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Pushing P4 to 5.25GHz with Liquid Nitrogen
SkywalkerOS8 writes "The folks at Tom's Hardware have an article up about their attempt to overclock a Pentium 4 over 5 GHz using liquid nitrogen as cooling. A DivX video is available along with pictures of the custom copper cooling head they made."
I think they should have splashed some nitrogen on some of those flash ads. Gives me a headcahe just looking at the main page.
Also makes my Thinkpad screech to a crawl.
Liquid Nitrogen? Compressors? Huge heatsinks? Wouldn't it have been cheaper just to beowulf cluster a few systems together?
Then again, I guess that wouldn't be as 1337, and we wouldn't have this slashdot story over it.
they should have pored it on good ol' Tom and then put a hammer to him to see if he'd break into little pieces.
relax im kidding.
Oh well, I bet it'll get really good time in Seti.
Treehugger? Treehugger... Treehugger!
reading things like these I'm reminded of the good old days where all you had to do was getting two 333MHz celerons, overclock them to 500MHz by upping the FSB, some socket-to-slot adaptors and *baddabing* you had a total of 1GHz for a bargain while using normals coolers. Was that only 3 or 4 years ago? *sigh*
In other news...
A rose achieved 3.7GHz and a segment of rubber hose was clocked to 7.5GHz. A red rubber ball, however was unable to surpass 300 MHz befor shattering.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The question is, how fast did it play solitaire once Windoze was booted?
<sig>no sig</sig>
Heh, usually when people do something stupid, I usually say they had nothing better to do because they didn't have a computer.
:D
What's their excuse?!
When did overclocking become a sport? I thought it was just a way to save a few bucks on a processor. Or rather, waste a few bucks if you're unlucky.
- shazow
Sounds like it could hurt you and your equipment pretty easily. Better not spring a leak!
cool... *drools*
but.... uhhh... how many people have liquid nitrogen at their house, and what exactly the cost of keeping this baby going?
i dunno, i just don't see a point in having this much processing power in a home computer, and there are much better (safer, surer) ways of cooling mission-critical computers. I know that at Nasa Ames they use some type of nonconductive liquid and immerse the whole CPU in it, forgot what it was called though...
just my $.02
Investing forum
I would like to see the same thing done with an Analog-to-Digital converter. It would be fun to be able to direct sample a 2.4GHz WLAN signal!
I have an Athlon that seems to be growing warts. Will this take care of that as well?
Custom copper cooling head? That's a bong if I've ever seen one.
Because it's not there.
The experiment to see if it can be done is always fun, but I wonder what practicality can come out of this? It's expensive as can be and equipment lifetime costs are high due to frequent failures. I've done some overclocking in my time, but it has always been sort of a hobby thing to see if I could do it. Several years ago I was impressed when I actually got to visit a couple of Cray clusters we had been submitting work to. They had little windows on the ends where you could see liquid (fluorocarbons) flowing over the components to keep things cool, but this was a multi-million dollar facility doing classified work.
I guess I am wondering if there are there any users seriously pushing the limits of commodity hardware by overclocking to extremes?
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They must have received an early beta of the new MS OS. They need more horsepower.
Dualies or Quaddies would be a much better approach than this kind of nonsense. Why have a single (admittedly fast) CPU bottleneck?
Racing for higher MHz is a mug's game - that's why Intel, IBM, Sony, AMD, etc are moving to multi-core chips.
Da Blog
I can imagine it now, one careless motion and SMASH your CPU is in itty bitty pieces.
Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
I wonder if this would be cheaper for short render work than purchasing a faster CPU.
It would be neat if they had blade servers that had a liquid nitrogen tanks. When a work order is recieved, a truck comes in and fills a liquid nitrogen storage tank. Then it's fed into the blade cabinet. Once all the cpu's in the blade are at running overclock tempature turn the whole thing on.
This is a amusing article, but kind of misses the point. So one problem with running processors faster is that they get too hot and we can get around that by cooling it with liquid nitrogen. Cool, but CPU heat is just one design element contributing to the effective speed of the computer.
This is like saying that I should cool my VW with liquid nitrogen so that I can run the engine faster. Sure, I'll pick up some speed, but honestly there are lots of other factors preventing my VW from running at a more productive speed than how fast I can get the engine spinning. The shape (like the bus on a PC), the steering (peripherals), and mostly that the cops don't appreciate me going 328mph through the school zone.
www.voiceofthehive.com - Beekeeping and Honeybees for those who don't.
There sure is. You're limited by how fast your signal can propagate through the gates and by how much heat your dissipate (power is proportional to clock frequency for any given IC, IIRC). Liquid nitrogen sure helps, but something will give eventually. If nothing else, you can't get around the fact that electrons can only move so fast.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
This has been done before though along other lines: http://www.muropaketti.com/artikkelit/cooling/r300 _ln2/
imagine a beowulf cluster of those...
(sorry i just had to)
FP!
hmm, maybe i should get one of these. My processor is kinda slow...
The Braying and Neighing of Barnyard Animals Follows.
some fool will try to rig this at home, as clumbsy as we all are, not to mention how painful it is to work inside a system, and will end up spilling liquid nitro and breaking a couple of fingers into pretty little frozen shards...I won't touch this one with a ten foot stick.
I'm not sure, but a better use of industrial gases might be this and probably would provide more perceived results.
(speaking as an ex LOX, LH2 and LN2 piping designer, of course, YMMV)
Heh, this looks like a lot of fun, but that board's not going to last long. Look at the picture on the first page. See the capacitors next to the socket with little ice crystals growing on them? Those are electrolytic caps; they use a liquid electrolyte which doesn't take kindly to being frozen solid. I'm amazed they didn't split open. Colder isn't always better; some components will simply fail at liquid-N2 temperatures. At least they took steps to deal with condensation.
"Wild" Bill Zollar, my Chem 140 professor told us the story about how ever couple or four years he'd do a liquid nitrogen demonstration. The common freeze it break it variety, which he personally didn't find exciting enough to suit his tastes. So he'd don two latex gloves having filled up the thumb of one with ground beef. He would then dunk the thumb of ground round into the liquid nitrogen while he was talking and then take it out and hit it with a hammer. Appearently, the last year he did it, a chuck of his flash frozen fake finger hit a girl in the head, causing her to pass out! Which in turn got HIM sent to the dean's office, and why he couldn't do it for us, and hasn't done it since.
Or so the story went (as I recall).
...even something that powerful cannot withstand the almighty slashdotting forever
With all that fancy talk about tolerances and only one company in the world that could make the aparatus, you'd think it would be bit fancier... Nope, just a coper plate with a copper tube sticking up off of it that you fill with nitrogen, and it cools via evaperation. I could build it with some 2-inch copper pipe, a torch, and some soldier... 5 GHz is cool and all, but come on, is there really the need to make it sound so difficult?
I got my Athalon 1.4G to behave like it was cooled to absolute zero!
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Going bodly where no blue screen have ever arrived before (so fast)
May the source be with you!
with that amount of ice crystals, I'm surprised it didn't short? I know it's distilled water but you figure minerals from the metallic elements on the silicon would contaiminate it and cause shorts?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Its a true screenshot. What isn't true is the actual clock... I ran some ASM that had a typo in it, and it somehow accelerated the windows timer, thus making apps see my CPU as something faster.
Even more amazing is what 3D mark 03 sees. Yes, to that program, I have a 60.1Ghz processor (not a typo)
Image 2
And I didn't even have to use any more cooling than the laptops normal fan.
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although -190 Celcius is indeed somewhat on the chilly side, I think N2 would be a sound choise: You need something with a boiling point somewhere below 0 celcius (so you have a nice temperature gradient to work with) and you don't want to worry about the environment too much when your liquid boils away. N2 fits, it is easily available and has the bonus benefit that it will nicely extinguish the small fires where the graphics card is trying to keep up with the CPU
This overclocking stuff is REALLY stupid to the point of insanity. My conclusion is that it's a weird fantasy about the lone DIY (do-it-yourself) tinkerer.
First, consider the economic side. For all of the special efforts and costs needed to cool down, test, and monitor an overclocked CPU, you could just buy a couple more for the same speedup effect. No special anything required. At the same time, there is no real need for all those cycles--we have a glut of cycles now. If it were really cost-effective to overclock and use special cooling systems, then the very few people who actually do need lots and lots of cycles would be using overclocking for their supercomputers--and they don't. They just buy more CPUs and run them the way they were designed.
The design question leads to the second point. Building a modern CPU is not a hobby for amateurs. It is an incredibly complicated device involving the efforts of large teams of very clever people using very fancy design tools. No one person could even know all the details of a modern CPU. Far too many details. They may know some of the higher level features, or know a lot of detail about a tiny section, but no one really understands all of it. However, they are doing the best they can to insure that it will work reliably, and that includes MANY design considerations that are related to the clock speed.
So back to my main conclusion: Overclocking is a fantasy of the DIY tinkerer "beating" the experts. Actually, it's nice when it happens, but overclocking is NOT one of those cases. The overclockers fantacize about some form of "delivering more bang for the buck", but they are competing directly against professionals with the same goal. The pros win, especially in Intel's case where their development costs per CPU are almost negligible. As the joke goes, "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet." The overclockers already lost. (By the way, I think this is also an expecially American fantasy, a kind of "independence" thing, and that there are very few non-American overclockers.)
One more technical aspect as a fairly concrete example. Overclocked computers can become unreliable. Many overclockers limit their testing to "Does it boot and seem to run the OS properly?" However, the OS is not using the floating point resources the same way that true numeric applications do. The machine may seem okay as far as the OS is concerned, but actually be producing gibberish results. (There was actually a probable example of this published by seti@home. I'm tempted to diverge into the psychological relationships there...)
Ergo, I've never heard of Intel hiring someone for their expertise in overclocking, and I don't expect to.
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
The point of this is to see how fast you can overclock a normal processor using any means necessary. Says nothing about survivability of components, only the maximum stable (over ~6 hours) overclock reached. Think of it as a practical exercise.
95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
But does "Tom's Hardware" sound like a gay porn site name
MoFscker
Dear Slashdot Reader:
Thank you for pointing out to us the dangers of condensation. We have taken steps to address this problem.
Instead of simply dehumidifying the air, in true Tom's Hardware Style(tm), our next overclocking attempt will take place in the vacuumn of space.
Sincerely,
Tom's Hardware
occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
Only one or two, mind you, but it still boggles the mind that this Pentium running 2.5x faster than the Athlon chip didn't utterly dominate all comers.
Given the history of THG and their decidedly negative (some might say Intel-funded) view of the Athlon 64 chips, it's not particularly surprising they'd choose to pull that page, but it does cast further doubt on the continued relevance of what was once a high-quality tech reporting site.
The few posts questioning this on the THG forums seem to have disappeared in the time it took me to write this. Strange...
Where are the usual pretty Tom's Hardware graphs? What the hell is a 5.25 GHz processor good for, if we can't awe over benchmarks like "time it takes to process a SETI unit" or its score in Sandra 2004?
it was shown that a core voltage above 1,880 volts
Where the hell did they plug this thing into?
----
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http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
According to a mechanic I once knew, the tranny on a VW beetle will bolt directly up to the engine from a Porsche 928. He claimed to have done this once, and the vehicle made it 50 whole miles before all the oil came out the bottom (but it ran like a bat out of hell for those 50 miles, since a VW beetle weighs ~1500 lb compared to ~4500 lb for a Porsche 928). Oh, and it was a *bit* hard on the suspension, and they had to cut a hole in the rear hood for the engine to stick out...
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
There sure is. You're limited by how fast your signal can propagate through the gates and by how much heat your dissipate (power is proportional to clock frequency for any given IC, IIRC).
I think it's proportional to the square of the clock frequency.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
I had a science teacher do this once, but with breakfast sausage links in the fingers of the latex glove. A very effective demonstration! I thought something was strange when he turned around and had his back face the students when he put on the glove.
I can't wait for the posters:
"Yeah but why would anyone need 5GHz??? That's way too much, I get by with my 286/386/PentiumI/II/III/IBM PCjr and anyone who gets something faster is wasting their money."
-- taking over the world, we are.
why not put the computer in a freezer?
What's the point of overclocking to 5ghz, writing an article, and NOT RUNNING ANY BENCHMARKS?
Sigh.
Less Talk, More Beer.
a lot of programs either dont make use of smp or use it very poorly for any number of reasons
I'm well aware of that. I've been enjoying personal homebrew SMP rigs since the days of the P1. My approach has always been if you want it done properly do it yourself. Support has been improving, especially of late.
Even without programs that intelligently distribute load across the CPUs, you can still use processor affinity to restrict one of the SMP-unaware processes to a single CPU, maxing it out, while you enjoy gaming (or whatever) on the other CPU(s).
Really, no matter how fast you think your current CPU is, in a multitasking modern OS you would probably get abetter computing experience (less lag, reduced thrashing, smoother playback) with two (or more) slower CPUs taking up the slack.
I have an old dual P3 1GHz that still gives me a smoother ride than my P4 3.2 GHz in work. If I was single-tasking, like running a demanding game exclusively, then that newer P4 is probably going to win out - but in that case I'd rather use a console, frankly. YMMV.
Da Blog
So they couldn't get the last 15% out of it, because memory had to run in asynchronous mode, because the (bus?) clock multiplier wouldn't work with the actual memory speed?
Do you have to be careful about this when you are building your own system? How many systems out there are running 15% under spec, just because some multiplier is wrong?
Can someone please explain how to choose speeds for DDR memory, FSB, and CPU, so this doesn't happen?
They also mentioned that it was because the memory was running at a latency of 3T. What difference does that make to having to run in asynch mode?
How do you even know if you're running in asynch mode?
Thanks for any info...
Didn't a group of people push processor limits to the max a while ago with liquid nitrogen too?
Pelé!
This is basically dumping liquid nitrogen onto processors outside and clocking them up. There's not much of an achivement there. You can soak LEDs in liquid nitrogen and make them do all sorts of interesting tricks too. Whoop.
Why not wait until someone comes up with a indoor version, properly vented and pumped, with a compressor cycle that you can actually use on a long-term basis? That would be an achivement I'd like to see. Of course, it's orders of magnitude more difficult and dangerous, too.
..don't panic
I remember years ago it was always talked about using Liquid Nitrogen to cool CPUs and it was like the one thing that a person could do that would be considered by the entire community as "wow." I mean if you could overclock that little 233mhz AMD up to 500 or so by sticking some liquid nitrogen AND figure out a way to keep all of the condensation problems away it was pretty cool. Now a days thoes problems have all been solved and Liquid Nitrogen is cheap. Now on to Beowulf, the term beowulf means very little, and it would be more accurate to just call it a cluster rather than a "beowulf cluster". At least thats from my experience in clustering.
FuckTheFuckingFuckers.com - Post your th
When they figure out how to overclock the human brain, let me know.
It is well known that single crystal, isotopically pure diamond makes the best heatsink material, as this substance has the highest thermal conductivity of any known material. Engagement cpu anyone ?
A lot of people have asked about the relevance of this: Basically, there is none. But that's all right. It's a nice story to entertain their readers, and I'm willing to bet it was a lot of fun for them, too. Not everything needs to have a point, you know.
That said, there's one thing that would still interest me: Now that we've seen them overclock that wimpy Pentium 4 (I hate that architecture! How can anyone build a 20-step pipeline?), let's have some real techno-porn: Liquid Nitrogen-cooled 2x2.0GHz G5 Powermac! That would be quite a sight to behold. Especially with that nifty 1Ghz FSB.
Divide et impera!
You must never have read Tom's Hardware before. *EVERYTHING* they do is played up to man-on-the-moon levels, regardless of how trivial. You can either get used to it, or do like me and simply avoid Tom's as much as possible. :)
I overclocked for two years on Ritalin.
Pull my finger for my public key.
Good one. The only other professor grosses-out students tale I know of is licking pee from a finger.
Liquid Nitrogen is cold when it's evaporating. You want it to be cold? Give it a flat surface to evaporate on, and keep pouring on the Nitrogen.
Basically, if you lay a piece of Saran Wrap on your motherboard, then let the LN2 drip on the CPU constantly, you can cool that bastard to -195.798C.
Making a big, tall tower just looks like a stupid Freudian mistake.
Sorry Germans. No wonder they've lost every war they ever started.
I wonder if you can attach quad monitors, quad mice and keyboards, and have a lanparty on once CPU. I know the radeon 9800 can go that far and already does miltiple monitors, I know of X projects to use multiple USB mice simultaneously and possibly multiple USB keyboards too.
hmmmmmmmmmm`
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
and why the copper pipe? If all you are really concerned with is putting LN2 on the cpu, just use a plastic pipe and seal it well at the bottom. It seems counterproductive to have good thermal conductivity through the thickness of the pipe...
Unless maybe their pipe has a bottom to it, but that seems wrong as well. Seems to me that the heat would cause N2 cavitation at the bottom of the bath and reduce the efficiency of the cooling. I am not a refrigeration engineer, but this seems like it is hillbilly engineering to me.
+++ ATH0 +++
How did they prevent condensation from forming on the hardware? It sounds like the air would be humid enough.
The blocked-out part you mention is where the model of the processor would normally live (i.e. the Mhz for intel cpus and the rating for AMDs). See here
The article does raise an interesting point in my eyes.. Modern Processors put out too much heat!
I'm wondering when Intel and AMD will stop concentrating on speed (as at some point it may become less relevent, but not quite yet I guess) and start concentrating on lessening the heat generation.
I for one pray for the day that even passive cooling becomes enough to run a pentium....
As a side note to that, Via has managed to make processors that can be passively cooled, but they're much slower and equivalent to a P3.
You've got 8% of my love - 8% of my love - 8/100's of the time you're the only girl I'm dreaming of.
Regardless of any hardware improvements :)
It's scarry when world views collide...
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
I'm adding this to my pr0n playlist. J/K, I don't have one but this is so awsome. I can't help but wondering how much it would cost to maintain that speed/temp with liquid nitrogen. It's kinda like the nuke-sub movies where the core reactor needs to be cooled but it leaks and over heats. Are we going to be seeing the same thing is super computing soon?
-Tim Louden
Finally, 5.25GHz is catching up to Athlon XP and the G4 on Distributed.net's rc5! :)
Pretty Pictures!
Hmm. Safety gloves? Protective glasses?
You can definitely tell that these are computer geeks, and not chemistry geeks. Liquid nitrogen is remarkably safe stuff to play with, unless you're deeply stupid about it.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
umm... So they are claiming a 5,25 GHz overclock, but it wasnt stable at that speed? Then i'd hardly call it a real overclock, I could propably clock my P4 to 5GHz too but it wouldn't work for more than a few microseconds. If they want to claim that kind of results they better show some long running stresstest/benchmark results too. And why is the stock clockspeed of the CPU covered in all the pics?
After seeing the clock rate they got, I really wanted to see the benchmark results. Do the numbers scale linearly from 3GHz?
Just an FYI, the boys in Japan have had a 5+ghz stable p4 since March.
http://son.t-next.com/
THG likes to say they do everything first, when in fact their p4 wasn't even stable at 5ghz. only 4.7ghz.
And yes. It is excessive.
-Zoson
I think heat generated is non-linear with processor speed. So, overclocking a faster processor should be harder than a slower one. I'm not really sure though... I may be overlooking something...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
What does this mean:
Before we got down to our actual record attempt, we checked the loading capacity of the materials and individual components. To do this, we placed the entire test construction in a polystyrene shell and installed it. ( source)
I don't get the part about testing the loading capacity. What is that? And how do you test it by placing in in polystyrene?
Thanks!
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
dunno who modded the parent down, but its actually on topic .... all that heat being dissipated by the liquid nitro there is coming out of the power socket ..... hence the huge bill you'd get if you run this things for a couple of weeks (not to mention the transport costs for 20 galons of liquid nitrogen ....)
From the article: > In plain English: 84 watts on a surface of 1.12 > square centimeters - the size of a fingertip! > Extrapolated to square meters that make 840,000 > watts or 840 kW. Not exactly true. The true number is 10000 / 1.12 * 84 = 750 KW
Have you even read the benchmarks THG between the P4 and the Athlon XP 64/64 FX they did after it was released? They show how well the Athlon 64 chips do against the higher-clocked P4's, and consistenly recommend AMD's as more bang for your buck.
Are you talking about this article?: AMD's Athlon 64 Has Arrived: the Athlon 64 FX and Athlon 64 (and Intel's P4 Extreme) Reviewed
First, there's no mention of "more bang for your buck" in said article.
And while they do "show how well the Athlon 64 chips do against the higher-clocked P4's", they summarize it as such:
"Summary: The P4 3.2 EE wins 32 times, the Athlon 64 FX-51 15 times - an uncertain 64-bit future for AMD"
It reads like they're heralding AMD's demise!
This gag was done on St. Elsewhere. Doctor Ehrlich (Ed Begley, Jr.) demonstrates the taste test by dipping his finger in a sample. Then the senior Doctor Craig (Mark Daniels) says "nonsense!" and grabs the flask and dips his finger in the sample, tasting it himself.
Then Doctor Ehrlich, horrified by the result of his prank, admits, "Whoa! I switched fingers. I thought you knew."
That was a funny scene, but then most of the Ehrlich/Craig scenes were pretty funny.
-- thinkyhead software and media
It is by Will alone that I set my Mind in motion,
It is by the Beans of Java that the Thoughts acquire Speed,
The Hands acquire Shakes,
The Shakes become a Warning.
It is by Will alone that I set my Mind in motion.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
But (most) Japanese cars are just not as nice to drive as German cars. When you drive a BMW or Mercedes, you feel comfortable in them, whether at 40mph or at 120mph (the speed limit is just a suggestion!), because they glide, whereas the Japanese equivalents just feel that little bit rough. No doubt, the WRX or the Skyline can go faster than most, and are more fun, but as a car to enjoy, the German cars win out overall, because they have the speed, and yet the comfort as well.
I'd love to say that there were better British cars, but things like the MGF don't measure up. The TVR wasn't bad, but its little annoyances means it is not as enjoyable. I can't speak about Aston Martin, having never had the opportunity, but it's not really British any more.
So instead, why don't we just point and laugh at these guys?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For a home user, what do they run that really requires multitasking? What applications need to be multitasked
So you never rip DVDs, convert DIVXs (or other CPU-intensive tasks), convert music files from mp3 into something else, do transcoding to fit mp3s onto smaller devices, or play games that want to grab an entire CPU?
Live a little.
Da Blog
The heat sink contacts a heat spreader that contacts the chip. The pins are connected to very thin wires that connect to the chip. The pins also mechanically attach to an electrically insulating substrate (plastic or ceramic?) that contacts the chip. Neither the wires nor the substrate conduct heat nearly as well as the spreader.
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Try waiting a couple of days for a video to render or an integrated circuit to auto-layout.
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Awesome effort by the THG folks! The equipment used by Sun and Intel for engineering characterization of these die is similar, but uses 3M Floronet and only goes to -40C. If they go use Liquid Helium, they would get closer to absolute zero, but Liquid Helium is more expensive (Helium is a rarer gas than N2). If only we had some Bose Einstein Condensate from Boulder Colorado (The Nobel Prize winner is there), we could cool the processor down to a few nano-Kelvin. -- Ross
Ross Youngblood
I read a bit about him a few different sites. Sounds like an interesting guy.
Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.