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RIP: Stephen Jay Gould

gdyas writes: " Reuters reports that famed paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould has died today at age 60 of cancer. Famous for his many essays on natural history, modifications to Darwin's theories, and as the winner of the American Book Award for "The Mismeasure of Man", a history of intelligence testing, Gould was and remains a profound influence on biology." CNN also has a piece on him.

269 comments

  1. the mismeasure of man by r00tarded · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the most important book i read in college. showed me how to use necessary subjectivity to discredit almost any opinion. invaluable.

    1. Re:the mismeasure of man by junkgrep · · Score: 1

      yeah yeah: as usual, a simplistic rhetorical jab instead of substantive criticism.

    2. Re:the mismeasure of man by Uart · · Score: 1

      I hated that book with a passion.

      --

      Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
    3. Re:the mismeasure of man by rbook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wherever he is now, I wonder if he still believes in evolution.... ;-)

    4. Re:the mismeasure of man by morbid · · Score: 0

      Ha ha. Side-splittingly funny.
      Since he has ceased to be, how can he believe anything?

      --
      I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
  2. A great man by faeryman · · Score: 1

    "The Mismeasure of Man" is an excellent book. Gould was a great author. I recommend you find a copy to read - it's very insightful.

    I think it's sad to see such a writer pass.

    --


    ,
    faeryman
    1. Re:A great man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being an open minded intellect, you guys might want to check out: "The Measure of

    2. Re:A great man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oops, prematurely clicked on Submit!
      Meant to say:
      Being an open minded intellects such as you /. readers. You guys might wanna check out: "The Measure of A Man" by Gene Getz.
      Amazon link

      Cheers!
      PS: What's up with the /. registration, i can't register!, it keep bouncing me to the login screen and complains that the nickname is not in the database... duh!

  3. Wow by MxTxL · · Score: 1

    He was REALLY big in the field. His punctuated equilibrium theories are taught in a LOT of college level biology classes. His views on evolution were and are, quite insightful. Hopefully his ideas stand up to the darwinian process of scientific thought.

    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hopefully his ideas stand up to the darwinian process of scientific thought.

      This is not what science is about, that theories stay around because we like the sound of them and they make us feel good. That's religion.

    2. Re:Wow by junkgrep · · Score: 2, Informative

      Scientific thought is NOT supposed to be darwinian. Evolution doesn't promise "right" or "best" choices, or even a consistent direction. The scientific method, on the contrary, is extremely competitive, but the standards are meant to stay the same: good scholarship taking on all challengers consistently and in detail. Darwinian evolution is blind: it has no intentions, no direction. Science DOES have a hopefuly intention: more and more complete and objective knowledge of the world around us.

    3. Re:Wow by caca_phony · · Score: 1
      This is not what science is about, that theories stay around because we like the sound of them and they make us feel good. That's religion.

      If you mean to equate scientific thought and religion, I would have to disagree wholeheartedly, but if you are saying that to hope a theory stands up to time is not scientific thought, you are right. I must point out that a person should be allowed to express nonscientific thoughts, though.

      --
      ...and this lie crawls out of its mouth: 'I, the state, am the people.'
  4. And most importantly he was on the Simpsons by Dynedain · · Score: 5, Funny

    He starred in the episode where a fossilized angel skeleton is found.

    --
    I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    1. Re:And most importantly he was on the Simpsons by reschly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That episode was on tonight, ironically enough (on the syndicated version, in my area, atleast)

      --


      I believe that the existence of women is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy
    2. Re:And most importantly he was on the Simpsons by the_Upsetter · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Why was this modded to +5 funny?

      Were the moderators just remembering how funny the episode was...? This kind of makes no sense

      Not much funny in the actual post

    3. Re:And most importantly he was on the Simpsons by the_Upsetter · · Score: 1

      Perhaps... but I'd doubt it factors in to the point that I would post about it.

      It just struck me as profoundly unfunny...

      It just reminds me of two guys saying "Remember when that one guy said... that one thing... that was funny"... and it just becomes viewed as "funny."

      Ah... now I know I've invested too much time talking about this.

    4. Re:And most importantly he was on the Simpsons by phong3d · · Score: 1

      It was funny in that in light of all his other accomplishments, books and publications, he was on the Simpsons, and that really means something.

  5. "The Mismeasure of Man"... uhhhh... by edrugtrader · · Score: 1, Funny

    no baby... i swear... i'm seven full inches... come back to my place, i know Stephen Jay Gould...

    come on baby, i never mismeasured

    --
    MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
  6. The world is a little darker by Walter+Wart · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Stephen Gould was that rarest of beasts - a cultured scientist who could make difficult, advanced concepts easy to grasp. He had a brilliant intellect, a witty and gentle sense of humor and an inspired gift for teaching and writing.

    Science, in fact all human culture is much poorer today. Sophia (the Hebrew spirit of wisdom) has turned her face from us. Why did he leave us so soon when we still need him to fight the good fight against igorance and superstition? When will we see one like him again?

    --
    The man who never alters his opinion is like the stagnant water and breeds Reptiles of the Mind -- William Blake
    1. Re:The world is a little darker by Walter+Wart · · Score: 5, Informative
      For those who aren't familiar with his work, Dr. Gould did more than write "The Mismeasure of Man" although that was an excellent piece of work.

      He was also Professor of Biology, Geology and History of Science at Harvard. For many years he wrote a wide-ranging and fascinating column, "This View of Life", in Natural History magazine. He was tireless in his efforts at promoting the teaching of science in the public schools and became the bane of the so-to-speak Scientific Creationists.

      And that is ignoring his greatest accomplishments. He was one of the great lights of evolutionary biology in the 20th century. His work with Eldredge (Eldridge?) on punctuated equilibrium led to some of the most fertile research on the rates and methods by which change happens in the natural world.

      Again, he will be missed.

      --
      The man who never alters his opinion is like the stagnant water and breeds Reptiles of the Mind -- William Blake
    2. Re:The world is a little darker by texchanchan · · Score: 2

      A beautiful statement of mourning. We needed him longer. But he left his words, and what fine, clear words they are.

    3. Re:The world is a little darker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let us not forget "Full House". Likening evolution to Baseball was brilliant to say the least.

    4. Re:The world is a little darker by HeywoodJablomi69 · · Score: 1

      I agree wholeheartedly. I have to ask though, are you channeling Chris Farley channeling The Incredible Hulk?

    5. Re:The world is a little darker by JebusIsLord · · Score: 1

      Indeed, though I regard his and Eldridge's theory of punctuated equilibrium to be a bit sensationalized (ie. its not really an attack on traditional evolution at all, but rather a fleshing-out of some seldom-discussed issues). His ability to promote discussion on topics normally concidered sacrosanct is impressive and should give us less open-minded individuals pause. Along with the loss of Carl Sagan several years ago, the world is now a darker place indeed.

      --
      Jeremy
    6. Re:The world is a little darker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would that all university lecturers could be so
      entertaining and still make you think.

    7. Re:The world is a little darker by OscarGunther · · Score: 1, Informative

      I don't normally write tributes to recently-deceased celebrities, but I'll make an exception in this case. Gould was about the closest thing I have to a hero. He fought the good fight for quality science education and against closed-minded superstition.

      I remember he came to speak at the University of Pennsylvania years ago. This was at the height of the creationist nonsense. So great was the appeal of his topic that the lecture was moved twice—ending up in the largest lecture hall on campus—before he even had a chance to speak. At one point during his talk, which was primarily about his and Eldredge's take on the mode and tempo of evolution, he made a dismissive, off-hand remark about creationism that was rewarded with a sustained ovation. In the middle of the Reagan era, when it seemed that the forces of ignorance were unstoppable, it was beyond heartening to hear one of the world's most famous scientists say, in essence, that Jerry Falwell was full of crap.

      Gould was also a prominent humanist and perhaps one of the best ways we can honor his life would be to give our support to organizations like the Council for Secular Humanism, as well as to those groups whose missions more closely mirror Gould's own.

    8. Re:The world is a little darker by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 2

      When will we see one like him again?

      Try reading Richard Dawkins :)

    9. Re:The world is a little darker by junkgrep · · Score: 1

      I like Dawkins, and in fact I think he's far more on the ball with a lot of things about evolution than was Gould. But Dawkins, for all his deep insight and clarity, was not quite the essayist or litterary wit that Gould was. Dawkins does kick ass though.

  7. Another (Longer) Obit by jhiv · · Score: 5, Informative

    There is longer and more complete obituary at the New York Times.

  8. For real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Hey this isn't one of those damn "Stephen King dead..." trolls is it?

  9. What kind of God... by scubacuda · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...would let a renowned evolutionist DIE?

    1. Re:What kind of God... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, shouldn't he have evolved into a higher life form or something? :)

      Of course, depending on your religion (or lack thereof), maybe he did. :)

    2. Re:What kind of God... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's in that big environmentally protected area in the Sky.

    3. Re:What kind of God... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All we know is that Gould died.

      Draw your own conclusions.

    4. Re:What kind of God... by maxcray · · Score: 1

      > All we know is that Gould died.
      >
      > Draw your own conclusions.

      I guess he went to meet his maker...

      Max

  10. Great man... by mclove · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Having met him briefly (signed my copy of "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory" and joked to me about dollars per pound and how dull it was) and sat in on many of his lectures, I have to say he was a fascinating guy. His class was often as amusingly off-topic as his Natural History articles, but he could talk about almost anything and make it sound interesting. And he's just about the only science geek to ever get his own Simpsons character... He'll be missed at Harvard, anyway; in a year when we've already lost half a dozen stellar faculty members to Princeton and Columbia, this was the last thing we needed now.

    1. Re:Great man... by emkman · · Score: 1

      And he's just about the only science geek to ever get his own Simpsons character

      How bout stephen hawking when the smart mensa people take over the town and then there is a fight over the gazebo. I consider Professor Hawking to be a science geek :)

      --
      Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
    2. Re:Great man... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod this guy up! He goes to Harvard!

    3. Re:Great man... by Happy+go+Lucky · · Score: 2, Interesting
      His class was often as amusingly off-topic as his Natural History articles, but he could talk about almost anything and make it sound interesting.

      With him, nothing was off-topic.

      Have you read Full House

      ? In it, he explores the disappearance of .400 batting and manages to use that to explain natural history. And it even got me slightly interested in baseball. Me! Baseball! I HATE baseball! (Maybe it was just being raised on the Kansas Shitty Royals)

      I've never seen him in person, but his unwritten work is a sore loss for all of us. At least in his writing, he was a brilliant, (+5 Insightful, we'd call him here) teacher.

    4. Re:Great man... by Mignon · · Score: 2
      And he's just about the only science geek to ever get his own Simpsons character...

      "Just about" indeed! Surely you're not overlooking Professor Frink!

    5. Re:Great man... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was lucky enough to be invited to a special discussion he was giving at Duke University about two years ago. Although he was a great man, and certainly an incredibly intelligent and thoughtful scientist, he was also rude, arrogant, and disrespectful to the students present. Just thought some people might like to know the truth.

  11. MC Hawking's Tribute by GuyMannDude · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think the legendary gangsta rapper MC Hawking said it best in F*ck The Creationists

    :

    Fuck the damn creationists, those bunch of dumb-ass bitches,
    every time I think of them my trigger finger itches.
    They want to have their bullshit, taught in public class,
    Stephen J. Gould should put his foot right up their ass.

    GMD

    1. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Gould's legacy is a complex one. While he struggled against creationists on one hand, he had a lot of tolerance and openness to "non-scientific ways of knowing" and religious belief (as long as it didn't contradict scientific reason). He was an evolutionary pluralist, in that he refused to reduce evolution to a genetic level, and he also denied that evolution was progressive. In order to make these points more clearly, unfortunately, he sometimes characterized his opponents (the "ultras", who used evolutionary theory to support political conservatism and sociobiological determinism), most notably Richard Dawkins, as being more reductionist than they really were.

    2. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me, Darwinism was always a joke. Seriously, NOT A SINGLE PERSON could make the whole theory reasonable. It is seriously flawed. Period.

    3. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by dimator · · Score: 2

      Heh, that is actually how I learned just who the hell Gould was. That song led me to look him up. ;)

      --
      python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
    4. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      For me, Darwinism was always a joke. Seriously, NOT A SINGLE PERSON could make the whole theory reasonable. It is seriously flawed. Period.

      Your post may just be the most unpersuasive thing I have ever read.

    5. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      welcome to the land of Christian Fundamentalist thought.

      wait until you try to debate abortion with them.... ew.....

    6. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by panurge · · Score: 1

      Dawkins has an unfortunate tendency to make anti-religion remarks that are embarrassingly naive, especially to "popular" audiences.
      If people like Gould characterise him as a reductionist, it's his fault.

      --
      Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
    7. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      "Hey, here we see some primitive creatures, and now, BOOM, here are gazillions of more complex ones. Now we see some even more complex ones, yeah, I know there is no good evidence, but BELIEVE IT"

      It seems to be stupid, but hey, it's how Darwinism is teached, as something completely right. It doesn't matter if no one can proof anything, because it's pretty religious.

    8. Re:MC Hawking's Tribute by MrOrn · · Score: 1
      "Hey, here we see some primitive creatures, and now, BOOM, here are gazillions of more complex ones. Now we see some even more complex ones, yeah, I know there is no good evidence, but BELIEVE IT"
      It seems to be stupid, but hey, it's how Darwinism is teached, as something completely right. It doesn't matter if no one can proof anything, because it's pretty religious.

      I looked at your characterisation of evolution and the evidence for it and thought: you are totally ignorant of evolution and paleontology.

      Then I looked at your syntax and spelling, and realised that you are simply ignorant.

      There is certainly a huge amount of evidence for evolution; for example, just take human evolution: go to a library and look up Tatersall, Ian. Becoming Human: Evolution and human uniqueness. New York: Harcourt Brace, 1998. You may also want to look up Eldredge, Niles. The triumph of evolution and the failure of creationism. New York: Henry Holt, 2001.

      What I find extremely amusing is that your caricature of evolution is in fact the "reasoning" the Creation "Scientists" [sic] and Fundamentalist Christians use when talking about their own take on how the world is as it is.

      You dismiss evolution as "pretty religious", which implies that relying on religion or belief is a poor method of argument, which is accurate. Shame that Creationism simply has religion or belief as its only bolster in this argument. You are hoist with your own petard.

  12. He made a good/bad point by zubernerd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    --"Science is not a heartless pursuit of objective information," Gould wrote in his 1977 book "Ever Since Darwin." "It is a creative human activity, its geniuses acting more as artists than as information processors."-- As a scientist I didn't know finding "objective information" was such a heartless thing... That explains my lack of a heartbeat. Actually Science is both the pursuit of "objective information" and then doing something with it... like finding new ideas, or see a pattern no one ever saw before. With that said, the man may be dead; but his ideas life on in the meme pool.

    --
    Accentuate the positive, don't waste your mod points on the negative.
    1. Re:He made a good/bad point by L-Train8 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Science is not a heartless pursuit of objective information," Gould wrote in his 1977 book "Ever Since Darwin." "It is a creative human activity, its geniuses acting more as artists than as information processors."

      I believe he wrote that in response to creationists' arguments that scientist were biased, and because of that, evolution is a flawed concept. His point was that of course scientists have opinions and beliefs, and this is a good and necessary thing.

      --

      Don't forget that Friday is Hawaiian shirt day.
    2. Re:He made a good/bad point by DigitalOZ · · Score: 1

      I think that his point precisely is what you are saying. That science is more than just looking at data, but also adding in the creative element that leads to new ideas and the discovery of patterns. As I read it, you are actuall restating his point.

  13. He finished his book! by possible · · Score: 5, Informative
    Gould has been sick for a long time. He managed to stay alive long enough to see published his magnum opus, "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory."

    From the recent interview with Gould (conducted March 15, 2002):

    Now, Mr. Gould is trying to write himself into the illustrious annals of scientific history. This month, Harvard University Press is publishing his 1,464-page magnum opus, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, a work 20 years in the making that seeks nothing less than to reformulate Darwin's theory of evolution.
    1. Re:He finished his book! by nucal · · Score: 2
      He managed to stay alive long enough to see published his magnum opus

      Could be that that helped him stay alive ... the human capacity to delay death can be astounding sometimes. Stephen Jay Gould managed to take this to its absolute limit.

    2. Re:He finished his book! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He also managed to get out his last volume of essays from Natural History magazine, just published this month. It's called "I Have Landed: The End of a Beginning in Natural History".

      He started his essays intentionally as a 10 book, 25 year, project. I think getting that last book to publication may also have been something that kept him going these past few months.

  14. It has to be said... by ptomblin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I hope he had a wonderful life.

    --
    The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
  15. my eyes just bugged out. by RestiffBard · · Score: 5, Funny

    for a guy that studied snails he was the best there was at explaining the unintelligble to the masses. I own several of his books and read them like most folks read Grisham.

    Wherever he is now I'm certain he's explaining something to someone.

    God: so how did I do that thing with the platypus again?
    Stephen: its easy. lets use baseball as an example...

    --
    - /* dead coders leave no comments */
    1. Re:my eyes just bugged out. by Telastyn · · Score: 2

      Ugh, I certainly hope not. Though you did make the connection between Grisham and snails...

      zzz

  16. The Median is not the Message by Dogun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He pulled this one on his buddies back in the Eighties. Read "The Median is not the Message" - wonderful essay - wherein he reveals that though the median amount of time someone has left to live with abdominal cancer is a mere 9 months, he has survived more than 10 years - The Median is Not the Message.

    Unfortunately, something tells me he really did bite it this time. Rest well, statistician, evolver. We understand punctuated equilibreum.

    1. Re:The Median is not the Message by Dogun · · Score: 1

      strike that - 20 years. Gotta be some sorta record!

    2. Re:The Median is not the Message by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently reverential adherence to an insubstantial theory is what substitutes for praise these days.

  17. major accomplishment left out of the write up by blonde+rser · · Score: 1, Redundant

    I can't remember Gould with out also remembering his guest appearance on the Simpsons, in "Lisa The Skeptic." oh and I guess he wrote a book or two as well.

    1. Re:major accomplishment left out of the write up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was in the New York Times writeup, though!

  18. RIP: SJ Gould by Ynefel · · Score: 3, Informative

    Steven was diagnosed with a rare form of abdominal cancer in 1982. Life expectancy was just 8 months after diagnosis of this form of cancer. Steven wrote a nice little essay entitled " The Median is Not the Message" to show how to treat that type of statistics, and to demonstrate that your attitude can make all the difference...

    http://www.cancerguide.org/median_not_msg.html

  19. SJG quote by DrMegaVolt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Look in the mirror, and don't be tempted to equate transient domination with either intrinsic superiority or prospects for extended survival." --Stephen Jay Gould

    1. Re:SJG quote by Canuckanuck · · Score: 1

      And another, my favourite:

      "The firm requirement for all science - whether stereotypical or historical - lies in secure testability, not direct observation. We must be able to determine whether our hypotheses are definitely wrong or probably correct (we leave assertions of certainty to preachers and politicians)." - SJG, Wonderful Life, pg. 282

  20. Thanks Mr. Gould... by SkyMunky · · Score: 1

    for all that you contributed. I don't often think back on my undergrad bio days, but do remember reading the Gould text. Rest in peace.

  21. Re:Great simpsons by maxume · · Score: 1

    Stephen Hawking did also, and I feel like I should be able to come up with more, but can't, unless Leneord Nemoy counts...

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  22. Re:Gould the Marxist and Atheist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Yep... he's probably up there with Xenu right now, joking about what sorts of punishment they're going to inflict on Jerry Falwell when he shows up :) Or something like that... considering his talents at rhetoric, I imagine even that other God will be admitting he didn't create the world in seven days after a little chat with Steve.

  23. A huge loss to society. by DwarfGoanna · · Score: 2

    Gould and Sagan were two of the greatest scientists/authors of all time, making a true effort to bring science to the level of the common man, and fighting pseudoscience at every turn. With both of them gone, they leave behind shoes that cannot be filled. A true loss for everyone, even those unfamiliar with Gould's work.

    --

    "You know why you do not see me styling wit my homies? Because I have no homies!!" -Mojo Jojo

    1. Re:A huge loss to society. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen.

  24. Stephens on the Simpsons by LittleGuy · · Score: 2

    Indeed, Gould was in Lisa the Skeptic, but fellow science geek Stephen Hawking was in They Saved Lisa's Brain.

    --
    Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
    1. Re:Stephens on the Simpsons by mclove · · Score: 1

      I said "just about". And it's difficult to call Hawking a "geek", anyway; brilliant, yes, scientist, yes, wacky, no. Hawking's more of a stuffy academic, while Gould was the sort of guy who would spend months and years on a lush tropical island paying more attention to snail shells than to the scenery and/or island girls. And Hawking bet magazine subscriptions with his professional rivals, while Gould went on CNN and wrote scathing editorials attacking his (Dawkins, the creationists, et al). Gould is the Linux to Hawking's BSD.

  25. Some of the other books are interesting too.... by os2fan · · Score: 3, Informative
    Like the "flamingo's smile".

    He did studies on Disney characters to show that our affection with them is similar to our affection to small children: Goofy, who head occupies as much of his height as an adult, attracts less affection than Mickey. This is true even when both play adult roles. Mickey has a wife and three kids.

    Another area he looked at is that most animals have the same number of heart-beats: that is, the length of the life and the heart beats scale at the same ratios. Humans have a longer life, about three times an animal of that size.

    The column-books like this (and nearly all of Martin Gardner's) are ideal reading on the bus, as it gives you a new story every day :)

    In punctuated equalibrium, one day, it's there, the next it's not. Rest in peace, Stephen. You deserve it.

    --
    OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.
    1. Re:Some of the other books are interesting too.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another area he looked at is that most animals have the same number of heart-beats: that is, the length of the life and the heart beats scale at the same ratios.


      (But inversely to each other... animals with rapid heart beats, like mice, tend to live shorter lives than animals with slower heart beats, like turtles.)


      So... that means that if I slow my heart down until it stops altogether, I'll live forever!!

    2. Re:Some of the other books are interesting too.... by os2fan · · Score: 2
      faster heart beats + shorter life form a direct ratio, not an indirect ratio. Eg 60s = 1 min, and 60 min = 1 hr, the ratio of sec / min is the same as the ratio of min / hrs.

      If you slow your heart beat to zero, you will indeed live for ever, and miss the passing parade. This is what suspended animation is all about. Unless you can find somewhere safe to hide, you may be recycled in the meantime, though.

      --
      OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.
    3. Re:Some of the other books are interesting too.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Higher heart rate -> lower life span. An inverse relationship (when one number gets bigger, the other gets smaller).

    4. Re:Some of the other books are interesting too.... by MAurelius · · Score: 1

      You really need to put the crack pipe down before you start expositing on ratios here on Slashdot. Some of us know what Steven Gould was talking about; on the other hand, you mistakenly belive a human convention (seconds, minutes, hours)has something to do with the biological relationship of heart beats to lifespan. Indirect ratio? Try inverse ratio, buddy. I think we are all dumber now, having read your post.

    5. Re:Some of the other books are interesting too.... by os2fan · · Score: 2
      Actually, honey, if you read what I said, I never said the "heart beat rates", but the "heart beats". The length of the time of a heart beat and the length of the time of the life do rise and fall in direct ratio.

      The example I made with seconds, minutes and hours makes the same point: making the lesser and longer units larger can preserve the same ratio.

      It was the anomynous coward that introduced the "heart beat rate", and hence inverted it, not me.

      --
      OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.
    6. Re:Some of the other books are interesting too.... by MAurelius · · Score: 1

      You were the one who brought up 'indirect ratio', and now it's suddenly direct ratio? Nothing like changing the terms of your argument and continuing to argue your point, as if you were right all along. Your argument about minutes, and hours is completely specious and off point to boot. BTW, the 'length of time of a heart beat' is called the cardiac cycle length, measured usually in milliseconds. But I love it when you call me 'honey.'

    7. Re:Some of the other books are interesting too.... by os2fan · · Score: 2
      Oh, dear me, dear me. You should really watch what's going on, diddums.

      I went all the way back to my first message, and searched for the string "direct". I used it just once, as in "not an indirect one". It appears in one of your messages too.

      All my messages are consistant with the comparisons of two time durations. The second/minute/hour thing is just another time example to show principle of ratio. No connexion was intended between that and the life in heart-beat value.

      With calling it a "cardiac cycle length", this is just a technical term. Really, most people understand the "length of a heart beat" more clearly than the other term. For all I know, they may be entirely different (such as in a "pace" and its cycle). But that's an irrelevant point.

      In fact, I have not changed *any* of the terms in my arguement. I have always suggested that the ratio of lengths of the heart beat and lifetimes are relatively constant, and not a function of size of the animal concerned. I've seen the thing scaled up to creatures the size of cities, and planets [eg the biosphere as "Gaia"], for example. In the Gaia example, what passes for us in a year is seen by Gaia as a second.

      Use of "off-topic" examples is a legitimate process in maths, when applying an unfamiliar process to an unfamilar subject, you can break it down to the same process on a familiar subject first.

      I have the nasty suspicion that I'm being "trolled" :(

      --
      OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.
  26. Re:Gould the Marxist and Atheist by DerekTheRed · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Of course all this is rather pointless sophistry, because GOD IS JUST IMAGINARY. Gould, while a luminary in the world of knowledge, has not gone anywhere. He's just dead. We'll miss him, and we needed him now more than ever, but that's it.

    --

    "Thank you, God, for your healing gift of religion."

  27. Stephen Jay Gould: An Appreciation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    by Michael Ruse, Lucyle T. Werkmeister Professor of Philosophy at Florida State University

    Stephen Jay Gould is dead. He died Monday morning of cancer. In his life, he was many things: a Harvard professor, a baseball fanatic, an enthusiastic singer of oratorio, an outstanding evolutionist, and above all the greatest science writer of his generation. Young people of all ages, in America and elsewhere, have grow up on Gould's scintillating monthly essays, published without break for twenty-five years, in the magazine Natural History. They have been charmed and intrigued and stimulated and excited. They have themselves been turned to science, realizing that there is simply nothing more worthwhile than trying to puzzle out the mysteries of the creation around and within us, and that the true miracle of life is that grubby little primates like us humans can find out so much about the universe and its inhabitants.

    Steve Gould was born in 1941, so he died just past 60. This is far too young, but for twenty years he was living on borrowed time. Just past the age of 40, Gould had fallen sick with a particularly virulent form of stomach cancer, and typical of everything he did in life he fought back and conquered. I knew him quite well. We had in 1981 been fellow witnesses for the ACLU in a successful fight in Arkansas to push back a Creationist law - a law insisting that the children of the state be taught Genesis taken literally alongside the truths that we are descended, by a slow natural process, ultimately from blobs, up through fish, reptiles and finally (our most recent ancestors) from ape-like creatures. At the trial, Gould had been (to put matters politely) somewhat on the chubby side, and a year later he was but a wraith. Yet his spirit was unchanged, and all he wanted to do was to argue and discuss and push the conversation forward. He was uninterested in himself and his health except as an object of science.

    But although Gould has gone too soon, he has gone with his life fulfilled. Earlier this month, he published the last and final collection of his essays. The title I Have Landed was taken from the diary of his immigrant grandfather, as he arrived at Ellis Island. Now, alas, the title refers also to Gould's own fate. Although the word "alas" is surely misplaced. Gould has truly landed, but what a flight! For month in and month out, as he explored the mysteries of nature, he delighted us with poetry in prose. Why is it that the zebra is striped, and should we think of it as a black animal with white stripes or a white animal with black stripes? In how many different ways do animals get from A to B, and why is it that no one seems to have invented the wheel? What did the eminent, nineteenth-century morphologist E Ray Lankester get up to when he took his frequent but unreported trips to Paris? How did the Jesuit Teilhard de Chardin get mixed up in the Piltdown Hoax, and did he know more about the bogus ape-man than he should have done? Why are there no 400 hitters today, and will the Red Sox ever again win the World Series?

    Even more important than his essays, in March Gould published his magnum opus: The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. Mixing history with science, science with literature, literature with religion, and much more, for over 1400 pages Gould explained the theory for which he is rightly known as a scientist - "punctuated equilibrium," the belief that the course of fossil history is not smooth and regular but jerky and contingent and unpredictable. The jury is still out on whether his ideas will prove of truly lasting value, but this one can say. No one, for the past thirty years, has been as successful as Stephen Jay Gould in making professional evolutionists rethink and reexamine their dearly held premises. As often is the case, the gad-fly was not always welcomed but he was always respected.

    I am proud to have known Steve Gould and to think that we were friends. But I want to end my appreciation on another note. For all his great achievements and successes, these were not the most important things in the life of Stephen Jay Gould. More significant by far was the fact that he never put pen to paper - actually, he wrote everything on the same, old-fashioned, manual typewriter - without a burning moral concern. His essays and books were always powered by a hatred of dishonesty and prejudice and hypocrisy. Gould wrote eloquently against racism and sexism and every other vile "ism" in the book. And more significant by far is what Gould represented and was able to achieve. He was rightly proud that he came from a humble background. His dad was a court reporter. He was even more proud that he (although not a formal believer) came from a Jewish family that had come to the New World in search of a better life for themselves and their children. Gould's favourite line was the exclamation of an aged relative on hearing his intended profession was paleontology. "And that's a job for a nice Jewish boy?!" That a nice Jewish boy was able to become a Harvard professor, the recipient of over a hundred honorary degrees, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, and much more, tells us something good about the country to which his ancestors set sail.

    1. Re:Stephen Jay Gould: An Appreciation by whyerd · · Score: 1
      Your comments are interesting here; I was hoping to ask Professor Gould about his reaction to your recent attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable in Can a Darwinian Be a Christian? I suspect that he would have had problems with it since he maintained that the most unlikely of contingencies is what brought about humans. This is a view that you reportedly reject.

      I haven't read your book, but I'll get around to it after going through The Structure of Evolutionary Theory (which is far more interesting than Gould himself said it was.)

      Thank you, Professor Ruse and more so, I was glad to know Professor Gould.

    2. Re:Stephen Jay Gould: An Appreciation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      moron, that wasn't Ruse, just a repost

    3. Re:Stephen Jay Gould: An Appreciation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Anonymous doesn't mean that it wasn't Ruse. It's less likely, but he might not have wanted/bothered to register.

      Just like you and I...

  28. Hitch Speaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    A song, by Robyn Hitchcock, called "Where do you go when you die?"

    Where do you go when you die?
    Where do you go when you die?
    There isn't any Saviour
    There isn't any Lord
    There isn't a Madonna
    Sitting there to be adored

    There is no damnation
    There is no salvation
    This is it for you, baby
    This is it for me
    Watch out, honey

    Where do you go when you die?
    Where do you go when you die?
    A church is full of people
    Praying to themselves
    Praying to each other
    Praying not to go to hell

    A church is full of people
    Praying to the void
    Eyes deep within them
    And they're feeling paranoid

    All I ever been is me
    All I know is I
    And I will turn to nothing
    In the second that I die

    Oh, where do you go when you die?
    Where do you go when you die?
    Your consciousness evaporates
    Your body hits the ground
    And if you have a soul, you know
    It will not stick around

    It could merge with Napoleon's
    Or blend with Easy E's
    It might get stuck in limbo
    Like a balloon stuck in the trees

    There ain't no Pontius Pilate
    There ain't no Judas Priest
    There's just a lump of rotting meat
    Officially pronounced deceased

    Oh yeah, baby, where do you go when you die?
    Where do you go when you die?
    You're not supposed to ask this question
    You're supposed to be here now
    And if you have good karma
    You won't come back as a piece of British beef

    Where do you go when you die?
    Nowhere
    Where do you go when you die?
    Nowhere.

  29. Re:Stephen Jay Gould is Dead. by cyril3 · · Score: 0

    almost had us fooled there , except that no-one on talkback radio would have heard of SJG or be able to pronounce paleontologist. he'd be 'that fossil guy from the simpsons' if hes mentioned at all.

  30. Harsh criticism of Gould by SiliconEntity · · Score: 4, Interesting
    It is customary not to speak ill of the dead, but it may be helpful to see some balance to the high praises of Gould being sung here.

    A letter in the New York Review of Books by two researchers at the UCSB Center for Evolutionary Psychology begins:

    John Maynard Smith, one of the world's leading evolutionary biologists, recently summarized in the NYRB the sharply conflicting assessments of Stephen Jay Gould: "Because of the excellence of his essays, he has come to be seen by non-biologists as the preeminent evolutionary theorist. In contrast, the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists." (NYRB, Nov. 30th 1995, p. 46). No one can take any pleasure in the evident pain Gould is experiencing now that his actual standing within the community of professional evolutionary biologists is finally becoming more widely known. If what was a stake was solely one man's self-regard, common decency would preclude comment.

    But as Maynard Smith points out, more is at stake. Gould "is giving non-biologists a largely false picture of the state of evolutionary theory" -- or as Ernst Mayr says of Gould and his small group of allies -- they "quite conspicuously misrepresent the views of [biology's] leading spokesmen."[1] Indeed, although Gould characterizes his critics as "anonymous" and "a tiny coterie," nearly every major evolutionary biologist of our era has weighed in in a vain attempt to correct the tangle of confusions that the higher profile Gould has inundated the intellectual world with.[2] The point is not that Gould is the object of some criticism -- so properly are we all -- it is that his reputation as a credible and balanced authority about evolutionary biology is non-existent among those who are in a professional position to know.

    And goes on to close,

    Now, given the foregoing, one is left with the puzzle of why Gould so customarily reverses the truth in his writing. We suggest that the best way to grasp the nature of Gould's writings is to recognize them as one of the most formidable bodies of fiction to be produced in recent American letters. Gould brilliantly works a number of literary devices to construct a fictional "Gould" as the protagonist of his essays and to construct a world of "evolutionary biology" every bit as imaginary and plausible as Faulkner's Yoknapatawpha County. Most of the elements of Gould's writing make no sense if they are interpreted as an honest attempt to communicate about science (e.g., why would he characterize so many researchers as saying the opposite of what they actually do) but come sharply into focus when understood as necessary components of a world constructed for the fictional "Gould" to have heroic fantasy adventures in -- adventures during which the admirable character of "Gould" can be slowly revealed.

    In the course of these engaging tales, Gould the author introduces us to a gallery of vivid villains and ethnicities, such as "adaptationists," "Dawkins" and the soulless "hyperreductionists" with their vivisectionist appetites, "Wilson" and the sinister "sociobiologists", "biological determinists," and most recently, the holy-rolling "Darwinian fundamentalists," including "Maynard Smith" with his "simplistic dogmatism," "Dennett," "evolutionary psychologists," and "Robert Wright." "Gould" the protagonist is a much loved character (and not just in our household) who reveals himself to be learned, subtle, open-minded, tolerant, funny, gracious to his opponents, a tireless adversary of cultural prejudice, able to swim upstream against popular opinion with unflinching moral courage, able to pierce the surface appearances that capture others, and indeed to be not only the most brilliant innovator in biology since Darwin, but more importantly to be the voice of humane reason against the forces of ignorance, passion, incuriousity, and injustice. The author Gould, not least because he labors to beguile his audience into confusing his fictional targets with actual people and fields, is sadly none of these things.

    Anyone in Gould's position is bound to attract criticism, but lay people may not be aware of the tremendous divisions within the evolutionary community which produced such negative responses to Gould.

    1. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by gdyas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is customary not to speak ill of the dead, but ...

      But you're going to do it anyway because you like playing devil's advocate, right?

      There's a time and place for everything, and those who are interested in evolutionary theory know where the chinks in Gould's armor are. But chosing today to pick his nits is like bashing Darwin for getting parts of natural selection all screwed up only to ignore the larger grandeur of his contributions.

      So please, lay off.

      --

      The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.

    2. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by cyril3 · · Score: 0

      Actually its like going to Darwins funeral and bashing him for getting parts of natural selection all screwed up etc.

    3. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by blamanj · · Score: 5, Informative

      It should be noted that the authors of the letter quoted above were not penning an unbiased critique of Gould, they had an axe to grind.

      Specifically, Gould had criticized their book, The Adapted Mind, in an earlier NYRB essay.

      Those familiar with NYRB know that once someone's pet theory has been criticized, the letter writing often takes the form of personal attacks and accusations, so I'd take the above with a grain of salt.

    4. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NY Times obituary mentions Gould having severe critics. There are many academics who regard punctuated equilibrium and the mismeasure of man as garbage. I think Gould is a charlatan.

    5. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The mushy vacuity of an understanding such as "the larger grandeur of contributions" would have certainly appealed to Gould.

    6. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by NearlyHeadless · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For interesting reading about Gould and how he was regarded in his field, see The Gould Files

      There are some critical reviews of The Mismeasure of Man:

      http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/jensen-gould- fossils

      http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/psycho logy/IQ/carroll-gould.html

    7. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      In contrast, the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists."


      Funny, in a paleontology class I took this last semester I read an essay by GOuld addressing this very idea - that evolutionists should stick together against the creationists regardless of whether the evolutionists agree. As I recall, Gould thought this was a terrible idea, basically saying that it was fundamental to the scientific process that ideas be openly discussed regardless of whether it supports or counters arguments made by creationists. In other words, Gould was acknowledging that not everyone agreed with his views, but was saying that is exactly as it should be in the scientific process. Before you go criticizing one of the best thinkers in the field of evolution, maybe you better look at where the criticism is coming from; the Center for Evolutionary Psychology????? At UCSB??? Uh.... yeah. Whatever.

    8. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Darby · · Score: 1

      At UCSB??? Uh.... yeah. Whatever.

      Actually, UCSB is one of the best schools in the country in a number of areas: Physics, Math, Marine Biology, and several others. I don't know how their psychology department is, but to discard it out of hand marks you as a fool.

    9. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by MarkusQ · · Score: 2

      I think the main problem was that (to steal a line from Max Born) "he wrote more clearly than he thought." I feel he did a great deal of harm to the public acceptance of evolution by inventing controversy and misrepresenting the work of others. Just because he's dead doesn't make his views any more sound.

      Many people die each day. We happen to be discussing Gould because he happened to be famous. I personally feel much more loss over the death of the hundreds of interesting people who died today without every becoming famous.

      -- MarkusQ

    10. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by shilly · · Score: 1

      Why are you calling someone a fool when you don't read their posts properly? It makes you look stupid. The poster was discussing the centre for *evolutionary psychology* at UCSB, not the psychology department.

    11. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by awol · · Score: 1

      There is a huge "cultural" issue here. The Americans view Gould as the authority on accessible Evolutionary Biology (to put it simply). Most of the rest of the world does not. Further many (most?) think he is wrong and other's think he is positively destructuive to the understanding of evolution. Punctured Equilibrium being a crock and all.

      --
      "The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
    12. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Darby · · Score: 1

      Why are you calling someone a fool when you don't read their posts properly?

      I did read his post properly.
      His ridicule was directed at UCSB as in "well *that* school is obviously bad"
      Maybe he meant it differently, but then it wasn't properly written to give that indication.

      So I guess your post just made you look stupid?

    13. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by shilly · · Score: 1

      Nope. You, however, are digging a fantastic hole for yourself. You are clearly unable to read your own post as well as other people's. You took him to task on two points: criticising UCSB without foundation and *in particular*, criticising its PSYCHOLOGY department without foundation. You will note that my post picked you up for the latter point, not the former: that you referred to the *psychology* department but that he had talked about the *evolutionary psychology* department. I had nothing to say--deliberately--about your complaint that he should not criticise a school without foundation, as I agreed with it.

      The issue is not the clarity of his post--it is the clarity of your original response.

    14. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by rde · · Score: 2

      I personally feel much more loss over the death of the hundreds of interesting people who died today without every becoming famous.
      If I had a little machine for measuring sanctimony, you'd have just blown it up. Yours is the sort of bullshit statement designed so that mindless moderators'll think it's insightful, without taking the several seconds to realise it's full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

      I feel he did a great deal of harm to the public acceptance of evolution by inventing controversy
      I can think of few people who've done more for the public acceptance of evolutionary theory. He's certainly the man who got me interested in the subject. Punctuated equilibrium, to my mind, answers so many questions it's amazing people are so dismissive of it.
      And what's so bad about controversy? If scientists aren't controversial at some stage, they're not doing their job.

    15. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Type-IIa · · Score: 1

      Nits? It's the facts, Jack. Gould's grand reputation is being touted here, but it is undeserved. Not everyone who reads his books know that he stood outside the main thrust of evolutionary theory. As for speaking ill of the dead, I've no axe to grind over Gould but I wish we would adopt the tradition of speaking the truth about the dead.

    16. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 2
      ...chosing today to pick his nits...

      I somehow doubt that Gould would want anything (even his own death) to muffle controversy, debate, and an honest search for truth (even over his own actions).

      --
      PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
    17. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Zerelli · · Score: 1

      How utterly disgusting that you point out that it is not customary to speak ill of the dead yet launch into such a vile derogatory on a man's work. The reason it is not customary is that it is rude and uncalled for. What goal did you have in mind there? As for your vaunted criticisms. I see that the substance of them is rather thin. These "critics" are themselves criticized by Gould and we are supposed to be somehow impressed that they just call his work fictitous (sp?)? Of course they would try to debunk him, but it is laughable to debunk such work by calling it fiction. PROVE he was wrong. I doubt they will succeed there. In any event, how do you think Darwin's works were received? How are they received today? That these people would be so against it means little to nothing. Until someone else writes something concrete to disprove what Gould stated then his work is as valid as any other.

    18. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      As Deep Thought said in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
      "And it occurs to me that running a program like this is bound to create an enormous amount of popular publicity for the whole area of philosophy in general. Everyone's going to have their own theories about what answer I'm eventually going to come up with, and who better to capitalize on that media market than you yourselves. So long as you can keep disagreeing with each other violently enough and maligning each other in the popular press, and so long as you have clever agents, you can keep yourselves on the gravy train for life."
      Anyone who takes John Maynard Smith's remarks at face value, and overlooks that he has, as one of his goals, to sell books, is just not thinking clearly at all.
    19. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by slipandfall · · Score: 1

      One of the best things about the evolutionary biology field and the huge egos that dominate it is the intense academic flame wars that take place constantly. One of my favorite feuds was between Daniel Dennett, a renowned professor of philosophy and cognitive studies at Tufts. In one of his best works, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Dennett states that Gould is an intellectual coward for not following his ideas through to their logical conclusion. A couple of years later, Gould responded with an ad hominem attack in the New York Review of Books. Here's Dennett's reply: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Dennett To: nyrev@nybooks.com Subject: reply to Gould June 12, 1997 To the Editor The New York Review of Books 1755 Broadway New York, NY 10019-3780 Stephen Jay Gould complains that in Darwin's Dangerous Idea I attack his views via "hint, innuendo, false attribution" and "caricature." That is false. On the contrary, I went to extraordinary lengths to ensure that my account of his views was fair and accurate. One does not lightly embark on the course of demonstrating that a figure as famous and as honored as Stephen Jay Gould--"America's evolutionist laureate"--has misled his huge public about the theories in his field. I knew he was going to hate my book, and given the effectiveness of his past public attacks on sociobiology, IQ testing, and other targets of his disfavor, prudence alone would dictate that I should secure my criticisms against easy rebuttal and condemnation. So I did my usual homework, and checked it all out with experts in the field, including experts sympathetic to Gould, urging them to correct any errors they spotted. I sent drafts of my critical chapters to Gould himself more than a year before I sent the final manuscript to the publisher, inviting him to meet with me at his convenience, or to respond in whatever way he chose. I invited him to participate in my seminar that was reviewing the penultimate draft. Gould kindly met with me in the summer of 1994, and we spent several hours going over his objections to the penultimate draft. He raised a variety of objections, and supported some of them with texts, and wherever he convinced me I had misinterpreted him, I revised my draft accordingly. On some points, however, he failed to persuade me, and one is particularly instructive, since now he accuses me of deliberately misrepresenting him. I claimed that for a while he had presented punctuated equilibrium as a revolutionary "saltationist" alternative to standard neo-Darwinism, and he implored me to check this claim by reviewing all his work that dealt with the issue. It started well; he provided me with his complete curriculum vitae and photocopies of every piece therein that I requested. When I reviewed them, however, I found quotations--in addition to those that appear in my book on pages 286-290--that clearly supported my claim. I wrote back to him citing these. (Instead of quoting the quotations from my long letter to Gould, I refer readers to his notorious 1980 paper in Paleobiology, entitled "Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?") I ended my letter: "I want to be fair. When you begged me to see for myself that your opponents were foisting a caricature on you, you struck a nerve . . . . But now I need some more help from you if I am going to say that your critics are wrong in claiming that you tried on saltationism and then abandoned it." He never responded to my letter, or made any further attempt to correct my claims, and now he describes my interpretation of his views as "a farrago of false charges." On the contrary, my interpretation is standard fare, widely accepted in the field. For instance, two eminent evolutionary biologists, Jerry A. Coyne and Brian Charlesworth of Department of Ecology and Evolution, University of Chicago, wrote recently in response to a similar complaint of Gould's in a letter in Science (18 April, 1997, p338-341.): "In the past 25 years, Eldredge and Gould have proposed so many different versions of their theory that it is difficult to describe it with any accuracy. . . . Punctuated equilibrium originally attracted great attention because it invoked distinctly non-Darwinian mechanisms for stasis and change. . . . leading to Gould's pronouncement that 'if Mayr's characterization of the synthetic theory [of evolution] is accurate, then that theory, as a general proposition, is effectively dead, despite its persistence as textbook orthodoxy.'" Neo-Darwinism--the synthetic theory of evolution that Gould propagandistically elides into "Darwinian fundamentalism"--is alive and well, in the textbooks and the laboratories. When Gould suggests otherwise, he is misleading the public. Let me say a word about "Darwinian fundamentalism." Nonsense. I do not espouse the preposterous views Gould attributes to this mythic creed. Gould labors to create a caricature of the "strict" adaptationist, a type that occurs nowhere in nature and is explicitly disavowed, at length, by me (Darwin's Dangerous Idea, pp. 55, 238-261, 302-5, 326-8, and elsewhere). In fact, the passage from my book which Gould uses to anchor his fantasy is misquoted by him. It is adaptationist thinking, not "adaptation, natural selection's main consequence" that I say plays a crucial and ubiquitous role in analysis, and so it does, even though, as I stress again and again, there are plenty of other factors (comets, and other catastrophes, for instance) that may well play the predominant causal role in particular cases. What is amazing is that Gould wrests this quotation from the very section (pp238-61) in which I attempt to undo the travesty of Gould's previous efforts over the years to caricature adaptationist thinking. When Gould complains further of my "red-baiting" and "gratuitous speculation" about his religious views, this hits a new low. As he knows full well, his scientific critics have often attributed his curious biases to his politics or his views on religion, and I was pointedly disassociating myself from those claims. My criticisms are of his science and his logic, not his political or religious views. But Gould wants to have it both ways; he lards his own writing with political and religious motifs and then howls about red-baiting when anybody takes him up on it--even to dismiss it as beside the point, which is what I did. Besides, if his politics and religion are to be off limits to criticism, then he should clean up his own act. It is he, not I, who has repeatedly failed to live up to the fine principle that he himself has so eloquently expressed: Scientists have power by virtue of the respect commanded by the discipline. We may therefore be sorely tempted to misuse that power in furthering a personal prejudice or social goal--why not provide that extra oomph by extending the umbrella of science over a personal preference in ethics or politics? But we cannot, lest we lose the very respect that tempted us in the first place. (Bully for Brontosaurus, 1991, pp.429-430.) I am sorry it has come to this. In my discussions with Gould over the years, I have tried hard to get him to stop misrepresenting the works that he disapproved of, to clarify his position, and to disavow the misconstruals of evolutionary theory that are so often expressed by non-biologists citing him as their authority. In my book I carefully left open a graceful avenue for him to take: if he wished, he could claim that his eager public had been misreading him and then take responsibility for correcting their readings. He chose instead to turn up the volume of his vituperation. There are quite a few minor mistakes in my book, including three he cites, but they do not substantially affect any of my criticisms of his views. I have put a list of these errors on the web site of the Center for Cognitive Studies . I will not respond further to Gould's charges, trusting that readers will take him up on his challenge: "If you think I am being simplistic or unfair to Dennett in this characterization, read his book. . . " Do, please; see for yourself; that's the scientific way. John Maynard Smith praises my book; Stephen Jay Gould attacks it. They are both authorities, but they can't both be right, can they? Daniel C. Dennett

    20. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by MarkusQ · · Score: 2

      If I had a little machine for measuring sanctimony, you'd have just blown it up.

      Evidently because your hypothetical sanctimony machine can't handle honesty.

      Punctuated equilibrium, to my mind, answers so many questions it's amazing people are so dismissive of it.

      "Punctuated equilibrium" is a good example of what I'm talking about. It is important to realize that the fossil record is very incomplete:

      • The vast majority of biological changes effect parts of the critter that don't fossilize
      • The vast majority of critters die without fossilizing
      • The vast majority of the fossils wind under the ocean, deep under ground, or are destoyed
      • We (and recognize only a small fraction of the fossils that are accessible
      The incompleteness of the fossil record has been used for years by creationists to muddle the issues (c.f. the "missing link controversy"). There is a simple, accurate explanation of why we don't see intermediate forms, and it is important that it be clearly communicated: We don't see the intermediate forms because the fossil record is (quantifiable) incomplete.

      Rather than using his writing abilities to present this undisputed fact, Gould cooked up "punctuated equilibrium" and got a large number of people waisting their time on another "explanation" for something that is an artifact of the data sample in the first place.

      Imagine that the only record you had of life before WWI was a collection black and white films, from which 99% of the frames had been distroyed and 99% of each remaining frame was damaged beyond recognition. With years of hard work you'd managed to piece together a pretty good--if very incomplete--idea of what life was like in those day.

      Then a Gould comes along and proposes a threory of "punctuated hanging out," claiming that people used to move by teleporting from place to place (thus "explaning" the lack of examples of coherent motion in your data). Would you welcome him?

      Suppose than he proceeds to take such shallow, useless, pot shots at good people and sound work for decades, seemingly for no reason than to prop up his own fame & ego. Would you miss his "contribution" when he finally stopped, for whatever reason?

      Note that I'm not saying that I'm glad he died. I'm saying that I, for one, won't miss his contribution.

      -- MarkusQ

    21. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by rde · · Score: 2

      Imagine that the only record you had of life before WWI was a collection black and white films, from which 99% of the frames had been distroyed and 99% of each remaining frame was damaged beyond recognition. With years of hard work you'd managed to piece together a pretty good--if very incomplete--idea of what life was like in those day.
      Then a Gould comes along and proposes a threory of "punctuated hanging out," claiming that people used to move by teleporting from place to place (thus "explaning" the lack of examples of coherent motion in your data). Would you welcome him?


      Or to put it another way: after putting together the partial frames, scientists managed to come up with a picture that stated telportation was the norm. Then along comes Gould...

      I'm not stating that PE is definitely correct. To me it seems the most reasonable explanation. If you disagree, that's cool. But to state that offering an alternative explanation is wrong because it'll give ammunition to the Enemy is just bullshit.

      The reasoning behind PE is based on more that just gaps in the fossil record, BTW. If a sparse fossil record were the sole basis for any theory, I'd cheerfully sneer. But from a logical and statistical POV, I'm behind PE.

    22. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by MarkusQ · · Score: 2

      Or to put it another way: after putting together the partial frames, scientists managed to come up with a picture that stated telportation was the norm. Then along comes Gould...

      Sure. If punctuated equilibrium had been the accepted theory and Gould had been the one to point out that there was a simpler theory that fit the data just as well without all the hand waving, I'd have been all for it. But that's not the way it happened.

      But to state that offering an alternative explanation is wrong because it'll give ammunition to the Enemy is just bullshit.

      I never stated that, or even implied it. What I said was I didn't see value in people who create "controversy" just to promote themselves, or in people who write convincing "explanations" that miss the point in question. I'd feel the same way if he'd written a popular book on why the sun orbits the Earth or something.

      The reasoning behind PE is based on more that just gaps in the fossil record, BTW. If a sparse fossil record were the sole basis for any theory, I'd cheerfully sneer.

      I agree, the reasoning is based on a lot more. But what does it get you? What does it explain that actually needs explanation? Where is it better than the null hypothosis? What does it predict that you couldn't have predicted otherwise? In short, what good is it?

      -- MarkusQ

    23. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by Darby · · Score: 1

      and *in particular*, criticising its PSYCHOLOGY department without foundation. You will note that my post picked you up for the latter point, not the former: that you referred to the *psychology* department but that he had talked about the *evolutionary psychology* department.

      I only had one point. You made up the "latter point".
      I said that I knew nothing about the quality of psychology at UCSB. This includes *any* type of psychology be it cognitive, abnormal, evolutionary or any other type. You have some real issues with jumping off the handle. You might look into some sort of psychology on the patient end.
      Unfortunately, as I already stated, I can't recommend anything specific to you.

    24. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by milliwattb · · Score: 1

      Uhhhh... if an evolutionist who doesn't believe in life after death is dead, why would he or anyone else care what is said?

    25. Re:Harsh criticism of Gould by shilly · · Score: 1

      My God but you're persistent in being wrong, aren't you? How can I make this clearer for you? You talked about the psychology department. The psychology department does not include the centre for evolutionary psychology, as they are unrelated subjects.

  31. Dawkins' views by jbennetto · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You're misunderstanding Dawkins. Neither he nor (AFAIK) any serious evolutionary scientist claims that evolution is a justification for social conservatism. There's a big difference between saying we are selfish (a la The Selfish Gene) and that we should be selfish.

    Social Darwinism is little more than a straw man. They certainly had differences, but this wasn't one of them.

    1. Re:Dawkins' views by junkgrep · · Score: 1

      Dawkins didn't even argue that WE were selfish. It's our genes that he argued are "selfish" (an idea more poetic than accurate, as Dawkin's has admitted). This is important, because often the 'selfish' nature of genes can even lead to genetic dispositions towards extreme altruism.

    2. Re:Dawkins' views by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The gist of Gould's dissatisfaction with this is that it is all too teleological. Genes don't want anything. It's true the genes are the primary medium of information about the structure of organisms, and after that, Selection (among other things, including meteors and the like) Happens. But too much of story of the 'ultras' - at least the somewhat-unfair caricature of the ultras, which is still useful for making the point - depends on attributing to genes a sort of goal, which is sort of like saying that shingles "want" to keep rain of our heads, or even that shingles keep rains off our heads because they "want" to get put on roofs. It's a bit anthropomorphic

    3. Re:Dawkins' views by junkgrep · · Score: 1

      ---The gist of Gould's dissatisfaction with this is that it is all too teleological. Genes don't want anything.---

      This is where I think Gould's ideolouge tendancies took over his honesty. Dawkins et al never claimed that genes really "want" anything, and that this was anything more than metaphor. He even carefully explains this, for goodness sake! Gould hammered Dawkins on what was essentially an unfair characterization of Dawkin's argument, based on little more than the title. This was not an honest criticism.

    4. Re:Dawkins' views by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dawkins does not say that we are selfish,
      he says our genes are selfish, and in doing so he is telling one of the deepest truths of this world. did you really ever read 'the selfish gene'?

  32. If only... by jaavaaguru · · Score: 2, Funny

    If only this had come sooner...

  33. Gould: The millenium started on Jan 1, 2000 by mikosullivan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Gould was one of the most prominent people in the scientific community to defend the idea that the millenium started on Jan 1, 2000. He agreed with the idea that the concept of the "millenium" was an arbitrary one and that we were free to decide when our milleniums start. I cited him in a lot of those annoying "when does the millenium start" conversations we all had to endure during that time.

    --
    Miko O'Sullivan
    1. Re:Gould: The millenium started on Jan 1, 2000 by mclove · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He actually had a pretty good argument for the scientific types, too: the first century only had 99 years. Simple enough, no?

    2. Re:Gould: The millenium started on Jan 1, 2000 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course. Gould never let the discomfort of principle stand in the way of the comfort of groupthink.

    3. Re:Gould: The millenium started on Jan 1, 2000 by Jack+Hughes · · Score: 1

      A thousand years later and you still can't spell millennium.

    4. Re:Gould: The millenium started on Jan 1, 2000 by Corvus9 · · Score: 1
      ... the first century only had 99 years. Simple enough, no?
      No.

      The first century, like the second, and all the others up to the 20th, had 100 years; that's what "century" means.

      The first century lasted from the years 1AD to 101AD. See? 100 years. The second century was from 101 to 201AD, and so on from 1901 to 2001. Twenty centuries. Get it?

  34. Why I submitted this by gdyas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With the exception of his most recent 2-3 books, I've read everything he's written, most of it while I was in high school. I didn't agree with all of it, but it was wonderful to explore these ideas, to look at the evidence for things, and try to construct theories that might explain them. Between Gould & Richard Dawkins I learned, before I knew if I wanted to be a scientist, what science was like and how it could answer powerful questions about biology, which I loved.

    So I read this in the news this morning, and I go around the lab asking people -- "You know who Stephen Jay Gould is?" -- and to my surprise, none of the 6 or so people I asked, scientists all, knew. Sigh. I understand that many scientists are too preoccupied with their work to read about evolutionary theory, but still. It's a pity. So I figured I'd post it here, have a little nerd wake for those of us who still read the giants of biology, because one of the giants fell this morning.

    Thanks to his writing I learned what I wanted to do with my life. About a decade of working in molecular biology later, I'm still not sure I agree 100% on some of his ideas, but they're clear, powerful, and worthy of deep study. So thanks, Dr. Gould.

    --

    The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.

  35. Re:Gould the Marxist and Atheist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What makes you think the two concepts--the existence of God and the existence of immortality--have anything to do with each other? The entire Old Testament is loaded with statements about God, and none at all about life after death. Buddhists, on the other hand, vice versa. Plenty lives after death, no God. Take your pick.

    But your main point is all too true. SJG is gone and whether he's somewhere else or not, we don't have him any more and we're all going to miss him.

  36. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heaven is too hot anyway. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm
    I'll stick to hell where it's much more temperate.
    Also, the catholic church awknoledges evolution and has for years..get over it.

  37. rip Geoff Mandrake harrison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As you know, we recently lost a genius of our own. Truly Geoff was amazing person to be around. Those stories that he told "about a functional wm" made us all laugh....oh wait a minute that george Harrison..the beatle..sorry Geoff is alive and well...

  38. meausure of a teacher... by wccwcc · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I was lucky to sit in on a small keynote that Gould gave at a symposium at a local university. I will never forget the playfulness he had when he used a lectern pointer miming a pool cue as how one might direct a theory across the table of ideas.

    More fortunate, I was able to chat and listen in on his conversations with graduate students at the same symposium's social gathering. What I noticed was that he encouraged debate in his conversations, moderating his comments to the people he was talking to, and not to conclusions to but to ask more questions.

    I really think he believed that what we think is less important than how we think.

    Whether his theories stand the test of time, his ability to open debate to a wider audience made science all the better.

  39. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by cyril3 · · Score: 0
    I assume that means your off to kill yourself.

    a mind being a question machine, is wasted when as in your case it is used only as a sponge. so go ahead.

  40. Nitpick: Sophia is Greek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Despite the fact that I know an Israeli scientist named Sofia, the word is Greek in origin, not Hebrew.

  41. RIP in deed... by ImaLamer · · Score: 2

    Seeing him (on tape) in a Anthropology class made me fall in love with him and the subjects he covered.

    Something tells me Steven Jay Gould and Carl Sagan are sitting there with God telling him how he should have formed life and the universe.

    BTW, does anyone know here Gould was born, I can't seem to find it...

    1. Re:RIP in deed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carl Sagan, indeed, that other astrophysicist who wasn't. I really don't understand what attracts people to the facile decomposition of the world into rhetorical presupposition, but there you have it.

    2. Re:RIP in deed... by connorbd · · Score: 2

      Read the Borderlands of Science by Michael Shermer -- Sagan may have been overbearing, but he was by all indications more of a scientist than most of us will ever be. At least he published like one...

      (btw, I wouldn't recommend buying it, just flipping through it -- this is Shermer at his driest and most stat-bound...)

      /Brian

  42. Schitterende oogemblik by theolein · · Score: 3, Funny

    This was a Dutch TV series of documentaries on 5 scientists back in the early 90's. One of them was Stephan Gould. In the final show, the five scientists had a roundtable discussion and the subject got around to AI, which was one of the scientists strengths, and who was claiming that AI could replace humans and we wouldn't know it or be able to differentiate between it and life. Stephan Gould asked him if he had ever had a dog.

    1. Re:Schitterende oogemblik by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Stephan Gould asked him if he had ever had a dog.

      And?

    2. Re:Schitterende oogemblik by Yperion · · Score: 0

      it was 'schitterend ongeluk'
      (loose translation: 'a fantastic accident')

      --
      core dumped.
    3. Re:Schitterende oogemblik by theolein · · Score: 1

      No, I'm sorry, but it was the original title - schitterende oogemblik. (This translates as a brilliant moment or brilliant event)

    4. Re:Schitterende oogemblik by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He asked that question to Daniel C. Dennett. Dunno exactly why, I think it had something to do with Dennett's mechanical views about the soul/consciousness/brain. It was called 'een schitterend ongeluk', what you wrote isnt even dutch ;)

    5. Re:Schitterende oogemblik by theolein · · Score: 2

      You're right (my memory!! did a search). I'm South African and in Afrikaans it would have been "'n skitterende oomblik" if I had had it right. Sorry, hoor!

  43. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    > ...athiests don't go to heaven so then must go to ____.

    Just like the rest of us, athiests go where God sends them.

    Jesus told us two conditions for salvation:
    1)Believe in Me, and you shall be saved. A sufficient condition.
    2) Except through Me, no one shall be saved. A necessary condition.

    We can assume that some one who ignores the easy, sufficient condition is probably in trouble, but, re-read 1) and 2). He didn't say ``Don't believe in Me and go to hell.'' Jesus might well chose to intervene for someone who didn't believe, and it's none of our business either way.

    Too bad he led such a hopeless life spreading mis-information to the masses. It sounds like he had alot of talent and at least some good ideas.

    Not knowing the hope that God held out to us in Jesus is sad, but did he really spread mis-information? It seems to me that God must really like evolutionists. They spend so much time studying his creation, and telling us all how wonderful, and how wonderfully unlikely, it all is. I should think that and a reverent attitude should count for a lot, but see my point in the previous paragraph: we don't know, and probably shouldn't speculate. God told us how we can get to heaven if we want. If He had wanted us to know who wasn't going, He'd have told us that. That information is conspicuously lacking, from the bible and from the fossil records.

    If you've accepted God's grace, and admitted the Holy Spirit into your heart, you're saved. If there is another way to salvation than point 1) above, it is uncertain, and painful, because it precludes having the comfort and love God wants us to enjoy right now. Tell everyone how wonderful God's offer to us all is, and don't turn people off to it by fulminating against others. We can never understand their relationship with God, and we don't need to.

  44. Re:Gould the Marxist and Atheist by gewalker · · Score: 1

    Maybe so, but if not, he is realizing right about now how big of a mistake he made about the Creation vs. Evolution issue

  45. Re:Gould the Marxist and Atheist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll
    > Or something like that... considering his talents at rhetoric, I imagine even that other God will be admitting he didn't create the world in seven days after a little chat with Steve.



    Just like the rest of us, athiests go where God sends them.

    Jesus told us two conditions for salvation:
    1)Believe in Me, and you shall be saved. A sufficient condition.
    2) Except through Me, no one shall be saved. A necessary condition.

    We can assume that some one who ignores the easy, sufficient condition is probably in trouble, but, re-read 1) and 2). He didn't say ``Don't believe in Me and go to hell.'' Jesus might well chose to intervene for someone who didn't believe, and it's none of our business either way.

    It seems to me that God must really like evolutionists. They spend so much time studying his creation, and telling us all how wonderful, and how wonderfully unlikely, it all is. I should think that and a reverent attitude should count for a lot, but see my point in the previous paragraph: we don't know, and probably shouldn't speculate. God told us how we can get to heaven if we want. If He had wanted us to know who wasn't going, He'd have told us that. That information is conspicuously lacking, from the bible and from the fossil records.

    If you've accepted God's grace, and admitted the Holy Spirit into your heart, you're saved. If there is another way to salvation than point 1) above, it is uncertain, and painful, because it precludes having the comfort and love God wants us to enjoy right now. That's probably why He didn't tell us about the other way; He didn't want us to go there.

  46. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SJG's love for creation shines from every book he wrote. He loved life, nature, and justice. Someone who loves those, supposing he gets a look at God and is told "stick around or go away forever," is he not going to stay as close as he can to the author of life, nature, and justice?

  47. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    > SJG's love for creation shines from every book he wrote. He loved life, nature, and justice. Someone who loves those, supposing he gets a look at God and is told "stick around or go away forever," is he not going to stay as close as he can to the author of life, nature, and justice?

    If it's his choice, I think the answer is obvious. Certainly, one of God's dominant characteristics is mercy. Love for us all is another.

  48. I send this to you for your opinion by leonbrooks · · Score: 2

    I suspect that the only reason you haven't been modded through the floor at terminal velocity is because over 90% of the people reading your post don't understand it. (-:

    Personally, I think it's a great comment, and would throw a +1, Insightful at it if I had one.

    SJG understood that Darwinism is broken. His opponents understand that Punctuated Equilibrium is broken. All one needs to do for great enlightenment is to read a prolonged debate between them.

    SJG was far and away a more effective debater than the vast majority of his opponents. He very successfully asserted that religion and science were separate, which if you accept it literally means that religion has no impact on the universe. And what use is that kind of religion? It's a social virus, don't open that attachment!

    His approach when confronted with undeniable sticks-through-the-spokes of any kind of evolution was very Stallmanesque: he'd get grumpy and close the conversation.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
    1. Re:I send this to you for your opinion by y0d4 · · Score: 0

      His approach when confronted with undeniable sticks-through-the-spokes of any kind of evolution was very Stallmanesque: he'd get grumpy and close the conversation. yeah. sounds brilliant...agree with me, or I'll ignore you!!!

  49. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Any place that excludes somebody like Gould does not meet my definition of "heaven."

  50. books by danny · · Score: 2
    Gould wrote some great stuff, though I've only reviewed a few of his books and I've been leaving his last few as a treat for later. I think there's a whole generation of people who acquired an interest in the history of science from Gould - that may ultimately be his greatest influence.

    Danny.

    --
    I have written over 900 book reviews
  51. Full House by akypoon · · Score: 1

    It seems to me that no one mentions Gould's contribution in his book Full House--or why variation should be taken as a measure of excellence rather than median, mode or average.

    I think it should be spoken.

  52. Ironic by Cyberllama · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The local fox station airs two episodes of the Simpsons per day, as I'm sure many local fox affiliates do. Today they aired "Lisa the Skeptic" in which Gould was a guest star. Very strange timing.

  53. non-humorous irony by cr@ckwhore · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Irony is usually humorous in nature, although I believe Mr. Gould was at peace with dying from cancer, given that cancer is one of nature's many ways of balancing species population. Irony? Perhaps.

    --
    Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
    1. Re:non-humorous irony by Tom+Davies · · Score: 3, Informative

      Cancer is not "one of nature's many ways of balancing species population".

      Cancer is a failure of the mechanisms which control cell division. From an evolutionary perspective our bodies have evolved many mechanisms to stop cancer from occurring, because the genes for these mechanisms increased the probability that the body they were in would survive to reproduce.

      These will never be perfect, because random events can defeat these mechanisms, but there is no 'nature' which 'balances' species.

      Tom

      --
      I have discovered a wonderful .sig, but 120 characters is too small to contain it.
    2. Re:non-humorous irony by cr@ckwhore · · Score: 2

      Thank you for your explanation of how cancer works.

      Surely, mother nature doesn't balance the population via magic. Cancer, disease, etc. are just some of the ways.

      Evolution is a constant battle between a species and nature. Nature makes a play against a species, the species will make a play against nature. This occurs when the "un-fit" die, and the "fit" live, carrying traits into the general population of the species that is beneficial in terms of evolution.

      In the instance of cancer, human beings that display resistence to cancer, live, carrying that trait to the general population. Granted these are just simple terms for illustration.

      --
      Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
    3. Re:non-humorous irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are anthropomorphising greatly. There is no 'nature' which fights against us. Just blind forces, random and chaotic events, and other species to compete against.

  54. Re:Gould the Marxist and Atheist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I think you should check on John 3:18
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Before making that kind of statement.
  55. now he knows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ikkkkkkk398iekchdiie0200kidkk

  56. Fuck The Creationists by blakespot · · Score: 2, Funny

    Fuck The Creationists

    Fuck the damn creationists, those bunch of dumb-ass bitches,
    every time I think of them my trigger finger itches.
    They want to have their bullshit, taught in public class,
    Stephen J. Gould should put his foot right up their ass.
    Noah and his ark, Adam and his Eve,
    straight up fairy stories even children don't believe.
    I'm not saying there's no god, that's not for me to say,
    all I'm saying is the Earth was not made in a day.


    blakespot

    --
    -- Heisenberg may have slept here.
    iPod Hacks.com
    1. Re:Fuck The Creationists by elocutio · · Score: 1

      all I'm saying is the Earth was not made in a day.

      Good point. The Earth was made in six days, and on the seventh day, He rested.

    2. Re:Fuck The Creationists by AtaruMoroboshi · · Score: 2



      actually, biblically, the earth was made in a day, it was populated on the other days.

      not that I believe that myth.

    3. Re:Fuck The Creationists by milliwattb · · Score: 1

      An appropriately intelligent remark from one who obviously doesn't understand intelligent design. Some creationists do go overboard, but you only prove ignorance.

  57. This is a discussion of science... by fmaxwell · · Score: 2, Flamebait

    Just like the rest of us, athiests go where God sends them.

    Quit trying to pass of your religious beliefs as factual. Yes, I know that you are CERTAIN that your religious beliefs are correct. The ancient Romans, Vikings, Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Egyptians were just as certain about their religious beliefs.

    Let's stick to science on Slashdot rather than wandering off into occult beliefs about people rising from the dead, or being magically turned into pillers of salt, or living inside of whales, or fitting two of each animal on Earth into a boat, or women being impregnated by invisible, all-powerful beings.

    In 5,000 years, your religious beliefs will get the same level of respect as we give the ancient Chinese belief that eclipses were caused by dragons eating the sun.

    1. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah! but if the "religious" beliefs is correct, you will spend eternity saying to yourself: "Man, I wish I opened my mind and eyes and investigate for myself those "stupid" beliefs"

      You wanna be scientific? ok, answer this:

      1. Where do we come from?
      2. What are we doing here on earth? (What's our purpose of living?)
      3. Where are we going after death?

      None of the ancient "beliefs" that you listed are able to answer these questions in a manner that is relevant to where you are in life as a living-human being in this world today... except *one*!!

      These questions are legitimate "scientific" questions, on top of that, these ones actually matters, these are the ones that give you meaning, security, and hope to keep on living. Are you going to say that *your* life doesn't matter to you?

      You might think you got the answer based on science, but wait until ... how should I say it... when the jello hits the fan? id est, when nothing in your world makes sense (e.g. you lost your job, you can't get another job, you lost a loved one, a disaster strikes, you're diagnosed with a terminal illness, etc.) I would like to see how science can save you.

      PS: I tried to register but I can't, that's why i'm anonymous coward :) but if you would take me on an honest, open-minded discussion about this, bring it on, I will monitor this thread for three days starting today (Monday 5/20/2002).

    2. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, let's do that, rather than wandering off into occult beliefs about how Stphen Gould was somehow a great scientist. Sheesh, you are full of it. Stuff a sock.

    3. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. If there was no "we" that departed, then how can we be coming from anywhere?

      3. If there is no "we" after we depart, then how can we be going anywhere?

      2. If there was no "we" before we departed and there is no "we" after we leave, then who are we?

    4. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok one taker,
      Are you well versed in Zen or something?
      What do you mean by "there is no 'we'" ??

      "We" means the tangible human race, you know, the ones that you see, smell, touch, meet everyday, watch on television, the ones that invented computers...

    5. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm... I'm so full of ... what?
      care to elaborate?

      Cheer up, buddy! let's be open minded.

      PS: Stuffing socks, that might be an interesting passtime, got to try that sometime :) I usually just fold them into themselves, saves storage space, but I guess that's where the running and stretching comes from, huh :)

    6. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what it is that you're full of. But you're full of it.

      The ancient Romans, Vikings, Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Egyptians

      As if you knew any of them. What an utterly disparate list of peoples. About the only thing they have in common is that they're all dead. That and the fact that they somehow relate to the subject at hand in your head.

      In 5,000 years

      As if you will be there. In 5000 years time, what? People will be more like you? Just look at what happened to the Mesapotamians I suppose. See how much sense that makes?

      You are an intelligent fellow. So why are you peddling some dreary piece of received knowledge about the "ancient Romans, Vikings, Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Egyptians". These people exist only in your head. The Aztecs certainly didn't think of themselves as being related to the Greeks or "ancient" in any case. Think for real.

    7. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wherein lies this tangibility? Not an atom in your body with which you were born as a child remains on the day of your death. It is wrong to speak as if we were the ones passing through life. Life is what passes through us.

    8. Re:This is a discussion of science... by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1


      > The ancient Romans, Vikings, Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Egyptians

      As if you knew any of them. What an utterly disparate list of peoples. About the only thing they have in common is that they're all dead. That and the fact that they somehow relate to the subject at hand in your head.


      He didn't say he knew any of them. Nor does he have to. That's your own confusion talking. They have one thing in common, besides being dead, that you missed: they all had an absolutist attitude about their own faiths similar to the perspective that you hold about your own.

      > In 5,000 years

      As if you will be there. In 5000 years time, what? People will be more like you? Just look at what happened to the Mesapotamians I suppose. See how much sense that makes?


      In 5000 years time people will believe in some other goofy superstition that has nothing in common with Christianity, if history is a guide. Your own comments reveal that you are unable to grasp the concept of history being a guide at all.

      You are an intelligent fellow. So why are you peddling some dreary piece of received knowledge about the "ancient Romans, Vikings, Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Egyptians". These people exist only in your head.

      I rest my case.

    9. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they all had an absolutist attitude about their own faiths similar to the perspective that you hold about your own.

      Meaningless nonsense.


      In 5000 years time people will believe in some other goofy superstition that has nothing in common with Christianity, if history is a guide. Your own comments reveal that you are unable to grasp the concept of history being a guide at all.


      Irrelevant. That is not what the original poster said at all.


      I rest my case.


      You'd better.

    10. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Darby · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      You wanna be scientific? ok, answer this:

      1. Where do we come from?
      2. What are we doing here on earth? (What's our purpose of living?)
      3. Where are we going after death?

      None of the ancient "beliefs" that you listed are able to answer these questions in a manner that is relevant to where you are in life as a living-human being in this world today... except *one*!!


      In point of fact all of the beliefs he listed and every other one which he didn't answered those questions with exactly the same accuracy and relevance as yours.

      These questions are legitimate "scientific" questions

      Actually, only #1 is a scientific question. The other two questions are purely philosophical.

      Now you answer #1 and replace "we" with god. Now substitute that answer with "the universe" put back in.
      See how your god adds no information to the issue and merely serves to try and hide your ignorance?

    11. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Nevertheless I am open to the possibility that I might need to cheer up. I was not being very fair.

    12. Re:This is a discussion of science... by nabucco · · Score: 2

      It's frightening to me to see this kind of ignorance on Slashdot. If this is how people who read Slashdot think, the ignorance of the average person in the USA must truly be massive.

      > You wanna be scientific? ok, answer this:
      > 1. Where do we come from?

      We evolved from apes. The universe was created by the big bang. As time goes on, our understanding of these two things grows deeper - we understand more about the similarity between human and ape DNA than we did in Darwin's time for example. I'm sure as time goes on, the big bang theory will be expanded and our understanding will become deeper. It may even change a little - I am certain it will not be changed to that a magic man in the sky created everything, including a talking snake in a garden who had a profound effect on everything.

      > 2. What are we doing here on earth? (What's our purpose of living?)

      Everything we do on earth should be preparation for the "next life" after we die. Uh, wrong. There is no next life, this is it, you can't take it with you. People who spend all of this life in preparation for some next life which won't happen are the real fools. I'm going to enjoy this life while I have it, not worry every minute that I'm not obeying some ministers interpretation of the bible so if I don't obey what he says I might wind up not in "heaven" but in "hell" eternally. People who spend their whole life preparing for something that will never happen instead of enjoying life, and spend every minute worrying over whether they are committing some sexual sin like lust or whatever are big fools. Fools who not only waste their own lives in submission to some fundamentalist leaders dictates, but who try to ruin everyone elses life as well. It's like Mencken said, a Puritan is someone who has "the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy".

      > 3. Where are we going after death?

      We burn in hell eternally if we have pre-marital sex? *We* are going into the ground or having our ashes scattered post-cremation. Our children and their children are going to keep on living however. It's selfish and immoral to only be concerned about yourself, or be like Reagan's fundie Secretary of Interior who said "We don't have to worry about the environment, the day of judgement is at hand". Yes, we do have to worry about the future even after we're gone for our children. We can't live this life obeying some ministers or priests commands which he claims are from his biblical interpretation, in preparation for some "next life" which doesn't exist.

    13. Re:This is a discussion of science... by fmaxwell · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      You wanna be scientific? ok, answer this:

      1. Where do we come from?
      2. What are we doing here on earth? (What's our purpose of living?)
      3. Where are we going after death?


      An inability to answer a question is not proof, or even evidence, of the existence of a deity. We can answer questions now that would have been unfathomable to earlier generations. We can see things with electron microscopes and telescopes that were unthinkable in centuries past. Does the answering of each question make the existence of God less likely?

      These questions are legitimate "scientific" questions,

      The first one might, vaguely be described as scientific (despite its generality and the lack of clarity with which it was phrased). I think evolution does a pretty good job of answering that one.

      on top of that, these ones actually matters, these are the ones that give you meaning, security, and hope to keep on living. Are you going to say that *your* life doesn't matter to you?

      Your questions give a very strong indication of why you (and so many others) have a deep-seated psychological need for religious beliefs. What if there is no divine "purpose" to our existence? What if we don't "go" anywhere after death? What if we simply cease to live, both physically and intellectually, as evidence would suggest?

      Have you ever heard of the scientific method? It doesn't involve choosing to believe in comforting explanations for things that make you uneasy (e.g, your own mortality).

    14. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I know this is Slashdot, but would it be possible to at least acknowledge that you don't know what the heck you're talking about. Why do you believe the universe started with the Big Bang? Do you understand the calculations that led to this theory? Do you have any compelling reason to believe the scientists who make this claim, even though you can't follow any but their most basic arguments? Or maybe you read about it in Popular Science, and it kind of made sense. Do the scientists you so touchingly trust still believe in the Big Bang, or something new? Are all of them atheists?

      It seems like your knowledge of religion came from the same comic book your knowledge of science did. Suffice it to say that the role models in any religion I'm aware of are not people who led their lives fretting about this sin or that, but people who lived fully and did good works for others. I'd be interested to hear evidence to the contrary.

    15. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The scientific method is a wonderful invention, but it cannot answer every question-- particularly questions about the past. The Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe (for example) is just a theory. It does predict some things that seem to be true, and misses on others. Where it misses, adjustments are made to the theory. I don't think most physicists actually believe that the zoo of particle types they've come up with represents any fundamental truth in the universe. It makes for interesting reading for the general public, but most hope lies in some big new theory that will tie up all (or just most) of the disparate loose ends of the current theories. The "big bang theory" label may survive, but what the general public (and hence the overwhelming majority of Slashdot readers, despite their high opinions of their knowledge) and what physicists think it means will remain very far apart. (hint: it doesn't even make sense to ask what it sounded like)

    16. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know this is Slashdot, but would it be possible to at least acknowledge that you don't know what the heck you are talking about. Why do you believe the universe got started by God? Do you understand the calculations that led to this theory? Do you have any compelling reason to believe the scientists who make this claim? Or maybe you read about it in the Bible, and it kind of made sense. Do the scientists you so touchingly trust still believe in God, or something new? Are all of them religious nuts?

      It seems like your knowledge of religion came from the same comic book your knowledge of science did.

    17. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Let me redo that to make it more realistic...


      I know this is Slashdot, but would it be possible to at least acknowledge that you don't know what the heck you are talking about. Why do you believe the universe got started by God? Do you understand the calculations that led to this theory? Do you have any compelling reason to believe the nuts who make this claim? Or maybe you read about it in the Bible, and it kind of made sense. Do the nuts you so touchingly trust still believe in God, or something new? Are all of them religious nuts?

      It seems like your knowledge of religion came from the same comic book your knowledge of science did.

    18. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



      It strikes me odd that ideas and opinions of everyone are not always tolerated in a forum that so readily accepts openness and tolerance. I believe that Dr. Gould would invite debates over issues rather than bait people into ad hominem slurs and non-intellectual scoffs.

      Debate is one of the healthiest muscles of our society, and Dr. Gould advocated the process for his entire academic career. I saw him in debate in 1979, and he was an astounding intellect. It would boost the human condition for us to remember that example.

      The sermon's almost over, but I make one final observation: observing the opinions of others without hypergeneralizing their views is fundamental to rational discourse. To ignore the extremes is to give place to mindless theocracy or to radical dictatorship. It is the very pluralism of voices in which we find our greatest strength.

      </sermon>

    19. Re:This is a discussion of science... by fmaxwell · · Score: 2

      Do you have any compelling reason to believe the scientists who make this claim, even though you can't follow any but their most basic arguments?

      I believe in science because it is peer-reviewed. If a scientist publishes a theory, his peers carefully review his work and either accept it as valid or dismiss it if they discover errors.

      Religion is put to no such test. Everyone of a given faith simply agrees to believe the same things without question or evidence.

      It seems like your knowledge of religion came from the same comic book your knowledge of science did.

      Try to stop being a dick.

    20. Re:This is a discussion of science... by fmaxwell · · Score: 2

      What an utterly disparate list of peoples.

      Yes, that's part of the point.

      About the only thing they have in common is that they're all dead.

      The thing that they all had in common was an absolute belief that their religious beliefs, though wildly different than yours, were absolutely true. I thought that was pretty clear.

      As if you will be there. In 5000 years time, what? People will be more like you? Just look at what happened to the Mesapotamians I suppose. See how much sense that makes?

      You missed the entire point (how, I don't know), so I'll simplify it:

      Each of the peoples named had religious beliefs that they were certain were true. We now look on them as foolish.

    21. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok. It's "feel" not "feal."

    22. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      These questions are legitimate "scientific" questions

      No, they're not, because science cannot answer them.

      these are the ones that give you meaning, security, and hope to keep on living.

      It's a shame that you can't find any other reason to live, like family, friends, seeing the world, improving your mind, ...

    23. Re:This is a discussion of science... by cburley · · Score: 1
      Each of the peoples named had religious beliefs that they were certain were true. We now look on them as foolish.

      Hmm, didn't they look on others as foolish, too?

      If so, doesn't that suggest that the holding of others' views as foolish is, in and of itself, foolish?

      (At least I think it might be foolish, except insofar as such a perspective is, itself, foolish. ;-)

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
    24. Re:This is a discussion of science... by fmaxwell · · Score: 2

      Hmm, didn't they look on others as foolish, too?

      If they were aware of beliefs held by others, then they might have.

      If so, doesn't that suggest that the holding of others' views as foolish is, in and of itself, foolish?

      I don't see that. At any given time in history, most practitioners of any given religion think that those of other, older, faiths are misguided, if not foolish. Suppose the ancient Romans viewed the Egyptian beliefs as foolish. Would they have been wrong? No.

      We do not, as a rule, view now-disproven scientific theories to have been "foolish." Why? Because those theories were based on logic and reasoning. Sure, they were wrong, but that is usually because of limitations in technology, measurements, and the knowledge available at the time.

      The point to all of this is that any belief system based on faith, rather than reasoning and logic, eventually falls into ridicule. In 5,000 years, will Christian beliefs be considered laughable? I don't know, but if history is any indicator of how well religions fare over time, they will be.

    25. Re:This is a discussion of science... by cburley · · Score: 1
      The point to all of this is that any belief system based on faith, rather than reasoning and logic, eventually falls into ridicule.

      I mostly agree, with the following caveat: it is possible that there exists one or more belief systems based on faith that prove to be groundable in reason and logic, i.e. that stand the test of time, with its corresonding improvement in methods of science. In such cases, those systems would not, in and of themselves, fall into ridicule, although the means by which they became accepted might be regarded as, at least, rather amazing to those accustomed to subjecting all belief systems to the scientific method.

      Another "big question", of course, is whether belief in reason and logic is itself a form of faith. Being raised a Christian Scientist, a religion in which three of the seven fundamental definitions, or synonyms, of "God" are "Truth", "Mind", and "Principle", I consider my assumptions based on the predictive capability of reason and logic to, themselves, be projections of faith -- faith that the universe, as I experience it, won't suddenly change (that 2+2 won't suddenly start equaling 3, to pick an absurd example).

      As you might expect, this gives me a somewhat unique view of the atheism vs. religion debate. It strikes me as nonsensical that atheists would, informed of my definition of God, steadfastly disavow the existence of any Truth, Principle, or Mind that is necessary to support their very reliance on principles, truths, and a mind to contain and process them when they make their denials, along with the logic they use to support those denials.

      Therefore, I tend to view atheism as, roughly, the rejection of the more "mystical" elements of what certain religious traditions claim equal God. (These might include the other four synonyms for "God": "Love", "Spirit", "Soul", and "Life", in which case an atheistic denial constitutes only a denial of some attributes of what I consider to be "God".)

      In that sense, I don't find atheism to be, generally, a rejection of God so much as a rejection of certain qualities we experience as being fundamental properties, versus emergent properties, of the universe. (Those emergent properties would include the existence of a species, such as Homo Sapiens, that merely imagines it experiences them, labels them, writes poetry about them, and so on.)

      But this perspective also gives me much amusement when atheists pronounce, as they tend to do, that all religion, or at least all Christian religion, is entirely false, is based on nonscientific reasoning, and so on, when their claims demonstrate ignorance of a substantial component of Christian theology and tradition that is, largely, rational, scientific, and tested. (This component extends well beyond, and historically precedes, the Christian Science "sect", of course.)

      And the reason I find that amusing should be obvious: if atheists are so prone to making pronouncements that demonstrate ignorance of widely-documented and widely-accepted Christian beliefs, how in the world do they expect me to believe their outright statement that God does not exist?

      In that sense, atheism itself may one day be viewed as a "belief system based on faith" that fell into ridicule.

      (Which raises a related question: what is the survival rate and typical historical fate of atheistic civilizations throughout history, given that this thread has already covered religious civilizations?)

      --
      Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
    26. Re:This is a discussion of science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if the "relgious" belief is wrong, when you die you won't be able to reliase that you wasted your whole life worrying if you were sinning because you thought about licking chocolate ice-cream off the breasts of your best friends wife.

      If the "belief" is wrong, I'll be happy with the way I live. BTW, you don't need God to worry about sin, guilt is programmed into your DNA (by God). Quoting your "funny" example, God won't punish you on the spot for doing what you say, your best friend would if he finds out :)

      I don't worry about sinning, in fact I am free to *not* sin. In fact, there's no sin in this world that I can commit that will remove me from where I'm going when I die, isn't that cool?

      And I am espeically not going to try and solace myself by assuming I came from an invisible being who is supposedly all good but allows all sorts of fucked up shit to go on in this world, won't talk to me and supposedly had a son to a teenage unwed virgin and that that son died one day, came back for a weekend and hasn't been heard from since

      This shows that you don't know the core teaching of Christianity. Yet you so bravely accuse God for *allowing* bad things to happen. Do you know God? have you ever read what He said? Have you ever read what this son of a teenage unwed virgin said? Don't quote what you haven't read carefully, it would just expose your attitude, not knowledge. If this is what you call "argumentative skill", it's not much at all!

      Read the Bible once in a while, and you'll realize how silly the stereotypes that you and many people have come to believe.

      Your rapidly approaching "jackass" status in my mind for demonstrating a complete inability to understand what science is about and not possessing any argumentative skills at all. Science doesn't claim to have the answer to everything. I'd love to know why my girlfriend is sucking her roommates cock, but science isn't going to answer that for me. I never thought it would. I don't apporach things scientifically because I think science can answer everything. I approach things scientifically because of all the ways of answering many questions, science does the best at finding the right answer. Even if that means discarding a theory often.

      I'd rather you regard me as a jackass :) so you can be honest about your feelings when you talk to me, after all, you can say anythin to a person that you don't have any respect for, right? But I think you are an intelligent, funny guy. I agree that typically people doesn't think that science can answer everything, but think about it, when the situations that I said happens, what would people who don't believe God do? they would still try to find answers, that's human nature! and since they don't have/believe the concept of divine beings, they run to... science, so in a way, science is their "religion".

      Are you trying to tell me that you think if I were Christian I would know why my girlfriend sucked her roommates cock? Your arrogant. Your god is arrogant. Did she do it because god made her? He's more fucked up than I thought.

      I am sorry about your girlfriend, if you are a Christian and what you're telling me about her is true, then you'd know that you don't need her, why be so bothered? God made her with the ability to make a choice, if she chooses to do what she did, I hope someone is there faithfully pointing out to her that her behavior is wrong. That person might be you, might be others. If you are a Christian, you would know this. See, Christianity answers the problems that pisses you off, something that really matters to you!

      I may be arrogant, heck, I'm still human, but my God is not arrogant, He's SOVEREIGN (look it up in the dictionary, that should give you a glimpse of who He is and where He came from), once again don't say anything about stuff that you haven't study, I dare you to read about Him in the Bible.

      Do you feel consoled believing in something that you have no evidence for? Does it make you feel good about yourself, your life and so on placing all of your faith in an invisible creature that refuses to answer your prayers? If so, great, keep on believing. Keep in mind that you have no evidence for it. And keep in mind that the failure of other explanations does not imply that your explanation is right

      I feel consoled that you take the time to vent your opinions, feelings, to me. That does two things: release you from pent up negative feelings, and allows me to plant a seed that I believe God can use to pull you towards Him. I am just one of many workers, there will be others in your life in many ways you'll never expected. That's how my God works.

      Evidence, only one evidence matters for Christianity. Does Lord Jesus *really* rise from the dead? Over 2000 yrs. millions of people has been trying to prove otherwise. If one of them succeed, Christianity is nothing but fiction.

      Hmm... do you know those Jewish religious leaders that conspired to kill Jesus? they are a bunch of smart dudes, why do you think they haven't pointed us to Jesus's remains with glee if they can find it? Oh they can't find it because the 12 students hide it! Really?? Can you seriously believe that those then 12 good-for-nothing ragtag uneducated "students" of Jesus can outsmart the Jewish religious leaders with Roman government behind them? Besides, the risen body of Jesus *was* seen by more than 500 people, many of those end up in the lion's stomach because the adamantly said that Jesus is risen. Would you die for something that you don't really see? even I, the "jackass", wouldn't.

      You know, one of you problems is that you think you know what I know, how I behave, and what I believe. I never made those assumption towards you. I simply ask questions and you answered, your answer tells me a lot about you.

      Cheers!

  58. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by junkgrep · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Your post should help put to rest the myth that the strongly religious are necessarily more ethical or compassionate.

  59. /mourn by Gailin · · Score: 1

    I don't really have much to add other than what has already been said. Except, goodbye, and thank you for providing such wonderful insights. I know that I have learned and grown a great deal since I first read Gould at 12 years ago. Thank you for playing a part in my development.

    ...

    --
    I wish there was a fscking blue pill
  60. Gou'ould by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hear that he was the the son of Orisis.

    Jaffa, praetak!

  61. I'm sorry I never met him by ColGraff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Damnit. You know, I'd heard of Gould before, never really cared one way or the other about him. I didn't even realize the significance of Gould on that Simpsons episode. But now, reading all these articles on CNN, NYtimes, even /. posts - I really regret the fact I'll never have the chance to take a class taught by this man, or have a one-in-a-million chance to run into him on the street. Why the hell is it that death seems to be the most effective form of publicity for the most interesting people?

    --
    I'm the stranger...posting to /.
    1. Re:I'm sorry I never met him by mithras+the+prophet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You could read one of his books. That's a wonderful way to meet him, so to speak.

      --
      four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
    2. Re:I'm sorry I never met him by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I learned about Feynman the same way.

  62. Flaw in your argument by ColGraff · · Score: 2

    Hawking DID go on the simpsons. Doesn't that suggest the sort of quirky, fun-loving humor that characterizes a "geek"? For that matter, doesn't the betting likewise qualify. Furthermore, I'd point out live interviews are probably a bitch for Hawking - how fast do you think he can type?

    --
    I'm the stranger...posting to /.
    1. Re:Flaw in your argument by MrCreosote · · Score: 1

      Hell, Hawking even made it onto STNG playing poker with Data

      --
      MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
  63. Read Darwin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gould was a populist and a shrewd academic politician, never one to sacrifice approval from the audience to a complicated argument.

    What did Gould bring to the table that Darwin did not already show us? It is no wonder Gould felt he had to distance himself from Darwin. Otherwise people might actually start reading Darwin, and find out that all of Gould's theories are already there.

    To claim Gould's a fraud would be unfair and unrespectful to boot. So let's end this on a positive note: read Darwin.

    1. Re:Read Darwin by shilly · · Score: 1

      1. What, pray tell, has been your contribution to the intellectual achievements of evolutionary biology? In case you've forgotten, Gould was a working scientist as well as a populist. I have no doubt that his was a finer mind, both intellectually and morally, than yours. For instance, in all his published writings, there are no vicious personal attacks on the recently dead, whereas there are in yours.
      2. Gould discussed populism repeatedly throughout his career, and rejected the view that trying to explain difficult concepts to the general public is a challenge that should not be taken up. He tried his best to avoid dumbing down, but he wasn't such an idiot as to confuse technical details with the substance of an argument, nor would he ever deride explanation as a mode of writing for a non-scientific audience, as you do. You can argue that he wasn't successful in this, but frankly, I think you're on to a loser.
      3. He was actually a far better prose stylist than Darwin, whose books, even by the standards of Victorian English literature are turgidly written. However, he had a huge respect for Darwin, and repeatedly urged people to read Darwin's works. I remember his brandishing of a copy of the Origin of the Species when he gave one of the Darwin lectures in Cambridge in 1995. During an electrifying and fascinating talk, he asked everyone to read Darwin's masterwork.
      4. He understood the huge importance of Darwin to modern theories of evolutionary biology, and recognised his own debt. But it takes a peculiar type of idiocy to describe his entire corpus of work as merely derivative.

  64. Where there is death, there is hope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Nah! Gould was a second or third rate scientist, lionized by the literary types because of his facility with words and, what is more important, his left wing politics.

    As far as they (the left wingers) were concerned, Gould was important because his theory of punctuated evolution reconciled evolutionary theory with Marxist revolutionary theory. The previous attempt to bring Marx and Darwin together by the Soviet "scientist" Lysenko, had been an embarrassing failure.

    Now that Gould is gone, and given the anti-scientific attitude of current leftists, I assume that they will revert to explaining everything by appeal to Mumbo-Jumbo God of the Congo.

    1. Re:Where there is death, there is hope. by wytcld · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Gould was important because his theory of punctuated evolution reconciled evolutionary theory with Marxist revolutionary theory. The previous attempt to bring Marx and Darwin together by the Soviet "scientist" Lysenko, had been an embarrassing failure.

      Oh my, now Gould has reconciled the far right with evolution (miracle of miracles) by driving them to find common cause with incremental evolutionists against his punctuated equalibrium.

      Where that goes far wrong, though, is in thinking that Gould believed evolution had anything to do with human society (aside from society being made up of animals who are a product of evolution). His analysis of why Dawkins claims for memes just don't work as an extension of evolutionary theory specifically denies that evolutionary explanations apply within human cultures except as an awkward metaphor (since the types of constraints on the propogation of genes don't apply to memes, the algorithms don't, either). Where his opposition was using metaphors badly and losely, he was insisting on the strict logical formalisms which science requires. So it may be true that the right wing should hate him for pulling the rug out from under social Darwinism; but he was hardly proposing punctuated equilibrium as the model for socialist revolution!
      ___

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    2. Re:Where there is death, there is hope. by Shelled · · Score: 2

      When did Marx become far Right? Of course, after the collapse of Communism. The entire century before he was far the Left's concept of the future of society. Guess the Right can lay claim to Fascism and Marxism now, both extremist ends of the political spectrum. Gotta love those rose colored glasses.

  65. A big loss by SimJockey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow, such a shame he is gone. Have been reading his books for over 10 years, and he is the best I have ever seen at conveying difficult scientific concepts simply. I've often thought that as our society moves towards trusting more and more complex science and technology, the need for informed scientists and engineers who can clearly convey new ideas to the public increases substantially. Despite some cynics who contend the contrary, I believe that the public wants to be informed and engaged in technological decision making. Sadly, I have seen few who can do this well and SJ Gould was one of them.

    Rest in peace Mr. Gould, you truly inspired some of the direction I've taken in my life.

    --
    Laugh while you can, monkey boy!
  66. Reaction from Harvard by SymphonicMan · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Harvard student paper The Harvard Crimson has an article up, and there is also a fairly lengthy obituary on the official Harvard website. One interesting thing to point out for those who have never perused the Harvard catalog is that the Crimson article mentions the two courses Gould taught this past semester at Harvard, and one of them is Science B-16, a course for nonscience concentrators (majors). Good to know that his public mission of helping people understand science was matched by his work inside the university.

    SymphonicMan

  67. Submitted earlier... and rejected: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=32921&cid=3553 518

  68. Bury the man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  69. OT:Strange Coincidence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OT I know, but I am reading a Scifi book entitled Calculating God by Robert J. Sawyer. The main character is a paleontologist who is dying of lung cancer.

    I have heard that cancer is one of the occupational hazards of being around mineral dust.

    I send his family my regards and deepest sympathies.

  70. Mayr shouldn't talk by Jonathan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ernst Mayr is no position to attack Gould seeing how Mayr himself likes to attack (with much more heat than light) molecular evolutionists like Carl Woese. I think the problem is that paleontologists like Gould, zoologists like Dawkins, Smith, and Mayr, and molecular evolutionists like Woese talk three different languages and there is a tendency to assume that all the "important" stuff happens at one's own level of study. A true understanding of evolution must consider all levels of information.

  71. Kuhn and Feyerabend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drawing analogies between scientific and evolutionary progress is more appropriate than one might think.

    Feyerabend, a philosopher of science, argued (rather successfully) that part of good science--and indeed, thought--is allowing for the competition of ideas, no holds barred, letting the best ideas win. Although not all of his ideas are still agreed with, the basic idea that ideas should compete without restraint is.

    Kuhn indirectly or directly demonstrated the importance of sociological processes in scientific progress. We may not like the idea that we like ideas because "they sound good" and they "make us feel good", but very often that is the case in science. The acceptance of scientific theory is often driven by two factors: (1) the extent to which a theory can explain gaps in existing theory, and (2) the extent to which advocates of the theory can politically bully or persuade others to adopt their theory. Kuhn even suggested that the idea of gradual progress in science, accompanied by objective accumulation of logical and empirical truths, is nothing more than a myth.

    There is a great deal of psychology and sociology involved in scientific progress. We might not like to believe it, but it's true. Also, we may have disdain for religious explanation, but the truth is that at some point scientific explanation will be regarded with just as much disdain. All ideas should be evaluated on their merits, with logic and experience, while maintaining awareness of our inevitable biases and emotional preferences.

    1. Re:Kuhn and Feyerabend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the fervour of man to make beauty come true lies redemption.

  72. RIP by Blondito · · Score: 1

    I for one will miss him , no one has been a better public champion against ignorance

    --
    Whoever controls the present controls the past, whoever controls the past controls the future
    1. Re:RIP by milliwattb · · Score: 1

      Try William Dembski. I'm not trying to downplay Gould's significance to neo-Darwinism, but as already stated previously, he was not very well respected in the inner scientific circles. He played for the postmodernist, not the scientist.

  73. sorry, can't help it... by DietProZac · · Score: 1

    Gould was and remains a profound influence on biology."

    Paleontologist... remains...

  74. A dissenting view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I notice that this forum is full of paeans for Professor Gould. Well, I have to say that I agree with Professor Maynard Smith in his assessment, as far as evolutionary theory goes. His general writings I found, for the most part, relentlessly unwitty, irritating, confusing and unenlightening, when not just downright inane and silly.

    It is of course regrettable that he is dead, but I do not think much of his scientific contributions or his popularizing sttempts. I very much doubt that history will hold him in high regard.

  75. Re:Gould the Marxist and Atheist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    dude - go circle jerk the rest of you're fellow christian fundamentalist fuckwads on FR

  76. one of my favorite atheists. by Artifex · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a Christian who doesn't buy Creationism (I believe God created the universe, but "creationism" is hardly the same thing - it takes a literal interpretation of the Bible and adds very nutty presuppositions to make modern ideas about the past sound plausible to people who want to stay blind to science - as if faith can stay faith even if it requires pseudoscience to be bolstered), Carl Sagan, Stephen Jay Gould, and Stephen Hawking have been the contemporary scientists that I have looked up to in order to further my understanding of the physical world. I was hoping to hear live lectures by them all one day, but now only Hawking is left.

    Can anyone name some scientists of the newest generation worth watching, now?

    p.s. Ironically, I was watching a showb about Charles Darwin on PBS a night or two ago (Darwin's Diary?), and Gould was on. I said to myself, "Wow! He's still around." Sigh.

    --
    Get off my launchpad!
    1. Re:one of my favorite atheists. by jtharpla · · Score: 1

      I'm sure Dawkins is still out there somewhere churning out books.

    2. Re:one of my favorite atheists. by Schwarzchild · · Score: 2
      Can anyone name some scientists of the newest generation worth watching, now?

      Sure. A recent book called Bold Science: Seven Scientists Who Are Changing The World by Ted Anton has essays on the following scientists:

      Crain Venter

      Susan Greenfield

      Geoffrey Marcy

      Polly Matzinger

      Saul Perlmutter

      Gretchen Daily

      Carl Woese

      Certainly, I don't think all of these scientists truly are changing the world but a few of them truly do seem to be challenging the boundaries of our knowledge esp. Saul Perlmutter, Geoffrey Marcy and Carl Woese.

      The book is a good though short read.

      --

      "sweet dreams are made of this..."

    3. Re:one of my favorite atheists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >As a Christian who doesn't buy Creationism (I >believe God created the universe, >but "creationism" is hardly the same thing - it >takes a literal interpretation of the Bible and >adds very nutty presuppositions to make modern >ideas about the past sound plausible to people >who want to stay blind to science

      That is up surd! what about www.ICR.org, www.drdino.com or www.reasons.org

      Just because people tent to put everything into a time line and dismiss that which doesn't fit doesn't invalidate the truth!

      *sigh*

  77. Re:We can hope all we want he will RIP but... by Darby · · Score: 2

    Heaven is too hot anyway. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm
    I'll stick to hell where it's much more temperate.


    Very funny link.
    If you had read the whole thing, you would have noticed the second article was a refutation of the first. He ignored pressure in the calculation. So hell is actually much hotter than heaven. Heaven however, in the words of the refuter, "remains deucedly hot"

  78. My plane ride with SJG by Phil+Karn · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I happened to sit next to Stephen Jay Gould on a flight from San Diego to Minneapolis in March 2001. He seemed perfectly healthy, albeit showing his age, so I was quite surprised to see his obituary today.

    After I introduced myself, I told him how much I had enjoyed his guest appearance on The Simpsons. He laughed and said that he still got occasional $20-$30 checks from Fox for residuals for appearing on that show. Not bad for just a few minutes' work, he said.

    Over the Grand Canyon, he had his nose pressed to the window. I couldn't resist. "You know, all that was carved out in just a few days by the Great Flood", I said. He grinned broadly and joined in. "Yeah, just imagine all that water! Wow! Must have been quite a sight!" I kept it going. "Yeah! All that water just appeared out of nowhere, did all that -- but only that -- and just vanished!"

    We talked much of the rest of the flight. He seemed as interested in my work as I was in his. It was definitely one of the more memorable plane rides I've ever had. He's always been one of my heroes for his good-natured ability to stand up to the forces of ignorance and superstition, and having had the chance to talk with him personalizes the great loss that the forces of reason suffered today.

  79. a teacher until the end by jijnasu · · Score: 1

    Gould taught every class until the bitter end. He grew visibly weaker and frailer by the day.
    Still he taught.

    I will never completely understand Gould's scientific impact, but I will always admire his dedication to his students.

  80. One of the best writers I've read by markwelch · · Score: 2
    I was surprised at how much it jarred me to learn of Gould's death today. After all, it was not really a shock or surprise, since he'd written of his diagnosis and earlier remission, and he'd stopped writing his essays last year.

    Ultimately, his death made me realize how much Gould's writing have affected my thinking in the past decade. Quite simply, he was a very good writer, perhaps the best science writer I've had the privilege to read.

    I discovered one of Stephen Jay Gould's books in the early 1990's and was captivated by his unique writing. His essays mostly were about correcting misunderstandings, or reporting on misperceptions in the past or present. His writing made complex subjects seem accessible, and he drew my interest toward topics I would never otherwise have considered. He often used his narrow specialty to shed light on broader human themes.

    Writing about science is usually quite difficult, and until I read Gould's words, I had believed that the subject of paleontology (and any natural history topic of any depth) was beyond my grasp (at least, my interest didn't justify a considerable investment in further education). While very few of Gould's essays are "easy" to read, all are well-crafted and many led me to better understanding and deeper thought. And he even managed to entertain and amuse.

    I've heard a few vicious comments about Gould -- all of them from people I didn't respect. I'm sure Gould made mistakes, and perhaps he slighted some other scientists, and I'm certain that many other science writers must have been jealous of Gould's writing skill and intellectual depth and breadth.

    Gould's words often made clear when his views differed from others. On those rare occasions when I knew enough about a subject to disagree with something Gould's wrote, I still found much to respect in his words.

    Perhaps most important, Gould's essays were never just about natural history: they were most often about human misperceptions, biases, politics, and foibles. Like many great writers, Gould did not just focus on the narrow and often arcane subject matter he selected, but instead used obscure scientific facts and natural history as a lens on broader human themes.

    Don't get me wrong: some of Gould's essays ring quite hollow. Sometimes, he seems to pander. But in one essay out of three, perhaps more, Gould left me thinking and making mental connections for many days or weeks. Is there any greater compliment to any writer, teacher, or friend than to say "he made me think" ?

    If you have not read any of Gould's essays or books, I strongly recommend that you pick up one of his earlier books of collected essays (I particularly recall liking 'Bully for Brontosaurus' and 'The Flamingo's Smile'). This afternoon, I found Gould's most recent collection of essays, 'The Lying Stones of Marrakech,' on the remainder shelf of a bookstore for $5.98 (I bought it, even though I'm only halfway through his prior title).

    Finally, I'd like to point out that the AP obituary of Gould is one of the better-written and well-researched obituaries I've seen recently.

    --
    -- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
  81. Au Contraire -- scientists are the most dogmatic by MickLinux · · Score: 1

    ... of the lot. Take a look at the posts *attacking* Gould vs. *supporting* him. Or, take a look at how the different theories -- volcanos, KT-layer, and such. The scientists don't change their views to match the evidence, rather, they just die off. And one of the biggest factors in what is populer among the "new" theories is people like J. Gould, and the BBC / PBS educational system. All that would be fine, if truth were addressed. But one of the things about BBC / PBS is that they do very little fact checking. Not too long ago, we were watching a very impressive documentary about a volcano that exploded in the area of Indonesia in the 1300s, and how it caused a great cold spell as far away as Scotland (thermonuclear-type winter). There were legends among the Chinese about a dragon and a roar, and a darkening of the sky... and there were lots of quotes. Well, quote after quote, my father kept saying, "that's not correct..." and then he said "wait. " He went and got a magazine that was specifically quoted, opened it up, rewound the tape, and then contrasted how the show gave the exact opposite statement from the magazine it "quoted". All nicely done in the *form* of a scientific documentary, but nothing but claptrap dogma. Unfortunately, these shows drive people to become members of one "scientific community" or another, but it leaves them with dogmatic feelings about falsehoods as if they were true.

    --
    Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
  82. Missed the point? by ImaLamer · · Score: 2

    That was kind of my point.

    I've read Sagan, non-fiction, and even there his atheist has come through. My point though was that they were two that studied and wrote about evolution and other theories that are contrary to major religious beliefs. Sagan's book (with Ann Druyan) Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors is one which can convert some of the highest believers.

    The irony of the statement is that they were wrong yet are offering advice to the "designer". I'm not saying they were wrong... I'm saying it would be ironic.

    It wasn't my need to feel better - it was my celebration of their ideas that challenged the idea of god(s).

    I don't write cartoons - I can't draw. I could care less about Princess Di and I'm not Catholic and a idea of a "Saint" is disturbing. Occam's a fag, the easiest explination is the laziest - even Sagan admited that and quoted others who discouraged parsimonious ideas. Their beliefs aren't mine. The End.

  83. So What? by Hideyoshi · · Score: 1, Interesting

    So what if Gould had criticized The Adapted Mind? How does that make John Maynard Smith's criticisms any less trenchant? All you've done here is attempt an ad-hominem attack, as you have no way of knowing what was in Maynard Smith's mind when he wrote his critique.

    The truth of the matter is that John Maynard Smith is right, and he is not the only one to have made the criticisms of Gould that he did. Gould's mischaracterization of Maynard Smith, Dawkins and E.O. Wilson (who I am no fan of, given his appeals to authority to dismiss Bjorn Lomborg) was blatantly egregious to anyone who bothered to actually read what these individuals had written.

    Furthermore, Gould's theory of 'punctuated equilibrium' was by no means the gigantic paradigm shift that he sought to make it out to be, while his and Richard Lewontin's attacks on 'reductionism' were straw-man arguments blatantly motivated by their left-wing politics, which Gould and Lewontin went out of their way to make clear.

    Stephen Jay Gould was a wonderful writer, and I am saddened to hear of his death, but I am inclined to agree that he was more a creator of interesting fictions than he was a serious scientist.

  84. Adieu Steve by Michael Shermer by Two+(2)+Sheds · · Score: 1

    Michael Shermer of Skeptic Magazine and the Skeptic Society (Skeptic.com) sent this essay to the email list he runs. ADIEU STEVE

    By now almost everyone has heard about the death of Stephen Jay Gould. My phone has been ringing all day so tonight is the first moment I've had to sit and think about the meaning of Gould's life and death. I won't bother here with the basic details of his life, which can be found at www.nytimes.com/2002/05/21/obituaries/21GOUL.html.

    Instead I'll provide some general commentary along with a few excerpts from a forthcoming paper I have written analyzing Gould's work.

    Steve told me about this latest bout with cancer back in March, and I was amazed at his stamina and strength when, after having brain surgery on Monday, May 1, I spoke with him at his home in Cambridge four days later. He had just finished giving a lecture at Harvard! This cancer was a totally different type than the one he had back in the early 1980s. He was symptom free and went in for a routine check-up in February when they discovered a couple of masses in his lungs. Further investigation revealed that he also had tumors in his brain, and "something going on with the liver," he said. As he characteristically told me back then, "we're still in the data-collection stage, no conclusions yet." Spoken like a true scientist.

    Steve seemed hopeful the past couple of months, but I could hear in his mother's voice the past few weeks that the end was coming soon. We can only rejoice in the fact that he lived long enough to see his magnum opus, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, published and widely reviewed. Still, his death was something of a shocker because I just spoke with his family on Saturday morning, and they were bringing him home that afternoon to spend the rest of his days there. I got the impression that there were weeks to go. As Gould himself might have said, life is so very fragile and contingent.

    Gould was so famous that when asked to do something that he could not, he would send out the following form letter, which I myself received in 1988 before I knew him very well. (He later became a friend and huge supporter of Skeptic magazine, and he wrote a brilliant essay as a foreword for my book Why People Believe Weird Things.) The rejection note is written in vintage Gouldian style:

    "I can only beg your indulgence and ask you to understand an asymmetry that operates cruelly (since it produces tension and incomprehension) but that leads to an ineluctable (however regrettable) result. The asymmetry: you want an hour or two, perhaps a day, of my time--not much compared to what you think I might provide (exaggerated, I suspect, but I won't struggle to disillusion you). From that point of view, I should comply--not to do so could only be callousness or unkindness on my part. But now try to understand my side of the asymmetry: I receive on average (I promise that I am not exaggerating) two invitations to travel and lecture per day, about 25 unsolicited manuscripts per month asking for comments, 20 or so requests for letters of recommendation per month, about 15 books with requests for jacket blurbs. I am one frail human being with heavy family responsibilities, in uncertain health and with a burning desire (never diminished) to write and research my own material. Thus, I simply cannot do what you ask. I can only beg your understanding and extend to you my sincere thanks for thinking of me."

    I wrote a chapter on Punctuated Equilibrium ("The Paradox of the Paradigms") in The Borderlands of Science, and one on Gould's emphasis on contingency in evolution ("Glorious Contingency") in How We Believe. There is an interview with Gould in Skeptic, Vol. 4, #1. I thought I would share with you an excerpt from a paper I have written on Gould's work, soon to be published in Social Studies of Science, entitled "This View of Science: Stephen Jay Gould as Historian of Science and Scientific Historian." It is an attempt to tease out deeper meaning on Gould's work through a quantitative content analysis of his writings. The original material for this was compiled for the Festschrift we held for Gould at Caltech last year. This is the section on his 300 consecutive essay streak in Natural History magazine (figures not included). Enjoy.

    And adieu Steve. We'll miss you.

  85. John Katz of biology by peter303 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Says something interesting now and then, but writes way too much. Ignore after a while.

    1. Re:John Katz of biology by ElvenSmith · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      LOL!! that was funny..yeah kinda like that.. i mean some of these guys write maybe 3 really exciting books out of a total career of 300..the rest are all rehashes.. kind of like Deepak Chopra..tons of popular books..all flighty and intense yet lightweight..nothing refreshingly new from book to book..

  86. Death Bed Conversion by paiute · · Score: 1

    How long before we begin to see the "Gould recanted evolution and embraced Jesus on his death bed" stories?

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    1. Re:Death Bed Conversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know, but I wonder where SJG is now? It's a shame that he couldn't write a book about the post-mortem experience.

    2. Re:Death Bed Conversion by milliwattb · · Score: 1

      I doubt he was open-minded or smart enough to actually investigate Jesus.

    3. Re:Death Bed Conversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stephen Jay Gould finally knows the TRUTH ...

      "In THE Beginning God ..."

      However, the TRUTH leaves Stephen naked as a Jay bird for his fool's Gould and the flames of hell won't get any cooler.

      Stephen Gould's latest pronouncement:

      Aaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

  87. Re:90 percent also believe... by mkoenecke · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Re: "It's selfish and immoral to only be concerned about yourself, or be like Reagan's fundie Secretary of Interior who said "We don't have to worry about the environment, the day of judgement is at hand". Yes, we do have to worry about the future even after we're gone for our children."

    What I find amusing is an atheist calling something "immoral," thereby adopting tenets of theism without thinking. Without God, there is no morality: only situational advantage, and it is illogical and senseless to "have to worry about the future." There is no reason to be moral/nice/kind to one's fellow man apart from a perceptible advantage gained; if you cannot identify the exact advantage, you are acting illogically. Atheism, if carried to its logical conclusion, inexorably leads to nihilism.

    --
    TANSTAAFL
  88. Catch him on Charlie Rose today... by freeBill · · Score: 2

    ...if your local PBS station reruns last night's shows the following day. (Many do, often sometime around noon local time.)

    Excerpts of four of Gould's many appearances on the show were compiled into a "Remembering Stephen Jay Gould" segment, which mentions a number of his books.

    --
    Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
  89. Re:90 percent also believe... by fmaxwell · · Score: 2

    What I find amusing is an atheist calling something "immoral," thereby adopting tenets of theism without thinking.

    Untrue. I can have a code of ethics (or "morals") because I do not want to cause emotional distress and hardship for other human beings. That does not imply or require a belief in a diety.

    If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. --Albert Einstein

  90. Re:SOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reminds me of Fuck the Middle East by S.O.D. (Stormtroopers of Death)
    That ruled, and it was done back in 1985.
    Plus ca change...

  91. "The Accidental Creationist" by Baldrson · · Score: 2
    Although on it's own web page the essay that follows deserves archival with this /. obituary of Stephen Jay Gould if for no other reason than Gould held the position as head of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and, from that public position, left a legacy that seriously damaged the public's grasp of science:

    This essay originally appeared in The New Yorker, Dec. 13, 1999. It is adapted from chapters 19 and 20 of Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny , by Robert Wright, published by Pantheon Books in 2000 and by Vintage Books in 2001. Copyright 2000 by Robert Wright. (Please note that a central argument of the New Yorker essay--that biological evolution is directional, and Stephen Jay Gould's argument to the contrary is deeply flawed--is made in much greater detail in chapter 19 of the book.)

    THE ACCIDENTAL CREATIONIST

    Why Stephen Jay Gould is bad for evolution.

    BY ROBERT WRIGHT

    FOUR months ago, when the Kansas Board of Education voted to cut evolution from the mandatory science curriculum, few people were more outraged than Stephen Jay Gould. Teaching biology without evolution is "like teaching English but making grammar optional," Gould said. The Kansas decision reeked of "absurdity" and "ignorance" and was a national embarrassment. The question of whether to teach evolution "only comes up in this crazy country," he told an audience at the University of Kansas after the decision.

    All of this is more or less true. But it's also true that, over the years, Gould himself has lent real strength to the creationist movement. Not intentionally, of course. Gould's politics are secular left, the opposite of creationist politics, and his outrage toward creationists is genuine. Yet, in spite of this stance and, oddly, in some ways because of it he has wound up aiding and abetting their cause.

    This indictment of Gould will no doubt surprise his large reading public. After all, in addition to being America's unofficial evolutionist laureate, Gould is a scientist of sterling credentialsa Harvard paleontologist and, currently, the president of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. In what more capable hands could the defense of science rest?

    This indictment will also surprise many evolutionary biologists, but for different reasons. It isn't that they necessarily consider Gould a great scientist; a number of insiders take a quite different view. But they do generally think of him as a valiant warrior against the creationist hordes. The eminent British biologist John Maynard Smith has observed, "Gould occupies a rather curious position, particularly on his side of the Atlantic. Because of the excellence of his essays, he has come to be seen by nonbiologists as the preeminent evolutionary theorist. In contrast, the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists."

    In truth, though, Gould is not helping the evolutionists against the creationists, and the sooner the evolutionists realize that the better. For, as Maynard Smith has noted, Gould "is giving nonbiologists a largely false picture of the state of evolutionary theory."

    Over the past three decades, in essays, books, and technical papers, Gould has advanced a distinctive view of evolution. He stresses its flukier aspectsfreak environmental catastrophes and the like and downplays natural selection's power to design complex life forms. In fact, if you really pay attention to what he is saying, and accept it, you might start to wonder how evolution could have created anything as intricate as a human being.

    As it happens, creationists have been wondering the very same thing, and they're delighted to have a Harvard paleontologist who will nourish their doubts. Gould is a particular godsend to the more intellectual anti-evolutionists, who mount the sustained (and ostensibly secular) critiques that give creationism a veneer of legitimacy. In attacking Darwinian theory, they don't have to build a straw man; Gould has built one for them. When Phillip E. Johnson, the most noted of these writers, begins a sentence, "As Stephen Jay Gould describes it, in his fine book," this is not good cause for Gould to swell with pride.

    Gould also performs a more subtle service for creationists. Having bolstered their caricature of Darwinism as implausible, he bolsters their caricature of it as an atheist plot. He depicts evolution as something that can't possibly reflect a higher purpose, and thus can't provide the sort of spiritual consolation most people are after. Even Gould's recent book "Rocks of Ages," which claims to reconcile science and religion, draws this moral from the story of evolution: we live in a universe that is "indifferent to our suffering."

    Obviously, if the grounds for this conclusion are as firm as he says, then we have to live with it. But they're not. Though modern Darwinism is incompatible with various religious beliefs (such as a literal interpretation of Genesis), it needn't alienate religious seekers of a liberal-minded variety: those with no attachment to any scriptural creation scenario but with a suspicionor, at least, a hopethat life has more meaning than meets the eye. Indeed, the Darwinian account of our creation, once stripped of the misconceptions that Gould has covered it with, is not only compatible with a higher purpose but vaguely suggestive of one.

    All the favors that Gould unwittingly performs for creationists can be traced to his thinking on the fundamental issue of "directionality," or "progressivism"that is, how inclined evolution is (if at all) to build more complex and intelligent animals over time.

    Consider the bombardier beetle. In one compartment, the beetle carries a harmless chemical mix. In another compartment resides a catalyst. The beetle adds the catalyst to the mix to create a scalding substance that he can then spray, through a pliable rear-end nozzle, on tormentors. (This basic ideamaking chemicals safe to transport but deadly when deployedwould, long after natural selection invented it, be reinvented by human beings, in the form of binary chemical weapons.)

    Clearly, a beetle equipped with two munitions tanks and a spray nozzle is more complex than a beetle lacking such accoutrements. And this isn't just any old kind of biological complexity. The beetle's arsenal involves behavioral complexity: aiming and squirting a toxic nozzle. Aiming and squirtinglike any impressive behaviorinvolves information processing, a command-and-control system. In some small measure, then, evolution's promotion of the beetle to bombardier rank involved a growth in intelligence. In other lineages, the evolution of intelligenceof behavioral complexityhas proceeded further. And we have binary chemical weapons, among other things, to show for it.

    WAS this general trend in the cards? Or is the growth in complexity and intelligence we've seen on this planet more or less an accident, something that doesn't flow from basic properties of natural selection?

    Ten years ago, Gould's position on the directionality issue was extreme: he didn't even concede that biological complexity has tended to grow over time. This reluctance, evident in his book "Wonderful Life" (1989), was harshly criticized (by me, for one), and he has since abandoned it. (Full disclosure: I made the criticism in an unfavorable review of Gould's book, and he has since written unfavorable things about my work.) In his more recent assault on directionality, the 1996 book "Full House," Gould allows that the outer envelope of complexitythe complexity of the most complex species aroundmay tend to grow. For that matter, he acknowledges, the average complexity of all species may have grown. But he insists that this growth does not constitute "progress" because it is fundamentally "random."

    [Author's note: Since this essay was published in The New Yorker, I've noticed that some readers misinterpret my critique of Gould's emphasis on "randomness." The issue is not whether new genes are generated randomly--a question on which Gould and I agree. The issue is whether the process by which genes are selectively preserved is just as likely to move organic complexity downward as upward (Gould's position) or whether that process will more often move complexity upward (my position). In other words: if you think I am departing from standard Darwinian theory, and positing the existence of "orthogenesis" or any other quasi-mystical force, you have misunderstood my argument.]

    To explain what he means by "random," Gould uses the metaphor of "the drunkard's walk." A drunk is heading down a sidewalk that runs east-west. Skirting the sidewalk's south side is a brick wall, and on the north side is a curb and a street. Will the drunk eventually veer off the curb, into the street? Probably. Does this mean he has a "northerly directional tendency"? No. He's just as likely to veer south as north. But when he veers south the wall bounces him back to the north. He is taking "a random walk" that just seems to have a directional tendency.

    If you get enough drunks and give them enough time, one of them may eventually get all the way to the other side of the street. That's us: the lucky species that, through millions of years of random motion, happened to get to the far north, the land of great complexity. But we didn't get there because north is an inherently valuable place to be. If it weren't for the brick wallthat is, the fact that no species can have less than zero complexitythere would be just as many drunks south of the sidewalk as north of it, and the randomness of all their paths would be obvious. Gould writes, "The vaunted progress of life is really random motion away from simple beginnings, not directed impetus toward inherently advantageous complexity."

    What Gould neglects is a number of nonrandom factors that fall under the rubric of "positive feedback." The bombardier beetle is a good example. Since there was a time when beetles didn't exist, there must have been a time when no animals were specially adapted to kill and eat them. Then beetles came along, and then various animals did acquire, by natural selection, the means to kill and eat them. This growth in behavioral complexity spurred a response: the beetle's binary weapon. Thus does complexity breed complexitypositive feedback.

    One might expect that, given enough time, beetle predators would up the ante, developing some clever way to neutralize the beetle's noxious spray. In fact, they have. Skunks and one species of mouse, the biologists James Gould (no relation) and William Keeton have written, "evolved specialized innate behavior patterns that cause the spray to be discharged harmlessly, and they can then eat the beetles." Evolutionary biologists call this form of positive feedback an "arms race." Richard Dawkins and John Tyler Bonner, among others, have noted that arms races favor the evolution of complexity. Yet Gould's two books on the evolution of complexity don't even mention the phenomenon.

    Finding evidence of arms races in the fossil record is tricky. But Harry Jerison, a paleoneurologist at U.C.L.A., measured the remnants of various mammalian lineages spanning tens of millions of years and discerned a suggestive pattern. In North America, the "relative brain size" of carnivorous mammals - brain size in proportion to body size - showed a strong tendency to grow over time. So did the relative brain size of the herbivorous mammals that were their prey. Meanwhile, comparable South American herbivores, which faced no predators, showed almost no growth in relative brain size. Apparently, ongoing species-against-species duels are conducive to progress.

    Arms races can happen within species, not just between them. For example, male chimps spend lots of time scheming to top each other. They form coalitions that, on attaining political dominance, get prime sexual access to females. So savvy males should, on average, get the most genes into the next generation, raising the average level of savviness. And, the savvier the average chimp, the savvier chimps have to be to excel in the next round. There'slittle doubt that this arms race has helped make chimps as smart as they are, and there's no clear reason that the process should stop now.

    Yet natural selection, as described by Gould, has no room for such a dynamic. "Natural selection talks only about adaptation to changing local environments," he writes. And "the sequence of local environments in any one place should be effectively random through geological time the seas come in and the seas go out, the weather gets colder, then hotter, etc. If organisms are tracking local environments by natural selection, then their evolutionary history should be effectively random as well."

    This would be good logic if environments consisted entirely of sea and air. But a living thing's environment consists largely of other living things: things it eats and things that eat it, not to mention members of its own species which compete and consort with it. And no one not even Gould denies that the average complexity of all species constituting this organic environment tends to grow. Nor would it matter if we assumed, along with Gould, that back at the dawn of life the growth in average complexity was wholly random. The fact would remain that, for whatever reason, environmental complexity started to grow. Species, in "tracking" this growth of complexity, can't be described as stumbling around randomly. Their evolution is directional. And since they are part of the environment of other species the process is self-reinforcing. More positive feedback.

    The evolution of human intelligence has the earmarks of positive feedback. To the extent that we can judge from an imperfect fossil record, the growth in brain size from Australopithecus africanus through Homo habilis, Homo erectus, and early Homo sapiens to modern Homo sapiensis fairly brisk, with no signs of backtracking and little in the way of pauses. This suggests three million years of pretty persistent brain expansion.

    In Gould's world view, the only way to explain this trend is as a long series of lucky coin flips - the most serendipitous drunken walk in the history of drinking. And it isn't just our ancestors, in Gould's scheme, who were so lucky. Mammalian lineages broadly exhibit movement toward braininess.

    The odds of all this happening by luck alone, as Gould would have it, seem to me not that different from the odds that God created all species in a few days. By the basic criterion of scientific judgment - that the most plausible story wins - it's roughly a tie. So, as long as Gould's version of evolution dominates popular understanding, why should the average school-board member find one theory beyond serious doubt and the other unworthy of mention? Neither fits the facts.

    Gould recognizes that his story is an unlikely one. If you replayed evolution on this planet, he says, the chances of getting any species as smart as humans - smart enough to reflect on itself - are "extremely small." In fact, he fairly delights in the prospect that "we are, whatever our glories and accomplishments, a momentary cosmic accident that would never arise again if the tree of life could be replanted from seed and regrown under similar conditions." To insist otherwise, to see evolution as a natural progression toward intelligent forms of life, is to indulge a "delusion" grounded in "human arrogance" and desperate "hope."

    This is where Gould's aims, perversely, converge with those of the creationists: both, for their own philosophical reasons, want to depict the evolution of a human level of intelligence as spectacularly unlikely. But what, exactly, is Gould's philosophical reason? Why is he so chipper about our creation's being an aimless and pointless process? The answer lies in Darwinism's checkered political past.

    Early in this century, biological progressivism was dear to the hearts of social Darwinists, who used evolution to justify racism, imperialism, and a laissez-faire indifference to poverty. Part of the logic behind social Darwinism - to the extent that it had a coherent logic - was something like the following: The suffering, even death, of the weak at the hands of the strong is an example of "survival of the fittest." And surely the "survival of the fittest" has God's blessing. After all, He built the dynamic into His great creative process, natural selection. And how do we know that natural selection is God's handiwork? Because of its inexorable tendency to create organisms as majestic as ourselves, organisms worthy of admission to Heaven. In short, biological progressivism was used to deify nature in all its aspects, and nature, thus deified, was invoked in support of oppression.

    This variant of social Darwinism - which infers political and moral values from the direction of evolution - has been essentially dead for a long time, but for Gould it is still an ever-present enemy. His denunciations of progressivism often include dark allusions to the political values that accompanied it in the early twentieth century. His war against progressivism, it seems, is waged partly to vanquish a religious right that died out long ago. Yet the effect of the war isto give aid and comfort to a new religious right.

    Anti-progressivism is the grand unifying theme in Gould's oeuvre. To the lay reader, he may seem a man of many theories, but, time and again they amount to the argument that natural selection, far from being a tireless engineer of organic improvement, is actually an erratic agent that is often swamped by outside factors, and so cant be counted on to push evolution upward. Hence his championing of "punctuated equilibrium"the idea that evolution proceeds in fits and starts, and spends much of its time moving nowhere in particular. Hence, too, his insistence that many parts of plants and animals are not "adaptations" (things designed by natural selection for a particular purpose) but "spandrels" (incidental by-products of past evolution which may happen to serve a function but weren't originally "selected" for that function).

    Neither of these claims is wholly wrong. Both - in moderate form, at least--were embraced by some Darwinians before Gould came along and applied new labels to them. But Gould bills these retreads as fresh and radical, and his rhetorical extravaganzas then become priceless assets for creationists. In depicting himself as the torch carrier for "a new and general theory of evolution," he once declared standard Darwinian theory--the so-called modern synthesis that had crystallized by mid-century - "effectively dead, despite its persistence as textbook orthodoxy." Not surprisingly, this sound bite is endlessly repeated by such writers as Michael Denton, whose book "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis" is a favorite of creationists.

    Gould was widely criticized for pronouncing Darwinism dead, and he has long since qualified the claim. But the fact remains that he made the statement, it was silly, and it had consequences. When an interviewer asked Phillip Johnson how he came to suspect that Darwinism lacked scientific merit, he said that reading Gould's claim had been a formative experience. Gould's writings on punctuated equilibrium have been a particular gift to creationists. He dwells on gaps in the fossil record to argue that evolution works fitfully; creationists then quote him to argue that it doesn't work at all. (They love the conspiratorial aura of Gould's description of these gaps as the "trade secret of paleontology.")

    Obviously, we can't hold scholars strictly responsible for how their words are used. There are lots of gaps in the fossil record, and though many biologists believe that Gould cites the record too selectively, it isn't his fault when creationists quote him dishonestly, as they sometimes do. The problem is that often they don't have to. The biochemist Michael Behe writes, in the anti-evolutionist text "Darwin's Black Box," "Gould has argued that the rapid rate of appearance of new life forms demands a mechanism other than natural selection for its explanation." Gould does say that, when he depicts punctuated equilibrium as a mayor new concept, requiring "additional laws," beyond natural selection.

    This particular excess has drawn criticism from Gould's mentor, the renowned biologist Ernst Mayr. In his book "Toward a New Philosophy of Biology" Mayr insists that any plausible version of punctuated equilibrium is "completely consistent" with the modern Darwinian synthesis, and that the engine of change in punctuated equilibriumis natural selection. Mayr should know. He, more than anyone else, created the theory of punctuated equilibrium, decades before Gould gave it that catchy title.

    Of all the Gouldian themes cherished by Darwinism's detractors, perhaps the most interesting is one publicized by Johnson in the early nineteen-nineties, in an Atlantic Monthly essay and in his book "Darwin on Trial." Johnson's argument began with the accurate observation that species often go extinct because of what you might call bad luck, not bad genes. For example, a meteor may strike and trigger an environmental cataclysm, wiping out thousands of species that, only the day before, seemed ideally suited to life on earth.

    Johnson then asked: If which genes perish is so often determined randomly, how could natural selection work well? Isn't the idea supposed to be that, while genetic traits are generated randomly, they are weeded out selectively, depending on whether they are "fit"?

    That is indeed how natural selection designs fit organisms. But, according to mainstream Darwinian theory, most of the consequential weeding out doesn't happen conspicuously and suddenly, when whole species go extinct; it happens on a day-to-day basis within a species, as some individuals fail to spread their genes as ably as other individuals. So even if every few hundred million years a meteor strikes, wiping out lots of well-designed species, other well designed species remain, and the design work continues.

    Maybe Johnson's mistake was to use Gould as a source. Gould has repeatedly stressed the randomness of great species extinctions, and emphasized selection among species, while underplaying day-to-day selection within species. Indeed, Johnson's book cited Gould on all three of those themes. ("As usual," he wrote, "Gould is the most interesting commentator.")

    RANDOM extinctions are a central theme of Gould's book "Wonderful Life." In using them to assault the notion of evolutionary progress, he took a different tack from Johnson's, but in the end he was no more successful.

    The book is about the fossils of the Burgess Shale, products of an apparently sudden (as these things go) expansion of biological diversity around five hundred and seventy million years ago, at the beginning of the Cambrian Period. The subsequenthistory of the Shale animals, Gould argued, illustrates how radically bad luck can alter evolution's course. In particular, some very weird-looking Shale creatures had fallen prey to an essentially random mass extinction, and left no descendants. If not for this bad break, today's tree of life would presumably look very different.

    Since Gould's book was published, his interpretation of these fossils has been challenged by a number of paleontologists. It now seems that the Burgess Shale animals weren't nearly so weird as Gould and some other researchers first thought; many fit readily into a standard taxonomic tree, and their descendants are with us still. In the case of a fossil so bizarre-looking that it was named Hallucigenia, Gould--following the then-prevailing interpretationseems to have been looking at it upside down. Those baffling squiggly things on its "back" were legs. And those strangely spiky"legs" were spikes--armor, presumably the product of an arms race.

    Still, Gould's premise is valid. Whether or not the Burgess Shale animals are a case in point, species do go extinct because of cosmic rolls of the dice. A meteor shows up and - poof!--no dinosaurs. But Gould's argument from this premise blurs the line between two separate issues: the question of whether a given species was likely to evolve and the question of whether the properties it embodies were likely to evolve.

    For example, if our ancestors had been wiped out through bad luck, then, as Gould has repeatedly proclaimed, human beings would never have evolved. This point - in some ways the central point of "Wonderful Life" - is so unarguable that, as far as I know, it has never been argued against. No sober biologist would claim that there was some kind of inexorability to the evolution of Homo sapiens per se: a species five or six feet tall with ear lobes, bad jokes, and all the rest. The question is whether the evolution of some form of highly intelligent life was likely all along. In his first book on directionality, Gould simply skirted the question; in the second, he declared the answer to be no. The problem with this answer goes beyond Gould's overlooking arms races. The broader issue is what you might call natural selection's genius.

    Though natural selection is a blind process that works by trial and error - and random trial, at that - it has a remarkable knack for invention, for finding and filling empty niches. It doesn't just invent great technologies; it keeps reinventing them. Flight and eyesight are two properties so amazing that creationists cite them for their implausibility. Yet flight has arisen through evolution on at least three separate occasions, and eyes have developed independently dozens of times.

    Eyes are so favored by natural selection because light is a terrific medium of perception. It moves in straight lines, bounces off solid things, and travels faster than anything in the known universe. But smell, sound, touch, and taste are also amply represented in the animal kingdom, and are just the beginning of a long list of organic data-gathering technologies.

    Indeed, humankind's vaunted twentieth-century advances in sensory technology seem almost like a long exercise in reinventingthe wheel. We now have infrared sensors for night vision; rattlesnakes beat us to that one. We use sonar - old hat to bats and dolphins. Someburglar alarms work by creating electric fields and sensing disturbances in them; so do some fish, such as the elephant-snout fish of Africa.

    Why is natural selection so attentive to sensory technologies? Because they facilitate adaptively flexible behavior. And what else does that? The ability to process all this sensory data and adjust behavior accordingly. In other words: brains - that is, intelligence as an abstract property. It is natural selection's demonstrable affinity for certain properties - its tendency to invent them and nurture them independently in myriad species - which renders trivial Gould's truism about how bad luck can wipe out any one species or group of species. The fates of particular species may depend on the luck of the draw. But the properties they embody were in the cards - at least, in the sense that the deck was stacked heavily in their favor.

    Consider some properties of human intelligence which are often taken as defining assets of our species, such as language and the inventive use of tools. Though no species is nearly as accomplished as ours in either realm, primitive versions of these features are widespread.

    The most obvious examples of tool use come from our close relatives, chimpanzees. Chimps pound nuts open with sticks and stones. They take twigs, strip them of leaves, poke them into termite nests, then pull them out and eat the termites. Some chimps even use sticks to brush each other's teeth. This sort of thing doesn't seem to be narrowly programmed by the genes. There is innovation and then emulation. In other words, there is cultural evolutionthe selective transmission of nongenetic information from animal to animal.

    Animals also can be surprisingly articulate. East African vervet monkeys have several warning calls, depending on the predator: one means "snake," one means "eagle," and one means "leopard," and each elicits an apt response (looking down, looking up, or running into the bush). Mastery of this language takes cultural fine-tuning. Young vervets may look up, see a pigeon, and give the "eagle" call. Adults then look up and, by failing to join in the call, induce an enlightening chagrin.

    Of course, no nonhuman species is about to embark on the sort of cultural evolution that got us from the Stone Age to the sophisticated technology of the information age. None of these animals could possibly formulate a message as complex as "Have you tried just turning it off and then turning it on again and seeing if that solves the problem?"

    Still, they may not be as far from that utterance as they seem. For at some point, with the accumulation of tools and other forms of culture, culture itself can become an accelerator of genetic evolution. As those individuals best at manipulating culture reproduce more successfully than their neighbors, genes for deft intellect spread faster. This, in turn, speeds up cultural evolution, which further speeds up genetic evolution, and so on: yet another form of progressive evolution via positive feedback. In our lineage, this "co-evolution" of genes and culture may have acquired momentum with the first handcrafted stone tools, more than two million years ago, when the brains of our ancestors were only half the size of modern brains.

    Many biologists believe that human social organization has also favored genes for intelligence. Our species, for example, has "reciprocal altruism." We are designed to feel warmly toward people who do favors for us, to return the favors, and thus to forge mutually beneficial relationshipsfriendships. What's more, one kind of favor we swap is social support. That is, we are a "coalitional" species; groups compete with each other for status and influence. Reciprocal altruism takes brainpowerto remember who has helped you and who has hurt you. And the coalitional variety takes more brainpower, since strategic plotting and communication among allies are vital.

    Here again, the basic ingredients are not peculiar to us. Vampire bats have reciprocal altruism; they'll donate painstakingly gathered blood to a needy friend, who will return the favor when fortunes are reversed. And vampire bats have bigger forebrains - the locus of much "social" intelligence - than other bats.

    As for the richer form of reciprocal altruism, coalitional contention, it turns out not to be confined to such famously political animals as chimpanzees. Bottle-nosed dolphins even form coalitions of coalitions. Team X of male dolphins will help team Y vanquish team Z, and, later, team Y will return the favor. Since victory brings sex, skill in coalition building is an obvious candidate for an arms race among dolphins.

    All told, if you look at the foundations of human intelligence - tool use, language, reciprocal altruism, coalitional contention, and others - you can find them, if in primitive form, scattered far and wide across the animal kingdom. Given evolution's tendency to generate more and more species, to elevate complexity, and to keep inventing and reinventing technologies, the eventual combination of these foundational properties in a single species was likely all along.

    Gould writes, "Humans are here by the luck of the draw." Undeniably true. But there's a difference between saying it took great luck for you to be the winner and saying it took great luck for there to be a winner. This is the distinction off which lotteries, casinos, and bingo parlors make their money. In the game of evolution, I submit, it was just a matter of time before one species or another raised its hand (or, at least, its grasping appendage) and said, "Bingo!"

    This thesis, though little publicized, is not radical. Some noted biologists, such as William D. Hamilton and Edward O. Wilson, believe that the evolution of great intelligence was likely from the start.

    Hamilton's work also suggests another interesting likelihood. He was the first to rigorously explain the evolution of family bonds - that is, "kin-selected altruism." In the human species, with its complex emotions, such altruism entails love and empathy. What's more, these warm feelings were expanded by the advent of reciprocal altruism so that we are now capable of empathizing with people we're not related to. Since natural selection has invented both kinds of altruism numerous times, it is not too wild to suggest that this expansive sentiment was probable all along.

    This prospect - that evolution's directionality may have a "moral" dimension - helps explain why some religiously inclined people find progressivism intriguing. Obviously, this theme wouldn't sell the creationists themselves on Darwinism; if you think that Genesis is literally true, evolution will always be your enemy. But, in the battle between Darwinians and creationists for the hearts and minds of the uncommitted, it matters whether evolution by natural selection is spiritually suggestive.

    Even if you accept the arguments for directionality, and agree that intelligence and even love were likely from the start, that is hardly overwhelming evidence of a higher purpose. But it's closer to it than Gould's version of evolution - a stumbling, bumbling process that just happened to lead, Mr. Magoo-like, to Einstein, Mother Teresa, and the Internet.

    Some Darwinians flirt with deism, the no-frills faith that was favored during the Enlightenment precisely for its compatibility with science. In this view, God set cosmic history in motion and then adopted a hands-off policy, confident that it would lead to something interesting. Certainly, history has led to something interesting. Who knows? Maybe the present moment - when an intelligent form of life starts to collectively, deliberately shape the whole biosphere's destiny, was itself, in some statistical sense, destiny.

    But, really, how consoling could any Darwinian god be? Those who would like to believe in a higher power that is both omnipotent and benign will be frustrated by the most casual inspection of the medium of our design. Among the key ingredients in natural selection's creative energy are death and suffering, the casting aside of the "unfit." And, for every bit of love and harmony, there seems to be a flip side of antagonism and cruelty; among the things we do for loved ones is hate their enemies. What kind of god would use natural selection as a creative tool?

    It is tempting to answer as the biologist George Williams has: a very bad god. On the other hand, a smart, reflective species with a capacity for empathy could be capable of greater things than we've seen. Maybe human behavior will someday justify a theology rather like that of the ancient Manichaeans: maybe nature, though dominated by darkness, has always contained seeds of light, seeds of intellect and love, which over the ages grow until they transcend their base embodiment.

    In any event, to note the ample dark side of evolution is simply to re-state the problem that any honest religion must confront: the problem of evil. And solving timeless theological quandaries is beyond Darwinism's job description. My point is just that Darwinism needn't put theologians out of a job. Granted, it may force them to abandon beliefs. Scientific progress, as the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead wrote, has long spurred the amendment of religious doctrine - "to the great advantage of religion" - while religion's essence remained intact. For many religious people, part of that essence is the belief that, above and beyond the vestigial cruelties and absurdities of the human experience, there is a point to it all, a point that, even if obscure, may yet become manifest. So far, biological science has provided no reason to conclude otherwise.

    An adapted excerpt (first published in The New Yorker)from Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny, By Robert Wright, published by Pantheon Books. Copyright 2000 by Robert Wright. Other excerpts are available at www.nonzero.org

    1. Re:"The Accidental Creationist" by nagora · · Score: 2
      He depicts evolution as something that can't possibly reflect a higher purpose,

      It doesn't and it can't.

      and thus can't provide the sort of spiritual consolation most people are after.

      That's their problem, since the universe was not made for our benefit. Wishing doesn't make it so.

      we live in a universe that is "indifferent to our suffering."

      Which is patently obvious to any intelligent or observant person that's lived in the universe for any length of time.

      If you replayed evolution on this planet, he says, the chances of getting any species as smart as humans - smart enough to reflect on itself - are "extremely small."

      We know that to be true by the simple fact that it's only happened once in all the species that have existed. In all those millions of "rolls of the dice" the result has only come up once. It follows that it MUST be rare.

      TWW

      --
      "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    2. Re:"The Accidental Creationist" by Baldrson · · Score: 2
      RW: He depicts evolution as something that can't possibly reflect a higher purpose,

      N: It doesn't and it can't.

      That's an article of faith on your part. Reflection is context-dependent. The context of evolution is largely unknown and maybe even to a large degree unknowable.

      RW: and thus can't provide the sort of spiritual consolation most people are after.

      N: That's their problem, since the universe was not made for our benefit. Wishing doesn't make it so.

      Spiritual consolation needn't rely on such a quasi-solopsist perspective as "the universe was made for our benefit." anymore than professional compensation need rely on the idea that the companies compensating us were made for our benefit.

      RW: we live in a universe that is "indifferent to our suffering."

      N: Which is patently obvious to any intelligent or observant person that's lived in the universe for any length of time.

      How desperate. To return to the compensation example, the fact that your employer doesn't exist for your benefit doesn't then imply your employer can be indifferent to your suffering.

      If nothing else, you can blow the bastards away before killing yourself. Not the "Christian" thing to do, but it does reinforce a "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" perspective in their minds. Keep in mind your employers are part of your universe.

      RW: If you replayed evolution on this planet, he says, the chances of getting any species as smart as humans - smart enough to reflect on itself - are "extremely small."

      N: We know that to be true by the simple fact that it's only happened once in all the species that have existed. In all those millions of "rolls of the dice" the result has only come up once. It follows that it MUST be rare.

      Non sequitur. You're talking about the odds of any given species being intelligent. They're talking about the odds of there existing even one intelligent species out of all those millions.

    3. Re:"The Accidental Creationist" by nagora · · Score: 2
      You're talking about the odds of any given species being intelligent. They're talking about the odds of there existing even one intelligent species out of all those millions.

      Same thing, or at least closely related.

      If we know, say, that there have been 10 billion species and only one has been intelligent then we can estimate the odds that, on re-running the whole story, none, one, or more species would hit the jackpot in the same time based on the result that each species has one in 10 billion chance of being intelligent.

      Like I say, it would be an estimate and pehaps we were very lucky and the odds are actually one in a trillion per species. But until we find some other intelligent life it's all we have to go on.

      N: That's their problem, since the universe was not made for our benefit. Wishing doesn't make it so.

      Spiritual consolation needn't rely on such a quasi-solopsist perspective as "the universe was made for our benefit." anymore than professional compensation need rely on the idea that the companies compensating us were made for our benefit.

      But the fact that evolution can not offer spiritual consolation is irrelevant unless one pre-supposes that it should have some such. Otherwise it is like criticising a chair for not being able to speak. Worse, since a chair has some purpose and a maker who can at least be appealed to for a "better" chair design while evolution is simply a grand tautology: "Living things are those which have survived" with no more depth to it than that and no designer to petition for an improved evolution with added spiritual consolation.

      As to the other points, Occam's razor applies; since there is no evidence to indicate that there is a higher purpose, a spiritual aspect to the universe, or that it is not indifferent to our suffering the burden of proof is on those that would say otherwise. Just as I don't feel any need to prove that Santa Claus does not exist - if you say he does then I'm all ears for the evidence.

      --
      "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  92. Re:90 percent also believe... by junkgrep · · Score: 1

    ---What I find amusing is an atheist calling something "immoral," thereby adopting tenets of theism without thinking. Without God, there is no morality: only situational advantage, and it is illogical and senseless to "have to worry about the future."---

    Good greif man, PLATO refuted this argument thousands of years before you were born. I dare you to try and explain how the existence of a God "makes" morality. The very cocnept ("making" or "deciding") morality is incoherent.

    ---There is no reason to be moral/nice/kind to one's fellow man apart from a perceptible advantage gained; if you cannot identify the exact advantage, you are acting illogically.---

    God forbid we actually act morally because we CARE about virtue, or have compassion for others, right? Or DID your God forbid it? Tell me: of the two of us, which one worships a being who supposedly commanded its followers to dash unborn infants out on the rocks?

    ---Atheism, if carried to its logical conclusion, inexorably leads to nihilism.---

    Nonsense: please explain how the lack of a PARTICULAR ideology (theism) requires that a person have NO beliefs or ideology, let alone believe IN nothing (nihilism).

  93. More (solid) harsh criticism of Gould by AbbeyRoad · · Score: 1
    Gould may have been a brilliant writer, but at least one of his works is a complete fraud from cover to cover. I speak of "The Mismeasure of Man" - the themes of this book cannot be backed up by any research on earth. It is all Gould's own hypothesis. In truth, there is far more reality and consistency in the science being done in the world of psychometrics. But don't believe me, simply try to reference any of his citations; or analise the logic of his suppositions. It quickly becomes apparent that the book is nonsense. Researches in the field do not respect Gould's opinions. It's a sensationalist book designed to fabricate a phantom enemy.

    By comparison, a scarcely known book, on the same subject, by a complete non-expert, Daniel Seligman's "A Question of Intelligence", is a relative masterpiece, simply because the author actually DID SOME RESEARCH before writing it. Its thorough, factual, objective, and represents the opinions of real experts in the field. It also contradicts everything that Gould ever said on the subject.

    It is most dissapointing that people are unable to tell the difference between a work of hard science, and a work of speculative sensationalism. You tell the difference through the logic of arguments, verifiable citations, and the breath of literary review.

    A work is not true just because its ideas are cool.