Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Targeting Indian Developers
Pranjal writes "An Indian Business magazine, Business World is reporting that in it's war against Linux, Microsoft is taking the battle to the Indian developers. The logic is simple. India has 10% of the developer population of the world. If a significant number of these developers commit to work on MS platforms then the number of developers working on Linux platforms can decrease significantly and thus the number of applications. As Dilip Mistry, a director at Microsoft India's Bangalore office puts it, "This country can affect our (Microsoft's) destiny." [Quote From article] Local linux user groups are trying to counter this threat by targetting school and university students and increasing the awareness about development on a linux platform. Read the full story here. [Nice cover don't you think?]"
Overseas (Indian and Asian markets) have always been one of Linux's strongest points. Hopefully this won't have a large effect on it.
...but which one's the penguin??
Ali
Ph33r m3!!!
It's already the case that most of the programming shops in Bangalore specialize in Windows.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I first read it as Endian. I thought they were going after former 68000 developers.
Stealing our fucking jobs and women.
Just because you are unable to get either of them isn't the fault of the indians. It's because you're a loser.
In related news, Bill Gates is visiting India and gave $100 million to fight AIDS in India. Although I geniuinely believe Bill Gates to be a humane person (really), _perhaps_ this action has something to do with leveraging Microsoft position in the Indian government?
Tux actually looks pretty mean in that cover! Why can't he ever look that mean in the picture of the BSD Demon ass raping him? ITS JUST NOT FAIR!! :-(
Can all fish swim?
Makes you wonder if the $100 million he donated to India is really going to be used to fight AIDS.
I first thought when I read targeting Indian Developers it was for the use of pirate software, not to woo them to use more pirated MS software.
Also, what about price. I don't think the average Indian developer has $1000US for software licenses, it is more likely that the $1000US will be used to feed the family, etc.
As far as Western countries loosing jobs, yes that is a possibility, but there is enough racism at least in North America that will prevent massive job losses. Think "Made in America", and also how many taxi drivers were doctors in their homelands.
It seems that programmers are one of the few occupations that are treated nearly equal. In some ways this sucks for us, but at least these people have a chance and their education is respected...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
in other news ...I'd hate to think such a benevolent gift has its roots in corporate strategy, but he didn't become the world's richest man by simply giving away his money...
Interesting hearing this news, since the new Linux Journal has a cover precisely targeting the internationalization of linux and how Indian, Chineese and other less supported languages are growing more in steeply in Linux than in any other OS. And how developers are building an internationalization of not just language but also CODE.
The JZA
I think MS will suceed in this war. The linux groups in India are all small and pretty restricted in terms of their activities. And Bill is doing his level best to woo the India programmers. There is a place in Delhi where you can buy any pirated MS software. Everyone knows about that. But there are hardly any raids there. I think MS is knowingly encouraging pirated software in India, so that they can get more developers.
Another thing is that software industry in India is mostly a services business, as in they sell services to other companies. They dont make any software products. Now its easy to guess what work do they get more, linux related or Windows related.
What's under yellowstone?
Oracle to double India workforce
It's fascinating to see these kinds of trans-ethnic business practices becoming a reality. To think that only a few hundred years ago, we were all in our separate continents, living in dull homogeneity. Now we've been thrust together, shaken up, and hung out to dry by the Information Age, and we have to adapt to a whole new set of rules.
I'll come clean. I'm white. While I wouldn't want to lose my job to an Indian, I don't think that white folks have any more of a right to their jobs than Indians, or anyone else. If anything, the Indians are slightly more deserving, after we have gone back on so many treaties with them. I imagine I'd stoop to using Microsoft instead of Linux, if it meant I could stop working as a blackjack dealer. So please, try and offer a little understanding before ranting about how you lost your job to someone who happens to have darker skin. We're all people, too.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
On that cover it looks to me like Gates is saying "Oh, no. It's The Claw. You're scared of The Claw."
I want that cover, either in printed form or as a hi-res JPG or as vector Postscript.
Thinkgeek, are you listening?
www.eFax.com are spammers
This article's arguments are as valid as if it were saying "Microsoft is sabotaging the open source movement by recruiting the best minds at the best Universities. Give me a break...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
I'm not trying to suggest anything devious here BTW, only pointing out that India is continuing to get a larger amount attention in the international spotlight..
Goodwill? Being magnanimous? What does the article say:
He said he worried that India's enormous progress in information technology -- the country has the only Microsoft software development center outside the United States -- would be thwarted by AIDS.
Ohhh. Okay.
He also wore a "tika" (the deep red mark on the forehead). Anybody have actual pictures (as opposed to your 5 minute Photoshop efforts).
This is not a new thing at all. I was in India about 2 years ago, and even then I found the contrasts great. A slum to your left and right, yet hundreds of signs advertising C# training (Java training too)
I would say one thing in addition--many of the indian developers aren't exactly leading Silicon Valley hot shot developer lifestyles. As such, they will learn what they need to learn to get jobs and get money--ideology has no place here.
I would think that india is already taken from Microsoft. Most of the students from India in my university are usually found to be using windows machines rather than solaris or linux or apple that are available in the labs. Also isn't it known that Microsoft already has a campus in India? The salaries there are so much less than the United States that many companies have people developing for them in India. I guess i fail to see how this move from microsoft changes anything.
In light of the information contained in this story, the donation Bill Gates gave to
India to fight AIDS recently makes a little more sense. I mean, I know that Mr. Gates is heavy into the cause of fighting global diseases but wouldn't it have made more sense to donate to the #1 country (Africa) dealing with an AIDS epidemic than #2 (India)? I suppose if there are more developers in India that you want on your side, then it makes more sense from a business stand point...
What we do every day Pinky, try to take over the world...
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
I was just perusing the NYTimes site and their article about the Gates Foundation donating $100 million towards India's plight of AIDS. This is the largest ever sum donated by the foundation. Then I stop by /. and read this.
Scary I tell you.
Get real. This has nothing to do with Linux. My company is also seeking programmers in India. They are simply cheaper (at least while they are still IN India.) and are appearantly not inferior intellitually.
Linux, puhleez. FUD
What if Indian computer scientists in their effort to get the Hell out of India?
Most of the development on Linux is done by individuals that do it for their own pleasure or need, it is not done by sweatshops like you find in India for profit. MS is just going their to cut their costs and get rid of some of their high paid workers here, IMHO.
Rediffmail.com is India's largest email server and it runs entirely on Linux.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I am not sure I see the real point of this article though. I don't think that Gates' donation and visit would have anything to do with gaining popularity in India, but the fact that I even considered it a possibility is scary. Have I become that paranoid of the Evil Empire?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
What if tux sported a bindi?
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
Personal Tax Right-off.
It helps m$ in the long run anyway, which means it replaces said money in a year or two.
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
They only specialize in Windows because Windows is pracitically free over there. In the Indian IT world, no copy protection laws are ever respected, and the Windows XP devils0wn edition runs on every computer.
If Microsoft began enforcing copyrights strictly for Indian IT companies, then you would see quite a switch to Linux over there -- and quite possibly a boost to the hiring of American programmers with Windows skills, if the H1B training mills are shut down because of it.
--- YEAH I SAW SPARKS FLY!! FROM THE CORNER OF MY EEEYYYEEE!!!
After all, he does have a computer science degree....
-ted
its war against Linux!
its: possessive of "it"
it's: contraction of "it is"
- Have a picture
> guess what I just got today?
Told you're an unproductive simp, pack your bags, get out?
that slashdotters can't see that every silver lining has a gray cloud. I imagine in a story "Bill Gates Donates Kidney to Complete Stranger," you'll have a dozen posters saying that "M$" will go to any lengths to keep people from migrating to Windows.
"You get what you pay for after all." --
Jesus, this is low for even slashdot.
The guy and his wife are pledging 100x what most countries gave to the African AIDS epidemic (Italy: 1.3million). And somehow you have to tie this to some sort of anti-linux campaign.
Get real. The linux community over values itself if it thinks gates is going about eroding linux support by saving lives and preventing epidemics.
You think the $250+ million he dumped into Africa was to squash the burgeoning Linux user groups starting to take hold in Kenya?
Learn to draw the line guys. From early on the Gates Foundation has been doing about 50% of its donations to Global Health. So far that's like 2.7 billion. You don't have to like him, but you certainly don't have to belittle his philanthropic work.
-malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
and.. back on topic --- if the statistics given in the story are true, without those programmers, you juuuuuuuuuuust might be sans computer.
just a thought.
Bill (the one on the left) even has his tuxedo on :~)
Parent comment is total flamebait, as far as I'm concerned.
Bill Gates, via his foundation, has given more money, and more earnest attention, to public health issues like AIDS, tuberculosis, and vaccination, that any living human. He does this out of what I regard as a genuine thoughtful concern for the best way to make his enormous wealth do good in the world.
He doesn't have to do this - he could be like Larry Ellison and just dick around with his money. To say he's fighting AIDS in India solely to make a market for Microsoft products is rude and inaccurate.
But no, I haven't dug up any photos of him with the tika. I'd pay to see it, though.
four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
Then maybe linux / unix should target people who decides the purchases outside india so there will be no demand for indian windows programmers ? I doubt the demand for their work is just in india.
That sounds like what China said up until last year - "We don't have an AIDS problem". Turns out they do, about 25 million cases worth. I imagine it'll be the same for India :-(
The Indian government is unwilling to admit the vastness of the AIDS problem... and that's just going to screw over the entire country.
Estimates put the present size of India's developer population at anywhere between 450,000 and 600,000. That's about 10% of the world's developer population.
So by these numbers, there are between 4 and 6 million software developers in the world. According to the Microsoft(tm) Annual Report, they have about 50,000 employees. So what percentage of the worlds developers need to be working on core open source projects before the open source developers outnumber the Windows developers? Looks like the answer is less than 1%!
And that's why I think Microsoft is doomed in the long run. Open Source already has most of the functionality of Microsoft's offerings. And it only takes a small fraction of the world's developers to completely outstrip the amount of effort Microsoft can throw at the problem. Hell, if 10% of the developers spent 10% of their time on core OSS projects it would be more than enough to provide a nice stable feature-rich desktop and server environment. Interesting.
Here is the reasonning:
If Indian programming shops are in majority unable to take up Linux-specific programming tasks, this weakness will be an opportunity to slow the leaking of programming jobs outside western countries. The US and European IT pros will, conscienciously or not, move to a configuration more favorable to their job security, and lead an evolution that will increase the value of their more versatile know-how. Hence tend to ditch windows. Already many politicians in Europe are aware that an OSS based infrastructure brings more jobs to their local service industry.
Microsoft will not be able to succeed here, the global influence of the United States is weakening and external countries are more likely to choose independent products.
Could it be they can hire a platoon of Indian Programmers to work around the clock for the price of 3 American programmers? Microsoft is not a US company. Sure, they base their corporation here, but they don't hire Americans.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Scaremongering my ass.
India has always tried to cover up their AIDS problem. Go figure, the Health Minister of India telling the world population to "move along, move along, nothing to see here... we're ok... move along". Meanwhile it remains a big taboo in Indian society to discuss aids, the disease, how it's transmitted, and safe sex. The health minister has his proverbial head in the sand. India is posed to a African style outbreak, all the right factors have been identified. The majority of the people with AIDS are travelers and will soon become bridges to bring the bulk majority of the population into high risk.
It certainly doesn't help that Indian hospital turn away AIDS victims, and pregnant mothers, telling them they should have an abortion.
It's sad really, to see a country like India go to this great a length to save face. If Gates hadn't visited the country, this would have gotten as much air-time as his 250 million he dumped into Africa. Zero.
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
I wonder what Microsoft's market strategy is in India. Perhaps they're targeting more southerly regions, where it's warmer.
Once they have a foothold in the south, then they can consider attacking the mountainous northern parts of India, where penguins (ergo Linux) are more apt to make their stronghold.
I also found this article at Yahoo. Artcle
The facts:
Bill Gates himself goes on a trip to a country that has recently started to develop significant Linux precence including cheap Linux devices for the masses. Bill's action can only be interpreted as an act of desperation.
Slashdot (and unfortunately most Linux communities) have been infected by Microsoft FUD, it's no longer funny:
Fear, Uncertainity, Doubt:
"Hopefully this won't have a large effect on it." (Translation: Whine, whine, whine, I'm so afraid, uncertain and doubtful.) Just read a few more posts, most contain similar statements. Yes, this is FUD by its finest.
By now we have even reached a point where it is no longer allowed to have optimistic points of view. It's considered obscene and strange if you do. When Eric S. Raymond said that Linux will gain massively on cheap computers, he was called crazy, a freak and whatever in the accompanying Slashdot-thread. (Of course Walmart and Gericom have already proven that Linux sells on cheaper computers - of course nobody realized that. When announced, everybody was afraid, doubtful and uncertain about the Linux-PC's success. (Would Walmart really sell a losing product for over half a year? Would Walmart extend their commitment twice? - They went from clean PCs to Lindows-preloaded, then later added Mandrake.))
Currently we live in a situation where almost everybody, even many Linux-supporters spread FUD (in the literal sense: "Fear, Uncertainity, Doubt") about Linux.
Such massive anti-propaganda would have killed almost any commercial product within only few years. Would anybody buy Windows when Bill Gates would constantly say stuff like: "Hopefully Torvald's speech on Linux-Expo won't have a large effect on our sales"? Of course not.
The FACT that despite this hostile environment, KDE/Linux is not only surviving but growing - in terms of development as well as in terms of marketshare, is the biggest proof that Linux is here not only to stay but also to become the standard platform on all mainstream computing markets within this decade.
The sad part is that most slashdotters don't seem to realize what they are doing - that they are spreading anti-Linux FUD.
Or to put it in another way: The FUD spread by Bill Gates in India (or anywhere else) can't be worse than the FUD spread by Linux-supporters on slashdot (or elsewhere).
Thank you! Come again!
I just can't believe that Microsoft would target Indians.
Really, when have you ever seen a teepee with Windows??
Comment removed based on user account deletion
While we're restating the obvious...
Microsoft is a software corporation based in Redmond, Washington. They are well known for their popular Windows operating system and their Office software.
Insightful: 76, Off-Topic: 379, Flamebait: 24, Funny: 152, Interesting: 201, Underrated: 55, Troll: 9, Total: 896
Its so obvious, I can't believe that the parent was moderated so high.
Unless those mods are really shallow spitfull people.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
they tried to squash linux before it started, so instead of empire building until they could no longer ignore linux they focused on it before they had to and only succeded in thrusting it into the limelight
"We are paranoid someone is going to come along and take away mindshare from developers. We're paranoid something out there is going to be more exciting to developers."
Lets see, a closed system with low quality, where they use proprietary protocols they don't want you to alter and then they change them, stop support and force upgrades, v.s. an open system of high quality that you can actually make better and costs almost nothing.
"No, we don't want to tell you how this works, and we don't want you to touch it" is not an attitude that creates mindshare.
I can see why it might be exciting to use Microsoft, but that type of excitement would reduce mindshare.
Excuse me, but in the long run, what makes the case the of India different? Their current relatively poor income per capita might make it easy playground to battle with money in the beginning - but in the long run, why would India be any different? If, as it seems, many of the developed countries prefer open source and Linux - how can anyone believe India would be an isolated island in the future? They will face the problem even if they manage to brainwash a significant percent of the current coder generation
The amount of wealth he has collected is pretty damn obscene. Yes, he can have all of that for himself but that doesn't mean he should. He has accumlated an amount beyond all reason, much of it through illegal or at least arguably unethical means, just so he can become the richest man in the world and win that game. If he were generous, he would take what he needed to live really really well and give the rest away. What took him so long to give a teeny bit of what he owns away? -snartal
All robber-barons later in life give money to build schools, museums, theatres, and many other kinds of charity acts. Being a major shareholder and the ceo during the period of which you abused your monopoly pretty much ensures that from history's point of view, Gates is a robber baron. But giving away $$$ to to a charitable cause does not mean it is being done for any other reason than the reason that motivates all robber-barons.
sheesh. is anyone else getting sick of the anti-microsoft news that always makes its way to slashdot? who really cares what ms does in india?
So they have libraries for programming slot machines and smokeing salmon? What about carving totem polls?
"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
When was the last time someone didn't starve because someone else wrote a new text editor and gave it away with the proviso that if anyone else does anything with it, they have to give away their work for free too?
http://iccf-holland.org/click5.html
Vim, arguably the worlds best text editor, does exactly that. Bill Gates is worthy of some respect for giving money away, but when compared to his net worth and rate of capital growth (never mind it's a tax deduction), you would be suprised what it's comparable to.
..don't panic
Probably some MS exec has heard something about the popularity of Apache...
I live in Russia where developer market is similar to one in India. I can tell that we dont need special coaching to switch to any particualt form. The demand for software is compltely external, meaning we just work on whats is outsouced from the States and Western Europe. All the develoepr tools and OS are "free" meaning you can buy the lates V svs studoipn .net enterprise edtion 6 cd set at any software kisook for 15 bucks. Most currently specialise on win soft but its alo possibl;e now to male money doing compltely Linux/FreeBSD shit.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Wait until the Chinese kick in. They'll kick India's butt all over the place.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
--Until now, however, it has always fought and beaten foes with a definite face and form. To put UNIX out of favour with the computing world, it had to beat IBM.--
When did AIX ever seem much of a threat to Microsoft ?
They never competed on the desktop where Microsoft is. This article is just more fluff so that people can get their feathers in a bunch. But I suppose if FUD works for Microsoft then Linux advocates should employ it too. I hope that it does not get in the way with engineering a quality OS and good apps.
If India has 10% of the developers then I am glad I do not live there. That place must be the crummiest place to live, a country of people with arranged marriages to other nerds, and a social caste system, a hierarchy of nerds. They should rename that country 'Nerdland' or 'Oppressive Nerdland, or IndyNerd.
The food rocks though. Indian people that come to this country are never begging on the street corner. Too many nerds in one population is bad though.
Somebody should take 5% of the developer nerds in India and move them to the US where they could live in Nerd Unfriendly environments like Texas and Missouri and Nebraska, then they would get more socially adjusted by having to interact with hicks. They could get rusty pickup trucks and mean dogs and have mandatory bar time and the Boars Nest(tm). Then they would be super nerds and they could develop linux and be a good peer group for other nerds.
This way we could smarten up our hicks and toughen up some nerds at the same time through interbreeding. Also, nerds would get laid.
The End.
BusinessWorld is quite a famous magazine in India. However, I was surprised to see that the entire site didn't have any advertizement. Also the cover shows the retail price to be Re.5 which is equivalent of US 10 cents. Also the article is quite thorough in its coverage and analysis.
To the detractors: You know, if you hate businesspeople that much; especially those who try to give back; you need to find a country where you don't need that dollar a day in order to survive. Even communist states aren't that simple.
I am the first to concede that Microsoft got to the top and then started knocking other people off the top by abusing their power. There is probably NO WAY to tell whether or not other powerhouses like Apple and IBM would have done the same -- on the other hand, there may be - Don Imus was talking about a book by a former IBM CEO the other day (but he was also mentioning that it seemed to be written in a vacuum; with no discernible mention of the worldwide sociopoliticeconmical situation at the time period; which is apparently the early 80s).
It just so happens, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, that Mr. Gates is very very rich. And you know what; even if 98% of what his company does is wrong; getting there was not as wrong as you think. And that man worked hard to get where he is; and deserves an ounce of your respect for that. There are two sides to a coin; and the very fact that he gives back in areas that many others do not or would not donate time or money towards is laudable.
As far as "the memo" is concerned... you/we/they ARE the competition. Every Pro-Linux gathering has plans to defeat the competition that is Microsoft - or corporate greed or whatever your noble cause du jour is. So do it!
Give Microsoft competition; give 'closed source' competition; don't just spew mindless immaturities - "Waaaaah, he gots a lollipop and I don't". Remember to ask yourself how you are going to make money giving something away for free - and DAMN you if you make only the first one free because that is the same practice you detest. And before you break out more immaturities; I use them all - Solaris, Windows, Linux - because each one has their uses depending on what or whom I'm working for. If you can get it in front of the multibillion dollar corporation and get them to adopt it as their baseline OS; then that will be my next job. I am less worried about the kind of systems I will be supporting than whether said support position will be funded next year.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
He could have chosen a different time to make the donation and not tied the charity and his main agenda for the visit, which is convincing Indian programmers to not use/program for OSS: he didn't.
OK, so there can't be be enterprise-level Linux apps developed for pay. Huh?
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
What is the use of pushing MS technology on Indian programmers? I'm assuming that MS is targeting Indian programmers who work for outsourcing firms (body shops). Every time I've used such places with clients, we've never given the out-sourced developers their choice of platforms. You tell them exactly what you want and when. If developer X doesn't have the ability to write the program in Java, then we go to X' who can.
Then they'll regularly send someone by to see how things are going, talk up their latest "inno-cough-vative" offering, and see if the target company is _motivated_. Sometimes, if they're lucky, one of the new programmers will have some "happy fun intranet site, or happy joy widget" made with said technology to show off (you know, the port of something which has already been working in PERL, PHP, or both using Sun, or Zeus) that will probably score them some nifty t-shirts, a mug, or hey, maybe another dousing with the developer-cd firehose.
And then if they really want to see how things are going, they'll ask for a tour of the _server room_, the holiest of the holies for said company. The annointed one will be walked around, and they'll look for familiar names, like Compaq, or Dell. But, if they see "SUN", or beige boxen then the annointed one will carefully steer conversation towards determining the nature and purpose of these boxen. Depending on the cluefulness of the tour-guide, things could either go well, and the annointed one will leave, only making note of a possible hardware upgrade deal, or they will become wrathful, and the sales-calls, port-scans, and off-hours questioning through "chance meetings" will take place until they have enough information to confront the president of the company. They will act hurt, or betrayed, and say interesting things like,
"I thought we had an understanding that you were a Microsoft Development shop", or
"How can we help you fully become a Microsoft Developer?", or my favorite,
"How has Microsoft failed to meet your needs? We are eager to help you in any way we can."
Of course, years later when the BSA sends out their letters to the less-than-faithful, and begins bringing in the police to follow up on portscans and megabytes of downloaded header logs showing all of the boxen development-only copies of software running. there will be those who remember these honeyed promises aimed only at the hearts, minds, and struggling companies or schools.
M$ has much to gain, but in the end, as they squeeze diversity and skill out of developing countries, they will also loose these possibilities forever. Linux is safe, becuase just like the smart people in Africa who refused flawed crop-seed to avoid a hideous cycle of dependency, developers in India and around the world know that freedom is more important than easily made promises. Held to a hard-line of artificial ability and capability(M$ API's are Black-boxes...no lookee, no touch-ee, no-feelie) with brittle security, smart developers and business leaders will realize that there is no get-rich quick incentive to supporting a core of fatally flawed intractable components supplied by a company which is really incapable of doing anything more than strong-arming hardware and software developers(even savvy developers need support--and when they become the support they are no longer developers), coercing companies with hideous licensing schemes by buying legislation and counting coup on the legal system of the United States. Companies seeking to get rich by suckling at the four-paned teat would do well to remember that M$ eats it's young, and often the young of others too.
Every new form of media has it's own Requirimento
Well, perhaps M$'s efforts will come to naught if India's developers band together with India's physicists. ;-)
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
Here's an article where Bill Gates has taken a real interest in India... I don't think these two event are unrelated.
Bill Gates hands out millions to fight AIDS in India
How noble of Bill to share a puny portion of his fortune on preventing AIDS in India. I wonder if Bill is going to dump some of his money in China as well... they got a lot of AIDS cases as well. Perhaps he've understood the longterm direction of the Chinese market isn't pointing towards Windows, so he won't spend more cash on trying to bribe the Chinese.
In the coming decade, China is going to become the second largest IT development sweatshop after India. And the next step will be that India and China will pass the rest of the world in developing software packages. Western IT companies will go the same way the US car industry went... they'll become a player on a market with stiff competition... no more dominance. Maybe Bill and Steve will become more humble over the years?
Does anybody know why RedHat are losing so much money. Arguably they are the most successful Linux business. I believe in their last shareholder report it talked about restructuring their embedded division or something. They seem to be growing still - shouldn't they be focussed on making money first?
A lot of Columbian drug dealears give lots of money to catholic charities. Mother Theresa received quite a lot from them. Does that mean that we should ignore how these guys made the money?
If I steal a million dollars and give a hundred thousand to charity, does that make me immune to criticism?
Magnus.
BG gets a red mark on his forehead.
Miztah Gates is giving 100mil for HIV research.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/833383.asp?0pu=61
Post ignored.
Fucking moron.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Ballmer's going to have to modify his act. What's Hindi for "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!!!!"
And the brethren went away edified.
That sounds like what China said up until last year - "We don't have an AIDS problem". Turns out they do, about 25 million cases worth.
So that's what... 1% of their population?
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Okay, the actual text of that message was in the topic, and slashdot has decided to ignore my topic... so just ignore the above
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Or to put it another way... This software is now the ultimate power in the universe. I suggest we use it!
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
>Give Microsoft competition; give 'closed source' competition; don't just spew mindless immaturities - "Waaaaah, he gots a lollipop and I don't".
Speaking of being immature, I don't recall making fun of someone a level of maturity. I see no indication of jealousy in the comment about the relation to the push to keep microsoft developers.
I've witnessed many times guys who take up charitable interests just to get laid, and it works, over and over. The guy really might not be an a-hole and might even agree with his new found ideas, but somehow it just seems a bit cheesy.
If you respond to this, keep in mind that my reason for this viewpoint is not because I want a lolipop, or my neighbors sweet little ass, it's just a shared observation.
Indians suck at manufacturing & are hardly innovative in any other field
Really? You seem to have a very low opinion of us. I might mention though, that we have other ideas.
As for open source route, we don't have to make open source software. We should use it. No need to pay big Bill a Big bill. right?
(btw, that's called Yamak alankar in Hindi. if you remember any of it, that is.)
The generation of future Indians are at the hands of the developers. Dont drive the only thing which you can produce to a zero value system.
Aww, come on. Since when have software developers
started shaping the future of countries? Most of em' have trouble shaping their own future! Let's not have grandiose visions, shall we?
Just let us be.
Linux, the free source operating system (OS) that has evolved over the years, owes allegiance to none
"Free Source"? - Perhaps that's what we should call it to end the Great War? Hmmm, on second thought, Stallmann would never approve it.
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
And how, pray tell, is this a boon to Linux? It may be a boon to your yankee job, but Linux improved in India is still improved.
Please, this is slashdot, let's have OS prejudice not race and nationality prejudice. On purely humanitarian grounds, parochial protectionism is no boon to the third world.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
I don't know why I bother posting.
How in the world does India own 10% of the development community? I think you mean China. Or rather, the distribution of the development is so massive its almost impossible to compute the statistic.
Seriously, quit trying to quantify the world and the events with in it.
Roshan,
Indians would be just fine at manufacturing if it weren't for the high tarriffs. When the govt reforms those tarriffs, you may see a huge upswelling in manufacturing, and that would be a damn good thing.
Did you even read my post?
Last time I did that was in the old days of 1.2.13 kernel. For at least five years I have been able to convince the managers in my company of the Linux superiority, not by talking, but by coding superior software in Linux.
Microsoft Targeting Indian Developers
That's it... a little to the left... a little more... BANG!
Muhahahahah, another potential linux developer down. Who's next?
-- Wibble
lol!
Bill is the one who chose this trip, so focused on getting Indian programmers to program for Windows instead of OSS, to provide this donation. Bill is the one who tied these two together. And the article points out that he expressed concern that AIDS would thwart India's progress in IT, and tied the sentence together with the presence of the Microsoft software development center in India.
i want to see the penguin with boxing gloves on punching bill in the face, south-park style. Not because that's what's happening, but just cause it would be funny and cool.
sir_haxalot
stuff |
read parent. you can't fake that funk.
I notice that in the posted image Bill is wearing a tux. Looks like it's affecting him more than he thinks.
-- main(s){printf(s="main(s){printf(s=%c%s%c,34,s,34
That's quite an impressive claim you make there. Do you have a reference to back that up?
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Fear, Uncertainity, Doubt... You know I think it's worked pretty well on me. I think pretty much everything sucks all the time reguardless of the operating system. And strangely enough computer related stuff in general tends to prove my point time and time again.
Microsoft will use it's money to try an influence Indian software companies and developers, but anyone who has done business in India will know. Indian's are smart and have a sharp sense of business.
They may well take Microsoft money now if they are gaining business and making money. But in the long run Linux is a strategic platform that India will use to move beyond the so called out sourcing programming business model to compete on an even basis with western software companies.
Microsoft no matter how much money it spends has nothing to offer in this regard.
Not even Monaco is as expensive as that! I guess in India it's more like $6/week to feed the average family.
Someone has to write the code and you have the most programmers in india, this = $$
Someone has to write serious government apps and people would pay money for this.
Open Source does not mean Free as in beer.
Open Source is Open Source.
You can sell programs, but the source code is free, you sell the compiled code, most people when they buy a game dont know how to or dont want to spend days compiling it, they want a CD, they want to pop it in, and have it work.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Microsoft and the USA has a monopoly on knowledge so what good is having the tools?
Instead of teaching them to fish, we give them fish.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
So...if I get you straight - India is a great big country consisting of people who suck at innovation and manufacturing and who therefore has but only one hope: to produce custom software for an operating system sold by a american company called Microsoft.
It's an interesting concept: streamlining an entire country so as to act as a subcontractor to one american company instead of targeting a world wide market. Its moronic, but nevertheless: interesting.
The best thing India could do to lift those 700 Million people out of poverty is to deregulate trade and privatize publicly owned industries. Is there anyone but the indians who arent surprised that socialism isnt generating wealth for the population?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
And that man worked hard to get where he is; and deserves an ounce of your respect for that. There are two sides to a coin; and the very fact that he gives back in areas that many others do not or would not donate time or money towards is laudable.
First, the only people that are worthy of my respect are those who can aspire to a Gates-like position in an ethical and honest manner. This would tend to explain why I have no respect for Gates. Second, I don't believe that Gates isn't deriving any benefit from the money he's giving way. This topic has come up before, and can be summed up in two words: tax writeoff. Face it- he has an agenda, and it's very much in his favor.
What a coincidence! So is the Pakistani High Command.
I'm developing web-applications. it just happens there are a number of handy applications to develop them under windows.
;-)
sweet eh? use windows to develop for linux. that's the way bill woulnd't like it i guess
Privacy is terrorism.
Larry Ellison already has most indian developers on his pay roll doing the most mundane of tasks, like manually hex editing oracle tablespaces and writing pl/sql in machine language.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
If open source is truly more cost effective (as I firmly believe) than Microsoft software, it will succeed in the long run. Of course, you are right that being "more cost effective" means less opportunity for revenue. In particular, open source eliminates much useless duplication of effort, meaning that it needs fewer programmers to provide the same range of products--but it still needs paid programmers to create the software in the first place. Open source software still offers plenty of opportunities for making money: consulting, custom development, some closed source packages running on top of open source systems, etc.
Don't bet on a loser--bet on what economics tells you must win in the long run. And I think that's pretty clearly open source.
I believe the original poster is of Indian origin [Roshan is an Indian name], plus he adds "We dont have rich natural resources..."]
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
This is an MS move on the market.
MS or Gates donations along with their other actions are political moves for the corporation. This is global politics. Call it business if you like, but there are MS goals behind each move.
This is an attack on resources owned by a country. Do not try to push "Bill is not bad, he gives...." as it makes you another FREE MS MARKETER whining as you aid the man and his company.
A dictator is still a dictator even if he/she opens a healthcare system for one group under his/her rule. Charitable acts do not remove any detrimental acts on the record. Regardless of future events or decisions, this man and his company are a drain on any future this planet has. No amount of kissing up will change this fact. No amount of free marketing from these comments will change this either.
I can't help but think that this is related.
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Just because you suck at anything or everything doesn't mean all Indians are alike.
I don't care about the politics on this issue. I am an IT worker. A core reason I got into this job was to meet as many people as possible.
A hand up and a foot on every chest...
To think that only a few hundred years ago, we were all in our separate continents, living in dull homogeneity.
Well,... African slaves to Europe and America, European crusaders to East Mediterranean, Asian nomads to Europe, Indonesians to Madagascar, Arabs to the Pacific, and others didn't stay in their continents
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Don't like his tactics? So why adopt them as your own?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
"I am absolutely convinced that no wealth in the world can help humanity forward, even in the hands of the most devoted worker. The example of great and pure individuals is the only thing that can lead us to noble thoughts and deeds. Money only appeals to selfishness and irresistibly invites abuse. Can anyone imagine Moses, Jesus or Gandhi armed with the money-bags of Carnegie?"
Action A: Indian Government Chooses Linux for Academia.
Action B: A highly sucessful linux show is completed in Bangalore
Action C: Mailing lists show lots of signs of an even bigger linux show happening in Bombay.
Action D: Microsoft Targets Indian developers
Action E: Bill gives $100 mn to a charitable cause in India.
There is obviously more connections between D,E and A,B and C than are obvious on face value. Surely, the timing for D could not be at a more critical time time. One of the software engineer producing factories of the world(India) is making a conscious shift towars linux. Enter Microsoft. The rest, will be history!
-- Reality is just an extended dream.
That's capitalism for you...survival of the fittest. Stop whining!
Now the company's technology is woefully behind OSS in every technical aspect and has the edge over OSS only in the user interface and marketing. Apple has them beat by a mile on the interface and OS X gives you the best of BSD and Apple.
The last straw is that Microsoft has grown by acquiring, or "innovating" if you will, external products and technologies into their own product line. Companies that grow through acquisition eventually hit appogee and then drop like a rock.
So this visit reeks of desparation. Given that starvation, undernourishment, even smoke from cooking fires are more serious health problems (in India) than AIDS, the choice to target AIDS is not for the benefit of India but instead audiences in North America and Europe.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
After all, it worked so well for Argentina, right... erm...
Cheers
Jon
Are there any safeguards to prevent the Linux name from being tarred (in the treacle sense) by the brush of unscrupulous vendors? Walmart (or AOL or even Microsoft) could easily create their own distro that does everything most Linux users dread -- media copy protection, subscription software, vendor controlled updates and restrictions. They have the might after all few outside the mainstream would have the insight that there is anything better out there when it comes to a well marketed product. Look at the sucess of AOL as an example.
How many of the existing Linux distros would not be tempted by a contract with one of the big companies, even if it does mean compromising their existing morals?
Powered by onion juice.
Its IDIOT REDNECKS like you that get my goat.
/.s PLEASE IGNORE MY RANT.SORRY FOR THE NOISE.
Ever been to a Banglore software factory?Ever in your life?who told you abt the stolen software?ever ever ever been outta your tariler park?
Just an assumption isnt it?because i who fscking worked in three places knows what happens if you bleeding install SHAREWARE before informing the BOSS...yeah got my balls ripped out by installing WInproxy and neglecting to mention to the boss it was over the trial period and i was using a friends registration.
For a fscking redneck like you let me put it in simpler terms-unless these chaps can have a framed license hanging on the walls they cant sleep at night nad suffer from chronic indigestion.
so go back to your trailer park and drink up your cheap beer.
after all just as you assume all indian software developers steal software i assume you are just a brainless dodo.now crawl back where you come from.....
TO ALL THE INTELLIGENT
Wanted : A Signature.
As a student studying at an Indian university in Mumbai(Bombay) I have observed that Microsoft far more dominant that Linux.
_None_ of our computers in any lab or any faculty run Linux. They all run Windows ( Pirated copies BTW..).
I study Computer science, and none of my teachers are familiar with Unix/Linux. They have a very superficial knowledge, if at all. At the same time, they are proficient at administering windows systems.
This is all contrary to the articles that have been posted on slashdot about the Indian government promoting linux in universities. It is not happening.
The main thrust for promoting Linux comes from the students. The student bodies try to organize workshops to familiarize other students about Linux. I have helped in such ventures and my experience is that most other students do not care much about Linux. Their thinking is that knowing how to use Microsoft products will help them more in getting a job than knowing about Linux. And thats all they care about.
-----
Where has it been said he made it where he is in a dishonest manner? I do know that Microsoft's position has been *maintained* in an unethical manner. Again, a lot of people seem to think that the very fact that people have material wealth makes them crooks.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
No, he is in fact the richest man in the world- he does have more money than anyone else- even Mr Burns.
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
I'm an ex-desi and I have a comment: First of all :"The generation of future Indians are at the hands of the developers" Good grief! Isnt that (kind of) over-reacting?
When is the last time you EVER saw Indians doing ONE thing, and only one thing only?
And Indian do rip software off aiight? Deal with it. So do Venezuelans or Turks, but not as much as India and China.
Just my $0.02.
This kind of article doesn't disturb me in the least. Linux will always grow because it can! Microsoft can do whatever they want to try and thwart the open source movement but it will always fail for one simple reason. The price!
Anybody can learn how to code. Admittedly, however, not everybody can code well but for every 10 coders there is one (perhaps more) who can code well. So, the odds are in the open source community's favor since Microsoft can only hire so many developers and only those developers who are in it for the money will probably go with m$. The others who feel the movement will probably tell m$ to go shove off.
Nah, this is not a threat. It's fodder. Bill Gates will never be able to overcome this movement short of bribing the whole open source community and while he may have the money to do such a thing, I don't believe the open source community is willing to give up their freedom for a little cash...at least that is how I see it.
There is a point in a human being's life where one learns that money is not everything but merely a means to some physical pleasures and necessities. The excess of money is not necessary for the necessities.
- J
Are you kidding, since whence will
No,
We maybe, a little bit too excited, however.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Nowhere in the taxonomical representation of plants/animals is there any mention of race:e cies. The concept of "race" being of genetic origin is incorrect. Nor does the term lend itself to a more sociological representation, for that use the term ethnic, as in "two seperate ethnic groups".
Kingdom,Phylum,Class,Order,Family,Genus,Sp
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
Do you have any evidence that that is actually what Argentina did?
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
If I remember correctly, Gates pulled a few very cunning, and I'd say very opportunistic moves during his initial forays into the world of business. I'd even go so far as to suggest that this way of doing business has pervaded Microsoft's corporate culture, thus explaining its ongoing lack of ethical behavior. Gates (or his corporate cronies) practically lied under oath during the trial. What does that say about his character?
Will that be all? :-)
Cheers
Jon
That doesn't say much at all, I admit. But is cunning and opportunistic the same as evil? I honestly have to think about that one [and maybe have a chat with some philosophical and pious people I know].
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
I offer a different analysis.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
My response to this was that this approach (the classical International Monetary Fund/World Bank interventions, as also seen throughout sub-equatorial Africa and much of South America) hadn't worked particularly well, citing Argentina as an example. I further posited that Argentina had been the golden child of the classical, Smithian, "roll-back-the-boundaries-of-the-state" economists found in Washington, as evidenced by the WB/IMF reports I linked, due largely to it's willingness to privatise the state and to open its borders to the free flow of both raw materials, goods and capital in exchange for the largesse of the WB/IMF (and yes, I do believe that conflating these two bodies is valid insofar as they have, for a long time, promulgated a unified viewpoint).
That the Argentinian economy and, as a result, the Argentinian polity is in tatters is, I assume, taken as read.
The analysis you proffered had no relevance to the above - it appeared to be merely a statement of the worldview so beloved of those people who put dogma above observation: specifically, if the translation of an idea into practice fails to succeed then the translators weren't sufficiently rigorous in their application.
[This is, of course, a handy position beloved of social, political and economic theorists: since properly scientific (and I use the word here merely as a convenient shorthand to mean the sort of evidence obtained through rationalist post-Aristolian experimental approaches commonly known as "the scientific method") evidence is, for various reasons, hard to obtain in these fields, the most ridiculous theories can be posited without any need to match them to observed results. cf Dean Swift's 'A Modest Proposal' :-) Absolutist positions have long been a favourite of a) religious zealots, b) neo-liberal fruitcakes and c) Leninist/Trotskyist fruitcakes. Frankly, they're all as ridiculous as each other.]
Comments? Or this could sensibly be taken to email before the /. discussion-closure hits.
Cheers
Jon
You seem to miss my point. What does inflating your currency (which is what Argentina did) have to do with free market policy (which is what you say Argentina did)? Argentina, like Turkey, is in trouble because its government thought that it could pay for everything by printing up money. Any free market liberal will tell you that inflating your currency is the road to rack and ruin. I really don't know if the World Bank told Argentina to inflate its currency. I hope not. In any case, Argentina did inflate (as did Turkey, just to replicate the experiment) and now their economy is in the dumps. Had they consulted even the least capable free-market economist, he would have predicted this future.
.......... like the world's largest Beowulf cluster. I had to say that, sorry. I've written an explanation of why a free market produces better results than centralization. Go read my analysis of the problem.
As for whether Economics is a science or not, well, a science makes predictions, and you can judge the scientific value of a theory by whether its predictions come true. Certainly there is a lot of folk-economics and faux-scientific economics. Such economics fails to pan out. You've seen that, I can tell. That doesn't mean that all economics is crap. Here's one prediction that's true: to the extent that it raises people's wages, a minimum wage law creates unemployment.
One type of economics which fails to suck over the long-term is free-market economics. Why? Because freedom lets everyone solve problems in parallel. You know,
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
SEMINAR ANNOUNCEMENT
Title: Are Frogs Turing Compatible?
Speaker: Don "The Lion" Knuth
ABSTRACT
Several researchers at the University of Louisiana have been studying
the computing power of various amphibians, frogs in particular. The problem
of frog computability has become a critical issue that ranges across all areas
of computer science. It has been shown that anything computable by an amphi-
bian community in a fixed-size pond is computable by a frog in the same-size
pond -- that is to say, frogs are Pond-space complete. We will show that
there is a log-space, polywog-time reduction from any Turing machine program
to a frog. We will suggest these represent a proper subset of frog-computable
functions.
This is not just a let's-see-how-far-those-frogs-can-jump seminar.
This is only for hardcore amphibian-computation people and their colleagues.
Refreshments will be served. Music will be played.
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...