Japan Takes A Look At Open Source Software

irish_spic writes " Accorting to this AP story (in yahoo news), the public management ministry is setting up a panel of scholars and computer experts, including Microsoft officials in order to study the use of Open Source software in the government. The article cites concerns about costs and security as the reason for the study. Me wonders if they are serious or just trying to get discounts from MS."

Comments

Haha!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

RMS, me love you long time!

Re:Haha!!!

[AuMatar]

So- is that love free as in beer or free as in freedom?

Re:Haha!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Free as in herpes.

Japan takes a look at open source software

[Anonymous Coward]

Japan finds linux zealots, looks at slashdot. Japan gets scared.

Japan calls Microsoft instead.

The end.

Microsoft?

[Talennor]

And why would anyone being payed by Microsoft want to support open sourced software? especially when they'd get so much money otherwise?

Re:Microsoft?

[athakur999]

I think that's the point. The panel would be pretty useless if it was only composed of OSS advocates, as they'd only hear and consider one side of the story. The closed source side needs to be there to give them the pros and cons of closed source, allowing them to make a better decision. That's the theory, anyway.

Re:Microsoft?

[Iguanaphobic]

It gives them the opportunity to FUD the rest of the panel.

Re:Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem being that MS has a financial motive behind their recommendations. OSS advocates only have a moral or utopian driving force behinf them. To equalize the situation, they would have to consult a company like redhat, promising that if they go the OSS route, that they will contract them.

Re:Microsoft?

[b0r1s]

Many proponents of Open Source are employed by companies who support their ideology. Examples of this were Bruce Perens (formerly at HP) and Linus (employed by transmeta, but most of his work is still focused on the kernel).

Yes, even OSS advocates can have economic factors driving their beliefs.

Re:Microsoft?

[praedor]

Ya'll do NOT get it. The panel shouldn't contain OSS partisans NOR M$ lackeys. It should contain ONLY individuals capable of running an OBJECTIVE study one way or another. All you get with this nonsense are two opposing sides calling each other names (metaphorically speaking). It is a foregone conclusion that the OSS people will push the great benefits of OSS while the M$ clown will spout how great M$-crap is, blah, blah. No objectivity anywhere to be seen.

An objective panel made up of objective individuals who run a faithful study on total costs, and benefits, top to bottom, money-wise and moral/political/freedom-wise.

Anything else is bullcrap.

Re:Microsoft?

[x3ro]

and where do you think you're going to find these magical people? :P

objectivity itself is a nice idea, but, like platos ideal forms, is simply a figment - it doesnt actually exist anywhere. the only people who would truly be neutral are people outside the industry who dont work with computers. and they wouldnt be knowledgeable enough.

Re:Microsoft?

[3Ddgg]

testing

Re:Microsoft?

[3Ddgg]

This isn't America, ya'll

They don't have this strange, abstract, dualistic notion of objective people. It's a ludicrous notion anyway.

I would suggest to you that this is only a first step in a very long process. I think this meeting is probably not intended to make any decisions. If it is a first step, they are probably just investigating. The "decision makers" probably aren't even at the meeting.

I have no idea of the actual composition of this meeting, but I would be surprised if representatives were present when a decision is made. It will probably happen when everyone agrees in private and nobody is sticking their neck (read: career) out.

Re:Microsoft?

[CyrusSukhia]

Actually, this is the way many companies make product decisions. They ask vendors to come in and sell the strong points of their product. The objectivity comes from those asking for the pitch. To expect anything more purely objective is really quite naive.

Re:Microsoft?

[praedor]

I am not a computer "scientist" nor economist, blah, blah, so I am not one to actually DO such a study but...though I use and love Linux, I absolutely could be objective. Howso? I am a SCIENTIST. I only give a crap about reality. It doesn't matter what my personal conceits or preferences, if the data doesn't support my personal preference for the answer, then that is that. One MUST accept reality. I would be quite happy on several levels if the result did favor my personal biases and preferences, iceing on the cake, but I am certainly capable of conducting an OBJECTIVE study no matter my biases.

The data is the data, the results the results, it doesn't matter one way or another if they are to my liking or not, they would be reality. They would be fact.

If I can do it, then anyone else can do it too. But this panel isn't setup to be this way. It is setup for partisans pushing partisan agendas with no desire for a true and faithful study.

Re:Microsoft?

[praedor]

Now that you brought it up...our justice system is CRAP. It isn't about truth, it is about the APPEARANCE of truth and trickery. It is all about manipulating individuals rather than presenting the facts (ALL the facts) and letting the conclusion practically make itself.

In a correct and better justice system, there wouldn't be a prosecuter and a defense mutually trying to nail the accused regardless of FACTS or save the accused regardless of FACTS. Also, valid, real FACTS would not be tossed out, ever.

If police come by facts in an unacceptable manner, don't punish society by tossing the data out, punish those who collected the data in an unacceptable manner, from the Police Commish down to the officers. Make it a PERSONAL interest for them to not act inappropriately. As it is in the US, a person who clearly murdered someone could get off free because of a police evidence collection mistake, regardless of the FACT that the evidence clearly proves (scientifically speaking) that the individual did it. No. Not acceptable. You punish the victims family and society for a mistake of a few specific individuals. KEEP the evidence but punish those who collected it.

Next, the lawyers should be scientifically trained and be objective. The court should consider the available data and make a conclusion based ONLY on that and not allow showmanship, histrionics, spurious arguments, etc, to cloud what is a simple question: did the person here do what he/she is accused of doing? It should NOT be based on whether the defense or prosecution put on a better show.

Scientific questions aren't answered on the basis of grandstanding, showmanship, and subjective nonsense above all else. A conclusion stands or falls on the evidence/data. ALL the available data. Simply because a bit of otherwise valid data was collected in an unConstitutional manner doesn't make it magically turn into invalid data. It is what it is. The unConstitutional part is merely a play on emotion and things totally unrelated to whether the accused did what he is accused of doing. It should be addressed in a different manner and forum (nail the police investigators, the department, etc).

Re:Microsoft?

[x3ro]

i do, actually, agree with much of the spirit of what youre saying - especially your last comment about partisan agendas.

however, id say that objectivity is a goal, not a reality. 'the data' is meaningless without a perspective - especially when the topic is as broad an subjective as 'which is better in this situation, OSS or commercial software'. better for whom? better in what way? which aspect is more important than another? once all the data are collated, it takes value judgements to make sense of them. the truth is not out there - it is a construct. we make our own meanings, for better or for worse.

... in the same sentence?

[RobertB-DC]

The panel on Open Source is to include Microsoft representatives? How can that sentence even be written without laughing out loud... I'd have gotten first post if I could have held a straight face!

Re:... in the same sentence?

[Anonymous Coward]

The panel on Open Source is to include Microsoft representatives.

Simply its an oxymoron.

Re:... in the same sentence?

[b0r1s]

Would you rather they simply post an "Ask Slashdot?". Would you want a group considering adopting DRM technologies to only hear speakers advocating DRM, or would you want anti-DRM speakers to be heard as well?

When you study things, you find pros and cons. Is there any better way to see two sides of a story than invite both advocates and opponents of a given issue? If Open Source is indeed superior, it will be shown through discussions from both sides. If the presence of MS representatives is sufficient to show disuade Japan from adopting Open Source, then there are obviously faults that need to be fixed.

You don't study technology by gathering together a bunch of advocates: you study technology by pitting advocates against opponents.

Re:... in the same sentence?

[ispel]

Would you rather they simply post an "Ask Slashdot?". Would you want a group considering adopting DRM technologies to only hear speakers advocating DRM, or would you want anti-DRM speakers to be heard as well?

This is a bit OT, but /. has some of the most insightful, to-the-point, easy to read commentary anywhere. Despite the nay-sayers, I've found that Slashdot has fairly balanced discussion (however, I can't say the same thing about the posted stories). One of the best and most efficient ways of exploring topics that I know and care about is reading the moterated comments about them on Slashdot. Hey, if a Gov't wants to make decisions on Information Technology issues by posting to "Ask Slashdot", I'm for it.

Ironic..

[joshua404]

The ultimate closed source society ponders adopting open source technology..

Re:Ironic..

[Dark Paladin]

Now, if the article was about *China* or North Korea that would have made sense.

But Japan the most closed society? I mean, come on! Isn't the national mascot an Italian Plumber?

Re:Ironic..

[Zeebs]

Japan used to be at least. They wouldn't allow their culture to be corupted by out side influeces. Isolationist to a new extream. This was pre-WW2. Now as far as I know many are still trying to minimize outside(read american) cultural influence. Also last I heard it was damn near impossible to get japanese citizenship. Too me it seems like an effort to reduce 'cultural pollution' if I can coin a phrase.

Re:Ironic..

[Anonymous Coward]

As a several-year student of the Japanese language, allow me to interject that Okinawa is far away from Japan and that Japanese people often spruce up their conversation with English the way English people spruce up their conversation with French or Latin. Japanese girls are also notorious for thinking that caucasians, at least, are very handsome. And in general I've found Japanese people to be profoundly helpful, polite, and intelligent.

Re:Ironic..

[ruriruri]

i believe the national mascot is currently tama-chan the seal.

Re:Ironic..

[Anonymous Coward]

"Japanese girls are also notorious for thinking that caucasians, at least, are very handsome"

Bring on the Japanese GIRLS!!!

Re:Ironic..

[Fulcrum of Evil]

They don't even like Koreans, who look (don't tell them this) exactly like they do.

And you certainly don't want to tell them that they are likely descended from Koreans.

Re:Ironic..

[stevejsmith]

Coming from a marine, this is disgusting. Especially the bit about looking exactly the same. Could you tell a Spanish person from a French person from a German person? Hell yeah. If you were born and raised in a Japanese society, you would feel this way, too. And plus, the island of Okinawa is extremely isolated. What do you expect? Japan is a homogenious culture. Don't confused homogeniety with racism.

And what does the fact that you're African-American have to do with anything? I get the feeling that you're 'playing the race card,' although I can't figure out why.

I must also ask, what were the pretenses of you being stationed on Okinawa? If it was because of World War II, then I'd say you're completely oblivious. Obviously they will be angry at people who are occupying their land and who are killing their people. If not, I'm interested, why were you there?

And please come forward, don't be an anonymous coward when you don't need to be.

Re:Ironic..

[jericho4.0]

Japanese citizenship is jor Japanese people, even many generations removed. Germany also hands out citizenship by blood, but that might have changed with EU rules.

Citizenship by ethnicity seems to be a pretty archaic idea, maybe these countries should reconsider.

Re:Ironic..

[Galvatron]

Could you tell a Spanish person from a French person from a German person?

Assuming you standardized clothing, hairstyles, and time in the sun (for tanning), I doubt it. Sure, you might be right more often than pure chance would suggest, but you wouldn't be anywhere near 100% accuracy. When you walk down a street in the US, can you honestly tell me that you can look at people and identify the origin of their ancestors?

The Japanese do discriminate against non-Japanese. Why do you think it is still such a homogenous society, when it is a rich country? Where is the flood of immigrants that other rich countries get? My girlfriend went to Japan several years ago, as part of a school trip. One of her assignments on the trip was to ask 20 people the same question. She chose "Do you think it's alright for Japanese to marry non-Japanese." Keep in mind, this is a white, clearly American, girl asking this question, so any answer other than "yes, of course" would obviously be offensive. Even so, she got several "no" responses. They were mainly elderly people who gave that response, so hopefully that means the racism is diminishing as the pre-WWII generation dies, but at the moment, it is still very strong.

P.S. I am not the original anonymous coward.

Re:Ironic..

[IIRCAFAIKIANAL]

(general reply to this thread, not just this post)

I love Japan. I am also aware that many older Japanese are very racist (particularly against blacks), classist, and sexist. Try looking up the expression "Office Lady" or burakumin and you will see what I mean. Of course, things are changing and they are becoming less isolationist and are gradually picking up a lot of foreign culture (ie/ see the rise of the use of Janglish in Japan :).

BTW, Japanese people don't look the same as Koreans or Chinese either (hell, a lot of chinese look totally different, depending on their origin). Koreans are darker and Japanese are yellower, for example. That's like saying that all black people look the same (which is funny given the original poster's self-identification as african-american).

Keep in mind I am no expert on this subject (just a healthy interest in Japan and friends from Japan, China, and Korea that have filled me in on their part of the world) so if someone can give more accurate examples (ie/ someone from Japan :) that would be fortunate.

Re:Ironic..

[stevejsmith]

Well duh! If you standardized clothing, hairstyles, and tan they would look the same, but that is what makes them different (specifically the tan)! If a person dressed in a gigantic purple bubble, was pale as good be, and had hair three feet tall, they would be different. If you took all of that stuff away they would be the same, but you cannot tell me they are the same as you.

As for the elderly people saying that it is not okay for a Japanese to make a non-Japanese, of course they are going to say that! Many of them had lived through World War II, lived through Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and lived through Vietnam (although not that relative, some pretty attrocious things did happen). They are a very nationalistic people. They currently hesitate to say the current emporer's name aloud (as they do any emporer that is alive). That their culture, but it certainly is not racism.

Re:Ironic..

[koko775]

I must say that your view is particularly biased. I am Japanese, and I assure you that for the most part, we are not racist. It is unfair to judge us based on what you've seen Okinawa. And as you are not Asian, I can see how it would be difficult for you to distinguish between Koreans, Asians, and Chinese. It is actually not that hard to tell at all for some people. They don't even like Koreans, who look (don't tell them this) exactly like they do. First of all, you're wrong. I believe this has already been explained. Second of all, WTF? "Don't tell [us] this?" I know about ZERO Japanese who would really care that someone thinks that they look like Koreans other than telling them that's not true and shrugging it off. I think it's YOU making unfair judgements of the Japanese people, racist. You make me sick.

Re:Ironic..

[Belly]

Incorrect. Anyone can apply for and receive Japanese citizenship if they meet some basic requirements (minimum of about 5 years residence in Japan is the main one. Japanese by ancestry is not.) There are a number of causasian and others who are not Japanese by ancestry, who are Japanese citizens.

Re:Ironic..

[Galvatron]

If you standardized clothing, hairstyles, and tan they would look the same

Exactly my point. They're not different "races," they're the same, just with a different culture. So saying Japanese look like Koreans (or vice versa) is absolutely true.

That their culture, but it certainly is not racism.

Calling something "culture" does not automatically make it okay. It used to be American "culture" that whites should not marry blacks. That was unbelievably racist. How is this different? In many ways, the Japanese still have an "ubermensch" mentality, because unlike the Nazis, they weren't made to feel ashamed for the atrocities they committed. Indeed, America takes more heat for having dropped the A-bombs than Japan takes for the rape and enslavement of large portions of Asia. Ever hear of the "Rape of Nanking?" A quote from that link:

Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 Chinese civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered by the invading troops. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of them were then mutilated or murdered.

For comparison purposes, only 150,000 people were killed outright in the dropping of the two atomic weapons. Perhaps that many again had their lives substantially shortened by radiation, still fewer than the number of Chinese killed in early 1938, to say nothing of the subsequent years, and the other invaded nations. Even if you still think America was somehow at fault for the war, I've never heard an American say that we shouldn't marry German people, because of WWII. And the Japanese don't just say "don't marry Americans," they say "don't marry non-Japanese." Again, it's like the Nazis wanting to keep the purity of the Aryan race. Simply disgusting.

Oh, by the way, it's spelled "emperor." Just a tip.

Re:Ironic..

[JimFromJersey]

Nah, Japs really look down on blacks. Saw this shit a lot when I was homeported out of Yoko. The Japanese feel that part of their strength is in the mono-ethnic nature of their culture.

Re:Ironic..

[stevejsmith]

It's not racist to say that you shouldn't marry one from another culture. The Japanese culture is a complex one, and the truth is that very few Westerners can master it. Now if they said "all non-Japanese are dumb," it would be racist. But they didn't. All they said was that it's not usually okay to marry one.

Re:Ironic..

[stevejsmith]

I must admit, I have never lived nor visisted it, but I know for a fact that they are far more heterogenous than we are. They don't speak different dialects (at least on the main islands, I think we can all agree that Okinawa doesn't exactly count in these arguments), they mostly of the same religion (a mix between Buddhism and Shinto, but they are not very religious in a Western sense), for the most part they have the same political ideals, and most of them have the same background. That's far more than we can say for the United States or even the United Kingdom.

Re:Ironic..

[stevejsmith]

Or could it be the fact that a nation who they are both competing with economically, one that bombed the hell out of them (2,000,000+ deaths, many from the horrible effects of radiation), one that made the emperor publically humiliate himself by renouncing his divinity, etc. is stationing troops on their islands?

Re:Ironic..

[Galvatron]

Now if they said "all non-Japanese are dumb," it would be racist

I don't know about "dumb," but they do call us "devils."

Re:Ironic..

[JimFromJersey]

well that is really interesting ... except for the fact that they do not have any problem with white service members. So, unless the Japanese are under the impression that USA stands for United States of Africa and it was Afica that kicked the living shit out of their war-mongering, brutal ass then it seems more likely that they are a mono-ethnic, racist country. Oh and please cite source for your 2 mil+ number and www.ihateamerica.com doesn't count. The japanese should consider themselves lucky, life would have been much different if, say, Patton had been in charge of their occupation.

Re:Ironic..

[stevejsmith]

About the 2,000,000 figure: read it in a text book. Sorry, don't still have the book in my posession. Regarding the black marine being hated: he represents America. Maybe they just dislike America. What's wrong with them disliking America? You would be angry too if somebody dropped the largest bomb ever used on two of your main cities and the casualites were almost 100% civilian.

"Objective"

[mrjive]

Somehow I get the feeling a panel that includes MS employees won't be that "objective"

This was already posted on Saturday...

[koganuts]

Oops. :)

Re:This was already posted on Saturday...

[mrjive]

It's not like many people are wasting time reading /. on a Saturday though.....

Re:This was already posted on Saturday...

[Talennor]

And yet this article mentions that Microsoft gets to cover itself with their own representatives that will probably come home crying

Re:This was already posted on Saturday...

[Ebon Praetor]

Slight difference. On Saturday, it was the Japan Times, a leftist paper that very few people actually read. This time, it's a respected news source, the Associated Press, even if it is in the guise of yahoo.

Re:This was already posted on Saturday...

[Cheese Cracker]

Slight difference. On Saturday, it was the Japan Times, a leftist paper that very few people actually read. This time, it's a respected news source, the Associated Press, even if it is in the guise of yahoo.

Well, the leftist paper was citing a big Japanese newspaper. The only difference now is that it's the Associated Press reporting the same thing.

Re:This was already posted on Saturday...

[whereiswaldo]

Tell that to the Microsoft trolls who probably get paid OT on Saturdays and Sundays, hehe. ;)

Does it matter?

[Iguanaphobic]

Me wonders if they are serious or just trying to get discounts from MS.

Does it really matter? The end result is more press, more mindshare and for them to come right out and say that they are concerned about security is just... excellent. Soon the rest of the worlds governments will all be running Linux and the US will become a technological backwater. I guess if I want to stay employed here, I should start working on that law degree.

Re:Does it matter?

[BigBir3d]

The other side of that coin is when/if Japan sticks with Microsoft. Japan sticking with them means a hell of a lot more to most people than, say, Peru.

"The Japanese government uses Microsoft XYZ; it must be good!"

Re:Does it matter?

[Iguanaphobic]

"The Japanese government uses Microsoft XYZ; it must be good!"

Well, with the rampant corruption at high levels in Japan, I think that people will take the Japanese governments eventual pro-MS decision with Cayman Island bank accounts in mind.

Re:Does it matter?

[PhillipC]

Does anyone remember the Peter Sellers flick "The Mouse That Roared"?

I think a few nations have been watching that recently.

Re:Does it matter?

[Jason Earl]

Microsoft has got the world to lose. If Free Software gets passed over this time, then it simply waits until the next round of upgrades. Three years from now when [insert country here] takes a look at upgrades GNU/Linux will still be there, and it will be better than ever (and still just as Free).

With all of the countries taking a serious look at Linux it is bound to make some progress. More importantly, Free Software keeps Microsoft honest. All of a sudden they aren't the only game in town. If they push their luck too hard then folks will switch. This gives people the leverage they need to actually negotiate with Microsoft.

Re:Does it matter?

[pben]

The USA doesn't care if they are the only one at anything. Just as an American who long is a meter, how heavey is a kg. George Bush was happy with the thought of going it alone into Iraq. If we were the only ones in the world using Windows we still would. Hope you like law school ;-)

Re:Does it matter?

[Jason Earl]

I sell products and services based on Free Software that compete with Microsoft's products and services. Anything that shows that my services are becoming more competitive makes me happy. When GNU/Linux is even considered as a Microsoft replacement by someone like the government of Japan it makes it easier for me to sell Free Software solutions to my customers. Basically this type of stuff is free advertising of the very best kind.

While there certainly are enough people here at /. that hate Microsoft for one reason or another, I do not fall in that category. I have never said that Microsoft was a monopoly (they certainly are the 800 lb. Gorilla of software, however), and I personally am glad that Microsoft survived their DOJ trial without setting a precedent of government involvement in the software sector. Government has no business telling software companies what software they can bundle with their product.

I hope that clears things up.

my my my...

[Machine9]

maybe there are more intelligent ways to react to this story that by using over-used stereotypes. and "me love you long time" is from a vietnam movie... I'd love to see Japan get into OSS though...

Japan just shot themselves in the foot...

[dethl]

"including Microsoft officials in order to study the use of Open Source software in the government.i>

ummmm...hello? M$ just told our (US) govt that open source is bad for security...what makes Japan think that M$ won't fuck them over? M$ will pay out this committee to give approval to M$ products over open source products.

Re:Japan just shot themselves in the foot...

[Black Copter Control]

I think that they're expecting Microsoft to nay-say Open Source as much as possible. This means that if - despite having MS on the board - they conclude that OS is still ag ood idea, it'll be hard for MS to say "now give us a kick at the can". MS will have already had their kick at the can, but with knowledgeable people at hand and able to respond to MS FUD as precisely that.

I'd say that this is much better than MS being given an opportunity to respond to the report directly to the politicians and in the absense of of those same OS-knowledgeable experts.

bad Japanese impersonation

[L. VeGas]

Me wonders

Is that some kind of racist joke?

Not completed related, but

[lingqi]

Just some observation I have since I am in Japan and everything.

Microsoft (or BSA, anyhow) seem to be spending a lot (i mean a LOT) more money here on "anti-piracy" campains than in the US.

Trains are usually littered with BSA (piracy is crime) posters, and they have a HUGE (like maybe 40 feet across) sign in front of Shinjuku station (you know, downtown tokyo and all).

At the same time, I havn't seen free-software related stuff at all since I have been here. It might be the language barrier, but ancedotally speaking, I don't think I am seeing the same % of shelf space devoted to linux than in the US.

Re:Not completed related, but

[molo]

Interesting.. I would bet they are playing off of the lower/repressed impulse to ignore/break the law in Japan. I once heard that in Japan, criminals expect to get caught.

Regarding Free Software in Japan.. At the Japanese bookstores in San Fran and San Jose (Kinokuniya), there are translations of the O'Rielly books available. Plenty of stuff on Linux and Unix as otherwise as well. The material is available. Perhaps not the mindshare.

I wonder what slashdot.jp has to say about all this.

Re:Not completed related, but

[BJH]

You know why the BSA spends so much on advertising here?
Every company I'been at here has a major piracy problem - from the OS to applications. It's not condoned, but there's a 'nudge-nudge, wink-wink' atmosphere that makes it easy to turn a blind eye.

By the way, if you want to see free-software related 'stuff' here, go to a bookstore. Currently, the following magazines dealing with free software are widely available:

Software Design
Linux Magazine
Nikkei Linux
BSD Magazine
FreeBSD Press

How many does the US have? Linux Journal, ummm....

if you want to buy a distribution, Laox Computer-kan in Akihabara has a fairly good selection.

Re:Not completed related, but

[pao93]

I am also in Japan and work in a technically related sector. There is lots of free-software related stuff around here and if anything, it's at least on par with what's in the west. Most people I work with are pretty aware of Linux and there are a scattering of machines around the network, just like it was back home. In my own case, I use it primarily as an internal web and samba server for my department. Just walk into any book store and there's at least 3 good quality Japanese linux/unix magazines. Huge sections in all the book shops on linux. There's lots of linux and unix only shops in Akihabara. Sure, you see lots of Microsoft propaganda and the BSA stuff occasionally but it's hardly huge. I mean, come on, last week one of my trains was ALL (as in 100% of the space) Apple advertising and the next one was all GAP advertisements. I've yet to see the same from MS or the BSA (though i might have been lucky and not hopped on that train). Anyways, that being said, the big problem in getting it adopted wide scale here is going to be the same as anywhere else: lack of ease of use on the desktop, compatability with office or the other Japanese Word Processors, etc etc. And it probably won't be as cheap as we'd like to believe. This being Japan i'm sure the company contracted out to install all these systems in the government will charge a fortune in service and support fees. Trust me, having been involved in negotiating several major software contracts here, nothing comes cheap, even if it is something being run on OSS backbones. Hey, maybe that's what this is all about! Some corrupt politician is probably doing this to get money from one of his sidelines so he can afford to go the more expensive snack bars...

Re:Not completed related, but

[shepd]

>Yeah, we all saw "Rising Sun" too. It is _not_ indicative of reality, moron.

Yup, because in real life we always insult someone to their face when we think they've made an honest mistake.

Re:Not completed related, but

[gilgongo]

I've met a several "ordinary" (as in non-geek) Japanese who have heard of GNU/Linux. One of them was fascinated by the fact that I worked with it and wanted to know all about about it.

If M$ look at their history books they will find it littered with examples of how Western economic giants were brought to their knees by Japenses companies playing the same game better, but by different means. A version of this pattern *could* play out with M$, Free Software and an as yet unknown Japanese set of organisations.

Its like having a cigarette company decide if toba

[CodePyro]

Does anyone else think Microsoft Employees would be bias? I think the panel should only include people who are not bias and experts in the field of open source and security. This definitely rules out Microsoft.

FreeBSD?

[Gareman]

My understanding is that BSD is fairly popular in some Japanese companies right now. A college friend of mine was the guy who translated the FreeBSD docs into Japanese. Linux might be a bit too political, but BSD OS's seem to take the conservative, stable approach. --gary

Re:FreeBSD?

[Telastyn]

iirc there's far more japanese developers for the BSDs, so it probably stands to reason their colleages and friends probably know about them more. Very important for things that (at least until somewhat recently) depend on word of mouth.

Rerun from Saturday

[Melantha_Bacchae]

This story already ran Saturday (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/11/16/14222 10&mode=flat&tid=109) on Slashdot, citing an article in Japan Today.

Chief Tsujimori: "I won't let you get away. I will never let you escape."
Godzilla elegantly lifts his tail skyward to give her the "finger", crashes it down on the water, and submerges.
"Godzilla X Megagiras", 2000

Re:bad Japanese impersonation

[WWWWolf]

"Me wonders"
Is that some kind of racist joke?

Probably not, because Bad English is an Universal Language and as such one thing that unites the whole planet. It's this Global Thingking.

Rising sun economy going down

[cryptochrome]

Considering the present state of the Japanese economy, I'm sure free software is looking pretty good right about now to a lot of people.

Re:bad Japanese impersonation

[mrjive]

No....it's most likely an IRC-ism:
/me slaps so-and-so around with a large trout

Microsoft Representative?

[Morgahastu]

If they did not have a microsoft employee on the board I wouldn't think that they are just trying to get a good deal.

Why on earth would they have someone from microsoft there? They are obviously just going to spit out pre written marketing crap. They sure as hell won't say "ok so OSS is free, more secure and more stable.. but come on plz chose us!!". More like "Here are the top 10 reasons to switch to XP: Chat with friends and family.!!..."

This would be like you being on a panel of people to decide if you should get a raise or not.

Re:Microsoft Representative?

[Machine9]

you'd be amazed how persuasive "chat with friends and family (with cool icons!!!)" is to japanese hyper-culture. though maybe it's a lesser concern to the govt.

Re:Microsoft Representative?

[Morgahastu]

mod parent up!

This isn't redundant, its different.

I can just picture the Microsoft Reprensting reading off the back of the Windows XP box, or even worst that girl who did the fake Mac-2-XP switch.

Shhhhh...

[SkulkCU]

Shhh!

I get all my karma by reposting all the (Score:5) comments on repeat stories.

Re:Shhhhh...

[xenode]

Hey! Someone said that last time!

Re:bad Japanese impersonation

[Schmelter]

I don't think so. /me is a command for ICQ. For example, rather than just typing "I wonder so and so", which would come out like
Schmelter>I wonder so and so

I could type "/me wonders so and so" Which would come out like
Schmelter wonders so and so

SP3 and DRM sucks....

[RazorJ_2000]

Anyone who has read that cursed SP3 EULA, and is concerned with MS's continually increasing use of force over their User Base (read: DRM, activation, etc) can't be too surprised by this. Yes, MS products are expensive and for 15yrs+ have become a constantly increasing % of an overall system cost. Big surprise. It's no wonder that slowly, country after country is starting to either re-evaluate their stance, or altogether shift away from MS products.

About time

[Anonymous Coward]

I have always heard that Japan discriminates against foreign products, like using a rating system in which foreign products cannot be rated higher than the equivalent of "B". Thus, those who want the best will buy only "A". If this was true, it would seem their culture would demand a home-grown operating system rather than accept MS as a standard.

Re:About time

[Anonymous Coward]

I have always heard that Japan discriminates against foreign products, like using a rating system in which foreign products cannot be rated higher than the equivalent of "B". Thus, those who want the best will buy only "A".

Exactly... those discriminatory bastards! They should be more polite and instead simply impose tarrifs and unfair laws against foreign companies to stop them from dumping so that inferior domestic goods from companies that can afford to lose $2 billion have an unfair playing ground to steal our money...

Open Source in government

[Meat Blaster]

I'm almost ready to say that Open Source is a perfect fit for government work -- it's generally cheaper to procure than commercial software (potentially as expensive in the end if you factor in TCO, but that's besides the point), more likely to support a feature set with stability (commercial software may offer more capabilities overall, but may not fully support your hardware), and permits software development done for the government to also directly benefit the people, something not entirely possible with commercial software.

However, I'm concerned with issues regarding security. We have all heard the old saw regarding closed source vs. open source: 'Security through obscurity doesn't do the job', however this begs the following question: when does handing the enemy a blueprint of the fortress make guarding the castle easier? With Open Source, I'm concerned that not only are hackers being issued a blueprint for an attack, but that they can also build flaws into the system before it is even implemented!

Irregardless of the benefits Open Source can bestow on the government, it brings with it a flaw of extraordinary magnitude. Witness the problems caused when the latest flaw is discovered in BIND or ftpd, or when a trojan is actually placed in the software people use to protect their system (tcpdump)! Maybe the Japanese are just trying to wrangle a better price out of Microsoft, but I think it's possible they don't want to be left unguarded a couple of months whence after picking the cheaper solution.

Open Source is a bargain that offers far more than what you pay for; however, its track record with security is spotty, and who do you sue when things go wrong?

Re:Open Source in government

[CMRichar]

...and who do you sue when things go wrong?

is it just me, or is this one of those really, really american things to say? just that when something goes wrong, it's not "What went wrong and how can we fix it so it doesnt happen again" but "It went wrong, sue the fuckers!" (Insert rant about responisbility, parents, and Columbine here). Why is it that people cant possibly say, "oh, I fucked up, because i didnt read the freely accessible instructions, but instead have to blame someone else? just my $0.02.....

Re:Open Source in government

[xenocyst]

To answer and continue your analogy: Yes, we give the enemy the plans to the castle, but we also give a whole shitload of castle designers and defense experts the plans, and they go over them with a fine-tooth comb and make sure our castle is well designed. While this is more true in the BSD world than the linux world, the same applies top both. Programmers can't build trojans into major software because anyone looking at the source, who has the right experience, will see it and it will be removed. This is the basis on which OS works.

Also note how quickly trojans slipped into major OS software are discovered, usually very quickly (matter of hours?) of the trojaned software being posted. Specifically, compare that to the (lack of [days, weeks, never]) speed with which M$ updates major security holes in thier products.

Re:Open Source in government

[nicomachus]

..and who do you sue when things go wrong?

Read your Microsoft EULA lately? Whom do you sue when Windows goes wrong?

Re:Open Source in government

[Fiveeight]

when does handing the enemy a blueprint of the fortress make guarding the castle easier?

Never, but does employing a castle designer who won't tell you how the gates are secured make sense? Also, it's not going to take long for a smart enemy to find the holes in your security, do you trust the external designer to carefully check your castle every day? And quickly fix the problem? Even when it's expensive and embarrassing to fix?

Irregardless of the benefits Open Source can bestow on the government, it brings with it a flaw of extraordinary magnitude. Witness the problems caused when the latest flaw is discovered in BIND or ftpd, or when a trojan is actually placed in the software people use to protect their system (tcpdump)!

Excel 97 had a flight sim hidden in it, are you sure there are no trojans in your commercial software? Even the stuff that's been patched dozens of times? At least when there's an exploit in OSS, you find out about it as soon as everyone else does, not depending on how big a customer you are.

Open Source is a bargain that offers far more than what you pay for; however, its track record with security is spotty

Microsoft has a good security record? Software in general is insecure because it's all new and most people don't take security seriously enough. I don't think OSS is any worse than commercial systems, and I don't see security problems ever being completely solved, how long have people been trying to keep valuables locked up? Again, at least with OSS you find out about the problem fairly quickly.

who do you sue when things go wrong?

Who do you sue when you get shot dead? If your critical systems get destroyed then liability becomes academic, you're out of business. Has anyone ever won a software quality or security lawsuit against a large company?

Re:Open Source in government

[karlm]

However, I'm concerned with issues regarding security. We have all heard the old saw regarding closed source vs. open source: 'Security through obscurity doesn't do the job', however this begs the following question: when does handing the enemy a blueprint of the fortress make guarding the castle easier? With Open Source, I'm concerned that not only are hackers being issued a blueprint for an attack, but that they can also build flaws into the system before it is even implemented!

This is a risk regardless (as opposed to irregardless, which is not a word) of the openness of the source. Which MS product shipped with the "Netscapeengineers are weenies" backdoor password?

Irregardless of the benefits Open Source can bestow on the government, it brings with it a flaw of extraordinary magnitude. Witness the problems caused when the latest flaw is discovered in BIND or ftpd, or when a trojan is actually placed in the software people use to protect their system (tcpdump)! Maybe the Japanese are just trying to wrangle a better price out of Microsoft, but I think it's possible they don't want to be left unguarded a couple of months whence after picking the cheaper solution.

I assume you mean "Regardless" (without regard or without regarding) instead of "Irregardless". (It's not a real word, but it would mean the opposotie of the sense youwere trying for if it was a real word.)

OpenSource will almost definately get you faster patches (at least compared to MicroSoft's security-though-denial strategy). Also, remember when MS shipped a CD with a virus-infected product? (Does someone want to find me the /. story or another link?) You can manuallycheck for all known types of flaws/malicious modifications with OpenSource. With closed source you can run virus checks, but it's usually infeasable to decompile and look for back doors.

Open Source is a bargain that offers far more than what you pay for; however, its track record with security is spotty, and who do you sue when things go wrong?

Who do you give thr death penalty after a suicide attack? If you fall back on the legal system or the prison system, you've got problems. When was the last time a customer sucessfully sued MS for damages due to faulty products or neglegent design/coding practices? Spotty scurity is usually better than rock-steady-awful security. There's also a lot to be said for being about to do your own audts instead of having to trust the vendor.

Re:Open Source in government

[Anonymous Coward]

"when does handing the enemy a blueprint of the fortress make guarding the castle easier?"

It never made it much easier. Further, there's a lot more knowledgable coders out there than there were commanders with any military knowledge back then. Mostly, it was peasants fighting - the medieval equivalent of today's weekend warriors. Except with less beer.

"With Open Source, I'm concerned that not only are hackers being issued a blueprint for an attack, but that they can also build flaws into the system before it is even implemented!"

It's not that hard to get a job at a proprietary company. I'm surprised no one's tried this vector of attack against Microsoft. Then again, maybe all those bugs they seem to have..

"Witness the problems caused when the latest flaw is discovered in BIND or ftpd, or when a trojan is actually placed in the software people use to protect their system (tcpdump)!"

Prove that all the bugs in Microsoft's code are accidental. I dare you.

"Maybe the Japanese are just trying to wrangle a better price out of Microsoft, but I think it's possible they don't want to be left unguarded a couple of months whence after picking the cheaper solution."

What are you referring to here, the fact that they've got MS reps praising the greater glory of Windows? It's simply likely that the Japanese aren't as stupid as most Slashdotters seem to be. They want both sides of the story. Obviously, Side A thinks it's better than Side B, and vice versa. That's why you listen to both sides - and then form your own opinion.

"Open Source is a bargain that offers far more than what you pay for; however, its track record with security is spotty, and who do you sue when things go wrong?"

Spotty, compared to what? If you wish to compare the whole of Open Source, compare it to *all* proprietary software, not just Microsoft. Otherwise, the kernel, the GNU dev tools and Open Office don't seem that bad when stacked up against Windows, Visual Studio and MS Office.

As for suing? No one who sues Microsoft comes back in business.

Re:Open Source in government

[The Monster]

when does handing the enemy a blueprint of the fortress make guarding the castle easier?

When you know that the enemy can get a copy of the blueprints anyway. If your security depends on the enemy not knowing where the walls of the fortress are, he has a powerful incentive to gain that knowledge, and once he does the security is gone. So let him know where the walls and doors are, by opening the blueprints up for public comment before you break ground to make sure the design is sound, But make sure that you change all the combinations on the locks from what the contractor set them to, so even if the enemy bribes him, he can't compromise your security.

Re:Open Source in government

[Skiboo]

Also, remember when MS shipped a CD with a virus-infected product?

This is probably what you're looking for:
Visual Studio .Net: Now with more Viruses

Microsoft shipped VS.NET, and saved Koreans the trouble of getting infected by Nimda themselves. How thoughtful of them...

Re:Open Source in government

[Filik]

Sue? You think anyone can sue Microsoft, with that 100-page disclaimer you have to agree to before installing any of their products?

Anyway, it is easy to get support deals for the most popular Open Source products nowadays.

What are they thinking?

[donglekey]

Talk about changing
Lots of press surrounding us
Big discount from MS

Well who cares?

[greenskyx]

Either way this means less money for Microsoft. I would ask that ALL countries in the world please take action now and consider Linux. If you don't use Linux you could atleast get some freebies from MS! Good luck!

In other news....

[r_j_prahad]

[...] the public management ministry is setting up a panel of scholars and computer experts, including Microsoft officials..."

In other news, the farmer has invited a group of forest critters, including some foxes, to guard his hen-house.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Bargaining chips ??

[josh crawley]

Is Linux being used by goverments and large clients as a "bargaining chip" to gain consessions
from M$?

BRAVO

[Yo Grark]

Finally, someone doing it right.

For years companies have been pitting competitor against competitor until in the end, the customer gets the right bang for the right buck.

Too many times I see Slashdot going on about how evil Microsoft and how great open source is, now thanks to Japan, we have a Showcase for PROOF POSITIVE what the world at large wants to know.

Microsoft or Open Source?

You don't think this is a testbed for something better?

Committee Meeting, Day 1 9:00am

MS: OpenSource Bad
OS: Microsoft Bad
Japan: Why?

MS&OS: Shit good question.

Justification is the key, and when spending money the way the Government does, getting 3, 4, 10 different companies via'ing for the business all leads to better justification.

OS or MS: We Won the Bid/Implementation because Japan wanted this this and this, we proved we had it, they didn't.

You get the picture /rant off.

Yo Grark
-Canadian Bred with American Buttering

Re:BRAVO

[Xtifr]

> MS: OpenSource Bad
> OS: Microsoft Bad
> Japan: Why?

> MS&OS: Shit good question.

Actually, I think the OS response would be: see here (the open letter from the Peruvian Congressman). And MS will probably have some dubious claims about how untrained monkeys can't necessarily administer linux/bsd boxes.

But I agree that it's a good thing that Japan is allowing all interested parties into the debate.

Re:BRAVO

[nicodaemos]

Yo Grark ranted ...
Committee Meeting, Day 1 9:00am

MS: OpenSource Bad
OS: Microsoft Bad
Japan: Why?

MS&OS: Shit good question.

Committee Meeting, Day 1 6:00pm

OS: If you look to page 3, you'll now see the pie chart showing server breakin percentages. It shows you that running an OS server will mean you have only 10% of the risk of being broken into versus running a MS server product.
MS: You know, it's getting kinda late. It's a tough question which one is better, why don't we discuss it further over dinner and drinks ... we'll pay, of course.

Committee Meeting, Day 2 9:00am

OS: On page 5 we show a breakdown of virus propagation by operating system. Note how almost all viruses known to man are propagated by MS products.
MS: Excuse me, after that hard night of booze and broads, I thought everyone might be hungry so I arranged to have some breakfast catered to our session. Why don't we pick up again after we eat?

Committee Meeting, Day 3 9:00am

OS: Now on page 9 we can compare the cost savings of using free and open source products over proprietary ones.
MS: Can I interrupt just a second, I've got an announcement to make. It's come to our attention that Japan is routinely devastated by attacks from Godzilla. Because he's a concerned philanthropist, Bill Gates has decided to donate $100million dollars to Japan towards rebuilding efforts in the aftermath of these tragedies.

Committee Meeting, Day 4 9:00am

OS: On pages 18-26, you'll find a list of technical features that were created by open source products. On pages 27-39 you'll see how Microsoft included those features into their own products and then claimed how innovative their products are.
MS: Japan, I see that times are kind of tough right now so I've gone out on a limb and asked Bill if we can get you a deal on our software. We're going to be able to sell you Windows at $100 a license, that's below our cost to make it, but you can have it if you sign a 5 year maintenance agreement. I'd hate for you to miss out on this offer, because otherwise you'll have to pay the higher prices later. By the way, what's the address of your political committee? I want to make sure to contribute to your reelection campaign.

..... Post commission decision ....

MS: We're happy to report that the Japanese government found our products to be more innovative, secure and cheaper than open source software. This head to head competition was brutal, but we think the better software won out in the end.

Yeah, I'm happy someone's doing it right too.

Re:Its like having a cigarette company decide if t

[Winterblink]

As opposed to the open source advocates being biased? On one hand I agree with you, but on the other I think to myself that if open source feels threatened by or can't compete with Microsoft when playing on a level field with equal opportunities for representation, then I think there's more to worry about here than just Microsoft being present.

Re:HAHAHA YOU FUNNY YEAH FLIED LICE

[denisdekat]

You are not so funny, and rather ignorant and perhaps even racist.

this isn't a Haiku

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Please repost

Re:this isn't a Haiku

[Kragg]

Japan checks open source
Japan calls microsoft in
Microsoft gets raped.

Re:this isn't a Haiku

[Kragg]

damn. good point.

It /must/ include MS employees to be objective.

[pigeon768]

If there were no proponents of closed source technology, (ie, a bunch of linux guru's sitting there saying "Hey, yeah, open source is better") it wouldn't be an objective view, now would it? The panel doesn't exist to automatically approve OSS, it's there to discuss the pro's and con's of OSS. Microsoft is there, for better or for worse, to make sure the con's get discussed.

I'm a major fan of open-source and all that, (using Gentoo as I type this) but there are still bad parts of OSS, like a lack of a really good Office clone, which is very important for businesses. It would be remiss for any organisation to choose OSS over MS based without looking at the (few) things they'll lose by chosing OSS.

Re:It /must/ include MS employees to be objective.

[mrjive]

True, there has to be someone to play devil's advocate to make any kind of research like this worthwhile. However, I'm sure there are plenty of other proponents for closed source that would be a much better choices than MS.

We've all seen how the hive mind thinks (ie FUD), which is why I made the sarcastic remark in the first place. I'd expect that whoever is sent to this conference as a "diplomat" will only be there to push the MS agenda, rather than objectively participate in a meaningful discussion.

Re:It /must/ include MS employees to be objective.

[vandy1]

I'm not sure about the "no good Office clone" bit; I use openoffice.org, and it works fine.

My A$0.02

Michael

Simple comparison

[mao che minh]

The Japanese are very reasonable and straight forward thinkers.

Microsoft: expensive, slow development for fixes, laughed-at-by-main-stream-media security, closed source - which further stifles development, foreign, you support a monopoly

Linux: cheap or free, rapid and constant development and bug fixes, industry reknowned security, open source, it is "yours" once you embrace it, you support a grass roots movement of heart felt computer users and developers

It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out.

Re:Simple comparison

[Valafar]

This isn't directed at anyone specifically... just a thought that crossed my mind.

I'm curious why Open Source automagically means "Linux"? Why aren't they looking at FreeBSD? If security and "open" code is their main objective, it's most definately a better value proposition, as it is truly "free". It runs KDE and OpenOffice just as well as Gnu/Linux does, and is more reliable as a server.

Re:Simple comparison

[glenstar]

Why aren't they looking at FreeBSD?

I would be they are... lots and lots and lots of BSD developers in Japan.

Re:Simple comparison

[Stonent1]

Microsoft: expensive, slow development for fixes, laughed-at-by-main-stream-media security, closed source - which further stifles development, foreign, you support a monopoly Linux: cheap or free, rapid and constant development and bug fixes, industry reknowned security, open source, it is "yours" once you embrace it, you support a grass roots movement of heart felt computer users and developers

As you mentioned supporting a foreign owned monopoly. Linux is a multi-national "product".. Therefore they support "the world".

Re:Simple comparison

[MrScience]

>Gods are fragile things;
>they may be killed by a whiff of science
>or a dose of common sense. -- Chapman Cohen

With a sig like that' I'd be cautious putting Linux up in such a high position. :)

Re:Simple comparison

[HiThere]

Open Source automagically means Linux, because most of the open source distributions that I know are Linux. Period.

Any of the BSD Unicies would also qualify. So would Hurd. And I'm sure that there are others. But Linux distributions are the ones that I know. And they're the ones that I can "sort of" depend on to stay Free Software, rather than being co-opted.

That "sort of" is a nod to Lindows and Xandros and United Linux, who seem to be trying to bury the "Free Software" aspect. Also to various patent lawyers and clerks, who seem willing to let large corporations patent adding 2 and 2 to get 3.9999987, or numbers close to it.

Sounds fair to me...

[symbolic]

panel of scholars and computer experts, including Microsoft officials in order to study the use of Open Source software in the government.

On one side you have the scholars and computer experts, and on the other, you have Microsoft.

Why they have MS on the board

[qwijibrumm]

It seems that a lot of people are wondering why MS is on this evaluation board. I am by no means a fan of Microsoft, but has the very name come to immediately spawn that much distrust in anyone who even hears them out?

The reason MS is on the board is simple. As it says in the article, Japan doesn't want to base their (potential) migration on hearsay. Simply put, they want to hear both sides of the story. I know a lot of us have heard the MS side of the story and dismissed it as garbage, but not everyone has.

Why do so many of us critisize somebody for trying to objectively attack a subject like this?

Re:Why they have MS on the board

[Bagheera]

Interesting reasoning, and certainly valid. I just wonder what "professional" representation the Open Source community will have on this panel.

I don't see anything wrong with Microsoft telling their side of the story. But the Open Source community doesn't really have that "single front PR department" that MS has. How will the panel hear both sides, if only one side is speaking?

Re:Why they have MS on the board

[qwijibrumm]

It really doesn't matter who they get for an OSS rep. The fact of the matter is any reasonably OSS experienced IT professional can make a strong argument for OSS. It takes a marketing pro to make a good argument for MS.

And there goes that lack of bias I was trying to have on this subject.

Re:Why they have MS on the board

[HiThere]

...has the very name come to immediately spawn that much distrust in anyone who even hears them out?

Yes. Have you read any of their recent licenses? Have you noticed their "benevolent" contributions to governments, and people who work in them? I can think of no reason to not immediately distrust them, until AFTER they have proven that, in this instance, they were acting honorably. I've notice that perhaps twice in the past three decades. And I haven't been certain about those. (It's hard to be certain just who they are about to ask for what favor.)

Re:Why they have MS on the board

[bruthasj]

I can imagine that they send Joe Programmer. He shows up late in ragged jeans and tennis shoes. He hasn't taken a shower in one week.

MS Rep: "The TCO of running OSS systems is ..."
[Joe Bursts in]
Joe: "FP!!! Linux Rulz!"
Chair: "Uhh... It's nice to have our OSS representative here, MS Rep please ..."
Joe: "Look, not sure who ask the Devil to be here, but Linux Rox, ok?!"
Chair: "We'll get to your opinion after we hear about the discounts -- I mean -- opinions MS Rep has to offer."
Joe: "Dude, chill out, wagalimasta, k, brutha?"
MS Rep: "As I was saying, running OSS causes you to pay more money to your own people in your own country. You should pay less and only 90% of the gross will go back to Redmond."
Joe: "WTF?"
MS Rep: "Excuse Me?"
Joe: "I just have one question: Can you make a Beowulf out of these so-called products?"
MS Rep: "Uhh..."
Joe: "Look Mr. Chair, they're dead in the water. Isn't the evidence conclusive!?"
[Now the odor eminating from Joe Programmer begins to infiltrate the premises.]
Chair: "Mr Programmer, we're going to have to ask you to leave."
Joe: "Why?! That tramples on my rights! I have the right to be like this okay! This is how I am -- my Genes preprogrammed me, alright! It's all about Globalization and ANIME, okay!!!!!!!!!!!!"
[The members in the meeting room look at each other dazzled as Mr. Joe leaves.]

Re:Why they have MS on the board

[krinsh]

You can't tell me than any reasonably experienced IT professional will pitch solutions to clients; unless he is a "pre-sales engineer" or similar position whose job consists 30% installation, 20% short-term (make sure things were implemented correctly) support, and 50% marketing/sales. Most of that sort has a small staff of support techies at the home office that they can call when they can't figure out the diagram for the cabinet they're plugging in to their client's existing network.

Ninety out of 100 techs I know do not want to talk to the customer; and are glad for someone else to do the introductions and teach the software. Except in a few cases, how many instructors do you know also code or work in network operations at the same time? It's my opinion...!!! I know a lot of folks that work all day and teach a college or certification class at night.

Seems a bit silly to invite microsoft...

[D-Cypell]

Surely everyone knows their opinion of OS by now?

Do the Japanesse not get slashdot??

Re:Seems a bit silly to invite microsoft...

[great om]

www.slashdot.jp

The Asahi Shimbun Japanese version of the article

[terkozer]

http://www.asahi.com/business/update/1116/005.html For those of you than can read Japanese.

Who is going to be the MS representative?

[Morgahastu]

This same person?

Re:YEAH YEAH ME NO LACIST, YOU WANNA FLIED LICE?

[denisdekat]

mmm, what other racial stereo types do you do? Do you do Canadians? Maybe Mexicans? I hear the french are always popular to make fun off ...

Steve 'n' Bill Pack Yer Bags.....

[josh crawley]

I wonder what Steve and Bill are going to do with all of those frequent flyer miles? They sure have been racking them up lately haven't they?

I heard that Walmart will give you a really neat Microtel PC for a quarter million miles.

idiots the lot of you!

[dnoyeb]

Don't you know that as long as m$ has world domination the US has free spy OSes on other governments desktops? Their is no way the US can slip spy code into OSS because anybody would see it.

You need to look at the bigger picture. withough m$ the US could loose its biggest spy edge.

Re:idiots the lot of you!

[CableModemSniper]

The astroturers must have mod points today.

Re:idiots the lot of you!

[spruce]

What a load of FUD. Do you know how much of a backlash there would be if MS put a trojan in their products, and it was discovered by anyone, possibly by noticing their computers randomly connect to the US? That would be a absolutely stupid business decision. Oh, and even if you can look at the source, trojans can still make it in there without people noticing immediately. Better check every bit of source code every time there's an update to any package.

Re:idiots the lot of you!

[shepd]

>What a load of FUD.

Pull the wool off in the new few paragraphs. This is one of the many reasons to detest MS.

>Do you know how much of a backlash there would be if MS put a trojan in their products, and it was discovered by anyone, possibly by noticing their computers randomly connect to the US?

Not much.

>That would be a absolutely stupid business decision.

Not really.

TTYL + HTH!

16 Months time

[Alain Williams]

Did you notice the finish date for the study? March 2004, yes 2004 not 2003! It is not as if it is a big study - only $410,000.

Governments when faced with something that they don't like often make it go away by commissioning a study, by the time that it comes out the fuss has died down and everyone has forgotten about it. I hope that that is not what is happening here. If that is the case, this is one 'fuss' where events will overtake the report.

Re:HAHAHA YOU FUNNY YEAH FLIED LICE

[Inf0phreak]

Ming Li (alias Cartman) was Vietnamese... oh well... they are all the same, right? (Ask any anime-otaku (like me!) and s?he will say: "NO WAY!") ^_^

Agh

[m1a1]

Somebody set us up the penguin.

Re:HAHAHA YOU FUNNY YEAH FLIED LICE

[denisdekat]

This, "Me love you long time!", I believe is from the full metal jacket movie. It was a quote from a Vietnamese prostitute. So maybe making fun of the Japanese would be better in other ways. I have a sense of humor too, but me love you long time is so tired now. Don't you think? Also, my dry sense of humor does not carry well in plain text where intonation plays key :(

Are they going to

[Morgahastu]

have Ellen Feiss on the panel?

Re:Are they going to

[Psx29]

have Ellen Feiss [apple.com] on the panel?

Nah it will more likely be someone from apple's Japanese switch campaign

Biased Open Source officials

[CodePyro]

I think you are completely right, I was re-evaluating what i said and i think The Open Source community shouldn't feel threatened by Microsoft's Presence. Ultimately, the goal is to provide a superegos way of developing a product, and we shouldn't be scared if we know for a fact that we're superior. So LET Microsoft officials be a part of the panel, Infect I can't recall where but I read articles stating that Microsoft would release source to certain parts of it OS to certain government funded organizations. By the way my original Subject line got truncated it read "Its like having a cigarette company decide if tobacco is healthy"

NEWSFLASH!

[dpdawson]

Asia Becomes New Mecca for Linux!

A Haiku...

[slipgun]

Japanese call it
Linux not GNU/Linux
RMS pissed off

Re:bad Japanese impersonation

[bnavarro]

Actually, I saw this as a take on the colloquialism "methinks"

Italic

[bstadil]

Me wonders if your use of slanted Italic has some deeper ulterior motive.

Re:My experiences in Japan

[bstadil]

Read the Troll manual again Your are supposed to make it much shorter.

United States == Open-source?

[lvdrproject]

From the article:
Japan lags behind Germany, the United States, China and other nations looking into or using open-source software such as Linux, which can be used and modified for free.

I've heard about how Germany and China have switched/are switching to alternative operating systems, but since when was the United States using open-source software? The last i checked, even the Navy's fricking BATTLESHIPS ran on Windows 2000.

Am i behind the times, or are these guys on crack?

:Lav

Mozilla!

[mh101]

Of course Japan like OSS software. With names like "Mozilla" who can blame them?

Shhhhh...

[Idou]

shhh!

I get my karma by posting recursive paradoxing posts about repostings.

US ahead??? that's a laugh

[Black Copter Control]

From the article:Japan lags behind Germany, the United States, China and other nations looking into or using open-source software such as Linux, which can be used and modified for free.

Last time I looked at the stats for various domains .mil (US MIL) was the only one that I saw where MS had an overwhelming dominance for web servers. (big surprise that they've had hundreds of boxes broken into?). .Gov was almost 50/50 and .us was only slightly better.

If they were talking about the US government being behind Japan, I think that they never bothered to check the statistics.

he was....

[nebenfun]

until a giant evil koopa took his place(after stealing the plumber's girlfriend).

nbfn

This is ridiculous

[CableModemSniper]

I can't believe how many posts I've seen that go along the lines of:

Micro$oft on the PANEL? ROFLMAO. It's not Objective! They'll never pick OSS! Who puts Micro$oft on a panel about OSS?!?!

Meanwhile, all the posts poiting out how dumb this is havent risen above a 3.

Newsflash zealots, to be "objective" you have to have viewpoints from ALL the sides, not just the one you want to win. The Japanese are doing the perfectly correct, and intelligent thing by including Microsoft on the panel.

Re:This is ridiculous

[praedor]

No. To be OBJECTIVE does NOT mean what you think it means. You cannot have individuals with a known bias on the panel and call it an objective or reasonable "study". It is already known a priori what "conclusion" the M$ rep will have. It would be just as bogus to have Stallman on the panel.

If you want the panel to come to a reasonable conclusion, then its members must be objective, period. An M$ rep is not objective. This panel is not looking for a real answer, it is looking for India-style "gifts" (that cost big in the not-so-long-run) from M$.

If they truly wanted an objective study, they would have brought in analysts who don't actually give a damn one way or another, but will actually run an objective study without having an inkling as to the way it is "supposed" to come out (in favor of M$ in this case because that is the only reason to include such a person).

You CANNOT have an objective look at the scientific evidence supporting the fact of evolution by including creationists. You cannot have an objective study on whether it is cost effective and good policy in general to use OSS with M$ reps on the "objective" panel.

Re:This is ridiculous

[CableModemSniper]

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=objective

"... b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum."

Find me two perfectly unbiased analysts to make this decision. You can't, short of people who are completely unbiased because they don't know anything about the topic.

The definition talks about "reducing subjective factors to a minimum" By including Microsoft as well as OSS adovcates they are trying to balance the panel.

I agree with you about Stallman, but if the panel had been made up of just Stallman and the FSF the slashbots probably would be appaulding Japan over their selection of a well-rounded panel.

Since you can't find a truly objective person you have to balance everyone's views. As an old cliche puts it, there are three sides to every story, your side, his side and the truth. Japan wants to find out the truth, not Microsoft's story, and not OSS's story. By putting members of both extremes on the panel they are doing the best possible in the real world to get an objective analysis.

Hope they see past the FUD

[Slur]

My only hope is that the committee will be savvy enough to know when M$ (or is it M¥?) is being disingenuous.

Of course here in the US we can easily discern whether this is the case: Just check to see if their lips are moving.

Re:Hope they see past the FUD

[TheKey]

It's MS, actually.

Get it straight, it's M�

[Slur]

n/t

Hey -

[Black Parrot]

> Shhh! I get all my karma by reposting all the (Score:5) comments on repeat stories.

Hey, that's my joke!

You know...

[yamcha666]

It would be kinda pathetic to see MS stoop as low as to discounting their product just to sell it. Hasn't it always been thought that one must use the best tool for the job?

If MS spent more time trying to make their operating system and other products the best "tool" in the world, then OSS would have no chance.

Than again, it just looks like the nations are playing Microsoft just to save a few bucks.

Re:You know...

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be kinda pathetic to see MS stoop as low as to discounting their product just to sell it. Hasn't it always been thought that one must use the best tool for the job?

What is the best tool for the job depends on the cost. Generally when you are trying to get a job done what you are looking to do is spend as little as possible. Or in other words, you try to consider the total costs involved and choose the best trade-off that fits all of the requirements.

Re:bad Japanese impersonation

[Luke-Jr]

/me I'm quite sure originated with IRC. Personally, I prefer the : (originating from MUDs) over /me.

If they don't Like Linux

[Herkum01]

We'll get Linus to Send the Beowulf Pengiun to wipe out Tokyo.

Re:If they don't Like Linux

[qzulla]

And this, my friends, concludes the discussion as the best post in the
thread.

Thank you.

qz has left the building.

qz

So Linus, Gates, and Koizumi walk into a bar and..

[visionsofmcskill]

LOL...

i like how microsoft has representatives ... what are they gonna say... yea go ahead and buy, er use that free software instead of ours? ...

That'll be the day.

FreeBSD *is* Linux

[Xtifr]

Geeze, don't you know anything?! :)

Microsoft has to be worried

[FuzzzyLogik]

Seriously, they have to notice that TONS of foreign countries are even thinking of switching to an open source solution. People ARE realizing it might be cheaper to go the OSS solution, no, it won't hurt them any time soon, but it's certainly got to be pissing them off a little at a time. Even if it never hurts them, it certainly makes me happy knowing there are intelligent people out there in places where it matters.

TCO

[Foddrick]

I was thinking that for non-US governments TCO is not as much as an argument as MS would have them believe. If using linux or any other open source solution requires staff to be paid more, then those staff will come from the same country. Therefore this will keep that money in the local economy rather than pouring it into MS coffers. I you were a foreign government would you rather give money to a) your citizens or b) foreign megacorp ?

Re:TCO

[njdj]

If you were a foreign government would you rather give money to a) your citizens or b) foreign megacorp ?

You implicitly assume that politicians will do what is best for the people they represent. I wish you were right.

In fact, politicians will push public money towards people who "contribute money" to their re-election funds. Doing the right thing for the voters does win a few votes ... but an expensive ad campaign seems to win far more votes. It happens in the US too (DMCA etc).

In this case the "foreign megacorp" (M$) will probably regard a few $million, or even tens of millions, to key Japanese politicians a good investment, since it will make $billions out of a continued monopoly in Japan. This is what really drives political decisions. OS hasn't a chance.

Re:TCO

[horza]

If using linux or any other open source solution requires staff to be paid more, then those staff will come from the same country. Therefore this will keep that money in the local economy rather than pouring it into MS coffers. I you were a foreign government would you rather give money to a) your citizens or b) foreign megacorp ?

I think the usual idea is for a government to cut its IT costs so that it can spend the money on other things such as health and education. If the extra cost outweighs the license fees, plus the cost of downtime through inadequate security and viruses, then a government is unlikely to switch (imho)

Phillip.

grammar nazi reply

[bigdavex]

However, I'm concerned with issues regarding security. We have all heard the old saw regarding closed source vs. open source: 'Security through obscurity doesn't do the job', however this begs the following question: when does handing the enemy a blueprint of the fortress make guarding the castle easier?

"Begging the question" is a logical falacy meaning the argument assumes the conclusion. I think you mean raise the question.

Irregardless is not a word.

overly simplistic

[ryochiji]

>"don't marry non-Japanese."

I have a friend who lived outside of Japan for most of her life, received an American education (in Germany) from 5th grade through high school and went on to collge in the US. While in the US, she dated a few non-Japanese guys, but she could never tell her parents about it because they insisted that she date and marry a Japanese guy.

Does she see it as racism? Sort of. But it's part of how cultures with long histories (that excludes the US) work. Whether it's Japanese, Arabic, Korean, or whatever. Preservation is one of the purposes of all cultures, and you can't deny an aspect of it by simply saying "it's racist."

American society inherently prefers mixing. But then, I also know a lot of Japanese-American friends who don't speak Japanese. They've become successful Americans, but didn't they lose something? They are now trying to learn Japanese as adults, but had American culture allowed them to respect their heritage, they might have been more inclined to learn Japanese when they were children (which would have been much easier).

Re:overly simplistic

[maxpublic]

"Preservation is one of the purposes of all cultures, and you can't deny an aspect of it simply by saying 'it's racist'."

Smoking a bit too much crack, are we? Of course it's fucking racist! That's pretty much the goddamn definition of racism right there. Arguing that it's just a way to 'preserve the culture' or some such crap doesn't in any way, shape or form justify the behavior. The behavior itself is despicable regardless.

Nothing on God's green Earth can excuse racism or the notion of racial superiority. Dressing it up as a 'cultural difference' is little more than apologia. Although I'm sure more than one white supremacist group would love to have you as a member (assuming you're racially pure, of course).

Max

Re:overly simplistic

[x3ro]

Hear hear. :) I would go further than you and say that American society does not really promote mixing. 'Miscegenation' between black and white Americans is frowned on in many parts of America - and that's between members of the same people.

Amusing note on Japanese sexism

[Galvatron]

Once, a couple years back, I was browsing the Japanese census page, because I'd heard that the birth rate was only about 1 child per couple. That seemed fairly shocking, so I wanted to know if it was true (IIRC, it was not, the birth rate was below 2, but not by a whole lot). Anyway, on several different pages, discussing changes in demographics, a common explanation for the changes was "increasing women's rights." Everytime that phrase was used, it was a link. So, even though it wasn't directly related to what I was looking for, I was curious what they had to say about rights gained by women in Japan, so I clicked the link. The page told me all I needed to know:

404 Not Found

(BTW, I like Japan as well. Don't think I'm trying to condemn an entire nation because they have some social problems. All nations have problems to deal with, and Japan is no exception. Clearly, there'd be no reason to bother discussing these issues if it were not already a great nation in many other respects)

Sounds like a cyberpunk paradise!

[Cybrex]

Wow! I've always wanted to visit Japan, but after reading your comments I can't wait! That sounds GREAT! If you'd included something about getting shot at I'd be booking travel plans right now, but given their draconian gun control laws I guess that'd be pushing the boundaries of believability. ;)

Seriously, though, what you describe sounds remarkably like my college dorm days (my kinky sex stories are different, though)- poverty, stench, dispair, vomit, urine, intoxication, degredation, loss of cultural identity. Did you live in Rawlings Hall too?

God I miss those days. :)

-Cybrex

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Japan really does see /.!

[Adam9]

Japan has been looking at Slashdot in Japanese for awhile, though judging from the number of comments, not many people have.

I have to wonder...

[Daengbo]

OK...I swear that I am not BSing this...
My long time student, the Japanese technology advisor to the Thai government, just went back to Japan, where he holds a fairly high position in the ministry there. My interaction with him for many months (on his request) was to bring up timely and interesting technical stories for discussion to help him improve his (already wonderful) English. We did much talking about OSS vs. proprietary software, DRM, etc... He was enormously interested in the uses of OSS in the government. Anyone on the inside know of a Nobuaki involved in this?

Inconsistency..

[David McBride]

...the public management ministry is setting up a panel of scholars and computer experts, including Microsoft officials

Is someone trying to imply that Microsoft officials qualify as scholars or computer experts?

*ducks*

Behind the closed doors of the meeting

[Anonymous Coward]

public management ministry(PMM):
"We think open source."
Microsoft officials(M$):
"We offer you x% discount"
PMM:
"We still think open source"
M$:
"Bill will travel to Japan, and is willing to have his photo taken with a 2m condom"
PMM:
"We are still open source"
M$:
"We will deliver to you the body of Elvis"
PMM:
"Microsoft, you make offer we Japanesse can not refuse"

Win $$$

[wilfie]

Of course! We'll sue Billy Boy. That'll be a doddle.

funny thing...

[sirshannon]

I can usually tell what part of Asia a girl is from when I see them. They are usually impressed by this.
Call me racist if you will, but I have an unhealthy lust for non-anglo women, so maybe I'm just paying more attention than some people.

They're buying?

[PegQuin]

So, let me get this straight. There are people in Asain countries who are actually paying for software? I thought you could get Windows 2000 Server with 150 client licenses for something like 1,223.59 JPY.

Re:Japan should know better by now...

[Gothmolly]

Japan is NOT the most innovative nation, or anywhere close to it. Ask around. Japan is good at adapting, miniaturizing, or cheaply producing (read: efficient manufacturing processes/lots of hard work) items invented in more open, meritocratic societies.

There are already studies of Japanese Linux use.

[dwheeler]

There is a Japanese study, simply called the Linux white paper 2003, that studies current use of Linux in Japan. If you don't read Japanese, a summary of the material is available in Why OSS/FS? Look at the Numbers! in the market share section. Look for the point that starts with "A Japanese survey found widespread use and support for GNU/Linux; overall use of GNU/Linux jumped from 35.5% in 2001 to 64.3% in 2002 of Japanese corporations, and GNU/Linux was the most popular platform for small projects." Note that this is the percentage of corporations using it at all, not the number of total machines, but it certainly suggests interest by the Japanese corporate world. Various other statistics are quoted as well.

Cat among the canaries?

[crovira]

M$ is part of this...

I can save them the 50M Yen, the time and tell you the recommendation they'll give. "Throw money at M$"

Japanese are definitely not incoruptible. Just ask the Yakuza.

There'll be kick-back deals happening in the initial process of deciding on where to hold the closed-door meetings and who should cater the meals and "entertainment."

MS can be an INTERVIEWEE, so can Red Hat, SuSE...

[crovira]

They should NOT have a place on the board.

The very fact that there is more than one person to speak for OSS should be revealing to the Japanese.

Re:The Asahi Shimbun Japanese version of the artic

[isorox]

read japanese? Hell I've had problems displaying it before!

I find it amazing how people from a Latin, or even Greek upbringing can understand, or even pronounce "". How do you do it?

Not really "Who do you sue?"

[nicestepauthor]

It should be pretty obvious that nobody has succeeded in sueing Microsoft. When people say things like "Who do you sue?" what they are really saying is that they don't want to take responsibility for for what might be a bad decision, that they aren't smart enough to tell a good decision from a bad one, and they need a decision that they won't get fired for, even if it is less than optimum.

I think this is why managers spend the money on Gartner Group reports. They're wrong half the time, but you won't get fired for following their recommendations.

What's the deal here?

[PegQuin]

OSS Animie?
http://images.slashdot.org/banner/pmks030 6en.gif?1 037892267456

Sounds like a court of law to me

[Savant]

You could describe the court system almost exactly like that, you know; a panel containing individuals with a known bias. There's a prosecuting lawyer, and a defending lawyer, and a judge and jury. The funny thing is that it works much better than not having prosecuting or defending lawyers at all; the jury knows where the lawyers' bias lies, and relies on the lawyers to sort the wealth of information about the case into arguments for and against convicting the accused.

Given that there will be open source advocates and Microsoft advocates on the panel, there's the same balance as in a court of law. And if we were looking at the scientific evidence supporting the theory of evolution, damn right I'd want creationists on the panel as well as hard-core evolution supporters like yourself. I might or might not find their arguments unconvincing, but I'd be positive that those making them had put in a lot of effort to find the best arguments they could opposing the theory. And personally, I don't find them any more ridiculous than those who treat evolution as an unchallengeable religion in itself. When people stop looking at things scientifically and resort to dogma, whether it be evolution or creation, championing Microsoft or Linux, they pretty well forfeit any chance of my taking them seriously; I like to hope I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Savant

Hope this helps

[thefluxster]

Actually, they did have the 5:7:5 phonetic syllable-per-line structure originally. At least, Haiku's did. I believe you may be referring to "Renga" or perhaps "Tanka" which came before the Haiku and which didn't have the 5:7:5 structure that came to be known as "Haiku".

There are also several instances of Haiku which don't have the 5:7:5 structure in Japanese. Many people believe this is simply an over-sight or mistake, while in reality the language allows for such cases through the use of contractions/extensions of syllables using phonetic vowel sounds (Basho himself used this on occasion). i.e. to+u = t+long-O sound. However, when possible, the rule is to stick to the 5:7:5 pattern, especially when doing them in English since it is easy enough to come up with contractions for words (eg. 'night for tonight and "gonna" for "going to").

If anyone has any additional input, please feel free.

Re:bad Japanese impersonation

[lack1uster]

I'm going to have to agree with you, anon. Rasict jokes can be funny. I make jokes about every race, including my own couple. As long as you're not making the jokes to purposely hurt or offend someone, it can be benefical.

who's on the panel?

[Hexfet]

setting up a panel of scholars and computer experts, including Microsoft officials in order

Shouldn't that be "scholars and computer experts and Microsoft officials", since the third group is mutually exclusive with the first two?

Re:The Asahi Shimbun Japanese version of the artic

[terkozer]

I'm using both Konqueror 3.0.3 & Mozilla 1.1. Either one displays Japanese really well.
Both have come a long way in good international language support!.

Re:The Asahi Shimbun Japanese version of the artic

[isorox]

same here, but for the last 7 years before the latest moz I could never display anything. Doesnt help reading or pronoucing it though

Last Post!

[alpg]

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been
originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet
has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a
beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are
being, evolved.
-- Darwin

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