Stonehenge Discovery using 3D Laser Scanning

Alligator Descartes writes "The BBC reports - 'High-tech lasers have been used to unlock the secrets of Stonehenge. The work at the ancient site in Wiltshire has already uncovered two carvings which are invisible to the naked eye.' The project website contains lots of images plus some nice animations of the scan data."

Comments

And what do those carvings say?

[corebreech]

Why, "first post" of course.

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[Seehund]

"You don't have to be a druid to predict Stonehenge's future. The hand writing is on the wall: The Middle Neolithic faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for megaliths because the Middle Neolithic is dying."

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[cygnus]

And what do those carvings say?

<spinal_tap>"Where the Demons ROCK!"</spinal_tap>

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[Gorignak]

"No it's a C with a circle around it. Microsoft put it there for later use."

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[beantowne]

Looks to me like it says slashdotted.

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[bev_tech_rob]

Another carving said 'Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these!! '

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[Dsal]

"The Druids...
Nobody knows who they were
Or... what they were doing
But their legacy remains...."

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[anactofgod]

It's obvious that Stonehenge is the world's first optical storage media. Anyone have the .mp3 of the Stonehenge recording? I hear that a band called Spinal Tap has covered it, but I'm interested in hearing the original Druidic version.

---anactofgod---

Re:And what do those carvings say?

[ralphclark]

(Score:0, Paleolithic)

Lasers are Wrong

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

I always thought Stonehenge was early modern art-deco.

Re:Lasers are Wrong

[snow_man]

more like early craftsman styling to my eye, but i'm picking virtual nits here.

Bad Link in story

[Brahmastra]

Here's the correct link

Re:Bad Link in story

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a link to a press release from Wessex Archaeology that includes pictures: http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/press/stonehenge_laser s.html

That looks familiar

[thrill12]

Isn't that the Mars face ?

OMG StoneHenge was created by aliens!

Re:That looks familiar

[thrill12]

Same thought, two different places in time and space.
Deep :)

Hmmm...

[Whispers_in_the_dark]

I'm no archaeologist, but the images have about the same level of conclusiveness as to their composition (that they are "axe-heads") as the Cydonia Face. I'm sure there are other reasons for their conclusions but I sure don't see them from my untrained eye.

Re:Hmmm...

[stevesliva]

From the press release:

The stones at Stonehenge were put up in about 2,300 BC. The axes are of types made around 1,800 BC, so the carvings are likely to be five centuries younger than the stones. Their purpose is a mystery.

Axe carvings on other monuments from this time are associated with burials, such as the seven axes found on a stone burial cist (a box shaped stone structure) in Argyll, Scotland. This could indicate that Stonehenge was a place where the dead were commemorated, a theory backed by the many burial mounds found near the monument.

Re:Hmmm...

[On Lawn]

What troubles me is how they could tell a carving of a bronze ax as opposed to say a steel or bone ax.

"The carvings of bronze axe heads are between four and six inches long."

Re:Hmmm...

[buttahead]

Similar markings were found at the site in the 1950s, but archaeologists say these are now too badly eroded to be seen.

looks as if there may have been some pigment in the images mentioned above. That could lead someone to the conclusion... but then again kids often color the sky green or people green with crayons. color might not indicate reality. in conclusion... i think they are guessing.

Re:Hmmm...

[PainKilleR-CE]

It might have something to do with the fact that Stonehenge and the carvings date to the early portion of the Bronze Age. Therefore, it's very likely that the axe heads would be bronze.

Re:Hmmm...

[keep_it_simple_stupi]

Wouldn't that just iritate us if it just turned out to be graffiti? I keep wondering what might happen if someone 4000 years from now found a random sticky note from my desk.

Phrase - "Delete user user's access from domain."

Interperatation - "Some great and powerful leader is able to grant and revoke a drug addict's access to his land. And what is this sticky stuff on the back?"

Real answer - "This is a sticky note from an under paid sysadmin doing menial data entry work on an active directory project."

Re:Hmmm...

[johkir]

So a few people were tied to the stones, friends or enemies came by and chopped them down (ropes? arms?). 500 years later! Now we know why the monument was built?!

Re:Hmmm...

[Cromac]

Interesting. My first thought when seeing the photos is that it looked like the Thors hammer used as a religious symbol, with the head up rather than down as it's usually displayed today. These symbols are apparently much older than most people think of for the viking mythology, but maybe the mythos are older than we know.

Re:Hmmm...

[Rheingold]

There was a great children's book I read once about this very thing. Well, not about your sticky note, but the premise was the same. It was hilarious. I haven't been able to find it again.

Re:Hmmm...

[donpardo]

Motel of Mystery

Re:Hmmm...

[belthezar]

Wow what a great premise for a book! Thanks for pointing that out, might have to pick that one up.

Re:Hmmm...

[Lord_Dweomer]

I actually had a discussion about this in class. We were talking about reenactments and how some of the ones done today are probably HORRIBLY inaccurate based on the data we have of the time. However, in the future, barring some sort of massive information loss, I think they'll have an EXTREMELY clear picture of what life was like today due to our ability to digitally record our data, and the fact that since storage is so cheap now that we tend to store almost everything.

Re:Hmmm...

[rmdyer]

Our brains are great at detecting patterns in noise. The problem is, our brains are equally great at believing there are patterns in noise where there are none. Faces are the thing we "see" the best because "imprinting" is a biological function. We need to imprint because we need to know who will protect us, or help us, and who is dangerous to us. Facial recognition is near 100 percent with the brain so it's not difficult to see why we try to make out facial patterns in noise.

+1

that's great but

[another misanthrope]

how can they tell if the axe-head markings are from the creators or just really really old graffiti?

Re:that's great but

[thenextpresident]

They mention it in the article, that they weren't put their by the creators. The axe heads are from (iirc) 1500BC, and stonehenge was created more than 500 years before that.

However, these axe heads coincide with other similiar burial sites.

Re:that's great but

[CmdrGravy]

That's what puzzled me, in the article it says that they hope to uncover various carvings which were visible in the 50's but have since eroded away. Well that's only 50 years so if they were carvings by the creators it is strange they are able to last 2000+ years and then erode away in the last 50 !

I think it's much more likely most of the carving has been done by people since the monuments were erected.

Re:that's great but

[Thyrsus]

Acid rain is a recent phenomenon.

Re:that's great but

[barakn]

it is strange they are able to last 2000+ years and then erode away in the last 50 !

Try using your imagination. The Great Smog of London in 1952 was responsible for killing 4000 people. Levels of sulfur dioxide jumped dramatically and the smog pH dropped to 1.4-1.9, more acid than battery acid. Symptomatic of a society heavily dependent on coal after they chopped all their forests down.

Re:that's great but

[barakn]

... or massive amounts of tourons (sorry, tourists) rubbing the stone with their hands, thanks to the convenient motorway built nearby.

Re:that's great but

[BrokenHalo]

but have since eroded away. Well that's only 50 years so...

I think this is why it's no longer possible for the average tourist to get really close to those stones. When I was a kid, I was able to climb all over them (not that I was particularly tempted, though I was mightily impressed) but I believe it was precisely this type of erosion (plus, of course the prevalence of modern graffiti-artists' "talent") that brought about the decision to reduce access for the unwashed masses.

Re:Nuclear war

[djeaux]

They had a war, and are warning us not to repeat their mistakes...

Either that or they were into psilocybin.

But how do they know...

[YanceyAI]

The article says researchers are hoping the carvings will help them better understand Stonehenge. I visited the site, but I can't tell if they are implying that they know the carvings and the arrangement of the stones were done by the same people.

Could the stone arrangement predate the carvings?

Does anyone know if there is proof that understanding the carvings will actually help them understand Stonehenge? Maybe the axes are just bronze age graffiti.

Re:But how do they know...

[stevesliva]

Could the stone arrangement predate the carvings?

From the press release:

The stones at Stonehenge were put up in about 2,300 BC. The axes are of types made around 1,800 BC, so the carvings are likely to be five centuries younger than the stones. Their purpose is a mystery.

Re:But how do they know...

[Angram]

Then again, they could have been used to put it together. The markings could have been used to differentiate the stones. Stone C (axe) on top of Stones B (dagger) and C (man), etc..

Re:But how do they know...

[markt4]

Why are the assembly instructions always in some foreign language? And why can I never find tab C that is supposed to fit into slot D?

Re:But how do they know...

[YanceyAI]

Ahh! Thank you.

Re:But how do they know...

[Zocalo]

The markings could have been used to differentiate the stones. Stone C (axe) on top of Stones B (dagger) and C (man), etc..

I now have an image of Stonehenge arriving in huge flatpacks with the ancient rune of "Ikea" stamped on them. Actually, given the typical Brit's bafflement at a set of instructions from Ikea, that probably explains it - Stonehenge was *supposed* to be a five piece table and chair set, but the druids read the plans wrong... ;)

Re:But how do they know...

[Zirnike]

"Could the stone arrangement predate the carvings?"

Seriously, I'd be MUCH more interested if the carvings predated the stone arrangement...

Re:But how do they know...

[Jhon]

Their purpose is a mystery

Graffiti?

Damn kids!

Re:But how do they know...

[lordkimbot]

Hilarious! A bag of leftover, unused hardware was later dug up nearby....

Re:But how do they know...

[paganizer]

well, it certainly makes more sense than carvings predating stonehenge.

Re:But how do they know...

[Guppy06]

Nah, they just couldn't find the allen wrench so they just gave up.

Re:But how do they know...

[ralphclark]

ROTFLMAO!

Proof, if it were ever needed, that scores should be able to go higher than 5...

In danger of being crushed by a dwarf?

[Channard]

So how long before the laser scanning data is used to produced smaller replicas of Stonehenge? I'm sure there's a market there for selling them to new-agers / people who want more than just a gnome in their gardens.

Re:In danger of being crushed by a dwarf?

[Zocalo]

I'm sure there's a market there for selling them to new-agers / people who want more than just a gnome in their gardens

Surely you mean a gnomon?

wow...

[OgreChow]

They found 3 more little axe head things among the 50 they've already found....now the answers to the mysteries of Stonehenge are so clear!

Who pays for this stuff?

Purpose

[mopslik]

I can just imagine the conversation that must have taken place when they were building Stonehenge:

"What can we do to immortalize our civilization?"
"Hey, let's build a giant stone monument with no discernable purpose!"
"Man, that will mess with their heads for YEARS!"

Re:Purpose

[WinterSolstice]

Obviously, a very standard conversation... held frequently early on May 2nd (for Celts) or whatever the local equiv was. We have those massive animals in the Americas, the Pyramids, Stonehenge, etc.

I wonder what will be left from us? Perhaps they will find some piece of random modern art and say "Wow! They understood advanced Heisenberg compensation almost 1000 years ago! They built a nuanced particle meter!"

I think scientists tend to find what they want to find, not always what is there. Remember, the purpose of research is to disprove your hypothesis. It's too easy to prove it.

-WS

Re:Purpose

[mopslik]

I think scientists tend to find what they want to find, not always what is there.

During one of my archaeology classes, the standard phrase was "when in doubt, label it as 'ceremonial purpose'".

Re:Purpose

[glenebob]

>> I wonder what will be left from us?

Twinkies, of course.

Re:Purpose

[Ambient Sheep]

Perhaps they will find some piece of random modern art and say "Wow! They understood advanced Heisenberg compensation almost 1000 years ago! They built a nuanced particle meter!"

I think scientists tend to find what they want to find, not always what is there.

Point taken in the general case, but in Stonehenge's case the astronomical stuff you can do with it is just too convincing. For example, because of the way it links moon and sun movements it could only have been built on two places on earth - and the other is under the Pacific Ocean. It had to be built where it is for the astronomical stuff to work.

Re:Purpose

[fucksl4shd0t]

During one of my archaeology classes, the standard phrase was "when in doubt, label it as 'ceremonial purpose'".

One of my archaeology professors used to say "Archeology is the pursuit of fact, not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, check out the philosophy class down the hall."

Hmmm, come to think of it, that was the same archaeology professor who recovered the Ark of the Covenant. He was cool. Looks just like Harrison Ford!

Re:Purpose

[WinterSolstice]

I was actually referring more to this recent "discovery" than to stonehenge itself. However, I don't entirely subscribe to the astronomical theories, since I haven't seen any solid evidence it was deliberate.

I'm not saying it wasn't, BTW. I'm just saying that just because it seems obvious to us doesn't mean it was obvious to them. The only way to know would be the discovery of some sort of "plan" or "design" or something that suggested heavily that we are correct in its intended purpose.
Until then, I will still assume that if fulfilled an unknown role :)

-WS

Re:Purpose

[forkboy]

Yeah, big deal, They built the stones to align with the motion of celestial bodies in that particular location. There are about 2 billion other places on earth where the particular pattern of motion of celestial bodies are unique that that location as well. You could just as easily build another stonehenge with a different rock formation there. This proves nothing.

Re:Purpose

[ITMagic]

Ahem, actually, there aren't that many places where you could either move the stones, or put a different arrangement in the same place. The lattitude is highly specific - most henges occur around 51-59 deg north. The 'magic' number happens to be 55 degrees, which just so happens to be the the same lattitude as Hadrians Wall - not designed to keep the Scots in/out (which has never worked!), but to desecrate this 'magic' spot. I didn't believe in much of the hype about the henges, until I started reading. Fact: all the henges use the same unit of measurement, despite being scattered in distance and time. This unit is _very_ precise. Another 'horrible' fact: multiply this unit by 60 minutes, then by the no of degrees in a circle, and you get the circumference of the earth, accurate to todays estimate to within 20 meters or so!!! Not fact, but plausible theory (for me at least), is The Book of Enoch (bits in the Bible, Dead Sea Scrolls ...) clearly describe a henge - and the estimated location was approx (yes, you guessed it) 55 degrees north. Odd, for a Jewish text... There's too much to go on, but the 'coincidences' are so numerous, it is hard NOT to reach the conclusion that these sites were very accurate, and very important. Get a good read - fascinating even if you don't believe. Uriel's Machine, by Knight & Lomas.

They look rather dubious to me

[los furtive]

They look more like the sort of mark left after the impact of a metal object. Maybe someone just banged an axe against the stone. Cavemen were capable of better art than this (I'm not talking about the alignment of the stones themselves).

Re:They look rather dubious to me

[gfxguy]

Really! All the work and precision that went into putting all these massive stones into place, then they put crappy art on it? It's like building a mansion and decorating it with black velvet Elvis paintings.

Re:They look rather dubious to me

[PhysicsExpert]

This is actually a very good point, the impact marks do look very crude and not at all like the type of art found at sites of a similar age. Perhaps the best way would be analyse the stones in a mass spectrometer to look for traces of metal from an axe.

I think the most impressive thing about stonehenge is that in order to build it, the neaderthal men would have had to understand an awful lot about the world. They managed to align it so that it produces perfectly circular shadows on the two solstice days, which implies that not only did they realise that the sun was at the center of the solar system, but they had correctly estimated the earth-sun distance to within .5%. As an example of how impressive this was, the stones were disturbed in the mid 17th Centuary and the best scholars of the day (including Robert Hooke) were unable to realign them properly. It was only a hundred years later with the invention of mechanical calculating machines that the correct positions could be identified and the correct shadows re-established.

Re:They look rather dubious to me

[Queuetue]

Perhaps the best way would be analyse the stones in a mass spectrometer to look for traces of metal from an axe.

I wonder if this would indicate anything - if enough of the face of the stone has worn away to obscure the marks, wouldn't the embedded metal be worn away first?

I'm just wondering, by the way - I don't actually know anything at all about rock wear or how deeply tools embed material.

Re:They look rather dubious to me

[los furtive]

Perhaps the best way would be analyse the stones in a mass spectrometer to look for traces of metal from an axe.

True, but even if it was intentional art, wouldn't metal have been required to carve it? I suppose stone could also be used, but stone is better for chipping away at edges, not for making impressions. It would still be inconclusive.

Re:They look rather dubious to me

[barakn]

it produces perfectly circular shadows on the two solstice days, which implies that not only did they realise that the sun was at the center of the solar system, but they had correctly estimated the earth-sun distance to within .5%

It seems like all it would take is knowledge of which days were solstices (a simple observational matter). I can find no references to the "circular shadow' theory either. Most mentions of archeoastronomy in regards to Stonehenge are of solstice sunsets and sunrises framed by stones or aligned above marker stones. These kind of alignments would merely require the builders to remember what points on the horizon these few special events occur on. Links to the "circular shadow" theory would be greatly appreciated, as would an explanation of why it is insufficient to know the path the sun takes through the sky.

Re:They look rather dubious to me

[TwistedGreen]

Oh, well in that case, it was obviously aliens.

It could be anything...

[Ransak]

... including based on the female anatomy.

Re:It could be anything...

[DeekGeek]

Thanks, you just made my Friday. Wait until I tell the wife that I want to visit "Stonehenge". =B)

Re:It could be anything...

[__aafutm5472]

I like these lines from that story:

...first thought of Stonehenge's connection to women after noticing how some of the stones were smooth, while others were left rough.

"It must have taken enormous effort to smooth the stones,"

So, what he's saying is that women can be smooth (tame? pleasant to be around?) and/or rough (PMS? WTF?), and that it would take a huge effort to make them tolerable?

In other news, Dr. Perks' was beaten to death by 600 women in his neighborhood...

Re:It could be anything...

[glenebob]

Now that sounds logical. Everything that's ever happened in the history of the Earth has been the result of some combination of money and the female anatomy. Actually, money is one of them, so really, *everything* is the result of girls, and/or the lack thereof (think slashdot). It's true!

Re:It could be anything...

[sporktoast]

... including based on the female anatomy.

From the referred article:
Anthony Perks, a professor emeritus of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of British Colombia in Vancouver, and a doctor at the university's Women's Hospital, first thought of Stonehenge's connection to women after noticing ...

Somebody obviously needs to spend more time away from the office. That one week trip in the southwestern English countryside was apparently not enough. Seriously, this seems to be more a case of how if you spend your life swinging a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

How do they know...

[jniver]

How do they know that the figures that are found were there from the beginning and not some punk at some point put them there (grafitti)

I dunno...

[iiioxx]

Looks more like tool marks than "carvings" to me. I think this is just a bunch of archeologists seeing what they want to see.

Re:I dunno...

[G4Outcast]

I thought the same thing. However, I think that anyone who takes the time to scan each one of those huge stones is going to make a big deal out of anything they find. While this finding might seem small, I'm sure that this will lead scientists in some way. Perhaps it can help us get some information about the tools they used and therefore about the people that created it. Who knows?

Re:I dunno...

[gnovos]

Looks more like tool marks than "carvings" to me. I think this is just a bunch of archeologists seeing what they want to see.

And this is new in archeology... how?

Re:Cue the song...

[smittyoneeach]

yeah: <insert cool ASCII logo blocked by lameness filter here>, yeah.

So what's the secret?

[andy1307]

The article says the hi-fi super duper lasers have unlocked the stonehenge secret...but it doesn't say what the secret is.

Re:So what's the secret?

[Senjaz]

If they told you, it wouldn't be a secret would it ;)

Some of the carvings found with the laser

[The_ForeignEye]

Besides the shapes, they also found WRITING incriptions! among them:

• Skimpy was here (1969)
• Ron loves Linda
• Go Western United!
• Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder
• I hate you Bill!

Sorry... it's friday. I couldn't help it. It was a long week for me...

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[Doomrat]

Go Western United!

Stonehenge is in England you FREAK.

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[Amiga Lover]

This reminds me of some of the writing found on the walls of buildings in pompeii, see their graffiti here

Some of the inscriptions include:

"Lucius pinxit" (Lucius painted this), an ancient equivalent to "I was 'ere" and "Myrtis bene felas" (Myrtis, you do great blow jobs). People don't change :)

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[sharkey]

Skimpy was here

What about Kilroy?

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[YankeeInExile]

No no no .. that's not what it said at all. Recent analysis shows it should have been read as

1. Build Enormous Stone Structure
2. ?????
3. Profit

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[andy1307]

Don't reach out for catchable foul bals.

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[hesiod]

> > Go Western United!
> Stonehenge is in England

I know! That's what makes it so mysterious! WooOOOOoooOOOooo...

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[wideBlueSkies]

>>What about Kilroy?

Domo Origato

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[ralphclark]

Huh? "Thank you" in Japanese? I don't get it.

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[Verne]

nah, arigato is spelt with an a. nfi what 'origato' means.

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[ralphclark]

The Japanese don't spell it with an 'a'. Or any other roman letter either.

'o' pronounced by a US person sounds like 'a' pronounced by a British speaker. Hence British English/Japanese dictionaries might spell it with an 'o' anyway.

Sorry if that sounds pedantic. Anyway it looks like spelling is the least of wildBlueSkies' problems.

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[wideBlueSkies]

Yeah, the first thing that pops into my head is a Styx reference...

Sorry, it was a rough day. :)

wbs.

Re:Some of the carvings found with the laser

[ralphclark]

Or vice versa or something, you know what I mean.

Re:Nuclear war

[welloy]

No, they had nuclear power plants and this is where they buried their waste.

Isn't it obvious?

This monument is their warning to the future to never dig here.

"unlocked the secrets" ??

[3Suns]

Why are they saying that they're unlocked the secrets? So the secret of stonehenge is "There's a lot of the same repeated pattern all over the place"? This doesn't answer any questions at all - they already know that. All they found is about 6 more silly axehead designs, just like the ones all over the other stones. Maybe they can use it to find writing or something. Until then, they haven't really unlocked anything.

who were they?

[buttahead]

hmmm... they are either ax heads... meaning the people who built these were a war-like band, or they were really into or mushrooms

Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[Senjaz]

From the project website:

"But the advent of radiocarbon dating showed decisively that Stonehenge was much older than Mycenae. Indeed, the idea of making carvings in stone springs from a long tradition."

Right, carbon dating rocks eh? Using what carbon? Carbon dating can only date things which had sufficient carbon 14 content and is based on its radio active decay to carbon 12. It only works on things that were once living (I'm no scientist but I'm pretty sure these rocks weren't) and even then it can produce hideously inaccurate results.

As for the scanning. The markings could be anything. Because of the extent of errosion there is no way you can tell if these were done shortly after construction or years afterwards.

Nothing but misinformation here.

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[tommten]

sticks and bones will break those stones

http://www.eng-h.gov.uk/stoneh/start.htm#methods
hopefully the people that erected stonehenge left other findings in the area.. what has been dated has been from other archeological findings in the area..

they couldn't been eating rocks during lunchbreaks could they?

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[widderslainte]

Right, carbon dating rocks eh?

Why not, it worked on Stargate ;)

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[dan dan the dna man]

Yes, I'm sure they radiocarbon dated the stones, and not finds from the Stonehenge site...

At least you read the article (even if you couldn't control your knee jerk post)

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[PainKilleR-CE]

Right, carbon dating rocks eh? Using what carbon? Carbon dating can only date things which had sufficient carbon 14 content and is based on its radio active decay to carbon 12. It only works on things that were once living (I'm no scientist but I'm pretty sure these rocks weren't) and even then it can produce hideously inaccurate results.

compared to http://www.c14dating.com/int.html

Of major recent interest is the development of the Accelerator Mass Spectrometry method of direct C14 isotope counting. In 1977, the first AMS measurements were conducted by teams at Rochester/Toronto and the General Ionex Corporation and soon after at the Universities of Simon Fraser and McMaster (Gove, 1994). The crucial advantage of the AMS method is that milligram sized samples are required for dating. Of great public interest has been the AMS dating of carbonacous material from prehistoric rock art sites, the Shroud of Turin and the Dead Sea Scrolls in the last few years. The development of high-precision dating (up to +/-2.0 per mille or +/-16 yr) in a number of gas and liquid scintillation facilities has been of similar importance (laboratories at Belfast (N.Ireland), Seattle (US), Heidelberg (Ger), Pretoria (S.Africa), Groningen (Netherlands), La Jolla (US), Waikato (NZ) and Arizona (US) are generally accepted to have demonstrated radiocarbon measurements at high levels of precision). The calibration research undertaken primarily at the Belfast and Seattle labs required that high levels of precision be obtained which has now resulted in the extensive calibration data now available. The development of small sample capabilities for LSC and Gas labs has likewise been an important development - samples as small as 100 mg are able to be dated to moderate precision on minigas counters (Kromer, 1994) with similar sample sizes needed using minivial technology in Liquid Scintillation Counting. The radiocarbon dating method remains arguably the most dependable and widely applied dating technique for the late Pleistocene and Holocene periods.

Materials that can be carbon-dated using current methods include:
# Charcoal, wood, twigs and seeds.
# Bone.
# Marine, estuarine and riverine shell.
# Leather.
# Peat
# Coprolites.
# Lake muds (gyttja) and sediments.
# Soil.
# Ice cores.
# Pollen.
# Hair.
# Pottery.
# Metal casting ores.
# Wall paintings and rock art works.
# Iron and meteorites.
# Avian eggshell.
# Corals and foraminifera.
# Speleothems.
# Tufa.
# Blood residues.
# Textiles and fabrics.
# Paper and parchment.
# Fish remains.
# Insect remains.
# Resins and glues.
# Antler and horn.
# Water.

rock art, metal casting ores, water? I'm pretty sure these weren't living, either.

A link from the site to http://www.eng-h.gov.uk/stoneh/start.htm
yields the following:
# A thorough reassessment of all existing radiocarbon dates was attempted.

# New samples were selected according to rigorous selection procedures.

# Radiocarbon dating was carried out on these samples, either using Liquid Scintillation Counting or Accelerator Mass Spectrometry.

# Rigorous quality control procedures at the dating laboratories ensured the scientific reliability of the measurements.

# Statistical analysis and calibration of the reliable results using the calibration and analysis program OxCal (v2.16) enabled us to model the chronology of Stonehenge.

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[Vagary]

Sorry, but just because you can date art, casting ores, and water doesn't mean you can date rocks:

• Rock art is usually made from vegetable (which are made of carbon) or mineral paint. Can you guess what mineral is used to make black?
• To make metal hot enough to cast you stick it in a fire, to make a fire you burn wood, wood is made of...?
• I'm not sure about carbon dating water, but there are similar dating methods.

However, you can uranium date rocks that contain no carbon much as the water is oxygen dated. Unfortunately, dating Stonehenge is still difficult.

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[Mordaximus]

It could have worked on Stargate in the context that it was presented in... since they did the carbon dating on the cover stones.

Common building materials of the period, such as brick, were comprised of mainly of mud and straw, both of which could be carbon dated. Of course if the cover stones were in fact a solid piece of rock then it may be a different story.

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[Theobon]

They carbon date the ink not the rock, the ink was alive. They can also carbon date many other items if you can determin what the initial conditions for the item was, like forged material.

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

The site was carbon dated by the packing that was used to hold the stones in position. When you put up a stone you do not simply put it in the ground, you use packing to hold it in position. This packing was made from carbon datable material.

The reason for axes is that Stonehenge was built at the cusp of the stone age and the bronze age. The ability to create Bronze allowed for the development of weaponary. Whoever developed it would be successful in war. It was the equivalent of the atom bomb. Axes were what allowed for a group to have the power to build Stonehenge.

Incidentally in Arthur and Stonehenge Emmett Sweeny states that the sword in the stone King Arthur legend dates from the start of the Bronze Age because the a sword is made from stone (ore) and an anvil (actually quite a few people eg Time Team have said the same).

Ed

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[rwise2112]

Well, you don't want to date the stones. Those existed long before anything was ever made with them. But you're right cardon dating won't work on rocks, for that you would use things like potassium or uranium if I remember correctly.

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[dubiousdave]

They've also found postholes full of carbon-rich remains of very large wooden poles which are believed to be the remains of an even older monument built prior to the megalith. That may be one of the ways they've used carbon dating to ascribe an age to a stone monument.

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[Gestahl]

You are correct, sir. The main method for dating rocks and minerals is K-Ar dating, which measures the decay of a very long-lived potassium isotope. The only problem is that accuracy is very hard to achieve with this. I think the amount of error with this method is in the several millions of years, and useless for measurements on the human time scale. But we can tell how old moon rocks and the like are...

Re:Erm, radio carbon dating huh?

[peter]

Here's the theory behind carbon dating:

-Carbon in the atmosphere is a mix of C12 and C14. C14 is unstable, so it's always decaying, but is replaced by nuclear processes caused by cosmic rays, etc.

-Anything that gets new carbon from the atmosphere all the time, and gets rid of old carbon (e.g. living things) will have a C12:C14 ratio that depends on the atmospheric ratio. (You're right that living things slightly prefer one of isotopes over the other, and that the ratio varied over time).

-If the thing stops refreshing its carbon from the atmosphere (e.g. by dieing), the C14 will decay. You can measure the C12:C14 ratio, and given the decay rate of C14, you can calculate how long ago the carbon in your sample was cut off from the atmosphere.

If you had a way to figure out what the initial C12:C14 ratio in the water was, you could figure out when the sample had been cut off. Depending on how well aerated the water was, the C12:C14 might not be the same as the atmosphere. You wouldn't be able to tell if there had been short intervals where your puddle (or whatever) was exposed to the air, but they would throw off your calculations.

There is a radioactive decay dating process for sea water, IIRC. Oxygen, I think. There's also potassium-argon dating, which I think is useful for volcanic rocks with pockets of air to trap the argon.

Stonehenge, where a man's a man...

[Halloween Jack]

...and the children dance

to the pipes of Pan!

That was a waste of my time

[Evil MarNuke]

I was expecting a detail artical with cost stuff, but what do I get? A short blurp about using laser to see a carving that was found in 1950!!

As impressive as the laser scanning is...

[weslocke]

I just wonder how long it is before employees are scanning their buttcheeks. /shrug

I think it says "Mom, in a spinning class!"

[japes]

I think it says "Mom, in a spinning class!"

Hurry up and Wait

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

Using state-of-the-art technology, scientists have laser scanned Stonehenge and found a detailed description of the monolithic structure carved on one of the stones.

However, the description was encoded using 128 bit public key (axe,axe,hammer,axe,dagger,dagger,axe,axe,dagger,d agger,hammer,axe,dagger,axe...)

With the current state of computing. It will take 10000 years and the energy of the Sun to decipher the carvings

Re:Hurry up and Wait

[__aafutm5472]

With the current state of computing. It will take 10000 years and the energy of the Sun to decipher the carvings

Not to mention the fact that it's against the DMCA.

Oh, wait, they're not in the US. Carry on...

Re:Hurry up and Wait

[DZign]

the carvings decoded spell '42'.

Re:Hurry up and Wait

[Ciggy]

And be illegal under the DMCA...

Other new images discovered

[sakusha]

I looked and I sure can't see any axe heads in those murky images.

However, I did see a fluffy bunny, a fire truck, and a hamburger patty. Maybe I'm just projecting.

Re:Other new images discovered

[hesiod]

> I looked and I sure can't see any

I looked and all I sam was a bok that said "www.stonehengelaserscan.org could not be found. check the name and try again."

Must be some crazy, ancient enigma.

Re:Other new images discovered

[hesiod]

> I looked and all I sam was a bok

Wow, stellar typing today, if I say so myself.

Of course, I meant "saw was a box." Still getting used to this Dvorak thing.

Spinal Tap in Reverse?

[Angram]

Perhaps it was supposed to be 18 inches instead of 18 feet. Someone must've gotten chewed out after that blunder.

Re:Spinal Tap in Reverse?

[Eccles]

But then the mighty monument of Stonehenge would be in extreme danger of being stomped on by a dwarf...

Re:Spinal Tap in Reverse?

[WinterSolstice]

(Terry Pratchett ref)
Must have been a B.S. Johnson design...

Perhaps the marks were simply "This End Up", and "Fragile" :) That might explain a few things!

-WS

What would the builders have thought of this?

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Stonehenge was probably the highest technology of its time. Anyone who builds an astronomical calculator is a nerd.

I imagine a Stonehenge engineer teleported into the present as feeling a warm glow of satisfaction that his work had lasted four thousand years, and having an intense desire to take apart the laser scanners to see how they work.

Re:What would the builders have thought of this?

[digitalhermit]

I imagine stonehenge was more the equivalent of a present day water works project such as a dam or sewer treatment plant, except that it was likely controlled by priests who, throughout history, have a major goal of perpetuating the priesthood. This is assuming that Stonehenge could have been used for practical purposes such as forecasting the proper crop planting time rather than just some gee-whiz gadgetry to keep the general populace in awe and in bondage.

Re:What would the builders have thought of this?

[wytcld]

priests who, throughout history, have a major goal of perpetuating the priesthood - some gee-whiz gadgetry to keep the general populace in awe and in bondage

There's a major difference between shamanic and priestly practices - check the anthropological literature. In all likelihood the Stonehenge builders were still a shamanic society. Shamanism is more about freedom than bondage. All cultural groups tend towards conformity - just as you are conforming with a certain image of what all spiritual practice is about in your statement. The role of the shaman has always been to see the world from outside the safe sphere of conventional points-of-view, to bravely go beyond, even at the expense of becoming exceedingly weird.

Priests, on the other hand, often seek to defend the conventional from the perceived threat of shamans, burning them as witches in our most stereotyped example. But the point is Northern Europe was largely shamanic, not priestly, until the Catholics came in roughly 1000 years back. And Northern Europe largely threw off the Catholics in favor of a more individual relation with whatever's real after not so many centuries of allowing those priests to officiate.

The British and American heritage of valuing individual freedom and conscience reflects the closeness of the shamanic past, and the undercurrents from it that still nourish our roots. So the very tradition from within which you're condemning the Stonehenge builders as "priests" owes quite a lot to those builders, and the shamans among them who quite likely encourage this cool architecture not to enslave, but to liberate.

Re:What would the builders have thought of this?

[digitalhermit]

Are you an art major? Don't mean to be facetious, but I got a lot of this during the dozen or so art courses I took in college. I can talk neo/psuedo-druidic philosophy with the best of them, but other courses in anthropology, religion, and world history sort of banished those ideas from my head. There's a strong, strong tendency to attribute noble and enlightened ideas to cultures that we only hear about from folktale or conjecture. We do this when we long for the pre-industrial, bucolic farmlands of our stories or when we discuss pre-Colombian Native American society as some Garden of Eden. In reality, life was rough. People died young from disease and war, lots of war. People worked all day and didn't have a lot of time for leisure.

So what about "shamanism" -- a word itself that's been so new-ageified and bandied about that it has lost its true meaning? Since there are no pre-Roman folks around laying claim to that mantle, we can only make guesses (informed, but still guesses) from contemporary spiritual heads, curers, or shamans to use your term. So take a look at the canonical examples from New Guinea tribes... Hmmm, no sense of individual freedoms there.. Not a whole bunch at least, since they're generally busy looking for food and on the move. And if you place any stock in your Joseph Campbell (I don't, truthfully), then there's not really any sense of "individual" in any of the tribal religions (and I mean tribal strictly in the anthropological sense). Why? The group is more important. It's only with the Industrial Revolution and in those societies that had one, that leisure time could be spent to develop the individual.

To distinguish priests from "shaman" is thus not really possible. The shaman/healer was the religious head and the doctor.

And yes I did check the literature. Since this subject has been a favorite pasttime of mine since high school fifteen years ago, I've amassed quite a bit of reference material.

Re:What would the builders have thought of this?

[paganizer]

Of course the movies, studies and documentaries done by the soviets on the Finnish druids just before they wiped them out could perhaps provide some illumination.

Re:What would the builders have thought of this?

[KillerBob]

He meant to create a distinction between a religion that's based on enslavement to practice, and one that's based on freedom. All archaeological and anecdotal evidence that exists about the druids indicates a great deal of freedom that's just not seen in most religions.

In other words, it's doubtful that Stonehenge was created to enslave the people. Most likely is the extant theory that it's a calendar/almanac. It can be used to predict solstice and equnox with a very great deal of accuracy, because the sun rising is visible between keystones in the henge only during the week preceding and following the event. It was probably used to determine when celebrations should be done, and when to plant/harvest crops.

Of course, in the absence of written records of its use, all we can do is speculate.

Re:What would the builders have thought of this?

[digitalhermit]

Then you'd be guilty of linking the Druid *priesthood* and people to Stonehenge. This is speculation only, as no evidence exists (outside of some new-age pseudo-histories) that the Druids had anything to do with the Henge. It is very likely meant to mark the solstice and served some practical purpose. This still doesn't change my supposition that a technological marvel could be used by an elite priesthood to keep the populace under some measure of control. Alas, there's not much archeological evidence about the druids at all, much less anything about the philosophical leanings of their religion, and anecdotal evidence isn't evidence so I'll ignore that.

This priestly control in itself is not a bad thing, mind you. But I tend to distrust closed institutions as a matter of course and the priesthood falls under that banner.

Re:What would the builders have thought of this?

[efflux]

but other courses in anthropology, religion, and world history sort of banished those ideas from my head.

Ha!! Margaret Mead's Coming of Age in Somoa promulgated just this sort of idyllic glorification of the past/unWestern civilazation that your so lambast! This books has only been the most influencial book in Anthropology since its inception. I agree that it's total bullshit, but you can drop you fucking pretenses you ass.

whats so high-tech about a laser

[category9]

photons aren't exactly mordern technology. maybe the software and hardware used was high tech, but not the lasers.

---
construct software
object oriented database solutions

Re:whats so high-tech about a laser

[iggymanz]

visible light photons in phase, at the nearly same frequency, in the same direction as a result of stimulated emission.....please do tell me what technology before the 1960's produced those.

Of course, I know a couple natural sources of laser radiation, but that's another story.

Re:9am CST..

[G4Outcast]

So the first thing you do as soon as you get to work is check Slashdot? The real world sounds like a happy place :0)

Not Axe Heads

[Samus]

Those aren't axe heads. Those are pictures of our alien creators beaming us down to earth from their ships. Duh!

Re:Not Axe Heads

[djh101010]

Well, I for one wecome our {thwack}

Re:Not Axe Heads

[pantherace]

Now that was a good use of a 'bronze age' axe if I ever saw one! :)

Are they...

[thoolihan]

18" tall?

-t

Demons and ruins

[genner]

The software their using to analyze the carvings is called Demon. Didn't several anime series start with the premise of unlocking the secrets of stonehedge with the power of a demon? Just a thought.

One of the inscriptions found

[matt-fu]

"Cthulhu was here"

Re:Cue the song...

[IOOOOOI]

Stonehenge! Where the sprits dwell, where the banshees live, and they do live well!

laser site down

[Spaham]

http://www.stonehengelaserscan.org/ doesn't work, returns : Bad Request (Invalid Hostname)

Carvings

[v_1matst]

Apparently the carvings say:

Bad Request (Invalid Hostname)

Re:Carvings

[Camel Pilot]

Whoaaa They were more advanced than was generally believed...

Re:Carvings

[Zak3056]

Whoaaa They were more advanced than was generally believed...

Advanced? With an NXDOMAIN response? Surely no civilization can be considered Advanced until it discovers SiteFinder... ;)

I know what it says!

[weeboo0104]

Remember...to...drink...your...Ovaltine...

"It's a crummy commercial....Son of a bitch!"

This is a clear Violation of the DMCA

[Grizzlysmit]

this is a device to unlock ancient secrets which clearly violates the DMCA

Old languages

[DJStealth]

You think any of those carvings are in the ancient languages of COBOL or Fortran?

It just shows

[Anonym1ty]

Isn't is amazing how the aliens who built stonehenge carved pictures on it knowing only modern man would be able to view them once he had discovered lasers.

Bridges... get your bridges right here

Re:It just shows

[Jerf]

discovered lasers.

nO no ON! aLiENS GAVE us the LASERS! MaKNind is too stoopid to invent LASERS on his own! LASERS is alien techONlogy! dON'T FALL PREY to the CABAL~!

and LASERS is nothing to th eEVLI of computeRs!

typedf quickly to minimize exposure to BRAIN BENDING RAYS!

(probably ought to post this anonymously but what the hell, I've got karma to burn on a joke that can be misinterpreted as a post by someone who means this... except if you still think I mean it after this paragraph, it's you who should be modded down...)

Re:It just shows

[Tenebrious1]

Isn't is amazing how the aliens who built stonehenge carved pictures on it knowing only modern man would be able to view them once he had discovered lasers.

You missed the last bit- the pictures depict how to create an interstellar communicator to contact the aliens to let them know we've reached a level of technology where they can start trade with us...

Re:It just shows

[Anonym1ty]

I said Discovered not invented!

RMFC before you post :P

This flame was meant in good fun, I don't hate you

Re:It just shows

[Jerf]

Please don't hate me, my brain was bENt. rAYS SEEPED THROUGH MY HAT!!!!. ;-)

writing found..

[Barkmullz]

CTHULHU FHTAGN

Google cache with pix

[HisMother]

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:BAqUaiHp3yAJ: www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART18464.html+s tonehenge+laser+scan&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Found

[tarsi210]

Found on a side of the stones:

If you can read this, you're too close.

Chisel?

[brakk]

You think aliens use chisels?

Already revealed by Institute of Druidic Tech

[jbum]

Stonehenge was revealed years ago to be a primitive mainframe computer by the good Dr. F. E. Tunalu at the Institute of Druidic Technology.

See his article on Hyperborean Mainframes

You will also enjoy the exhibits of flint-mice and bronze mouse-pads.

mirrored (sort of)

[Lust]

main site is down, but more images / text
here.

unlocking the secrets?

[CitznFish]

finding 2 carvings of axeheads does not equal unlocking the secrest of stonehenge.

Re:Hmm...

[hesiod]

> oh hey, animations, that'll probably be cool,

There's an idea... maybe the original carvings are each slightly different from each other so you could stand in the middle, spin around real fast and watch the "animation..." uh.. of an axe turning into a mushroom or something like that.

Re:[Blank Stripped]Google cache with pix

[derubergeek]

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:BAqUaiHp3yAJ: www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART18464.html+s tonehenge+laser+scan&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Re:Nice try, troll...

[glenebob]

What's wrong with you? We all have cats!

carhenge site is up and running

[fluid_amp]

Hommage to Stonehenge (tongue-in-cheek) check out http://www.carhenge.com

Re:Where the demons DWELL

[Thing 1]

Do you have that Steve Miller song "Big Ol' Jet Had a Light On?"

Yeah, it's over there next to Madonna's "Dress you up in nylons."

Don't forget Mr. Mister's "Carry a Laser".

And who could forget Jimi Hendrix's "'Scuse Me While I Kiss This Guy" (there was actually a book by that name, about mis-heard lyrics).

Using my generator

[stud9920]

Middle Neolitic, era, dead at 5000

I just heard some sad news on talk radio - historical era Middle Neolitic was found dead in Stonehenge this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to world history. Truly an European icon.

Feel free to generate *lithic is dying using the link in my sig.

Re:Using my generator

[Puppet Master]

Was he any kin to "BSD"?

Didn't you hear?

[Dr. Mojura]

The riddle's already been solved!

First furniture porn, now ancient stone porn... what's next?

no really... what's next? I want in!!

just makes you wonder...

[56ksucks]

... what would give someone the idea to scan something like this with a 3D laser scanner? Were they sitting around one day looking at stone hinge thinking, hey, we got this cool new 3D laser scanner, let's point it at that rock over there and see what happens... well lookie there.. someone done carved little axes in this rock.

Just makes you wonder what would give them the idea that this might come back with results.

-----

Re:just makes you wonder...

[KillerBob]

They were probably looking to create an exact 3D model of Stonehenge in a computer. Or to study how it could have been built with bronze age technology. I doubt they were looking for these kinds of results, at least.

One of the things I'm learning in my archaeology class is that very rarely do people actually find what they think they're going to find. They'll probably find stuff that answers the question they set out to answer, but it'll not be what they're expecting.

Oh yeah... and in order to get a Masters degree or greater, an archaeologist needs to contribute something original to the science. You'd be surprised at the number of ideas that people will come up with for their Masters Thesis in that light. (There be a reason my major is Philosophy and my declared minor is Languages, sir....)

Re:just makes you wonder...

[Urox]

There already is one:

Prehistoric Graffiti?

[MonkeyCookie]

Great, so it's a bunch of graffiti put there centuries later by a bunch of Celtic misfit teenagers.

Those little punks!

hmmm..

[kaoshin]

So the carving reads "The page cannot be found"?

Dibs on the box

[HiggsBison]

I now have an image of Stonehenge arriving in huge flatpacks with the ancient rune of "Ikea" stamped on them.

Your kids got the box from the last big stone, now it's my kids' turn.

(Yes, I stole that one from the Farside where the rocket scientists are argueing about the cardboard box from a Saturn V.)

Gate to Hades

[planckscale]

Don't they know that if they mess with those stones any more, or happen to move any of them, the gate to hades will open allowing all the demons to escape?!!?!?

The secret is...

[Tablizer]

it is a giant Vagina

kidding right?

[aimew]

Wow - not!

This looks more like a desperate search for research funds. I can almost see the write-up:

"ET has axe fetish, leaves clues at Stonehenge."

What an amazing bunch of, well, nothing...

Oh, wait, maybe this'll turn out to be Martian fossils? Or maybe Bigfoot's foot-prints?

Maybe it's just the marks left by whatever means they moved the stones by... ?

Unbelievable.

Maybe I need a better Rx?

Or "cult object"...

[leonbrooks]

...like this one.

Errr...

[BrokenHalo]

If I recall correctly, Stonehenge was constructed long before the druids came into existence.