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The Rise Of Bugs In Console Games

Thanks to GameSpy for posting a column discussing the increasing prevalence of serious bugs and glitches in console titles, especially in relation to several of this summer's 'blockbusters'. Singled out are Enter The Matrix: "Even if you enjoy the game.. you can't ignore the fact that all three console makers let Atari have a 'get out of final approval free card' when it came to testing...", as well as the new Tomb Raider title: "AOD froze up on me at least half a dozen times... Lara fell through invisible gaps in the street, walked through invisible gaps in walls, and refused to walk up stairs that she was supposed to be able to climb." What's to be done when, as the author says, "judging from the sales of these... titles, enough of you guys just aren't punishing the companies for releasing sub-par products to make a difference"?

132 comments

  1. whats to be done? by mutewinter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Buggy games certainly have to account for a portion of "piracy" out there. A few bad experiences of dropping $50 for a piece of trash can make individuals who aren't quite in the middle-class less than eager to take the risk again.

    Consoles are even worse. At least for PC games we can anticipate patches, which generally tend to do a pretty good job fixes bugs, especially if its a big game (or an online one.)

    1. Re:whats to be done? by Muerto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      that is total crap. Just because a game is buggy doesn't give you the right to steal photoshop. Regardless of bugs, people spend time and money on making these applications... you have no right to steal from them.

    2. Re:whats to be done? by BTWR · · Score: 1

      and the parent is modded Flamebait because.... (?)

    3. Re:whats to be done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      probably because the person that modded it felt bad because they stole photosop?? perhaps!

    4. Re:whats to be done? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because someone obviously feels that theft is right. Nothing justifies stealing. Noone ever decided to start stealing software because of a bug. It may make someone not buy that companies products in the future, but not buying and stealing are quite different.

      That flamebait is just someone fulfilling an agenda and should be removed.

    5. Re:whats to be done? by Zelet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't buy games because of bugs. I steal them and if I really like them and play them for more than an hour I buy them.

      Buggy software pisses me off. How many car companies could sell a car whos door falls off when you drive off the lot? Even if it does, you can take the car back for warranty service and it is free to get fixed.

      Try buying a game from Best Buy and trying to take it back because of bugs - they will laugh you out of the store.

      --
      ...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
    6. Re:whats to be done? by AndyBusch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, consoles are worse in terms of allowing patches, but, as this article implies, they are fantasic generally for squishing bugs before they get out. I've only ever played two games with showstopping bugs (Metroid Prime froze, but only once, and Mortal Kombat II for SNES wouldn't let you play pong). Everything else is so minor as to be something that you have to make effort to trigger (the minus world in Super Mario Bros.). In fact, this was also the state of affairs before the internet. Software just plain worked as intended (and not in the Verant sense), because there was no economical way to send out patches. But, since there is a way now (it's also known as "burden the gamer"), companies demand faster action to get sales.

      Sadly, this doesn't seem like there's any feasible way to change this, without blowing up the internet, and making CDs expensive to produce again.

    7. Re:whats to be done? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      Well you can't actually take the car back because it has a defect. If a major defect is discovered, then a recall is issued. Wow, that sounds alot like a patch. Thanks for proving MY point. There is no justification for stealing. It is just wrong.

    8. Re:whats to be done? by Zelet · · Score: 1

      So you can patch a console game, huh? That is news to me.

      --
      ...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
    9. Re:whats to be done? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      You should keep up better with current events then. I will leave the discovery of the numerous titles that have been patched and that some even receive free added content as and exercise for the reader. You can take your foot out of your mouth and admit you were wrong now.

    10. Re:whats to be done? by Sparr0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, and in laughing you out of the store they open all sorts of doors. First of all, you can reverse the credit card charge (or stop payment on the check, or what not) from when you bought the game. Secondly, they invalidate any sort of EULA, allowing you to do all sorts of neat things with the software that you wouldnt have been able to under the EULA.

    11. Re:whats to be done? by Methuseus · · Score: 1

      So, one console, with a few games that provide content or patches, proves that all console games can be patched? thanks for clearing that up flamebait.

      --
      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
    12. Re:whats to be done? by Micro$will · · Score: 1

      A recall is only issued if there are enough complaints AND if the auto manufacturer feels kind enough to issue it. Remember the Ford/Firestone debacle? The laws vary from state to state, but within a certain period, I can bring my new car back to the dealer and they will fix any (reasonable) problem free of charge. If the tranny blows or the door moulding falls off, they fix it, but they won't paint the car if it doesn't match your new shoes. Also, in NY for example, if the problem repeats 3 times and disables the car or is a safety issue, I'm entitled to a new car under the Lemon Law.

      As for software, most stores won't give out refunds, but will be nice enough to let you exchange whatever you bought for something else. If they don't, shop somewhere else.

    13. Re:whats to be done? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because someone obviously feels that theft is right. Nothing justifies stealing.

      Speeding in your car isn't a right either. Matter of fact, it puts human lives at danger, not just a pizza for the software developer.

      Do you ever speed?

    14. Re:whats to be done? by Pxtl · · Score: 1

      Armored Core: Master of Arena for PS1, second sequel to the innovative Armored Core game, had a real showtopper. The splitscreen multiplayer mode didn't work. The designers never noticed that the second player's HUD was broken, making his radar unreadable and giving the first player a massive advantage. This is a crippling bug.

      The reason was totally understandable - AC:MA came on 2 CD's - while they were different parts of the single-player campaign, they were the same CD for multiplayer. This meant if you had 2 PS1's and 2 TV's, you could play over link cable, and would never have to use the splitscreen mode (which, obviously, the playtesters never did).

      I only have 1 playstation. Oops.

    15. Re:whats to be done? by eclipsemgp · · Score: 1

      I don't believe that's what he's saying. No you don't have the right to steal the game, but you may start looking to download it and try it out instead of paying $50 for crap.

    16. Re:whats to be done? by Muerto · · Score: 1

      sure.. but who does that... who actually downloads a game.. plays it... decides they like it.. and then actually goes out and buys it. Very very few people actually do that. It's a good idea and a good defense.. but it's not true.

    17. Re:whats to be done? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how this post is insightful. So because someone sometime somewhere did something wrong, that means nothing is ever wrong? Because people will continue to get away with murder and rape we should consider it ok to murder and rape? You need a little something called perspective. Stealing is wrong. Speeding is wrong. Murder is wrong. They hurt people in different amounts, but yes they are all wrong. I think its cute that you can spew some basic philosophy 101 crap back in the thread and get modded up. We all have to make personal choices and live with them. Some people steal, some people speed, and some people kill, but they are still wrong for doing it and that does not in any way blur right from wrong. Could someone point out the insightful part of his post? Especially the insult about the pizza. You know thats pizza for their families, and clothes, and shelter. They don't do this as a hobby; its their lives. In case you are too dense to pick up on it...nowhere here did I try to defend my driving practices (though you ASSume alot, such as that I even have a car). The point is that right and wrong exists outside the individual.

    18. Re:whats to be done? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      Because people will continue to get away with murder and rape we should consider it ok to murder and rape?

      No. I didn't say that it was ok, and I doubt that you personally have murdered or raped anyone.

      You need a little something called perspective.

      No, this is exactly what my post was intended to do for you. I didn't say that you were wrong, or say anything about whether speeding or pirating software was wrong. I'm really not interested in getting into a long, drawn out argument over something as unresolvable as definitions of right and wrong. My only point was that you should consider your own post.

      It's also kind of ironic that you're blasting me for making unfounded assumptions and lacking perspective (two things that I certainly don't see in my original post) in the very post where you're doing exactly those two things.

  2. too much pressure to rush to market? by jdvernon1976 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm betting on "We HAVE to get this game on the shelves, otherwise we lose money because of X"

    X = in time to be released same weekend as movie
    X = it's already been delayed and it's killing us

    Don't the publishers realize that releasing sub-par games on schedule is MUCH worse than releasing excellent games behind?

    Look at Blizzard - standard-bearer for "when it's done, it'll be fabulous" - Diablo 2, Warcraft 3 are prime examples

    Gamers are lenient on deadlines when the game exceeds expectations, but I'm betting that Matrix Revolutions (if they make a game) won't have quite the same reception....

    1. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1, Troll

      This is not insightful, I'd prefer to mod it naive. The complexity of modern games means there will be some bugs. Everyone here has been saying how great Blizzard is for waiting to release, but have any of their products not required a patch? I think they all have. Didn't Diablo II have a huge problem when it came out that had the potential to burn up a user's CD-ROM? I can quickly browse the Blizzard support pages and find lots of wonderful bugs that the game was shipped with including crashes, progression blocks, etc. There is one right now that states if your character dies while holding a throwing potion, the character file can become corrupted! Oh perfect Blizzard, we don't care because we follow you like sheep. What short and selective memories we have here! In the particular cases of the games mentioned in the article, yes the movie deadline played a big role, but to think that postponing a game until all the "bugs" (which many times are features the user just doesn't understand) are worked out is a good idea or even possible, is naive.

    2. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by slughead · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My website published an article a while ago about this phenomenon, and it's not limited to consoles either. Here's an exerpt (please note that part of this article is a bit dated):

      Nearly two years ago, Civilization III was released for Mac and Windows. Since then the game has gone platinum, and hundreds of 3rd party maps have been released.

      However, none of these maps were made by Mac users. This is because Infogrames has only one person working on a map editor, and though many copies were sold under the pretense that the map editor would be released, they haven't seen fit to fulfill their promise.

      Mac users aren't the only ones to see a decline in quality and features. Infogrames also cut the revolutionary AI that was supposed to go into Civ 3 (now it's just a more processor-heavy Civ 2), as well as multiplayer. Not to worry though, Infogrames has decided to go ahead with the multiplayer patch, however they're charging $30 for it and calling it an "expansion pack." Right, an expansion giving you what was promised by the head of the design department originally. Thanks a ton!


      The same thing happened with Global Operations--It was released unfinished. You see, Global Operations was going to be the counterstrike killer. It had guns modeled more realistically than any FPS, even to this day, it had spectacular visual effects and creative and strategic maps.

      Yes, global ops was probably (and certainly IMO) the best realistic FPS ever made, however it had one small problem: THE NETCODE COULD SUCK A GOLF BALL THROUGH A GARDEN HOSE. It was so bad that it would constantly have bullets disappearing and chunking models, even on the fastest computers and lowest pings. It was so bad, in fact, that the sales were murdered before they could even release the first patch (it died so quick they never did fix it). GameSpot, GameSpy, and several other reviewers pointed out the perfection of this game's non-net features, but had to kill the scores all because of the netcode, and the fact that it was a net-only game.

      I'm sure many also remember GTA III for PC, and how it was also made almost unusable by the crappy engine, even though the designers blamed the complexity of the game (note how well GTA III: vice city runs, contradicting this claim).

      It is a sad state of affairs when game companies think they can get away with this kind of crap. It's probably because the reviews are getting less and less uncorrupted, the audience is getting more and more impulsive, and the hype is getting bigger and bigger.

    3. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh perfect Blizzard, we don't care because we follow you like sheep. What short and selective memories we have here!

      We call them "Slashbots."

    4. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We HAVE to get this game on the shelves, ..."

      And look what happened - they got the game on the shelves, all right. Buggy as heck, but did that stop people from buying? No.

      It's not like the reviews didn't warn us that these would be buggy games. But the publishers realized that getting the game out, even in the buggy state, would make them more money if they made it out when they did, rather than waiting for a better product.

      (Yes, I'm guessing it was the publisher, not the developer. The developers very rarely try to push out unfinished product - I speak from experience here).

    5. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently DNF doesn't follow this axiom in any way.

    6. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I think we're all missing the point. Blizzard can release a patch, while a console publisher CAN'T. So while Bliz can release a relatively bug-free game, then release a couple patches while the obscure bugs come out (personally never experienced a bug in a blizzard game, not counting D2 1.10 beta). While people who buy ETM for whatever console it came out on are stuck with a buggy first release.

      With PC games you can compromise on the overhead, make the game good enough so there are no obvious bugs, and be able to release it on a somewhat viable timeline, then just make patches at whim, as the average PC gamer expects. But on a console, you gotta release on a harsher deadline, and can't patch it with any quality.

      Hence, as console games get more complex, they will get more buggy than PC games. And thus I only play PC games.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    7. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      Too bad you can't retract your entire statement. Console games can and have been patched. It is 2003 you know.

    8. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Omestes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really? Let's say I have a GC, last time I checked they really didn't have any online capability of note, much less patchability, or even an HD. Put a large patch on a memory card isn't viable, too expensive.

      Now I have a PS2, and enough disposable cash the connection kit. K, now I'm looking for patches... Oops, there aren't any, nor any way to store then, unless I have a crap load of cash for memory cards galore, but then again there are no patches.

      Now maybe if I really wanted an Xbox I could patch things. Again counting the fact I want to cough up enough money for the connection kit.

      In conclusion, there is ONE console that can have patches. And I really haven't seen any patches released for Xbox games.

      So, I will not retract my statement, nor would I if I could. Saying that it is POSSIBLE for ONE console out of three isn't really crushing my argument. I'm sure they could be patched, on that one console, but they aren't, reguardless of what year it is.

      Hope I don't pay for succumbing to flamebait.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    9. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      The same thing happened with Global Operations--It was released unfinished. You see, Global Operations was going to be the counterstrike killer. It had guns modeled more realistically than any FPS, even to this day, it had spectacular visual effects and creative and strategic maps.

      The publisher tanked that game. The developers admitted it was unfinished before it was even released, and patches weren't funded (iirc, of course, I don't pay much attention to the 'realistic FPS' genre). Nothing new, just like Eidos pushed the new Tomb Raider out the door to meet their quarter earnings, or like Activision pushed Quake 2 out the door (leading to the current terms where Activision has no say over when an id game is released).

      As for GTA3, well, let's just say I'm glad I bought it for the PS2: not only was it basically bug-free, but it came out well over a year earlier.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    10. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      Flamebait? Both PS2 (yes to a MC) and XBOX games have already been patched. Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist. In fact, acknowledging you don't know about them is really acknowledging that you are unqualified to post in the matter. And if I say you have a Gamecube you should take that as an insult. ;)

    11. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      And just to demonstrate how absolutely wrong you are... I just confirmed with a NGC man that PSO for the Gamecube has also release added content, therefore it is possible to patch games on that console as well. Counter-terrorists win.

    12. Re:too much pressure to rush to market? by amuro98 · · Score: 1

      That doesn't sound like a "patch", it sounds like a "re-release."

      So tell me, then, how do you find out about these "patches"? Calling the developer? Mailing your disc back to them so they can send you a replacement?

      Again, that doesn't sound like a patch, nor do I think that 99% of the owners are going to know about it. After all, who bothers filling out those registration cards anyways?

      And what does the company do about all the defective copies in warehouses and on store shelves?

  3. Lara Croft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Lara fell through invisible gaps in the street, walked through invisible gaps in walls, and refused to walk up stairs that she was supposed to be able to climb." "

    Let me know when you get the buggy one where Lara has invisible clothes, right buddy?

    1. Re:Lara Croft by BTWR · · Score: 2, Funny

      I guess you never downloaded Nude Raider, the naked patch to the original Tomb Raider

      Mmmmm.... pixelated boobies...

  4. Well.. by icemax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Enter the Matrix was a rush job by a studio that never should have gotten the contract. Shiny's biggest accomplishments (Earth Worm Jim, MDK) are no where near the great games put out by the first two studios contracted by the Matrix producers (SquareSoft et al). Also, Tomb Raider was an abomination to let out the door. The controls are terrible, and the game is buggy. A beautiful looking game however. Even with that said, these games are in the minority. Alot of good bug-free games came out this year

    --


    __________
    Love conquers all... except CANCER
    1. Re:Well.. by op51n · · Score: 1

      Yep, certainly agree with you on ETM. Shouldn't have been released on the date it was, and yea probably shouldn't have been given to Shiny anyway, who even with good ideas (Messiah) failed to make great games post Earthworm Jim.

      I just hope the next Matrix games will work out.

    2. Re:Well.. by Schnapple · · Score: 1

      For that matter, ETM was in this neat little spot where the Wal-Mart crowd went and snatched it up en masse as soon as it came out. Wal-Mart of course has no take-back policy on games. You bought it, you keep it (unless it's defective, in which you trade it for a different copy of the same game). So it's impossible to punish the game companies by demanding their money back (or at least not through most retail channels), and most people won't bother anyway.

    3. Re:Well.. by caitsith01 · · Score: 1

      MDK was a great game.

      It was one of the first 3D games that had real character, really imaginative level design, and an overall 'feel' that made it really fun to play. It was in the spirit of great SNES and NeoGeo games - a crazy adventure/platformer with lots of different enemies, amazing level design and most of all fun gameplay.

      --
      Read Pynchon.
    4. Re:Well.. by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      For that matter, ETM was in this neat little spot where the Wal-Mart crowd went and snatched it up en masse as soon as it came out. Wal-Mart of course has no take-back policy on games. You bought it, you keep it (unless it's defective, in which you trade it for a different copy of the same game). So it's impossible to punish the game companies by demanding their money back (or at least not through most retail channels), and most people won't bother anyway.

      That's not just Wal-Mart, it's every game retailer in the US, and most of them won't even take a defective product back more than 7 days after the purchase date.

      That being said, just go to Wal-Mart with your EtM game and tell them it's defective, regardless of whether you bought it there or not. 2 days later go to another Wal-Mart and return the defective copy you got from the other Wal-Mart, and so on. Maybe they'll get the hint after they get a few dozen defective copies that are just the same as every other copy they sent out (in other words, defective).

      Of course, I feel obligated to mention that I haven't come upon any bugs in EtM on the XBox, though it may be simply because I only played it for a few hours.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
  5. Pit frost! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Oh wait, i have a f*cking bug. You shouldn't release so fast, you know...

  6. Heh by SoVeryWrong · · Score: 1

    Well, most people don't realize that the game is buggy as hell until they've already dropped money down on it.
    Now that Electronics Boutique (among others) have started revoking their return policies you're pretty much screwed if you purchase a lemon.

  7. We let them do it on the PC, what did we expect? by LordYUK · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How many of us have ever bought a game on the PC and the FIRST thing we do is check for patches?

    Yet we still buy them the first day they are out, accepting this as common practice.

    Is it any REAL surprise that companies would start pushing games such as "the matrix" (der, people bought that because it was THE MATRIX, its not THAT good, although I wouldnt call it "bad" either... its just, "meh") with bugs? These games will sell, and sell well, based on name alone.

    I have 0 faith in all companies, save Blizzard. At least they havent completely fscked me yet (although the latest ACCESS VIOLATION error from WC3 TFT is starting to REALLY piss me off)...

    --
    This is my sig. Its pathetic.
  8. bugs.. by Muerto · · Score: 1

    the main reason there are so many bugs in console games lately is because budgets are getting slashed... A company has less time to get a game out and is forced to do it with less employees who are getting paid less. Those employees are not going to work as hard as they would if they felt that they were getting paid what they were worth. The economy trickles down.

    1. Re:bugs.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That has got to be the lamest sig I've ever read...

    2. Re:bugs.. by MyDixieWrecked · · Score: 1
      Isn't it also because the games are being written in much higher level languages, nowadays (C++ as opposed to straight assembly), so the coders usually aren't as l33t as say, the original NES coders? That's the idea that I've had lately.

      am I wrong?

      --



      ...spike
      Ewwwwww, coconut...
    3. Re:bugs.. by Radius9 · · Score: 1

      I am in the video game industry, and I have to say that the development teams themselves are not the ones at fault. If I am working on a title, its not left up to me when something is considered done and when its not. I keep submitting it to a test department, and I keep getting a list of bugs that I fix in the next release that then goes back to test. This cycle continues until some producer says "Ship it". In the highly competitive video game industry, where development teams are the critical path to completion and there are too few developers and too many games, salaries for developers have been going up not down, so lack of motiviation by the teams has not been an issue. My guess as to what causes these problems is some guy somewhere decides that he wants a game with X and Y features. He then decides it needs to be done by Z date, after which he hires a development team who has never been asked whether the specified dates and/or feature lists are reasonable.

    4. Re:bugs.. by Muerto · · Score: 1

      Thanks for clarification.. It is good to know that the developers are not at fault, and that they are being well paid. Games are getting more complex and developers should be paid accordingly. I am not suprised that things get out the door before they are complete. I work with a development team and we are often forced to implement projects that are not ready to be implemented. Our sales force also sells products that don't exist.. and we have to scramble to produce them.. sigh..

  9. Probably due to a couple of factors: by MBraynard · · Score: 2, Insightful
    1) The increasing complexity of the games on consoles means more opportunity for bugs. Any programmer knows that the more complex a program becomes, the more likely bugs are.

    2) With Enter the Matrix, there finish date was not determined by the status of the game but by the realease date of the movie (they were meant to come out at about the same time). I suspect the release of the Croft title corresponds to the new movie, though I am not sure.

    3) Consoles have never really been bug free. Granted, they had a much better track record than PC games (since PC developers always figured they could patch). However, I remember even Super Mario Brothers and Donkie Kong having minor unintended glitches/exploits.

    1. Re:Probably due to a couple of factors: by phoenix_rizzen · · Score: 1

      Heh heh, it was so fun running around SMB with Mario being small, but with fire power. Anytime you shoot, he'd grow big, shoot the fireball, then shrink again. :) Sucked that you couldn't break blocks though.

      Oh, and having bowser kill you, but not losing a life and still finishing the level was always fun. :D

    2. Re:Probably due to a couple of factors: by ae0nflx · · Score: 0, Troll

      Ah yes, the illustrious SMB3 saved game glitch that let you access the BIOS and install Linux, how could I forget it...

      All it took was a few drops of solder.

    3. Re:Probably due to a couple of factors: by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      You didn't want to mention getting too many lives using the turtle shell exploit then dying results in a crash?

      100% repeatable and with no saving, thats just brutal.

    4. Re:Probably due to a couple of factors: by phoenix_rizzen · · Score: 1

      Right, forgot about that one. First time that happened I flipped. Had umpteen lives, then died ... Game Over. WHAT!! :)

      Had to try and figure out just how long to stay on that turtle to get enough lives to find everything in the game, without getting so many the game would end.

      There are others, too, like World -1, the underwater level that never ends.

    5. Re:Probably due to a couple of factors: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SHUT UP

    6. Re:Probably due to a couple of factors: by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      I suspect the release of the Croft title corresponds to the new movie, though I am not sure.

      If that were the case, they would've had at least a couple more weeks to work on the title. There is an older Slashdot story that gives the reasons for it's rushed release:
      http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid =03/06/18/ 067235&mode=thread&tid=127&tid=186&tid=206&tid=212

      Already delayed twice, 'Lara Croft: The Angel of Darkness' is slotted for a release on June 20th. But that's looking less likely.. the game has to be in stores by June 30th in order for the company to recognize sales [estimated to be 1.5 to 2.5 million units] for its current financial year."

      The game didn't look like it would be ready for release by the 20th, but Eidos needed the sales by the 30th to meet their estimates for the fiscal year. SOSDD

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
  10. making profit from buggy games? by grifta · · Score: 1

    Recently I read on the box for Knights of the Old Republic that if you have Xbox and the components to connect to the internet with it, you can get patches and updates with it. Seems to me that they will just let flawed games out and expect users to fall into thinking the same as PC gamers, that a patch will come out and we can get a fix that way, instead of actually buying a game worth the $50.

  11. Steps to a buggy game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    1) Make game announcement at E3 before the game has started
    2) Promise un-realistic features and an un-realistic release date.
    3) Push back release date about 5 times.
    4) Publisher forces companey to release now so they can get their cash with half of promised content.
    5) Profit.

    1. Re:Steps to a buggy game by caitsith01 · · Score: 1

      I think you mean:

      Business plan for console games

      1. Make game announcement at E3 before the game has started, promising un-realistic features and an un-realistic release date.
      2. ???
      3. Profit!

      --
      Read Pynchon.
  12. Join me my brothers and sisters by ArmorFiend · · Score: 2, Funny

    I hereby boycott all non-GPL'ed console games that I haven't already bought. I'm out of the console market. I'm applying the same logic to MS-hosted systems. Until I get my $ back, or I get Freedom of the source, I'm out of these propritary shit-holes.

    mmmm.... apt-get install copter-commander...

  13. Of course, us PC gamers just copy the games ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And get pissed off if the patch won't work on our cracked version or if it requires a CD again.

  14. bugs and features by i0wnzj005uck4 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm surprised the XBox hasn't had more buggy games, considering the ability of games to save patches to the hard disk. I think that was the first thing people feared when they heard that MS was putting a hard disk inside.

    Unfortunately, this may be the way of the future. The PS2 has a hard disk attachment that Sony has yet to push, but you can be sure the PS3 will have one bundled in, along with some sort of subscription service to go along with it a la XBox Live. Of course, this service will provide new levels along with patches for poorly-done games, just as XBox Live will eventually do.

    The unfortunate side of things is that most gamers don't finish games, and only get to see the single, linear quest the developers set out for them. Developers don't test the side quests or places out of normal reach because they rightly assume those places aren't as important. Even in the original Tomb Raider there were a number of places Lara should not have been able to hold on to, but could, and places that looked like handholds which weren't. Those weren't bugs; just design flaws.

    --
    - Cloud
  15. bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by pezpunk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    look, we're not talking about pac-man anymore. every year the games and the systems involved get more and more complex, and the potential for bugs increases geometrically. consoles have been able to keep major bugs from becoming common by limiting the variables -- that is, using a standard system to play the game on -- but the system is getting very complex. it used to be, a game developer team had to write all their own code. nowadays, they use drivers and game engines that may or may not have major bugs or incompatibilities built in, even on the consoles they were written for.

    show-stopping bugs like crashes or even just annoying gameplay bugs should never make it to the final product, to be sure, but crappy games based on a movie license are certainly not a NEW phenomenon. anyone remember E.T.: The Extra Terrestrial for the 2600? of course you do.

    there are plenty of console games out there that are basically (major) bug free, and economic darwinism is still at work weeding out the crappy titles from the stellar ones, except where an established license gets in the way.

    --
    i could live a little longer in this prison
    1. Re:bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by beta21 · · Score: 1

      I understand the games are getting more and more complex. I think its more a culture of the publishing house.

      For instance take something like Mario Sunshine or Zelda WindWaker. These games are quite complex (sure nothing like morrowind) but they look great and are bug free.

      I really belive it to be a culture of the company rather than the complexity of the game.

    2. Re:bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by Mike+Hawk · · Score: 1

      Um, those are very simple games you name. Simple in terms of difficulty and simple in terms of design. Not that that is a bad thing necessarily, but there just isn't that much to do in those games. Why do you say they are "quite complex" then qualify it to say they are not complex?

      If you don't believe that all Nintendo games are simple games, why did they make the controller have one main giant button? Again, not that simplicity is bad, but those are poor examples of complex games.

      I don't happen to like Enter the Matrix, but the number of different things to do or that can happen at any given moment is gi-normous when compared to any Nintendo game.

      Also, I have found bugs in those games. I am afraid of posting negative things about Nintendo because this guy Nintendoctor mods me down everytime I do. Suffice to say that the bugs exist, you just choose to let them slide because you like the game.

    3. Re:bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      complexity is increasing geometrically? Like triangles and pentagons?

      I think you mean exponentially. ;)

      ...spike

    4. Re:bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by Acidic_Diarrhea · · Score: 1
      You piss and moan a lot, don't you? Just calm down pal. Nothing reported on Slashdot should make you this (and by "this" I am referring to your numerous posts concerning this article) upset. Have a beer, get a girlfriend, calm down. You sound like the type of guy to really just lose it one day because I am sure that in real life, you walked around with all your witty little lines bottled up and neither the nerve or will to let them out at people. It's sad really.

      Let's hug!

      --
      I hate liberals. If you are a liberal, do not reply.
    5. Re:bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      If you don't believe that all Nintendo games are simple games, why did they make the controller have one main giant button?

      The more I use the Nintendo controllers, the more I realize this is just good design, and has nothing to do with whether or not the games are simple (though I'm sure Nintendo has a philosophy of making simple games, or at least games that are simple to learn).

      If you keep your thumb over the A button (the giant green one), you can basically roll it to any of the other buttons on the face of the controller (except the start button, which you have to move your hand a bit to get to) with very little movement, and you can discern which button it is by touch (based on it's shape , size, and location relative to the A button).

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    6. Re:bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by Zeriel · · Score: 1

      Anyone who claims GC games are not complex has never played Metroid Prime. Arguably the single best console game EVAR, IMHO.

      My tastes may not agree with yours. Don't mod me down for that. =P

      --
      "America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
    7. Re:bugs are inevitable as complexity rises by jafuser · · Score: 1

      Plain and simple:

      With the ubiquity of the Internet, game publishers have become far too addicted to patching. That phenomenon is starting to spill over from the PC market into the console markets.

      Only the publishers with the discipline to look at their long-term interests will expend the proper effort to ensure a quality product.

      --
      Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
  16. This is not new by DrWho520 · · Score: 1

    This is not a new thing, guys. Atari had a trillion games released for it from krap developers. Result? Krap and Bugs. This is what happens when you let everyone and their mother license your product.

    --
    The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
    1. Re:This is not new by jwilloug · · Score: 1

      That's why today's console makers don't let everyone and their mother produce games for their consoles. They haven't since the NES days just after the Atari crash (remember the Seal of Quality?). So why are they relaxing their standards now, and why are we letting them?

  17. Thanks, dude! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I guess you never downloaded Nude Raider,

    Thanks dude! I saw that and thought it was the name of a new SUV, and I never downloaded it. I owe ya one!

    1. Re:Thanks, dude! by BTWR · · Score: 0, Troll

      oh! I get it! because I used a descriptive phrase after the title (the nude patch...), and because you're so genius, I was of course being redundant! Thanks! And brilliant use of the brand-name "Range Rover!" You're right! "Nude Raider" DOES sound a lot like like "Range Rover!"

      Tell ya what... I have a neuroanatomy exam coming up. You're such a GENIUS, I was hoping maybe you could help me study.

      Seriously... I can't stop laughing and wiping away the tears! Nude Raider = SUV!

      FUCKING BRILLIANT!!!

  18. We can't return opened boxes by Rares+Marian · · Score: 1

    Store policies prevent users from being able to return opened boxes.

    You can't test what you can't open.

    Any boxes someone doesn't buy are assumed as lack of interest not displeasure.

    Every game involves different situations so there are no trends such as shoddy coding to be gleaned.

    --
    The message on the other side of this sig is false.
    1. Re:We can't return opened boxes by Sulihin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is why I tend to a) check online reviews of games and b) rent a game from Blockbuster before purchasing it. Of course it gives more profit to Blockbuster and doesn't really hurt the game sales much since Blockbuster will tend to buy more of a frequently rented game, but it does save me $$'s if the game sucks.

    2. Re:We can't return opened boxes by CoolMoDee · · Score: 1

      You can returned opened games, just tell them it wouldn't work on your machine and that you think it might have been a bad copy, and want an exchange, then come back the next day/later in the day and return it (unopened of course). I know this works, I have done it with games(Tribes2)/oses(WinXP,Redhat 6.2 Pro,OS X.1) (and no, I DIDN'T burn a copy of them while I had them)

      --
      Jisho - A Japanese English German Russian French Dictionary for the rest of us.
  19. complexity and schedules by gl4ss · · Score: 1

    all that there is to it.

    it's pretty easy to test a nes game in and out totally.

    but when the engine is a patchwork of glue and butter mixed with cardboard and some carrots, it's no wonder there's bugs, maybe they're even found that they are there but because the complexity it might not be very simple that where the bugs really are, especially if the engine was bought from another company and some other company is doing the artwork and some monkey is doing the scripting and the mentality of fix later is in the air. after this maze comes the schedule and the product is magically ready when it's supposed to be.

    the modern games companies would be in great need of 'this sucks' testing department that would test the games after the 'final' gold version came bout, and have the absolute power to say that the product sucks and should not be wasted any money on bringing to the market as it is, many pc games come out with showstoppers that are so hard to miss that it is really a wonder anybody in their right mind released it, and the same companies and groups are doing the console games now(they are more and more of the same) it's not really a wonder that these glitches get into console games either.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    1. Re:complexity and schedules by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      the modern games companies would be in great need of 'this sucks' testing department that would test the games after the 'final' gold version came bout, and have the absolute power to say that the product sucks and should not be wasted any money on bringing to the market

      The gold version is considered final because it's sent for production. The 'this sucks' testing department has to approve the title before it hits gold. Some companies just don't have decent testing, or bypass it to meet a date.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
  20. Re:We let them do it on the PC, what did we expect by aridhol · · Score: 3, Insightful
    On a computer, there are many variations that need to be supported. The programmer has no idea what hardware you have, what apps are running in the background, etc. All of these can have a detrimental effect on your gaming experience.

    Consoles, however, should be identical. The X-Box they test on is exactly the same as the X-Box that you play it on. This means that they should be able to test much more for console games than for computer games. There is no excuse for this trend.

    --
    I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
  21. Consumers like crap by diospadre · · Score: 1

    The fact of the matter is that developers know they can get away with releasing buggy crap products. Sequels that have built a huge name-recognition factor will sell miullions to people who get their gaming news only from PS2 commercials. They run out and buy Enter the Matrix, Tomb Raider 12, Army Men 14, etc. The devs know that cutting the debugging and QA budget will save them more money than the remaining bugs will cost them in lower sales.

  22. I can understand... by Eluding+Reality · · Score: 2, Insightful

    how some bugs exist and to a certain extent I sympathise with developers. The range of not just hardware but also drivers available for each piece of hardware, make it simply impossible to guarantee a bug free game, something that can be said for any program but I think multiplied in the gaming industry.

    But saying that I have to agree that lately some appalling games have made it to the shelves, with Enter the Matrix leading the way. I have never been as disappointed with a game as I was with EtM, I am a huge matrix fan and I would have preffered they kept the launch back, it actually would have been a good way to fill in the months leading up to revolutions and could have been a far more solid game but its money that talks these days, not quality and even worse, not gameplay quality.

    Enter the Matrix though was not just a buggy game, it was no fun, if you want to see what it should have been like, get yourself a copy of Max Payne, which despite its age looks as good as EtM and download the mod MAX PAYNE: Kung Fu Edition . This is exactly how EtM should have played and this is a mod made by one person, not a giant software house.

    Anyway, I could rant on for hours about the state of games today, you get the idea...

    1. Re:I can understand... by jsewell · · Score: 1

      Dude, the article is about CONSOLE games not PC games. PC games I can see giving slack due to drivers/lack of consistent hardware platform.

      The whole point of a console is that there is no variation and it's a frozen patform. No excuse for bugs there I'm afraid.

    2. Re:I can understand... by Eluding+Reality · · Score: 1

      I know, sorry for getting a bit offtopic, just got to reading some of the comments and thinking about EtM(which I have for the PC) and had to have a rant :)

      There is as you say no excuse for bugs in console games, but it is going to happen more and more from now on, especially with the rise of internet enabled consoles with integrated hard drives. The only console manufacturer that truely cares about game quality is Nintendo, but it results in fewer games and higher prices, therefore they cannot perform as well. If the next gen console war results in Nintendo going the same route as Sega, it would be the worst thing to ever happen to the industry. I'm going offtopic again though and like I said, I could type for hours :)

  23. Um... by Palshife · · Score: 1

    "..judging from the sales of these.. titles, enough of you guys just aren't punishing the companies for releasing sub-par products to make a difference"

    Yeah, damn us for not identifying bugs with clairvoyance!

    --
    Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
    1. Re:Um... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I concur. You can't tell that the game is crap until you try it (unless you trust reviews). Unless you rented it first, or borrowed someone else's, by the time you realize that it's garbageware the company already has your money.

  24. New Avenue for Patching... by felonious · · Score: 1

    Since the newer console games seem to be buggier than usual I realized there could be a reason for this happening.

    Xbox and PS2 are now network capable and you can dl new content for games and such so what about patches to fix games that were released and will be released in beta or even alpha states? The companies now have this option unlike the past so why don't they use it? Do they already use it?
    Maybe this is the reason they released their software before it was ready since they have the option to patch it now? I know it's pushed out the door regardless but they should patch what isn't working or accept returns on said games.

    I can actually see the day coming where it's a pay-per-patch option only and I doubt people would bitch much. They'd just take it dry as always. It's sad since we have let the power switch to the developers and conglomerates instead of voting with our wallets.

    The problem is people buy regardless of the games state i.e. beta state so they have no reason to wait until all bugs are released. Most consumers are conditioned to expect this lack of quality now so they have no one to blame but themselves.

    --
    You aren't free to do anything, until you've lost everything.
    1. Re:New Avenue for Patching... by caitsith01 · · Score: 1

      "Xbox and PS2 are now network capable and you can dl new content for games and such."

      Question - short of releasing a version with a DVD burner, how can you patch PS2 games?

      --
      Read Pynchon.
    2. Re:New Avenue for Patching... by demi · · Score: 1

      You could write your game to download and self-patch every time it starts up, even cache the updates if you have a disk in your console.

      Not saying it's a good idea, but it could be done.

      It might be simpler to just have valid purchasers get a new disc mailed to them--surely pressing a new disc can't be that expensive. I for one would pay a nominal additional fee for a bug-fix release of AoD.

      --
      demi
    3. Re:New Avenue for Patching... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the patch is small, you store it on the memory card.
      If the network is fast, the game patches itself on boot.
      Barring those, you pay extra for the PS2 HDD.

  25. Bugs & Politics by starlabs · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Don't forget that publishing games on a console platform has as much to do with politics as the game itself.

    Many big publishers (Eidos, Acclaim, Activision, etc) are given what I call "slack points". Basically these are allocated to them for a few games that they can use to push through QA on a "fast track". They typically use these on big-name games (Tomb Raider, anyone?) and *especially* if these big games need to be out by a hard date, such as quarterlies, Xmas, license coincide launches (ie moveies) or console launch dates. (Launch dates are a little bit different because QA is a bit tougher than usual - you don't want your launch titles to be too buggy!!)

    In addition to slack points, these big publishers will also use whatever else influence they have to push a big game through. Nowadays it's all about $$$ - if a bug is not a showstopper, well lots of people are willing to look the other way (anyone remember Digital Polyphony's GT3 not being 100% finished? Lots of examples).

  26. Let's blame it on... by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 0, Redundant

    pirating games

  27. Take it up the wallet.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    "judging from the sales of these... titles, enough of you guys just aren't punishing the companies for releasing sub-par products to make a difference"?

    You better believe I'm punishing the companies in the only way it can hurt -- $$$. The last game I bought was Moo3, and what a freaking DISASTER that's been! It took, what, five months before the game was (challenging/enjoyable/playable)!?! As far as I'm concerned, I'll try before I buy from now on, mkay?

    (Well, judging from Gamespy's review of KOTOR, I might pick that up in October, but not before I scour the Bioware boards in regards to its length and playability...)

    1. Re:Take it up the wallet.... by rhuntley12 · · Score: 1

      Awesome game, just going through the main quest and rushing it took me 30 hours, my friends at 55 trying to do every quest. AWESOME game. Couple slowdowns on xbox, and one major glitch I found, but easy to fix. Really great game. I'd go so far as to say best game I've played in the last 2 years.

  28. Punishment? by TTop · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "judging from the sales of these... titles, enough of you guys just aren't punishing the companies for releasing sub-par products to make a difference"

    How do you know a console game is buggy before you buy it? Okay, maybe you know a good website or something, but does the general public? No. The general public buys a console game expecting it to work without bugs.

    So how do you punish the gamemakers? Chances are you probably can't return the game -- it's considered software, so most major retailers won't accept a return unless it's defective and in that case will only exchange it for the same item -- which doesn't help because all of the same title will have the same bug.

    So what do you do? Don't buy that publisher's next title? I suppose, but then it's a little harder to make a linkage between the original purchase and slow sales on a subsequent title. Maybe just write a letter to the publisher complaining and letting them know you won't be buying their next title. But a letter isn't exactly punishment, is it?

    1. Re:Punishment? by Dirttorpedo · · Score: 1

      Yes return the game. I have returned games in the past. You may only get store credit though.

    2. Re:Punishment? by Fluffy+the+Cat · · Score: 1

      Chances are you probably can't return the game -- it's considered software, so most major retailers won't accept a return unless it's defective and in that case will only exchange it for the same item -- which doesn't help because all of the same title will have the same bug.

      Under your local laws, perhaps. The UK's consumer protection laws let you make this sort of return, and I've done it several times.

    3. Re:Punishment? by ZzzzSleep · · Score: 1
      Quoth TTop
      How do you know a console game is buggy before you buy it? Okay, maybe you know a good website or something, but does the general public? No. The general public buys a console game expecting it to work without bugs.
      This is why I love MetaCritic
  29. I just had an idea... by Recoil_42 · · Score: 1

    would it be possible to file a class-action suit against EA (or similar) for selling defective products?

    --


    Newsie, Moderator, www.tauniverse.com
  30. Matrix has a 'reason' for its weakness by quantax · · Score: 1

    When the Matrix game was released, I was dissappointed, not at the game but at the developer Shiny Entertainment. For those who don't know, Shiny has brought us such games as Earthworm Jim and Sacrifice, both which were and still are great games. When I heard that Matrix sucked, especially due to major technical issues, I wondered why Shiny would do such a thing especially since they've never slacked on a project before. If you look at the schedule however, it explains a lot. Look at it this way: movies are usually very strict on release dates and its rare that a movie will be pushed back once a date has been announced. Video games on the other hand are well known for coming within days of gold status and then being pushed back weeks, sometimes months. If you make a video game based off a movie, especially a 'pop' movie like the Matrix, you are forced to work under the deadline of the movie. And believe it or not, movies are easier to 'cheat' on by using simple technology tricks in place of other more time-consuming methods. Code on the other hand does not deal in tricks and cheats, its either all or nothing, or a buggy piece of crap. Publishers these days wield a lot of power; when your console game craps out repeatedly you can garentee 70% of the time that it was the publisher and not slapshod work on the part of the developers.

    --
    "What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
  31. I don't get it????? by JGag21 · · Score: 0

    You know what's funny. You'll have these games in which the bugs are so bad that all people do is bitch about how they ruin the game. But at the same time, you have games like Halo and GTA, where people get so bored that they spend countless hours of game play finding glitches and documenting them for sites like GameFaqs. So dare I say, some people out there actually like the glitches, mind you that they don't interfere with the game play. On the other hand, it's a damn shame stores have the worst if any return policy on games. Why is it that if I am honestly so disappointed in a game that it gets more depreciation than a car when I go to return it, yet if I don't like a pair of tighty whiteys, I can return those, skid marks intact?

  32. same as it ever was... by August_zero · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And here we have a case of the "good-old days syndrome"

    "When I was your age.... All our software worked! There was no patching and freezing or any of that! None of this 6 years in development crap you kids today put up with"

    While I won't argue for the quality of a lot of the games that get put out (3DO and Acclaim, I'm looking at you two) I would hardly say that the games of yesteryear were bug-free or really any more functional than the games of today.

    Are games buggy? Yes

    "But super mario brothers never froze when I was playing my NES" you say. And I ask "How many of Nintendo's games today freeze up all the time? Zero" The companies that produce crap, have produced crap since the dawn of time. Those that have been commited to quality, have for the most part stayed with that creed.

    Is this a new phenomenon? No, we are just a lot more likely to notice and or hear about it from others than we used to.

    --
    On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
  33. No excuse by bafraid2b1 · · Score: 1

    As an avid programmer I believe there is no excuse for major bugs in console games because they can't be patched. This doesn't mean that its allowable for PC games to have major bugs either, but at least those can be fixed. Console games need to have an even more rigorous testing process then their PC counterparts for that very reason.

    I've had my own experience with defective console software: NBA 2k3 for the GameCube. 2k3 freezes without warning in the middle of a game. The worst part about it is that the freeze is so severe that the reset button on the cube doesn't even work. While Sega has acknowledged the problem they can't seem to figure it out. And curiously they aren't developing anymore sports games for the GameCube. I've resolved never to buy a sega product again because of it.

  34. Ummm... by erydo · · Score: 3, Funny
    ...walked through invisible gaps in walls...


    Many of us refer to those as 'doors'.
  35. Blame Reviewers and Consumers by SpookWarfare · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Grand Theft Auto: Vice City was riddled with bugs. Reviwers responded by giving it perfect scores. Consumers responded by buying millions of copies. Who wants to bet that buggy games are going to become more and more commom.

    1. Re:Blame Reviewers and Consumers by Painaxl · · Score: 1

      While Vice City was an awesome game, I do agree with Spook above that a game like that sets the standard for what people are willing to play with.

      It is a truly epic game, but it does have quite a lot of bugs. I realize, it's to be expected in such a huge world, but it hardly justified everyone's giving it perfect scores. The consitency of the "little falling" bug that drips away the life alone bugged the hell out of me during the game.

    2. Re:Blame Reviewers and Consumers by SpookWarfare · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the backup Painaxl. It can be lonely being the only guy who doesn't think that GTA: Vice City is the epitome of perfection.

  36. Zelda- link to the past: GBA by MyDixieWrecked · · Score: 1
    There's a major bug in the 5th (maybe it's the 6th, I forget) palace where you step on a button but it doesn't push. I spent 4 days trying to pass this palace to no avail and have given up on it. It royally sucks. I'm upset. I love zelda and looked forward to beating it, especially since this is the first zelda title I've played since the NES's Adventure of Link.

    Anyone else have that problem?

    --



    ...spike
    Ewwwwww, coconut...
    1. Re:Zelda- link to the past: GBA by Radix37 · · Score: 1

      If you mean where I think you mean, that's not a bug. It's a button that only works when something is palced on it to hold it down.

      --
      Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!
    2. Re:Zelda- link to the past: GBA by MyDixieWrecked · · Score: 1

      hmmmmm, let me try it... I don' think there was anything to push/pull in that room to put on it, but let me doublecheck..... playing...... oh shit... I had to pull the statue's tongue. stupid ice palace. now I got the big key. thx for making me play again! yay!

      --



      ...spike
      Ewwwwww, coconut...
  37. Industry correction needed by AvantLegion · · Score: 3, Informative
    The gaming industry needs to "correct" itself and enforce much tighter quality control on their products.

    Imagine if movies hit the theater with scenes missing, or even just sections that don't display right, or have faulty audio, etc. Moviegoers would revolt.

    As gaming heads more mainstream, the tolerance of the public to deal with technical failures will drop.

    I'm currently playing Midtown Madness 3 on the Xbox. Great game, but the custom soundtrack option has HUGE bugs (one involves a failure to randomize - playback just goes in reverse order through the playlist on some occasions, and another bug involves the soundtrack getting "stuck" on a single song). What trade school dropout programmer can't implement a simple randomizing algorithm?

    Luckily, a "fix" is supposedly coming (downloadable through Xbox Live). But it shouldn't come to that.

    In some cases, with games like Enter The Matrix, the push to release a game on 3 or 4 different platforms at once is a fool's quest that leads to crap like this. Any game that tries a simultaneous multiplatform release in a short dev time will end up like this.

    Of course, the biggest problem is a million or so idiot customers bought it anyway.

    1. Re:Industry correction needed by Scorchio · · Score: 1

      Agreed, but the problem doesn't necessarily lie in the QC process, the whole development process needs looking at.

      Compare with 1993. As others have pointed out, the hardware and software complexities have increased massively over the past ten years. Processer speed, graphics rendering abilities, memory and storage media sizes, and - more importantly - games players expectations are all much, much higher.

      Development team size have gone from 1 programmer and 1 artist to teams of 30 or 40+. Here's where the problem is. There's been a fairly quick shift in game development from being a single coder hacking job, to a large team software project. These projects need far more planning, design and control, especially if they are to be completed in a development time that has only perhaps doubled. It's this move from a back-bedroom programming to full-on commercial software engineering that's caught a lot of development companies off guard. Many have failed to adjust the development process accordingly, resulting in insufficient design and planning, leading to buggy software and game design flaws, which in turn forces rewrites, causing slipped release dates and 12+ hour working days and so on.

      Fixing the development process won't magic away all bugs and problems, but it will help. Unfortunately, many of those former back-bedroom programmers and artists are now in management positions and don't or won't consider that bashing out code from 9am on day 1 of a new project isn't the best approach...

      The games industry should be examining the processes involved in non-games software development. There are lessons to be learned, and they need to be learned soon.

    2. Re:Industry correction needed by danila · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is that you are wrong about moviegoers. I am not really a movie buff, I don't watch that many movies and usually do it only once. However, there are examples of bugs almost as serious as missing scenes.

      Enter The Two Towers. One of the most expensive movies ever, right? One of the most quality films? Wrong. Even if you forget about unbelievably crappy script, it has bugs. :) After the Helm Deep battle and the Isengard battle were won, we are treated to the scene of Eowyn jumping on Aragorn and hugging him (supposedly signifying happiness about winning the battle). Well... not only is that scene taken from the episode BEFORE the battle, it is actually taken from an EARLIER edit of the movie, which didn't have Aragorn falling from the cliff (because the pendant can be easily seen). This goes of course with using footage of Eowyn looking in a completely different direction in the Aragorn-Legolas scene (arrival to HD). Eowyn's scene is again from the earlier edit, when she is looking in a direction different from what the director wants the user to believe.

      This isn't your usual goof, such as continuity error or a plot hole. No, this really shows that the director is content (so much for realism) with taking a completely wrong scene and using it somewhere in hopes that nobody will notice that.

      Or take Matrix: Reloaded and their overhyped highway chase. Why, oh why the windshield remains intact after one of the twins shoots at it with a machinegun? We can clearly see the bulletholes on the hood and on the roof forming a line, we can actually see the car when it is fired at, but the windshild remains intact. Was additional CGI too expensive? Or is it just sloppy work?

      So nobody really cares about quality. Or, to phrase it differently, nobody gives a fucking shit about it.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    3. Re:Industry correction needed by AvantLegion · · Score: 1
      None of those even come close to being as intrusive as the bugs that plague many games.

      Sorry, but I don't think your comparison holds. A winshield remaining intact is in no way even close to being comparable as, say, a scene of the movie entirely missing, or one part of the movie that causes the reel to fall off the machine.

    4. Re:Industry correction needed by danila · · Score: 1

      You must be careful when using analogies. The end result of the movie creation process is a film that is shown from start to end on more or less standartized equipment. The game, on the other hand, is extremely interactive and plays on extremely varied hardware. So the nature of "bugs" is completely different in two cases.

      What is the same is the attitude of the producers towards the customers - they don't give a shit about quality, they treat consumers like idiots and all they care about is money (yeah, that's an overgeneralization, sure).

      You can look at the newspapers in the same way. While it is impossible to make a newspaper crash (the crashes are a unique characteristic of electronic devices), the "bugs" are numerous. The editors will happily place a photo of Stockholm in an article about Finland, they don't care to check the numbers, they don't care about facts and they don't care about making any sense.

      If you insist on making a very direct analogy, then you can say that there are bugs only in games. But if you understand that mediums are different and the exact nature of the problems we encounter is also different, then you will immediately see the simularities as well. Then you will realise that there are bugs in games, movies, newspapers, even in cars.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
  38. Patch it later. MUCH later. by Mulletproof · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've noticed this becoming an increasingly alarming problem on the Xbox, and part of it is due to the PC port mentality they seem to have. This was especially apparent in games like Morrowind and Ghost Recon. We're talk roach motel. Live games have seen this problem with a vengence as the "patch it later" menatlity of the PC is taking increasing hold. Not only are they shipped with obvious bugs, but timely patching is a fanciful illusion. Honestly, I laugh everytime I hear somebody mention a patch for a Live game.

    I wish I could say it was getting better, but this is one area where the PC seems to be overrunning the console and not vice versa.

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
  39. It's easy to blame the game companies... by sandalwood · · Score: 1

    But unfortunately, I agree that the blame here lies solely with the consumer. Not YOU, reader, but just the average consumer -- the same one who goes to see the latest idiotic "blockbuster" movie without having read any reviews.

    Game companies are businesses, and they don't have any obligation to make awesome games. Their obligation is to make games that sell, and to sell, they sacrifice everything else: time, money, quality, anything.

    To the people who say that delayed games that are great sell better than crappy games that are on-time: this simply not true for licensed properties, especially ones based on movies. There's only a very small window of opportunity for a movie-license game to worm its way into people's wallets, and that is while the multimillion dollar movie campaign itself is arresting people's consciousness for just long enough to make them buy all the related junk. Rant all you want -- that's just how the human mind works.

    1. Re:It's easy to blame the game companies... by Limit+Break · · Score: 1

      I remember when "Enter the Matrix" was first released (a friend had rented it) and my initial thoughts were that it was a pretty cool game...though I had only played it for about 5 minutes. I went online to try to find reviews and guess what? Couldn't find any. When the reviews did start pouring in they weren't very kind to the game. I own a few games that have various bugs in them (like GTAVC) but none that will cause the game to freeze or not do what it's supposed to do when I tell it to do it. It's not buggy enough to ruin my enjoyment of it. It's even more disappointing when a game like Tomb Raider: AOD takes months and months to be released because of all the delays and the product is STILL full of bugs. And yet the game will sell a bazillion copies (like EtM). I suppose it could be worse, the movie titles on the Atari 2600 were pretty awful. :P

  40. No real problems here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I haven't had many problems with my console games. Zelda was pretty close to flawless and I only ran into one reboot bug with Metroid.

    SSX Tricky I've gone through walls and grinded upside down, but they don't show up most of the time.

    Pikmin, never found a bug.

    Super monkey balls (Can't remember if it's 1 or 2 with the problem) there's no w in the alphabet but who needs that letter anyways. Two T's for everyone! :)

  41. Re:We let them do it on the PC, what did we expect by Poofat · · Score: 1

    Wow. If you think Blizzard is the most reliable company, you are a very strange and deluded person. Just look at the rat's nest Bnet has become.

  42. Wal-Mart by Nakanai_de · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Wal-Mart of course has no take-back policy on games. You bought it, you keep it (unless it's defective, in which you trade it for a different copy of the same game).

    You've never worked at a Wal-Mart electronics section, have you? Sure, that's the stated policy. However, in reality, the policy is "do whatever the customer wants you to" (at least at the store I worked at, it was). If you whine and bitch and moan and ask to see a manager, they'll take your return. Hell, most of the time, you just have to be firm about it- your repeat business is more important to them than a measily policy (esp. since they'll just mark the game as "defective" and send it back to the manufacturer regardless).

    We had one customer come in one time and complain that the South Park game contained "inappropriate language," and so she wanted to return it. Well, no sh*t, lady! There's a label on the front and back of the box that says "Mature: Language." Not to mention the fact that it's a South Park game. But she got her return. [sarcasm] The customer is always right. [/sarcasm]

    --

    Sono koro, bokura wa, sore ga sekai no shinjitsu da to shinjite ita.

  43. Seems rather alarmist to me... by Man+In+Black · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ah, games have had bugs for years... and it's definitely not a NEW thing to have video games development cycle shortened in order to get a product out by Christmas. I have Atari games with bugs in them too, and when you compare things, games these days probably have LESS bugs per unit of code than they used to. I mean hell, Mine Storm (the game built into the Vectrex) screws up if you beat level 13, because it tried to load information that isn't really there.

    Obviously, some games have some pretty major bugs that stick out like a sore thumb these days... especially since imperfections aren't tolerated as well (sprite corruption in an Atari game isn't as bad as broken polygons, or a complete crash on a PC game), but I hardly think it's enough to warrant any major action.

    --
    -"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -EH
  44. To the metamoderator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The parent post is Insightful or Funny, and indeed it's not offtopic if you know what it means. Look the subject of this article.

  45. Gamestop accepts them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We accept opened games with a few exceptions

    1.) you can't have abused the game. It has to still be passable as new.
    2.) It has to be in the first 7 days WITH a receipt.
    3.) You can't treat the store like a personal rental service. We do stop people from abusing the system.
    4.) We won't take any subscription based title back. Online RPGs and a few other items (XBox live comes to mind) are completely

  46. Causality... by skia · · Score: 1
    judging from the sales of these... titles, enough of you guys just aren't punishing the companies for releasing sub-par products to make a difference

    Oh. Right. So it's supposed to go like this?

    1. buy game
    2. play game
    3. game locks up
    4. don't buy game
    Hmmmmmmm.
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  47. Re:We let them do it on the PC, what did we expect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have 0 faith in all companies, save Blizzard. At least they havent completely fscked me yet (although the latest ACCESS VIOLATION error from WC3 TFT is starting to REALLY piss me off)...

    Aah, so you weren't one of the ones utterly screwed over when Blizz corrupted a bunch of D2 characters and refused to rollback or restore them?
    And from your mention of WC3, I take it that you weren't one of the ones who was terribly disappointed in Blizzard for releasing a game that shares pretty much all of the flaws of its previous 3 (or 5, if you count BtDP and BW) RTSs. Really, they seem incapable of learning from experience, or from other companies.

  48. Geometric expansion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take a 2x2 square. Calculate the area: 4.
    Now, give it a border .5 unit_lengths wide. New area: 9.
    Do this again. 16.
    And again. 25.
    Rinse and repeat until you get bored.
    See? Geometric expansion. Exponential works as well, but either is valid.

  49. Atari bugs... by The+Lynxpro · · Score: 1

    I realize that Infogrames aka "Atari" is not the Atari of old, but let's put it in perspective. I went through 30 cartridges of "Air Sea Battle" on my Atari 2600. That game never worked on my system. Then on the Atari 7800, "Impossible Mission" lived up to its name to the tee; there was a bug in the game that prevented you from beating it. I guess that means there was no issue of false advertising. Come to think of it, same goes for the Matrix. Can you seriously complain about that title when the movie specifically states there are glitches in the Matrix itself? In this case, the game is living up to the movie(s). Besides, people who spend $50 so they can be Jada Pickett-Smith in a videogame should have their heads examined...

    --
    "Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
  50. In all my years playing NES games... by Metroid72 · · Score: 1

    I only saw ONE game freeze (Metal Gear 2: Snake's Revenge), for some reason if you played the game very well, and got 3 stars by the time you reached the train level the game would just stop.

    On the other hand, during the early NES years in japan they had to recall some systems and games, that's when things got tough

    Besides that games usually froze because of dirty connectors (and the 'great' tradition of blowing air to the game paks)

    Can you guys think of other games that froze?

    1. Re:In all my years playing NES games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NES blowjob you're fondly recalling actually did nothing to help/fix the connectors, but perhaps prepared you for those first two sorted years at college. Seriously though, the problem was the plastic piece by the connectors that would gradually get stretched out and lossen. You could pick up a new one for something really cheap too, an easy fix.

  51. Look at other software industries.. by DescSuit · · Score: 1

    The reason console game companies are being like this now more than ever is because they can and they think they have to. They are following the model of other software development. Console games used to be the paragon of software stability.. if you crash they won't buy was the mantra.. now MS has joined the fray and let me tell you.. they know how to win by shipping first and shoddy.

    So to compete other companies had to try something. They looked at other software industries (Patch # what!!?!?) and they did what they thought they had to. Console games are only a small wedge of a much bigger problem.. consumers have learned to accept crap from software because they've been told they have to.. In my opinion it makes the whole industry look bad.. (well it does make software developers look like dark magicians working in the arcane and unpredictable arts.. so I guess there's some mystique value :)

    That day will end though, I think. Unless the industry can find some other great paradigm shift that will baffle consumers and convince them "It's all new and therefore should be buggy".. Otherwise people will start shopping more and more on quality. The software industry just has to mature some more is all. Companies are already getting rocked by this.. slowly but surely..

    DescSuit

  52. It is all about the $$ by PhoenixOne · · Score: 1
    Yes there is too much pressure to go to market but, sadly, I can't agree with:

    "Don't the publishers realize that releasing sub-par games on schedule is MUCH worse than releasing excellent games behind?"

    The sad fact is, unless the bugs make the game completely unplayable, it is almost always more profitable to release a game on time then wait for 'perfection'. This is especially true with movie tie-in games. If they waited to release the Matrix game until now it wouldn't sell nearly as well.

    As a game programmer, I wish this wasn't true. But I can't think of a single title that has been 'perfected' before release. On the other hand, I'm surprised the console makers are allowing these games to pass testing. I remember the nightmare months of 90-hour weeks fixing bugs reported by those game-testing geeks at Nintendo (I love them now because they helped us make some of the greatest games ever but, at the time, I just wanted to piss on their cheerios).

    --
    Spell cheek you've failed me four the last thyme!
  53. Re:We let them do it on the PC, what did we expect by amuro98 · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but the "lots of different hardware combinations' excuse just doesn't hold much water anymore.

    Sure, I've come across games within the past few years that had actual hardware related issues (one game's installer would freak out if it detected an AMD CPU for some reason) but most of the bugs I see in games are due to poor design and testing.

    The fact that an item disappears from your inventory has nothing to do with what video card or driver version you're running, for instance.

  54. Bugs are relative to size.. by fatgraham · · Score: 1

    You can't expect games not to have bugs in them these days. If you(the publisher and/or consumer) want all the features they want, they have to be written. Games take 2 years or so to develop now, they have HUGE levels, HUGE amounts of animation, very complex hardware (ps2, pc), huge amounts of SDK's to go through, each system has its own sets of interface rules to adhere too, plus, you need to add STUFF into the game.

    All games released have loads of bugs, theres some big ones in jak and daxter, and even in ratchet and clank (which is like, the most optimised PS2 game there is), theres numerous places where mario can get through walls, etc etc

    now, you spend say, the last 3+ months of work fixing bugs on a game, unless, lets face it, some games are rushed (ie. those in the topic)

    everyone leaves bugs in their games, these people clearly forgot to fix some of the more important ones. I'm guessing very strict deadlines got in the way. Not that its the developers fault, nintendo, sony, and microsoft all do extensive checks before letting a game through. (unless your EA, who are allowed to bend the rules... but thats anotehr topic entirely)