Slashdot Mirror
Take Back Your Time!
pycnanthemum writes "Today is national Take Back Your Time Day. Boston.com has a story about it, it's a Seattle-based movement to get overworked Americans to value the non-material parts of their lives. When I read the article I thought of a lot of techies I know."
"You took 4 minutes of my life and I want them baaaaaack!! ....oh I'd only waste them anyway."
I avoid being needed at 3:00AM. I've been there before. I've had the VPN software installed on my own computer so I could fix someone else's bugs in the middle of the night.
I have a Palm and a cell phone, but they are mine. Work doesn't have the cell number, nor will they. I no longer have the VPN setup on my computer.
I've refused to work at all hours and on my own time, and it has prevented me from advancing to a position that requires it. That is a feature, not a bug. I know in these days it is hard to be picky, and if I was faced with the prospect of carrying a pager or being unemployed, I'd suck it up, but I would start looking elsewhere.
I work with way too many people who see working as a programmer as a gateway into management. They don't understand why I don't want to "advance" (advance by their definition). It completely baffles them that I'd rather be happy than make more money.
Life is tradeoffs. If the coolest opportunity came round, but it required me to be on call now and then, I'd take it. Likewise, I'd rather not make the extra few thousand a year, but have my time be mine.
Time is an abstract concept. It cannot be taken back.
Also, time is linear.
Also, time is not the 4th dimension, unless you're watching Dr. Who.
graspee
Interesting. Just yesterday i was fuming about how i get handed stuff to do at exactly the moment it is time for me to leave.
On average i put in 2-5 hours a week at the end of the day off the clock. I know i should raise a fit, but i don't.
Damn.
do() || do_not();
And I'll take it back when my boss and the schedule say I can!
Karma: Marginal (mostly due to the border around the website)
At this point we have the technology and know-how to reduce work to a quarter or less, with likely more production. Some serious social change is needed to make this happen--but it will.
-Libertarian secular transhumanist
That very episode was on last nigh... Oops, does watching Simpsons count as wasting time?
"I'm not impatient. I just hate waiting." - My Dad
"It leads to growing neglect and abuse of pets. " Apparently Fluffy cares, and she's gonna break out the can on your pants the next time you VNC into the office.
That's just letting the terrorists win...isn't it?
Since the clocks go back this weekend for a lot of us I thought the title was about a movement to stop daylight savings times clock switching. I don't mind going back an hour now... extra sleep is fine, but I always hated losing one back in spring.
Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!
Quit surfing the web all day at work and at home. You rarely learn anything. In fact, you're rarely even truly entertained!
Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
The dearth of recreational and family time in America is nothing new, although work hours have been increasing decade by decade leading to mini 'revolts' like this. However, who actually took your time away in the first place? You did. If you let yourself be conned into working 80 hour weeks, that was your call.
"But I won't be able to afford the mortgage on my $500,000 home!" many will cry. A lot of people think it's some sort of given that they must have a large house, 2.4 children, a Lexus and an SUV parked outside. Not so! A lot of people have escaped from the 'rat race' to start farms out in the boonies, backpack around the world, or live as a family out on the ocean waves.
Living in a 60-80 hour workweek society is your choice, and if you're too blinkered to do something about improving the quality of your life, fine.. but it's YOUR CALL!
Web Hosting Reviews
Life was great!!
Then, I get a new boss. Classic 'Type A' personality. Worked 60+ hours a week, claimed it took her 40 hours a week to read her email.
Long story short, she fired me. Claimed I couldn't do the job that I had been doing for over nine years.
Former coworkers basically said she couldn't handle the fact that she worked 60+ hours a week, and I worked 32 to 36 hours a week...
So, try this at your own risk!
I always think about what it would be like to live somewhere in the carribean working on cars or something.
Don't get me wrong, I love my techie job. But I tend to dislike the heavy hours that come with it. Everytime time we get a three day week-end I feel so much more relaxed. Just 1 more day makes a world of a difference. Everything seems to go at a slower rate, things are more enjoyable when you take your time.
Why am I busting my ass like that? For money or for myself?
That's the "Religion Of Peace" for ya.
Value the non-material parts of your life: Have kids. Well...if you're the right kinda person to have kids that is. I've never felt more moved on a genetic, propagation of the family name level, then when I held my boys for the first time. It's really an indescribable feeling. And after that, you learn a LOT of the $hit you thought was important isn't.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Who says that work can't be non-material? What if you really do enjoy your job, as I'm sure a lot of the techies you know do? Sure, perhaps you may enjoy it less because you get paid for it, but that will depend on the work environment.
Obviously this 'movement' (such an over-used term) has some good intentions--neglecting family and self are problems when you're overworked--but the mindset that employment = slavery is getting hackneyed. I thought we grew out of that idea of "despise The Man" after high school.
Oh, but wait, this is Slashdot.
I don't know about y'all, but I'm so sick of various days and weeks and months being devoted to all this random crap. In this case it is entirely ironic because everyone's going to be 'taking back their time' rather than doing what they really want to do. Some people actually like working. It's just a bunch of people deciding that they know what you should really be spending your time doing.
Maybe partying will help...
Seems there was this clause in my contract concerning ownership of my soul...
"dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
I read the article and while it seemed to be all happy happy it was really just a cover for promoting socialism. Look at their goals : national health care, mandatory 4 week vacation, no mandatory overtime. This is just socialism. If you want to "take back your time" then spend less and live below your means. Being socialists of course they did not want to touch the number one reason that people work more hours and that families have to be dual income : taxes!. Most people work several months a year just to pay for bloated government.
Stuart Eichert
Take back time from whom? We're all at work and reading slashdot. Seriously, can life get any more leisurely? Hurry up and mod this 0. I've got a 6 zero streak running here...... and that once again proves just how much time I have. If you give me a one I'll break out the quad laser, the bullet is enormous there is no escaping.
60 percent of the time, my comments are right everytime.
A lot of verbage just to sell a book and make money.
Someone call me the WAAAAAAAAAAAMBulance please.
20 Credit hours this semester, fall of my senior year in college.
I signed up for 1700+ hours for Americorps.
My fiance and I are planning a Spring 05 wedding.
I run a small IT consulting company.
Free time = 0
Rewards = Huge.
I have absolutely NO ONE to complain to but myself. If I want more time, I make more time. Same thing for everyone else. No one is making you work the job you are at. If you don't like the terms, renegotiate! If you don't like the job, quit. Not that simple because the cost of living is too high where you live? Move. Don't want to move because you like your nice house and nice cars and all that jazz? THEN KEEP WORKING.
No one is forced to work the coal mines 60 hours a week...
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
Take your sunglasses off. The "Money is your god" subliminal message won't work if you have them on.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
Oh this is just too funny. I gave notice 5 weeks ago that today would be my last day on the job, because I didn't want to be on call any more. I didn't know people were going to turn it into a movement! Timing is everything I guess. So yes Virginia, you can take back your time. I'm going to take a few months off, write some Open Source software I've been putting off, and travel around Europe for a month. And get to spend more time with family and friends. See this isn't that absurd. You just have to do without the expensive apartment, new computer hardware, and dinner at Nobu.
Try taking back your time in Columbus OH. You will discover very little to do that doesn't cost money as some form of paid entertainment. Can't just go to the beach -- unless you count driving 2 hrs to lake erie... mmm brown water!
stuff |
yes, but most of the time it is THIS
So Americans work nine more weeks than Europeans. America's also more successful than the EU and those who choose to work hard in America enjoy a higher standard of living.
Coincidence? I think not.
This article/press release/petition is a borderline socialist puff-piece. Move along, nothing to see here.
Glad to see this is moving along...
:)
A while back I got fed up, and got rid of my cellphone. That means alot less stress, even more then you'd expect. First, no more phone to keep track of, no more incoming calls, no more calling people when I don't really need to. I do my calls all at once. Oh and I save a forune by not having long distance on the landline (screened, never answeered) and using a nice 3c/min calling card. Anyone worth talking to can email me. And anyone I like can IM me (whitelist only of course).
I also tweaked all my OSX Mail filters to be very aggressive, and the mail to only check once every hour. Again, far less interuptions.
And more and more I'm seeing people I know also burn-out completely on the "time saving technology" and trash it all. And then they start to declutter the rest of their lives too, but that's for another subject...
Life has improved alot since the real-time email and cellphone days
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
This movement touches on one of my central concerns. People are urged -- even required -- to spend more and more time at work.
Not only does this take a toll on life outside of work, it exacts a price at work. Exhaustion increases the likelihood of making mistakes. Perhaps more importantly, it also limits our ability to learn newer and better ways of doing things. It also affects our ability to discover new things.
As far as I can tell, this trend began during the 1970s and accelerated to the present day. What's interesting to me is the fact that the rate of productivity growth -- high in the quarter century after WWII -- dropped precipitously in the 1970s. This rate stayed low until the dot com bubble in the 1990s when productivity apparently soared. Now we're busy restating that productivity burst -- downwards.
Summing up, exhaustion carries a real price not only for society as a whole, but also possibly for business in particular.
"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- B. Franklin
It is unfortunate that the web site complains about how we work more hours than other Western nations but fails to mention that we produce the greatest amount of technological, scientific, etc. innovations of any nation no the planet. Not that working less is bad. Rather, we need to not be delluded into thinking that working less is nothing 100% pure good. The gains of working longer are more subtle. By being more industrious and creating more innovations, we speed up the increase in the standard of living via invention and mass production. By working less we have more spare time but also less progress. Taking it to the extreme, the idea that we should be able to sit on our butts most of the time doing nothing productive for maintaining our lives while still have a good and growing standard of living is demanding a fantasy devoid of any objective reality.
So yes, we work more than the medival workers as the web site says, but we are also progressing technology, industry, science, etc. and thus our standard of living many times faster than they ever did.
"The State is that great fiction by which everyone lives at the expense of everyone else." -Frederic Bastiat.
i don't have time to take back my time....
sheesh.. 12 minutes a day to talk to your wife? I know some guys who would love it if that is all they had to do..
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
I went from a 80 hour work week to a 50 hour work week and from a place I really didn't like to the number one location on my list.
......
I used to work for a semi-conductor manufacturer in Devlopement (no hints--but its product was the P4) and they were nice enough to hire me staright outta grad school. Then they were nice enough to expect stupifying hours, no weekends and 24 hours on call. But it paid my internet bills to
Find a job!
But it took a lot of persistance and didn't happen overnight. I spent roughly 16 months send out app after app, resume after resume, searching and searching for the right job. And then it happened.
Benifits:
No more anti-depresents
No more anxiety medication
Weekends off
Evenings off
Hair growing back
Threw pager in trash (ok so I turned it in when I left)
Downside:
None
Moral of story--if you don't like it CHANGE.
Soon enough companies figure out that they are losing their best people becuase of stress and overwork. But Why wait yourself--you can find an eqaul paying job with less stress. It takes only time and persistance.
Cthulhu for president!
I feel for you, as I've had those same bosses that, even in technical positions, don't understand the difference between just sitting in your office, pulling a George Costanza, and sitting in your office a few less hours per week because you do good work.
On the flip side, there are those that claim they are working at home, or work short weeks, that are basically trying their best to just get out of work, and then we have the "no one can work at home" statement by the manager after someone brings attention to him or her self. Sheesh, just fire the people that don't respond to their emails in a timely manner, or answer the phone, for goodness sakes!
I am paid hourly, so if I work from home(I never do) I will bill those hours. My co-workers were offered salary and they took it. They told me, "Rudy, just work hard and one day, you'll be salary like me."....
Now, I work M-F about 45-50 hours a week. They work nights and weekends. Way more that 50 hours per week. Probably near 70. I hear about them going home and logging into VPN and working from 18:00 till 23:00.
Oh yea, with my over time, I make more than they do.
Me, on salary...Oh Hell no!
What, me Tweet?
Sorry. I just get cranky when I don't get enough sleep.
Rather than telling us ahead of time, the Boston Globe informs us of this event on the day it is to occur.
To add insult to injury, Slashdot picks up the story, and runs it at about 3:00pm Eastern time, so that we east coasters have already put in the days work by the time we find out about it.
With a little advanced warning, maybe some of us would have been able to attend some of these events, or at a minimum, skipped work today on principle.
I'd like to see a "Slashdot Skip-Day," like back in high school. Watch the world grind to a halt when those of us that keep it running take a day off simultaneously!
(Actually, if we've all been doing our jobs correctly, everything would work fine in our absence... That's kind of scary too. Back to work I go...)
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
mitch
A peer in the industry told me he avoids working at home by not having an Internet connection there. I'm seriously considering following his lead.
What ultimately decided me was finding myself envious of the guy serving burgers at McD's. (If you don't understand why, you haven't seen battle yet. Or at least not enough of it.)
I am just finishing grad school. Some people assumed that I went because I had aspirations of being a professor. The more cynical people suggest that I went to avoid the real world.
In either case, I just want to say that grad school is a great way to take back your time. In computer science at least, they will basically pay you a reasonable salary to go to grad school (plus great benefits). More importantly for me, grad school has been a lot less work than most jobs. You also get to do interesting stuff rather adding feature bloat to the new widget for the local megacorp. Strangely enough, even though this is easy living, it is also very "prestigious" for some reason.
Once you are done, you are also eligible for a lot more jobs. I would suggest avoiding tenure-track professor jobs if you are interested in your time. But you can afford to be selective in finding a job since you are qualified for so many more jobs.
I will say that grad school is not necessarily the best way to get rich. If that is your goal then you may want to choose some other path. Of course, you could lose your money anyway. One nice thing about education is that you can't lose your it (other than through brain injury).
Also, I'm not saying there isn't hard work involved. But you are basically in control. You mostly set your own hours. And you can find (or at least look for) the work that motivates you.
Never underestimate the power of fiber.
it's all about yOUR motives/intentions/behaviours. everything takes some time.
if you're up to no good, you'd best hurry, because the lights are coming up now.
Type-A management. These people see a group of employees working 40-hour weeks and getting all their work done, and to their overheated little minds, it seems inefficient.
So they cut staff. If the work is still getting done on time, they cut more. Then, when deadlines start getting missed, they say things along the lines of, "well, the work still needs to be done. We all need to pitch in."
Then you get employees working 50-60 hour weeks to meet the deadlines. Then the boss gets a huge bonus for cutting costs and making the business line more efficient, and then goes on to "improve" another business line.
The only solution is to shoot them all (kidding! I'm just kidding! But not by much)
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
this is shocking and oddly funny at the same time
Prosperity and success aren't the same thing.
Defecation occurs.
...by adding this to your /etc/hosts file:
0.0.0.0 slashdot.org
leading to loads of free time, so much so I even have time to give out to others. Based upon this groundbreaking research, I am at the height of my efficiency. In fact I wrote this comment on November 1st 2003 by my calendar.
Speaking of overworked people...
After all the layoffs of recent years, the remaining workers have to work a lot harder to keep things going. It would be nice if there were more part-time tech jobs or if job sharing were allowed. That would help in two ways: 1) there would be more jobs to go around and 2) there would be less stress.
I for one would like to work 20 - 25 hours per week. That's really all I need to do to provide all my needs and even a few goodies. But in my experience tech companies (and managers) find this concept foriegn if not outright bizarre.
"You mean you want to work less hours?!"
"Yep, that's right"
"But you won't make as much money."
"So, I can make all the money I need in 20 hours per week. Why work more?"
"But, but..."
Hey you weren't supposed to tell anyone that I wasn't actually comming in every Friday... Crap now I have to find a new way not to go to work on Fridays.
...at about 2:00 AM, Daylight Savings Time ends and I get to take a whole hour back from my cruel corporate masters.
Of course, my cruel infant masters are still going to wake me up after ten hours of sleep no matter what the clock says.
We were on it... back in 1998! Keep the dream alive! http://web.archive.org/web/19990128013428/www.imst rat.com/takeback/main.htm
Has anyone else read the book Faster by James Gleick? It's a really interesting study on how, as a group, our idea of time has been modified in recent years. It seems as if the pace of everything has gotten "faster, quicker, more efficient" and yet, at the same time we should be reaping the rewards of all this efficiency with more free time, which obviously hasn't materialized.
Anyway, the book is really good and I recommend it (in addition to most of Gleick's other stuff.) It explores all the different aspects of how we treat time management in the modern world. For example, take the case of someone buying a complicated PDA or other gadget and then spending a whole lot of time configuring it, wrestling with sync software, entering all their contacts into the device, keeping batteries charged, etc. -- when their old method (probably a little black book or rolodex) took a lot less effort when you sum everything up. And yet, they feel like they're saving time. This is just one type of example that the book tries to delve into, and I'm afraid I haven't done it justice. The book was a very pleasant read and makes you think about a lot of things we do in the "modern age" (whatever that is.)
". . . it's a Seattle-based movement to get overworked Americans to value the non-material parts of their lives."
This statement makes it seem that we overwork so that we can have an abundance of material wealth. Sorry, wrong. Maybe I'm alone in this but I work my ass off just to make ends meet.
Could it be that we are being forced into being work-a-holics due to corporate greed?
My mother never worked and we never went without. How many could survive well on a single income now? Not many I would think.
So ask yourself; Is there less wealth in the world now than say in the fifties and sixties or are fewer people taking a bigger piece of the pie?
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
become a subcontractor. you get all the benifits of a normal employee only they can't make you work more then 40 hours without paying more money ^_^ it works great.
Work hard, play hard. Americans need to get over being so god damned uptight about everything. We have forgotten how to kick back and have fun. Adults don't have to be stodgy.
Stress is for work, laughter is for the rest of the time.
I misread the URL for the "official handbook" as "sniveling.net" You can call yourself simpleliving, but I think my name for you is far more appropriate.
What has this got to do with the price of rice in China?
...Buy less shit, then you don't have to work as much to pay for your useless shit. How difficult is this? Sell that stupid fucking SUV. Throw out your goddamned cellphones/PDA's/pagers. Turn off the fucking TV and disconnect cable. Move into a reasonably sized house. Don't make an event out of shopping. Jesus, and those are just a few things off the top of my head. Americans seem to think that they are *entitled* to a ridiculously high standard of living. Well, they aren't. But they're gonna keep striving for more and more shiny shit, working themselves to death along the way. Me? I've already done all of those things I mentioned above and more and I'll be retired by the time I'm 35.
Obviously, every human behavior involves some choice.
If put a gun to your head and shout march, you still have the choice of risking death to stop me.
Lots of choices muddier than that but this hardly proves that there are no problems involved. Lots of systems seduce rather intimidate but they still have some pretty negative consequences. Heroin addicts make their choices but it seems reasonable to call on them to stop despite this.
Remember, a $500,000 house in Silicone Valley would be a one-bed room condo.
You still have One More Hour to Drink!!
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If you ask me, timeday.org looks more like a marketing vehicle for a $15 paperback than an organization concerned about me spending too much time behind a desk... Pitiful...
I don't care what who expects me to spend 60 hrs at work. _I_ manage my time and _I_ decide my priorities. I always put in my 40 hours...and I don't miss deadlines. So, I may not get an "effort-based" (time-based) bonus...but I have happy bosses and I don't miss a minute more than I have to with my family. You can be flexible and help out when things come up without spending more time away from home. You just have to work effectively and manage expectations...
In Arizona, we...
(1) Don't screw around with the clocks,
(2) Don't screw around with the Second Amendment
(3) Know how to pronounce KaliFONE-ya correctly (we just DON'T!)
Affluenza
Makes many of the same excellent points as Overspent American
Rank Presidents by th
Ask the millions of unemployed about their opinions on "overworking". I'm sure they'd be glad for ANY work.
In this economy not too many people can go up to their boss and declare they are going to work less just because they feel like it. Can you afford to do this?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Also, time is not the 4th dimension, unless you're watching Dr. Who. So true. If I have a box that's 6x6x6 inches, how much time does it have? Can you build a box that has 6 inches of time? Objects in a 2 dimentional world can still have time, so does time then become the 3rd dimention? Time is the change in properties of an object, not a property of the object.
"That's so plausible, I can't believe it!" - Leela
The article didn't point out that this was due to the HUGE number of holidays the Europeans have.
All the food, wine and beer over there tastes better and most of the people you meet aren't self-involved assholes like they are here. You can talk about our "Higher standard of living" all you want to, but I'd have to contest the term "living". We're not living here in America. We're just keeping busy while waiting to die.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Ticking away the moments that make up the dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain
You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today
And then one day you find that ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun
And you run and run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
And racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death
Every year is getting shorter, never seem to find the time
Plans that either come to naught or a half page of scribbled lines
Hanging on in a quiet desperation is the English way
The time is gone the song is over, thought i'd something more to say
Your time belongs to you, and it is up to you to decide what to do with it. If you don't like working 60 hours a week, then find another job that requires fewer hours, or get a part time job.
I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that they "need" a big house and a big SUV, then end up working like slaves to support their expensive material possessions. In reality, this "need" is self-imposed. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to work like a dog. Slavery was abolished in the US in the 19th century.
Since I'm unemployed ( and have been so since 2001) I can't really get behind it this year.
Here's a benefit of doing contract work for the government (at least in some agencies): No overtime. It's not allowed unless approved ahead of time and they have to be REALLY convinced that it's necessary. I haven't worked more than 40 hours in a week in two years. And oddly enough I still get all my work done in a timely manner.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
A lot of people in the US don't realize how we benefit from working our longer hours. Try getting a phone in Italy, it'll take you a month and a half if you grease some palms. Want to go out to dinner? Sorry, none of the restaurants open until the families that own them have eaten usually after 7pm. The conveniences that we live with, the world power that we are is due in no small part to the extra hours that we as a nation work.
Nope.
According to pretty much every state's Alcohol Beverage Control Department (name may vary from state to state), bars close at 1:59 AM, NOT 2:00 AM, for this very reason. Technically, the bars close at 1:59:59 AM. The instant it hits 2:00 AM, they have already been closed. Which is why, by the way, a lot of bartenders yell at you to finish your drinks around 1:57. If you're still around at the stroke of 2, technically you and they are breaking the law.
Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
... That there is no middle ground. I can choose to do the stuff I enjoy, but way too much of it, or I can work a McJob at 40 hours a week.
That is about as much choice in the matter I have, jobs that are intelectually stimulating AND less than 45 hours in the average week are extremely hard to come by. So yes I have choice, but I would like an option that doesn't suck, that is what this movement is about.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Jeez people, quit reproducing already!
And after that, you learn a LOT of the $hit you thought was important isn't.
You are so on the money here, especially with the dollar sign. Having children just makes people greedy and makes them forget about their principles. Look at everyone who has ever sold out, they most likely have children! It's always in the name of trying to provide a good life for their kids that people forget their ethical responsibilities and do everything they can to bring in money.
Blah, if you really value your integrity, don't have children. If you're a sell-out, conformist dirtbag, have children. Having children IS selling out! Keep the penis out of the vagina.
No attachments.. Even the yoga masters will tell you this.
See my other post about the virtues of being a Virginal UNIX Programmer.
No offense intended towards the guy I'm replying to here. We've already lost him, there's nothing he can do about that. The power of the dark side is strong, and we should be so harsh to judge those who have fallen to it.
#!/
Overrated is stupid. "Not funny", perhaps, but overrated -- no. The whole point of the post was a joke on "make your time".
sheesh, just because it's AYB doesn't mean it lacks wisdom or humor.
-l
Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
I'm working 40-50 hours a week, with 10 days of paid time off per year. That includes Days I Had The Flu (2), Days My Car Didnt Work (3). This would also include days I had to go to court for speeding tickets recieved while trying not to be late (0), but I just dont go to court. It would piss me off too much to think I could have saved that day for vacation. There are 2 months left in the year to take a vacation now, and since I left early one friday to beat the traffic (mistakenly, traffic was worse) I now have 4 1/2 days of vacation left after taking none.
I used to enjoy going on expeditions that would span months: kayaking, canoeing, hiking, biking, rock climbing, you name it. Now that I work all the time, I've spent a total of 2 days in the wilderness this entire year (illegal canoe trip on a polluted Illinois river). I'm completely burned out, have little interest in writing software anymore and have a bad case of insomnia.
All I have to say is you don't see people going postal too often in Canada. Or any other country for that matter.
TallGreen CMS hosting
This is just one of the main differences between Europe and the U.S. Most Europeans want to have a good, enjoyable life, accepting that that usually means makin a lil less money and not bein able to buy as much stuff. On other side many Americans want to make as money as they can, and many dont value family life and simply free time as much. For example in Europe its very unusual to have more than one job, while the average american prolly has bout two jobs.
And as I think of it...I don't really try this DST thing with the extra hour of drinking here (as opposed to when I lived in other states)...there are plenty of bars that serve virtually 24/7.
And I still have to laugh when people ask me if I ever want to leave here...hahaha.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
although I'm a programmer and I get to do what I love for a living. I try not to take it too serious. All these so called advancements have done jack shit for the over all happiness of people. If anything, it's decreased it. I think our ancestor's were smart enough to realize the endless pursuit of novel technology isn't always beneficial. And perhaps they didn't bother to invent the computer earlier because it was more important for them to be with their families. Modern or so called "Modern" humans like to justify this endless trap we've created for ourselves called the rat race, by calling our ancestor's barbaric or primitive. Get real, they were smart enough to survive and spawn a race of individuals, who eventually forgot everything they tried to teach. So all in all, we are the stupid ones getting caught up in a race to no where.
I agree with this notion entirely... I took 4 months off work last year. I gave my last client 4 months notice before I left and they begged me to stay on for another month when it was time for me to leave. I said sure but I would only work 2 days a week.
During those 4 months I took off, I left chilly Ottawa in December and visited some friends in California for about 3 weeks and spent some time re-evaluating what I wanted out of life. I've been through work burnout a couple of times and I promised myself that I wouldn't let it happen again after I had a relationship fail as a result of it.
As for working for free, I don't agree with it. You are paid for a 37.5 hour workweek or whatever you sign for when you get hired. Any extra time you do should be rewarded somehow (and not with the promise of keeping your job either) because that is time taken away from your personal life.
I have some friends at Accenture who are fed the whole "Up or Out" crap speech at their town hall meetings. After putting in 60+ hour work weeks, for months, they were given a speech on how things have been going well but they really needed people to sacrifice their time at home to make the project succeed.
My friend then told me that several of her teammates were in tears because their family life was already suffering enough and then they were told that they need to sacrifice more (without pay of course). My friend is almost done the project she is working on there and then she is leaving because she doesn't believe in their attitude that family is last on the priority list.
Some people have noted though that it is your choice to work the 60+ hour work weeks. And someone mentioned that working for a workaholic who doesn't have kids or good friends is tough as well because they expect you to do the same. I agree, I've been there and you are made to feel guilty if you leave at 4:00pm even though you showed up before everyone else (7:00am) I used to get comments about "banker's hours" but I told them that I was at work while they were crawling out of bed.
Hopefully the article will turn on a couple of lightbulbs in peoples heads and make the world a better place because they will spend some more time with the people they love (and who love and need them in return).
Have a good weekend folks.
Hyperhyper
People are working these long hours because they want two (or more) SUV's, the vacation house, the boat, the personal water craft, blah blah blah.
-as wasting time by reading a Slashdot story about wasting time, I'd imagine... ;)
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
I had a boss that denied me a bonus because he thought I didn?t ?Live up to expectations?; so I started calling him at home every night I got a call. When he finally decided I might be exceeding theses ?requirements? I quit because I had another job opportunity. It took 2 people to replace me and both made more than I did. I heard the parent company fired my boss and everyone above him
The moon belongs to everyone
The best things in life are free,
The stars belong to everyone
They gleam there for you and me.
The flowers in Spring,
The robins that sing,
The sunbeams that shine
They're yours,
They're mine!
And love can come to everyone,
The best things in life are free.
Test 1 2 3 4
I was hired to do hardware installs, lackey box-carrying work, but for almost a year I've been doing desktop support for a major financial institution. I'm still getting paid for the lackey work ($12/hr), but salary surveys (and common ethics) put my value at about $40-$45K/year, that's $20K more than what I make. I just found out that my company makes $40/hr for me to be onsite, and much more for weekends and nights that I sometimes work.
Oh well, I'm glad I do Macintosh stuff because this morning I got a job that'll start me of at $40K, they insisted that I take $40K, and told me that they'd give me a raise to their last employee's level (about $45K) if I last for six months.
Screw contracting companies!
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
You can use money to buy insurance.
Why do people always talk about pay and benefits as though they were orthogonal? Getting benefits is just like getting more money, except you don't get to choose how to spend it.
Me, I ask for more money, and I use that money to buy the health insurance of my choice. The insurance isn't deductible, of course, which means that it costs a bit more, but it's more than worth it since I get to choose my own (inexpensive) plan rather than my company's needlessly-costly one. And, if I do lose my job, I'll still be insured.
When I tell people this, they look at me like I'm from another planet. What am I missing?
While the sentiment of the movement behind this article makes much sense, I just don't think it is practical in a free market system.
Free markets are all about competition. The pressure to remain competitive by getting more for less in all aspects of business squeezes everyone...management, employees, and the entire supply chain...to capture and sustain market share. If legislative measures attempt to "take back employees' time", businesses will have no other recourse but to continue the pursuit of a competitive edge through other means.
In a business world where unemployment has risen to moderately uncomfortable levels (especially in the tech sector), the economy is recovering only through measures that do not create additional jobs, and trends toward international outsourcing of business functions are increasing...drawing a line in the sand will only result in businesses being forced to look beyond the US workforce to carry on. As long as there is a pool of workers who will do *anything* just to have a job (and those people will always exist), things cannot, and will not change.
Let's face it, the modern era workforce is depreciable capital in the same way buildings and machinery were in the industrial age. You buy it, beat it, break it, all with the firm understanding that someday you must replace it.
I think this is what is meant by the phrase, "victims of their own success".
I love free markets and the innovation brought about by competition, but to get the good, you must willingly accept the bad. It's a trade off.
If you value free time and the opportunity to do your own things in your own way or to be with your family/friends more than having a bigger car/house this development is not good. If you like your work and just HAVE to have this huge SUV to impress your neighbours, don't mind to be stressed till you break down and think material wealth is everything, then nothing is wrong. But at least, give people a chance to choose what they want, more time for themselves or just more money.
Personally, I would choose for time.
(I live in the Netherlands (!= Holland),so i work 40 hours/week. Even that is too much sometimes, as working pressure can be very high here. This country is more productive per hour as most other countries, including the USA. The only reason our yearly productivity is lower than the USA's is the fact we work less hours, and if I believed in a god, I would thank it for that.)
What person will donate an airborne act of love?
He believe's things are sooo bad today.
So, I ask this question: Do you really want to go back to a time when everyone worked the farm, 4:30am-till dark, work. bed, repeat. every day for the rest of your life...which usually ended around 45 for men?
So yes, I work ~50 hrs a week which leaves 118hrs, I sleep 8hrs, leaving 62hrs to play with my son, work on personal projects, etc.
There's alot of professions in this world...maybe those that are unhappy should consider a new one.
-----
--- Just say no to negativity.
I figure that with the amount of time my underlings spend reading this rag of a site, that more than makes up for the so-called extra hours. Now get back to work you lazy bastards!
PHB
who make me sick.
Most real people have families to support thats why there are still people here on this world.
With the outagous medical expenses associated with having a family it is not reasonable to quit a job or move on a whim.
It's a slavery racket, media proganda(read jacques ellul), the church of medicine, and the big boss man are the extortion triad. Using up our lives to make theirs better.
Our lives are serious and not some things to be played with by corporations.
Here I am sitting in the undergraduate library using the computers... and they announce it over the building speakers: A free session to take back your time. My first though was, "But it takes an hour of my time" (which I'm sure someone already said above {see, I'm a good /.er, I don't even read the posts, let alone the articles}).
In any case, this is not some stunt; they are actually doing it.
Most likely the #1 Unfunny Meta/Moderator on
... the time we spend reading all the press releases and such? How do we get /that/ time back?
"PC Load Letter? What the $@#% does that mean?!"
...if I had read this before I came home from work for the day!
To have more time we need governemtn to keep business off of our backs... here is how:
idea: Dealing with unemployment distribution of products, while keeping incentive to work. A controlled number of hours a worker can work per week, set limits either with the individual or the employers using enforced laws. Having a tapered time limit structure based on age so that younger people can start to work some but no too much. Then increasing hours into middle age and then tapering off again into old age. Also that the hours worked would accumulate production shares that would pay divididends. So that to retire all a person would need to do would be to earn shares. This keeps people entering the labor force and working to produce goods while providing an outlet for overproduction. Also the value of currency should be tied to the value of all products produced in reagards to purchasing power. I suggest an overunity of currency value so that not all currency has to be in circulation to be able to purchase all products produced. This accounts for savings occuring. The econmy should be formed of mostly private enterprise where certain types of inovation will occur. Productions needing larger investments with less certain returns should be government domain where other type of innovations occur. Innovation stagnant areas such as large private enterprises, corporations and monopolies shall be regulated by government closely to ensure a fair price of goods and services produced; also the strict enforcment of labour laws and working hour limits.
All in all wealth is created from the raw materials of nature, innovation and labour. The refinment of products and processes comes from competition in the market place. Essentially private and public works can do whatever they want without the regulation of government. The only fair labour practices will have be earned through dilligence and active particpation of workers in government.
The work hour limits should be eased in gradually and first in places of low pay. And in some cases the limits must be emplaced very slowly for atrained workforce to be able to fill the vaccum. Doctors for instance should not be too restircted as their work is vital. As in all things be practical and realistic.
Another thing is that setting a limit on hours worked by an idividual is intened to increase general employment. That an employer should not increase the pace of work to offset hour limits, but should hire more workers. The pace of work shouldn't be increased by the business or fatigue of the worker. The pace of work should be seperately measured from productivity. Improvements and innovations should only be sought after to increase productivity while decreasing the pace of work. Productivity should only be increased by automation and improved processes.
I work for a really good company that tries not to call during off hours but sometimes (once or twice a year) does. As such I'm completely willing to share all my contact info because I know they will only use it in times of desperation.
Personally I like my material possessions (read 55" widescreen) and I love the work I do (software development) and I like my company and I don't have a family to consider so I feel like it's my choice to work 10 or 14 hour days but if you're not hopeless like me then my suggestion would be to find a company that values your work home balance as much as you. Fortune 100 and other large companies are more likely to do this than small shops.
I didn't have time to read the article or any of the comments but I felt I'd post something anyways.
Granted, it can get crazy -- teaching 5 classes, coaching or running an activity, dorm duty, tutoring, and other extracurricular activities make for a very full-time job.
But the payoff is rewarding work (usually), free everything (food, apartment, a big fat campus bandwidth pipe), 3 weeks off at New Year's, a month for spring break, and the entire summer. My school has a large grant program to let teachers pursue higher degrees or just go vacation somewhere cool for personal development (CERN this summer for me and my wife).
So it's a trade-off for me. I'm in the middle of insane parent conferences right now, but 2 weeks off for Thanksgiving are coming right up...
I actually like this part of daylight savings time...say tomorrow night you're in a bar. They call last call just before 2am..but, then, point out to the bartender..at 2am...that is just NOW 1am.
You still have One More Hour to Drink!!
Actually, I got screwed by it in reverse back in spring. Apparently 2am was the time when the clocks changed, so at precisely that moment it became 3am which is closing time where I live, and stores stop selling alcohol as well. I didn't realize it until it was near 2am, and frantically chugged as many beers as I could (sink or swim is good like that). But I really was expecting to have that last hour to talk to all the ladies there. Ah well...
--Drunk as in Beer
Isn't this partly what May Day in the rest of the world is about?
Why does the US have their work and veterans days the wrong way round? They have Labo[u]r day in September whereas the rest of the world has May Day. They pay tribute to their veterans in May (Memorial Day) whereas the rest of the world does it on 11th November.
I heard some conspiracy theory once that it was to do with some hangings of unionists in Chicago over 100 years ago campaigning for their rights (in May). Just why is it backwards?
Ah, New Orleans.. Much fun was had there. Nothing but fond memories going there for Marti Gras or just to visit my buddies going to Tulane. You could walk down the street with a beer in your hand. You could drink in the cab or as a passenger in a car. It was an absolutely liberating experience. It's the way it should be. I will have to visit again.
--Drunk as in Beer
I doubt anybody will read my silly comment, but here's an interesting take on things. I live in Southern California, and today there are 2 2000-acre fires burning less than 5 miles away from where I live. The ash is raining down - literally RAINING down. I read this morning about the "large solar flare" that's disrupting things, and how the world is heating up and the icecaps are melting etc. Now, I'm not going to run around screaming that the world is ending, yada yada and be fatalist. But what I want to say is this: it looks and feels a lot like hell outside (hot, ashes, etc.) and if this is what overworking ourselves gets us, then I DON'T WANT IT. :P
-SixD
If you have any health problems, are old (40+), or have a family, buying your own insurance can be either unavailable or prohibitively expensive.
Pulling a Costanza is rewarded considerably more often.
I for one would work a lot harder and better if I could have shorter work hours.
As of right now, I have no motivation.
... I find my job as a Slashdot troll both fulfilling and rewarding.
Yours in Christ
Doctor Scooby
Slashdot Trolling Academy
Being don't choose to remain poor. While some may be happy with their income relative to the amount they work, the majority work as much as they can. Try working 60 hours a week at minimum wage and then spend money on housing and childcare (since you are working 60 hours a week).Look at the unemployment statistics, not everyone can find a job even if they can move. Many can't afford a decent house or apartment ANYWHERE. They don't live in slums because they are lazy. Also, you can't learn much job-training from PBS; that's just being elitist.
While there are problems with many European healthcare systems, they don't have thousands of children dying of preventable diseases because they don't have access to good health care. When almost a fourth of people in some states don't have healthcare, I'd call it crappy. It's not socialist to believe everyone should have access to a doctor and medicine. I can probably even get the names of some children whose parents can't afford medicine for them so you can explain to them personally why they shouldn't have healthcare. I think you have a radically wrong view of how much access the indigent have to doctors and medicine.
As far as your statistics on state spending on education, I would love to see a link with information. The statistics in the 90's were around 6k average per state differing largely from state to state. Even if it is currently 11k on average, comparing it to tuition at a university is unfair. First, the costs at a university are largely subsidized by all sorts of public and private grants, while public education is free. Second, a university isn't aiming for such small class size averages.
You talk about how people can move from one end of the financial spectrum to the other and this is true. People can do it, but that doesn't mean that the people who haven't are capable, just lazy. Many of the richest people have gotten there on the backs of others. Their climb required taking advantage of other people. When you say it's possible, I agree; But i mean the definition of possible as in "it's possible to win the lottery".
I have a friend whos parents live on a sailboat, and just tour the world... once you're up and running there's really very little recurring cost.
Of course, they are retired and live on savings. To make a life of it, that would be harder I imagine. The real key is to work hard early, then save enough to live a life more to your pleasing as early as possible. Then you can enjoy some nice things without all of the burden of seeking huge income.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
When I started my first job in 1990 and during a recession. The company I went to work for had a stingy vacation policy. Your first year, no time off and the next three years, you got one week. Time was not allowed to be carried over from year to year. Use it or lose it. No one was allowed to take time off during the Summer since the fiscal new year started on July 1. That company was run by marketing and accounting people but they are now out of business.
Here are some ideas that would contribute to employee morale.
- Allow for more time off and if corporate policy is not flexible, give the option of unpaid time off
- Give the option of standard time off for given pay or more time off for less pay.
- Shutdown from Christmas to New Year's. Not much is accomplished in the business world during that time except for retail.
- Allow vacation time to be consumed in half time if the time off is for civic/volunteer pursuits. Example is week off would consume 20 hours and the company throws in 20 hours and it makes them good corporate citizens.
- Every 5 years, the employee can take an unpaid leave of absence or sabbatical (like in academia) for a year and be guranteed a job when he returns
- Allow for vacation carry over from year to year
When I took 4 weeks off last Summer, I caught hell for that but it was nice to leave for a while. As a single guy, I did a lot of camping, bicycling in Indiana (where I am from), Ohio but also went to Eastern Canada (PEI, Nova Scotia), North East US such as Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire. It was nice not to think about corporate politics, budgets, turf battles between us and the prime contractor.I would love to take the months of June, July and August off even if I make 75% of what I now make. I can use the time to travel, spend time with family out of state and recreational pursuits like bicycling, four wheeling, and other things.
One problem with this: I've never known a boss who didn't work more weekends than the average person working for him. CEOs are the worst, in many companys you should not be surprized if you call the CEO at 3am sunday morning and he answers the phone. If he doesn't there is a reasonably good chance he isn't in town. You get up the ladder by working way too much. (Note, smart work, making mistakes won't get you up, and bad luck can hold you down, but most people really work their way up and are rewarded for it in pay)
Nobody* calls me, so getting rid of the cell phone wouldn't help. Most of my email-spam is mailing lists from subjects I'm interested in. This is my personality, I don't like having a lot of people around all the time, so I've done things without thinking that prevent people from calling me. The few calls that I do get are not much more important because they are from the few people who bother to call me. (This had downsides, sometimes I need a friend and don't know who to call, but maintaining friends is work in its own way)
* except parents once in a rare while, and a few friends. On a normal day my phone does not ring.
1) Be very agressive about defining EXACTLY what is to be accomplished by working extra hours. That enables people to meet those goals before the hours actually start. I've been able to diffuse a number of "team must work the weekend" events down to a few people coming in for a few hours. Refuse to go to useless meetings if there is a time crunch that is pressuring you to work long hours.
2) Force peoples hands by being the most "extreme" worker around. If someone wants a meeting at 6:00pm, say "I would love to, but I really have to go do some stuff - I'd be happy to meet at midnight though" (or 5am for you early types). If you are serious and willing to go through with this few will call you on this and usually back off the semi-unreasonable timeframe. A bonus benefit is that if they do decide to go for it, you only loose out on sleep, which you them make up at work to prove a point about how they shouldn't take your time.
3) Be accomidating during real crises, it gives you more leverage when they want to use your time just for the hell of it. Just one overnighter can be pointed to for a year as an example of why you are not working THIS weekend/evening.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
>>Different people, different measures for success, but I'll still dare you to find a person who is at the wrong end of your successful system to agree with you.
The difference is that in America, with enough hard work, you can move from one end of the financial spectrum to the other. I've done so, and so can others. It's not easy, but it's *possible*.
So I win the dare. Now what? Are you open-minded enough to admit that there are alternatives to your worldview that *just might* be correct?
I believed this way when I was making $600/month. Now after some hard work I make much more than that, and I plan on making more than I am now in the next year or so.
The birth of my daughter ten days ago makes me a stay at home dad that occasionally works as a project manager with a local software development firm. My wife is the breadwinner and it made sense for me to be the caregiver.
So what are the costs of this for me and my family?
- Or newest car is almost 6 years old and a new one is no where in sight.
- There is no way we can now afford to move into a bigger house, even though it would be nice.
- I can't afford a boat, personal watercraft, RV, vactaion overseas or pretty much anywhere for that matter.
- I don't have some fancy title or job to brag about to others. My business cards would say "Dad".
I could of course go on. But what I gain is the satisfaction of raising my daughter myself, not some stranger at daycare. I can take her to the doctor when needed, we can go on walks whenever we like, read a book, etc. I don't have the play money I used to and I won't have the "stuff" that that money could buy, but my stress level is SO much lower and I get great satisfaction knowing that I am doing the right thing. I might also add that this situation also makes things much easier on my wife as I can take care of the daily family tasks. She doesn't have to worry about anyting once she gets home from work.
I've taken back my time and I love it.
I just took my Time back to the newsstand, but I'm still feeling stressed.
Maybe I should take back the Newsweek too.
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
The parent poster is most likely trolling, and here's why:
, among many others, for an accurate assessment of grad student pay ($1700/mo = $20k/yr).
In a later post, he says all of the schools he looked at offered $30-40k.
This is simply false.
I'm in grad school, earning the Ivy League standard of $20k/yr as a research assistant. Every single school I looked at paid almost exactly the same amount (which is not surprising - schools do talk to each other). See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~harchol/gradschooltalk.pdf
Look for yourself - $20k/yr is almost universal for a CS PhD program.
Moreover, I would STRONGLY dispute the notion that grad school is a good way to take back your time. If anything, WORK is a good way to do that when compared to grad school, because _grad school never stops_. You're under pressure to work _every waking moment_, and maybe you sleep too much. I've had a prof say to me "why don't you feel guilty [about not doing enough work]; you're a grad student?", and he was only partly joking.
Grad school is a very hard life, and in fact tends to _become_ your life when you're in it. Any question to a grad student of "how are things?" or "what do you do?" or "what's up?" is automatically interpreted as being about their research, and happy, positive responses are exceedingly rare. The responses from people outside of grad school are strikingly different, and happier (yes, I've made a habit of tracking this recently). If I walk through a group and ask people how things are going, I can quite accurately pick out the people who are not grad students - they're the ones who say things are great, and that they're happy.
Mind you, the parent poster is somewhat correct about being able to set your own hours, and if you're lazy you can get away without doing loads of work...but neither will you likely get much in the way of results. If one spends 10 years in grad school without any good research results, one is not going to be high on the list of desirable employees, degree or no.
Can I have a rain check on this? I got 5 hours sleep last night due to trying to install RH9 over RH7.2. It's still not working so I may be up late again tonight.
I'll take back my time some other day. I promise.
It depends on where you are. If you live in the East Bay (SF Bay Area) but work in the South Bay, it can be a bit difficult. See, 20+ years ago, Santa Clara County voters voted down a tiny tax to pay for BART extensions.
Now they're screwed. We have the 2nd worst traffic in the state (and maybe the country) - I would take the train to work if it a)didn't take 2.5 hrs each way and b)didn't cost $15/day.
It's now way quicker & cheaper to own a car. I value my time, and by owning a car, I get to work in 1 hour instead of 2.5. Sad to say it, but sometimes it's hard to not have a car.
If I lived & worked in San Francisco, I'd have no car - but when you live 50 miles away, it's kind of unavoidable. And no, moving isn't an option.
If I had any mod points you would get them!
Err, yes it is. That is what socialism is. Apparently your American brainwashing has led to use 'socialist' as synonym for 'evil'.
Because when I read it I thought about all us poor folks spending our time on slashdot. I'd rather be at home, but for work, I guess this will have to be good enough.
Ok here goes...
... i.e. the holiday you work so frigging hard for 4 weeks holiday a year.
It's all about holiday not money. You work stoopid hours for what ? That warm feeling inside ? The money ? The money AND the free time to spend the money in
But is that why you work so hard. No I work so hard... because I have my "dream job". I have a career path.
BULLSHIT.
Career paths and dream jobs are ideas sold by the private sector to keep you motivated and working hard.
This has been especially evident during the current downturn. Suddenly those annual promotions aren't happening any more because of economic conditions. i.e. The promotions aren't because your good enough but because the company is growing and needs managers/ senior programmers / sysadmin team leads...
Ok so why do they need to keep you motivated to work harder and longer. For lots (of quite complicated reasons) its due to double digit growth. Companies want stay stagnant they have to grow and not at the same rate every year. They have to grow at a rate of greater than 10% every year or their faceless investors will take take their cash and invest it elsewhere.
And that's it those faceless investors. Its because of them that your CEO and hence your boss wants to keep you motivated and working hard. Your hard work doesn't just let your company make a profit, it keeps the interest coming into those shareholders SO THEY GET 52 weeks holiday a year.
This is my life's work. Let me know what you think.
This has been knowing about for some time in my head it's good to have it out.
_________________________________________________ Intresting SIG
How about those of us that actually like to work? I willingly work more than is required of me just because I find it very satisfying to see the results of a successufly finished project. Not everyone considers work a waste of time and suffers 8 hours a day just to get that paycheck
Thanks for bring back some nice memories. I went to grad. school for a PhD in math, then ended up coding for the next 25 years. But I do remember it as a good time, with an easy TA job that only took a few hours a week, virtually no taxes to pay, and lots of interesting people to socialize with. And like you say, it's 'prestigious' enough that nobody cares that your're not making much money.
i can tell you have never worked for 2$ an hour because you couldn't find a better job. i can tell that you've never gone more than a week without food, because there was just no money to buy it with. i agree that this "take back your time day" is half-brained, and not really any sort of movement worth talking about, but you sir are talking out your ass. there Are people who succomb to the evil that is corporate life, The Right Way (tm), but there are those who are just trying to make ends meet, and reasonably living to boot. most places arent exactly the fertile crescent, there is no food in corporate megacities growing on trees (that you can legally eat, at least), and water, with the exception of a few public buildings costs ~4$ a bottle. i'm afraid i may freeze to death this upcoming winter. of course, not that this matters to you in any way shape or form.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
And the balance is better, more time for family, more job security, more flexible hours, longer vacation, less time stuck in traffic! The funny thing is it's for an American company. Why don't they treat employees at home as well as they do here? Because we put up with it! And our unions are more interested in gathering money for their own fat cats than helping empower labor.
There are disadvantages. If you want to get fast or quality service, if you wan't the latest gadget, the biggest least fuel efficient car, by all means move to America. But more people need to be aware that there ARE alternatives.
My daughter doesn't get the competition thing. When she was 5 and in soccar, she generally couldn't tell who "won". She could definitely tell you what they had for snack, though!
And that rocks. Kids like ritual and running around and screaming. I dunno if I want her in competitive leagues, though. There's a side of ourselves we don't see unless we push ourselves hard. On the other hand, that's where the parents get in fist fights with the refs.
Those 2.7 extra inces in our TV's make up for the missing 2.7...uh......elsewhere.
....GO AMERICA!
How did this get modded +4, Insightful? It's pure flamebait (my bet), or its a pretty awful misunderstanding of economics. People will always go for this shit more when the economy is down, too. Have IBT? Maybe. But I still like to argue.
I'm a little curious who this "french philosopher" is, but not really. Macroeconomic theory changed drastically in the late 19th century, which ties in to the birth of the field as an actual discipline in itself (instead of merely the province of bored clerks, philosophers, and suchlike). Suffice to say, we've come a long, long way since this argument held any water in serious discussion--it seems plausible, though, so people get away with it all the time amongst those who haven't taken any economic theory.
First problem: this theory assumes that labor (or work) is directly proportional to productivity, which is demonstrably not true. Productivity is a function of labor and CAPITAL (tools, training, materials, etc), such that the exact output is determined by "technology", loosely speaking (you could also say "technique"). Take Heinlein's great example of apple pie: a skilled chef can take raw ingredients and make a wonderfully valuable, tasty, expensive pie, while a clueless moron can turn those same ingredients (which already have some value) into a disgusting, inedible mess. Note also that the quality of the ingredients (e.g., good vs. rotten apples) or the quality of the tools (full restaurant kitchen vs. a hot plate and a paint stirrer) is a TREMENDOUS influence on the value of the pie that is the output.
An American costs a hell of a lot more to feed, clothe, and put in an SUV, it's true. But it's also true that the American produces a hell of a lot more wealth per hour of labor (generally, but not true for every case) than a Third-world counterpart. By the time we start working for a living, we mostly have better education and job skills than they do. Also, we tend to have longer working lives, because we live longer and stay healthier. It IS true that you will have a higher standard of living if you produce more value, so it's not surprising that we're materially better off.
Consider, also, the fact that capital (not just money, but all real property and knowledge) tends to accumulate over the years, given mostly stable circumstances. Millions of people every year cross the Brooklyn bridge, work in the Empire State Building, and drive on our interstate highway system. If you don't get how, consider that a trucker might make twice as many trips between customers per day on a nice superhighway than he would on a narrow cobblestone road, because he can go faster.
These valuable things, when injected into the American labor/capital function, enhance the amount that we can produce with a given amount of labor. All the cars, trucks, houses, offices, and roads all over the country are a part of this production function, enabling a much higher level of output. We have invested a hell of a lot over the years in building this capital stock, and it pays us back every day.
I'm not going to say that sweatshops are fair or unfair. "Exploitation", as it were, does exist in capitalist market economies, and it happens all the time, but it's not the reason why the modern First world is rich. I will pay an employee as much per hour as will maximize my profits. If the labor market is supply-heavy, I can get away with lower salaries because the workers have less choices, but it's true just as often that a worker can pick and choose, driving salaries up. The amount of power a worker has depends on how unique and productive he/she can be, meaning that you tend to make more money as a worker if you're educated and skilled.
In countries with masses of unskilled potential laborers, factory-type employers can usually pay a wage that's barely enough to make a worker better than they'd be without the factory jobs--some people call these sweatshops. Nobody has the power to bargain for a better wage because there's probably anoth
So said the comedian Simon Pegg in endorsement of last month's England's National Slacker Day (August 23rd). This current week (September 1-5) is Work-Life Balance week for Britons, centered around pretty much the same idea. It is no wonder that these ideas are popular in the UK, since British get the fewest vacations of any European nation.
While some view leisurely time off as a right, does slacking really mean happiness? Some lament that the slacker lifestyle isn't what it used to be. Simon Pegg himself broke the first and only rule in the Slacker Day handbook, by working: "there, perhaps, is the problem with slacking in a world which does not owe any of us a living"
More to the point, Professor Michael Rose at University of Bath (he seems to do a lot of research in the field of work) found that working long hours does not lower one's quality of life - and indeed improves it. Not only are workaholics making more money and getting promotions - they are happier as well.
So fess up. Are you a slacker or a workaholic? How do you achieve a healthy balance between success in the office and a happy life outside of it?
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
I am reading this from work on my day off. Niiiiiice!!!! Everyone must've gotten the memo but me, because I am here because we are short staffed and had people call in sick.
I want my time back. I want the 50% of my work time every year that I work for the damn government to pay for some crackhead to have 12 children, some corporation to get a free stadium, politicians to get a $1M/yr pension plan, etc ...
Who's with me ?
You'd get mine too, moderating your insane drivel into oblivion.
/. didn't allow for ACs. If you're going to spew crap like this, have the balls (or ovaries) to sow yourself and suffer the potential community backlash for exposing yourself as the village idiot.
First Amendment protections (at least here in the U.S.) may very well protect your right to say whatever you want (although technically they wouldn't protect my right to censor you if I could, as I am not a government actor). They also protect my right to speak louder so you can't be heard.
This is one of those posts that make me wish
fuck you.
Battery is going to die, so let's see how quick yet thorough I can make this...
How did this get modded +4, Insightful? It's pure flamebait (my bet), or its a pretty awful misunderstanding of economics. People will always go for this shit more when the economy is down, too. Have IBT? Maybe. But I still like to argue.
It's not a real mystery: it got modded that way because some group of moderators agreed with his statements and thought it was justified. You feel it shouldn't have been because you disagree with his position. Maybe you'd feel validated if you were modded higher? Having a conflicting point of view with yours doesn't make it less valuable.
I'm a little curious who this "french philosopher" is, but not really. Macroeconomic theory changed drastically in the late 19th century, which ties in to the birth of the field as an actual discipline in itself (instead of merely the province of bored clerks, philosophers, and suchlike). Suffice to say, we've come a long, long way since this argument held any water in serious discussion--it seems plausible, though, so people get away with it all the time amongst those who haven't taken any economic theory.
I will admit to not having spent a lot of time studying economics and that I'm probably swimming in water much deeper than I should be, but here it goes anyways: first, as you point out, it's economic THEORY. That means it's not fact, it's not natural law, it's not God's word or anything else along those lines, and that it is possible for others to have a competing theory. That being said, I too would like to know who the "french philosopher" is. Attributions like this always make me think back to "so I heard from a friend of a friend's cousin that..." and lac some amount of credibility.
First problem: this theory assumes that labor (or work) is directly proportional to productivity, which is demonstrably not true. Productivity...[words, words, words]...TREMENDOUS influence on the value of the pie that is the output.
I would mostly agree with this...
An American costs a hell of a lot more to feed, clothe, and put in an SUV, it's true. But it's also true that the American produces a hell of a lot more wealth per hour of labor (generally, but not true for every case) than a Third-world counterpart. By the time we start working for a living, we mostly have better education and job skills than they do. Also, we tend to have longer working lives, because we live longer and stay healthier. It IS true that you will have a higher standard of living if you produce more value, so it's not surprising that we're materially better off.
Hmmm, but is the wealth created by the average American minus the wealth consumed by the average American that much greater than the average "third-world" counterpart? I think that a big part of the OP's point is that distribution of consumption is not consistent with distribution of wealth-generation, i.e., a large number of people do not see their "fair share" of the wealth that they create as it is concentrated up the ladder into the hands of a few people accumulate more wealth than they actually do generate (aka, "CEOs" or "hamburger" for socialists and "eat the rich" anarchists)
[more stuff I don't have any comment on right now...]
I'm not going to say that sweatshops are fair or unfair. "Exploitation", as it were, does exist in capitalist market economies, and it happens all the time, but it's not the reason why the modern First world is rich. I will pay an employee as much per hour as will maximize my profits. If the labor market is supply-heavy, I can get away with lower salaries because the workers have less choices, but it's true just as often that a worker can pick and choose, driving salaries up. The amount of power a worker has depends on how unique and productive he/she can be, meaning that you tend to make more money as a worker if you're educated and skilled.
Hang on there: exploitation is a big rea
fuck you.
flame /flame
The instant you start subdividing, it stops being rural. Assholes like you are destroying my hometown (Litchfield, CT) and countless other small communities across the US - I used to be able to bike the 2 miles down my road and know at least 85% of the people who lived along it; now, there's...4 40-lot subdivisions where pastures used to be, with two more applied for, and most every family originally on the road has left. "The Country" is not an acre and half bordered by trees, it's splitting wood, clearing lots, mucking stalls, mowing huge spreads of scraggly grass, building barns...get down here to eastern Long Island, it's pseudo-rural suburban sprawl as far as the eye can see, you'd LOVE it down here.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
You mean you do things other than working? That isn't obvious from reading /.
Higher quality of life: I prefer walking in forests that aren't dying because of acid rain. As for the air you breath...
I have moved from a 60 hour week to a 28 hour week. My health (physical and mental) are much better. I go to the swimming pool twice a week and walk everywhere I can rather than drive. I cook all our food. It saves us about 15-20% compared with prepared food (frozen, canned, delicatesen). It tastes better and is healthier too.
On the financial side I earn less but I also pay less social security and tax. The interesting part is that I have more time to spend the part that is left over after the taxman has passed!
My other half has 45 days paid holiday (9 weeks) and works full time now. For the last 10 years she had been working from home while raising the kids. We just swapped roles at the end of last year. Now our sons are old enough to need dad around to help with homework etc.
They are very different from some of the other childern we know - the ones who only see their parents on the weekend...
That is what I call quality of life (reminds me of the scene from a Monty Python movie...)
realkiwi
What are you, a nigger?
Us foreigners always find it amusing when Americans label themselves the hardest working or most productive. I honestly haven't found one statistic on the Internet that do not compute to the average American working 40 hours/week LIKE most of the world. I do however believe you have a point with this silly 10-12 days vacation a year. And although I currently only have 15, I think your position sucks in that regard. It is probably why your yearly hours of work seem high, you don't take time off. On a day to day basis it doesn't amount to much difference though. As for productivity. I have heard numerous foreigners with green cards relate how they are valued in the States because they work harder and more productive than the locals. There is value in the proposition of working less and spending more time enjoying life, even though at a lower standard. It is a cruel thing to work hard most of your life, really losing out on spending time with those that are dear to you and then ending up old, maybe rich and your kids doing the same things you regret. Its a cycle that must be broken.
First of all, the whole damn point of this "Take Back Your Time" thing is that we need to start saying LOUDLY the things you're saying in your post.
Secondly, I didn't volunteer to work a 40+ hour work week with (last year) 2 hours of mandatory overtime every day all summer. And a lousy 2 wks vacation and a smattering of personal days. I want what those 'lazy' Europeans have! Saying it's MY fault is ASSuming there's competition in the job market. The entire american system is designed around the idea of exploiting the worker as much as possible and the only reason we have what we have now is the strength of the labor movement and pro-worker legislation of the past. Before there were unions, workers from about age 8 on up put in 16 hour days in places, under the most horrendous working conditions.
Some would argue that business has learned its lesson and knows worker satisfaction drives customer satisfaction, but that's just self-delusional bullshit. If the bosses thought they could get away with it, they'd turn the labor clock back to the 1800's in a second, which is basically what they're doing by moving all those american jobs to other countries.
O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
I can't believe I wasted my time reading that.
(or posting this)
By reading this sig, you agree to the terms of my sig license.
You mean "different from 50-hours-a-week with 2-shitty-weeks-off-per-year," dumbass. Don't make baseless generalizations about Libertarians until you understand basic English grammar.
Indeed, the whole reason I clicked on "Read More" was to search for occurrences of the phrase "make your time", so the post was valuable to me. But then, maybe I'm not the kind of reader /. is looking for.
one hundred twenty
is just enough characters
to write a haiku
Because we all know a Simpson's quote is far more valuable...
3 02 804
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=83487&cid=7
-l
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I suspect the Nigerians are so happy because of the freely available drugs and the fact that they have so many 'friends' they send email to.
:)
Just wanna say "thanks" for that one. Still making me smile - wish I had thought of it!