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Linus Is A Hero
oever writes "The dutch broadcaster KRO has chosen 365 modern saints or heros. One of them is Linus Torvalds, chosen for his work in on Linux and 'Open Source'. Too bad RMS or Saint Ignuciuis he wasn't chosen, even though he was recommended."
always knew it
I think that guy is on crack... you look at the others he choose? James Taylor?? Tina Turner?? whats the world coming too...
RMS is a fucking uncompromising, intolerant fruitcake who -- unlike Linus -- doesn't understand the necessity of always having a right tool for the job (whether it is proprietary or free is irrelevant).
I have already said I worship in the Church of Linux.
This is going to make those "it's not a religious" arguments a lot harder!
Get your own free personal location tracker
Linus could have built Linux on that other free compiler and UNIX toolchain. Er... I guess there was no other one.
It's nice to see people like Linus get credited for their work for the betterment of society. It's a shame I don't know Dutch. :-)
... Flash is the most horribly evil thing ever to come out of the computer industry. It chokes the flow of free information and turns pages (of information) into giant full-screen animated talking commercials.
:)
That rant's over for now, so I'll just have to ask for somebody to get a text list or something.
Too bad RMS or Saint Ignuciuis he wasn't chosen, even though he was recommended.
Yeah, because everyone loves a fanatic.
If so, then does does that make this a hit list too?
They left out Frank Zappa!
It's one thing being Lucy's brother, but Schroeder had to deal with her always coming on to him. Sheesh, how many times does a guy have to say he's not interested before the girl takes the hint?
My other sig is extremely clever...
I can't even read the list.
All I get is a huge grey block in the middle of a black screen.
Get your own free personal location tracker
Oh my lord... what were they think...err, drinking?
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
The number of my Linux boxes is increasing. Thanks Linus and everybody else who has participated!
Perhaps when (if) you grow up and move out of your parents' basement you will come to the realization that Microsoft development tools are actually excellent in comparison to the decades old emacs/gcc-in-a-terminal-window shit.
"One of them is Linus Torvalds, chosen for his work in on Linux and 'Open Source'. Too bad RMS or Saint Ignuciuis he wasn't chosen, even though he was recommended."
The reason for the overlooking of the real developers of Linux such as RMS is the same reason as Tim Berners-Lee is credited with "inventing" the internet, when obvious evidence suggests otherwise. The American public is, at the base, ignorant of computers.
They think it is possible for only one person to invent the Internet, when geeks like us know the underlying protocols demand more than one inventor.
It is the same way with Linus and RMS, with RMS creating most of the base for Linux, but since Linus was the original bootloader writer, people assume he "invented" Linux, while overlooking the more important luminaries.
Guido van Rossum, creator of Python, is my hero.
And he's Dutch to boot!
How'd KRO overlook a homegrown hero like that? ;)
Joe
http://www.joegrossberg.com
At the very least, he contributed largely to the QA-ing of Slashcode ;)
is ENIAC on there? I cant read dutch and the site is already /. ed
If they include David Bowie on the same list?
Maybe they'll make the next Red Hat codename "Ziggy" in honor of the list!
Go Linus!
:)
I always knew he rocked, that's why I named my cockatiel after him!
I also named my fish after Alan Cox... but the fish died, so no wonder he didn't make the list
I can hear RMS now... "you should refer to Linus as a GNU/Hero."
"And like that
I want the pattern to his superhero outfit released so I can see how I stack up.
Trolling is a art,
I still think RMS should have pushed to get a cameo role in one of the LOTR films... Might need some makeup to look more believable, but you know, they can work miracles these days...
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
They put irrelevant noise like some transsexual or pawns like Walesa and ommited such giants like Thatcher or Reagan.
Steve Jobs is also on that list.
It's a crying shame Michael Jackson isn't there, that his greatness is overshadowed by the ridiculous American media treatment.
This is one of most goddamn talented artists I've ever seen. His speed and artistry in his performances is simply unrivalled. He can prance about like the devil *and* sing live at the same time. His vocal abilities span more than mere singing. His compositional and production talents and ability to reproduce instruments bodily are astounding.
Truly inhuman.
"Butterflies!"
Bruce Springsteen, Bill Cosby, George Harrison, Wim Kok (ex Dutch PM), Pim Fortuijn (ex literally), Mothers (yes, Mothers), Steven Spielberg and Kelly van der Veer (a trans-sexual photo model) as well as 330 other Dutch semi-famous or unknown people, and half a dozen worthwhile people, such as MLK, Danny Kaye and Nelson Mandela (also Steve Biko). Oh and Oprah and Tiger, too!
RMS is not only an idealist but the most dangerous kind of an idealist: a fanatic. And like any fanatic, he does not accept any other way of life than the one he personally preaches and he is not afraid to express that. That's what bugs me.
Where's Theo in all this?
ive known that for a long time.
next headline: "Experts say GNU/Linux doesn't suck."
thank you slashdot, now i can sleep at night
Linus has set back the state of computing by 10 years with linux. BSD is availble in source format and much better than linux.
Maybe there need to be a number of additional warnings included, along with the standard "New York Times, Login Required" disclaimer:
- Flash required
- Explorer required
- WMM required
- QuickTime required
Or just a snide Proprietary plugin/codec required, non-Windows losers need not click link.The irony is that I am running Windows; it just happens that I'm using Phoenix as my browser. I just don't want to have to download Flash (even if the SWF format is public) in order to see a web page.
Who took the funny out of my sig?
Hero as a term is used far to widely nowadays. Linux is a pretty cool guy for doing what he has, but let's face facts here. It's just software, not the cure for cancer.
RMS got recomended? The guy belongs in a looney bin, not on a list of hero nominees. Any good works RMS has done or continues to do are far outwieghed by his mental disorders. The guy has no respect for anyone or anything that doesn't believe as he does. There was a term for such a person back in the 40's, they called them Nazi's.
If anyone in the comp industry deserves to be called a hero it's Woz for his work with kids and charity groups.
Its GNU/Linus!
RMS - sticks to his convictions
So did Hitler.
So did Mao.
So did Stalin.
They also "offered" the world more than most of us ever will.
At least those figures bathed once in a while, though.
was there a cowboyneal option?
> Linus Is A Hero
:
And today, the hero is working for one of the companies behind Palladium
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6487
I posted this on the 'linuxnewbie' forums some time ago, but it curiously disappeared. I've received no mail from the moderators and I've really verified that my message had really been posted. My interpretation is that some linuxnewbie moderator was a Linus fan.
War doesn't prove who's right, just who's left.
Linus Torvalds
Linux Open Source
Over the last couple of years the free Linux software has become a fierce competitor to Windows. Finnish Linus Torvalds is the hero of the Open Source movement.
Finnish student Linus Torvalds wrote his first version of Linux in 1991. He asked a number of programmer friends to take a look at his creation and provide comments. This created a collaboration that is still driving continuous improvements to the operating system. By now there is a fixed group of about 1,000 internet users that contiuously tunes Linux.
Apart from that fixed group there are many more people that provide one-off enhancements. Midnight chat sessions take place to discuss possible additions or enhancements of the collective property. At first, Linux seemed primarily an operating system for hobbyists, mostly employed in academic circles. Towards the end of the nineties Linux started its transition to the data centers of large companies. System administrators would download Linux off the internet for free and started using it in large numbers as web servers (the central computers that host internet sites), often without their superiors knowing. Whenever a problem emerges, this is brought up on internet news groups, at which point tens of thousands of programmers around the world are available to come up with a solution. There is a myriad of advantages to Linux according to the proponents of Open Source. First and foremost this software is free. Contrary to other software there are no license fees and the system can be downloaded from the internet for free.
I'd much rather see "This year's best people" on the cover of Time or People magazine instead of "This year's most scantly-clad." (a la Jennifer Lopez)
Looking through the pictures on that website, these look like people I would actually like to meet (save the black guy with sunglasses and purple hair) as opposed to the plastic celebrities we're constantly bombarded with by the media in the States.
Because looking at the other entries makes me feel the list is not even moderated and doesn't even "comply" with the morals of the Catholic Broadcast Organisation (KRO, but translated). There's one picture of a Turkisch woman ("Nilgün Yerli") with a subscript of "Turkse Troel", which could be considered quite derogatory (near the meaning of "Slut"). Others on the list also don't come close to the "pureness" of a saint, at least not from what I can tell.
;-)
And let's face it, people like Linus as a representative and leader of the kernel development, but I suspect nobody on the kernel mailinglist will call Linus a saint
(Sorry to burst your bubble...)
Simon
Bowie?
Steve Jobs?
Plus about 20-25% seem to be Dutch?
I take it's hard to create totally unbiased list of this sort but this one's just ridiculous.
Sorry bro, but I think you're wrong.
Rocket science is quite easy these days. In fact, I've made my own rocket. Gone are the days of heavy math and perfectly constructed rockets.
Todays rockets use household items like pringle cans and gasoline. NASA has asked me to show to the world just how easy it is to get to the moon with this simple stuff.
Making a compiler is MUCH more different than that. Why, just the other day in my business information science class I had to find the Wizard button in Visual Basic in order to make my compiler!
Now THAT was difficult.
They all are racists, but Republicans tend to make more gaffes.
So, what, is it one saint for every day of the year? If so, what day is St. Linus day???
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Both of them deserve it for their bravery. Mandela rejected his past embrace of genocidal Stalinism and moved South Africa forward. De Klerk rejected Apartheid and moved South Africa forward.
Both of them embraced monstrous ideologies earlier in their careers, but unlike the vast majority who embrace the ideologies, Mandela and DeKlerk dumped them for something better.
RMS
A hero.
Superpowers:
Kernel strike - takes 10 turns, produces a kernel that combined with a set of GNU tools decreases enemy share on the server market.
E-mail - takes 0 turns, gives additional activity to every geek character on LKML. This multiplies by 100 if re-posted on Slashdot.
Flying - well, not yet.
Stalin was just interested in total power he never stuck to any "convictions"...
Lenin, Trotsky, they did surely...
But Stalin, Mao, these guys just wanted a restoration of the asiatic mode of production which is not any better than the bourgeois mode of production really.
I know this will probably activate the froth glands of you zealots, but please read this whole post first. I don't know who compiled this list, but I suspect that if those people were left off, it was done so deliberately, despite their obvious contributions to the development of the internet.
As unpopular as they and their creations are to a lot of people here, I think it's unfair to ignore how they were able to bring the internet to millions of users who, without Windows and/or AOL, would have never been able to do so.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Your "whatever makes me the most cash" approach is why you are posting anonymously to slashdot while people the world over are paying cash to fly in "fanatical" RMS just to hear him speak about Free Software in their country.
Ringo got shafted again.
He isn't as visible as the others; but he's done a lot of post-Beatles work for charity.
Cheers, Ringo.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
No wonder RMS wasn't chosen. He'd require a plugin to view his details. Can anyone post a non-flash translation?
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
It didn't have to be built with free tools to be free.
RMS didn't do anything to make Linux happen. He really didn't do anything to make it free (libre) either.
The only thing RMS's tools did, was make it free as in beer. Linus' choice in compilers wouldn't have changed the license he released the source under. He could have released under a truly unrestrictive license like the BSD license, where people really do have freedom, but he chose the tools and licesne of RMS.
RMS didn't make anything happen, and Linux has been created using non-gnu tools and compilers.
"Tamara Rops - Redde kind uit zwembad" my dutch is rusty (sorry mom!) but this roughly translated is "Tamara Rops - saved a child from swimming pool".
I haven't seen a shout out this long since the Source Hip Hop Music Awards. *Everyone* gets some love from the KRO ya'all...
RMS is the Ultimate troll! He really is. Dont belive me? Look at what he has done recently
* The huge GNU/Linux vs Linux flamewar
* The HURD for the server fraud
* This
* Comic strips promoting hatred to the US goverment!
* Misusing the word free!
This is just a small selection of scandals! He has been trolling the academic community for years! A look at his homepage will show that he whines at everything!
People are starting to realise that the GPL is a FRAUD and are switching to less restrictive licences such as BSD and LGPL licenses. I use linux (not gnu/linux) because its better for MY NEEDS, and I dont wank about with crap like licences.
Please do NOT nominate him as a famous person as he has trolled the world, this explains everything
1) Its in Dutch.
2) Babelfish doesn't do Dutch.
3) RMS is a tool.
Is /. REALLY sure the source is Dutch? Not German nor Zimbabwian? Considering how /. completely f*** up the story about all Danish schools swiching to linux earlier today (the schools just got offered a cheap/free StarOffice CD - for both windows and linux!). And /. never corrected the head line...
here at /., eh?
Linus a hero. \/\/hatever.
It's not a religious.
to be on the list with other greats like Bruce Springsteen, Tina Turner and sting.. WOW
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO
UR MY HERO!
You forgot to mention Mahatma Gandhi and Mother Theresa.
(I'm dutch, not english, so forgive spalling errors. CmdrTaco is now verifying syntax & vocaulary :-)
The free Linux-software developed itself the past few years as a solid comptetitor against Windows. The Fin Linus Torvalds is the hero of the 'open source'- movement.
The Finse student Linus Torvalds wrote in 1991 a first version of Linux. Torvalds asked a few friend-programmers to have a look at and comment on his creation. Thuswas born a cooperation that still today leads tp continuous improvement of the operating system.
Meanwhile, there is a core of at least 1000 internetusers continuously polishing linux.
besides this core, there are many one-time contributions. Thru nightly chat-sessions the discussion about possible additions and improvements of this common good are worked out.
initially, linux turned out to be an OS for fanatic hobbyists, usualy working in academic situations. At the end of the 90s, linux started rising in computer centers of lartge companies. System administrators download linux for free from the Net and use it 'en masse' as webserver, often without IT managers knowledge.
If problems come to light, they get notified in newsgroups all over the net, whereafter tenthousands of programmers are volunteering to help finding a solution.
The advantages of linux are numerous according to open-source fans. Mostly because it is free : in contrast with other software, no licences have to be paid, but rather it is freely downloadable.
Then they go on an nag about linus being gay, having a goatse affair with CmdrTaco in russia in a base that belongs to someone who has bad grammar (like me). Or something.
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
freaks.....
an E! channel list of the top 20 sexiest open source developers.
'nuf said
It's the classic case of a guy who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut.
He'd garner far more respect for his technical contributions if he didn't make us accept his ravings^H^H^H^H^H^Hextreme socio-political opinions as a baseline for talking to him.
Fair or not, RMS the extremist cannot be separated from RMS the coder. And that limits the appeal of RMS the coder.
I'm not one to usually feed the trolls, but I think this is a great time to do this wonderful High-level vs. Low-level debate.
High-level languages can be useful. Visual Studio and the like can serve certain purposes.
However, there are many cases where it can severely hamper your abilities.
Let me give you an example. Visual Basic is an extremely high-level language. Very little programming is required for quick and easy programs. It all has hard-wired Access usage (*shudder*) so Databasing is actually pretty simple if you've ever used Microsoft Office and Access and the like.
However. (This is where the audience says "There's _always_ a however")
This semester that has most recently come to pass I was involved in a Software Engineering course in which we were given a term-long project to work on in development teams. Each group was 5 people each and picked from 4 different projects what they wanted to do. Our team and another team picked a PocketPC-based Application, based on making an E-guide for a Museum.
So, the Prototyping phase comes around, and we decide to do a simple throw-away prototype in HTML, which would just generally show how it would work, how it would look, and get customer feedback so as to clarify the requirements for the project.
The other team decided to do _theirs_ in Visual Basic, with a similar intention: code it in VB, then move on to either Java or C++ or something like that.
Now, after we finish with that, we say "Great. Let's now start coding this in Java."
The other team, however, said "Wait a minute... All we really need to do is implement a database into the VB code and spruce it up and boom, we have a working E-guide... this'll save us on a bunch of coding effort. Woohoo!"
Fast Forward to the end of the semester and we're all giving our presentations.
Ours is presented, it's slick as hell, really nice Graphical interface, simple, easy to use and looks really really nice, and it was entirely coded using text editors.
The other team presents, and theirs is pretty dull (I really don't want to shoot it down, cuz the people were really nice... but it was). The interface was a clunky windows UI which loses a lot of the ease-of-use that was required for the project. Heavy on the pull-down menus and the like, obviously making good use of the Visual Basic toolkit.
This basically gives contrast to those people who shoot down on Assembler purists who tell the story of the brilliant yet misguided hacker who makes a graphics engine in Assembler based on physical principles of matter, and spending an entire night making a slick and efficient wireframe animation of a spaceship flying across the screen, and then the C++ hacker makes, in one hour, an incredibly beatiful animation of a ship flying over Mars and around the moon and the like...
So my point is, yeah, High Level is nice, but going too high a level starts hampering your useability.
Karma: Non-Heinous
No one wanted to listen to him sing this
-ted
This could help our Australian friends a great deal!
If Linus is a Saint, he could claim that he is also of the Jedi religion, and be the first 'Jedi Master'
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
There is a thing called professionalism: I deliver quality products on time and at a reasonable price. If a proprietary tool (compiler, library or IDE) helps me to improve the quality and cut the development time of my product, I will invest in it. I will not let my client down by trying to get by with half-baked free solutions or re-invent the wheel (and waste time debugging algorithms other people have already perfected) just to avoid using the "evil" proprietary software.
But then again I suppose you Stallmanists don't care about quality. The idea of someone actually having clients is probably akin to an unpardonable sin to you. What a way to make friends and gain influence...
People actually paying to hear RMS talk really reminds me of a cult.
While I was happy to see Linus made the list. Alas my day was made when I saw Ann van Elsen made the list. While I really have no idea who she is. She is hot so that does have to count for something :-D
GNU/Linus or GNU/Torvalds? After all, wasn't it RMS who donated all the semen to the FSF (Free Sperm Foundation)? I think we all have a lot to be thankful for in GNU.
It's tough to be critical of Mother Theresa, but Gandhi is overrated. If Hitler had been on a crusade to exterminate all natives of India like he did the jews, would he have just layed down and let them fire up the ovens?
Or worse, would he have just layed down, let them start slaughtering everyone, and then wait for other nations to come in and sacrifice their own lives to save them?
Gandhi got lucky, because he was battling the british empire that had a basic morality. Gandhi's philosophy itself, however, was fundamentally immoral.
While Linus is nice it seems that most of the voting was done in terms of popularity. If I recall quite a few saints were fairly unpopular in thier times or rather eccentric. Quite a few only reciving recognition well after thier deaths. I would definitly say that RMS fits the bill much more than some others. I'd have to say that popularity is probabaly the least likely reason a saint would be picked. A good thought though. Certainly saints can and shold be picked outside of purely religious contexts.
Based on the votes accumulated by the KRO site this woman is beating out the competition for supreme hero of 2002! Apparently she laid the smack down on some rowdies at a train station on the mean streets of Apeldoorn. My hero!
Story follows from the Google cache...
Almelo, January 17, 2002. Actually she'd like to be an actress, but after last weekend she's not so sure anymore. The police see a good agent in her and the NS would also like her as a ticket-taker. Charity, a mavo student from Almelo, was showered with flowers, gift certificates and a pair of earrings from the mayor. "He was really proud of me."
Staying past the time set to leave for school, everyone wanted to hear exactly what happened last Sunday in the train between Amersfoort and Apeldoorn. Charity (who doesn't want her last name revealed for fear of reprisals), traveled alone, after going out in Amsterdam. People in the train car were bothered by a group of 17 boys coming from a boarding school in Voorst. "Pestering, swearing and smoking marijuana," said Charity," And if you looked at them, they got angry." When the train stopped in Apeldoorn, a fight broke out between two ticket-takers and the boys. The ticket-takers, who had spoken to the boys about their behavior, were pushed to the ground, punched and kicked. Charity could see through the window that none of the bystanders were intervening, including the men dressed in green military clothing.
"I dialed 112 and then jumped in without thinking. 'Stop! Let them go!' I screamed." Charity was also struck with a few blows, but it worked and the group separated. The police managed to detain five of the attackers, and the day after apprehended one more. The remaining ringleaders are under house arrest at their boarding school, Charity was told.
Others talked about her heroic status, but Charity herself thinks that her taking action was the most normal thing to do. "I always stand up for others." But this time she was even more motivated through a discriminatory remark made by an older woman who was also sitting in the train. "It's always those dirty blacks," remarked the woman." "I wanted to show that not everyone who has skin of color misbehaves," said Charity, daughter of a Dutch mother and Surinam father. "Charity can't ignore injustice, it's in her genes," said Charity's mother, Chantal. "Teasing, bothering, Charity always defends the victim."
She also notices that she's the target of regular discrimination because of her skin color. Last summer, Charity was beaten up at the station in Rijssen by a few girls who apparently took issue with the skirt she was wearing. "If you've ever gone through it, then you don't want others to have to go through it. So I knew how the ticket-takers felt." The blows she got in Apeldoorn at the station led to some swelling, but she doesn't feel them anymore. She is more bothered by all the attention she's getting. At the police station, there remain two lists of names of people who want to hear her story.
Let me get this straight: George, John and even Paul are heroes/saints but Ringo is chopped liver? I realize that the others did more noble things post-Beatles, but come on. Ringo did "Caveman", with Barbara Bach, Dennis Quaid AND Shelly Long.
Sure, I respect Linus for his work and contributions to the IT world and the "liberation" from propertairy software and unethical licenses. However, the REAL heroes on that page are two victims of "zinloos geweld" as we dutch people call it, or "senseless violence" if translated into english. These two people I'm talking about are René Steegmans and Meindert Tjoelker (both on the same page as Linus) who were killed for no reason at all. Maybe not such a big thing in the US, but remember that the Netherlands is about 1/232th the size of the US. (according to the CIA factbook, ahem) Meindert Tjoelker was killed when trying to calm a fight between a few people and René Steegmans was killed when he questioned a bunch of guys wether they had any respect for an old lady who they almost ran over on scooters. They are real heroes to us Dutchies.
Hate me!
We need more people like that in this world. I am proud of having served six months in jail for totally refusing to serve in the military (meaning also the unarmed service option).
I'm shocked that I don't see Ellen Feiss or Natalie Portman on the list.
Why focus on Linus in this story? Tim Berners-Lee is deservedly in the same list. If Linus is a Saint, Tim must be the Pope.
I think you have posted your comment in the wrong story. The one about micro$oft buying macromedia is here
...
Oh wait
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
If that makes you feel better about being a Republican, whatever. It is false though. Are all the non-white democrats also racist? Why do you suppose there are so many more non-white democrats than republicans?
What the fuck is that mixed-up jumble of letters on that web site? Ah cain't make out heads nor tails out o' that furren jibber-jabber!
Learn to speak English, you dumb-fuck Dutch! Sheesh, put down the hash pipe long enough to do something RIGHT for a change! Besides being the world's leading producer of child pornography, that is!
What can I have been thinking all these years? It's so simple! Thanks, Space Ghost!
Anyone else notice how much Linus looks like Bill Gates in that picture?
- http://pakman.sytes.net/
Several people in class commented that our project was the best, so I have to say that you're full of shit, and it's pathetic that you feel the need to trumpet your second-rate project here on slashdot, where you think nobody else from class will be able to call your bluff. Your project sucked. Deal with it. VB kicked your ass.
Did anyone else think from the title that they were talking about Linus from Snoopy? You know with the Charlie Brown Christmas special lately and all...maybe I've just had 1 too many Christmas specials =P But both Linus's are pretty cool =D
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Who's that?
...rename my charachter in Morrowind.
Name: Linus
Level: Godlike
Cast: Knight of the Open Source
Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
Eventhough I still like /.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
A Saint Bernard.
I would definitly say that RMS fits the bill much more than some others.
Shh. If the vatican reads this, RMS will be removed from their list.
He's a great founder, but like all founders, he is an idealist, and an un-bending one. He has helped start a great movement, but by his stubborn refusal to acknowledge that the world will never completely move to totally Free software, and refusal to acknowledge that Open source Software in general is at least a great compromise for now, holds back the movement to a degree. The FSF seems to recognize this, as they're moving away from using him as the sole point man for speaking engagements. RMS is a good man, but he needs to recognize his time is passing, and step aside, to let a new era of leadership push on.
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
Shut up, Cartman.
There is absolutely nothing immoral about refusing to resort to violence even under the worst conditions or threat of imminent death of oneself or even a loved one.
Yes, absolutely non-violence is immoral. It is immoral to cowardly refuse to defend yourself and your love ones and allowing others to die protecting you. Now, it's one thing if you are unable to defend yourself/loved ones, or even unneeded to defend yourself/loved ones but unwillingness is absolutely contemptibly immoral.
I am proud of having served six months in jail for totally refusing to serve in the military (meaning also the unarmed service option).
And do you spit on the graves of those who died protecting your freedom on veteran's day as well? Even if you don't literally spit, you mentally spit on them with your "pride".
Hopefully, you have at least renounced your citizenship of whatever country you live in so as not to take advantage of the freedom that "violence" has won for you. If not, then you are a bald-faced hypocrite.
Heh.
That's funny.
Someone pretending to be someone in my class.
Hee hee...
So, what course was it and who was the prof? Heck, what school do I go to?
Karma: Non-Heinous
If google doesn't speak dutch, neither do I. Someone please tell me in English what it said. ;-)
Producer: NEXT!!
Ralph Wiggum: Chicken necks
Sorry but RMS is not even in the same league. He complains and whines and ruins any credit he deserves.
RMS has done a lot do not get me wrong, emacs rules. And he has contributed many things to open source. However he has a socialist vision of programming and wants programmers to beg for a living. IMHO he is no saint. He is a poster child for open source that I do not want on my poster.
I will not hurt another human being even if it means my own demise and I do not expect anyone else to protect me either.
Just as you are willing to fight killing other people and possibly dying yourself, I am willing to die not fighting and possibly witnessing the death of my loved ones as a result of my convictions. Yet, the end result is exactly the same: a lot of people will die. And why? Because someone fired the first shot. I refuse to categorize my loved ones any more worthy of life than the enemies you would be killing.
And do you spit on the graves of those who died protecting your freedom on veteran's day as well?
And how much would that hard-won freedom be worth of if even after or because of their sacrifice I wouldn't be FREE to choose between killing and refusing to kill?
This is something you militants never seem to understand. I am not condemning or passing judgement over those who take up to the arms. I respect your choice. However, if you go to the fight you should know that if you really are fighting for freedom it by definition must also mean the freedom of choosing not to fight.
So, you were feeding the trolls, and you managed to reply with the worst possible non-sequitur I've seen in a while here in Slashdot, and that's saying a lot.
And, BTW, regardless of your smartass rationalizations, Microsoft development tools are absolutely second to none. Writing C in vi or emacs is very nice and gives you that coveted CLI geek aura, but it does squat for your productivity.
Hope this helps, and have yourself a very merry christmas!
Interesting choices..
...Oh, and I like the "official pic" of Albert Einstein...
Steve Jobs
Opray Winfrey
Tiger Woods
Bruce Springsteen
John Steinbeck
Sting
Tina Turner
Steven Spielberg
Pele
Robert Redford
Van Morrison
Michael Jordan
Two of the Beatles (George and Paul)
"Truth is not decided by majority vote" consensus gentium -- Norman Geisler
Go Linus! I always knew he rocked, that's why I named my cockatiel after him! I also named my fish after Alan Cox ...
Good thing it wasn't the other way around. Even though naming your cockatiel after Alan has a certain aliteratory appeal, you don't want to be chasing after him when he runs away in the neighborhood yelling "Here, cox! Get over here, cox!! Com'ere boy!! That's a good cox!".
----- rL
The only site I let Flash through on would be Laila Ali's site and as for the rest... fuck 'em. Flash is for homosexuals and others who like gay site design. I FUCKING HATE the losers who do entire sites in that garbage.
Tons of people who develop open source software or who make linux distrobutions do plenty of consulting work and have "clients" as you speak. Not to mention what better portfolio to have than to be able to point to a widely used, under scrutiny, open source (They can SEE the quality of your code) and have it be accepted by the geek masses? Not much really.
Ok first Roarke invented a new product (this is fiction you do realize?) marketed it and out did his competitors on fair market terms. How in the sam hell do you derive RMS from this? RMS didn't invent anything, he copied very old ideas from AT&T and made some slight improvements on them. The community took it from there. Perhaps you should actually read Atlas Shrugged before spouting off at the mouth as if you understood it. Oh and Roarke was never labeled crazy, he was labeled evil for not giving everything to charity. RMS is the OPPOSITE of Roarke you moron.
Stallman hasn't contributed anything nearly as great as you seem to think. RMS isn't the entire FSF movement, there are MILLIONS more people contributing a great deal EVERYDAY. You Stallman worshipers really astound me with your ignorance and blind devotion to a man who has proved time and time again to be nothing more than a school yard bully to other developers. The only other FSF figure head even remotely as looney as RMS is Theo from OpenBSD.
History wont even blink at RMS, nor Linus. This is just software, not some great political movement like you seem to think. 10 years from now OS's as we know them wont even be a blip on the radar screen.
What free software do I use? What the hell does that matter? Is this the part where I'm supposed to whip out my dick and measure it along side yours to see who's the bigger man?
My clients get the source code and the license allows them do whatever they want with it except to redistribute it without my permission.
I meant The Fountainhead not Atlas Shrugged.
There already is a Church of Linux.
Linus is interested in what can be practically applied to benifit users (Linux), not some utopian philosophy.
I don't think a planet can exist where everyone does something "for the common good". I agree with some of RMS's stance (copyright should not apply to individuals, it is oppressive which goes against the intent of capitalism). But much of it is shockingly utopian.
Barto
Did anybody else notice that one of their "heroes" is a ZOMBIE!!!?? It looks like one of the zombies from the "Living Dead" series. I expect him to say "Braaaaiiiinnnns" (in Dutch, of course).
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I would still not be able to buy a computer. So I would never have bought one and started programming and gotten a great job and made a lot of money and had a company car and gotten laid off and lost the car and been out of work for the last 11 months and 2 days.
maybe I'm on Apple's side here after all. Down with MS!
The truth doesn't care what I think.
There is only one Saint Linus and he was created by Charles Schultz.
Thou shalt not have other Saint Linus before the one true Saint Linus.
Save the World! Use a Quote!
A lot of U.S. posters seem to be upset that they don`t recognise all the names on the list - well I`m sure other countries find U.S. news items rather insular as well. Just depends where you`re coming from.
anyone find it weird that tina turner is on that page?
It's tough to be critical of Mother Theresa, but Gandhi is overrated.
Gandhi got lucky, because he was battling the british empire that had a basic morality. Gandhi's philosophy itself, however, was fundamentally immoral.
I agree to some extent with your view on Gandhi. But, do you really know anything about Mother Theresa? Where did all of the money (hundreds of millions of dollars) that was donated to her Order go? It certainly didn't go toward improving the conditions of the dying people that flocked to her "clinics." They lived and died in horrid, squalid conditions. Those who were dying painful deaths were not given any form of pain killers, after all, suffering is good for the soul. All they received was a good "Catholic death," which was the point of her clinics really. They were not there for the ill, just the dying. But did they have to die in pain and misery in squalid conditions?
While she checked into the best, most expensive hospitals to treat her medical conditions, those who (erroneously) travelled to her clinics in search of medical treatment were ignored or given no advice on where to seek treatment.
If you want to know more about Mother Theresa than what the media has spoonfed to you, check out
The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice by Christopher Hitchens. Had to look it up, I read it a while ago, good to see it's still in print. Controversial, occassionally over the top, but worth the read.
Mod me down and I shall become more trollish than you can possibly imagine!
is *my* hero!
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
So Taylor dropped drugs. Wheee whoooo. That rates in a listing. Ya that really was a societial earthshaking event.
What about the countless "lesser" folk (ie, the non-popular) that overcame a drug addition.
I think the guy that made the list was on drugs.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
The root-mean-square (RMS) of a variate x, sometimes called the quadratic mean, is the square root of the mean squared value of x: Physical scientists often use the term root-mean-square as a synonym for standard deviation when they refer to the square root of the mean squared deviation of a signal from a given baseline or fit.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.
I really do admire your sentiment. I used to be a strident pacifist myself, but now I believe that there are cretin out there whose life isn't worth as much as those of decent person who contributes something to the world. I would like to give you a quiz and see how strong your conviction is, and I hope you'll play along.
Consider the following thought experiment:
Your wife and newborn baby girl are sleeping calmly in the next room. At the same time, you're hacking away on the computer in the study, when you see on the security cam that somebody is entering your house. You recognize the face immediately, because it's been on the news for days. It is a lunatic who has recently escaped from a maximum security psychiatric ward. You recall that this guy especially likes raping babies, after which he always kills his victims, but he's not averse to raping and killing women or men either. He has a gun. You have a gun. You try to call 911, but it is busy.
You know that you have to handle this situation yourself, so you surreptitiously come up behind him, telling him that you have a gun and not to move. He calmly tells you that if you leave the house before he turns around, you get to live, and he'll be satisfied with whoever else is in the house; if you stay, you must either shoot him, or he will shoot you.
When he turns around, he will shoot you, and then he will proceed to brutally rape and kill first your child and then your wife. You know this with certainty. You have 1 second to decide whether to kill him or die yourself, and have your family raped and slaughtered. What do you do?
There are no other outcomes than the two described. Can you honestly say that you would let your wife and child be raped and murdered, not to mention whoever else the guy will do the same to afterwards???
..according to this rather random list.
for those of you who dont know, he was a rather right-wing populistic politician in the netherlands until his violent death this year.
since he is credited in the list as "stem van het volk" (i think this means "voice of the people", on the other hand i am german not dutch), and since both ophrah and lady di are also included, i think one should not take this list too seriously.
and fortuyn is even pictured right besides anne frank! now that is BAD TASTE.
-strangeloop
It's not his ass. The guy is a hermaphrodite, and that is his vagina. If you look very closely at the picture, you can actually see his asshole quite a bit further up. He is a she. See this article for more info.
"Too bad RMS or Saint Ignuciuis he wasn't chosen, even though he was recommended.""
Of course he wasn't! He's no lowly saint, he's nothing less than the Second Coming! He'll tell you himself!
Oh, wait... GNU/Second Coming.
Ah! So that where the phrase "Per-Seat Licensing" comes from :)
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
jackass, what the fuck do you want him to do? move?
Let's just pack up our shit and move, over our internet connection no less. You are retarded
Phhht..... like MS cares about quality. At least in open source when a problem is found they fix it. Unlike your great savior that still hasn't fixed outlook and how long has that been around. "People actually paying to hear RMS talk really reminds me of a cult." LOL, at least open source folks don't go around try to buy/bribe Governments, agencies, etal to use their product.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
Yet, the end result is exactly the same: a lot of people will die. And why? Because someone fired the first shot.
No, the end result is NOT the same. You seem to think that wars and killing are just random events, and have no consequences or reasons. A horrific number of people died in WW/II, yet most people would say those people died for a noble cause -- preservation of the world's freedom. If we hadn't fought, an entire race would be exterminated. If Hitler had conquered the world, it would've taken hundreds of years and who knows how much misery until the world recovered from it.
And how much would that hard-won freedom be worth of if even after or because of their sacrifice I wouldn't be FREE to choose between killing and refusing to kill?
That's not the issue -- the issue at hand is morality, and the fact that pacifism is immoral. You and everyone have a responsibility to civilization to stand against aggressors determined to destroy it. Why? Because those that came before you died to give you civizilization, and this freedom to choose pacifism that you hold so dear. By refusing to fight and embrace the responsibility to preserve the freedom of those that come after you, you throw away and render meaningless the sacrifice of past patriots.
I will say this: There is only one way I recognize a "moral" pacifist, and that is one that refuses to live among civilized society and utilize that benefits of it. Since the freedom and civilization of modern society was won using violence against oppressors, then a moral pacifist must reject it. Otherwise, you are simply a freeloading hypocrite who wants to enjoy the fruits of other's labor, but is unwilling to work or sacrifice himself.
jackass, what the fuck do you want him to do? move?
How about stop whining? Not every web site has to be designed for the crappiest ghetto connection. It reminds me of the idiots with 33 Mhz Pentiums who whine that Doom III won't run on their crappy hardware and requires the latest and greatest. Well don't buy the fucking game then and continue to play your crappy blackjack game. But I shouldn't be penalized for having good equipment and a good Internet connection.
"..Since the freedom and civilization of modern society was won using violence against oppressors.."
Can't agree with that. How was India's freedom won ?
Of course, I know non-violent methods against a totally immoral opponent is very stupid. As ANYTHING in life goes, there various levels and angles to any idea or action. At your position, you make a sensible choice and stick to it. This allows you and your children to enjoy the fruits of your labor and convictions.
Science as a way of life.
gnu/hero?
--Joey
Did we really want to have a picture of Saint Iggy linked to from the front page? I want to burn myself alive now.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Oh, St. Linus we beseech thee. Grant us free software for all us humble servants of the Slashdot. Give us guidance to keep the faith of thy mighty kernel alive. And lead us not into the embrace of the great evil and shield us from its forked and wicked tongue. Keep us safe from the blue screen. Open Source.
Bruce Springsteen
Het gevoel van de USA
Heheh. I can guess what it means. What a description.
Not at all. But perhaps the lame ass designers should *test* for flash availablility when the client connects, and skip the flash it if it is not there? That "technology" has been around for ages now. Sheer laziness to not implement it, IMHO.
If you want to know more about Mother Theresa than what the media has spoonfed to you, check out The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice [amazon.com] by Christopher Hitchens.
Interesting link, thanks. I have to admit, that IS a damn good question. Where did all the money go? Why was there so much misery around her?
Well, given that 98% of the web has Flash available, I don't think the web designer is all that worried about the other 2%. I mean, what about all the people with version 1.0 browsers that don't support table tags? Am I supposed to test for table availability and make a "green screen" version of my site?
There comes a point where you just have to say "screw luddites" and just ignore people who refuse to support industry standards. And Flash is an industry standard.
Seriously, who has heard of KRO before? Exactly. I'm putting out a list of the top 300 coolest dudes on earth - make sure you submit it, I'll include Linus.
-- jimmycarter
if writing a compiler is so simple
Writing a compiler is not actually very difficult. Oh, it's not "hello world", but if you have a basic grounding in assembly and some documentation, it's quite doable for a single person to have a quite usable compiler for a simple language in a month.
Carnegie Mellon University (as well as many other universities) have a compilers course, in which you write a compiler, so many people actually do so each year.
Writing a compiler that does really good optimization, on the other hand, is very, very difficult.
And, last of all, benchmarking and tweaking a compiler is not trivial and takes a *huge* amount of time. If you're compiling for a really simple cacheless architecture, maybe it's a piece of cake, but trying to make a good x86 optimizing compiler (especially one for multiple generations of x86 processors) is a tremendous amount of work.
May we never see th
Bloody ignorant idiot... That's Jan Tinbergen, one of the most influential economists of the century...
grumbl.... bloody ignorant yanks...
...I was starting to lose hope for the generations to come too quickly. And while I disagree with some of the people on there (Marlene Dietrich is, but Corrie ten Boom isn't...), it is a good development to see that people still have heroes.
--ms
I normally keep my mouth shut on issues like this, but this takes the cake. I don't deny Linus' place in history but to consider him more worthy of this type of accolade (which is pure hokum I have to add) than RMS is blinkered. It's really quite simple: before RMS there was no concerted effort to make a free operating system. The work he did to allow us to be in the position we are today, is really quite tremendous. Linus, for all his great work, is small potatoes in comparison.
It's this kind of nonsense that forces the FSF to request the operating system be called GNU/Linux.
Linus is a role model, not a hero.
I seem to remember being instructed as to what a hero is in basic training. But I never understood it, not really.
Not until I met one. Two holes in his chest and fighting for his own life at that point. But he saved two lives prior. That is a hero.
A hero is the man who runs into a blazing fire in order to save your sorry ass.
A hero is the lady who jumps into an ice cold river to save your child.
A role model is someone who writes a free Unix like kernel and gives it to the world for free.
I want to be like Linus some day. I hope I never have to be a hero.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
Those seem like a couple of good reasons.
...but if it were me, I'd be embarresed to be listed up there with Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandi, Anne Frank, The New York Firefighters, Steve Biko, Nelson Mandela, Albert Einstein, etc. Father of the Free OS or no, I'd feel unworthy to lick their boots.
:-)
Then again, there's Bono & David Bowie, so perhaps it isn't as bad as all that.
There are a lot of Dutch folk on there I've never heard of. If it were made by Americans, I'm sure there'd be a lot more Americans on it that few outside of this country have heard of. But, given that its a list made by Dutch people, I'm really impressed at the number of Americans on it. Particularly popular culture figures that you'd figure wouldn't translate overseas well, like Michael Jordan and Bill Cosby.
I think they chose some Americans we wouldn't have chosen. Cosby is one example. He's an OK comedian, and I loved Fat Albert back in the day and all, but still not exactly a heroic figure in my book. More interestingly, they picked FDR and did not mention Churchill. If Americans made the list, I suspect the reverse would have been true. (Even back during WWII, it was remarked that the US and Britan could switch leaders, and both would be happier).
Good, I'll update my religion on the next census from "Jedi" to "Linux". Glad they got that formalized.
Linus Torvalds a saint for his work on Linux? If he is a saint then Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are gods. All he did was take the labour of other peoples hard work and call it his own.
Give me a break...
The creator of IrfanView could have been nominated too. In fact, a kind of "Nobel Prize" for free software could/should be created each year. I would be willing to give my 10$ for that every year, and if millions are ready to do the same, well...
Buddism is occasionally mixed with other religions (as it's more philosophy based than deity based)
One Christian buddist chirch exsists (so I'm told).
Also often Wicca mixes with other religions (it's already paganism coctail) A Zen Wicca coven exsisted a few years back.
All thats needed are to rationally compatable religions.
In anchent times mixing religions happened a lot. Bast was marryed to just about every god as she got transplanted into diffrent groups.
This btw is why 'you shall have no gods before me' It's basicly the problem of corupting religions as they murge for political reasons.
But Linux and Slackware are compatable enough. All hail GNU/Bob the pequin savor. We want open slack.
On the aside. The chirch of GNU DotCom is corrupted.
It's the mix of open sorce and capitalism. The all mighty doller and 'free speach' aren't directly compatable.
The GnuBob as a medium between makes a holy trinity that works.
All hail GnuBob and his messanger the all mighty doller.
I don't actually exist.
The chirch of Gnu/StarTrek.
In that one the all mighty buck is a Farigi and not evil but not to be totally trusted.
A good buffer.
GnuCthulu? Umm maybe staying away from ElderGod Linux might be wise.
I don't actually exist.
I don't wanna get into the whole whether pacifism is right or not, but I despise people who design impossible situations. Hypothetical is just a synonym for bullshit in my book. If you can't convince the guy to your viewpoint with out resorting to impossible imaginary scenarios, don't bother trying in the first place.
Why not fork?
Thanks for your words of wisdom, now crawl back into your hole, troll!
Well, I think you are the troll, but anyway, theres a difference between thought experiements, and hypothetical situations with insanely strict rules to designed to force a person to go against their ideals. Stuff like "If you you could only save one of your children, which one would it be?" Its an impossible question. Or like the grandparent, "If you had almost no choice except NOT to be a pacifist, in this ridiculous contrived situation, because if you stick to your pacifism your entire family will die, or you can pull a trigger and your family is saved." Its a dirty tactic. Anyone can come up with some contrived impossible situation where you can't live by your principles. There is no philosphy that can not fall victim to the over-powering "hypothetical situation". And if you feel the need to use a "hypothetical situation" you aren't arguing your side of the issue very well.
Why not fork?
Interesting link, thanks. I have to admit, that IS a damn good question. Where did all the money go? Why was there so much misery around her?
There's no accounting where the money went. Undoubtedly, some of it went to build clinics in other locations and to pay for her medical bills. As for the misery, well, she set up shop for the dying poor in third world countries. The vast majority of them were terminally ill and would have died in misery even if they stayed home. With all that money, surely she could have eased their suffering a bit?
Mod me down and I shall become more trollish than you can possibly imagine!
What about more trivial cases? What if, for example, when you were children, your brother took away a toy of yours, or something of that nature? You're presented with two options: beat his ass and get it back, or solve it in a non-violent way. I don't see how anyone could possibly say that someone doing the latter is "immoral". That's ridiculous. You're basing an entire philosophy on a very small per-centage of possible occurances. Maybe World War I and II were justified somewhat, but there are other wars that have happened with somewhat questionable motives. Again, i don't see how not participating in something like that could be considered immoral, if your opinion is that the war itself is immoral.
Defending one's country represents a VERY small piece of the possible-violent-conflicts pie. Most likely 90% of all would-be violent conflicts in one's life would be trivial, stupid things, like the example i mentioned above. And pacifism does NOT mean inactivity, as your posts seem to suggest. Pacifism simply means non-violence. A peace accord, a compromise, a petition, a refusal to obey orders; these are non-violent ways to end conflicts. Pacifism does not mean simply sitting on your ass and watching the world go by because you're a coward. Pacifism means you strive to solve conflicts without violence.
You obviously either don't know what pacifism means, or you're choosing to ignore the broader scope of it.
My thought experiment was designed to test the conviction of the belief -- that is, are there limits, and if so, what are they? If you were a pacifist and you would not stick by your pacifism in the hypothetical situation, then we would have established that there is a limit to your pacifism (it isn't absolute). Perhaps there are other limits. The reason this came up in the first place is that the original poster implied that there were no limits at all to his pacifism. If that were really so, he would have to say, "I would die and let them die in that situation." Whether it's likely to occur or not is irrelevant. It is totally legitimate, even standard practice -- e.g., in thought experiments -- to come up with unusual, extremely unlikely scenarios, often for pedagogical purposes, but for other reasons too. They often illustrate a point much better than a more mundane scenario -- as in this case.
I'm sorry you have such an aversion to hypothetical situations. Whole worlds of thought are thus completely off-limits for you. I for one, though, am glad that writers, scientists, musicians, artists, and intellectuals of every kind don't share your distaste for the hypothetical.
Ok, let me challenge you with this: Create an argument that challenges the absolutism of the poster's pacifism without using a hypothetical situation. Show me with pure logic why you are right. if you can't, you don't really have a strong argument and your situation is just as invalid as a straw man attack, or an ad hominem attack.
Why not fork?
I am tired of responding to you, since you don't ever directly address what I have said, but just insist on the same 6-year old standard of proof every time. Perhaps one day you'll go to college and take a critical thinking class, and then I'll happily continue the discussion.
Ok, obviously I haven't taken a critical thinking course in college (yet anyway) and I will admit I don't know what "sufficient but not necessary condition" means (but I plan to look it up).
My problem is that the argument rubs me the wrong way. It feels like the mental equivalent (although more subtle) of aiming a gun at a guys head and saying "say I'm great, or I'll blow your brains out". Now, its entirely possible that I am wrong, and frankly I didn't get into this because of the pacifist/non-pacifist issues. I just really don't like an argument that seems (to me) to have artificial limits on its response.
Now I hope I've proven to you that I can be reasonable. Obviously this dicussion isn't going anywhere and I think we should agree to disagree. Either that or argree to disagree and secretly think the other is a jerk ;)
Why not fork?
To relate this back to my original remark, having a clear (correct) explanation that doesn't rely on hypotheticals is a sufficient condition for establishing the truth of the claim, but it is not necessary. To say that it isn't necessary is to say that there are other forms of justification that are also sufficient. I am making the claim that one of these alternate means of justification is a hypothetical that brings the issue at hand clearly into focus. You disagree, and are arguing that unless there is a plain explanation without hypotheticals, then the claim is false. The claim we are considering here is whether the guy's pacifist views are absolute (i.e., no exceptions whatsoever) or not.
My problem is that the argument rubs me the wrong way. It feels like the mental equivalent (although more subtle) of aiming a gun at a guys head and saying "say I'm great, or I'll blow your brains out". Now, its entirely possible that I am wrong, and frankly I didn't get into this because of the pacifist/non-pacifist issues. I just really don't like an argument that seems (to me) to have artificial limits on its response.
But there are natural limits on possible responses, and this is what my hypothetical illustrates. Either the guy's pacifism is absolute, as he implies, or it is not. If it is absolute, then it would not be possible for me to come up with a scenario that would cause him to go against his beliefs. Conversely, if it is possible for me to come up with a scenario (any scenario at all, however unlikely, however contrived) that causes him to go against his beliefs, then his beliefs are not absolute. This follows necessarily from simple rules of logic and the definition of absolute pacifism (or the gloss that I gave it as 'without exception'). Anyway, perhaps you still disagree, and we can agree to disagree.
Fellow programmer, greetings! You are reading a letter which will bring
you luck and good fortune. Just mail (or UUCP) ten copies of this letter
to ten of your friends. Before you make the copies, send a chip or
other bit of hardware, and 100 lines of 'C' code to the first person on the
list given at the bottom of this letter. Then delete their name and add
yours to the bottom of the list.
Don't break the chain! Make the copy within 48 hours. Gerald R. of San
Diego failed to send out his ten copies and woke the next morning to find
his job description changed to "COBOL programmer." Fred A. of New York sent
out his ten copies and within a month had enough hardware and software to
build a Cray dedicated to playing Zork. Martha H. of Chicago laughed at
this letter and broke the chain. Shortly thereafter, a fire broke out in
her terminal and she now spends her days writing documentation for IBM PC's.
Don't break the chain! Send out your ten copies today!
For example, if \thinmskip = 3mu, this makes \thickmskip = 6mu. But if
you also want to use \skip12 for horizontal glue, whether in math mode or
not, the amount of skipping will be in points (e.g., 6pt). The rule is
that glue in math mode varies with the size only when it is an \mskip;
when moving between an mskip and ordinary skip, the conversion factor
1mu=1pt is always used. The meaning of '\mskip\skip12' and
'\baselineskip=\the\thickmskip' should be clear.
-- Donald Knuth, TeX 82 -- Comparison with TeX80
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...