Savage to Support Linux

What a good idea! by James+A.+A.+Joyce · 2003-07-26 10:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's such an obvious idea I'm surprised that no one's thought of it before. With games makers keeping their games sensibly small it's entirely possible for someone to squeeze a version for Windows and Linux on one disk; heck, they already do it for Windows/Macintosh, why not Windows/Linux more often? Maybe now one company's had the balls to actually go ahead and do this others will follow with higher profile games.

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Bash script for FP whores

Re:What a good idea! by dinivin · 2003-07-26 10:27 · Score: 2, Informative

Other's have though of it before. I bought a copy of Terminus a couple of years ago that had linux, windows, and mac binaries on them.

Dinivin
Re:What a good idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:30 · Score: 0

What the hell are you on about?

It's not a question of having thought about it, and it has nothing to do with squeezing something on the same CD. Do you have any idea how ridiculously cheap it is to produce a CD?

The reason you don't see companies doing this often is because they just don't develop for Linux.
Re:What a good idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:31 · Score: 0

"With games makers keeping their games sensibly small it's entirely possible for someone to squeeze a version for Windows and Linux on one disk"

I don't think the business secision to port the game to another platform has anything to do with whether or not they will need to include another $0.02 cd in the box.
Re:What a good idea! by xSauronx · 2003-07-26 10:35 · Score: 0, Redundant

i remember a few years ago a game called Terminus had a Linux, MAc and Windows version all on one disc game semi-sucked tho so no one made much noise about it, i liked it somewhat...and since i still have it and just put linux on it, i think ill fire it up this weekend ahhhh http://www.pcgameworld.com/game.php/id/491/

--
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -- George Carlin
Re:What a good idea! by mackstann · 2003-07-26 10:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

And really, size doesn't seem like so much of a problem. All of the media files are architecture- and OS-independent, so just libraries and program files would need to be duplicated. Not sure how much disk space those take up though (seems like it wouldn't be much, in comparison).
Re:What a good idea! by Geeyzus · 2003-07-26 11:09 · Score: 2, Informative

I doubt the space used is the issue, since CDs are so cheap. It's the issue of having to make sure the game works properly on all of the desired platforms that costs money, and which is why so many companies ignore Linux (and Mac). The vast majority of gamers are running Windows, and a lot of Linux/Mac users have another Windows box just for games. It's just not worth the time/money when the game market is so competitive already.

Mark
Re:What a good idea! by djcapelis · 2003-07-26 11:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

I've actually met the development team behind this game... a years ago, (after their E3 presentation for last year's E3...) they had no plans to port to linux when I asked them. Now they do... I wonder what changed...

As for the company and them having the balls to do it, I'm not surprised at all... a small company with a quality product like this... with technically inclined people is a perfect type of company to do this.

--
I touch computers in naughty places
Re:What a good idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:41 · Score: 1, Interesting

As opposed to non technically inclined people who produce all the other complex games?

The reason more games don't get produced for linux is because the general population of Linux users want everything free. Until they can prove Linux users want to spend money no one is going to blink an eye.
Re:What a good idea! by _Sprocket_ · 2003-07-26 13:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

The reason more games don't get produced for linux is because the general population of Linux users want everything free. Until they can prove Linux users want to spend money no one is going to blink an eye.

And Windows users like to get all their games from their favorite warez iso source. Any other stereotypes you would like to bandy about?
Re:What a good idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:08 · Score: 0

It's far from a stereotype. And iso'ing has been going on for 8 years and put less than a dent into pc gaming sales. The whole reasoning behind Linux is to be free! Why would they want to start paying now? Duh.
Re:What a good idea! by Dalcius · 2003-07-26 13:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

No kidding.

I figure if just this once, Slashdot put its money where its mouth is and bought the game, the gaming companies might realize what kind of a market there is. Linux is getting more desktop users every day. Keeping software portable isn't difficult if you keep your code multi-tiered and that relatively small effort gets income from Windows, Linux, XBox, etc... this seems to be a trend.

I thought this game sounded good, much like Allegiance or even Battlezone II. The graphics look nice, and I could use a new game. But normally I'd just wait until it hit shelves and take a look then.

But Linux support? Hell yeah. I just preordered this game from EB.

$39.99. That's $10 off, you get access to the ongoing beta when your order is confirmed (which Linux is a part of, per the article), a free comic about the game and Linux support in what looks to be a good game.
Not bad.

--
~Dalcius
Rome wasn't burnt in a day.
Re:What a good idea! by _Sprocket_ · 2003-07-26 18:48 · Score: 1

It's far from a stereotype. And iso'ing has been going on for 8 years and put less than a dent into pc gaming sales.

Yes it is a stereotype. You can point to a very sizeable group of people who won't pay for games in the Windows market too. That's not the issue.

And yes "piracy" has been going on for awhile. Far longer than 5 years. I could provide examples from personal observation going back 20 years. And there are examples that date far back to the very dawn of personal computing (Gate's letter complaining about people "stealing" BASIC comes to mind).

Obviously, that doesn't mean there hasn't been a market for software. Indeed, over the decades, that market has grown. And with computer games, that market has become one that produces enough revenue to be compared to Hollywood's infamous cash jugernaut.

Why? Because even if there are people who will go to the lengths needed to get software free, there are also those who will buy it. If there are enough willing to buy, there is a suitable market.

Its not about the people who won't buy.

The whole reasoning behind Linux is to be free! Why would they want to start paying now? Duh.

You're making a common mistake. "Free" isn't simply "no cost". I'll spare you the common comparison with price and beer. But the distinction is important one. There are people who pay for software (even when its Free). I know because I've witnessed it and done it.

The viability of a Linux gaming market isn't over whether people will pay for software any more than the Windows market is driven by the fact that people "pirate" it. There ARE people who will buy it (heck - I was laying NWN on Linux just before posting this). Whether there are enough people is an issue (after all, Linux is pretty far down on the list of desktop marketshare). Whether your developers have the expertise to produce a Linux version of your game is another (just ask Bioware). These are just a few of the real issues.
Re:What a good idea! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 23:46 · Score: 0

Yep! Been done, I know this isn't the only one, but Illwinter Games did it with Dominions. A groovy little strategy game with the tiniest little graphics and the best balance of depth and strategy since Chess. (ish) Comes on a CD that contains Windoze, Linux and Maac versions. All costs the same.
Re:What a good idea! by MyRuger · 2003-07-27 01:10 · Score: 1

Hey, I had almost every title that Loki ported and I bought Terminus and Tribes 2. The real problem is that I am the ONLY linux geek that I know who plays games. Now that linux is moving into the desktop market for the average user, maybe we will get more gamers. Loki is out of business because they jumped the gun.
Re:What a good idea! by shione · 2003-07-27 01:19 · Score: 1

Read back on slashdot's articles. that multi platform anti virus company microsoft bought a few months ago, proves linux users WILL pay for good software.

Everyone likes a free meal, but that doesnt mean we won't pay when its worth it.
Re:What a good idea! by adamfranco · 2003-07-27 03:17 · Score: 1

I'm ordering it now. :P

In addition to being availible for Linux, this game also looks really cool! I'm an avid fan of BF1942, but the one thing that could really improve that game is Savage's commander role, allowing changing global strategy to be communicated to the troops on the ground. Its always funny how all the players will leave a flag just after it's captured to go take another without leaving any defenders. Sad.

--
"When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind." -- Bill Moyers
Re:What a good idea! by SQLz · 2003-07-27 06:01 · Score: 1

I disagree. If anything, Linux users don't buy much software because there are not that many linux users compared the Windows users. Linux users are normally a cut above the average user and I'm sure they know the difference between free and commercial software. Its not that we want everything for free, but there are just not that many Linux gamers out there and those that are gamers are booting into their Win2000 partition to game. Check out all the game warez news groups. You'll see thousands of windows games for free. Checkout alt.binaries.linux.warez, you'll see nothing.
Re:What a good idea! by djcapelis · 2003-07-27 06:02 · Score: 1

>The reason more games don't get produced for linux
>is because the general population of Linux users
>want everything free. Until they can prove Linux
>users want to spend money no one is going to blink
>an eye.

I believe I'll be buying this game. It's good, it's local... and it's linux. If it didn't run on linux I would not buy it as I haven't booted windows on this computer for a long time and don't intend to.

--
I touch computers in naughty places
Re:What a good idea! by _Sprocket_ · 2003-07-27 07:23 · Score: 1

I disagree. If anything, Linux users don't buy much software because there are not that many linux users compared the Windows users. Linux users are normally a cut above the average user and I'm sure they know the difference between free and commercial software. Its not that we want everything for free, but there are just not that many Linux gamers out there and those that are gamers are booting into their Win2000 partition to game.

Actually, you're agreeing with me. "Linux users want everything for free (no cost)" is a false stereotype. Yet there are plenty of other reasons that a company may not want to enter the Linux gaming market. I make that point later in this thread.

I didn't mention the dual-booting issue. And its a good point. It also falls in line with products from Transgaming and the like. These methods and technologies do provide a way for the Linux user to get access to games. But they also might be an excuse for game studios not to bother with a native Linux port.
Re:What a good idea! by SQLz · 2003-07-27 14:27 · Score: 1

But they also might be an excuse for game studios not to bother with a native Linux port.

I wish I had a real stat on developers who deciced not to do a native Linux version because of WineX. I know of a few but I'd consider them 'enlightened' developers and they endded up working with Transgaming. (moo3) As for the rest, I don't think WineX is even on their radar. I think they go with what they know. Most game developers learn DirectX.

There are not that many Linux gamers out there. Even Sierra, a well known publiser, recently compared Linux to Commodore 64 when it came to usership. That forum thread is now deleted but the link was at linuxgames.com.
Re:What a good idea! by ChaoticLimbs · 2003-07-30 19:23 · Score: 1

I will also buy this game, even if only to send a message to other developers.

Publicity by steesefactor · 2003-07-26 10:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'm wondering if game companies will start porting games to Linux if just to get the publicity from sites like /.? A minor story about a game I've never heard of gets on the front page just because it's also for Linux. How many other sites report on cross-operating system games like this?

Re:Publicity by James+A.+A.+Joyce · 2003-07-26 10:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

Dozens.

I'm quite glad for companies which do this, though. We already do this for other open source and proprietary products, but we've neglected games. If a company we support wants to get a bit of free publicity by submitting a story to Slashdot, they're free to do so. And if more people start hearing about games for Linux, that's one of the trifedecta of reasons for staying with Windows eliminated (the other two being a perceived lack of hardware support and legacy Windows applications). This can really only be a good thing; I can't see anything negative about it, especially considering how many adverts Slashdot already has.

--
Bash script for FP whores
Re:Publicity by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 10:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

I agree. There are really only a few things that are preventing me from switching to Linux.

1. Multimedia support. Xine and Mplayer are great, if you can get them to work. I've had little trouble on SuSE but it's awfully flaky on Slackware, through my experience. Additionally, there's really precious little to compare to Premiere for video editing.
2. Games. I do play a lot of them. Thankfully, ZSNES and a lot of other emulators are available on Linux. This alleviates that tremendously. Unfortunately, Tux Racer isn't my idea of immersive entertainment.
3. Consistency. Red Hat/Mandrake's attempts to unify the desktops with Bluecurve/Galaxy, respectively, are one step in the right direction; now, if GTK+ would only fix that file picker dialog ;D

With Wolfenstein, Neverwinter Nights, and now Savage, we're headed in the right direction. 1 down, 2 to go.
Re:Publicity by Feztaa · 2003-07-26 10:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

Xine and Mplayer are great, if you can get them to work.

Xine is t3h suck. :)

Mplayer is great, it's managed to play everything I've ever thrown at it.

The trick to installing mplayer is to use an RPM-based distro (RedHat 9 has worked really well for me), then download all the RPMs that their website tells you to. You need the base package, gui, and all the codecs and stuff. Then just 'rpm -i *.rpm' them, and there you go. If you're like me with a radeon card, make sure you're using X 4.3 with the radeon driver loaded (vesa driver is evil), and mplayer should be using the 'xv' output.

For those not in the know, here are some reasons why mplayer kicks WMP's ass:

- sane key bindings. WMP's keybindings are all CTRL + this or SHIFT + that. I've always found it unintuitive; it's like the normal keys have already been used, so they have to resort to using the CTRL key. In mplayer, 'p' is pause, 'f' is fullscreen, etc. It's very simple.

- easy rewind/fast forward. WMP makes you fiddle with the mouse clicking on the stupid progress meter, mplayer lets you easily skip ahead and back with the arrow keys (not that you can't fiddle with a graphical progress bar if you feel like it).

- more codecs. I can use mplayer to watch *everything* that I download; whereas on Windows you need WMP for some files, realplayer, quicktime, WinDVD, and a few others just to have all files covered.

- support of corrupted files. If I download a movie with bittorrent, but I only get 99%, mplayer can play the file (with just a couple skips and jumps from missing pieces), while WMP will just barf and not play the file at all.

I think mplayer is one of the pinnacles of open source development, right up there with Apache and Mozilla.
Re:Publicity by droleary · 2003-07-26 10:46 · Score: 1, Troll

This can really only be a good thing; I can't see anything negative about it, especially considering how many adverts Slashdot already has.

The negative is that, present company excluded, there really isn't a market for Linux games. Hell, there is hardly a market for Linux desktops. So any company that expends resources making a Linux version of a game is likely going to lose money on it. A better business decision would be to make a Mac version (which it doesn't seem they've bothered doing), an established desktop platform that is eager to pay for quality games. Every Linux game that comes out before Linux is mature enough to support a game market means a string of horror stories on why games shouldn't be developed for Linux. If I was in charge of a game company, I'd fire anyone who suggested a Linux version be done before a Mac version.
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:49 · Score: 0

And here is the single reason WMP kicks Mplayer's ass: you don't need to be 'teh 1337 h4x0r' and be able to "use an RPM-based distro then download all the RPMs that their website tells you to. You need the base package, gui, and all the codecs and stuff. Then just 'rpm -i *.rpm' them, and there you go. If you're like me with a radeon card, make sure you're using X 4.3 with the radeon driver loaded (vesa driver is evil), and mplayer should be using the 'xv' output."

All you need to do with WMP is double-click on a song or drag and drop.
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:05 · Score: 0

unless WMP doesn't have the right codec installed.

apt-get install xine
Re:Publicity by aldoman · 2003-07-26 11:20 · Score: 1

But as much as I hate too tell you the worst that happens is: a) windows media player looks up at M$ central and gets the codec for you b) or you have to double click another installer.

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Re:Publicity by smittyoneeach · 2003-07-26 11:21 · Score: 1

I'm happy about this. I bought Might and Magic 3 from Loki (which company died and was reborn as a mind-bending C++ library), and it's about the only game I play.
Don't see what's so hard about compiling a game for multiple targets, especially if you used Qt or something to hide all of the OS personality issues.
Targeting Linux might just lure a purchase out of me, for all first-person and real-time games don't byte my naughty bits...

--
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Re:Publicity by Coyote67 · 2003-07-26 11:22 · Score: 3, Informative

Yeah thats awesome linux guys, but I really have to put my .02 in this. I have one player for everything in windows. Media Player Classic does everything I ever wanted in a media player. Combine it with the codec pack and the quicktime/realmedia alternative codec packs you can get from here . It can play everything you throw at it because all it does is use all the codecs on your system. You can set priority if you want things specific and dolby ex quality dvds play perfectly.

--
[Just Shut Up and Do What I say]
Re:Publicity by SealBeater · 2003-07-26 11:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

The trick to installing mplayer is to use an RPM-based distro

No, the trick is to actually read the docs and have an idea of what you are
doing. And no, rpm -i *.rpm doesn't qualify.

Sorry, I just hate laziness of thought and not too fond of those who advocate
such.

SealBeater

--
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:35 · Score: 0

WOW! Mac fanboys and mac fanboys-mods here!

You know, there's something called x86, and something called ppc, you dumbass.

And us linux want games too...
Re:Publicity by thesolo · 2003-07-26 11:41 · Score: 1

make sure you're using X 4.3 with the radeon driver loaded (vesa driver is evil)

Which driver is that?! According to ATI's site, they only have 4.1.0 and 4.2.0 supported versions of their 3D driver (Which is why I haven't upgraded past Redhat 8.0). Radeons have native 2D support in 4.3, but I'm not aware of any accelerated driver for 4.3.0. If I'm wrong, please correct me!
Re:Publicity by 222 · 2003-07-26 11:42 · Score: 1

I beg your pardon, but Xine certainly does not suck :).
Its one thing to state that mplayer works better in your situation (by my own admittance it is a very capable media player), but to bash one of IMHO one of the best open source projects around isnt fair. At work, i have it built from source on a slack9 box, it loads instantly, and it doesnt skip under heavy cpu load (/glare XMMS). (It does, however, stop playing if i click and drag a windowmaker window for longer than 5-6 seconds, go figure). To him and his own, god bless the options of OSS.
Re:Publicity by vandan · 2003-07-26 11:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

2 problems with this argument:

1) Linux users are soon to outnumber Mac users. See here for a Mac user's take on this.

2) Since OS-X is based on BSD, making a Linux OR Mac version of an app is doing most of the ground work for the other anyway. If you're going to go after one minority market, why put in another 5% effort and go after the other as well?
Re:Publicity by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 11:57 · Score: 1

Following the docs exactly, I ended up with two completely different end results on SuSE and Slackware. Apparently other people I've spoken to have had similar results with their distro-du-jour.

On SuSE, everything seemed to work fine. It took a little while to compile on my 500 MHz P3 box, but everything worked.

On Slackware, everything compiled fine, if by "compiled fine" I really mean "when you try to run it, it does absolutely nothing and doesn't even start up," which still doesn't make sense because how can I not know what I mean? Why can't I be straightforward instead of derailing my own posts? Something botched in the lib versions I had installed, probably, but after 4 or 5 lengthy recompilations after rereading the docs to ensure I didn't miss anything, I decided it wasn't worth it.
Re:Publicity by drugdealer · 2003-07-26 12:03 · Score: 1

I've got a Linux machine at home running 24/7 doing boring server stuff all the time (no details, but no, it is not a web server). Since the computer is on all the time, I find it convenient for playing a quick game now and then, surfing the Internet, etc. These desktop activities are a drag on the performance of the computer's server tasks, but even if it did the server tasks 10 times slower, it wouldn't cause any problems - and this is a $500 computer. (Part of the story here is that the computer's load is fairly light most of the time - when the load is heavy, of course, I'm not going to run any games. Also, $500 can buy a lot of computing power on eBay right now.) I would be willing to shell out $30 for a good Linux game. I would prefer, though, that the game not take up the full screen so that I can keep an eye on the load.

This is just my own experience. I'm not saying that there is a huge market for Linux games because there are lots of servers out there than can double as desktops. I'm just saying that at least one person - myself - is interested in using a server as a game machine when the server is not heavily loaded (which is most of the time).

So, I'm happy to see another game for the Linux market. Part of what needs to go into the Mac vs. Linux business decision is looking at how crowded the commercial Mac game market is vs. the commercial Linux game market. I don't have any figures, but I'm going to guess that the commercial Mac game market is much more crowded. I might be willing to pay for a sub-standard Linux game (not saying that Savage: The Battle for Newerth is sub-standard - it's probably very good) just because I don't have a lot of gaming alternatives on this platform.
Re:Publicity by henele · 2003-07-26 12:13 · Score: 1

From a media perspective a few musician's I know of have considered vorbis output to grease up the distribution amongst geeks hungry for OSS music :)
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:17 · Score: 0

You forgot...

c) it craps out and can't find the codec and you have no idea what codec the video uses or where to get it uses so you drag and drop the video into the recycle bin!
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:21 · Score: 2, Informative

XFree86 4.3.x should support most ATI products with both 2D and 3D acceleration through DRI (some 3D features are missing, but most are there).
Re:Publicity by Josh+Booth · 2003-07-26 12:31 · Score: 1

Xine isn't bad, but it does take a little while for the plugins to load when it starts. It does compile well under Slackware 9, as it did on 8.1, supports ALSA (go ALSA! I got a non-flakey VIA southbrige sound driver from them :-) ) I couldn't figure out how to get Xine to recognize the decrypting DVD driver though. Oh, and any skipping is not the fault of XMMS, windowmaker, or really anything other than the kernel with preemptibility and latency stuff that should be fixed in 2.6.
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:45 · Score: 0

Sorry, I just hate laziness of thought and not too fond of those who advocate
such.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Atta boy! Those are the comments we love to hear from lunatics. You can't win the world over with an OS that's hard and most readme docs are written by monkeys as well.
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:06 · Score: 0

We don't want the world, we just want 5% - the top 5%.

Microsoft can keep the drooling-idiot desktop market for all I care, the only reason I'm fighting them is because they declared war on us, because they suck so much on the desktop that even the drooling idiots wanted an alternative and some started using linux, so rather than competing on merit, MS chose black propaganda and legal attacks.
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:11 · Score: 0

Following the docs exactly, I ended up with two completely different end results on SuSE and Slackware. Apparently other people I've spoken to have had similar results with their distro-du-jour. ... On Slackware, everything compiled fine, if by "compiled fine" I really mean "when you try to run it, it does absolutely nothing and doesn't even start up," which still doesn't make sense because how can I not know what I mean?

What?? You're doing something wrong. It works completely fine with Slack 8.1 and 9.0. Probably could work with 8.0 too. But anyways, compiling MPlayer requires nothing more than a fairly current kernel and build system. So a simple ./configure && make && make install is all you need. You even state that it compiled fine. If you botched the libs it's not Slack's nor MPlayer's but YOUR fault.
Re:Publicity by lightcycle · 2003-07-26 13:25 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually, I find myself needing both xine and mplayer. Mplayer plays just about anything you throw at it, without problems. Xine on the other hand has a somewhat flakier playback, sometimes with frames dropped, at least on my system, but it's way better than mplayer for dvd:s.

--

The stars that shine and the stars that shrink
in the face of stagnation the water runs before your eyes
Re:Publicity by Dalcius · 2003-07-26 13:50 · Score: 1

With all due respect, you honestly shouldn't have to know what you're doing besides "installing a program."

Installing Apache, SSL, etc. are completely different issues, but user end programs are meant to be used.

This is why I love Gentoo.

--
~Dalcius
Rome wasn't burnt in a day.
Re:Publicity by Omicron32 · 2003-07-26 13:52 · Score: 1

The trick to installing mplayer is to use an RPM-based distro

No, the trick to installing mplayer is:
# emerge mplayer
:P
Re:Publicity by Jameth · 2003-07-26 13:57 · Score: 1

First: Many of the hotkeys in Windows were picked due to being standard, such as alt+enter being fullscreen, which I've seen used in a couple dozen other programs.

Secondly, installing on a non-RPM based distro, such as Slackware is so mindbogglingly easy, I'm amazed whoever you replied to managed to fuck it up. I've done it about seven times and not once has my method failed: ./configure && make && make install

Hmmmmm...what's so tough?
Okay, so you might want to install a couple hundred extra codecs, but that's just a matter of downloading them and COPYING them to the directory noted in the installation howto (which is incredibly clear, as well). Or, you can just stick 'em wherever and point to them with an option after ./configure.

Of course, if you want the GUI it's a little harder. Add --with-gui to the command line after ./configure. Then download a GUI, and put it in the appropriate directory, just where it tells you to in the installation howto.

Note 1: The GUI sucks, and should not be used under any circumstances, although a decent front-end called eMotion should be available shortly

Note 1++: Those front-ends already available (such as kmplayer) are hideous crimes against humanity.
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:57 · Score: 0

Or perhaps

# cd /usr/ports/multimedia/mplayer
# make install clean

or if you don't want to compile..

# pkg_add -r mplayer :-)

does gentoo have precompiled binaries yet?
Re:Publicity by Salsaman · 2003-07-26 14:32 · Score: 1

Additionally, there's really precious little to compare to Premiere for video editing.
Well, you could try LiVES
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 14:49 · Score: 0

So do I, its not that I don't know how to compile programs, Gentoo makes it easier on my life.
Re:Publicity by N1KO · 2003-07-26 15:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

I have one player for everything under linux... mplayer. Every file i've tried has worked so far.

It uses external libraries and codecs just like your player. If you don't like the horrible interface there are frontends for both mplayer and xine available, you can change the priority for any program you want (if you have root access, although its a security risk, still safer than running windows). You can even install a plugin to get mplayer working from your web browser.

Games may be lacking but playing media files is one thing that i actually find easier in linux than windows... i don't even have to install the codecs, since they get updated automatically whenever new versions come out.
Re:Publicity by moncyb · 2003-07-26 16:04 · Score: 1

Does it print any messages? Mplayer usually prints tonnes of messages, so if you don't see any, then it's really screwed up. If it prints messages, try reading them. ;-)
Have you tried the -vo (video output) option? I think the default is mga--Direct access to a Matrox video card. Don't ask me why. If you have X set up properly, you probably want xv for the best performance. Otherwise x11 should work, but it's slow.
Re:Publicity by Overly+Critical+Guy · 2003-07-26 16:08 · Score: 1, Insightful

Linux users are soon to outnumber Mac users.

This is how Slashdot folklore gets started. You're obviously referring to that ridiculous article posted a while back on Slashdot that said Linux would overtake Apple in the desktop market in a year. Everyone ridiculed that article. Linux will not beat Apple in the desktop market. Not until people get their shit together.

But, there are those who refer to it as truth long enough, and now it's morphed into "Linux users are soon to outnumber Mac users." This is why people make fun of Slashbots and their inability to stop drawing up vague claims with nothing to back them up as if they are common knowledge. It was a bizarre report then that nobody believe, and it's a bizarre claim now that nobody believes.

Next.

--
"Sufferin' succotash."
Re:Publicity by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 16:11 · Score: 1

Thanks, I'll try that -- I'm not running Slackware anymore (was dual-booting, eliminated the partition when I got a dedicated Linux machine), so I'll see if I can get it running on my Mandrake box.
Re:Publicity by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 16:13 · Score: 1

That is the most god-awful interface I've ever seen. However, it does seem feature-rich enough to eventually be useful, and it's been bookmarked. I'll keep tabs on it.

Thanks for the link.
Re:Publicity by self+assembled+struc · 2003-07-26 16:23 · Score: 2, Informative

OSX is based on BSD.

This much is true.

But, unless you're running the X server for OSX, that's about were it stops. The entire graphics, sound and control systems are completely different if you're building an Aqua application (native OSX). Unless you're using some crossplatform GUI like wxPyhton or QT or something, or openGL (which OSX uses) you're going to have a hell of time making that game fully compatible
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 17:13 · Score: 0

You just used Gentoo as an example of an OS that doesn't require someone know what they are doing, a distro that doesn't have a graphical installer, and requires you to fdisk/mkfs all your partitions manually.
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 18:26 · Score: 0

Ever tried Ogle? It's an excellent DVD player.
Re:Publicity by dvdeug · 2003-07-26 18:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

No, the trick is to actually read the docs and have an idea of what you are
doing. And no, rpm -i *.rpm doesn't qualify.

Sorry, I just hate laziness of thought and not too fond of those who advocate
such.

Ah, bite me. It's a video player. Would you prefer it if you got your DVD in a box with a hundred pieces that you have to assemble, after you've got a half-dozen other pieces that weren't included? I can compile the program, but the fewer programs I have to download the source and install a dozen development packages and then wait for it to compile, the better.
Re:Publicity by broeman · 2003-07-26 19:00 · Score: 1

1. mplayer runs very nicely on Gentoo. I still have problem getting sound in some quicktime movies though. Video-editing? Cinerella does the trick. Or buy a Mac to get iMovie and buy Final Cut for professionalism.
2. using WineX(CVS, no payment) for the windoze games (Half-Life/Counterstrike /remember to sign the petition to get HL2 native), but the best games runs nicely on Linux anyway (Uplink, Quake).
3. I don't like consistency, it destroys creativity. While some consistency is always needed, it is already happening, since most is based on basic UI rules (windows, background/desktop, top/bottom-bar, mouse-click).
I think Redhat is taking a step in the wrong direction (maybe mostly because I don't use GTK-apps anyway, only XMMS and the GIMP).
Most console apps have also the same setup (like --help).

--

(yes this can be compared with sex)
Re:Publicity by Fastball · 2003-07-26 19:11 · Score: 1

This is why I dropped Redhat for Gentoo. Well, that and RPM which meant that if Perl wasn't installed, virtually nothing was installed. I'm running Gentoo 1.4rc4 with X 4.3.0 and an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro, and loving America's Army, UT2003, and RTCW. I get 6300+ fps in glgears. Installing Gentoo was easy, and now everything that gets compiled from source gets the optimizations I want. Beautiful.
Re:Publicity by jgkastra · 2003-07-26 21:16 · Score: 1

So a simple ./configure && make && make install is all you need.

That should be "CFLAGS= ./configure --extra-opts=/foo/bar && make && make install". They prefer to set their own flags, and don't bother with bug-reports unless you do that.

--
I Support Fair Use
Re:Publicity by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 21:33 · Score: 0

Additionally, there's really precious little to compare to Premiere for video editing.
Have you checked out Cinelerra?
2. Games. I do play a lot of them.
I feel your pain. This situation will hopefully improve as time passes.
Consistency.
Haven't you ever heard that "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"? :) AC
Re:Publicity by Salsaman · 2003-07-26 22:17 · Score: 1

Well, give it a try, and if you have any useful suggestions for the interface please mail me and I will take them into consideration.
Re:Publicity by listen · 2003-07-26 23:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

Almost all games for the Mac do use OpenGL.
And a lot of those are using SDL for input/screen handling etc.
For most games, the window system is irrelevant, because they just need input + accelerated fullscreen graphics.
Sound is still pretty platform specific, but OpenAL is getting there.

Eventually windows devs are going to realise that using COM from C++ is a complete nightmare, when all you want to do is actually *use* a library. Hopefully they'll start using SDL/OpenGL/OpenAL etc when that happens. Not holding my breath though...
Re:Publicity by dinivin · 2003-07-27 01:14 · Score: 1

http://www.schneider-digital.de/html/download_ati. html

Dinivin
Re:Publicity by d3faultus3r · 2003-07-27 01:42 · Score: 1

by claiming this, you're just as bad as the slashbots. Apple has always marketed to graphic designers and 3d animators, a fairly small portion of computer users. Linux, on the other hand, has gotten inroads into the business and government desktop market and also still dominates the server market. Also, its price makes it more popular in developing countries. Apple doesn't have much room to expand in its current niche whereas Linux does.

--
read my blog
musings on politics and technol
Re:Publicity by Feztaa · 2003-07-27 01:47 · Score: 1

I'm talking about the driver that comes with X 4.3 (as far as I know, it does). It's called 'radeon'.

It's accelerated, in the sense that the 3d opengl screensavers that come with xscreensaver run quickly, but I've never bothered to try playing 3d games with it.
Re:Publicity by Feztaa · 2003-07-27 01:50 · Score: 1

No, the trick is to actually read the docs and have an idea of what you are
doing. And no, rpm -i *.rpm doesn't qualify.

I've compiled mplayer from source before, and as far as I'm concerned, it's one of the bigger PITAs out there. 'rpm -i *.rpm' has always been the easiest way to install mplayer.
Re:Publicity by Feztaa · 2003-07-27 01:54 · Score: 1

IMHO one of the best open source projects around

Every time I've ever used it, on any number of distros, it drops frames like a mofo and segfaults every opportunity that it gets... plus, the UI is UGLY. I'll take mplayer over xine anyday.
Re:Publicity by IamTheRealMike · 2003-07-27 02:24 · Score: 1

Actually, if you take Apples own published numbers and numbers from IDG on users of MacOS X and Linux, you find that there are approximately 3-4 times as many desktop Linux users than Mac users.
This is not entirely surprising, although it depends on how IDG measured what a "Linux desktop" user is (what if they dual boot etc). Linux generally has a very low barrier to entry, whereas Macs have a very high barrier to entry.
Now, instead of flaming the article and anybody who dares comment on it, why don't you back your position up with some numbers, like the people who are claiming the Linux is about to (or already has) overtaken MacOS X are doing?
Re:Publicity by adamfranco · 2003-07-27 03:10 · Score: 1

Well, X11 takes all of 30seconds and two clicks to install in OSX. I use it all the time to run my *NIX apps. I haven't tried Tux racer or any games, but I assume that they would work.

--
"When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind." -- Bill Moyers
Re:Publicity by samhalliday · 2003-07-27 03:27 · Score: 1

The trick to installing mplayer is to use an RPM-based distro
yes, my GNU/Linux from Scratch distro is da-bomb at RPM stuff... *cough* (goes away to use xine which was built from source and has no playback problems whatsoever...).
people on this thread are comparing apples and oranges; they are comparing different versions of xine-lib on different platforms and wondering why one is more stable than the other. it is quite obvious that a more recent bug-fixed version will be more stable. if your distro's install method is screwy; it is your distros fault, not the xine peoples. they release source only. i dont think they even _officially_ support RPMs either (most people dont).
the trick to watching most formats is to ensure that you have the binary codecs installed. although, having said that, i am getting by on ffmpeg these days...
Re:Publicity by samhalliday · 2003-07-27 03:36 · Score: 1

yes, i have a radeon and i am running with 3D acceleration: you are confusing drivers and DRI/DRM. You also are thinking you have to use the binary ATI drivers from their site... which are rubbish and nobody uses them. Use the XFree86 native drivers instead.
the driver just does all the 2D and normal screen stuff (i belive 2D acceleration is in here). if you want 3D acceleration however, you use the DRI/DRM system. all this means in reality is that (for the DRI part) you add
Load "glx"
Load "dri"

to the "Modules" section of your XFree86 config file.
for the DRM part, all you need do is make sure you have the kernel module loaded. it must be the XFree86-4.3 one, not the vanilla kernel module [it must be built against your kernel and with the same c compiler as your kernel... but if you use a distro they will ensure that is all correct.]
so, in short; add those lines to your config file (when using the radeon driver). in fact, if the distro is set up correctly, you wont even need to do any of this as it will do it all for you during the install... and all will "just work" ;-)
Re:Publicity by trashme · 2003-07-27 04:56 · Score: 1

Sometimes, it's just not worth the effort.

I used to compile mplayer from source, but I always had a bug or two. Any time I would bring up the GUI prefs, mplayer would crash. That wasn't a big deal though, since I'd never use the GUI prefs. But it also turned out that my compiled version of mplayer didn't support AC3 audio. At the time I think the instructions mentioned needing to get a CVS version of one of the libraries (don't remember exactly which one, it's been a while). Instead of going through that hassle, I installed decided to the installing the deb package. GUI worked fine, and it supported all the codecs, including AC3. All the codecs were even packaged up and listed as suggested or recommended packages in the dependencies. I haven't bothered compiling it since.

If someone has gone through the trouble of packaging some software for your distribution and making the package publicly available, why not use it? It's a resource.
Re:Publicity by 222 · 2003-07-27 07:24 · Score: 1

I havent had the problems with stability that you seem to have, and as far as the UI goes, ive been using the "galaxy" theme (ala mandrake 9.1) and ive found it to be well organized and pleasant. With all the talk of mplayer now, i think i need to go download the most recent version and check it out again, its been a year :).
Re:Publicity by mahdi13 · 2003-07-28 06:16 · Score: 1

That's right!
Damn Microsoft for allowing non-programmers to use computers! Damn them to Hell!!!

Sorry, but compiling from source and installing via RPM makes no difference!
"Oh, but compiling from source means it will run faster"
...It's a video player!!! What does 'run faster' suppose to mean? Sorry I don't speak "MicroMachine speed guy" and happen to like the 'dramatic pauses' in movies

The Linux community does not need elitists...we have SCO for that damage control

--
"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson

knoppix by Mr2cents · 2003-07-26 10:22 · Score: 3, Interesting

While they're at it, why don't they throw in a knoppix cd? boot.. play..

--
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey

Re:knoppix by aliens · 2003-07-26 10:27 · Score: 1

The agony of playing on a game off a knoppix boot would be too much I think.

--
-- taking over the world, we are.
Re:knoppix by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:37 · Score: 2, Funny

1. Sell linux game
2. Include knoppix cd
3. Answer billion support calls
4. ?
5. Bankruptcy!
Re:knoppix by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:31 · Score: 0

Really, this is a pretty good idea for when game playing takes off on linux. You could take off everything you don't need from knoppix, just the base linux system and game. Boot from CD and play, or install to HD just like regular knoppix.

Graphics Drivers by Eu4ria · 2003-07-26 10:22 · Score: 3, Interesting

I wonder it will only certain graphics cards will be supported. As I beleive was the case with UT2K3 only working on nvidia cards.

Re:Graphics Drivers by Sammich · 2003-07-26 10:35 · Score: 3, Informative

UT2K3 works fine with other video cards
Video System: 3D Accelerator card with 16 MB VRAM (*32-128 MB VRAM RECOMMENDED) 16 MB TNT2-class DirectX® version 6 compliant video card. (*NVIDIA GeForce 2/ATI Radeon RECOMMENDED) DirectX® version 8.1 (Included on game disc)

On a side note, I recently read an article about some programmers that said it was actually unbelievably easy to port their program to *nix from Windows. It was however an application/design program and not a game, but hell if Winex works. . . I'll see if I can find it.
Re:Graphics Drivers by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:46 · Score: 0

It uses nVidia-specific optimizations, so it runs faster on nVidia. Should run (slower) on other cards.
Re:Graphics Drivers by phoxix · 2003-07-26 12:29 · Score: 1

This is not true.
There used to be patent reasons why UT2k3 wouldn't work on DRI drivers, but now that was solved. But then there were technical reasons why UT2k3 didn't work on DRI drivers, and those are sort of solved. The game is just fine in DRI (but there are a few glitches and such).
And the ATI binary only DRI drivers do them just fine as well.
Sunny Dubey
Re:Graphics Drivers by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:38 · Score: 0

If ATi ever releases Linux drivers that can make a 9800 perform better than a geforce3 then maybe games would run on ATi cards in Linux.
Right now ATi's Linux drivers aren't even worth discussing when it comes to high-performance 3d.
Re:Graphics Drivers by Sammich · 2003-07-26 12:55 · Score: 1

The reason their drivers perform so poorly in Linux according to ATI/Linux users (don't know never used them)is that they don't create the Linux drivers themselves.
ATI actively assists qualified 3rd party Linux developers writing software for the majority of ATI products by providing them with development kits and information.
Re:Graphics Drivers by j450n · 2003-07-26 16:39 · Score: 1

The game uses OpenGL so it supports any hardware that properly supports OpenGL. You can get it upand running in a passable state with the earliest generation geforce/radeon cards, with newer cards of course yielding higher frame rates with higher detail settings.

-Jason
Programmer
S2 Games
Re:Graphics Drivers by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 23:17 · Score: 0

" The game uses OpenGL so it supports any hardware "

Jason, thanx for posting here and making so cool *Linux* games :)

Cheers

Portability in Linux by questamor · 2003-07-26 10:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

So Linux goes a long way to having a nice standard base system for portability. Is this another game released as a "Linux" game, but really meaning "Linux on x86" game?

I do get a bit pessimistic, and should probably RTFA

Re:Portability in Linux by Eu4ria · 2003-07-26 10:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

It is one thing to get developers away from Windows, it is another to get them to try and get all there code to work on every possible processor out there. Linux will run on tiny embeded systems, I dont think developers are going to be porting games to those any time soon :D
Re:Portability in Linux by curtlewis · 2003-07-26 10:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

While Linux is just a kernel which can run on a variety of processors, a full OS is another story. Distros are available for several platforms, but let's face it, if you want to be sure a Linux app works on your box or is even available, you'd best be running Linux on some form of x86.

Seeing as they'd never ship source for their game, I'm sure it's x86 binaries.

I guess that kills my plans of firing it up on my DEC Alpha...
Re:Portability in Linux by slux · 2003-07-26 10:43 · Score: 1

Right, it is indeed x86-only according to a post on LinuxGames by one of the developers IIRC. Don't know if you could've played it with DRI drivers anyway. PPC Linux users really get to notice why non-free software is bad. They don't get the 3D, Realplayer, Flash plugin etc.

Gotta love these guys even without the PPC port, the programmer responsible for the GNU/Linux port posting on the LG comment threads for Savage and very much feeling like he's "with us". And this one really seems like an original game.
Re:Portability in Linux by Nucleon500 · 2003-07-26 11:08 · Score: 1

Well I imagine it's Linux x86 (maybe even 586), because it's binary. Since they understandably won't release the source, they're the only ones who can port it to other architectures. However, once they've ported it to Linux and GCC, porting it to other CPUs and kernels should be little more than a recompile. When Linux takes off, hardware will get interesting again, because any platform with GCC, Linux, and X can compete with Intel on level ground.

--
Litigious bastards
Re:Portability in Linux by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:04 · Score: 0

do you bitch when games say for windows and they mean x86 instead of alpha or intels 64 bit setups? x86 is by far the most popular arch for gamers to be on. if you want to play games why bother with the expense and hassel of something else?
Re:Portability in Linux by moncyb · 2003-07-26 15:40 · Score: 1

I doubt a port to another processor would be just a recompile. I'm sure they wrote much of it in C, but many games use assembly for the critical sections. If the developers know the target processor, a port may not be a huge amount of work, but it will take time and resources the company may not be willing to spend. However, if they are working on a Mac port (I think they are), they'll have to translate the assembly anyway, so whatever processor current Macs run (PPC?) will probably get support in Linux...
The kind of portablilty you are talking about only works with compiled languages such as C.
Re:Portability in Linux by debrain · 2003-07-26 16:35 · Score: 1

So Linux goes a long way to having a nice standard base system for portability. Is this another game released as a "Linux" game, but really meaning "Linux on x86" game?

Red Hat is a Linux on x86 distribution; it would hardly be fair to hold game manufacturers to a higher standard than their largest commercial target.

This is not to say that supporting many available hardware platforms is not a good thing to do. Only that many of the distribution organizations are incapable or unwilling to provide the support that would make these hardware platforms a viable target.

There has to be some lowest common commodity platform to target; in many cases it's limited to Red Hat, or at best, Red Hat, Suse and Debian (the latter most notably available on almost all Linux platforms). Unless the targets are across multiple platforms, the games will surely never be across multiple platforms.
Re:Portability in Linux by Karn · 2003-07-26 17:03 · Score: 1

Do they really need to spend the effort porting the game so that a few people can show it off on a Zauras, or a few people with alphas can play it on their PCI video card?

Linux gaming is synonymous with Linux on x86 gaming, yes. If you're waiting for it to take off on the Alpha platform, regardless of OS, you're going to be waiting a long time.

--

Why do I keep typing pythong?
Re:Portability in Linux by vandan · 2003-07-26 19:54 · Score: 1

Yeah right.
All the people with Alphas as desktop PCs who are gaming fanatics and use their Alphas to play all the latest games, please put your hand up.

Right. I've finished counting you. I counted half a hand, but I think that was just a guy with a broken arm who couldn't put it all the way down.

Seriously, you must be some kind of weirdo if you think people are going to support all the platforms that run Linux. Think yourself lucky that decided to support ANY linux platform.

I bet you also start up that "It's not Linux. It's GNU/Linux" crap whenever possible...

Where have i heard this again.. hmm.. by arcanumas · 2003-07-26 10:23 · Score: 1

Why have heard this again now haven't we?
Can you Say NeverWinter Nights? (Well at least they DID release a Linux client)

--
Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.

Re:Where have i heard this again.. hmm.. by Kev6 · 2003-07-26 10:33 · Score: 1

I have the beta and I've running both the linux and windows versions, and their performance is pretty much the same.
Re:Where have i heard this again.. hmm.. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-27 16:00 · Score: 0

Can you Say NeverWinter Nights? (Well at least they DID release a Linux client)

And that's when I bought it. And it's expansion too.

I don't see why this is so difficult. by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 10:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't see why it's so difficult for all developers to do this with their games. After all, the majority of development work (Doom3 excused) is creating models, skinning, texturing, Lua scripting, storyboarding, animating, level designing, etc. Why is it so hard to put in another 2 weeks and use an OpenGL rendering plugin, SDL for input, etc. and compile it to run under a different OS? The engine, except for tremendously complex games, is really relatively minor work as far as I understand.

Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by sampowers · 2003-07-26 10:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

It has to do with decisions that the programmers made very early on. If they chose to use ActiveX and take full advantage of all the APIs that Windows as a platform offers, it's going to be very difficult (ie, almost a full rewrite of display, input, and sound code) to port it to another platform.

Smart designers plan for multi-platform use early on. Quake 3 was written portably, and its engine is in use on platforms as exotic as Sega Dreamcast and Playstation 2! And probably many more non-PC type computers. And it's used by a lot of other games too! (Nevermind the fact that those games play almost exactly like Quake 3. I'd like to see an RPG based on the Q3 engine, huh?)

BTW, it must be incredibly painful for anyone who writes a complex 3d graphics engine to hear you say that it's "minor work".
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by BlueTrin · 2003-07-26 10:43 · Score: 1

Because it costs too much money compared to what you ll earn. If you are targetting something else than the consumers who mostly do not know how to bypass protections or get cracks, you will not sell many copies.

That is why there are fewer and fewer games on PC now.

--
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 10:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

I see what you mean, but it's not so incredibly difficult to use wrapper functions/objects for this sort of thing. Plugins are even better, like the graphics output plugins in Unreal Tournament. (OpenGL? 3dfx Glide? Direct3D? S3-fucking-MeTaL? Great planning.)

I meant that it was relatively minor work compared to the rest of the game -- I have undertaken many simpler engine-building tasks and can say how daunting things like memory management can be in a game that needs to track hundreds or thousands of objects, without even getting into the 3D aspect. But compared to the lengthy process needed to build most games, from design to concept drawing to modeling to recording the voice acting -- the engine, while integral and obviously very involved, is by no means the most time-consuming part of the project. (I have not been involved in the development of full games, so if you have, please by all means interject and correct me.)

If you want a great example of how not to do an engine, check out Morrowind. ;)
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:10 · Score: 0

"track hundreds or thousands of objects"

put them in the ram or the hard drive.
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by chrisd · 2003-07-26 11:26 · Score: 5, Informative

For one thing, a number of companies are not rolling thier own graphic front ends anymore. For instance, for renderware and gamebryo, you need to pay your licence per platform. So if you are going to use these kinds of tools, you have to ask yourself, how much will publishing on linux actually make us? If that answer is (as it currently is right now) not much, then that is something that you need to consider. Keep in mind that licencing an engine can save you 1 or 2 years of development depending on your application.
This is not to intimate that there are renderware or gamebryo platform licences available. I'll put it another way, until a signifigant number of gamers say "I will pay 50$ for a game only when it hits linux natively (not transgaming or others)" then is when you will see linux reach parity with the Mac or windows. Currently, our research shows that hard core gamers that use linux are not loathe to reboot into windows or use an emulation technology. Until that changes, the state of linux gaming won't change either.
Also, describing the engine as minor shows you don't understand the state of AAA gaming. The engine would comprise a scenegraph, an interface to the video hardware (either via opengl, directx, console video, or a software renderer like pixomatic), the positional sound or mappings to other libraries like miles, AI connectors, physics or physics tie-ins to havoc, networking, matchmaking, and a variety of other components. Keep in mind that you can make most of this cross platform, but it's not like it just happens magically.
Chris DiBona

--
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:58 · Score: 0

It has a lot to do with mmorpgs. The have sucked over a million subscribers away from the quarterly video game buying market. Take that and the longer game building cycle nowadays because of how complex everything has become with 3d.

It has nothing to do with how well people know where to find cracks. 5 years ago when safedisc didn't exist and everything could be iso'd games still sold as much, if not more as they do nowadays.
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:52 · Score: 1, Insightful

Keep in mind that most game projects are underfunded, over-budget, and over-schedule at it is. More "relatively minor work" for no market return is a questionable choice.

Besides, if your game is actually released and successful, you can always port it later. Except that Loki proved that Linux users would rather run Windows than wait for a native product.
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 14:59 · Score: 1

You do make a good case.
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by cgenman · 2003-07-26 19:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

I have been involved in the development of several full games (though not as a programmer), both PC and console, so I will interject.

The design, artwork, and programming all go to some degree in parallel. And it is very true that many aspects of the process can be brought across platforms. But programming and debugging, once you hit the optimization phase, becomes problematic. Optimizations can cause problems on one console but not another, and fixes for such problems can break the first one. Keeping two computers perfectly synchronized for online play is quite a task, but keeping them synchronized on different operating systems is a nightmare.

My company has as many programmers and QA people as artists and designers. Don't underestimate the difficulty of such a task. And remember, that additional 5% sales you get from the other OS may be counterbalanced by lost sales due to missing your ship date, which can total millions of dollars per week. When numbers like that become involved, people start to believe that they would be better off tasking their programmers to making the game better on one platform, rather than trying to reach that last bit of audience.

And honestly, I can't fault them for that decision. Build a better game on the dominant platform or an engine that can reach the niche markets? If you are in the market of selling engines (like Id), your decision is clear. For the rest of us, we just want to make the best games we can.

--
The ______ Agenda
Re:I don't see why this is so difficult. by krogoth · 2003-07-27 09:57 · Score: 1

The current situation with WineX is actually very similar to the native Linux game situation. Even though it allows me to play more games than I would otherwise, a lot of popular games won't run on it - some do, but only a year or more after they're released.

It will always take a very good game to make me reboot just to play - the last one was Dungeon Siege, and the next one will probably be Half-Life 2.

--

They that quote Benjamin Franklin on liberty and safety deserve neither.

its the drivers silly by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

Probably because nvidia drivers are the only decent ones available for linux.

[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by theGreater · 2003-07-26 10:27 · Score: 1

*snikt*

along one player to act as a general while others do the actual fighting

*snakt*

Seriously, I -can't- be the ONLY one who immediately thought of the Orson Scott Card series, can I? But anyhoo, Bean is the one most of us SlashBots identify better with.

-theGreater Wiggin.

Re:[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by RichMan · 2003-07-26 10:32 · Score: 1

Are we all supposed to be genetically selected individuals who crawled out of toilets and are capable of calmly and strategically plotting the deaths of others.
Re:[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:40 · Score: 0

That's from Ender's Shadow, you silly goose!

Anyway, both books are great--Ender's Game, and Ender's Shadow. The other books in the series are pretty good, but younger people don't seem to like them as much.
Re:[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by theGreater · 2003-07-26 10:41 · Score: 1

You mean you DIDN'T? You're NOT going to kill me? Boy do I feel silly for all those extra practices...

-theGreater Phony.

PS: Probably I was referring more to the part where we're [stereotype] long on brains, short on charisma / leadership / people skills [/stereotype].
Re:[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by Dylan+Zimmerman · 2003-07-26 10:51 · Score: 2, Informative

This actually sounds a lot like the Half-Life mod Natural Selection to me. The aliens have special powers (they can see anything that any alien can see, even through walls) and the marines have a commander who tells them what to do. It makes it an RTS for one person and an FPS for everyone else. The normal players can call up the commander and ask for health and weapons, too. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. I've tried to play it, but it never did work on my machine.

Anyway, this game sounds like it will be two marine groups against each other.
Re:[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by interiot · 2003-07-26 11:22 · Score: 1

Natural Selection is still an RTS for everyone in that there's a general economy that everyone participates in... every individual has the job of protecting resource gatherers, and has the job of alerting resource harvester builders where there's open resources.
Re:[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by AndroidCat · 2003-07-26 11:31 · Score: 1

They could do Duke Nukem Forever like that. One player gets to be Duke's brain. The rest of the players are other organs and body parts. It could work!

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Re:[redundant?] Ender's WHAT? by tabby · 2003-07-26 23:50 · Score: 1

It's not an RTS for me. To quote that guy from Starship Troopers(movie) "I'm just here to fight". I'm one of those valuable troops that just shuts up, follows orders, shoots the bad guys and as a result gets given the good equipment. ;-)

More to the point screw linux, where's my Mac HalfLife2 ?!?!?!?

--
I've experiments to run, there is research to be done on the people who are still alive.

LINUX GAMING MODE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

Why not include the option with linux to boot it into a special "Gaming Mode" that loads only what is needed to play games and nothing else? Would this make them run faster than on Windows that forces 100's of MB of crap to load no matter what.

Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by zr-rifle · 2003-07-26 10:55 · Score: 0

That's what Gentoo is doing with it's Game CDs. I wouldn't be suprised to see Gentoo Games make an agreement with software houses to publish and sell Gentoo Game CD versions of their most popular games, thus evolving the linux games market from where Loki left off.

--
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by zurab · 2003-07-26 10:59 · Score: 1

Hmm... I think it'd be interesting to combine this idea with an earlier poster's idea of including a bootable Linux CD with the game - just boot from the CD and play. Obvious disadvantage being that getting back to your "normal" mode would include a reboot.

Now if hardware allowed running multiple OSes then you could run wild with your imagination... but that's an x86 flaw.
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:13 · Score: 0

Don't you guys know anything? Linux is a decent OS that can swap out and completely ignore what little "crap" it has loaded when you play a game. So unless you're running a heavily loaded server in the background, the game will run exactly as though you had made your reminiscent-of-the-early-90s special boot disk.
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by Idealius · 2003-07-26 11:23 · Score: 1

Now THAT's an idea. One problem, though: Millions of kiddie's sending game developers questions about how to get a driver for their winmodem, 3D graphics accel, etc. This stuff obviously can't be done automagically. Beyond that, it's a pleasant dream..
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by djcapelis · 2003-07-26 11:41 · Score: 1

As user-mode-linux gets better... who's to say it requires a reboot? Why not just slowly load a foriegn kernel and slowly pass control of the hardware as it asks for it... so windows can just boot natively from linux, and linux kinda shuts down at the same time.

--
I touch computers in naughty places
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by BlueTrin · 2003-07-26 12:02 · Score: 1

Well, that's called do not install what you do not need and it is already avaible on most of the distributions.

--
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by Namaseit · 2003-07-26 12:15 · Score: 1

Well you can increase your framerates alittle just by loading the game stright from terminal with x instead through kde or gnome. Example: "startx -e savage" then it only loads the game and no gui. i do it with NWN, Ut2k3, Tribes2, Enemy Territory, AA, Morrowind.

--
75% of all statistics are made up!
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by Meat+Blaster · 2003-07-26 12:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

I used to do something similar with QuakeWorld on Linux back when efficient CPU management was more necessary for me -- "init 1", then ran the services I needed manually (ppp). It should be possible to create your own runlevel that does this automatically, or better yet for the distributions to allow easier customizations of runlevels they aren't using, which in most cases would permit at least 2, 3, and 4 to be used for alternative configs.
This approach should be nothing new to hardcore gamers, or even dabblers that grew up with PC games before Windows 95, because most of the games actually came with instructions to roll your own DOS bootdisk. But using "init" it is possible to allow the user to switch Linux into "Gaming Mode" as well as allowing such an option to be chosen at boot time.
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:15 · Score: 0

Not to be condecending or anything, but the simple answer is:
Buy a console!
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 14:03 · Score: 0

Not to be condescending or anything, but it's

condescending

-- Your friendly neighborhood spelling nazi
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by El+Cubano · 2003-07-26 15:19 · Score: 1

Why not include the option with linux to boot it into a special "Gaming Mode" that loads only what is needed to play games and nothing else? Would this make them run faster than on Windows that forces 100's of MB of crap to load no matter what.

You mean like using the different run levels?
Re:LINUX GAMING MODE by Jonner · 2003-08-02 14:47 · Score: 1

Exactly. Linux (the kernel) doesn't need to be concerned with stuff like that, since it can be handled from user space. That's one of the fundamental advantages *nix has over Windoze, in which the user can't even see the division between kernel and user.

Re:Honor the GPL by nightcrawler77 · 2003-07-26 10:36 · Score: 1

Given the choice of losing one customer vs. giving the game and source away for free to everyone, I can't imagine they will lose much sleep after choosing the former.

--

"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton

Re:Honor the GPL by curtlewis · 2003-07-26 10:42 · Score: 1

Well, if you refuse to pay for anything, then you need to:

Return your computer to the store, you paid for it.
Empty your fridge and dump all your food, you paid for it.
Toss your fridge, you or someone paid for THAT.
Move out of your house/apartment, you pay for that.

I think I've made my point...

Linux and Windows on the same CD? by zr-rifle · 2003-07-26 10:43 · Score: 3, Funny

Seems like the battle will start way before the game is installed...

--
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.

Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by unshaven23 · 2003-07-26 10:46 · Score: 1

Oh my, just had some weird flash back from another game that boasted full linux support. Eventually it only took them just long enough for the neverwinter nights discs to disappear under the pile of junk nobody dares to touch on my desk.

I'm sorry, but I've given up on corporations that make games and claim linux support. I think it's more of a marketing strategy than a goal for game developers (and their employers).

Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by Xoid629 · 2003-07-26 11:28 · Score: 1

The difference here is that the Linux version is apparently going to be on the same CD as the Windows one, so they will presumably come out at the same time. Another post around here somewhere indicates that there is already a Linux beta for Savage. There may have been rumors about NWN having Linux support from the regular disc, but as far as I know that was never promised by the company (correct me if I'm wrong about that). While we're on the topic of NWN, it seems to me that that method of handing Linux porting (after release and low priority) isn't really so bad, since I can see that there isn't enough of a market for it to be a big deal to the publisher. At least there is a client eventually. The major problem with what Bioware did was the vague promises about the Linux client coming shortly after release when they obviously hadn't even started. I recall stories about two weeks or a month, and then by the time it actually got the beta it seemed like there was about that period spent on legal issues and library portability problems that should have been resolved before even announcing a port. Anyway -- I don't have any problem with companies being slow about Linux ports if they actually do make them, but I wish they would be straightforward about it.
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by MeanMF · 2003-07-26 11:38 · Score: 1

The difference here is that the Linux version is apparently going to be on the same CD as the Windows one, so they will presumably come out at the same time.

That'll last up right until the point that the Windows version is ready and there are still problems with the Linux version. Or the point when it's late and they need to commit all of their resources towards getting the Windows version shipped.
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by Rhone · 2003-07-26 11:49 · Score: 1

Yeah, I'm sure the time Bioware spent on finally getting the Linux client finished was just part of their deceptive "marketing strategy".
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by Dunkalis · 2003-07-26 11:56 · Score: 1

Well, they did promise it. Then they didn't.

At the beginning, they promised to have Windows, Mac, Linux, AND BeOS support. Be died, so they dropped that, which is logical. I don't know if they ever finished the Mac port...

--
Slashdot is a waste of time. I enjoy wasting time.
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by Xoid629 · 2003-07-26 12:03 · Score: 1

Well, they did promise it. Then they didn't.
Oh, ok, I didn't follow the anouncments closely until right before the release.
I don't know if they ever finished the Mac port...
Assuming you mean NWN here, I think the the Mac version is due out in a couple of weeks, ie more than a year after the Windows release.
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:39 · Score: 0

There's a difference here: the Savage Linux support is being tested in the beta. And it works quite nicely, thank you very much :-)
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:00 · Score: 0

Bioware are idiots. They also put out they latest expansion touting hours of fun. Not once did they happen to mention this expansion isn't for advanced characters. You're supposed to roll yourself a new guy, what a pos.
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by nimblebrain · 2003-07-26 20:15 · Score: 1

Whatever Bioware's been doing on the Linux client, despite a long turnaround, it works just great.

The only problems I ran into were updating NVidia's drivers (with which you need "nvidia" in your XConfig-4 file, as well as uncommenting/adding Load "glx" to get the OpenGL extensions working properly), and setting it to 24 bpp as a color depth (the NWN client gives a very unhelpful single line "Error" if you do not - discovered the solution in the forums in five minutes, but still...)

Past that, it worked, and was pretty easy to set up, to boot. Did the "./fixinstall" as per their instructions, and "./nwn" brought up the game.

I works indentically to the original - save for the cutscenes (no Bink video port yet), not a single crash on my machine, and snappy. The file access is a little bit faster as well (compared to FAT32), which I can hardly complain about :)

Reduces my excuses for firing up Win98 to do some gaming with :)

--
Binary geeks can count to 1,023 on their fingers :)
Re:Neverwinter Nights Deja Vu by unshaven23 · 2003-07-26 21:33 · Score: 1

Including them lying about not having a linux compatible video player? Hey, they finally did it, so no complaints on that department, but I doubt that they planned on actually supporting linux from the start, as it took them nearly a year. I'm all for games being ported to linux, but if you're the least bit serious about cross platform code it won't take you a year to achieve a port.

IMHO what happened was that they marketed the game for several platforms, noticed that they were biting the hand that fed them, and then started working on it.

So what? I played the game using good old crash-o-matic (windows), got a game that was below par compared to some of their other titles (eg Baldurs Gate, Torment). That aside, I spent countless evenings tinkering with it to create my own adventure. But in retrospect, this game was completely overhyped. They spent so much attention to making grass move that a battle between an elf and orc army even ran slowly on a P4 with 512M RAM and an Nvidia GeForce 4. I spent many hours looking for a reason when I turned on or off lights in an area, only half of them would turn on or off. It was a bug in the RecalculateStaticLighting() function in their engine (which is still not fixed BTW). I spent an equal amount of time figuring out why factions sometimes didn't work the way they explained it.

Am I upset with Bioware? Yes. Why? Because they promised me a game that would allow me to do virtually anything, run a client on linux, and I got a (at the time) windows only game, that had trouble adjusting lighting on an area larger than 5x5, an ran slowly if there were more than 10 people in one scene. And because I don't like to get screwed by companies when I spend money that I worked for and don't deliver on their promise.

And that why I'm so wary about companies that promise something that I've heard before and got nothing out of.

Re:Honor the GPL by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:46 · Score: 0

Yeah, since clearly all software written for linux, or any unix-like operating system *needs* to be GPL'ed. Following that logic i should have the full source for ut2k3 and q3a laying around...hrm...funny, i cant't find it.

Someone has done this before by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · 2003-07-26 10:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Unreal Tournament 2003 runs fine under Linux. You have to watch out for the installer bug and the supermount bugs but those problems and their work-arounds are well documented

--
This guy is way out there

Reviews by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:55 · Score: 0

If the game gets decent marks I will pick it up and run it under Linux. I will happily support games that run under Linux. Just recently bought Never Winter Nights and Unreal Tournament 2003 to play under Linux.

Good on them, but how about this? by Space+Coyote · 2003-07-26 10:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

They should buncle a Linux distro with every game as well, to really push the envelope. Many computer gamers are fairly adept PC users but may not bother to give linux a try, but having the CD right ther emight spark the curiousity of a good chunk of them.

--
___
Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.

No Single Player? by Eberlin · 2003-07-26 10:56 · Score: 2, Interesting

The FAQ on the game site itself at www.s2games.com says there's no single player mode. While I agree that multiplayer would be much more fun, it would be a bit more challenging for folks like myself who aren't efficient killers in these types of games. Why not have a single-player "wuss mode" to get one's feet wet?

As for playing "General" let's be realistic here. The chances of getting that seat is slim since you can only have one general per team.

Re:No Single Player? by Rhone · 2003-07-26 11:58 · Score: 1

Yeah, it's kind of disappointing. I like to support Linux games, but I like to play games by myself. Computer games are my way of having fun _without_ relying on other people.

I bought Terminus, most of Loki's ports, and NWN (along with the SoU expansion), but it looks like I'm going to have to leave this one alone. As much as I'd like to support them for developing for Linux, paying $50+ USD for a game I can't play on my own isn't something I can justify to myself.
Re:No Single Player? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:20 · Score: 0

Me, too. If I could buy Linux supported games like this at my local software store, I would scoop them up in a minute, not just for my personal pleasure but also to toss some money their direction for being Linux friendly.

But I can't do that here! Multi-player only? Yuck. I, too, am a single-player kind of guy.
Re:No Single Player? by EzInKy · 2003-07-27 00:29 · Score: 1

I'll chime in here too, but I think it's a lost cause. There are some good games that are either natively supported or will work with winex, but by far the majority are multiplayer or fp shooters. Those of us who prefer a good adventure are pretty much out of luck.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

Re:Honor the GPL by bersl2 · 2003-07-26 10:58 · Score: 1

Um... last time I checked, you could run non-GPL'ed programs on a Linux system.

Java games by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

What would be really cool is if we started seeing more games written in Java. Then there would be no issues about Linux vs Windows or anything else. Before anyone starts going on about "Java is too slow for wordprocessors, much less games", Java now has a 3d api that allows fast access to hardware 3d acceleration. Java games could be just as fast as non-Java games. In fact, GPU speed is the bottleneck now, not CPU speed, so if Java is taking up a little more CPU it won't matter.

Re:Java games by moncyb · 2003-07-26 15:50 · Score: 1

My beef with Java is the fact most implementations (which are mostly Sun's) use JIT compilers instead of compiling it at install time. JIT is good for small programs which are only run once, but for everyday programs, it is a PITA. Not only does the thing take forever to start up, but it will often load a class while I am running the program. Select menu item....wait thirty seconds....get dialog box, make choices.....wait thirty seconds....returns to program. It sucks bigtime.
I don't know why Sun is so obsessed with JIT compiling, it would work a thousand times better if they would at least cache the compiles or something. Then again, they're a hardware manufacturer. I suppose they have to create incentives for buying the latest and greatest. Customer frustration be damned.

Mac Gamers! by AntiOrganic · 2003-07-26 10:58 · Score: 4, Funny

This is all Linux needs to overtake Mac as the gaming platform of choice!

Reminds me of that Mac Gamers video... Photoshop.

Re:Mac Gamers! by Biogenesis · 2003-07-26 12:51 · Score: 1

Classic quote from mac parody videos:

"See this handle, you can tie a chain to it and use it as a F#$KING BOAT ANCHOR!"

--
...just so Google finds it.
Re:Mac Gamers! by tabby · 2003-07-26 23:44 · Score: 1

"You idiot!!! You own a macintosh!! The file is fscking gone!!!", Mac Norton Utilities.

--
I've experiments to run, there is research to be done on the people who are still alive.

Tech Support by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 10:59 · Score: 0

I think it's tech support. They would have to provide tech support for Linux in the same way that they do for Windows. That would mean hiring and training new people.

Re:Tech Support by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:39 · Score: 0

Tech support? Uh, what? What's that?

Post a user forum and listen for bug fixes, etc that can't be handled by users. When users grow to a point to really justify hiring support personnel, hire the gamers that answer questions the best. If _that_ good getting down with the game and also good with *nix then they just might need a job anyway :-p

Linux version runs well by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:00 · Score: 3, Interesting

I can personally say that I have been in the beta test of this game, and the Linux version runs just as well as the windows version on my machine. And so far, aside from the normal beta crap, bugginess, and elitist attitudes of some of the testers, the game ranks up there for me, with BF1942, and Counter Strike. Just my 2 cents.

Re:Linux version runs well by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:54 · Score: 1, Funny

BF1942, and Counter Strike? Oh my god this game sucks!!
Re:Linux version runs well by BlueTrin · 2003-07-26 11:59 · Score: 1

He probably means that the game will go trough several months after release of beta testing before to get a decent netcode and some gameplay.

--
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
Re:Linux version runs well by heftysmurf · 2003-07-26 17:33 · Score: 1

I have also been beta testing for savage. I can contest to the fact that Savage is a great game and that the linux version is just as good as the windows version. Check the game reviews out there, you'll find that Savage is ranking quite high up there in the reviews.

Re:Honor the GPL by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:01 · Score: 0

Oops, wrong place in the thread... me sowwy...

believe it when you see it by DrSkwid · 2003-07-26 11:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

Maybe now one company's had the balls to actually go ahead and do this

"the upcoming hybrid strategy game"

they've had the balls to announce it and we've heard it all before

--
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter

Re:believe it when you see it by kikensei · 2003-07-26 17:55 · Score: 1

I've seen it. I was accepted as a beta tester for Savage. It ran fine on Linux, although install was not polished. This is a few months ago though. I didn't play much, 'cause well it was an early beta, and I didn't have much patience. The only reason I offered to test was because I saw they were offering a linux client. Not sure if its my type of game, but the Linux client is real and should be on disk in box.

yeah, can't imagine a PS2 game on a CD by DrSkwid · 2003-07-26 11:05 · Score: 1

it would just be the end

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There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter

A Way to Increase Linux Market Share... by kmilani2134 · 2003-07-26 11:08 · Score: 1

I have been wondering if the following scenario would work to increase the Linux Market Share.

What if a person or a company with many millions of dollars were to negotiate a deal with all game developers for them to produce all of their games on Linux first, before making it available on Windows. I would guess that many people might either switch to Linux or dual boot Linux in order to play the new games. It would cost next to nothing for people to install Linux in order to play the games.

If I was wealthy, it would be an experiment I would like to try.

--
Those who trade freedom for security will lose both, and deserve neither" -- Ben Franklin

Re:A Way to Increase Linux Market Share... by Idealius · 2003-07-26 11:31 · Score: 1

Hat off to you, excellent idea. We need to get people to a free OS before Microsoft *starts* to actually do something about piracy. I understand why apps costs $$ -- OS's costing money is plain silly with barely-unacceptable free alternatives (linux & variants) existing.
One modification to your plan, though. Why must you do it with all game developers, just do it for one game and that would be enough to push people into installing Linux.
I think people's problems these days are that they want to get people to switch over to Linux, when they should realize the first step should be to get them into a dual-booting situation, then go from there.

LINUX GAMING MODE = Windows by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:09 · Score: 0

...Because if you have to reboot before you play anyway, what's the flipping point of having the game run on Linux?

Same "hybrid" in Half Life mod by AmVidia+HQ · 2003-07-26 11:14 · Score: 1

Natural Selection

It's basically "Starcraft in action".

PS. v.2 is coming out on July 31

--
VIVA1023.com | Political Fashion.

Re:Same "hybrid" in Half Life mod by Archon-X · 2003-07-26 12:57 · Score: 1

except as a beta tester, i'd have to tell you that it's basically not :D
Re:Same "hybrid" in Half Life mod by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 13:04 · Score: 0

I was waiting for someone to mention NS. Same concept it looks like but on a much higher level. You have more than 2 developers working on this and the graphics engine is far advanced (5 year old HL engine).

It looks to have a lot of potential and will probably steal a number of NS fans away.
Re:Same "hybrid" in Half Life mod by AmVidia+HQ · 2003-07-26 16:07 · Score: 1

unpolished and unbalanced, i know.

i'm just saying it "pioneered" this hybrid concept, in a game that's at least fun and playable.

--
VIVA1023.com | Political Fashion.

Re:Honor the GPL by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:22 · Score: 0

My mistake too, should have clicked "parent" and double checked heh

Linux and PC version??? by KamuZ · 2003-07-26 11:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

Just a tought... Why sites use "Linux" and "PC" version like if they were different, i mean i HAVE a PC with WINDOWS and LINUX. They make it sound weird.

Anyway, i believe it's like telling people the difference in "hacker" and "cracker".

Re:Linux and PC version??? by Clockwurk · 2003-07-26 11:39 · Score: 1

Anyway, i believe it's like telling people the difference in "hacker" and "cracker".

Yeah, one breaks in to computers and the other is a derogatory term for a white person or a dry food served with peanut butter or in soup.
Re:Linux and PC version??? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 11:56 · Score: 0

For that matter why say 'Mac' and 'PC.' Especially seeing as how PC was coined by Steve Jobs.
Re:Linux and PC version??? by Rhone · 2003-07-26 12:13 · Score: 1

For some reason, "PC" seems to be used only to refer to Wintel. It's kind of silly. I keep wondering why a Mac can't be considered a "personal computer".
Re:Linux and PC version??? by Zorikin · 2003-07-26 20:28 · Score: 1

No no no, you have a Windows PC which is also a Linux Workstation! "PC" sounds like a toy - it even rhymes - while "Workstation" sounds like a piece of heavy machinery.
Re:Linux and PC version??? by ptr2void · 2003-07-26 23:49 · Score: 1

It's a relic of the past. In the old days, there was IBM - which made the PC (with DOS) - and there was Apple which made the Macintosh.

Game publishers have never overcome that distinction. DOS has become WinDOS, but other than that, the world hasn't changed. OK, maybe there's nVidia now, but that's about it :-)

Still, the dinstinction is at least technically correct. Even if Apple is using more and more PC components, the architecture remains different.

What makes a PC running Linux a non-PC is of course beyond me :-)

To all the NWN trolls by Drakker · 2003-07-26 11:28 · Score: 4, Informative

As a linux beta tester, I can tell you that the Linux version is every bit as good, if not better (more stable) than the windows version.

Patches for the beta are released at the same time for linux and windows and linux performances are equal or better than windows (if you run a lightweight WM, or no WM at all and no other proggy, you WILL see a difference).

Every features of the game, even the little graphical details no one would notice are in the Linux version, auto updater included.

So, there, if you dare miss this game cuz of all the FUD you see here, I'm really sorry for you.

Re:To all the NWN trolls by BlueTrin · 2003-07-26 11:56 · Score: 1

What do you mean by more stable ? I have seen really few games these years that are not stable or patched in the next days even on Windows.

--
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
Re:To all the NWN trolls by Drakker · 2003-07-26 12:06 · Score: 1

We rarely hear about linux crashes, and I've encountered very few in my first times in the beta, right now it doesnt crash anymore.

Still, theres lots of bug reports about crashes on windows... though its not that bad and for most of the windows tester its perfectly stable. It must have something to do with all those Dell, HP and Gateway machines out there... ;)

Disclaimer: this what I have found out so far, I may be totaly wrong. Dont take what I wrote for granted.
Re:To all the NWN trolls by katre · 2003-07-26 12:42 · Score: 1

So, there, if you dare miss this game cuz of all the FUD you see here, I'm really sorry for you.

I'm not missing out on NWN because of the FUD. I'm not buying it because I was a very happy little linux gamer when I paid tuxgames my $50 for the game about 2 weeks before it was due out. And then out came the Windows version, and the Linux version was "delayed". And kept being delayed. Finally, SIX MONTHS LATER, I cancelled my order and got my money back. Saying you're going to release the linux client simultaneously with the Windows and then not coming out with it for a year is not behavior I can accept. I am voting with my wallet. I will never buy NWN.
Re:To all the NWN trolls by Drakker · 2003-07-26 14:34 · Score: 1

The thing is, I was not writing about NWN but about Savage. :)

There were too many people saying that savage would be the next NWN when everything points to the fact that they are on schedule to release the linux version at the same time as the windows version.

Hell, they could even release the linux version first, but they want one box for both version, and frankly, its the best they can do.
Re:To all the NWN trolls by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 14:41 · Score: 0

It's comments like that which stop companies bothering to develop games for Linux. NWN was pushed out the door by Atari (Infogrames) and was buggy in the Windows version. Games have delays and the all of about 3 companies which actually bother to develop games with Linux support won't make the effort if all they get is people pissing and moaning about broken promises.

Would you have preferred them to simply forget about Linux instead of spending an additional 6 months plus of their time adding support when 90% of their customer base couldn't care less - that's what your 'voting' will ensure happens next time.

...And it's a good game, too! by elzbal · 2003-07-26 11:32 · Score: 5, Interesting

I've been in the beta playing Savage for the past few weeks now on my Gentoo Linux box. It's actually a really good game. The combat is very different - it focuses heavily on melee weapons, so you can't just hit everybody from a distance - you eventually have to get into the chaos and get bloody. Performance and graphics are great.

I would recommend Savage to any gamers who run Linux - keep this one on your watch list.

wrong rationale methinks by DrSkwid · 2003-07-26 11:35 · Score: 1

cos xbox & ps2 pirate games make more money than pc pirate games

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There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter

Re:wrong rationale methinks by BlueTrin · 2003-07-26 11:45 · Score: 1

But editors sells more games on Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube than on PC.

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Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?

Woohoo! by darth_silliarse · 2003-07-26 11:40 · Score: 1

A "game" gets Linux support! Whoa! I must buy that "game" just to convince the "games" publishers that Linux is an OS worth supporting! Woohoo!....... then again I could just download Angband or NetHack and f**k the publisher :o)

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I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born - Ronald Reagan

Smacks Chris up the side: any requisite braincell by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 12:22 · Score: 0

Yo, Chris, with all freaking due respect you bein' an alum and all, and me bein' a lowlife who hung out on ZD-Net for the 90s; I gotta wonder - what are you smoking! Pay for a game engine??? I've been researching this for my own projects for better than two years and bucko: there's more LGPL and GPL and low-cost commercial engines than can be conveniently counted on inches of Emperor Snail penis!

Just off the top of my head? (no pun intended): Crystal Space, Genesis, Obsidian, Nebula, Blackfish, Cake, Ogre... and ghu, just as many physics engines. I'll admit after 30 years in the biz that these look just a bit incompatible, but licensewise? Any company can take a piece left, right and upwise and make a damned good, utterly personalized, and completely crossplatform engine from them!

I gotta ask for clarification Chris, WTHHH are you talkin' about?

-John Le'Brecage

Already there! by segfaultdot · 2003-07-26 12:38 · Score: 2, Funny

Linux has had Savage support for a long time!

http://www.xfree86.org/4.1.0/savage.4.html

(It's a joke, dang it!)

Re:Already there! by toomuchPerl · 2003-07-26 15:42 · Score: 1

Albeit a hardly hilarious one.

yee gads.. by haaz · 2003-07-26 12:43 · Score: 0, Flamebait

at first I thought the headline meant Michael Savage (right-wingnut talk show host) was going to support Linux. Wow, that would be something...

Caller: Hi, um, I'm trying to install XFree86 on my MacTell box with a PowerPC G3 upgrade, running LinuxPPC 1999 Q3. Why is it segfaulting when X starts up?

Savage: Only gay homosexual communists (liberals) use PowerPC, much less a clone made by a company that couldn't figure out how to ride Apple for all they were worth. What the hell are you doing with LinuxPPC? Didn't you hear everything that Smith guy said about the president of the company barfing on Steve Jobs? Watch out, or he'll invite Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein over for lunch with you and your mother -- and they'll eat your mother!

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-- haaz.

Sounds Like BS by Raven42rac · 2003-07-26 12:57 · Score: 1

Sounds like BS, remember a little game called Neverwinter Nights??

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I hate sigs.

Re:Sounds Like BS by Archon-X · 2003-07-26 12:59 · Score: 1

Well, I know the lead programmer, and you have to coax him with many illicit substances items and things that will cause him to forget before he's prepared to use windows as his desktop machine. It's coded natively and properly, and runs just as if not more smoothly on linux as it does on windows :)

Bad box art. by Ignominious+Poltroon · 2003-07-26 13:05 · Score: 1

And they say bad box art is a thing of the past.

Chris Resists Smacking with a +1 short bus helmet by chrisd · 2003-07-26 13:08 · Score: 2, Informative

IF those engines work for you, then use them! I didn't mean to dis any of them with my post, I was trying to get the point across from an "industry" perspective. The question of what engine to use is not trivial though.

Suppose you decide to use Crystal Space, for instance, I can't really find out if there is any real tool support for max or maya that you'd get with a renderware or ndl licence. Those plugins are really kind of important to a number of studios.

All I'm saying with my post is that cross platfrom compatibility is always a cost issue for a commercial game studio. Whether those latforms are windows and the mac, or an xboc and a ps2 or all three and a gamecube. It's more than just assets. I know a lot of companies that have chosen renderware with all the (expensive) bells and whistles because it got them closest to the write once run anywhere goal. But that's me guessing more than a real opinion :-)

That said, I stand by my economic argument. Linux needs a larger dedicated gamer fanbase that would make the extra platform costs worth it. Until then, I think that transgaming and icculus are the saviours of gaming on linux.

Chris

--
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.

Sacrifice or what? by T0t0r0_fan · 2003-07-26 13:18 · Score: 1

Btw, first looking at the screenshots I almost thought about the other game - Sacrifice(possibly Myth) which I think was also supposed to have similar style...Not as much first-person though. More on the topic: it was quite annoying to me that there were two versions for a similar price: first, I'd buy the windoze version of the game that I was otherwise dying for(Jagged Alliance 2 :), although that's a bit too old for a good example), then I find out about the Linux version...and have to buy it, too! Hopefuly the game devs are going to be as kind as this one to think about other platforms before releasing...

alice, an rpg on the q3 engine by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 14:08 · Score: 0

its a continuation of through the looking glass (or something like that) kinda game that makes you miss the lil girl that used to live your closet...

put out by amercan mcgee

Demo? by Alsee · 2003-07-26 14:20 · Score: 1

Any chance anyone knows if there's demo or beta or something available for download? Sounds like a cool game but I really preffer a better look at a game before buying it.

-

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

Re:Demo? by j450n · 2003-07-27 01:41 · Score: 1

There will be a public dmeo available in close proximity to launch, for both platforms. -Jason Programmer, S2 Games
Re:Demo? by Alsee · 2003-07-27 02:41 · Score: 1

Cool, thanx. I'll bookmark the site and check for it later.

-

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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.

No way! by Enonu · 2003-07-26 14:33 · Score: 0, Troll

I don't think Savage would ever support a red commie diaper doper baby OS such as Linux.

Huh? by j4ck50n · 2003-07-26 14:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

"With games makers keeping their games sensibly small ..."

What? Small? How many recent games ship on one disk or dont consume over a GB of space?

Currently installed:

Medieval Total War - 1.96GB

Vice City - 1.57 GB

Half Life with Mods - 1.1GB

Mafia - 1.87 GB

Midnight Club 2 - 1.49GB

Never Winter shipped on 3, Splinter Cell on 3, etc.

Storage is cheap both CD and HDD, but games are hardly small these days.

Re:Huh? by tabby · 2003-07-27 00:01 · Score: 1

Yeah but most of that is graphics, audio and video. How much of that is executable/binary content?

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I've experiments to run, there is research to be done on the people who are still alive.

On same CD - Bad Idea? by Schnapple · 2003-07-26 15:46 · Score: 1

The main reason that they decided to put the different ports of Quake 3 in different boxes was to see how many of each sold. 95% of the copies were Windows, ~4% were Mac, and ~1% were Linux. Of course, Activision passed on the Linux port so it wound up in the hands of less-capable Loki, meaning it took too long to get to stores and most Linux people just bought the Windows port instead. And of course Macintosh has very little retail presence, so that accounts for that. So now I see Savage will have the Linux client on the same CD/in the same box as the Windows version. Bravo. However, I see this as a bad thing in the long run since it's less obvious to the marketing gurus which version "sold". When the next game comes along and the developer is trying to sell the publisher on giving them enough time and money to get a Linux port going, the publisher will probably balk since they don't "see" more Linux sales. Sure, if it's a multiplayer game there's bound to be some way of seeing who's playing on what platform, but to a publisher, only dollars count.

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Schnapple

Re:On same CD - Bad Idea? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 23:33 · Score: 0

quote:

However, I see this as a bad thing in the long run since it's less obvious to the marketing gurus which version "sold". :endquote

Since the game is MP only, they will probably get a very good statistic on how many people of each platform _play_ the game.
Re:On same CD - Bad Idea? by ptr2void · 2003-07-26 23:42 · Score: 1

so it wound up in the hands of less-capable Loki

AFAIK, if Loki hadn't done Q3/Linux, there would be no Q3/Linux at all. id wasn't doing a Linux port initially. Q3/Linux was simply late because development wasn't started at the same time as Q3/Windows. Besides that, Loki was a really capable company. The Loki Linux games that I played surpassed their competition by a great amount.

Whatever - on the short run, bundled Windows+Linux versions are better than no native Linux version at all. The alternative is Wine[X] and stinks. At the current market penetration of Linux in the gamer segment, sales won't convince the managers anyway. Unbundling makes sense (for the Linux community) when we've overtaken the Mac and reached about 10%. I really hope Linux will make it... we're close now, very close. ATI and nVidia in the boat (though with less than perfect drivers), Linux 2.6 just around the corner.

I would pay for good Linux games!!! by MsGeek · 2003-07-26 16:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

Actually s/games/apps . If someone put out a DVD Player that was blessed by the DVD Forum, I would pay for it in a New York Minute. I have paid for Linux games in the past...my copy of Unreal Tournament is bought and paid for, so too Hexen and Myth II: Soulblighter.

I want to buy UT2003 to be supportive and to send in my registration card stating it's playing under Linux, but I can't bring myself to do so because all the "improvements" made to UT2K3 have ruined gameplay. I can't bring myself to buying a game that sucks, just to show I am rah-rah supportive of Linux Gaming.

I don't think I'm the only Linux user who would actually pay money for decent Linux apps. C'mon! Bring 'em on!

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Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.

Re:I would pay for good Linux games!!! by drinkypoo · 2003-07-26 20:19 · Score: 1

If PowerDVD 5 were ported to linux I would pay $50 for it. Given that an apex dvd player which will load all major formats and has digital audio output costs that much, I think it's a fair price. I do want support for digital audio output, though.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:I would pay for good Linux games!!! by MsGeek · 2003-07-27 14:52 · Score: 1

The makers of PowerDVD *do* have a Linux version of their software. However, they will not sell it, no way, no how. They only want to deal with OEMs. Bastards.

--
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Re:I would pay for good Linux games!!! by drinkypoo · 2003-07-27 18:55 · Score: 1

So who OEMs PowerDVD on Linux devices?

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

wish it had been quake3 by SanityInAnarchy · 2003-07-26 16:15 · Score: 1

I don't know what people think of this game (besides "Cool! It runs on Linux!" But let me say this about the FPS/RTS blending -- it's been done.

Natural Selection (a Half-Life mod) has been around for awhile -- with the marines, one person (the Commander) has traditional RTS-style capabilities, including building structures, dealing with resources, even ordering around troops (which are composed of living, breathing players). All aliens are first-person, but any one alien can become a Gorge, which can build structures -- and as the team acquires more resources/hives/bases, the team evolves -- with aliens literally (all the way to giant cows), with humans in the form of equipment upgrades.

I can't exactly diss Savage, not having seen it yet (screenshots don't mean jack to me), but if everyone's going to love it so much because it's an FPS/RTS -- go buy a Half-Life key (BlueShift is $5-15 now) and download NS, at least until Savage is out.

--
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!

Can you say UT2k3? by qu4rtz · 2003-07-26 17:06 · Score: 0

Come to think of it, that is kind of a mouthful... Well, regardless, everyone cites NWN as the major example of a company not delivering on the promise on a linux-compatible game packaged with a windows one, as if it's going to set a precedent. What about epic and UT2k3? The "promise" for that came kind of close to the release date, but they delivered, didn't they? And in fine style, I might add. Maybe, just maybe, this will be the company to set the precedent. Why not think of things in THOSE terms?

Insecurity complex? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 18:55 · Score: 0

I've been in the beta playing Savage for the past few weeks now on my Gentoo Linux box.

People using distributions for normal reasons, '1337ness aside, would phrase that:

I've been in the beta playing Savage for the past few weeks now on my Linux box.

Get over yourself.

Re:Insecurity complex? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-27 01:49 · Score: 0

Couldn't agree more.

Just Remember The Neverwinter! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-26 19:01 · Score: 0

Just remember the lesson Bioware taught us: NEVER trust an announcement. Buy the game when it actually works under Linux. Game companies lie easily.

Re:Just Remember The Neverwinter! by SQLz · 2003-07-27 07:38 · Score: 1

It already runs under Linux. The beta testing is happening now. If you pre-order the game you automatically get to be a beta tester.

If you do pre-order, make sure to order from TuxGames so the sale counts as a linux sale.

Savage... Savage... by Lasuuco+Tulkas · 2003-07-26 19:18 · Score: 1

You mean Fred Savage?

PowerPC Linux and Games... by Svartalf · 2003-07-26 20:45 · Score: 1

Right, it is indeed x86-only according to a post on LinuxGames by one of the developers IIRC. Don't know if you could've played it with DRI drivers anyway. PPC Linux users really get to notice why non-free software is bad. They don't get the 3D, Realplayer, Flash plugin etc.

It may be x86 only, but it's probably more because the developer doesn't know about what all Linux and GCC can do for them. I'll bet they're compiling on a specific distribution and linking against specific libs from the same.

While that will actually work for most applications, it makes it difficult to make versions for an alternate architechture, say like the PowerPC, for example.

However, cross-compilation techniques allow for a consistent build environment across different distributions and allows for the ability to build binaries for platforms other than x86. I know, we have set up for the ability to build for PowerPC in the case of Majesty and Soulride over at Linux Game Publishing. Other games are planned on a, "Will it run properly on the platform?" basis- some of the 3D games currently in the process of being ported may not run right without the more advanced (T&L supporting) Radeons (and I don't HAVE one of those right now in my G4- and no budget to rectify that issue... (Hint, hint... :-) ).

Gotta love these guys even without the PPC port, the programmer responsible for the GNU/Linux port posting on the LG comment threads for Savage and very much feeling like he's "with us". And this one really seems like an original game.

No doubt. My productivity went down a little bit (er, a lot...) when I started testing. They've got a little game balance tuing left to do, but it's shaping up to be a great game. And, it IS nice to have one of the developers interacting with us on LG.

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas

on the same CD as the PC version by kasperd · 2003-07-26 20:53 · Score: 1

So what architectures will the Linux version run on, if it is not the PC?

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Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?

Almost pre-ordered it... by mcp33p4n75 · 2003-07-26 22:36 · Score: 1

I did a few minutes of research and this game looks pretty sweet. Only one thing is keeping from preordering it for $40 (great deal!). I have an old computer (Classic Athlon 700, but I have a Geforce 4 ti 4600). Anyone know what the minimum sys requirements are? Or how about you beta testers. Any idea if it'll run on my system?

Re:Almost pre-ordered it... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-27 01:07 · Score: 1, Informative

I've been running the beta on an Athlon 900, 512mb PC133 and Geforce 2 MX, running Debian, and I could play the game at decent fps. It crashed only during one patch too, which is impressive.

It will probably run for you with good fps, but in bigger games with maps covered by towers and people fighting everywhere, your CPU probably won't handle it.

You can also download a gameplay trailer if you want to take a closer look at it.
Re:Almost pre-ordered it... by Archon-X · 2003-07-27 01:17 · Score: 1

yeah im a beta tester, on a gforce4, 1200mhza, 500mb ram, runs very nicely in 800x600... and it'll only get better!
dont know if they still have the deal where if u preorder u get the beta access too..

but go for it!!

Whats a waste of time by McAddress · 2003-07-26 22:42 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Why did they bother to support windows?

They *are* small.... by Kjella · 2003-07-27 01:28 · Score: 1

Storage is cheap both CD and HDD, but games are hardly small these days.

Actually, I find games quite small nowadays. I still have "The 7th Guest" lying about, which was on 2CDs back when my HDD was 120mb and my CD reader a 1x! My HDD size has increased by three orders of magnitude (10^3), but the size of the biggest games have been at most tripled (Wing Commander IV, Baldurs Gate 2).

Through better compression of both video and sound, and rendering instead of movies, I feel we're getting more and more game/gb, not less. To be honest, I though we'd all be playing games off DVDs or better by now, and the fact that CDs are still sufficient is a tribute to the advancement of both software and processing power.

The five games you listed make up for about 8gb total, and I couldn't find a retail hard disk small enough not to fit them and at least double that. Unlike movies and music I don't see the point of having a huge collection on disk either, because normally you play only a few games at a time anyway.

Kjella

--
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings

Re:Honor the GPL by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-27 04:04 · Score: 0

What's your point? I don't get it.

its a good day for linux gamers by SQLz · 2003-07-27 06:06 · Score: 1

The more games that come out for linux, the more likely a gamer on the fence about installing Linux will install Linux. As the number of Linux gamers grow, so will the demand for native binaries, hence more native binaries will be developed.

ANY game for Linux is a win for desktop linux and a win for linux gamers.

Preorder for Linux by michaelsimms · 2003-07-28 01:20 · Score: 1

Order it from Tux Games to ensure your purchase is registered as a Linux sale, and help the Linux gaming industry grow!

Yes you can order it from elsewhere, it may even be a little cheaper from some places, but your sale will get chalked up as a Windows sale, the more known Linux sales there are, the more this will help efforts to get future games ported to Linux.

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Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.

Score! by Zazi · 2003-07-29 12:18 · Score: 0

Choke another one up for the Penguin bandwagon!

259 comments