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Billionaire Boys Cup (America's Cup 2003)
morpheus 2001 writes "Wired has a story on
the fight to win the America's Cup
2003, a sailing race held every 3 years. The story carries the
title 'Billionaire Boys Cup', referring to both the competitors and the millions of dollars that it now takes to field a team. This time around the two US teams pit Craig McCaw and Larry Ellison against each other using their respective technological prowess to beat each other and the rest of the world.
The story mentions that all of the teams competing will drop collectively over $700 million, with $30 - 40 million to be spent on R&D (per team)
alone. The story gives an excellent description of how the use of technology and massive databases work in concert to give a team an edge of mere seconds, which can be the difference between winning and losing a race."
If Ellison's boat has any incidents, will he still be able to claim that it's "Unbreakable"?
An uneducated response here to be certain, but i got mana to burn so here goes...
30-40M R&D, at the end of the day, if the wind don't blow, the wind don't blow, no amount of R&D will make the wind blow.
... and I mean that: Formula One is boring.
Bringing in all sorts of high tech crap to make your boat/car go faster is one thing.
Sailing using your hands, eyes and ears instead, is something entirely different.
Given the choice between watching a bunch of Rich Borgs re-compile their trim calculation program in between tacks, and watching real men sale real boats, I'd take the real boats.
And I come from Perth (near Fremantle). We were *proud* to have made a technological dent in the history of the America's Cup, but frankly I think it was a bad, bad day when technology trumped the Americans. It just gave them fodder they needed to destroy the true spirit of sports like this.
Americas Cup = Formula One = Robo Wars. Same thing, different toys.
Yawn.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Until it bluescreens and blows up his boat, you mean.
Is that all the deckhands make 80K/yr, MINIMUM.
Yoink!
That worked so well for the Soviet Union.
the REAL story is the parties! I grew up near Newport, RI where the race had been held until the Aussies won the Cup with their very controversial hull/keel design. The design gave them the winning edge, but it also caused some major litigation. Anyway, I digress. In a race year, the streets/bars/etc. of Newport were PACKED with people all having a great time partying. The race itself may be boring to many people, but if it still creates the kinds of parties I remember, it is worth all the money spent (so long as I am not footing the bill).
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Sailing in competition has always been about technology. Raw speed is closely tied to the shape of the hull, rigging etc.
Of course tactics, knowledge / better prediction of the weather and sheer luck are also factors, but none of them are as important as how fast your ship is. In the long run the fastest ship with a competent shipper wins.
Just the fact that it looks more high tech these days doesn't mean technology wasn't there before
beauty is only a light switch away
$700 million would feed a lot of poor dot commers that used Oracle and went bust. But then again, Larry Ellison is going to have a really good time racing a sailing boat, so I guess it balances out. Go Larry!!!
Witch is the best?
:)
1: Make good database software.
2: Charge for it.
3: Profit!
or:
1: Make mediocre database.
2: Don't charge for it.
3: Bancrupt!
What do you all think?
I think he was kidding/attempting satire.
(Please someone confirm he was kidding/attempting satire...!)
I agree. I think infinity is a legitimate upper limit. The solution to poverty is not stealing from Peter to pay Paul but to bring captialism and democracy to all countries. You will notice that poor nations are those with dictators and tyrants not Presidents and Prime Ministers.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
...I like to point out, that most sailors I know (that includes myself) are not really interested in the AC. There're races wchich are way more demanding, no matter if you look at the technology or the human efforts.
Sure thing, these machines are really awesome, at least for 5 hours of consecutive sailing.
But the the real thing, at least in my opinion, are long distance races.
The Volvo Ocean Race, Cape Town - Rio, Jules Verne Trophy and so on.
The greatest thing about the AC is not the real sailing but the High Tech Stuff that drips down to other races and classes.
So, I was in a hurry and didn't double-check, so sue me...
Still stand by my point: The use of technology in sports kills the sport every time.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Unless Slashdot has abandoned it's focus on geeky things like computers, Linux, sci-fi, and cool gadgets, and instead is switching to political commentary about the have's and the have-not's, I don't see how this story belongs here.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
So, my question is, what would you recommend as a desktop which is Icaza- and stupidity-free? I.e., I want a desktop as I used to have. I guess what I'm really asking is -- what is a good window manager? All the integrated desktops give me (that I actually use) is a pretty task bar..
if this information trickles down. I think it woudl be a great thing for our environment, and for third world countries, is sailing ships could be made using this new technology that would be as fast and as reliable as turbine ships.
I believe the Japanese have experimented a little with this, and a sailing merchant ship plays a major role in Kim Stanley Robinsons ecotopia book set in California (I forget the name).
A. Rightmann
Are you saying we don't have poor poverty stricken people in the USA? Are you saying we have true capitalisim here? Are you saying we have true democracy here?
ZERO ZERO ONE ZERO ONE ZERO ONE ONE! Just brushing up for my next big invention: Ethernet over Voice (EoV)
Must be hard up for news and/or stuff that matters today. Besides which, I read this story when I got my issue of Wired. It was boring then, it's boring now. I don't mean to troll, there's probably a small percentage of /.'ers that find this kind of story interesting. There's just been a sorry lack of interesting content appearing on /. as of late. It's unfortunate!
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
First of all, capitalism can only happen in an ideal world, just as communism, neither has even been practised in reality.
Second of all, what is passed as capitalism and democracy does not cure powerty, take a look around, I can see tons of poor people in the western countries.
But thinking that the "rich" is the reason for poverty is taking the easy way out, just like Hitler blamed the Jews or Bin Laden and his brainwashed follows thinks that america is the reason why so many suffers in the middle east.
I have my own theories as to why the world is the way it is, but I will keep that to myself.
Totally unrelated but much more to subject, $700 million could probably build you one really neat OS. When will there be an American Cup in OSes???
I remember the hoopla last America's Cup when the CEO of Progressive Insurance, Peter Lewis, got caught with pot and hash coming into NZ. A wonderful example of how the rich get treated differently than regular schmooes, he was able to buy his way out with a clean record and reporting his name was censored in NZ by the judge at the time.
m
Oh those rich with nothing better to do!
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0008/S00166.ht
Obsessing over money 'we'* don't have?
Somebody over as OSDN must have had to pay bills last night.
* = That would be the Royal We.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
NZ is gonna kick yo ass anyways!
Yes, everyone here is most rich under the glorious leadership of President Hussein! Viva la revolution!
We have the richest poor people in the world in America -- our public housing comes with basic cable. Most of US poverty is related to extreme stupidity, drug use and mental illness -- not due to economic conditions within our nation. If you want to see poverty, head over to the third world. We do not have 100% capitalism due to the New Deal policies which the Democratic party keeps voting to keep in place. And no we do not have true democracy, I should have said Republic. If we had a true Democracy, we could just vote the poor out of the country since the middle class and rich out number the poor by a large majority.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Wonder how much that cost the tax payers.
This is not the sig line you are looking for... -- Old Jedi Sig Line Trick
... and before the 2 US teams can even try to compete against New Zealand for the Cup, one of them needs to win the Louis Vitton Cup, against all other challengers.
Only then does the winner get to sail against the Kiwi defenders.
Take a look outside those borders - there's more to the America's Cup than 2 yanks with too much money.
-- You can't give it, you can't even buy it, and you just don't get it!
For that kind of money they should just buy a boat with an engine. Of course that's America for ya.
-makoffee
with a big ol' penguin on the sale...Captain Torvolds...with first mate Perens painting "GNU Boat" on the back as they sail into the sunset...
Back to work now!
Yes, we have a name for them. Lazy idiots. One of easiest things to do in a Western country is break the poverty line. That's why floods of people from non-Western countries flock to the US and Europe. They are not lazy idiots but suffer from economic oppression in their home countries. If they can do it, not knowing our language, culture or geography, why can't a bunch of white people do it?
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
"Simon Says, Fuck You" - George Carlin
Agreed.
Sailing around the world, alone, in 100 days is a lot more exciting than any Americas Cup. And it doesn't have the jingoistic aspects either.
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Only during the challenger series, which is probably the most important and interesting part of the whole event because after that Team New Zealand will simply beat them 5-nil just like last time.
Welcome to New Zealand... more sheep than anyone else, more water than anyone else (yes that includes your country because our territory simply goes out a long way!). So we're sheep shearing champs and sailing champs.
Did you notice all the cool geeky stuff that goes into making the boats faster? Massive amounts of databases Alpha Super Computers, the buying up of all the wifi around Aukland. Sounds geeky to me.
Also your defintiion of news for nerds may != mine despite us both being nerds. That's what makes the world grand correct?
I mod down any one who says "I'm sure I will get modded down for this"
Yes, the poor countries have tyrants and dictators. Of course, the U.S. Government put those tyrants and dictators into power...
Capitalism RELIES on cheap, almost-slave labor. All those poor countries are poor because we WANT them to be. Makes our products cheap, makes the corporations cheaper.
I'm not saying that the wealth doesn't need to be spread more evenly- it does. But to imply that "democracy and capitalism will solve poverty!" is naive in the extreme.
then usually it doesn't blow for both boats. They suspend the race below a certain wind speed...
It doesn't matter how much technology is on the boat or how many computers, you still sail with your hands, eyes, ears, and instincts.
Technology gives you improved perception-- a better idea of what the wind is likely to do, better knowledge of what the wind is doing mid mast rather than just on the deck or at the top, a better idea of what sail trim you should have....
But you still have to use your mind, body and muscles to execute the excellent control over the boat necessary. You make it sound like they could sit at home and tell the boats to sail themselves. They probably could if they outfitted the boats with the autopilot stuff that's available, but they would LOSE and LOSE BAD if they did.
I'm not the biggest fan of sailboat racing-- I think boats are more fun cruising around away from the mass of humanity-- but I have raced and I have raced on relatively high tech boats at a level that -- if sailing were as popular as football is-- would be televised.
All the technology in the world can only give you an idea of what the current situation is with the wind, water, and boat. But you can't win a race knowing the current situation-- to win you have to know the best tactics and use the your best judgement about whats *going to happen* to change the current situation, and execute those tactics flawlessly.
The televised america's cup racing I've seen has been a blast, and rather exciting-- I just wish they gave us more on the boat coverage and less quick cutting of the races.... to hear the crew chatter about tactics and where they think the wind is going to go during a race and then to see how it actually goes and how they handle it would be wonderful.
But so it goes. Sailing is one of the last competitive sports where so much technology is *necessary* to compete at that level, but still so ineffective compared to the human level. Ball games are low tech, hockey is low tech. Technology doesn't matter for them. Formula one racing-- technology makes a huge difference but you know where the track is and you just go-- and there's one driver so he has perfect coordination of his actiosn.
With sailing you have to have both the best technology and the best human brains and the best coordination of your team in order to win. IF you seriously lack any of those, then you loose.
You're wrong-- The americas cup is still about real sailors. Anyone who enters the americas cup without the stamina and fearlessness and judgment of a free climber combined with the technical prowess of your average programmer is going to loose.
It is not a sport for the idle wealthy, weak, easily scared or technically ignorant.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
how much the average time for completing the race has changed in years since they've started using computers to design their systems
Instead of pissing away millions on a boat race, maybe the boys should try:
1) Racing each other to a cure for HIV
2) Pitting each other's alternate energy generators against each other in a wide variety of environments
3) Seeing who can feed the largest number of starving people in the third world in a year
4) A competition to donate money to failing urban schools (and NOT for bloody computers)
etc...
Watching One Design races is much more interesting on these short (less than several days) races. Every boat is identical so its purely down to the skill of the sailors. This makes for tight races rather than the first race making clear who has the best boat.
And for real interest watch old working boats racing, slow as hell and there is always a crash or near crash.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
With Oracle doing about as poor as every other IT software company, and layoffs being the norm. I'm glad to see Larry is focusing his time and efforts on a f'sking boat race. Probably pulled a MCI/Tyco and got an interest free loan from Oracle to build the worlds most expensive sail boat.
Awesome!
I believe, and someone correct me if so, that the boats chosen for the AC are decided by the defending nation. The use of 12 meter boats and the rules determining what a 12 meter boat is can be negotiated. This race could be held using no technology at all are require the use of wooden Beetle Cats, or outriggers for that matter. But I think the technology is more what this race has now become. Sorry to say it might not ever show up in my backyard again.
No, Capitalism happens in the real world. No idealism is necessary for it. That's one of the big differences between it and communism. Its robust, it is not based on any assumptions about human nature, only on market forces.
Market forces happen in a lillypond with no human involvement-- too many flys means too many frogs, next season there are not enough flies.
Capitalism HAPPENS IN NATURE.
The reason you see tones of poor people in western countries is all the efforts to cure poverty. In the US they've spent 3 trillion dollars with the excuse of curing poverty and they have only made it worse. Eliminate the taxes and poverty will go away in a generation. Counter intuitive, but true. The only way to eliminate poverty is to have people have JOBS. Giving them money only makes the situation worse. and taxing others to get the money to give them, just removes money from the economy that would otherwise be CREATING JOBS.
The proof that capitalism doesn't require an ideal world is that it still survives quite well in our country run by neo-communist liberals and neo-fascist conservatives-- both of whom oppose freedom and deomocracy. Hell, capitalism worked in russia-- it was always breaking out. And China has found that its the only solution to their economic woes and so they are embracing it. Now if they'd only embrace freedom as well.
This idea that Capitalism only works in an ideal world is just as stupid as insisting that the earth is flat, and should not be tolerated.
Don't be stupid. Study economics.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
Err... While Bin Laden is a nutter and his followers are too you must accept that America _is_ the reason that many people in the Middle East are suffering.
Just to give two obvious examples: Uncle Sam insists on proping up a ruthless dictatorship in Saudi Arabia because the West needs their oil and he likes to support the Israeli repression of the Palestinians too (its a vote winner apparently).
I was as horrified by September the 11th as anyone but come on! These things do happen for a reason. Do something about it.
Oh... And the hypocracy of the US going on an anti terrorism binge after allowing the IRA (Irish Republican Army) to fundraise on their territory for years probably went over your head too.
Thanks.
It's De-Monay! De-Monay! Say it!
Lets see how many get the reference.
We have the richest poor people in the world. Our poorest are richer than the average person in many countries.
And when you look at it, you notice that the difference between this country and those is that they were not free, or not capitalistic for the last 100 years.
You could line every country up based on how much democracy, freedom and capitalism has-- from very much to almost none. And whne you do so, you can then look at the average standard of living.
Without exception the average standard of living is a proxy for how free and capitalistic the country is.
That's why, say, france is poorer than the US-- rather free, but too socialistic and it hurts their economy.
To bring it on topic, France has a great boat building industry (worlds' supplier of luxury catamarans) and a hell of a sailing industry as well, second only to england in sailing tradition (or maybe ahead of england). But their America's cup competitors are less able to draw on the resources of large companies because they have fewere large companies.
In a sense, socialism will probably cause france to loose the americas cup again!
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
Like the guy who made Bag End out of Lego. That fucking mattered...
the teams competing will drop collectively over $700 million
thats $100Million more than the United States gives to all of Africa in Aid each year... (but less than a quarter of the aid to Isreal... odd that.. most of wich is spent on good-old-yankee arms and such anyway...)
hmmmm, priorities...
It seems that you didn't bother to read the article.
A substantial part of the R&D budget goes to weather prediction. More specifically, the design and use of sophisticated sensors to feed a neural net. Doesn't matter?
The actual design (hull+sail) follows principles of GAs. Of course, because precise computer modeling is not currently possible, the fitness function is evaluated through actual test runs. It seems that a significant amount of database mining is also involved here. Doesn't matter?
Granted the article at wired does not really go into detail (or even necessarily mention) these things, but that is why you *think* while you read. Accurate forecasting tools and efficient optimizing techniques seem like things that will matter in the future.
And geeky? I think that spending massive amounts of money for relatively minor progress qualifies.
-- jetlag
How about +1 Funny!?
Capitalism RELIES on cheap, almost-slave labor.
Actually that was the line fed during the cold war to people in poor countries, but it is not true.
Capitalism relies on finding more efficient ways to produce something through the works of a free market and competition. As material goods become cheaper the wealth of society and individuals in it increases.
People with capital have power, and as other people with power do, they often abuse it by invading countries, or underpaying for labour whenever they can get away with it, but that is equally true of the people who belonged to the aparatchik in the USSR or to the ruling classes in other non-capitalist countries.
Am I the only one that finds it interesting that Forbes didn't mention this as one of the ways to spend a billion dollars?
Must've been a slip-up there somewhere.
www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
then Vice President George Bush, to Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines, 1981.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
America is not this rich or powerfull because of capitalism, freedom, liberty etc.
...
There are other factors involved here. America is one of the biggest countries in the world. Unlike other big countries like russia, canada etc most of america is inhabitable.
Again, America is a *recent* country. So it does not the problems ( population to name one )associatated with *old* countries like china, india
Please consider all factors before jumping to a conclusion.
Wealth should not be spread like butter on white bread, it should be earned either through labor or smart investing. Democracy/Republic and Capitalism has been proven to solve poverty. When it is practiced, people prosper. Communism, Socialism, Fascism and Monoarchies all fail their citizens. The third world is chuck full of those ideologies.
The falicy of the "Rich get richer and the poor get poorer" has invaded so many minds because of our anti-Western culture education system. In fact, the last 50 years of human existance has seen nearly 50% of the world's population reach a "middle class" income level of the average Portuguese citizen. No other time in history have that many people been able to have leisure time on our planet.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
. Of course, the U.S. Government put those tyrants and dictators into power...
Really? We put the taliban in power in afganistan and saddam in power in iraq?
Only if you think we're responsible for everything that happens in the world.
Those countries are not kept poor because we want them to be-- you don't understand economics. Those countries being rich is what we wnat htem to be-- then we could sell them everything.
Imagine if the average income of every person in china trippled overnight-- it would not only be great for china, fueling their economy, but would create the largest growth in US stocks we've ever seen in a matter of weeks. Because they'd all have money to buy our stuff.
Capitalism combined with democracys is the ONLY THING that's ever solved poverty. To deny it is to flat out deny reality. Look at india-- it had a socialist planned economy after independance for many years, and went nowhere. In the last 20 years they have moved to a capitalist economy and the *AVERAGE INCOME* of an indian (including ALL THE POOR PEOPLE) has DOUBLED in 20 years.
Democracy and capitalism are curing poverty in India. Why won't you let them do so here?
The idea that wealth "needs" to be spread evenly or that capitalism is unfair is nieve-- and a bill of goods sold to you by people who want your money.
The difference between them and capitalists is they use guns, and capitalists use free choice-- you don't have to buy their products, but you have to pay taxes. The "war on poverty" is an excuse to get you to not complain when you pay-- but don't be so stupid to start believing that crap.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
A boat race was certainly not my idea on a good way to blow a billion dollars...
Because the actual racing is just "follow the leader". Passes are very rare. Boring compared to NASCAR racing
Sorry, its not my responsiblirty, nor is there bandwidth here to educate you in economics.
But you should go take some courses if you really care about this subject.
I find it interesting that you can say things that are flat out wrong, and known to be wrong by everyone with a basic economics understanding, without providing any reason or evidence to support them.
But when I point out that this is wrong, you demand proof.
You engage in a wholesale denial of reality-- look at india which has eliminated more poverty in the last 20 years than the US ever has, in terms of number of people-- and insist that I prove to you that the world exists.
And on top of that you try to insult me-- as if it wasn't patently obvious that you don't have a reasoned response, you have to try and get a dig in there to prove it.
Heh.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
ecotopia book? Jeez, mental masturbation for eco-nuts? That is SO GAY. Get off it, the tech in the article is toys for big boys, it won't "help the environment" in any way, shape, or form. Besides, if sailing ships did make a comeback (YEAH, RIGHT) the eco-nuts would get up in arms about the ships disturbing the climate by slurping up wind meant for crops in Gambia, etc. Just look at the opposition to wind power.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Only two are mentioned in the article because it is about billionaires. Dennis Conner is heading a challange by the New York Yacht club - Stars and Stripes
Pray tell, what would a bunch of former nomadic tribesmen in a desert be doing without western Capitalism's need for oil?
Oh, right. Still wandering around in the desert. An 11th century lifestyle might be fine for Osama, but it's not good enough for me.
Nor, I suspect, is it good enough for even the poorest of us. How come Japan (every city bombed to ash) and Hong Kong (a pathetic trading outpost) have become economic powerhouses, and Israel (probably the only goddamn place in the middle east without oil!) have managed to increase their citizens' standard of living while that of the Middle East continues to stagnate?
A hint might lie in the economic systems of the countries in question. One of these economic systems is not like the others.
> I was as horrified by September the 11th as anyone but come on! These things do happen for a reason. Do something about it.
You mean, something like "sieze the oil fields for our own use, since it's Capitalism that knew what the oil was good for, Capitalism that turned ugly pools of hydrocarbons into skyscrapers and airplanes and automobiles and color TVs and $0.99 cheeseburgers and $99 bottles of wine, and Capitalism that's raised the standard of living in every country it's ever been tried, and to hell with any two-bit tinpot prince and religious crackpot who stands in our way?"
Sure. I'm willing to do something. Where do I sign up, and when do we start?
Actually, scratch that. I "sign up" for that war every day, and I "start" when I go to work in the morning and guzzle down a cup of adrenaline. I do it with [the $0.60 I have left after Uncle Sam's looters steal "their" part from] every dollar I earn, and every dollar of profit my employer earns.
How about Milton Friedman? How about John Maynard Keynes? Eddie George? George Soros?
Do you really believe that 100 years of economic thought has produced a consensus as unified as you make out, and as abjectly cretinous as the one you put forward?
No, even you're not that dumb.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
With 30 or 40 million I could wire every classroom, buy new text books, and complete ALL needed repairs for every school in Orange County.
And I would have enough left-over that we could re-introduce the school lunch program... but I know, I know it's important to show the youth of America that we can win the cup.
that nobody's linked this yet.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
As we've come to call it, the America's Cup happens every four years, not three as stated. The race right now is the Louis Vuitton which may be thought of as the 'playoffs' - it will yield one challenger to the current holder of the "100 Guinea Cup." Eleven 'syndicates' (representing eight countries) will compete against each other with nineteen boats.
Its not thought that proves a point, its action. In the last 100 years, the countries that have adopted a capitalist economic system have prospered and those that have adopted nanny-state socialism and planned-economy communism have failed. That's why former Russia was a failure with communism and modern Russia is kicking economic butt with capitalism--got to love their flat tax system...stolen from Reagan Republicans no less!
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Why can't billionaires compete to see who can feed the most starving children, build the most affordable housing or cure the most diseases?
First, many people are ignorant. Stupidity is not the same as ignorance. You are may ignorant, but not stupid. How does ignorance relate to poverty? An example occurred in my city last year. A black high school student at a school in a poor area of town applied for a scholarship. It is generally accepted that she had a very good chance to receive the scholarship. However, she did not have access to a typewriter, so the application had to be hand printed. Because the application was hand printed, the school counselor did not submit the application. The parents should have known to find a typewriter, but they were ignorant of the consequences.
In my own life, information keeps me out of poverty even without a job. I know where to buy cheap food, I know were to buy cheap clothes, I know how to make things that I cannot afford to buy. My family knows how to play the money game to create wealth.
Second, the U.S. is a very rich country. However the wealth is very top heavy. First, though out public housing is good, it is not adequate. For instance, according to this Harvard University article, the waiting time is three to seven years in Boston. Boston housing may be a bit scarce, but it is really not much different in other major cities. In my neck of the woods, public housing has been systematically destroyed over the past 5 years.
As far as drug use is concerned, I know people who use drugs. Some of them have money, some of them don't. Some then can support $1000 a week habits legally, some can't. We see the poor crack users on TV because the rich cocaine users won't let the cameras into the country club.
Money is not distributed equally. I am not going to get into a argument about what money is where, and how much should be where. Suffice it to say that this 1999 census report indicates that a black household earns about 62 cent for every dollar a white household earns. Some of this may be education, because a high school education earns you about 64 cent for every dollar a graduate of a 4-year college earns, but that only applies if you believe black people are stupid. It is hard to get into college if you scholarship application is discarded by your counselor.
Finally, I am well aware of third world countries. People are not necessarily poor. The people I know are very rich. We have cars, mansions, country houses, chauffeurs, maids, everything. What is missing is a vibrant middle class. Your most ignorant statement is we could just vote the poor out of the country. The middle class is a drain on the rich. The poor are their servants. The middle class are the stockholders that are complaining to Washington about the stick scandals that destroyed their pensions. The rich are the one complaining to Washington that their sweetheart deals and multi-million retirement pensions are being outlawed. The middle class are the union workers demanding higher wages that can cut company profits. The rich are the one create fictitious trades to keep the stock up so that their enormous compensations are justified. The poor do nothing but work, consumer, sleep and die. The poor are no threat rich, so why would the rich bother to align themselves with the middle class, the exact people who threaten the prosperity of the rich, to expel a perfectly harmless and useful group?
If you are going to make blanket statement, at least cite some real references.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
' last 50 years of human existance has seen nearly 50% of the world's population reach a "middle class" income level of the average Portuguese citizen. '
Since when did Portugal become the standard of excellence we measure against? I think I smell some trickery here.
"Rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is backed up by hard numbers in many studies I've seen. What makes you say it's a fallacy? The thing I'm looking at is the relative gap between the rich and the poor and that does seem to be growing. In the US of course... I have no idea what you Portugese fellers are up to.
Yeah, it really makes you feel great about the government spending your tax dollars to protect these guys' 7- to 10-figure incomes when they drop hundreds of millions of dollars to win a boat race. Have fun boys.
Except Sweden, postwar France (mostly), the UK (now), Germany (now) &c &c &c
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Must be nice to spend more than I will ever make in my lifetime on a boat race....
How much does Oracle cost again? I honestly have no need for it, but I have the sudden urge to warez it.....
oh wait that will cost the industry billions - better not since we wouldn't get to watch a million dollar boat race.....
i'm jealous.
Ave Molech Setting
...about offshore powerboat racing I heard somewhere:
"It's like sitting in the shower burning 50 pound notes"
And you have the even better example of allmost all the forign workers that I know they come over to get soso jobs coding etc live as cheaply as possible why sending reasonable sums of money home and investing remember you can live well in india on a modest investment income. 600 a month in Mexico makes you middle class (bottom end) lots of people have figured out skilled labor is generaly in demand and paid well move to the rich country suck it up for a few years and retire to a nice life. Most people on the planet are downright lazy to much TV to little chores while being raised to much leisure time. Suck it up people find your opertunity and run with it that was what the dot com days were about a generation sucking it up and getting motivated.
As to rich people being to rich it's there money and they are leveraging it dont cry about it find a niche get some VC and try and catapult yourself up there if you fail mcdonalds is allways hirering.
No sir I dont like it.
I see no redeeming features of this endeavor, whatsoever. Hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on research, proprietary research that is most probably redundant and will never see the light of day or a peer reviewed journal. All for some billionaire to get his rocks off at the finish and a 10 second mention on the nightly news.
Maybe it gave a job to some people who would have looked to employment in fields they don't enjoy as much, maybe that's the redeeming quality here, but it certainly doesn't look like a bargain.
-- Bob
For me the Americas Cup is indeed the largest pissing contest on earth. It is spectacular extravagant, and the realm of some mighty fine ego's. For me its to controlled the vairables reighned in. There are to what if's.
I find the ultimate balance in sailing sport to be the Sydney to Hobart. you can still be filthy rich, have a high tech boat and pit yourself againt your rival media magnnate. But you also have to have balls of steel. Ask anyone who has participated in it - its one hell of a race. It is also a notoriously danerous race through some of the worst waters n the world. Everyone who finishes is a winner! Preparedness, skill, talent seamanship, tactics weigh even with technolgical might. I love my technology as much as challenging competition.
Looking through the posts, I see many that cry for the billions of $$$ to be given to the poor, the starving, the schools, the environment, or whetever the PC pet-project of the week is.
Keep in mind that this money doesn't dissapear. The money goes to R&D labs, computers, sailors, into the host community, and many other places. It's re-entered into the community so that the common people (that's you and me) can have a job and DON'T HAVE to go to the food bank, and can afford to pay taxes to support the schools.
Look at the R&D money spent on sailing alone. The materials knowledge being developed about the properties of carbon, exotic composites, and other extremely lightweight materials will likely eventually be used in making lighter cars, plans, and other "day to day" items that will use less energy, pollute less, and last longer. Same arguments about why the US should be involved in the Space Program.
So quit bellyaching about the money being spent. At least it's being spent and not being kept locked in a bank account.
Besides, I'm a sailor, and want some of the toys they're developing!!!!
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
"...technology and massive databases work..."
i wonder if they use an oracle database.
I agree though that an upper limit is not a good idea, and it wouldn't solve anything at all. If you reach the upper limit, and you knew that all your money would go to someone else, why the hell would you ever work more (unless feeling charitable)? These people's money (on the whole) is coming not from poor people, but from investors (who are usually not exactly poor, and as the company succeeds, get richer). There are obvious exceptions, but i've made my point.
The America's Cup is not held every three years. There is no set schedule. At the start of each cycle, the Defender and the Challenger of Record sit down and negotiate a schedule. This time around, Team New Zealand and Prada decided on a three year schedule. Last time around, Team New Zealand and the New York Yacht Club agreed on a five year schedule. To my knowledge, the shortest schedule was one year (with the New Zealand "big boat" challenge against Dennis Connor's catamaran - what a fiasco!) in 1988.
Second, there are three American syndicates this year. The poster was correct that two of them are backed by Larry Ellison (Oracle BWM from the Golden Gate Yacht Club) and Craig McCaw (OneWorld from the Seattle Yacht Club). However, there is a third American syndicate this time around: Dennis Connor's Stars and Stripes campaign, from the New York Yacht Club. Dennis Connor (aka Mr America's Cup) has participated in every America's Cup going back over 20 years. He's lost the cup twice, and won it four times. This is also the first time in several America's Cup cycles that Dennis Connor has had the money from his backers to support a two-boat campaign, making him very dangerous to retake the cup.
I also want to take issue with the tone of the original posting. Yes, it takes a lot of money to run a competitive America's Cup campaign these days, but that money isn't being thrown away. There is a lot of community service being done by most of the syndicates. Also, the research done into boat design does trickle down to the common man, making sailing more fun for everyone else. Plus, it's a good venue for advertising and since each syndicate by definition must represent its home country, a good way to be patriotic as well. Most of all though, it's a grand spectacle. Why not sit back and enjoy the show?
Halmonster
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" --Salvor Hardin
"The idea that wealth "needs" to be spread evenly or that capitalism is unfair is nieve-- and a bill of goods sold to you by people who want your money."
Sounds to me like the idea that wealth doesn't need to be spread evenly is a bill of goods being sold by the rich to those who would like to take their money. I guess where you fall on the income scale determines how you see the issue.
If you have 1 billion dollars - what motivates yo to work now? It CAN'T be the desire for more money. So what is it?
During the Sydney to Hobart yacht race there are inevitably some casualties/spills, and the Australian .gov/navy/rescue spends millions plucking rich sailors out of the drink. Sailors should be insured (safer seamen ? ;) and liable for any costs incurred. ./s
Yes, you make a good point, they are in frequent contact. The original Golden Globe race (on which the Vendee is based) is a good example of what would happen if they didn't have radio contact (1 finished, 1 suicide, 1 crazy).
OTOH, it can be a bit like Apollo 13, especially when they are in the deepest parts of the southern ocean -- they can be in constant radio contact but nobody can do anything to help you.
And doing a spinnaker gybe on a 60 foot boat alone in the southern ocean truly is an amazing feat.
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
I'm really surprised that Wired chose to use the term "Billionare Boy's Cup", since it sounds like a reference to the notorious "Billionaires Boy Club." For those who don't recall the name, I point you here for details about mind control, investment strategies, and the grusome murders and kidnappings perpetuated by Mr. Joe Hunt and his followers.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Don't want to start a flame war and you start out with insults? Good job. Why didn't you buy the poor African American family a typewriter "Mr. I. Care"? Geesh. You know this is happening, you do nothing and call me insensitive. Sheesh!.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
What is wrong with Portugal? Its a modern European nation and an EU member state. Not Bangladesh.
"Rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is backed up by hard numbers in many studies I've seen. What makes you say it's a fallacy? The thing I'm looking at is the relative gap between the rich and the poor and that does seem to be growing. In the US of course... I have no idea what you Portugese fellers are up to.
Hard numbers from whom? Organizations that what to redistribute wealth from Western nations to non-Western nations?
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Yea, Sweden is such an economic powerhouse.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Here's the truth. You can post disagree or agree if you wish.
;) )
People need to take responsibility for their own actions, good or bad outcome. It's not enough to blame/praise God. Or justify why others might be like they are.
People need to take responsibility.
Remember Darwin's theory. There will NEVER be equality. You will always have richer people and poorer people. Even if you clone the same person 6 Billion times, some will end up richer and some will end up poorer after time.
So why not let Darwin's theory do it's job? You can't stop it, anyway. If someone has a low IQ, poor upbringing, no education, then by nature that person ISN'T SUPPOSED to succeed--unless this gives them an advantage, of course. Anyway, people shouldn't worry about who they think is better off than them. I'm NOT SAYING THIS IS GOOD OR BAD, MAYBE I'D LOVE PERFECTION, but this is just fact.
Only by taking responsibility for yourself can one succeed in his or her objectives in life.
Power/money/etc will always be spread out differently. Even with the same equal IQ, looks, and upbringing (a perfect clone), one will be more successful and Darwin's theory will fade away those unsuccessful.*
Once again, I would LOVE it if there was no poverty and everything was ideal (Possibly less complaining?
BUT, it's Survival of the fittest! It's not U.S.A.'s fault, it's not the WORLD's fault.
Survival of the Fittest will always happen and nothing will ever balance out.
By not interrupting it, at least the "lower-end" standard could be higher the next generation around.
Look I'm a nice guy, but lets speak realistically.
I'm NOT SAYING I'm FOR or AGAINST, but Darwin is JUST THE WAY IT IS. YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT. YOU CAN'T STOP IT.
*And even if you had 6 BILLION CLONES and money distribution/leadership/fear WAS EQUIVALENT (impossible), then NOTHING WOULD GET DONE and society would cease to exist, thus not being perfect. There's No Perfect society possible.
So what is everyone's opinion on this?
Cover your eyes and click this link!
Japan has the richest poor people in the world, followed by Sweden. America has a relatively unequal income distribution--a Gini coefficient of .42 or so, compared to .25 in Japan. Hungary has one of the lowest Gini coefficients, but the level of income is so low that their poor people are poorer than ours. The poor in the more socialist countries are better off than in the more capitalist countries, if you take a snapshot and ignore upward mobility.
Also, it's spelled "lose". Those 4-letter words are tough, huh?
I'm not flaming you, in fact I agree with most of what you say. Claiming that America has the best-off poor is factually wrong though.
When you're signing up for that economics class, take one in debate also.
As a sailor (just went sailing last night) and a daily slashdot reader I like the fact that this article was mentioned. I follow the AC and I am looking forward to whatever TV coverage I can find. I love the camera work, technology, strategy and team work that occurs during a race.
Being a Oracle DBA I have a soft spot (my head maybe) for the Oracle boats. But I also would have to tip the hat for Dennis COnner and his bid to return the cup to NY. I would also like to see a European team win as they elevate sailors to rock star status and have rabid sailing fans.(case in point Ellen MaCarthur and Kingfisher in the Vendee Globe) I would like to see the Kiwis lose. (sorry NZ)
I've raced as well. As helmsman in Wedneday night PHRF (perfromance handicap racing fleet) races. PHRF is a method of adding and subtracting time to make different boats competitive with each other. Its not pefrect but its fun mixing it up with powerful sail boats weighing many tons. Steering a 30 foot sailboat carrying 3 tons of lead ballast travelling at 6 knots in close quarters in waves is exciting to say the least. A big bonus is the party and buffet after the race. Ever seen a gas powered margarita blender?
The AC on TV is too cool These boats are highstrung. Stuff breaks, sails blow, people start yelling. These people push these boats hard. They only need to sail for 5 hours at a time or so. So everything is engineered light and on the edge. This coming Louis Vitton cup should be exciting. These guys don't race for big bucks like spoiled american pro athletes. Its the contest. Its being in the oldest continous sporting challenge in history.
Its high tech. Its obnoxiously expensive, its got complicated rules and it has hard partying sailors hell bent for a good time.
It also represents part of our heritage. When all our travel and goods moved via the water. Smallish harbor Pilot vessels would sail out to incoming ships to guide them into port. These were private escort vessels and they competed for business by being the first out to the incoming ships. There was much gambling associated with these "races". The first one out got the job as pilot. That was the skill we used when the schooner "America" first brought a fancy silver cup home from England after winning a race. (America's Cup) She was built for speed based on pilot vessels of the time.
Sailing was part of everyday life for many thoughout the world and still is today. Just not for those of us who would rather watch football on a beautiful breezy sunday afternoon watching overpaid whiners.
Keep in mind whenever there are two sailboats within site of each other there is a race.
Sailing in any form is a wonder of technology, art, science, nature and history. It teaches us about history, weather, areodynamics, electricity, internal combustion engines, leadership, planning, navigation and most importantly it builds confidence and courage.
When out on the water miles from shore any decision you make can have life and death ramafications. You have to learn to know what they are. Run scenarios in your mind and always have a plan.
I say follow the Americas Cup. It will teach you much about ourselves and remind us that we live on a planet that is still mostly water.
See you out there.
bodland
Raido
It would accomplish something, but nothing in the realm of what you wish. Part of our (US/Europe/most of the 1st World) economy depends on free ownership of business. Ellison's/Gate's/Perot's extreme wealth does not come from his salary, but from his founder's share of the business. Most of Gate's wealth is not liquid, but depends on his trusting investment in the stock market. If Microsoft crashes tomorrow, Bill goes down the drain with it. If he tries to liquify his holdings, Microsoft goes down the tubes before he completes a quarter of his trades.
These kinds of guys would freely sacrifice their incomes in lieu of stock ownership. In fact, the ability for someone to create a business, assume financial risk, and either sink or swim (reaping the bene's if you swim) is one of the reasons that our system works so well. If you limit *this*, you destroy people's creative, entrepreneural tendencies and tank the Western world's economy as we know it. Simply put, there is no correlation between the highest wage earners and highest net worth; on the contrary, the highest wage earners would tend NOT to have the kind of money saved up to spend on the America's Cup.
Now, let's take your wage-limiting scenario; we still have the extreme rich that own the businesses, but now we have a working class that is totally unmotivated to reach for the top. I'll never make 3 times more than the janitor, so why should I go to med school? Why should I fight to improve this process? Why should I assume the responsibility of tech lead on this project? Our system thrives on people's willingness to assume *risk* and reap the rewards. Like it or not, you will not get enough people to perform the high performance/high stress jobs if you take away the lofty benefits. You want fries with that? Wealth will *always* be distributed on a bell curve, regardless the system. Get over it.
Interesting (and stupid) examples of capitalistic countries that failed. Do you even know what capitalism is? If so, you should be able to explain why your examples are so stupid.
The Hobie cat (not Hobby, the designer's name is "Hobie", http://www.hobiecat.com/) is a great sailboat. Ladeling technology into a monohull will never make it as fast as a multihull. The record-breaking "Playstation" is a catamaran (2 hulls). The Little America's Cup, which is apparently moribund, was really the testbed for sailing technology. These boats were built for thousands and could easily beat the America's Cup boats that were built for millions (in the old days, 1970's prices).
to err is human, to forgive is divine, to forget is... umm...
Team New Zealand currently holds the America's Cup. The challengers all compete in the Louis Vuitton Cup for the right to challenge NZ. The complete list of challengers is available here.
As sports go, you'd be hard pressed to find one with more history, integrity, and passion than sailing. If you've never been in a sailboat race, then you have no idea the exhiliration that sailing provides. There is nothing like it.
No matter how many millions are spent, sailing is still much more art than science. How do you know where the wind is going to blow next? How can you know what your opponent is going to do next? Sailing is equal parts skill, training, and smarts - with just enough luck thrown in to make sure it never gets dull.
This isn't tiddlywinks, either. People get hurt, and people die. I was once almost knocked out and thrown overboard when a spinnaker pole came crashing down on me while I was working foredeck. When a 10-knot wind fills 300 sq. meters of sail, you're talking about some serious energy that has to be dealt with.
And if you're still not convinced how hardcore this can be, check out this site. One person. One boat. All the way around the friggin' world. There's a simple beauty there that is rarely seen in the world these days.
I'll tell you what the 'effect' is! It's pissing me off!
The fact that this got modded up to 2 prompts me to go meta-moderate.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
Well, Milton Friedman's son certainly agrees with me, as I've talked to him. I can' say for sure about Milton Friedman, but given that I am repeating what he proved to the world, I can say with pretty high confidence that he does.t
Keynes was the source of the poverty you are trying to eradicate. Yes, pretty much all economists have agreed with Friedman in latter years--- sure they disagree on minor points-- but capitalism is not in doubt.
I note that you have failed to cite an economist that agrees with your position, Marx does not count.
OK, Marx does count- anyone can call themselves an economist, but he's been completely discredited. Yet he *does* agree with you.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
The Americas Cup 2003 is NOT held once every three years - I beleive that the next race will be the Americas Cup 2006.
I had no idea there were so many sailors on slashdot. If anyone is looking for crew near Grand Rapids, Michigan let me know. Resume and references available upon request. Will sail for beer.
Matt
=)
To Do: 1. Take over world 2. Pick up Milk and Bread on the way home
I am sure your are clicking, 'Fair'. Thanks!
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
As they do have obituaries regularly. People are lost at sea all the time. Some are merely injured, but it is easy to be in life threatening situations.
You say "splash" as if the water is warm. Where I sail, inside of 15 minutes unprotected in the water you are looking at serious consequences and possible death.
When you've been in a small boat in 50 MPH winds and 5-10 foot seas, then you can come tell me its nothing like rock climbing.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
Leave it to yuppies to bring a computer onto a sailboat. What a bunch of fucking morons.
I want my slice of the pie too! Gimmie gimmie gimmie!
Second, pay the big hardware companies to support non-windows OS's with their releases.
third, a boeing 737 for me, with all the furniture ripped out and re-decorated
a hotel or five in various cities around the world
24-hour entourage of highly-paid and highly skilled butlers/servants, etc.
legal protection for various legislative lobbying that i choose
usual crap about ecology, but i really dont want to see some of the rare species extinct during my lifetime
eradicate malaria (easily done, with enough money)
have fun with the stock market ("hahaha you want to buy this stock? not likely [as price soars]... keep buying, fool! [immediately flood market as people catch on that i'm buying shitloads]")
buy a small country and become the only benign, incorruptible dictator in the history of the world
move the guiness, kilkenny/smithwicks, harp, boddingtons, murphys, etc breweries to my neighborhood
etc. etc. etc. etc. even the realistic, not-tongue-in-cheeck things on that list above sum well into the $20 bn mark.
PLUS, think of being able to veg. in a reclining chair with a ceiling monitor (i.e. the ceiling = the monitor) with a OC-48 connection to the internet and never have to work again. damn, i even forgot the world's biggest yacht with my own supply of nicely water-cooled dom perignon, chateau rothschild (not cooled, obviously), etc. *sigh*.
I'm going to be depressed again for the rest of the day.
Money helps but it also comes down to ideas and being a nation of sailors.
Get your red socks on
No red sock campaign
I thing that spending almost $700 million to win a boat race is an insane waste of money. Put it towards the study of cancer or something for the love of GOD.
Dan Mayer: my blog, essays, art, etc
as others have commented the tech is useless without the savvy. nz could compete because we had savvy - however much of that savvy has been bought by the billionaire boys.
some people in nz are pushing back on that - Blackheart
others like Greenpeace are pushing back on the sponsorship of the French boat.
me...i'm just sick of auckland's gyms being full of yank jocks hogging all the gear...all that money why can't they build themselves dedicated gyms...
The people that hold these races know that they need wind. Therefore, they pick spots that have consistant wind patterns. If there is no wind by some chance for one race, no big deal anyways. This is match racing, 1 vs. 1. It won't affect people if they have to wait 1 hour to 1 day for wind to pick up. They can wait; they did spend almost a billion dollars getting to the starting line =)
One design is very interesting. PHRF racing is decent, but just not as good as all people with equal equipment testing their skills agaisnt one another.
However, even in one design fleets, technology still comes into play. For example, a local fleet of boats have started to dry sail, claiming that the non-dry sailed ones are heavier and slower. I know of at least one person who sold their old boat just to be competitive in this fleet.
Ever see one of these boats? They are huge corporate billboards. You could claim the same things about companies spending money to air their commercials during the superbowl.
well i don't think larry has to worry about the wind... he's got enough hot air to move mountains.
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
The smallest country with probably the smallest budget is the current holder of the America's Cup. Not mention that they have not been beaten in a single America's cup race in the last 2 outings.
Yeah, its all about money.
... as long as they don't try to bring their sheep on board.
...
*bah-dumpsh*
Thank you, thank you very much! I think we've about exhausted the subject, so she's now free to go
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Well, according to the sailing results at the last Olympics... the UK has the best sailors.
:-)
That's in strict one design Olympic classes. Pretty much the highest level at which sailors compete on a reasonably level playing field, all sailing identical boats.
Now... who has the best designers, engineers, lawyers, most cash, most Americas cup campaign experience, most experience of the waters in which the cup will be raced, etc. etc... that's a different matter
Mike
Think today's great? Should've been here *yesterday*.
Yeah, they refused it.
Just like I'd refuse anyone who offered short-term help to me with a view to establishing a long-term stranglehold.
$40 a ton to get that 'aid' milled into flour... and prevent it turning half of Africa into a hunting ground for Monsanto lawyers.
Get real. Do you Americans really believe that the whole world has to dance to your "our money, our technology, our bully-boy politics" tune?
Just because African nations are suffering terrible famine doesn't mean they're prepared to give up their grain export trade and put themselves in hock to the GM corporations. Jeez.
Mike
Think today's great? Should've been here *yesterday*.
Good point.
To Do: 1. Take over world 2. Pick up Milk and Bread on the way home