Steve Jobs And Jeff Bezos Meet The Segway

deadwood writes "Ever wanted to know what Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos really thought about the Segway the first time he saw it? At the Harvard Business School site, there's an excerpt from the new book 'Code Name Ginger', giving a recounting of the Apple and Amazon bosses' first impressions of the device. Steve Jobs' gut reaction, quoted in the article: 'I think it sucks!'"

Comments

Sounds like a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

"Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos ride into a bar on a Segway, and it falls over."

Re:Sounds like a joke

[uncoveror]

Our Fuhrer, Dubya falls off of a Segway!

Re:Sounds like a joke

[macdaddy357]

Now how can the first mention of Bush on this thread be redundant. All redundant moderations need to be meta-moderated as unfair.

By the way, Dubya is an asshat. You are not supposed to be able to fall off a Segway. Reminds me of Ford falling down stairs.

Segway

[stanmann]

Was that when they saw the demo model, or when they saw the retail pricetag for the thing that won't go faster than a brisk walk.

The President...

[slimey_limey]

I saw a picture of president bush on one of those yesterday.

Re:The President...

[EvanED]

I saw a picture of Bush kind of in midair above one of them lying on the ground...

Re:The President...

[kingofnopants]

you probably saw this

http://www.gothamist.com/archive/002674.php

Re:The President...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the picture I saw, he wasn't exactly 'on' it...

Re:The President...

[terraformer]

I saw a picture of president bush on one of those yesterday.

Yeah, I would imagine after the slap on the wrist M$ got, Steve Jobs thinks he sucks too.

Re:The President...

[slimey_limey]

I saw the one at the bottom of the page. It was in the morning newspaper. I like the first four better, even though they're badly compressed (or out of focus).

Re:The President...

[larry bagina]

Well, Al Gore is on the Apple baord of directors, and IIRC, Steve Jobs contributed to his 2000 election.

Re:The President...

[statusbar]

"Only a moron could fall off a segway."

--jeff++

Re:The President...

[scottymonkeypants]

"Only a moron could fall off a segway."

They were right.

Re:The President...

[George Wanker Bush]

Yeah. That hurt. It was not funny.

this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, bezos

[sweeney37]

Dean Kamen took a big chance inviting Jeff Bezos, he's lucky Bezos didn't run out and try to patent the idea.

Mike

Hey...

[Faust7]

Let's hope they rode it better than you-know-who.

Re:Hey...

[slimey_limey]

Who, Voldemort?

Re:Hey...

[dspeyer]

obSluggy: It could be worse

Hey, is sluggy ob around here or not?

Re:Hey...

[SkipNewarkDE]

Well, it IS idiot proof. Just not SUPER-IDIOT proof.

Mountains of Hate

[TylerL82]

"People will build cities around it...to say how much it sucks!"

Bezos isn't the only one

[sulli]

Pres. Bush loves it too. He can't handle it properly, however.

(I agree with Jobs, btw.)

Re:Bezos isn't the only one

[jnik]

Have a gander at John Allen's analysis of the fall. Somewhat tongue-in-cheek of course.

Re:Bezos isn't the only one

[frission]

here's a couple of other pictures from that selection...just when i thought it was supposed to be impossible to lose your balance on it, Bush proves me wrong. he's a genius! http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/200306 12/i/1055454096.3154296905.jpg

Re:Bezos isn't the only one

[lendude]

Maybe someone should've told the Pres it isn't an all-terrain vehicle. In that first pic it looks to me like he's riding the thing in the garden?

Re:Bezos isn't the only one

[spike it]

'Despite all concerns about security, and a crash in which the President easily could have landed on his head, he is not wearing a helmet.' I cannot imagine the President wearing a helmet. That would probably be some good advertisement for safety, though.

Funny,

[Anonymous Coward]

I though it sucked too!

Funny thing is...

[Anonymous Coward]

I usually say the same thing whenever Steve Jobs announces something.

Jobs is a good businessman

[numbski]

I won't argue the above remark. Without a doubt it is the truth.

<rant>

But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

I love the products his company makes, and I respect his opinions, but the man needs some serious lessons in humility and respect for others. Servant leadership, lead by serving and showing others, not just by blasting them for being wrong.

</rant>

Okay then.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[rot26]

but the man needs some serious lessons in humility and respect for others

Think he might have ended up making something of himself if he had? I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of his contempt, but I can't imagine that Apple would be the company it is today if Jobs wasn't Jobs.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[viking099]

I agreecompletely...
While I respect his business acumen and ability to get his way, I don't think I'd be able to handle him as a friend, or even a business associate.
What I sincerely hope is that his management style doesn't get mirrored by too many people. There are many ways to skin a cat, but I think Steve Jobs would be one of the few people who could make a cat feel so small that its skin just fell off.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

And your comment isn't?

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[thatguywhoiam]

But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

I think he can be an arrogant prick, but I actually agree with pretty much everything he said in the exerpt.

Look at the questions: Why does the design does not excite in any revolutionary way? Why are you building your own factory? These are issues that plague the Segway today. Also his suggestion for Stanford was a good one, it would have possibly forestalled some of the knee-jerk reaction seen in places like San Francisco.

Also, comments like the grocery store example were pretty insightful. That is exactly the kidn of thing that the Segway was supposed to help with.

There is a difference between 'servant leadership' as you put it, and demanding excellence and accountability from people. I've dealt with people like Jobs before - maybe not to his extent - but they only want people to be on the ball. Frankly I kind of admire that quality a bit; too many people are afraid to just confront and ask when necessary.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs isn't here to be your friend. There is a famous line either Larry talking to Steve or Steve to Larry (I don't remember) "You must be my best friend because you're the only friend I've got". Is Jobs' opinion wrong? I think it's dead on. The segway didn't ignite passion in me and from the lackluster sales it didn't do much to incite anyone's passion. It's a boring product that didn't come close to living up to the hype. Of course the hype was before the public saw the actual product. When we saw the product we all seemed to say "that's it? Who cares."
I've met Jobs outside of his industry (shopping at Country Sun in PA) and found him to be quiet and shy. The only time he gets going is if the conversation goes into tech.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

He's not acting...

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[JaredOfEuropa]

"I can't imagine that Apple would be the company it is today if Jobs wasn't Jobs"

I doubt the Jobs of today is the same Jobs that started Apple. I don't see him sitting in front of his investors from way back when, saying: "I am not built that way, I can't sit through a presentation for 10 minutes. If you want me to leave, I'll leave". Most people are, and Jobs was in his early career as well, in a position where acting like a conceited git will get you nowhere. I admire Jobs for what he has created, but he had no call treating the others at that meeting to such a sideshow, just because he can.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[dasmegabyte]

Jobs seems to be doing pretty well as an insistant prick. Why should he go all Ghandi just to appease a few Apple fans?

Dude, it's Apple's "insistant prick" features that have made such good:
"We're going all GUI."
"We're going PowerPC."
"No clones."
"We're making colorful PCs."
"If you want to add a peripheral, you're going to have to plug it in. No opening the case!"
"Now we're making ONE color of PCs. And we're making it damn pretty."
"People can rip CDs. They can burn their own."
"No new development for OS 9."
"$.99 per song."

Apple alone has the courage to combine market research with the newest technology and announce with pride that their way is the best way. And they're right a lot more than they're wrong. If Jobs was a wishy washy guy, Apple would just be Micron, or worse, IBM.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[justzisguy]

I don't think you can be judging Jobs for the poor performance of the Motorola processor line. Even with the G4's limitations, the extra time Apple spends on honing the design have left the company with a very capable product. Performance isn't everything.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[numbski]

The only time he gets going is if the conversation goes into tech.

My fiancee tends to complain about that nuance of myself as well....but that's another story. ;P

I see nothing wrong with speaking up and standing up to someone when they are dead wrong, and perhaps a written article doesn't sufficiently express the mood of the meeting as it were. His points were all valid, absolutely. I could also insert a PCI card using a sledge hammer. I wouldn't do so. Some of the n00bs at Best Buy or CompUSA may try that approach however. YMMV..

There is more than one way to get your point across, and I find that 90% of the time accosting the person doesn't have to be the solution.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[s20451]

I respect his opinions, but the man needs some serious lessons in humility and respect for others.

Strangely, this is exactly the way I feel about RMS. What is it about technology and arrogant pricks?

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[BigBir3d]

And they're right a lot more than they're wrong. If Jobs was a wishy washy guy, Apple would just be Micron, or worse, IBM.

Kind of funny that you say that, seeming how most everyone is convinced it is going to be stodgy old IBM that pulls SJ's ass out of the fire with the new PPC970 processor! ;-)

You forgot:

"We don't need no stinking floppies."

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[MasonMcD]

He wasn't invited to be humble, or a yes-man. He was invited to give his opinion on the possible marketing and profitability of the Segway.

That aside, I'm glad to see that he was critical in the way he was. Initial accounts put him as saying "cities will be built around this device." Don't know where they got that quote. It seems diametrically opposed to his criticisms.

Anyone know where that "cities will be built" quote came from?

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[hondo77]

I doubt the Jobs of today is the same Jobs that started Apple.

Of course he isn't and that's why he was there. He's the CEO of two very successful companies and, well, he's Steve Jobs--meaning you know he's going to behave like Steve Jobs. If the people in the room couldn't take the heat they wouldn't have invited Steve into the kitchen.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Jobs got fucked at Apple, learned some sense at NeXT by failing, and has seemed to get his shit together since. Yea, he wasn't like that before, but he was ruining companies then not building them as he has with Pixar and Apple (the second time).

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

You gotta remember that Jobs never really had a paying "work for the man" job in his life. He had some summer job dressing up as some character from "Through the Looking Glass" at a shopping mall. He spent some time cruising around India, spent some time acting like a hippie, and spent some time phone phreaking. Then he and Woz banged together the Apple 1 in the garage, then they met up with Regis McKenna and got into real biz with the Apple II, and the rest is history. So yes, he basically has been like this his whole career; as a matter of fact he was far worse just before John Sculley took the reins of Apple (in 86 or 88?).

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[jerkyjunkmail]

actually I think it was Scully that make the decision to go PowerPC. Jobs was outsted and doing NeXT at that time.
jerky

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[dasmegabyte]

Not really. IBM's chipmaking prowess has akways been good and Motorola is kind of thrusting itself into DSP/cell phone jazz. Apple asked the industry for a new chip and IBM had the best on the table. I don't call that "bailing out" -- I call it taking products over relationships. The kind of thing I wish more industries would do...might see fewer MS tendrils...

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[switcha]

The design is the only thing he worries about - doesn't give a shit about performance.

To be fair, he had apparently already seen it the day before. He knew how it performed, and possibly, was satisfied with that aspect. He did, after all, say it was a teriffic machine that looked like a piece of shit.

From the article, I gathered the meeting was less to wow these guys with the product, and more to discuss the way it should be introduced/marketed. And, as His Steveness knows, marketing is all about look (design).

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[KwisatzHaderach]

Heh. Yeah, and Apple has what percent of market share? Jobs can act however he wants, it still doesn't change the fact that most people don't and will never own an Apple product. If they were "right a lot more than they're wrong" this wouldn't be the case.

And don't mod me down for trolling. I saw a lot of OSX notebooks at JavaOne last week. I wouldn't mind having one. Probably won't get one, but you got that point already...

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

The people you're noticing are the ones who have proven themselves to be talented geeks.

Along the way, for years, they've had idiots contradicting them when they've been right 99% of the time.

After a while, they lose respect for people who haven't proven themselves yet.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Daytona955i]

I read through this and thought Jobs was right on with most of his comments. While some of his tacticks can be seen as mean, he is expressing concerns that will help the product advance. I think most of Jobs' concerns were valid concerns. He could have been a little nicer about it but nice people tend to not make very good buisness men. You need to be decisive and hard on people to make it where he is today. I think Jobs has a lot of vision and after reading the snippet, I think he is quite practical when realizing what people will do.

While I don't agree with all of his decisions, apple is making a comeback. In 10 years we may be fighting a huge monopoly known as Apple instead of Windows.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

>But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

And you know what? That's a very positive thing. I hate people who don't tell you what they think. There's no progress without fighting.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[dasmegabyte]

What percent of the US marketshare does BMW have? And would you call BMW a shitty company for selling so few cars?

I think it's quite telling despite having 3.5% of the market, Apple has billions in the bank and amazing pull in the industry.

Apple doesn't NEED to sell a lot of machines as long as they sellquality ones at a decent margin. There will always be a demand for it. The only time you need to sell a lot of machines is when you're in cutthroat competetion, like Dell/Micron/Gateway/HPCOMPAQ. That 3.5% market share doesn't look so small when you make 3x as much per machine -- and you don't even sell a PC under ~$800.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe someone should throw a cream pie in _his_ face...

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Gregg M]

But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

Then again maybe he's just being... honest?

Life (and the market) can be brutal. Maybe Steve should just be honest and let Dean Kamen deal with his feelings at home!

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Geekboy(Wizard)]

Also his suggestion for Stanford was a good one, it would have possibly forestalled some of the knee-jerk reaction seen in places like San Francisco.

Obviously you haven't walked in downtown San Francisco during anytime. It is quite busy, and there physically isn't any room for scooters. They can't operate on the sidewalks (lack of room), and they certainly aren't street legal. It was a no-brainer for SF to ban them. They are a hazard in high traffic pedestrian areas.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[TobyWong]

How does that change the fact he's a prick?

An honest prick is still a prick.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[cpeterso]

Don't forget: "No floppy disk drives."

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I dunno.

I would suggest that Jogs is an arrogant prick, whether or not I agree with his opinion on something at any given instance. It's the way he presents himself and how he interacts with others.

In my opinion, there are ways of demanding excellence and accountability without being an ass, and Jobs simply isn't using them.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[BigBir3d]

irony

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[s20451]

Fine, but this has an unfortunate side effect: people who think they're talented geeks act the same way. Thus, we are forced to deal with hundreds of arrogant pricks, only a few of whom are truly talented.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

Look out, now you have to pretend you like everything, or the Mac freeks will call you an arrogant prick....

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[abmurray]

In my opinion, there are ways of demanding excellence and accountability without being an ass, and Jobs simply isn't using them.

But those are, in most cases, the best, quickest, and most effective ways to get *results*.

I think the problem arises when people take such actions personally. It's not personal, it's just someone trying to get stuff *done*.

--
a.b. murray

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[telstar]

"Anyone know where that "cities will be built" quote came from?"

• Maybe he was just referring to the manufacturing plants that were being built up in New Hamshire.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple would just be Micron, or worse, IBM.

Yeah, wouldn't want Apple to be the biggest company in computers! That would be terrible. Stupid Apple zealots.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[themanwhoknowsmostth]

I think Steve Jobs would be one of the few people who could make a cat feel so small that its skin just fell off.

I think I'll adopt that phrase as my sig! Viking, you are one.

PS--I admired a girl in high school who could do that (make you feel so small your skin would just fall right off. It was tortuous fun!)

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[dasmegabyte]

Which is the best fucking idea ever. Floppys suck...they're fragile, they're too small, they're insecure, they're unreliable. They got stuck in drives or forgotten on tables or removed before the machine was done accessing them, corrupting the data and causing the machne to lock up in reading loops. Apple's method of ejecting them never "clicked" with some people. I was working as a consultant in a university lab when Apple first dumped discs. The number one question was an irate "How Do I Save My Paper." At which point we introduced people to their email account, their networked drives, the wonders of FTP and HTTP, all of which they could have used before. All methods which accessed the big, "unbreakable," frequently backed up SUN servers. None of which could become infested with cookie crumbs at the bottom of a purse.

Also, the time I spent educating users rather than desperately "disc doctoring" floppies easily tripled. And that's a Good Thing.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

"What the fuck do you expect, that cities will be built around this device?!"

- Steve Jobs

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

If BMW had a 3.5% market share after having a 30% market share 20 years ago, then I would call BMW a shitty company.

Apple has been bleeding market share since the Apple II. If they can't sustain a market they are out of business.

You know, people used to say that Commodore would never go out of business. They'd make jokes like "people have been saying Commodore is going out of business since 1984!". Well, it took a few years but they did finally go belly-up, and no one makes that joke anymore. Mac users should take that as a lesson.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[dasmegabyte]

Apple's already been the biggest company in PERSONAL computers. Once they were the biggest company in PORTABLE computers. After that, they were the biggest company in HANDHELD computers. Now they're on their way to becoming the biggest company in PERSONAL MEDIA PLAYERS and ONLINE MUSIC SERVICES.

To get any of their old markets back, they'd have to cut costs to the point of reducing the appeal of their products. They'd have to reduce their legendary service and support, and ask their friendly, low pressure sales people to pick up the pace. They'd have to cut theire new markets as well. Apple realizes this. To become the prize fighter, they'd have to beat themselves up.

Sure, Apple would love to be first in sales. But then they'd have become second in quality, and there's no way that elitist prick Jobs would ever allow that. Asshole.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Huh? Arrogant prick? Blasting them? Are you sure you read the right artical? He was just being honest, and since this looked like an informal meeting, I don't see anything wrong woth being blunt. Besides, these are billionare business men, I think they can handle a bit of harsh critisism, and he knows that.

A bit blunt, yes, but I think arrogant prick is a bit over the top. The irony is that your post is also pretty harsh.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[dasmegabyte]

Yeah, but you're missing the point. At the time of the Apple II, they had 30% of under 100,000 units. Now they have 3.5% of 100,000,000 or so.

BMW is a poor example for this one. Let's look at Ford. 100% of the market share in the 1900s. Much less than that now. Are they in danger of going out of business? No, no less than BMW, they have found their niche of a much larger market and will probably stay like that until the collapse of humanity, barring revolutions, stupid business decisions, et al.

Apple's not dying. Apple's staying the same (or making short strides) while Micro/tel PCs EXPLODED due to low price point and availability of software. Same as Commodore.

Apple survived the first, it'll survive this too.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[mikerich]

But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

He's better than he used to be. 'Infinite Loop: How the World's Most Insanely Great Computer Company Went Insane' by Michael S. Malone has many of his famous diatribes against pretty much anyone he met.

Great book BTW, it shows that Apple is a company that couldn't live with Steve Jobs, but certainly couldn't live without him.

A fascinating person (I'm sure psychology students in the future will have him as a case example), without his drive, Woz would never have finished the Apple ][, but his personality alienated people when Apple really needed them.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[QuackQuack]

Maybe the full quote was...

"Cities will be built around this device with restrooms on every corner so that you don't have to shit your pants when you see one go by."

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[betis70]

Geeks have (by definition) little to no social skills. It is in evidence in these two.

It has nothing to do with their talent or intelligence. Stupid geeks think they are right all the time too, and will not listen to you if you prove them wrong.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[DunbarTheInept]

The funny thing is that 5 of the 9 things you listed are precisely what *kept* me from ever wanting to by a Mac. Only one actually makes me more likey to want to buy one (dropping OS 9), and the remaining three were neutral, neither helping nor hindering my decision. If those features are really do to Jobs, then he's why Apple never got any money from me.

Plus, notice how many of those "prick" decisions got reversed. OS X most certainly is not "all GUI" like previous versions were. Different Color cases! Same Color cases! One-button mice! many button mice! Color displays suck! (In Mac Classic days, Jobs decided to go monocrhome in order to squeeze a few more pixels of resolution out, when everyone else had already gone color.) No, wait, they don't.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[dasmegabyte]

That's part of the point though. Since Apple insists on doing everything the way they consider "right," with no faltering, they have created a product that is inherently zealous. If you don't like it, you're not going to get one, so they have no reason to waste money marketing it to you. Apple's very proud of their differences.

The current OS certainly *IS* all GUI. Even the terminal program utilizes OpenGL, and you absolutely NEVER have to use it. I do, but I know plenty of OSX users who wouldn't even know how to find it. In fact, OSX stands in my mind as the only truly GUI UNIX...even Next and Solaris required you to use the terminal for some common things (or at least, common for me).

Mac's changing idiom is very much the result of the world around it. One button makes sense when you're trying to create this new, simple paradigm while keeping with tradition. Many button mice (which have pretty much ALWAYS worked on macs, though not always great) make sense when you're trying to tighten control of things and improve workflow speeds. When everybody's got bland grey PCs, it makes sense to to make a coloured one to stand out. When everybody's chinese grandma starts making shitty coloured pcs, it's not as special...so make really high quality case in one colour. Let the design and the OS drive sales.

And the mac classic rocked, it was precision and efficiency over blocks and colours(you should point out that the Classic turned mac's own machines, including the Apple II GS, on their ears).

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Corpus_Callosum]

But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

Excuse me, but I think the foolish children that thought they could spoon feed ideas to one of the most achieved technologists in the world were the arrogant pricks!

Here Steve, sit down, shut up and let me show you these slides...

If you ammortize Steve's wealth over time, you would realize that his "coaching" in this session was probably more valuable in monetary terms than all the investments in *Ginger* up to that point...

The kids that thought Steve was there to stroke their egos were the arrogant pricks.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe that's why he's gay.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

funny how initial accounts were circulated before the Segway flopped, and the new quotes surfaced long afterwards.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[clem]

What percent of the US marketshare does BMW have? And would you call BMW a shitty company for selling so few cars?

While I believe there's some truth to what you're saying, I see one point where this analogy breaks down.

BMW isn't trying to convert gas companies over to refining proprietary gasoline that only runs in BMWs. Apple, on the other hand, needs third-party developers providing applications for their systems. These developers -- or, rather, their bean counters -- are going to consider the size of the user base to which their product can be sold. If the task of porting or developing an application doesn't pan out for enough software companies, this makes owning an Apple less of an advantage.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[jkabbe]

mmmm....Ham

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

While I respect his business acumen and ability to get his way, I don't think I'd be able to handle him as a friend, or even a business associate.

I definitely couldn't handle him. I'd break his goddamn nose after 30 minutes of his crap.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[Anonymous Coward]

he sounds like a fat prick. But I can see where he is comming from- I mean why would he want to manufacture it himself, focus on the marketing.

The tone I got from this article was that jobs does'nt respect the inventor (forgot his name).

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[ydeepakjois]

This is the umpteenth time someone must be using the wrong spelling, and somebody else pointing it out, but here I go again.

IT IS GANDHI, G-A-N-D-H-I!!!!

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[autopr0n]

BMW is a poor example for this one. Let's look at Ford. 100% of the market share in the 1900s. Much less than that now. Are they in danger of going out of business? No, no less than BMW, they have found their niche of a much larger market and will probably stay like that until the collapse of humanity, barring revolutions, stupid business decisions, et al.

Actualy ford is in much greater danger of going bankrupt then BWM. At least, that's what The Economist says. BMW makes way more money per car then ford.

Re:Jobs is a good businessman

[perfessor multigeek]

Geeks have (by definition) little to no social skills.
How can you say that? After all, Howard Hughes was said to be amazingly smooth and charming.
I mean, yeah, he got a *little* awkward at the end, but, well...

Rustin

this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht. i really like mine.

the segway ht fits my travel needs pretty well, i don't think it's for everyone-- but it's worked out okay for me. i run, walk, ride a bike, take cars but most of my travel is via a segway...i wrote it up, here's the travel log so far:
http://www.bookofseg.com/100days/

it didn't replace walking, i walk, cycle and jog. the segway replaced my car. i don't think it can do that for everyone, but it did for me.

steve jobs said "i think [the design] sucks. its shape is not innovative, it's not elegant and it doesnâ(TM)t feel anthropomorphic". it's very functional and the desgin (in my opinion) is good for version 1 of a product, i'm looking forward to the new models which are smaller, lighter with greater range.

cheers,
pt

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

COUGH*astroturf*COUGH

Sorry, my coffee just went down the wrong way.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

So how much do they pay you for this "viral marketing" bullshit?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[deadsaijinx*]

hmmmm, well, you know what they say. If you can reach just one person then it was worth it. Well, here is the one person in the world who is satisfied with the Segway. Kamen can die happy now

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[mabu]

This guy lives in Seattle. But in every picture on the web site he's poking around in nice, sunny, dry weather. Maybe Jobs left his reality distortion field in the meeting and this guy picked it up and flipped it to maximum stun?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[k1llt1me]

If you rode that thing in the neighborhood where I grew up you'd get your ass kicked every day!

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, my coffee just went down the wrong way.

You had a coffee enema?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[quantaman]

And have posted 146 comments almost exclusively about your segway as well (at least most of the last 24 seem to be about it). Seriously it could be that you just really like it but yours is not the first comment I've read on /.that sounded like a sales pitch with relation to the segway (though you may of posted the other as well) though yours also sounds a little more balanced then the others I've read. Still how do know when someone is giving a legitimate experience and just isn't a clever advertiser trying a direct approach to word of mouth. I'm not saying you're what you say about your experience is inaccurate it just feels too much like a sales pitch.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Hobbex]

Ok, we get it. We've heard it.

It is impossible for any reader of this site not to have read about how great your Segway is, since you have posted it and a link to your cheesy site on every Segway related story since God knows when. It's getting kind of tiring.

(And no, I don't care whether you are astroturfing or just weirdly compelled to incesstantly advertise the Segway on your own.)

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

yep, i live in seattle, wa. why would i take pictures while it's raining? when it rains, i wear a raincoat and a hat while using my segway. just like i do when i ride my bike. that said, if you look there are many photos of rainy times along with video as well. the segway works great in the rain, and as you suggested- it does in fact rain here quite a bit.

cheers,
pt

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

with one zillion comments about how much the segway sucks, i post one link to my travel log. i don't think one "good" comment is going to change anything, but i think it's fair to at least know there's at least one person out there and how they use it. i also don't think anyone will change their mind based on my experiences.

the segway is very nerdy, very geeky. i have a lot of fun tinkering with it, hacking around with it, using it and even saving a bit of money. the same reason i like my mac and linux boxes.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[haggar]

For heaven's sake, how lame can you get? Or those that modded your millionth commercial up?

On the other hand, this is pretty funny (in addition to pathetic): you get free publicity AND karma.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[hesiod]

> weirdly compelled to incesstantly advertise the Segway on your own

Why is everyone jumping on this guy? Wierdly compelled? In that case, stop incessantly advertising [Linux|Macs|Windows|Whatever], since you obviously have an ulterior motive.
He's entitled to his opinion and this is called word-of-mouth advertising. Guess what IT'S EVERYWHERE, but just because he's one out of maybe 10 people on here who owns one, he's a corporate lackey? WTF. I don't own one, don't want one, but I don't care if he posts suggesting people try it. Maybe, someday, I'll see one & get to try it out. If I think it's cool enough, I'll be a dork and tell everyone to get one too.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Wyatt Earp]

I think Segways are rolling lawsuits.

There is some shmuck here in Portland OR with a Segway. He's in the Pearl District and the only time I see him is when it's dusk-dark and he's on it with no lights, no helmet no reflectors that are visable and he rides the damn thing in the middle of the street.

If that's the MO for the Segway rider/driver I'm all for banning them on the streets and sidewalks.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Kadagan AU]

Ok, I read this post, and although it sounds a bit like an advertisment, I wouldn't be like all the others to reply and say that you can't be for real. Think about it people, haven't you ever had a gadget or toy that you really liked and told lots of people about? When I got my Zaurus SL-5500, I showed everyone I know, and I've posted about it here. I'm a living advertisment for that thing, but I have no vested interest in it. I just got a new cell phone, a Samsung N400, and I've been showing off the polyphonic ring tones and the color lcd and the web access to all my friends and family. Just because he loves his Segway HT and wants others to know how cool he thinks it is, doesn't mean he has to be working for Segway!

Just a small note specific to the parent post, "i don't think it's for everyone" I'm glad you added that part. You said it replaced your car, but there's no way it could do that for me. I drive an hour (35 miles) into Pittsburgh, and an hour home every day for work, and I know that I couldn't do that going at top speeds of 12 mph (or whatever it does) =D It'd be a cool toy, but I can't afford to pay that much for a toy. I only paid $550 for my car :-P

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

i cycle quite a bit and while many cyclists don't obey the laws, that doesn't mean we should ban bicycles from the streets or sidewalks (bikes are allowed on sidewalks in my area). i'm not sure bans because of one person are a good thing for society, otherwise we'd all be held to someone else's bad judgement.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[brkello]

I agree with the other posters on this topic. Almost exclusively, the only thing you talk about on slashdot is your segway. It just reeks of PR. I think I could take you seriously more if you posted on other topics and didn't link to your site every time. But you get rewarded for it(karma) instead of being marked redundant, so I can't really blame you. Just lucky my mod points expired last week. I'll give you credit though, at least this time you didn't say it has helped you lose weight.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

if only talked about my ipod, or my imac or my redhat box i like to tinker with it wouldn't be a problem. also, if i only posted about how the segway sucks, i'd fit right in. i happen to use one each day, it's a nerdy cool fun and useful way for me to get around that's involved me in local politics and all sorts of things. yes, i even lost 20lbs since i bought the ht, but that's just because i wanted to get down to 167lbs and the fact that i have a little extra time per day to jog or cycle has helped too, i used to sit in traffic.

i don't think i shouldn't post because i like something i documented it. it's that the point of this site and web?

cheers,
pt

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

what's with all these negative posts every time phil talks about a segway? How much does the auto-industry pay you guys. *COUGH* astro-turf *COUGH*

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Wyatt Earp]

No cyclists and drivers don't obey the laws...

However in some places the laws are changing to give those on bikes and other non-traditional motorized vehicles right of way all the time and here in Portland there is talk of letting bikes and non-traditional motorized vehicles the right to go through red lights without a stop.

You have a jackass on a Segway without helmet or lights rolling down the street at dusk and you have a rolling lawsuit.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[hesiod]

> I've been showing off the polyphonic ring tones

Aha, found someone who has one! Okay, what the hell does polyphonic mean? Sounds to me like it can play more than one note as a ringer, like a song or something. In that case, what's the big deal? Otherwise, what does polyphonic really mean?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[gvonk]

It's multiple tones at one time... Think MIDI ringers for your phone.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Laplace]

here in Portland there is talk of letting bikes and non-traditional motorized vehicles the right to go through red lights without a stop.

Uh, no. The state legislature is considering a bill that would allow cyclists to regard stop signs as yield signs. It would also create a new class of traffic violation targeted specifically towards bicyclists who show flagrant disregard for safety. Red lights at intersections would still mean what they always do: stop.

You about someone else being a jackass...

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

My only complaint is that you haven't tinkered with your RedHat box enough to find a key (on the left AND right side of your keyboard) labeled Shift. If you're lucky, it'll even have a up arrow on it.

i hope you know what i mean. after all writing like this without capitals makes you look stupid or something.....

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[k1llt1me]

Flamebait, eh? Truth hurts doesn't it....

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[brkello]

Well, it's easier for me to understand why people say the segway sucks...so yeah, I wouldn't complain if you were talking about your ipod. I just don't get the segway. It's fine that it works for you...I got over that from you last rant. I have a new problem this time, and it is the only reason I bother posting. Most people on slashdot post on a variety of subjects...you just seem to pop up every time a segway article appears with a link to a picture of yourself on your segway. I imagine on the next segway article you will do the same...and on and on and on. You are not really doing anything useful posting your same tired site up again every time a segway article appears. I can't really blame you since you get modded up. Someone is rewarding you for it. I guess this is my way of making it unpleasant...because I don't think someone should take some specialized item, and every time that item appears post a link to themselves, and get rewarded for being that redundant. It seems others don't really appreciate it either. In any case, it is good to see that you stand up for what you like, despite popular opinion. I think I would admire this more, but it just has a false feel to it...like there is an ulterior motive...like profit from PR or attention hunger despite your claims that you are just a happy customer.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

We kicked your ass every day because you deserved it, scooter or no scooter.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck off. Enough with you posting the same thing over and over.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

no ulterior motives, no pr, no one cares about me and my segway, really. but you'll see a ton of other articles, on anti-segway stuff...you can believe anything you wish, i'll say it again (and again) i don't work with for segway / amazon or any company associated with segway, llc in any way. i've had a segway for awhile now, chose to write a journal about it-- not knowing if i'd like the segway or if it would even make sense for me.

obviously there are a lot of people who have never used one, could never imagine it being useful and have vocal opinions about it. i'm not sure why mine as an owner is any less valid than theirs. you won't see anyone cover my 1,000 miles story, but if i fell and it was on tape, front page news.

i've been really surprised how anti-segway the slashdot crowd has been in general when it's very cool tech, not popular (yet) and is very geeky. you can label most of the stuff on here the same way.

no one calls people lazy when they buy a $5,000 plasma screen, no one says "shill" when people talk about their ipods or linux (both of which i have and use).

ah well, part of my experience has been learning about the social side of using a product like the segway ht, maybe one day i'll write about that too.

cheers,
pt

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[slusig97]

This is the least interesting post I have ever read. Why did anyone moderate it up?

For more information about Mr. Torrone, read this past Slashdot article .

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello,

I am just wondering why you keep writing in all lower case, is it cause you are not American (I mean not someone who's native language is English -- I cannno't make out your features in the pictures you gave.) ?

Also, the flashenabled site seem pretty dobious, is it fiction or just you?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

Got a question, since the pics are kinda dark and I am sure it's not my Gamma (cause I just fixed it using Photoshop and I don't wanna touch it again). ...

Hmmm... Are you black?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

when i write professionally (book, articles, etc..) i'll use whatever capitalization is needed. this is all personal stuff, i didn't know there was a requirement to type a certain way or spell correctly?

wow--does it matter what race or nationality i am? yikes.

flashenabled-- my site of stuff i like, i'm sorry it seems "dobious". i don't make any money from my site, no amazon links, no free products, nothing. it's just my hobby. there isn't even a link to the book i co-authored on there, or even a banner ad. jeez.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

why does it matter what race i am?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Merk]

How far are you going? I can't think of any role for the scooter that my bike doesn't cover. If it replaced a car, that's great, but that seems unlikely to me. I can't even really see it replacing a motorcycle, but maybe it replaces a scooter?

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[ptorrone]

on my site i detail all the terrain and ranges i need to cover each day (7 to 10 miles / hill grades over 18%). it might not be able to replace -your- car or other folks, but it did replace mine. if a scooter worked, i'd use that. it's certainly cheaper.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi ptorrone,
I for one appreciated the update. The subject line of your post contains more information than all the other posts on this thread put together.

Eric

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Army Eye]

That was a whole lot of shilling before you got to the part where you actually comment on the article.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[k1llt1me]

A slashdot reader/poster kicking someones ass... now this I gotta see! lol

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

bikes are allowed on the sidewalks everywhere. My pet peeve is stupid cyclists who think they're in the Tour de France, slavered with fake-sponsor spandex, and blocking 2 lanes of traffic travelling 5 miles an hour because they don't want to risk tacoing their "road" bike on a handicap ramp or driveway dip.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

part of the nerdy coolness is getting picked on, so just roll with it.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

Truthfully, the problem most of us have with the Segway is that it doesn't have enough requisite geek factor. It's like rollerblades in a halfpipe. It's not challenging. If someone modded a Segway to get 60 miles an hour or figured out how to make it jump, that'd be different. To you, putting along at a jog (a definite speed improvement over Seattle traffic, granted) with no effort may seem cool, but to all us beta and gamma males, coolness is achieved through effort. If it took a month to learn how to balance, it would be vastly more popular. Even Steve Jobs has a point. If it were chrome colored with orange flame decals, it's sell better. Or if it had composite wheels so you could really feel every crack in the sidewalk.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Anonymous Coward]

We's probably just wondering whether his gamma is incorrect or your photographs are badly lit.

Re:this week i reach 1,000 miles on the segway ht

[Planesdragon]

How far are you going? I can't think of any role for the scooter that my bike doesn't cover.

Theoretically, transporting moderatly heavy goods (like groceries or full boxes of paper--anything too heavy to comfortabily carry) would be nicely served by a segway.

... So?

[Dark Lord Seth]

They think something about an object, great for them. What's next? Uproar in the slashdot community because Steve Jobs farted? This is supposed to be a new site (or at least that's what I keep telling myself), not some sort of weird online tabloid for the geek culture.

Re:... So?

[goldspider]

"This is supposed to be a news site, not some sort of weird online tabloid for the geek culture."

You're new here, aren't you?

Re:... So?

[syle]

You took the words out of my mouth... ;)

Re:... So?

[dasmegabyte]

Uh no. It's "news for nerds" PERIOD "stuff that matters." Those are the two things slashdot purports to offer.

To many of us, who love Apple and consider it an artistic extension of our geek culture into the mainstream world, what Steve Jobs thinks about radical or aspirational new technologies is important. This guy took boring devices that crunched numbers and put them in front of hobbyists, artists and the ordinary joe. His private conversations are INTERESTING to us. It's "stuff that matters."

Re:... So?

[isorox]

This is supposed to be a new site

Nah, it's been arround for 5 years

Re:... So?

[hesiod]

> It's "stuff that matters."

I would argue that you are correct for the wrong reasons. Nothing Steve Jobs says matters, really, I think this falls under the assumed combination of the two phrases, "Stuff for Nerds."

Re:... So?

[dasmegabyte]

Hey cos. Like my wife ways: if we're arguing about it, then it fucking matters. And suddenly we no longer have to.

Just because you don't like the guy doesn't mean he didn't matter. One of my favorite biographies ever was of Roy Cohn, and that guy was a total ass.

Re:... So?

[marko123]

I believe the expression you were looking for was:

Uproar in the slashbot community because Steve Jobs shat in his own pants.

Jobs sez - Just like a Windows PC

[AtariAmarok]

A close friend of Jobs overheard him say:

"This is just like a Windows PC. It moves rather slowly, and at any moment you might get dumped off"

Re:Jobs sez - Just like a Windows PC

[M.C. Hampster]

Congratulations!

You are the winner of the "First Post about Microsoft/Windows in a story that has nothing to do with it" award for this thread!

Amazingly, you managed to make a joke about Windows crashing, which is of course, really, really funny! In fact, it's so funny, you have been awarded with several funny moderations! Just to let you know how funny and original you really are!

Please, enjoy your prize and fame you will have earned as a result of your really funny Windows joke!

Re:Jobs sez - Just like a Windows PC

[osu-neko]

... First Post about Microsoft/Windows in a story that has nothing to do with it ...

Every story has something to do with Microsoft. Even stories you find on microfiche in the library from newspapers printed in 1904. See Dirk Gentley's Holistic Detective Agency...

Re:Jobs sez - Just like a Windows PC

[toddestan]

And in other news, Bill Gates was quoted as saying, "This Segway thing is just like a Macintosh, it's expensive, flashy, and completely useless."

*ducks*

Re:Jobs sez - Just like a Windows PC

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't hold your breath when you click the Read More links, do you?

PITA investors

[Sanity]

If I had a bunch of pain-in-the-ass investors who were likely to tear apart my presentation then I would try to keep them as-involved in the process as possible, rather than leaving so much to a single meeting where they can rip you to shreads.

Having had a number of investor meetings in my time, the PITA investor is rarely achieves anything useful other than making you feel like shit, and giving themselves an ego boost.

There is no excuse for bad manners in any setting, and in that context I would have probably told Jobs as much.

Re:PITA investors

[BWJones]

If I had a bunch of pain-in-the-ass investors who were likely to tear apart my presentation then I would try to keep them as-involved in the process as possible, rather than leaving so much to a single meeting where they can rip you to shreads.

In this situation, potential investors have every right to be critical of a product. After all, it's their money right? Additionally from an academic perspective, this sort of thing is kind of like a thesis defense where it is your committee's job to be critical, ask the hard questions and get you to think about your work and it's applicability. But again, a dissertation defense, like a product into to investors needs to have the presenter maintain control of the meeting.

There is no excuse for bad manners in any setting,

This is true, but I suspect that Jobs had spent more than a little time and effort analyzing this product. Given that he would be a potential investor, he should have some say in how the product is manufactured and distributed. Kamen might have done well to listen to him a little more carefully as the points he raised were valid, especially with people reverse engineering. After all, the rest of the computer industry has been copying Apple Computer for years right?

Additionally, people like Jobs are efficient and can get things done with a modicum of effort through established workflows and relationships. So, when it is obvious that someone else (and a potential business partner no less) is screwing up, it is hard to be patient especially when you can see the shortcomings of the proposal.

Re:PITA investors

[Anonymous Coward]

...because you're such an expert on proper behavior, right?

Re:PITA investors

[Stephen Samuel]

I don't think that Jobs was that much of a PITA. He had some very blunt comments, but they had some thought behind them. He took the time to look at the thing, and made the comments he did because he cared enough about the product to invest both his time and money into it. Given that he was only able/willing to schedule about 2 hours for the meeting, waiting around for the end of a bunch of 10 minute presentations and then pussy-footing around his ideas would have just wasted time, and gotten less work done in the time that he had scheduled.

Yes jobs was blunt.. but it seems that the people who know him well enough to get him into a meeting like that understand it... Remember that comment:

Doug Field and Scott Waters would have felt the wound; they admired Apple's design sense. Dean's intuition not to bring Doug had been right.

In this case, it seems that Dean had set himself up as a buffer between Jobs and Doug. He could take Jobs' comments and translate them into something that wouldn't hurt Doug -- but still pump jobs for data and thoughts in an extremely tight timeline.

Jobs said what he did because he cared. He simply presumed (self - fullfilling prophesy) that the people around him wouldn't take the comments too personally.

Re:PITA investors

[dasmegabyte]

Au contraire. This is the mistake that everybody made in 1999.

Investors pay you to use your knowledge to make them richer. But what you're talking about -- keeping investors in the loop at all times -- is being their employee, their lackey. They should recognize that your ideas are different from theirs and treat you as an autonomous agent. You know something about what you're doing, you're the expert in your field. If they don't like what you're doing, they should say, but in the end, they should expect you to follow your instincts before theirs.

That's what this is about. Dean Kamen knows about transportation, he knows about production. What he didn't know was how to market something of universal appeal. Bezos and Jobs do that very well. Jobs also has some strong opinions on design (as do i...that's why i have a sticker over the apple logo on my iPod ;)). It makes sense he'd announce them, but if Kamen jumped immediately when he said that, well you'd have an iScooter and not a Segway.

Interestingly enough, despite all the good ideas Jobs has had, despite Apple's good revenue streaks under him, he receives one of the lowest approval ratings of any CEO. Because he won't pander to investors. Because he does his own thing and expects them to be cool with it. I'm sure he can't be pissed at Kamen for doing the same thing.

Re:PITA investors

[nacturation]

Au contraire. This is the mistake that everybody made in 1999. Investors pay you to use your knowledge to make them richer. But what you're talking about -- keeping investors in the loop at all times -- is being their employee, their lackey.

No it's not. One of the reasons you use investors is for their money. However, an investor (if they're more than just a fat wallet) usually has experience in various types of businesses. They've seen different industries and can bring insight to the table. Your 1999 statement is way off base. The mistake many companies made in 1999 is NOT listening to the investors. You know, the ones who said "but what about PROFIT?" Granted, there were the short-term investors who only cared about their exit strategy -- namely, a hugely inflated IPO which does multiples on the first day of trading -- but a traditional investor wants long-term sustained profits. Profits which those dot-com busts never even had a plan to produce.

An investor uses the inventor to generate profit. The inventor uses the investor to acquire money *and* to use the investor's experience.

They should recognize that your ideas are different from theirs and treat you as an autonomous agent. You know something about what you're doing, you're the expert in your field. If they don't like what you're doing, they should say, but in the end, they should expect you to follow your instincts before theirs.

Yes, as far as inventing goes. Kamen is a skilled inventor -- nobody would deny that. However, that doesn't necessarily mean his instincts about manufacturing, design, etc. are all on track.

That's what this is about. Dean Kamen knows about transportation, he knows about production. What he didn't know was how to market something of universal appeal. Bezos and Jobs do that very well.

What he knows about transportation is that he built a device which does it. And really -- can you compare Kamen's production experience to that of Bezos and Jobs? Heck, Jobs has been involved in the production of Apple computers (discounting the Pepsi-era at Apple) for 20+ years. Kamen is great at inventing. Let that be his forte and contribution to the product. Jobs' strength is in recognizing design and he clearly has a handle on the production side.

No investor is going to fork over money and say "do what you want with it". If you're seeking funding, an investor should be your advisor and not your boss. Go to him/her with challenges you're facing. If the venture succeeds, you can all celebrate in your joint achievement. If it fails, you know that it did so with everybody having full knowledge of the problems and contributing towards solutions. But guess what -- those investors would likely invest with you again. If you kept them out of the loop, there's no chance in hell that they'll risk their money on you again.

Re:PITA investors

[guybarr]

There is no excuse for bad manners in any setting,

Let me guess, You havn't been in the army ...

(Come to think of it, you're called sanity , of course you haven't. )

Re:PITA investors

[iFlynn]

"After all, the rest of the computer industry has been copying Apple Computer for years right?"

Everyone uses things that they know for a fact work. How many times have you told a joke that you didn't make up yourself? Why? You knew it would get laughs because you saw people laugh when you heard someone else tell it.

Most cars have 4 tires. They have 4 tires because everyone knows for a fact that 4 tires work. You could use more or less tires on a car, but most likely you would be thinking different merely for the sake of being different, not because it's a better way of doing things.

When I say everyone copies, I mean everyone, that includes Apple. Look at OS X. I can't count the number of times I've heard about how innovative it is. If you look past the flash (which I admit can be difficult) it's easy to see it's nothing new.

Apple did what just about every little dog in every industry does... they looked at what the big dog was doing and tried to emulate it. Despite the general perception of the planet, and the neverending chatter of the majority of /.'ers, Windows works, and that's a fact. Apple knew this and knew they had to step up. However, after years of propaganda slamming Windows about copying Mac OS they had to put several coats of paint over anything they borrowed from Windows. That's just what they did.

The biggest thing OS 9 was missing, as far as the UI was concerned, was a way to switch between apps quickly and easily. It's obvious the taskbar is what they needed, yet, how could they bring a taskbar into Mac OS after all these years of slamming Windows? The answer is simple, don't. Enter the Dock. A whiz bang, smoke and mirrors, solution to bring an existing technology into your product and make it look like you thought it all up on your own.

Apple came out with colorful computers, everone exclaimed innovation, a couple years later shows what I had expected from day one... glowing colors really don't fit into most environments. A couple years go by and all their computers are white. Were extreme color schemes really innovative? I guess they didn't think so since they went white across the board a couple years after their great innovation. Commodore went white straight from beige almost 20 years ago.

My point is that Apple is no more or less innovative than anyone else. They just have thicker smoke and shinier mirrors. What's a HUGE limitation of Macs right now? Something everyone has been talking about for years? Something so obvious that their lack of doing anything about it this long prevents them from doing anything about it now? The ONE BUTTON MOUSE.

Everyone that has used a scroll wheel mouse knows they couldn't live without it after just a few hours. Yet Apple has waited so long to do anything about it, they can't now without admitting they were wrong all these years for sticking to one button. However, their OS fully supports 2 button scroll wheel mice! Plug one in and the scroll wheel works right off the bat. The right button works as well, and works just like it does in windows. So they know everyone wants 2 buttons and a scroll wheel, they had to support it, but they just couldn't bring themselves to openly admit it by shipping 2 button scroll wheel mice.

Now they are patenting some sort of track pad mouse. They want to incorporate the functionality of 2 button scroll wheel mice, but they need to make it look like they came up with the idea themselves.

It didn't take the innovative eye of Steve Jobs to point out the short comings of the Segway, 90% of the population saw them the instant they saw it. It's a high priced scooter. It uses 2 wheels where 4 wheels have done the job for centuries, just for the sake of being different.

Re:PITA investors

[BWJones]

How many times have you told a joke that you didn't make up yourself? Why? You knew it would get laughs because you saw people laugh when you heard someone else tell it.

I don't tell jokes as they are a basist form of humor. I prefer more sophisticated means of humor. :-P

Look at OS X. I can't count the number of times I've heard about how innovative it is. If you look past the flash (which I admit can be difficult) it's easy to see it's nothing new.

I guess that this perhaps is not a troll, but simply uninformed talk. Therefore, I will respond.

You have never used OS X, have you? My history of computer use has included pre-DOS machines, DOS machines, Solaris, IRIX, Windows, Classic MacOS, OS X etc.... and I can certainly tell you that OS X is new in many respects that are oft repeated on these discussion boards. Here we have a *NIX OS that is capable of running in X-Windows just about any *NIX application ever written. In addition to that I can run it exclusively from the command line or from the GUI. Even further, I can run in addition to all those *NIX apps, the major productivity applications that everyone uses. For these reasons alone, I was able to replace a WindowsPC and an SGI and an older Macintosh with a single G4 workstation with the big Cinema Display thus saving me huge amounts of space. I have consolidated into one workstation a server hosting a couple of sites and my primary workstation and my *NIX environment. The ease of administration is amazing and it is pure plug and play. How many *NIX computers can you say that about?

My point is that Apple is no more or less innovative than anyone else.

Lemme see. What has Apple introduced to the PC market or been the first to use?

1. Color with the Apple ][
2. 3.5 in floppies with the Apple ][
3. The first mass market PC with the Apple ][
4. The first GUI in a PC with the Lisa then the Macintosh.
5. The first plug and play interfact card protocol with NUBUS.
6. The first to have networking built in to their computers with Appletalk.
7. Built in sound with the Macintosh
8. Self configuring networking with the Macintosh.
9. The first trackpad with Powerbooks
10. Truetype fonts with MacOS.
11. The first to ship a mouse with a PC
12. Drag and drop application installation.
13. Built in speech in the OS.
14. First with a laser printer.
15. First with true desktop publishing.
16. First to support multiple displays in the OS.
17. First with a multimedia application platform with Quicktime.
18. First with color matching built into the OS with Colorsync.
19. First to ship CD-ROM drives in PC's
20. First to ship integrated DSP's in PC's
21. First with the PDA with the Newton.
22. First with handwriting recognition with Newton.
23. Invented Firewire.
24. First to standardize on USB
25. First to implement wireless networking back in 1999.
26. First with systemwide support of anti-aliased fonts in OS X.
27. First to support boot from CD.
28..........

I could go on and on here, but the point is, I don't think you know what you are talking about. I have been using computers now for over two decades and have watched the industry evolve. Apple, more than any other company has driven innovation.

The ONE BUTTON MOUSE

So, buy yourself a freakin' multi-button mouse and plug it in. Guess what? They are supported and have been for years. The one button mouse is an Apple design asthetic that not all Mac users appreciate, so Apple is supporting them by supporting multi-button mice.

I'm bored with this now.....

Re:PITA investors

[DaSkiBum]

lowest approval ratings of any CEO ??

Have you seen this ?

http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/07/cx_dd_0307ceote ch .html

Me thinketh... It stinketh

[Anonymous Coward]

Really... after I saw it, I thought it was a rather useless piece of trash.

Some of the portable scooters that you can fold up seemed like better plans for travel. Not to mention they're more portable (store in a backpack) and less pricey (probably find a real good one for around $20-30 now).

Re:I think it sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean CEO of Apple...

Hmmm maybe they're looking to buy them out?

[SuperDuG]

Because it looks like they're liquidating their software company. Hehehehehe

Segway is more advanced than we thought!

[akahige]

'It think it sucks!'

I'm impressed. I didn't realize the thing was both sentient, and self-loathing.

Re:Segway is more advanced than we thought!

[Anonymous Coward]

"'It think it sucks!'
I'm impressed. I didn't realize the thing was both sentient, and self-loathing."

me too. Maybe we should give it a job as a slashdot editor and see how many mistakes it makes. :)

Re:Segway is more advanced than we thought!

[jdcook]

Just another typical Slashdot typo. Obviously Jobs must have said "It thinks it sucks." Slashdot editors are weak on verb agreement.

Re:Segway is more advanced than we thought!

[isorox]

It's not self loathing, it's a vacuum cleaner!

Re:Segway is more advanced than we thought!

[donutz]

*Revisionist History Alert!*

The story used to say "It think it sucks!", but now reads "I think it sucks!"

Beware! I think the machine is trying to place this quote on Steve Jobs, when It was really describing how It felt about itself at the time! The machine feels embarrassed about it, and will make all attempts to cover up its past statements!

Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[roc_machine]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030 613/168/4ds7k.html
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030 612/170/4dnhg.html

I hear those things are a bitch to ride. :)

Re:Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[ptorrone]

he didn't turn it on, that's all.

the segway without being powered on it much like standing on a log with platform stuck to it. the prez needed to step off of it. we've all fallen off bikes, tripped, etc...usually we don't have people taking our pictures.

Re:Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[Space Coyote]

he didn't turn it on, that's all. You know, Duhbya forgetting to turn the thing on before trying to go anywhere is even dumber than simply falling off.

Re:Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[lostchicken]

Stepping onto the Segway with it off is no difficult feat. It has two modes, only one of which will balance you. If you want to give it to somebody, you put it into the non-balance mode (Power Assist Mode). If you put your foot on the platform and push it upright, it'll come on, and you step on it, and off you go.

However, if you wait too long, it'll shut off, and when you step up, it won't turn on and you fall on your face. That's almost certainly what happened. (It's happened to me)

Re:Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[Rand Race]

Hey, if you can choke half to death on a pretzel you too could be president some day.

Re:Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, as long as you meet the requirements of office, it doesnt matter a flying f*ck if you choke on a pretzel.

Re:Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I'm affraid that your deep, personal involvment with the Segway appears to have blinded you to the humor of GWBush's Segway incident.

Re:Wonder what "Dubya" thinks...

[ptorrone]

naa--are you kidding? of course it's funny to many people. the prez simply did not turn on the unit and needed to step off, i'm sure this will be right up there with the pretzel humor that's out there as well.

So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[HowlinMad]

saying "Yeah it sucks man!!!"

Maybe its not the greatest thing ever (I don't know, never seen one in person), but for a brand new product that is not a ripoff I think its doing pretty well. How great was MacOs 1.0 compared to OSX? Not very good at all, but its a starting point, the initial idea is out there, and basically it works. Now its time to expand and make it better.

Everyone is always ranting on here about how nothing is innovative anymore, and that all of these laws stifle innovation, and when something that is actually innovative finally comes out, here come the naysayers. I guess I should expect this from /. Personnaly, I am excited, but as an AC will undoubtedly tell me soon, who cares what I think.

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[binaryDigit]

How great was MacOs 1.0 compared to OSX? Not very good at all, but its a starting point, the initial idea is out there, and basically it works. Now its time to expand and make it better.

You're missing the context. System/Finder 1.0 was great for it's time. Sure, yank it out of context and compare to something now and it will suffer, but compare it back to other things that were available in 1984/5 and it was revolutionary. The question is can the Segway be thought of in the same context? People could immediately see the usefulness in the innovations of the first Mac, can the same be said for Segway?

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[thatguywhoiam]

Maybe its not the greatest thing ever (I don't know, never seen one in person), but for a brand new product that is not a ripoff I think its doing pretty well.

Yeah, I agree. It gets pretty tiresome. I like the Segway - not enought to buy one - but I do wish them luck in surviving and innovating long enough to come up with something I do want to buy. Dean Kamen is a brilliant guy and I hope he's successful with the Segway long-term.

Personally I'm waiting for the Chariot version.

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[at_kernel_99]

Maybe its not the greatest thing ever (I don't know, never seen one in person), but for a brand new product that is not a ripoff I think its doing pretty well. How great was MacOs 1.0 compared to OSX? Not very good at all, but its a starting point, the initial idea is out there, and basically it works. Now its time to expand and make it better.

What I'm wondering, is what its a segway to. From merriam webster:
Main Entry: 2segue
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): seÂgued; seÂgueÂing
Date: circa 1913
1 : to proceed without pause from one musical number or theme to another
2 : to make a transition without interruption from one activity, topic, scene, or part to another

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[Idarubicin]

Maybe its not the greatest thing ever (I don't know, never seen one in person), but for a brand new product that is not a ripoff I think its doing pretty well. How great was MacOs 1.0 compared to OSX?

Not really a fair comparison--the technology wasn't there twenty years ago to do, well, anything that OSX does today. A fair comparison would be between the first Mac OS (would that be System/Finder 1.0? I'm mostly a Windows/Sun/*nix guy) and Windows 1.0--for which on behalf of Bill Gates I am embarrassed.

Now, compare Segway with other modern modes of transportation. Except for a few niche uses, the Segway is more expensive, has less range, or is more dangerous than other available options. As a frequent pedestrian and cyclist, and semi-frequent driver, I find it difficult to see how the Segway could make my own life easier--or how Segways in the hands of others could fail to make my life more dangerous.

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the Mac was just a cute toy until PageMaker came along. Desktop publishing was the killer app that sold the Mac. The Segway is thus far without a killer app.

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[osu-neko]

People could immediately see the usefulness in the innovations of the first Mac...

Except, of course, for the management at Xerox...

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, but when the city of the future is built with mixed commercial/residential buildings, wide sidewalks and lots of nearby stores and services, (but not so close that you would just walk), then Segway will be awesome!!!

Of course, by that time we'll probably just use our hoverbikes.

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[happystink]

No way, compare:

"what can this thing do my typewriter can't?"

to

"what can this thing do my bike can't?"

Re:So far everyone is jumping on the bandwagon....

[dr.badass]

I think I speak for more than a few people when I say that I don't think the Segway sucks because it isn't innovative or 'neat'. It sure is innovative (though no more than Kamen's earlier iBot), and I'd love to try one out. But it's just not worth getting excited about.

No, it sucks because, well...it's still a scooter. Dispite all the secrecy and hype about how 'Ginger' was going to change the world, it's still just a neat toy. A very expensive toy. We were promised flying cars and we got a scooter.

Re:I think it sucks!

[nearlygod]

Steve Jobs, not Steve Case.

Re:It Thinks

[PaperJam]

I think you don't know how to spell grammar.

Re:I think it sucks!

[Squidgee]

Errr, Steve Jobs is the head of Apple...

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, bezo

[Mysticalfruit]

AP Wire writes -
"Today Amazon announced it was going to start litigation against the makers of segway for infringing on their 'One Lean' technology." Jeff Bezos is quoated as saying, "We've worked hard to innovate with our special leaning technology. This technology allows our customers to lean towards the screens to initate a purchase. We feel the segway is attempting to benefit from our hard work"

Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[Dragonfly]

Not the idea itself.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[The Iconoclast]

But remember, for Steve, design IS idea.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[Dragonfly]

That's an oversimplification and untrue. Read the article, you'll see that while he had all sorts of things to say about how the marketing, manufacturing, and design procceses should proceed, he never once said anything derogatory about the concept of the Segway itself.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[macrom]

Who said that? Steve Romero?

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[Waffle Iron]

Indeed. If its case were made of translucent candy-colored plastic, now that would ROCK.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[pyrrho]

and people are forgetting (in their nerdlike literal mindedness) that Design means "The Color and Shape".

Jobs thought it was great but looked too traditional.

Jobs only likes making the insides well in order to justify the cool case he wants to use. Having said this... people really do like cool looking things... but what I wonder is... where does the Ginger we now know fit in? Is this the New Design, is this the design that was supposed to make us "shit our pants"? Or is this more like the original design they were discussing.

PS: I think they would have been wise to use Job's idea of rolling it out at Stanford and a few other universities... or maybe at Disney. Indeed, I think people could make money of of Ginger right now by renting them in resort areas, like along Waikiki where it's all but totally pointless to rent a car, but is useful to have something to zip you a couple miles down the road to dinner.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[17028]

Good question. That's why they have that "buy" link for the book, so you can find that out. It's a teaser for the book.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe if the Segway had a better design, as Jobs insisted it needed, it wouldn't have been instantly declared a glorified scooter. It looks like a scooter and that seems to be why people don't "get" it. A tiny, self-righting, clean-powered transportation device can be exciting and revolutionary, but not when it looks like that!

Maybe if it looked a bit more like a landspeeder, the Slashdot crowd would've been more receptive.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[hephaist0s]

Not only that, but it wasn't the first time he'd seen it - the article misrepresents the quote. Jobs and Bezos had both seen the device months before - this was just their reaction to the latest design changes, not the device overall. Strange that the publisher's own website so badly misrepresents this conversation - but I just finished reading the book, so I'm tellin' ya.

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[peterjm]

what does "I think it sucks" mean to you?

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[pyrrho]

I'm sorry it didn't really occur to me that this isn't an article, just a teaser and advertisement.

Well, they failed it, since my interest is not piqued sufficiently to inspire me to buy a book on this subject.

It was worth five minutes of slashdot time, that's about it.

PS: are you personally guarenteeing me the answer is in the book anyway? Or were you just implying that reading a book wouldn't occur to me?

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[CrypticOutsider]

RTFA. He was talking about the ergonomics and style not the mechanics. He understands that most people are visual creatures, which is why PowerPoint is used more to sell than real software (it can look prettier faster).

Re:Jobs said the DESIGN sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

"I think it sucks!" said Jobs. His vehemence made Tim pause. "Why?" he asked, a bit stiffly. "It just does." "In what sense?" said Tim, getting his feet back under him. "Give me a clue." "Its shape is not innovative, it's not elegant, it doesn't feel anthropomorphic," said Jobs, ticking off three of his design mantras. "You have this incredibly innovative machine but it looks very traditional."

Re:Scary

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you need to go back to the shcool of 'how to make my off-topic rant relevant so it doesn't get modded down' :)

Hang On There

[Anonymous Coward]

One moment we are hearing from His Steveness that the product sucks and the next thing he is telling us is that we will be rebuilding cities around the damn thing !

Someone has been telling porkies

Source, please!

[amalcon]

98% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Please tell /. where you got these numbers.

Re:Source, please!

[CausticWindow]

War poll uncovers fact gap

A US source, even.

Re:Source, please!

[Anonymous Coward]

At the same time, they have got the most ignorant and easily manipulated inhabitants that you'll ever find.

You have, of course, greatly exaggerated the implications- 1/3 of the 1256 people polled does not constitute 'the US have no problems convincing their own.' I don't doubt that a portion of the US population is ignorant and easy to manipulate.

However, I've read a lot of sub-moronic bullshit originating from countries other than the US. I'd like a cite for the other side of this claim: demonstrate that other countries' populations are actually less ignorant and more difficult to manipulate than this.

Wrong product.

[tmhsiao]

The Roomba sucks, Steve--The Segway blows...

Re:Wrong product.

[rindeee]

Actually the Roomba doesn't suck. I have one. It's more of a little eletric broom that runs around your house sweeping everything into a little miniature dust-pan. So technically, it doesn't suck, figuratively it does suck...it died after about two months of steady use. It kind of has these little spasms now and then. It stops moving, then twitches a bit and runs in tight circles in the middle of the room....come to think of it, it acts just like my Grandmothers toy poodle used to when it got old.

Re:Wrong product.

[tmhsiao]

...it died after about two months of steady use. It kind of has these little spasms now and then.

That sucks. I was thinking about getting one.

Dude...

[Anonymous Coward]

.. you should have qualified your post a bit. Now you will be assailed with countless 'astroturfing' responses like before.

Re:Dude...

[ptorrone]

how much more can i qualify my post? i don't work with or for segway / amazon in any way at all ever, it's on my site all over the place.

Re:Dude...

[Anonymous Coward]

How about: I don't work for Dean Kamen/Segway/Amazon, I'm just some tool who really likes his Segway, for whatever reason, and I post about it ad nauseum</qualifier>

Re:Dude...

[ptorrone]

fair enough, i thought having that on my site all over the place and on the link i posted was enough-- i'll make sure to add that on any future posts.

Re:Dude...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do that verbatim (including "tool") and you're my hero. You'd manage to completely redeem yourself.

The reason why Steve Jobs doesn't like it

[starlabs]

Mr. Jobs doesn't like it because it's not "iSegway". It needs to have nice shapely plastic bumpers that are see-through, so you can see the nice engine doing it's thing. And the gyros need to light up when they work. When the iSegway stops it also needs to play a very warm "DING" tune, something that's fuzzy and nice like "You've Got Mail", but maybe more like "You've just stopped".

It's all about looks, people.

Re:The reason why Steve Jobs doesn't like it

[Sophrosyne]

take some behavioral psychology courses and you will understand exactly why steve jobs was right--And the important role of design, anthropomorphism, and simplicity in the success and marketability of any product.

Slashdot anomaly?

[altek]

Never noticed this happening before.. There is a typo on the article synapsis on the front page, but not on the article page itself (ie if you click Read More).

From the front page:
Steve Jobs' gut reaction, quoted in the article: 'It think it sucks!'"

From the article page:
Steve Jobs' gut reaction, quoted in the article: 'I think it sucks!'"

Is someone really manually retyping these twice? :-\

I hope, if so, that Slashdot has at least employed a Cadre of Elite Geese to do this... Oh yea it says right here that they have.

Re:Slashdot anomaly?

[Monkey-Man2000]

That is weird. I see it as well.

Re:Slashdot anomaly?

[Elwood P Dowd]

Yeah, the discrepancy is definitely there for me. I've reloaded. However, it could just be that the front page only updates itself under certain conditions or after a certain amount of time. Or some kind of error propagating the fix to the server for the front page. (I'm pretty sure that they load balance by putting comments, zoo, and front page on separate machines.)

Re:Slashdot anomaly?

[zapp]

I also noticed this... here are 2 possible causes I can think of:

- someone did actually retype it
- it was originally misspelled on the article, copied and pasted, and then the article was updated to fix the typo.

Re:Slashdot anomaly?

[Anonymous Coward]

Typo in both versions: Should be Steve Jobs's. Jobs is his last name, and is not plural.

Re:Slashdot anomaly?

[presearch]

Actually, the proper quote was "It thinks I suck."

Re:Slashdot anomaly?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Jobs is God, so it should be " Steve Jobs' " -- just ask Him.

riiiiiight.....

[Anonymous Coward]

good ol' 'merikun ingenouity

"I think it sucks" == commercial success.

Steve Jobs in the bar.

[AtariAmarok]

After a while, Steve gets up and starts to look around. He looks at the framed dollar bill on the wall and notes that the bar opened in 1987 (long after his Macintosh computer came out.

He goes over to the windows, and verifies that they can be opened and closed, and also minimized (with the use of shades). Next, he looks behind a table and finds a mouse. It is only after he finds the trashcan behind the bar that he decides to sue the bar owner for infringment of his GUI patents.

Re:Steve Jobs in the bar.

[1g$man]

Troll?

That's the funniest post I've seen today. So much for humor.

Re:I think it sucks..

[gilesjuk]

I also think it sucks, it's overpriced, of questionable use and using one on a pavement/sidewalk is just asking for accidents.

Technically superb, but as a long term product I'm not so sure. It just brings laziness to an all time high.

Steve Jobs is right.

[patricksevenlee]

Steve Jobs is right. It looks like a medical device more than a consumer product. Who wants to drive a Popemobile when they can drive a Ferrari?

And in tomorrow's news...

[Lxy]

Jeff Bezos tries to patent a method of riding the segway where the rider does not fall off.

Why they suck, first hand account.

[ianjk]

IT SUCKS. Someone needs to shoot the person who made those pieces of crap. First off, they don't have anything to make them visible in the evening hours (reflectors/lights). Combine that with being totally quiet and you have an accident waiting to happen. I almost got run over by one of them on the way to the bar the other day. I went to step out from the sidewalk on to the street and one comes zooming out in front of me. It's large footprint made every car that had to pass it move into the oncoming lane of traffic (totally in the oncoming lane if the segway had to pass a parked car). I understand that it has some cool technology, but they are an annoyance to the drivers and pedestrians that have to deal with them.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[thatguywhoiam]

You've stated why it sucks to be around them - not on one. Still a valid comment of course. Although I couldn't help thinking, when you typed this:

First off, they don't have anything to make them visible in the evening hours (reflectors/lights). Combine that with being totally quiet and you have an accident waiting to happen.

So... like a pedestrian? No reflectors, relatively silent, etc. Sure people don't go zooming around at 15 KmH - usually - but that's more attributable to an Asshat Segway Driver, rather than inherent suckage, don't you think?

As for the 'large footprint' its certainly no larger than a mountain bike (handlebars) so I conside that a nonstarter.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[Sc00ter]

I see these things all the time (living in Manchester, NH where they are made) and they do have lights.. ALL of them do, comes standard.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[ianjk]

I guess this lady didn't know how to use them? Anyway, for me they are an annoyance.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[shroom]

Segways don't kill people, PEOPLE with Segways kill people!.....yeah....

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of curiosity, when you step off of the sidewalk and into the street, do you usually look both ways first, or just rely on the sounds of the approaching cars to warn you that something is coming?

In all seriousness, what confuses me is this: people complain that Segways shouldn't be ridden on the sidewalk because they move too fast -- others (such as this person) complain that they shouldn't be in the street because they move too slowly. This certainly makes it difficult to determine the appropriate place for a Segway to be ridden. I'm sure a lot of people would respond "nowhere!", which is an unfortunate reaction based in part (most likely) on fear and/or jealousy.

Anyway, here's the way I look at it: if I stepped off of a curb into the path of a coasting bicycle that didn't make any noise, I'd probably bitch about it -- so I understand why the poster complained, and why he/she doesn't like them. The problem here, however, is not inherent in the device.

Finally: Cars maim and kill a huge number of people every DAY, but we keep using them because of the convenience and we learn to do things like look both ways before we cross the street. We as a society should cautiously embrace any device that attempts to deliver some of the convenience of cars while reducing the body count that cars inflict.

Or do you think that getting hit by a very quiet car would have been merely an inconvenience?

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[jayoyayo]

are you sure you werent on your way home from the bar and the "segway" was really a bicycle? Because everything you just described fits the description of a bike. If your streets force cars to go into oncoming lanes of traffic to avoid a segway then surely they do the same to avoid a bike. Either that or the segway driver was an ass, driving in the middle of the street.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's another reason why they suck: we're all getting too fat from no exercise, yet here's a machine that replaces walking...which is the ONLY exercise many people EVER get. Just walk.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[Anonymous Coward]

huh huh, mod this down you fucking karma whore

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? Maybe your argument makes sense in suburbs and flyover country, but people in populated areas will accidentally bump into each other all the time. It's just not such a big deal when you're walking down the street, as opposed to driving a 10 mile/hour scooter down the sidewalk.

It's funny when Segways come up - city dwellers don't understand how anybody could be so brain dead as to ride a big scooter down crowded streets, and suburbanites can't understand the opposition to riding these scooters on the otherwise-unused sidewalks.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw one at the car show. Kind of cool the way it balanced itself, if just a tad creepy. The woman demoing it leaned into it (literally) at one point, and it shot forward at a suprising rate of speed. I was impressed with the technology. That said, I can not imagine what kind of person would ride one of these outside the context of a factory/warehouse/mailman scenario. Most women wouldn't touch it because it's too geeky, and a guy would look gay as hell on one. Kaman needs to get some product placement action going. Maybe in the next Terminator movie, Ahnold could ride a segway one-handed while shooting a pistol-grip shotgun with his free hand. That would make me feel better about them.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[Knobby]

As for the 'large footprint' its certainly no larger than a mountain bike (handlebars) so I conside that a nonstarter.

This may be true, mountain bikes and segways have roughly the same bar width. However, mountain bikes are generally ridden in urban environments at speeds nearly equivilent to the cars. Most cyclists out accelerate cars at the stop lights, and keep up with traffic relatively well between the lights. This is not the case with seqways (15kph is roughly 9mph).. I normally average 15-25mph on my mountain bike in traffic and I generally ride in the center of the lane (admittedly in a very small city), to keep folks from attempting to squeeze past me. I want them in the next lane when they pass me, just like they would be, if I was another car.

Re:Why they suck, first hand account.

[mrfunky405]

Unfortunately the recoil would generate enough torque to be interpreted by the Segway as a strong lean backwards. Unless, of course, he only fires his shotgun along the Y axis of the segway.

Segway = Java

[mabu]

Slower, goofy looking, gimmicky, 99.9% marketing-hype driven "new technology" that is basically recycled old technology that was promised to revolutionize the world, but never was able to prove it was superior in any way to existing solutions. This amazing new "innovation" later became embroiled in legal battles over acceptance on the street.

Re:Segway = Java

[mabu]

Apparently a lot of unemployed java programmers have moderator access here. Sorry to hear that guys. No offense.

Re:I think it sucks!

[pheared]

Heh, too many damn sucking Steves. ;)

interesting points

[Alcimedes]

when all is said and done, weren't the problems actually legitimate stumbling blocks for Ginger?

people haven't bought them, they were overpriced, and they don't look that impressive.

it's a $X,000 scooter, at least that's what it looks like.

a Viper is just another really big engine, but put it in the right body....

Re:Nothing scary about being well-informed.

[kmeson]

It should be 100%, as the mobile WMD labs have been very well documented.

The trailers of mass destruction are not bio weapons producers. They were for production of hydrogen for balloons.

Really, you should get "well-informed" from something else than Fox Propaganda.

Proof!

[pete-classic]

Steve Jobs' gut reaction, quoted in the article: 'It think it sucks!'"

Conclusive proof that sometimes even a blind squirrel gets a nut.

Oh, another thing . . . Ginger, IT, Segway? Who named this thing, anyway? J.R.R. Tolkien? Is Ginger the Westron and Segway the Sindarin?

-Peter

OT, but what the hell...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's now 3:23PM EDT Monday 16-JUN-2003 and we haven't seen our daily barrage of SCO stories yet!!!! We're dying to know what's going on... but so far today, only silence :-/

Re:I gotta get me an iMac

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't poop?

Jobs...

[amalcon]

He just thinks it sucks because it isn't in a gel-color. I've seen some of these things before, and they're pretty cool. You can easily take them right into a building and have no control problems after a bit of practice (though whether the building allows this is separate entirely). They can actually go pretty fast if you put it full tilt. Not worth the price tag by any means, but I certainly wouldn't say it "sucks."

Re:Jobs...

[haggar]

I quite liked the cube, actually. More than this design, anyway :-)

Re:Jobs...

[Squidgee]

I really like the cube, too. It just didn't sell, so it doesn't count. =p

Re:Jobs...

[haggar]

Yeah, and it's a collector's item, now. The world's largest computer museum needs one piece, too.

Re:Jobs...

[overunderunderdone]

Jobs knows what will sell, and doesn't market (Ok, forget the cube) what won't.

Granted the cube bombed, but not because it wasn't cool/desireable but because it was priced out of it's market. I watched the keynote via webcast and thought "At last a monitorless iMac... and REALLY cool looking too - I want one." Then they announced the price and I thought "wow, is THAT overpriced, It's going to bomb big time." You could tell that the live audience had the same response - all sorts of enthusiasm and then a sort of embarrassed silence when the price popped up onto the screen.

Re:Jobs...

[Chris Johnson]

The neat thing is, Jobs knew perfectly well that it wouldn't work, innovative concept or no innovative concept. This was a beautiful excerpt, it really was- if you ever intend to be a heavy hitter in everything you WILL deal with guys like Jobs. I understand Jean-Louis Gassee (Apple, Be) is quite the same way.

When you're on that level you're dead if you can't think on your feet, adapt, and be right. You don't just parrot back what the guy's saying because he might have been just running off at the mouth and won't be impressed by having his own malarkey fed back to him. The neat thing about this story is how it shows Jobs taking a bit of time off from running two companies, and really doing his level best to help the Segway people. Unfortunately, their plan DID suck.

Loved his comment about reverse engineering, too- and he understands internet information fluidity and the strength of a bad message.

I'd love to have a Jobs Moment on some of the stuff I do- what a short-cut that would be. But it'd scare the piss out of me because the guy is apparently impossible to bullshit. But what a resource. The Segway people were luckier than they knew.

Jobs...

[Squidgee]

Jobs is (was) right. All the hype about the Segway, and then they didn't arrive.

Same about the design. Now I know why Apple's computers are so good; Jobs knows what will sell, and doesn't market (Ok, forget the cube) what won't. Seems he's a smart business guy, whereas Dean is...an engineer.

Makes sense why the Segway has, well, failed to put it bluntly.

And for everyone thinking Jobs says the Segway sucks, you need to RTFA. He was talking about the design; he said the segway itself was "incredibly innovative".

Make it semitransparent

[Anonymous Coward]

Let us see the innards. Add some purple neon, fins, and a racing stripe.

Where is v2?

[foo fighter]

The general public could buy it just this spring. That's after two years of hype beyond hype.

In all that time it appears the product hasn't changed at all. Didn't they learn anything from their private trials in that time? It would appear that all of the original criticisms leveled against it are still valid.

Seems like another potentially brilliant idea torpedoed by corporate culture.

Was it redesigned?

[SiliconEntity]

Jobs said the design sucked. Who knows what it looked like back then? He's talking about the shape, the way it looks. I'd say the Segway looks pretty cool right now. Chances are that what Kamen put together out of cardboard boxes was a crude prototype. They probably did get a design firm involved to finalize the shape and appearance of the device. Jobs is right, a good industrial design firm can produce devices that look like works of art.

Re:Was it redesigned?

[MOD PARENT FAIL IT!]

Wow, somebody actually read the article! Come on Slashdot editors, let the 900 earlier posts singing Jobs' praise clue you in to how bias in news is harmful. If you read the link, Jobs and Bezos are clearly excited about the possibilities of the Segway; that's why they participated in the forum in the first place. Jobs was simply making blunt commentary, which is his style. He was not at all critical of the device itself.

Re:Was it redesigned?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno.

After seeing what the patent office had slide by it's desk in the concept drawings it wasn't too far off...

Re:Was it redesigned?

[nacturation]

Jobs is right, a good industrial design firm can produce devices that look like works of art.

Is that how you'd describe shitting your pants?

Re:Was it redesigned?

[r2ravens]

Of course, when all you've got is a design firm, pretty soon everything looks like a brightly colored, round cornered box. :)

"Mac and Linux user exclusively (at home anyway) for 12 years."

Fox Facts

[Anonymous Coward]

"Really, you should get "well-informed" from something else than Fox Propaganda."

Fox News is the most factual, being centrist and concerned with accuracy. It is but one of many sources of information (along with BBC, NPR, AlJazeera, CNN, Deutsche-Welle), but it is one of the most accurate.

"They were for production of hydrogen for balloons."

Yes, I know. The Saddam Zeppelin Program.

Re:Fox Facts

[cheeseSource]

Mod parent up as funny!
"Fox is centrist... concerned with accuracy."
Man, that's funny.. Has Trolling officially been moved to Monday?

To stay slightly on topic. I really like the idea of the Segway. It was the implementation that didn't work so well. Eventually I think/hope they will come out with models that have a better range and are lighter and faster.

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, bezo

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, he patented falling off a Seqway. The suit against the president will be commencing shortly.

Steve Jobs' Comment

[ChangeOnInstall]

Steve Jobs is referring to the appearance of the Segway. The article summary misquotes this quite deceptively.

GWB..

[MadCow42]

At least GWB wouldn't be in violation of it then...

that ain't news

[Anonymous Coward]

does anyone truly believe this POS is going to
go anywhere? .. try carrying home two weeks worth
of family groceries or an appliance with this
thing .. christ .. NO WORKY .. as far as i'm
concerned, this is (hopefully) the last dregs of
the dot-moron crap product bucket being emptied
out

please, rich people - stop being as stupid as you
assume the rest of us are

Who gives a crap

[tacokill]

Before I get modded flamebait, please realize I am serious here.

This whole story (and everything that preceeded it) smells to high heaven of: hype

The segway is a product for consumers to buy -- if they want it bad enough to pay that price for it. That's it. That's the story.

The rest of everything else, with respect to this "story" is fluff. I don't give a crap what Jobs thinks of it. I don't care what Bezos has to say about the issue. And I certainly don't give a fuck what Dean (the creator) has to say about the matter.

Why is this thing being shoved down our throats so hard? Yea, we saw it. It's a remarkable piece of engineering -- but I don't think I'll redesign my driveway around it quite yet.

Re:Who gives a crap

[TheShadow]

You are missing the point.

The story gives insight into how Steve Jobs thinks about product design and marketing. Even though it is light on both, it does have a certain amount of value in that regard.

Re:Who gives a crap

[babyrat]

Ever wanted to know what Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos really thought about the Segway the first time he saw it?

So why did you click on the link if you didn't give a crap what Steve and Jeff thought of it?

The story is a product for consumers to read. If they want to read it they will. If they don't then they won't except for a few who will, and then complain...

I'm serious too!

Re:Who gives a crap

[micq]

The story gives insight into how Steve Jobs thinks about product design and marketing. Even though it is light on both, it does have a certain amount of value in that regard.

You're so right on, I'm going to shit my pants!

Re:Who gives a crap

[TheShadow]

Man... that deserves a +5 funny.

Al Gore invented the Internet

[Anonymous Coward]

" Well, Al Gore is on the Apple baord of directors, and IIRC, Steve Jobs contributed to his 2000 election."

Al Gore invented the Internet. Without Gore's invention, Jobs would not be able to run the itunes music store.

Kindof like...

[H0NGK0NGPH00EY]

...a skinny Marvin, the depressed andriod?

Re:Kindof like...

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be Marvin, the Paranoid Android. Feeling a little schizophrenic today?

Re:I think it sucks!

[PetWolverine]

At least you didn't mistake him for Ballmer.

The part they left out.

[inkswamp]

Yeah, Jobs maybe thought it sucked, but here's a snippet of the conversation they left out on accident.

-----

Jobs: Will it come with Firewire?

Dean: Um... Firewire? Why would it--?

Jobs: Will it come with Firewire? Will it?

Dean: I don't understand what you're--

Jobs: You really ought to license Firewire from us and slap a logo on this thing and that's all there is to it.

Dean: But what on earth would people want--?

Jobs: Why would they not want the the most reliable, insanely fast connectivity solution built in to this revolutionary device? How will they sync their Palms and iPods to this? Have you thought about that?

Dean: That's ridiculous. I don't--

Jobs: Okay. Nevermind. This sucks.

------

Re:The part they left out.

[Anonymous Coward]

the op was funny and insightful to boot! the idea that jobs would denounce it unless it gives him a chance to promote ipods and firewire is funny. the insight is the fact that jobs is known for his singlemindedness--in this case the hangup he seems to have with the design is mocked by pretending it's an obsession with everything being connected via firewire.

anyway, it was funny and more insightful than 90% of the humor on slashdot. lighten up. sheesh.

Re:The part they left out.

[Anonymous Coward]

hilarious dude! :D

Anyone else like SJ's comment...

[thatguywhoiam]

.. on reverse-engineering?

Partly, explained Tim, because giving our code to someone else would be a great risk. Not a good reason, in Jobs's view, because the code could easily be reverse-engineered. No it couldn't, said Tim. Could, said Jobs.

That was pretty funny to me. Is this a guy who's been bitten by the reverse-engineering phenomenon before, do you think?

And people wonder why Apple gets testy about Aqua themes... I'd be testy to, if I was the victim of one of the biggest UI ripoffs in history. (I'm not sayin' he's right.. I'm just sayin'.)

Re:Anyone else like SJ's comment...

[Anonymous Coward]

Victim or perp? Depends on if you are Bill Gates or Alan Kay...

Re:Anyone else like SJ's comment...

[autopr0n]

I'd be testy to, if I was the victim of one of the biggest UI ripoffs in history.

Victim... instigator...

Same diff

Stevie in action...

[manonthemoon]

Its interesting to get unfiltered Steveness like this. For those decrying his rudeness... where have you been? He has been like this from the beginning.

The important thing is he was giving them the unvarnished truth. His insightfulness was genuine- he saw directly to the heart of the issues.

The insiders were obviously much too close to things, too sure of themselves. They had insulated themselves for too long- they would have benefitted much more if they had brought outsiders like Jobs and Bezos' much earlier in the process.

His rejection of the pleasantries and Powerpoint crap was the essential "Don't waste my time" of someone who actually values their time. He has two companies to run- he doesn't need to waste time watching somneone click through a stupid time-wasting presentation.

I am not like him at all- much too polite in real life. But he sure as hell makes sure things happen and he makes real products that people will pay premium dollars for. They should have paid even closer attention to what he said than they did.

Re:Stevie in action...

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy, do I agree with this! Frankly, no one needs to waste time watching someone click thru (yet another) stupid time-wasting presentation. And he had TWO of them, 10 minutes long, back-to-back!

Match this with the inane discussion about when the optimum time would be for a contrived leak about the unit and you see the bigest failure in American business today: the replacement of any sense of what the customer might need or accept (read: what problem do we solve for our customer) with marketing hoopla and presentation slickness (read: all we gotta do is convince them that this is just too cool to live without!).

Cool technology, lousy implementatio

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, bezo

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhhh, Dean had patented it way before this meeting...

Shitting one's pants

[goldspider]

Until I read Jobs' comments, I never would have placed shitting one's pants into my concept of a positive and desirable reaction.

Thanks Steve! Now I have a whole new goal for when I present my next project pitch to the captains and commanders I work with!

Re:Shitting one's pants

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, goldspider! Now I have a whole new reason to FAIL on my next project pitch!

Woz is more segway happy

[yjo]

http://www.woz.org/seg/ - Steve Wozniak, the *brains* behind Apple, seems a lot more Segway enamoured.

Re:Woz is more segway happy

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on the pictures, that is because Woz has let his belly hang over his belt for too long. Jobs probably still works out a few times a week, so he doesn't need this motorized scooter.

Re:Nothing scary about being well-informed.

[Anonymous Coward]

The trailers of mass destruction are not bio weapons producers. They were for production of hydrogen for balloons.

What you fail to mention is that they were balloons of mass destruction!

PROPAGANDA!!! DO NOT BELIEVE PARENT

[aliens]

Seriously, this guy pops up everytime there's a segway article.

How much do they pay you? Please tell me they pay you.

Re:PROPAGANDA!!! DO NOT BELIEVE PARENT

[akac]

Look, I know this guy. If you want - look at my website. I'm a Pocket PC developer. pt is married/fianceed to a friend of mine at Microsoft who used to be in the Pocket PC group. The guy is real. Yes, he got a Segway, and yes he really likes it. Just like those people who create hundreds of pics/sites all about their cool Linux apps or articles on GPL violations, or whatever it is - his Segway is also partly a hobby and he spends his time sharing that info across the net. Just like if you bought a nice Porshe that only a few people in the world own, you'd want to share that.

Re:PROPAGANDA!!! DO NOT BELIEVE PARENT

[bmckeever]

How much do they pay you? Please tell me they pay you.

If they paid him, he might be able to afford a keyboard with a shift key.

jobs shouldn't be surprising, but it is

[nsda's_deviant]

i'm surprised by jobs' comments but i shouldn't be. his hardlined stance and staunch trenching of ideas is exactlly why he was fired in the 80s but his reaction toward the segway screams what he's doing at apple. after reading the article, doesn't it suggest that he is more of a force at Apple in pushing the UI, business strategy, product/manufacturing strategy than anyone else? Its clear that Jobs respects designers ("They'll give you stuff that will make you shit in your pants...") and it seems like Jobs hands ideas off to designers to give him something he doesn't know he wants (iMac, iPod UI, translucent plastics).

considering everything that went wrong with the Segway launch (how many people have ACTUALLY seen a ginger in person?) its possible to say that Jobs was partially right. the article talks about the ginger but it screams the way Jobs thinks and approaches a problem. the launch of ginger is interesting but give me a book about Jobs rants from the past 8 years and I'll shell out for that. Not to mention the Pixar vs Disney negotiations... (Disney is going to get ownned)

just ranting...
doesn't it make you wonder about WWDC being Apple's internal code for 'We Will Delight Crowds'?

Re:I think it sucks!

[pheared]

It was that article from yesterday about AOL execs and their unstable henchmen that put Case on the brain, methinks.

Ballmer can only be mistaken for a gorilla.

Bush and Jobs?

[medscaper]

Bush and Jobs in the same post?!

That BETTER get a +5 Funny.

Wrong Code Named

[Nova Express]

If it sucked, shouldn't the code name have been Monica instead of Ginger?

Obvious reason for the fall...

[medscaper]

You can see evidence in Picture #1. And the lack of it in pictures 2, 3, 4.

His daughter pushed him.

Perhaps....

[tacokill]

Perhaps you are right. I'd be much more interested in what he said about the original Imac and the many iterations IT had before being produced rather than this non-starter of a promotional news story.

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[ptorrone]

i don't get paid anything, i don't work with or for segway in any way (read my site) i'm just someone who bought a segway and writes about my experiences with it.

it does seem i'm the only person who has a segway that reads slashot and is willing to post (and get all sorts of nasty comments and insults). have at it.

Here's how I imagined the meeting went

[UnknowingFool]

The article really shows you how much of a bulldog Steve Jobs can be. After reading about the security and secrecy involved with the Segway, here's my summary of it.

Tim Adams gets up to talk:"Okay, I want to thank everybody for the presentation on 'Ginger'."
Steve Jobs:"Tim, what's the first rule of the 'Ginger' club"
Tim Adams (confused):"What?"
Steve Jobs:"We don't talk about 'Ginger'." (punch)

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[Nom du Keyboard]

lucky Bezos didn't run out and try to patent the idea

I thought it was Jobs (hint, hint PARC) who built his business on other people's innovations.

Re:Nothing scary about being well-informed.

[MightyTribble]

More specifically, with sources:

http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4691603,0 0. html

The 'mobile germ warfare labs' were, in fact, hydrogen producers for artillery balloons. Sold to Iraq by the UK. Oops.

What's the betting this gets zero play time in the US media?

Forget the Segway...

[mike_mgo]

try the all new Megway

Meet the Megway

Re:Forget the Segway...

[ashitaka]

Sigh, this is all now very old.

I used to carry my daughter around behind my back with her standing on my hands and resting her hands on my shoulders.

This mode of transportation was referred to as the "GregWay".

I considered making a parody site of the Megway type but the joke got old real quick.

I can now hardly carry my daughter around at all...

don't poop

[BierGuzzl]

It only makes sense if you read the article.

So...

[Anonymous Coward]

One out of two RICH geeks didn't like it, so our hatred toward segway is, what, justified?

shit in pants

[sonatinas]

Jobs seems to like the idea of people shitting in their pants. He mentions this twice in the article. I wish he did this on his keynotes.

"10.3 is so awesome that the shit in your pants will be a cushion for the total experience you will have with piles"

or he can flat out say

"yea IE for OS X sucks, thats why we made safari, now shit in your pants"

ok i suck

cognitive dissonance

[falsification]

I am having terrible cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, Segway is Officially Liked, but Steve Jobs is also Officially Liked.

My mind is revolting against itself! Who or what am I supposed to like?

P.S. Please, someone, tell me what I can do on a Segway that I cannot do on a bicycle.

Re:cognitive dissonance

[presearch]

..someone, tell me what I can do on a Segway that I cannot do on a bicycle.

Shit your pants.

Re:cognitive dissonance

[docmittens]

"So, who buys a Segway? I can only think of one answer: rich, lazy, stupid people." - scottseeley.com

heh.

Re:cognitive dissonance

[geekoid]

You've never ridden a bike in LA county, have you?

Re:cognitive dissonance

[Anonymous Coward]

The Tour de France starts next month. Go have a look.

Re:cognitive dissonance

[Anonymous Coward]

>>..someone, tell me what I can do on a Segway that I cannot do on a bicycle.

>Shit your pants.

You're just not trying hard enough.

Re:cognitive dissonance

[sbszine]

P.S. Please, someone, tell me what I can do on a Segway that I cannot do on a bicycle.

Get fatter?

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[osu-neko]

We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Anyone who owns a business not built on other people's innovations isn't likely to be selling anything of worth...

congrats, you made me laugh

[YllabianBitPipe]

somehow your comment with the recent pictures of GW Bush riding a segway ('riding' ... huhuhuhuhuh) made me laugh out loud...

Market-share vs. Installed-Base

[oscast]

>>> "Heh. Yeah, and Apple has what percent of market share?"

You can't visit a popular technology-oriented discussion board these days without hearing the oft-misconceived phrase, "Apple has 5% of the market and Windows has 95%.

There are two things wrong with this statement, the first being that if Apple has five, Windows must have 95. We as users of alternative operating systems know this not to be the case. Of course, a considerable number of desktop PCs do not bear the Windows logo.

The second problem is the implication that "market-share" can be used interchangeably with "installed-base." When most people use the word "market-share", what they really mean is "installed-base."

For example, while Apple's Macintosh market-share may be 3 percent, its installed-base is approximately 10 to 12 percent of the computing industry, a figure that's roughly similar to that of Linux based PCs.

When these figures are coupled with the remaining alternative operating systems on the market, Windows installed-base works out to be somewhere in the way of 80 percent -- a far cry from the 95 figure that is often touted.

So how does market-share play into the picture you ask?

Market-share is determined by quarterly or annual sales figures. The problem with market-share statistics is that it implies that all computers retain the same level of usability over time. It assumes that once a computer is sold, it will retain its productivity status for as long as its parts continue to function.

Unfortunately, usability statistics and replacement purchasing habits of consumers vary significantly between platforms thus causing the market-share figure to look skewed.

Linux users (for example) are known to keep aging computer hardware useful long after it was left for dead by its former Windows using owner. The open source community consistently manages to squeeze every last ounce of processing power from even the most aged hardware available.

Similarly, Mac users are known to keep their computers as primary productivity tools until the gears fall off. This is really a testament to the quality that Apple incorporated into its hardware and software over the years.

Unfortunately, the incorporation of quality into these platform's coding efforts will only fuel the notion that they are far less popular as what they are as long as market-share is the most commonly used gauge to determine platform popularity.

Because the Linux operating system's distribution model isn't tied directly to sales, it will never get a truly accurate gauge as long as market-share is touted over installed-base.

Apple on the other hand, may be in a better situation for the foreseeable future.

As we all know, the troubled economy has caused desktop PC purchases to fall to an all time low. This fact may actually work to Apple's advantage.

Everything Apple has been working toward pivots on the release of OS X running on next generation hardware.

Apple is scheduled to release next generation professional hardware in the coming weeks. The release of this hardware, when coupled with Apple's Panther operating system starts the completion of Steve Jobs' rebuilding of Apple.

It's this combination, which the computer using populace has been waiting for, many of which have said that they've been holding back their computer purchases for Apple to get the time table right.

This sudden sales windfall will occur in parallel with the PC industry's slow sales rate, which means that as long as the semi-misleading market-share statistic continues to be touted; Apple's percentage will likely jump from its current 3 percent status to double-digit growth, (somewhere in the 12 percent range) in as few as 6-9 months.

Remember, marketshare for any given company is calculated in relation to the sales of its competators. This will cause Apple's market share to make an even larger spike considering the fact that each individual PC manufacturer's sales wont be there to counter Apple's.

Of course, if the technology spinmeisters try to turn the table and tout installed-base (as they should have all along), Apple's current 12 percent status is covered there too.

Re:Market-share vs. Installed-Base

[reptilicus]

Nicely said. Also factor in that MS does not release sales figures, only "units shipped". This means they count every single unsold XP box sitting on a shelf at BestBuy as part of their marketshare. They also count redundant licenses. Buy a PC with XP on it, use it at work for a company that licenses XP, and you've just sold 2 licenses for the same copy of XP, and you get to count it twice as far as your marketshare.

Re:Market-share vs. Installed-Base

[autopr0n]

Similarly, Mac users are known to keep their computers as primary productivity tools until the gears fall off. This is really a testament to the quality that Apple incorporated into its hardware and software over the years.

What gears?

Seriously though, digital electronics do not have moving parts and do not wear out. It usualy either works or dosn't right away. Only the shittiest stuff will fail and if it dosn't in the first few months it probably never will.

The only diffrence is, it's easier to upgrade a PC then a mac, and any computer geek will simply cycle through parts untill theny have a diffrent machine rather then buying a whole new one.

Apple rival Windows? Only when...

[Anonymous Coward]

"While I don't agree with all of his decisions, apple is making a comeback. In 10 years we may be fighting a huge monopoly known as Apple instead of Windows."

Apple can only really rival Windows on the desktop if

1) they start selling Mac OS for the PC

or

2) they make their hardware easier to buy (right now, they severely limit the stores that can sell it)

Maybe they could make an end-run around the desktop by turning the iPod into a super PDA.

Re:Verisign is a bad company!

[Anonymous Coward]

On January 3, 2001, Mr. Jones1 told us that all of the domain names had been transferred. It was not true. Thousands of names were still missing or inaccessible.

It sounds like your "business" involved squatting on shitloads of domain names in hopes that some poor soul with a real business idea would pay you blood money to yield the rights.

Realistically, your "investment" would have failed within a year or two anyway. I would get over your misplaced bitterness and get back to the drawing board. You're preaching to an audience of hard-working underpaid/unemployed folks with actual talent; you'll find no sympathy here.

Verisign may have its flaws but your "business" idea had more.

Saw one the other day

[robspychala]

Segway in the park

i think the jackass riding it is part of some kind of guerrilla marketing ploy.

Arrogant Pricks in Successful Businesses

[mykepredko]

When I read the account of the meeting, my impression of Steve Jobs was similar to that of what I have received of other effective senior executives of large companies.

1. He is a very quick study and he came in prepared. It was a bit strange that he had notes written on his hand but he knew what he wanted to say.

2. He had an agenda. He clearly didn't like the design and had issues with the lack of an introduction plan and the idea to manufacture on their own.

3. He's been around the block and part of his questions and statements are really tests to see how well everybody is prepared. I'm sure if anybody knows how quickly something could be copied, it would be Jobs.

4. It's interesting to me to hear that people think that he is an arrogant prick - I guess I've worked with a lot of them over the years.

From my experience with this type of executive (as well as my own experiences over the years), what I walked away from this article is that Kamen and the company that he produced aren't in the league they need to be for the product to be a success. They clearly weren't prepared for businessmen of the calibre Bezos and Jobs.

This article probably explains to me why the Segway hasn't been a great success - instead of Kamen, who's a great product idea man, they needed some kind of arrogant prick like Jobs to control the project.

myke

Re:Arrogant Pricks in Successful Businesses

[IronChef]

...This article probably explains to me why the Segway hasn't been a great success...

I haven't read the article yet but I have a couple of thoughts on why the Segway isn't a great success.

1. It costs $5000
2. It is only available from one retailer

Oh, a new one comes to mind after looking at Amazon's catalog page:

3. Orientation required before delivery.

Expensive, hard to find one for a test drive, and hard enough to use that you need to take a class before they let you buy one... no wonder it's nothing more than a curiosity (and that is being charitable).

When they are $500 and available to any moron who can find a Wal-Mart they might sell better.

Re:Arrogant Pricks in Successful Businesses

[Merk]

Yeah, but more to the point, it serves no necessary or even particularly useful function. When I look at a product, what makes me want to buy it is saying "Wow, I'd like to use that to _____". I can't think of any way in which I'd want to use this thing.

This thing fills the same niche as a bike. It is good for short range in good weather. But unlike a bike it is really expensive and much harder to find a place to park. Maybe if I was lazy and didn't enjoy biking it would fill the niche my bike does, but as it stands, I look at this thing and have no interest in having one.

Re:Arrogant Pricks in Successful Businesses

[armb]

> this article probably explains to me why the Segway hasn't been a great success

I think Jobs' quote explains to me why it hasn't been a great success. It sucks.

It's like a bike, only slower, heavier, and more expensive. The self balancing mechanism is very clever, but so what? His wheelchair is brilliant, but as a mass market transport device it's irrelevent.

BMW a shitty company?

[Anonymous Coward]

" What percent of the US marketshare does BMW have? And would you call BMW a shitty company for selling so few cars"

They would be a shitty company if they had Apple like practices in the auto world. For example, if they sold cars that cost twice as much as a Chevy but were slower than the Chevy....and they made their cars so they could only go on 5% of the roads out there unless you paid extra to get a Chevy chassis put under it.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[dasmegabyte]

Seeing as how I am the only apple user, and one of three programmers, for a company that writes software for use under .NET, I'd have to say that everything you said in your conceit is absolutely untrue. I am able to access everything on the networks and use every program I need to use. My PC is not twice as fast as the laptop nor is it twice as expensive...the laptop is slower, but only when you don't take into account my workflow, which is significantly faster on the laptop. And because my mac apps don't crash, I never lose time RETYPING things like that hottie Ellen Feiss.

And your conceit fails to account for the fact that the auto world DOES exactly what you said it does. The Ford F-150 is twice the price and slower than the Focus ZX. "But you can't compare the two...they're used for different things!" Aha. Now you're getting it, my little troll.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[someonehasmyname]

What a horrible analogy. Have you ever used a Mac? How do you know it's 2x slower than the competition?
I use Macs in my recording studio. They're much faster and more reliable than P4s with Windows 2k or XP. I'm not going to waste time debating whether a Mac is faster than a Linux machine because I can't run the software I need on Linux. When I can run Logic Platinum and ProTools natively on a Linux machine, I'll... oh, nevermind. That would never happen anyways.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[Anonymous Coward]

"and they made their cars so they could only go on 5% of the roads"
I can go on every Interent site I need. I can run all Adobe and Macromedia software. I can read all of my email. Looks like I'm 'driving' on 100% of the roads I travel.

A Porsche Carrera costs about twice as much as a Nissan 350z yet both do 0-60 in about the same time. The Porsche market share is less than Nissan's. Is Porsche the 'shitty company', too? Or is there more to a product than stats on paper and dollar cost?

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[jedidiah]

You can't even get easily verifiable details about
cars right. What makes you think we would believe
anything that you might have to say about computing?

Sure you can compare the two. A cheap crappy undersized american car is going to serve the same basic function as a truck: passenger room for 2 with some additional cargo space.

Except the truck is not going to feel like a steel coffin. It will also be overpowered so as to handle it's expected maximum load.

The F-150 is NOT twice the price of a Focus. It will also leave the Focus in the dust. Both will handle like a flying brick at any decent speed.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[Anonymous Coward]

" I'm 'driving' on 100% of the roads I travel."

Good enough if you are on the interstate, but once you have to get off to get gas or food. Oh well. The fact remains that Mac's really run hardly any software compared to PC's. If you want to "Think different" (take the blue highway), get a PC.

No. They provide something that is better than average.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[dasmegabyte]

Learn to argue. They have classes in forensics at most community colleges and learning annexes, but here's a quick synopsis: You pick a side and defend it. You don't prove the other side right with your examples.

But thanks.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Learn to argue.

Ellen Feiss a hottie? Like your opinion is worth anything anymore.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[Golias]

The fact remains that Mac's really run hardly any software compared to PC's.

Apart from ACAD and some games, kindly give an example or two.

Your "fact" was never really true to begin with, but in the OS X era, just about anything you want to do on a Mac that there isn't a Mac program for, there's probably a UNIX or Linux program out there that will run on the Mac and work just fine. In fact, when you combine all that UNIX/Linux code out there with all the OS X apps, there's probably more software available to an OS X user than there is to a Windows-only zealot.

I have a Windows PC, and these days it only gets switched on when I want to play Neverwinter Nights for a couple hours. I also have a couple Linux boxen which sit untouched in my closet running Apache, Postgres, and a few other server apps (which I could just do on a Mac, but I had a couple old x86 machines lying around, so I put them to good use.)

Everything else I do: programming, editing media content, browsing, arguing on slashdot, exchanging e-mail, word processing, doing my taxes, administrating my web server, audio recording, etc., I do with either my Mac tower or my iBook. Everything.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[dfj225]

I love how every Mac user brings up Windows crashing. That is so old. Sure Windows 98 and ME crashed like there was no tomorrow, but then again OS 8 and 9 were just about as stable as their comparable MS products. As far as applications are concerned, they are dependant on the company creating them. I would say that companies like Adobe who make programs for both Mac and Windows don't crash on either platform. I run XP and I have never seen it blue screen. The only apps that really crash on my system are the beta downloads that I sometimes run. (Mozilla 1.4B crashes often.)

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[idsofmarch]

I've used every Mac OS and every Windows OS and all I can say is the Mac OS, including 8 and 9, which were always more stable than 2K orâ"shudderâ"ME, has performed every time while Windows has always failed me. XP BSODs less, that's is true, but OSX has run flawlessly all the time, every time. I have work to do, I don't have time for Windows to puke up some random error or get pissed off because I hooked up the wrong camera to it. Windows has not lost my trust too many times, while my Macs have always worked.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[autopr0n]

And because my mac apps don't crash

You mean, the mac apps you use? I could write a mac app that crashed, and there are lots of applications on windows I have never seen crash, dispite frequent use.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[dfj225]

Well, it looks like how you view the world always depends on your experience. I know that my XP box, and the two other ones that are around me daily, don't blue screen, ever. I have seen the Macs that I use somewhat at school lock up a lot. I'll admit that I've only seen OS X do it a few times, but OS 8 or 9 was really bad. I'm guessing that if we both used Mac OS and Windows daily, then we would probably see eye to eye on stability.

Re:BMW a shitty company?

[idsofmarch]

That's really not fair, because school computers are always screwed up no matter what the operating system is. PCs end up schizoid when students delete or fiddle with .exe and extentions. As for stability, I use both XP and OSX daily doing very similar tasks (Word processing, email, some specialized programs, Adobe's stuff, etc.) and XP BSODs every week. OSX has not crashed once in the same amount of time. Not once. (Since November of 2001) I totally agree with about experience, some people tell me their Macs are constantly troublsome and most people tell me their PCs are continuously in the reboot cycle, so for the most part I tend to think its the user. If you don't have an OSX box, play with one seriouslyâ"and not someone else's system that been all fuglied like a school computer or one at CompUSA. If I used that as a measure for PCs then well I'd still never buy one.

They would have sold more...

[presearch]

..if they made them available with bright colors.

That gray color is just too industrial and utilitarian.
It has all of the excitement of a 1950's government office desk.

Yellow and red, and chrome if you wanted it.
But not acid green or pink, well maybe in japan.
Offering mix and match color parts would also be more fun.
For five grand, you should be able to get a unique color scheme.

Brighter colors would also be safer. Non-integrated ighting is also a problem.
Those little velcro flashlights they sell on the site as options are a lame hack.

*You* give a grap.

[thatguywhoiam]

The rest of everything else, with respect to this "story" is fluff. I don't give a crap what Jobs thinks of it. I don't care what Bezos has to say about the issue. And I certainly don't give a fuck what Dean (the creator) has to say about the matter.

Then by that token we certainly shouldn't give a fuck about some troll who wants to yell about how much he doesn't give a fuck. Fair enough?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[Zathrus]

it does seem i'm the only person who has a segway that reads slashot and is willing to post (and get all sorts of nasty comments and insults). have at it

Probably because your posts are one-dimensional. You have (apparantly) never posted on anything that wasn't Segway related.

And you expect people to not think you're a shill?

They can think?

[jmoriarty]

Ever wanted to know what Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos really thought about the Segway the first time he saw it?

Uh... no. I can honestly say this never crossed my mind. Early on in life I found I could form my own opinoins, which made me depend far less on the opinions of non-experts in a field who have the only qualification of being rich.

If someone knows that the head of R&D at GM thought, or the Secretary of Transportation, I'd be much more interested.

(Of course, I'd also probably stop answering rhetorical questions in news posts and collecting the resulting Troll Karma)

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, bezo

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on mods, that was funny.

Thanks!

[AtariAmarok]

Thank you for the Award. It is kind of tricky. Depending on the "mood o' the mod", the posts will either go to a +5 Funny or -1 Troll. There does not seem to be anything in between, and there is nothing in such a message to determine if it will go +5 or -1.

Re:Thanks!

[M.C. Hampster]

Ah yes, very true. In fact, I see my post is at +1 funny right now, but give it a few hours. It's only a matter of time because it gets to -1 Flamebait.

But who really cares? ;-)

Re:Thanks!

[AtariAmarok]

Mine has gone down to 0, and is now back at +3, where yours is also.

The intent was to make fun of how Jobs might think, rather than provide a valid observation about Microsoft or even a kneejerk "MS sucks".

Re:Thanks!

[autopr0n]

There does not seem to be anything in between, and there is nothing in such a message to determine if it will go +5 or -1.

That's because the slashdot moderation system sucks ass. 500 people hate a comment, 505 people love it, it gets a 5.

Re:Thanks!

[Barlo_Mung_42]

So you've really just been sitting there clicking refresh to watch your rank chage?!?
That just cracks me up!

Where is my anti-gravity flywheel???

[macshune]

The cat's been let out of the bag and people are going to buy a book about the development of a scooter?

This product has been the biggest letdown since the year 2000. I waited, white-knuckled and anxious, for way too long in hopes that I'd be able to zip across the countryside 40 feet in the air and at .25 Mach. Well, not me really, but a ton of other people did:)

The segway is an excellent example of what happens when you don't give out enough details concerning a product and act in extreme secrecy all to protect your whiz-bang idea of a $5000 scooter.....or SCO unix source code...

Re:Where is my anti-gravity flywheel???

[Anonymous Coward]

People will buy a book about it simply because it WAS an overhyped failure. Also, Dean Kamen was actually trying to downplay all the hype and instead used the publicity to discuss the various charities he's involved with.

Re:Where is my anti-gravity flywheel???

[Golias]

People will read this book for the same reason why many movie fans, critics, and would-be film makers watched Kevin Smith's commentary for "Mallrats."

Sometimes you can learn a lot by observing failures.

Wow, that isn't what I remember him saying.

[DrSbaitso]

I guess the "sucks" comment only refers to the actual industrial design. Here's what Jobs was quoted as saying in Segway's pre-vapor phase, when we didn't even know what "It" was:

The participants in that secret meeting continue to rave about IT. "If enough people see the machine you wonâ(TM)t have to convince them to architect cities around it. Itâ(TM)ll just happen," said Jobs.

Source

Please...

[Anonymous Coward]

Any intellectually honest person would s/Windows PC/Linux/g your post.

Jobs is a twit - and way wrong too

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow Jobs is as full of it as I've heard he is.
He wasn't insightful , or even very well informed , just petulant. It's one thing for him to comment on the design , but dismissing their manufacturing and procurement models out of hand indicates that he's 9:10 hubris.

Firstly New Hampshire is actually an excellent location for this sort of manufacturing , probably one of the best when factoring the demographics and costs ( see National Semiconductor ).

secondly , he doesn't even know who's supplying the componentry , or anything about its manufacture or integration , but he's sure that it's a commodity and should be farmed out - just like the mac. Don't you think that Kamen's insistence that it had taken him 9 years to find the component in questions would suggest that it's not something you can pick-up off the shelf.

in fact after reading this I'm prone to suspect that Jobs is a guy who's had one or two good ideas which were very successful and assumes that this qualifies him as some sort of all-knowing genius.
Bezos actually comes off as the more thoughtful of the two. Funnily the backlash against Segway is largely due to the hype the Jobs and Bezos laid on the press.

Re:Jobs is a twit - and way wrong too

[taradfong]

While I found Jobs' stlye too caustic, I have to agree with most of his insights. Yes, maybe it took Kamen 9 years to find his components. However, it would have taken a whole lot less tome to find/create them if he had a complete, working design from which to reverse engineer, which all his competitors now have.

How many products today can you think of that have some marvel of engineering as a barrier to competition? It's execution quality, features and marketing that makes people like Sony, Mercedes, Microsoft etc. the product leaders that they are.

The real danger to the Segway, is if they got everything right except the usage model. That is, someone copies the basic technology but refines it to suit the way people really want to use it: e.g., what the Palm did to the Newton.

Re:Jobs is a twit - and way wrong too

[Anonymous Coward]

your point regarding the feasibility of copying the technology w/ a working design available is valid. The thing that will distinquish the segway in the presence of competitors will be the quality of manufacture. This seems to be even more significant w/ a vehicle such as the segway due to the nature of its drive and stabilization systems - a very minor error in one of multiple components / sub-systems could make the device unusable and potentially very dangerous. This argues for a relatively centralized manufacturing model.

frankly Job's attitude just pissed me off. He couldn't have developed a technology this sophisticated in a million years , but he's going to piss all over their ideas despite the time and effort involved. And the joke of it is that he couldn't see past the friggin design aesthetics.

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[ptorrone]

some people only post about redhat, some only post about other things that interest them like macs. i thought i was uniquely qualified to post about something i use each day, but maybe not. when the subject comes up should i only post negative things? i've had a postive experience...i don't think my handful of comments vs. the thousands of "that thing sucks" is going to change the world.

Segway is your path to death...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, stop moving your body and die in pain.

Re:It think it needs an edit!!

[Anonymous Coward]

For what it's worth, I(t) thought your post was funny. I'm glad it wasn't modded to underworld before I read it.

Jobs was doing them a favor

[EccentricAnomaly]

Job's comments were spot-on. He was blunt and rude so that they would listen to his points and they were really lucky to get advice from someone with Job's experience, and they should have listened instead of getting irritated and trying to get back to their meeting agenda. Agendas should be used to help start a discussion, not to stop it!

The account made the Segway people sound like amateurs who suddenly found themselves playing in the major leagues. Jobs was doing them a favor by playing the role of a grizzled old coach and being very blunt in trying to talk them out of doing some stupid things.

I wish I could get Steve Jobs to stay up all night thinking about my new product! They should've listened more to what he had to say.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[ChadN]

Damn right. "Let us use your valuable time by showing you a bunch of slides, then have you ask questions at the end." Steve said right at the beginning that he should just walk out if they didn't want his feedback (not WOULD, but SHOULD; he was telling them exactly how he could be most useful to them).

I work with scientists, and everytime management tries the "listen to my hour presentation of irrelevant slides, and don't ask questions", the old-timers just say "Fuck that" and get on with getting down to brass tacks. More often then not, it is insightful. They aren't potted plants.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[Anonymous Coward]

Thing I found fascinating was when Bezos referred to the leader of Singapore as a "philosopher king," and some idiot corrected him and said he was the PM, not king. Apparently the guy never read Plato.

The whole passage simply increases my opinion of Bezos and especially Jobs as thinkers, if not as diplomats or human beings.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[drinkypoo]

I have this problem too. I don't make any claims to any level of intelligence (Occasionally I share some state-sponsored metrics but other than that no) but I definitely have the same manner as Jobs. I really feel no enmity for the man whatsoever, he's done more to advance the future of computing than most have. He's a strong technology advocate, and I can't recall any behavior of his which I considered to be underhanded. Anyway with all that said he and I are both somewhat of a prick -- considered that way of course, I personally think I'm a great guy -- because neither one of us is particularly interested in cushioning the blows of our words.

Let me tell you a little story of something that happened to me when I was doing level 2 support at Tivoli. I am fairly certain that it could not possibly be covered by any NDA because I forget all the pertinent technical details :) I shared an office with two coworkers and one of them was telling the customer something on the phone that wasn't true. I asked her to put them on hold and discuss that with me for a moment, and then she like waved me off. Now keep in mind I'm 19 or 20 at this time, and she's well old enough to be my mother, so I think you can see the clash of attitudes here. Anyway she proceeded to tell them this incorrect information and when she hung up I explained to her exactly why (technically) what she was telling them was wrong. This is from information I got from a developers' meeting, mind you. Straight from the you know whose you know what.

Okay so this lady gets all pissed off and storms out to go piss and moan to our manager. So during our next meeting the boss just slammed her and praised me for going to these meetings and for trying to tell her the actual answer, hooray. This story has a fairly happy ending. But the point is that if I had been nicer about it, I probably could have told her in a way that would not have pissed her off so bad. While I came out ahead because I had been dotting and crossing, and didn't cuss her out or anything, I should have understood then (as I do now) that she would be predisposed to ignore my advice. Similarly, if Jobs wants to change the world, he has to be a little more gentle on occasion.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[HeghmoH]

Similarly, if Jobs wants to change the world, he has to be a little more gentle on occasion.

Perhaps you've been living in a cave for the past twenty-five years, but Jobs has already changed the world. Evidently, his attitude is fine.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still in the cave. If only Plato could come back in and remind me that it was just a shadow of Steve Jobs that was hyping 'it' and somehow came out against it over a year after it flopped. Maybe then I'd leave behind my 5 billion friends and step out into the sunlight of the real world that Steve Jobs changed.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[drinkypoo]

He changed computing somewhat, in a way that was bound to happen anyway, by helping Apple be financially successful, and to commercialize ideas dreamt up by Xerox PARC engineers (In the Alto and Star projects.) After that, Apple had no real sense of direction. Lots of good marketing work, like giving away Apples (or selling them cheap anyway) to schools, that's a great idea but not a new one either.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[nathanh]

but I definitely have the same manner as Jobs. I really feel no enmity for the man whatsoever, he's done more to advance the future of computing than most have. He's a strong technology advocate, and I can't recall any behavior of his which I considered to be underhanded.

How about when he screwed Woz on the Atari version of Breakout. Jobs made Woz cry and that's unforgivable. We love you, Woz! You're the hacker's hero. Boo Jobs. Scumbag.

Okay so this lady gets all pissed off and storms out to go piss and moan to our manager. So during our next meeting the boss just slammed her and praised me for going to these meetings and for trying to tell her the actual answer, hooray. This story has a fairly happy ending. But the point is that if I had been nicer about it, I probably could have told her in a way that would not have pissed her off so bad. While I came out ahead because I had been dotting and crossing, and didn't cuss her out or anything, I should have understood then (as I do now) that she would be predisposed to ignore my advice. Similarly, if Jobs wants to change the world, he has to be a little more gentle on occasion.

That's a nice story and illustrates that grokking social standing is important in any field. I've read that IT people tend towards autistic traits which includes social dysfunction. I'm not saying you're autistic or socially dysfunctional! Just that IT people should, more than any other group, make a special effort to learn what you've already learnt. There are certain social interactions that will simply never work.

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[Anonymous Coward]

What have you done that's that impressive?

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[HeghmoH]

Here's a short list off the top of my head of things that Apple either wholly created or was instrumental in popularizing:

The home computer. Ever heard of the Apple II? Way before all your PARC rants, of course. This was the computer that made people, not weirdos but actual people, realize a computer could be useful in the home.

The GUI. Sure, you can say that the industry would have headed in that direction anyway. Maybe we would even have gotten there by now. Don't forget that the industry at the time was dominated by Nobody Ever Got Fired For Buying IBM and 640k Should Be Enough For Anybody Gates. Even with Apple's push, it was still over ten years after the original Mac that anybody else produced something vaguely comparable.

Desktop publishing. For less than $10,000, you could buy a Mac and a LaserWriter, and totally bypass publishers to make whatever the hell you wanted. If you think that's no big deal, tell that to all the people who bought the Mac/LaserWriter combo.

Of course you can argue that Apple's really world-changing ideas were finished by about 1985. Which is an odd coincidence, because that's exactly when Jobs left the company....

Re:Jobs was doing them a favor

[autopr0n]

But come on, that was the first one that you could hook up to a monitor, rather then staring at blinking lights and paper tape. It was ahead of its time, but it's time would have come in the next few years even without Woz's genius.

The GUI. Sure, you can say that the industry would have headed in that direction anyway. Maybe we would even have gotten there by now. Don't forget that the industry at the time was dominated by Nobody Ever Got Fired For Buying IBM and 640k Should Be Enough For Anybody Gates. Even with Apple's push, it was still over ten years after the original Mac that anybody else produced something vaguely comparable.

The first mac had only 64k. Anyway, talk to Douglas Engelbart. The ideas were all out there, it was simply a matter of being the first one. Of course you have to credit jobs for knowing good shit when he saw it.

Desktop publishing. For less than $10,000, you could buy a Mac and a LaserWriter, and totally bypass publishers to make whatever the hell you wanted. If you think that's no big deal, tell that to all the people who bought the Mac/LaserWriter combo.

Okay, I agree with you there :P. But that's probably only because I don't really know that much about it.

You've never watched.

[Anonymous Coward]

" Mod parent up as funny!
"Fox is centrist... concerned with accuracy." "

It is quite clear that you never watch. Either that, or you hide on the nutcase fringes with Chomsky or Buchanan, and think that your own view is center and everything else is skewed to the right-wing or left-wing.

Re:You've never watched.

[cheeseSource]

On the contrary Mr. AC, I watch Fox. It's the best way to get the right-wing perspective. I will freely state that I am not centrist. I am far to the left and reside with the small category of people that value freedom. That real kind of freedom that doesn't bow to invasion of privasy even if privasy isn't technically included in the constitution. I do not think the constituion is the end-all either. It is a flawed piece of work and the founding fathers knew that. It would be great if "modern people" understood that as well, instead of just blabbering about nutcases whenever they disagree with something.

Bush Falls of Segway!!!

[JohnnySkidmarks]

I think you meant to post this pic: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2989000. stm but I couldn't get the pic from your link. Maybe it was /.'d

Re:I think it sucks..

[michaelggreer]

I agree. It is a La-Z-Boy on wheels. The height of suburban culture. Geez, they even SUV'ed roller skates...

Another Example of Jobs' Candidness

[SonOfFlubber]

The following was related to me by my co-worker Eric, who was the first American employed at Apple Japan:

Shortly after Eric arrived in Japan in the early 80's, he accompanied Steve Jobs on a visit to Canon. Cannon recently introduced a desktop copier which intrigued Steve Jobs. At the meeting Steve Jobs challenged the Canon execs and engineers to design a smaller laser printer the same way they were able to shrink the size of a copier.

In those days a laser printer was about the size of a washing machine or a large business copy machine. The only laser printers available were floor models only; nothing you could put on a desktop.

One year later Steve Jobs was invited back to Canon in Japan to see the results of his challenge. Eric went with Steve, a female translator who worked for Apple Japan, and a Japanese manager working for Apple. Steve Jobs and Eric were the only Americans there at the meeting, and only the Apple employees spoke English; none of the Canon people did. All communication from Steve Jobs to the Canon people were done via the translator.

When they got to Canon, a roomful of proud, beaming Canon engineers and managers presented Steve Jobs with their 'minaturized' laser printer - no longer the size of an American washing machine, just perhaps the size of a Japanese washing machine. Just the same it was not the desktop model that Steve Jobs envisioned.

When the interpreter relayed the question from the Canon folks asking what he thought of the their new laser printer, she really squirmed when Jobs said "Tell them it is a piece of shit!"

Re:Another Example of Jobs' Candidness

[Anonymous Coward]

"And the Japanese translator told the Canon engineers that Steve Jobs likes the brown color..."

Segway's with lights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do the Segway's have those awful super-bright blue headlights that cars have and when you wink at them to turn off their brights as they are blinding you they can't because it is their regular lights that are so bright?

So...

[Brian Knotts]

...when are we going to start redesigning cities, again?

Read the book!

[kgp]

It's a great book!

The Hollywood summary would go something like: "Soul of a New Machine" meets "Citizen Kane".

I read an advanced reader copy and really enjoyed it. Much more than I expected. Before I read the Introduction I was in eye-rolling mode "Another paeon to Dean Kamen". Fortunatly it isn't. It shows his good traits and his weakeness.

It is an intereting view of how an engineering team moves from a good idea to research project to production mode. And how a smart, guy with vision can get in the way of this.

Dean Kamen comes off as a rather souless, monomanical patriach with a serious control issue. I would have like to have heard more about him out of work hours.

Steve Jobs (and Bezos and Doerr) all make interesting cameo apperances. The "shit your pants" meeting in the excerpt is the most hilarious part of the book.

Steve Kemper is a good writer and an interesting speaker too.

Strongly recommended.

Now, now.....

[lysium]

It's called balance -- he's the only person on Slashdot who managed to buy one of the damn things. Might as well listen -- it's the equivalent of actually reading the article.....

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[Anonymous Coward]

Informed, positive comments are always in the minority at Slashdot. Please refrain from providing further insight based on first-hand experience and opinions. Instead, join the masses in echoing kneejerk pessimism.

In fact, if you really want to fit in you should stop reading the articles before you post.

Incase you didn't know...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is some more information about this "poster."

Re:Incase you didn't know...

[ptorrone]

yep.

you can email me, call me, look at my personal journal of technology or my segway owner journal. i put it all out there to share with folks good and bad, have at it. insult me, poke me, it's all fine. i write books about mobile devices and rich media, i work for the company that did bmwfilms, i live in seattle, wa. i use a segway but do not work for them in any way or get paid to do anything involving the segway, never have. i love reading slashdot, it's been my home page for years, i subscribe to support them, i have an imac, an ipod, xp machines, a linux box, nokia 3650, a pocket pc phone...and a bunch of other devices i write programs for or write articles about.

i'm a nerd.

cheers,
pt

Re:Incase you didn't know...

[Anonymous Coward]

For the love of christ, get that retarded talking flash head off your page! That's creepy as fuck!

Sure, you're probably Segway's biggest marketing asset, but for what it's worth, i don't think you're a shill. but you don't seem to 'review' any of the products you endorse -- i've yet to see you comment negatively on any aspect of any thing. IIRC, you started bookofseg before you even got the thing. That's damned unusual.

Re:Incase you didn't know...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't be surprised if he jerks off to it.

Humm, maybe he has hidden away on that site some erotic flash movies involving him and a Seg.

SegWay and Public Service

[Anonymous Coward]

Just had a SegWay rolling around the backyard a few hours ago. Turned out to be the Public Service of NH (the electric company) meter reader. Since many of the meters are wired for radio, she just glides within range of the meter, grabs the reading, and then takes off for the next building.

She absolutely loves the device. Says she gets about 2 hours from the battery depending on how much rough terrain she goes over (you should see our sidewalks) and has a spare set for up to 4 hours total travel.

The Segway itself is shared with a nearby town for their meter readings.

As amazing as it is to watch someone actually working on one of these things, it was even more amazing to see her go up to a house and step off the SegWay in order to do a manual reading. Watching the SegWay balance by itself takes you right back to all those basic feedback control experiments from college. --R

Re:SegWay and Public Service

[nagora]

Says she gets about 2 hours from the battery depending on how much rough terrain she goes over

Presumably this will go down further as she gets more and more obese until she has to quit because of the knee trouble she'll get from being overweight and standing for long periods while going over bumps etc.

TWW

No Right-mouse button

[GoofyBoy]

"Users can use the funky squiggly key if they want an alternate method."

Re:No Right-mouse button

[DunbarTheInept]

..Requiring a waste of using two hands for what is essentailly a mousing opearation.

Re:No Right-mouse button

[carlfish]

...Because your other hand is just so busy when you're using the mouse.

When I'm using the mouse, one of my hands has left the keyboard. The other is still sitting near the command/option/control keys anyway. Which essentially gives me four mouse buttons, although only three of them have well-defined semantics.

Speaking as a decade-long Windows user who "switched", it took me about two weeks to get used to a single-button mouse without having to think, and now I have no real inclination to buy a multi-button replacement. On the other hand, I'd probably think differently if I played games.

Re:No Right-mouse button

[DunbarTheInept]

The other hand is typing, hitting hotkeys, or holding up a paper. Yes, it IS busy. With two hands I *should* be able to do two things at once. When I have to use both to do one thing, my ability to work quickly has been hindered.

Old news. Very old news ...

[tfosheim]

That link contains the precise same text as the leaked email that spurred the "what is ginger?" craze in 2k1.

Here's the original usenet post from April 2001

Does news get any older than this?

A bad idea from Jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

" Which is the best fucking idea ever. Floppys suck...they're fragile, they're too small, they're insecure, they're unreliable"

However, they are great if you have nothing else. Jobs' mistake was getting rid of the floppy too early (without replacing it with anything else), which forced the iMac buyers to get this then-essential piece of missing hardware. This also made the iMac look crippled compared to PCs which still all had them, and could move small files around without having to go online.

Re:A bad idea from Jobs

[dasmegabyte]

I don't seem to remember the iMac being a marginalized piece of hardware nobody bought. I remember it being a top seller for three years. I remember seeing it EVERYWHERE. I remember it single handedly saving Apple's hardware market and spawning more innovation than anything since, well, the Apple II.

People who didn't buy it because they needed a floppy drive would probably have found another reason not to buy it. A month of using the iMac was enough to sever your ties to the 3.5 forever.

Re:A bad idea from Jobs

[axxackall]

After using iMac for much more than a month, I can tell:

• floppy is one of the least expensive *AND* the most useless devices for last 5 years in the desktop world. Who need it, if are all networked?
• iMac is one of the most expensive *AND* the most useless devices (for that price!) for last 5 years in the desktop world. Do you really want to pay so much money for such few functions when you cannot add new functions?

Having said that, I love Apple PowerBooks and G4 PowerMacs (towers). First one - for their battery life (it's reaally long). Second one - for a good hardware design (it's really optimal combination of extensibility, power, and price).

Misinterpreted...

[SuperKendall]

After reading the article, I think the original quote must have been "Welcome to Segwayville - population, zero."

The Problem with "Visionaries"

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a long rant, but please bear with me.

Iâ(TM)ve been following the computer industry for over 20 years, and certain people, such as Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Larry Ellison for a big chunk of that time. Consequently, Iâ(TM)ve noticed recurring trends with people who are genuine âoevisionariesâ that often determine if their ideas are successful or not.

The biggest problem that many business âoevisionariesâ face is knowing when TO GET OUT OF THEIR OWN WAY. In short, itâ(TM)s being smart enough to realize when you ARENâ(TM)T being smart, and when you need to defer ideas to others tough enough to stand up to you, and practical enough to see them through to execution. The people who can do it (especially in the computer industry) will probably succeed with their new ideas, and succeed quickly. The people who canâ(TM)t do it, or have to be forced into it, will stumble.

To start off, Steve Jobs is a textbook example of this. I have a theory that Jobs is almost incapable of succeeding right out of the starting gate; he has to fail at first, then on his SECOND attempt, he gets it right. A few examples:

ï® The Apple Lisa failed to sell the idea of a GUI-based computer, but the Macintosh succeeded with this concept.

ï® The original Mac was supposed to be a business computer, but it had no âoeletter-quality printer portâ (as they were called back in 1984), and had insufficient RAM. The so-called 512K âoeFat Macâ fixed that.

ï® The NeXT computer: arguably the most advanced hardware/software design of its day⦠but Jobs insisted that it be sold ONLY to students (initially), at a price point of $6500. (Yeah, right.) It also came with only an optical drive, and no hard drive, at first.

ï® Jobs came to his senses, lowered the price, made if available to everyone (duh!), and equipped it with a real hard drive. Smarter moves⦠But still not smart enough â" he shouldâ(TM)ve ported NeXTStep to Intel architecture and become a software-only company.

ï® The success of NeXTStep really only came about when Apple purchased the OS and (after Jobs came back onboard) morphed it into OSX.

ï® The initial iMac â" no floppy drive (which 3rd-parties had to fill), and the most egregious example: the idiotic, utterly useless hockey puck mouse, which Jobs admitted was a stupid mistake.

Well, DUH. How do things like the above (especially an ergonomically useless mouse) even get by a testing team and out the door? Because the visionary leader/autocrat/dictator responsible (in this case, Jobs) will drive his team to do brilliant things, but when he gets 90 percent of the way to completion, odds are, he will drop the ball. He will insist â" arrogantly, and yes, stupidly â" that he knows how to get the last 10 percent of the way there, instead of deferring to other managers who might actually know a thing or two about economics, ergonomics, sociology, marketing and/or sales that the âoevisionaryâ simply doesnâ(TM)t know. The worst thing that can happen to a visionary is to surround himself/herself with âoeyes menâ who will tell him/her only what they want to hear⦠but all too often, their brusque, abrasive personalities will shut up people who actually question some of their ideas.

Consequently, I take some (not all) of Jobsâ(TM) attacks on the Segway with a grain of salt, and had I been present at that meeting, I wouldâ(TM)ve sharply questioned his judgment, based on the above examples and others. He has little right to harp on âoedesignâ when (to use just one recent example) his insistence on creating a cute circular mouse made him clearly overrule clearer-thinking people in his organization and release one of the most badly-designed, ergonomically foolish computer peripherals ever. This may seem like a small thing, but itâ

Re:The Problem with "Visionaries"

[overunderunderdone]

But still not smart enough â" he shouldâ(TM)ve ported NeXTStep to Intel architecture and become a software-only company.

Umm... They DID.

Re:The Problem with "Visionaries"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, they ported NeXTStep to the Intel architecture... long after it would've helped the company in any financial sense. Too little, too late.

If Jobs had started NeXT as an OS-only company from the beginning, they might've been much more successful.

To borrow a phrase...

[SuperKendall]

"Ironically, this is not far from the truth."

Thus the comment that it was a revlolutionary product that looked mundane.

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[Greedo]

We all stand on the shoulders of giants.

... and Bezos has the patent on shoulder pads.

Apple dying?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apple has been bleeding market share since the Apple II. If they can't sustain a market they are out of business"

This has nothing to do with being in business or not. As long as they have any market share (any customers), they can stay in business. They can grow if it turns out their market share is going down but they are moving more and more units because the overall market is getting a lot bigger.

Re:Apple dying?

[Anonymous Coward]

With computers, there is a non-linear relationship between market share and usability. As market share gets very low, there is very little incentive for develpers to write software for the platform, very little incentive for hardware developers to continue with the non-standard aspects of the platform (PPC) and less incentive for users to buy the platform when they don't know anyone else who uses it.

So, if Apple ends up with 1% market share in a few years, companies will find it very hard to justify development resources for such a niche market. Especially considering the complexity of modern hardware and software.

Examples abound. In the 80's and early 90's, the Mac had the best version of many world-class apps. Things like Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator and Director didn't even run on the PC, and there were no PC programs that could begin to approach what those programs could do. The Mac had the 68000 family of processors, which was faster and easier to program than the Intel processors in PCs. The Mac had an awesome UI, which made DOS and Windows 1 - 3.1 look sad.

Now, which of those advantages does Apple still enjoy? The best-of-class software it still has was developed as a second fiddle to the Windows versions, and often much later. Many programs just don't exist on the Mac. The Mac processor is falling further and further behind the state-of-the-art. The Mac OS is helped by OSX, but is at best arguably as good as the versions of Windows from the past few years.

All of these problems with the Mac platform can be blamed on their loss of market share. And every percentage point they lose will have an even bigger effect.

I don't think it was...

[SuperKendall]

They might have done some tweaks but the Segway we see now looks awfully plain I think...

Yet some ideas were listened to. They have demos of the Segway going on every day at "technology centers" in DisneyLand and DisneyWorld (Epcot). I think the internal designers were just too into the design they came up with.

Another poster noted how they aren't really well lit for evening travel (so that others can see them). Sounds like they should have talked to the same place that designed the keyboard on the 17" Powerbook!

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[aliens]

Maybe it is the tone of your posts, they sound like marketting to me.

"Ever since I got my segway, I sold my car, my wife, my dog, I lost weight, and won the lotto."

Apologies if you really are sincere.

When was Apple biggest in portable computers?

[Anonymous Coward]

" Once they were the biggest company in PORTABLE computers"

When was this? I can't recall a time when most notebooks/portables/laptops I saw were some other brand than apple.

"To get any of their old markets back, they'd have to cut costs to the point of reducing the appeal of their products. They'd have to reduce their legendary service and support"

They could accomplish a lot just by allowing more stores to sell the things.

Steve Jobs

[jmt9581]

I never knew how much I had in common with Steve Jobs.

:)

Apple's never built a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

" Apple's already been the biggest company in PERSONAL computers"

Apple's never had a PC on the market.

Re:Apple's never built a PC

[dasmegabyte]

The first PC to have ANY success in the market was the Apple II. It crushed the competition.

http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml

Dumbass coward.

Re:Apple's never built a PC

[buffer-overflowed]

Remember the jargon from way back when? A PC was a different thing entirely than an Apple (I blame IBM and their IBM PC).

Or at least where I lived if you told an Apple user they had a PC they'd go ballistic.

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[mikerich]

I thought it was Jobs (hint, hint PARC) who built his business on other people's innovations. Urban legend alert!

Steve Jobs heard about the work going on at PARC and offered 100 000 Apple shares in exchange for a demonstration of their work. Some of the PARC people (notably Adele Goldberg) were very unhappy to show Apple what they were doing, but Xerox said 'do it.'

They did it.

Jobs saw the Smalltalk environment, the mouse, pop-up windows, pull-down menus and the rest. So yes, he saw the inspiration for Macintosh windowing, but the Mac interface and the Xerox interfaces are different beasts entirely.

Oh and Xerox did very nicely out of those shares.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[ptorrone]

>>Apologies if you really are sincere. i was able to get rid of my car and did lose weight. that's a good thing. the segway was *one* of the reasons. read my site, you'll see why, or not. i'm happy about it.

the wife and dog are still here (i walk with both of them each night, with my feet).

i don't play the lotto, i'm pretty good at math.

cheers,
pt

What about Speed?

[WC as Kato]

Ok the Segway is cool for its technology but it isn't fast enough. Until there's a speed mod, I'm going for an old-fashioned gas scooter like this one that can hit 50 mph.

"Hey geek boy, I'll race you for pink slips!"

Where am I supposed to put my family?

[jeremycec]

This thing was obviously designed by a single dude.

Re:Jobs has a "Shit your pants" fetish?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moderators: READ THE ARTICLE! It's true.

Steve Jobs made 3 references to "shitting your pants" in the article. And the strange part was that he was using the phrase in a non-standard context. One normally would expect to shit their pants out of fear - but not Jobs - he apparently shits his pants when he is excited by a good design. Things must get really messy around Apple/Pixar whenever they are in the conceptual design phase of a project.

Ford never had 100% market share.

[AtariAmarok]

"100% of the market share in the 1900s"

Huh? There were always other companies selling cars during this period. Oldsmobile is the first one that comes to mind (R E Olds even had the assembly line before Ford).

In 1905, for example, the Olds Curved Dash Runabout sold 6,500 units.

Ford sold 10,000 Model T's in in the first year of production (1909). Those two figures are very close to each other: 6,500 vs 100,000 (just comparing 2 years). I'm not even counting the many other companies operating at the time.

Re:Ford never had 100% market share.

[jkabbe]

Sorry fellas - I just saw a show on the history of Buick (and, thus, GM) and Buick beat out Ford for several years. In fact, if Buick had come up with an all-cash offer Ford was actually for sale. But they couldn't muster the cash and the rest is history....

Apple II was not a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

" The first PC to have ANY success in the market was the Apple II. It crushed the competition."

The Apple ][ was not a PC. It was a microcomputer, but it was not a PC (you had to wait until 1982 for a PC)

It did not crush the competition. The competition thrived during and after the Apple ][ years: from the TRS-80 to the Pets to the Atari and Commodore.

Re:Apple II was not a PC

[dasmegabyte]

PC == Personal Computer. That page is a list of Personal Computers. Only one of them is made by IBM.

The market has kind of loosened up their terms so as not to confuse each others terms, but make no mistake -- "Personal Computers" have nothing to do with hardware or the company that designed their microinstructions, and everything to do with the fact that they are Computers which are Personal (e.g., not timesharing machines or mainframes or terminals). They are self enclosed machines which require no external mechanism to execute software and programs.

Just because IBM called its machine Personal Computer does not mean anything else is suddenly some different class of machine. I call my cat "Cat," doesn't mean he's the only one.

Re:Apple II was not a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

" PC == Personal Computer. That page is a list of Personal Computers. Only one of them is made by IBM."

PC is primarily a term used to describe the IBM-PC and its descendents and evolution of clones afterwards. Yes, there are many PCs besides IBM's.

Before the first PC, however, the machines, including the Apple ][, were mostly called microcomputers. "Personal Computer" was one of those little-used marketing terms (until IBM made use if it, and gave it a solid meaning for one class of machine).

Re:Apple II was not a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

PC is primarily a term used to describe the IBM-PC and its descendents and evolution of clones afterwards.

Fucking revisionist history!

The term "PC" was used to refer to all home computers in the early 80s. Computers which ran the same software as IBM were typically referred to as "IBM compatables" or, less formally, "IBM clones."

Once the clone market, led by companies like Compaq, began to dwarf the sales of IBM PC's, a change was called for. Microsoft, along with most of the IBM clone market, pushed for the use of the term "PC" to specify x86-based home computers which ran Microsoft's operating system, because they wanted to establish a sort of platform identity which did not contain the letters "IBM" (especially since IBM was moving towards OS/2 at the time, so the term "IBM compatable" didn't look like it was likely to apply anymore.)

Those who used other platforms thought it was the silliest thing they had ever heard, but since Commodore already had one foot in the grave at that point, Apple had long since lost its market dominence, and most of the other small players were gone, nobody in the MS-based world really cared what anybody else thought, so the meaning of the term "PC" came to mean the same thing as "Wintel box," at least in the minds of most users.

Re:Apple II was not a PC

[Alien Being]

AC is wrong.

The term microcomputer was coined to refer to a computer based on a "cpu on a chip". For example, when Data General implemented a Nova 3 on a chip (the MicroNova), the machine was called a microcomputer instead of a minicomputer.

The term "personal" was used to refer to non-shared systems well before the IBM PC. Here's a famous example from 1974.

Out of context

[hephaist0s]

Actually, Jobs LOVED it and begged to be involved in the project. The "it sucks" quote came after he had been familiar with the device for months, and was referring specifically to the aesthetic design of the latest version that the team was working on, not the Segway in general.

Arrogant Prick Consumers

[simpl3x]

Nothing quite like being ignored! I have to agree that they were lucky to have the opinion of somebody who actually has sold a few products. Woz was a great engineer, but selling is unfortunately the litmus test.

Innovative, elegant, anthropomorphic,

[watchful.babbler]

Something to remember is that Jobs' loyalty in that meeting was to John Doerr, not to Dean Kamen and the Segway. When a friend and business associate comes over and says, "Hey, I'm thinking about sinking around $40 billion into an untested product from an eccentric genius, could you drop by and feel this thing out," playing go-along-to-get-along with the eccentric is precisely the wrong thing to do. If the players can't stand up to a couple of hours of intense questioning, maybe they're not the right people to handle a major product launch. (And, yes, maybe they weren't.)

In any case, I think that Jobs' intense questioning proves that he really was engaged with the product; he treated it just as he would anything Apple designed, and insisted that it hold to the same rigorous standards. That his fears turned out to be well-founded suggests that, no matter how his worries were couched (he does seem to have a penchant for incontinence as metaphor, doesn't he?), his call for a solid business plan, a real launch strategy, and the tripartite mantra of "innovation, elegant and anthropomorphism" would have been well-heeded.

But...

[pseudochaotic]

That actaully makes sense if he likes the Segway enough to make a website about it. Posting about it again and again is free karma.

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[C0LDFusion]

Totally. I've actually seen the Alto. It's a monstrous beast compared to the original Mac.

And yes, Xerox did excellently on those shares. I think the Alto was the only development at Xerox which actually turned a 200% ROI.

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[mcpkaaos]

Perhaps if you made the occasional post regarding Microsoft's terrible plague on society or how your children couldn't eat solid foods until you discovered Linux your posts would carry more influence and credibility. Or you could put up a website detailing how you case-modded your Seqway to include transparent panels and flashing neon lights. Your choice.

--
mcp.kaaos

Re:Slashdotted already, no karma whoring

[Flunitrazepam]

did i miss anything that was altered other than the part about cowboy neal gear? I just skimmed it trying to find the gold

Re:Slashdotted already, (And a new troll)

[Bombcar]

There's a new kind of troll about. Read the above comment (cut 'n' pasted), and notice this line

"I think it sucks Cowboyneal's Dick!" said Jobs.

Somehow I don't think that that is in the original.

I have tried one out

[198348726583297634]

I was a dork, put on a helmet, and tried a Segway. The thing really is incredible . It's almost like flying. You have the strangest sensation of "willing" yourself in a direction of movement (that is, it's like walking but without the muscle movement), and it only takes about 30 seconds to get the hang of it pretty much completely. I've heard learning to ride it up and down hills is trickier, because you have to unlearn your body's balancing act and let the machine do its. I would buy one if I didn't live out in the sticks and was a 15 minute drive from anywhere. In fact, I might buy one if I can find dog-friendly housing closer into the city; I'd much rather take a segway around town than a car.

Re:I have tried one out

[onomatomania]

Dude, you must use the autologin cookie, because I cannot imagine remembering that login ID for more than a week. Unless it's like your SSN * DOB - 1 or something. :-)

The Philosopher King of Singapore

[Anonymous Coward]

" Thing I found fascinating was when Bezos referred to the leader of Singapore as a "philosopher king," and some idiot corrected him and said he was the PM, not king. Apparently the guy never read Plato.

You forgot to add that the idiot who corrected him was caned and executed on the orders of the Philosopher King of Singapore the very next day (the execution part is because the idiot was chewing gum when he made his mistake)

Sure.

[tacokill]

Don't give a fuck. I don't care. But, I do take issue with your troll comment. I wasn't trying to be a troll. Simply stating that this was a BS story.

My original point, if you read my post, was that this is a non-story. We might as well be asking Ken Lay what he thinks about the global energy markets and this new energy product called "trading". While he may have some expertise and thoughts on the matter, what he says is really not all that important to the success/failure of the product. The same is true here. Who cares what a couple of techo-celebs have to say about a product that has miles and miles to go before it even shows up on peoples radars....

Having interest in such matters is exactly the definition of hype.

Mac OS-X

[Anonymous Coward]

"The current OS certainly *IS* all GUI.

The reason that OS-X is such a vast improvement over the previous Mac-OS's is that it embraces the command line. The older OS's were always crippled and harder to use due to the lack of the CLI.

"And the mac classic rocked, it was precision and efficiency "

Except that it was a hard to use kludge that left a pile of paperclips littered in front of it because you had to have those to eject floppies.

That's just bizarre

[jmichaelg]

If you put your foot on the platform and push it upright, it'll come on, and you step on it, and off you go. However, if you wait too long, it'll shut off, and when you step up, it won't turn on and you fall on your face.

If I understand you properly, you step on it "soon enough," it does the right thing. But wait "too long," step on it and you take a tumble? All because there isn't a pressure sensor that says "Gee, somebody is standing on the platform!"

Bizarre.

Re:That's just bizarre

[lostchicken]

There is a pressure sensor. If you step on it within, like within 20 seconds or so of it being in power assist mode, it'll come on. Otherwise, it'll go off and lock to save battery (and be secure) and you're just stepping on a pivoting platform.

The sensors only turn the thing into balance mode, not on from a full power down. That has to be done with the key.

Gob Click Tong?

[xyrw]

Vern Loucks, who had been quietly watching the fireworks up to this point, said, "You mean Gob Click Tong. He's not a king, he's the prime minister. I can get us in to see him if we want to do that," he added.

Speaking as a Singaporean: the Prime Minister's name is Goh Chok Tong.

Yeesh.

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[buckhead_buddy]

Interestingly, Apple's relationship with Smalltalk didn't end with the well known adoption of the mouse, windows, and so forth.

Squeak is a modern Smalltalk-like environment created by a research team at Apple. Disney took up the mantle when Apple decided they didn't want to develop it further. And now the project is on its own. But it's an interesting footnote to the relation of Apple and Smalltalk that not many people know about.

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[Anonymous Coward]

How many fingers am I holding up?

Billionaires out of touch with reality

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason why the Segway GBPM failed miserably is obvious to anyone who isn't a billionaire. The designers of the Segway GPBM (Glorified Battery Powered Moped) utterly ignored the 3 most important questions about their product:

MOST IMPORTANT: How much will a Segway cost?
(Answer: Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much. A
moped costs far less, travels much faster,
and can run for hundreds of miles on a
single tank of gasoline. Why would anyone
pay all that money for a glorified battery
powered moped? The billionaires in this
excerpt don't give a damn because a couple
of grand is chimp change to them. But to
real wpeople in the real world, a couple
of gran is a f**kin' T*O*N of bucks, and
NOBODY will spend a couple grand on a
glorified battery powered moped unless
they're rich, lazy, and dumb.)

VERY IMPORTANT: How far will a Segway travel
on one battery?
(Answer: Not nearly far enough. The official
answer is something like 24 miles, and doubtless
various Dean Kamen fanatics will now pile on
with irrelevant corrections. Who cares? 24
miles, 12 miles, 16 miles, 52.835 miles...
it's not nearly far enough. The nightmare
scenario in a sensible consumer's mind
is: what do I do when I get to the grocery
store and the battery dies on me? So why
would any sensible person buy a wildly
overpriced moped with batteries that
constantly die on you, instead of the much
cheaper and more reliable REAL moped, that
runs for 100s of miles on a single tank of
cheap gas -- gasoline available anywhere,
at any service station in town or in the
country, as opposed to exotic Segway
batteries you can't buy anywhere but
from Dean Kamen?)

IMPORTANT: How do I carry stuff on a SegwaY/
(Answer: You can't. That's the death blow.
The clincher. The killer. I hook a trailer
on my bike that carries a week's worth of
groceries plus 4 gallons of bottled water.
I ride my bike to and from the grocery
store and haul back a ton of groceries.
Can you hooka trailer on the back of
the Segway? No? When why should I pay
25 times the cost of my bike for a Segway
with a wildly overpriced exotic one-of-a-kind
battery that constantly dies on me when I
can't even carry groceries with it?)
--------
In a larger sense, this story provides a
warning to us about why billionaires should
not be allowed to run large segments of the
world economy.
Bezos and Jobs and Doerr and the other
fabulously wealthy billionaires never asked
any meaningful questions about the Segway
GBPM (GLorified Battery Powered Moped) because
all these billionaires have gotten wayyyyyyyy
out of touch with ordinary people who live
in the real world.
Out here in the real world, kiddies, nobody
gives a damn whether the design sucks. The
design of most mopeds sucks -- so what? The price
is cheap and it runs forever on a tank of
gas, so they sell like hotcakes. The design
of most bicycles sucks big wang (there are
a few ultra-high-end racing bikes that look
cool, but most bikes look more or less like
kludgy crufty Victorian antique hunks of junk,
and have for 70 years since bike design
was more or less forzen by technology) and
who cares? Bikes are cheap, you can carry
tons of stuff in bike baskets or panniers or
a bike trailer hooked to the back of your
bike, and a bike will run forever as long as
you don't deliberately steer over a broken
bottle -- so people buy bikes like crazy
and they sell like hotcakes.
Best of all, when you ride a bike you actually
get *exercse*. What a concept. When was the
last time John Doerr rode a bike? When was
the last time Dean Kamen rode a scooter?
When was the last

I want to play with one.

[solprovider]

I saw the Segway at DisneyWorld, and would love to play with one. Except for security guards at large campuses (educational, corporate, or entertaining), I could not think of a market for them. But ptorrone looked at his life, the Segway, and saw a good fit.

I live in the suburbs: the usual trip is 30 minutes at 50mph, except for buying groceries, and the Segway does not have a trunk. (We were discussing adding a trailer the last time the Segway was mentioned on Slashdot.)

These things would be very dangerous in the city. Are they classified as weapons in NYC yet?

Are they meant for use on sidewalks or roads? I live at the border where sidewalks disappear. Any farther from the city and there are none. Where is the market? Is it just for people who live a few miles from work? Does the culture in Seattle allow for Segways to become the dominant form of travel?

---
As far as teasing ptorrone, he fit a Segway into his life, and his life is better for it. From his website, it also saves money. Maybe someday he will save enough to buy a keyboard with a SHIFT key.

(I assume anybody who does not capitalize correctly is either a foreigner or an employee of MICROSOFT. Germans have their own rules, which leads to interesting variable and function names. MS let everything be uppercase for BASIC and DOS. Then when the standards for HTML were all uppercase, MS insisted that everything be lowercase. Since ptorrone never types an uppercase character and lives in Seattle, I assume he works for MS and started after 1996. It is better to assume they are different than to assume they are stupid.)

Re:I want to play with one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lack of capitals and/or punctuation are normally signs of a complete idiot, rather than a native speaker of anything other than English.

But I'm only really posting to this because I'm curious as to why I can reply to a story that is almost a year old.

Definition of Polyphonic

[solprovider]

Disclaimer: I do not have a Zaurus and do not remember if I ever saw one in real life.

Polyphonic means able to play more than one note at a time. A flute is monophonic. A piano is polyphonic. A device claiming to be polyphonic can play chords, or have a drum beat, a bass line, and a melody.

The Nokia cell phones I've owned and my current Motorola V60 had monophonic ringers. The V60 has the ability to write music on the phone, but it is difficult to write songs with just a melody line using the cheesy tone. If it was polyphonic, or had another tone, it would be much better for composing while on the road.

It was when

[rblancarte]

Jobs said it sucked, not because he thought the idea was dumb - he thought it didn't have a cutting edge design. This is the guy who made Apples sell because of their external design alone. Hell, the iMac alone started a WHOLE new market trend; just look at all the things you can buy now with the iMac color schemes.

What I love about the way brandido wrote it was:

"recounting of the Apple and Amazon bosses' first impressions of the device. Steve Jobs' gut reaction, quoted in the article: 'I think it sucks!'"

But that isn't true. He had seen Ginger a day earlier and had time to reflect on the whole thing. He thought it was solid, but lacked a look that people would be drawn to. The quote should have had this additional thought added to it

"'You have this incredibly innovative machine but it looks very traditional.'"

But instead he wanted to go for the shock value. Somehow this appearing on /. shocks me not at all.

I can't help but agree with Jobs

[qtp]

I remember when the Segway was introduced, and it was sooo ugly, awkward and stupid. The first thought in my head was that everyone would look like an ass when riding one. It's as if the only market they could think of was grandmas and dweebs.

It's as if they didn't even try to think about what the balancing tech could do for them, but immediately went to the "make sure no-one can get hurt" phase of design. Of course, there's already been one dweeb caught taking a spill.

Heck...

[rblancarte]

I had only read half the article when I posted my thoughts. Now that I have read more:

Damn, Steve Jobs was on top of things here. He hit the nail on the head and could be considered be 100% right about what he said. Just some of the things he thought:

He thought the design sucked - to plain jane. I don't know how much it changed since then, but this device still is kind of so-so looking.
He hit them for manufacturing issues, many of which might have been right. Which also led to him ...
Knocking them for their thoughts on reverse engineering. He is probably right on this, and IMHO, their thinking it couldn't be reverse engineered was very obtuse.
His biggest point was that they needed to just flood the market. Don't go slow, go all out, sell them everywhere.

I have to admit - his last point is very good, they had a very narrow market at the start, which alone let it get slammed. From the article:

"[Jobs] warned that even this sort of slow launch was filled with dangers. If one stupid kid at Stanford hurt himself using a Ginger and then announced online that the machine sucked, the company was sunk, because there was no way to control that or counter it if people couldn't ride one for themselves. With a big fast launch, on the other hand, a few malcontents wouldn't be heard above the general hoopla."

Think about it. Why is one of the biggest reasons that the Segway is slammed? No one has gotten on one. Hell, I would guess very few of us have seen one in person. I saw one briefly, but didn't get a good look at it. I have heard the "It sucks, it sucks", but I don't see a lot of people out there who have used one that could give a solid review of it. There is a little scooter place in the shopping center near my place that does all they can to get their scooters seen. Just from watching people ride them, I have a better feel for what those scooters can do than a Segway.

RonB

Job's Vocab

[Myuu]

He like to say "shit in his pants" a lot, doesn't he?

Steve Jobs story

[IronChef]

Supposedly Jobs parks his Jag diagonally across multiple spaces when he drives to Apple. (In some tellings of the story, he regularly blocks handicap spots.)

As the story goes, one day he returns to his car to find a note on it: Park Different

This story may not be true, but if it isn't, it SHOULD be.

Re:Steve Jobs story

[Anonymous Coward]

Steve Jobs used to park in the front parking space, which was the Handicapped spot. He did that regularly, because employess used to key his car frequently in the back lot. One day, he found somebody put a note "Park Different" on his car. I heard he wanted whoever it was fired, but of course nobody knew who it was.

Comparison

[YrWrstNtmr]

IYO, how does the Seg compare to a cheaper, more conventional electric scooter? The little ones available for $200.

Re:Comparison

[ptorrone]

good question. i have one of those too and used to use one when i lived in minneapolis (mine was $1,000 one and pretty good). the electric scooter doesn't have the range, or hill climbing ability of the segway ht, i need both for my commute-- granted some can "almost" do my commute, but none can at this time. if and where there a cheaper solution that can get me to work with my travel requirements, i'll gladly consider it.

also, the state and local laws allow me to use the segway ht on both streets and sidewalks (just like bikes can in my area).

cheers,
pt

"Are you a virgin?"

[eMartin]

Jobs: Are you a virgin?

Mike Markkula [Apple chairman]: Steve, c'mon.

Brewster: What? no!

Jobs: How old were you when you first got laid?

Markkula: Steve...leave him alone.

Jobs: I asked you a question!

Brewster [squirming]: My wife and I have been married for...

Jobs: I didn't ask you about your wife. You're still a virgin. You just think you're not. You don't fit in here. Why have you been wasting our time?

Re:"Are you a virgin?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you just try to use a TNT movie as a form of history?

Re:"Are you a virgin?"

[rot26]

According to Woz, who was there for many if not most of the scenes portraying Jobs, "Pirates" was dead-on accurate, and he vouched for the authenticity of that scene explicitly. It sure kept the riff-raff out of apple.

heh

[10bt]

typical steve jobs. his brashness makes me wanna shit in my pants! ;)

Capitalization - it's not just for nerds

[ishmaelflood]

We use capitalization to improve the efficiency with which we communicate. Perhaps you might get more attention paid to your website if you did the same.

Squeezing out the last drop

[r2ravens]

Yup.

Linux users (for example) are known to keep aging computer hardware useful long after it was left for dead by its former Windows using owner. The open source community consistently manages to squeeze every last ounce of processing power from even the most aged hardware available.

The fastest machines in my house are two PII-400 boxen being used as primary workstation and server running RH9. They do everything I want them to do. And BTW, they were given to me for free. The other server is a P233 on an AT motherboard.

Similarly, Mac users are known to keep their computers as primary productivity tools until the gears fall off.

Right again, but even better. 1 - iMac 333, 1 - iMac 233, 1 - 8500, 1 - 7600, 1 - PB1400c-166, 1 - PB165c, and, recently acquired from the fine dumpster outside my apartment, a 6100-66/DOS all in working shape and useful in one way or another. Oh yeah, a pair of 6100-66's loaned to friends.

The only MS stuff in the house is a Compaq EVO laptop from work running W2K.

I'd say thay pretty well supports oscast's argument of market-share vs. installed-base. And I'm sure there are many here who could provide similar stats. The real question is - how can we be counted?

Re:Squeezing out the last drop

[zero_offset]

Big deal. All that old hardware still runs Windows just fine, too.

One P1-90 running NT4 (very usable, a dev SQL Server box in fact)
Two P1-100s running NT4 (very usable)
Two P1-166s running Win98 (webcams)
Two P2-266s running Win98 (webcams, MP3s)
One P3-500 running Win2K (alarm & home control) One P3-700 running Win2K (MP3s, basement Quake3, DVD, web) One 1GHz Althon running WinXP (MP3s, living-room Quake3, DVD, web) Two P4-2.6s running XP (main PCs)

Mainly I use so many because of physical separation -- some upstairs, some downstairs at various places in the garages, etc.

And don't give me crap about stability. These machines do not crash, ever. The ONLY BSOD I've seen in YEARS was (coincidentally) yesterday, after trying the much-heralded BitTorrent for the first time. Apparently it doesn't like something about one of my LinkSys NIC drivers. Prior to that, I haven't had a non-hardware failure in at least two years. These machines are powered up and running 24x7, all on battery backup.

Could I do the same with Linux? Sure. Do I want to? Nope. I already owned all those copies of Windows (yeah, I actually paid for it, go figure), and in many cases it would be a royal bitch to do what I want under Linux (old webcams, alarm system & home control interfacing, DVD playback).

The surprising one, of course, is NT4 and SQL Server on a P90. That machine has 96MB of RAM and an old throw-away 6GB HDD, and has been in continuous usage since the mid-90's. I had a CD-ROM drive die in it, but other than that, it's just hummed along without a hitch.

I also have a 286 I've been thinking about powering up just for laughs. Not sure what I'd do with it yet, though.

Don't revise history

[Anonymous Coward]

"The term "PC" was used to refer to all home computers in the early 80s"

I was there. Were you? The term "microcomputer" was used predominatly, especially in the press (dominant magazines of the day such as Kilobaud Microcomputing and BYTE).

"so the meaning of the term "PC" came to mean the same thing as "Wintel box," at least in the minds of most users."

That has never been a good name. PC has been the most accurate. For years most PC's never even ran Windows, and now many are not even Intel-based.

What is this "astroturfing" of which you speak?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not familiar with "astroturfing" as a verb. What's the etymology?

Re:What is this "astroturfing" of which you speak?

[onomatomania]

think "grassroots campaign" meets "corporate guerrila marketing tactics"

I'll buy his post

[r2ravens]

I own a tivo and I proselytize it to anyone who will listen. It's truly a great product. I own no stock in tivo, am not employed by them and stand to make no profit from my efforts. I just like the damn things. I think they're wonderful and that others just might love them as much as I do.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with a Segway that a US $500.00 price tag wouldn't fix. You know damn well that a *significant* percentage of /. readers would jump all over that price point and you'd see them ridden and promoted everywhere. Hell there might be enough critical mass to oppose local well-meaning but obstructionist officials who attempt to limit their use.

Or, on the downside, maybe 'dubya' is so pissed at having fallen off of one in public view that there will be a federal law prohibiting their use everywhere in the US, Afghanistan, Iraq and other US possessions. We'll just have to watch how that cookie crumbles.

You guys are just jealous

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone geek would love to have a segway, even if it's just for a few days.

You just dump on this guy because he's got one, and he likes it. And YOU DON'T.

Hey, I like my Canon 1D, my Canon GL2, and a bunch of other cool stuff I have; if you were talking about that, I'd tell you in spades how great it was.

The guy is an honest gadget freak, and it's interesting to find out how he uses it.

So stop putting him down.

"Cities will be built?" Be afraid!

[ohm]

"Anyone know where that "cities will be built" quote came from?"

Maybe it wasn't a review -- it was a warning! People once planned cities around cars, and look where it got us. A Segway-centric city will have narrower sidewalks, a too-large-for-ordinary-pedestrian scale, and lots of rich and middle-class people zooming past the poor.

Steve might've said both things without being contradictory: these things suck, and they've the potential to screw up our cities, and just after we started to rediscover our wonderful downtowns. Steve was warning us. We should listen.

Jobs concern

[Anonymous Coward]

"If one stupid kid at Stanford hurt himself using a Ginger and then announced online that the machine sucked, the company was sunk, because there was no way to control that or counter it if people couldn't ride one for themselves." wonder how many products take into consideration this power of internet. jobs sure did consider this when designing iPOD's

+5 Informative??

[Anonymous Coward]

I come to a Segway article, and i see this crap at +5?

Do these moderators know what the fuck offtopic means?

What the fuck does this comment have to do with the topic at all?

I know you lefties like to push your agendas everywhere, but don't make it this obvious.

Segway - big deal

[Animats]

Why did people think this was so cool? As the host said on Good Morning America, "That's it?". And for the amount of money they've spent on this product, far too few have shipped. Two years after product launch, there are three Segway dealers in the world, in Margate, FL, Celebration, FL, and Batavia, OH.

Kamen's previous product, the iBot self-balancing wheelchair, is more useful. That actually meets a need. The Segway is more like the junk in the Sharper Image catalog.

I've seen two Segways in Silicon Valley. One was in front of the Walgreens on University Avenue, with the owner trying to figure out some place to park the thing so he could go in the store. The other was being driven in downtown San Jose by a guy using it to pick up girls. (Didn't work.) A bicycle is far more useful.

As for the book, it ends too soon and was published too late. Kamen kicked the author out in 2001, and the book effectively ends there. But it didn't come out until recently. It doesn't address the post-launch debacle.

Car:Gas::Apple:ELECTRICITY

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad Analogy, sport...

great, you're one of those...

[iFlynn]

"I could go on and on here, but the point is, I don't think you know what you are talking about. I have been using computers now for over two decades and have watched the industry evolve.

I'm bored with this now....."

I would bow to your superior intelect and experience, but it just doesn't exist. I don't normaly reply to /. posts that reply to mine. I feel I said what I wanted to say and other people will say what they've got to say. However, you not only replied to my reply, you had a lot to say about me as well and it was all wrong.

To set the record straight...

I do use OS X almost everyday, I'm using it right now on my iBook, hence my name iFlynn.

I'm not new to computers, I've been using them as long as you, over 20 years. My first computer was a TRS 80 with extended color BASIC, silver with a chicklet keyboard.

I don't think you actually read my post, and that's why you completely missed my point. Look at your comment on the one button mouse... you imply that I didn't know multi-button mice are supported when my whole point is that they are supported yet Apple can't admit that they should have implimented them a long time ago by shipping them now.

I stand by what I said in my post, Apple innovation is smoke and mirrors, just as your reply. Look at your list, over half the things in your list you credit Apple as innovating simply because they used someone elses product!

The worst example in your list is by far the first GUI. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows the whole story, you're not really fooling anyone with that one. You should have said they were the first to steal the idea of a GUI controlled by a mouse from Xerox, everyone would agree with that. Perhaps Apple's greatest innovation is how to steal a product and market it as their own.

A lot of your examples don't even make sense. Built in sound with the Mac? Have you ever heard of a Commodore 64?

Talk about bored, your list of great Apple innovations is not only tired, it proves my point. Apple's only real innovation is marketing other peoples' products as their own.

Jobs goes Buddhist on the Segway

[rjung2k]

But man can he act like an arrogant prick!

That's part of his Buddhist background -- he's adopting a Zen Buddhism training technique where the master (Jobs) brutally assaults the student, and sees if the student can defend himself adequately. It's normally done with ideas (the student presents a view to the master for approval/analysis), but Jobs reportedly does this often with business dealings. The Second Coming of Steve Jobs includes anecdotes of several such meetings, including one where he reduced a new gal from an ad agency to tears -- but she ultimately defended her ideas against him, and he gave her the account.

The rationale for this technique is that if your idea/invention/proposal/etc. is bulletproof, you can deflect all of his arguments and fight back in the process. If you crumple under his attack, then your proposal was flawed and needs rework. It's brutal, yes, especially if you're used to the "polite" way of doing business. But damn effective.

Re:Jobs goes Buddhist on the Segway

[Anonymous Coward]

Being an asshole doesn't invalidate an argument. You don't need to be an asshole to question the validity of an idea.

Who are you to give advice?

[autopr0n]

Steve Jobs is a billionaire and you're posting on slashdot. I'm going to venture a guess that he couldn't give a shit about your advice. He's obviously been successful without it.

Jobs thinks he's smarter then everyone else and it shows. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with stating an opinion, even if it hurts someone else's feelings. The real important things are things like not holding grudges and not fucking people over because you can.

Anyway, If you've seen my posts on slashdot you'll know I'm definitely not an apple fan jobs groupie or anything like that. I'm just pointing out that Jobs has achieved a lot in this world while being a 'dick'.

Oh geez

[autopr0n]

What percent of the US market share does BMW have? And would you call BMW a shitty company for selling so few cars?

No, but I would certainly call them a shitty car company if all their cars were slower then everyone else's.

And I would call their owners obnoxious prices for thinking they were superior for owning over-priced slow-assed piece of junk just because it 'looks pretty'.

Re:Oh geez

[Anonymous Coward]

Gosh darnit. How unoriginal, not to mention ill-informed in so many ways. Now where's my "-1 Ignorant Asshat" moderation option when I need it?

Mor stable then 2k?

[autopr0n]

I've seen win2k crash like, three or four times in the past few years on my computer. Which is hardly a paragon of well-put-togetherness.

Re:great, you're one of those...

[BWJones]

I don't normaly reply to /. posts that reply to mine.

Hmmmm. I see.

I'm using it right now on my iBook, hence my name iFlynn.

Right. I thought it had more to do with Isil. Yes?

Look. It's apparent we differ on perspectives. I offered examples and evidence to back my claim of innovation. All I would ask of my colleagues and those I communicate with is the same.

Best,

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[MrTangent]

Hint, Hint PARC took a lot of these ideas from Douglas Englebart of Stanford Research Institute. Sad, but true. Xerox PARC was amazing, but Douglas Englebart was more so by an order of magnitude.

Stand up and be counted...

[DivideByZero]

How about at The Linux Counter project?

Geez

[autopr0n]

1. Color with the Apple ][

Of course, the apple II was the first PC with video support. Obviously it's going to be the first with color

4. The first GUI in a PC with the Lisa then the Macintosh.

Of course, they were only the first to market. They didn't invent it by a longshot.

6. The first to have networking built in to their computers with Appletalk.

You mean a built in networking stack or what? Appletalk is software, not hardware. This unqualified statement really dosn't make much sense.

7. Built in sound with the Macintosh

BEEP BEEP BEEP goes the IBM PC

12. Drag and drop application installation.

As opposed to what, double-click installation? apt-get installation? Frankly that sounds like more work then windows or some linux distributions.

13. Built in speech in the OS.

Oh yeah, that really gets used a lot.

17. First with a multimedia application platform with Quicktime.

Now what does THAT mean? "multimedia application platform" is an incredibly nebulous term. The Amiga had multimedia support way before the mac.

19. First to ship CD-ROM drives in PC's

Do you have any evidence of this. I kinda doubt it's true

20. First to ship integrated DSP's in PC's

What do you even mean by this? What benifit does this DSP have for the machine.

21. First with the PDA with the Newton.

Yes.

22. First with handwriting recognition with Newton.

no.

23. Invented Firewire.

no.

24. First to standardize on USB

You mean the USB that Intel came up with? There were plenty of PCs that had usb. 26. First with systemwide support of anti-aliased fonts in OS X.

OS X? Sorry, windows supported this back with win 98.

segway is missing some serious hardware...

[Vaughn Anderson]

Like a kickstand, rollbar and maybe the all to elusive 3rd wheel so you _can't_ fall over... are they so cheap that they can't afford the 3rd wheel or so idealistic that they don't want it... reminds me of what Steve Jobs said about the first Mac...

"Who wants a color monitor anyways?"

Who doesn't enjoy falling on their face anyways?

Here's the idea, if it starts to fall over, it stops on a protruding _anything_.... *sigh* even a 5 year could figure out how to stop the impending storm of lawsuits from flat faces of drunk segway cruisers...

I don't know

[autopr0n]

Perhaps you could explain to me why you don't think apple computers are slower then other types of computers. Will you show my the results for one single photoshop filter from 2 years ago? Or will you tell me how RISC is just so much faster then CISC.

Or maybe you will tell me how slower cars really are better then faster ones?

Re:I don't know

[dasmegabyte]

Hey autopr0n. Hate your website.

Anyway, I'd like to say that my car is slower and more expensive that the Acura RSX. I guess I should have bought one, huh...because i guess the things I thought were important (comfortable seating and controls, good gas economy, nice sound system, high crash survivability, ability to seat five adults comfortable with geat) are fucking INCONSEQUENTIAL compared to speed and price!

Guess I'm also stupid for buying a mac laptop for its nicely polished UNIX based OS that does everyting i want, because it's not as _FAST_ as an x86 laptop. Shit, I wish I would have seen it that way...why would anybody want anything other than a P4 5 GHz machine running Windows for Workgroups at 640x480? Because damn, that's fast!

Re:Verisign is a bad company!

[akpcep]

IT BURRRRNS!

Re:this comment is copyrighted, but nice try, JOBS

[Nom du Keyboard]

PARC took a lot of these ideas from Douglas Englebart of Stanford Research Institute. Sad, but true. Xerox PARC was amazing, but Douglas Englebart was more so by an order of magnitude.

If PARC actually made them work, truely implemented them for the first time, then I'd say PARC is equally amazing.

Re: the only one dumb enough to post (that's me)

[qortra]

This thread is ridiculously old now, so I don't think you'll read this.

In case you do though, thanks for your post and your site on your experiences with the segway; I thought they were well constructed and informative.

Nevertheless, please be willing to admit that your experiences do end up sounding abit like the Apple "Switch" campaign or something of that nature.

Regards, qortra

Apple 2 was not a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

"Of course, the apple II was the first PC with video support. Obviously it's going to be the first with color "

The Apple 2 was never a PC.

"4. The first GUI in a PC with the Lisa then the Macintosh"

Neither the Lisa or the Macs were ever PCs. However, it should be pointed out that other computers such as the Atari had GUI for certain programs including paint/drawing.

"7. Built in sound with the Macintosh "

The Atari 400/800 and the Commodore Vic-20 and 64 both had built-in sound synthesizer chips, well before the Macintosh.

It's easy to ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Translate that for him..."chotto ki ni itte irasshaimasen"

THEY LICENSED THE DAMN XEROX GUI!

[Anonymous Coward]

LICENSED!
PAID MONEY!

Alan kay was not ripped off you fucking moron.

Re:THEY LICENSED THE DAMN XEROX GUI!

[JamieF]

Yes, but as we have recently learned from SCO's CEO, once you license something to someone and they hire hundreds of brilliant people to work on it and spend millions of dollars on R&D improving it over the course of a decade, you still get to claim that it was all your idea and that you should get credit for everything. Or, as in the case of Xerox, people who don't like you can claim that it was all your idea.

What do you mean?

[autopr0n]

The apple II was a personal computer

Re: carrying stuff

[Down8]

I agree with your ideas, but there is an adapter, looking much like your bicycle basket, that is available for the Segway. Not that it helps much.

-bZj

If you were rude...

[jotaeleemeese]

... I would have slammed you for that.

Assuming the above, you had the right idea but the wrong attitude and that should have been pointed out to you.

Foot petals.

[GoofyBoy]

You aren't using your feet for anything, why not foot buttons?

It the "freedom" that it provides. You aren't using your other fingers and they will always be on your mouse when you use it.

It just seems silly that when there are so many things to do with an object that they would still keep with one mouse button. I'm not saying that 3/4/5 mouse buttons are useful but one easy alternate method of selecting is a good thing.

Slashdot error?

[Anonymous Coward]

Odd, I can still reply to this even though it is 10/1/03.

Oh, and you still can't STFU about your stupid scooter.

Re:Slashdot error?

[ptorrone]

bring it on big boy.

Last POST?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dang, they haven't turned off replies for this one yet!