Slashdot Mirror
FoxPro On Linux, Drama Ensues
bltfast32 writes "I don't know how many people have been following this, but this is definitely worth keeping an eye on. Whil Hentzen, prominent FoxPro and Linux advocate, has received some heat lately for publishing a HOWTO in the March 2003 FoxTalk issue for running Visual FoxPro 8.0 on Linux with WINE. Of course, the aforementioned heat, is coming from Redmond. Here is a link to a nice summary of the interactions by Whil." That summary mentions the Register article online here. bltfast32 also points to another article which requires registration.
Anytime now we should be seeing some boobies posts.
People bitch all the time on here about how much MS sucks and whatnot, and yet look at the demand there is to run their applications, and the ensuing bitching when they fight back.
To anyone who has followed MS's track record (as highlighted so vociferously here on
Even if it may result in more use and sales of their product, the name of the game is control and MS values that, it seems, more than potential profits. In fact, it probably costs them more dollars for their lawyers to draft various emails and notices than it would if a few Linux nerds run MS software. In fact, the latter probably costs them zip.
Thinking about this a bit more, it seems that control is the name of the game in most of industry --MPAA and RIAA certainly included!
I know that Linux and GNU software carries some terms of their own, and I can't imagine any Open Source developer that would be that thrilled if Microsoft pulled a quid-pro-pro and copied our stuff into their stuff. Isn't there any alternative that was actually designed to run on Linux?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
Can end users be penalized if they run something that uses statically or dynamically liked VFP code on Linux? Say, I get a screensaver and I decide to run it on Wine, (but for some reason the screensaver uses some VFP code, don't ask me why or how :) ), do I get into trouble?
Or, am I being too paranoid?
S
The VFP user community is of course mostly responsible for this. Sites like UniversalThread have "kept the flame" going for many years, much to the chagrin of Certain People at MS that would very much like the thing to die and go away. This is the difference between VB (which got effectively killed with .NET) and VFP - the people who use it. They're a vociferous, dedicated and almost fanatical bunch. But they've gotten their way every single time.
I remember the endless threads back in the mid 90's on Usenet about how VFP was on the way out, to be replaced by VB and VC++. They're on their 8th version now, going strong. VB only got to 6, and MS never really solved its problems (VC++ is a different issue - it's actually used by Microsoft so they can't touch it). Guess who's laughing now.
And I doubt this time things will go differently.
That this was only a matter of time. I have this bad feeling before long, any microsoft products, or any software company that is in bed with microsoft will be checking during install to make sure that there is a valid windows license.
There will probably be a line in the EULA stating: It is illegal to run this program on a non-windows operating system.
I sure wouldn't put it past microsoft. I'm sure there would be ways around it, but then microsoft would have a great way to take anyone to court using wine to run windows software on linux.
- I'm very happy wearing my tinfoil hat!
Good thing MS was convicted of anti-trust violations. Now they can't tie thier software to the Windows OS...
I love justice! How about moving away from FoxPro and MS to send MS a message? Like "we won't bow to your oppresive EULAs anylonger".
ps: Fb- is the father.
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
OK what about MS office under Crossover. Does Redmond have Codeweavers in their cross hairs yet?
...as it is unlikely that many businesses are going to be willing to convert their workstations from Win XP to Linux.
The best/most stable VFP/Linux setup is going to be windows clients running VFP apps accessing data from some flavor of Linux SQL server. This doesn't appear to violate the EULA...
Let's see if I read this right. Microsoft requires FoxPro apps to be run on a Windows platform. Some may even say that they "tie" the use of such a custom app to their OS (although we all know that they don't undertake such behavior, as stated in their testimony to the Fed courts, right?) Maybe Slashdot should start a category for articles that we all know are coming. Something like the "You Knew It Was Coming" category or such. While I'm always awed by their lack of hubris, I'd say that anyone who was truly shocked or awed by this development would have to still be quite wet behind the ears. My $.02 worth, Alabama Mike
Pimpin' all the Karma Hoes!
Isn't it illegal for Microsoft to tie any of its software products to its OS?
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR MICROSOFT SOFTWARE IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This Microsoft End-User License Agreement (''EULA'') is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft Corporation for the Microsoft software product(s) accompanying this EULA, which include(s) computer software and may include "online" or electronic documentation, associated media, and printed materials (''SOFTWARE PRODUCT''). By installing, copying, or otherwise using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or any UPDATES (as defined below), you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, do not install, copy, or otherwise use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT; you may, however, return it to your place of purchase for a full refund. In addition, by installing, copying, or otherwise using any updates or other components of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT that you receive separately as part of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (''UPDATES''), you agree to be bound by any additional license terms that accompany such UPDATES. If you do not agree to the additional license terms that accompany such UPDATES, you may not install, copy, or otherwise use such UPDATES. SOFTWARE PRODUCT LICENSE The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties, as well as other intellectual property laws and treaties. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed, not sold. NOTE: The terms of a printed, paper EULA which may accompany the SOFTWARE PRODUCT supersede the terms of any on-screen EULA found within the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. 1. LICENSE TO USE SOFTWARE PRODUCT. 1.1 General License Grant. Microsoft grants to you as an individual, a personal, nonexclusive license to make and use copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT for the sole purposes of designing, developing, and testing your software product(s) that are designed to operate in conjunction with any Microsoft operating system product. You may install copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on an unlimited number of computers provided that you are the only individual using the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. If you are an entity, Microsoft grants you the right to designate one individual within your organization to have the sole right to use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT in the manner provided above. 1.2 Documentation. This EULA grants you, as an individual, a personal, nonexclusive license to make and use an unlimited number of copies of any documentation, provided that such copies shall be used only for personal purposes and are not to be republished or distributed (either in hard copy or electronic form) beyond the user's premises and with the following exception: you may use documentation identified in the MSDN Library portion of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT as the file format specification for Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Access, and/or Microsoft PowerPoint ("File Format Documentation") solely in connection with your development of software product(s) that operate in conjunction with Windows or Windows NT that are not general purpose word processing, spreadsheet, or database management software products or an integrated work or product suite whose components include one or more general purpose word processing, spreadsheet, or database management software products. Note: A product that includes limited word processing, spreadsheet, or database components along with other components that provide significant and primary value, such as an accounting product with limited spreadsheet capability, is not considered to be a "general purpose" product. 1.3 Storage/Network Use. You may also store or install a copy of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on a storage device, such as a network server, used only to install or run the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on computers used by a licensed end user in accordance with Section 1.1. A single license for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT may not be shared or used concurrently by other end users. 1.4 Visual Studio-Effect of EULA. This Section 1.4 also applies if the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is Microsoft Visual Studio, a suite of development tools and other software programs (each such tool or software
I didn't realize that FoxPro was still being used, considering Microsoft's push of Access and SQL Server.
I understand wanting to move away from MS to Linux for certain customers. My question is why in the world would you (a consultant) sell your customers an MS solution running under emulation in a Linux environment? Bite the bullet man, learn to code your applications using tried and true Linux tools. Don't cling to the past if, as you say, your goal is to stop using MS products. I'm no MS fan, but as a once VFP developer (now ASP.NET) I can understand the love for it.
*rimshot*
Hey anyone know if you can run dBase Plus (the latest visual-OOP-BDE version of the even more ancient and venerable dBase line) on Linux thru Wine?
I can guarantee that if you can get dBase running, dBase Inc. will shake your hand, not slap your wrist. They've been promising a Linux version for ages, and if they could find the time, they would have released one by now...
- Murphy's Corollary: - It is impossible to make things foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
No, not if they fit. It seems like a ridiculous assertion.
Yet this is precisely the same problem we have here with VFP and WINE. Erosion of rights in using a product. Maybe in future EULAs, Microsoft will prevent the use of the install CD case to hold open doors in offices with BSD servers.
Dumb? Yeah. But where will it stop?
And an illegal one, but they'll wait until the DOJ raps their knuckles on every issue until they C&D. This is "leveraging their OS monopoly" if I ever saw it.
So if I were the guys trying to run FoxPro on linux, and assuming M$ doesn't decide to play nice, I'd fire off a comment to the people in DOJ supposedly enforcing this crap. It worked for getting the Explorer Uninstaller more prominent positioning.
Yeah, it's funny how much of real programs are written in C/C++. You'd have thought Java/Perl/Python/4GL++/UML/RationalChablis/whateve r etc. had killed it off in 1995. I hope this fad of not programming in C will die off soon.
Because if WINE was an emulator, we could argue that the software is indeed running on windows, on top of a WINE virtual machine.
In that case, we could say the the physical computer running Linux and WINE is a high level computer and Windows is running on top of that computer.
There is nothing strange in this situation if you notice that most peripherals and controller chips have it's own builtin software (firmware) and even microprocessors are running on top of it's own internal microcode/nanocode software.
You're missing the point. My bet is that many FoxPro applications are vertical apps - apps that run video stores, for example. It would appealing/cost effective/desirable to run Linux POS systems instead of WinXP systems. Since there isn't a license per runtime for a VFP .exe combined with no license for the OS, I bet this combo would be HOT in the retail industry!
OpenOffice.com was a bit faster, more stable and supported foxpro files then we can tell microsoft to apt-get lost.
Holy crap! How much of this BS do you have to put up with before you answer the cluephone? I left the world of Microsoft programming 5 years ago because I was tired of the hassles like these. I can't imagine how much worse it's become since then. It's not worth it.
Another thing I have to wonder is why this guy decided to not do his demonstration based on a single phone call from Microsoft. Seriously, so what if it's really a EULA violation? What are they going to do to you? Anything that they could possibly do requires them convincing a judge that you did damage to them by breeching a contract. What damage could they show?
If you're not going to answer the cluephone, at least grow some nuts and stand up to Microsoft.
I'd recommend that you join us in the world of F/OSS, it's much nicer over here. Given that FoxPro developers are already a good, strong community that sticks together well, it's a very easy and natural transition.
Michael
Do you have ESP?
What would really be funny is if on April 1, every story posted was a dupe from the day before at that exact time.
ok, I gotta ask...
:)
WHY THE HELL would you want to use foxpro, on linux or otherwise?
the last job I had needed me to interface some web applications to a foxpro database from some program that the HR department used. It might have been that the company that created this particular foxpro database didn't know how to make a database, but that was the most poorly documented, ugly and generally foul database I've ever used.
It might be more stable than access, but I'd even prefer working with an access database to that steaming pile of monkey feces.
I still give the guy +2 balls for publishing it. Howto's are made by people with an iron gut, and you sir, must have one for stomaching foxpro
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
Liquor
Sanity is a highly overrated commodity.
I'm dealing with freaking fox pro right now, it blows goats!
PLEASE DON"T LET IT GO ON LINUX!!! I'LL HAVE TO START DIGGING DITCHES FOR A LIVING!!!
*head explodes*
Maybe I should read the article now.
The difference it that you don't "license" a GM oil filter, you "buy" it. Since software is licensed they have more leeway in their licensing terms.
...And you violated the EULA by reading it.
The idea of April Fools is to do something other than what normally would happen.
findstr /I C:\WINDOWS\system32\*.exe
That uncovers some of the copyright notices from BSD software that were left intact. Other bits of borrowed code probably exist elsewhere...
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
My first reaction to this article was "Who in their right mind would defile Linux by running FoxPro on it?".
My second reaction was, "Then agan, who in their right mind would run FoxPro on Windows either?"
findstr /I "regents" C:\WINDOWS\system32\*.exe
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
By itself, this .EXE file doesn't do the customer or end-user much good. It must be deployed to end-user machines in combination with runtime files (or libraries) that know how to interpret and execute the code in the EXE.
That's true of Visual Basic, too - there's a DLL that needs to be distributed with your programs to get them to work. And I think there's a clause in the VB EULA similar to that in FoxPro (yes, I was a nerd and actually read the thing). Theoretically, that means that you couldn't distribute VB programs to be run on WINE, either. Not that you'd really want to, but still...
I produce electronic music and write little games. Have a look.
I have to disagree. I have Microsoft's business practices more than anyone; but in this case, they are just restricting it from other OSes. That is not the same as bundling it and making sure that it cannot be unbundled. IE and Media player cannot be uninstalled. VFP can.
Do I license my Xbox too?
...you are dealing with a crappily-WRITTEN app in Foxpro. It's easy to learn just enough to cobble together a crummy app in Foxpro, and as such there are a million crappy fox apps out there. This is in no way the fault of the language...which not only offers an extremely fast, stable native database, but full OOP implementation. Don't judge it by some of the hacks that use it.
First of all FoxPro and access have a lot in common in that they both basicaly do the same thing. Most companies do not use its internal database features, but use the form generation tools to create database frontend applications to larger, more robust server based database systems.
Linux lacks a robust RAD tool for createing such frontends. A lot of companies rely on ever changeing data access forms that change with each project. Access and FoxPro enable them to do this with little hasel. This is why Access and FoxPro refuse to die. At the same time this is one of the things preventing Linux from being used in a corprate desktop enviorment. This also explanes why most database apps in linux are witen as web based applications. Linux needs a peice of software that works like Access and FoxPro. Abbras (i think its called) that is included in Star Office is close, but it dosen't alow for createing stand alone apps in the way Access and FoxPro do.
Basicaly, the point im trying to make is that Microsoft never thows a fit about anything unless there is a reason. By getting FoxPro and Access to run on Linux these guys are threatening Microsofts hold on the corprate market and they know it. This shows that if a alternitive or clone of FoxPro or Access was created it would hurt Microsoft quite a bit. I support anything that prevents Microsoft from controling the corprate working enviorment. If no one wants to create a subsitute to FoxPro or Access this this will have to do. By supporting these guys in there endevor you are putting another nail in M$'s coffin.
Trinity
We substituted the coffee Slashdot normally drinks with "Sandoz Crystals", Lets see if they notice the difference
First, read it, and see if it has any provisions of interest to the case.
Next, see if they are actually enforceable under copyright law. Since the license isn't a contract -- you weren't asked to sign it before buying -- they can't take away any rights that copyright law doesn't specifically identify. (Except in Maryland!)
If you want to copy their files to your customers' machines, copyright law is involved. However, if the product was advertised as if that right to copy was included in the product you were paying for, and the package didn't identify restrictions on that copying, then the Uniform Commercial Code says their EULA can't take away whatever you had a reasonable belief that you were getting when you paid. That is, the implied contract of merchantability fitness trumps the written EULA, every time. (Except in Maryland!)
The bulk of most EULAs is wastepaper, just hoping to fool customers into giving up rights guaranteed to them under the law without a fuss.
As others have noted, trying to tie the product to Windows is a specific anti-trust violation for Microsoft since it was formally identified as a monopoly.
I am not a lawyer. (In Maryland, last I heard, the UCITA was passed, overriding the UCC.)
Because there are a few poor bastards like myself out here who want to and is allowed to run Linux on my desktop, but lives in an MS/VFP dominated shop doing other stuff(Java). Would be nice to not have to have two boxes. And it might be a way to finally get the old farts to try Linux if they can run their precious Fox on it.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
Might wanna switch the graphic and linkage on the story page. The WINE icon pretty much points to nowhere, since the story is linked to the MS category.
Wine does require a license of windows to run (it requires DLLs from Windows). So in order to run Wine you need to have Windows installed first! That means that you have a license of windows too!
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Why would you need FoxPro when you have Postgresql and Mysql ?
2003-04-18 15:06:30 MS says EULA prevents MS programs from running on (articles,microsoft) (rejected)
(orginally said "...on linux via WINE")
Like I said in my original submission, if MS sticks to calling running apps via WINE illegal due to the EULA, then distro like Suse, Xandros, and Lindows which are basing their distros on Wine are in big trouble.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
IANAL, but it seems to me that the Doctrine of Fair Use (or whatever it is) applies in this case.
If I buy it, I can use it as I damn well please as long as I don't infringe on the copyright.
But if I've learned anything, I've learned that copyright law is twisted and complex, so I'm probably wrong. Can anyone (say, a real lawyer?) attest to the legal aspects of this?
Yah, who would have thought to put the Explorer Uninstall under add/remove programs. It should be on the start menu, desktop, quick launch and in every folder, just in case. Heck, why not have a dialog box pop up every 10 minutes asking you if you want to uninstall IE.
(Please, feel free to add some snide comment about how IE sucks to this message, you know you can't resist)
Why do you ask? Did you want to change the oil filter?
Here's why programmers run FoxPro: They know it inside and out. It can be stable. and like it our not, not everyone wants to re-write a ton of code to get the app to work in a diffrent language. Not to mention that the speed of FoxPro runs circles around anything I've seen running SQL.
Was FoxPro developed by Microsoft, or was it bought, a la Visio/Flight Sim/Countless Others...
If it was bought, I wonder what the developers think of this...
-twb
False. They can say "this product is designed to be used on system X; we will not support it if you use it on system Y". However, nothing gives them the right to demand that you use the product on system X, just like GM cannot demand that you have your car serviced only at Goodwrench. That is an abuse of monopoly, plain and simple.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Here's a thought. In grade school we learned of a construct know as a _paragraph_. I think MS should review this concept and put it under the consideration of the EULA Review Board for their approval.
How do you know he has agreed to the EULA to start with? Perhaps he has not.
So some non-DB HR monkeys put together a badly documented database, therefore the language is at fault?
That doesn't make much sense to me.
My Journal
..."It appears that Microsoft is tying the tie its applications (developer tools) to their operating system," Hentzen told us...
Duh! What rock have these guys been hiding under for the last several years? Care to take a bet that there were some of the people who were against the DOJ and for MS, and basing it on not knowing the facts to boot? Apparently some of them at least have now had their eyes pried open, and this is a good thing. Ignorance sure is bliss isn't it?
(Stolen sig) Remember: it's a "Microsoft virus", not an "email virus", a "Microsoft worm", not a "computer worm
...as it is unlikely that many businesses are going to be willing to convert their workstations from Win XP to Linux.
We're running a VFP accounting system. We're quite happy with it, and yes, we'd be willing to switch many of them to Linux.
For us, the OS is just an app loader. This is what the M$ rep simply doesn't understand when he tried to get us to upgrade to WinXP. Our Win95/98 workstations load the apps perfectly well, thankyouverymuch. "Yes, that includes the VFP8 apps, despite what the box says."
The cheapest app loader (that works...) wins.
The fact is people will code in whichever environment they are most comfortable with. Some folks still believe that ADA is an awesome language. Perhaps, within its own world, it is. However, that language isn't accessible to the greatest amount of developers available on the planet for that. If you're hired to do a project for a customer and you want to lock it into your own world so that you're the only one that can fix it when things go wrong, you'll go with ADA or with Vulcan (remember Wayne?).
...From the Mind of a Dragon.
Now Foxpro IMHO resides in the same world. FoxPro, like FileMaker and Access, offers a nice development interface for low to mid-tier development folks. So, for many businesses, it's cheaper to hire a FoxPro guy to quickly get something done than it is to hire an Oracle developer (not to mention the Oracle licenses and the pricy hardware that goes with it).
Unfortunately for the folks in the FoxPro market, they are actually facing stiff competition from the Linux world. Colleges and Universities are cranking out Perl/PHP/MySQL developers like mad. It's cheaper to teach the concepts of a development environment when you don't have to pay money to license the very development environment you're trying to teach.
Seeing their development community shrink, the FoxPro community, which has been long ignored by Microsoft, has provided a novel response to this very threat. Granted, it's a hack, but it provides an avenue to development that may have not existed for folks in the FoxPro community. Now, all those FoxPro apps will work on a 'nix box.
Microsoft, like Saddam Hussein, is very threatened by anything that will knock their base down. Their main revenue base relies on Windows/Office installations. Foxpro is something that they do receive some monies for from time to time. It may not be a strong profit center, but they do get monies from Windows and Office licenses that those FoxPro applications run in parallel with. They believe that this powerbase is threatened by allowing FoxPro to run on a 'nix/OpenOffice environment.
Microsoft is trying to prevent a repeat of how they got to where they are today. In a sense, they're trying to firewall those openings into that world. Microsoft got to where they are today by allowing development to be practically cheap on their environment (remember GWBasic??). As they progressed, they started to charge the very development community that built their kingdom. For a time (prior to the creation of the MSDN), development was free. Now, it's about $2,700 per developer for a MSDN universal license.
The 'nix community response to the Microsoft challenge has been amazing. Anyone can pickup a comparable development environment, while not as comprehensive as Microsoft's, is quite amazing. Foxpro adds a very interesting piece to that environment.
What Microsoft wants from FoxPro folks is the $200 license fee they get if you buy an $899 Dell with XP pro and Office Small Business for each client. Then the Visual Fox Pro developer can have his application run on that machine which is fully licensed, according to Microsoft EULA.
Realizing the problems with the FoxPro EULA, they made the change to the EULA to protect their market. Prior to the change, anyone could run VFP compiled applications on any operating system. Piracy aside, they would lose the $200 a machine they would ordinarily get by allowing FoxPro application distributions to be open.
Remember, Microsoft has to answer to shareholders. Red Hat doesn't.
Just add {In Space!} to anything.
Oh, come on. Mod parent "funny". (Spoken as someone who once ran VFP 7 under Bob on XP just to prove it could be done...)
VFP is not "just another DB"... nothing comes close to the power of the fully OOP VFP developement package, in terms of Rapid development, reusablility of objects and its built-in data engine.
From The Register article:
"It appears that Microsoft is tying the tie its applications (developer tools) to their operating system," Hentzen told us.
(I assume he means "trying to tie", quite the tongue twister).
I am just dumbfounded! I can't believe Microsoft might be trying to leverage its market share.
Next he'll tell us that they're more concerned with sales figures than with producing a quality product.
It's just unbelievable that somebody could think that way...
(Is there such as thing as too much sarcasm?)
You just viloated the EULA by posting the EULA.
:o)
Only if he accepted it.
see, if he didn't accept it, then he's not bound by it, and can do anything he wants, within the bounds of fair use.
all because of a little piece of paper inserted into the box. What if GM decided to slip little pieces of paper into their oil filter packages? What is the difference? Do you seriously believe that software is licensed because a piece of paper says so?
Software licenses have become the legal equivalent of an easment; Since everyone uses them it must be legal. A prime example of losing rights you have by not exercising any objections.
I am sorry to say this, but I think you have fallen for the oldest propaganda ploy: say a lie often enough and it will appear to be the truth.
VFP is an extremely powerful, fully object oriented, RAD tool for developing database applications. It is often compared with Delphi and VB... neither comparison does it justice: Imagine the OOP power and flexibility of Delphi, combined with the Ease of use (and variant-like weak typing) of VB without the horrible, inconsistent VB syntax (not to mention that VB is not OOP at all). All the variations on C (C++, C#, Java, etc) are more flexible and powerful (without considering data access power), but they take MUCH more code (and libraries) to accomplish the same tasks that can be done gracefully with VFP.
I think it was a combination of both.
there was very little documentation on the specific version of foxpro that it used(can't remember which version) plus the database connectivity was crappy. it took forever to guess what type it was.
It wasn't completely foxpro's fault, however it left a bad taste in my mouth:/
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
EULAs are on a shaky legal ground precisely because in most cases the users are not entering into the agreement willfully. You cannot view the agreement until you buy the software, open the box and start installing it -- but once you open the shrinkwrap, you implicitly agree to the terms hidden inside the box and you can no longer return the software. In effect, EULA is an attempt to impose hidden restrictions on you post-sale.
Secondly, even if we assume that EULAs are not intrinsically illegal, that doesn't mean that every clause the vendor puts in the EULA is enforcible. A vendor cannot demand, for instance, that you give them all your possessions after your death. Such a clause would simply be thrown out if the matter ever went to court.
An interesting anecdote I heard illustrates very well what I'm saying. One company decided to put this insane EULA in their product. One of their lawyers protested, but was overruled, so he committed a clever sabotage: he added a clause to the EULA that stated, roughly, "the User shall surrender to the Company their first-born child". The product was shipped with this clause in the EULA. Eventually, this was noticed and the lawyer was fired, but do you seriously believe that those people who bought the early version of the product are required to give their first-born to the company?
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
What is happening here is that companies are using EULAs to essentially write their own laws. If these agreements are considered legally valid, then governments are in effect having their courts co-opted to help in the enforcement of the laws (EULAs) written by the corporations.
In theory, we are protected from this by the freedom to avoid the product if we don't like the EULA, or by anti-monopoly laws if no choice is available. If the anti-monopoly laws were being enforced.
I've known a few foxpro evangelists over the years. They swear by it for quick and dirty prototypes, but then switch to big reliable systems for the actual projects.
The great thing about FP+/VFP is that a project lead can whip out a semi-working demo prototype in a few days to impress the powers that be. I've seen 6 month projects prototyped in less than 3 days by a good PM, that he can then email around to people as a first look. FP creates a stand-alone application which can just be clicked on and will run on almost any environment.
Prototypes can have working buttons and controls, which can display simple data drawn from the database. There are (what? libraries?) that can simulate a web browser or java applet, ready to go. All in a nice, easy to run self-contained application. It then lets the planners/architects or PMs see what works and what doesn't, and allows rapid changes to be tested. Having a working prototype before actual coding starts can greatly improve the quality of the real project.
But for a production system? Not a chance. Buggy, inefficient, unscalable. And now a M$ product with unreasonable licensing agreements and total lack of support. VFP has its place, early on in product development cycles, or for tiny offices with tiny data sets. That makes it a valuable tool for certain jobs.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Just in case peopel bottle this up with Linux Vs Microsoft, its not. It seems to be more Microsoft vs having apps made with their software running on a different system, which may in fact bypass there expensive solutions.
Also highlights another issue; Management at MS seems to be terrible, like we didn't know that. Seems to me to become a manager at MS one must hate the customer...
StarTux
Presumably under such circumstances you would be bound by regular copyright law, rather than contract law, and therefore would actually have fair-use rights. Of course, you'd probably be in violation of the DMCA...
As I've heard my lawyer friends tell it, a contract required the ability to negotiate by both parties, and the signature of both parties. Both elements are lacking or very questionable with EULA's. We need to see them challenged in court. As I understand it you can, for instance, cross out a portion of the contract before signing it. The company doesn't have to accept that contract, but you're within your rights to do so. You have no option to edit the EULA before clicking...
-- Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
OK time to show my ignorance of the current state of FoxPro. I am making a BIG assumption here that FoxPro is some kind of development environment that offers, amongst other things, SQL like database access, screen control and report writing. I have NO idea what the scalablity of FoxPro is nor do I have any idea what its networking capablites are. So based on this woefully uninformed background, my guesses would be:
1) Python
2) Java
3) Perl
4) C/C++
5) Oracle
6) DB2
7) PostgreSQL
8) MySQL
As I am not fully versed in the finer points of FoxPro, I am quite sure many readers will highlight why FoxPro is a better DB than the four listed above and why the language/development interface is better than the four listed above.
If VISTA is the answer, you didn't understand the question
IIRC Slashdot was forced to remove a comment by Microsoft a couple years ago because someone posted an EULA. There was a big deal made about it and eventually the Slashdot editors removed the comment to avoid potential legal action from Microsoft. Or do I misremember?
The fact that they are fucking the community isn't too surprising to me, I don't think MS cares too much for Fox Pro. The more fascinating thing is that the community itself is actively trying to get away from the MS platform. That's very interesting. These custom app environments have always scared the hell out of me as a developer but they never die. People are still doing clipper and fox pro and paradox. This old fox pro cat chose to start making VFP run under WINE rather than change his platform. Sounds like a hellova business to either reimplement legacy custom systems on Linux (maybe even OpenSource) or to court some of the few non-MS companies that own some of that software and port it for them. I don't know if it's ever been approached like that, most people would rather do new stuff. The Loki guys showed us how fast they could port games though, taking a few developers only a few weeks to a few months to get them going.
Maybe I'm optimistic but a few years ago, if you could have produced a Linux verions of Wordstar there would be users of it today, there are people who still have the Lotus 1-2-3 slash programmed in to their fingers and the Wordstar control-D. Autodesk are still dragging their feet with regard to Linux, Pro/E has been demoed on Linux but they aren't pushing it yet. There are a lot of apps that could be ported if someone was willing to do the work. Probably doesn't do a lot of good for these poor FoxPro guys but how many more Foxpros are out there? Remember Ashton Tate? dBase? Clipper?
Hmm... I'll take Delphi any day.
If I need DBase* file compatability, there are plenty of 3rd-party objects to buy for Delphi to do it.
If I need to instead access Oracle, SQL Server, whatever, voila.
If I need to convert my app to a web-based app, voila.
Actually, it was information on Kerberos
Before there was Windows, Microsoft was pushing Unix as the OS of the future. Microsoft Xenix evolved into SCO Unix.
I first started with the SCO version of FoxBase+, running on Microsoft Xenix and SCO Unix.
If Microsoft doesn't want me to run my FoxPro apps under Unix, they're out of luck.
With your programming track record I think there's a likelier chance of hell freezing over....
Let us see here... Microsoft developed Windows. Linus Torvalds developed Linux. Both very popular operating systems.
Where's your operating system Max? Oh that's right, you don't have one.
When you distribute the results of your developement, you are distributing code owned by Microsoft. There is not charge for this copying and it probably doesn't come under fair use. Fair Use is often defined by a trial and I doubt there has been one about this kind of case.
Tied sales is illegal in many states and in Canada that one applies to the whole Federation. It always helps to first read your local Sale of Goods Act before whining about a possibly completely unenforceable EULA.
I used to cross off sections I didn't like, but I had to clean my monitor after clicking accept.
TAGS YOU FUCKING BAST-- nm, I just realised that the original EULA probably has that formatting :p
Assuming that the decision to use an open-source OS (Linux, FreeBSD, ...) on the workstation has been made, what alternatives are there to VFP in both the development role and the customer role? More specifically, what makes JAVA a good choice?
I have used tcl/tk on Linux to build nice windowed apps; works great. I have used Perl to build a cgi script tied to a postgresql database, which also works well. I understand that the tk windowing stuff is useable in Perl, and in Python. And a lot of folks speak well of Python.
Just because VFP can run on Linux under Wine does not mean applications should be developed to use that combination. I want to hear what other people are using in these situations, and what people think ought to be used.
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
MjM
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
...but if GM uses a special oil filter connection, instead of a regular screw-on adaptor, they could patent that connector, license it only to Delco to make filters.
(But...they already did this. think Delco batteries with the "plugin" connectors instead of the usual lead posts. Only Delco batteries had them for quite some time. In other words, if you had a GM car, you had to buy a Delco battery, from a GM dealer. Good thing one only buys a car battery every 5 years or so.)
combined with a syntactically simple (which I think can still run dbIII+ era code!)
Yep, It sure does. I inherited a nasty FoxBase app (yes, I said FoxBase) a few years back which really didn't play well with modern hardware/OS/networking. I opend the code up in VFP, and it was running fine. A few weeks later, it had a GUI with no major code revisions....the old text-based interface still worked just fine if someone wanted to use it. And I don really consider myself a coder....I was just a lone sysadmin who needed to make some things happen quickly.
Anybody rememeber that crap from a few years back that VFP was going to become a part of VB? Never heard much about it after a year or so. Gotta love those hardware VFP users.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
those who develop foxpro will you, it's only capable of handling small database. what's a small database? something under 1 million records. Not everyone thinks that's small, but to me that's small. When a foxpro database gets over half million entries, indexing the database becomes unreliable. This isn't I heard it from some one else. It's from first hand experience. why anyone would rather use foxpro over postgres and mysql is beyond me. AFAIK, postgres does not have that kind of limitations. Mysql I have no idea. SQL Server 5 and 6 used to have the same problems. I don't know if SQL Server 2K has that problem, but from what DBA friends have told me, it has improved.
" You know, it might be useful to start a database of instructions to install software WITHOUT agreeing to the EULA."
Cool idea. Let's implement it in FoxPro.
graspee
when did it become legal and accepted for someone to restrict the usage of a product they sell you? I'm all for the rights of the seller over a product to end with the sale.
Jesus H. Christ! My head hurts! I much prefer those little windows that hide most of the EULA behind a scrollbar.
At what point does an EULA become unenforcable due to excessive complexity? I'm thinking not so much of FoxPro but, say, Windows XP Home Edition here - a software product aimed at everyone, not just developers, presumably working within large corporations which can afford legal departments to sort pieces of shit like the above EULA out.
My point is, I wonder if a court would side with Joe Luser who didn't understand salient points of an overly-complex EULA and got screwed and subsequently went to court over it. But IANAL. Any Ls out there want to speak to this one?
political_news.c: warning: comparison is always true due to limited range of data type
I think they will be threatened on this front soon enough. Have you seen products like NXj from Unify Corp? It's an awesome front-end gui that generates java, has a simple 4GL, and competes in this area.
Get rid of everything Micro and Soft: Buy Viagra and/or Linux
'Nuff said.
If one thinks that the benefits from running this or that O.S. are just stability, usability, and price, and that he could change his working enviroment just to get away from some EULA's issues, he is plain wrong.
That is why the major issue, in this thread and many others, is not Linux vs Windows, but proprietary vs free software. Microsoft is probably the most notable example of how much harm can proprietary software do, with it's monopoly generating ever more monopolies.
But, specially developers, should take care of these issues. Even if one feels not int he mood of writing exclusively free software from now on, the free software tools for development will ensure they can do as they choose with the software they produce - some libraries require that the resulting software be free software too, but the compilers and design tools never do this. Market it as proprietary, or free, and absolutely no burdens on the final consumer.
-><- no
Attention, all you asshole companies who hide behind EULAs and the DMCA! I want you COWARDS to know this:
** I should be able to do AS I FUCKING PLEASE when I want, where I want, how I want without having to put up with your bullshit. **
Thank you.
man... that webcomic just has no funny in it.
like a really bad mattress commercial that would be totaly redeemed if it only had someone using a chainsaw to cut their wares open to 'show the quality!'
no chainsaw.
therefore, not funny.
good god...that's the lamest SOVIET RUSSIA joke i've ever heard ;)
Umm.. Borland's Delphi/CPP-Builder does all this. And Kylix too for Linux machines.
OOP. RAD Tools. Object Reuse. And a variety of data engines you can plug in if you don't want to use theirs.
Organizing the EULA in paragraphs would make the EULA more readable and would defeat the purpose of the EULA.
Pre-DMCA and UCITA you could often come up with a reasonable analogy to books. (Post-DMCA and UCITA, grab a lawyer. But some of us still have hopes that common sense will eventually return and the pre-DMCA /UCITA rules will return.)
Anyway, can an author or publisher suggest that you read the book in a comfy chair with natural lighting over your shoulder from a warm spring day? Sure.
Can they compel it? Can they deny you the right to read it while sitting in on your toilet, flushing each page as you finish reading it? Or from reading it by flashlight or chemlight while camping? Nope.
They can't even say anything when you take their magnus opus home and use it to prop up a wobbly table. Or stick it, unopened, on a decorative bookcase.
Software should be no different. You can't copy it and sell it to others. You can't copy it and give it away. But anything else should be fair game. If you want to use the program disk as a really bad source of random data, it's your choice. If you want to run it on an "unapproved" operating system, it's your loss if you lose data because minimal support will be forthcoming.
But no company should have the right to deny any lawful use of its products.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
* Copyright (c) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
*
* This header file corresponds to version 1.1 of the Windows Sockets specification.
*
* This file includes parts which are Copyright (c) 1982-1986 Regents
* of the University of California. All rights reserved. The
* Berkeley Software License Agreement specifies the terms and
* conditions for redistribution.
*
*/
Note: I'm not violating any copyrights. A ten-line qoute from a file that is > 1000 lines long is allowed.
Problem is Max 'ol pal, there IS no purchase involved.
If you read and understood the article, you'd realize that MS doesn't care if you run the Visual FoxPro developer program on Linux, they only care if you run the FREE DISTRIBUTABLE RUNTIME on Linux.
It's because you don't pay a per-machine usage charge for the runtime. You buy the developer, and the Runtime is FREE (to distribute the apps to your customers) as long as you run Windows. That's how they make money on the runtime.
That's why its EULA'ed like that - if you want a free runtime it has to run on windows. If you want to BUY the runtime and license it, well, then that's your bag of tricks.
Are you sure he really is joking? ;-)
I just thought of a counterexample to the Ford/GM oil filter argument. Ford could certainly put a chip in its cars that would insist that new oil filters "prove" that they're "authorized". Any third-party filter maker that tried to spoof this chip would be in violation of the DMCA.
Too weird for real life? Guess again!!!
in his letter to microsoft, one of the assertions whil hentzen makes is:
in case anyone wonders what MSM files are, here is microsoft's definition.
(basically, config files for their installer program)
ITYM Doctrine of First Sale
If you're going to be elitist, it would help to be elite.
Uhhh, you do know that GM sells oil filters for Ford cars & trucks, don't you.
I use them on my Ranger.
Hey, that really *is* longer than my mortgage!
Aaargh!!! It burns!!!
That was painful to even view.
Imagine the cost savings of not having to have a lawyer review such tripe before deciding if you want to / can use a software product.
Of course, my employer has decided that using open source is just too risky, as there might be "intellectual property bombs" lurking within, which is true. OTOH, life is not without risk no matter what decisions you make, and how do organizations decipher what risks / obligations they are submitting themselves to when faced with such a list of rambling "we promise little, but you watch your step" prose???
Yow! I'm supposed to have a plan?
I've seen a few FoxPro databases, and generally the schema design is abhorrent by RDBMS standards. It must be something about the tool.
Deploying of persons to events of topics that are controversial may cause conflict and problems.
Shall we ban protests?
A company has no right to make a restriction like that just because it causes problems, the only thing that the problem justifies is bringing up the topic to the table. The problem does not justify the solution, only the search for a solution.
This isn't kindergarten.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
both
Harbour and XHarbour are FoxPro lookalikes (Clipper clones) that run on MS-DOS, MS-Windows, OS/2 and GNU/Linux. They are both open source and have been up and running quite awhile.
Let's not forget, MSFT purchased FP. Fox Software was a small company from Ohio I think that made a well designed, elegant xbase engine. It ran on Xenix/Unix. Our company ran a multi-user business system on Fox that was comparable to a mini-computer system. This was when everybody else would be happy runing Wordperfect with their single user DOS/Windows session. It was/is? extraordinarly flexible, for example there were some extensions written by a programmer at the Jet Propulsion Lab in Pasadena that were simply amazing. I think Java/Python/PHP have somewhat taken the limelight, but this illustrates that once you have a great peice of software, people will write other great peices of software that works with it. One programmer who wrote a retail system in Fox called it the COBOL of the 90s. And I agree with you point - the software simply gets the job done. Often consultants/managers get lost in the "we can do this in JAVA (or .NET or whatever) it'll be cool", where the real requirement can be met in good ol FoxPro. So everybody gets distracted by FUD, while the FPers keep writing code that works. But point also taken that RAD tools!= great design.
Completely agree, and I would clarify that to be "ban all Windows executables *and* byte code " (or whatever the M$ term is for their Java clone's p-code). Yeah, I think M$ couldn't care less if a few hobbyists run VFP on their Linux box, but if they start running .exe's, or byte code look out!
Does anyone remember the spoof (written in the form of a tv show script) in which the Star Trek Enterprise is confronted with a Klingon warrior star ship, their cannons having failed, out comes a bunch of ...lawyers ... with brief cases! Piles upon piles of documents! Unreal hourly rates! Micorsoft was not founded on technical quality, but it's skill in the courtroom. Interesting how those founding traits permeate and define an organization.
The EULA already isn't enforceable. It's an after-sale restriction. That sort of thing is specifically forbidden in contract law.
The only binding thing in buying Windows is that it will do what it says it will on the back of the box. Copyright law has special provisions allowing you to copy software, as required for the normal expected use. This was the sticking point, software companies claimed you couldn't copy it onto the HD, or into RAM, without agreeing to a license. This isn't true or they wouldn't be bribing politicians to pass the UCITA, the only purpose of which is to make the EULAs binding.
A few minor corrections:
The JPL-DIS from Pasadena, California was largely an English-like query tool and was put onto a CP/M microcomputer on his own time by Wayne Ratliff who named it Vulcan. (As I recall, JPL-DIS was written by JPL to imitate a popular online query tool "Retrieve" used by Tyme-Net in order to reduce JPL costs for the Tyme-Net service. All this came up in great detail during the Ashton-Tate / Fox Software lawsuit wherein A-T tried to prove that they "owned" the dBASE programming language.) Wayne largely did this port to try and help him analyze data for football betting pools, and the name referred to Star Trek's Mr. Spock who never forgot anything. Wayne made a half-hearted effort to sell Vulcan by mail to the new microcomputer / hobbyist market. I think he asked $50 per copy.
George Tate and/or others eventually approached Wayne c. late 1981 and renamed Vulcan to dBASE II in order to suggest it was a more mature product. (That is, there never was a dBASE I) Supposedly that was Hal Pawluk's idea. I think initially Wayne was to get royalties from the sales of dBASE, and I think later when he had a dispute with Ed Esber and Ashton-Tate he was bought out for c. $10 million or so. btw, George Tate died suddenly on Aug 10, 1984 and A-T was never the same. Also, in the early days many of the employees, like George, were Scientologists. A-T was always based in the L.A. area, and almost every product they ever sold was acquired from others. Also, Hal Lashlee was George's early partner, but he did not want his name used so they made up the name Ashton. But, there actually were two Ashton's: 1. A "Joe Ashton" was made up in an early advertisment For years afterward every now and then someone would call tech support and claim to know Joe Ashton in order to try and get better service. 2. For some years there was a parrot in a cage in the A-T lobby named Ashton. They actually taught the parrot to say "Framework!" a later A-T product coincidentally developed by a Scientologist.
Meanwhile, FoxBASE / FoxPro is an example of "clone" software. Dave Fulton and others largely centered around Bowling Green University in Ohio wanted to sell accounting software and wrote their own dBASE-like runtime engine to run it. As it turned out, the runtime engine was more popular than the accouting software, and they created FoxBASE which would largely run any dBASE III code but faster. They also added commands to the language to give it features that dBASE did not have. Their huge break came when Ashton-Tate allowed Fox Software them to have a booth at their 1986 developer's conference.
Also, FoxPro 1.0 was one of the most amazing DOS products ever. I don't know why so many slashdotters have been critical of Xbase (the generic term used to mean dBASE-like languages) It is a tremendous 4GL - the only real problem is that due to upward compatibility the language has become clutted with old commands over the years. IMO M$'s "visual" interface that they largely grafted on from VB is very slow and cumbersome to use, but even M$ can't detstroy the legacy of that team of about six programmers from Ohio that came up with FoxPro 1.0
I doubt anyone else reading slashdot knows more about the history of Xbase or has worked in more areas of it than I have, continuing to this day. If anyone knows who I am why don't you email me and say "Hey, I saw your Xbase history on slashdot!"
btw, Ken Levy now of M$ has overall been a great asset to the Fox community for years, even if his present position forces him to wear a black hat for a hopefully short while.
A one time 'Tater
> ..., Ted Roche and Ed Leafe, and told each of them that running VFP as a development environment was not prohibited by the EULA. Rather, it was the distribution of VFP applications on Linux machines that was targeted by the EULA. The EULA requires that the "Distributables" (defined in a separate file that's part of the Visual FoxPro installation) could only be used "in conjunction with the Windows operating system".
> As I understand, Ken said to Ted and Ed (from my conversations with Ted and Ed - and, of course, any conversation repeated third-hand is subject to misunderstanding, thus my request for having all of this in writing) that you couldn't distribute your compiled VFP application and the VFP runtime libraries to a Linux machine because this would bypass the requirement for a Windows OS to be in the vicinity. He did say, however, that you could distribute the app to Linux machines if each of those machines had a fully licensed copy of VFP on it.
Assuming you believe the EULA to have any legal backing, the second paragraph seems to be implying an interesting conundrum.
You can either: a) not distribute your programs as executables to others, but this could really only encourage sending the source only, which leads to; b) send the executable, but the other person has to have a valid license of VFP. However, if you have enough people doing a, you'll end up just getting a VFP compiler clone which would defeat the goal of point b, gaining more VFP sales for MS. So, is it just me or is MS screwing themselves with this?
Well, anywhere where even the most basic consumer protection laws exist (= everywhere outside the USA)
...
Everywhere ? like, worse than Ethiopia, Romania, Lebanon, Argentina ?
IANA expert, but AFAIK, consumer status in the US is much better than anywhere else except, perhaps, some parts of western europe.
Not that it's always good enough, or even mediocre in the US, but you can be merry, as most of the world is in a deeper shithouse
Working for necessity's mother.
Why is it that US is compared to places like Ethiopia in these cases. I mean that if you better consumer protection than in Uganda, does that make you happy? Yes there was written to entire world, but still. Make the comparison properly to places like Western & Northern Europe, Japan, Autralia, Canada and US (+ perhaps some countries that don't come to my head in 5 secs).
I sometimes wonder how this shit gets modded "informative" when the poster cuts and pastes without spending any time on formatting whatever it is they're trying to post. Did any of the people who modded this actually try to read it? I tried, until my eyes started watering from the run-on, single-paragraph format.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
I'd agree with everything but the RAD stuff. Foxpro actually allows you to program 'interactively'. You get a command window, and can execute a single line of code, just to see what would happen.
The commands are stupid-simple, and unfortunately, Kylix doesn't open VFP tables. I need VFP on Linux, because I have legacy tables from proprietary applications to support :/
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
I agree with you, though there are limits.
Microsoft's actions are absurd; even if they didn't have the lawyers or the monopoly, the use of that product is not up to them only the reselling of the content. When supporting it, yep they can limit that support to specific configurations, but not use. Even if the licence allows partial redistribution (runtime or complied results), where it is redistributed to is none of their business. If I want to use it on my toaster, they don't have any say. When they do speak up or threaten, they should be slapped down.
Additionally in your favor, I found it difficult to make an exception for satelite TV descramblers where you own the hardware and the content is literally raining down on you. Radar detectors fall in the same basic category. Laws that restrict this usage have a potential of erroding other rights. (That said, kudos to Hughes on using logic over lawyers in preventing folks from getting content gratis.)
Here's another more debaitable example and a corrilary. I've used it for years as a rule of thumb to see if a licence for content is reasonable;
Implied book licence
If you bought 1 tape of StarWars in the 90s, Lucas Films & Fox have a right to sue you into oblivion if you set up a business that did nothing but make copies of that tape or transfer it to other media for the next decade and resold the results.
OTOH, if you had a shop that allowed people to make backups or transfers -- even if your shop delt only with StarWars tapes -- there should be no restriction.
The spirit of the initial transaction 'buy this product and watch StarWars as many times as you want' is intact. Like a book, the seller should reasonably expect that for each copy sold only one copy will be in use at a time.
This means that if you make a copy and send one to your cousin in a comma, there's no problem. If she wakes up, there is a problem; both you and she can reasonably use the movie at the same time -- even if neither of you actually do so.
Yes, that is not how the laws are now (insert rant on DMCA nonsense). On the other hand everyone I know makes copies (many even thrust them on me as gifts). Ethically, I buy what I use if that's the expectation from the creator or agents of that creator; I have a copy of DMB's Lillywhite (unreleased) along with a bought copy of Busted Stuff (most of the same thing).
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
After 3 years of admin and modification work on Visual Foxpro / SBT I grew to hate it. Until I was exposed to Oracle...
Show me where, on the outside of the box in prominent writing, it tells me that this is a license, not a sale. The text must be clearly visible to me before I hand over my money - any terms they try to add after that are not only unethical, but blatantly illegal.
Then again, we've never had a White House softer on real crime than the one we have now, so it'll be at least another year before anyone will get slapped for this.
The difference is, you've purchased a physical product, both the car and the filter - you can do whatever you want with them, including squish them into a little composite block.
With software, you have purchased/been given a license to use the software, under whatever restrictions (yes, there are some limits, however little that is enforced) the vendor wishes to impose. If you accept, then you are bound by it. If you don't, you don't have a valid license and can be sued under piracy laws. Keep in mind, even the GPL is a license (although it mentions copyright) with priveleges and restrictions imposed. If you don't abide by the license, legal woes may ensue.
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
VB is total crap. No serious developers actually use it. MS has been trying to push that crap on us for a long time now, but no-one's taking. Partly because so many of the script-kiddies, virus', and other malicious code are VB.
Colleges still teach C as the primary language for development. And that's the way it should be. Java is only good for net-apps -- no-one's going to be writing word-processor, internet-browsers, or anything else of significane with it. Some of the various object-orientated C's are useful, like Objective-C. I should be noted, however, that it's perfectly possible to write object-oriented code in C; and perfectly possible to write C-style code in C++.
As for VB, it's just total and complete crap.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Great site:
http://www.foxprohistory.org
The article and the sumary by Whil mention how Visual Foxpro licensing is different from Visual Basic in terms of cost because of a diffrent runtime file. Can somebody explain why? How can you deploy a custom application in Foxpro without having to purchase multiple client licenses for writing to the SQL server?
Why the hell would anyone want to run Visual FoxPro or Linux in WINE, when there are native, free alternatives. Well not the IDE anyway.
I was all fired up to send a message about this -- and found you'd hit it on the head. This is an abuse of monopolistic advantage.
Unless we use Linux alternatives.
The guys using VFP are certainly at a temporary disadvantage if they learn something new, but if M$ is going to take the position that VFP can only be used with their OS, and if cross platform alternatives exist, then what's the problem? They learn to use Delphi if they want a (semi) cross platform visual environment. Or any of a number of Java IDEs like JBuilder. And step up to the latest and greatest technology rather than dragging a dead horse around. For surely, if M$ wants to beat people up for using a different OS with their products, then a dead horse is what it deserves to be.
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Delphi produces lean, fast programs, but it can take alot of code to accomplish simple things.
VFP produces new, powerful features with little code, and isn't 'anal' about data types.
None of those countries have adopted the DMCA, so yes, pretty much everywhere.
Dude you're high. SQL Server has the ability to import GB size text files way beyond the 2GB limit you are talking about. They have a feature called bulk copy that imports data very quickly.
You're information on SQL server is dated and wrong. How about getting a copy of SQL Server and trying thus stuff yourself instead of regurgitating the complete bullshit you are spouting.
Look forward to your reply fickwit.
I must agree - SQL Server blows away Foxpro's (as a database) bar-none for any large-scale apps. That being said Foxpro is still an excellent choice for doing anything data-centric regardless of the database you are working with. It's local cursor engine is lightning fast compared to any other "desktop" database and is very handy for "munging".
Microsoft have now issued their official clarification on this issue: Visual FoxPro was designed and tested for use in creating applications that run on the Microsoft Windows platform; the same applies to the components that are provided to developers for redistribution with Visual FoxPro-based applications. If a developer wishes to distribute the Visual FoxPro runtime with an application, the runtime may only operate in conjunction with a Microsoft Windows platform. As with any contract, you should seek your own legal counsel's advice when interpreting your rights and obligations under the Visual FoxPro End User License Agreement. http://gotdotnet.com/team/vfp/vfp_eula_runtime.txt
Gads, you're right. He gave the software out for free, I think it was even open source. Sold his soul like Anders Hellsberj of Delphi fame? I'm really wondering what folks like Miquel de Icaza are thinking spending the time writing MONO. Perhaps useful as a C# clone, but I'm sure Microsoft will use a similar argument for running C# bytecode on non-Microsoft platforms such as MONO. Here's an excert from The Register: "Prior to the demonstration, Hentzen received a call from Ken Levy, Microsoft's Visual FoxPro marketing manager, telling him that he would be in violation of the EULA (End User Licensing Agreement) for VFP if he demonstrated (or ran) the development tool on Linux."