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Canadian Government to Jam Radio Signals
An anonymous reader submits: "According to this article, the Canadian government has given the military and RCMP permission to jam radio signals during the G8 summit and the Pope's visit. I suppose that the stated reason would be to prevent terrorists from communicating with each other, but I have to wonder whether it's also being done to keep those pesky protesters from effectively organizing at the G8. And if this action manages to block wireless 911 calls, and someone dies because of that, who's going to be willing to step up to the plate and take the blame?"
how terrorists are the only ones who use cellphones and drug dealers are the only ones who use pages.
Here are some details.
Jam this!
If we don't fight for ourselves no one will.
Anybody got a quarter?
Romana: "How did you know?" Doctor Who: "Ah, well, knowing is easy. Everyone does THAT ad nauseum. I just sort of hope"
"And if this action manages to block wireless 911 calls, and someone dies because of that, who's going to be willing to step up to the plate and take the blame?"
Our country lived without cell phones for 200 years; I think people will survive for another 12 days without them in that area. They are going to be in a populated area; landline phones will be nearby. People don't die from lack of cell phones.
Yeah...and maybe a bridge will fall on someone or maybe someone will be hit by lightning. Nice editorial post.
Anyways....about the link:
"It could be used, for example, if there was threat of a detonation of some type of a remote-controlled device. We could jam the frequencies to make sure nobody could send a signal to that bomb."
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if this were the situation, wouldn't jamming the signal potentially detonate the bomb?
Canada is becoming more and more like the U.S. in its willingness to shut up its people by any means necessary. Farewell free speech! We knew you well, but the government has decided the public airwaves are no place for the public to be speaking to one another. Adieu.
Jamming is achieved by making sure your signal is stronger than anyone elses', I hope the hypothetical detonation device doesn't simply look for a signal of a significant strength.
There will be more than "blocking 911" to worry about then.
Mmmmmmm
"It could be used, for example, if there was threat of a detonation of some type of a remote-controlled device. We could jam the frequencies to make sure nobody could send a signal to that bomb."
He did not know, however, how the jamming would affect cell phones or commercial radio transmissions
It specifies that "every reasonable effort shall be made to confine or restrict to the extent possible interference with or obstruction of a radiocommunication . . . to the smallest physical area, the fewest number of frequencies and the minimum duration required to accomplish the objectives of the interference or obstruction."
and most interesting
Jamming devices are also illegal in the United States, but there is a growing underground market for the devices, which can be bought for about $2,200. A survey of 2,000 people last year by Decima Research found about 50 per cent support for jammers in public places.
Imagine no more cell phones going off in movie theatres.
Besides, if it's a public place, there should be a public phone nearby. It's not like these people are on a highway in the middle of nowhere.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Okay, if they're gonna be jamming the radio and cellphone signals of protesters and other such undesireables, won't they also be in effect jammng their *own* radio and cellphone signals as well, not to mention those attending the G8?
Let's see...
1. If you jam radio frequencies, you deny yourself information you might otherwise be able to use to your advantage. Not real smart.
2. This does NOTHING to block visual signalling methods, or hard-line transmission methods that do not rely on radio frequency communication.
3. Remote control explosive devices that could be set off by the intended transmission could also be set off by the jamming, which is _also_ a transmission of considerable strength on multiple frequencies. Explosive crews use those "Turn off Transmitter next X miles" signs for a reason.
4. If you only block selective frequencies, you'll probably miss blocking transmissions in other alternate bands/frequencies you didn't expect "the forces of darkness" to use.
5. The methods they intend to use are akin to killing a fly with a sledgehammer.
And that's just off the top of my head!
As it turns out, our representatives wisely decided to opt for a capitalist system. The highest bidder (that is, the bidder with the strongest desire to speak), is able to purchase spectrum at a reasonable cost from the American people. Thus, the maximum possible return is achieved for the taxpayers, and the highest bidder has paid a fair price for the scarce resource they need. Capitalism works - period.
Unfortunately, Canadia is not a capitalist society. Canadians favor socialist approaches to health care, government, and (yes) RF spectrum allocation. This means that the rights to an area of spectrum belong to the government, not to the people (as in America). And the Canadian government is now flexing their muscle and exercising their right to take this valuable resource away from its citizens, who wish to communicate amongst themselves. This underscores a crucial point of socialism: its sole purpose is to maintain control over the populace, at any cost. The basic premise of capitalism flies in the face of this sort of manipulation, and that is why America will never become a police state, regardless of what Draconian laws the Bush administration manages to pass.
So, in summary: you get what you elect. If you vote for socialists, don't expect to get fair use out of the natural resources and public goods in your country. The lesson comes at a high cost for many Canadians (witness the breakdown of their health care system), but recognizing the problem is the first step in finding a solution and joining the rest of the Western world in becoming a capitalist country.
Bill
Very likely
As for Stephen King, if he's dead, the NY Times, CNN, and www.stephenking.com don't know about it yet.
Never confuse volume with power.
I heard it on talk radio, he's gone. There were no more details. Truly an american icon, he will be missed :-(
If you get attached by a bear in Kanaskis you likely won't be able to use your cell phone anyway. Even if you live to tell about it.
When a police car runs over someone in a high speed chase, the person being chased is assigned the blame. The same logic will prevail in this situation.
Not that I agree with it -- it's just the answer to the question. (Not that I agree with the protestors either. I don't.)
RCMP == Royal Canadian Mounted Police
This from http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is the Canadian national police service and an agency of the Ministry of the Solicitor General of Canada. The RCMP is unique in the world since it is a national, federal, provincial and municipal policing body. We provide a total federal policing service to all Canadians and policing services under contract to the three territories, eight provinces (except Ontario and Quebec), approximately 198 municipalities and, under 172 individual agreements, to 192 First Nations communities.
What if the jamming effectively ruins some terrorists plans, and prevents a disaster and saves hundreds of lives? But I guess that we'll never know for sure.
I am personally convinced that the various intelligence agencies prevent dozens of terrorist attacks per months, some of them probably of the 9/11 magnitude, without the public realizing simply because the government wants to keep those quiet (no need to shout wolf once the threat is defused).
okay okay...not to completely bash this and probably be the only one to realize this...but canada...of all places feels the need to protect the Pope during a visit??? umm isnt it if you are pure in your religion and faith in God you arent supposed to be afraid of dying or anything else because you are in the hand of God himself? Mother Theresa wasnt afraid of people or terrorists...
other than the religious aspect of it, why Canada of all places is afraid of terrorists? Who would be moronic enough to think attacking the Pope of all people would be a good idea? just a thought..when was the last time someone attacked Canada...no wait, when was the first time someone attacked Canada...????
"He added that cellphone jammers are illegal in Canada, but the department will soon release a policy on the devices."---if i roll my eyes any higher they'll leap out of my skull...
"It could be used, for example, if there was threat of a detonation of some type of a remote-controlled device. We could jam the frequencies to make sure nobody could send a signal to that bomb."--surely if i got word of a bomb i'd haul ass away from the area thats it is said to be in or near!
-Alicia
The First Amendment to the US Constitution codifies the idea that the free flow of information empowers free people to do good things with that information. Pity that our neighbors to the north rejected the invitation to place themselves under its jurisdiction (and that our own government seems hell-bent on neutering the entire document).
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
I bet that they already have a scapegoat lined up to take the fall.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Many doctors in the US will not take medicare patients from what I've read because the paper work to get any money out of the system is too complicated. In many instances the system won't pay up and the doctor has to pay for it. Fix it you say? Bullshit, that's what the Socialists have been telling us for years. "We can fix it this time, honest!" "It'll be different this time, we'll make it work this time!" Same old, same old. It does not work.
Why should a private hospital be forced to treat any loser that wants to be treated? There are free clinics for that. Why don't you start giving money to a local free clinic. There's one in my town that does a good job at treating those who cannot afford healthcare. Give money since you're presumably not licensed to be a nurse or doctor. That way the poor can actually get healthcare without having to wonder if next time the doctor is going to tell them to buzz off since medicare left him standing with the bill.
Medical care is the product of a doctor's labor. You have no right to tell a doctor what he or she can charge their clients and who they can accept or refuse. If you feel so strongly, go become a doctor and treat the poor at a margin barely enough to keep you off the street yourself.
Perhaps even more dangerous. Doctors and other emergency workers need to be accesible by cellphone. (And any other person who has an "on call" type of job. Howdy IT folks ;-) )
A major reason you don't see jammers etc. in movie theatres for a bit is some people need their phones to work. Hopefully at somepoint we'll have smart phones that can be set to ring only for doctors etc. if desperately needed. If not, only allow phones to vibrate.
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
...sure beats the old method of posting "No Terrorism" signs all over the place.
I think you're more likely to die from a cell-phone-induced tumor than a 911 call not being placed where you could easily use a pay phone..........
Aw, fuck it. Let's go bowling. - The Big Lebowski
in a disaster? The phone service.
Vital communication would be jammed exactly when it was most needed by the very people who would need it most. Set off a bomb in a crowded mall NEAR the center of the action and the emergency services might not hear of it until somebody drove over and told them.
All of downtown New York was without land phone service for days, weeks and my old neighborhood (Battery Park City,) was affected for months after the attack on the WTC.
Cell phones were dead too because there was no power available to the repeaters but those were reestablished within hours or days with mobile power units and mobile repeaters driven in on trucks.
This is yet another example of bureaucratic thinking at its best: Cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I would want the badge number of the fool who thought that one up. And I would hold him/her and the judge who is allowing this stupidity so we can hold them responsible for any deaths due to the inability of the authorities to respond.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
... law-abiding citizens trying to reach the police because their store is being torn down by angry protesters?
I smell a lawsuit waiting to happen...
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If you have a problem with the moderation system, please consider that moderators are not the only ones who read at -1. In fact, if you believe the moderation system serves to quash dissenting viewpoints, then why make it painful for people to bypass modrration entirely by browsing at -1?
If you're just trying to be puerile, so be it. But if you have a point, please share.
It may not be just, but it is fair, and that is more important.
"Fair for all"? How so? I dare you to say, with conviction and truth, that a millionaire in the USA has the exact same power or influence as a blue-collar worker just scraping by, day to day. Sure, they can both vote, but what if a poor person can't get out of their house because they can afford to treat their illness? All systems have their classes - only their names change.
With Japan nipping at your heels. Keep in mind that Japan has universal health care, very similar to the system we have in Canada.
Feel the PHIST!
It's been used a few times (not terribly appropriately IRC), most of which included comical images of the bomb squad desperately trying to remember their semaphore signals.
However, they do leave the public telephones running, so that's something.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"I haven't seen so many uninformed posts in so long, I was beginning to wonder if /. had changed. For fuck sakes people, we're on the same continent as the majority of you, you think you'd known one or two things about us, like the fact that the Canadian Military recently switch to one of the most sophisticated, IP based, combat radio systems, with many capabilites that cannot be used in Canada, due to government and CRTC regulations. This gives the military a chance to try out some of the new gear in a live situation.
One more person bitches about 911, and it's back to basic radio theory for you.....
.
-- I care not for your foolish signatures.
The protestors will be protesting right down the street from me.
"...if this action manages to block wireless 911 calls, and someone dies because of that, who's going to be willing to step up to the plate and take the blame?"
This is in the middle of the capital city of Canada. There will be plenty of landlines everywhere. There's a large task force of emergency personnel. I cannot see this as a problem.
Your over-generalization of the poor astounds and appalls me. Many of the poor people I know *don't* have cable, and have quit smoking, and still can't better their positions in life. You know why? They spent their waking hours working to keep themselves and their families alive. When you're working two minimum wage jobs under a mountain of debt, how can you just go and get educated? Being poor is a trap - one that many people cannot get out of.
Since the Pope's involved, They can say:
"We're jammin' in the name of the Lord!!!"
The lesson comes at a high cost for many Canadians (witness the breakdown of their health care system),
/. But I also recognize that health care, like food, clothing and shelter, is a basic human need whereas software is a luxury item. I think that difference in need versus luxury should have some bearing on a discussion as to the economic viability of solutions to a growing problem.
I am not totally familiar with the Canadian health care system. My understanding is that it's administered by the provinces, and that there has been a lot of discussion as of late of doctor shortages and so forth.
But recently someone on a local usenet newsgroup made this same claim you are making, and in the same note tried to imply that the US health care system is perfectly fine because of it's capitalist nature. (as opposed to the evil of socialism) So I was curious and started looking for some facts.
What I found is that life expectancy in the US is less than other G8 nations which have socialized health care(France, Germany, Canada, UK, Italy, Japan) with the exception of Russia. Furthermore the infant mortality rate is also higher in the US compared to the other G8 nations, again with the exception of Russia.
On top of that, the amount spent on health care in the US per capita is much greater... in the neighborhood of double. This despite(or maybe because of?) something like 40-60 million Americans lacking health insurance.
So I guess I'm puzzled. If Canada's system has broken down, what term do we use to describe the US system? A complete failure?
I'm a pretty big proponent for capitalism, as can be evidenced by my ridicule of the GPL proponents and the Microsoft antitrust trial on
If the best capitalism can do for healthcare is drive costs up without yielding any demonstrable benefits measured by statistical indicators perhaps we should be looking at alternatives?
I can see why they are worried. Ewoks are known to use cellphones.
Deconstruct the State
i love my freedoms as a Canadian, and i love my cell phone, and i fully support peoples rights to peacefull demonstration.
I live in Ottawa. during the g8 conference a group of protesters has vowed to disrupt life in the city, and refused to talk to police, or make statements to discourage violence, infact they have encouraged it. Business are boarding up, and citizens are scared.
I do not like when people come to my home and destroy it for there own political goals. I understand the reasons not to block trafic, however, anything that can be done to keep my home from being destroyed by these protestors MUST be done.
civil disobediance is onething (gandhi practiced it, and never once struck out at anyone) wantan distruction of property is another.
before you comment, to this article about how your liberties and freedoms are being taken away by the authorities, think about what you would want if your home town was suddenly faced with thousands of violent protestors.
joining the rest of the Western world in becoming a capitalist country.
What makes you think we are capitalist? In many ways our country is becoming Canada, and you know what, nobody seems to care. Our government has a wealth of socalist programs in force. You know that Huge new Farm bill? Very socalist. Social Security? Income Tax?
Before WW II we didn't need Income tax and we had a ok army ta boot. What changed? We decided as a country that we started to like big government. Its a shame really.
Nice juxtaposition of "humor" and political sloganeering.
I dont see any point for the violent protestors to be out in ottawa during this.
Neither do I.
After all, it's not *my fault* that they wasted four years and $xx,000 pursuing Bachelor of Arts degrees in such top-flight useful fields as Women's Studies, English Literature and Anthropology. Of course they can't get good jobs! Of course they feel left behind by civilization! They couldn't take science degrees. How can they be expected to integrate by parts when they can't even remember to shower every day?
I mean, if I were them, I'd be pissed off too, but only at myself.
I think I'll go protest the protest, carrying a big sign: "Get a job, you unwashed hippy losers."
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
True, in an absolute sense. Given the proper conditions a poor person can bootstrap his/her self up the class system.
What puzzles me no end about the absolute capitalist mindset is the peculiar mental avoidance of what actually happens *on the ground*. Most people do not in fact do this, and to say that their reasons for staying in a given position within the class structure are purely self-determined is just silly. People exist within a framework of social and legal interactions which can and do keep them immobile. To accept an absolute, unfettered capitalist approach is ultimately to embrace an highly stratified, rigidly class-structured society (and I'm not interested in a theoretical discussions - this is what happens *for real*). Economic power bleeds over into political power, and the interests of those already in place in the power structure are regularly put ahead of the populace.
Capitalism does not promote democracy - this is a self-congratulatory piece of propaganda from the Reagan era and before. Examples like Hong Kong, Singapore, even the emergent riches of China offer ample counterexamples to this piece of dogma (and I use the word dogma in a literal sense, as the connection between the absolute caplitalist view and a faith sensu stricto is very clear). Capitalism is nothing more than a particular method of organizing economic flow. Democracy is the organization of political power. Examples abound of democratic/socialist, dictatorial/capitalist, democractic/capitaist and dictatorial/socialist societies. Canada leans towards democratic/socialist (at least in contrast to the USA).
Anyway, as a lifelong Canadian I've never felt particularly shorted by our health care system. It is very true that in the USA I could get better treatments for some things **if I could pay for them**. This is also true for citizens of the USA. Anyone US citizen who is without health insurance (don't know the latest figure, but it is whopping) cannot even approach the Canadian level of health care. Furthermore, if I am a wealthy Canadian I can also afford US health care (as many regularly do).
So in a nutshell, the base level of health care available to Canadians regularly exceeds that available to huge numbers of US citizens. The wealthy can and do access better health care, just like in the USA.
"The US, with the least government meddling in medicine, leads the world in medical advances."
Yet those advances only help those wealthly enough to pay for them.
Unfortunately, Canadia is not a capitalist system.
I see this "Canada is a socialism" BS on here a lot on Slashdot, and I find it fascinating. Could you tell me where I might find a "non-socialist" country? I presume you won't say the United States, as public highways, old age security, public schools, police departments, fire departments, public health, any government agency, etc, is ALL SOCIALISM (I'm in a rush and am too lazy right now, but please show me the budget amounts for the US and Canadian federal governments: I'll guess that they are largely the same per capita).
Any time people gather together for a "common good" is socialism. Life insurance is a version of socialism. Health insurance is COMPLETELY socialism (or do all Americans forsake health insurance because it's "commie socialism"? Do they say "No, when I get cancer, I'm looking forward to ponying up $527,293.23, because that's the capitalist American way!). Any time you don't directly pay for the goods and services that you receive, 100% so, it is a socialism system that is supporting it.
Wow, who'd have thought. The Blotto box does exist and the British police have one.
check it out http://www.g6bpeoplessummit.org/
--------------------------------- Born Again Bourne Again Believer: New Life, GNU/Linux Be Free!
for use during G8. I know because the Loss Prevention Officer for the company I work for is ex-RCMP and CSIS (aren't all LP investigators?) and he has volunteered for G8. It also helps that his office is next to mine, so we converse all the time. So, I fail to see how the jamming is going to affect cell phones if the police themselves are using CDMA digital phones.
The conversation has drifted to the G8 more than once and the preparations for it. The level of prepardedness is obscene; State of the art technology is being used, 24 hour satellite surveillance, hidden listening devices in the woods, "Ninjas" camouflaged under brush around Kananaskis, a dedicated fibre connection between Calgary and the meeting site in Kananskis installed just for G8 and on and on.
The UK Govt already have the ability to cut off the general publics cell phone ability using the obscurely named feature of GSM ACCOLC 'Access Overload Control for cellular radio systems' - here are some links: http://www.doh.gov.uk/epcu/epcu/refdocs/accolcqa.p df, http://www.co-ordination.gov.uk/contingencies/dwd/ information.htm
Evil ZEN Scientist
"It could be used, for example, if there was threat of a detonation of some type of a remote-controlled device. We could jam the frequencies to make sure nobody could send a signal to that bomb."
Those oh-so-funny Canadians. Let's go over what it means to "jam" a signal. Quite simply, it is "stepping" on a radio signal of a certain frequency with a more powerful transmission, making it like trying to whisper to someone over a bullhorn. A remote-controlled bomb does not necessarily have to have a code in the transmission, the reciever could simply be expecting a rather strong signal on a certain frequency. Now if the RCMP and their nice powerful antennas start running up and down the radio spectrum trying to jam all kinds of frequencies, well...They could quite easily set such a bomb off themselves. That is ASSUMING that they are even allowed to jam frequencies outside of normal communications, which a bomb would most certainly not be tuned to. This argument of preventing a remote controlled bomb from exploding is completlely bogus. This is yet another example of a goverment overextending their power in the name of terrorists lurking around every corner. It would seem the terrorists have gotten what they wanted out of 9/11, to turn the West into a giant police state where the government can do whatever the hell they want, and pass it off as their efforts to "protect" us.
-R
The earlier post is correct.
The reason is that the trigger must be of an uncommon frequency so that when you arm a charge, someone doesn't hit a garage door opener and blow you sky high that second. If it carries on a common frequency, the key must be unique and so that the band that you are using doesn't kill you with any "punch through" or harmonics.
Or- if you are using a simple circuit reciever... you really need to set the arming mechanism to arm a predetermined time after activation, so that it doesn't get you as you are walking away.
I had a friend in the army. I am not a kook.
If Canadian officials are willfully disregarding the provisions of their own constitution, who are you to throw rocks? You[r supreme court] elected George W., thus creating the least constitutionally responsible executive branch in the past hundred years...
Just a little something for your noodle...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/06/22/spai
I understand the ire of WTO protestors and people who feel similarly... I feel for them. But the world has changed a lot since Seattle. Especially in the matters of protest outside the Americas. Matter of fact, a LOT of protestors have been killed across the world since Seattle. Every time there seems to be a world anything anymore, there is activity of the Serious Bad Kind (TM). Just in the last few days, the ante has been upped for psychotic, killing activity. The psychos have really been rallying since the WTC attack.
I am pretty sure that these countermeasures are done to stop a little more than the drum circles and the occasional Starbucks window attack. The police are not as concerned about the dreadlock kids as many would think they are. Not after the mess in Spain.
If anyone is in Spain, please tell us about what is going on over their in your words... I think the
This is nothing more than petty retaliation for previous attempts to inform people on what goes on in such events.
During the last G8 summit in Genoa certain organizations used radio broadcasting to tell the public present in the city of the multiple abuses of power by authorities in Genoa and around the world.
The truth is not something that many in power want to get around. After Genoa, radio, albeit pirate radio, was also used in Doha, Qatar during the WTO ministerial conference. A Google search for "No New Round Radio" results in the archives of this pirate radio station.
Considering then that in the last two international events of this magnitude, radio played a large role in letting people express their opinions in a peaceful manner, then it is quite natural that the authorities are choosing to jam radio signals. They want to keep the oppresed masses ignorant!
I doubt they need this for the G8 summit. The jamming of cell phone frequencies seems a little overkill because:
(1) the G8 meeting is held in a park called Kananaskis. It's in the foothills and Canadian Rockies, located in the province of Alberta. Anyway, the place the summit is located (the Rocky Mountain Lodge) is fairly isolated. Cell phone coverage is good in the area (so says my wife who has been there recently) but I'm guessing it's only available in populated areas or along the major roads.
(2) The place is being secured mostly by the Canadian military, with the RCMP in town or along the roads. The military presence is huge (the soldiers are fully armed), their primary role is to secure the outlying areas and they have permission to use deadly force. The air space will be closely monitored (they have mobile radar stations up) and jets can be called up or will be patrolling the area (I think there's a no-fly-zone in effect).
While there is a possibility of terrorists, protestors are probably an equal target of cell phone jamming. Protesters (good & bad) use cell phones as a means of organizing groups of people.
Let's just hope the RCMP doesn't fuck up and, say, jam emergency frequencies or that used by commercial aviation.
Health insurance in the States, with the exception of Medicare/Medicaid, is not there primarily to help people -- it's a way to amortize risk. It exists as a form of gambling where the private issuers of such policies and their actuaries believe that they can make money off people's aversion to risk -- and, unlike socialism, most of these plans (again, not M/M) are strictly voluntary where available. That's why insurance companies and HMOs fight tooth and nail to be able to deny people treatments -- the aim is money, not health.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Well they can jam all the radio signals in Canada that they want, (would that interfere with people's home wireless internet routers?....) well anyway, the point is that people will communicate no matter how many restrictions you put in place. Cell phones are more likely to prevent an attack than to be the method used to organize one anyway!!! this is sheer Canadian Stupidity if you ask me. How much protection are they offering the protestors anyway!?!? there seems to be MORE people there than super-rich people (or leaders) at these summits anyway... oh well... I can't wait for the Canadian gov't to have this one come back and bite them where it hurts.
The least constitutionally responsible executive branch was probably FDR, well within your 100 years. He actually sought dominance over one of the other checks and balances by attempting to stack the supreme court, and nearly succeeded. But he was still a great president. He was as great as the republicans think reagan was.
--Jimmy has fancy plans; and pants to match.
I was at an emerency preparedness presentation in Edmonton today. Seems that the cell phone system during the Pine Lake tornado was crashed by a bunch of media reporters. I suspect they are the real target of this jamming.
During Pine Lake, "individuals" decided that they needed to use the 12 available Cell channels in the remote town to do Live reports back to the Big Cities... so they grabbed the cell frequencies and NEVER HUNG UP! These press people are not terribly popular when they hogged resources that ambulance and SAR people might also want to use!
Fortunately there are a lot of HAM operators in Alberta and they were able to provide radio relays to the SAR people and bypass the phone service.
-AD
This is the original 'mission statement' of Canada.
Where in this do you infer Canadians have rights if they infringe on the first 3 concepts?
-AD
Watches and other methods of keeping time have also been outlawed at this event, because the chance of a group of people synchronizing their watches and deciding to cause a disturbance at the same time is way too high.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I was chatting with a bunch of HAM operators today in Edmonton. The agency that governs the allocation of the radio spectrum is:
** Industry Canada **
So much for the idea of not selling spectrum...
-AD
We lived without sanitary water supplies for one hundred years.
We lived without electricity for 100 years.
We lived without roads and cars for 100 years.
We lived without airplanes for 100 years.
And of course, we lived without stupid comments on what we lived without for a long long time.
Infuriate left and right
This is funny. Since any potential terrorists know they can't use their cell phones, the cops won't be able to use their high tech electronic survelance and locating equipment!!! haha.
Actually, Kananakis is Bear country. There are lots of Grizzly bears. I suspect the bears will effect a rather good security blanket against any protesters in fact. So get this picture. The cops will be hampered because they can't use electronic location methods but the Bears will be in fine form because they can sniff 'em out! haha.
Another point is the cops are so paranoid now that the Calgary Unix Users Group CUUG had to move the regular monthly meeting away from the downtown library because apparently we geeks are a security risk.
Oh, and no telecomunication services are to be changed either... which means that even though Telus has sent rather nasty announcments to the effect that our xDSL services are to be cancelled or switched over as of the end of June - apparently they won't hook up new services. Alas, methinks the idiot factor is getting rather high.
.... for two reasons
1) They are making us fully aware of what is going on, there is no loss of privacy
2) They are not allowing communication and monitoring it. That would be an invasion of privacy.
I applaud the gov't for coming up with an alternate solution that doesn't infringe on peoples privacy.
The problem is that in the states doctors pay $$$$ to get their license while in Canada much of the training costs are paid by the government. My sister just became an MD and she is now 100G in debt - that's 10g Canadian per year. Students in the states pay at least that much per term. They've got big debts to pay off when they graduate and deserve to get pain accordingly. If my sister were to move to the states she could pay of her dept in a year where it would take an American trained doctor several years.
The current system isn't fair for either Americans or Canadians. Canadians foot the bill to train doctors that work in the states and American doctors have to compete with Canadians that don't have half of their debt load. It's actually good for the American public - bad for the doctors. Up hear in Canada we call it the "brain drain."
The two possible solutions are to have Canadians pay more for their education, costing the government less money which they can put back into paying higher wages - or to reduce the pay of American doctors and "make it all right" by providing more funding for their education / startup costs. I personally favor the first option as having a high cost of education simply limits good educations to those that can afford them. Ever wonder why all American doctors have rich parents? It is not because only the rich kids are intelligent.
Actually they do..although the summit is taking place out in Alberta, a lot of protesters, realizing that they can't get close (or those that just don 't want to go to Alberta) are going to try to "Take the Capital" here in Ottawa during the time of the summit. That means 90% of the people that are peaceful protesters will be forgotten about when the 10% that are anarchist idiots start rampaging in the streets, smashing windows and looting stores like they did last year during the G20 Summit that was held here. I tell ya, it was neat to watch masked punks running up one street below my office window and watch the phalanx of officers running up the perpendicular street to get them.
What's different from last time? Sept 11...
The RCMP is using the blocking technique on a VERY localized basis (like blocking cell phones in a moview theatre) to prevent REMOTE CONTROL detonation of explosives in Ottawa around government buildings and installations (including the US Embassy, which is three blocks form Parliament and 1 block from the Mint here in town). It has nothing to do with protesters communicating to organize. The protesters are already organized...enough to break off talks wioth the Ottawa Police anyway.
Man talk about a tempest in a teapot...the Mounties know that if cell phones are disabled, the protesters will do what they did in the 80's - use a pay phone (we still have them about every three blocks, you know)! This is solely to prevent groups like Al Queda from using large protests as a cover for terrorist activities...or a TARGET!
Man, some of you here should really do a little research before spouting off..
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
It's only "more dangerous" because doctors and emergency workers are more careless about what they can do because they've got technology that "unwires" them. How did doctors get by without cell phones and beepers before those things existed? If they were on call, they stayed in places where they could get phone calls or messages!
If movie theatres start using jamming technology, then doctors just won't go to movies when they're on call. (Or they will, and will be rightfully sued when something bad happens.) Since I'm not a doctor, and I hate when cell phones ring in movie theatres, I say big *##!#@#ing deal. If the movie theatres want to pay for some kind of smart-vibrate feature on cell phones, then they can pay for it. Can you say "emergency dependability surcharge" on your cellphone bill?
I design user interfaces for a free network management application,
After the IRA planted a bomb at Aintree Racecourse on the day of the Grand National (horse racing for non UK people), the government enacted a power it has under some law that I can't remember the name of.
Basically it shut off all domestic and business landlines and mobile phones in the Aintree area of Liverpool. The only landlines that worked in the area were payphones.
The emergency services were equipped with cellphones that were supposed to be exempt from the shutoff. Sadly there was a bit of a cockup so most of them didn't work. They had to resort to using radios, and not everyone had them. This crippled communications in what was an emergency situation.
you could always use smoke signals...
I am unique, just like you, and you, and you...
Actually they take out the landlines from the exchange end.
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"In case you haven't noticed, payphones are nowhere near as common as they used to be. In a lot of cities, you have to go a couple of blocks (or more) just to find one (if you know where it is). Within three or four years, pay phones will be bordering on the endangered list...
From the article..."RCMP spokesman Corporal Benoît Desjardins said jamming is an important part of the security measures for both events. "The RCMP must ensure the safety and security of those attending," he said yesterday. "It could be used, for example, if there was threat of a detonation of some type of a remote-controlled device. We could jam the frequencies to make sure nobody could send a signal to that bomb." He did not know, however, how the jamming would affect cell phones or commercial radio transmissions.
If they jam to prevent such a detonation, they may cause the very detonation they hoped to prevent. "he did not know, however," This is the real problem. The authorities arond the globe are running around like chickens with their heads cut off from the specter of terrorism. This is the very choas Bin Laden and his ilk want. Cooler heads need to prevail.
How ya like dat?
Go check your history books. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms isn't even a quarter of a century old. It was enacted in 1982. Originally, Trudeau and the federal government wished to unilaterally approve this legislation (i.e. without the consent of the provinces). However, negotiations with the provinces eventually occured and in 1982, with the consent of 9 provinces (minus Quebec), the Canada Act became law. Thus, we now had a document outlining our rights and freedoms - and we also had a pissed off province in Quebec.
DDT works at killing bugs on crops...
Suicide works at stopping pain...
Nuclear bombs work for mining...
2-stroke engines work for autos...
The funny thing is, just because something works doesn't make it noble and good.
And even months after that, I was not able to access spamcop through my ISP because a certain switch was down.
We all know that the reason they want to jam radios is because they want to keep protesters from organising and media from reporting and excercising free speech rights.
Suicide bombers don't usually need to tell other people when they're gonna blow themselves up.
:)
All this will do is annoy law abiding citizens who want to use their own phones.
Anyone with "an agenda" is already making other plans to deal with the problem since it was so conveniantly announced in the press.
Typical Canadian government - goose-stepping all over Canadian rights. Somehow I know that Jean Poutine is behind all of it
It's a police-state in the making...
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
Well Sonny, when I was a Carleton student 12 years ago we protested the Gulf War...we had more people come out for a longer period than any in the G20 and nobody tear-gassed us. We dropped "body bags" (green garbage bags) off a the old DND recruiting centre on Elgin and protested on the Hill with about 25 000 others when the bombs started to fall. We didn't trash a McDonalds and no-one wore masks. Remember it? Probably not since it was PEACEFUL and nothing happened.
So I think I can spout off all I want. I was trapped in my building (WEP at O'Connor and Queen) for the entire afternoon because the police had the streets shut down chasing those "7" anachist idiots. I couldn't leave to go home, go to a client site or even go to Tim Hortons on Sparks for a coffee.
These are the same kinds of idiots who tried to hijack us back in '91. They don't care about "globalization" or "world peace" or "Kyoto"...they're Anarchists. In '91 they tried to call themselves the "Karl Marx Bicycle Club" or the "International Socialists" (sound familiar?). They do this to create Anarchy (hence the name). When a couple of these "protesters" tried to physically attack a lone guy protesting US, myself and two others fought them off and protected this guy form the other anarchist idiots (I believe our defence of someone whose opinion we did not agree with made it to Newsworld that day, I f you car to go to Carleton Journalism School and check). I guess we believed in democratic rights...
I was about 1/2 way up the WEP and there were more than 7...I counted. And as I remember it, there were way more than 7 arrests that day. Come to think of it, most of the guys/girls I saw running down Bank Street were wearing Masks, Gas Masks and scarves way before the police lobbed the gas. Did it ever occurr to you that if those "7" idiots had not violated the Criminal Code of Canada during the protest, then the cops may not have lobbed the tear gas?
You want to protest your cause? Go for it! Not only have I done it, I see it almost every day on the Hill from my office window. Civil Disobedience? Excellent. Chain yourself to a fence, lay in front of a buldozer, go limp when the cops arrest you or anything else non-violent. But when thugs start smashing the windows out of a business, throwing rocks, bottles and bricks from construction sites at the police, charging fences and barracades then your "protest" has turned into a riot because it uses violent tactics.
If you dish it out, expect to take it.
BTW. I don't think the phalanx of police acted very well during the protests last year either, but niehter did the protesters. If there were only "7" holigans in 4000 causing the problems at the MacDonalds as you say, why were they arrested by the police and not subdued by the 30 or 40 protesters who stood around and watched them (I watch CJOH too, you know)? I guess not everyone is interested in peaceful protest.
And how come the "Take the Capital" committee has outright refused to say they won't use violence or meet with the police to reasure everone involed that it will be non-violent?
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Ass wipe...there's going to be a big protest here in Ottawa too, right down the street from ME as well...And this IS the capital of Canada
Try reading a few posts first..
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
cancel the summit and hold it via wireless video conferencing
We're Canada.. routinely, public figures who are disgraced step down here (except the Prime Minister, the cute little Energizer Bunny he is). There's honour attached to most positions, not just spin and no-holds-barred political mongering.
Although, I fear that like locks on a door, jamming frequencies will only stop the honest people from communicating.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
In that case, your post is offtopic, since it's about the G8 meeting in Alberta dumbass.
Who in the US chooses not to have health insurance? I'm asking a very serious question here. The reality is that the ONLY people who "choose" not to have health insurance are the people who CAN'T have health insurance because they can't afford it. Similar observations can be made about property insurance, car insurance, etc. The "choice" in this case isn't a choice at all : It's a condition thrust on you by economic reality.
I don't want public roads, and I want them all to be toll roads (even my little side street). Can I have it? No? Oh right, it's against the common good. I want my kids to go to private school and I want public school abolished. Can I have it? No, of course I can't: It's against the common good. I don't want to pay TAXES, because what do I care if there's a military, or a fire fighting crew, or police : I live in a bunker and am a trained marksman, so why should I support the silly helpless victims out there? I could go on with examples of "socialism" in the mighty capitalist US of A, but I wouldn't want to upset any of the Slashdot freedom fighters who are so willing to brand Canada and Europe as "socialist" without looking in their own backgrounds, or understanding what they're really talking about.
Yeah, it's called democracy, and it's alive and well, and overwhelmingly Canadians support "socialist" health care (which, in reality, means "We all agree to buy into the big health insurance policy"). The people who make the choices are the electorate which goes to the polls and makes its feelings known.
Of course, as I mentioned in another post, the only Americans who "choose" not to have health insurance are the very poor who can't afford it. What a great choice.
Went hiking today in the area where the G8 will be held. The area is already closed off. The particluar mountain we went to was (just) outside the get-your-ass-arrested zone, but nevertheless we had to sign in and show id, and were cautioned not to get too close to the zone. There are black helicopters flying around (even over the city), often in groups of 3 in close formation. I don't even want to know what will happen during the actual summit. I'll also probably call in sick Thurs/Friday so I don't have to dodge protesters and pepper spray on my way to/from work.
I doubt the Pope's visit will get as much security, after all having 8 heads of the most powerful states in one convinient location must make for an awfully tempting target for anyone with an axe to grind.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
"Fair for all"? How so?
"Equality, in a social sense, may be divided into that of condition, and that of rights. Equality
of condition is incompatible with civilization, and is found only to exist in those communities that are but slightly removed from the savage state. In practice, it can only mean a common misery."
~ James Fenimore Cooper ~
Equality of rights == fairness. Any other definition of equality is imposing an unnatural and unnecessarily restrictive set of limitations on people's choices.
Higher Logics: where programming meets science.
I think part of the problem of implementing universal health care in the US was with the most recent big attempt to institute it. Under the wing of Mrs. Clinton, a bunch of people with no public accountability and with no public visibility, holed themselves up to make a proposal. When specific details were learned of the process, it killed it. I don't remember if even the names of most the people involved in it were released. The whole thing was just an exceedingly complex mess, with I believe two counter proposals, all three proposed systems of heath care were printed on a grand total of 2700 pages, so public confidence on it wasn't bolstered by that either.
It's much like when G.W. Bush formed an energy policy and tries to hide the list of people he consulted, one can imagine that one isn't too pleased with that.
Also, I really don't know if the "corporatized news media" is really involved in making people think that Canadian health care sucks, but really loose anecdotes spread around by callers and hosts of talk shows, and grass roots word of mouth. I don't remember reading a single newspaper article or TV news spot that really discussed the state of Canadian heath care.
This is a good one.
Dude, welcome to Canada, EVEN IF YOU HAVE A CELL PHONE you'll still DIE if you were due to die simply because the healthcare system in Canada is going down the drain. I am Canadian, this isn't a troll, it's a well known fact here.
Just 2 days ago in Quebec there was yet another story about how a guy that had a stroke died because one of the emergency that was 2 blocks from his house was closed and he needed to be transfered 50 miles further to get assistance, and he died during the trip. You guys in united states get "everyday news" about Israel and Terrorists" here we get the struggle between the prime minister and his ex-minister of finance goign for a powertrip, AND "how our healthcare system sucked today (tm)".
So even if you'd get your Cell phone, I'll still go with the previous comment saying that either cell or toll phone, if you are in a critical state, heh, you're toated.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Someone modded that post troll?
It's interesting how a certain relativist crowd tends to incorrectly mod down posts they disagree with politically. Read the mod FAQ folks. Troll has a definition, and it's not just stuff that is contrary to your sociopolitical bent.
*scoove*
It may be that the only purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others.
I am personally convinced that the various intelligence agencies prevent dozens of terrorist attacks per months, some of them probably of the 9/11 magnitude, without the public realizing simply because the government wants to keep those quiet (no need to shout wolf once the threat is defused).
If so then why have they been shouting wolf over and over again with the least amount of information? If they prevented so much as a bicycle accident they would be shouting it on every network in order to distract us from the bad press they've been receiving lately. The fact that they warn us to stay away from bridges that nothing happens to and they shout triumphantly that they have a "dirty bomber" in custody (as someone else said it well, this guy couldn't even hold a job at McDonald's). What crap.
MONITOR THE DAMN CEL PHONES.
That way you can KNOW exactly what the bad guys are saying to each other and go find them. Or get real advanced and triangulate their signal. Don't tell me if you have triads of back helicopters flying patrol over 100sq/km or so you can't afford 30 guys in a couple trailers with bugging gear. Legally, I think citezens would understand making an exception of monitoring laws/etc. in this case. It's not like here in the US where they would make a law in advance to be allowed to monitor the whole country all the time and "any attempt to circcumvent such protections..." AH sorry where was I? Oh yes, there is an understandable need for this measure. Any solution that causes more problems than remedies is nothing short of a Microsoft hack.
If I was in the area of G8 and I needed my cel phone for an emergency (such as someone got hurt, or maybe if I WANTED TO REPORT TERRORIST ACTIVITIES), and I was unable to use it due to this security solution's bug^H^H^Hfeature, I would hire a lawer and sue the everlasting bejesus out of whoever I could possibly hold responsible.
Including the states/countries whatever of the leaders who decided to meet in this area (even if I would lose).
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
I somehow don't believe that terrorists are really going to be stopped just because they can't call mom on the day. Do you really need to call or calibarate to explode a bomb made months beforehand and is strapped to your body?!
The communist rethoric isn't about quicking those "pesky foreigner" [sic] out of the country. The right wing rethroic such as Haider on the other hand is proponent of such discourse.
As for punishing the action (like you say punishing communist because of what Stalin did) then let us start punishing the christianty as a whole. After all what they did during crusadfe and inquisition... Might be construed as atleast as horrible. Morality : don't try to interdict people on the action of their forefather, but interdict them on their current action.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Most of the posts so far seem to ignore the fact that this is being held in Kananaskis, which is a provincial park, i.e. wilderness. This location was specifically chosen because of its isolation. I can't imagine that there will be many people affected by this aside from those participating in the summit in some fashion (including protesters).
--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." - Homer Simpson [1F10]
All the intelligence agency of the world would probably quickly report the terrorist attack they stopped to stop people cirtizing them they failed in the case of 9/11 and to get more funding to hunt the bad guys.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
This is slightly off topic, but well within this thread of conversation.
This is a common misconception many people hold about Section One of the Charter, namely that are rights can be sacrificed to promote a governmental agenda.
The Supreme Court has ruled that Section One limits attempts by government to create laws that do not promote or perpetuate a free and democratic society. If you read any of the Supreme Court decisions available on line, you will see Section One is usually the most quoted section of the Charter. This section has made it difficult to impossible for governments to pass laws that violate our rights as the onus is on the government to prove that the law in question:
- Is proportional to the wrong it is trying to alleviate
- Is the lease instrusive or least substantially infringing to the Charter
These are very high standards and the Court takes them extremely seriously.
Hey, your patriotic message on how much more free and successful our radio is sounds really sweet, especially to me, who has been trying to get a license for my low power radio station for over 5 years, but cannot get one, because the corporate radio lobbyists have shut down, at the CONGRESSIONAL LEVEL, all attempts the FCC has made to create a low power radio service.
The difference between the radio in Canada and the radio in America is minute. Here, the government forces control of the airwaves, just like they do in Canada. Instead, they do it in the companies' name. And if you think the top-10 money grubber radio stations are giving me a good, cultured return on MY investment, then you're nuts.
lacrosse is actually the national sport of canada..
i wonder if they are willing to jam all canadian lacrosse games, to prevent terrorism in canada.. because, most middle-eastern terrorists are avid lacrosse players and fans.. (a little known fact.)
i think that if they cut small holes in the net, that this would be a very effective way to disrupt terrorist play.. and if a few spectators are hurt from the ball, so be it.. it has stopped the cross-checking, fast-passing play that the terrorists love..
but, then again, they could cut large holes in the goal nets.. and this would prevent any major scoring that the terrorists could attempt..
wow, had we only known..
had our intelligence community gathered and properly interpreted the information on canadian lacrosse, and the angry band of terrorist players.. serious scoring could have been prevented..
stop lacrosse, and you stop terrorism..
i hate microsoft.
Go and actually read the article. This is partly PR stunt, and partly law enforcement just covering their collective asses. They have no idea what they'll actually use jamming for, they're just saber rattling.
In case you weren't aware, most countries don't actually give law enforcement blanket dispensation from prosecution. Police break the law every day: they speed, they break and enter, they inflict violence, they kill people. No country that I know of recognises in law the concept of a "license to kill". The point is that they aren't prosecuted for doing this, because it's not in the public interest.
However, when their activities effect enough people, it's in everyone's best interest to document what's considered reasonable behaviour, partly so that law enforcement know how far they can go before being prosecuted. Stop and search powers are the most obvious, as they (almost by definition) target people who are mostly innocent. In this case, this is just the initial step in the process. They're trying to ensure that they won't be prosecuted for jamming RF the first time they do it. That's why this is limited to two specific occasions. However, if they do cause public inconvenience (or, hopefully, if they receive too many claims for compensation and get bogged down in individual lawsuits), they'll back off and forget the whole thing.
So, sure, this is vile in principle, but in practice it'll likely be a one off that will vanish into the footnotes of history.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
United States, as public highways, old age security, public schools, police departments, fire departments, public health, any government agency, etc, is ALL SOCIALISM
You forgot hundreds of billions of dollars in transfer payments to farmers. (A truly captialistic system would have gotten rid of a lot of farmers as being functionally useless.)
Also, monopolized industries have little resemblance to a captialistic system. Central planning and central control (as of a monopoly) are cornerstones of a communistic system, although a government-run monopoly is theorietically for the benefit of citizens (rather than just shareholders).
as much as I dislike what they are doing here.. you have to remember something. And if you can't see this... go travel a bit.
There is no such thing as absolute freedom. There HAVE to be rules.
The playground those rules work in is an ever-changing landscape.
No law covers all cases.
The point is.. if doing this briefly during something requiring very high security helps them, that's not too big a deal, as long as the order to do it is only for this event.
No, I'm not being complacent. Yes, I know that ' rights are eroded slowly'. But just because seomthing that wasn't done before is done now doesn't mean that's happening.
European nations, and Canada, tend to be more apt to do something as a short-term solution but not use it again and again in order to meet a goal. The US tends to do something once, then do it forever.
Remember, the law is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
Exactly, it is force, just as Americans don't have the choice not to have the law applied on their property, nor can they run sweat shops, nor can they decide that they no longer want to pay taxes, or that their children shouldn't go to school. There are basic fundamentals, such as health care, that are just a given with any reasonably advanced nation, and most such nations decided that health care could only be excluded as a basic, natural service if greed were a deciding factor.
John Adams said Anyone who wants to give up freedom for security deserves neither freedom, nor security. Our freedom is our security.
Boy, if that isn't being a little dramatic. Reread the original article, you'll find that even though the jammers are being permitted, they're to operate with at minimal time over minimal range over minimal bandwidth. They're not going to be on the entire duration of the G8 conference or of the Pope's visit. Your reaction is a lot like assuming that because the RCMP are permitted to use horses that someone is going to slip in horse manure & sue the Canadian federal government about it.
Allegedly real newspaper headline from 1998:
Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
These are people that support policies that keep the world poor, and slow the adoption of all kinds of technology worldwide. Hell, some of them actually advocate returning the entire world's populace to subsistence farming.
You'd think jamming these people's radios would be doing them a favor, introducing some much-needed logical consistency to their "arguments"!
ROFLMAO,
I fully expected some simpleminded modarator to mod that post down.
Get it right! That was a pure and simple flame attached to a flamebait post, tho' I shouldn't expect the politically correct crowd to understand a nuance like that. Not something that told the cold hard unvarnished truth about modern liberalism's value system.
Free Speach for all who agree with you, isn't that the essance of political correctness?
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
You are confusing multiple things here.
There are consumer rights and constitutional rights.
Lets take the example of buying an album. In America it was deemed that a certain age is required. But once you get to that age you can buy no matter what it says on it. However, in other countries if it says the wrong thing you cannot buy it no matter the age. THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.
America is not trampling on your rights, but simply saying you have to be a certain age. This is only natural because law has determined an age of when you have become a full citzen, which is allowed to excercise their rights as a citizen.
About things like DMCA, etc, well again confusing the issue. This is about copyrights and not about constitutional issues.
As a non-American an American programmer (who knows American history, law, constitution, etc) explained to me the differences. In Canada and European countries those differences are smudged to one and the same. Hence why you confused the issues in your posting.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Another simpleminded member of the PC crowd shows his cluelessness while modarating based on political content.
That post was OFFTOPIC exposure of the shallow joke called modern Liberalism's lack of credibility in the area of freedom of speach.
Thanx for proving my point by using your Mod points as a coward's way of avoiding debating the subject.
Freedom of Speach ONLY for those who agree with you, isn't that the essance of political correctness?
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
I was one of the protesters in this particular protest. The reason was largely that in Canada, there is nothing resembling a national opposition party, and probably won't be for the next 5 years.
I understand that it caused a good deal of inconvenience, as we intended. But... I'm a geek, and I value far, far more the fact that people are up in arms and actually talking about issues that haven't ever been discussed publicly before. I'm inconvenienced too, all the time, by teacher strikes and TTC strikes, corrupt politicians (we have them) and under motivated bureaucrat -- The damage that was caused, will always be less than what you see on TV because violence sells, it'll always be more interesting than my take on Bretton Woods. In the protest here, there was littering (in Ottawa this is nothing new) and more graffiti than usual (though much of it was chalk) and a few windows broken -- always belonging to organizations (like McDonalds) that could swallow the loss in a heartbeat.
I don't want to ramble, but the point is that if you belive what many of us do -- that corporate behaviour is actually killing people, than I would sooner condemn them for staying at home when they could make the slightest difference. If you disagree with the reasons they are acting then, by all means, lets argue, let's talk. But we don't, rather we hadn't. There are people (in this thread) who claim that violence never solves anything. First off, if vandalism is violent, most crimes are, that's a word I like to reserve for times when people are hurt. But secondly, we can't always appease. There will always be people willing to take things by force who will need to be repelled by force. We let Hitler walk all over us, then (at tremendous cost) pushed him back to end in triumphant cries of "never again." Then we ignored Rwanda, and it happened again.
We aren't claiming to have a perfect solution, but we have and will continue to push for an imperfect discussion.
My list of multiplayer
First off, no one seems to know or care much about a) the ariticle in question, or b) jamming methods. /perhaps/, the move by the RCMP has /something/ to do with 9-11, and the fact that there are hundreds of people out there willing to sacrifice themselves to take out tens of thousands of innocents.
The article pointed out that the RCMP are not allowed to block either cell phones or commerical radio broadcasts. (More likely to get complaints from interrupting NPR than interrupting the notoriously unreliable cell-phone network.)
As for responsiblility, how about the responsiblility the organizers of past protests should assume for forcing these measures onto the police. If, to maintain some kind of control over the situation, the RCMP and others need to block radio, tv, cell, or other freqs, all power to them. If someone dies because of that, the responsiblity falls on the anarchic fools who seek to bring down the very institutions that give them their voice.
Look at Seattle, look at Genoa, and Switzerland before that. Shutting down business, closing roads, vandalism, fires, riots. THESE things are far more of a danger to the regular people than interrupted ham or family band communications.
I have heard no attempt to apologize to the bystanders in these useless confrontations. So I seriously doubt there is anyone sensible, or responsible enough among the 'valiant', 'couragous' (more accurately, vagrant) protesters to assume responsibility.
I also find it cute, that this indignation stems from the overblown egos of the whiner groups. Perhaps, just
Will you compainers out there please step back and think about this more clearly?
#-#
Ad Astra Per Aspera
A rough road leads to the stars
Since you so clearly agree that someone can decide what is more important for someone else, please understand that my need to get to the match in time is far more important than your boring, pointless little protest. So me doing 60 straight into and through the crowd, killing lots of stupid people is going to be perfectly reasonable. It really pisses me off when they people are so petty. This isn't a protest, its about real things, like 'soccer' (and to take a more straight face, the only person ever who didn't deserve a punch in the face for calling football that is Jon Hare) matches.
"And these protests have meant something -- for one, it's meant that the leaders of the 8 most important countries are having a clandestine meeting in the wilderness."
Sure. By that logic, Al-Qaieda's cause HAS to mean something, or Bush wouldn't spend money and lives hunting them down.
Either you are against protest altogether, or you have to accept that someone will crash a planeload of passengers into your office, apparently.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Subject line says it all.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
I'm in a bit of an activist mood this morning, so let me rhetorically ask a question. Is protesting, and peaceful resistence in general doomed? (let's take protesting to mean the legal, peaceful acts allowed by the constitution, not setting cars on fire)
Peaceful resistence is predicated on the notion that by evoking a brutal backlash on the non-voilent, the population at large will be called to attention. This seemed to work for example, when the British were cracking skulls open with big brass-tipped staves. But, through the wonders of technology, *peaceful protest* might now be threated. We have new inventions in the hands of the police, military, etc., which can stop a protest *without* violence: guns that shoot rubbering gooey stuff, guns that remotely electrically stun/disable people, technology with can direct sound, and make people nautious and throw up on command, or can specifically target and cancel sound. Yeah, it might sound callous because now the police won't really be hurting people or running them over with trucks ("oops") and shooting them and stuff. But it also means that protesting will be useless. You can't get your opinions heard because you will be silenced, stunned, and disabled remotely and effortlessly.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
As soon as a Canadian citizen has lived abroad for 2 years, all of his rights are taken away; only the passport remains [1]; no more voting rights, social security coverage or anything else left.
Canada is also a country that sees fit to consider over half of East Europe as potentialy dangerous, refusing its citizens entry into Canada, even when it's the case of folk musicians and dancers supposed to accompany the Estonian PM for a diplomatic visit in Canada. In retaliation, those East European countries make it excessively complicated and costly for Canadians to visit. Meanwhile, Americans and EU citizens can pretty much go anywhere they want without a visa.
Whoever thinks Canada has ever been a democratic country is seriously brain-dead. With its "first past the poll" electoral system and campain financing laws that purposely cap the maximum amount non-traditional parties can spend on advertising, Canada has always guaranteed that traditional parties remain in power, in alternance, while preventing minority voices to even as much as get heard, let alone ever getting any seat at the Parliament in Ottawa.
Taking the above facts into consideration, I consider myself a slave of the Canadian government, being forced to retain its annoying citizenship, which causes me more troubles than I can bear and yet gives me no benefit whatsoever, while simultaneously being prevented from acquiring citizenship by an increasingly foreigner-hostile European Union. Unfortunately for Canada, Russia is an easy place to sell a Canadian passport that is still valid and an even easier place to get lost. Fortunately for me, I speak Russian and live less than an hour from the border of the St-Petersburg district. [2] You do the math.
[1] Let alone the fact that getting a new passport from abroad is a serious pain in the ass, since they let the nowhereland called Quebec impose complicated procedures for proving one's birthplace, without requiring the said nowheremen to establish a system to have it all handled by the Canadian Embassies abroad, pretty much forcing one to temporarily return to Canashit to handle it all in person.
[2] Too bad the cold war is over. With such a hatered for Canada, a taste for anything expansive and exotic, a knack for languages, not to mention excellent IT skills, I would have been the perfect double agent. *sigh*
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
That's why insurance companies and HMOs fight tooth and nail to be able to deny people treatments
I've always been fascinated at the notion that insurance companies and HMOs "deny people treatments". All they can do is refuse to pay for treatments. And if they do, you can always pay for the treatment yourself. While living without health insurance once or twice in my life, I have found no difficulty in getting any treatment I needed...
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
I am forced to assume you are a cop by your statements
Not me. Just had some training is all.......
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I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
still ticking you off?? Get over it there's that word "Invited" again -- maybe you should consult a dictionary-- i suggest the OED --double dumbass yourself :-)
How large is the area they want to jam? If it crosses over the US border, well, they've got a biiig problem.
[insert witty comment here]
>...ould be able to take her safety into her own hands by carrying a gun she spent the time receiving traini...
:)
Ok. go ahead and jam radio during the events, to stop terrorists. But also allow everyone there to carry a gun. That way the whouldbe terrorists and violent demonstrators could do no dammage whatsoever.
FRA: STFU GTFO