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Public CD Copying Machine in Australia
kanad writes: "With all the news of banning cd burners, taxing blank CD-Rs, DMCA, and whatnot in the U.S., here's a breather from Australia. Some stores have installed coin-operated CD copying machines. Basically it's very simple: put the CD to be copied and a blank CD in two different slots and drop your coins and Presto! In 10 minutes you get a copy. It even bypasses some anti-copying measures. ... Obviously the burden of not violating copyright rests with the user under Australian law, which is the same as that applied to photocopiers. Today evening I saw the machine and it's really cool. Wonder what would happen to this machine in U.S. and Europe."
then it would be a pleasure to pick
a music CD or a game, make a copy, and
go out...
by the way, this would be an
interesting use of a laptop with a Cd-RW,
when I think of it !
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
Zac Kingston of Adelaide folk duo Linus, which is about to record its second album, said the new machines threatened to destroy smaller acts.
Wow! Linus has a tribute band...
Gerv
I wonder if this device is anything more than just a CDR connected to a 486? I'd love to know if you're able to make copies of CD-ROMs, especially copy protected ones like Playstation games and PC cds using SafeDisc.
You can bet your ass that Hillary Rosen and her crew and Jack Valenti and his crew will do everything short of murder to get that machine and all related technology banned.
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
The poster doesn't mention that it only works on Kylie Minogue CD's. Which renders it fucking worthless for most everybody.
"what will happen to the copy protection machine in US or Europe"
Once apon a time in New york :"Target identified"
"CD copy machine". "Eliminate..... Launching DMCA proprietry coded missile....Attention target, any attempt to look at the missile or remeber what it looked like will be taken as copyright violation.....5..2..3..2..1..0...???..Launch failed, Lauch code licence file not found.. DMCA violation... ABORT and DIE.... Permission denied.. DIE copyrighted by god no allowed.... $#%#%%#^^&&@#@#@#"My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
I can tell you, there's one in the Union Building of the Clayton campus of Monash University where I study. It costs AU$5 and you have to BYO blank. I imagine that it's there under the pretext that people will use it to copy their own data files...
I've never used it, so I don't know if there's anything it won't copy, but I also have never seen anyone else using it. I have severe doubts about its popularity. I'm not surprised that it was allowed because as a potential form of income I'd bet the Uni jumped at the chance. But that's just Monash I guess.
Sham on
Wow,
Just imagine the lawsuit if this thing was released in the US! The RIAA would go nuts!
Still waiting for the day when they figure out the DMCA is a bad thing and repeal it, or have the Supreme Court overturn it for violating freedom of speach.
I can see it now. Setting up shop right across from CompUSA and BestBuy . . . "I need 55 copies of Warcraft III. . you know. . just in case I lose a few. . oh yeah and a dozen Calagari TrueSpace 5.0 backups while you're at it."
Find out about my new childrens book: SS Death Camp Criminal Batallion Go To Monte Carlo For The Massacre
That giant popping noise you hear is Hilary Rosen herniating herself when she reads this article.
Xerox machines were to the publishing industry are what the Boston Strangler was to a woman alone, to paraphrase Jack Valenti. Given that no one bothers to write books anymore since perfect copies can be made inexpensively, I'm sure we'll wise up this time and stop this reckless sharing of information in its tracks.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Some of our Internet Cafes here in Ontario offer CD burning on the premises for a reasonable fee. The same rules seem to apply; the copyright infringement is up to you not to break. Granted, these aren't some kind of coin-operated specialized burning solutions, but it's still the same. Of course these same outfits (or the slightly more savvy of the bunch) add a heavy dose of temptation in to the mix by letting you run amok with file-sharing software already installed on the machine in question before you get to burning your CD.
Maybe we'll have a USB port on the next models for easy burining from your laptop.
I'd really like to know the source of this number. This number implies something like 7 million illegal copies being distributed per year. (This assumes, for argument's sake, an average of $10 per cd retail.) I'm not sure there are that many blank cds being sold per year in Australia. Did they just take the number of blank cds being sold, multiply by the cost of some of the more expensive cds, and assume every cd was used to make a infringing copy of a music cd? To top that off, did they assume that if the recipient of that music cd hadn't gotten the infringing copy, the album would've been purchased instead?
Personally, I have just as many data cds as music cds, and most of the music cds I have are copies of my own music for travel and taking mp3s of my music to work.
According to the article it costs $7 to make a copy.....($5 for the burn and $2 for the blank, I assume you can't bring your own). If the record companies would sell their "music" or other products for that price, instead of $16.95 for a new CD, maybe it would not be an issue......Maybe instead of wasting money developing anti copy techniques that just make everyone angry, they should sell their "products" for a reasonable amount......
NEW machines installed in Adelaide convenience stores make the illegal copying of the latest CDs and computer software - which costs artists and software designers millions of dollars - as easy as buying a loaf of bread.
You can buy knifes at stores. That makes murder as easy as 1.2.3.
Duh. Why do people think they are original when they take item X and immediately point out it can be used for crime Y.
I mean if we sold bullets at corner stores than you'd read a news article that says something along the lines of "new store makes kids with guns a ready proposition." etc...
Did it ever occur to those people that business people put slide shows on CDs now? Maybe they will use the public burners [although I couldn't imagine so] for copying their own work!
The point is these lines of thinking have got to stop. Anything can be used to comit a crime and it isn't very intelligence to insight people to be against technology X for that reason.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
...because you are making your own copy of an original, and artists are supposed to get reimbursed from a per-blank-disc levy (which is a topic of some discussion on its own).
It would be most cool as well.
Wonder what would happen to this machine in U.S. and Europe
RIAA Lawyer: we are sueing this store's ass off for contributing to the theft of music
Defence Lawyer: Ummm Dude, they have the rights to make back up copies of their CDs.
RIAA Lawyer: no they don't, back in 98 we had a party where the US congress and the entertainmnet industry whiped out our dicks and pissed on all the US copyright law. Now we get to piss al over the consumer, see. *whips out dick and pisses on the defence lawyer and onlookers*
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Well it'd be stolen of course, and then the person claiming insurance would have also left his laptop, ViPER, rings and anything else he can find a reciept for inside the machine. This would cause insurance prices to go up. Insurance companies would start raising rates and suing people.
People in Europe?....they have people there?
really?
Could somebody explain the rights for photocopying? I mean...duh.. there are millions of them scattered throughout the US and EU. And I bet not even 1% of the public users have their copyright permission. So what is so wrong about a CD-copymachine? Maybe just the lobby, public interest etc..?
0 001 11 1
Cool, now I can copy my "Crocodile Dundee II" soundtrack for my friends for $.50.
... this could be able IMHO. I've seen software copy-machines in the past (ok you couldn't copy your CD, but some software already avaible on the machine). You could pay the copyright-penelatiy and copy a music CD and a) everyone would be happy, b) some would complain and austrian goverment needs some years to do anything against it. So if the EU doesn't say something against it it could work here in austria.
b4n
Its one of those places that buys and sells used CD's.
For $3 you can copy any CD in the store.
The machine would be monitored by a surveillance team, and SWAT squad 24x7.
The RIAA/Senate approved team would use high-powered digital binoculars to take pictures of those copying CD's and the label of the CD they are copying. Hooked to a RIAA central database of copyrighted labels, the team's computer system would alert them to possible copyright infrigement and the SWAT would be activated.
Surveillance: We've got a Metallica copy in-progess. Mobilize SWAT Unit Charlie Omega Papa Yankee
SWAT: Ok, Sectors 2 and 3 take the rear of the copy device. Sector 1, you're with me, we'll provide coverage from the lingerie aisle. On 1 we go, 3... 2... 1... Swarm Swarm Swarm !!!
Well, maybe I'm just being paranoid...
quoth the article:
" machines fitted with software to circumvent anti-copying measures built into some CDs"
don't think this would get very far in the US ay....
--Gareth
Really, how is this any different?
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I Live in Sydney, and i've seen one of these machines bout 3 months ago outside a really crappy little supermarket in Frenches Forest. It is about half the Size of a person, the one i saw was blue and red. It had two CD Drives, top one is the reader, bottom one is the burner, only does CD-R no re-writeable.i was bored and had money to play around with so i gave it a go. worked fine.
The only bad thing is you have to stand there for ten minutes while it burns, i think they should have a little screen with something to do like a version of pong even!!
With all of the censorship^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hanti-obscenity laws and legally enforced political correctness going on down there, I hardly see how this is anything but an exception to the rule. Don't even get me started on what has happened to the right to own guns down there.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Wait a minute, you say, I purchased the media and should have fair use to it, I totally agree with you, but almost everyone that I know that copies music, for whatever reason, has access to a CD burner either in their computer, or a friends computer. So what's the point of this machine? Convenience. But it won't happen here, too many corrupt politicians...cough...Hollings...cough... and media barrons.
Amigori
"The quality of life is determined by its activites."--Aristotle
That would justify the cost / inconvienience. The article is mum on the subject.
Ten minutes seemed pretty slow until I remembered these are stationed in convienience stores. Right next to the candy aisle, I bet. You'd think a dedicated machine would use a buffer and read/write at the same time, making 10 minutes too long on a 24x writer, but they probably agreed to slow it down in exchange for floor space.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Can be found at this website
It actually looks kind of neat. That article will give you the lowdown of how it works, and what kind of profit you can expect. Neato.
I think that I'll stick with my Pinball Machines or to writing Movie Reviews
We Apprentice Developers and Designers
They tax CDR to cover monetary compensation to the artists.
ahh nice, then its already paid for, no more complains.. no problem.
lets copy.
Today is the day.. not my first post, but registered post number 100 after coming here day in and day out since dec97.
Which means in US dollars the price for the burn + CD is US$3.50.
These machines have been installed at the student guild offices in Murdoch University for at least a year.
Wonder what would happen to this machine in U.S. and Europe
It would get vandalised by n'erdo'wells. Bloody kids today etc. etc.
Too bad in Australia all contents is already banned to "protect children" : there's nothing left to burn.
Reminds me of those Sally Struthers commercials. "Save the children, Save the software designers!"
I saw this machine next to the newsagency in Broadway, Sydney sometime last year! Duh!
My CD came out upside-down. And although I was making a copy of Slackware, the copied CD was Men at Work.
-... ---
FBI: Someone is trying to copy Britney Spears on the CD recorder at wallmart downtown. Code red! Send in the national gaurd.
God spoke to me
I find all this glee surrounding stealing very odd. And be honest, people are stealing, even the older generation has gotten into the act. I'm 50, and I see all kinds of people just copying CDs right and left. No one wants to buy them anymore.
And I think it's a kind of gutless thievery. People will rationalize this because they aren't stealing anything tangible. But future economics will be based on the intangible.
This shows that ethics is directly related to what people can get away with. People are more than willing to steal if it's easy, but they don't have the balls to steal the CD player to play their stolen CDs in.
Jim Harris
If there was a way to identify the content (aren't there some nifty headers some place with a specific ID for many commercial CDs?) one could fairly easily track which commercial music CDs are being copied and collect royalties on behalf of the artist.
IIRC, a CD costing $18 at a retail store ends up putting about $2 in the pocket of the artist. I'd happily give $2 directly to an artist for a copy of their disc. The other $16 is to cover overhead of distribution, marketing, etc. Well, the marketing is being done via WOM (or via ads which I'd already seen, causing interest in the music) and the distribution is being handled by the CD copier itself. I can do without the packaging, and the arist gets their $2 from the CD copying machine company.
If I'm copying a CD of my vacation pics, it's $5 to copy. If it's the latest Tom Petty or whatever, it's $7. Works for me.
creation science book
In Canada you can legally borrow an audio CD from someone and make a copy for yourself. Hence the tax on blank media to compensate for that.
For more information: Articlde 80 of the Copyright Act of Canada
What news would that be? Who the heck is talking about "banning CD burners?" At first, I thought maybe I missed a major news article or something, so I did a quick Google search and came up empty handed. The closest thing I could find was a satire piece in the Purdue student newsletter.
So, praytell, please post a link to this news article wherein people are calling for a ban on CD burners, or quit exaggerating.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
Way back when cdr's were a novelty, at least at "Strawberries" (a music store in the northeast us) you could goto a console pick out the songs you wanted and it would make you a custom cd.
The system sucked for a number of reasons:
1. The interface was a bit kludgy.
2. The burner was painfully snow like 1x or 2x
3. The selection sucked.
With the advent of superfast writers, I could invision a really sweet kiosk that would better to use.
Personally I think this is the way that record companies should go. Instead of charging a lousy 16 bucks for a cd, they should charge 5 and make the thing on the spot. I personally know I'd pay 5 bucks for a CD, even if I wasn't sure I'd like all the songs. The other cool thing is a record company could setup a kisok that only featured music from its own artists so you could do the mix and match thing.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
I don't like it because:
- If you photocopy a whole book it takes a lot longer than the 9 minutes it takes for a cd.
- If you photocopy a book, you don't get a near perfect copy, whereas if you copy a cd you do.
What does worry me is that the people in the article might just be right, this could harm the music industry. If anyone on the street can make a near perfect exact copy of any cd then what is the incentive for most people to buy it in the first place? People don't go out a photocopy books because the methods that you use to copy it are so tedious and time consuming that it rapidly becomes a waste of time and money. This is different, you stick the cd in and wait 9 minutes, this is substantially easier than copying a book.Many people who buy a copy of something they have on pirate do it either to support the artist or because their copy quality is rubbish. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people would even both to cough up would because of the latter and with this, there is no need to do that since the quality is already perfect.
Of course the industry shouldn't charge such exhorbitant prices for stuff. You think you're hard done by in the US? Take the price in USD and that is what it is in UKP, in other words, our CD's are 1.5 times more that yours!
Take a look at the Amiga. Ignoring Commodores own inabilities, the software market was utterly obliterated by the ease it was to pick up copies of anything released. It just because totally un-economical to write and sell anything for it.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
In Canada it is also (...for now... but stay tuned to properly oppose any pending legislation(!)) perfectly legal for a person to make copies of their own media. It is also absolutely LEGAL to copy ANOTHER PERSONS AUDIO CD.
What does this mean? (first see this faq) You can take your friend's CD and burn yourself a copy - and its legal. This is because Canadians pay a levy on CDRs which 'compensate' producers (et al). I dont agree that this is the best tactic, but it is a powerful one. If people were informed of this fact, and groups actively promoted this, you could eliminate the present distribution scheme in Canada (retailers/distributors/labels). The Library would be all that Canadians needed to have copies of all the music they wanted.
Now, why is this going OT? I would like to know, does anyone have links or Info to make a Linux based, CDR 'copy machine'? I would like to organize a 'Copy Your Friends CDs Party" at a library or some such (near the Uni in town would be good), but would like to be able to copy many-many volumes of CDs.
I also have thought about make such a device available on loan to local Libraries in order to 'promote' and 'encourage' the practice.
Can anyone provide a info to do such a thing? What would be really nice is if the device could be operated without a monitor - just insert discs and close the trays...
Even if it *was* $6 more expensive to produce a CD then, *now* CDs are practically free (just look at how many AOL wastes). So why hasn't the cost of CD music come down? Because the music industry can get it. Piracy was far less an issue when costs were *half* their cost now.
My point? If CDs were $8 or $9, people would snatch them up and not bother to pirate them - after all, the amount of *effort* you need to put forth just to find stuff, download it, burn it, etc, isn't worthwhile. But, when CDs are now approaching $18+ at local stores - well, it doesn't take a genius to realize that it's *easy* to recoup your initial hardware "investment" (cost).
FWIW, I own about 150 albums and another 150 CDs. And yet I really haven't bought any CDs in probably 2 years. Why? Cost, and the level of crap which is being put out now (which is probably more a function of me being 25 and having already found a style of music 4 or 5 years ago which I like - which is now disappearing).
This is the way it should be. RIAA should learn how to avoid copying without changing laws, or even excluding technologies or breaking any copyright. If they try to add value to their products I'm sure that many will avoid copying.
I'll say it again, RIAA/MPAA must learn to adapt themselves to new upcoming technologies. When a robot replaces a worker there are no laws that avoid this, the worker must adapt himself, by doing a new job, or by doing it better then the robot.
No association should overcome the democracy or the liberty, let's avoid this kind of thing.
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
I think you're a bit biased in your view. You look on information as something that is owned and controled. That is not its natural state, that is the state of information in the corperate age.
Another use is to copy non commercial cds.
Here is some examples.
1. Linux distros
2. personal software that you have given out to friends (Yes some people make their own software, and aren't near their computers when they need to make a copy).
3. Course materials. (eg library has master you must do the copying).
You just need a quality burner and good burning software. Go to http://www.elby.org/CloneCD/english/ and have a look. Personally, I recommend getting a Lite-On burner. There is almost nothing the new ones can't copy. They read all the subchannels and so get copyprotections like the old safedisc and Laserlock and so on, and they even do all the EFM bit patterns correctly and so can get the new safedisc as well. This is legal, even with teh DCMA. Why? Simple, you aren't actually circumventing copy protection. You are just making an exact copy of the disc. All the copy protection will actually be intact on the copy, just as it was on the orignal.
Apparently the only point of contention is the ability to amplify weak sectors of Safedisc 2 discs. CloneCD will disable that ability if your Windows profile indicates you live in the US.
At any rate, get yourself a Lite-On LTR-24102B (24x burner) for about $110 off pricewatch and get a copy of CloneCD for $31 and you'll be able to copy more or less any disc out there.
I am aghast that in this day of information flow and digital everything that some individuals are forced to use coin-op cd copiers.
To think for only a few cents a day these poor souls could have CD-RW's for their computers.
What are YOU doing to help?
lunky> c++; lunky> do{;}
from me sitting in a van with my laptop with a sign that says "CD Backups: 2 for $10"?
While at first it seems like it would be fairly popular, if you look at the figures a bit closer, I can't see that many people using it.
A brand new 32x burner costs under $200 australian here and a most cost effective 16x burner can be found under $100AU. At $5 a copy on the public machine, it's only 20 copies before you could have bought a new burner for your home machine.
That may seem like alot of copies, but the conveniance of having a home burner would outweigh the initial cost (want to burn a cd? drive down to where ever it is, spent time parking etc etc and any additional costs such as fuel). Even if the machine cost $1 per burn, it's still inconveniant enough to buy a home burner.
Even people who burn 1 CD a year probably have a friend who can burn a cd for them, and even then, the casual users of this machine would probably not bring in the profit margins that store owners would be looking for (the site seems to indicate each machine costs $6000 or $35 a week).
If this had been around mayb 3 or 4 years ago when a large amount of people didn't own burners then yes I could see it being a success, but now, I doubt it.
Easy: Hillary Rosen would spend the rest of her days walking from store to store with a 12-pound sledgehammer.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
"Wonder what would happen to this machine in U.S. and Europe."
Well, depending on what part of the contry (USA) you put this thing in, I can see a couple of red-necks loading this baby on the back of their pickup and driving off with it (cough West Virginia cough). If people have tried to rip off ATM's, soda machines, and newspaper dispensers, what makes you think they wouldn't go after this thing? I really hope they load the base of this puppy with some lead or cement.
Who is John Galt?
Ah, I think I'll just start my own music store, Sell cds at or below regular cost, :)
and to amuse myself and make money, I'll have a row of these machines by the back wall... you can return any cd in within 30 minutes.
5 dollars a copy. enjoy
And all the security cameras will be pointing away from the machines.
Disclaimer:The "Human" attached to this account is unresponsible for anything unless it wants responsibility.
so why does it matter how much it cost and how long it takes? are you saying that if all books cost $200 upwards and had only 12 pages that photocopiers should be illegal? should cd copiers be legal only if they 30 minutes to duplicate and require you turn a hand crank while they are copying?
the reason that books cost the price that they do might have something to do with the cost of duplication. cd copying and p2p file sharing introduces music publishers to a new form of competition and their prices will need to adjust to the new business environment.
This is great - many more poor people own CD players than own PC's. Why shouldn't they get to copy their CD's too?
Wonder what would happen to this machine in U.S. and Europe.
All those 1337 hardware hackers would find a way to bypass the coin-op and just toss in 2 cd's for a (nearly) free copy.
DRINK DUFF (responsibly) DRINK DUFF (responsibly) DRINK DUFF
Do they have these machines installed in music stores? That would be really handy.
NEW machines installed in Adelaide convenience stores make the illegal copying of the latest CDs and computer software - which costs artists and software designers millions of dollars - as easy as buying a loaf of bread.
Nope - no bias in this article, that's for sure.
News flash: Photocopy machines installed worldwide make the illegal copying of the latest books and sheet music - which costs artists millions of dollars - as easy as buying a loaf of bread.
"These things are baaaad", said local idiot Glenn B. Aaker. "I couldn't imagine anything more potentially devastating for my web site than people copying pictures of myself and my farm animals. Those pictures are copyrighted, damnit, and they cost me a lot of, uh, money, to make."
Mr. Aaker said his goats would not take this lying down, but rather, standing up. "Hell no", he said. "We're not putting up with this. Besides, I get more pleasure out of it (fending these criminals off) when they're standing up."
Convenience store owner John Tsavrou said the photocopy machines were popular among strange looking people. "If people ask, we tell them it is sick and wrong to copy pictures of Mr. Aaker copulating with his goats and there are warnings on the machines - but what they copy is up to them," he said.
A spokesman from Xerox had no comment, although he did shoot milk out of his nose in a fit of hysterical laughter when told his machines were driving down Mr. Aaker's profits.
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
I wonder if it's possible to make one of these things in an analog version. As in, it makes a pit-for-pit copy based on continuously variable information from the reading laser. Would probably cost a fortune, but wouldn't the RIAA freak from seeing the laws they bought and paid for "finessed" like that?
Except that as you noted software such as CloneCD will disable certain copying features if it sees you're living in a particular market. If it's not illegal or been put under pressure by someone why would the programmers have gone to that trouble?
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be legal just that despite the common sense of it being legal someone somewhere has obviously applied pressure to the makers of this software. FWIW there are also ways around this crap (sigh).
Think about it this way - it's "copy protection" and the software copies it. Whooops, is that a DMCA issue or not? What a mess....
P.S. I use Plextor and so far have had no problems yet. The moment one of their firmware updates screws me up I'll be switching to another company and they will have lost a customer.
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Obviously the burden of not violating copyright rests with the user under Australian law, which is the same as that applied to photocopiers. Today evening I saw the machine and it's really cool. Wonder what would happen to this machine in U.S. and Europe."
Yeah, right. It'll never happen. Could you imagine if the machine was within walking distance of the local music store? 1 kid buys a CD, 10 kids get copies. It's napster, but moved to sneaker-net.
Sure, it *could* be used responsibly, and thats why its legal in some areas, it would even be legal in the US as long as it didnt circumvent any copy protection (ie: PC Games, etc), but I still dont expect to see that any time soon, it would just get abused far too much.
It even bypasses some anti-copying measures. ...
That's a violation of the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act), which makes it illegal to circumvent any copy protection system.
be vandalised, and rendered unuseable within a day.
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
The $70 million figure would be in Australian dollars - so read it as $US35 million.
His definition of "illegal copying" probably goes beyond copying a CD onto another CD and includes file sharing etc.
It's still bogus though - just because people burn a CD doesn't mean it's a lost sale because there's no evidence they would have actually bought the CD.
Either way I think it's quite cool.. would love to see those in the US.
"There is no Death. Only a change of worlds."
Theres one in Claremont (Perth, Western Australia) at a video store just outside the antitheft devices, so you can hire pc games put in the game and your own blank cd, put in the money then return the game straight away. :/
You have your own copy, never need to come back - seems a little weird for the video store to offer this service
generic
i own one and its great. the copyright talk is all negative, like there is nothing else on a cd that should be copied. mine works well and is no hassle... i will answer any resonable questions if you want ?
The day Microsoft creates a product that doesn't suck, it will be known as the Microsoft Vaccuum Cleaner!
Murdoch ? I prefer to spend money on jugs and free pizza at lunch..