Bioware Release Neverwinter Nights Beta Toolset

Max writes "Bioware, the company who have been working on Neverwinter Nights for many years, have recently released a beta version of the NWN toolset for all to download. The toolset is a brilliant feature of NWN, as it allows players to create and script their own custom made adventures. This beta version is limited, but designed to give players an insight in to the massive customisation available in the game. The file itself is 241mb and can be downloaded from Bioware " Update: 05/19 04:10 GMT by M : Zed Pobre submitted an important note concerning the EULA of this toolset, appended below. Update: 05/19 14:16 GMT by M : Derek French of Bioware has a response below. I respectfully disagree with him; I've just read the SDK EULA's for Starcraft and Half-life, and neither of these would permit the company to redistribute your mods for their commercial gain, while Bioware's would. Update: 05/20 05:16 GMT by M : Bioware is going to take another look at the EULA.

Zed Pobre writes "Careful review of the EULA of the Neverwinter Nights Beta Toolset reveals the following clause:

• Section 4(b):

  "By distributing or permitting the distribution of any of your Modules, you hereby grant back to INFOGRAMES and BIOWARE an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means. Infogrames or BIOWARE may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Modules publicly available."

This is more or less the same as if a company producing a compiler wrote into the EULA that by distributing any program compiled with that compiler, the company would permanently get the rights to do whatever they wanted with that program, including reselling it for profit and then forbidding you to publish it yourself.

Derek French, the Assistant Producer for Bioware, confirmed that this section of the EULA is not going to change for the final release. Although he noted in the same message that similar clauses have been used by other companies providing tools for users to create their own content, NWN has a much greater scope than any of them by far, and it's now a profoundly bad idea for someone who wants to keep control of their writing, characters, or game ideas , or use those elements elsewhere, to make a NWN module using those elements publically available.

This kind of clause falls just short of "Bioware Owns Anything You Make", since if they want to sell a module you created themselves, the clause even allows them to forbid you from distributing your original version for any reason. The sole comfort in this is that the clause apparantly does not allow them to make a derivative work of your module, so it would have to be distributed "as is" -- but if the module contained enough "objectionable" material that they wouldn't want to take it for themselves, they could still forbid the owner from distributing it.

Once again, it seems that companies are only against piracy as long as it's their material being pirated. If they can pirate some individual's material by throwing an unreadable EULA up for a second at install time, it's perfectly fine.

The full forum thread discussing this can be found here."

Comments

Mirror?

[orkysoft]

They're going to be Slashdotted like there's no tomorrow... :-(

Online D&D?

[wikki]

This sounds like basically an Online D&D game with a DM and such.

I don't know too many people that play traditional RPGs since everquest and UO came out. Do any folks still get around and play D&D? If not why dont' you? Is it because of time getting people together and whatnot. If so this could be the answer for you.

It sounds like a neat idea maybe it will take off.

Maybe not.

Re:Online D&D?

[raal]

Yes I do. I actually enjoy it as well, after working with computers all day its good to get away from them for a while. I really think we just socalize and BS, do some eating and then play some D&D either way a good time.

Re:Online D&D?

[Marc2k]

I haven't, honestly..the time commitment was too great traveling between nearby cities for a few hours every sunday. I'm going on a co-op job for the next 6 months pretty far away, and NWN was just shown to me by a member of the group today, and we all decided it would be a great idea. An online D&D style RPG has been a long time coming.

Re:Online D&D?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this a troll? Is it because he doesn't have the time to play D&D? He didn't even make the claim that NWN is even better...basically saying with his scedule it is better for him...

Orcs shouldn't be given the opportunity to moderate...they haven't the mental capacity for it...

Moderator: -2, Knee-jerk idiot.

Re:Online D&D?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of people still play old fashioned Dice and paper games. I'm in 4 groups right now (each more than 6 people) and the store I buy from is still in business after 22 years of selling the stuff.

Rifts, Gurps, Shadowrun, D&D (2nd Ed and 3rd Ed), Star Wars (WotC d20 and WEG d6), and Deadlands.

Re:Online D&D?

[flakes]

I still play D&D, if not as often as I like. I'll probably look into NWN eventually, but I can't see that sitting behind a computer will ever have the same feel as sitting at a table with pepsi, cookies and miniatures that look nothing like your character. How can you "roleplay" without having to act?

As for online D&D.. this isn't a new thing. Join an IRC network.. join #D&D or #AD&D and see if there are any games going. The sessions generally happen in a moderated channel, with the DM being the channel operator. Anything that needs to be said to the DM in private can be done in a private message or a notice. I've only played via IRC once, but it was fun. And there was no need to rely on a piece of software to interpret the rules.. it was just like a real session. The only problem with this is timezones, but you'll get that with any online game.

Re:Online D&D?

[WWWWolf]

Yeah, in my case, the problem was that when we played D&D (the original =) was that I didn't have that many friends to play with, and now that each of us has moved to different towns, I suppose we won't be playing anymore - I don't even know how these people are doing these days =)

These days, I like GURPS - but I don't have locals to play with (I suppose I should see what the RPG club of the university is doing =) I have played GURPS a couple of times over E-mail and IRC, it seemed to be nice enough. Some day, I'll try GURPS Myth, with Myth II to e-roleplay the massive combat situations =)

And yes, I'm really waiting for NWN, and will try the editing tools next time I reboot to 'doze =)

Re:Online D&D?

[_Sprocket_]

I don't know too many people that play traditional RPGs since everquest and UO came out. Do any folks still get around and play D&D? If not why dont' you? Is it because of time getting people together and whatnot. If so this could be the answer for you.

Dice & paper RPGs are a social activity. When I find a good group I enjoy playing with, I'll game more often. However, since I've been moving around a fair amount, I usually end up somewhere without a good group and stop playing.

So perhapse the challenge is finding a good group as much as the time to play?

One of the reasons I am interested in NWN is the possibility of getting togeather some of the old gaming group (who mostly have net access, even if they are widely seperated by geography). This could provide an interesting way to play some of the old campaigns.

Of course, I am also working with OpenRPG. OpenRPG is kind of like a digital kitchen table. It provides a gathering place to talk, space for your character sheets and other gaming materials, and a map to place "miniatures". The game itself is up to the players. With this environment, I've played D&D, Star Wars, and even Chess.

I would say the "dice & paper" rpg is far from dead. And perhapse the internet can even help those who don't have a local group. All it takes is the right tools.

Re:Online D&D?

[NeoSkandranon]

Yes. Try getting together for a gaming session when your DM and one player live 2 hours away at a college, the other one has a strict curfew and the third has "more important" things to do. If the toolset pans out like we all hope it will, it will be a godsend for our gaming sessions

Re:Online D&D?

[Anonymous Coward]

miniatures are for girls. let me guess, you started playing D&D after seeing E.T.?

Is there any other way to get the file?

[bc90021]

Say, by mail for a shipping and handling charge?

I know it's a beta program, but it seems to me that a file of that size automatically favours those with broadband, and leaves us dial-up users hoping against hope the phone doesn't disconnect in the middle of the night...

Re:Is there any other way to get the file?

[Anonymous Coward]

EBgames.com will send you the editor on a
seperate disc if you pre-order the game.
I assume that you're going to need the game
to try out your adventures anyway, so you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Re:Is there any other way to get the file?

[orkysoft]

If you use a download program that supports resuming downloads, a disconnection won't mean you'll have to start all over again.

I can recommend wget, which has an option (-c) to enable resuming downloads.

It's available both for Linux (Unix) and Windows. Just Google for "wget download" and possible Windows if you need the port.

Of course, you can also use a GUI program, such as GetRight (don't know url). It has advertising banners, but I don't think you'll notice them if you let it download overnight :-P

Re:Is there any other way to get the file?

[Copperhead]

If you go to this page at Fileplanet.com, they have a CD burning service where you can fill up a CD with files and they'll mail it to you. I'm not sure how much the CD costs, though.

Re:Is there any other way to get the file?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can go to http://nwvault.ign.com/modules/BetaToolset.shtml
They have split the tool set in 20 mb chunks

Re:Is there any other way to get the file?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to EB or some other major retailers (don't remember who else) and pre-order the game. They are supposed to have CDs of the toolset there in the store. You can also order it online and they will ship it to you.

So, what hapenedto the game?

[LastSaneMan]

Ok, toolkit is good, but where is the game?

Re:So, what hapenedto the game?

[Anonymous Coward]

wait

Re:So, what hapenedto the game?

[Courageous]

In a striking reversal of previous software companies, the NWN crew has agreed that the editor for the game is important and actually released it _first_. Unlike other games, the NWN editor is not an afterthought shipped two months after the game's release. In NWN's case, the editor is largely finished and ready for limited distribution. This will allow mod makers, which are expected to be many, to get familiarized with the tools.

C//

Re:So, what hapenedto the game?

[Anonymous Coward]

My advice: Buy Morrowind. You get the editor and the game.

Re:So, what hapenedto the game?

[QuaZar666]

see what you did you had to tell everyone to go to amazon and then /.'d amazon.

Re:So, what hapenedto the game?

[Anonymous Coward]

forever

Re:So, what hapenedto the game?

[B9DV8]

This release is a BETA (and incomplete) version of the toolset. This is to give possible world builders a chance to play with the toolset before the game ships.

They are pushing hard for a June ship date that will include both the toolset and the game.

Somewhere in America...

[ender81b]

The file it's self is 241mb and can be downloaded from Bioware

Somewhere in America, an English teacher is crying and doesn't know why.

Re:Somewhere in America...

[awptic]

Somewhere on Slashdot someone is repeating old jokes and doesn't know why.

Re:Somewhere in America...

[qslack]

Somewhere on Slashdot someone is repeating old jokes and doesn't know why.

Hey, speaking of old jokes, welcome to Slashdot!!

Re:Somewhere in America...

[Jucius Maximus]

"The file it's self is 241mb and can be downloaded from Bioware."

OMG. This is a new low. I thought slashdot stories could not sink this low.

It seems I was wrong.

Yeah, take my karma.

Re:Somewhere in America...

[Anonymous Coward]

And to think, it wasn't even accepted by Taco. This is understandable and even expected from him, but Hemos? Ok, I don't see him posting much these days, but still.

This reminds me of an Australian friend that is always contractualizing words simply for the fuck of it. I generally have to do a search and replace on all docs from him for wen't instead of went and a few others...I've actually devised a script for this so I don't play hack editor while reading through them and can focus on content. I generally wouldn't mention this as specific to any country, but another friend from the same country does the same thing with that word. Cultural differences?

Thanks for the laughs Slashdot.

Re:Somewhere in America...

[pctainto]

Of course, the tears were already flowing when they read

Bioware, the company who have been... have recently...

Re:Somewhere in America...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you mean, "Somewhere in America, an English teacher is crying and doesn't not know why?"

Re:Somewhere in America...

[Chagrin]

By the looks of their apostrophe, so is the Latin-1 charset.

NWN toolset and Linux

[JanneM]

It won't work under Wine yet (though there are some wine hacks), but there is some work towards fixing this here. Check out the mailing list, as that's where most of the info is right now. Any Wine hackers with actual knowledge on these systems are _very_ welcome to pitch in!

The game itself is coming out for Linux, of course.

/Janne

Re:NWN toolset and Linux

[Joe Tie.]

Now I feel less bad about it not working, and only bad about my coding ability not being up to the level where I'd be any help.

Thanks for the link!

Re:NWN toolset and Linux

[infiniti99]

Is the NWN toolset not going to be available for Linux even when the game is officially out? If not, I wonder why Bioware didn't choose to use something like Qt to build their game editor..

Re:NWN toolset and Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like you won't see the toolset for Linux until the fine people at Borland get off their asses and release Builder for Linux.

Mirrors...

[Daniel Wood]

Three comments and the forum is already slow...
Here's the mirrors from the forum:
3D Gamers
Click Here

Baron Bosse
http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE

FilePlanet
http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?file=88066

gec
http://flinx.com/NWN (Mountain View)
http://jibe.biz/NWN (Redwood City)
http://sol.olymp.org/NWN


Use BitTorrent 0.7.1 from http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html to download http://130.237.68.4:8080/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE

http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE

AusGamers
(Sydney Australia)

Re:Mirrors...

[KenFury]

Lets not forget Edonkey2000 which has many users mirroring. I can find over 150 as I speak. Ahh.. P2P being used constructively. NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE

Re:Mirrors...

[Noobie]

Please check your link again. At least my eDonkey doesn't accept it. And search doesn't give any answers either.. So wake up people.

Re:Mirrors...

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems the '|' character got escaped. Here's a working URI:

ed2k:|file|NWNToolsBETAEXE|252932727|ce014f618ca d6 bf2830db892a871f3cb|

Re:Mirrors...

[Noobie]

Why this was modded as Redundant? Correct link was posted after me. And I did try that link first. And I then did try to correct that link for my eDonkey..

Now that's...

[The Pi-Guy]

Now that's what I call a Slashdotting!!

Now, let's do the math, how many mebibytes* wasted...

241 MB * 4,000,000 Readers each downloading * (63/64) because about 98.4% have no clue what the file actually _IS_ turns out to be.... 948,937,500 out of 964,000,000 MebiBytes wasted.

--a well sobered pi, staring at the numbers he just calculated...

* Mebibyte = 1048576 bytes = 2^20, Megabyte = 1000000 = 10^6.

Re:Now that's...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kentucky Fried Jesus on a popsicle stick, do I ever hate the term "mebibyte." You're on Slashdot, for Christ's sake! You don't need to adopt some silly set of buzzwords in order to avoid misunderstandings!

Also, you waste 6 bytes by writing "[mega|mebi]byte" when you could be using "MB" instead. That may not seem like much, but, if you were to write it out 174763 times, you would have wasted more than a me^H^HMB.

file planet? wtf happened?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I am now user 570 of 579, and my wait time is now 90 minutes. hmm that's about 4kB/s. glad i'm buying so much bandwidth. all this and i only had to fill out a market research form? WAT AY BARGAN! GIT ME MORE!

If i'm smart, i can pay them to dedicate me some bandwidth. that will be sweet. i can pay for b/w in BOTH directions now!

Remember back before the bubble when things like this were free? and every 3rd llama on the block didn't have 10mb of bandwidth on their mom's presario? ugh. i'm going to go kill myself now.

"Limited"?

[Ismilar]

It's actually not that limited.
You can do everything that you will be able to do in the full version, there are just only about 15% of the models & textures that will be in the game (or so says the readme file).

I've already made a small module with NPCs, monsters, custom scripts, conversations, etc.... It's great once you learn how to do stuff. Now if only I could actually PLAY the module I created! *sigh* :(

(...and for a Neverwinter scripting competition thing, visit http://members.rogers.com/scriptwars )

Re:"Limited"?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can start by sending you module to bioware, as they legally own it. Maybe they'll revoke the right for doing another modules to you and sell your creation. Always read carefully the EULAs.

(yes, that was sarcasm)

Re:"Limited"?

[linzeal]

So the time has come to reverse engineer their format, build a new editor and make modules that way. I kind of doubt that the EULA on the client software can force you to do something with some nice free and open software. Anyone up for starting this on osdn?

Re:"Limited"?

[Jonny Ringo]

Mine is REALLY Limted. After I installed it (windows 2000) It kept erroring out on me. After I slected a new module (and used the defualt module name) then the area and size it says it couldn' create new area. If I choose my own module name it will give me a different error "Access violation at address 004D787 in module 'nwtoolset.exe'. Read of address 000002D0.

Can any one help?

Mirrors - My good deed for today

[VortexVertigo]

(Grabbed from a NWN Forum post by Derek French - NWN Assistant Producer)

Greetings all:
We are trying to organize a list of Beta Toolset Mirrors. If you have the Toolset and have a mirror of the install files, please post them here.

Also, for your download security pleasure, here are the MD5 checksums for the individual files:

AUTORUN.INF - C14C468795575BCE73D84989262479B4
data1.cab - 181F15C7F19E07C92727D9C49E820E40
data1.hdr - B4F103D55E8FFAAA94505716A7C82DE1
data2.cab - A7B82CE88F1FAF469892FC12208655D8
ikernel.ex_ - 4D63BBFF28AFC7A69B6DEFAF048306A7
layout.bin - 26D40B394685321838E00002C30CBEE7
readme.txt - 6CD49925A70C04B3393DEF39F44F4B51
setup.bmp - 03A01D22277FFC06F91B475696946B81
Setup.exe - 1AEB989E361AF85F5099DE3DA25457F4
Setup.ini - FEB5DB091554FE2E65CFED8E2E9D292A
setup.inx - 5AFB35300108D078A2B942DD85759E45
FilePlanet version: NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE - 6D4B52FE7264C16BE9A0A3B506E9456C

MIRROR LIST: 3D Gamers Link
Baron Bosse Link
FilePlanet Link
gec Link Link Link

(End of Derek's Post)
Yet another mirror I have found: Neverwinter Vault Link

Re:Mirrors - My good deed for today

[Anonymous Coward]

your download security pleasure is not really guaranteed if you get the MD5 hashes from slashdot...

Re:Mirrors - My good deed for today

[linzeal]

Yeah he should identify himself by giving out his home phone number and that of his cute girlfriend so that we may verify her mileage.

hmm... the really want to make level editing easy

[Datasage]

They have wizards for everything... this is definetly a level editor for dummies.

This could be ugly

[quantaman]

Even with broadband a 241 mb download can take a while. Can you imagine how long it will take for a relatively new beta while the site is being slashdotted?!? I'm having flashbacks to 1 kb/s!!

Re:This could be ugly

[insta]

Flashbacks to 1kB/s? More like servers catching fire and exploding. :)

Re:This could be ugly

[WhiteKnight07]

Dude, this is nothing compaired to what happens when a new version of a relatively major Linux distro comes out.

Re:This could be ugly

[Anonymous Coward]

"Even with broadband a 241 mb download can take a while. "

It took all of 25 minutes to download it from 3dGamer.

Re:The Futility of Slashdot's Business Model.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't mind so much if they weren't so obviously not able to sell advertising space, and that all the ads I see are for VA* itself. It's the tedious monotony of slashdot ads that grates me.

I've considered blocking the ads. They're all so damn boring and after this long there's no been a single thing that interests me.

I should block them.

this was out yesterday...

[idontneedanickname]

and ppl have already indexed the spells and special abilities u can get my lookin at what u can give the NPC's, just look around in the forums (u think i'm gonna go look for a link?!)

hypocrisy

[i_am_bill_gates]

Why does the slashdot crew, who ostensibly are anti-microsoft, always tout the latest windows only games. or they announce on the front page that the x-box is now $200. See, if they truly went along with what they say, none of this would ever be posted.

Re:hypocrisy

[galaga79]

Why does the slashdot crew, who ostensibly are anti-microsoft, always tout the latest windows only games. or they announce on the front page that the x-box is now $200. See, if they truly went along with what they say, none of this would ever be posted.

I wouldn't say Slashdot is necessarily anti-Microsoft, it is more a case of Slashdot scrutinising Microsoft and their practices. Don't forget that Slashdot readership is a mixed bunch, some of which hate Microsoft, some love and some are neutral on the matter.

Re:hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

umm, maybe if you had read a little more than shooting your mouth off you'd know the game (and editor) are coming out natively for Linux.

Re:hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, at the rate these guys are progressing, I really don't think they ever intend to actually release the game under any platform.

Re:hypocrisy

[DarkZero]

Well, I doubt most news organizations are pro-terrorists, but they still report on everything relevant that terrorists do. It's called "journalism". You report on what is news and what would interest people, regardless of your feelings on the subject.

Re:Cost

[Anonymous Coward]

$9.99 USD
Free shipping (1-2 weeks)
Or you can splurge and spend the extra buck to get it in 3 days.

Re:Isn't this a Windows-only application?

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe. however the game is going to be released in a linux native format, so it stands to reason that we will soon see a toolset for linux released aswell.

Further information on the toolset

[galaga79]

Here is some further information on the toolset taken from nwn.bioware.com/downloads/toolset.html

The BETA version of the Neverwinter Aurora Toolset provides most of the functionality of the final toolset that will be included in the retail version of Neverwinter Nights. The final toolset will allow users who purchase Neverwinter Nights to create their own adventures with the fully functional game editor that has been used by BioWare in the creation of the official NWN campaign. Just as a Beta Test provides consumers an early look at a game while the development team continues to test the game and define issues, Infogrames has determined that this toolset can provide that experience to players but is in NO WAY FINAL, and thus technical support will not be available.

There is also an introduction on how to use the toolset at the Bioware website. It will be interesting to see what creations this toolset yeilds because there has been many games with great toolsets but almost no mods to speak of. An example that springs to mind is the underrated Dark Reign 2.

Clever bastards...

[bigmaddog]

They give us an editor that can set up wonderful, wonderful things, but that won't let you experience any of them. This means that by the time NWN goes to replication, there's going to be 3x more content online than on the CDs and legions of mod-makers will stalk the malls, camping out in front of software stores, hoping against hope that their creations don't cause any spectacular windows errors when loaded up with the real thing. I'd be seething with anger if I wasn't bouncing off the walls waiting for the thing to finally download. Damnit, 40k/s is not fast enough!

( I know, I'll get moderated into obscurity when someone catches that one tomorrow, when they can't even connect to a server, let alone download. :p )

240 megs?

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's on slashdot. They're fricken screwed.

...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[cryptomancer]

The text is up there, the first few words regarding, "distributing or permitting to distrubute.." Makes me think that if I host a NWN game server, loaded with my modules, but don't allow ppl to download the modules to play by themselves or host on their servers... means it's MINE, ALL MINE! MINE I SAY! and Bioware/Infogrames can contact me with offers to acquire my material, subject to negotiation and approval.. and royalties for me.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[MisterBlister]

How are they going to play your modules without downloading the content, foolio? And if normal users can download your content, so can bioware. And once Bioware has your content they can do whatever they want with it royality free because you agreed to that implicitly by creating the content and using their tools.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[H310iSe]

and besides, it's not like a compiler or something, this is way, way more than a compiler, it's the toolset the NWN designers used to make the game. It's the core of thier 4 years (5? 6?) years of work. If you make something with it (in, say, a week), you owe them at least giving them unrestricted access to it - they put in 5 years X x Developers and you, a week and $50.00. right?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[LatJoor]

You know, if I were making a mod myself I wouldn't mind so much giving them unlimited use of the material I produced. After all, that clause would allow them to enshrine my own ideas as the best of the RPG community -- I consider BG2, at least, a great achievement in RPG composition -- and it also protects them from the risks of being sued if their orginal creations resemble mine. What's aggravating is the clause that allows them to prohibit me from distributing my own mod; they could just lift my own work and stop me from even giving it to my own best friends (legally). What kind of a trade-off is that?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[ZxCv]

If you make something with it (in, say, a week), you owe them at least giving them unrestricted access to it - they put in 5 years X x Developers and you, a week and $50.00. right?

Hardly. That's like saying that because Apple has invested years into developing iMovie, I owe them unrestricted access to movies I make with it. Wrong. Their compensation from me came when I purchased their product. Why should I compensate them any further by giving them any rights to my creations?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Dixie_Flatline]

Okay, disclaimer here: I work for BioWare, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not on the Neverwinter team. I'm just a programmer.

Okay, the difference that I see between the NWN toolset and iMovie is that what you create with iMovie is 100% your content. You went out and filmed it, and put it on your computer. Apple didn't provide you with people to be in your movies, stock plotlines if you're trying to make something cinematic, etc.

When you do something with the NWN toolset, you're USING NEVERWINTER. Not only have you been provided with the tools, but you've been provided with the content. ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION. While that may arguably be the single most important part of a good campaign, the fact remains that you've used our toolset to lay some tiles (which we made) place some models (which we made) use some textures (which we made - but it's possible for you to make) and use a scripting language (which we made) to provide behaviours. Did I mention that the creatures, weapons and items are all things that were made at BioWare? Oh, and you're working within a rule-set that belongs to someone else, too.

In the end, I think it's less about the EULA being a bad thing, and more about the law being something that everyone has to protect themselves from. BioWare and Infogrames lawyers have said (I suspect) that to protect ourselves, we must have this clause in the EULA. Yeah, that sucks, but that's the law. We don't want trouble - who does - but the legal system will make life hell for SOMEONE if something goes bad. I also greatly suspect that something like this is in the EULA BECAUSE there was trouble somewhere in the past.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm just a programmer, and I love NWN. If you don't want to create content because you're afraid that you'll be getting screwed, don't. There's a fantastic single player game that'll be well worth your money, and you don't have to worry about using OTHER people's modules, right? :)

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[ruin]

ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION.

You're kidding, right?

That's a pretty ridiculous chain of logic. What is it you added to your computer in order to help create NWN? That's right, nothing but your imagination. (making some assumptions,) You used an IDE written by another company, wrote in a language invented by someone else; you used various utilities written by other people, your computer was manufactured by others, and so on. Hell, you even used someone else's gaming system. (AD&D) So technically, NWN belongs to a whole group of people who gave you the tools you needed to make the game.

Of course, none of those people put clauses in the licensing agreement that you wouldn't own the things you created. Would you use a compiler that made you give up ownership of any program you compiled with it? If not, why do you expect people to want to use the NWN toolkit?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Dixie_Flatline]

You'll note that we paid for the game system, and pay through the nose for the IDE. However, we don't use 'building blocks' to make games. There is no generic 'monster AI' class provided with VC++. Nor are there generic 'RPG creatures' classes, or 'DM Client Creation Wizards'. When you get NWN, you're getting a lot more than a compiler. Artists worked hard on those models and textures, and programmers slaved over making everything work just so. I've worked with the NWN toolset. The effort that you have to put in to make something cool is pretty minimal in comparison to the back-end that makes it work. Building things in Neverwinter is like building things out of Lego. Take the pieces, add some imagination, and you're there!

My point is that you get a lot more with NWN than with an IDE or something like iMovie.

Keep in mind that I'd be happier without the EULA, too. I'm a BioWare programmer, but I'm a Linux and MacOSX user, and I'm the only person at the company (that I'm aware of) that uses EMACS to edit code. In the end, though, the system makes the rules, and the lawyers just try to keep us out of hot water. The EULA may read harshly, but the way it's worded really DOES eliminate confusion, and I'll bet that it's hard to start a lawsuit with language like that in there.

But hey, I'm just a programmer.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[kwertii]

When you do something with the NWN toolset, you're USING NEVERWINTER. Not only have you been provided with the tools, but you've been provided with the content. ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION. While that may arguably be the single most important part of a good campaign, the fact remains that you've used our toolset to lay some tiles (which we made) place some models (which we made) use some textures (which we made - but it's possible for you to make) and use a scripting language (which we made) to provide behaviours. Did I mention that the creatures, weapons and items are all things that were made at BioWare? Oh, and you're working within a rule-set that belongs to someone else, too.

This is equivalent to Roland or Korg saying, "When you buy our synthesizer, you're USING ROLAND. ... ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION... the fact remains that you've used our toolset to activate a synthesizer (which we made), place some instruments (which we recorded), use some samples (which we made - but it's possible for you to make) and use a sequencing format (which we made) to provide a song. Did I mention that the synthesizer, instruments, samples, and sequencer format are all things that were made at Roland? Oh, and you're working within a user interface that belongs to someone else, too. Therefore, you agree that all songs you make with this synthesizer become the property of Roland."

Or Microsoft saying, "When you code something with Microsoft Visual C++, ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION... You're using our compiler (which we made), our preprocessor (which we made), our editor (which we made), our debugger (which we made), our linker (which we made), our standard object library and API's (which we made - but it's possible for you to make) to code a program. Oh, and you're working within a language definition that belongs to someone else, too. Therefore, any program you make with Visual C++ is automatically the property of Microsoft."

This is clearly not an instance of BioWare's lawyers trying to protect BioWare from some rogue developer who releases a racist mod or something. If that was the case, a Quake-style license that simply gives BioWare the option to forbid distribution of a questionable module would be more than adequate.

BioWare's motives are clear -- they want to be able to cash in when people come up with a really great mod. They see what engine licensees did with e.g. HalfLife, Counterstrike, Alice, etc., and they figure heck, we've got a great engine, a lot of people are going to make a lot of high quality mods for this, so we sneak a clause in the editor EULA giving us exclusive and total ownership of everything made with it. Then, every three months we gather up the best four or five mods off the net and sell them retail at $49.95 a pop.

Sure, this clause of the EULA is legally questionable, so they've probably got a small sum set aside to buy off anyone with a lot of money who threatens to sue. Most mod authors will lack the resources to press legal claims to their intellectual property, and BioWare gets a free cash cow...

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Sheetrock]

However, with an IDE we can create self-executable modules. With NWN, it is a prerequisite for anybody who intends to enjoy one of my Lego-type creations to have their own copy of NWN to use it (which they have hopefully paid for instead of stolen). The more modules there are floating around out there, whether for fee or for free, the more attractive NWN becomes as a product.

It's Quake 101.

Of course a lot of work goes into creating NWN; it's a spectacular product. But a lot of work goes into Microsoft Windows, too, and the owner of that particular piece of work seems satisfied charging per-update rather than royalties for every piece of software that graces the platform. It's not about (shouldn't be about) the relative simplicity of the people creating with your product against the complexity of the work your programmers put into the product. Rather, it should be about finding a marketing system that works for the company.

On a tangentially-related note, The Sims is still fetching $40 in the stores after all these months (years?). Why is that, and is there something to that marketing plan that Bioware could tap into by encouraging a user community of cost and no-cost add-ons to the original product... which is reasonably groundbreaking at this time?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[kwertii]

You'll note that we paid for the game system, and pay through the nose for the IDE. However, we don't use 'building blocks' to make games. There is no generic 'monster AI' class provided with VC++. Nor are there generic 'RPG creatures' classes, or 'DM Client Creation Wizards'. When you get NWN, you're getting a lot more than a compiler. Artists worked hard on those models and textures, and programmers slaved over making everything work just so. I've worked with the NWN toolset.

You seem to be implying that coding up a good C++ compiler is trivial compared to making an RPG game. I'd say they're both pretty tough. Take a look at the GCC source code some time

The effort that you have to put in to make something cool is pretty minimal in comparison to the back-end that makes it work. Building things in Neverwinter is like building things out of Lego. Take the pieces, add some imagination, and you're there!

Maybe so, but then, writing an application in C++ is like building things out of pre-made Legos when compared to writing the same application in assembly. Packages like the Neverwinter Nights editor are merely the tip of the iceberg, an extension of the massive set of pre-made back end tools (from the motherboard firmware and chip design, on up through the operating system and user space libraries) that allow someone to rearrange a bunch of 1's and 0's into a particular pattern that does something useful or interesting to phosphor stuck to glass somewhere.

If BioWare should be allowed to own IP created with their Neverwinter Nights editor, then it logically follows that Intel should own all x86 architecture machine code, compiler vendors should own all programs produced with their compilers, Adobe should own all jpegs produced with Photoshop and all mpegs made with Premiere, Silicon Graphics should own Jurassic Park and Toy Story, Discreet should own all the dozens of games made with 3D Studio Max, etc. After all, engineers slaved away for years to make that fancy protected mode chip. Programmers worked for years to make all those cool plugins. You get a lot more with any of these packages than just a set of CPU registers and I/O ports to the video card, no?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Dixie_Flatline]

While I may say many things in my life, I'll never say that it's easy to write a good C++ compiler. This stems mainly from my view that C++ is a moronic language, invented by an engineer that didn't like sitting down and designing things, and as a result is so complicated that only now, after well over a decade, has the first ever fully compliant compiler.

While I agree with the basis of your argument on some level, that everything is built out of pieces that someone else provided, I'm not convinced that the parallels exist. Maybe they do. :)

In the end, I'm really just trying to stick up for my company, and play a bit of devil's advocate at the same time. I really have no choice but to support EULAs, since they're a product of the legal system that we're in. I think we should really be looking at what can be done about a legal system that ALLOWS EULAs to exist. I don't think I've ever read one that I agree with 100%, but despite the rhetoric, it isn't so easy to just NOT install software.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Alsee]

I'm not convinced that the parallels exist.

One of the components is a scripting language. Right there it puts the toolkit on par with an interperter or compiler, and puts the resulting mod on par with a program. As a programmer you can't fail to see it.

devil's advocate

Demon perhaps, but not devil :)

If you really want to play devil's advocate you have to argue the case for Microsoft's Windows Mediaplayer EULA. That one reserves the right to download arbitrary executables onto your machine at will and the right to explicitly trash your files. (Both of these clauses are motivated by DRM.)

I'm really just trying to stick up for my company

Was there a subtle (or not so subtle) hint that employees should try and do some damage control on the BioWare and/or Slashdor messageboards? :)

-

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Dixie_Flatline]

Nope. I stuck up for my company because I really honestly feel that we have a fine, fine product. Too good to be ruined by some legalese that'll probably never come into play, and is really just the plaything of a system that's too litigation friendly. Programmers want to make games, gamers want to play them. The legal stuff in between is something neither side wants to deal with. Unfortunately, we need to make money and protect our interests, and you want to protect yours. That means lawyers get involved and make the whole thing unpleasant for the lot of us. Alas. :)

And you're right, I can't fail to see the parallel between our language (which is arguably a proprietary language on a proprietary system...but I'm not sure that matters) and a normal compiler. The OTHER pieces of the toolkit, though (the capacity to place objects, creatures and players, and have them exist within the rules of the AD&D system) seem to be a little more than a simple compiler. :)

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[j1mmy]

Why should I compensate them any further by giving them any rights to my creations?

If Apple wanted to do something that mind-bogglingly stupid, they have every right to do so. Nobody would ever use iMovie again.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Comen]

It sems like to me people are looking at this the wrong way.
As is they have a right to build mods for this game.
In all these peoples examples they state that it would be like building a peogram with a compiler etc.. etc..
But if a company wanted to make a compiler that worked that way PEOPLE wouldnt buy it! people wouldnt use it at all. so why make one?
This is different people may actully use the tool set to have fun and play with friends.
If they dont want to give away thier content DONT USE IT. It your choice to use it or not.
Those people are the ones I am going to complain to when I get cancer from smoking!

Besides maybe if you make somthing you think is really neat, dont put it on anything but a home server or something, and maybe contact the company and ask them if you can work a deal, hardly a free one though.

This will atleast stop people from seelling a disk full of junk in stores.
Like when I first bought some of those doom levels on cd in the store released from people on the net and they all sucked.
I even think in that case there was a middle company that pretty much ripped off the people that built the maps, want even id that got paid or the peopel that created the maps.
So I am sure there is good reason for this to be this way.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is equivalent to Roland or Korg saying, "When you buy our synthesizer, you're USING ROLAND
True, but you could substitute the Korg for the Roland and end up with the same thing. Hell, you could even substitute a piano in some cases.

Or Microsoft saying, "When you code something with Microsoft Visual C++, ALL YOU'RE ADDING IS YOUR IMAGINATION
True, but you can give that code to someone else, and it will run completely independent of MS VC++

NWN mods _have_ to run in NWN, so mods only extend the engine. They aren't completely independent objects like a piece of music or an application. Seems much more likely these phrases in the EULA are of the CYA variety than malicious. For example, they allow BioWare to act as a repository for mods, without having to extract specific permission from every author. It allows BioWare to recall mods that exploit the engine to do malice to the system [eg, format HD].

Another way to think of it: companies have Privacy Policies that tell you the user how to expect them to behave. If you don't like it, you don't have to deal with them. You don't have a personal privacy policy, and it's not possible for BioWare to evaluate that policy for each customer before allowing them to buy the editor. The EULA allows bw to describe the behavior they expect of their users. eg: if you share your mod, you have to share it with us, too. Or: don't use the editor to make a mod that is unethical, illegal, or otherwise outside the realm of "right". When you put those phrases into legallese, it just turns out they sound scary.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Alsee]

I stuck up for my company because I really honestly feel that we have a fine, fine product.

I looked on the Bioware and here on slashdot, the only negative comment I saw about your product was that the toolkit was too easy to use which would result in too many crappy mods, chuckle.

The "problem" is that you're sticking up for your company's lawyers, lol.

Last I heard, the "absolutely final, set-in-stone" EULA is being reviewed. The EULA situation has gone too far. People are starting to notice them and it will affect sales. Get your PR and advertizing people on board - this needs to be fixed before it hits the gaming press. Make sure your employer knows that the lawyers work for him, and not the other way around :)

-

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Lacutis]

I don't intend this to sound like a Microsoft flame. But if you in any way think that *any* compiler is "100% compliant", especially Visual C++ you need to look a little harder. Every compiler out there in one way or another adds or "improves" standards in order to make their product more attractive.

Getting to the whole "Bioware Created everything" argument. What if I or a team of people create our own models, textures, sounds, etc only using NWN as an engine for our creation. Should Bioware still be entitled to what we created?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Lacutis]

So what is the difference between "a toolkit that allows me to place objects, creatures, and players within the rules of the AD&D system" and something like Borland C++ Builder which is "a toolkit that allows me to place forms and components within the rules of the windows operating system"?

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Dixie_Flatline]

Oh, I WELL understand that VC++ isn't compliant. However, a couple days ago, there was a /. story that said that C++ FINALLY has a fully compliant compiler. I can't remember who did it, though. :)

And if you create EVERYTHING, it should be yours. As long as you're using some part of BioWare's stuff, though, the legal area seems a little grey. It may be your content, but it's got OUR content, too.

Re:...and if I don't distribute my modules?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the situation is being clouded here.
Legally, the license is treading on ground usually covered by international Copyright treaties.
The fact is, Copyright law doesn't do a good job of coping with the "artistic works" that are found in computer software.
EULA's are an attempt to put some control back in the hands of the companies which produce this stuff.
The unfortunate thing here, is that the clause being discussed is broad enough so that it covers what is "reasonable use".
That's the basis for everyone's objections. It doesn't matter if all you're adding is your imagination... Forget the compiler comparison : This is like Microsoft claiming that everything that is composed in MSWord belongs to them. All you're adding is your imagination :)

The fact is, by providing a toolkit to make NWN scenarios, Bioware is giving you all the tools you need to produce your own "original artistic work" - and original works are protected under Copyright law.
The legals will probably argue over the following :
Is a NWN scenario in itself an original work, or a derivative one? (Derivative of the original work done by Bioware).
If it's an original work - they can't own it unless you were "commissioned" to create it for them, which you patently aren't.

If it's a derivative work, Bioware have already granted you a license to produce that derivation by selling you the product

So it comes down to whether they can claim control over that work through the EULA, or whether they have any control over that work through copyright law. I'm no lawyer, but I doubt this would be enforcable under US law.

Good thing its not from Microsoft

[davmoo]

At the point where I am reading this thread there are 55 replies. Of that, only ONE comments on the EULA. Everyone else is foaming all over themselves trying to download the thing.

If that were an EULA from Microsoft, everyone would be calling for a downloading boycott and legal action...

Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft

[corby]

At the point where I am reading this thread there are 55 replies. Of that, only ONE comments on the EULA...

Yes, but three of the replies have goatse.cx links.

Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

At the point where I am reading this thread there are 55 replies. Of that, only ONE comments on the EULA. If that were an EULA from Microsoft, everyone would be calling for a downloading boycott and legal action...

It's probably because the comments about the EULA weren't in the original posting. They were added about 6 hours later (an hour or so ago), so most of the comments were posted before the EULA update. But of course, that's too logical for you to figure out, it must be Slashdot hypocrisy...

Fuck you, dickhole.

Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft

[Mathness]

The EULA is seriously bad news, if you are to distribute your modules.

As for me, I plan on running a game server. Therefore I will not share the modules, as that cuts down on the chance of players cheating.

I still do not like the EULA, and I hope they change their minds with the final product, otherwise they will dampen the interrest for the module creating and sharing.

Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

derr.. who is deungeon siege published by?? could it be?? what logo opposes gas powered games' on the dungeon siege homepage again..?

WWW.DUNGEONSIEGE.COM

microsoft? no way..

Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft

[mickwd]

What if you (or anyone else) releases modules with your own EULA attached to them ? Who says that Bioware's EULA takes precedence over yours ?

I'm sure there are template EULAs you could find and use if you wanted to do this.

Re:Good thing its not from Microsoft

[AlastairMurray]

If that were an EULA from Microsoft, everyone would be calling for a downloading boycott and legal action...

I think slashdotting it has a similar effect to boycotting it - but also blocks out the non-slashdot commuinity as well. :-D

Massive Multiplayer?

[KoopaTroopa]

I keep seeing references to turning Neverwinter Nights into a large multiplayer game. Are people referring to just creating a really kick-ass world on NWN and then hosting a large-capacity server, or can the load be spanned across multiple servers?

Just what kind of crazy things are people thinking up for this game?

Re:Massive Multiplayer?

[Mathness]

NWN will support 64 players per server. It is possible to travel to different servers via portals, this will enable the possibility of huge worlds. But it will not be a massive MP game, since the amount of players per server is severely limited.

It lools more like a small community playing together on a single server or exploring servers.

Powerful, Easy to Use

[corby]

It's hard to describe just how flexible and sophisticated this toolset is.

There's a wonderful thread here which shows what people have built in the first 24 hours after the tool was released.

However, these screenshots don't convey the depth of the scripting language that you can use to customize just about anything in the game world.

Re:Powerful, Easy to Use

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a wonderful thread here [bioware.com] which shows what people have built in the first 24 hours after the tool was released.

That thread shows the downside of having powerful, easy-to-use editing tools: the reams of utter shit that every basement-living fanboy moron will churn out by the gigabyte.

Good luck finding well-designed levels in that ocean of sewage.

Re:Powerful, Easy to Use

[Anonymous Coward]

The editor should be as complicated as possible.

Works for me. Dedicated designers will use whatever tools are there to create great content. As a player I really don't give a fuck if Down's Syndrome poster children like you can point & drool your way through the toolset. The less access to the tools by incontinent shit eaters like yourself the better.

Re:Powerful, Easy to Use

[jafuser]

I'm probably going to make myself look completely oblivious by asking this, but has anyone seen the editor to Morrowind? At first glance, it seems an order of magnitude more sophisticated than this (e.g. fully arbitrary positioning - not tile based, and there are so many settings for each object). Someone please tell me what NWN is going to have over MW? The only thing I can see that is superior in NWN is multiplayer capabilities and I see it has a sophisticated programming language built into the editor. I'd assume that these could potentially make up for it, but I'm just curious :)

EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

who cares about eulas

Re:EULA

[uXs]

Bioware is in Canada.

:-)

uXs

Re:EULA

[Derek French]

BioWare is a privately owned Canadian company. We are not from the US.

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

which will be invaded and taken over the next time someone uses physical means to show their displeasure with US foreign policy.

I wouldn't get too comfortable.

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

which will be invaded and taken over the next time someone uses physical means to show their displeasure with US foreign policy.

I wouldn't get too comfortable.

uses physical means???? That's a polite way of saying 'kills thousands of US citizens'. I am know this was a joke on your part, but regardless it is in poor taste.

Re:EULA

[Tom]

I stand corrected. I don't know about the legal strength of EULAs in Canada, so the point may or may not be true anyway.

Re:EULA

[I_am_Syrinx]

Of course! Canadians must be exempt from the application of decency and fairness. That explains it. Thanks Derek.

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

oh oh oh. Look who's talking. Of course, the almighty all decent and reasonnable and respectuous Americans are always there to show us the right way to do things and make sure you respect everyone all the time.

I shit on the USA.

Re:EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

whoa...lets not make this a competition on which country is the best on "decency and fairness"

like people, no country is perfect.....and man...NWN looks cool...but if i have to risk all this crap to mod for it...i will reconsider buying it.

They should defintely make it less broad...

mt

[TheDarkRogue]

Great Teacher Largo will be pleased with visible Progress

Re:mt

[TheDarkRogue]

Not Offtopic
online comic, that happens to be pimped at the very top of slashdot at times, MegaTokyo.
the character of Largo WANTS Neverwind nights very much.

topic Pronunciation Key (tpk)
n.
1) The subject of a speech, essay, thesis, or discourse.
2) A subject of discussion or conversation.
3) A subdivision of a theme, thesis, or outline.

Full list of mirrors from forums

[sahrss]

Checksums can be found at the linked Bioware site, but here is a full list of all mirrors posted there thus far:

Use BitTorrent 0.7.1 from http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html
t o download http://130.237.68.4:8080/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE

http://www.gamespot.com is carrying a mirror and has good d/l speed. http://www.endofinfinity.com has a 'Beta Toolset Links' section for mirrors.

since i haven't spotted any german mirrors yet, here's one:
zipped version, ftp.taubenschlag.uni-frankfurt.de

Another German mirror:
http://nwn.daggerdale.de

my own personal server that i put up for the kewl people... im on a t1...
http://neverwinter.mine.nu/vampyre/download .htm

Mirror:
(Tampa, FL)
http://www.sagonet.com/nwn/nwn_tools_beta.exe

AusGamers - http://files.ausgamers.com/?agn=download&id=2280 (Sydney Australia)

Try the first one first, it has the best connectivity.
http://flinx.com/NWN (Mountain View)
http://jibe.biz/NWN (Redwood City)
http://sol.olymp.org/NWN (Zurich, Switzerland)
This one will be coming up shortly:
http://jibe.biz/NWN (Redwood City)

http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE

We at Dambrath.com decided to go ahead and add a mirror of the beta toolset through our website. You'll just have to head to the downloads section. Feel free to poke around the site while you download.

www.3dgamers.com/dl/games/neverwinternights/Thir dp arty/nwn_tools_beta.exe.html

And the Official Mirrors:

MIRROR LIST:

3D Gamers
Click Here

Baron Bosse
http://130.237.161.56/NWN_Tools_BETA.EXE

FilePlanet
http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp? file=88066

gec
http://flinx.com/NWN (Mountain View)
http://jibe.biz/NWN (Redwood City)
http://sol.olymp.org/NWN

I'm still looking forward to creating modules...

[Babbster]

But regardless of how I feel about their quality, they won't be "distributed." This overbearing clause in their EULA guarantees that the savvy people who don't want their ideas to be stolen and then sold for profit by a company will keep their work to themselves and their friends.

For example, I have a friend who is a writer. If he decided to create and distribute a NWN module based upon a book that he had written, apparently Bioware would, according to their EULA, have the option to simply steal it and gain ownership of all the contents (characters, settings, etc.).

Further, what about modules derived from, or inspired by, popular works? If a module contains characters named Princess Leia, Wolverine or Ripley, does Bioware have the right to claim ownership of those names too?

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Bioware couldn't get away with this if challenged. They can't claim the rights of copyrightable (or copyrightED) stories and trademarkable (or trademarkED) characters by EULA proclamation. I guess it continues to prove that EULAs are a joke. :)

-Aaron

Not at all...

[Chasing Amy]

Windows is certainly not the "best" gaming platform ever in terms of tech--hell, I even hung my WinXP the other day playing a game; let alone how many times I hang 98lite which is my primary gaming platform. However, it *is* the computer gaming platform with the largest number of quality released games available, and likely always will be thanks to the sheer numbers of quality legacy games out there that will never be ported to anything else.

Geeks love gaming. A lot of them may wish that all the greatest games came out for Linux too, but that's simply never going to happen--realistically, some of the best games will always be "bought" or developed by Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, or developers in an "exclusive relationship" with them. Consequently, as closed and proprietary as most consoles are, a lot of geeks will buy them. Likewise, as proprietary as Windows is, a lot of geeks will always keep a Win partition or gaming box. One can still dislike the reality while acknowledging it.

I for one will always have Windows for gaming. Even if every new title were to start shipping with Linux support, that wouldn't replace my library of great and classic titles which are Windows-only What I'd really like is to be able to run all my games under one single unified platform--a pipe dream, even with emulators getting more numerous and better. No version of Wine is ever likely to run all of our favorite PC games, unless by some miracle the Win9x source is opened--yeah, maybe in 50 years.Likewise, it will be a very, very long time until we can play *Luigi's Mansion* under a Gamecube emulator for our computers. So, until those days come, there is no hypocrisy in using Windows or another closed platform for gaming--just as I can advocate better and more humane treatment for cows and other animals while not completely denying myself meat; just as I can be a proponent of alternative fuel systems to replace current oil-based systems, without having to walk everywhere.

Aside from which, if every Linux-using geek in the world never bought another Windows game again, it wouldn't make a dent in the sales figures. Almost all games are targeted, naturally, at a more general audience than "Linux evangelists, ages 12-36." What can be useful is buying the Linux versions of games that will have Linux versions--that way voices get heard, and game developers get encouraged to port to Linux. Not buying Windows-only games will not, however, encourage porting to Linux, since most end-users use Windows and a boycott by Linux users will be statistically insignificant.

Not that it matters, anyway, because I think NWN will have a Linux verion anyway if I'm not mistaken. So, go buy the Linux port when it comes out and stop whining. If I misread and a Linux port isn't planned, then write and politely ask for one, and enough letters may convince them.

In any event, stop trolling and go to bed. No soup for you!

Re:Not at all...

[mocm]

Actually, the Linux, Mac and Windows version will all come in the same box. (They just dropped the BeOS version)

Troll?

[wikki]

someone explain how that comment is troll?

Re:Troll?

[martissimo]

good question

that is the essence of this game, a basically old school DM game, integrated with the new graphics.

*shrug* beats the heck out of me how pointing out how it has the advantages of both is trolling, but i certainly do like the concept behind the game, can't wait to see how it turns out

Re:Troll?

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably the closest they could pick to "-1 Ignorant" for not having heard of and known about NWN for the last 2 years.

No, a different section covers popular works

[CoreyGH]

They've got that part about you making modules with popular works covered in a different section of the EULA.

"(3) your Modules must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties"

So, basically, what this means is that if you make a module with copyrighted stuff in it you are not allowed to legally distribute it. And since Bioware only recieves control of modules you legally distribute, they wouldn't get control of Princess Leia or whatever.

By the by, it also follows that if you wanna protect your ideas, then throw a little framed picture of Calvin and Hobbes on a nightstand in some hut somewhere in your world. Sure, the clause I mention here would give Bioware the power to make you stop distributing it, but they already have that power from the clause that we're already upset about. At least they couldn't get control of it. -- Said argument relies completely on the assumption that one piece of copyrighted material makes the WHOLE module illegal.

Re:No, a different section covers popular works

[Babbster]

Once I ready through the complete thread over at Bioware, I understood the part about popular works. I still submit that this is the kind of thing that would get tossed in court if someone chose to fight Bioware on it, much as EULAs in general would.

-Aaron

That's terrible

[TheDanish]

I heard a lot of hype about this, but...now that they had that part of their EULA, there's NO way I'm going to write anything for them. I won't buy it, either. There's simply no way that I'm just going to hand over my rights to anyone for using their software. It's ludicrous, to say the least, even if it's NOT from Micro$oft.

Re:That's terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Once again the slashdot community shows its ignorance. Slashdot really should change their tag line to 'News for socialists twits. News that's found everywhere else.'

Do you really think that the EULA is designed for them to steal your crap? My we think highly of ourselves. Look stupid, it's in EVERY EULA for software that has editing. Simple. It's designed so when your dumbass goes and makes Lord of the Rings using their tools they won't get sued.

Slashdotters...once again showing how stupid they are! Go guys! The only reason I came back to this site of morons is because PlanetNW had a link. Bye bye now.

stupid....

EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

"By distributing or permitting the distribution of any of your Modules, you hereby grant back to INFOGRAMES and BIOWARE an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means. Infogrames or BIOWARE may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Modules publicly available."

OK, this is pretty interesting.. are they claiming that any module you make (whether with their tool or not) is subject to this?

If I make my own module editor, and distribute it, and someone makes a module with it, do they expect that person to be bound by the EULA?

If so, sounds like a good case for a copyright suit if they try to redistribute it without REAL authorization.

Bioware's "License" is Not the First

[ewhac]

Bioware's so-called "license" that lays claim to anything you create using their tools is not the first of its kind. Activision pulled exactly the same shite a few years ago with a "license" attached to a version of Worldcraft. And yes, Activision got flayed alive for it. But it's not clear whether they learned their lesson. Bioware certainly hasn't.

A copy of the old Activision/Worldcraft license is appended below (with minor reformatting for HTML). Honestly, these childish people who complain so bitterly and shrilly about "theft" really need to take a good, hard look in the mirror.

Schwab

________________________

Software License Agreement Summary:

• These Utilities are for your sole, personal use
• They are unsupported by Activision, Raven, and id
• Levels created by these tools may not be sold or used commercially as defied [sic] by the Software License Agreement below.

The use of this software is subject to the terms of the Software License Agreement below. You must accept the Software License Agreement before you can use Level Utilities. The Level Utilities are provided strictly for your personal use. The use of the Level Utilities is subject to additional license restrictions contained in the Software License Agreement and may not be commercially exploited.

SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT

IMPORTANT - READ CAREFULLY: THE LEVEL PROCESSING UTILITIES (THE "LEVEL UTILITIES") FOR USE WITH HEXEN II (THE "PROGRAM") ALLOWS YOU TO CREATE CUSTOMIZED NEW GAME LEVELS AND OTHER RELATED GAME MATERIALS FOR PERSONAL USE IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROGRAM ("NEW GAME MATERIALS"). THE USE OF THE LEVEL UTILTIES IS SUBJECT TO THE SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. BY USING THE LEVEL UTILTIES, YOU ARE CONSENTING TO BE BOUND BY AND ARE BECOMING A PARTY TO THIS AGREEMENT WITH ACTIVISION, INC. ("ACTIVISION"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, DO NOT USE THE UTILITIES AND COMPLETELY REMOVE THEM FROM YOUR COMPUTER AND YOUR POSESSION.

LIMITED USE LICENSE. Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non- transferable, limited right to use the Level Utilities for the purpose of creating New Game Materials solely and exclusively for personal use. For purposes of this Agreement, "New Game Materials" represent computer data that modifies, substitutes for or adds new materials to the materials currently contained in the Product, thus modifying or replacing one or more existing game levels and other constituent elements provided in the Product. You shall not create New Game Materials, or tools that have no substantial purpose other than to contribute to the creation of New Game Materials, except as expressly permitted pursuant to this Agreement.

All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by Activision and, as applicable, its licensors. The Level Utilities are licensed, not sold. Your license and the use of the Level Utilities confers no title or ownership in the Level Utilities or the New Game Materials created using the Level Utilities and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Level Utilities or such New Game Materials.

OWNERSHIP. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Level Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you using the Construction Kit are owned by Activision or its licensors and are protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. In the event that you should, by operation of law, be deemed to retain any rights in any New Game Materials created by you, you, by using the Level Utilities, hereby irrevocably assign, without any further consideration and regardless of any use by Activision of such New Game Materials, all of your rights and interest, if any, in and to such New Game Materials to Activision. You also hereby grant Activision an irrevocable, perpetual, exclusive, fully paid and royalty-free license to exercise any rights, including moral rights, to any and all aspects of the New Game Materials. You agree that Activision shall have the full and complete right to package, publish, print, copy, promote, market, distribute, transfer and display the New Game Materials created by you and prepare derivative works based upon such New Game Materials, and any derivative works thereof, anywhere throughout the world.

LICENSE CONDITIONS.
You agree that as a condition to Activision's consent to allow you to use the Level Utilities, you will not use or allow third parties to use the Level Utilities and the New Game Materials created by you for commercial purposes, including but not limited to selling, renting, leasing, licensing, distributing, or otherwise transferring the ownership of such New Game Materials, whether on a stand alone basis or packaged in combination with the New Game Materials created by others, through any and all distribution channels, including, without limitation, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution. You agree not to solicit, initiate or encourage any proposal or offer from any person or entity to create any New Game Materials for commercial distribution. You agree to promptly inform Activision in writing of any instances of your receipt of any such proposal or offer.

If you decide to make available the use of the New Game Materials created by you to your friends, family, co-workers and other fellow gamers, you agree to do so solely without charge.

You shall create New Game Materials only if such New Game Materials can be used exclusively in combination with the retail version of the Product. The New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-alone product.

New Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any COM, EXE or DLL files or to any other executable Product files.

New Game Materials must not contain any illegal, obscene or defamatory materials, materials that infringe rights of privacy and publicity of third parties or (without appropriate irrevocable licenses granted specifically for that purpose) any trademarks, copyright-protected works or other properties of third parties.

New Game Materials must contain prominent identification at least in any on-line description and with reasonable duration on the opening screen: (a) the name and E-mail address of the New Game Materials' creator(s) and (b) the words "THIS MATERIAL IS NOT MADE OR SUPPORTED BY ACTIVISION."

You will not use the Level Utilities to reverse engineer, extract source code, modify, decompile or disassemble the Program, in whole or in part.

TERMINATION. Without prejudice to any other rights of Activision, this Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its terms and conditions. In such event, you must immediately discontinue the use of the Level Utilities and any New Game Materials created using the Level Utilities.

INJUNCTION. Because Activision would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that Activision shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Activision may otherwise have under applicable laws.

INDEMNITY. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Activision, its partners, licensors, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents (specifically including, but not limited to, Id Software, inc., and Raven Software, inc.) harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Level Utilities pursuant to the terms of this Agreement

MISCELLANEOUS. This Agreement represents the complete agreement concerning this license between the parties and supersedes all prior agreements and representations between them. It may be amended only by a writing executed by both parties. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be unenforceable for any reason, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable and the remaining provisions of this Agreement shall not be affected. This Agreement shall be construed under California law as such law is applied to agreements between California residents entered into and to be performed within California, except as governed by federal law and you consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal courts in Los Angeles, California.

If you have any questions concerning this license, you may contact Activision at 3100 Ocean Park Boulevard, Santa Monica, California 90405, (310) 255-2000, Attn. Business and Legal Affairs, legal@activision.com

Hexen II(tm) ©1997 Raven Software Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Id Software, Inc. software code contained within Hexen II(tm) © 1996 Id Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Developed by Raven Software Corporation. Published by Id Software, Inc. Distributed by Activision, Inc. under sublicense. Hexen® is a registered trademark and Hexen II(tm) is a trademark of Raven Software Corporation. The Id Software name and the id logo are trademarks of Id Software, Inc. Activision® is a registered trademark of Activision, Inc. All other trademarks and trade names are the properties of their respective companies.

Greetings from BioWare

[Derek French]

Hi all. I just wanted to jump in here and try and clear up some of the confusion.

First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new. They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.

Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.

Babbster - no, you cannot use your friend's novel nor on Star Wars, or any other existing licenced or copyrighted content for the basis of a module. This is prohibited by the EULA. Your friend can create a module based on his novel. CoreyGH has it right.

Some other comments:

Windows only. Really? Then I guess I better shut down this Neverwinter Nights Linux dedicated server that I am playing on right now...

Toolset is Windows only. Borland was supposed to have Builder for Linux done a long time ago and that was what we were going to use for Linux. We use Builder for Windows for the Toolset. The Linux Toolset is just not happening right at this moment.

The distribution statement means that you cannot charge anyone to play Neverwinter Nights. Neither for modules, nor for server access. This isn't a MMORPG.

And yes, our game is designed such that the end users do NOT need to download the modules in order to play on the server. No matter what module the server is running (well, pretty much).

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Mac Nazgul]

Any news on a possible Mac version of the toolset? Come to think of it what is the Mac versions status? Will it be OS X native?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[PacMan]

Hi all. I just wanted to jump in here and try and clear up some of the confusion.

First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new. They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.

Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.

What exactly does this protect the consumer from? The burden of receiving royalty cheques from the sale of successful modules they have written?

If you have no intention of using the powers granted by the EULA, then why do you include them? Perhaps they were included on the sly by your lawyers to encourage law suites and generate more income for the lawyers.

I have been looking forward to the release of NWN for some time, but clauses of this sor may make me think again.

I know! Brilliant idea! I'll develop the modules during busines hours, then your lawyers and my employers lawyers can fight it out between themselves to see who gets to own what I produced.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[letoram]

Quake3 EULA, the relevant part:

2. Permitted New Creations. Subject to the terms and provisions of this Agreement and so long as you fully comply at all times with this Agreement, ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to create for the Software (except any Software code) your own modifications (the "New Creations") which shall operate only with the Software (but not any demo, test or other version of the Software). ID reserves all rights not granted in this Agreement, including, without limitation, all rights to ID's trademarks. You may include within the New Creations certain textures and other images (the "ID Images") from the Software. You shall not create any New Creations which infringe against any third party right or which are libelous, defamatory, obscene, false, misleading, or otherwise illegal or unlawful. You agree that the New Creations will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country in violation of the U.S. Export Administration Act (or any other law governing such matters) by you or anyone at your direction and that you will not utilize and will not authorize anyone to utilize, in any other manner, the New Creations in violation of any applicable law. The New Creations shall not be downloaded or otherwise exported or re-exported into (or to a national or resident of) any country to which the U.S. has embargoed goods or to anyone or into any country who/which are prohibited, by applicable law, from receiving such property. You shall not rent, sell, lease, lend, offer on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise commercially exploit or commercially distribute the New Creations. You are only permitted to distribute, without any cost or charge, the New Creations to other end-users so long as such distribution is not infringing against any third party right and is not otherwise illegal or unlawful. As noted below, in the event you commit any breach of this Agreement, your license and this Agreement shall automatically terminate, without notice. You hereby agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless ID and Activision and ID's and Activision's respective officers, employees, directors, agents, licensees (excluding you), sub-licensees (excluding you), successors and assigns from and against all losses, lawsuits, damages, causes of action and claims relating to and/or arising from the New Creations or the distribution or other use of the New Creations or relating to and/or arising from your breach of this Agreement. Your obligations set forth in the immediately preceding sentence shall survive the cancellation or termination of this Agreement.

Basically,
1. The Mod should only work with the full-blown application, not the demo
2. Do not distribute the modification to anyone that isn't legal allowed to purchase/use the application.
3. Don't sell the modification without going through us
4. Don't distribute if you break any other partys trademarks, copyrights or similar.
5. Break this EULA and you're on your own, ID & affiliates and not responsible for your actions

Now this doesn't seem half as harsh as "grant back to INFOGRAMES and BIOWARE an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means." basically saying ALL YOUR MODS ARE BELONG TO US (sorry, just had to do that :-)

You don't see photoshop telling us that any creations formed by the use of this application also belongs to adobe.

I seriously doubt that you need to go to this length to protect us and yourselves against hungry law-men.

Speaking for myself, this won't affect my pre-order, I will still wait for the sweet thing to drop down in my mailbox, but I won't be doing any mods (if Wine or a C++ Builder port makes the tools usable under linux)

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Jelloman]

If you're not going to rip off your customers, why do you need the clause? Saying, "the lawyers made us do it" is a cop-out; they work for you, not vice versa. Saying, "other companies do it too" is also a cop-out; your mother should have taught you that (something about people jumping off a bridge... ring a bell?)

You seem to have a lot of rules about how people aren't allowed to play your game. I think it's pretty lame that you're preventing the creation of an economy around NWN; that was the potential that really excited me (but not any more). With all the years you've spent on it, and all the promise it shows, it could be become the biggest thing ever to hit computer gaming. Except you don't seem to want that to happen. Get on the cluetrain.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Sheetrock]

Hello, and thank you for coming to Slashdot to address our concerns. I appreciate that you take enough interest in your work to come into the community and talk with us, and I hope that you'll take my comment to heart without offense as none is intended.

I've been quite concerned lately with the direction EULAs have been taking, and with some of the decisions being made at the leading companies in the game industry in particular. I would like to address two provisions in your EULA that could perpetuate or create new restrictions on players and hopefully persuade you to reconsider them.

One thing that troubles me is that your company is attempting to establish editorial control over the content users might wish to create and distribute. How am I or anyone else to know whether or not a package we labor over for days (to release for free to your other customers, natch) is going to meet with your company's standards? What risk does your company really incur if it permits customers generate whatever they desire with the toolset (and deal with the law themselves if they violate it)? More importantly, what liabilities has your company taken on now that it has more or less declared itself the policeman for all content generated with its tools? I know that the ISPs lobbied their asses off to avoid that kind of responsibility; are you sure you guys want it?

The second thing that concerns me is that with this EULA your company is attempting to create rights for itself to its customers' work. It's suspicious even if you only intend to use it to create a 'best-of' pack to distribute with Neverwinter Nights when sales of the original slow down (and, hey, I personally think that it'd be pretty cool to have happen with my work, but I'd at least appreciate an e-mail -- the Linux folk aren't demanding a copy of your software just because you're running it on their server, are they?) I'm comfortable with the idea that you don't want me or anyone else to sell modules I create for a profit, as I understand you'd probably prefer to license your engine for such things, but the statements in the EULA are excessively broad if this is all your company really wants to accomplish.

Whether or not you actually intend to exert this control, the perceived threat in this clause is enough that I wouldn't risk creating content for your game, and given the impact I believe it will have on the amount of quality content available for download I'd probably have second thoughts about buying it to begin with. I certainly don't think that any of you are out to screw us, but then again I never thought that Blizzard would punish their loyal fans either. I recognize that overbroad EULAs have become one of the hallmarks of the game industry from the big players, but I sincerely hope that, as an expression of goodwill to those of us who plan to line up at the stores to spend our hard-earned money on your game the minute it leaves the truck, you will have the courage to break with that way of thinking enough to rewrite the EULA to protect our interests with the same enthusiasm as you have protected your own.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

The distribution statement means that you cannot charge anyone to play Neverwinter Nights. Neither for modules, nor for server access. This isn't a MMORPG.

Regarding distribution of modules, surely you're aware that "distribution" doesn't require any exchange of money?
Since "No Distribution" means just that, how do you justify the ban on the gratis release of User-created Modules?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[kyras]

First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new. They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.

<MOTHERLY TONE>So if everyone else were to go jump off a bridge, you would too?</MOTHERLY TONE> Seriously, just because other companies have done it before does not make it okay. Please, someone explain how this helps protect the end user.

Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.

This is like when the government says "sure, we have the ability to wiretap anything we feel like, but we would never do that because it would piss the citizenry off". A slippery slope, indeed... It begs the question: If you have absolutely no intention of ever using the power this clause gives you, why even bother to put it in there? Particularly when it garners this kind of reaction.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, I knew they were full of shit stating that it was the same as any other game editor's URL, I just didn't feel like going through my Worldcraft, Quake3, StarCraft, and so on EULAs to find the relevant points.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Danse]

Here's what the Starcraft EULA has to say:

C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not be entitled to:

(iii) use or allow third parties to use the Editor and the New Materials created thereby for commercial purposes including, but not limited to, distribution of New Materials on a stand alone basis or packaged with other software or hardware through any and all distribution channels, including, but not limited to, retail sales and on-line electronic distribution without the express written consent of Blizzard;

Aside from that, there is no other limitations on what you or Blizzard may do with any "New Materials" that you create. (It said earlier that "New Materials" refers to custom levels created with the editor.)

So, yeah, I think he's full of crap when he says that these other EULAs contain the same control freakiness as Bioware's EULA. In fact, I'm going to send him an email and a link to this thread and maybe he can come back and explain himself.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[AftanGustur]

First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new.

What you are stating is your *explanation* of why you are doing this. It's not an *justification*. It's still immoral to have this kind of "legal stealing" clause in the EULA.

If everyone drives at 160km/h where the limit is 130 km/h you would likely also drive at 160km/h but it ***does NOT justify the wrongdoing***

Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.

We hear what you are saying, but it's what you *do* that counts.
So, if you don't plan to use the clause you can remove it from the EULA, right ?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[56ker]

Places have been selling mods for these games (I presume without permission from the publishers) for ages. Does that mean they're all in breach of the EULA? If so why haven't the publishers concerned sued them? Or does it all go back to whether a EULA is legally binding or not?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[flend]

It seems to me that Bioware is ignoring a time proven economic model here.

Would Parker pens be so popular if everything you wrote with them became the property of Parker or if Parker could revoke your rights to what you created at any time?

Are Microsoft bemoaning the poor sales of MS VC++ or are they making a lot of money on a compiler which doesn't place restrictions on compiled code?

In what way will it hurt Bioware's profits it's there's an active fan community producing, or even selling modules? To use said modules, you need the game and such submarkets keep the market for the original product alive after it's shelflife.

If I were Bioware, which I am obviously not :), I would not only give people free reign on their modules but grant them a royalty free license to use the textures and models that came with the toolkit, for the sole purpose of writing modules.

"Infogrames or BIOWARE may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Modules publicly available."

This clause is particularly disturbing.

Well, Bioware, you've lost another sale.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Alsee]

The EULA is an outright licence to steal.

BioWare can take my creative labors, sell it themselves, and yank my rights to to my intellectual property. Not just comercial rights, but the right to distribute it at all.

Because its suicide.

This seems to admit that the EULA grants BioWare powers that "shock the sensibilities". The EULA is disgusting and you know it.

Pardon me for not trusting BioWare not to actually USE the disgusting aspects of the EULA. We've all seen companies commit suicide. They also try to get away with as much as possible just short of commiting suicide. And companies get bought out. If you really have no plans to use the licence in a suicidal manner, just REWRITE it.

Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. All of them say the same thing that we are saying.

I'll take your word for it. I never bought those particular games. NeverwinterNights sounded cool, but I can tell you there's no way I'm going to buy it, much less make content for it, so long as that EULA clause exists.

-

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[The Cat]

It might be a good idea to at least consider modifying the license so that commercially viable products aren't discouraged. Pre-existing ownership (not license, but ownership) of someone else's creative effort is an inequitable agreement, legal concerns notwithstanding.

Surely Bioware wouldn't exercise their rights under this license to acquire and then profit commercially from someone else's work? If Bioware would compensate a particularly good module team, then the license should state that, or at least allow for it. Id, for example, has always included commercial terms for their products.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Ryan Amos]

It seems to me that this "legal stealing" clause is there to keep them/the consumer from getting ripped off. Yes, the clause COULD be used to rip fans off. But it also protects fans from being ripped off by third parties. As he says, the clause won't be used to simply rip fans off; he's right, it would be suicide.

Another analogy: I bought a gun to protect myself from intruders. Theoretically, I can use that gun to shoot anyone I decide I don't like. But I don't, because the consequences far outweigh the benefits of doing so. Same thing here. Just because they can doesn't mean they will. Infogrames is still a small enough company and the game market is volatile enough that one bad PR disaster can sink a game and cause massive loss in profit. They also know that one successful game can make a company big time, and one big flop can put them out of business.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[_Sprocket_]

Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide. And we aren't doing it either.

Others have already brought up the "if you don't plan to use it, why do you have it" point. I would like to expand that a little further.

Let's be civil here and assume everyone at Blizzard are "cool" and not likely to abuse this clause. That's fine for now. But this is a business. Leadership in that business can change. Who's to say Blizzard's leadership will always have the same view towards use of this clause? Businesses sometimes go under and their assets get sold off. Who's to say the new owners of the NWN asset won't decide to make use of its pennies-on-the-dollar investment and exercise this clause?

Business law does not work on promises and intent. It works by the written word. And NWN's EULA has some words that lend themselves to some serious potential abuse of Blizzard's customer base. All this talk of intent and other EULAs does nothing to change the wording of this EULA.

Want to really take care of the confusion? Round up your corporate legal cousel and fix the EULA.

I hope Blizard does change the EULA. I would hate to have this issue darken all the hard work Blizzard has put towards what promises to be an increadible gaming environment.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[kubrick]

Want to really take care of the confusion?

I'm confused.

Blizzard wrote Warcraft, Starcraft, etc.

Bioware wrote/are writing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.

Blizzard may have an EULA like this, but why criticise them in response to a comment from a Bioware guy?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[RickHunter]

no, you cannot use your friend's novel [...], or any other existing licenced or copyrighted content for the basis of a module. This is prohibited by the EULA. Your friend can create a module based on his novel.

This seems rather silly. You're saying that, while my friend can grant me permission (as he is the copyright holder on the novel) to photocopy it ten thousand times and sell the copies, he cannot give me permission to produce a Neverwinter Nights module based on his book? I'm sure that any authors who'd been planning to hire programmers or skilled graphic artists to create modules for their settings will be very saddened by this restriction.

Yet another case of a large software company attempting to redefine law through an illegal contract, I guess. (No meeting of minds, revealed after the sale, no legally binding signature.... Even the judgements/laws that say that using software is copying are somewhat tenuous justifications)

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Danneskjold]

From a copyright perspective, there are some good things and bad things with these clauses.

First, mod files are generally recognized to be derivative works of the games they work "off of." The right to produce derivative works is presumably held by Bioware, although it may have been assigned to Infogrames. Either way, it's clear that by buying an audiovisual work a person does not automatically have a right to produce derivative works of that audiovisual work. Bioware should be lauded for allowing this content to be created at all.

However, the reservation of the right to control your works is not as sensible, in my opinion. While Bioware may want to make sure that the Dungeons and Dragons license is not sullied (which they need to do to preserve the value of the D&D trademark), this clause plainly seeks to establish the right and ability to control the works created by users of the NWN toolset.

Bioware could easily be sued by a company like Sony if you produced a module that was similar to say, a zone of EverQuest. Sony could legitimately claim that Bioware should be vicariously liable for the actions of its users. As many of us remember so well, Napster almost won the suit against it on contributory infringement (due to a substantial non-infringing use) but lost on vicarious liability because it:

1. Had the right and ability to control its users, and,
2. Received a direct (or possibly indirect) financial benefit from the direct infringement of another.

I don't think a lawyer would have a hard time proving an indirect financial benefit from the creation of mod files, and the clause in question seems to provide the right and ability to control. I wonder if Bioware is even aware that they are potentially liable?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[SignalFreq]

What it comes down to is anything created with the BioWare NWN toolset and then distributed is considered property of BioWare. So all I really have to do is create my *own* toolset for editing and then I can distribute modules as my property or public domain.

Do you have a way to distinguish modules created by your toolset from modules created by a third party toolset?

With the vast majority of tech geeks that play BioWare games, it is only a matter of time before an editor gets released that has no restrictions on the content created.

Or are you going to restrict the creation of third party toolsets as well?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[nagora]

Babbster - no, you cannot use your friend's novel nor on Star Wars, or any other existing licenced or copyrighted content for the basis of a module. This is prohibited by the EULA.

You need new lawyers, mate: the one's you're using know NOTHING about copyright. If my friend gives me permission to use his novel it is none of your business. You can write any crap you like in your EULA but it isn't a magic document that suddenly allows you to interfere in other people's copyright.

They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.

Yadda yadda yadda. What a load of fucking bullshit. You people are all the same, "I can steal your code/ideas but you can't use mine; it's for your own good". Who do you think believes this crap? 5-year-olds? You're just another pirate trying to hide behind legal-sounding claptrap.

In closing: stick it up your arse, you crook.

TWW

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows only. Really? Then I guess I better shut down this Neverwinter Nights Linux dedicated server that I am playing on right now...

Right, because we all know that a headless server running on an internal company machine OBVIOUSLY means a Linux client will be released commercially for consumers.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

Suck it down. As he said, they won't actually EXERCISE their right to take your modules, but they need to write that in to protect themselves.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users.

You don't really need to protect the end users. You are not the government, they can protect themselves.

Babbster - no, you cannot use your friend's novel nor on Star Wars, or any other existing licenced or copyrighted content for the basis of a module. This is prohibited by the EULA.

This is prohibited (as far as it matters) by Copyright law. Why do you need to duplicate it?

Now I understand the "you can't charge for modules" and the "we can tell you not to distribute them" terms. That's understandable, they allow you to release these tools while still retaining the ability to license the engine to other game companies. (and the ability to censor content you don't want associated with your game, but it seems to me that this would put you at greater risks for lawsuits. ianal so whatever.)

The problem I have is that you can gather other people's work, without warning, and sell it yourself. Saying "We will never use this terrible weapon" in non-binding comments in forums doesn't really instill much trust.

You've got a big spikey stick here that says "We can screw you and you can't do anything about it" that you're holding over our heads and then saying "Oh, but we won't use it. We promise!" (Well ok, not the promise part.)

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Babbster]

Well, Derek, it certainly is nice of you to come here and talk about this, but you're dead wrong, and I might just (along with friends) make a mod based on a friend's *copyrighted* work and distribute it, waiting eagerly for your cease and desist letter to challenge it.

As someone else here has already had, you need to get new lawyers if this is your counsel-advised legal opinion. Copyright exists in order to give copyright holders the right to make a reasonable profit from their creations for the duration of the copyright (which is too long right now but that's an entirely different subject). That means that my "friend" has the unalterable right to say to me (and put such in writing), "Sure, Aaron, you are welcome to use Moe, Investigator of the Odd; Robin the Clown; etc. in your role-playing module! Go to town!"

You have no more right to restrict my ability to do this than (as yet another poster pointed out) Microsoft has the right to restrict my ability (having been given permission) to use C++ to create an entirely new video game based on those characters.

I understand that game publishers think (and have apparently been told by their lawyers) that if something is in the EULA, it must be true, but if this type of restriction is pressed I think you are going to find out that you're wrong.

-Aaron

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Babbster]

As a sidenote, I plan to include in the mod at least one NPC who will say "Come sue me, Bioware!" in every box of text. =P

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

More importantly, you plan to buy the game despite having had fair warning about the company's intent. Predicted outcome: they keep their EULA wording, you give them your money anyway, you create your mod, Bioware does nothing to stop you before or after the fact. But the important part is that they got your money, and the lawyers see that they can attempt to restrict rights at unprecedented levels without any noticable consequences. Eight months down the line, they squash someone's project, and we read many pages of bitching about it in Your Rights Online with a nagging voice in the back of our heads, "Haven't we seen this shit before?"

See why I get depressed about these things?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Sentry21]

Well, I hate to nitpick, but technically, they're not stealing, since they have a right (given them by the EULA) to do whatever they wish.

Personally, I don't see a problem. If I make a mod, and then they take it, put it on CD, and sell it without my permission, then hey, that's fucking cool, dude, because hey, I got fucking published! I'd love that. Talk about bragging rights. All I'd ask is that they let me know beforehand, so I could brag to my friends about it.

I do agree that the EULA should be changed. It's only fair to ask people what you can do with their mods. But calling a right given to them by the EULA 'stealing' is a whole other matter.

An interesting question would be if Bioware followed through with this and got sued. Don't get me wrong, I love the company, but I'd like to see EULAs challenged in court at some point. Bioware's not Microsoft, but it would be good to see them struck down.

--Dan

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

"Then I guess I better shut down this Neverwinter Nights Linux dedicated server that I am playing on right now..."

So you're in the beta? If you're in the beta you're the first person - anywhere - to actually admit it. Or are you full of shit because the game hasn't been released.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[evilquaker]

Personally, I don't see a problem. If I make a mod, and then they take it, put it on CD, and sell it without my permission, then hey, that's fucking cool, dude, because hey, I got fucking published! I'd love that. Talk about bragging rights. All I'd ask is that they let me know beforehand, so I could brag to my friends about it.
I do agree that the EULA should be changed. It's only fair to ask people what you can do with their mods. But calling a right given to them by the EULA 'stealing' is a whole other matter.

The problem is that not only can they take it, put it on CD, and sell it without your permission, but they can also prohibit you from further distributing it! So -- unlike warez and Napster/Gnutella/Morpheus/etc where new copies are made, but the original copies remain -- it really is like stealing your work: they have it and can make money from it, and you no longer have it.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Nutcase]

Derek,

Imagine you play guitar, and went to a guitar store to buy a guitar. After you take it home you notice a sleeve wrapped around the strings with the following notice on it:

By distributing or permitting the distribution of any of your Songs, you hereby grant back to FENDER an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means. FENDER may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Songs publicly available.

Confused, you head back to the store and are told all guitar companies do that. Is that a valid explanation? Does that make it ok? What would make it ok?

disclaimer -I used Fender as the name of a guitar company as an example.. i am not trying to say anything about Fender.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

I played D&D, AD&D ans such for a long time. Even had my chance as dungeon master and I created a quest my firends really liked. I kept it, improved it, made other players try it over time and they all seemed to like it.

This quest (some would call it a campaign) is probably not the quality of a commercial one, but it's definitely polished and balanced and fun for all classes.

Now I should waste (given the EULA, it is a waste) my time creating this quest for NWN and maybe watch bioware making profits out of it?!

I have yet to see Discreet asking for exclusive right to movies made with the aid of their softwares. Or Adobe, Macromedia, hell EVEN MICROSOFT LEAVES YOU SOME CRUMBS.

Sorry but I'm no gamer. I wanted NWN for the toolkit stuff. Now it slipped from the "definitely buying" to "I'll see when it comes out".

I've had two thumbs up for Bioware for a long time, but now, I lowered them and rose only two fingers, guess which ones.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Verne]

and you no longer have it

You could always buy a copy back off the shelf ;)

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Sheetrock]

Thank you for airing our concerns with Infogrames. I'm hoping this turns out for the best; I've been looking forward to the title for a long time, and it does look like it will be every bit worth the wait.

(Neverwinter forum discussion here).

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[_Sprocket_]

Ack. Yea. I was tired and had Blizzard on the brain at the time. s/Blizzard/Bioware :)

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[ArnoldYabenson]

It's more like the owner of a synth software package, distribbed as freeware, offering such limitations. You're unlikely to be able to download a free guitar from Fender, and that does make some difference.

In essence, they are saying, "this is our work, and we are entitled to profit from it. You are licensed to use this for 'play,' and your play may result in additional profits for us, but will not provide profits to you."

Harsh by some standards. But the other option, to play elsewhere, is always available.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

Would Parker pens be so popular if everything you wrote with them became the property of Parker or if Parker could revoke your rights to what you created at any time?

Do you see a ton of other companies out there making the same tools and content that NWN is making and giving them to you for the price of the game itself? This is about the value of a commodity. Pens are... well, if Parker ever tried to tell you that you couldn't sell anything that you wrote with their pens, you'd use someone elses pens. Not like there aren't any people out there giving the pens away for free or anything, without any licensing whatsoever. The reason this IS a viable practice for BioWare is that you aren't going to just switch to someone else to make your latest and greatest mod. There's nobody else out there with a toolset like NWN's let alone the content that come with it. I mean, you COULD claim that the Siege Editor is available, but... well, why don't you try the two and compare them for yourselves. Not to mention, Microsoft probly has some licensing issue with content created with those tools as well.

Are Microsoft bemoaning the poor sales of MS VC++ or are they making a lot of money on a compiler which doesn't place restrictions on compiled code?

Again, compilers are common place. Most universities have it as part of their course plans that you will write your own simple compiler for that matter.

In what way will it hurt Bioware's profits it's there's an active fan community producing, or even selling modules? To use said modules, you need the game and such submarkets keep the market for the original product alive after it's shelflife.

Again, look at id software. People sold addons at $10 a pop or more. id never saw any royalties from those sales. You can not consider the intial purchase of the game the same as a royalty fee for sales of an addon that uses id's code/content. Not only uses but NEEDS id's code/content to be playable. The amount of effor that goes into the average addon is very small compared to the money spent on making low memory usage textures that still look reasonable and are reusable, writing high performance code with as few bugs as possible that runs on the highest number of machines. Writing the intial software and making the intial content investment was a HUGE stake for id. Then other people spent a few weeks of their free time making a mod/addon using id's code, id's tools and id's content. How is that fair?

If I were Bioware, which I am obviously not :), I would not only give people free reign on their modules but grant them a royalty free license to use the textures and models that came with the toolkit, for the sole purpose of writing modules.

You're very right. You're NOT BioWare. You didn't spend all that money developing NWN's code, content or toolset. So you can't really say that if you were, you would give it away for free. This is not about giving something away for free that didn't cost you anything to begin with. When you purchase the game, you are paying for just that, the game. You are not buying a license to make money off of their game with a little extra added effort.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not thinking like a businessman. You're missing the forest for the trees. No, it hardly seems fair that the good folks at id put in so much hard work only to have us module writers, modellers, texture creators, and mappers drift on in and take advantage of them like we did, until you consider that the mods and addons made Doom a better product simply by existing. Kind of like how all those movie studios screwed over the companies making VHS players by recording their movies on VHS cassettes without turning a penny over to the VCR folks.

There's more than one track here; pick the needle up and slide it over to the next groove.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Alsee]

I hate to nitpick...a right (given them by the EULA) to do whatever they wish.

I don't see how what you said is any different than what I said: "The EULA is an outright licence to steal." They are giving themselves the right to commit legalized theft.

Personally, I don't see a problem... that's fucking cool

I'm really getting sick of that attitude. Sorry, but I've been seeing it in other threads here on slasdot. Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean no one else will have a problem with it.

The EULA clause only comes into play when it isn't cool. Think about it. If the EULA clause didn't exist, and they come ask you if they can distribute your mod, you'd say "fucking cool". They lose nothing. Then they go up to someone else who, for whatever reason, objects. The EULA lets them steal it. Not fucking cool.

The fact that they are claiming rights to my creative works is bad enough, but claiming the right to revoke my rights in my own works is simply obnoxious.

-

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

"And we aren't doing it either."

If you aren't going to do it, then remove the clause. It really _is_ that simple. Otherwise keep your spin control to yourself, no one is interested in your feeble attempt to garner public support when you have no authority to answer.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anomie-ous Cow-ard]

First, read your EULAs for Quake 3, Half-Life, StarCraft, etc. (other games that allow you to create content). All of them say the same thing that we are saying. Our EULA is nothing new. They must be written this way to protect both the companies involved and the end users. I am serious. Read the EULAs of those other games.

Not quite. Let's try Unreal Tournament, which is also released by Infogames. The relavent clause:

6. Editor and End-User Variations. If the Software includes a feature that allows you to modify the Software or to construct new variations for use with it (an "Editor"), you may not sell it or repackage it for sale. If you create modifications or enhancements to the Software using the Editor, including the construction of new levels (collectively, the "Variations"), you are subject to the following restrictions: (i) your Variations must only work with the full, registered copy of the Software; (ii) your Variations must not contain modifications to any executable file; (iii) your Variations must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party, or contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties; (iv) by distributing or permitting the distribution of any of your Variations, you hereby grant back to Infogrames an irrevocable royalty-free right to use and distribute them by any means. The prohibitions and restrictions in this Section apply to anyone in possession of the Software or any of your Variations.

(quoted from System/license.int on one of the GOTY CDs, the license.int in my Linux installation doesn't even have this EULA (it may have been removed after installation, or it may not even apply to the Linux version from Loki)).

So it looks like you got the "we get unlimited right to redistribute" from Infogames. But nowhere do i see any clause similar to Infogrames or BIOWARE may at any time and in its sole discretion revoke your right to make your Modules publicly available. From other comments, it appears yuor examples don't have any such clause either.

In summary: nice try, but it really helps to have your facts straight so you don't look completely clueless.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time a new game comes out, someone actually reads the EULA and the spectres of corporate exploitation rears its head. Its just not happening. id, Blizzard, Valve, none of these companies have ripped off their fans. Why? Because its suicide.

I don't believe Bioware will do this, but it's not like it hasn't happened before with a larger company: D!Zone Gold, D!Zone 2, or Duke!Zone

I'm fairly certain that Wizard Works did not ask the authors of those maps and mods to include their work on those CDs (not that they had to).

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Babbster]

Well, I also disagree with Blizzard on the bnetd issue. Yet I will still be willing to buy their games as well. Having stupid lawyers doesn't mean that you don't make good games.

I don't mind sending a message by not buying something but not when that something wouldn't see a major dent in sales even if every person who KNOWS about the problem decided not to buy. Plus, I don't think the clause is enforceable, so I (and everyone else) will just do what the hell I want and screw their EULA. :)

-Aaron

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[tpv]

If they're not going to use it, then they don't need it.

So why put it in there?

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[B9DV8]

If Derek is full of crap, I suggest that you don't look too closely at the Morrowind EULA, a game which has already been released with a similar clause intact.

"If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable, right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit."

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[Danse]

First of all, Morrowind wasn't among his examples. I'm saying he's full of crap because the examples he gave don't contain what he claims they do. I thought I was quite clear about that. Even the Morrowind EULA isn't as harsh as the NWN EULA though. While they are claiming the right to use what you create in any way they see fit, at least they aren't denying you the right to do the same, as the NWN EULA does.

Re:Greetings from BioWare

[AftanGustur]

Another analogy: I bought a gun to protect myself from intruders. Theoretically, I can use that gun to shoot anyone I decide I don't like. But I don't, because the consequences far outweigh the benefits of doing so. Same thing here.

Uhh ? No !

You don't have any right to shoot anyone, but BioWare is reserving itself the right to shoot it's customers (steal from them) if they don't love 'em any more.

A better analogy would be one where the guy who sold you the gun reserves himself some rights if he doesn't like what you are doing with the gun you bought.(Maybe shoot you ?)

OOOhh Scary Liscense...

[josh crawley]

OK. I see nowhere that restricts using... say GPL code in it. Oh wait!!! If they claim your code, just (ahem)kindly remind them that they will have to get permission from EACH AND EVERY developer that wrote the GPL code or have to make the module OPEN SOURCE/GPL.

GPL infestation! Fun for the whole Penguin family :-)

Re:OOOhh Scary Liscense...

[josh crawley]

....Or they rewrite the code to non-GPL. That's why you dont annotate the code that was taken through GPL liscense. You just state that intellectural Property in the basis of code and thoery of thier code/program was used in your program. OUCH.

Re:OOOhh Scary Liscense...

[Anonymous Coward]

OK. I see nowhere that restricts using... say GPL code in it. Oh wait!!! If they claim your code, just (ahem)kindly remind them that they will have to get permission

Nowhere does the EULA claim "exclusive" copyright or right to distribute, so you'd be free to release one GPL. This would not inhibit the right they do claim to release a parallel version. Further, as I read it, although they can restrict the original author, who actually used their tools, from redistributing his module, they can not restrict the people to whom he might have already given it.

One imagines the prinicple motivations behind this are a) to allow them to include your mod on their website/mod compilation CD and b) to prevent people from distributing socially unacceptable mods that might result in legal action against them..

THE question

[Tom]

Now there is only one important question that I'd have expected to see here, and possibly with an answer already:

Does it work in Wine or WineX ?

EULA

[Tom]

This is one of the days where it's great to live in Europe. You see, EULAs are invalid here. In fact, they have been struck down times and again in court.
Now the funny thing is that Bioware is in the US. Which means I'm not bound by their EULA, but if I slap one on my module, they're bound by that. <grin>

Protect from what?

[Yogurt]

What I don't understand is how the right to royalty-free distribution of modules protects Bioware and the end users. Can you give an example of where this provision would come in handy?

I understand that you may need to stop people from making Lord of the Rings modules and such, but there's a separate provision in the EULA for that.

Also, Sanuj's main concern on the BioWare thread doesn't seem to get addressed. I don't really care if Bioware distributes my module, but I would care if they used one of my characters in a spin-off novel. This isn't what the EULA is meant to allow, I gather.

Yogurt

Re:Protect from what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple.. Guess whose textures you'll be using to make the walls of your module? Whose room layouts, etc .. Whose code to connect it all? It's all Biowares. While *you* made the creative part of the story, it is still built entirely with Biowares tools and artwork. id-software ran into problems when someone made a module and sold it off .. Guess what? The textures and everything were all the ones shipped with the game. In effect, they pirated id-softwares artwork for their own module. They expect people to use *everything* from scratch, and while this MIGHT be possible (I didnt write NWN and I havent used their toolset), it would be too hard to enforce and review each module "for sale" and it would get out of hand like the Doom expansions we all saw.. 90% of those were all illegal using id-softwares artwork, music, and monsters .. id-software didn't see a penny from those people reselling their mindshare.

Re:Protect from what?

[Anonymous Coward]

id realizes a profit when people buy their game to parse the Doom expansions. I'd argue that they were put on the map because of all those Doom expansions -- including the ones that creators charged for. My compiler didn't come with a provision that I have to tithe the creator if I distribute a program compiled with it and charge for the program, and I believe that sort of behavior is antithetical to the way business involving computers has evolved. Many of the people writing the rules today wouldn't be where they are if the generation before had been just as strict about what we could or couldn't do with the software, something that would be good to consider even if it flies in the face of current practice.

Re:Protect from what?

[Zathrus]

That's like claiming that the program you just compiled should belong to the compiler maker, the standards committee, and whoever wrote the editor. After all, all you did was string words together and throw in some creative parts (e.g. - the logic).

Or maybe all books should belong to the font maker and the word processor vendor. Again, all you provided was the "creative part".

Perhaps music should belong to the instrument makers and other electronics companies involved. Once more, just using someone else's tools. The creative part is obviously irrelevant.

Sorry, things are provided for an intended use. When they are used for that intended use then you should retain intellectual property -- because that is all you're providing in the first place. The IP laws are written with this concept clearly in mind. I'm sorry that you, along with numerous companies (Activision amongst them) have completely missed out on this.

Oh, and finally, yes Id did see many, many pennys from those people "reselling their mindshare". They had to buy Doom afterall.

Re:Protect from what?

[drinkypoo]

[...]like the Doom expansions we all saw.. 90% of those were all illegal using id-softwares artwork, music, and monsters .. id-software didn't see a penny from those people reselling their mindshare.

If you are simply reusing textures in the doom WAD files, which are either A> present in the demo version or B> you require the final version, you are not doing anything wrong. The people have purchased the game, and they have the right to use those textures.

The problem comes when you distribute textures to people who have not paid for them.

Re:Protect from what?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG. I can't believe how short sited you are.

Perhaps music should belong to the instrument makers and other electronics companies involved. Once more, just using someone else's tools. The creative part is obviously irrelevant.

Well, let's see. This toolset costs you how much? Oh, it's free, it comes with the game. (though, you must agree that you're buying the game, not the toolset, which... most people would agree, since they'll never touch the toolset) Now, let's talk about music. You have to buy the instruments, the samples/patches/whatever if you're going electronic. Granted you can do quite a bit with free software these days, but that's called competition. Music software eventually became so common place that people that were interested in it as a hobby knew it was going to make very little money and would rather just have people enjoy it. Do you know of any tools like NWN's tools and content that are similar in quality? Didn't think so.

Or maybe all books should belong to the font maker and the word processor vendor. Again, all you provided was the "creative part".

Did you know that you DO have to pay licensing fees for particular fonts used in publishing books? That one's not really a problem with being short sited, you just didn't do any research on that one. I work for a print company, so I know about this kind of thing. Some fonts are indeed free, but common ones used for print are not. The fonts themselves are IP. Not to mention, if you start describing a world that looks a bit too similar to someone elses world they describe in their book, you can easily get into copyright infringement there as well. With NWN's tools, you're using their textures and their base objects/classes/models. Hell, the playsystem itself is patented. You can't possibly produce your own module for sale without licensing the whole system because of the rule system in place, it's owned by Wizard's under the Dungeons and Dragons name.

That's like claiming that the program you just compiled should belong to the compiler maker, the standards committee, and whoever wrote the editor. After all, all you did was string words together and throw in some creative parts (e.g. - the logic).

Again, gone are the days when this was true, but at one point in time this WAS true. You had to pay dearly to be able to use a company's compiler to compile your own code and be able to sell it. Compilers for most languages have been around so long and so many people have made them that their value is pretty much a non-issue these days. You can get free/OSS compilers now. Name any system you can get for free, that is open source, that has the same abilities and quality of content as the NWN toolset. I dare you. You can't because there aren't any. All the current systems have very strict licensing agreements because of this. They're still a sought after commodity.

Sorry, things are provided for an intended use. When they are used for that intended use then you should retain intellectual property -- because that is all you're providing in the first place. The IP laws are written with this concept clearly in mind. I'm sorry that you, along with numerous companies (Activision amongst them) have completely missed out on this.

Did you just completely miss the bus? The purpose for this agreement is to prevent people from doing exactly what happened with Doom. People sold their addons in the store for $10 a piece and id never saw a dime from their sales (I don't see how you can call the one time purchase of the game itself a fair royalty for all the graphics, sounds, models and concepts that are used in this addon that said company is selling). All you were really buying was the addon code which was completely seperate from id's code, but required id's code/content to actually be playable. Basically just remixing id's content and code into a different storyline or even a different game concept, but still using id's content/code as the basis, which, I don't know how else to explain this, id should be paid for. To bring this to an end: Why would BioWare dump tons of money into this toolset and content archive only to give it away for free for other people to make money from? What you are saying really is that a person should be able to take existing content that they've paid for in the same way, like a movie for example. Cut it up. Rearrange it. Sell it as their own movie. I mean hey, you bought the movie right? You made your own story out of it. The original story line doesn't even exist any more. All of that content, the backgrounds, the filming techniques, the special effects.... I paid for all that right? Heh. Can't believe some of the ignorant people out there.

Re:Protect from what?

[Anonymous Coward]

This would be valid, if the end user didn't have to buy the original content to begin with. As it stands, the user has paid for the content, textures, etc and is now simply obtaining a modification to add a bit of life to the game. Numerous companies have sold level packs for their games which required the original game. They may end up using the same exact textures that previously existed - they may not even change the code at all. But it's still considered a new work, even though it's built with the original components.

Doom as a game sold well partially due to the technology and gameplay, but also because people had the freedom to take it and change it into an entirely different experience. Doom was probably the best return on gaming dollar investment that I've spent in many years exactly for this reason. Most current games have mods, but I have yet to see another game with the sheer variety of modifications and level of creativity which went into them. The shelf life of the average game just doesn't justify it, and without a wide base of new content they won't even be a speck on the timeline of gaming history.

Hopefully another company/coder group will come out with a cutting edge game with the same freedom to modify as doom. Then I'll wager that we'll see the next real revolution in PC gaming. Who knows... It might even create the next id Software.

Re:Protect from what?

[Danse]

(though, you must agree that you're buying the game, not the toolset, which... most people would agree, since they'll never touch the toolset)

I would most certainly not agree with this assessment. If it comes in the box, then that's what I'm buying. Some of us were planning to buy this game exclusively for the toolkit so that we could make our own stories playable for others. The game is almost just a secondary thing. Regardless though, when you buy the game, you are paying for whatever comes with it as well.

The purpose for this agreement is to prevent people from doing exactly what happened with Doom. People sold their addons in the store for $10 a piece and id never saw a dime from their sales

That is not the purpose at all unless their lawyers are a bunch of morons. There's no reason that they need to give themselves the rights to distribute your creations. There's no reason they need to ban you from distributing your own creations free of charge. They could simply do what Blizzard did and ban people from selling mods or custom levels created with their editing tools. Since they didn't do that, it's obvious that they are intending to do much more than simply prevent people from selling these mods and levels.

Kylix?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't Borland Kylix for Linux take Borland C++ Builder and Borland Delphi source and compile it into Linux binaries? I might be mistaken...

Re:Kylix?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't Borland Kylix for Linux take Borland C++ Builder and Borland Delphi source and compile it into Linux binaries?

Kylix is essentially Delphi for Linux. There is no C++ Builder for Linux.

Who's the foolio?

[elzahir]

User DO NOT have to download a module in order to play it, anymore than you need to run perl and mysql to read slashdot. All you need is a browser, which requests an action from the server... the server sends the client browser only what it need to display the specific request, not the entirety of slashcode.

The same with NWN. The client makes specific requests of the server and the server sends down just the information required, telling the client to display certain game objects (shipped with the client) doing certain things. The only way for Bioware to see your module is to login to your server and play it. They wouldn't ever see the code you wrote unless you released it.

What about EVIL takeovers?

[CoreyGH]

I don't think anyone here is worried that Bioware is out to swindle us. But that doesn't mean we should let this stuff slip by. What happens when (hypothetically, but possible) some less morally sound company buys your company tomorrow?

And just because other people do it doesn't make it right. ;)

Re:Mirror? - no problem

[winne too]

the article actually linked to a forum thread containing a list of mirrors.

Solution: write an Open Source toolset

[Telcontar]

Since the toolset is Windows only, this seems to be the obvious way to go. Reverse engineer the file format(s), write an editor, use that editor to create the mods.
I am sure this is eventually going to happen anyway, bad EULA or not.

Re:Solution: write an Open Source toolset

[Alsee]

Or better yet:
Do NOT agree to the EULA
Reverse engineer the file format.
Only create whatever minimal tools you require.
Create a mod by hand.
Thoughly document the process.
Release the mod, do not release any tools you made.
Give no hint that you didn't use their toolkit.

Then proceed to sue BioWare to hell and back when they steal your mod.

-

Re:Solution: write an Open Source toolset

[Dr. Spork]

Yeah, I'd love to see you create all the textures and animations from scratch. But if you do, you really do deserve to sell whatever you produced.

Thoughts on Derek's comments

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I completely understand people being negative about an EULA like this, given the abuse we've seen by other major companies in the past. OTOH, witness the following (posted by Derek French of Bioware to the forum thread):

Do you really think that we would perform public suicide by stealing from you, our fans? No, we are not going to steal from you or claim your modules are were created by us. We have to protect ourselves.

So back on the first hand again, you gotta admit, he's got a point. Bad PR is more damaging than the fighting the best lawyers in the world, any way.

But back on the other hand, the thing I think is bizarre is that they're sticking by their position, even in the fact of reasoned criticism from informed but non-hostile observers. Their licence agreement does appear to be considerably more strongly worded than the cited previous EULAs for other games, after all, and whatever Derek says and however faithfully, they do still seem to have the legal right to take your stuff, sell it without credit, and forbid you from distributing it on the whim of a management weenie.

If Bioware genuinely believe the claims Derek makes above, there would be no harm in rewriting the EULA slightly to clarify the position. Then they'd be raved about on one of the most popular boards on the 'net, instead of having their motives questioned. Good PR beats the lawyers any day, too. :-)

Re:Thoughts on Derek's comments

[1%warren]

If Bioware genuinely believe the claims Derek makes above, there would be no harm in rewriting the EULA slightly to clarify the position. Then they'd be raved about on one of the most popular boards on the 'net, instead of having their motives questioned. Good PR beats the lawyers any day, too.

I expect the EULA as it stands is a "kite". Derek or someone else is going to go back to management & say we won't put up with it.

Re:Thoughts on Derek's comments

[Babbster]

I think you've hit on the best point so far. All Bioware should really need in their EULA is a notation that they, and only they, reserve the right to sell NWN modules for the profit. After all, their position on using copyrighted, obscene, etc. content in modules is clarified in another section, so a more simple (but equally blunt) comment about making a profit on modules is really all they need.

Once they have a comment as above, then they can simply offer mod authors (of whom there will probably be many) a tiny fraction of the profit if and when they do decide to distribute a mod for profit. IIRC, this is what Sierra/Valve did for Counterstrike, and they STILL made a ton of money even though Counterstrike was, and is, still available in its entirety for free on the web.

-Aaron

Re:Thoughts on Derek's comments

[fwr]

That would be a "trial baloon" for the US-centric audiance...

Pen&Paper and Neverwinter

[GeekDork]

Some friends and me play good ol' pen'n'paper as often as we get to, but it's not easy to meet (working times, studying, "geographic challenges"). I'm seriously thinking about integrating Neverwinter into that schedule, at least if creation times for adventure settings keep acceptable.

And as for that EULA stuff, I don't think it's really valid or enforceable here (Germany) plus I'm thinking of a chicken-out license to stick to my modules that combines the convenience of private use and a postcard license.

Chicken-out license

This module is in no way meant for distribution. If you found it that means you either stumbled across a resource that I had to use in order to transfer the module for my own private use or someone else already ripped it from one such resource and made it available (since that person wasn't authorized to do so in the first place, this doesn't count as distribution by the maker!). However, since you're already at it, feel free to ignore the non-public nature of this module and let me know what you think about it.

EULA - This behavior must not continue!

[1%warren]

Feel the burning stare of my hamster and change your ways! - Minsc.

Chill ...

[Mr_Silver]

As much as I hate to point it out, if you really don't like the EULA for any product, just don't buy, download and use it.

So this EULA says that anything you create is basically theirs? Yes, it sucks. But that's the conditions and you have two choices. Either you agree to it, or you don't.

It's not exactly a tough decision. However cool the thing is, you do have the option to not agree to the licence and therefore not use it.

Of course, it may mean you can't create your own Neverwinter Night scenarios, but that is what comes of not agreeing to their terms and conditions.

Put it another way. You can come into my house if you take your shoes off. That's the conditions, you either do it, or you don't and go elsewhere. And if you miss my party (and the copious amounts of beer that was there) because you didn't want to take your shoes off, then that is your decision and can't go blaming me for not letting you abide by my rules (however silly or pointless you felt they were).

I fail to see the issue here. Yes, the licence does suck. But they're not a monopoly, they're not forcing you to agree to the EULA and you certainly can continue to happly live in the world without agreeing to it.

Re:Chill ...

[Anonymous Coward]

---
So this EULA says that anything you create is basically theirs? Yes, it sucks. But that's the conditions and you have two choices. Either you agree to it, or you don't.
---

I hate it when people tell me what choices I have. I don't have "two choices". I have as many choices as I can figure out. At the moment, I see the following choices that depend on many factors:
1) Buy the game and agree to the EULA, and make good quality content if I feel so inclined and release it.
2) Buy the game and agree to the EULA, and make good quality content if I feel so inclined but keep it to myself and my friends.
3) Buy the game and don't make any content for it, just use other people's contents (assuming they haven't all gone for this option...)
4) Don't buy the game because I don't find it worth my money, and don't play NWN.
5) Don't buy the game because although I find it worth my money, as a punishment for Bioware for their shitty EULA that I disagree with ideologically, and don't play NWN.
6) Either of the above two, but do play NWN by getting some sort of warezed version. Hah, that's gotta hurt.
7) Get a warezed version and actively distribute to people who might have bought the game in order to hurt Bioware as much as I can as punishment for the EULA.

---

And these are only my BATNA's --- best alternatives to negotiated agreemend --- where the negotiated agreement is a change in the EULA.

In my opinion, given that
1) I don't have to buy NWN to go about my life - not even to get to play it if I want to
and
2) Bioware *have* to sell NWN to ppl to survive
My position is about a zillion times stronger than Bioware's in this discussion. So my feeling is that Bioware upper management should grab this Derek guy by the ear and drag him out of view and start seriously thinking about whether they want to sell this game to me or not. I can guarantee you that the entire range of options above (and many more that I haven't thought of yet) will be seen, regardless of whether or not they change the EULA. However, their changing of the EULA - and the public relations actions accompanying that - will determine what the proportions of these behaviours will be.

Now all of you who tell people what their options are, please stop. Let people decide what they want to do. And if you're going to start explaining to them what their choices are, explain them in an open way, that creates more possibilities. Sure, the 8 choices above could be abbreviated to "either you agree to the EULA or you don't" but that's a pretty damn stupid way to explain it.

- An open-minded student

Re:Chill ...

[jgerman]

The issue is that it is another attempt by a corporation to take away rights that they can't (shouldn't) be allowed to take. Original content created by me is MINE, regardless of the tools I use to create it, or how I view it. We've been through this all before, when Nintendo (unsuccessfully) tried to sue a company for making games that worked with their system. Regardless of the EULA I CAN sell my modules if I like, just as I can sell a document I made with Word (not that I'd use word ;)) or a JPG I made with The Gimp.

This is equivalent to Ford saying that because I used Ford tools to machine after market engine parts for my Mustang that they can take ownership of those parts (or at least the design) at any time, and that I can not sell those parts to others.

I'm fine with the concept of selling software, I may believe in OSS but not exclusively, and as a coder I won't begrudge other coders the oppurtunity to make a living selling their software. What I am not ok with is Bioware turning corporate thug and trying to tell me what I can or cannot do with MY creations. Furthermore, I believe that despite Derek's statements to the contrary I CAN use copyrighted characters and settings provided that I don't make a profit from them, I'm reasonably certain this falls under fair use hence fan fiction.

Regardless of whether I agree with the license included, I don't have to live without the product. Bioware is (will be) selling a tool, once that tool is in my posession I can do with it what I like, when I like. I've agreed to the only license term that should be legal, I've paid some monetary price for the use of this tool, I will not copy it and circumvent Bioware's ability to make a living selling this tool, by distributing the copys, but that is the ONLY moral obligation I feel I owe once the product is purchased.

All I can say is that I wish I had the cash to fight them on this. It would be a worthy cause to start a company who's whole purpose is to expose the shit that software developers are trying to pull. I'd love to create a module, sell it for a penny and fight Bioware in court over my right to do so.

Re:Chill ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't do any of that unless you don't use any IP owned by them - in other words you have to do a 100% from-scratch mod... Then you could probably take advantage of the cases allowing third party add-on's. But if you use their toolset (and their textures, etc.), then your end product contains their IP, and you are subject to their EULA, etc.

Re:Chill ...

[jgerman]

I think you are missing the point. Their EULA is invalid. They cannot legally make those claims, regardless of whether or not they put it into a EULA.

Whinging about licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

This is more or less the same as if a company producing a compiler wrote into the EULA that by distributing any program compiled with that compiler, the company would permanently get the rights to do whatever they wanted with that program, including reselling it for profit and then forbidding you to publish it yourself.

You know, you also have the option of "not using it" and "not developing anything to do with it". Nobody's holding a gun to your head. There are lots of half-life mods out and nobody seems to mind.

I think it's awfully nice of Bioware to give you this for free with the only stipulation that if you make nice stuff, they get to have it (you know, like THE GPL). After all, they could charge you $500 a seat for it. Then you'd just have to download it from Gnu-tella instead, since information wants to be free.

Lame Win32 installer

[Gothmolly]

It has to install to C:\

WTF is this, why do I have to install games into my OS installation? That's what D: and /home are for!

Looks like they're shooting for the LCD here...

Re:Lame Win32 installer

[Doppleganger]

Have to install to C:\? I installed the toolkit just fine on my F:\ drive, and ran it for several hours without a hitch. Don't know what the heck you're talking about...

Full Forum Thread

[SEWilco]

It certainly was nice to provice a link to a full discussion of the topic, so there won't be 150 comments to it on Slashdot.

Mmm... generalizations.

[solios]

"Geeks love gaming".

Mmm. Yeah. I think I have a copy of Starcraft somewhere, with about six inches of dust on it. Might've gotten lost in a move. Could care less, really.

I run seven systems on my home LAN. Games are installed on none of them. Might be the fact I'm a Mac user. Might also be the fact that I have better things to spend my money on that hardware upgrades for systems that run photoshop just fine but blow chunks and repeatedly slam themselves against the wall trying to run Unreal Tournament above 5 fps.

I see the toolbox isn't available for MacOS/X. Somehow, this doesn't bother me. Oh yeah, it's because I haven't had enough free time for games in three years. :P

Re:Mmm... generalizations.

[Anonymous Coward]

so shut up and go away then

Re:Mmm... generalizations.

[bafu]

I see the toolbox isn't available for MacOS/X. Somehow, this doesn't bother me. Oh yeah, it's because I haven't had enough free time for games in three years. :P

Maybe it's because you spend too much time following /. threads about things you have no interest in? ;-)

Anyway, I kind of agree with you since no game seems to really provide the satisfaction I hope it will, but I am still in the "hope springs eternal" stage with NWN. As an added plus, the much-and-oft-delayed release schedule has allowed me to live in this hopeful state far longer than previous game releases ever did!

Re:Mmm... generalizations.

[Anonymous Coward]

How about this:

Many geeks love gaming...

...but far more geeks love to be assholes.

"regardless of your feelings" ??

[solios]

(this will, of course, get buried as OT....)
What seperates /. from real journalism is the blatant bias on a LOT of subjects... which, upon coursory glance over the front page, is obviously flatly conflicted and flat out hypocritical. Examples:

1. Blizzard is evil. (Bnetd)- refer to continual mithering about bnetd case every time any form of Blizzard news makes the FP.
2. Warcraft III is gonna be cool!
3. MPAA / DRM / Entertainment Industry is Evil!
4. Matrix Trailer! Star Wars!
5. Windows is EVIL!- refer to any time any member of microsoft does anything that's not approved by the Moral Majority, which is immediatly posted to the FP.
6. Neverwinter Nights Toolset!!! Oooo! (NO mention that it's WINDOWS ONLY *ANYWHERE* in the article blurb. Had to read comments.)

Plain and simple, /. is a rabble-rouser. Reporting on the latest and greatest rocks if you can maintain that "objectivity" thing, which is something the staff doesn't bother with. Probably because it fuels lots of posts like the ones in this sub-thread, which add to the total story replies, which imply page-views, which is advertising $$. So.

Re:"regardless of your feelings" ??

[SnapShot]

Or maybe you are too simplistic.

I like games, therefor solios believes I must love everything a specific game company's lawyers do. I believe that the DMCA is a good example of corporations buying legislation, therefor solios believes I must hate all movies and music that are released. I believe a certain OS company illegally leverages its monopoly to crush competition, therefore solios believes that I shouldn't support an unrelated game company that may actually be earning a living making games for that OS.

When you are older, you might realize that the world doesn't all fall into simplistic notions of Good versus Evil. What you call hypocrisy, I call reality.

From the boards...

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Derek posted to the Bioware NWN board and basically said "I'll be blunt; the EULA is final." The next post pointed out that the titanic would never sink, and all police officers and politicians have our best interests at heart. :-)

Move along, Sheetrock

[extra88]

"We don't take kindly to your kind here, acting all courteous and sensible and all. Moderators, your mod points assigned to Sheetrock will be returned to you but we've got your names and we'll be keeping our eyes on you."

EULA Prioritie [Was: Good thing its not MS]

[Sharper]

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you are), by accepting their EULA (and then fullfilling the conditions, ie: distributing your work), you've given them the right over ownership essentially.. they don't have to accept your EULA to use it as they've already got that right. This is how contract law works (in North America anyway).

Sharper

Legally enforcable contract without consideration?

[SatoriMan]

IANAL, but I did have a lawyer explain contract law to me when I first got into business.

He said that in order for a contract to be legally enforcable, there where certain things that had to be true of it. One of them was "consideration". Something had to be exchanged by both parties. If I give you my car, you really don't have a legal right to it. If I sell you my car for one dollar, then you can have legal ownership of it (assuming all other contract conditions are met).

I'd like to see a lawyer's take on the likelihood that this clause would stand up in court.

Poor taste? Please...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like "war against terrorism" is a polite way of saying "kills 30 thousand afghan people who don't even have a clue why they're being bombed" or "gives the israelis free weapons so they can drive people out of their own land". Or, for example, "achieved a quick end to the war" is a polite way of saying "killed 500.000 civilians with two atom bombs".

At least the nazis didn't pretend to be nice guys.

Re:Poor taste? Please...

[Anonymous Coward]

!!!

Re:Poor taste? Please...

[VisMono]

Get your facts straight pal. I'd love to see proof of your 30 thousand killed figure (Let me guess, trusted Taliban sources?) Of course you don't have it because it didn't happen. The Israelis, while not saints, have the right to not face extermination, AGAIN, this time at the hands of medieval, backward Arab hordes. And they ARE backward and stuck in their own version of the dark ages. 500,000 civilians with two atom bombs was horrific but the MILLIONS forecasted to die in Operation Olympic would have been worse. Fascinating that you can advocate murder so effortlessly and yet compare the US to Nazis. If the US and Israel are the worst examples of humanity you can find, you haven't even begun to see the real world. How about those banner Islamic countries where they bury women up to their necks and then stone them to death for being raped? Ahh yes, the pinnacle of civilization that is the Arab world.

About the Mac (or Linux) version

[frankie]

what is the Mac versions status?

The status now is the same as it was two years ago.

The good news is that NWN will ship with Windows, OSX, and Linux86 installers for Players and DMs on the same CD. The bad news is that the world creation tools are Windows only.

See also: Bioware's NWN FAQ:

4.01 I've heard that the Aurora Neverwinter Toolset will be Windows only. What's the deal?

Our initial goal was to create a cross platform toolset for the gaming community. However, we have encountered difficulty in obtaining a viable cross platform solution to assist us in porting the Aurora Neverwinter Toolset. While we would not like to rule out the possibility of a port to the various operating systems at some point, this won't be happening for the initial release.

The real answer is that they created the Toolset in the first place using a Windows-only system, rather than the cross-platform environment they used to write the actual game. They've never explained why.

Re:About the Mac (or Linux) version

[Anonymous Coward]

"The real answer is that they created the Toolset in the first place using a Windows-only system, rather than the cross-platform environment they used to write the actual game. They've never explained why."

Easy because Windows had the best cost preformance ratio as a content creation and debugging environment.

Simple workaround for EULA problems

[Pyrosophy]

IANAL, but...

The EULA won't let you or Bioware distribute modules with copyrighted portions so that they can be safe. Yet they get rights to everything you create. They can't have rights to something that someone else with a copyright creates. So all you need to do is copyright some characters, objects, components, etc (anything which isn't dependent upon the toolset) and then they can't take credit for it, because of legal concerns. Copyrighting one character per area should be fine...

this was noted (and apparently corrected)

[neye_eve]

Read the bug-reports forums they made for the beta toolkit, and you'll see that this was reported by someone else, and that one of the bioware guys said something like "acknowledged and corrected".

that's what the bugs forums are for. Or maybe the bioware guys will wade through /. comments to find bug reports... ;-)

neye

QT Dev?

[TibbonZero]

If they dev'd it in QT or something couldn't you run it on OsX anyway? You can boot into XFree86 can't you? It should work fine, i think that the mac and the linux toolkits would happen at the same time?

Re:QT Dev?

[Anonymous Coward]

i think that the mac and the linux toolkits would happen at the same time

This is quite correct. Bioware will release Mac and Linux tools at the same time: NEVER.

Create your own Aurora toolset ...

[Dhrakar]

Actually, I think that the real real answer is to just fully publish the file formats and specifications and let us create our own toolkits. I mean, c'mon, there are many creative folks in both the OSX and Linux camps who would love to tackle writing a toolset for editing NWN modules. Once we know the module format, this becomes much easier. Im fact, I sucpect that reverse-engineered toolsets (for linux at least) will start popping up soon after the game is released.

Re:Create your own Aurora toolset ...

[tpv]

<conspiracy>
Ah, but then they wouldn't be able to force you to accept a EULA, and they wouldn't be able to claim whatever it is they want to claim in the EULA.
</conspiracy>

Re:Create your own Aurora toolset ...

[Anonymous Coward]

real answer is to just fully publish the file formats and specifications and let us create our own toolkits.

Except that Bioware wants complete control over NWN content creation, which means support for 3rd parties will NEVER happen.

Re:Legally enforcable contract without considerati

[Alsee]

Legally enforcable contract without consideration?

You *are* recieving consideration, you just didn't notice :)

They are letting you use the toolkit.

Note: Do not interpret this clarifacation as support for Bioware. I hope some judge gets to look at this piece of crap and uses it as an excuse to rule all EULA's void.

-

Ownership of Module != Ownership of Underlying IP

[gkoo]

There's a little bit of overreaction going on here. From the clear language of the EULA, IG/BW is only laying claim to the module itself.

The way I interpret it, the creator retains rights to the underlying story, characters, plot, etc. and grants IG/BW an exclusive right to one particular embodiment of that work, that being the Module created with the Aurora Toolset. The creator is free to create other derivative works, including modules for other game engines.

Personally, I think IG/BW is creating a lot of trouble for itself doing this, because if I were an owner of a copyright that has been infringed by an overeager NWN user, I would go after IG/BW because they have granted themselves the power to stop the distribution of the infringing Module, and thus shift the costs of enforcement onto them.

Herego, their lawyers end up billing a lot of hours. Maybe that's what they wanted... :P

If the GPL doesn't bother you, why does this?

[Dr. Spork]

The way I read the EULA, it's not like Bioware puts any restrictions on your distribution of your creations. You can set up an FTP, etc. What they do say is that if you make something with the toolkit, they have a right to redistribute it.

Compare this to the case where you splice a whole bunch of GPL code modules together (using your immagination/creativity) and the license declares that others have a right to use your code, even to sell it.

Because the toolkit is so high-level, you basically cannot use it to create content without Bioware IP inside. That content "infects" your creation the way GPL code does, and that puts restrictions on what you can do with the code. The only restriction Bioware insists on is that you give them the rights to use what you make. So you can't, as you said, try to sell off your creations for money to Bioware, because they are, by the license, entitled to your code already--so they can get it for free. Again, this would be the same if you put together a software project full of GPL code. You couldn't say "I'll hide the code until you pay me."

Anyway, I think the GPL is a fair license, and so by extension, I think Bioware's conditions are reasonable too. Basically, they want all the code to be "free"--meaning they want it to be available. I'm sure that down the road, they might try to print and sell a "distribution" CD of the best fan modules that were created. If you don't want to buy it from them, I'm sure you can just get in touch with the authors and download their modules for free. Or, I'm sure there will be many web sites online that keep an inventory of freely-released fan modules. Some of them might even try to make their own "distribution" on CD and sell it. I see nothing in the Bioware license that prevents this. In fact, I see the license encourages wide redistribution of the modules, which is cool, and also in Bioware's interest.

So where exactly is the problem with the license? I honestly don't get what you're worried about.

Re:I'm still looking forward to creating modules..

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I know there was no EULA with it,
but if memory served cprrectly 3d realms got in trouble for trying to do exactly what this allows the makers to do.

maybe I am an idiot, (and I'm definatly lazy for not googling) but I really remember there being some conterversy of 3d realms selling user maps.

Ignorant moderator.

[1%warren]

In the unlikely event of any other moderators reading this, my comment *is* ontopic, & meant to be funny. Sigh. Minsc is a character from another Bioware RPG. I hope Mr offtopic gets LART'ed in metamod.

EULA Protection and Linux Dedicated Server

[Anonymous Coward]

Protecting the companies and the end users...
Could you please elaborate on how such wording protects anybody?

All that it protects is the companies right to take other peoples work and sell it. See the D-Zone titles (Similiar names. Basically thousands of levels for Duke Nukem and Doom that were taken from the creators and sold on the shelves)

If you could elaborate a bit, it would be much appreciated.

As to the Linux Dedicated Server...
Its nice to hear that you are still planning on releasing a dedicated server for us linux users.

However, every inquiry about a Linux or Mac client in recent history has been pointedly ignored by Bioware. (and no, I do not count being referred to the faq by a forum moderator as confirmation)

I do not mean to sound bitter or mean, but if I do not get a Linux Client out of the box as stated on Biowares F.A.Q., then I am returning the game for a refund.

It is obvious that you (read Bioware) would like to release Neverwinter Nights for windows, linux, and mac concurrently, but it would be nice to see confirmation from you.

I could care less if I get a linux server if I do not also get a linux client. Why the hell would I want to serve a game for windows users if I can not play it myself?

Whats that? All linux users have a windows box to play on? Not me. I deleted it and am not going back to it even if by some miracle this country (the u.s.) outlaws linux in its quest to destroy fair use.

Everyone I know notes that all available marketing data on linux sales shows no interest.
What it really shows are the following:
...Linux users have both operating systems.
...Linux users like to get the game when it comes out. (imagine that)
...Linux users dont feel that they should have to buy a title 2 times just to _try_ to show that there is demand for linux. (many actually _do_ buy both...but that is +1 for windows and +1 for linux).

Here is a marketing test to show how bad the current data is:
Release your title for windows.
Wait 3 months for sales to die down then re-release it for windows (no new features, art, etc.).
Note the difference in sales...Does this mean there is no demand for a windows version? Or that most people who wanted it have already purchased it?

As a _consumer_, I will:
-No longer support M$ or their upgrade train.
-No longer support companies that will not make their product for my os of choice (linux).
-No longer support bean counters that refuse to allow a linux client when (purportedly) the code is already there
-No longer support the music industry and their inane demand to legislate their monopoly. Some people need to learn about supply and demand...
-No longer support the mp3 format. Long live Ogg Vorbis.

Unfortunately, the list above has been growing a lot in the last year and looks to get longer soon.

Oh well, gotta stand for something sooner than later...else there will be no later...

-Anonymous Coward...

they actually corrected it

[Kraft]

Shock! Look at the story now and you'll see it now reads "The file itself is 241mb".

Re:they actually corrected it

[ender81b]

Paint my ass pink and call me sally... I'll be dammed.