to do whatever you want.

If you won't want to believe, that's fine, that's your choice. Don't look down on the people who choose to exercise their right to believe.

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[Jumperalex]

Call this a troll call this whatever you want. I'm not an athiest, I'm an agnostic in the true spirit of its definition.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE CULTS. Scientoligy holds no unique position in cult status.

You can't use money as a differentiator because we all know that the majority, if not all, of the christian based religions in some way request a tithe. Sure some may not "demand" it but I have seen first hand through friends how they can be treated when they don't tithe as much as expected.

I admit ignorance of the monetary aspect of any other religion though I think most eastern religions don't include money in the mix, and if they happen to practice the giving up of material possesions they don't advocate giving them up in to the leaders pockets.

Or you can look at it another way. The word cult is really just a word made up by established religions to bebunk new/less popular/disagreeing religons. So rather than use a negative word like cult we can be more nuetral and say anything that a single person believes in is a religion even if they are the only one.

THEN we can differentiate between the religions that have almost obvious motives of converting everyone to their thinking and those that are tolerant, and those that require giving large sums of money to the church for it's own coffers and those that either don't ask for money at all or those that collect it and it goes to serving the needy.

I leave that final distinctions as an exorcise for the reader.

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[MegaGremlin]

If it weren't for people perverting religion for their own purposes, the world would be a much better place.

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[Lemmy Caution]

Yes, no true Scientologist would have done these things.

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[mlong]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If it weren't for religion, the world would be a much better place. You're right though, its definately a cult. How desperate must people be to fall for this shit?

And if it weren't for your stereotyping and gross-overgeneralization, the world would be a much better place. I'd hardly call scientology a religion, regardless of what they say they are.

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[Anonymous Coward]

EFF is too scared of SCN to get involved in these cases. Seriously.

Re:who knows, this may be good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on who is obeying what...

Christianity: "turn the other cheek"

If someone _obeys_ that; it precludes a lot of violence.

Islam: "slay them wherever you find them until all religion is for Allah"

They have to _disobey_ that to avoid violence.

Scientology: has nice policies for "suppressive persons (SPs)" and "flaming SPs." The GO (which is supposedly out of business... yeah right) is authorized to do black ops (torture your pets, harass you, frame you, etc.) to silence you.

They have to _disobey_ L. Ron's 'tech' (e.g. Scientologist dogma) to avoid violence.

One must realize that there's a huge difference between someone doing something evil contrary to their religion than to those doing something *because* of it.

The biggest problem...

[Sc00ter]

Scientolgy has so much money that they'll just keep going after you, keep you tied up in court, even if they lost they'll keep trying and doing more and more to either suck up all your money for layers to protect yourself, or to just drive you so crazy that you give up.

Even if the DMCA doesn't hold up in this case, they'll find some other way to drive google nuts and remove the links. They'll blame it on copyright, slander, ANYTHING just so Google has to spend money on protecting their interests..

Re:The biggest problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

To paraphrase L. Ron Hubbard, [The purpose of a lawsuit is to harass, not to win.] [Attack, Attack, Attack, never defend!]

why do they only go after google?

[marijne]

if not all of this stuff is in Google, why not also go after altavista, alsk jeeves, hotbot, etc.
why in fact not go after everyone who links to this stuff?
perhaps someone can explain this to me, because I don't get it

sound familiar?

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of science can work only within the confines of a closed group that actively suppresses nonconforming viewpoints while demanding and rewarding gung ho agreement?

Gee, that doesn't sound like any place i know of....

*ahem*

Scientology is worse than you think

[lermanet]

If you were to breed the Ferengi with the Borg you would end up with Scientology.

I am an ex member now considered an 'enemy' of scientology because my activities and statements interfere with the continued extraction of money from the targets of this scam.

The Scientology program is optimized to extract money. One of the scientology program's subroutines tells the adherents to demonize their enemies, this is a pattern of conduct for fanatic extremist groups.

Scientology maintains control of Tom Cruise, Jenna Elfman, John Travolta and the rest of their pretty faced minons by controlling the information they see. By surrounding them with scientology drones.

Scientology's history of seeking gag agreements through burdensome litigation is just a means to an end. it is no more than another effort to control the information available.

I posted the Fishman affidavit to alt.religion.scientology in 1995, and endured almost 2 million in scientology litigation and refused 3 cash offers to settle - because I refused to take the gag agreement that would prevent me from explaining to YOU how dangerous these crazy bastards are.

To Scientology gag agreements are just the cost of doing business. Part of their effort to control the flow of information.

Scientology's massive efforts to create zillions of domains pointing at their website is just another example of Information Control.

The scientology spam and sporge on alt.religion.scientology is just informtion control.

Totalitarian systems, like Stalinist communism or Scientology cannot survive when information is free.

Scientology has been waging information warfare upon the web so that they might have a better chance to capture a few children's lives with their lies.

Don't let Scientolgoy win the google war, help get the word out, cause Scientology is worse than you think

Arnaldo Lerma [ an ex - member ] http://www.lermanet.com

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[leereyno]

Go Arnie!!

Lee Reynolds

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[JMemmert]

Some additional information, if I may... *chuckles* and as this is a free system, I may. ;-)
On major danger is see in the efforts scientology puts into gagging their opposition is not that they might win... that is a well-known and agreed upon danger.
I am worried more about the effect a success would have on the "free world".

Search engines are, by nature, the major medium for information gathering.
In a /. article a few weeks back here, a successful way of internet censorship is described.
Scientology performs a similar feat... but at a much cheaper price. It they are successful, who's to keep other organizations from doing the same?
And when the data is removed form the search engine, it, on the long run, is removed from the public conscious.
The result is devastating and turns the, essentially unmoderated and free, internet into a huge heap of information noone can use, as he / she doesn't know how to get hold of the data he / she wants...

I wait for terrorist regimes requesting google to remove news agancies from their database...

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[Anonymous Coward]

Many years ago I use to hang out in #clambake on efnet irc. I mostly just sat and listened. I dont think the room was very well known because most the people there were the famous critics of the cult. I remember Henson being there alot, and you (arnie lerma) every once in a while.

The ops on the channel basically had a very open policy of who they let come in the room, this included known scientologist who logged everything in the room 24/7. The thought being they would try and use anything you said against you in the future.

You must remember I was not even a critic, as I had no first hand knowledge of the cult. But that did not stop me from getting on the shit list. After a while I noticed even when I was in different rooms and not in #clamnbake I was being followed (and I presume logged). There was not even an attempt to be stealth about it. I would /join another room at random and bam the other people whould join also. Any attempt to talk to these people would result in silence.

I eventually just said f*ck it and changed isps, changed my irc nick, and never went into #clambake again. I felt bad about it, but got sick of having to worry about every word I ever said about anything being used against me.

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[lermanet]

"And when the data is removed form the search engine, it, on the long run, is removed from the public conscious."Yup, I truly understand your point, where will it end?

Rich Leiby at the Washington post talked about this in his christmas day 1994 article which is webbed here: http://www.lermanet.com/cos/lerma.html "The Church's War Against Its Critics----and Truth"

Thats why I chose to fight them...though there seems to be a very thin market for the whole of the truth

Ferengi + Borg = Scientology
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com- mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[lermanet]

Well... Im running irc.scientologylies.com on the same machine that serves lermanet.com.. comin by.. to prevent the sort of problem you had on efnet.. I require folks to show me ID and authenticate.. and we check them out a bit to make sure they are actually doing something to expose scientology.

This allows the folks like you who want to learn more, exchange information and track the patterns of dirty tricks done by osa upon the various critics to do so, without as much worry that it will end up being used in evedence againt you in court. Nothing is perfect, we do the best we can

There is public channel there also #scientology... where we don't ID people.

There is also #altreligionscientology on Dalnet..

Arnie Lerma Ex-Clam Ferengi + Borg = Scientology
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com- mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont know if you have been to irc.slashdot.org, but their irc server software allows a +z mode that cloaks users ip addresses from one another. Of course the irc ops can still get the ip address, but it would stop users from getting each others ip addresses. Perhaps you might consider this approach as well.

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[bitrott]

Hey if Scientologists are responsible for Nichole Kidman's new bachelorhood, that I fully support the Scientologist movement, and would like to formally invite Nichole over for cocktails and a game of naked twister.

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[ziriyab]

Awesome. Keep up the good work. One question, since you were on the inside, do you think the people high up in $cientology, inc actully believe in this clam drivel, or are they just in it for the money? The former would make them more dangerous, because there's nothing more fearsome than dedicated zealots (e.g., the "christian" coalition), whereas a businessman can always be bought out with a better offer.

This whole thing kind of reminds me of the "preists" in Asimov's Foundation series: a bunch of true believers going through an algorithm oblivious to its true purpose.

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[lermanet]

yes I think they do believe ... they sure want to believe.. like the poster in Mulder's office in X files...

" Scientologists believe that most human problems can be traced to lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial people massacred by their ruler, Xenu, over 75 million years ago. These spirits attach themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world, causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their hosts ". USDJ Judge Leonie Brinkema 4 Oct 96 Memorandum Opinion, RTC vs Lerma

All the way up to and including some of their lawyers... Like Earle Cooley on the BOD of Boston University.. However... a little known fact, Scientology is directed by non scientologist lawyers at the very top - a corp entity called CST - "Church of Spiritual Technology".... I can only assume these scumbags could not resist the litigation opportunity that Hubbard's nutball tenets provided for eternal litigation { and the big fat bills ) IMO at the very top - Scientology is just a conspiracy of lawyers to perpetrate fraud upon the public...

But the leadership of the blue suited a-la-Wild Palms all believe in xenu.

Though many of them don't know it yet.. cause it's secret....

Are you thoroughly disgusted yet?

see What Judges Say on my website also see the FAQ's button on the tool bar

and again thanks to slashdot for getting xenu.net and scientology's manipulations into the public eye yet again...

Arnie Lerma

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[lermanet]

re nicole, so would I, but admitting it would be twisted into claims by Scientology that critics are stalkers....

For example, Scientology framed and convicted Kieth Henson after feigning that he scared them with a Tom Cruise Missle, after buying the local DA in Riverside county named Grover Trask

I contend that Keith was just having too much fun...his site is the operatingthetan.com site mentioned in topic

Arnie Lerma
Ferengi + Borg = Scientology
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com- mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

At the serious risk of being stamped "Flamebait" or "Troll" by moderating Kidman fans, I'm going to suggest you invest in an inflatable doll for the naked twister instead...(This IS on-topic - read on...)

One of the things Scientology "training" does is wipe out any emotional capacity one has. Have you ever watched any of the various scientologist actors/actresses? Watch their eyes. They're DEAD! The only emotional-like expression they have left to them above the nose is to squint and wrinkle their brows (which, in my opinion, looks really funny when they're supposed to be portraying anger, since it just makes them look frustrated and confused instead...) because the muscles that make those expressions are the only ones under voluntary control (much of the facial muscles involved in emotional expression up there are actually operated by involuntary reflex, apparently). Like realistic latex puppets instead of people...("John Travolta, brought to you by the creators of The Muppets[tm]...")

Somehow, a game of "naked twister" with a scientology mannequin just doesn't appeal to me...

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[connorbd]

Nicole is out, from what I understand, and given the harshness of the divorce I wouldn't be surprised if she had her very own SP order. She claims her religious beliefs are a mixture of CoS and Catholic (and one or two other influences I can't remember).

/Brian

Re: Scientology is worse than you think

[Anonymous Coward]

nicole kidman never joined or believed in the cult

They make enemies because they need enemies

[Hanno]

Are they convinced the way to expand their membership is to make enemies with... everyone?

Yes, in a way that is a good summary of their world view from _out_ perspective. They, of course, think that it's the other way round...

Scientology is, in a way, similar to a doomsday cult, although they don't believe in a soon-to-come end of the world. They believe that humanity is on a path to immediate self-destruction and that Scientology is the only way to "save" and "free" the world. They believe that they are superiour beings (members claim to have gained superhuman powers by their Sc.-training). We, the non-members, are just stupid "wogs", who can be cheated, lied to, even killed at will. Hubbard actually promised his members the superhuman power of killing such enemies by mere thought.

They also believe to be in a constant state of siege by the outside world, surrounded by enemies trying to enslave them. The outside world is seen as hostile, non-members are a grey goo of stupids and critics are evil enemies who can be attacked with every means possible. Sc.'s favourite weapon is lawyers...

Of course, Sc. sees this as pure self-defense against the hostile outside world. However, someone who dares to say something remotely critical of the cult is instantly labeled an enemy and handled as such, making the small critic an even fiercer critic...

So, yeah, Scientology is making itself is making enemies from people who just expressed doubt. And this helps Scientology, because *having* enemies is proof of their worldview and is what keeps the cult together.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[dgroskind]

They believe that humanity is on a path to immediate self-destruction ...

Using the word "believe" gives Scientology too much credit. It's like saying that McDonalds believes you deserve a break today. Their so-called beliefs are nothing more than marketing techniques.

In any case, if they wanted to foster a sense of persecution, you'd think they'd leave the pages up as evidence rather than trying to suppress them. They're behaving like any other business that faces criticism, which is further evidence that they are a business, not a religion.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah...you're only saying that cause your being controlled by xenu.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Saeger]

Depends on what definition of the word "believe" you give precedence: 1) to blindly accept as true, or 2) to hold an opinion. McDonalds doesn't religiously _believe_ you need a break, but the Scientology freaks really _believe_ that we evolved from clams (or something).

Taking the middle ground definition, to "believe" would be to take a hardline stance on some issue. Like how atheists "believe" that there is zero possibility of any higher power (which is why I'm agnostic--sitt'n on a very comfortable fence).

--

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Malleus]

Sounds like you are describing the Psi Corps from Babylon 5.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[thesolo]

They believe that they are superiour beings (members claim to have gained superhuman powers by their Sc.-training). We, the non-members, are just stupid "wogs", who can be cheated, lied to, even killed at will. Hubbard actually promised his members the superhuman power of killing such enemies by mere thought.

Exactly. Want to see how L. Ron Hubbard would deal with non-CoS members? Check out Scientology's plan for extermination. The CoS has a "tone scale", which they think everyone falls onto, and that you can predict someone's exact behavior based on where they fall on that scale. If you are a 2.0 or less on that scale, they believe you should have no civil rights at all. (Hubbard actually wrote that in one of his books, isn't that lovely?). You can read more on that scale here.

Also, you can see a copy of Scientology Related Deaths here (thanks google cache! ha!)

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Hanno]

Well, the Psi Corps is a Government agency in the world of B5. That's something totally different.

However, the show "Millenium" once had a very clever Sc.-Parody in one episode.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

Sitting on the fence is for cowards. At least us atheists have the balls to believe in nothing.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you!

This is the first time I've seen a remotely balanced and fair description of the cult. With your explanation, I can finally understand how so many people who have some modicum of sanity could be part of such a screwed-up organization!
(In case you're wondering, I am completely serious.)

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

Q. What do you get when you cross an Atheist with a Mormon?

A. Someone who knocks on your door to tell you about nothing.

or something like that.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

from your link above:

The Tone Scale was made-up by L. Ron Hubbard. Hubbard did a lot of
making-up when it came to the Tone Scale so we know it is extra-smart
and infallible. Don't think that Hubbard just sat in his bedroom and
made-up the Tone Scale, he didn't. "By various calculations about the
energy of life, by observation and by test, this Tone Scale is able to
give levels of behavior as life declines." pg.3 See! LRH used energy
of life calculations and tests and observation while inventing the Tone
Scale. And you thought he just 'thunk-up' the whole thing while
sitting in his bedroom. Obviously this serious Tone Scale inventing
business would take a laboratory. Maybe LRH had a laboratory in his
bedroom. Who knows? The important thing to understand is that the
Tone Scale couldn't be infallible if it weren't based on the accurate
energy of life calculations that Hubbard used, I imagine. Anyway, the
Tone Scale "plots the descending spiral of life from full vitality and
consciousness through half-vitality and half-consciousness down to
death." pg.3 In other words, important, not just 'thunk-up', stuff.

roflmao!

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[the_consumer]

This is spot on. Scientology is the most ingenious pyramid scheme ever conceived . The product? Paranoia. I think their entire pitch can be boiled down to "Anyone who isn't a Scientologist is evil." It's a hard sell, but once someone takes the bait there's no limit to how far you can push them. It's the ultimate in absolutist reductionism. Of course, selling the bald premise that !Scientology=evil is damn near impossible, so they have to dress up the pitch in layers of silly "mysteries", which the acolyte is hoping to have revealed to them as the payoff for the investment of their mental space in a basically tautological premise. That's why the 'cherch' gets it's panties in a twist whenever these deep dark secrets about aliens ruling the earth get published on the web. It takes time to condition even the most gullible rube into swallowing this mess as gospel. Without the proper initiation, any right thinking person will just laugh off Scientology as a bunch of sci fi nutjobs a la Heaven's Gate.

L. Ron was certainly the man, I have to wonder if he wasn't a SubGenius at heart, laughing all the way to the exalted throne of worship (oh, and the bank, too).

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Hanno]

I can finally understand how so many people who have some modicum of sanity could be part of such a screwed-up organization!

I wonder why you are so surprised.

The "us" (the englightened members of the cult) vs. "them" (the stupid, ignorant, frightning and hostile rest of the population) is a very common theme among cults and Sc. is no exception.

First, members are suckered in by promising them a way to happiness, spiritual growth and self-fulfillment. In case of Sc., another major topic they promise is business success and gaining control over others (the "wogs").

Once you are in the cult, you're slowly taught that "we", the members, are better than the rest, that you cannot trust "them", that "they" want to stop you on your way to happiness, that "they" are bad karma, evil enemies, whatever. More and more, your relations to the rest of the world are taken away and all you have is the cult.

"Why do people join a cult?" is an age-old question. It seems that many cults (and many regimes, such as the one in Nazi Germany) offer happiness to their members by taking away the everyday burden of responsibility, a burden that people give away surprisingly easy.

Most cults strip you from responsibility, decisions and the need for self-control. Others decide for you, you don't have to take responibility for your actions. You are "free" from this hostile world.

You might want to read the book "Underground" by Haruki Murakami about the sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway. The second part includes interviews with active and former members of the Aum sect, a group that turned highly intelligent science graduates into people who believed in an upcoming Armageddon and hence killed innocent bystanders using poison gas.

An interesting read that at least helped me to understand why people join cults and what they want to find there.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientology is the most ingenious pyramid scheme ever conceived. The product? Paranoia. I think their entire pitch can be boiled down to "Anyone who isn't a Scientologist is evil." It's a hard sell, but once someone takes the bait there's no limit to how far you can push them.

Hey, this is the best summary of Scientology I have read so far...

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Colin Bayer]

It's like saying that McDonalds believes you deserve a break today.

You mean Ronald lied to me? That Goddamned yellow-and-red bastard!

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

Q. What happens when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with a Hell's Angel's Biker?

A. Twenty years from now, someone knocks on your door and tells you to fuck off.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Craig Davison]

Atheism is a non-belief, not "belief of nothing". Yes, there is a difference.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[issachar]

Atheism is a non-belief, not "belief of nothing". Yes, there is a difference.

BZZT! WRONG!

Non-belief is agnosticism. As in, "I do not know that there is a God, neither do I know that there is not a God".

Atheism is the specific belief that God definately does not exist. As in "I know that God does not exist".

This means that agnosticism is a intellectual stance, while atheism is a faith. (Because believing something without positive proof requires a leap of faith).

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Queer Boy]

The "us" (the englightened members of the cult) vs. "them" (the stupid, ignorant, frightning and hostile rest of the population) is a very common theme among cults and Sc. is no exception.

Me vs. You is the thought behind any prejudice. It's not that other people are different, it's the thought that "I" am perfect, and "You" are not like "Me", therefore, there must be something wrong with "You" because there's nothing wrong with "Me". To avoid any sort of self-appraisal, all time and effort must be directed towards attacking those who are different, therefore "I" can take the focus off of "myself".

Yes, it's a very sad, sorry, shallow view, and it only takes a few moments to realise how many people you run into that are exactly this way (or realise that you might be this way, admittedly or not).

Really, that way of thinking is proof that there's no such thing as evolution. :-)

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[martyn s]

I don't have any positive proof that pink glowing bunnies do not appear in nature. Yet I believe it. In fact, I believe in quite strongly. An atheist treats God like a naturally occurring pink glowing bunny. I don't have any *proof* it doesn't exist, since such proof is impossible. An agnostic believes it is impossible to know whether God exists (like an atheist) so it is not worth it to bother thinking about it, and therefore takes no stance one way or another (not like an atheist). "Agnostic" comes from the root gno which means knowledge, like "cognitive". Agnostics and atheists are similar in many ways, but I think the parent post was correct.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[sansoo]

"Atheism is the specific belief that God definately does not exist. As in "I know that God does not exist".
Actually, this insistence that assertions about the universe can be made with certainty is a sign that you've fallen for the fundamentalist claim that such things "can be known beyond the shadow of a doubt" as ol' Grandpa used to say. What he really meant was that it made him uncomfortable to consider the possibility that he was wrong. There is no sasquatch. But I could be wrong. There are black holes. I could be wrong. There is no Zeus. I could be wrong. To deny uncertainty is merely to deny the nature of the world. Only tautologies (like arithmetic) are certain. Anything I say could be wrong, but most of my beliefs are very likely. Only the ones which I do not consider *very* likely do I normally refer to as uncertain (for me). When you walk about expressing routine doubt as to the existence of Zeus, I shall do the same for Yahweh. Some folks are genuinely undecided on this issue; they are true agnostics. But to claim to be agnostic because you might be wrong is to accept the religious belief that emotional certitude means that one cannot be wrong.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

fool.

why is it that people think evolution is only good? look to a friend ro relitive dieing of cancer, that is as much evolution as if you were to grow another finger.

The scientologist (if viewd as an evloutionary step) would be like a creature evolved from a failed mutation (unless they succeed in becomming the more successfull "species") kinda like you dont see dinos about anymore. evolution selected them out.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Capsaicin]

which is why I'm agnostic--sitt'n on a very comfortable fence

it is a popular misconception that agnostics sit on the fence. in point of fact agnosticims is the postition that the existence or non-existence of god is necessarily unknowable (a {negation} - gnosis {knowledge}). many atheists, myself included, are agnostic.

i am agnostic insofar as i accept that the non-existence of a non-existing thing cannot be logically proven. this being the case i cannot prove the that god does not exist. (it being, in the absence of any empirical evidence whatsoever, entirely a matter for logic). note however, that i don't think that god is in any way unique in this regard among the possible set of non-existing objects, which leads me to the next point.

i am an atheist insofar as i believe that the onus of proof lies with the party that wishes to prove the existence of the putatively non-existent thing. given no-one has proven, to my satisfaction the existence of god, i do not believe god exists. it is a misrepresentation of my position as an atheist to say that i believe there is 'zero possibility of any higher power.' Rather non-existence is the null hypothesis, and god, just like the undetectible air-breathing flying fish which possibly fill the room you are in, is held not to exist until it be proven otherwise.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[issachar]

well if you want to you can say that atheism is really agnosticism, but it's just word games.

Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. Plain and simple. As such it requires a leap of faith.

Belief in the existence of God also requires a leap of faith.

Only the assertion that one does not know whether or not God exists requires no leap of faith.

I mean really... how hard is this concept?

If you want to be an atheist, then be one. But don't pussy foot around it and pretend that you're not making a leap of faith on the issue.

.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[Proc6]

Let's just all go by the dictionary, it speaks pretty clearly.

agnostic
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

atheist

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

So yea, there is a difference.

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[dgroskind]

If I may jump in late into this discussion...

The definition you cite shows the fundamental problem with the agnostic position.

If it is impossible to know whether there is a God, then it is because God has made it impossible to know there is a God.

If God exists, why would he make it impossible to know He exists?

Stated a bit more formally: If God exists, it must be possible to know He exists. Therefore, if it is impossible to know whether God exists then He does not exist. QED

Re:They make enemies because they need enemies

[DarkKnightRadick]

Hubbard actually promised his members Okay, but didn't Hubbard write Dianetics as an answer to a bar bet which in effect makes Scientology nothing more then a joke?

So how long...

[pongo000]

...before Operation Clambake is censored into oblivion?

Re:So how long...

[pongo000]

(Accidently hit the Submit button before I was through!)

My thought continues:

Isn't this the reason why distributed networks like Freenet and the like exist? Wouldn't this material be better "hosted" on a distributed network that isn't subject to legal threats?

I'm sure there are mirrors of the offending pages that have been censored by Google...maybe these need to be archived for posterity on Freenet!

Re:So how long...

[Placido]

Yeah but the problem is that Scientology is INDIRECTLY targeting the content. By taking the search engine (the middle man) out of the loop they can seriously slow and damage the spread of anti-scientology information.

As much as I hate what they have done, it is very sound battle tactics. The best response is twofold.
1. Defend - submit a counter-claim, get xenu listed again.
2. Protect - Spread the information over a wider base so that it's harder for similar tactics to work again. (Also if possible challenge the DMCA to prevent it from happening again)

There is the third option Attack but that requires lots of money and effort for a sustained campaign.

Re:So how long...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or even get a spamhaus to send out the material in a bulk email. That might even make the CoS do us a favour and attach the spammers.

Re:So how long...

[cduffy]

Incidentally, there already are mirrors of this stuff hosted on Freenet, last I know. It may not be well-maintained (in which it may have fallen off the network in not frequently viewed)... but last I knew, it was there.

Let's Nuke The Bastards!

[Archie Steel]

Note to Scientology Lawyers: I did not explicitly specify which bastards I advocate nuking of. For all you know, the nukification I am endorsing could be the one of three-legged peruvian llamas (oh, how I hate these) and not at all the leaders of the IMO controversial and IMO dangerous cult full of IMO manipulative IMO crooks who IMO abuse the weak-minded by syphoning out their cash (IMHO) and producing god-awful films with stars who manage to IMO ruin their career twice. By assuming that the bastards I am referring to are representatives from the Church of Violentology...er...Scientology (great, now Steve Jackson Games' lawyers will be going after me, too!), you are setting up yourselves to be sued by your own employers for libel.

Seriously, someone should firebomb the Celebrity Center (and by that I could mean Kelly Preston's navel, or John Travolta's ego - hey, you can't physically harm an ego!

IMHO, of course.

Re:Let's Nuke The Bastards!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not DoS them?

Great!

[BlackGriffen]

Now the DMCA is being abused by a bunch of religious wackos! The worst part is, assuming that xenu.net is violating copyright (which I doubt), what the wackos have done is legal. Check out this paragraph from the DMCA:
(From section 512)

`(d) INFORMATION LOCATION TOOLS- A service provider shall not be liable for monetary relief, or, except as provided in subsection (j), for injunctive or other equitable relief, for infringement of copyright by reason of the provider referring or linking users to an online location containing infringing material or infringing activity, by using information location tools, including a directory, index, reference, pointer, or hypertext link, if the service provider--

`(1)(A) does not have actual knowledge that the material or activity is infringing;

`(B) in the absence of such actual knowledge, is not aware of facts or circumstances from which infringing activity is apparent; or

`(C) upon obtaining such knowledge or awareness, acts expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material;

`(2) does not receive a financial benefit directly attributable to the infringing activity, in a case in which the service provider has the right and ability to control such activity; and

`(3) upon notification of claimed infringement as described in subsection (c)(3), responds expeditiously to remove, or disable access to, the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity, except that, for purposes of this paragraph, the information described in subsection (c)(3)(A)(iii) shall be identification of the reference or link, to material or activity claimed to be infringing, that is to be removed or access to which is to be disabled, and information reasonably sufficient to permit the service provider to locate that reference or link.

Pay special attention to subsection `(3). So even linking to copyright infringing material is illegal?!? wtf were those wackos who wrote this bill thinking? This is a serious freedom of speech violation (since software is, after all, speech, and links are just software written in a scripting language). The sooner that abomination of a law gets repealed, the better.

In this instance, here's what xenu.net should do: register a new, and temporary, domain name. The scientologists will have conniptions hunting down his new domain names, he'll have to pay less than lawyer fees.

I wonder if I should become a sci fi author and start my own relition?

BlackGriffen

Re:Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey now your insulting the religious wackos. Even the wackos don't consider Scientology a religion. Of course religious wackos don't consider any religion but their own a religion but that's another issue.

Scientelogy

[Anonymous Coward]

was n't it founded by L RON hubbard? Geesh...what weirdos I am glad only tom cruise and john Travolta subscribe to them

Re:Scientelogy

[Anonymous Coward]

& Jenna Elfman, & the lady who does the voice of Bart Simpson, also i think i remember reading Isaac Hayes is a member, Lisa Marie Presley, Nicole Kidman, Juliette Lewis, Kirsite Alley, Priscilla Presley.

sad isnt it?

Opening a can of censorship worms.

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Google realize that by censoring one site
on the basis of content, they must now monitor
every site they index/cache for compliance with
all local laws in every nation that Google is
accessible from?

If Google does contend that they delisted Xenu.net
for "google-bombing", then I expect Scientology.com
and its sibling sites delisted for the same practice.

On another note: Anybody else notice that Google
hasn't released a press statement yet?

http://www.whitehatresearch.net -- Its what's for dinner.

Perhaps they should be reminded?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps we should write emails to Google reminding them of their good practices in the past, and how completely inappropriate this current fiasco is.

Ashamed of Google

[Anonymous Coward]

Before hearing about this I had alot of respect for google. Seeing them roll over like this makes me sick. It is suicide for a search engine to agree to not link to a site based upon a mere allegation of a well known abuser of the court system.

Question

[Glanz]

Is Ballmer a Scientologist? ... and Gates? LOL If not they should be.
This reminds me of the longstanding and ongoingOpenSource/FreeSoft/Cancer vs. Closed code/M$, FatBankers-in-suits vs.everyone else, freedom of thought and expression vs. just about every religion ever created by delusory schizo prophets and enlightened ones, law vs. justice, freedom vs. "I am the law" debate.

Scientology, the money-making cult

[cscx]

The original web page in question, found at http://xenu.xtdnet.nl/ is entitled "Support the Dutch Action against the Church of $cientology." Put that with the fact that the information is supplied in a downloadable tarball, and, well, this guy has got to be a faithful Slashdot reader.

Then again, what more would you expect from an organization with figures like John Travolta and Tom Cruise...

Defamation laws.

[ghack]

Things like this shouldnt happen - and this is yet another reason why the DMCA is bad. you should be able to defame anyone you want - but the scientologists are just pissed because they are the ones being defamed.

If this was a PRO-scientologist site, would they have threatened it, even if it had the same material? Absolutely not! They would have probably linked to it!

Scientology is the enemy of freedom - but with all the movie stars that are members of the "church" that make MPAA films, we already new that.

Re:Defamation laws.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, yes, the Scientologists would go after a pro-Scientology site if it contained upper-level (OT-level) information. Anyone with a "pro-Scientology" site which contained such information would be quickly branded an "anti-Scientologist" among Scientologists.

Scientologists are terribly serious about maintaining the secrecy of upper-level materials.

If you study the behavior of Scientologists closely, their really blatant activities target criticism which includes references to upper-level materials. You can badmouth Scientology all you want, but once you involve upper-level materials, expect the threats to come full force.

Then again, if your intent is to poke fun at Scientology, there is plenty of material which isn't protected as a "trade secret", but which surpasses even the trade secret material in terms of "weird". Grab a copy of one of the more recent Research and Discovery volumes, for example, for some really bizarre information.

Re:*mumble* On fscking time.

[Anonymous Coward]

On fscking time . . . Kudos til Michael for . . .

I wonder whip they rejected glop story. Weird.

Pathetic

[cs668]

How can a person even want to be a part of a Religion( Business ) that is so pathetic that it doesn't want people to learn about it.

Oh thats right in order to be a true believer I have to spend $$$$$

Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, Walt Disney is cryogenically frozen

Re:Your sig

[Archie Steel]

All right, this is off-topic (unless we also believe the rumors that L. Ron Hubbard has been put on ice himself) but Walt Disney was not cryogenically frozen. He was cremated. Here is the link to his death certificate.

It's a strange world....

[muffen]

I don't get it.

Here's a whois from xenu.net
Administrative Contact, Billing Contact: Operation Clambake Aardalsgata 5 N-4014 Stavanger Norway

We all know that the DMCA does NOT apply in Norway. Therefore, xenu.net cannot be shut down. I guess the stupid Scientology church knows this, so they went after the search-engines.

Now, if google wants to remove this page from their database, they should remove ALL pages that contain anything that breaks the DMCA.

A search on "DeCSS" on google gives several hundred results, here are the first ones:

Gallery of CSS Descramblers

DeCSS for Linux and DVD

Pigdog Journal - DeCSS Distribution Center

Basically, my point is that this is completly and utterly rediciolous. Google know's that DeCSS is illegal in the US, yet they have hundreds of pages with DeCSS in their database?? Either they religiously remove all pages that contains something that breaks the DMCA (wouldn't be much left), or they leave them ALL in there. Alternatively, they fight because it is not up to them to stop pages from having illegal material. I used to like google, even installed their toolbar. However, after seeing that they give in to threats without even trying to fight, the google toolbar is gone from my browser. I think I'm gonna see how good Yahoo is nowadays.

Re:It's a strange world....

[kindbud]

However, after seeing that they give in to threats without even trying to fight, the google toolbar is gone from my browser.

My, my, look at the influence our reactionary government has on the kids these days. He's gonna grow up to be just like Dubya. His daddy must be so proud.

I think I'm gonna see how good Yahoo is nowadays.

Far worse. Google is the best thing going.

Re:It's a strange world....

[BAKup]

Hey, didn't you know Yahoo uses Google for it's search engine?

Better find something else.

Re:It's a strange world....

[CoreDump]

No, you missed the point. Google is *not* required or obligate to remove any links pointing to DeCSS unless they are served with notification to do so. Which so far they haven't. The CoS ( Cocks of Scientology ) have decided that this wonderful new law lets them harrass third parties, and because the law is so horribly vague, it does let them get away with it.

This is not self censorship, this is Google acting in accordance with the DMCA upon receiving notification of the alleged violation.

Re:It's a strange world....

[Steve525]

Google probably has no choice. They were served with a notice, and the way the laws are written they did what they probably had to do. The only other option for Google is to fight it. Given how successful Scientology's lawyers were with Keith Henson, I'm not sure Google would win.

The difference between this and the other violations is that Google (to my knowledge) hasn't been served with a notice about all the DeCSS sites, etc. However, this does set a very dangerous precident. Everyone who wants something censored could threaten Google. If that happens, Google may have to fight it at some point.

Re:It's a strange world....

[muffen]

My, my, look at the influence our reactionary government has on the kids these days. He's gonna grow up to be just like Dubya. His daddy must be so proud.

Not that I have a clue who "Dubya" is... but I have to say that we should all do what we can. Doing something is better than doing nothing.

Re:It's a strange world....

[Sloppy]

Now, if google wants to remove this page from their database, they should remove ALL pages that contain anything that breaks the DMCA.

I think you are extremely confused. DMCA is a big law. The stuff that makes DeCSS "illegal" is a completely different area of DMCA than the notification thing that is being used against Google here. Google didn't "break the DMCA"; they are simply having a process described in DMCA, used against them.

The whole point of the notification idea (which I am generally in favor of) is to keep content-neutral organizations like Googe, out of the police business, so that they don't have to remove anything from their database unless they are explicitly told to.

It isn't Google's job to remove DeCSS or Scientology secrets or anything else from their database, unless they have received a DMCA notification specifically regarding that content.

What Google should do, IMHO, is retaliate against DMCA attacks against them. Scientology Inc wants to remove cached xenu.net content from Google's database? Fine. Comply to the letter. But then Scientology Inc is an enemy, and any searches on Scientology-related words return links to xenu.net as link #1. Regrettably, with no caching -- where the high ranking is the result of special-case logic, rather than Google's processing of their cache. You cheat and try to willfully subvert Google to cause their service to become less valuable and thereby cause Google stockholders to lose money, then you get a pyrhic victory. Maybe the next asshole will think twice.

Slashdot (the site you're at right now) did a great job when Scientology came after them. The cult got Slashdot to delete one post that exposed part of them, and then got a whole story full of anti-Scientology links and content put up in retaliation. It was beautiful!

Re:It's a strange world....

[cduffy]

"Dubya" is George W. Bush. The point is that reacting without thinking leads to some really stupid stuff.

Do something about Scientology's tactics

[Xentax]

Isn't Barratry a crime, at least in some districts?

What we need is a properly-motivated DA in such a district -- they can track down people harassed by Scientology's sharks^H^H^H^H^H^Hlawyers, and bring barratry charges against them.

It might not do much more than "send a message", but I would think if done properly, and with accompanying civil suits (again, the trick is to find sufficient funding to take the Scientology teams on), people could start to put the hurt back on this cult.

Xentax

Re:Do something about Scientology's tactics

[Anonymous Coward]

for more about barratry, see the classic bernard shifman is a moron spammer.

Do-it yourself counter-notification letter...

[-stax]

here you will find a counter-response letter, which was penned for just this use by Dave Touretzky

Re:Do-it yourself counter-notification letter...

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's the Karma police.
This was the most informative post of this discussion.
-Rob

I fully support a One China Policy.
We should help Taiwan reclaim the mainland.

I think...

[eaeolian]

Dubya forgot to mention one member of his "Axis of Evil".

Re:I think...

[sharkey]

Dubya forgot to mention one member of his "Axis of Evil".

Google? Despite this, it's still the best search engine for my needs today.

Re:I think...

[daviddennis]

I think he was referring to Scientology.

In which case, I agree.

D

Workaround

[russotto]

Google should redirect all searches which would bring up the DMCA-banned pages to a copy of the DMCA notification (which lists all the banned URLs).

Could it really happen?

[gomerbud]

Let's see... If someone in this thread links to a page thats super critical of scientology, could the scientologists go after slashdot too?

Re:Could it really happen?

[he-sk]

Didn't that already happen here:Scientologists Force Comment Off Slashdot ?

Slashdot finishes what Google started

[Kieckerjan]

Because of the /. effect xenu.net is now effectively unreachable. Way to go.

I used to be a Scientologist

[leereyno]

Scientology is not a religion. Scientology is a mind control cult with the purpose of conning people out of large sums of money, enslaving them if possible, and of course world domination.

I was a scientologist for almost eight years and worked out in LA at "Big Blue." This complex used to be the Cedars of Sinai hospital but was purchased by Hubbard and company back in the 1970's. It is where ASHO, AOLA, and the LA orgs are, as well as a good portion of OSA. They've remodeled most everything there so some things might have changed since then.

In any case I am here to tell anyone who will listen that Scientology is evil. I don't make that kind of a claim lightly. Scientology is a cult made up of people who have ceased to think for themselves and are no longer acting in their own best interest but are instead being manipulated and coerced into living for the cult, to their own detriment. There are so many things that Scientology does that are wrong that it is difficult to know where to begin in detailing them all. Scientology is to me a weird conglomeration of Nazi-esque nonsense, corporate abuse of the public trust, and organized crime.

Others whose words are far better than mine have already detailed the nature of Scintology's evil far better than I can at 7 am. The link below points to a website that has just about every significant book written that exposes the evil nature of scientology:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/

I applaud the owner of this site for having the courage to make a stand against one of the most evil organizations of our time.

Lee Reynolds

Re:I used to be a Scientologist

[Arcturax]

I'm surprised you only called them a cult. They are more than a cult, they are a full blown organized crime syndicate.

Re:I used to be a Scientologist

[Anonymous Coward]

MODS - bump up the parent. Some clam has gotten mod points and used them to knock down this post - If we can't prevent $cientology censorship elsewhere, at least we can do it on /.

Re:I used to be a Scientologist

[lermanet]

Speaking of dead bodies... I was rceently contacted by a lady that used to be high up in Scientology in Clearwater who had read this list of bizzare deaths at thier headquarters.

http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/deaths/reports/00-su icide-reports-index.html#add She told me we only knew about the tip of the iceberg.

All folks have to do to defeat scientology and send it to the scarp yard of history is to keep on getting the word out,

Arnie Lerma
Ferengi + Borg = Scientology
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com- mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Re:I used to be a Scientologist

[Anonymous Coward]

For books I can also recommend Messiah or Madman by B Corydon. Amazon.com (with sample pages) or Amazon.co.uk

Excellent book by a former member. I thought Hubbard was just a crook but he wasn't - he was actually barking mad schizoid and should have been put in a psychiatric hospital. The CofF is a godless religion.

Re:I used to be a Scientologist

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientology is not a religion. Scientology is a mind control cult with the purpose of conning people out of large sums of money, enslaving them if possible, and of course world domination.

:%s/Scientology/Christianity/g

Re:I used to be a Scientologist

[theonetruekeebler]

Uh huh. And when you quit going to church, how many tens of thousands of dollars did your former congregation threaten to sue you for? How many non-disclosure agreements did you have to sign on your way out the door?

Oh, and how many of your family members did they order never to speak to you again under threat of excommunication and other punishments?

pro-scientology?

[arakis]

I have seen many horror stories over the years regarding $cientology and I am a complete opponent of their organization. The thing that I haven't really seen come up in all this is any real fact-based (with references) pro-$cientoloy position. Is this because nothing pro-scientology exists? Are the people at the "church" only capable of threats and not responding to some of these criticisms? If so, why? I'm not saying that every religion must justify itself, but when it gets to the point of threats and other manipulations of people... the whole thing seems to just beg the question.

If you need a cult, check out subgenius (I'm not a memeber, just an observer). At least they have a guarantee on your money!

Re:pro-scientology?

[Carnivore24]

I used to read the anti-scientology newsgroups from time to time. Now and then someone claiming they were a scientologist would come in and discuss Xenu or auditing. Not too many were there though. I think the "true" scientologists are told to stay quiet about their religion. Think about it, if someone went on there that was a supporter and started talking about Xenu and OT levels, people inside the religion might start giving them problems....

Re:pro-scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientologists who reach the upper levels are required to assure that they will maintain the secrecy of the materials in question. They cannot possibly go to a public forum and discuss such things without violating that agreement and losing any further access to such materials. This is tantamount to excommunication. Thus, you'll only find detractors discussing such things.

I've offered pro-Scientology viewpoints in various forums over time, and, really, what's the point? It never actually accomplishes anything, other than stirring up the hornets' nest.

FWIW, while I can offer pro-Scientology arguments, I do not agree with the recent use of that California law (the "Tom Cruise missile" thing). Then again, I can offer pro-America arguments, but there's tons of stuff I don't agree with that "America" has done and continues to do.

Re:pro-scientology?

[Carnivore24]

Have any links on this California Law/Tom Cruise missile thing?? Im a little interested in that because I think Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman dropped out of Scientology a while back...

Re:pro-scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. As far as I know, Tom is still in, and Nicole is out, but that's just the rumor I've heard.

Re:pro-scientology?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there anything positive that I, a scientology outsider with direct experience with that cult, can see?

Sure. They speak well. Oh, and those who have embraced their training never have to feel sorry for anything they do or say, particularly to wogs like us.

What? That doesn't sound like a good thing to you? Oh, that's probably because you have a conscience. What little conscience they had has been trained out of them. It's part of their training.

I met a few scientologists last year, through a mutual interest. While I tried to have a normal relationship with them, they only served to demonstrate that all of the ills spoken of scientology are indeed well founded.

Let's see:

1. They were paranoid in the extreme. They constantly asked my other friends what I had "said about them"...and this was soon after we met over drinks. This behavior continued until I left them behind.
   
   
2. They were utterly incoherent in any kind of discourse. When their logic was questioned, or their facts challenged, their demeanor would completely disolve and they would be reduced to screaming and yelling fits.
   
   
3. The tried to wrap themselves into my life wherever they could. When I resisted, they once again fell into the screaming and yelling rages listed above.
   
   
4. When I did make the mistake of mentioning some personal and private issues to them, it was quickly used against me. They went as far as to threaten "revealing my secret" to others in my social circle. It was nasty and manipulative, so of course I told my real friends my revelation myself. It was no big thing, but boy the Ronbots were pissed.
   
   
5. They thought nothing of hurting others, as long as it got them what they wanted. Oh, they would always be quick to say that such actions were wrong, but they consistently were the most selfish, nasty, and hateful people I've ever seen.
   
   
6. When they found people who gladly did as they wanted to do, they praised them as independant thinkers. When I pointed out that these people following their lead so blindly was in fact the antithesis of independant thought, I was greeted to more violent babbling, as mentioned above.
   

I could go on...and on...and on. Suffice it to say that I finally had enough and broke of my ties with those people. I can't say that I miss them. Sadly, they got what they wanted. Some of my other acquaintances have since been sucked into the cult. Oh, well. Xenu apparently has a strong power over the weak of mind.

IMHO, these people need to be stopped at ALL COSTS. It is not a religion; it's a cult. They need to be elliminated. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Re:pro-scientology?

[Derleth]

You cannot find any rational defense of Scientology because there isn't a rational defense of Scientology. It is very much like Nazism: Only charlatans and loonies are in favor of it, and they are in no position to give fact-based reviews.

All of the facts say one thing: Scientology is an evil cult that was started by a genuine madman. It has killed before, repeatedly, and it will kill again if it gets the chance. The people who run xenu.net are trying to deny it that chance. They are very successful: Thousands of people know the truth about Xenu, Scientology, and Hubbard because of Operation Clambake. That is why Scientology is trying so hard to destroy it.

Scientology and the Net

[fathead01]

Scientology will try every trick it can to gain control of information about it. Even where I hang out there is this Scientology Bitch who will nag every web local site owner about every dot and every slash, suggesting new wordings for everything.

Cute.

Google blows chunks anyway as an unworthy successor to Altavista.

banned by google?

[Anonymous Coward]

damn, there goes my karma-whoring chance to post the link to the google cache of xenu.net since it's /.'ed beyond belief..

bollocks.

Fight back!

[b1t r0t]

Add a link like this one to your home page!

<A HREF="http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/21/ 0453200">The Truth About Scientology</A&gt

Help Spread the Links (Co$ doesnt want you to see)

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got a reply from Google (they claim it was difficult to find my contact info. Right...) where they inform me that Operation Clambake is removed from Google because of a DMCA notification from the cult. The complaint mentions a ridiculous list of addresses which successfully removes the whole site from their engine. To get OC back we have to counter the complaint. Since the complaint is making claims of ownership of pages clearly not owned by the cult, this could hurt the cult only. But this means OC will have to follow this up with a US lawyer, which might be difficult and expensive. Here's what I received from Google today: [START QUOTE FROM GOOGLE REPLY] We removed certain specific URLs in response to a notification submitted by the Religious Technology Center and Bridge Publications under section 512(c)(3) of the the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA). Had we not removed these URLs, we would be subject to a claim for copyright infringement, regardless of its merits. The URLs included in that notification are attached to this email. Pursuant to sections 512(g)(2) and (3) of the DMCA, you have the ability to submit a counter notification, in which event we can reinstate the material. As stated in section 512(g) (3), the contents of this notification must include the following: (A) A physical or electronic signature of the subscriber. (B) Identification of the material that has been removed or to which access has been disabled and the location at which the material appeared before it was removed or access to it was disabled. (C) A statement under penalty of perjury that the subscriber has a good faith belief that the material was removed or disabled as a result of mistake or misidentification of the material to be removed or disabled. (D) The subscriber's name, address, and telephone number, and a statement that the subscriber consents to the jurisdiction of Federal District Court for the judicial district in which the address is located, or if the subscriber's address is outside of the United States, for any judicial district in which the service provider may be found, and that the subscriber will accept service of process from the person who provided notification under subsection (c)(1)(C) or an agent of such person. Here are the urls mentioned in the complaint that I believe are related to your site:

• www.xenu.net/
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/index.h tml
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/prop1.h tml
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/prop2.h tml
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/prop3.h tml
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/prop4.h tml
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/prop5.h tml
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/prop6.h tm
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/clan-images.html
• www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/lisas_case_sup.htm l
• www.xenu.net/archive/events/
• www.xenu.net/archive/events/lisa_mcpherson/
• www.xenu.net/archive/disk/
• www.xenu.net/archive/disk/enemy/
• www.xenu.net/archive/disk/enemy/da.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/disk/enemy/targets.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/disk/archive/grd_chrt.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/disk/OTIII/
• www.xenu.net/archive/hubbandcw/
• www.xenu.net/archive/greece/
• www.xenu.net/archive/HCOB/FU-HCOB-630511.html
• www.xenu.net/archive/HCOB/FU-HCOB-630714.html
• www.xenu.net/archive/HCOB/FU-HCOB-610619.html
• www.xenu.net/archive/enemy_names/
• www.xenu.net/archive/enemy_names/dead_agenting.htm l
• www.xenu.net/archive/enemy_names/targets.html
• www.xenu.net/archive/tonelevel.html
• www.xenu.net/archive/grade_chart.html
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenusw.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenunl.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenufr.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenufi.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuno.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuge.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuaf.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuru-k.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuheb.htm
• www.xenu.net/archive/so/
• www.clambake.org/
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/ind ex.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/pro p1.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/pro p2.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/pro p3.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/pro p4.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/pro p5.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/propaganda/pro p6.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/clan-images.ht ml
• www.clambake.org/archive/photoalbum/lisas_case_sup .html
• www.clambake.org/archive/events/
• www.clambake.org/archive/events/lisa_mcpherson/
• www.clambake.org/archive/disk/
• www.clambake.org/archive/disk/enemy/
• www.clambake.org/archive/disk/enemy/da.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/disk/enemy/targets.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/disk/archive/grd_chrt.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/disk/OTIII/
• www.clambake.org/archive/hubbandcw/
• www.clambake.org/archive/greece/
• www.clambake.org/archive/HCOB/FU-HCOB-630511.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/HCOB/FU-HCOB-630714.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/HCOB/FU-HCOB-610619.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/enemy_names/
• www.clambake.org/archive/enemy_names/dead_agenting .html
• www.clambake.org/archive/enemy_names/targets.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/tonelevel.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/grade_chart.html
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenusw.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenunl.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenufr.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenufi.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenuno.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenuge.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenuaf.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenuru-k.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/leaflet/xenuheb.htm
• www.clambake.org/archive/so/

Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Arcturax]

Really, take a look at Xenu.net and all the other pages out there which detail the stuff they do.

Just like Al Qaida they:

- Go after young impressionable people and turn them into zealots.
- Have armed camps and compounds (See Gold Base)
- Abuse the law and system as much as they can
- Attack and threaten anyone who speaks out against them or tries to leave the organization
- Meddle and infiltrate the government of their hosting countries. The Taliban in Afghanistan were also Al Qaida people to a large extent. The same is happening here, just look at the DA in California who went after Henson. Look at Clearwater Florida.

If we were really running a fully serious war on terrorism, we would have a couple of B1-B's level Gold base and the Navy would blow the Free Winds out of the fucking water. The FBI and CIA would fall upon Clearwater and put the town under martial law until they had rooted out the Scientologists there.

I think countries like Germany, Canada, France, and especially any Islamic countries should turn around and point a finger at the US and say, "Look, before you go waging war in other countries, why don't you take care of your own criminal organizations similar to Al Qaida?"

Really? Why aren't we looking as much into them as we are into Al Qaida? Especially after the stunt they pulled at Ground Zero after the attacks, trying to recruit by posing as medical workers.

I think its time that Bush and Co. took a look at home as much as they are abroad.

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Noobie]

Really? Why aren't we looking as much into them as we are into Al Qaida? Especially after the stunt they pulled at Ground Zero after the attacks, trying to recruit by posing as medical workers.

They were recruiting at Ground Zero? Does somebody have a link to this news story?

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Misch]

I think its time that Bush and Co. took a look at home as much as they are abroad.

All things considered, I wish they would look more at everything around them, like umm... you know... things outside of washington...

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Anonymous Coward]

You left out one very important detail.

As cancerous as Scientology is in that it destroys people to the core mentally, emotionally and monetarily, they don't "openly" use guns, grenades and high explosives buried in layers of shrapnel. They use lawyers and folding-table psychologists.

That's a very important difference where the law is concerned.

Regards,
Lazy

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Anonymous Coward]

> I think its time that Bush and Co. took a look at home as much as they are abroad.

Amen, amen, amen.

I love "Co$ = American Al-Q" meme and am gonna start propagating the fuck out of it.

Other memes - we need to propagate the $cieno's "Clear the Planet" meme. When writing Congress, contrast the Co$'s writings with Christianity - Ashcroft and Bush are both Christians, and whatever opinions you may have about their religion, it means they're more likely to realize the evil of Co$ when it's painted in this light.

(And as a side note, they're far less beholden to Hollywood than the Clinton administration. Use that too.)

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Arcturax]

Here is an article about their interference at ground zero.
http://cisar.org/010919a.htm

They also have been posing as mental health professionals:

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/02/08/Worldandnation /S cientology_reaches_o.shtml

or from their OWN MOUTHS here
http://www.scientology.org/message/Scientolo gy-vol unteer-ministers.htm

They claim to have been volunteering, but they were actually recruiting.

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Arcturax]

Despite that they don't openly use guns and grenades, they still have managed to kill a lot of people, emotionally if not physically.

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[AntiNorm]

Especially after the stunt they pulled at Ground Zero after the attacks, trying to recruit by posing as medical workers

Please tell me you're kidding...

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Anonymous Coward]

This was reported on xenu.net about a week after 9/11. According to the article fox news was scrolling a scientology number across the bottom of the screen as some kind of mental health hotline" for about two hours before they were notified that it was a Scientology number.

Then, according to xenu.net, scientologists were swarming at ground zero trying to route psychologists away from the victim's family, and doing "touch assists" at the site.

I'd link to the page at xenu.net but it seems to be down or /.ed at the moment.

Here's (ironically for this story) the cached link on google:

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[bnenning]

This was reported on xenu.net about a week after 9/11. According to the article fox news was scrolling a scientology number across the bottom of the screen as some kind of mental health hotline" for about two hours before they were notified that it was a Scientology number.

Moderate this up.

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Anonymous Coward]

They have killed people. Generally by accident while doing something dangerious and illegal agaisnt their 'enemies'.

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[connorbd]

No, that's not a particularly accurate way of looking at it at all. Al Qaeda is a cult, I don't think that can really be disputed, but L. Ron Hubbard was more like a theological robber baron: grabbed what he wanted, bought off or crushed anyone in his way. Osama Bin Laden is nothing more or less than a real-life Cobra Commander.

/Brian

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[tetraminoe]

Why aren't we looking as much into them as we are into Al Qaida? Because Scientologists don't crash planes into buildings.

Re:Scientology = America's Al Qaida

[Anonymous Coward]

>Because Scientologists don't crash planes into buildings.

. . .yet.

Speaking from Germany

[kybernator]

Nope, they are in no way banned here, even though two or three years ago they tried to get a lot of international media attention claiming they were opressed.
Truth is: they lost a court case regarding exemption from taxes as a religious non-profit-organisation (I mean, c'mon, sc. and non-profit...) _and_ organisations and business firms that do training, coaching and counselling for gouvernment agencies have to sign a declaration that they are not a part of sc. and that they will not introduce scientologic philosophy and methods - this rule was introduced whe plans had leaked to take over the gouvernment by means of setting up counselling and advisory firms, introducing sc. methods in gouvernment offices and recruiting decision-makers.

They need your help !

[Anonymous Coward]

Help fight against those scientology criminals, see the support page at Xenu to know how. This is even more important than fighting against M$.
Geeks of the world, unite !

What happened to fair use?

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't copyright law include a fair use clause? If that didn't exist, journalism wouldn't and couldn't exist! If I recall correctly, you can say anything about anyone and can quote their works with only two real qualifiers: 1) your criticism had better be true (otherwise, get ready for a LIBEL lawsuit) and 2) you shouldn't be profiting directly off their intellectual property. If the offended party can't prove that the comments were libelous or directly infringe on copyright, the tough luck! There's nothing wrong with calling a someone by name a criminal if you can prove it.

Getting back to google, how is indexing someone's comments a violation of the DMCA? I'm very confused here. If the Scientologist's can't sue successfully for libel or copyright infringement, then how can indexing xenu.net's material be a violation of any law?

Frankly, I'm getting very pissed off lately with IP law. Its supposed to SUPPORT the development and dissemination of ideas not protect monopolists and bullies!

It already happened.

[little_fluffy_clouds]

Let's see... If someone in this thread links to a page thats super critical of scientology, could the scientologists go after slashdot too?

Go after slashdot again, you mean.

By the way, that old slashdot article is a great read, if you have forgotten all about these issues, read it again.

Re:It already happened.

[gomerbud]

Strange... It happened on March 16, 2001. Thats almost exactly a year ago today. It's especially amazing because of sleep-dep.

Re:It already happened.

[Anonymous Coward]

Strange... It happened on March 16, 2001. Thats almost exactly a year ago today. It's especially amazing because of sleep-dep.

What's even more funny is that it we hear about this on thursday morning, just in time for the 14:00 weekly stats.

Our Constitutional Duty

[jcoleman]

Just like with DeCSS, it is the Constitutional duty for each reader with the ability to do so to post the contents of those pages referenced in the complaint on his or her website and register them with Google. I wonder how many letters those Hubbard freaks can write.

Hey, Scientologists, now try Freenet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Clowns. A lot of your material is on Freenet, including the really juicy stuff that costs suckers $350,000 to look at. Go for it!

Re:Hey, Scientologists, now try Freenet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientologists, just get on Freenet (you're smart, you can figure that out, right?) and retrieve key
SSK@WRhGF3h0ijFh1eVJnFu~H9OyIpAPAgM/antiscien t/8//

Now, figure out how to control it, you schmucks.

Thank you, Ian and Crew! This is what it's all about!

Xenu.net is still on slashdot

[skybird0]

Xenu.net still comes up when I do a Google search. Official $cientology websites just appear first.

ATTN all webmasters: Lets Link to Xenu

[Anonymous Coward]

So Google won't link to Xenu.net, we're all listed
on Google right? So let's all link to Xenu.net so
our visitors can find it indirectly.

White Hat Research

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Man.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get in touch with them, at a phoneline they had euphemistically inserted alongside all the emergency services CNN was showing after 9/11, at 1-800-FOR-TRUTH. Just don't call from home, they tend to call back and get very nasty.

Psychotic bastards.

hrumph

[Anonymous Coward]

more examples of a repressive society
"I disaproveof what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

maybe we should go back in time

Re:uh...

[Quill_28]

Every religion is a cult you dumb asses...

No you are wrong. They are certain requirements that must be met to be considered a cult.

I am sure with a little web browsing on Google you could find the requirements.

Btw, if I go kill 444 poeple and then claim to be a "atheist" is atheisism now evil?

Gilmore on censorship

[GCU Friendly Fire]

John Gilmore is widely quoted as saying "The Net treats censorship as damage and routes around it."[1] This has applied to previous attacks by the cult. The owners of xenu.net are right not to try to give the cult any toehold by attempting to fight it--others can take up the torch simply by mirroring the pages, legally.

The Google search engine is useful, but this case demonstrates a vulnerability that arises from widespread reliance on one very good centralized system.

[1] For what it's worth, he agrees that it's the kind of thing he might have said! :)

The best Scientology info is in his OTHER books...

[teamhasnoi]

L Ron Hubbard was a fine writer. Battlefield Earth is an excellent book (before Travota). R. Ron Hubbard also wrote a huge series of books called Mission Earth. 10 volumes! A zillion pages. Also very good.

Before you say, "Shut up you.. you... Scientologist!", let me point out that the main character in both Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth (10 full novels!) was a guy who was concerned with security. This guy lied, cheated, stole, and killed to reach his goals. Not just just a little, ALOT. It permeated every fibre of both characters. There was not a moment when these two were NOT scheming, planning on killing someone for small gains or devising ways to get "leverage" over their enemies. They viewed others (apart from themseves) as bags of meat.

My point to all of this is that L. Ron Hubbard was a writer. Take into account that writers "write what they know" (even a little, he wrote THOUSANDS of pages featuring these characters), and you have all the anti-Scientology information you need. L. RON. HUBBARD - GOOD writer, BAD religous leader.

If Travolta is reading this: I loved PULP FICTION

What about Xenu banner on Slashdot ?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least I would prefer that to IBM ones...

I almost forgot....

[Anonymous Coward]

Operation Clambake:

http://www.xenu.net

The Lisa McPherson Trust:

http://www.lisatrust.net

Two birds with one stone

[AlistairGroves]

How about screwing over the scientologists and screwing over spammers at the same time?

When using fake lists of e-mails for spam bots, why not add scientology e-mail addresses. Those that have spam relayed through their servers, simply send it off to a scientology server..

Its still ok in the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

(unless its more insidious than I thought)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=scientology +s ite+xenu.net

I feel sorry for Google...

[Squirrel Killer]

I feel sorry for Google, now that they've opened the door to de-list pages. I can see all sorts of targets of criticism claiming the DMCA to cow Google into removing results. Think of all the added work Google will have to do to comply with all those requests.

FORD EXEC: This site is critical of our new Ford Excessive SUV, DMCA it out of you're listings!
GOOGLE: Oh...O-OK...sure... (Butter's voice)

BLIZZARD LAWYER: This site has a program to allow our games to be used on a LAN! DMCA it out of your database!
GOOGLE: Oh...O-OK...sure...

BILL G.: This review says bad things about our SQL server. Fire the DMCA at it Google!
GOOGLE: Oh...O-OK...sure...

DUBYA: Our military plans are protected by the DMCA. Google, nuke this site that criticizes them!
GOOGLE: Oh...O-OK...sure...

Maybe if they had stood up for their own free speech rights they wouldn't have opened the barn door like this. As much as I like Google, part of me wants to see the floodgates open and the de-listers come swarming in. Maybe someone will realize that occasionally, you do have to stand up for your rights.

-sk

Re:I feel sorry for Google...

[Oink.NET]

The more this turns over in my little head, the more I wonder if this wasn't a carefully planned move on Google's part to attract media attention to the ill effects of the DMCA. Obviously hurtful compliance with the DMCA could possibly speed its demise more than ignoring it outright.

Re:I feel sorry for Google...

[Squirrel Killer]

Obviously hurtful compliance with the DMCA could possibly speed its demise more than ignoring it outright.

I thought about that too, but then who's a judge going to side with? Google with their free speech and $1 to de-list or MegaCorp, Inc. with free enterprises and $42,000,000,000 for lost sales? Further, I think it's a questionable legal strategy to cave to the de-listers in hopes that it'll generate public support in the end. It's like believing the lie that "the lurkers support me!"

-sk

Re:I feel sorry for Google...

[GregWebb]

Google could be made useless and given an extremely difficult life by this sort of thing if people want to be malicious. Google also seem to have a reputation for being trustworthy with their users. So...

The Scientologists seem to have decided that Google can't index those pages, right? Well, search for Operation Clambake and you still get a bunch of pages on the site. So, how about putting an apology to their users on the front page, explaining that they've had to remove many references to Operation Clambake from their database because of alleged copyright infringement, and that American law means they can't assess the validity of these claims, they have to just remove them.

This would seem to:

* Help with the trust thing
* Help people understand how silly the DMCA is
* Send a lot of people searching for Operation Clambake (which still works) to find out what the fuss was about...

Now, how _long_ that would work for I don't know - Scientology (I will _not_ call them a church, they're no such thing) will probably jump on them fairly soon. However, Google's a busy site and this will get people interested, so how long will it be before the news media picks up on this one?

Result? Hopefully, about as helpful for the Scientologists as when they got Slashdot to remove one of their (trade secret, I ask you... they're just worried that people will realise how mad their teachings are) holy texts and it was instead replaced by a large pile of anti-Scientology information and a big story, really nasty to them, on the front page of one of the web's busier sites.

Google, you game for this?

Re:I feel sorry for Google...

[PurpleBob]

This would also

* Get their pets murdered

Taking a stand against the Scientologists is not something you want to do on a whim.

Re:I feel sorry for Google...

[GregWebb]

It may well not be comfortable for them in the short term, but I would suggest that Google are potentially as powerful as any of the major media companies, if they want to be.

Let's say that Scientology started pulling this against Rupert Murdoch. Just in this country he controls the biggest selling tabloid newspaper (The Sun) and broadsheet (The Times) and the biggest ditigal TV provider (Sky) which has its own news channel (http://www.sky.com/skynews/home/) which is OK and pretty popular.

Think of the stink he'd raise and what sort of publicity it would get Scientology. They'd be buried, quickly, under a deluge of accurate information about their practices.

Scientology tactics may work very well against small or uncoordinated groups and individuals - but I wouldn't want to try them against a group with real power to get information out. On the net, that's exactly what Google is. It would be ugly for a little while, then Scientology would be hit very, very hard.

They can only win by picking their battles. None of the big boys seem to have been motivated enough to really go for them, _yet_ - because there's abig story out there but it's ugly while it starts so you've got to really want to pursue it. Google may have just been given that motivation...

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. OK, what I've posted is optimistic, but let's hope...

Fight the cause...

[Unfallen]

I've mirrored the links out of a sense of rebellion and to see what happens :) Whether it will achieve anything remains to be seen, but it at least publicises the extent to which both the DMCA and Scientology is so very, very wrong. There is no way to silence criticism on the net, but if scare tactics were to work then this would be a disturbed place indeed. Hence my mirroring.

Divide and conquer.

Just to be safe

[Anonymous Coward]

Google should remove all references to scientology (including those to the cult's own sites) and refuse to provide any links to scientology sites. Then a search for scientology would come up empty every time.

At the very least it would keep impressionable young minds from being seduced by these jerks.
"Think of the children!"

Lies, damned lies, and Scientology

[crath]

There are two issues at hand:

1. Is xenu.net posting copyrighted documents without permission of the copyright holder?
2. Cults need to obscure the truth in order to deceive their prey.

The first issue is a serious one, and in the past this has been the method which the C. of S. used to shut down critics: those critics were breaking the law by reproducing copyrighted works. The law allows for critics to quote limited amounts source material within the context of written criticism. The law does not, and should not, allow wholesale copying of other poeple's material; regardless of whether that material contains lies.

The second issue is the real issue; however, as I've already noted, cults use the misbehaviour of their critics against them. Yes, let's put cults out of business; but let us also remember that "the end doesn't justify the means." Remember McCarthy and the mess he made while operating under and end justifies the means assumption.

Just an evil fascist cult

[ben_degonzague]

Scientology is not a religion, its just a fascist organization seeking to brainwash and control others. A friend in Germany explained to me how they banned this fascist cult in most placed in Europe such as the UK and Germany, we should do the same here I'm sorry to say. Its bad when government has to step and ban certain things but groups like this and NMBLA should not be protected under the first amendment. What's more amazing is how organizations can actually get away with suing people for criticizing them. So the first amendment, I'd say the most sacred right in the USA, should protect YOUR OWN EXISTENCE but not the rights of others, correct? If that isn't fascism, I don't know what is.

Ben

I think it is time to...

[krouic]

... dig out those SSS (Scientology Secret Scriptures) out of my archive and web them again.

Krouic

No longer _any_ critics on first google-page!

[danro]

www.xenu.net has dropped from the google-search for the word "scientology".
I tried the same thing a few weeks ago and it turned up as no:4, now there are no critics at all on the first page of the results!

So someone who is curious and makes his first search about scientology gets propaganda only, no critics, no nothing, just commercials...

I think this could actually have an inpact on their ability to recrute new victims.

We should...

[eniacpx]

just remove all content from the net and replace everything with pretty pictures of horsees. Cute horsees. ASCII horsees for lynx users. Then the world would be happy and nobody would be offended!

Abstract: Whats wrong with everyone?

Re:We should...

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate horses!

Where are his servers located?

[Robber Baron]

Move 'em (or more particularily the offending pages) to a location outside the US. Problem solved.

BTW does anyone have a mirror of the site with its "offending" pages intact? Maybe some of us should grab them before they disappear forever.

Re:Where are his servers located?

[Robber Baron]

...Sorry! Thought they were demanding he remove pages from his site!

Re:Where are his servers located?

[Darkninja666]

They didn't remove the site its still at Xenu.net. They used a cunning battle tactic ... remove the idea that there is more information.
As we all know the search engines are how the majority of the web pages are found, and yet there is still approx. 90% to 95% of the web(can't remember exact stat) left to the black ether of the unknown.

Re:Where are his servers located?

[Anonymous Coward]

Listen you dirty pathetic bastard. THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS FUCKING STORY IS ABOUT!

Google is the one that got slapped, not this Xenu fucker. Christ, you want google to fucking move it's entire farm out of the US? God damnit, you even have the arrogance to post with your +1 bonus. Jesus christ, how about we make a deal. You don't ever use that bonus again, unless you FUCKING READ THE ARTICLE!

You are a worthless cunt.

Re:Where are his servers located?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well you're handle says it all, you anonymous piece of flyshit! I'd love to see you say it to my face! Does your daddy know you're playing with his computer? Probably you're sitting on his lap right now with his dick up your ass. Pathetic pieces of shit like you make me sick! Please do the human race a favour and kill yourself now before you contaminate the gene pool further or waste anymore valuable resources.

Google still links to xenu.net

[onnellinen]

I guess they failed to remove all the links.

http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Religion_a nd_Spirituality/Opposing_Views/Scientology/

Re:uh...

[chez69]

No,

because it doesn't fit his views that religion is evil. So therefore, your reasoning is invalid.

=-)

Can't they leave us alone for once?

[cecil36]

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/03/16/125622 6&mode=thread

Haven't they bothered the geek community enough? They know that they're not going to convert any geeks over because all of our money is already spent on b33r, hardware, pr0n, and chicks. We're so broke that we resort to P2P for our music and downloading warez so we can use our computers.

Re:Can't they leave us alone for once?

[ThePilgrim]

b33r, hardware, pr0n, and chicks.

Sorry, what is the last one on the list?
I run out of money on the first three :-)

Re:Can't they leave us alone for once?

[WotanKhan]

They recruit geeks heavily. Around 8 years ago their booths started showing up at the big computer shows (where you go to buy parts wholesale) and have been there ever since.

Feel my finger? Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

They should sue that cell phone company for their new commercial, "Can you hear me? Good!", for directly ripping off one of Scientology's exercises for use in their ad.

Scientologists hate musicians too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientology has been very aggressive lately in trying to run critics off the 'Net. In fact a musician I met online has been threatened by Scientology lawyers for putting up some songs critical of them on MP3.com. He goes by the name of "El Queso" and has had a site on MP3.com for nearly a year. A cease and desist was sent to MP3.com and they immediately folded, pulling the site and sending all of his personal info to the Scientologists! Now he is just waiting for the inevitable "Fair game" tactics to start. He expects them to pull some shit, because he acutally insulted Scientology's mighty leader, David Miscavige. You can read all about it here and listen to the music here

Re:Scientologists hate musicians too!

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that you just Slashdotted a Tripod site...Their bandwidth cap is like 5MB/hour...It'll be ages before you can see it again.

Way to limit your usefulness, Google...

[Hrothgar The Great]

Isn't it great that all I have to do is ask and I can have any information I want removed from the most widely used search engine on the 'net? And think about it this way: since there are thousands of corporations in existence, and since they all have information they probably don't want people spreading, and since Google will basically just bend over and do anything a company asks them to, there soon won't be any information left in their database. Great job, Google!

I have a sneaking suspicion that there are Scientologists working at Google. How else do you explain their sudden shifting in attitude and policy. Up until now, they've maintained that information indexed within their database is not their responsibility... Just think about it.

Re:Way to limit your usefulness, Google...

[La Buge]

Great job, Google!

Google made $65,000,000 last year (And that's sales not profit). Scientology offered $12,000,000 just to settle one case. Google is really no match for Scientology.

Maybe the should have taken the risk and fight this battle but what about other, even smaller companies, what about individuals ? It's really the law that makes a problem, isn't it ?

what Google should do

[danny]

The legal threats may be too bad for Google to defy Scientology. But there's something they could do that would reduce the chances of this happening to them again (or all the time). Google could ALSO remove every official Scientology web site from their index. That would send a clear signal that trying to win an online PR battle by deploying lawyers against Google is not a good idea.

If you want to write to Google about this, comments@google.com is the address to use.

Danny.

Re:what Google should do

[rixster]

I wrote to them. I didn't mention scientology or xenu, but just if they were censoring sites that they believed were in violation of the DMCA. If they bother replying, I post whatever it was here.

Re:what Google should do

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT UP

Re:what Google should do

[teamhasnoi]

If there was a way to mod you up to 'Infinity", I would. Here is what Scientology bastards did to Slashdot.

Re:what Google should do

[pyrrho]

excellent idea!!! really good.

Locating search engines outside USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't mean to sound like anti-US troll or anything, but why are there no major search engines located outside USA? I know that Google et al have 'branch offices' in other countries, but how about the actual companies residing in other countries? Good locations would be countries like Canada and Scandinavian countries, since they have decent backbone links to USA. Just seems that thanks DMCA there are lots of problems (real and potential) for search engines, things that might not be as troublesome outside US jurisdiction?

Also... I would understand Google for removing cached versions of pages due to law suit threats, but I thought linking was (still) supposed to be ok?

Use Copernic instead...

[Robber Baron]

...Operation Clambake (xenu.net) still comes in about halfway down in a search for "Scientology".

Add it to your favourites list

[Thangodin]

I've added these sites to my favourites list. I've been collecting stuff on Scientology for years.

Add these sites to your favourites list, and put a link from you website if you have one. Urge everyone else to do the same. The best way to fight these guys is to make these attempts backfire.

Religion in general

[Frequanaut]

Does anyone else look at religions in general and wonder what good has come out of them?

There seems to be a difference between spirituality and religion, with religion claiming to be the organization of spirituality, but in fact, I would argue that it stifles and kills spirituality.

From the crusades, to the inquisition, to terrorist actions to the suppression of the apple of knowledge throughout the history of man what has religion done for us?

This isn't a rhetorical question, i'd like to read an answer.

Re:Religion in general

[Christianfreak]

Not preaching just pointing something out:

You obviously don't know very much about religion. Religious organizations run hospitals,schools where there are no other schools nursing homes, counseling/drug abuse centers and countless charities. I personally know of tons of religious people who helped with the WTC attacks, simply by going there, preparing food for victims, giving firemen a drink of water.

I'm a Christian. But just like every other human I'm responsible for my actions to God and to the laws of the country I live in. I don't condone the people who carried out the Crusades (BTW if you read history Muslims were killing Christians and Jews too and I don't condone either side), I don't condone any Christian who does anything in the name of God that flies in the face of Jesus' teachings.

Same goes for the terrorists, they did what they did out of hate, which is not a teaching of Islam. A lot of religious people helped clean up the mess as well.

Religion has brought stability to society, it has educated people when the govt wouldn't. It has given to people in need. And it has given meaning to life for countless around the world.

You are free to believe that what I believe is a hoax, that I'm brainwashed, whatever, but please don't take certain moments in history where people have done bad things in the name of religion and apply it to religion or religious people in whole.

That said: Scientology is not a religion. Its a congame disquised as one. It is an attempt to steal money from people, not to help them. Not all religious organizations require that their members give money. My church asks for an offering, they don't force me to give it, I do it because it helps to send people to places like New York, it helps pay for those schools and hospitals and charities. It helps feed my pastor and his family (and by no means is he rich, he actually works a second job to make enough money).

The vast majority of religious people want to help the world, not steal from it. I apologize for the few who have given you the opposite impression

Re:Religion in general

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't know very much about religion. Religious organizations run hospitals,schools where there are no other schools nursing homes, counseling/drug abuse centers and countless charities. I personally know of tons of religious people who helped with the WTC attacks, simply by going there, preparing food for victims, giving firemen a drink of water.

Of course, Scientology ALSO went to Ground Zero. But they didn't go there to help people. They knew they'd be getting hefty insurance checks, so they went there to swindle them. We know because their internal email got leaked to xenu.net, yet another reason the cult is pissed at them.

Re:Religion in general

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't condone any Christian who does anything in the name of God that flies in the face of Jesus' teachings."

what about non-christians who do things that fly in the face of jesus's teachings.

the catholics believe it is a sin for me to wear a lil rubber thing on the end of my cock, so should condoms therefore be illegal? its gods will however, and that is what it is wether i believe in him or not.

this lil problem is where the whole abortion debate springs from & is a large part of what makes me not just athiest, but anti-christian as well. i dont appreciate high-minded politicians with terrible singing voices telling me what gods intentions for me are.

i also dont appreciate corporate businesses (with stock holdings and huge profit margins) being given tax-free status simply because they have the word "jesus" in their name.

wouldnt it be nice if us humans could do nice things for eachother WITHOUT having to bow down in humility before the giant pink elephant in the sky? wouldnt it be great if i could feed the poor & shelter them WITHOUT having to buy the preacher a Lincoln Continental first?

Re:Religion in general

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

I'm a Christian.[...]That said: Scientology is not a religion.

On a related note, I find it hilariously ironic that Scientology says that Christianity is the result of an alien mind-control implant...

Re:Religion in general

[Christianfreak]

:) Yeah I'm meeting up with the mothership this afternoon.... or something

heheheehehe

Re:Religion in general

[Frequanaut]

I'll ignore your statement about my perceived ignorance.

Wait, no I wont...

I grew up a Roman Catholic. Went through 12 years of religious indoctrination (school), and studied philosophy (which included plenty of religion) in college before I decided I'd like to be able to live at a certain standard after college and changed my major. I'm not expert, but I think I'm more familiar with the churchs teachings than the average person.

In particular I find it amusing how many catholics don't know what dogma means. The very definition of dogma excludes any free thought or discussion of an issue related to such. I honestly don't understand how anyone can reconcile that concept whereby a gods (if you believe in it) greatest gift to humanity (our capacity for thought) is squelched by those in power.

While your examples are possibly reasonable, I'd like to point out that none of those are unique to organized religion. There are plenty of people who do such things in a non-denominational manner; I'm not sure that they stand as examples of good things brought about by organized religion, they are rather good things brought about by good people.

You later state that organized religion has brought about stability but give vague examples that don't necessarily apply to organized religion as a whole. Please, where has organized religion done such? Have they ever done such when they action has done anything other than increase their own power?

I absolutely disagree that the church has educated people. Please explain where. The church may have taught people certain rules but those teachings were only to further their own power rather than to enlighten people. The church does not teach people how to think, to reason, they promote rote learning.

I agree with your last statement about religious people wanting to help the world, but you're confusing those people and the organizations they belong too. Those people haven't given me an opposite impression, the organizations have.

Don't take this personally, I don't dislike religious people unless I see them attempting to use religion to further themselves or reduce others (actually, I dislike anyone who uses anything to further themselves at the expense of others). My guess is that you do as well. The problem is that those people who are usually attracted to positions of power, wether it is in a church, government or business will do the above regularly to maintain their power. Hence my questioning the value of organized religion where people are placed in power over others.

Re:Religion in general

[Christianfreak]

Your last statement says it all:

Hence my questioning the value of organized religion where people are placed in power over others.

As do I. I personally am Baptist. As I see it God is my authority. I'm free to make my own choices. My pastor might actually ask me about those choices but he has no power to choose for me or make me do something else. (Neither does anyone else)

So by that that def I'm not in a religion where people are placed in power over me.

I apologize for perceiving you as ignorant. I immediatly thought your post was more of a knee-jerk reaction to religion, I was wrong for that and I am sorry.

Re:Religion in general

[dadragon]

As do I. I personally am Baptist. As I see it God is my authority. I'm free to make my own choices. My pastor might actually ask me about those choices but he has no power to choose for me or make me do something else. (Neither does anyone else)

Personally, I see Christianity as a faith. A faith that guides you, God at the top, no mediator. This is why I don't like catholicism. It puts the Priests in a position of power above you, and in a position that's easy to abuse.

A religion is a system of rules and regulations which must be followed to assure salvation/nirvana/whatever. True Christianity is none of that.

But Gay Priests are Ok right?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Catholic church sues people for calling, get this, priests gay and pedophiles! They cover up these little perverts in their "network" and obviously consider themselves "superior" beings who are above the law and can lie and rape to any of their clergy. Personally I'd rather be robbed of my money by my religion than robbed of my virginity by them.

Re:But Gay Priests are Ok right?

[micke42]

How can you by any means compare homosexuals and pedophiles?

DeCSS Shirts

[PinkStainlessTail]

Remember these: all the code on a t-shirt? Why not the same thing with OTIII (or Operation Clambake's summary thereof).

When I took their personality test

[Anonymous Coward]

I listed as my faults my tendency to make passes at cute researchers, and my extensive knowledge of fine local restaurants...

Re:When I took their personality test

[Anonymous Coward]

Above AC raises an interesting point.

Hot chicks with vacant brainwashed eyes make for great places to deposit that semen surplus. If they're gullible enough to fall for scientology, they're probably dumb enough to fall into, well, you know.

Actually, this applies to chicks from other religions too.

religions

[a_an_the]

are crap, all of them. Sorry God, we all have failed you.

Most of the Scientology docs available via Freenet

[Anonymous Coward]

At the following Freenet key:

SSK@WRhGF3h0ijFh1eVJnFu~H9OyIpAPAgM/antiscient/5//

Now getting your Freenet node working in the first place ... that is another thing altogether! ;]

Re:uh...

[jnd3]

Btw, if I go kill 444 poeple and then claim to be a "atheist" is atheisism now evil?

Sorry. Josef Stalin and a host of other Communists (who were, by definition, atheists) already beat you to it...

Tell mroe about OSA

[Platinum Dragon]

This complex used to be the Cedars of Sinai hospital but was purchased by Hubbard and company back in the 1970's. It is where ASHO, AOLA, and the LA orgs are, as well as a good portion of OSA.

Lee, tell these folks all about the Office of Special Affairs. If ever there were a terrorist group operating on U.S. soil, OSA is it. Harassment, dirty tricks, stealing files from government offices, they've done it all.

Federal law usually supercedes corporate policy.

[CoreDump]

I think the subject speaks for itself.

If Google's policy is in conflict with Federal Law ( IE, the DMCA ), guess which one will be upheld?

Not good enough!

[xod]

A google search for "scientology xenu" shows a link from xenu.net in the third hit.

Scientology's evil Plan...

[mobydobius]

Evil Scientology Kingpin: Gentlemen, we need to bring down Xenu.net. Their truthspeak can be tolerated no more.

Pimply Henchman: But Sire, we've been trying to get their ISP to remove them. It hasn't worked so far. I fear the task is impossible.

Evil Scientology Kingpin:Fool! We are Scientologists! Nothing is impossible to us! Bring me my trusted cronie, Michael of Slashdot...

Michael enters, and bows before the kingpin

Michael:My Lord.

Evil Scientology Kingpin: Michael, I want you to post a story about Scientology. In it, I want a prominent link to Xenu.net.

Michael: But Sire, why do you encourage negative publicity?

Evil Scientology Kingpin: Not for publicity, Michael, but for The Slashdot effect!. Xenu.net's servers will burst into flames when all of the Slashdot minions click on your little link. When its done, we will threaten to expose our pornographic pictures of CowboyNeal to the world unless the article you write is removed....No lasting negative press, and Xenu.net is finally removed.

Evil Scientology Kingpin laughs maniacally

Michael: It shall be done, my Lord.

Jesuits

[PHAEDRU5]

You say:

"This top-down approach is, as far as I know, unique to them. No other religious grouping that I am aware of does that."

The Jesuits also operate this way.

Wow...scientology sounds like....

[CrazyDuke]

...the corporate attitude towards us "consumers" turned into a religon. Scientology is more than a cult; it is a corporation with ideals like those of the MPAA, RIAA, and the BSA. Screwing us "consumers" (read as peons, peasents, etc...)and making money from the shit they pump out.

We no longer have a class system soley of the poor, the middle, and the rich. It is now the consumers, the lawyers, and the corporations.

Scientology and Southpark

[CathedralRulz]

Scientology is a complete fraud, but an interesting fraud. I would encourage anyone even marginally curious to take a look at the explanation of the cult on xenu.net.

The Scientologists had an interesting conflict with the creators of Southpark. In a skit for the MTV Music Awards show, the South Park creators lambast Scientology and were threatened with lawsuits - yet they didn't back down. Here is the link to a description of the skit. Here.

Southpark also tore into scientology in a spoof on them and street magician David Blaine. HOWEVER - note that the fellow who plays Chef does not appear in this episode - for he, Isaac Hayes, is a scientologist. Watch the episode here.

Scientology video footage on net

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.lisatrust.net/Media/pickets.htm

has some really scary or funny footage of Scientology representatives in Clearwater, Florida interfering with a peaceful picket of their headquarters following the bizarre death of one of their members, Lisa McPherson.

tone scale

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't John Ashcroft using the same tone scale for civil rights? Pinkish tone gives more civil rights than brownish. New camping facilities have been fashioned for the latter tone at the camp X-ray.

A friend of mine committed suicide after joining

[bjornte]

I've never been personally in touch with the cult. However, the only person I have ever known that has taken his own life, did so about a year after joining the Sc. At the point of joining the cult, he could be described as lonely and depressed, but I don't think anyone regarded him as a suicide candidate.

Of course, the cult can't be blamed directly for his suicide. It was his own choice. But they did prey on a person that was easy to swager, his personal suffering (and longing for a happier, more meaningful life) taken into account.

Google-bombing

[CyberDruid]

Hmmm... Yesterday there was speculation on kuro5hin whether the google-censorship was due to xenu.net using "google-bombing". There seems to be little doubt that xenu.net has been google-bombing. The only question is whether this contributed to google's decision of having them bumped. If so, good riddance. People who try to exploit search engines by phoney meta data and other practices are scum. (Yes, I know the Scientologists did the same thing, but that does not justify anyting. You don't see me going around brainwashing people just because the Scientologists do...)

Re:Google-bombing

[Anonymous Coward]

No, xenu.net was not Google-bombing. That was Scientology themselves. There were a couple people (not related to the website) who were perhaps overzealously linking to it. That turns out to be completely unrelated to the DMCA notice.

Anyway, if you deleted websites because SOMEBODY ELSE other than the owner of a website "Google-bombed" it, you know that would be a great way to DOS websites you don't like!

Re:Google-bombing

[IamTheRealMike]

Hmmm... Yesterday there was speculation [kuro5hin.org] on kuro5hin whether the google-censorship was due to xenu.net using "google-bombing".

Yeah, except Google wrote back to them and told them explicitly it was because of the DMCA, not google-bombing

De-list www.scientology.org Slashdot em!

[mcknation]

Cut and paste so there is no referred field.
Knock them off the internet! Come on I know we can do it guys!

McK

There are deeper reasons

[Jade E. 2]

I haven't seen anybody asking the first question that came up when I read all this:

Why remove those specific pages?

The answer I've come up with is simple. Removing the pages listed got rid of all the xenu.net links on the first 3 pages of google results for a search for scientology. Even if they reinstate the links, it will probably take a while for them to resume their former place in the index. This is just like the tons of domain names all run by the Scientologists, it's a ploy to make it harder to find info about them. They know they can't stop it completely, but that's OK, as long as they can make it so that the average person won't see anything bad about them without specifically looking.

Re:There are deeper reasons

[danro]

I posted this earlier but didn't get modded up.I wish English was my first language :-(
Anyway, it's a good thing someone else made the same observation and expressed it well enought to be seen.
Kudos to you!

Bastards.

[Anonymous Coward]

The $cientologist bastards are no better than those who hide behind other religions (not mentioning particular brands of diety worship here of course) for terrorist purposes. Could $cientology be considered a terrorist group? Their tactics certainly smack of terrorism, don't they?

Consider this: $cientology has a number of high profile celebrities who constant rave about how it has helped them and how good it is. Most intelligent people look at $cientology and say "jeezus h. christ what a scam!" ... Does that show how stupid these celebrities are?

What's that OT level where they can "kill you with a thought" anyway? If they could do that then I guess they wouldn't have that many critics. ;-)

Re:what Google should do - Wow - that was fast !!!

[rixster]

Thanks for writing to Google.

We read all of the email we receive and try to send personal responses to each message.

This note is just to let you know that we've received your letter, and you'll hear from us soon. We appreciate your taking the time to contact us.

Keep on Googlin',
The Google Team

i wish...

[SGDarkKnight]

i had a nickle every time DMCA threatened someone... i also wish I had a penny everytime it got posted on /. -- either way I would be able to retire by the time i was 30.

Question and Suggestion

[Sloppy]

Google says that the counter-notification must include:

The subscriber's name, address, and telephone number, and a statement that the subscriber consents to the jurisdiction of Federal District Court for the judicial district in which the address is located, or if the subscriber's address is outside of the United States, for any judicial district in which the service provider may be found, and that the subscriber will accept service of process from the person who provided notification under subsection (c)(1)(C) or an agent of such person.

But does DMCA really require that counter-notifications require such a ridiculous jurisdiction consent thingie? (Damn, I defended the notification/counternotification aspect of DMCA just a few days ago..)

Another idea: Since the integrity of Google's searches is compromised and there's nothing Google can do to prevent damage to their reputation, then they should at least minimize the damage by doing the right thing: They should add a special case to their code, to cause searches on all scientology-related terms, to point anti-scientology sites, and delist all pro-scientology sites. No caching for those sites; just search results.

This is a bad thing to do, but it is less bad. Unless xenu.net sends a counter-notification, there is simply nothing Google can do that will let them come out of this smelling like a rose. So they should fight fire with fire; remaining uninvolved is impossible.

Don't miss this post

[Anonymous Coward]

I posted this in the appropriate place, but I want to make sure it's not overlooked being buried.

Texas Government CoS Corruption comment

The only step I can imagine taking now is attempting to build a class action suit against the state of Texas on behalf of Texas residents and companies.

Re:w/Google, won the battle but not the war?

[Akardam]

Clicking on the link above, one of the two Google Directory categories was Society > Religion and Spirituality > Opposing Views > Scientology. And, featuring promenantly on the top of that list, is Xenu.net.

Yes, it's a teensy bit obfuscated, but the fact that just one additional click can still get you there shouldn't be ignored.

FYI: Possible Scientology 'front' company

[KC7GR]

I learned, not too long ago, that the owner and founder of Executive Software, maker of the 'Diskeeper' defragging package, is a devout Scientologist.

For that reason alone, I have chosen not to purchase any products from E.S.

For reference, the site is http://www.diskeeper.com

Re:FYI: Possible Scientology 'front' company

[Anonymous Coward]

You should also be aware that the owner of Panda Anti-Virus is a contributing Scientologist. I won't be renewing my corporate license this year...

Submit Your Own Complaint

[Puk]

Given the history of scientology manipulating google's ranking system, why not just wipe them out with an equally questionable claim of your own? Send them a DMCA notification saying that every one of their pages (including the ones just used for rank boosting) individually violates a copyright you own. Watch them disappear off google. Suddenly the truly informative Scientology sites are on top. Seems like proper counter-use of a broken law -- the biggest problem being that the COS has some of the deepest pockets around.

Note that everything I say here is quite possibly illegal should not be done under any circumstances, by anyone. Really. :)

-Puk

Speaking of Germany

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't MS have to remove the disk defragmenter from Win2K in the German version, because the defragmenter is Disk Keeper?

DK is made by Executive Software, a company owned by Scientologists.

Re:Speaking of Germany

[Easy2RememberNick]

I heard that too, sort of. What I heard was the guy who programmed it later converted. Just hearsay...but if hearsay is good enough for Scientologists then it's good enough for me ;-P

you have obviously never heard of the

[Anonymous Coward]

CHURCH OF THE SUBGENIUS!!!!!!!

send all your money to bob and you will recieve slack!!!

thats right all the slack you can handle,

hot and cold running slack for only 1900 easy payments of $19.95

act now before x day or you will be really screwed

Taliban

[Anonymous Coward]

The US military bombed the crap out of the Taliban, whom has never been as big of a threat to the US as the $cienetology cult is. On top of that the religious nutcase of Ashcroft is in a top position. If I were an american citizen I'd be pissed beyond belief. All that about freedom of religion is working against you. People were thrown out of Europe for a good reason, now please throw them in the pacific so we can get some more sense in the world.

Re:uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh you unfortunate soul trapped within the confines of your language unable to see the big picture, oh well, it is ok.

Speaking of copyright infringement

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd think CoS would use the DMCA to do something about this page (porn, not safe for work), which copies this page (Scientology, not safe for anyone) for some reason.

Bad precedent for search engines

[weatherwax]

This seems like a very bad move on Google's part. It makes them, Google, responsible for the contents of the pages they link to. A DMCA action is brought against the content provider; in accepting it, Google is accepting the Scientologists' premise that the links they are generating are copyrighted.

It seems to me this opens the door for any organization to challenge competitor's links on Google, especially given that filing fraudulent DMCA actions has no penalty. Or for any corporation to stifle criticism by denying the little guy access to links.

The way I read DMCA, Heldal shouldn't be responding to Google, as they're not his ISP or ICP, they're not hosting his content at all. Google should be filing their own counter-notification, saying "these are only links, and they are not copyrighted". It's possible that the summaries of each page could be actionable, but I would have expected them to be "fair use".

Under Google's reading, any controversial website will now not only have to file counter-notifications to fraudulent DMCA claims against it, but counter-notifications to claims against any site which may link to it. Quite an effective chilling mechanism.

IANAL, of course. I have, however, been the target of a fraudulent Scientology DMCA action.

Re:Bad precedent for search engines

[weatherwax]

Never mind, this is explicitly a part of DMCA, it seems. So I believe the conclusions are valid, that there's a huge free speech impact of DMCA on search engines, but what the heck, we know that DMCA is designed to counter free speech.

This isn't about scientology!

[Newer Guy]

It's about the DMCA, a bad law that can be perverted by anyone to do just about anything, and in the process throw out about a dozen constitutionally guarenteed laws and processes. So far, I've seen two biggies just in this post, freedom of speech and fair use. Congress passed this preversion of law because they were paid off to! Don't attack scientology here. They're just using the tool that Congress gave them! The DMCA needs to be attacked..it's the problem and getting rid of IT is the solution!

Re:This isn't about scientology!

[lermanet]

The Copyright Ruse

A fellow named Ralph Oman described "economic freebies" being handed out to "sympathetic supplicants" in a letter to the editor in the Washington Post. His obtuse language ignored the fact of his previous employment by Scientology as a expert witness in RTC vs Lerma, Rich Leiby, The Washington Post, Marc Fisher and Digital Gateway Systems.

Scientology and its 'leader' David Miscavige through his company ASI, "Author Services International" and their DC lobby company Federal Legislative Associaties, lobbied hard through Sonny Bono, when he was on the Intellectual Property Committee, for the 90 year extension to the copyright law and for the DMCA law.

What was at stake was what I consider the criminal instruction manuals for running the Scientology con upon the public. The copyright controversy is only about money, BIG money.

The timing of this letter, and the current google fracas is importnat, because the US supreme court is currently reviewing a challenge to the 90 year copyright law..

The Constitution is about protecting individual liberty in hopes of ensuring the possibility of "the pursuit of happiness," in this life not the hereafter or after crossing some claimed "bridge to total freedom".

The balancing of these two factors should be governed by what is in the public interest, not the interests of well paid lawyers, their multinational corporate clients, or their expert witnesses like Ralph Oman.

we owe scientology a debt of gratitude for their despicable conduct brings bad, exploitable, abusable, badly written law into the public eye

So to this degree, it is about Scientology, because it is about bad laws....bad laws allow predatory shyster organizations like scientology to survive. Arnie Lerma
Ferengi + Borg = Scientology
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com- mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Re:Scientologists 1, RAMBUS 0

[jmv]

I think Scientology is smarter on one point: not to sue someone with 10 times more resources than you have. RAMBUS going after Infineon, Micron was a dumb idea.

Learn About Scientology

[FFFish]

If there's one good thing to come out of this, it would be for every Slashdot reader to learn more about Scientology.

Go read "A Piece of Blue Sky," a well-written expose on the cult. You will be disgusted at the things Scientology has done, and the power that it weilds.

Throwing children into the brig as punishment for weeks at a time, with nothing but water and bread... and rats and bilge-water. Committing local terrorism on home soil to keep critics silent. Allegations of killing ex-Scientologists: people already walking the fine edge of crazy, so they give 'em a short sharp shove off the edge. And on and on.

Ignorance of Scientology is dangerous.

These scientologists are brilliant

[abhinavnath]

Disagree with xenu.net? Do something controversial and get it posted on /.
...
/. effects kills xenu.net more effectively than any court order ever could

Sheer Genius

xenu.ca is still on google

[eldurbarn]

Search google for xenu and see that the xenu.ca site is still on the engine. Scientologists in the /. audience take note :-b

Class-action Suit Against Scientology?

[John Hasler]

I wonder if there is any possibility of bringing a class-action suit for malicious prosecution against Scientology? The class would be everyone they have sued or threatened to sue. Must be thousands by now.

Re:Class-action Suit Against Scientology?

[lermanet]

Well... It could be done now, if there were, perhaps 5 million dollars available to bankroll it.

The scientology litigation machine uses litigation stress and expense to buy silence.

see the graphicindex on lermanet.com

arnie lerma
ex-member Ferengi + Borg = Scientology
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com- mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Re:Class-action Suit Against Scientology?

[John Hasler]

"Well... It could be done now, if there were, perhaps 5 million dollars available to bankroll it."

No need for a bankroll. The cost of a lawsuit is in the lawyers' time, and class-action suits are usually done on a contingency basis. The lawyers work for a (large) share of the spoils.

Double Standards

[stud9920]

Like they say here in Belgium : On ne peut pas avoir le beurre ou l'argent du beurre (You can't both have the butter and the money for the butter).

I think :

• either they claim to be a religion, like they did successfully in the US because of the corruption^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hnaivity of the government, and then all their works should be public domain, in exchange for which they don't pay taxes.
• either they claim just to be a corporation which purpose is to suck money off movie stars and others, and then I have no problem with them enforcing their copyrights.

But not both ! That's just le beurre et l'argent du beurre.

Scientology isn't the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

There will always be wrongheaded people out there.

The problem is the DMCA, which gives their
wishes the force of law.

Ignore the scientologists

[pclminion]

The more front-page coverage these lunatics get, the more discussion they earn, the more powerful they become. Maybe the best way to deal with Scientology is to ignore it.

Re:Ignore the scientologists

[Doctor Nut]

The only problem with that is Thats exactly what the Scientologists want! This attempt to get critical links pulled gets less attention put on the criminal dealings of Scientology. They would be more than happy to see "wogs" (non-scientologists in Hubbard-speak) ignore them completely so they can continue bilking their members for auditing fees. The problem is, they won't be ignored as long as they keep pulling lamebrained PR moves like this on. Operation Footbullet keeps rolling on!

This is the most disgusting stuff I've ever read

[Uttles]

I really am left speechless, even soap-box-less. We need to shut this "religion" down.

Scientology in Windows...

[Rorschach1]

If I'm not mistaken, Executive Software, makers of the disk defragmentation software that now comes bundled with Windows, are Scientologist-controlled.

Re:Scientology in Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is why Win2k was banned in Germany, hwere they have the good sense to see Co$ as the shite eating gimp rapists that they are. M$ eventually removed the defrag component and so Germans, who's Gov like to jail or beat the shite out of Co$ (and rightly so), can now revel in the dung that is Win2k and Xp. Yay for Germany, they might have raped Europe in the past but horse fucking Co$ wankers is great in my books!

Google censors other things as well...

[WaxParadigm]

Google does not allow any adds by gun-related businesses (they have plenty of porn adds though).

They will not allow adds for guns, gun stores, gun-related products, or even food, and other regular items if they are being advertised by a gun-related store.

Example of Items they've refused to post adds for, because the business also happens to sell knives, defence weapons, or guns:
- Night Vision Goggles
- Dehydrated Food
- Mace

This is absolutely rediculous...it's no question what kind of agenda they are pushing here. These are legit, legal businesses, selling items that help to decrease crime protect families (and they're only advertising items that would be useful for camping or if the neighbor dog started attacking).

Article:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?AR TICLE_ID=268 19

Discussion on another forum:
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&thr eadid=69 225&highlight=google
(more for entertainment)

Re:Google censors other things as well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. I had no idea that Google had some kind of authoritarian agenda. OK, that is only for ads, but now that the cache is tainted, I suspect they will be overcome by some new search engine that offers unadulterated searches of the whole web.

Re:Google censors other things as well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, thinks that's a double standard?

Well, they don't seem to have any problem advertising illegal sallite equipment. At first I thought it was just for Canada, since google forwards me there, where this equipment is legal. But alas, its everywhere!

Webcounter...

[tcc]

They should put up webcounters, especially when linked to big hit sites like slashdot, maybe it would give them a clue on how many people are now informed on their abusive practices and they might reconsider their actions, bad press isn't good and they know it, that's why they are going against these sites in the first place, now if they realize that their actions are actually generating way more awareness in a week than the site alone in a year, if they have minimal judgment, they'll do the math.

had to pull a gun

[Anonymous Coward]

A guy I know went to one of their free 'audits' once out of curiosity. Once he saw tht it was utter BS he tried to leave. They wouldn't let him, he had to pull a gun and threaten to kill them (NO joke, I'm NOT kidding) to be let out of the building before they finished their 'sales pitch'.
These are not happy-friendly people

Oh come now...

[Rampant Atrocity]

Don't worry, Google hasn't been overrun by scientologists.

Point your browser to http://www.google.com. Search for scientology. What are the first things you see (i.e. the categories)??

Society > Religion and Spirituality > Scientology
Society > Religion and Spirituality > Opposing Views > Scientology

When one clicks on 'opposing views', one finds a plethora of sites that criticize scientology. Yeah, Clambake isn't there anymore, but for the wayward web surfer its definitely enough. Scientology hasn't overrun google, just the law...

operation clambake

[hether]

If people can just remember those words, they'll find the site right away. Search for that on google and xenu.net comes up first. Of course most people don't know about or won't remember those words, but I remember the site only because of the phrase and the big pictures of the clams on the front of it.

Re: A few random thoughts.....

[King_TJ]

While I have nothing but admiration for the lengths you apparently went to, to make sure you're still allowed to expose the true nature of this "religion" - I also have some doubts as to whether it's even worthwhile to fight the SoC in court.

As far as I can tell, their "religion" revolves around money-making and counts on the power of money to increase their influence and membership.

There's a fundamental problem with any organization that works this way; most people who feel they need to "find religion" are looking for something beyond cash as their saviour.

Sure, these characters can prey on the easily-influenced ... but those types will always be out there, getting taken advantage of by one crooked group or another.

It seems to me, if you're able to fight them in the courts to the point where they're making cash settlement offers, you've already "won" - because you're sapping some of their perceived power (money). I could see refusing the first, or maybe even the second cash settlement offer, but even the 3rd.?

Every time one of their members becomes an ex-member (and most assuredly, it will continue to happen), if they have to pay to shut them up - they're being weakened. Anything else is just playing their favorite game; manipulate who can see and reveal our paperwork.

does anyone want to explain to me

[Anonymous Coward]

how Scientology browbeat the to everyone else
unbrowbeatable IRS into declaring what is obvioulsy
a bargain basement pop-psychology as a religion?

it seemed so strange to me to when I first learned
of this, but that was before Monicagate, the DMCA,
the MS settlements I and II, the 2000 federal election, OJ, and the patents of Amazon.com
and priceline.com.

OK , you think I have answered my own question,
but no, it just doesn't seem as strange as it
used to.

I still find it hard to believe they turned the
IRS into a bunch of knee-knocking white flaggers.

So use Freenet.

[cduffy]

Because of the /. effect xenu.net is now effectively unreachable. Way to go.

There's anti-CoS site on Freenet -- and whenever you access that one, it'll make it more accessible and faster to load for others!

Re:uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

the primary difference is most christian churches will give you their book FOR FREE

they will let you talk to a preacher FOR FREE

many times they will even give you a place to sleep for the night FOR FREE

they have no copyright on their belief system, and dont sue critics into bankruptcy

christian churches for the most part are run by caring people who like to help others and ease suffering, the Co$ is run by brainwashed coporate drones who are programmed to remove your wallet & thats it. they honestly dont care.

im no fan of christian dogma, but i can see how it has helped people, and its not hard to see how they still seek mostly to help people. scientology however seems to have darker intentions beneath the surface. their legal team makes microsoft look like a cuddly charity by comparison.

scientologists are baby eaters

[Anonymous Coward]

all they do is eat babies anyway - bunch of fucking savages

Google should fight fire with fire

[TrebleJunkie]

If Google were smart, here's what Google would do:

*Voluntarily* send a letter to the Church of Scientology explaining that in the interest of good faith and to avoid the risk of violating the DMCA with regard to the CoS's materials, copyrights and trademarks, effective immediatelly, keywords comprising of CoS trademarks will no longer be indexed by Google, and references will no longer be made to linking pages based on those keywords. In addition, the CoS official web sites will no longer be spidered or indexed by Google, and that any attempt to "hack" Googles indexing methods to attempt to get the sites back in the index will be considered itself to be a violation of the DCMA perpetrated against Google by the CoS.

Meaning, basically, that CoS will pretty much be dead as far as Google is concerned.

Which I think would be pretty cool. :)

you have the jebbies backwardes

[hawk]

The Jesuits have no need to target the top: the top seeks *them* out.

hawk, who benefitted massively from eight years of Jesuit education

Final Fantasy Movie

[Anonymous Coward]

It it just me, or do their beliefs sound a bit too much like the Final Fantasy movie ?

"Xenu was supposed to have gathered up all the overpopulation in this sector of the galaxy, brought them to Earth and then exterminated them using hydrogen bombs. The souls of these murdered people are then supposed to infest the body of everyone. They are called "body thetans". On the advanced levels of Scientology a person "audits out" these body thetans telepathically by getting them to re-experience their being exterminated by hydrogen bombs. So people on these levels assume all their bad thoughts and faulty memories are due to these body thetans infesting every part of their body and influencing them mentally. Many Scientologists go raving mad at this point if they have not done so already."

- Taken from xenu.net

Maybe it's time. . .

[jafac]

Maybe I should sell some of my stock options, and take about $1000, and have some cheap T-Shirts printed up with:

"BAN SCIENTOLOGY NOW! - - www.xenu.net"

and donate them to the salvation army. I'd get the tax break, AND hundreds of people walking the street bearing my message. Hey, it worked for DeCSS. . .

Re:Maybe it's time. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome idea! I think you should head over to cafepress and get these available now. You can sell them at cost or donate the profits to Xtended for their legal fees. I'll buy a couple.

Scientology is a dangerous cult

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting anonymously as I really don't need these phsycotic pitbulls after me.

If you local library carries back issues of Time Magazine get the 05/06/91 (mm/dd/yyy) issue:

Cover Story: The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power

Ruined lives. Lost fortunes. Federal crimes. Scientology poses as a religion but is really a ruthless global scam -- and aiming for the mainstream.

This is an excellent article that shows in great detail the lengths that the Scietology cult will go to to continue extracting money from its victims.

Scientology went after the reporter of this article, but Time did not back down.

Scientology is banned in Germany - lumped in with the Nazi's.

Scientology is a crimminial group that exists only to extract money from its victims. Nothing posted on Slashdot concerning the extremes they are willing to go to is an exaggeration.

Re:Scientology is a dangerous cult

[bonch]

"Scientology went after the reporter of this article, but Time did not back down."

Furthermore, the Church recently lost their suit against Time over that article. There is still sanity left in the courts.

Never mind, found a clearinghouse

[Platinum Dragon]

Chris Owen exposes all.

Scientologists? Worse than Christians?

[dh003i]

I am an atheist. I don't believe in any of that religious bullshit. Anyone who has any common sense doesn't.

I've always been weery of Christians forcing their narrow-minded self-depricating views on others. It seems that these nut-case scientologists are even worse.

These people are wack-jobs. Frauds. Crooks. They need to be exposed for what they are and put in jail. The Church of Scientology is no better than the organized mob.

That these wack-jobs use the word "science" to describe their non-sense is even worse. Scientists should sue them for libel and defamation.

New entry to my list of people who would be better off dead:

-Scientologists

Turn the tables

[pdasroo]

Everyone try this. Send a request to Google using a format similar to Scientology's cease and desist letter. Include a list of all sites referencing your last name, community, clubs or organizations you belong to, etc. Claim any such reference is a "copyright violation under the DMCA". Google's position is apparently that it will remove links to sites simply based on a claim of DMCA violation, regardless of the merit of such a claim. How much effort will they expend sorting it all out before they decide to drop this ridiculous policy. Maybe they'll inundate Scientology with follow up letters too! (Bonus!)

Re:Turn the tables

[Aexia]

Unfortunately, you'd be swearing under penalty of perjury that your claims are valid.

F-Karma

[Anonymous Coward]

this was on MetaFilter yesterday and I submitted this later yesterday evening and was rejected. It had the same information and was worded and spellt....spelled correctly. Journalism Major....Why do you take forever to get a frigin story online and then reject ones that have the same information?

They got "archive.org", too

[Animats]

Try Archive.org's archive of Xenu.net.:

• Blocked Site Error.

  Per the request of the site owner, http://xenu.net/index.html is no longer available in the Wayback Machine. Try another request...

US law

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is going to need to move to a free country, such as Holland, if it is going to survive. At the rate they are going the cache is getting to be less and less complete.

Not "now being" used

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientology was the first organization, back in the early and middle '90's, to use copyright law abuse to shut down its critics, on remailers, newsgroups, and the web.

I would opine firmly that they were at the forefront in the design and passage of the DMCA, using front groups and political influence.

A cult, a nasty little money making corporation that hates daylight, because it would destroy their ability to recruit.

Remember Lisa McPherson.

Re:Not "now being" used

[tregoweth]

This really needs to be rated higher than 0; hopefully this particular Anonymous Coward won't mind if I repost:


Scientology was the first organization, back in the early and middle '90's, to use copyright law abuse to shut down its critics, on remailers, newsgroups, and the web.

I would opine firmly that they were at the forefront in the design and passage of the DMCA, using front groups and political influence.

A cult, a nasty little money making corporation that hates daylight, because it would destroy their ability to recruit.

Remember Lisa McPherson.

Re:Not "now being" used

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmmm. Maybe if Disney ever gives up on extending copyright law indefinitely, Scientology will take up the torch. Imagine Tom Cruise crying about the cheap knockoffs of "Risky Business" that will inevitably flood the market sometime around 2050.

What Google should do...

[strags]

... post a large banner on their main page that explains everything. Can you imagine how quickly the Scientologists would back down if Google's front page contains a message along the lines of:

"Certain links have been removed from the Google search engine due to pressure from the church of Scientology. For the full story, click here."

Considering the number of people that hit Google's front page every day, this would generate a phenomenal amount of bad PR - and, more importantly, cause ordinary folks to look more closely into the DMCA.

Google actually has a fantastic opportunity here.

Distributing scientology jibberish?

[dh003i]

Look, I've went to these sites that offer "scientology" documents. Quit frankly, they're not worth the read, though they do inform you of how much BS these wack-jobs are full of and how corrupt the clan/business of scientology is. I started to read some of this crap by Hubbard or whatever. It's even worse than the bullshit in the Bible.

But, if you want to distribute this crap, do it on P2P networks. There's no way to stop P2P distribution of information.

The more I read about these scientology nutjobs, the more they remind me of the KKK and Hitler's Nazi "Supermen".

Take action....

[ImaLamer]

... I know that this may scare some people in "today's world" but this is the sort of thing that we need to take action about.

No one needs to die, but if it means taking google.com down because we are searching "DMCA", "XENU.NET" and "FREEDOM" so be it.

Of course google is innocent so direct your other DDoS attacks where you think they count.

In this "new world" where everyone is so scared why hasn't anyone stood up and done something to stop DMCA et. al.

scientologists, terrorists, nazi's: no diff.

[dh003i]

While the government's trying to fight "terrorism" how about dealing with these wackjobs. Anyone who claims to be an "upper level" scientologist should be detained in holding cells as being a terrorist.

Open Source vs Closed Source Religion ;)

[ziriyab]

I once got into an argument about Islam (I was young and naive) with this dude who told me I was unfit to comment on his (and my former) religion because I wasn't a believer. I think he even quoted some bit of something or other to justify his circular argument.

This seems to be the goal of all religions: to keep their delusions from scrutiny until you're too far in to question anything. However, in order to reach the largest audience possible, they have to distribute their beliefs pretty widely (I had a huge stack of tiny bibles in college courtesy of those bible pushers on campus). Finally, in order to spread, they need financial resources for schools, thinly-veiled charities, presidential elections, &c.

In order to be effective memes, religions need to strike a balance between scrutiny, free distribution, and payment. Most successful ones have evolved into something resembling poorly-commented open source, i.e., free distribution of writings that are so vague that they could mean anything to anyone. They also don't directly force you into paying ("Join the Mandrake Club, pleaaaaase!"), but rely on guilt to get at your wallet.

The $cientologists have taken the closed source approach (copyrighting their clam drivel) with something that resembles micro$oft's new licensing scheme, i.e., "keep paying if you want to stay locked into our proprietary format."

Both methods give the end users the product they want: a false sense of security, order, and purpose in an otherwise chaotic world (e.g., OpenFaith vs. MS Faith), the closed source approach just ends up costing the users more money and keeps them locked in.

I'm only half joking about this, by the way ;)

I'm not happy with the DMCA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Furthermore, I hold no brief for the Scientologists. In fact, I strongly disagree with them in many ways, including organizational and doctrinal matters.

However, my experience has been that there is much more harm than good being done by websites designed to detract from various religious organizations. Critics tend to be even more fanatical and misleading than the groups they criticize.

I am almost ashamed to admit that I bought a copy of Hubbard's "Dianetics" as a young man, from a door-to-door proselytizer. I threw the book out after having it for a short while, as it did not contain the ring of truth.

But, at least I can say that I went to the source, and investigated it directly. I'm glad of this, because in my opinion, religious websites have such a high noise to signal ratio, especially compared to other fields of interest, where the opposite is generally true. So, I prefer to hear a person's reasons for their faith firsthand, and use my own common sense and reasoning abilities to weed out the religious trolls from those who are sincere and are promoting goodwill.

For example, even non-Christians have been compelled to acknowledge the power of the teachings of Jesus. The Hindu leader Mohandas (Mahatma) Gandhi, reportedly told a former viceroy of India: "When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world."

Unfortunately, even some who say they are Christians don't follow this advice.

Re:I'm not happy with the DMCA...

[DavidTC]

Um, that's exactly what xenu.net is doing, handing out the 'teachings' of the 'church'. Or so the CoS claims.

CoS's beliefs don't need mocking. Those sites that make fun of, to pick a common example, the Bible, take a lot of stuff out of context, and show contradictions that were written thousands of years apart, and that only really work if you're one of those people who think all Christians believe the entire thing is 100% literal. I agree, most of those sites are nothing but fluff. They are a good way to shut up someone trying to convert you, but they aren't really that useful. (There are some interesting questions that can be asked about Christianity, like pre-destination, where evil came from, etc. But you usually won't find those on a 'critic' website, and the Jesuits figured all of those out a long time ago. Not the answers, the questions.)

But to make fun of CoS...you can just post their (trade secret) bible. It's literally a sci-fi story. No need for any commentary at all. (Though to be fair use you have to have some.) Hell, the entire thing isn't even 'contradictory', as it was all written at once by one person, it's just plain nonsensical.

And these sites, in addition to showing doctorinal silliness, they show horrible behavior. While some 'Christian critics' bring up things like the Crusades, which obviously have a dubious relationship to anything any Christian church does today, xenu.net posts things like this, which shows how Scientologists reacted to 9/11, and links to where the Canadian government itself said of CoS that its actions were horrible with regard to a legal battle the church got in, or how the church has repeated harrassed its critics with slander.

We're not talking about sites critizing the beliefs, we're talking about sites merely showing the beliefs, and listing their actions. And then, this it is the key, getting sued for it. The sites have no beef with the 'religion' itself. (In fact, there are a few scientologists who have escaped CoS and have started a new church, and they condemn CoS for the same reasons.) The sites have a beef with a church who harrass people, who in fact 'used to' have a stated policy of harrassing people with lawsuits, called 'Fair Game', which they 'discontinued', yet continue to sue people.

Re:I'm not happy with the DMCA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Diantetics? That book doesnt have much to do with the true teachings of scientology. It merely gets people in the door. For 500k you can find out about Xemu and company. Scientology has proven in court that these teachings are indead "trade secrets" of the church. If you indead wanted to know the facts you would have found this out.

too true ....

[taniwha]

If you think Scientology wont do this thing again - they picketted my kids on their way home from primary school with signs claiming I'm a religious bigot (because I exercised my 1st amendment rights and publically protested their spamming of news groups and complained about their human rights abuses - check xenu.net for first hand accounts of their US prison labor camps).

Want a simple way to counter scientology? - tell everyone you know about Xenu. He's the space-alien-devil in the scientology religion, most people think they are wierd but they keep the believing in space aliens thing rather quiet (all the better to pull in new recruits). If "scientology" and "space aliens" become synonomous more people will stay away from them - expect of course the real UFO nutters :-)

What to do, what to do

[praedor]

Well, I have been wanting to setup a webpage, if for no other reason than to learn about the whole thing. Only thing was I had no idea what I wanted to put up. I didn't want to do one of those nasty "this is ME!" pages with my hobbies, pets, family pictures, blah, blah (what ARE you people thinking when you do that?). I now know what I will do. I will put up anti-scientology pages and work towards the goal of getting my pages, with lots of links to the good anti-$cientology pages and information - up on the first page of any google search on "scientology". Perhaps others could also help in this regard.

Put gratuitous links to anti-scientology pages into your pages, regardless of what you pages are actually about. Put as many links for casual browsers to come across as possible to help people get the REAL scoop on $cientology.

I also have all their "censored/copywrited" bullcrap docs on their Theta crap sci-fi. I intend to make them generally available too. Just another way for people to get the stuff that drives those $ci-clowns nutty.

Re: A few random thoughts.....

[lermanet]

point well taken, perhaps I should have said 2 offers.. cause one was more like a nibble, the interest in pursuing it was declined

Litigation with them can be fruitful IF one has the funding and nerves of tempered steel, lives like a monk and doesnt mind having pets killed or a strange animal carcass show up in the kids sandbox...or windows broken on the car...It really is much like the movie "The Insider"

Though being in Scientology is exactly like "The Truman Show"

Your posting shows that you have a clue, that fact shows me that Scientology's days are numbered...

Arnie Lerma Ferengi + Borg = Scientology
I'd prefer to die speaking my mind than live fearing to speak.
The only thing that always works in scientology are its lawyers
The internet is the liberty tree of the new millennium
Secrets are the mortar binding lies as bricks together into prisons for the mind
http://www.lermanet.com- mentioned 4 January 2000 in
The Washington Post's - 'Reliable Source' column re "Scientologist with no HEAD"
You want Bigots? http://members.cox.net/bwarr2/Movie2.html

Christian Thought Process

[Anonymous Coward]

"Your belief in a 'space being' bombing worlds with hydrogen bombs a billion years ago is silly! Your 'religion' is nothing but a cult founded upon childish fantasies. Now excuse me while I pray to the human/divine Son of God who God sent down for us to kill so that we could be saved from hell...or something. Then I have to go watch 'Touched by an Angel' and catalog my collection of Jack Chick comics."

(No, I'm not a Scientologist. I just think it's funny whenever one religion calls the other a 'cult'. To me, all religions are silly, but that's just my opinion.)

Re:Help Spread the Links (Co$ doesnt want you to s

[JonnyBnDC]

Solution: Rename all the pages. Google will then re-index Xenu.net except for the top.

Live event in Mountain View TODAY

[dmarti]

We will be visiting Google's headquarters IN PERSON to search for Xenu information -- with cameras rolling.

Who: The Mountain View, California Xenu Study Group
(This means you)

What: First meeting: "Finding Facts about Xenu on the Net with Google"

Where: Meet at Dana St. Roasting Company, 744 Dana Street,
Mountain View.
Then, travel to Google HQ.

When: 3:45 PM, Thursday, March 21, 2002

Why: To make sure that accurate information about Xenu is available through Internet search engines.

What to bring: 1. another video camera (we already have at least one, but could use some more shots)

2. Your pen and paper for taking notes about how to find good Xenu (and Scientology) sites.

Contact: Don Marti -- dmarti@zgp.org

Re:Live event in Mountain View TODAY

[MasterD]

mod this parent up! it is really important to let google know it matters that search be uncorrupted.

If you can't make it there in person, as Don pointed out, you can protest from the comfort of your own home:

while (true) do lynx -dump http://google.com/search?query=where+the+fuck+is+x enu+dot+net+you+chickenshit+stanford+assholes > /dev/null; done

Re:Live event in Mountain View TODAY

[Dolly_Llama]

Your idea is interesting, but storming Google with cameras in hand smacks somewhat of intimidation, something I'm sure Google is already feeling from CoS. Why squeeze them from both sides? They need our support and cooperation. Google is the "good guys" on the web today perhaps more than anyone (Sorry CowboyNeal)

Re:Live event in Mountain View TODAY

[dmarti]

I strongly disagree. There are things Google could do in this matter to earn "Support and cooperation" -- but immediately and silently censoring what was one of the top results for a search on "Scientology" isn't one of them.

Rick Ross and his CoS References

[blunte]

Here's a site to compliment the Xenu site: Rick Ross's Site

anon.penet.fi

[jth1234567]

For me, one of the saddest events in internet history, was in 1996 when the church of scientology managed to get anon.penet.fi closed. Back then it was a very popular and widely used (and pretty much the only one) anonymous remailer, with hundreds of thousands of users all over the world.

The events leading to it's closing can be read at :

The Church of Scientology vs. anon.penet.fi

and at the Penetron site itself :

Penetron

The shutdown hit newsgroup posters worst, since especially many *.support.* posters were using the service (for obvious reasons). At the time there weren't really any other semi-anonymous web based email/news providers, and it took a long while until some other similar, much smaller scale, services appeared.

These days, it's hard _not_ to find a way to post/email more or less anonymously, but back then, anon.penet.fi provided an invaluable service, and the stupid courts here in Finland let the scientologists to destroy it all.

/. scientology, save a life

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, if every slashdotter went and visited the scientology web site (reload a few times while your there, to make sure you got the latest info), we might just end up slashdotting the site, and keeping a few other succeptible folks from getting lured in today.

Of course, there's always the danger that the gullible, sleep deprived, caffeine crazed slashdot crowd would end up flocking to the religion. But in a darwinian way, that might not be a bad cleansing of the readership. And having thousands of out of work .COM'ers sign up might be just the thing to dilute the power of the "church"; they could sign over all of their millions in share certificates.

Of course, this post is strictly a lame attempt at humour, and no one would actually go and visit the site because of it.

Re:/. scientology, save a life

[Anonymous Coward]

How about moderating this up :)

Re:/. scientology, save a life

[Anonymous Coward]

D'oh! It got moderated down. I guess we *really* know who's in charge around here. Damn, scientology rules slashdot, and the entire steel industry is gay. What next.

Hmmmm. Let me see if I can get modded up.

Scientology is good. It solves all of life's problems. The only people against scientology are bitter misfits.

There, did that help?

Re:/. scientology, save a life

[Anonymous Coward]

because you're trying to slashdot slashdot.
theres no conspiracy in this thread, just morons :)

Hey Scientologists! Censor THIS!

[AgentTim3]

All you motherfuckers are going to pay! You are the ones who are the
ball lickers! We're going to fuck your mothers while you watch and cry
like little whiney bitches. Once we get to Hollywood and find those
Scientologist fucks who is making the movie, we are going to make them eat
our shit. Then shit out our shit and then eat their shit that's made
up of our shit that we made them eat. And then all you motherfucks are
next!

I sent a letter

[Anonymous Coward]

I sent the following text to comments@google, with the letter quoted underneath it.

To whom it may concern,

It is with considerable dismay that I have heard that Google has sent out the letter reproduced in part below.

I am a longtime user and fan of Google. I regard Google as being the best search engine available for the web. I regard Google's action in this case as extremely unfortunate, and as setting a remarkably dangerous precedent.

If Google will remove an item after a threat with the DMCA, then Google's days of being useful as a search engine are numbered. Google has just told ANY interest group with an axe to grind that they can delist ANY website at will from Google.

In the interests of full disclosure, clearly Google needs to inform all their users that the results of any Google search they run can and will be subject to the bias of any and all criminal, racist, bigoted, homophobic or socipathic organisation who find something on the web that doesn't agree with their worldview.

:%s/Christianity/Patriotism/g

[rhizome]

It's just another instance of people wanting to be led, rather than living their own lives and making up their own minds. Subsuming thought under a static structure like religion, patriotism, sports, etc.

Oh...

[eniacpx]

piss...

Bare-Faced Messiah - The Banned Hubbard Bio

[meehawl]

Bare-Faced Messiah

There are those who still believe that Hubbard died years earlier and that his death was covered up by the messengers while they consolidated their control over the church. There are those who still believe that Hubbard will soon be entering another body, or might even have done so already, prior to resuming his position as the head of Scientology. There are those who still believe that, for all his faults, Hubbard made a significant contribution to helping his fellow men. And there are those who now believe, sadly, that they were the unwitting victims of one of the most successful and colourful confidence tricksters of the twentieth century.

Here you go

[quantaman]

"However, Scientology was on such shaky grounds, that they settled with us out of court. They promised not to hold us responsible for the user's website, and in return we would give out the user's name and address so they could sue him. With the user's voluntary consent we provided Scientology with his name and address, thereby relieving Xtended Internet from its conflict between privacy laws and blocking a possible lawsuit from happening."

Jack Valenti,
15503 Ventura Blvd.
Encino, California 91436
(818) 995-6600
(Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA))

Freenet has all their upper level teachings

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally a good use for Freenet. One of the "Freesites" has all of the upper level teachings on it that you can download. I looked at some of it and it was the goofey'st stuff I've ever seen.

Re:Freenet has all their upper level teachings

[paganizer]

Whoops. I didn't see this and posted just about the same thing. the Freenet link is: freenet:SSK@WRhGF3h0ijFh1eVJnFu%7EH9OyIpAPAgM/anti scient/5//

At least there's no astroturf here

[connorbd]

I'm surprised -- I did a little gutter surfing (i.e. surfing at -1) and found little or no identifiable CoS astroturfing in this thread... it's quiet, too quiet...

/Brian

Some petititons...

[kayser_soze]

If we really want to do something about this, let's sign some petitions and let our voice be heard in as many ways as we can.

I, for one, am sick of letting my rights be trampled on. If you feel the same, *do something about it*.

http://www.petitiononline.com/cofs1/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/nixdmca/petition.htm l

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." - Rene Descartes

Just go here:

[Fjandr]

freenet:SSK@WRhGF3h0ijFh1eVJnFu~H9OyIpAPAgM/antisc ient/5//
Though it requires you to be running a FreeNet node. But you should be anyway. :)

Went thru their testing...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was bored one day in downtown Worcester MA - and decided to go into their storefront and see what they would do. They offered to test me, and I sat down and answered some number of questions - a sort of personality inventory. What I got back was a card with each of my performances on maybe 6 or 7 indices. They were each a point on a scale that went from zero in the middle to plus an minus some number - let's say 20. They even played connect he dots with 7 unrelated, non-serial values - a big NO-NO in statistics, but boy, it sure magnifies the differences!

Here's the kicker - one or two of them were very low, and they I asked a few questions, and found out that those were not raw scores, but that the points were actually a deviation score - a measure of scatter - of the 7 things they 'measured'. The midline represented the average, and then the others either went high or low above or below the line. So it looked like I was deficient in one or two measures. Well, they offered a course to correct the really bad one(s). Great idea! Until you realize that after that course, they'll retest you, and as long as the scale is a deviation score, and rescaled, SOMETHING is going to be on the bottom - and surprise! They'll have another course to sell you to fix THAT thing.

Brilliant, silly, unscientific, and designed to use fast talking to take advantage of the average person's ignorance of statistics.

-j

L. Ron Hubbard was a liar

[Eric Damron]

I have a friend who was deeply into Scientology back in 1974. He actually signed a contract with them, which basically made him their slave for life. Of course the contract would never stand up in court but it really showed me what this cult was all about.

If you read the claims that L Ron Hubbard makes about what he's done during his life and you start totaling up the years, you will learn that the man was a liar. Either that or he was able to use some kind of time warping because they don't add up.

Started on a dare?

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember hearing that Hubbard started all this on a dare. Anyone else know if this is anything like accurate?

And if the guy could write decent science fiction you might cut him some slack - but that movie? *shivers* Makes Plan 9 look good.

Looks like xenu.net is back up on Google

[Mazel#Tov]

Something I'm going to do is a little bit of googlebombing myself. I have about 2500 dynamically generated pages on my site, without ?x=3&y=4 query strings (yay mod_rewrite!) adding to the mess and google carefully picks them up regularly.

So, I'm going to add "In my opinion, <a href="http://www.xenu.net/"> Scientology </a> is a cult you should avoid. Following the preceding link will help you learn more." at the bottom of each page. That should help a little bit. Maybe if enough people did that, the ranking would go up some?

Don Marti's going to sort them out.

[Anonymous Coward]

www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5925

Of course when I type "xenu net" in Google, OC
pops right up:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1 &o e=ISO-8859-1&q=xenu+net

Remember Slashdot Was Censored Already

[RexRuther]

I can't point to a link, but I recall /. removing a post because of pressure from the CoS.

I think it was the only one that was ever pulled.

It's time to fight back

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientology is a highly damaging cult that's fucked a great many people up, and continues to mess about with our free speech rights etc. Surely there couldn't be a more deserving target for crackers, DDoS worms, phreaks, and everyone else here with skills who is angered by this.

Don't just rant about it, do something about it. Look how active they are in attacking us; it's time to retaliate.

(Above views are of course fictional and do not constitute incitement to commit a crime in any way shape or form)

Found it

[RexRuther]

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/03/16/125622 6&mode=thread

This is happening on all of them!

[LordXarph]

UPDATE: This seems to be a concerted effort to remove xenu.net from ALL search engines. The site is no longer in the Yahoo! Directory or archive.org. "Per request of the site owner" my ass.

-Lx?

Scientologists threatened me as well

[MrEricSir]

Recently, a laywer for Scientology sent me a legal threat. Read the story here.

Move to Germany

[Alde]

Why not move the server to Germany? At least there you'll not get persecuted as much... Or even Belgium, France, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Span, Israel and Mexico? Germany-Info has more info on that. But it's really funny to see all the Scientologists' propeganda against Germany by doing a Google Search.

Re:Move to Germany

[zinjifar]

The server itself is not in any way blocked, despite numerous attacks.
It's specifically Google's 'links' and database itself that's the object of this particular barratrous Scientology attack.

Anyone who wants their own 'HoGram' is welcome to use any of the images at:

http://laugh.at/scientology

The animated poodle seems to be the most popular for Scientology's legal staff; and of course, put links to http://www.xenu.net on any sites you have handy.

Again! xenu.net is alive and well and the Google 'flap' revolves around their cowardly caving in to Scientology demands that they stop mentioning it.

Zinj

Scientologists are quite the nasty fuckers

[espilce]

This happened to one of my mother's friends several years ago. Not only was he sued, harassed, and threatened, the CoS strongarmed several anonymous remailers and ISPs to unlawfully release information so they could trace the usenet postings back to him. Pretty dirty shit, I believe they even went as far as harassing his son. more information can be found here, it is amazing the lengths that these science fiction drones will go to in order to keep their "religion" so secret.

booo scientology!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a company that is literally ran by $cientologists. They are dirty dirty people!!!

They require us to take these courses that are based off of L. Ron Hubbards business strategy and they are WEIRD. They portray L. Ron Hubbard as a god in these "business" books.

Another weird thing is how we all have to use this weird terminology around the office. The word "hat" means "job".. My "hat" is to fix stuff, for example. That's just one example, there are a lot of things, but this is how the religion works too.

They require their followers (or whatever they're called) to take courses, which costs thousands of dollars. They have a lot of their own terminology, which is meant to make people become interested in $cientology.

I think level 8 is the highest rank in their religion and when you reach that point you supposedly have mind control powers. You learn about the "lord" xenu (who is an alien who put us all here on earth, which is a slave planet.. or something) by Level 3.

Their so called "religion" (i call it a cult) is very secretive until you join. You're not supposed to know what xenu is until Level 3, and the reason is, is anybody that isn't retarded would realize that us being put here by a god named xenu from some other planet is absurd. By Level 3 you're already so brainwashed that you'll believe that shit.

I picked most of this info up from either people here at work or operation clambake (which is the same as xenu.net).

Posting anonymously cuz I don't wanna lose my job :p. Scientologists are fucken stupid!!!

Re:The best Scientology info is in his OTHER books

[teamhasnoi]

Why worry about the Scientologists using the DCMA, when I can be taken out by a /. moderator?

Ontopic as usual....

Re:Scientology, the US cult

[frost22]

Heelooo, Americaaaaans, anybody at home ?

Frankly, folks, Scientology is a a product you you guys contuinue unleashing onto the world. It is your legal system that protects them and gives them power and shielding. It is your tax exemption (obtained by blackmaling the IRS into submission) that guarantees their funding, and its your bycantine and imperialist court system that helps them to harass people into submission even abroad.

In most civilized countries Scientology leaders sit in or barely stay out of jail, but in America, he Government even has the audacity to complain to other countries about them prosecuting Scientology crimes, actually claiming human rights violations.

Frankly, face it: Scientology will be there, oppressing and destroying everyone who disagrees with them, as long as you allow your judges and your policemen to act as their willing servants.

Go clean up your act, Americans.

'scientologist' is Webster for 'asshole'

[maxpublic]

There are assholes and there are assholes. Scientologists, however, define the word 'asshole'. They should be right there in Websters along with a color glossy of goatse.cx and a pic of Bill G.

This 'church' is really nothing more than a scam for making money and getting the brainwashed drones to put out for 'church officials'. It's a cult, a con, a terrorist organization - all harbored under the umbrella of 'religion' in the U.S. Criticize it at your peril, for these lunatics will do whatever they have to to silence their opponents. The legality of their actions is of little importance to them.

I spit on the Scientologists and everything they stand for. They are scum of the worst sort, deserving of nothing but contempt and ridicule. They'd be a damned joke if they weren't so dangerous. As is, even criticizing them is enough to attract months of harrassment, online and off.

I only wish someone had put a bullet in Hubbard's skull before he came up with this scheme....

Max

Re:'scientologist' is Webster for 'asshole'

[Anonymous Coward]

i hear ya. you tell it like it is..

I work with these bastards all day (see last reply), the executives here are scientologists and I hate them all. I want to pop all their tires. "Drone" is a perfect word to describe these people, they are retarded and nothing more than a robot.

Clearwater Florida is the scientologist capitol of the world. There seems to always be at least ONE executive gone in Florida all the time. Right now our head boss lady is there, being reprogrammed. She's been out of the office for the last 5 months... can't wait to see how she acts when she gets back!

They care about nothing but money..

Lies, cheats... M$ anyone?

[dfiguero]

Funny how after reading some stuff about how
Co$ lies and makes up stories I was quickly
reminded about M$

OT III

[Anonymous Coward]

OT III Info (level 3)

A German Researcher into Scientology

[Anonymous Coward]

There is an interesting and comprehensive compilation of what kinds of research material are available here:

http://www.uni-marburg.de/religionswissenschaft/jo urnal/mjr/frenschkowski.html

as published in the marpurg journal of religion.

He treats the issue from the viewpoint of an academic trying to research the church, as he finds it. as he notes; "Being a Protestant theologian, I regard it as highly undesirable that Scientology grows. I regard Hubbard's and Christian views on man, on the deity, on salvation as not reconcilable." Even so he tries to approach it with academic objectivity.

One note he makes is the german atttitude toward scientology is as often based on being anti-american, along with other things.

One of the MAIN reasons for encouraging FREENET

[paganizer]

This is one of the MAIN reasons Freenet is important; after installing A freenet Node, and following the link:
Freenet:SSK@WRhGF3h0ijFh1eVJnFu%7EH9OyIpAPA gM/anti scient/5//
You can read all you want to read about Scientology. The only people they can go after are the people who run permanent nodes and the developers (http://www.freenetproject.org).
Freenet is still pretty flawed, and the current freedom of speech inquisitors surely hate it...but it's subjects like this that really show it's merits.

Scientology == Evil

[SkewlD00d]

There's something wrong with a religion that might as well be considered a terrorist group. They're fricking insane, end of story.

Re:Scientology == Evil

[zinjifar]

Scientology is *indeed* a 'Terrorist Group', although, it prefers that its terror not be publicly visible.
The 'Church' of Scientology prefers to put on a happy-faced 'we're just a Religion!' mask, and only practice its Hubbard-mandated 'Shudder them into silence' without public notice.

Admittedly, this 'Stealth' terror, as directed from the Hemet home of the 'maximum leader', David Miscavige, doesn't talibanishly push its face into the awareness of the 'wogs'/Garden-Variety-Humans as much or as obnoxiously as a 'Trade Towers' destruction... but in point of fact, the home of the para-military 'Sea Org', who sign 'Billion Year' contracts is a terrorist base kept secret from even the 'faithful'.

Picture at:

http://members.tripod.com/zinjifar0/gold.jpg

Many reports of it as an armed camp are available, although... thanks to Google's cowardice, possibly harder to find.

Scientology, by *dogma* is a terrorist organization, although, it prefers to terrorize its victims individually.

Zinj

A Coward Dies a Thousand Deaths

[zinjifar]

Google's willingness to abandon specifically DMCA granted exemptions for 'directories' and 'non-service-providers/hosts' from DMCA regulations is a blanket invitation to 'complaints' from every nutball in the universe to destroy *all* excuse a 'Search Engine' has for existing.

From ARS:

Andreas can indeed send them a 'counter notification' and should.
*But*, Google by claiming that its 'links' and 'directory' are subject to DMCA, is itself, despite *specific* exemptions in the DMCA, asking to be destroyed by any and all who prefer their victims incapable of finding 'information', thus removing any value it might have as a'Search Engine'.

Google's cowardice is real, even if it's primarilly the unwillingness to stand up for its own rights as a 'directory' rather than a 'service provider' or 'host'.

Zinj

Google has demonstrated it's short-sighted mercenary willingness to lemmingly wander over the cliff of opportunism.

*Especially* considering that the http://www.xenu.net site itself is still available *because* the 'claims' by the so-called Church of Scientology are as bogus as its Dogma.

Zinj

So I wonder...google ads

[svallarian]

I wonder if it would be possible to buy a google ad on the "Scientology" keyword and point it to xenu.net ???

Thats why.

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy anwser;

1. Biggest stock of thermonuclear weapons.
2. Control of the world economy.
3. Largest military in the world. Larger than the next 9 world military combined.

Petition for DOJ Investigation

[Black Pete]

Well, well, well... upon hearing this news, my first thought was of disgust - disgust that Google would help Scientology censor xenu.net into oblivion. However I couldn't help but wonder... who leaked the news to the media? If it was Google who informed the media about this while complying with the law, then I must admit it's a nice way to stir up the controversy and to inform people who/what Scientologists are really like. So.. who leaked? :)

While lurking around on Xenu.net, I saw that there's a petition to ask the DOJ to investigate the Church[sic] of Scientology. I signed it. How about you?

DOJ Petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/cofs1/petition.html

Getting on the soapbox for a second to rant a bit(since everyone else is doing it, why not?)

A comparision was made between Scientology and Al-Quaeda earlier on in this forum. Please! Let's be realistic here... Al-Quaeda isn't that bad! :) At least they're honest when they say "Death to America!" while trying to kill you. With Scientology... well... they infiltrate. They smile and pretend to be your friend while reaching for your wallet. They play with your emotions. If you catch them in the act and try to speak out about it, they try (and usually succeed) to destroy your life. This is even in their DOCTRINE for crying out loud! They're the ultimate mind-fuckers.

From dictionary.com:

terrorism Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm) n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

So... if Scientology doesn't fall under this definition, just what IS terrorism anyway?

Look What's Back

[Anonymous Coward]

What's THIS?

Is that what I think it is?

SCIENTOLOGISTS ARE TERRORISTS & where is GeeDu

[Anonymous Coward]

You're either with us or you're with the Scientologists. Go on Ashcroft, Dept of Homeland Security, and flag wavers. Do your job. You figure it out.

MP3.com...El Queso Allstars.

[Slaveway]

$cientology was able to force MP#.com to remove all of this bands music critical of $scientology.
Very funny band out of Texas.

Re:SCIENTOLOGISTS ARE TERRORISTS & where is Ge

[zinjifar]

Most Scientologists are *not* terrorists.
Scientology as an organization certainly is; by dogma.

Most Scientologists are not aware of the crimes of the cult they belong to; are decent, and wonderful human beings, although, their willingness to believe that they are 'homo novus' may be a little hard to take :)

Most Scientologists are unaware of the actions of their 'Church'. Mostly it takes years before they're even willing to look at the 'crimes' of Scientology.

The crimes exist. As does the 'mind-control' that protects the 'Cult' from recognition by even its own adherents.

Zinj

Wow

[nyri]

This is funny. First, xenu.net appeared on the search result. Second, news section above search results pointed to CNET article about google removing the xenu.net pages.

Nyri

Petition against Scientology

[chrisvdp74656]

http://www.petitiononline.com/cofs1/petition.html

Sign it!!!!!!!!!

Re:Scientology, the US cult

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, LRH learned it from the best: Aliester Crowley.

A Brit; so don't go blaiming us for it all.

ENRON Hubbard....hmmm?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Put 'em together and what do you get?

Highly paid executives.

A suicide in a car!

Unknown zillions of dollars *zip* Gone!

Management micromanaging employees money.

Dissapearing Kenneth Ley.

Whitehouse connections?

Wow, I could go on and on.

Where are all the Scientologists on this thread?

[Catbeller]

Where are all the Scientologists on this thread?

Usually the Office of Special Affairs (intelligence/spies) will drown the offending site in pro-Scio posts. Come on, OSA, where are ya?

Chicken? Thousands of people who know what you really do are waiting. Kind of like walking into the middle of a freeway at rush hour.

Xenu, baby.

Scientologists are Moderating! Read at -1!

[Anonymous Coward]

They are modding the most damning comments down. Read -1, Newest first!

Suppressive squirrels and other silliness

[Mandelbrute]

I think it's time to class the scientology a "dangerous sect"

If you consider the mystical ramblings as window dressing the whole thing is just a confidence trick. It's certainly hard to take anyone that calls their critics "suppressive squirrels" seriously - however they have impoverished many and contributed directly to the deaths of others. They would die out (literally) in my country without fresh recruits. Skin cancer is very common here, and scientologists don't let their members get treatment for cancer - they are just supposed to do expensive mediation classes to fix it.

Hmm...

[RumGunner]

I just went to google, searched for xenu.net, and it showed up. If it was unlisted, it seems to be listed again.

Re:Hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus Christ. This is my first visit on slashdot and I always thought (when reading about it) that this is some elitist, unix-guru oriented website.
Clearly not. The lack of clue in comments here is frightening. Some 30% of you don't understand this short article.
Let me explain in simple words, RumGunner :

1.) If you look for xenu.net (anti-scientology site) - it means you already know about xenu.net existance.

2.)If you know about xenu.net existance - you don't need to look for the link to it. You just type the adress in your browser, don't you ?

Do you follow me ? Good.

3.) If you look for the word "scientology" on the other hand (because you are lost in life, desparate, don't know what it is, or are simply stupid - like some visitors here) then first pages with results show only scientology owned sites. Wheras few days ago you got anti-scientology site (xenu.net)in 3rd position.

4.)Google manually tweaked their search results - in order to block anti-scientology site from appearing in those results - despite their "page rank" technology placing it in 3rd position.

Is that clear now ?

P.S. Anonymus Coward ? - what a hilarious way of sugesting me to register here :-) Well, thanks, but I don't think so.

Re:Hmm...

[Constant]

Ah, damn it. I went on and registered. It's no fun to flame others anonymously ;-) Also, pretty cool site you have here, actually. (but where's spull chucker ?)

The real question...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there any way to rid ourselves of them? Really?

I see no viable way of 'attacking' them whatsoever; save perhaps in public relations. Is there any way to start a large PR campaign in which Scientology's true nature can be exposed?

Re:The real question...

[Placido]

You've actually hit the nail on the head. Scientology is pretty much all about PR. To attack them one would need to attack their PR machine.
1. Counter-information and propaganda.
Spread the word. Xenu.net is an exact example of attacking Scientology.
2. Identification. Make sure that all their activities are known about by a)you b)the general public. If there's a symposium and it's held by the Scientology Cult then blaze big letters by the entrance: Stop Scientology.
Highlight believers in the cult. Doesn't mean they're totally bad people but it will indicate where their priorities lie and you can track their activities.
3. Prevention. Stop their propoganda and recruitment drives. A broad category in which you would use the tools available to counter Scientology's methods. They've got a website? Block it using the DMCA. Contact their ISP. Talk to google. Create sites which rank higher than theirs. They're handing out leaflets? Hand out your own alongside. They're hosting a seminar? Host your own, cheaper, better.

Naturally the biggest problem with all this is the dedication and resources required. The whole system would have to generate it's own revenue. I would recommend running a system similar to Scientology to generate money. Actually the BIGGEST problem is that by doing this you could very easily end up just like them.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

come on guys, that's funny.

Re:Where are all the Scientologists on this thread

[Anonymous Coward]

sciensitter is probably blocking them

Oh Tea Three 4 all 2 C

[Anonymous Coward]

OT III [Operating Thetan Level 3] BODY THETANS by L. Ron Hubbard The head of the Galactic Federation (76 planets around larger stars visible from here) (founded 95,000,000 years ago, very space opera) solved overpopulation (250 billion or so per planet - 178 billion on average) by mass implanting.. He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack (Earth) and put an H-Bomb on the principal volcanos (incident II) and then the Pacific area ones were taken - in boxes to Hawaii and the Atlantic area ones to Las Palmas and there "packaged". His name was Xenu. He used renegades. Various misleading data by means of circuits etc was placed in the unplants. When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people) captured him after six years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. "They" are gone. The place (Confederation) has since been a desert. The length and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc) anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been dispensed with by my tech development. One can freewheel through the implant and die unless it is approached as precisely outlined. The "freewheel" (auto-running on and on) lasts too long, denies sleep etc and one dies. So be careful to do only Incidents I and II as given and not plow around and fail to complete one thetan at a time. In December 1967 1 know someone had to take the plunge. I did and emerged very knocked out, but alive. Probably the only one ever to do so in 75,000,000 years. I have all the data now, but only that given here is needful. One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or to the body. One has to clean them off by running incident II and Incident I. It is a long job, requiring care, patience and good auditing. You are running beings. They respond like any preclear. Some large, some small. Thetans believed they were one. This is the primary error. Good luck. * * * For the purpose of clarity, by BODY THETAN is meant a thetan who is stuck to another thetan or body but is not in control. A THETAN is, of course, a Scientology word using the Greek theta which was the Greek symbol for thought or life. An individual being such as a man is a thetan, he is not a body and he does not think because he has a brain. A CLUSTER is a group of body thetans crushed or hold together by some mutual bad experience. ---------- Character of Body Thetans Body Thetans are just Thetans. When you get rid of one he goes off and possibly squares around, picks up a body or admires daisies. He is in fact a sort of cleared Being. He cannot fail to eventually, if not at once, regain many abilities. Many have been asleep for the last 75,000,000 years. A body Thetan responds to any process any Thetan responds to. Some body Thetans are suppressive. A suppressive is out of valence in R6. He is in valence in Incident I almost always. One can't run a human being on these two incidents since human beings are composites and would not be able to run the lot. Aside from that, non-clears are way below awareness required to even find these Incidents. Huge amounts of charge have already been removed from the case and the body thetans by Clearing and OT I and OT II to say nothing of engrams and lower grades. Awareness is proportional to the charge removed from the case. Although a human is a composite being there is only one I (that is you) who runs things. Body thetans just hold one back. You will continue to be you. You, inside, can of course separate out body thetans and so solo auditing is the answer. How good do you have to be to run body thetans off? Well, if you didn't skip your grades, Clearing and OT II particularly, you. should be able to'command body thetans easily. * * * Incident II is over 36 days long. Capture on other planets was weeks or months before the implant. Those on Teegeeack (Earth) were just blown up except for Loyal officers who were (shortly before the explosion on Earth) rounded up. Do not scan through the duration of 36 days. The volcanic explosion on Earth to the point where "the pilot" says he is mocking it up is only a few days. Sequence of Incident II for thetans on another planet - 1. Capture (being shot), 2. freezing, 3. transport to Teegeeack (sometimes via a relay point), 4. being placed near a volcano, 5. beginning implant up to "the pilot", 6. various picture sequences,, 7. the 7s and C.C. and OT II materials, 8. 36 days of picture implants which give a vast array of materials and three explanations for the bombing, 9. transport to Hawaii or Las Palmas for packaging up into clusters. The pictures contain God, the Devil, angels, space opera, theaters, helicopters, a constant spinning, a spinning dancer, trains and various scenes very like modern England. You name it, it's in this implant we call in its entirely "R6"- if one was a Loyal Officer on Teegeeack, the sequence was (1) capture (2) number 5 above on. If one was a citizen of Teegeeack there was only number 5 on. The material given at the various "volcanos' was longer or shorter, but dovetailed into the same sequence of pictures. We have the whole text but it is needless. People who feel dizzy have gotten into the spinning part. Incident I occurred about 4 quadrillion years ago plus or minus. it is very much earlier than Incident II which occurred only 75 million years ago (a bit less). Incident II is only peculiar and general on this planet and nearby stars, whereas Incident I is to be found on all thetans. ---------- The Basic on BT's I've isolated a way a thetan comes to be stuck to another thetan. This gives the basis of clusters and having BT's. A thetan collides with another. That one makes a picture of being collided with. Other BT's get stuck to the picture. The moment of actual contact of thetans was brief but the picture (containing a stop or withdraw) tends to be permanent. Thetans then get the idea they can be permanently stuck as they see pictures of it happening. Thus we get the concept of a "black theta body". This would be actual BT's stuck to a thetan plus pictures of BT's stuck to a thetan. An answer to all this is to find the first picture a thetan made of contacting another thetan. If not at once available the earliest instance of a thetan contacting (colliding, running into, attacking) another thetan could be achieved by R3R on being suddenly hit with clusters or strange beings. The idea is to find and run the "first picture" one made of another thetan. This opens another way to "blow off" BT'S - run R3R on a BT to the first picture the BT ever made of another thetan. ---------- Instructions Locate by meter read or an area of pressure, a body thetan or group (cluster). Run Incident II. If the BT does not blow off or 'the group break up and blow, then run Incident I on individual BT's. Each will blow off with an FIN. When you can find no more on which to run Incident I's, once wore locate a pressure area or by meter read on looking over body run another Incident II. Then Incident 1's on any. Incident II made clusters of BT's. Severe impacts and experiences ALSO make clusters. (See the data called "Milazzo" in this pack.) Those who do not leave on running the impact or its chain will leave when Incident I Is run on them. Incident II sometimes forms gigantic clusters. In such there is a leader, an alternate leader and several (eight to eighteen) more. These were all implanted in different volcanic areas with fractions of the nain 36 day implant and then "packaged" in Las Palmas or Hawaii. Thus if you run Incident II as far as "the pilot" it blows up or loosens up and those who don't go away can be run on Incident I's. Do not speak your commands. Just "intend" them. A BT controls easily. BT's can be ARC broken by rough or careless auditing. You can also run an incident II on a BT and he doesn't blow, but you accidentally run in Incident I on another one and leave the first still there. The remedy is to run Incident I's on anything you find. A very SP BT can be run on grades and Power and should then respond to Incident II and Incident I. After a BT leaves, some other BT may copy him or the incident just run. If you have found a cluster (pressure area) that does not respond or disintegrate to Incident II running, get Dianetic auditing, listing "What impact or incident would cause a cluster?" and R3R on the items found. Then do more Incident I's to clean up the strays with solo. This is a refined "Milazzo". There are hundreds of BT's you will find. If you find none, get audited on Dianetics in general and as above (impact list), and if you still find none, get a Review GF40 and handle all items, then go back to solo. If you find only one or two, get the Dianetic impact list. done. All "none on OT III" cases were later found loaded. Do Incident II and Incident I's on what you can find to begin with. You will do fine. Good hunting. Certain "buttons" have to be gotten in where running a thetan through incidents. The EFFORT TO STOP the motion hangs up the action and gives a stuck picture. One gets the EFFORT TO STOP off and the scene races through. The EFFORT TO WITHDRAW is important also and hangs up the action and creates a vacuum. RUSH, PROTEST* NOT-IS, SUPPRESS are also present. These were actions - thoughts - the thetan had during the Incident and are picked up only when the incident doesn't run well. Sometimes two "buttons" such as STOP and WITHDRAW are in combination. Thetans in the body may obsessively copy the pictures of other thetans. Therefore you can find it seems that the thetan who just left is still there because there is a picture left. Spot the fact that someone else copied it and it usually goes. If you do an S & D on a body thetan be sure you give the right item to the right thetan. ---------- Cross Auditing When one runs Incident I out of one thetan and then Incident 11 out of another (thinking it was the first one) one can get a partially run body thetan who won't blow, but who may start to go on through the whole of R6 automatically (since the basic-basic Incident I is not run, yet Incident II is). One can get quite ill doing this as the illness in R6 can turn on. One can also "feel no wish to audit". All "no desire to audit" is some large blunder on a case. The way you can run Incident I out of one thetan and Incident 11 out of another is rather easy. one fails to notice the first one blow on having Incident I run and runs Incident 11 on another. As a matter of data, the only trouble in a III OT run is running an Incident I on one thetan and an Incident II on another, thinking it was the first one. A pre-OT can freewheel into R6 if you run only an incident II. You can stop a freewheel at once by running Incident I off the same thetan you ran the Incident II on that started a freewheel. Freewheel means that the PC goes on automatic continuous run. Incident II is R6 75,000,000 years ago. Incident I is about 4 quadrillion years ago. Both, all thetans on this planet and 21 nearby stars have in common. All thetans in the universe have incident I. Only those in this old Confederation have Incident II and R6. All C.C. and OT II materials are in R6 75,000,000 years ago. These are followed by 36 days worth of motion pictures - God, Devil, space opera, trains, cars, helicopters, crashes, stage etc. This R6 is 75,000,000 years ago and this planet and Confederation. If the volcano bit is run as per III directions but the Incident I Is not run on the same thetan, R6 begins to run off on automatic, the Being can't sleep for days, the body dies. That's the way it was designed. ---------- Overrun on III The only way you can get a read on "Overrun on III" is to have accidentally run Incident I out, and then later run it out again on the same thetan or make a similar blunder. Example: One flattens Incident I by several passes on a body thetan. This body thetan for some reason (mostly because Incident 11 was then not run) does not fly off. Then, not noticing, one again finds the same thetan and once more seeks to run Incident 1. One then gets, in answer to the question "Overrun on III?" a lot of reads and overrun phenomena. The remedy is to find out WHO was overrun and get the charge off by that action. One then runs Incident 11 on that thetan or in any event, by getting off the charge of "overrun", letting the thetan depart. Just because one's meter reads "Overrun an III" is no reason to attest. Find out who was. lt's almost always a body thetan. A BT can be overrun past erasure. This fact sometimes causes a solo auditor to believe OT Ill is overrun. If he asks "Is OT III overrun?" he may get a read and blowdown. This is actually usually just one BT or cluster that is overrun. The remedy is discovering and indicating the point of overrun. And carry on with OT III. ---------- Running OT III When running OT III the solo auditor handles body thetans as he would any other PC, for the general idea is to run them standardly and not ARC Break them. He does not scan through anything in order to find body thetans. When a solo auditor can find no more body thetans he can attest, or run a pressure area down and handle as per his running Instructions. The pre-OT could be exterior and the Interiorization processes can be run in Review to help him through. Here are three reasons why a pre-OT might have trouble whilst running BT's on Incident II - (1) It is the wrong area; (2) it is not the volcano of the BT being run; (3) it is not an Incident II, but another incident of a different date. Check (1) and (2) If you are having any difficulty in running Incident 11 and handle by locating the correct area or finding the volcano of the BT being run. if it is not a II, simply check for the date and if different run it-. ---------- OT III Errors Amongst OT III errors are "a BT run on Incident I fails to blow". There are three reasons: a. Auditor is trying to run a cluster with an Incident I. The right thing to do is date and get the character of the incident that made it a cluster and then run Incident Its on those left when it breaks up. Or get Dianetic auditing. b. There is an earlier Incident I on the same BT. Find it and run it. The BT has a chain of them all by himself. c. Another BT is copying the Incident I just run so it looks like it didn't blow. Failure to ever run Incident I can also cause a bog. Routine Dianetic auditing by a Dianetic HDC who is also on or above OT III using triple flows and LDN OT III also handles bogged OT III pre- OT's. ---------- Cluster Formation - Cumulative In doing a cluster one is likely to find it is made up of other earlier clusters. This looks like this. 1898 impact horse accident. When engram 1898 run on R3R, that part blows. No F/N occurs, TA remains up. Remainder will grind after the blow. Earlier portion dates as 93,000,000 years ago, electric shock. When run on R3R, that part blows, no FIN. TA remains up, will grind if run further. Earliest portion dares as 72 trillion implant. When run on R3R, all blow, FIN. A cluster or engram which is a cluster can repeatedly FIN as BT's blow. Dates as 778 million explosion. After run once or twice an FIN occurs as one BT blows. Run again to second FIN as two more BT's blow. Remainder blow with a wider FIN. The cluster has gone. This happens (repeating FIN) when picture persists and noter check reveals it is not a copy. It will be more BT's in same cluster. So above repeating FIN occurs when pre-OT is moved through it. Clusters are found by meter dating, listing for type of incident and run as an engram. Clusters can occur at Incident .II and Incident I. They can also occur at 1 quadrillion, which is the Clearing course materials. They also occur at random dates for different reasons. * * * I have lately been C/Sing a number of failed OT cases and have found them all running well on solo now. The errors are made as follows: 1. The solo auditor cannot audit, needs more training. 2. Cases are not well prepared with Dianetics. The remedy for all of these is to: a. Run the PC for at least a score or two of Dianetic items by R3R, done of course by a good HDC, b. then do a GF 40. And then repeat it until necessary auditing is complete. These two actions take care of the majority of difficult cases on OT The real End Phenomena of OT III and OT IV is exterior with full perception. You can and should accomplish full stable exteriorization on doing the materials of III. ---------- Further III remedies: 3. High TA. This comes from not completing the Incidents I and II on body thetans. 4. The solo auditor puts too wide an intention on the BT and runs two or three when he is intending to run only one. 5. A cluster just won't break up. The remedy is a Dianetic session listing for impacts or incidents that would cause a cluster and doing R3R. The principle of earlier similar holds good. When this is completed, the solo auditor is sent back to solo to clean up the BT's shaken loose and to continue with OT III. 6. Rudiments go out on BT's. The remedy of course is to locate BT's who have out-ruds, put in the ruds and run Incident 1, at which the ST should leave. 7. A theta-bopping meter sometimes puzzles a solo auditor -on OT Ill. This means a BT is trying to exteriorize and can't. The remedy is to complete the partially run Incident 11 or Incident I or in extreme cages put the ruds in on the hung up BT. 8. One-hand electrode giving wrong TA read baffling the solo auditor with floating needles with a high TA. The remedy is to have two-hand electrodes handy and trim the trim knob so the one-hand electrode reads the same as two-hand electrodes. 9. A suppressive body thetan sometimes isn't auditable. The remedy is to run Grades IV or V on him. 10. By far and large the corniest error and which has been very prevalent is not knowing the materials of OT III or the content of Incident II or Incident I. OT III is a vital grade. One fronts up to it and does it. When he is really done, the rewards of OT III and IV exceed his wildest dreams. ---------- Rudiments Going Out On BT's When the ruds go out on BT's during the session the solo auditor recognizes the following: BT critical - withhold from auditor BT antagonistic - bypassed charge in session No TA problem BT sad ARC Break Soaring TA - Overrun or protest (also more than one BT being run in error or it's a cluster) Auditor tired - no sleep or incomplete Incident I's Auditor dope-off - bypassed FIN or not enough sleep Auditor no-interest - out ruds on BT's A solo auditor who isn't sure what it is, but runs into trouble with a BT is smart to end off the session quickly, write down the full observation and get it to the C/S. The solo auditor who knows what he is looking at as per the above scale (and the C/S the C/S would give), handles it promptly. BT critical = w/h = pull the withhold BT antagonistic = BPC assess proper list (such as LlC) and handle No TA (or case gain) problem = locate the problem and handle BT sad = ARC Break - locate and handle itsa E/S itsa Soaring Ta = C/R or protest (also more than one BT being run in error or it's a cluster) - find which and handle (running more than the one intended comes from too wide an intention) Auditor tired = no sleep or incomplete Incident I's = check which it is and handle Auditor dope-off = lack of sleep or bypassed F/N = check On sleep or rehabilitate F/N Auditor no-interest = out-ruds on BT's = put in ruds. ---------- OT III Auditing OT III pre-OT's got a reputation of being hard to run on Dianetics early on in Dianetic re-development. Only five reasons exist for this. 1. A person that high on OT grades audits fast and a comm- laggy Dianetic auditor can drive him up the wall. 2. Too quiet or too blurred TR 1. 3. A tendency to evaluate instead of using TR 4. 4. The numerousness of BT chains on the same item (the BT's being separated now) making several chains on the same item, which if not all run separately leave the PC ARC Broken with the bypassed charge of unrun BT's. 5. The OT II who is still on OT III and has been on it a while probably himself has no pictures and all the pictures he has are BT pictures. The lower grades PC (before Clear) reacts as a composite Being, all on one chain, so to speak. He is separated into himself and the individual BT's and clusters of them when he gets to OT II, and so audits differently. He easily misowns the pictures thinking they are his. The big blowdowns you get on such a PC's item indicates several BT's have it in common. A solo III however will be found to have the same item on more than one BT in many cases. * * * The reason for low TA is unflat OT III phenomena. If a person has had a low TA in lower grades the keynote is to take it easy as auditor and COS. This applies also to any auditing given on upper OT levels. That a PC's TA goes below 2.0 is a certain indicator of unflat OT III. He's still got some. When a person cannot handle OT III he is too much at effect. He cannot project his intention. And so can't run OT III. The new OT I and OT II, particularly OT II, are designed to increase a PC's ability to project his intention to others. If he can't, they overwhelm him and you get low TA or "none on III". Harsh, overbearing auditing or life. incidents have to occur, apparently, to drive the TA down. Overts, disagreements expressed as obsessive agreement and other lower level matters are at the bottom of this in any Being. But any case of low TA I have ever found has been: 1. overwhelmed in life; 2. unable to project intention; 3. physically inactive; 4. loaded with BT's; 5. tends to go out of valence easily. in all this number (4) is the important point. Endless OT III and low TA are alike - inability to project Intention, PC at effect. Remedy by lightly causing PC to come to cause, to be able to project his intention and thus flatten OT III. That will complete and finish off low TA. * * * It does not matter whether or not you ran Incident I and II on self. The End Phenomena of III is getting rid of all body thetans. This does not necessarily include self. If you overrun Ill it will be by trying to get rid of tore body thetans than there were or by then, having gotten rid of the others, starting In on self. So Ill is complete for purposes of overrun as above. If you have not done Incident I and II on self when above is achieved, attest completion and then do I and 11 on self. EP's No BT's left [End Product: no BodyThetans left] - OT III L. RON HUBBARD FOUNDER

Re:Oh Tea Three 4 all 2 C

[Anonymous Coward]

You are missing the point. As are others. The problem here is not that scientology is a moronic cult. That's obvious - and if it's not , then just read xenu.net for education. No need to quote those insanities.
The discussion here is about Google's cowardly aproach and how is it going to affect Internet on the whole.

As of 8:20pm CST, xenu.net is back on Google

[vrmlguy]

WebImages Groups DirectorySearched pages from xenu.net for scientology. Results 1 - 10 of about 1,300. Search took 0.06 seconds.

Operation Clambake - The Inner Secrets Of Scientology
... L RON HUBBARD. ... THE TECH. Scientology at Ground Zero. Keith Henson
refugee, Search OC. Search through thousand of related pages here. ...
Description: The fight against Scientology on the Net.
Category: Society>ReligionandSpir ituality>OpposingViews& gt;Scientology
www.xenu.net/ - 36k - 21 Mar 2002 - Cached - Similar pages

Operation Clambake present: Scientology Court Files
Operation Clambake present: Scientology Court Files. A public library containing
court papers related to lawsuits involving Scientology in some way. Collected ...
www.xenu.net/archive/CourtFiles/ - 71k - Cached - Similar pages

Operation Clambake present: What is Scientology?
Operation Clambake present: What is Scientology? Norsk introduksjon tilgjengelig
her. ... Hubbard later created the Church of Scientology... ...
www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

WHAT IS SCIENTOLOGY?
... Created by H@rry Tuttle and translated into english by Martini,
from the first site in Italy about Scientology.
www.xenu.net/archive/scientology_illustrated/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

Scientology associated deaths
Why are these people dead Scientology? Lisa McPherson. Lisa McPherson (36) - Room
174 Heribert Pfaff (31) - Room 758 Josephus Havenith (45) - Room 771. ...
www.xenu.net/archive/deaths/ - 88k - Cached - Similar pages

Operation Clambake present: Scientology and Totalitarianism - a ...
Operation Clambake & Laura Kay Fuller present: Scientology & Totalitarianism. Prologue
| Introduction | History | Leadership | Language | Technology | Ideology ...
www.xenu.net/archive/thesis/ - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

Operation Clambake present: Answers for scientology kids
Operation Clambake present: Answers for scientology kids By Tilman Hausherr. Someone
said that a scientologist had told him that their children are disturbed ...
Description: An attempt to explain Scientology with simple words suitable for children.
Category: Society>ReligionandSpir ituality>OpposingViews& gt;Scientology>FAQs
www.xenu.net/archive/FAQ/answer_for_kids.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

Operation Clambake present: Scientology at Ground Zero
Operation Clambake present: Scientology at Ground Zero.
The ... Chasing. Intercepted Scientology email: ...
www.xenu.net/archive/events/20010911-tragedy/ - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

Operation Clambake present: QUILL - Scientology from inside out
Operation Clambake present: Scientology from inside out A former insider reveals
strategies for managing the news media by Robert Vaughn Young. ...
www.xenu.net/archive/media/young-quill.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

Operation Clambake present: The Cost of Scientology
Operation Clambake present: The Cost of Scientology. Courses. CoS
prices for processing up to OT8 and beyond. Membership. ...
www.xenu.net/archive/CoS_prices.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

Re:As of 8:20pm CST, xenu.net is back on Google

[zinjifar]

As many have noticed, Google has regained its senses, although we're still missing an explaination for it's lapse.

I highly recommend reading 'The Road To Xenu', although, Operation Clambake (AKA xenu.net) has more information on it than any single person could expect to digest in even *years* of involvement.

Zinj

Re:As of 8:20pm CST, xenu.net is back on Google

[zinjifar]

My and possibly *our* mistake.
Xenu.net is *not* apparently restored to Google; merely fine-tuned as to 'questionable material'.

I take back any good things I've said about your 'regained sanity' Google :)

Zinj

Meow!

[k2x]

Cat fight! Give her a sucker punch, where she deserves it!

Jews

[k2x]

I wouldn't be suprised if the "upper levels" of Scientology were Jews.

Only people of understanding can interpret my statement. And please no anti-semetic comments, because that means, you don't understand.

Re:Scientology, the US cult

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I know about the CoS, these comments are probably on the mark. We really ought to clean up our act. The CoS is a nasty, evil bunch, in no way a church. They no more deserve freedom to murder their enemies (iirc, documented) than Al Qaeda, and are probably almost as nasty as Al Qaeda.
I have heard that the CoS controls a Florida city, I think Pensacola, but that might be wrong, for which I apologize.

Enby in Waltham

A sorry-looking lot

[Anonymous Coward]

Some time ago, I saw a photo on the 'Net of their top brass, in their uniforms, no less. IIrc, they were called the Sea Orgs, and they were one sorry-looking bunch of people. Their uniforms were ill-fitting to the point that it didn't take a tailor to figure that out. (Does the CoS have no tailors?)

I'll do something dishonorable, here, making fun of a distinctive name: Miscavage is a living miscarriage.

Would not the highest paid employee be the Gov. ?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Texas Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation (MHMR [state.tx.us]) is almost completely made up of Scientologists...It regularly hires or promotes Scientologists into positions of management,...the head of MHMR is either the first or second highest paid state employee in Texas

And suddenly the improbable path of George W. Bush to the White House, plucked from obscurity but not altogether from illiteracy, became clear to me...

Aftershocks

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, at this point, Google seems to have reversed their decsion. The site is back to 4th when one searches for Scientology, with some free sponsored links at the left. Maybe things will improve...

Scientology on Yonge at Bloor in Toronto

[BigBlockMopar]

In Canada, they've lost all the way to the Supreme Court - One case is Hill v. Church of Scientology of Toronto, 1995.

Heh. On Toronto's main street, Yonge, there's a multi-story Church of Scientology building, and there are always many whackos out there handing out flyers and trying to recruit new morons. While walking past, I've frequently been propositioned the same way a dope dealer will. Instead of hearing "hydro" or "blunt" whispered at you as you walk past, it's "personality test".

"Jobs Available: Hard Work, Low Pay", they advertise on a sign in the window. And people go in.

One time in about 1994, I was parked on a sidestreet nearby and when I returned to my car, there was a flyer under my windshield wiper, essentially attempting to induct me. I was so incensed that I took it home, used it to wipe a certain region after a certain requirement of the human digestive system, and mailed it back to them. I figured the satisfaction was worth the cost of the postage.

The scariest thing about the Church of Scientology is not their aggression or attempted suppression of freedom of speech. It's the fact that the their cult's survival proves the existence of people who are more stupid than Raelians.

But I gotta profess my most profound admiration for L. Ron Hubbard. It amuses me to go to a casino, sit on a stool, and watch obese programmed robots put quarter after quarter into slot machines. I don't gamble - I just get some sort of sick pleasure from watching the old saying "a fool and his money are soon parted" being proven on such a spectacularly grand scale. Scientology kinda makes Las Vegas and lottery tickets seem insignificant.

Re:Scientology on Yonge at Bloor in Toronto

[Jucius Maximus]

"On Toronto's main street, Yonge, there's a multi-story Church of Scientology building, and there are always many whackos out there handing out flyers and trying to recruit new morons.

So that's what that flyer was ... I got one a few years ago from them (actually it was closer to Dundas) before I had ever heard of Scientology and just thought ?WTF? and got rid of it.

"you're listings" ... HUH?

[Anonymous Coward]

"...DMCA it out of you're listings!"

Expand the missing letter, and you have:
"...DMCA it out of you are listings!"
Now, doesn't that look silly?

no different from another mainstream religion

[Anonymous Coward]

a quote from the website (www.xenu.net)


People should be free to believe whatever they want, including Scientology. What I have against CoS is its deceitfulness, its lack of compassion for its members (especially the hard-working staff), its aggressive hard sell, its arrogance, its attack on free speech, its litigiousness, its harassment of its critics, its lack of concern for families, its gross neglect and abuse of children, etc.


replace Scientology with Christianity, add a few things like mass murder of objectors (admittedly in earlier times than ours, but still a valid point) and burning of books and the sentence is still valid ...

Fundamentalist Islam versus Scientology

[BigBlockMopar]

Interesting. I'm probably gonna get modded all to hell for this, but what are 50 karma points for, if not to be able to post controversial stuff at +2?

I've proven, via the previous statement, that either fundamentalist Islam is a cult or that Scientology is a real religion....

Fundamentalist Islam is, in a way, similar to a doomsday cult, although they don't believe in a soon-to-come end of the world. They believe that humanity is on a path to immediate self-destruction and that Fundamentalist Islam is the only way to "save" and "free" the world. They believe that they are superiour beings (members claim to have gained superhuman powers by their belief in Allah ). We, the non-members, are just stupid " infidels ", who can be cheated, lied to, even killed at will. Bin Laden actually promised his members the superhuman power of having dozens of virginal wives who've never heard of Gloria Steinem by mere thought.

They also believe to be in a constant state of siege by the outside world, surrounded by enemies trying to enslave them. The outside world is seen as hostile, non-members are a grey goo of AH-mair-EEE-cans and critics are evil enemies who can be attacked with Boeings. Fundamentalist Islam 's favourite weapon is martyrs...

Of course, Fundamentalist Islam sees this as pure self-defense against the hostile outside world. However, someone who dares to say something remotely critical of the cult is instantly labeled a "stupid Jew" and handled as such, making the small critic an even fiercer critic...

So, yeah, Fundamentalist Islam is making itself enemies from people who just expressed doubt. And this helps Fundamentalist Islam , because *having* enemies is proof of their worldview and is what keeps the cult together.

Re:Fundamentalist Islam versus Scientology

[Hanno]

I've proven, via the previous statement, that either fundamentalist Islam is a cult or that Scientology is a real religion....

No, you haven't proven, either.

The Taliban are fundamentalists of Islam, but not all fundamentalists of Islam are Taliban. Note that members and ministers of Islam have repeatedly called the Taliban a "sect" and also - aha - a "cult". So yes, they agree with you - that the Taliban are a cult.

Where can we get shares?

[The Cookie Monster]

...continued extraction of money...

Sounds great, where can I buy shares in Scientology?

Seriously though, now that Hubbard's dead (or frozen in a secret lab?), where does the money go, who gets it? Does it all get funnelled back into Scientology in some self perpetuating system that's out of control, or what?

PS good on you.

this use of DMCA unconstitutional

[BoneFlower]

Since when does federal law allow a company to stifle the free press? Only a Constitutional Amendment would have that power, and none have been passed to date that would do so(though it probably isnt' far off). Operation Clambake is clearly a journalistic effort, as such it is protected by the Freedom of the Press. It is also individually the Free Speech of the people who have contributed to it.

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Thats two clauses of this amendment that this use of the DMCA violates. Therfore, REGARDLESS of the text of the DMCA, Google was not required to remove the links.

I've sent an email to google comments@google.com quoting the First Amendment and explaining how it invalidates this use of the DMCA in this situation. Concluding with this demand:

"If those links are not back on Google within 3 days, I will cease all use of
google for any purposes and will begin a boycott campaign, or, if one has
already begun by then, throw my full weight to support it.My personal
website will contain encouragement not to use google and my signature file
attached to my emails will be modified with such an encouragement added."

And I intend to. Whose with me? This is just too far.

Someone bought Scientology adwords on Google!

[Jayson]

On Kuro5hin, someone had the awesome idea to buy text ads for the words scientology and xenu. More people had decided to buy ads, too. So now when you search on Google for Scientology you are shown ads such as "Why is the CoS censoring this site" and "scientology is evil". This guy deserves an award for best abuse of the system.

Hackers solution: include this on your site!

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's how you can help:
Step 1: create a web page (info.html) with the proper keywords (Scientology, etc. in it). Put that on your web server (www.domain.org).

Step 2: add the page to Google

Step 3: add the following to your apaches httpd.conf:

<IfModule mod_rewrite.c>
RewriteEngine On
RewriteCond %{REMOTE_HOST} !^.+\.google\....?$
RewriteRule ^/info.html http://www.xenu.net/ [R,NC,L]
</IfModule>

Google will get the info.html page, but any user from a domain other than a google domain (google.com, google.de, google.fr) will get redirected to xenu.net.
You don't even have to mirror the info about scientology, all you do is add more domain/page values to the scientology keyword DB at google. They cannot ban all those, esp. since you don't even serve the data yourself. I can't even find any info on google that does not allow this kind of trick, so strictly speaking it's even "legal", at least as far as google is concerned.

Re:Hackers solution: include this on your site!

[danny]

Don't do this - that is called cloaking and may result in Google blocking your entire site.

The best way to help publicise xenu.net - to push it further up the search results for "Scientology" - is to link to it from high-profile pages, with anchor text that contains the string "Scientology". e.g. <A HREF="http://www.xenu.net/">Scientology info</A> The main Scientology page only has a PageRank of 6, so it should be possible to push it off #1...

Danny.

What you can do:

[osolemirnix]

Don't ask what others can do, see http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=29802&cid=3206 411 for what you can do.

Google Flip-Flops on Xenu.net

[TiredGamer]

Not only have they bought *2* Ads...

Xenu.net has returned to the front page as #3 site link upon a search on the word "Scientology".

AND...

News: Google pulls, replaces Web page critical of Scientology (The Namibian - 23:05 21 Mar 2002) (Google redirect removed from link for brevity and speed.)

This is now displayed at the top of Google's search listing for "Scientology" before Category listings. Talk about Power Of The People.

-TG, Who hopes this isn't redundant... and is not afraid of Travolta.. (g)

Re:Google Flip-Flops on Xenu.net

[TiredGamer]

Ha, that teaches me to not read Slashdot Bottom-To-Top.

The Way to Happiness

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientology makes great contributions to society... Just check out http://www.thewaytohappiness.org
For their unabashed conquest into Pakistan and the Middle-East. Areas that we all can imagine the reception they would recieve. Although they claim the material isn't "Pro-$cientology" in nature, I'm inclined to send some money if it would put a Scientologist on the ground in Pakistan to recruit (hopefully violent) Islamic fundamentalists into their cult (Heheh).

A slight problem with your argument

[DohDamit]

You are jumping to a very specific sub-set of omnific beings by only diffusing the possibility of a theistic being with anecdotal evidence.

As a finite being, you have no way of gathering enough knowledge and understanding of that knowledge to even comment on the possibilities available to all the kinds of infinite beings. If a worm in my backyard refuses to believe in the existance of the space shuttle, that doesn't mean the space shuttle doesn't exist. Hell, I'm sure the worm would have no direct knowledge of said space shuttle. I'm pretty sure that worm doesn't even know I'm around except in the most basic terms. You are overstating the value of your own capabilities for understanding if you are comparing something that by definition transcends your capacity to understand it to a non-sensical apparition.

If this leaves you shaking your head, let me ask you a question in leaving. Why wouldn't an infinite being appear paradoxal to you?

Re:A slight problem with your argument

[Capsaicin]

You are jumping to a very specific sub-set of omnific beings by only diffusing the possibility of a theistic being with anecdotal evidence.

You need to re-read my comment. I did not rely on any anecdotal evidence whatsoever, in fact I pointed out that in the absence of evidence (anectdotal or otherwise) the question was not an empirical, but a logical one. Secondly my argument did not even deal with 'omnific beings,' but with putatively existent objects, the actual existence of which has not been empirically established. Finally, rather than dealing with 'a specific sub-set,' my whole argument is that there is an infinite number of objects, the existence of which can be claimed, but for which there is no good reason to believe they do exist. This means that the only workable hypothesis of putatively non-existent beings is that they must be assumed not to exist until otherwise proven (logically or empirically). Or more accurately, the onus of proof lies upon those arguing for their existence.

The point I'm making is that this does not allow us to definitively say they don't exist: to re-iterate, it is not possible to prove the non-existence of a non-existing object. Hence I said that I was an agnositic (knowledge of the non-existence of god is logically impossible) as well as an atheist (not living ones life upon the assumption that god exists).

As a finite being, you have no way of gathering enough knowledge and understanding of that knowledge to even comment on the possibilities available to all the kinds of infinite beings.

If you think any knowledge is required to be able to comment on anything at all, then you clearly haven't been hanging around \. for long enough! ;P

OK, the loose language aside, this is one way of putting the agnostic argument. More ususally it is put in terms of the inability of material creatures to have knowledge of a putative non-material world. My particular form of the argument, however, was ontological. So your while I would agree with your statement (if it said 'comment accurately'), it is, in this context, simply irrelevant.

If a worm in my backyard refuses to believe in the existance ( sic ) of the space shuttle, that doesn't mean the space shuttle doesn't exist.

On re-reading my original post you might notice that this is exactly what I was arguing. Moreover, the worm has no good reason the believe in the Space Shuttle, just as it has no good reason to believe in god, grmph, zwyglx, and the infinite number of other things which might possibly exist, but for which the worm lacks either evidence or some logically necessary inference. Note, however, the worm is in no possition positively to state, 'Zwyglx does not exist.'

If this leaves you shaking your head

What leaves me shaking my head is how far your response misses the mark, failing to engage with anything I wrote. One might suspect that you intended to respond to some other post.

198.95.10.33

[Anonymous Coward]

Running on NT/win98 !!!!

Might as well tape a big KICK ME sign on their butt.

198.95.10.33

[Anonymous Coward]

Boycott these people!!!
John Travolta
Tom Cruise
Jenna Elfman (dharma and greg)
Chick Corea (musician)
Anne Archer (fatal attraction)
Jennifer Aspen (party of five)
Isaac Hayes (south park's chef)
Kelly Preston (married JT)
Prissy Presley
Danny Masterson (That 70's show)
Charles Manson (Oh sorry he's dead)
MORE, MORE MORE?

Ignore them and they grow.
But they feed on persecution.
Do NOT threaten with violence.

Rather Herd them like rattlesnakes.

Dig them out of their holes
using long poles.
And shine the light of freedom
on their stupid asses.

Where is Quentin Hubbard?

Re:Scientology, the US cult

[mrair]

Oh Please Enby. Scientology is just a study group and not some "evil bunch". I am one and I am a plumber. Get over it. Dave in Houston

the people who would care, already would

[RomulusNR]

By far and large, the people who would really be upset if Google were "hurt" -- which they already are, because it doesn't look like Google will submit themselves to being sued, so that's a moot point -- are largely the same people who already think that Scientology is dangerous, as a result of widespread criticism of it on the Internet.

Namely, geeks.

october 1, 1993- Who was president?

[Anonymous Coward]

["20/20" logo]

ANNOUNCER: from ABC News, "20/20 Sunday" continues. And now Diane Sawyer.

DIANE SAWYER: And now, Tom Jarriel picks up his report at a turning point for the Church of Scientology. For 25 years, the church has been at war with the Internal Revenue Service over its tax status as a religious organization. In the mid-'70s, 11 top leaders were sent to prison for breaking into the IRS, stealing documents, bugging offices. But after the death of L. Ron Hubbard, the new church leaders renounced the illegal tactics and instead brought scores of lawsuits against the IRS, apparently in an effort to bring the agency to its knees.

[video footage of Scn event at Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles with people on stage carrying flags and banners]

VO: October 1, 1993. You are watching scenes of an extraordinary event. More than 10,000 Scientologists gather at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles for what's promised to be the most significant announcement in Scientology's history.

DAVID MISCAVIGE (from video, on stage): On October 1st, 1993, the IRS issued letters recognizing Scientology and every one of its organizations as fully tax exempt.

[more footage of event with audience cheering and laser lights and spotlights circling throughout the auditorium; footage of different Scn churches; Scieno walking up steps of Celebrity Centre in Los Angeles; outside of Celebrity Centre; in lobby of Celebrity Centre with person playing a piano; footage of Celebrity Centre restaurant, theater and sauna; outside Celebrity Centre; classroom inside Celebrity Centre]

VO: The war with the IRS was over and Scientology had won. The IRS decision was a financial boon for a group that already claimed to be worth in excess of $1 billion. With the tax advantages enjoyed by the other mainstream religions, Scientology has gone on an international expansion. They own valuable properties around the world and claim a membership of 8 million, though others outside the church put the number as low as 150,000. Their religious practices are unconventional. No worship services take place inside the buildings they call churches. In fact, some resemble resorts more than places of worship. In Los Angeles, this church contains a first-class restaurant, a private theater and saunas. Scientologists stay in luxury hotel rooms upstairs while attending auditing and other courses downstairs.

revoke tax exempt status

[Anonymous Coward]

http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~cowen/essays/ irs.html

America's Al Qaida

[gnugnugnu]

if you read the story about google bombing last week you will realise that your criticism is more effective if you use links rather than plaintext.
Slashdot, Hows about an easier form. There has got to be a easier/better way to do it than typing in raw tags. the form even ignores me if i put in nicely formed line breaks like <br /> or use both opening and closing paragraph tags
any way here are the links

blockquoting:

Here is an article about their interference at ground zero.
http://cisar.org/010919a.htm

They also have been posing as mental health professionals:
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/02/08/Worldandnation/S cientology_reaches_o.shtml

or from their OWN MOUTHS here
http://www.scientology.org/message/Scientology-vol unteer-ministers.htm

And a link to the coverage of this on Kuro5hin.org
Sceintology
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/3/21/8503/377 59
Dainetics deliberate typos for google users who cant spell

Remember this watershed event for Slashdot about Scientology Remember these:
Slashdot and Scientology http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/17677.html
http://slashdot.org/yro/01/05/17/0238223.shtml
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,42486,00 .html

Dont even bother wasting your mod points, please leave me at 1.

leader

[Anonymous Coward]

"nananananananana batman.. I mean leader"

Re:What's with scientology?- An expose of Hubbard

[vortexau]

Another good book is "Bare Faced Liar!"

Written about Hubbard by someone with access to his papers, but who is no longer a member!

The stuff about his cruising about (outside US waters) on a motley fleet of watercraft, served by nympthettes in brief Hubbard-designed uniforms, is comical!

The stuff where he conned the US Navy in wartime to take command of a destroyer, and spend time depth-charging Whales, more tragic!

Many SF Writers remember the period when he boasted that a writer could make LOTS of money from religion!
.

Re:uh...

[Quill_28]

I thought with Stalin it was in the millions?