Slashdot Mirror
PC Prices to Rise?
guinan writes "The Economist is running a story about how now that PC makers think the worst is over, it's high time to raise prices. In particular, the focus is on the steady price of flat-panels and a possible end to the decline we've seen in the price of memory. Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own boxes, but if you want to buy a computer from a major brand better go for one soon while you can still get all the perks."
"possible end to the decline we've seen in the price of memory."
What is this person smoking? Memory price is almost triple what it used to be.
Memory prices have doubled in six months. What decline?
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
-Sam
if you want to buy a computer from a major brand better go for one soon while you can still get all the perks
Perks?
But who would want a mini tower with onboard video and sound and almost no room to upgrade?
Memory has already doubled to tripled in price, and LCDs are up 25%.
The time for bargains was over a month ago, if you buy today or wait 2 weeks not much is going to change.
Most analysts are predicting that current price increases are reaching a plateau.... now is not necessarily the time to buy (unless you buy like today), as price increases are already happening througout the industry, as can be seen in this article.
The flat panels price increase is due almost entirely to a shortage of one of the key ingredients used in manufacture, which is supposedly only temporary.
I guess this is inevitable. Apples announcment to increase the price of the iMacs was met with a lot of criticism but now it looks like they were only the first.
The economic climate is changing. Memory and Flat panel Displays are getting more expensive so it's only natural for the whole machine to cost more. I just hope that DIY machines will get more expensive as well. Otherwise the posters that compare apple prices to machines they build part by part will not only continue to think that their arguments are valid, but even $100 more valid.
Hank! White!
Linux and any of the BSD's are not well established?
Alcohol & calculus don't mix. Never drink & derive.
Many people actively want to spend more. One of my relatively clueless neighbors asked me to bless his decision to spend $2700 on a new Dell. It was top of the line. I knew he did a bit of word processing and spent the rest of the time at home playing flight simulator games. He's not an avid, fast-twitch gamer. I tried to talk him into a $700 system. He wouldn't budge. He wanted to spend that much. He wanted to make sure it was "upwardly compatible" and "expandable", even though he would just spend another $2700 in a few years. There are plenty of suckers who have too much money. It's fine by me if the computer companies take it. The only thing that worries me is that they'll increase the cost of low-end systems that I like. It's been a long time since I did anything but basic coding and editing.
So because one or two companies show slight gains from last quarter, the entire tech economy is rebounding? Bah... I wonder when media sources would like to give some proof as to recovery, rather than jumping on the optimistic bandwagon in their articles.
Even so, raising prices at the beginning of a rebound might serve to shove us back in the gutter again. People are tighter with money now, especially tech workers, who are the #1 customers for these technologies. I don't think they're willing to give up the money so easily now.
The best computer is the one you build yourself.
> Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own
> boxes
Probably a significant number build their own boxes, but I doubt one could say, "most"
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
doo you know what this will do to the "over priced Mac" argument!!!!
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I always build my own, stopping by Pricewatch to find the best prices.
But everywhere I look, places are building custom PCs now. BestBuy was even building pcs to order. They had many vendors, Alienware, hp, compaq, etc.... You could order a custom PC, or build your own with off the shelf items. CompUSA started to carry OEM products awhile back, funny to see those white boxed oem products on sale at a retail store.
These are just usual rumours to get the people buy now, and not postpone. We've seen such manipulation over and over again (e.g. with memory prices, causing huge price fluctuations; there is always a group earning lots of money on price fluctuations).
Over time PC prices shall come down inevitably, there is no fundamental reason why progress of technology (enabling more power for same price or equal power for lower price) should stop any time soon.
Example: LCD prices are bound to fall sharply in the second half of the year. New production capacity comes available in big quantities in july/august (new generation plants, higher efficiency, less shortages etc). I guess some stakeholders want to push people into buying now (out of fear for price increases) to get rid of their old inventories.
"Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own boxes..."
I highly doubt the accuracy of this statement.
The phrase "decline in the price of memory" comes from the submitter, not the article. According to the article (and the market), "the cost of some chips has been steadily increasing."
Oddly enough, the article points out that steadily rising component prices may actually encourage some companies (e.g. Hynix) to get back into a market they had recently abandoned, despite shrinking margins. It also mentions that since Dell tends to pass changes in component prices quickly on to customers (for better or, in this case, worse), that it may actually be a competitive disadvantage WRT Compaq or HP, since those companies sell to retail at somewhat fixed prices.
What a strange business - when technical innovation is the driving force in a market, the usual business laws don't seem to apply...
Only the losers buy systems at DELL, Compaq, IBM, HP or whatever the brands are.
You can still get a nice complete system, with an AMD Athlon XP 1700+, 256 MB of memory 40 GB disk, with sound and video, for less than $400, if you take your time looking for the best prices.
Moore's law is still in full effect. A few years back, my ideal system would cost $2000, and my "Good enough" system would cost a little over $1000. Those prices seemed to stay constant over the years.
Now, a "Good enough" system can be had for $200, and the "I'll never need another" system can be had for $700.
I'm not worried.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
"and a possible end to the decline we've seen in the price of memory."
A possible end?
The ram I'm using in my system, which I bought late August/early Septemer, has nearly tripled in price since then! At the time I bought it, I thought it was a reasonable price, but now it's just way too expensive.
Keep in mind that memory prices have a great deal to do with supply and demand (or so they say.) Here's a price FAQ I found at crucial.com when wondering why my ram had become so expensvie.
-kidlinux.
What your "clueless" neighbor wanted to you to "bless" was his decision to spend a huge amount of money on a computer merely to demonstrate his commitment to being on the cutting edge. In other words, he wanted you to let him know how L33T he is.
;#)
Normally, I wouldn't be so condescending about a newbie, but the fact that he asked you about it, specifically telling you the price, indicates that he was just showing off. It would be kind of like him showing you his brand new Porsche, as he rubs his chin thoughtfully saying, "hmm, do you think I paid too much??"
Meanwhile, I don't think you need to worry too much about the cost of low-end systems being affected, since we l33t coders "know" that building it yourself will always be cheaper, especially since you don't have to pay the Microsoft Tax...
The author owns stock in Memory and Processor companies? And probably at least one of the big brand name PC vendors...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I really don't think prices will go up too much and if they do go up it will probably be a temporary increase. Look how much competition there is amongst the PC makers. The reason why PC prices are so low is because of the ease of entry in to the marketplace coupled with rapidly changing technology and a reduced consumer demand for the latest and greatest PC. Ten years ago, you had to buy a new computer every two years in order to run the latest and greatest software. Not so anymore, a Pentium II will run just about everything the non-gamer needs to run, plus I've seen some thrifty gamers running P-II's with not too much of a problem, besides a little wait.
Now I can undersell my custom built superior systems even more. Name brand pcs are way overpriced as it is. Hopefully I'll move more computers now though.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
Check out this company.
Zalman
They make an assortment of products for quiet PC's. One is a heatsink that doesn't require a fan.
t's only a personal thing, but as far as my own personal machines go, hand built is the only option. The advantages from having carefully chosen each and every component, exactly as required to do the job in hand are worth the few hours (good components/knowledge/luck permitting) it takes to build the thing. Even if I buy a system, the first thing I do is wipe the disks and start from scratch.
Also, I'm probably not alone in being a serial upgrader, I replace something in one of my machines about once a month, funds permitting. So, I haven't actually built a whole new machine for myself in 4 years, though the only original parts left from that machine are the keyboard and case (currently home to my Linux dev box).
However, I'd always go the way of prebuilt machines, preferably from one of a few big firms (I'm not going to plug ANYBODY) if I were putting a network together for people (something I do regularly), it's more for tech support and a good warranty than anything else.
buyed -> bought
favourize -> favor
I look more to the used market for bargins in HD's , Memory , Monitors etc when I build a PC.
:D
I have a greater chance to HAGGLE
Some great bargins there when you haggle them down.
Even if it isn't used products, you can still haggle. No harm in trying. I always do.
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
Said that the price hike was for LCD monitors that help you "run programs and browse the web at faster speeds". I'd love to have that one explained to me.
End the reign of dumbass submissions and editorial comments! Mod up all posts like that one!
Can anyone tell me why memory prices have increased so much in the past few months? AFAIK memory is a multiple source commodity so the huge price jump seems to me to be not a consequence of supply and demand.
...possible end to the decline we've seen in the price of memory.
:/
Is this guy crazy? Here in Brazil last december I bought a 256mb memory for about 20 bucks... now I want another 256mb and its costing more than $100!!!!!!!!
I remember 128 mb memory were as cheap as 10 bucks... 64mb memory were not even selling anymore... now I can even buy a 64mb with $20...
Fabio - Sumare/Sao Paulo/Brazil/South America/Earth/Solar System/Milky Way/Universe
http://www.morroida.com.br
This is the most stupied recomendation I ever read.
I would URGE against this recomendation based on:
* No matter how much the PC manufacture raise the price, if other didn't follow, that PC manufacture will LOSE sell.
Remember: Demand is the force.
* Computer power has raise in amazing speed compare to aplication.
If you use 500MHz PC and don't really need that 2 GHz processor now,
you could get a 2.5 GHz processor with 2 GHz price 6 month from now,
or a 3 GHz processor with 2 GHz price 1 year from now.
Other thought:
* PC manufacture release this rumor to clear their exxecive inventory.
If you WAIT, the price will go up, then go down down down down.
Typical...
Yet again, where Apple lead, the others follow.
heh, "crowbar made of lies" indeed. You should write a heavy metal song about that.
If you want a quiet pc, I can build one. There is one fan in the system, which is the psu fan. If a person knows what they are doing, you can get quiet HDs, chipsets, vid cards, cpus, and everything, the psu will be the loudest, but if you are willing to buy a laptop, I am more then sure you are willing to spend a little more on quiet pc parts. They aren't the fastest, but they can be very good.
if you want more info, email me at aa@aselabs.com and I'll tell you what to pick. Need to know your needs first though.
Yeah maybe its a little rude, but the dude is right...
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson
I thought that time travel guy said he'd have his device ready by fall! Now he's already been here and back telling about the rise in computer prices!!
Find Escorts, Strippers, Massage Parlours, Swingers
What this means is that first of all I save time on not having to assemble the thing and test individual components, plus if something breaks, I can get it replaced more easily. But I still get to choose the exact configuration, and don't have to pay the Microsoft tax if I choose not to (if I choose to, however, I can still get OEM pricing for Windows).
I may end up paying that 100 - 200 bucks for their work; but usually it's not even that much, since they still get volume discount for components. That is, if I bought components from them, the price would be about equal to what they charge for the whole system.
I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
If PC prices do rise, the timing may be fortuitous for open source. Although Linux still does not seem to be gaining ground on the corporate desktop, it is at least gaining mindshare: it's no longer a wild idea to suggest that a business should entirely migrate to Linux. If businesses do perceive that new hardware is more expensive, they may realize that Linux is like a low-cost hardware upgrade.
Miko O'Sullivan
Toxi waste - computers have a very short life and lots of toxic materials.
I'm soon going to go to this show (prices in $CDN). There's not a single price, other than memory, that's higher in that list.
What, are PC prices going to double overnight?
Not likely.
BTW: Just a note of history, even though computer prices are continually coming down, they are, right now, higher than they've been in the past. In the past you could buy a C64 (when they were popular) for $400 and the disk drive for $200, making a system price $600 (IIRC). That can be tough to find with a PC nowadays (not impossible, just tough).
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
People ALLOW the prices to rise. If you do not run out and knee-jerk purchase computer stuff, Then you will have more leverage at the checkout counter a little later on in the season. RESIST the urge to upgrade, instead, learn how to maximumize what you have. Gamers, I realize you are hopelessly addicted and would hate to be jitter on the trailing edge of technology, but get a grip. IDIOTS buying new stuff fuels the spiral of higher prices. Manufacturers can resist the price changes too. They have the BUYING power to say NO! So do you! 3D graphics cards are NOT 3D. When will you technoweenies realize that? They will not be 3D until there is a large cubical chamber with multiple layers of LCD displays allowing for PSEUDO 3D effects. You are silly to believe otherwise. Without depth, there is NO 3D. Physics people, physics. Yes I run antiquated systems and they work just fine. They are last years stuff. BFD. You junkies need to control your habits. Businesses need nothing more than email, word processing and spreadsheets(if that) and rudimentary web access. EDI? Everything is Electronic Data Interchange. Buzzword challenged?
We have a problem.
The companies want something done about this sluggish world economic situation
Profits have been running a little thin lately
and we need to stimulate some growth. Now we know
there's an alarmingly high number of young people roaming around in your country with nothing to do but stir up trouble for the police and damage private property. It doesn't look like they'll ever get a job. It's about time we did something constructive with these people. We've got thousands of 'em here too. They're crawling all over.
The companies think it's time we all sit down, have a serious get-together- And start another war
The President? He loves the idea! All those missiles streaming overhead to and fro... Napalm... People running down the road, skin on fire...
The Soviets seem up for it: The Kremlin's been itching for the real thing for years. Hell, Afghanistan's no fun
So whadya say? We don't even have to win this war. We just want to cut down on some of this excess population..
Now look. Just start up a draft; draft as many of those people as you can. We'll call up every last youngster we can get our hands on, hand 'em some speed, give 'em an hour or two to learn how to use an automatic rifle and send 'em on their way
Libya? El Salvador? How 'bout Northern Ireland?
Or a "moderately repressive regime" in South America?We'll just cook up a good Soviet threat story in the Middle East-we need that oil
We had Libya all ready to go and Colonel Khadafy's hit squad didn't even show up. I tell ya
That man is unreliable. The Kremlin had their fingers on the button just like we did for that one.
Now just think for a minute-We can make this war so big-so BIG, The more people we kill in this war, the more the economy will prosper. We can get rid of practically everybody on your dole queue if we plan this right. Take every loafer on welfare right off our computer rolls.
Now don't worry about demonstrations-just pump up your drug supply.So many people have hooked themselves on heroin and amphetamines since we took over, it's just like Vietnam. We had everybody so busy with LSD they never got too strong. Kept the war functioning just fine
It's easy. We've got our college kids so interested in beer they don't even care if we start manufacturing germ bombs again.
Put a nuclear stockpile in their back yard,
they wouldn't even know what it looked like
So how 'bout it?
Look-War is money.
The arms manufacturers tell me unless
we get our bomb factories up to full production
the whole economy is going to collapse
The Soviets are in the same boat.
We all agree the time has come for the big one, so whadya say?!?
That's excellent. We knew you'd agree
The companies will be very pleased.
What planet are you living on? In the past 8 months the price of memory has tripled. In Sept. of last year I paid $28 for 256 meg DDR -- now it's selling for over $80.
... the economy is still not really growing - only able to level even.
Rising is never as fast as falling. And the mergers are not going to reduce the over-capacities. OK the memory was really too cheap, I think. But the rest? Flatscreens are not _that_ cheap.
So all comes down to wishfull thinking for my opinion. We have ample time to compare prices and bargain. I don't need a Dell or HP - on the inside they are pretty much the same anyway.
Monitors have never followed the pricing drops that computers follow. I bought a monitor (KDS 19" 195T) two years ago, and then I bought a dual-head card with the intention of buying a second monitor. I love my current monitor, and want to get another like it. The trouble is, the price hasn't dropped. In fact, I bought my current monitor on sale, and I haven't seen the price come back to that level since then.
My point? CRT monitors aren't subject to the same pricing trends as computers, because the technology isn't changing. LCD's have been dropping price because they're new and the manufacturying technology keeps improving. That doesn't mean anything for CPU, memory, hard drive, or adapter cards. And those are what keep bringing the system price down.
You know, I used to think building my own box was the way to go. I'd get on Pricewatch and find the best motherboards, CPUs, etc. and build the whole thing. It used to be cheaper.
:)
Then my parents needed three new computers at once, and I decided to check out Dell Refurbished.
For $580 shipped (each), I got 2 computers with a 1.1GHz Celeron processor and one with a 1.6GHz Pentium IV. All had at least 128MB RAM and one had 256MB (I bought extra memory from Crucial.com to bring them all up to 256MB.) All had at least a 20GB hard drive, which was all my parents needed for the office. All came preinstalled with Windows XP Home (fine for office work.) And one came with a Firewire card; one came with a kick-ass video card. All had either Ethernet or a 56K modem (in card format, even, not built on to the motherboard.) All of this also came with free one-year ON-SITE hardware tech support from Dell.
I was a bit worried about the quality, since I've seen how Dell shafts its low-end users with shoddy parts. But the computers performed flawlessly upon arrival and have since, with no system crashes. Then, when it came time to swap out a CD-ROM for a CD-RW, I was truly impressed. Swapping out of a drive consisted of the following:
1. Unplugging the computer.
2. Pulling a thumb-tab at the top of the computer.
3. Pulling a latch that released the CD-ROM drive.
4. Unplugging the CD-ROM drive's cables.
5. Pulling out the CD-ROM drive and putting the drive brackets on the new drive (which just snapped on.)
6. Sliding in the new drive, plugging in cables, snapping case back together.
7. Plug in.
Done! No screws, no screwdriver, no nasty cheap ATX case with a hood you have to struggle with getting in the right place. Check out this picture to see what I'm talking about.
There was no way I could have built these computers, bought Windows XP, and had any money left over to profit at $580 a computer. Plus, I would have had to put them in an ugly case that would have caused hassle for me later.
I don't think it's economical any more to build your own computer. This is a GOOD thing -- it shows that computers have become a commodity. Do you build your own TV? Probably not. Microwave? Heck no. The quality to price ratio of pre-built computers is now such that even geeks are starting to buy pre-built computers. I, for one, am glad. Let Dell take over the hassle of being called when the computer has a problem. I'll spend more time doing things that I'd rather be doing.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
RAM prices have been going up for quite a long time now. They bottomed out around last summer/fall and have been on the rise ever since. It would have been concievable for one to get 256MB of name brand PC2100 memory for $30 or less back then on Pricewatch. However, now you can't find anything decent for under $45, and the prices have continued to rise.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
Prices will not go up. The main reason is Dell that is using this downturn to clobber their competitors. Notably Compaq.
Dell as the lowcost producer only needs to keep the level and the rest will try and fail. Then go back the old pricing.
This is being done in the Airline industry all the time. One of the major airlines sends a signal of higher prices waiting for reaction. If nobody follows they go down again, usually within days.
Dell wil not follow as they have publicly stated they will use this trough to gain share.
The PC price elasticity is such that pretty much price is the only thing that will spur market growth short-term. A hike will kill short term demand as no compelling reason for upgrading now rather than in 6 month time can be articulated.
There is no new "must haves" in the newer boxes and it will be a while. Dell is the major culprit here as well since they have less than half of the R&D than other majors. Around 2.5% if I remember.
Help fight continental drift.
See here. 256meg PC2100 DIMMs back down to $70 apiece. Kudos to amdmb.com for the heads-up.
Let's kill the poor we can't draft while we're at it.
Ignorance kills, complacency kills, hatred kills, but usually not the ones guilty of them.
seal the case, provide onboard video & audio, LAN, and USB for expandability. I'm happy to give up
a CDROM and hard disk (of course I run FreeBSD which saves me a bundle in cash flows to the devil in Redmond). I'd like to give up the damn noisy fan and that big, ugly beige box.
Maybe now the marketeers will stop trying to sell me GHz-clocked processors and high-end video cards.
Is that Secretary of State Macnamara? Cyrus Vance? The Soviets haven't existed for a very long time.
Surprised that this one did not include mentions of the current threat of the Barbary Pirates, Nazi Germany, and the good old Mongol Hordes.
Member of both the RIAA and MPAA. Real Intellectual Property nazis. They love picking on people who hack their products, like mod chip builders and AIBO programmers. They pretty much ran the Dreamcast out of business.
I will never buy anything Sony. Ever. No matter how kawaii their stuff looks.
Sony makes Microsoft look like choirboys.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Agreed. Telling is this quote from the article:
Coming out of the block, you can bet that Dell is going to be trying real hard for all of those Compaq customers who might have been turned off of HP at some time in the past for whatever reason (rumor, techie friend opinion, bad experience). Then, there will be those who didn't like Compaq and are concerned that HP is making noises like the new company (keeping PC design centers in Houston, etc.) will be providing rebadged Compaqs.
You just got to know that Dell will be looking at the new landscape as a growth, not profit, environment and will be pricing accordingly. Gateway and HP will have to match or beat to not get eaten alive.
Dude! They're getting Dells now!
Now that we have the Neutron Bomb
It's nice and cheap and clean and gets things done.
Away with excess enemy
With no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home....
Jello Biafra. Truly, he rules.
Did you ever build your own television or microwave? Didn't think so. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
Oh no, I better buy quickly to get that free year of AOL included at no extra charge!
clay tablets? Luxury! In my day, we couldn't afford clay, much less the tablets. We had to hold the bits in our head. And instead of this newfangled internet we had to use hand signals. Granted, didn't work too well when it was foggy and couldn't see each other, ahh..but those were the good days! And we liked it that way.
I've always been a big fan of "build your own clone!" too - but it almost doesn't make sense anymore. Oh sure, from a "coolness" standpoint - there's really no substitute. That's only because LAN gamers and the computer "3lit3" turn up their noses at anything that isn't overclocked, hacked up with extra cooling fans, and has neon lighting inside of it.
If you're a regular or "power user", however, and want value for your dollar, the home-built clone is looking less and less viable.
In recent years, I've built several home-built clones for use at home, as well as used a couple of Dell systems. Neither Dell has given me *any* reliability problems, but all of the home-built PCs have. Conventional "wisdom" of the self-proclaimed PC gurus says "Oh, you need to use better quality parts!" Well, Adaptec SCSI controllers, Muskin memory and Asus motherboards haven't been the magic answer for me - so I'm not sure what they expect I should be buying instead?
Fact is, most clone cases use crappy quality power supplies. I had one literally go up in smoke while the machine was plugged in but powered off! (Before that, it worked fine for about a year - but 1 year before burning up isn't what I call quality.) Cases with *good* power supplies in them cost big $'s, making the system cost uncompetitive with companies like Dell or HP.
Then, you struggle with warranty issues. If I buy a name brand PC, at least I can buy an extended warranty that pretty much guarantees me free replacement of any parts that die for 3 years. Try that with a generic clone! You might get a manufacturer 3 year warranty on the hard drives, but that's probably about it.
One of my Asus motherboards constantly freezes up running Win '9x. With Linux, 2000, or XP however, it's fine. (I wanted Win '98 on it because I used it for MIDI and hard disk audio recording, and had some older software.) No amount of driver updating ever got it stable, even with the latest BIOS updates.
Of course, now, if you ask the same people that praised that board when I bought it, most will simply tell you "Oh, yeah - that chipset is screwed up. You need the new Asus model XXXX!" Whatever.... This kind of thing only happens to people building clone PCs. The name brand systems get returned as defective when they can't run a popular OS properly, so that's usually weeded out before they go on sale.
I think I speak for the majority of us Athlon owners when I say I'd be willing to pay a bit more if someone would create an "Athlon Fan Crowbar" and distribute it with my new processor/MB combo.
I always hear people bragging about how they built their own system, expecting me to be impressed. If they cooked up their own silicon wafers and designed the chip, maybe. But these wizards are picking out video cards and remembering to plug in the CPU fan. Big fucking deal.
Would that that were true. :-(
I'm looking at buying a new PC in the UK just now, not quite state-of-the-art, just behind the huge price jump to the absolute top of the line kit. I've looked at several well-reputed suppliers of individual parts, and several manufacturers' made-to-order systems as reviewed in recent PC magazines. There's no question that buying a made-for-you system is around 30% cheaper. For the best prices I found for a basic setup (mobo, proc, RAM, HDD, gfx card), I could get a whole, award-winning system, with almost identical spec + monitor + CD-RW + DVD-ROM + lots more + legal WinXP (even if I'd immediately replace it). Building your own system is definitely not a financially sound move in these parts. :-(
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
hmm I didn't realize till now that Dell was resorting to advertising in posts on /.
And to think an AD got a +5
http://Lenny.com
You're so right. I've built a few machines of my own over time. The last was about three years ago (and is still going, though about due for replacement now). It took four major part swaps before I got it all working. Fortunately, I'd bought everything from the same place, and I used them because they had good customer service, so that caused no problems beyond a little frustration. We agreed that next time, I'd let them put it all together for me... :-)
And you're right about the myth of upgrading bit-by-bit as well, IMHO. You can add new hard drive space, but mobo, processor, RAM and gfx card often go together. If you're replacing that lot, you're really down to "I can reuse the monitor, printer, KB and mouse" rather than "I could just upgrade the mobo, processor, RAM and gfx card" anyway.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
It always amuses me when an industry tries to recoup losses and/or bump up proceeds by raising prices ... only to find themselves running into that economic wall called the point of diminishing returns.
It is and has been the case that with large companies like Dell and Gateway, the farther you go from the "standard configuration" the more disproportionately expensive the systems become. For a high-end PC, it just makes more sense to configure and build it yourself; we're talking the difference of $2000 self-built to $2750-$3000 from the large brands for identical or superior parts. This is pretty significant. Feel free to check me on these numbers, but for most buyers they're representative.
This isn't the case with the value PC's. Dell/Gateway/etc do the majority of their business on this venue, and because of their various volume discounts acquire they can meet this demand quite well. For instance, it's common knowledge that Dell can get fast processors from Intel at knock-out prices (then sell them with sub-par components in other areas to unsuspecting consumers, but that's another story). When you're looking for a real budget system (say, $750 sans display), it's very difficult to compete with their product; consider also the technical support and warranty offered by a big company, and it actually makes a lot of sense to buy from them.
By raising the prices across the board, it seems to me that they'd be losing their primary market advantage (or niche, if you will, huge though it may be). I already know I can get a better deal on high-end systems, so what real incentive does a non-beginner have to buy Dell or Gateway if they can go ahead and get value systems cheaper by setting them up manually? Not a whole lot.
Of course, for the past few years the non-beginner crowd hasn't been the domain of the big makers anyway (due to unreliable system quality, software bloat, lack of alternative operating systems, you name it), so my guess is that Dell won't be too concerned. However, a possible upside to this is that smaller vendors might get a healthy boost when they can again offer a price advantage on the low-end systems. If the big makers want to up their prices, they can go right ahead. But I sure do hope that the retail hardware vendors don't take this as a cue to raise their own prices in turn.
not_cub
q='echo "q=$s$q$s;s=$b$s;b=$b$b;$q"';s=\';b=\\;echo "q=$s$q$s;s=$b$s;b=$b$b;$q"
If you have a system that uses at least the Intel 440BX chipset, you can run most current software pretty easily, even Windows XP Professional.
:-)
The big bottleneck nowadays is not the CPU, it's not enough memory and too-slow hard drives. Fortunately, memory prices for PC-100/133 DIMM's aren't really that bad, and most 440BX chipset motherboards with a BIOS upgrade will support modern 7200 RPM ATA-100 hard drive (they are backward-compatible with ATA-33).
I'll almost bet that once you get 256 MB of RAM and a 7200 RPM ATA-100 hard drive, your computer's performance could increase as much as 60%.
I'm running a Celeron A 466 MHz system using an Abit AB-BM6 motherboard, 256 MB of RAM, and a 10 GB ATA-66 hard drive; most everything I throw at it runs pretty reasonably quick.
>> Granted, most of the /. crowd build their own boxes
/. poll. Perhaps something like:
This should be the next
I often build supercomputers
I've build my own home machine
My friend helped me build a machine once
I plugged in my machine and connected all the cables correctly
I can put batteries in a flashlight correctly
Generic CowboyNeal choice
here's a quick article giving a few examples from sony and apple about price increases:
Sony Pushes PC Prices Higher
I don't care, I never buy new computers. I picked up my newest box for $50 a couple months ago. An IBM PC-300GL, 433 Mhz Celeron. It does everything I need.
I won't even think about wasting my money on a new computer.
You can get 256MB PC2100 (CL2.5) in good old Europe for under 70 Euros including (local) sales tax. And the Euros are pretty cheap at the moment, too :-/.
DDR prices.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
I build my own PCs because of two reasons:
1) If there are parts I care about I can put in exactly what i want.
2) If there are parts that don't matter with respect to the use of that machine, I probably have them lying around in the form of components on some old dead box someone gave me for fixing their newer one.
I never really cared what the lightbulb in my microwave looked like or where it was placed. My TV gets all of the channels? Great!! What else will I be asking of it...?
Hey!!! the parentheses are good for something
I am a software guy. I spend my nerd thots on trying to figure out things like why some people like fricken OOP, and not on hardware.
I never really had that much interest in the hardware beyond a basic understanding. My hands are too clumsy and large, and I cracked the &@#$ motherboard the last time I put in extra memory because the doggone things wouldn't lock into place. Fortunately, it still worked miraculously. If I paid somebody, then I could demand a replacement if it cracked on them.
I might add a new drive and try to add memory, but I decided not to try to learn hardware by trial and error because I don't wanna deal with flakey hardware problems. It if does not work the first time and 40 minutes with the manual does not uncover it, to the shop i go.
Table-ized A.I.
Really, the overall quality of x86 PC and even Apple PowerMac stuff is abysmal (I deploy PCs, Apples and Suns in my campus computer labs). PCs especially have a _very_ short lifespan prior to strange logic board / memory related problems and a disproportionate number of PowerMacs either arrive DOA or have problems similar to PCs, though perhaps a year later than a PC would...
I purchased a DEC Alpha Personal Workstation 600au and a Sun Ultra 5 recently after my two PII's started acting strange. I also have a DEC AlphaStation 200 4/166 and an SGI Indy R4400-175 that are both over five years old and apart from hard disk drives have _NEVER_ had any problems with them.
Installed Debian v2.2r5 and testing (3.0) on the AlphaStations and Ultra 5 and expect to keep them running for at least five years (if not longer).
There's something to be said about Big Iron (well, larger than usual) if you want reliability and true long-term value.
What's more, surplus RISC workstation/server equipment is fairly inexpensive and does all the standard PC fare (plays MPEG movies, surf the web, do development) albeit a little slower than your typical gigahertz x86 systems.
I work in a local computer shop (blatant plug: PCW Computer in Orange,CT,USA). so either our prices don't change(and we get all of their business), or our prices go up(and we reap the rewards!).
Sounds like win- win to me.
-D
Brilliantly followed by:
Well, Adaptec SCSI controllers, Muskin memory and Asus motherboards haven't been the magic answer
And adding insult to injury:
Fact is, most clone cases use crappy quality power supplies. I had one literally go up in smoke while the machine was plugged in but powered off
OK, make up your mind, dude. Either you're using quality components, or you're not. You bought a case that came with a power supply. And here you learn your first lesson of "self-proclaimed PC gurudom":
Cases that come with power supplies and simply the cheapest plastic container for CPU you can buy.
Lesson number 2 (hey, I'm a nice guy):
Power supplies that come with cheap ass cases will go up in smoke even under 0 load.
The name brand systems get returned as defective when they can't run a popular OS properly, so that's usually weeded out before they go on sale.
Installing your own OS is not supported. Dell will just re-image the machine and send it back to you, fully working, as it was when you first got it.
I don't know what crap the author was smoking, but whether you're $80B, $30B or even $1B, you already have maximum economies of scale. There's a point of diminishing returns, where a given vendor just really doesn't care how big you are, they can't go any lower on price.
" I know only one single reason (for consumer, not prosumer) to get a 'branded' computer: Support. 1-3 years will be almost enough for everyone."
I can't imagine why? The computer will be obsolete by the first year. Longer only makes the problem worse.
Finny, I have the same. No problems so far. Oh well YMMV of course.
"local shops are the way to go. i like a place where 3 years warranty actually means "if at any time in the next 3 years, something breaks, drive it in, and we'll fix it as fast as possible." "'
Problem is finding a local shop that will give you such a long warrenty.
Two the computer will be obsolete by the first year.
No kidding, I had no problem making my PC a lot quieter by removing unnecessary components, such as the fan on the front, the fan on the CPU and the floppy drive. By just carefullly setting up an airflow path so that it draws the hot air off of the CPU (and graphics card, to some extent) without cables getting in the way, it was very easy to keep my CPU temperature below the "normal temperature" range of my friends' noisy computers full of fans. I also just happened to have gotten a new (well, cheap used) hard drive that both has greater capacity and is quieter than my old hard drive. But the PC is still pretty quiet even with both drives. One big problem was my CD-RW drive's high pitched whine (while idle!) but it has other problems.
>>>One of my Asus motherboards constantly freezes up running Win '9x. With Linux, 2000, or XP however, it's fine.>>>> umm sounds like even you should know that that because 9x is like dos and Linux, 2000, XP are stable operating systems
My home-built PC has only one fan, in the power supply. The hard drive is the noisiest part. I've really started noticing the sound from the fan in my laptop since I quieted my PC.
You didn't mention the MegaHertz phenomenom at all... :)
Funny thing; I live in Finland, and have noticed it is quite common for finnish people to use only the word "mega" when referring to the computer's speed, hdd space, and memory, totally not understanding which of them we are really talking about after all.
A simple example of a conversation between a non-computer person and a tech person:
- Hi! I bought myself a new computer yesterday.
- Oh, what happened to your previous computer?
- It was too slow, it had only 400 mega's and now I have 20 Giga's. And the blue screen was annoying. Now I have the new Windows XP. It is more stable, the blue screen came only once yesterday.
- I see, but were you talking about the hard disk space or the speed there? I noticed you said 400 megs and 20 gigs, but as I remember you had a 400MHz processor and a 4 Gb Hard drive on your previous computer.
- Yes this is very fast, it is a Pentium IV.
- What were the megahertzes again? (As if it would matter anyway...;)
- 20 Giga I suppose.. or was it.. yes it was 900 megas. No, 512 mega's..
- Argh, could you make up your mind about it?
-----
Those "normal" computer users rarely even know the differences between hertz, bits and bytes so things could get quite messy if a tech person was not prepared, or if there was another non-tech person delivering a message between the tech and the other non-tech person... Still with me? Oh well... Yeah, and modems, isdn's and adsl's can be difficult for people to understand. (I was listening a computer (modem vs. isdn) conversation of two of my cousins last easter and it was quite funny too..)
- Voice of Ambience -
Part of the joy of building my own PCs is that I can spread the cost of the hardware over a period of time.
When the time comes for me to think about upgrading (every 30 seconds it seems), I dont rush out and buy a complete set of new parts.
I can choose which parts should be upgraded, then wait 6 months until my bank balance recovers, and then upgrade something else.
I hardluy ever need a completely new computer. With prices dropping all the time (with some exceptions but mostly unpredictable ones), buying for the future is a joke. Every part of my machine has been replaced at some time or the other, most if not all multiple times, but it's never been completely replaced with something brand new. I'm on my 6th CPU, 5th(?) GFX card, 3rd case (small to large to ATX) and kazillionth HDD, and the idea is to upgrade when needed, and not before. Sending it in to some shop to do every little thing costs some in the long run, so I'd rather do that myself.
For a complete PC I know a nice shop that'll put together whatever pieces I want for a brand new PC for 35$ if I want to. After all the trouble I had getting the @#%$@#% fan to snap on last time, it'll be worth it.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I think a lot of people don't really understand why prices fluctuate like they do. Especially when you have large manufacturers such as Dell, Gateway, Micron, etc.
;)
These companies certainly can adjust prices to allow for more profit; the same as any other business. What it all comes down to is the part manufacturers raising or lowering prices due to a number of factors.
Everyone seems to be tied up on LCD's so lets go there. (Geez guys don't you read theInquirer)
LCD Monitor Prices Set to Soar
LCD prices continue rise as CRTs decline
LCD screens cost on average $15-30 US per screen. Add all that plastic bezel crap and I'm sure that adds up to about $350 US
So, when Company X in Taiwan wants to raise prices on LCDs (say maybe by discontinuing its 15" LCD Monitor Line like Samsung did earlier this month) they simply raise them. There are, however, certain economic aspects to this which are boring and as such we shouldn't discuss. So basically the self induced shortage of LCD's by large companies in the East, coupled with high demand for LCD monitors, and other phenomena (Earthquakes anyone?) all affect those distributors so that by the time Dell, Micron, etc. get their LCD's they have to compensate their pricing to reflect those factors. All simply because these companies like money, want more of it, and want a continual flow of instead of settling for less money.
So that is why LCD's are expensive (Got tired of people saying that "This Company" was raising their LCD prices when we all know that they don't even make the LCDs, they just slap their logo on the damn things).
Now onto Ram. I am of the opinion that as computer technology ages we should see a gradual decrease in price as the technology slowly becomes obsolete. For some things, such as ram, this doesn't ever seem to be true.
Yes, I now tell stories to my children about how I used to be able to get a 256mb Stick of SDRAM for $15 dollars and a 512mb Stick for $35. The excess supply no longer exists so Ram manufacturers (Some have coined the phrase Dramurai [Probably Mike Magee]) sort of make sure that there isn't too much of it in the market anymore so that pricing stays very competitive. We have seen the controversial RDRAM steadily decline in price as DDR Motherboards started to replace Intel's Rdram only P4 Chipsets. DDR and RDRAM are pretty much even now which is amazing considering that at one time you could expect to pay $600 US for 512mb of RDRAM (ouch). So, as everyone should know SDRAM is back to normal and the RAM Manufacturers keep coming up with creative new ways to introduce new ram types DDR333 anyone that can increase demand on different modules and they just kind of pull a wheel barrow of cash up to JEDEC so it all (eventually) gets through. Don't believe me? Look for DDR400 in the next month or so.
So Ram to is at the mercy of the manufacturer and then the retailer. It sure doesn't help that when you buy a new computer from Company X that a 512mb Stick of PC2100 DDR (DDR266 for those of you who think that way) which goes for $170-$200 on Crucial.com costs $300-500 to upgrade. Watch out for those tricks.
So the question comes down to: Are PC's really getting more expensive? Maybe through retail vendors. Anywhere else, the prices are pretty much the same with some fluctuations every now and then which are usually based on economic decisions based by the companies that manufacturer everything.
Calm down the fire that fuels the troll inside of you. Delete the nasty letter you're about to send to Dell and try and appreciate how very many factors affect the end result.
:)
>buying for the future is a joke
I always buy the hard disk "for the future" to
reduce the frequency of a completely new
installation.
-- Imperial units must die --
Yes, onsite service as in A+ 'certified' brain dead Unisys monkey that will tinker for four hours while sweating profusely then pronounce that you need to send it in to dell after having wasted half of your day.
And for those who have asked in the past, yes, it's still the same system, and it actually, finallly, and supposedly arrives tomorrorow--so it will sit for a week while I'm off at a conference.
hawk, who *Really* wishes his number-smasher had been here to use for the last week while getting ready for the conference.
Hey, I'm in the same boat. I built a completely new machine a few months ago, spared no cost and used the best components I could find. I wound up with a machine that was about as stable as something I could pick up at Best Buy and had only marginal performance gains. My theory is that QA in the component market no longer exists while the big name companies spend quite a few dollars making sure their machines can do 95% of what they expect the customers to want. If this trend continues, building your own computer will be a fool's endevour in just a few years.
A microwave only has one purpose. A computer has several. In fact, if there were microwave parts out there that would let you cook different foods better (a 'cordon bleu' style microwave, or a 'fast food only' microwave) people would probably go for those.
Most people don't build their own TV, but they do assemble their own entertainment systems (DVD, CD, speakers, etc).
creation science book
In many cases, it's not brand names of the components that give you quality (anymore). All mainboard manufacturers fluke every once in a while, all drive manufacturers do, a bunch of cdrw manufacturers did, etc. But also, many lower-budget manufacturers make excellent high quality and long-term stable products every once in a while.
In any case, motherboard manufacturers such as Abit are fair in their warranty service, if you don't mind waiting two months for your repaired item. Drive manufacturers also are good at sending replacement items for broken drives.
But you don't want to be without PC for weeks waiting for warranty repair, so lesson number one: When you build PCs yourself, build multiple PCs so you can keep spare components laying around.
A problem here is also that it's getting harder to identify which components are of good quality. Review websites will give you some information, but of course nobody has long-term stability tests for those brand-new chipset mainboards.
BUT, neither does HP, or Compaq, or Dell. The last Athlon-carrying HP I've examined contained a mainboard based on the lobu KL133 SDRAM(!) chipset (further rant deleted). Bringing your broken PC back to the retailer 9 months after you bought it also doesn't give to an instant fix or replacement, they might send it to the manufacturer for you though, saving you some shipping cost.
What I'm trying to say is that 'whiteboxing' your own PC is not as simple as going onto pricewatch and finding the cheapes supplier for the latest and hottest hardware reviewed by tom on the web.
Succesfull whiteboxing requires keeping good track of all review websites (and top magazines such as the german "CT magazine"), and paying special attention to stability issues. Even then, don't go whiteboxing just for one PC, because you'll have much more trouble diagnosing which part is broken or unstable in case you have problems. When you have multiple PCs that you are 'whiteboxing', you can often quickly identify problem components by swapping them around.
For succesfull whiteboxing, you will want to run your own stability tests (memtest86, cpu+disk loads, benchmarks, etc), and you will want to have alternate (varying brand or model) components to swap in and out to find the optimal combination.
You will want to do all testing while you don't have to wait for it, so it will have to be at least your second PC, so you can keep surfing the web for example while a 48hour test runs.
Then, you want to deal with suppliers that you can simply send low quality components back to with not much more than a quoted reason like 'unstable', 'unreliable', or 'incompatible'. If you can't find such a supplier, you want one that is 20+% cheaper than the rest so you can simply stoss one in every 5 components you buy in the bin if they are pieces of junk.
For most people, that means that they can only be succesfull whiteboxers if they build computers for themselves, and their family, and maybe the aunts friends, the neighbours daughter, their pets outdour house and that cute girl in the bar.
But that's the way it has always been, and nothing is changing there at all. Whiteboxing is not for the amateur, if you want the perfect system and you're not ready to go all the way, then buy your stuff at the dealer and buy the expensive extended warranty, and forget about whiteboxing. If you don't mind messing with the stuff, reading and learing about the stuff, and doing it for others too (including fixing it when they bring it back broken (which they will!)), then go ahead you've found yourself a more interesting alternative to fishing or stamp collecting.
That's what whiteboxing is all about, it's not about spending a couple of evenings at pricewatch and toms web site after watching a technet show and then flushing the cash for the 'perfect' system that you will love for years to come.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
[insert witty comment here]