OpenLindows.com: Wherefore Art Thou?

Joe Barr writes "I ran across a curious website recently: OpenLindows.com. The name alone intrigued me. It gave rise to speculation about a weird mix of free-as-in-beer and free-as-in-speech alternative to the $99/year Click-N-Run software subscription offered by LindowsOS, the most Windows-like/proprietary Linux distribution out there. This is a report on what I found, and perhaps even more importantly, what I didn't."

Comments

OpenLindows.com?

[dzym]

Surely the best thing to do with that domain is to redirect it to www.debian.org? Or maybe knoppix.org at a pinch.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is informative? This should be -1, Troll.

Just because these guys choose not to run your idea of an uber-distribution does not mean that it's no good. These openlindows.com people should be commended for trying to bring the best of the linux community to the lindows buyers. Comments like: "UR dist SUXOR, debian RULEZ!!1!!|" are the worst thing about the linux community, and these kinds of comments should be viewed as what they are.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

n00b, lindows is based on debian.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh. See what I mean?

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[HiThere]

Actually, he has it almost right.

There's nothing stoping you from running apt-get on Lindows, except lack of knowledge. What you end up with is Lindows with some Debian packages installed. Not Debian.

Personally, I don't think that any distro that encourages people to run as root deserves to live, but that's the main fault of Lindows. And that was a conscious choice. They did include apt-get, so there's no problem with upgrading from Debian. So you can't either fault Lindows for crippling their distro, or fault /.ers for suggesting that they redirect their /etc/apt/sources.list to Debian. It's a reasonable approach.

FWIW: I currently use LibraNet Linux. Another distribution that's essentially Linux. And I have more Debian links in my apt sources than I do LibraNet. In fact, it installed itself that way. But I have the LibraNet sources listed first, which means that if there's a version on the LibraNet site, that's the one that gets picked.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[The Almighty Dave]

Another distribution that's essentially Linux.

It's funny how many Linux distributions are essentially Linux.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[HiThere]

Mea culpa. I should really copy-edit more carefully.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[netean]

personally I'd NEVER ever consider NOT running as root. Why on earth should I be hassled for a password everytime I want to do something remotely useful.

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck

Re:OpenLindows.com?

[oshy]

the knoppix.org site is down at the moment due to a protest at software patents.

makes a change from being down due to /.ing

sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?"

Basic literacy, you know?

Re:sheesh

[bobdinkel]

damn. beat me to it.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't he just asking, "Why art thou", as in why does it exist, why does it have that name?

Re:sheesh

[mcse_knowthyenemy]

Cat beat me to it.

One wonders why the /. "pre-post inspectors" did not catch this...

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone mod this guy up. Someone has to save the fucking language from morons.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why art though" is exactly what the article title is supposed to mean. We already know WHERE it is - it's at www.openlindows.com. Yeesh.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Seconded. Too many stupid moderations happen these days. This should at least be a +2 Insightful.

Moderators were modding people 'offtopic' for having opposing points of view in some of the space-related threads..

Re:sheesh

[The Unabageler]

maybe it's meant as in

"Why did you have to be born the community of an non-communal linux distro?"

BTFOOM

Re:sheesh

[The Unabageler]

or maybe, "why are you existing when you have no users?"

Re:sheesh

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Basic literacy, you know?"

Yeah because wherefore is in such common use in modern dialect. It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days. Ignorant fools, they should get off their embiggened asses and study an extinct style of communication.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

hahahahahah

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?"

Well the article's been slashdotted, so all I have to go by is the submission itself. Given the author's comment about the site being OpenLindows, yet the OS is proprietary, I'd say his use of wherefore is bang on.

Couldn't take a moment to make sure your assumption wasn't ill based?

Re:sheesh

[kst]

It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days.

Yes, 'where' means 'where', and 'why' means 'why'.

'Wherefore' is a different word. You can tell by the extra 4 letters at the end.

No, it's not commonly used these days; probably the vast majority of uses are quoting that line from "Romeo and Juliet". ("art" and "thou" aren't very common either, but people don't seem to have much trouble with them.)

If you're interested (or even if you're not), the word "wherefore" is closely related to "therefore", which is still in common use.

I'm not going to argue that anyone who doesn't know what "wherefore" means is illiterate, but don't you think knowing what is means is better than not knowing what it means?

Re:sheesh

[jdray]

"...should get off their embiggened asses..."

In this context, shouldn't it be "arses?"

Re:sheesh

[finkployd]

Actually it is used correctly in this case. We know where openlindows.com is (hint, the name is also a location. Or uniform resource locator as we say in the biz), the author is lamenting its ties to a proprietary software company. As in "the name openlindows.com has such potential, why were you born into the family of my enemy".

So one point for you for knowing the correct usage of wherefore, minus one point for not noticing that it was actually used correctly here.

You currently have zero points. Would you like to play again (y/n) ?

Finkployd

Re:sheesh

[Doomdark]

Perhaps, but one should not use words one does not understand. So, if you want to mean "where", use word "where", not "wherefore". Especially when latter means something else than what you naively assumed.

Re:sheesh

[Quickening]

funny sig! was that a reference to Demolition Man?

Re:sheesh

[Red Warrior]

"art" and "thou" aren't very common either, but people don't seem to have much trouble with them.)

Art? That's pictures of naked chicks. No?

Re:sheesh

[fireman sam]

That word you use... you use it a lot... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"I'm not going to argue that anyone who doesn't know what "wherefore" means is illiterate, but don't you think knowing what is means is better than not knowing what it means? "

Not when people use it as a way of measuring one's intelligence. I think that's what caused AnonV to go off here. Never mind how understandable the mistake is, anybody who says wherefore doesn't mean why is an idiot. I, for one, will be quite happy when that aspect of our personalities goes extinct.

Re:sheesh

[Anonvmous Coward]

"funny sig! was that a reference to Demolition Man?"

Yep! Though I still haven't found a way to work Stallone's swearing to get some make-shift toilet paper into it.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for the fact that many of the people who use the word learned it from reading R&J in high school or whenever, and if you insert "where" in place of "wherefore" Juliette's whole little lament really doesn't make any sense...

Although ideally whoever was teching the class on it would have mentioned it, since it is a common mistake the first time you see it.

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"It cracks me up that the parent was modded as 'Offtopic' where the same comments below (in multiple posts) are +4 informative & insigtful. "

Why? Parent poster was trolling about a whoop-de-doo aspect of the post. The people who replied gave other people info to learn from.

What's so funny about it working exactly the way it should?

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"wherefore" is a cromulent word.

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"Yeah because wherefore is in such common use in modern dialect. It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days. Ignorant fools, they should get off their embiggened asses and study an extinct style of communication. "

Gotta love the way he worked 'embiggened' into that post.

Re:sheesh

[rleibman]

A big question of course, is why Shakespeare didn't instead say "Romeo, oh romeo, wherefore are though Montague?". Much clearer. I highly recommend this season's version of R&J at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival.

Re:sheesh

[uncoveror]

Familiarity with archaic forms of English that no one uses any more is only basic literacy to you? The vast majority of English speakers are illiterate by that standard. Are you a college professor?

Re:sheesh

[justinburt]

Wow, that is much better. Fits with the meter and everything. Because when you think about it, why would it be a problem that he is "Romeo"? That has nothing to do with his family identity.

But what shall have to wait for another time is: what is the textual evidence for this? If it ain't Shakespeare, it ain't Shakespeare.

Yes, I do realize this will be modded Offtopic.

Justin

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what shit-kicking town you were raised in, but in my public school, Romeo and Juliet was required reading. It's not like Shakespear is the most quoted author or anything.

Re:sheesh

[rleibman]

Unfortunately I can't take take credit for it. Barry Kraft (OSF's dramaturg and a leading bard scholar) mentioned it on passing at a lecture I attended. R&J is not originally Shakespeare's, the story goes much further and even some of the text, so it is conceivable that one of those sources had something that made more sense.

Re:sheesh

[17028]

Wherefore is used in the nordic languages still. It's not spelled the same way, but it's the same origin.

Re:sheesh

[Voytek]

Yes, the vast majority of English speakers are illiterate. Is this news to you?

Re:sheesh

[uncoveror]

Yes, I read his works like anyone who went to school, and saw a few of them performed, but most people are unaware that wherefore means why. It is an archaic term that is not commonly used. By the way, before getting up on the cultural high horse, how about a spell check? It's Shakespeare, not Shakespear. Who is the shit-kicker now?

Re:sheesh

[mkldev]

Actually, it still makes a lot of sense. She's looking out of her balcony. It would make just as much sense for her to gaze out into the darkness and ask where Romeo is as it would to ask why his name is Romeo. I rather suspect Shakespeare chose that word maliciously as an "almost double-entendre" of sorts, i.e. as a sort of word play to surprise the audience. Anyway....

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

It would make just as much sense for her to gaze out into the darkness and ask where Romeo is as it would to ask why his name is Romeo.

That's what you get from reading the Cliff's Notes instead of the actual play.

O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Capulet.
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

See? She's talking about how lousy it is that the kid she's hot for happens to be a member of a family her family is sworn to hate. Replace the "wherefore" with "where" and the whole thing falls apart.

We're back to basic literacy here. Not in the sense of being able to read, but rather in the sense of having read.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I read his works like anyone who went to school, and saw a few of them performed, but most people are unaware that wherefore means why.

Sorry, but sounding out the words without understanding what they actually mean doesn't pass as reading in my book. If you don't know what "wherefore" means, then you literally have not read Romeo and Juliet, irrespective of whether your eyes have scanned the passages at some point in your education.

By the way, before getting up on the cultural high horse, how about a spell check? It's Shakespeare, not Shakespear. Who is the shit-kicker now?

I dare say you are. There's a huge difference between a typographical error and an admission that you are unfamiliar with the seminal works of our language.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Well the article's been slashdotted, so all I have to go by is the submission itself. [...] Couldn't take a moment to make sure your assumption wasn't ill based?

Having read the actual article, I can say with confidence that my criticism was soundly placed. Either the submitter didn't know what "wherefore" meant (almost certainly true, if I had to make a guess) or he fundamentally misunderstood the article on which he was commenting.

Re:sheesh

[kst]

Not when people use it as a way of measuring one's intelligence.

So because some people are overly critical, it's not better to know what the word means than not to know what it means?

I don't believe you meant that.

Re:sheesh

[Audity]

Inconceivable!

Re:sheesh

[NanoGator]

"So because some people are overly critical, it's not better to know what the word means than not to know what it means?"

What's the point of knowing what it means when the only use of it is to not get picked on by trivia obsessed zealots?

Re:sheesh

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Yeah because wherefore is in such common use in modern dialect. It's a pity that people think the word 'where' means 'where' instead of 'why' these days. Ignorant fools, they should get off their embiggened asses and study an extinct style of communication."

I resent being modded as flamebait for this comment. There's an important point to my little satire here. People who insult others for not being in touch with an extinct phrase in the english dialect sound like arrogant assholes.

Re:sheesh

[Bush Pig]

Although I agree with your criticism of the imeddiate parent, I think 'Shakespear' is also correct (along with about 1/2 dozen other variants - Sheikhspeer didn't spell all that well, despite writing like an angel).

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

I all of your glorious years of studying Shakespeare, did it not occur to you that, being one to often make a play on words, he more than likely intended the slight confusion? Read a little deeper into the meaning of the line and maybe you'll detect a correlation with the ambiguity of the line being spoken. In its context, the terminology he chose perfectly suits the situation.

You could say that the ambiguity also suits the article.

Then I could say "Wherefore art thou fudie" for being such a lame grammar nazi to think you could hope to pick apart Shakespeare.

Duh.

With such a superficial, analytical perspective of a single line, I wonder if perhaps Shakespeare is lost on you entirely.

Re:sheesh

[kingLatency]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?" Basic literacy, you know? Arrogancy does not have to come along with literacy...

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that we're having this discussion, by definition, means that this isn't an extinct phrase. It's just one you're insufficiently well-read to be comfortable with.

I'd rather be an arrogant asshole than an illiterate mouth-breather. Any day of the week, man.

Re:sheesh

[mindriot]

Yes, and? The question is, "wherefore art thou?" -- in other words, "why are you?" -- which fits pretty well. Why does the site exist, practically? Wasn't that the point?

Btw, wherefore is probably related to the German "wofur" meaning "what for," as in "what's that for?" -- similar enough to "why does that exist?".

Hm. Why does /. replace the u-Umlaut in "wofur" with a regular 'u'? ..."wofuer," then. :)

Re:sheesh

[JosefK]

Who is the shit-kicker now?

That would be old Bill himse'f: http://shakespeareauthorship.com/name1.html

Re:sheesh

[McAddress]

wtf are we here, a bunch of english majors here? This is /. damnit.

Re:sheesh

[geoswan]

It's not like Shakespear is the most quoted author or anything.

Yeah, but did you ever try reading any of his stuff?

Shit he must have been the world's laziest writer. His stuff is just crammed full of over-used cliches.

LOL. Just kidding

Re:sheesh

[cha0sadddddddd]

I didn't know.
now I do.
now I won't get picked on by trivia obsessed zealots.(for that)
but it is something I'd not have learned if not for trivia obsessed zealots on /. =)

knowing the difference between affect and effect is important.
knowing the difference between there and thier is important.
whowing what an important word in an important scene in an important play is ...you guessed it important.
dont shoot the messenger, just cause it makes him mad to see someone using a word incorrectly,
he then posts about it and others learn something =)

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the quote -- a fresh breeze in the midden of Slashdot.

Re:sheesh

[MrBlint]

and minus another point for being such a pedantic arse

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

shakespeare is a fraud

Re:sheesh

[dasmegabyte]

There are two things that bother me about people's misconceptions of Romeo and Juliet. The first is the line "Wherefore art thou, Romeo," and I can deal with it, because it's still better than people who don't understand the concept of contractions of homonyms.

The second is that people still think it's a heartwarming love story. It's not. It's a tragedy about the destruction of two feuding houses -- two families, too old to produce any more children, who lose all their kin as a result of this pairing. Whether lovesick Romeo (who immediately forgets the girl he had previously pined for when he meets a new chick who is WAY too young for him) and dutiful Juliet are truly in love is up to the interpretter, though I'd have to say in true deconstructionist spirit that there's no way. But if it were really about their "love," the story would have ended with their deaths. It continues...not merely as denoument, but to deliver the message: foolish feuding only leads to tragedy.

It's an anti-mob play, same as Julius Caeser. There's nothing romantic in the second act at all, just a lot of foolish teenage sentiment and real adult grief. Therefore, a phrase like "we're starcrossed lovers, like Romeo and Juliet," has always seemed insultingly ironic to me. Except when Milhouse said it.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?" Basic literacy, you know?

Actually, Shakespeare didn't even spell his name consistently. He composed a lot of brilliant verbal wordplay, but they were *verbal*, not written.

The standards of written language were a little more flexible in his time.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

It is an archaic term that is not commonly used.

Is there some other kind?

Re:sheesh

[Paradise Pete]

Shit he must have been the world's laziest writer. His stuff is just crammed full of over-used cliches.

That's pretty funny. I'm going to have to steal that sometime.

Re:sheesh

[Anonymous Coward]

Arrogancy does not have to come along with literacy...

That's arrogance, you lesser creature you.

awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

i ran across a couple random sites as well... why didn't my submission get posted on those?

Re:awesome

[johndoesovich]

Found another that appears to be similar to openlindows..... http://www.lycoris.com/

Re:awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right man, this is really boring.

My experience with OpenLindows

[Anonymous Coward]

I was initially skeptical in testing lindows, but as i did it, i was surprised at what i saw.

First of all, its not really a "hack" of windows and linux, it has got its own pecularities and nuances. None of them infringe on SCO's IP rights, so you can be sure of not being hassled by them.

This apart, the greatest advantage with this system is its lack of gayness and the fact that it combines the user-friendlyness of windows and the technical gayness of linux.

I really recommend this system to anyone who is planning on getting some serious work done. It apparently doesn't appear so but I think this is the OS of the future.

Re:My experience with OpenLindows

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, have a beautiful mind.

Re:My experience with OpenLindows

[RagManX]

None of them infringe on SCO's IP rights, so you can be sure of not being hassled by them.

It doesn't use the standard Linux kernel? Cool.

BTW, bad troll!

RagManX

why is there a need for this?

[sujan]

dpkg + synaptic achieves pretty much what lindows is trying to market with click n' run. Save the outrageous charge to install free software, of course.

Re:why is there a need for this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Still too nerdy for the target audience. You think grandma will figure out which one of these she wants to install?

gnome-common
gnome-core
gnome-cups-manager
gn ome-db
gnome-db-doc
gnome-dektop-dat
gnome-dev- doc

Maybe have her check her dependencies and config files too?

Get real. "Normal people" (not nerds who hang out on /.) don't have the slightest clue how to do this stuff. They are willing to pay for convenience and a bit of hand-holding.

Re:why is there a need for this?

[sujan]

then Grandma should stick to win XP/OS X.

Re:why is there a need for this?

[cha0sadddddddd]

I think more people than you think would pick "core" and end up with a usable gnome.
DISCLAIMER***HAVE NOT TRIED THIS HAVE NO IDEA***
probably even do a apt-get install gnome-core gnome-common
worst case list em all.
thank god for tab filename completion
I taught the 78 year old dude next door how to run debian.
he can edit his sources.list
he can type apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade.
he can make cron do that for him.
most grangmas cant figure out how to get vcr to stop blinking 12:00(mine cant)
but anyone with any intrest in computing rapidly learns linux if they know where and how to look
(having someone who knows more than you start ya off doesnt hurt though)

My head hurts...

[JoeLinux]

Let's pull this apart, shall we?

This is:

A free software, providing an alternative for people who don't want to pay for an alternate Operating system utilizing free software meant to emulate a common interface on proprietary software.

Tell me, if you are tech-savvy enough to get this to work (Even as beta as it probably is), what are you doing wanting the lindows interface?

My $.02 ($.03 Canadian)

Re:My head hurts...

[derrith]

now that would: "my $.02 ($5.00 Canadian)"
but enough about me, about my career....

Re:My head hurts...

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously didn't read the site. He is not trying to provide a free alternative to LindowsOS. He is not trying to circumvent Click-n-Run. All that exists on the OpenLindows.com site are pre-compiled binaries (in .deb format) that work under LindowsOS. So, if you run LindowsOS and there is a program that you want that is not in the Click-n-Run warehouse you might find it on OpenLindows.com instead. There is also some custom-written software on the site that works specifically under LindowsOS.

Jesus! You're all a bunch of morons. Read the fucking article and site first.

Wherefore != Where

[RimmerExperience]

The article points to the lack of an Open Lindows community (e.g. 'where is it'?). 'Wherefore' in Olde English...e, however, means 'why' or 'for what reason'.

Wherefore [realdictionary.com]

(Juliet laments "why are you Romeo", not "where are you Romeo?")

Re:Wherefore != Where

[BoojiBoy0]

But as others have suggested, Why does this service exist?? (who would use it?)

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn grammar Elizabethans.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[LostCluster]

The thing is, lauguage evolves by errors that survive without being corrected. That is to say, if a misuse of the word gets used too much, dictionairies report that meaning has now been associated with the word, and adds it to the definition.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

You would deserve a lolly, except for missing that this is just what the headline is supposed to mean. The article notes that openlindows.com is a "weird mix" - hence the question is "Why is there an openlindows.com? What is it's secret? Who does it serve?". In fact in using the term some editor was trying to be even more clever than you, but we all know that's impossible. If only because you've read Shakespeare *and* a dictionary.

But don't worry, you'll still get to +5. :)

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

And for those who are nitpicking, that's not Old English. Old English is like untranslated Beowulf (no, not the cluster...) Looks more like German than modern English...

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

That is to say, if a misuse of the word gets used too much...


Totally. I must have heard "wherefore" used to mean where at least a dozen times .... OK, maybe 10 times .... A few times .... Surely at least once .... Ummmm.... OK. Never.

Sometimes a mistake is really a misteak.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

And for the grammar Nazis still reading this thread, yes, that should be "its" and "whom". You try typing into a lynx text entry field sometime.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Atzanteol]

Yeah, I mean what the flang was the gribbit talking about? Werds and their spellings/meanings can be changed anytime I tang well want to!

Re:Wherefore != Where

[rsidd]

To all those who argue for dictionaries incorporating wrong meanings because people use them thus, let me point out this very eloquent article.

For the language-impaired, "wherefore" has the same relationship to "therefore" as "where" has to "there". Let's keep things somewhat orderly here -- unless you argue that Juliet, spying Romeo, would say "Ah, therefore's Romeo!"

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Kjella]

Umm I didn't think much of the headline. In modern English I'd probably say it means something like "OpenLindows.com: Why do you exist?" or "To what purpose are you?", which would be in line with the standard definition. Slightly more implicitly "Why do you exist if there's no community?"

Kjella

Re:Wherefore != Where

[bperkins]

Excellent point, however your explanation of a misconception has a possible misconception.

You say "Olde English," which if one takes to mean "Old English," would refer to the English spoken by the people in Britain before 1066.

Although the word wherefore may have had Old English origins (the OED indicates that it does not), Romeo and Juliet is Elizabethan English.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonym1ty]

Romeo and Juliet is Elizabethan English.

And we all love our Elizabethan English. I love that Priate Sound.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly, in German there are the words "wofuer" and "dafuer" where "wo" directly translates to "where", "da" directly translates to "there" and "fuer" directly translates to "for(e)".

However, while "wofuer" and "wherefore" probably have the same meaning (basically, "why?") "therefore" does not translate to "dafuer". Instead, it translates to "darum" which has a different meaning ("dafuer" means "for this purpose".)

This still is a good example of the similarities between, or better the common roots of both languages.

Note: Lameness filter killed the üs... Substitute Umlaut-u for "ue".

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I found that piece elitist and pretentious, despite agreeing with the author regarding each example of misuse. The piece comes across as typical "good old days" reminiscence, but those good old days never existed. Beyond that it's myopic regarding the history of English - why should the specific pattern of usage that was prevalent in the author's salad days be held holy? Perhaps he should be strung up by his Middle English forebears for composing a page of gobbledygook.

Language changes - dictionaries have always been a compromise. If they weren't descriptive they'd be empty; if they weren't prescriptive there'd be no reason for them to exist at all. If you can't handle it, there are several hundred other extant languages for you to learn and enjoy.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[RatBastard]

Yes, language does evolve. But pig-ignorance is not evolution.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[speck]

David Foster Wallace wrote an excellent article for Harper's a while back which described the prescriptivist / descriptivist split in more detail.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[rsidd]

Language changes - dictionaries have always been a compromise. If they weren't descriptive they'd be empty; if they weren't prescriptive there'd be no reason for them to exist at all.

They should be descriptive of conventional usage. That means not just spoken conversation and internet blogs, but books. If you misunderstand "wherefore" you misunderstand Shakespeare. Already most people can't read Shakespeare without an annotation, and I'd hate it if that fate also befell Dickens, Sherlock Holmes, etc (maybe it has already). There is a point in preserving our understanding of past literature.

Indeed, such misreadings can be dangerous: in the "biblical" passage "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" the word "witch" is really a mistranslation from the Hebrew of "poisoner", and look what that did to countless helpless old women in the middle ages.

If you can't handle it, there are several hundred other extant languages for you to learn and enjoy.

Actually, I suspect that as time goes by the English language, as spoken and butchered by different people over the world, will become more and more incomprehensible: I already can't understand a lot of colloquial American. When no two English speakers can understand each other, perhaps French or German will have another chance to rule the world :)

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Ch_Omega]

On a sidenote:

In Norwegian, we still use a variant of wherefore, namely "hvorfor"... "Hvor" = where, "hvorfor" = why. We also use "Derfor" = Therefore, "der" = there, etc. :)

... Modern english has borrowed more than a few words from old norse, which can be seen in the simmilarity of alot of modern Norwegian and English words, like f.eks. Norwegian word "Sky" = cloud, Norwegian word "leg", = The part of the leg that is below the knee, Norwegian word "kne" = "Knee", etc.. :)

Probably has something to do with the british islands crawling with vikings prior to 1066 or something..

Okay, I should probably go to bed now.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[chadamir]

elizabethan english is modern english, not old english. If you are going to be snappy, why don't you get your facts straight, guy?

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Bush Pig]

Thanks for the pointer to that article. I used to have that argument with my ex-wife and my sons - they're all cultural relativists and post-modernists. I got sick of arguing that words mean what they mean (although I accept that meaning can drift over a long time), and that just because people used them incorrectly, it didn't mean that the words had changed meaning - it just meant that those people were wrong.

I actually got given a slang dictionary a couple of years ago - the two nice things about it are that it _only_ has slang in it, and it has old slang (like 16th C) as well as new slang.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Anonymous Coward]

+1, informativ.

Re:Wherefore != Where

[Bob Uhl]

German does the same thing, with is wo- (where) and da- (there) compounds. I try to use the English where- and there- compounds as much as possible, because they are both cool and useful. I like to write therefor and wherefor instead of therefore and wherefore, though:-)

Article summary

[Fizzlewhiff]

Just so you don't have to read the whole article like I did...

There is a site called OpenLindows.org (or something like that) where Lindows users could download the same stuff Linux and BSD users can downlod. Only noone seems to know about it, or Lindows users don't care, or there aren't any Lindows users. Sorry to be so vague but I quit reading before any real conslusion was drawn because it didn't mention SCO or Kobe Bryant and I became bored.

Re:Article summary

[jared_hanson]

You're summary hit the nail on the head, and you didn't even read the entire thing!

I expect more stories like this in the future:

Joe Smith sets up a website. No one knows about it, but I happened to stumble across. I take that back, it looks like his grandma posted something here a couple of months back. He links to some weird site.

Man, how did this make Slashdot.

Re:Article summary

[heff]

thank you..finally someone who makes sense.

Re:Article summary

[fr0dicus]

Also nothing about Natalie Portman or any sign of hot grits.

:-(

Re:Article summary

[Nodatadj]

> Man, how did this make Slashdot.

Its being run by Newsforge.
Looks like OSDN needs more cross website promotions to get their ad hit rate up.
Just like that influx of articles that were subtle adverts for thinkgeek crap a few weeks ago

Re:Article summary

[jared_hanson]

One has got to wonder what price a Newsforge ad commands. I don't routinely visit, but if this counts as news, I don't plan on stopping by very often.

Re:Article summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, how did this make Slashdot

Here is a more interesting story...

The Seattle Times has conducted an interesting interview with Rick Devenuti, Microsoft Vice President and CIO, in which he comments on the company's internal testing procedure called dogfooding and explains why he has a PC running RedHat Linux in his office. Devenuti's comments about ATMs needing "five nines" uptime is especially ironic given this incident. Picture here

Re:Article summary

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish someone would explain this joke, for the uninitiated.

Re:Article summary

[Anonymous Coward]

You're summary

Goddammit, I'm sick of seeing people use "your" when they meant "you're" and vice versa! Hate to be a grammar nazi, but that's just plain ignorant.

Re:Article summary

[Anonymous Coward]

your is shorthand for you're. reader gets the meaning from the context. get over it.

Re:Article summary

[happystink]

Come on, it's not like we could have found this information any other way, it's not like we have access to the internet or anything.

Next on slashdot: There's a website named Yahoo.com, I'll explain what's on the front page.

Re:Article summary

[armyofone]

Dear Mr. Coward,
Please feel free to return to slashdot after you have learned to use Google

Re:Article summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot has a long running gag with Natalie Portman jokes. There was one guy who always talked about pouring hot grits down his pants. There were funny sig files like "The Penis Bird" and gross sites like "goatse.cx" (you don't want to know...believe me!). There are also Cowboy Neal jokes and the infamous bad spelling of CmdrTaco (leader of Slashdot). There are a lot of inside jokes around here. You should do some searching on Google. You'll probably find lots.

Re:Article summary

[Anonymous Coward]

"No Grammar for You!"

-- the Grammar Nazi

Re:Article summary

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ok, he meant to write "Whey'refore."

(Ducks)

Re:Article summary

[hesiod]

> your is shorthand for you're. reader gets the meaning from the context. get over it.

Umm, no it isn't. "Real Shorthand" has set rules, and that's not one of them. However, I agree that the context is more important than spelling accuracy.

My impression

[insecuritiez]

Was that OpenLindows was a small group (one guy?), maybe one person that didn't like the idea of having to pay for click-n-run to get many free applications. Open Lindows isn't going to take off because there's allready a website for that. www.debian.org And the few Lindows users out there that want to stick with it most likely can compile the software and so don't need OpenLindows. Nice idea though.

For us Non-Lindows people

[Dareth]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

Is there some kind of design limitation in Lindows, obscure config file layout to keep these people clickin and paying?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you can plaw right ahead. That's what a lot of the thrashing in the forums is about -- windows people trying to understand how to do exactly what you just described.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Craig Nagy]

RTFC C=Comments

We don't try to hide the fact that sites like this is exist in order to gain more revenue from CNR. If we wanted to do that, we'd simply make it impossible to use APT, and we don't - Apt is fully functional in LindowsOS and for those more technically inclined, they are more than welcome to use it instead of CNR if it meets their needs.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[LostCluster]

Smart biz move, because here were their options:

A: Sack APT, and get a backlash from opensource land.

B: Allow APT to exist, but don't give it any easier interface than what it comes with standard. Those geeky enough to understand it may have it, but those same people are likely too geeky to want to buy Lindows anyway.

Lindows' product is a closed source program that makes Linux a bit easier to use, frosted with a distribution of the open source programs it attempts to help you with. If you know enough to work around Lindows anyway... then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[AVryhof]

On the Lindows CD I have you don't even need to edit your apt sources file, just go ahead and apt-get install all you want....just don't mess with their mighty X Display Manager or you won't be able to login to your system anymore.

I replaced all the links to Click-n-Run with Links to Synaptic, and installed Mozilla Firebird.... looks nice, works nice, but it's still no where as nice as my standard Debian install.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Darth]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

lack of technical knowledge and desire to do so.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Gherald]

> If you know enough to work around Lindows anyway... then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

Complaining about its geeklessness, what else?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[elgaard]

Normal Lindows users don't apt-get. CNR is simper to use than synaptic, kpackage, dselect, apt-get etc.

Technically the answer is versions and dependencies. I experienced Lindows 3 preinstalled on the laptop (http://www.agol.dk/elgaard/lindows.html). The Lindows specific programs were all cleanly installed as Debian packages, which make upgrading with apt safe and simpler. However the installed packages were an interesting mix of Debian/KDE/OO versions. Many programs were backported. I was not able to come up with a sources.list that matched what was installed and what I wanted to install. This means you get a lot of conflicts. You can resolve those, but then you end up updating _a lot_ of packages, and loosing most of the extra Lindows packages. It still works, but there really isn't much point in doing it compared to installing a fresh Debian, unless you have a preinstalled Lindows computer without floppy or CD drive.

OpenLindows packages on the other hand matches the installed Lindows packages. I started trying out OpenLindows. I downloaded OO from Openlindows, put it on a CF card, met my girlfriend with the Lindows laptop on the way to a meeting, put the CF card in the laptop (it has a CF slot), apt-get install openoffice, and it was working.

The laptop now runs debian unstable (except for Netscape), but that is just because I could do it. I liked a lot of things in Lindows (not the root thing) and $49/year (per family i think) could be worth it as long as you are not locked in---You have a way out (apt-get) if you decide it is no longer worth it.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Andrewkov]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

You have to log on as root to do that .. oh, wait a sec..

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Anonymous Coward]

I use gdm and I have no problems. Of course you do need to create a user account first, because the default is not to allow root login.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why'd you install it, butt breath?

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Anonymous Coward]

lol i agre thjat he is not so very smart bc he installs big sotwafwares butt he really doesnt liek them!!!!!!!!1 LOL!!!! waht a waist of time

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Anonymous Coward]

As Brian (the Community Liaison) pointed out in the post above -- Lindows.com doesn't disable apt-get in any way. If you are smart enough to apt-get all your stuff -- have fun! But, the average person looking to use LindowsOS doesn't even want to see a commandline. A graphical, one-click installer is worth paying for to them. But, you can do anything with a Lindows box that you can with Debian.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[stm2]

What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?

Configuring, finding out how things works, compiling , and so on takes time.
My time worth more than $49. I do prefer to pay, CNR and keep on working.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[eoin1]

"What keeps a normal Lindows user from editing their /etc/apt/sources.list and apt-get installing away?" A normal Lindows user probably wouldn't know that that file even exists, wouldn't know how to edit it, and definitely wouldn't know how to use apt-get, as Lindows is targeted at unskilled Linux newbies.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[Vaughn Anderson]

then what are you doing with Lindows in the first place?

I haven't considered it seriously until recently where I want to run a windows application on linux, but I don't have time to learn WINE and Linux... Perhaps that is a good reason.

Re:For us Non-Lindows people

[ninewands]

Quoth the poster:

B: Allow APT to exist, but don't give it any easier interface than what it comes with standard. Those geeky enough to understand it may have it, ...

Understanding "apt-get install <pkg_name> and editing /etc/apt/sources.list makes one an "Alpha Geek?" I don't fscking THINK so ... especially since there are explicit instructions what to put in /etc/apt/sources.list on the Debian website.

Now resolving dependency conflicts with RPM's ... THAT's geeky!

Community

[vosbert]

Interesting how the author mentions community. Does a great software program really need a community? Can't there just be a great product without community? I assume good software will automatically attract a community, but perhaps this is not the case anymore. Maybe it is just as important to produce a great product as it is to promote it.

Re:Community

[AVryhof]

SCO UnixWare is a good product. I have used it, and it has everything you would expect from Unix... The Company (SCO/Caldera) justr keeps beating on their community....so SCO will kill off the community for their product because of their vendetta against Linux, and end up with a great product without a community.

Re:Community

[Anonymous Coward]

SCO UnixWare is a good product.

So only you and Darl think that obviously. Anyone who's anyone that has had to use UnixWare usually wanted to commit suicide soon there after.

This is different from sourceforge?

[stratjakt]

Set up webpage

Wait for developers to create product for you

Re:This is different from sourceforge?

[Anonymous Coward]

Profit!

this is what the lindows.com community liason said

[atari2600]

From the article


The skinny
by LindowsBrian on 2003.08.27 15:07 (#67071)
User #183638 Info

I just contacted Joe about an hour ago and explained to him our take on this article and with Linux news in general. He was nice enough to send a very prompt reply requesting that I post here, so here goes nothing.

First of all, this article isn't FUD, as a couple of our "hardcores" seem to be claiming. I apologize for that, but I love their spunk. ;-)

I'm actually very glad to have seen this article written as Peter, the owner of LindowsDownload.com and OpenLindows.com has been very, very helpful to us in the past and has created a great site that deserves recognition.

To keep this fairly short and as interesting as possible, I'll just sum up some things real quick instead of waxing philisophical.

First off, a minor correction to the article.

1.) Lindows Plus (CNR Memberhsip) is $49.95, not $99, although it once was. Then it included commercial software as well. LindowsOS and Lindows Plus together are only $89 now.

And to respond to a few comments here:

We don't charge for the free software - We charge for the delivery service. For any Linux company to have a shot at making money, you almost have to go the services route. We also offer deep discounts on Commercial software that you can't legally obtain for free-as-in-beer.

We Do give back to the community. Our largest contribution came in the way of Wine. We contributed code as well as nearly half a million dollars. For more info:

http://www.lindows.com/contributions

Getting back to the article, we are not in any way affiliated with LindowsDownload.com, LindowsUser.com, LindowsClub.com, or OpenLindows.com, but I do have what I consider to be a good relationship with the owner.

We don't try to hide the fact that sites like this is exist in order to gain more revenue from CNR. If we wanted to do that, we'd simply make it impossible to use APT, and we don't - Apt is fully functional in LindowsOS and for those more technically inclined, they are more than welcome to use it instead of CNR if it meets their needs.

Most users of other Linux Distros have different needs and different mindsets than our users. Our users want to be able to install software at an affordable price with one-click of the mouse. They don't care if it's GPLed Software, BSD-Style software, commercial software... They simply don't care. So yes, we do market differently than most Linux companies because we are different than most Linux companies - We're going after the desktop space the MS currently owns.

I'm sure we've done some things along the way that aren't in line with most Linux companies and have upset alot of you, but I assure you we do care about the community, we give back to the community, and are currently working with some members of the Debian Community personally.

Brian Thomason
Lindows.com Community Liaison

P.S. Feel free to email be at brian.thomason@lindows.com or shoot me an IM on AIM at LindowsBrian

I hate to point out the obvious..

[Anonymous Coward]

But I think the poor chap who wrote this article found openlindows just a little too early.. Its nice of him to publicise them though, its a bit of a baptism of fire unleashing slashdot upon them so early :)

The name suggests a free version of lindows - functioning similarly. Cute but I feel sorry for the Lindows guys myself - mainly because I think they have the right idea charging for linux (to the masses, not those of us who know this type of thing) - if you know anything about marketing you will know that selling a product for free or dirt cheap price does not really equate to "trust" (and more sales) from the customers. Linux undoubtedly is currently "too good to be true" to many people who might consider the change from MS products.

Re:I hate to point out the obvious..

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. He's not making a "free version of Lindows". He has .deb binaries on his site that work under LindowsOS. You still need to be running LindowsOS for it to work.

Re:lindows... I still don't get it

[ccwaterz]

I'm reminded of a Fox Trot comic from a few weeks back.

free and alternative

[zerolives]

Hey! I have a free, alternative, open-source way to simulate all of the stuff in that article: smash you head in with a hammer, and then pour lemon juice on it.

Re:free and alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Funniest thing I've read all day man. You'd better get up to 5.

Re:free and alternative

[Hatta]

Now is that free as in speech, or free as in pepper spray?

Questions about OpenLindows

[kjj]

This OpenLindows sounds interesting and I would love to give it a try. I went to the site and they have some software for OpenLindows but I wasn't able to find any links or info on how to download and install OpenLindows. Does anyone else have some information on this?

Re:Questions about OpenLindows

[LostCluster]

It's vaporware. RTFA.

Re:Questions about OpenLindows

[Anonymous Coward]

What a smeghead!

There is not an Operating System calle OpenLindows. It is a site that contains pre-compiled binaries for LindowsOS which you can buy from Lindows.com. Use the Internet. You could learn something.

Your post is basically saying: "Where can I get free shit?"

Re:lindows... I still don't get it

[thinkninja]

I understand Lindows better than OpenLindows. The WalMart bargin basement box has an interface that the average computer user (the much maligned Joe Sixpack) is familiar with. To them Windows == Computers (yes, I know this is a Bad Thing).

OpenLindows, however, seems to require as much effort as installing any other Linux distribution.

So what niche does it cater for, exactly?

S'wounds! A nit-picker you be!

[ivanmarsh]

8^)

Re:morons WANdering what all the hooplah's about?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you are back.

How did you know Joe Barr was called Papa Joe ? Are you from Austin or Dallas ?

The Lindows market.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to me the Lindows market is made up of non-expert users who either sick of Microsoft's inadequacies or saw a cheap PC in Walmart.
Such a user is unlikely to discover apt, so sites like OpenLindows are somewhat redundant.
This does not mean I disapprove of their existence - it's nice for someone with the know-how to have the option and it's an indicator of Lindows' good faith that they keep that option open.
Myself, I wouldn't pay to download open source packages (other than donations) so, again, if you got yourself a Lindows box the option is there.

--
fuzzix posting anon. because of dodgy karma issues :/

Re:The Lindows market.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be an ass, but very few (if any?) physical walmart stores have the Lindows computers. ...or saw a cheap PC at walmart.com would have been better ;)

Even more astonishing...

[jared_hanson]

I was roaming Sourceforge, and came across a curious project: Open IP PBX. It gave rise to this suspicion that I might be able to tie my two phone lines into one system. Here is a report on what I found, and more importantly, what I didn't:

I went to the website, and it was completely empty. It was your standard "index of" apache generated directory listing, with no files. Using my extensive knowledge of sourceforge, I found their project page. It looks like their is not much there, in fact, they have not even released any files. There is some stuff in CVS though. I conclude that probably not many people know about this project, or they simply aren't interested.

Re:Even more astonishing...

[lspd]

You forgot step #3

...continued...

Budget Linux CDs claims they will have a CD set available as soon as any files are released.

Re:Even more astonishing...

[don.g]

This is just as completely unrelated to OpenLindows.org, but Asterisk PBX is an open-source Linux-based PABX with IP support that is at a stage where it does useful things, as opposed to the sourceforge-project-with-Index-of-page stage.

The parent is right

[Overly Critical Guy]

"Wherefore art thou" is the most incorrectly used phrase I've ever heard.

Re:The parent is right

[diatonic]

lilo: linux init=/bin/bash - Instant root without password

That is why any sensible Linux Admin password protects the bootloader.

Re:The parent is right

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that's because you're illiterate?

Re:The parent is right

[Nucleon500]

Or better yet, doesn't give untrusted people physical access.

But.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are when are they going to fix the BIG security hole in Lindows, running as root by default! Its a time bomb waiting to happen. If there is going to be a LinBlaster, then Lindows will get it first.

Before you all scream "TYPE IN A CONSOLE USERADD USER", try telling that to your mum. All she wants to know is how to run frozen bubble, so therefore I sandboxed mine in Mandrake, secure, and idiotproof.

Re:But.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that it matters...

1. There are no open and running services on LindowsOS like there are on other distros (mail, web, ftp, etc..)

2. There is no C compiler by default

3. All ports are blocked by the built-in firewall

If if you could break in.. you couldn't do anything because there are no dev tools. In fact, there aren't even 'manpages' installed.

The whole "running as root" FUD is getting old.

Re:But.

[Anonymous Coward]

no manpages and no C compiler what is the world coming to.

Re:But.

[WWWWolf]

If if you could break in.. you couldn't do anything because there are no dev tools.

compromised:~# wget http://l33thax0rsite.example.com/gcc-linux-binarie s.tar.gz

...if there's no wget...

haxor@leet:~$ uuencode /usr/bin/wget ...

compromised:~# cat > /tmp/wget.uue
(Copy/paste the zillion lines of text here)
compromised:~# uudecode /tmp/wget.uue ...

...if there's no uudecode, it's not that difficult to write some kind of binary encoder/decoder, even in shell script...

Don't worry. As long as the hax0r has the shell, there's always some way he can do stuff on that machine.

Too bad removing /bin/sh entirely is not quite feasible...

clarifications

[pistooli]

:-) openlindows.com is just a hobby where is can put my own applications... lindowsdownload.com is just a small place where you can get binaries for lindows os. nothing less, nothing more... cheers - pistooli ( a long time GNU/Linux and debian user )

Foo

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably just another parasitic domain squatter. Ignore.

Relation between OpenLindows and OSCommerce?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone notice that their website design looks exacly like the design of OSCommernce (http://www.oscommerce.com/)? Is there any relation there or is there some program that both sites probably used for their design, which provides this look as one of their "canned" designs?

Just curious.

Re:Relation between OpenLindows and OSCommerce?

[ArCaNe50]

ya they are probably using netobjects fusion or smething like that. I HATE Premade sites thats gay. At least I have some origionality whbox.com

Two words

[Broken_Windows]

vi /etc/apt/sources.list



!wq

Re:Two words

[Anonymous Coward]

emacs /etc/apt/sources.list

C-x C-c

Re:Two words

[finkployd]

vi /etc/apt/sources.list


It saddens me to think that I too consider those to be two actual words.

(one point for me for correctly using to, too, and two in one sentance)

Finkployd

Re:Two words

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you meant :wq! - or better yet, ZZ .

Kind of ruins the smarminess when you get that kind of thing wrong.

Re:Two words

[spickus]

"(one point for me for correctly using to, too, and two in one sentance)"

Congratulations, perhaps next time you will spell sentence correctly.

Re:Two words

[finkployd]

I didn't want to get greedy, there are only so many points to go around.

Finkployd

Re:Two words

[cha0sadddddddd]

<offtopic>
cant use vi
cant use emacs
is there a compelling reason to learn either or?
I mean is there something I can do I cant do with nano grep awk cat sed ...etc?
other than shell scripts i do not (know how to yet)code.
</offtopic>

Where do they get the titles anyway?

[Frank O. File]

Whence did the title of this story come? I pity whomever tries to use rarely-used inquisitives in English. "Wherefore" essentially means "why" (it's actually more like "for what reason" but that's roughly "why"). Hence when Juliet asked "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" she asked (in modern parlance) "Why are you Romeo?" She was upset that he had to be born of the sworn enemies of her family. She was *not* asking where Romeo was at that moment. So the question is, what did the poster mean by "Openlindows.com: Wherefore art thou? Either he's really smart and means by this to ask why such a thing exists ("why are you" ~ "why do you exist") or he doesn't know what "wherefore" means and just wants a catchy title. I bet it's the latter. So the question is, wherefore exists such an editor as to use this title? By the way, openlindows sounds like a really good idea to me - it allows an easy way for lindows users (presumably less knowledgeable about software than most linux or unix users) to get acquainted with the idea of open source software and development. Sure, most of the users won't be developing themselves, but that's true for linux anyway.

LOL, A BITE!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was hoping a self-proclaimed troll buster will gimme a laugh.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
moron.

Consistancy in Modding....

[2toise]

sheesh (Score:1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 27, @05:34PM (#6808573) "Wherefore" means "why," not "where." When Shakespeare wrote, "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" he was saying, "Why are you 'Romeo?'" As in, "Why did you have to be born the son of my father's enemy?" Basic literacy, you know? Score:1, Offtopic, whereas: Wherefore != Where (Score:5, Informative) by RimmerExperience (456643) on Wednesday August 27, @05:38PM (#6808603) The article points to the lack of an Open Lindows community (e.g. 'where is it'?). 'Wherefore' in Olde English...e, however, means 'why' or 'for what reason'. Wherefore [realdictionary.com] [realdictionary.com] (Juliet laments "why are you Romeo", not "where are you Romeo?") Gets +5 Informative. Interesting...

Re:Consistancy in Modding....

[valkraider]

-1, unformatted/hard-to-read

Maybe no one uses Lindows???

[rindeee]

After all, every machine I've seen my peers purchase from WalMart.com or Tiger gets reformatted and Windows 98 installed on it from the old CD they have lying around. For $199 it's tough to bit...and Lindows blows.

I have purchased a few of them, installed SuSE 8.2 and made Hylafax servers out of them. Blah.

ER

Re:Maybe no one uses Lindows???

[evilviper]

For $199 it's tough to bit

Bull... You can find great $200 computers from smaller shops, that beat the crap out of what Walmart offers. Also, you save a lot of money buying from a smaller company, that only has a presence is one state... If you are in CA, and buy from a shop out-of state, you are going to save at least $15 (enough to make up for shipping costs).

I have purchased a few of them, installed SuSE 8.2 and made Hylafax servers out of them.

Why? Better computers can be found, easilly.

Openlindows

[9812713]

If you want a Windows like desktop - Choose Windows; If you want a linux os, Go all Linux, none of this propriety (spelling?) software distros.. I mean it is great that they are trying to make is easier for the average user (Click-n-Run) but if you want change, download a distro - install.. OH No! not a 0.25$ cd.. what will I ever do. Plus if it is debian based -- Shouldn't they just use apt-get... --- :) ---

Shouldn't OpenLindows have an XView interface? ;)

[J. J. Ramsey]

OpenLindows made me think of Sun's OpenWindows. Just imagine olvwm and all the various XView apps, and that menu that could be edited with a simple text editor.

Ok, maybe not.

First change I would make....

[gilesjuk]

Make Lindows run as something other than root, ludicrous to run as root with Linux.

I think this site is just a way of cutting their development costs.

Swedish equivalent

[Anonymous Coward]

This is even clearer when you consider the swedish translation. "Why" in swedish is "varfor" and "because" in swedish is "darfor". "var" means where and "dar" means there. This is not too unlikely given that england had a lot of interaction with vikings.

The only difference from english is that you have two choices of words to use (why, wherefore) when we only have one (varfor). Sorry for the offtopic post but it might be interesting to someone atleast.

Re:Swedish equivalent

[vpetersen]

I don't moderate and don't gather karma points so let me just verbally acknowledge that for me your post was +2 Interesting from linguistic point of view, although this discussion deviates from the original subject of OpenLindows, giving thus -1 Offtopic.

Many constructs of similar nature are often reproduced independently in unrelated countries/languages. Examples are not provided as I can't type fluently (if at all) with non-English kbd layouts.

Your site

[dbCooper0]

whbox.com has some originality, I agree. Didn't spend too much time there, but wanted to tell you that a computer can't be "taylored" (unless that's your name :)...if you want to emphasise the custom-built thing...the word is "tailored"

Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm being serious here. The Linux community seems to think that mastery of the desktop is an automatic thing. Distros like Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris - these are all frowned upon for mimicing Windows. Why? Sure, in the last few years, Linux has become more of what it should be, but there is a large, untapped source of people that would be willing to use it on the desktop, but are put off by the inherent dislike Linux users seem to have for Windows users. Don't you want them to switch? Well, to tell you the truth, you seem intent on damaging your own future, like using Linux is the only way, and anyone else is stupid.

Windows sucks. I wish I could get off of it, but I still use it on a daily basis simply because it's what I know. I've been on MS since DOS 3.3, why is it a surprise that I, just like 90% of computer users out there - am just not comfortable with a community that assumes too much?

Linux is great, Windows sucks, tell me something I don't know, like why one distro likes my sound card and another doesn't without tweaking. Why I can print on yet another distro, but the first two can't even see my server.

Linux has a long way to go, just like Windows does. The difference is a basic usability in Windows that is intuitive for those of us that *only know* Windows. Sure, mom can use Linux (except for her bible stuff and her preferred Mah Jong app). Sure, if I wasn't taking care of two kids, I would probably have the time to learn Linux, but right now, I - and many many others - want to make the switch but get very little help from YOU. You even attack your own "approved" list of Distros. Mandrake lovers bitch about RH. Debian lovers hate them both. Where is the love?

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[biggj]

You have a really good point. I was there for a long time. I started with DOS, then Windows 3.1, made the jump to apple for a few years and then came back to Windows when W2K came out. For the last year or two I have installed and reinstalled various different version of RH and Mandrake, along with attempting to install PPCLinux (a RH distro). Each time I would be okay for a few days, and then I would find some major thing I couldn't do that I needed to... and back to Windows I went.

When RH 9 came out, I was really hesitant to try it as my main desktop, so installed it on my extra machine (I have two at work). There I messed with it for a while, making sure that I could do everything I wanted. There are tons of GUI tools built into both KDE and GNOME. Along with ton's of help groups.google.com. After a few weeks, I decided I was ready for the switch.

I have been using RH9 with Ximian (mod of GNOME) as my desktop (which you have to install separately). I have KDE installed so that I can use some of there apps for burning and media and such. I have Crossover Office installed to run Excel and Word. I will admit I am on my second install, don't know why, but the first one got hosed (I think it had something to do with recompiling glibc). But since the second install, I have been fine. There isn't anything I can't do that I could on Windows. It a bit faster, and I had no trouble with the worms that were floating around.

A couple things I can say are:

1) installing with a flat Workstation/Server/etc. install doesn't typically give you ever thing you need.

2) the groups are you friend. Every question you can think of has been asked.

While Redhat may not be the best distro (I personally couldn't say), there are a ton of people using it, therefore there is tons of support for it.

That's my 2 cents ... (** flame away **)

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[AstroDrabb]

I personally have two problems with Lindows.

The first is that IMO they charge too much . Though I just read that they dropped the price to click-n-run to about $49 a year which is not bad.
The biggest problem I have with them is that they by default use the root user. This is a big no-no. This is just as bad as MS and having all users in the Administrators group. Using root all the time under Linux or any Unix is the biggest brain dead move a distro could make. It opens the user to all kinds of exploits and make it no better then MS windows. IMO, Red Hat is doing things the correct way as far as users needing to do things as root. You work as a normal user and when you need to do something that requires root, you get prompted for the root password. Stay away from Lindows OS.

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[The Revolutionary]

"Sure, mom can use Linux (except for her bible stuff and her preferred Mah Jong app)"

GNOME 2.x Mahjongg seems quite reasonable to me, and is quite sharp looking too. It should be included in your gnome-games package, er, that is, should hopefully be in the default install.

GnomeSword seems to be a fair enough tool for home Bible reference and study. There is a similar Windows version which she can use before switching to help determine whether it can meet her needs.

GnomeSword anyhow still uses GTK 1.2 (right?), which may or may not for your distro mean a somewhat inconsistent look and feel, so you might find the KDE equivalent, BibleTime preferable.

"The difference is a basic usability in Windows that is intuitive for those of us that *only know* Windows."

Have you tried the latest from Red Hat and Mandrake? If you haven't recently, and you would like to switch, keep trying, or see if you can find a friend or relative who can help you out.

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, mom can use Linux (except for her bible stuff and her preferred Mah Jong app)

Partially wrong. My "mom" found majong immediately after I dumped her doze because her system got trashed via a virus or 10 last year. She's never had a problem since, and the only support she's ever needed was to change her ppp #. Made my life a hell of a lot simpler!

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you completely missed the point. I wouldn't have any difficulty switching my mother. My mother isn't tech savvy at all, and probably wouldn't notice much of a difference (until she went looking for something new and started grilling me because her machine wouldn't run it without an emulator).

I currently use Mandrake. I had a RH 9 install on here for a couple weeks. My experience with these two distros, specifically, got me riled up enough to post. I've been a computer tech for more than a decade. Why should I need a friend or relative to help me out? Why can't I just go on the web and find a friggin' step by step tutorial?

Little hint, in Windows *you don't ever have to recomplie the kernel* so saying "recompile the kernel" is not enough instruction. I shouldn't have to spend 20 minutes searching for a tutorial, then another ten looking for one that will explain how to do something that is absolutely necessary to install a program.

This all comes back to my statement of:

"The difference is a basic usability in Windows that is intuitive for those of us that *only know* Windows."

It still fits, and the biggest bitch of the whole thing is that Linux users not only don't seem to remember the horrors of their own switch, they rarely acknowledge that switching can even be difficult!

Re:Why is Linux so anti-Lindows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's an idea, why not stop loading Outlook on her machine instead? Why not use Opera or Mozilla or Firebird?

You know, there is a part of me that desparately wants to see Linux succeed entirely on the grounds of when Linux has a 90% market share of the desktop, all these idiots that write Windows viruses will start after the Linux crowd.

I have run Windows since 1992. How many viruses do you think I have had? 2. Thats it. Just 2. Both of them on a machine that I wasn't even *allowed* to install a virus scanner, let alone a better email client.

To sound *correctly* intellectual

[Jerf]

If you want to sound correctly psuedo-intellectual, this situation calls for whence .

Still, as a psuedo-intellectual myself, I'd suggest sticking to "where's". (IMHO, the time to lift the restriction in formal writing on contractions has come. OTOH, acronyms still don't belong there yet. ;-) or smilies ;-) )

Re:To sound *correctly* intellectual

[justinburt]

psuedo-intellectual

FYI, it's "pseudo-" not "psuedo-" (unless you really want to sound like a pseudo-intellectual)

Why would it be "whence"?

"Whence" = "from where" ("hence" = "from here"; "thence" = "from there")
"Whither" = "to where" ("hither" = "to here" e.g. "hither and yon" "all over the place"; "thither" = "to there")

Similar sound relationships between various correlatives occur in lots of languages, particularly Ancient Greek, Japanese (ko-so-a-do series), Gaelic, also mildly in German (if you push it).

Justin

Re:To sound *correctly* intellectual

[Jerf]

"Whence X?" is often used as in "Where did X come from? What is X?" which is appropriate in this case. (I looked it up in the dictionary (m-w.com) and didn't see this either, but I've seen it enough to know it's legitimate usage.) "Where the heck did OpenLindows come from?"

"Whither X?" is often used as in "Where is X going?" You could make a case for "Where the heck is OpenLindows going?" but I don't think that was the idea here.

"Often" here being relative, but I have seen each more then once.

Wherefore?

[AJWM]

Therefore!

Re:Wherefore?

[jvj24601]

> Therefore!

There castle!

Re:Wherefore?

[finkployd]

Why are you talking like that?

Finkployd

Trademarks

[blang]

The public relations strategy of LindowsOS seems to be to play to the general/Windows trade press and to ignore the Linux press. Given that their target audience is found among Windows users rather than those already using Linux, that may be not a bad plan. So maybe my query to Schwarzman went unanswered because of that reticence. Or maybe they just didn't want to say anything that might give OpenLindows more ink. That would make sense too.

I would imagine the silence might be more of a legal nature. I imagine lindows have trademarked lindows, so their PR guy might not have a statement untill their lawyers have figured out how to deal with openLindows.

Merely use last non-gpl of WINE vs GPL of WINE

[Anonymous Coward]

Merely use last non-gpl of WINE vs GPL of WINE!

take the last known non-gpl version of WINE (I have it)

rewrite the parts changed by the best known recent source-code-avaialble version of GPL version of WINE and integrate.

laboriously try to determine waht few enhancements Lindows wine has that neither of the other two lacked and enineer a few changes...

then you have a non-gpl version of a product worth millions of dolalrs to walmart as well.

PROFIT!

its what all the hypocrites do.

there are nearly a hundred open source projects that eventually when proprietary. including databases. (CDDB! , IMDB! , etc)

the "open" world is full of hypocrites and liars.

at least the BSD (freebsd, openbsd, netbsd) guys are not hypocrite liars

cdrecord? HAH! cripple ware so you have to buy the fork with dvd-r!

people get help for BOCHs then bottle it up slowly next.

everyone asks for help from more skilled experts on source forge then stop releasing source.

lindows saga is just one of 100 hypocritical stories.

but THANKFULLY many have the last known non-gpl source of wine and the current open WINE.

too bad no one leaks the proprietary xwine like DOOM 2 sources

My findings

[duffbeer703]

It seems that 1/4 or more of Slashdot "stories" are advertisements, not content.

Re:My findings

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmmmm, beer.......

Lindows does not run as root anymore

[David Jao]

Make Lindows run as something other than root, ludicrous to run as root with Linux.

Let's please put this myth to rest. This is the third time this month that I have posted to correct this misimpression.

Lindows used to run everything as root, but current versions of Lindows don't run everything as root anymore. You have the option to add regular users during installation, and the installation encourages you to do so.

Just like in redhat.

Just like in debian.

I'm not advocating Lindows by any means (I don't even like their product), but I do think it is important to get the facts correct.

Grey Cat 3.0 and Slackware

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us Grey Cat Linux 3.0 users have added Slackware packages, and have added stuff like FVWM, Blackbox. Debian's apt-get is much better as it gets all the extras you need to run whatever you want in "apt-get install galeon" for instance. And, if it's too much to get on your dialup, you can select "n" (no) and not do that. I wish Slackware could do that for GCL, then I could run later versions of Netscape. GCL has version 3.04, which if you turn off Javascript, is ok, but I would like a 4x Netscape. Some have managed to get a 4x to run, but I haven't. So, my GCL is not GCL anymore, it's part Slackware, but it's better for the changes, but hard to reinstall. I have to save a lot of stuff with lots of readme's to reinstall and get the combo back like it was. Since GCL is really part of Windows (or DOS) it's hard to use "dd" to clone it, and something like ext2resize won't work either to expand the partition. I've used DriveCopy, however, and that works.

I also like the fact that...

[Anonymous Coward]

there is a nice copyright at the bottom of the page, and the ENTIRE site is ripped straight from oscommerce.com

hmm WAY TO GO...

Yeah..."Whatfor fartest thou" is more correct...

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone should update Shakespeare's crappy old language with more modern language...before anyone complains, isn't that what many say about the King James Bible? -- I always found that kind of strange:
"Shakespeare's language is fine, we just have to increase our vocabulary to understand it -- if we don't understand it, we're obviously not sophisticated and intelligent enough."
"The King James Bible's language is way out of date we should change it to something more modern and easier to read because no one speaks that way anymore."

(By the way, Shakespeare's language is fine as it is and so is the the language of the King James Bible IMHO)

Oh, well...excuse me for farting on you all. :-)

ahahaha

[Anonymous Coward]

I went to the openlindows site, and under "news" they have a link to "firebird packaged". I thought this would be a nice news story about how they have MozillaFirebird packaged in the OS. It's not, it is the actual .deb package for Moz* which then downloads. (well, in Galeon on Debian 2.2 you get a page full of characters unless you right click on it) Not such a good idea for an older Debian kernel, Moz won't run on it, and apt-get would be a better way to download, so all dependencies are taken care of. .deb packages are ok, but I prefer apt-get. Anyway, MozillaFirebird is a good addition to a Lindows/Debian combo system as I believe you just get Mozilla with the Lindows OS.

Thank goodness Lindows put apt-get in.

Tiger Direct has some cheap PC's($200.00) with Lindows preinstalled, so apt-get is a grand way to upgrade/add stuff to that. They also have one without any OS that would probably take RHL 9 ($30.00 in bookstore) and a full install of that would be about 3.5 GB of the 20GB HDD provided. Lots of choices here, but I can see why people would wind up with a Lindows PC, and want a cheaper alternative to the click n run warehouse.

In that case...

[dsfox]

your mum probably hasn't opened any ports in the firewall and so is not at risk.

Its known, just not by all.

[mschoolbus]

I am quite sure these websites are circling around on the "Lindows Insider" forums, a lot of talk goes on there.

SCO OpenLindows

[ExEleven]

SCO's new "Open" product.

Why Lindows ?

[draxredd]

Go Winux !

cliches

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey man, why are you knocking cliches? What is wrong with cliches?

I mean, everyone uses them!

Interesting experiments

[heironymouscoward]

As the article mentions, Lindows appears to be selling mainly to Windows users, which is not surprising.

What's remarkable, though, is that a site like OpenLindows seems quite weak, with no strong community and strange discussions between bewildered users and pseudo-geeks who are assumed to be Microsoft shims stirring up the mud.

Q: "Why can't I access my second partition?"

A: "Since ext2fs does not allow fsck, you will find that only RedHat lets you check the free space on your partitions. Note that there are other disk systems, you might find that ext3fs works better for you."

(I'm not quoting, just imitating).

Why is this interesting to the Linux community? Because use of Linux on the desktop is less of a technical issue than a social issue. Here we have an operating system package squarely aimed and marketed at Windows users, and here we have the beginnings of a web site community that uses it.

It's easy to laugh, but we also laughed when ten million AOL users joined "the Internet". If a significant number of Windows users switched to Linux, for whatever reason, we would see dozens of sites like this.

Perhaps what Linux needs - to convince Windows users to switch - is not one more application, but a community model that actually works for ex-Windows users.

actually...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's dammit, not damnit.

How this can be done?

[Vitus Wagner]

I don't beleive that project such as OpenLinows is possible at all. I know just two reasons which motivate authors of successful software projects:

1. Personal need in software which does just that
   
2. Money
   

If we are talking about OSS project, second reason doesn't apply

Creating click'n'run software requires considerable qualification.

Person who is qualified enough to write such thing couldn't have a personal need for it. There can be only two cases

1. One need to install system on few (typically very different in hardware) machines
   
2. One need to install system on the lot of (typically simular) machines
   

In first case it is simplier to manually install and tune up, say Debian.

For second case FAI is invented.

awesome thread

[Anonymous Coward]

What the heck is going on in this thread?

http://forum.openlindows.com/viewtopic.php?t=295

It's like the guy is asking questions and then the people are answering someone else's questions. This is not the way to ease people to linux.

Re:Yeah..."Whatfor fartest thou" is more correct..

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider the comparisons your making here. The King James Bible is a translation of very old documents into a language that people could better understand, and the task was performed by over fifty different translators collabotating to create a book of teaching. The primary purpose of this book is taking passages of hebrew and greek and turning them into english. Shakespeare was a single person, an artist of the english language, a playwrite whose use of the language itself is as important to the work as the story itself. The STORY of the Bible is what's important for the purpose of religious experience. As long as the message itself is conveyed, the purpose has been accomplished. Anyone looking for the original context of the story is better to study hebrew and investigate the original text. Rewording Shakespeare's works cliffnotes-style might save you time on your homework, but will deny you from understanding half the reason we celebrate his genius as a writer.

Re:sheesh...pendantry raised to new levels?

[Anonymous Coward]

Smegging smegheads are smegging smegged!

In Other News

[MrBlint]

Microsoft anounce the "Closed Graphical Networking Utopia" or Closed GNU.

atang1 will rule them all

[ph43thon]

for a good time, read atang1's comments

He's the great moderator at lindowsuser.com and I'm certain his tech support savvy will secure a rock solid user base for Lindows.

atang1 gives those tech supporters in Bangalore a run for their money.

e

Re:atang1 will rule them all

[ph43thon]

oh... and here's something for all you lonely Lindows users who share a love for the Lord Jesus

free-as-in-speech?

[Anonymous Coward]

is Lindows restricting my freedom of speech? Those bastards

relax! It's just Slashdot.

[rneches]

As a long-time Linux user, I agree completely.

With one caviat: You are describing the Slashdot ecology, not the Linux community in general. People come to Slashdot because they want to rant about something. For reasons I don't understand (tradition? the moderation system? Hemos?), it attracts all the hotheads in, well, just about every software community I can think of.

The wider *NIX community is actually pretty mellow, with a few well-documented exceptions. Theo de Raadt, for instance. He's a well known dickhead, but even he admits that. (And in his case, his acidic personality actually serves to make OpenBSD more secure, I think.)

Slashdot is fun, but don't take it too seriously, or as even as representative.

Re:Yeah..."Whatfor fartest thou" is more correct..

[Paradise Pete]

Someone should update Shakespeare's crappy old language with more modern language...

It's poetry, ya know. Changing the words kinda breaks that, dontcha think?