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Dell Throws In For The +R/+RW Standard
srothroc writes "Dell has been selling DVD+R burners for a while, but now they're tossing them in on free deals with some decent everyday consumer systems. I wonder if this increased support from one of two companies to pull a profit on PCs is going to tip the scale towards the +R format... If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?"
Uh, they'll have DVDs that won't work on other people's computers. It's not really that big a deal. This is a weird story.
--
RumorsDaily
Dude, you're getting screwed.
True story.
Just like there were two CD-R and CD-RW "standards" that were argued over, a third standard emerged to replace them both. I imagine this is probably what is going to happen here.
Funny how history repeats itself like that.
[insert witty comment here]
Dell threw in a free DVD+RW upgrade on my Inspiron 600m laptop that I bought this June.
If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?
Fuck 'em. My friend never got reimbursed for his choice of a Bernoulli drive, and that was a lot more than 100 bucks down the drain.
Sometimes you bet on the wrong horse. It happens.
--saint
DVDs will forever READ both +R and -R. If -R were to win right now, in 1-2 years you wouldn't be able to buy DVD+R discs. That means you'd have to buy a new drive. That's not unreasonable for 1-2 years.
If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor - Albert Einstein
As unfortunate as that is. +R media tends to be slightly cheaper for some reason, but -R is the more compatible of the two formats. Regardless there are lots of dual-format drives being made and sold at quite reasonable prices these days, so there is no real danger that +R will disappear any time soon, though it probably should.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I get the feeling the world will move on to the next major jump in burning capacity, and probably another format war, rather than actually settle on +R or -R. Unless the industry as a whole decides on one format or the other, and decides to leave a whole section of consumers out in the cold, neither format will "win."
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Apple uses -R, Dell uses +R someone is going to get screwed in the end.
I can't believe this. Someone links to a Dell ad for a free DVD burner, and now all of a sudden, "it's a shift in the industry". What the fuck, April Fool's isn't for another few months!
This is minor. The real question is which DVD-HD format will become the standard. It looks like we're going to have 2 incompatible formats introduced the US, with a 3rd format introduced in China.
I don't know about that. I use my computer exclusively for entertainment (I've got a TV tuner and some auto-recording stuff called furious_tv). So I'd be perfectly ok with DVDs that can only be read by my computer.
It would also be handy to fit DivX/XviD (is that where the name came from!) DVD rips of multiple movies onto a single disc. No more wasted space on MPEG or menus.
And then there are all the games I'd like to backup onto CD which could instead be stored on far fewer DVDs.
So can I have your free DVD burner?
True story.
Well, what always happens to a typical Dell user? Either they don't know better and are content with what they have, or they'll upgrade in a year or two. I don't see the problem here.
Damon,
http://actionPlant.com
I don't see why they don't just do what Apple does. Slap in a DVD-/+RW drive and just don't tell anyone. Add support to the OS and again, tell no one. Then when someone complains it's not there tell them but make sure they tell no one.
If you have a mac running panther you can see if your DVD drive supports whatever format by typing drutil info in the terminal. OS X does not support packet writing, sadly.
P.S. drutil stands for DiscRecording Utility
I am curious if there is a huge difference in the cost of the blank media. I have seen wildly fluctuating prices with the cheapest being about $0.75 for a blank DVD. Thoughts on this? Will this be a factor?
I have yet to encounter someone who NEEDS one of these yet. A lot want one but no one has a need yet.
dvd+r is the winner my friends.
You already can do dvd+r at 8 speed. I still await
8speed dvd-r.
And around April expect dvd+rDL, that will be dual
layers at over 8gb, that also will be READABLE by
anything that can read dvd+r.
And further, its rumored that some of better dvd+r
8 speed drives will be able to burn dvd+rDL with a
firmware update (afterall, thats what Philips
research team did for their tests).
enjoy living in your dvd-r world...
Maybe the people who own the standard (Sony, Philips and Hewlett-Packard), struck a deal with dell to sell only thier standard and thus saturating the market and making sure that their standard had a secure spot in the future?
How long has then "battle" been going on now? I don't see either giong away anytime soon and only after they are replaced by a new disc or medium. They will both sit around and when 1 goes so does the other. In the mean time, the combo drives that burn either format will dominate as their prices reach the same level as the format specific drives.
The Tools Of Ignorance wanna be a tool?
Is multilayer recording capability. If you're really concerned about format buy a +- drive.
I purchased a Dell M60 laptop about 6 months ago since I didn't want to haul a massive desktopw with me everywhere. I made a decision to fork over and get a DVD writer for my laptop which was a 2x (now 4x is available). The problem? Well, my desktop had a Sony +/- writer so there was no concern about which disks I could burn with. Even during the the post Thanksgiving day sales, I think I picked up mostly -R media since it was heavily discounted. My point is, +R only was the wrong choice for my laptop and Dell should be offering a multi-format burner. Last I heard, that is what all the manufacturers were agreeing upon. Oh well, you win some and you lose some.
If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?
At this point in the industry, once Dell has gone full steam ahead with their adoption of a standard like +R over -R, then I think it's not too much of a stretch to start picking Dell's choice as the long term winner. The only question that remains is how long does the long run last anymore before something new comes along?
My next sig will be ready soon, but friends can beat the rush!
Hmmm... these moderators are smarter than I thought. They've actually recognized an old, tired joke that has been taken completely out of context and posted near the top just to see how easy it is to obtain +5, Funny. I tip my hat to you, gentlemen. You're making the world a better place... now just for fun can you mod it +5?
True story.
1) Most users are wrong here. -R is more compatable with set top players.
2) By the time a clear winner is decided, a new format(s) will be in play and the fight will restart.
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
There really isn't much of a "format war" going on. Most DVD devices support both formats without any problem. The rewrite media is a little less compatible but that is to be expected. Besides any new DVD burner supports both formats anyways.
Whoever posted this should be flogged!
The past is just the present only older -me-
seems like most people who even care about this will buy a dual format and avoid the problem altogether.
This will only serve to clog up the media aisle at your local computer store as more DVD+/-R newbs mill about like helpless sheep wondering which box they need to buy. They do not remember what type of DVD burner they have and honestly don't care, but by golly there sure are a hell of a lot of choices on this shelf!
Nothing like technology force-fed to the masses!
MUNIX FOR EVERYONE!!!
My point? Average Joe Luddite won't care until he arrives at home with the incorrect media and gets pissed off.
signatures are for fools with hands
All single-format recorders, such as +RW drives, are effectively end-of-line items, so Dell can buy up inventories at knock-down prices. If they could have got -RW at a buck cheaper, they'd have gone that way, there is no other reason! Jolyon
Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
It really doesn't. There are enough shipped DVD-R and DVD+R drives out there in the world now that you'll be able to buy media for the foreseeable computing future for either. There are enough of each out there now that your current burned DVD's will be readable forever, or at least as long at 5 inch polycarbonate disks are in use. Even the VHS/Beta battle that started 30 years ago and was, for all intents and purposes, over 20 years ago (see http://www.urbanlegends.com/products/beta_vs_vhs.h tml ) doesn't keep me from buying new blank Beta videotapes. They aren't available at Walgreen's, but can be had at larger electronics stores still. The same will be true of DVD-R and DVD+R.
Can you imagine the computing landscape 30 years from now? VHS hasn't changed in that many years, but 30 years ago in the computing field is ancient, ancient history - punched cards, hard-sectored 8 inch 256KB floppies, removable disk packs, and memory capacities that didn't need to be abbreviated to be readable. The likelihood that you'll care about your DVD?Rs at that point is pretty darned low. /frank
And the worms ate into his brain.
Well, I have a spot for the obsolete +R drives between my DC2120 tape drive and my zip drive.
up next: Particle Man vs. Triangle Man
next week: Adam Ant vs. XTC
what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?
1. Ship incompatible hardware for free.
2. Sell the compatible hardware for inflated prices.
3. Profit!
Seriously, Dell sells systems cheaply, but they heavily inflate their prices for components. If they can get people to enjoy the idea of burning DVDs by giving them DVD+R drives, they'll make lots of money when those customers realize that they really need to get DVD-R drives.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
+R/+RW is way ahead of -R, and has been for sometime. It's more compatible now with home DVD players, faster, and more widely used.
If you're getting one for free, take what you can get... but if you are buying a drive, dual-format drives are the way to go. For an extra couple bucks, you get the ability to read/write DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and CDR/CDRWs... You can't go wrong. If +R wins in the long run, there will just be less -R media available for purchase...
Check out our infosecurity industry blog: http://securitymusings.com/
Most of the drives I see these days support both +r/rw and -r/rw, so it is going to be pretty much a non-issue. Besides, you can generally read the other format on the other type of drive, and most people will be using them for internal use only.
Remember 56k modems. There was US Rebotic's X2, and Rockwells K56Flex. Which one was the winner? V90.
Just because something is the norm doesn't mean it should be acceptable. We're already generating enough waste as a society without this sort of give-away of soon-to-be obsolete technology.
The CB App. What's your 20?
Instead of relying on a Steve Jobs interview in Rolling Stone what about going to the source ( HP Q4). Fiorina was so proud that ALL divisions of HP were profitable. Aparently you missed that.
Of course for adoption, being profitable is totally irrelevant. Volume is the important thing.
As for users of previous formats, ask yourself what happend to Apple's users who bought DVD-RAM with their G4.
You mean, "Just as there were two CD-R and CD-RW 'standards' that were argued over, a third standard emerged to replace them both." Like is not a conjunction.
Sony will be the short-term winner with their nice (at least the one I have) dual +/- burner
And so it goes...
And so it goes, -seth
First off, why people don't buy and use more of those multistandard units... it's beyond me. You know, those drives guaranteed to support all formats: -R, -RW, +R, +RW... They're really nice.
:-(
I have a Sony DRU-510 burner, it supports every conceivable format, and works very well.
Second, many units (DVD readers, not writers) that claim that they support only one standard (only -R/RW or only +R/RW) actually do work with the other standard. I don't have exact numbers, but it seems to me that the vast majority of the new drives support de facto all standards. Just try it, you might be suprised.
Then, -R/RW has the advantage of a slightly larger compatibility. There's a lot of slightly older units that, for the majority, support only the "minus" disks.
Every single device that i own and has DVD capabilities is multistandard (knows both "plus" and "minus" disks), however all DVDs that i create for my own purposes are -R, just because of this slightly larger compatibility.
Finally, i wish i had a magic of sorts, to get together all those morons who are responsible for inflicting standard wars on us poor customers. Then i'll only ask to give me, for twenty minutes, a machine gun with lots of ammo. It has to be a model which withstands very long shooting sessions without melting or jamming. After twenty minutes, i'll call you to show you what machine-gun-generated meat pulp looks like.
I'm really pissed off on these stupid issues.
The standards are stupid, more hairbrained ways to make more $$$. But my Dvd burner does both, so I nary worry about such things.
Ubuntu- Linux for human beings.
cheaper... I won out on that one... for what... 4 months before I picked up broadband?
VHS vs Beta
X2 vs Kflex
-R vs +R
Don't you guys have anything better to do?
Really... Ever since the guy stopped building
them in his dorm room, they've sucked.
You gonna buy a computer? Buy a damn
whitebox from someone who knows how to build
good computers. PAY THE EXTRA MONEY...
You'll actually be getting a computer.
You wanna fuck around and dink with shit that's
annoying and never works right... go ahead..
buy a Dell/Gateway/Compaq.. they're all the fucking same.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/113
Quite an interesting read.
The only computers now sold on major retailers shelves, contain either +/- or simply +. The +R media is getting cheaper and the -R more expensive. It is pretty clear where the winning standard will be. Btw Best Buy has a sale this week for a 2800+ Athlon Emachine with 512MB of RAM, a 160Gig HD, and a +/-RW burner for 599$. These prices are getting ridiculous!
probably the same thing that is happening to all those mac users buying superdrives (-r/rw)
I have a Pioneer 105 (dvd-r/-rw only) on an external FW box. I use it with Windows and my tiBook. Whenever I burn any movies at higher than 1x speed, only my Apex DVD player shows it. My Sony ejects it.
Burning media at ever-faster rates is pretty pointless if you can't read it on your DVD player. Unless 8x DVD+r is readable on your DVD player, you have no reason to use anything other than an older and cheaper Pioneer drive like mine.
It's not too awful to wait an hour for your disc to be burnt.
Dell, which has been providing DVD+ drives, is now providing DVD+ drives....I wonder if the fact that Dell isn't doing anything different in regards to DVD+ drives will mean anything in regards to DVD+ drives.
One can only hope that any change in the meaning of this non-change will foster a change that may mean no change. Life as we know it could hang in the balance. Please keep us posted on further effects of anything.
You are being paid to shrill for DELL? Many PC manufacturers, Sony, Gateway, etc. have been offering DVD+/-RW for a long time.
Whether this has anything to do with Dell giving them away at the moment, I don't know, but caveat emptor.
Does this mean *BSD now supports DVD-R?
Etiquette is etiquette. He kills his mother but he can't wear grey trousers.
Will we ever have one standard to rule them all?
This is just another non-issue because Dell doesn't give a rip about slashdot users, who are an extremely small percentage of the marketplace. Few people care. The largest single use of a CD/DVD is simply to load programs like your latest TurboTax or Adobe Photo Elements. Someone who really pushes the envelope may use it for backup, but that's a stretch. Who really watches DVDs on their PC? Maybe in a dorm room, but in the real world, unbless you can buy a laptop with a 50 inch screen, people actually have TV sets and a DVD player.
Will all this converge? Sure, in a few years! But since yer average Dell lasts only three years anyway, it doesn't matter. Fry's sold an Internet ready PC (linux) for $99.95 during the holidays. They are a commodity item. People will just by another one. And by then, we'll have new standards to worry about.
"Standards" is an oxymoron.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
They end up with a free +R drive?
Where's the loss?
- shazow
Given the numbers of both types of drives and the fact that more and more drives are supported both formats, I don't expect either to go away any time soon.
So the question in my mind is, what are the technological differences between the 2 formats?
For data the rewritable DVD-RAM format is supposed to be best although it is not all that widely supported
Mike
This is not BetaMax vs VHS, the media is basically the same, this is simply a format fight.
Writable DVD's are the current new media for data storage and the manufacturers cannot figure where we will be in a year's time? This does not bode well for the long term stability for DVD data storage and needs to be sorted sooner rather than later.
Maybe I've been living with broadband too long, but I've got at least 30 gigs of music. We have a total of 3 120 gig drives spread between 2 machines on our network and they keep pretty tight. Best use I could figure would be backing up archived TV shows (or movies). One of our PC's is the multimedia pc (MythTV based) and that one will fill up pretty quickly if I don't erase programs (I'd like to keep my Fooly Cooly episodes!).
I'm sick, so sorry about the rambling.
To summerize:
1. Back up music files (1000's of mp3!)
2. Back up video's (got an extra copy of my 2001 dvd in case of disaster!)
3. Back up your old fashioned data (always feels good to pull a tar off of home.)
Quack, quack.
Can someone tell me why competition for formats is a bad thing?
The conventional wisdom seems to be that Beta vs. VHS was bad, but over time the amount of money lost by those who bought into Beta is miniscule, while the competition between the two brought the VHS format into peoples' homes much faster than it would have were there no competitor in the first place.
The same thing happened with DVD: when DivX was introduced, that lit a fire under the pants of the DVD manufacturers to lower prices and market the hell out of their product. I imagine we would not yet have $30 DVD players at WalMart were DivX not to have existed back in 1998.
I for one welcome our new overl...er, a format war. Only the early adopters of the loser formats will lose any money---and by definition, early adopters have money to throw around on uncertainty---while the wider public will benefit. Bring it on.
In this particular case, the war between CD-R(W) and CD+R(W) has brought the prices on both to throw-away levels much more quickly than for CD-R(W), which took over 6 years to get from wide introduction to ultra-cheap).
[ home ]
The new Dell DVD +R/+RW drives now come with a stack sensor. When your stack gets too low, it pops up a button to order more.
Dell has said, "Oh yea... all our free devices are ones where you can only get the supplies from us, otherwise, why would it be free?"
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Thats why I got a mulit-format DVD burner. That way either way I can be sure that I have a drive that can burn whatever format wins out.
Make me your friend. All my friends get +1 modifier and I need friends :)
If -R wins out, Dell will make some more cash selling the new drives that customers will be requesting.... that or forcing people to upgrade machines. From Dell's pov, it's can't be all bad.
>>If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?"
They're going to buy new Dell DVD-RW drives (and, later, Dell DVDB-R and DVDB-RW drives when the blue laser standard goes mainstream). Even if DVD-R wins, the DVD+R drives and media aren't going to go bad overnight. And Dell will be there, with a sale on new drives or new DVD-R drives when they do win. (and I do believe -R will eventually be the one that wins.)
Oh, and a funny reply:
They go to jail for violating the DMCA. Cause you know DVD-R drives are only used for pirating PS2 games and Movies -- the nice lady at the MPAA said so!
Just like with many other formats, if one or the other dies, that just means the WRITERS won't support that format, but drives will mature and READ those formats, at least for awhile. The only TRUE losers will be anyone who signed on for a format that had an abysmally small user base. In that case, it's not likely the format will ever find its way into maturing product lines.
I keep hearing that the next generation DVD burners are comming in March. They will be able to burn single-side dual-layer discs therefore increasing capacity to the full 9.7GB. Will there be a new standard for these disk too?
If you're going to quote figures from a site, you might as well get it right. According to DVDrHelp here, -Rs have about 92% compatability, while +Rs have about 86% compatability. Hardly a huge difference. Both RW formats sit at 75% compatability.
Other thread was wrong. Numbers are more like 92/86. Much smaller difference.
Just forget -R. The burning process isnt that safe, you lose more space for multiple sessions (72 and 90MB instead of 2 with +Standard)), both medias cost the same, it uses inferior parity algorith. And by the way I didnt have compatibility-issues. My Pioneer (!!!) DVD-ROM (DVD 116) just reads +R and not -R !!!!! and all DVD-Players that are sold now read both medias. Ricoh, Philips and the others are just the smarter companies. I love their stuff. Schugy
Its only an issue for blanks; the burned DVD's are virtually identical.
More importantly, every new burner supports both formats. So shortly its going to be the cost of media and recording speed differences that will matter.
My drive is 250G, I need to back up 200 of that.
Or are you suggesting I sit there with 250 CD-R's?
Just because you have a piddly little 10G drive, some of us have real computers and need to back up that data AND have it readiliy available to read in backup format.
This story smells like some sort of lame attempt at free adverstising. You suck!
It actually is a huge difference, but most people don't realize why.
As I already explained previously in this post, the "percentage of DVD models" statistic is almost useless for answering questions of compatibility. If I am concerned about playing one disc on many different players, then I don't care about how many player models are compatible; instead I care about how many player units are compatible.
The distinction is subtle but important. Not all player models have the same market share. In fact you will find that the DVD+R-incompatible models tend to have a far larger market share than the DVD-R incompatible models. If you count player models, then your 92/86 figure is accurate. But if you count the number of actual DVD players sold, taking into account the nonuniform market share distribution of DVD player models, you'll find that the actual compatibility difference is something like 95/70, and that really matters to me.
Well too bad for those who will get stuck with those +RW drives. I predict the demise of +RW in favor of -RW. Why? Well, first of all -RW has greater compatibility. Of course, this is not enough. You must also consider the looming blue laser DVD format rolling out. As with everything, there are two standards-
The Blu-Ray standard is being put forth by Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial (aka Panasonic), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung, Sharp, Sony and Thomson Multimedia. Blu-Ray will write and rewrite 27GB per side using a 405nm laser.
NEC and Toshiba put forth their own standard, Advanced Optical Disc,which the DVD Forum has chosen over Blu-Ray. These hold 20GB per side.
I am seeing a lot of conflicting information about whether those numbers are for single layer or not. The people reporting these numbers don't seem to know that a single side has two layers, so I'm reading that AOD can hold anywhere from 20 to 40GB per side. However the consensus seems to be that AOD holds less data than Blu-Ray can, but the advantage of AOD lies in the fact that DVD manufacturers don't have to retool their plants for AOD like they would for Blu-Ray. This is probably one of the larger reasons AOD was accepted by the DVD Forum.
Ok, now after all this babble about next gen DVD, what does this have to do with the subject at hand?
NEITHER of these standards is compatible with DVD+R, and both are backwards compatible with DVD-R. So where are you going to put your data?
-R
end of story
HD-DVD IS the standard as proclaimed by the DVD Forum anyway. When HD-DVD is sold in the U.S. and Europe it will be HD-DVD you see in the stores - nothing else. This is what the movie manufacturers agreed on through the DVD Forum.
My prediction is that Blu-Ray will find its niche in backup applications and video production houses. This is due to it's greater production expense (dual head for compatibility as opposed to HD's single lensing) and better media longevity (sealed discs).
Remember Betacam Vs. VHS? It's the same thing all over again. Betacam is STILL the standard in production houses all over the world but it was VHS that ruled the home front.
As for China's weird-ass format, guess what? No one really cares but the Asian markets and media/players/recorders will be made specifically for those markets as needed. Shocking, I know, I know. Proof? The Asian markets have been ignored by Americans before now. Take a look at the popularity of VCD players over there and you'll see what I mean. How many dedicated VCD players have you seen sold/marketed here?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Everything I've read says +R is more compatible. Did I read the wrong things?
Can anyone give a definitive technical reason why either should be?
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
For us early adopters even as far back as one year ago could not know that DVD+R would pull ahead, because:
DVD-R was first
DVD-R was cheaper
DVD-R media was cheaper
DVD-R was more compatible
So for at least two years, DVD-R had an advantage. However, given how competition works, are you saying/suggesting DVD-R won't catch up, the way DVD+R did? It's a moot point in that my next system will use whatever standard is most advantageous to me, but I do believe that competition is a good thing, and without DVD-R being there first, DVD+R would not have worked so hard to win; and now that DVD+R has the advantage, this will spur DVD-R manufacturers post haste, I think.
GPL Deconstructed
Correction there - Betacam never competed with VHS. It was Betamax that was in competition with VHS, and no studios ever really used it. Betacam SP is whats used in the studios, and being a high res (>400 lines of resolution) format, recording in component video, it was never intended to be a home video format.
Dimension 2400 .27dpi
P4 2.4GHz with 533MHz FSB
Win XP Home
512M RAM (256M standard / 256M free)
40G HD
17" CRT
4x DVD+RW Drive (free upgrade)
Of course there's no AGP slot but still $500 is pretty cheap and a good system for the nongamer. I myself prefer big blue hardware but Dell's pretty good. That's pretty cheap. I'm sure Gateway et al will follow soon.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
...so sad... :P
Anything to do with Microshit or their hard and soft affiliates.
There's positively no need for it, except for migration and translations.
Worse is the people in denial about all the change taking place. A proprietary OS will not be the tablet/notebook/PDA/desktop leader beyond 2005. Even worse still are those who say they're open source but take inveiglers "shortcuts" whenever an opportunity in coding arises to cut corners and sell out the user's privacy and security for a profit.
To all those wintel pundits who say things aren't going to change anytime soon: get a clue and get a life. You had your day and your time is done.
Dell shouldn't choose for us, Dell should enable us to choose. I own a combo drive which supports both standards. My drive cost me less than $90.00 (including rebates). For a company such as Dell to predecide the choice for many people is extremely unfortunate.
Dell is probably getting rid of stagnant DVD+R drives. Dual-format drives are all the rage anyways, because the hardware manufacturers realize that it's a losing race to root for one over the other. It seems the hard-core crowd likes DVD-R, while the unwashed masses see DVD "Plus" and think it's newer/better/faster, and they seem to have more shelf space at Walmart/Bestbuy/.
I really do hope Dell is just liquidating their junk and not stocking more of these half-powered devices. I may be selfish, but I personally prefer DVD- (minus), if only because I've had pioneer DVD- drives for a few years now and have a sizeable stack of DVD archives.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
just buy a dual format burner for a little more money and you wont have to worry
The same people who are scrambling to squeeze the last pennies out of their media catalogs with DRM are the ones screwing up the usability of the media. They never figured out how to standardize audio on a DVD, even though they now distribute audio on DVD in different data formats. And now they're even screwing up the DVD media format, with incompatible DVD-R, +R, and likely more to come. This is what happens when infotainment execs get their competitive paws on the reigns of technology. They don't understand anything except keeping power concentrated in their own boardroom, even when distributing access would make them more money from a unified market. They should just treat all these storage devices are data devices, instead of branding them with a premium, at the expense of compatibility.
--
make install -not war
One can draw from past examples such as Betamax and VHS, but I think people are overlooking the fact that new technologies are already replacing the standard 4.7GB DVD. It is only a matter of time before the market becomes saturated with bigger DVDs and with blue laser technology. The only reason to buy a DVD burner right now is to back up DVD movies. It is still cheaper to use CDs or a tape drive for large amounts of data. DVD just provides an extra layer of convenience.
...will not read +R media. I've tried it on 4 different Samsung-having Xboxes, it's a no-go.
The Samsung drives WILL read DVD-R and DVD-RW without a problem. +R is more compatible, my ass!
A quick Google search reveals the Playstation 2 also favors DVD-R over +R
Maybe it's a conspiracy by the video game system maufacturers... Damn Dell.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
I searched the DELL site and I couldn't find any product or page where they mention DVD+-RW. I would guess that a big company like DELL would offer a drive that supports both DVD+ and DVD- formats when it is available in the market. Most of the drives in the current market support both DVD+ and DVD- formats for as low as $120. It might be the mistake of the technical writers at DELL to refere DVD+-RW as just DVD+R.
I am betting blue laser technology will kill them both. However, thanks to toshiba, there are now two blue laser recording formats too. After a while all the new dvd players will be able to read the then old red laser format and the new format, then the old recorder media will die out. The new blue lasers will be able to do a true hi-def recording, something the current dvd just cant handle. In fact it seems nec has already done the work on making a single laser element to read and write blue and red type disks...
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5129320.html
You're asking the question "what player should I get to maintain compatibility with recordable DVD?" While this is a wonderful question to ask and answer, it's not the same question as the question I am faced with when choosing media.
When choosing media, the question I am faced with is "what media should I use to maintain compatibility with the DVD players that other people (not me) have already purchased?" Your advice about what player models to purchase is solid advice, but completely irrelevant for me in my position. As a video distributor, I'm not in a position to dictate what players other people purchase. I have to choose a disc that plays in their players. I don't get to choose what players they buy, since in most cases the people I send my discs to have already purchased their DVD players.
In 1979, I paid $100 for a 16k upgrade for my
Apple ][ (yes, thats k, not M, not g).
You yung'ns don't remember when a machine with
64k of RAM was considered 'loaded'.
... software vendor. At least 10 times a day, a customer calls in and the drive doesn't see the media they are using, we ask if they have a Dell machine, they do, and we ask if they're using DVD-R, and they are.
I don't care which one Dell uses, but at least put a big sticker somewhere so the consumers know what they are getting.
im just worried what will happen when *R, /R, and ^R come around
Another reason is that Dell is part of the DVD+RW alliance...
http://www.dvdrw.com/alliance/history.htm
Dell has always promoted the DVD+RW standards.
If this is really newsworthy (which is doubtful)this entire topic should have been posted much earlier when the DVD+RW Alliance was created, NOT when Dell ran a promotion on drives.
I think the real story here is that Slashdot is posting Dell advertisements thinly disguised as stories/content.
DVD-R has stupid stuff like "authoring" vs "general" and so on.
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3
DVD-R (which is pronounced "dash R" not "minus R") uses organic dye technology, like CD-R, and is compatible with most DVD drives and players. First-generation capacity was 3.95 billion bytes, later extended to 4.7 billion bytes. Matching the 4.7G capacity of DVD-ROM was crucial for desktop DVD production. In early 2000 the format was split into an "authoring" version and a "general" version. The general version, intended for home use, writes with a cheaper 650-nm laser, the same as DVD-RAM. DVD-R(A) is intended for professional development and uses a 635-nm laser. DVD-R(A) discs are not writable in DVD-R(G) recorders, and vice-versa, but both kinds of discs are readable in most DVD players and drives. The main differences, in addition to recording wavelength, are that DVD-R(G) uses decrementing pre-pit addresses, a pre-stamped (version 1.0) or pre-recorded (version 1.1) control area, CPRM (see 1.11), and allows double-sided discs. A third version for "special authoring," allowing protected movie content to be recorded on DVD-R media, was considered but will probably not happen.
Think "positive" ;-)
nothing.can.stop.me.now
this was a completely informal survey based on the "info cards" at my local electronics store.
the biggest problem seems to be that none of them would pass the "girfriend test", except the $900 tivo/dvdr from pioneer.
If you are one in a million, then there are six thousand people who are just like you.
Actually things are better than they used to be. The new ones seem to be equally compatible.
I stand somewhat erected.
http://www.dvdrhelp.com
Karma means nothing to me, so suck it...
40GB? Can you get one smaller than that anymore?
If you have $500 burning a hole in your pocket, throw some cold water on it and save up a few more buck. These systems are not bad, but they are old stuff on fire sale. With 64 bit systems in the pipeline, you should at least hold out for an 800 FSB.
If you want cheaper, go find a fire sale on AMD 2500+ systems or build one yourself. The only thing that Dell can wave in your face is a nice monitor, for those of you who actually need one, and crappy Microsft software. If you use X and OpenSSH X forwarding like I do, you don't need more than one or two monitors for all the computers you can stack on a shelf.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
1. Let's say +R "wins" in the long run, then they are good to go and happy. 2. Let's say +R "looses" in the long run; then I am sure they will at the very leaset be able to convert the media to another medium. 3. Simplest Answer: If you are getting it for free, does it matter that it's life cycle may someday become obsolete (as most things do)?
" My next house will have no kitchen - just vending machines and a large trash can. "
By the time either format is pushed out, dual format CDRW + DVD+/- R drives will probably be $20. By that time, nobody will complain that the free upgrade they got is now obsolete.
BTW, the thing making either format obsolete will probably be some 30GB optical format, not competition from the other version of DVD recording.
For a technical bunch of guys, you sure are stupid.
Once burned, a DVD+R and DVD-R are IDENTICAL for all intents and purposes. It only matters for the intial burn.
Cripes, you think you'd do a *little* research before you display your ignorance like a peacock.
Fully agree.
:-(
If anything, Beta-vs-VHS delayed and made harder the wide circulation of video tapes. At the time Beta started to make a dent, VHS was already a mature technology, with no room for improvement. Actually, it was Beta which was the better standard, but...
There was zero pressure from DivX over DVD, just because no one bothered to invest in the DivX technology.
You get pressure when there are manufacturers throwing money at a different technology (see Beta-vs-VHS, or GSM-vs-CDMA), but in the case of DivX, no one did that.
Apparently, squarooticus takes the principles of the capitalist economy as axioms and applies them blindly to these particular fields of technology. Those are not axioms, but just rules that sometimes are true, and some other times are not. In this case, they're more untrue than true (albeit it's not an either-black-or-white situation, i concede).
Ah, i oversaw that point.
But yes, you're right. plus-vs-minus really is different from Beta-vs-VHS. And indeed, many DVD players are compatible with both standards, even though they only advertise one of them. This is something not many people know.
I dunno, what did you do when you couldn't get 5.25" floppies anymore?
DVD+/- R/W drives are now WELL under $100 on sale pretty much every week, somewhere.
Both formats are readable in (nearly? all?) new drives.
What does it MATTER if one format dies. If you picked wrong, you're out the $50 it'll cost you to buy a new writer. Those with dual-format writers are out squat. You use up the rest of your media and move on. You'll still be able to read all your old stuff.
Sheesh. This is like people in the 70's wondering "But whatever will I DO whan I can't get leaded gasoline anymore?" You buy a new car, genius. The old model will be a POS by then anyway. There are a few people with nice museum pieces that need to take special care but for 99+% of the population it's a non-issue.
what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?
You wait the two years that it'll take to make them obsolete and then you buy a $19.99 drive (after rebates).
It's just the same as buying a $19.99 CD-RW now when they were $100 a couple of years ago. Prices drop. Does it really matter what you get for free now as you won't be paying current prices for a drive in two years time?
DVD+RW has already won.
You see we have PC parts vendors who simply sell the cheapest items. They only stock +RW+R drives and multyformat drives. No -RW-R. Same for the blancs.
This means that at the wholsalers in Taiwan the +RW+R drives must be cheaper already. Once that is established and sustained it's a done deal. Remember it's not like when you had PC vendors owning the technology and forcing it to market. That era ended days before the 2.88 MB flopy came out.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Apparently you missed this story...
-=+>txtracer<+=-
-Those who do not learn from history are doomed.
Wake me up when they come up with something that holds 50+gb on a single disk. ;) of course by the time they do I'll be up in the terabytes and it'll be too small.
Highschool flashback
Cool you got a new harddrive! How big is it? 300mb, wow, that'll last you forever!
A couple of thought here:
1) Once burned, a DVD+R and DVD-R are IDENTICAL for all intents and purposes. It only matters for the intial burn.
2) it is now trivial with free software to make copies of DVD's that will play in consumer DVDs. Using my friend's Netflix subscription, I've amazed a library of 150 movies for a total cost of, uh. $150.
3) Anybody who needs to back up more than 2 or 3G will surely understand the benefits of DVD+/-R.
Perhaps now you understand?
Anyone ever think they're trying to dump them all before everyone realizes -r -rw are better? I wouldn't put it past dell, I work at the Columbia Journalism IT department, and we've seen this type of dump by Dell in the past.
Once burned a DVD+R and DVD-R are indistinguishable. They're the same.
The RW formats are very incompatible with the bulk of DVD-ROM players not able to read them.
The only place where DVD+R might have an issue is in first gen DVD players, but anything made in the last 4-5 years is *FINE*.
This is mindless fearmongering. And if you're being serious, then you're very parochial about your information; it certainly doesn't reflect industry standards and norms.
they will both be out in dual formats..
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
About 75% of the people here on /. are ignorant; they think that the +R or -R means the drives can only be read in the corresponding type of drive; which is untrue. Once written, the disks are for all practical purposes, the same.
The -R/RW crowd has produced multiformat but that's not proof that -R/RW lost. What are the volumes or +R/RW only versus -R/RW prior to -R/RW's demise? Pioneer hasn't given't up on its format but by your logic it has.
Wonder how Apple continues to ship -R/RW devices?
One consequence of this is that you can read and write them at the same time. There are some DVD-RAM recorders that provide time shifting, i.e. you can start watching a recording even before it's finished.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
why would dell tie to a single format?
for decades after 78 RPM records were discontinued in mass marketing, you still saw turntables with a 78 speed on 'em and a 10 inch size preset for the automatics.
Betamax/Video Home System probably could have been the same way if the cassette shells were the same size and agreement on tape head size could have been accomodated...of course the analog VTR is a very complex beast mechanically, but if one or the other had converted to the same media size, then unification would have been easier.
In the case of the removable optical disc world, that's been forced because of the size of the original Compact Disc system in the 1980s.
You pick to do all drive and fuhgetaboutit.
It was bundled and it still reads many formats.
Won't happen anyway.
Since sub $150 multiformat drives have been available since the summer if not earlier Dell is doing a real diservice to their customers by trying to make a few extra dollars in profit by only selling +RW drives. Having to explain why DVDs made on my sister's Dell may not work on some DVD players was not fun and is certainly a strike against Dell.
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to make claims that DVD-R can "be read in almost anything". Believe me.... I went through a bunch of hassle trying to make a DVD movie that played back properly on the DVD players I had around here (and the ones my friends and family owned). Just for that limited scope of usage, DVD-R had issues. For one, I had a fairly expensive Toshiba DVD set-top player that didn't seem to work with any recordable media at all. My Playstation 2 would at least attempt to play movies on DVD-R media, but it had problems reading as it got towards the end of almost-full discs. It would begin stuttering and skipping, and usually just freeze up at some point.
I also tried DVD+R though, and it's decidedly LESS compatible than -R for this type of thing. Where +R (and +RW) shine is with a better feature-set and design for working with packet-writing data.
I think the bottom line is, compatibility for *both* formats will only improve as people get rid of their old DVD set-top players and replace them with newer models. Most of the problems lie in what the firmware is capable of that's inside the player siting on someone's TV set.
"so a +R burner is great if you are after data-only.. which most people are."
Once burned virtually every DVD player in the world can read both DVD+R and DVD-R. No difference. The same. El-equalo. No dee-france.
I mean, dude, the drives are under $100 bucks now; what do you care about this non-issue at this point?
"I dare you right now buddy. burn a -R and a +R disc. go out to best buy and try to play both. the -R has a Massively higher sucess rate."
Dude, at work we pass around movies on DVD+R's all the time...they can be read by X-Box, PS2, All Sony Players, Ever stinking chinese player. The only laptop that had an issue is an older Apple laptop, but apple thinks different. RW's are definitely a problem in older players. Every Japanese player. I mean, we're hard-pressed to find something a +R WON't work on.
Are my data points scientific? No. But if we've tested on 35 drives, and the only problem has been Apple, then I think we have a pretty good sample set.
Perhaps you're using cheap-ass media. Try something brand-named, and don't burn at 4x.
Toshiba's have well known numerous problems reading any recorded media and have a long history of this. I have an expensive Toshiba set-top that doesn't read anything except commerical produced CD's or DVDs. So I basically went out and bought a cheap ass Samsung unit. It had zero problems reading anything that I burned.
I loved that Toshiba but will never buy one again. It's amazing in this age that they still have those problems. Toshiba needs to get with the times.
From a marketing perspective, I'd rather be selling a "plus" format than a "minus" format.
sorry to sound paranoid, but have you considered that it may be intentional incompatibility?
Dell has put it's bet on the +r/+rw standard for DVD's for over a year now. If you read on their HW boards or talk to their tech support/sales geeks (if you get one in America, anyway), have held off on any rewriteable or writeable DVD's until the + models were available. They thought the + standard was superior and didn't want to be stuck, like HP, with issuing free upgrades to everyone who bought a -DVD.
You read their user forums and they'd be bitching about no writeable DVD support and saying they didn't care if + wasn't ready, they'd rather have "-" and worry about compat later. Dell held firm and said "+" only. Now they are coming through on it and even throwing them in for free, sounds like, to make up, perhaps, for the long wait.
Dell is in the driver seat now. They no longer have to go out on limbs on sketchy technology -- and they don't. They can also afford to alienate the home market by dividing the business and home markets with feature sets that make top end inspirons unsuitable for business and make business models more expensive and less technologically attractive for bleeding edge tech lovers.
They don't have alot of credible competition in the direct-to-consumer market so they are getting more in a position of being able to dictate terms and be downright consumer hostile.
Had a horrible experience with them in purchasing a new laptop where they mucked up the order -- they refused to allow a replacement to be sent until the old one was sent back and my account was fully credited which didn't make life easy (since I'd already moved all my stuff over and reconfig'ed to the new system). Then, by the time I went back, they took all compatible laptops off the market and replaced their high end laptops with wide screen units that sported a digital interface for a then, (and now only high priced), external monitor. Since I'd just purchased a 1600x1200 LCD only a year earlier I didn't feel like dumping my investment even if there were monitors that were 1900x1080 (or whatever the res is). The first laptop that comes with a
standard 4:3, (1600:1200) interface has no DVI out nor a docking station -- the only that was offered was a USB port expander with 10Mbit ethernet (oh so state of the art!...as I ponder upgrading my server-"workstation" (laptop) link to 1Gbit because 100Mb is too slow).
I asked their sales people who made their system design decisions, and I was told customers -- I said, I'm a customer -- how do I make my input known? No one knew. Sales, Tech, India, Texas, Alabama...even wrote a note to pres Michael...no response.
Seems they don't need customer input to make their design decisions...it was great toying with 1 of their sales drones when they answered the phone and asked me "Hi, what can we build for you today?"....
That sales motto doesn't apply anymore, as the sales person quickly realized.
I deal with professional DVD creation and archival for a living. Believe me, people do NOT want to be re-encoding their video in perpetuity, and do want maximum lifespan and compatibility.
DVD+R is not the most compatible format. It's not even sanctioned by the DVD Forum, which is the official body that determines DVD standards. All of the rewriteable formats have even less compatibility. DVD-RAM has the worst compatibility of all despite having good potential as an archival medium. This doesn't mean that media will in some way be limited in supply in the near future, but it does mean that one should prevail for the sake of the data being put on it. Here is what you need to have maximum compatibility and datalife for DVD videos:
1. A good DVD-R blank like Verbatim Datalife Plus or MAM-A Silver/Gold Archive DVD-R. These have data life in excess of 100 years, but more importantly stand a far better chance in regular use to last far longer than the $0.50/blank generic junk that's out there right now. Of course, you also need to store it in a temperature-stable low-humidity zero-UV zero-light environment.
2. Video encoded in one of the standard DVD-compliant resolutions, framerates and data rates, most preferrably 720x480 29.97fps MPEG-2 with IBP Group-of-Frames no longer than 0.6 seconds.
3. Audio encoded either in 48kHz 16-bit PCM stereo or 192kbit/s Dolby Digital AC-3 stereo. Most DVD software is too cheap to use AC-3, so they frequently use MPEG-1 Layer 2 audio, which is not compatible in most players. Using PCM requires a huge amount of space on the DVD which requires either a smaller video or lower encoder quality, though it is 100% compatible.
4. DVD-Video bit asserted. Some older players refuse to play anything that identifies as DVD-ROM. This is a bit of a "trick" but in reality can help compatibility.
5. Turning on the verification step in the burning software to ensure that the DVD data was written properly.
Do all of this and you will have the best chance of keeping your videos over the long term. If it's just data, eliminate steps 2-5, rinse and repeat, though for photographs you may want to have a DVD slideshow regardless. It's certainly better than the prospect of severely degraded VHS tapes that have little hope of recovery and are notoriously difficult to encode without fancy time base correctors, comb filters, software filters, and a lot of experimentation and coddling during the capture process to refine parameters. How much worse would it be to record a DVD that isn't compatible with your standard player today and, worse, anything left behind later on? It's not worth the risk.
. If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?"
I bought a Dell Dimensions 2350 (Pentium 4) came with integraded graphics.
I wanted to upgrade (add video card) to find out they ripped out the AGP port (like wtf??)
So really, I don't think Dell gives a damn about the future
Candle burns its brightest in the dark
Doesn't mean a single thing, not in the least.
IBM has lots of patents on their microporocesor technology that they use in the manufacturing of PowerPC chips. Guess who they've licensed a lot of their technology to... Intel and AMD.
Apple licenses a lot of Intel technology.
It is VERY common in the tech community to license your technology to your competitors. These tech companies will take the revenue streams where ever they can find them.
Let's face it...we should be thankful that Dell didn't try to shove some other piece of hacked non-standard hardware down everyone's throats: "Now, free with your purchase of any Dell Dimension desktop...our new DVD '@'R drive!!"
"There are two different types of retailers.. Discount retailers, and MSRP retailers..."
WOW! Boy have you been programed. Here's the deal, retail is retail no matter how they sell themselfs, their still retailing product.
Spreads are as high as the market will allow, "discount" or "retail" store.
A large retailer tell the manufacturer or wholesaler what to make MSRP.
EVERYONE work on a cost VS price spread, regardless of what they've told you.
Distressed product is turned to find new product, with better margins.
In 90 days a product depreciates enough to make selling at "cost" profitable.
Marked up instead of marked down?-- You watch too much TV
Companies manage assets, sell for as much as the market will bear, dump aged product in search of fresh product with better spreads.
but wudo i no
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
and did you by anychance use the cheapest dvd-r media you could find?
try the most expensive, things are very different.
+----------------- | What is the question!
I'm just getting DVD-R/RW nowadays and don't really see a reason to bother with the other ones. My DVD burner can of course read and write to both formats, but at least where I live, - discs are actually cheaper than + discs and + discs don't work with most standalone DVD players found in home theatres etc. A salesman told me it was because only DVD-R was an approvad standard by the DVD Forum and that's why all standalone players definitely play those, and only if you're lucky the others.
And both can store equal amounts of data as well.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!