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DVD CCA Drops Case; DeCSS Not a Trade Secret

jon787 writes "EFF is reporting that the DVD CCA is dismissing its case against Andrew Bunner. He was being prosecuted under California's trade secret laws for redistributing DeCSS. This means that the DVD CCA has finally conceded that CSS is no longer a secret, something the rest of us have known for a few years now."

362 comments

  1. One down... by irving47 · · Score: 4, Funny

    SCO to go...

    --
    I had a sucky sig.
  2. DeCSS by (1337)+God · · Score: 5, Funny

    /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum <root@ihack.net> */
    /* */
    /* Thanks to Phil Carmody <fatphil@asdf.org> for additional tweaks. */
    /* */
    /* DVD-logo shaped version by Alex Bowley <alex@hyperspeed.org> */
    /* */
    /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */

    #define m(i)(x[i]^s[i+84])<<

    unsigned char x[5] ,y,s[2048];main(
    n){for( read(0,x,5 );read(0,s ,n=2048
    ); write(1 ,s,n) )if(s
    [y=s [13]%8+20] /16%4 ==1 ){int
    i=m( 1)17 ^256 +m(0) 8,k =m(2)
    0,j= m(4) 17^ m(3) 9^k* 2-k%8
    ^8,a =0,c =26;for (s[y] -=16;
    --c;j *=2)a= a*2^i& 1,i=i /2^j&1
    <<24;for(j= 127; ++j<n;c=c>
    y)
    c

    +=y=i^i/8^i>>4^i>>12,
    i=i>>8^y<<17,a^=a>>14,y=a^a*8^a<<6,a=a
    &nbs p; >>8^y<<9,k=s[j],k ="7Wo~'G_\216"[k
    &7]+2^"cr3sfw6v;*k+>/n."[k>>4]*2^k*257/
    &nbsp ; 8,s[j]=k^(k&k*2&34)*6^c+~y
    ;}}

    --

    Background: 28/M/Bi-Sexual; Owner of a Linux company; MBA Harvard 2003; B.S. Comp Sci MIT 2000
    1. Re:DeCSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sooo... This means I can print my own T-Shirt with this on it?

    2. Re:DeCSS by xargoon · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe they will sue them for abusing the DVD logo and trademark instead..

    3. Re:DeCSS by Aardpig · · Score: 4, Funny

      The fact that you can easily do ASCII art with C shows what a god-awful language it is. Nice program, though!

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    4. Re:DeCSS by LordNimon · · Score: 1

      Oh please, all it shows is that C doesn't care a whole lot about whitespace.

      --
      And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
      To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    5. Re:DeCSS by Crazy+Eight · · Score: 1

      This is the first time I've encountered a nick like yours without chuckling at it. Well, I'm still chuckling, but I'm chuckling with you.

    6. Re:DeCSS by Bullet-Dodger · · Score: 2, Funny
      The fact that you can easily do ASCII art with C shows what a god-awful language it is. Nice program, though!

      For your own sake, never ever use Perl.

    7. Re:DeCSS by shaitand · · Score: 4, Funny

      The difference is I bet the guys who put this out there INTENDED for it to be ASCII Art. With perl I write my app first and then go back to see what images I can find hidden within it.

    8. Re:DeCSS by Wolfier · · Score: 1

      I believe you can also do this with Java! It shows what a god-aweful language it is...

    9. Re:DeCSS by sik0fewl · · Score: 1

      Wow. Up until I was sure Perl was the only language one could do ascii art in.

      --
      I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
    10. Re:DeCSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your a fag

    11. Re:DeCSS by neilio · · Score: 1

      sweeeet. does it compile? I don't have the energy to check...

    12. Re:DeCSS by vidnet · · Score: 1
      Are you saying whitespace and linebreaks should be part of the language? Should you be unable to indent with four spaces instead of a tab? Should you be unable to wrap a long line into two? Should "c = a+b" be illegal, and "c=a+b" accepted?

      If not, you can easily do ascii art with it.

    13. Re:DeCSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that you can easily do ASCII art with C shows what a god-awful language it is. Nice program, though!

      You would rather write programs in a language that requires MS Office?

    14. Re:DeCSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clevor :)

      But Charles M. Hannum was a total bastard when it came to him and Theo De Raadt with NetBSD back in 95. He probably thought OpenBSD would never amount to anything... hrrm is that openSSH I see implemented in NetBSD? oh I think it is! doink!

    15. Re:DeCSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perl Psychoanalysis?

    16. Re:DeCSS by npsimons · · Score: 1
      The fact that you can easily do ASCII art with C shows what a god-awful language it is.


      No, it shows how flexible a language C is. I dare you to try doing the same thing with Python or Java (or Scheme, or LISP, or . . . ).

    17. Re:DeCSS by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Heheh, that old chestnut.
      I'm flattered that it still gets mentioned.
      Thanks for keeping the comments at the top of it.

      Phil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    18. Re:DeCSS by jhrath · · Score: 1

      If so, that will happen according to the "Only in America" term. :)

    19. Re:DeCSS by Anepthia · · Score: 1

      Nope, it just shows C is adaptable.

  3. Wait, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know I'm going to get RTFA everywhere, but does this mean decss is legal?

    1. Re:Wait, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It means that you can now legally play your legally purchased DVD's on your legal Linux platform.

      Btw, IANAL.

    2. Re:Wait, by kfg · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's actually not a simple question which reading the article would fully resolve.

      What it means is that the DVD CCA acknowledges that the keys and algorithm of CSS are no longer secret and thus have no protection under law as such.

      In effect it means that said keys and algorithm can be published under certain circumstances without risk of action.

      But that isn't exactly the same thing as saying that DeCSS is legal in the US.

      KFG

    3. Re:Wait, by Triumph+The+Insult+C · · Score: 4, Funny

      according to sco, that'd be your legally purchased DVD's on your illegal linux platform.

      i can't wait for the ibm lawyers to finish with darl and friends. they'll make goatse.cx look like a cakewalk

      --
      vodka, straight up, thank you!
    4. Re:Wait, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      they'll make goatse.cx look like a cakewalk

      Did you have to bring that up? I know it's a cultural phenomenon and all, but I'm having dinner. Insensitive clod.

    5. Re:Wait, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm seriously thinking about driving to Utah to kick Darl's ass.

    6. Re:Wait, by toast0 · · Score: 1

      Well, I'd say it makes DeCSS probably legal. If we take the argument that CSS effectively limits copying of DVDs (or however the exact wording is), then the DMCA would apply.

      However, what makes CSS effective? Why, it's trade secret status. Encryption is not effective at doing anything other than waste time if everybody knows the keys and the algorithm.

    7. Re:Wait, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, i'm in phoenix. it's a few hours drive, but it'd be worth it. and i'm a bsd'er too!

  4. Full Press Release by mpav · · Score: 5, Informative

    Full Press release is available here.

  5. distro's by byrd77 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    so does this mean the varios linux distro's will be able to include a dvd player by default? could be a boon to wider acceptance on the desktop, especially at home

    --
    - Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero.
    1. Re:distro's by gnuadam · · Score: 1

      MPEG2 is still patented, right? Free version still not possible I think (could be wrong tho).

      --
      You say :wq, I say ZZ. Why can't we all just get along?
    2. Re:distro's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You still need to license the technology. It's just not a trade secret anymore.

    3. Re:distro's by 74nova · · Score: 1

      but there is free stuff out there to do mpeg2, so what gives?

      --
      use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
    4. Re:distro's by ElGnomo · · Score: 2, Informative

      you can already play DVDs with mandrake 9.2. Dont remember the app's name though. Is this feture really missing in most distros?

    5. Re:distro's by Aardpig · · Score: 2, Informative

      IANAM, is there a mathematical term for the shape of a Pringle?

      Yes, it's a saddle point, specifically one for which d^2[f]/dx^2 and d^2[f]/dy^2 differ in sign, where the surface is described by z = f(x,y).

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    6. Re:distro's by Loki_1929 · · Score: 5, Funny

      " so does this mean the varios linux distro's will be able to include a dvd player by default?"

      Yep, as soon as we can find a DVD player in this damn spaghetti System V code.

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    7. Re:distro's by gnuadam · · Score: 4, Informative

      As far as I understand it, they exist always under threat. Again, I might be mistaken, but I really think mpeg2 is patented.

      Ah, yes, yes it is patented.

      --
      You say :wq, I say ZZ. Why can't we all just get along?
    8. Re:distro's by mattdm · · Score: 2, Informative

      Errr, why? What form of intellectual property is holding it back? (Other than the mpeg2 issue mentioned elsewhere.) If it *was* a trade secret, it can't have been copyrighted. Trademark law doesn't seem applicable, and I haven't heard of any CSS patents....

    9. Re:distro's by 74nova · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      well, shoot, now i have to change my sig, eh?

      thanks, tho.

      now watch, youll get modded up "informative" and this post will get modded down "offtopic" even if i were to add something ontopic below.

      --
      use your turn signal! you people act like it's divulging information to the enemy
    10. Re:distro's by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Isn't decrypting without a license still illegal under the DMCA (in the US)?

    11. Re:distro's by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Probably not. CSS may not be a trade secret any longer, but there's also the problem that under the DMCA any open source DVD player could be considered a circumvention device and thus illegal.

      The DVD CCA and motion picture studios were separately suing (or threatening to sue) people over both issues: the trade secret and the redistribution of a circumvention device. I got a C&D letter about the later myself. 2600 magazine was sued on grounds of the later also. Unfortunately 2600 lost, and they lost on appeal too. But no circumvention case has gone to the supreme court yet.

    12. Re:distro's by Sloppy · · Score: 1
      All it means the Linux distros won't get sued by DVDCCA over the trade secret issue.

      But the Linux distros would still be trafficking in a tool that bypasses CSS without authorization from the copyright holder. Thus, the copyright holder of any CSS-protected movie (i.e. the MPAA) could still sue them under the terms of DMCA.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    13. Re:distro's by Natalie's+Hot+Grits · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The DMCA does not disallow users to decrypt works for which they have purchased a license to. If you legally obtain a DVD, there is no law which states you cannot decrypt it with any method provided you do not distribute the work, or display it in public. The act of purchasing the DVD means you are authorized to decrypt the dvd by any means under the home recording act and fair use doctrine of the supreme court. The DMCA SPECIFICALLY states that all decryptions which are covered under the US Supreme Court "Fair Use" Doctrine are not to be illegal or prosecuted. Until the supreme court chimes in and says it is illegal to decrypt legally licensed works, it will always be innocent until proven guilty..

      On the issue of DeCSS DISTRIBUTION: There has yet to be any ruling on the validity of appeals courts ruling that DeCSS distribution breaks the DMCA. Until the DMCA's clause which prohibits decryption tool distribution is proven constitutional (in which case the Supreme court would have to take back the fair use doctrine, which is unlikely, but not unprecedented) it will always be legal to distribute such tools. In all cases where this has come up, the DoJ has stopped short of taking it to the supreme court. Until companies are disallowed to lobby the department of justics, prosecution under false pretenses will always be an issue in America (and it is still illegal BTW).

      There is a problem in america when people think things are illegal just because some company says it is. Just remember... there has been no court ruling which says that distribution of decryption tools is infringing on anyone's copyrights.

      Since district courts cannot rule a law constitutional or unconstitutional, that particular clause of the DMCA has not yet been able to hold much weight. The MPAA will never allow the DMCA to be taken to the supreme court. This is why they sued 2600.com, and not a bigger corporation who has in the past distributed knowingly DeCSS.

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but Elcomsoft was aquitted of all charges in its adobe e-book reader case, which has nearly identical case background to the DeCSS.

      Now.. the fact that companies don't want to risk being sued, that is their decision to make. But the facts are that nobody can be held liable for a law which does not even comply with basic supreme court doctrine. You cannot be sued under copyright law unless you are copying works. And you cannot be brought up upon charges for crimes against the state without the department of justics getting involved. You won't find John Ashcroft doing that to a company like RedHat or Mandrake wrt DeCSS. There is too much risk of it going to the supreme court and getting shot down.

      The ONLY target the DMCA can touch now is distributers without a good track record. And that is just the reason all DeCSS cases which have supreme court merit will be dropped by the DoJ forever until eternity.

      --
      Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
    14. Re:distro's by numark · · Score: 1

      There's also free stuff out there to do mp3 (LAME). Read the documentation behind it, though, and you'll find that LAME uses patented algorithms that require a license. Look at how many software programs use LAME freely, however.

      --
      Want Slashdot headlines on your site? Try SlashHead
    15. Re:distro's by Geek+of+Tech · · Score: 1
      Mplayer? (or gmplayer if you type it in konsole)...

      --
      Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
    16. Re:distro's by Suppafly · · Score: 1

      Most opensource programs use decoding and encoding technology that is 99% compatible with the patented technology, but was developed independantly.

    17. Re:distro's by mindstrm · · Score: 1

      Not really.. it must be primarily a circumvention device, something a software DVD player can hardly be considered.

      In other words, it does the exact same thing any OTHER DVD player does... the same way, so if it's circumvention device, so is any other dvd player.

      The original issue was the publishing of the DeCSS code.

      I still thik if the original publishing of the code had been in the form of a fully working player, there would have been no case in the first place.

    18. Re:distro's by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1


      Not really.. it must be primarily a circumvention device, something a software DVD player can hardly be considered.

      In other words, it does the exact same thing any OTHER DVD player does... the same way, so if it's circumvention device, so is any other dvd player.


      They will consider an open source software dvd player a circumvention device. Its already been tried. Look for the slashdot stories about the livid project being shut down in October-November 1999.

      The issue is that whatever CSS key the open source player uses to decrypt the DVD is out in the open with open source software. That is how the whole thing got started. Someone reverse engineered a CSS key out of the Xing DVD player software (a DVD-CCA licensed closed source program). See this for more info.


      The original issue was the publishing of the DeCSS code.

      I still thik if the original publishing of the code had been in the form of a fully working player, there would have been no case in the first place.


      I had the livid sources on my site, and documents about the CSS format. The lawyers wanted it all down.

    19. Re:distro's by Troed · · Score: 1

      It's trivial to break the CSS encryption in real time without the use of a key. This has already been done - thus you don't need a key distributed with the player (or at all).

    20. Re:distro's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean you can finally play DVD's in Mandrake without having to search for dvdcss? Maybe I'll give it a try again then.

    21. Re:distro's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so does this mean the varios linux distro's will be able to include a dvd player by default? could be a boon to wider acceptance on the desktop, especially at home/I.

      No...all it means is that CSS-2 encrypted discs should be hitting the shelves in the very near future.

    22. Re:distro's by a24061 · · Score: 1

      I haven't tried playing DVDs on my Linux box yet. But I read recently that all new DVD-R drives are region-locked after 5 changes. How do you get around this? Is it still possible to buy region-free DVD-R drives? Or does an improved version of libdvdcss somehow circumvent this?

    23. Re:distro's by toast0 · · Score: 1

      If your drive is the wrong region, you still get data, the drive just won't decrypt it for you. Libdvdcss decrypts the data for you.

    24. Re:distro's by tiger99 · · Score: 1
      Good point, I always thought that decrypting on any hardware or software you have at home for personal use would be untouchable by law, anywhere. In theory, you could construct your won DVD player at home, and why would that be illegal? You could also tap into the digital datastream in a commercial DVD player, just prior to the DAC for example, to get true unencrypted but still digital video. Again, why would that be wrong to use personally? And why did anyone think that doing the same thing in software instead would be outlawed?

      IMHO they need expert engineers, as well as lawyers, to be reviewing prospective legislation for stupid errors such as this, before the politicians, who are rarely technically astute, decide.

      IMHO the fact remains, as you seem to be reinforcing, that when you buy or hire a DVD, you are entitled to play it in any way you want, with any equipment you want, for private or personal use. That is how copyright applies to a book, for example, you can read it under daylight, tungsten or fluorescent light, indoors or out, with a magnifer if you need one.... I have always thought that the same must apply to software and entertainment media, and indeed would apply in all countries which are signatory to the Berne convention, so I am amazed that this piece of nonsense ever became law.

      Of course, using the book analogy, it might become illegal to distribute photocopiers, but not to keep one at home for private use.......

    25. Re:distro's by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1

      DVDCCA-compliant drives enforce region coding by refusing attempts to read sectors that aren't flagged as accessible in the current region, and they support CSS by refusing to reveal the disc and title keys without going through a cryptographic handshake. They do not perform CSS decoding in any circumstances.

    26. Re:distro's by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1


      Yeah that is true nowadays. Although that definitely violates the DMCA.

    27. Re:distro's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Until the DMCA's clause which prohibits decryption tool distribution is proven constitutional ... it will always be legal to distribute such tools.

      Actually it works the other way around. Laws are assumed to be constitutional until proven otherwise in court. Nice try, though.

      A better way around it is to prove that DeCSS fails to meet the definition of a violation of the DMCA as it stands. I'll bet there are already people working on that.

  6. So if something is released to the public... by cartzworth · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...whether or not it is by the company that created it, it ceases to be a trade secret in the case of proprietary encryption schemes?

    1. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. (Yale has a nice 20,000ft view on patents vs. trade secrets http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:EHAVDG4IR20J: www.yale.edu/ocr/invent_guidelines/patent_vs_trade _secret.html+trade+secret+publication&hl=en&ie=UTF -8). Not only that, the company that created it cannot patent it if they've been selling something using the trade secret for more than one year.

    2. Re:So if something is released to the public... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Informative

      The entire point of a "trade secret" is that it is secret. Trade secrets do not enjoy copyright or patent protection: both of those require that you disclose that which you are attempting to protect. I mean, you can't tell the patent office "I've got this way cool invention that will make me a billion dollars and I want patent protection but I don't want to tell you or anyone else how it works." Full disclosure is part of the process: your invention may be trivial , totally unoriginal, or absolutely brilliant, but you do have to disclose it in your patent app.

      If you choose to NOT seek patent or copyright protection and choose to protect it yourself, you are SOOL if the secret gets out anyway. For example, Coca Cola takes extreme measures, both within its' organization and without, to prevent anyone from learning the actual formula for Coke, because they've never patented it and if it does get out they would lose their monopoly on the Coke taste lickety split.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    3. Re:So if something is released to the public... by taustin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Trade secrets do not enjoy copyright or patent protection.

      I don't know what kind of dope you're smoking, but it must be good stuff. Copyright always applies, published or not.

    4. Re:So if something is released to the public... by The+Vulture · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is somewhat simplistic, but copyright covers the implementation of the idea, not the idea itself (that's where a patent would come in).

      So if a trade secret is released, I can implement it in my own way, and not run afoul of copyright laws.

      -- Joe

    5. Re:So if something is released to the public... by femto · · Score: 1

      Like this sort of extreme measure? :-)

    6. Re:So if something is released to the public... by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Obviously something that has been revealed is no longer a secret, but that doesn't mean someone can't be sued successfully for revealing the information.

      Otherwise the whole purpose of having a trade secret would be circumvented and no companies would bother with it.

      I haven't followed this case closely, but I doubt that any NDA's were violated. I suspect that that was the primary weakness of the case.

    7. Re:So if something is released to the public... by lawyamike · · Score: 2, Informative

      First, you are correct inasmuch as your post implies that copyright applies regardless whether a creator has sought its protection. Unlike a patent, copyright protections attach as soon as a creative work is set into a tangible form.

      Second, though, the original poster is correct that copyright cannot apply to unpublished or unrevealed works. That is, a story that one creates and recites without fixing to tangible form is not protected by copyright, but the same story published in text (or even recorded into some other tangible form) is protected.

    8. Re:So if something is released to the public... by wfberg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Trade secrets do not enjoy copyright or patent protection.

      I don't know what kind of dope you're smoking, but it must be good stuff. Copyright always applies, published or not.


      The word "secret" refers to the content, not the "tangible" form. Let's say you have a secret; "Dear diary, last night I robbed the 7-11." If I find your diary and rephrase that secret - as in "The 7-11 was robbed by taustin last night" - that's bona fide freedom of information right there.

      Obviously in the case of CSS the DeCSS implementation wasn't a direct lift of any existing code; it was reverse-engineered, and not copied from existing code.

      Freedom of information(gathering) is one of the basic tenets of democracy; without it, there is no free press. Of course, there are always companies looking to infringe upon it, even to the extent of pushing for laws that establish so-called "database rights" or pretending that trade secrets are secret when they're not secret any more.

      Also note that the US government has a lot of files that are secret, but not copyright protected.

      IANAL but I belief this is a case of "cattus ex sacculo est". (the cat's out the bag)

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    9. Re:So if something is released to the public... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Pretty much. Put it this way, it's been over a hundred years and people are still trying to steal it.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    10. Re:So if something is released to the public... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Other way around. Copyrights cover ideas, PATENTS cover implementations. That was why, a long time ago, you could not receive a patent unless you could demonstrate a working invention, i.e., an implementation. Personally, I think the removal of that requirement has been the source of a lot of recent problems with patents in the U.S.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    11. Re:So if something is released to the public... by updog · · Score: 1
      prevent anyone from learning the actual formula for Coke, because they've never patented it and if it does get out they would lose their monopoly on the Coke taste lickety split.

      Frankly, the formula doesn't really matter. It's a friggin cola, which all contain water, sugar, caramel color, and caffeine. What really makes Coke so popular is the billions it spends in marketing.

    12. Re:So if something is released to the public... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      No need to be insulting, unless it makes you feel better. And you're right of course, BUT if you apply for a copyright (thereby registering your work with the United States Patent and Trademark Office) you have to disclose enough of your work to make it identifiable should it be necessary to prove our ownership of the idea. That can be substantially more difficult in the case of a trade secret, where there is no official documentation of your work. Yes, technically, you have copyright, but try proving it in the case of a trade "secret" that is released to the public, particularly if it turns out that your "secret" isn't so original after all.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    13. Re:So if something is released to the public... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, it does matter, and the secrecy of that formula is why Coke is able to spend those billions and get a return on the investment. If it became known that the precise formula used by Coca Cola Corporation to make their product were common knowledge, said product would be come significantly less valuable. Someone may very well have already hit upon their formula, but they'll never, ever, admit it.

      I don't drink the stuff anyways. Like you said, it's basically colored, flavored sugar-water. Not healthy.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    14. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      Methink the so called "reverse engineering" piece is a little to free as of today. I mean, the guy obviously didn't do it "Black Box", right? He probably did disassemble some software player to see what was going on...

      Of course, for such a noble cause, it is a noble mean. But I really doubt that the guy did come up with the whole algorithm just having a DVD-ROM and a DVD in his hands (And a computer of course).

    15. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The alleged "secret" was the crypto scheme, not DeCSS. Jon Johanssen is the copyright holder of DeCSS. Copyright was irrelevant to the case.

    16. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 1

      The entire point of a "trade secret" is that it is secret. Trade secrets do not enjoy copyright or patent protection: both of those require that you disclose that which you are attempting to protect.

      Erm well no. Unless you mean that Microsoft is about to disclose the source code to Windows.

      Rich.
    17. Re:So if something is released to the public... by wolrahnaes · · Score: 1

      Nope. You are the one who is wrong.

      Patents do cover the ideas, and copyright covers the implementation.

      Lets say you came up with a new video codec. You can patent the codec, but the patent process would require releasing nearly all of how it works to be able to prevent a competing implementation.

      Your implementation of your idea can then be copyrighted.

      A good example is Ogg Vorbis. The developers have released the spec in to the public domain and thus not patented it. The implementation, however, is copyrighted (Not that it's a big deal, the BSD-like license has nearly no restrictions on code use.).

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
    18. Re:So if something is released to the public... by nyseal · · Score: 1

      Yes and no....I agree it's caused problems, however if someone comes up with a viable way (on paper) to launch a person into space using nothing but collected human fart gas, so be it. Would the inventor have the resources to build the machine over NASA? I know I'm trying to be funny here but there are some instances where full disclosure may be non-profitable; if at all because of a lack of money or resources.

      --
      [SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
    19. Re:So if something is released to the public... by mlippert · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but I don't think that's right. Neither copyright, nor patent applies to an idea. Even if I were the 1st person to come up with it, I couldn't get a copyright or a patent on the idea that a series of sums could be represented by a single multiplication.

      (2+2+2+2+2) == 5*2

      I don't even think I could copyright or patent my notation of this idea, although I'm not sure about that.

      Patents cover techniques, or algorithms, ie by following these steps you can create a device that holds multiple pieces of paper together (a paperclip), or a device that separates the cotton seeds from the cotton fiber (a cotton gin). Personally I think we'd be better off if only physical algorithms were covered, since I think getting a patent on checking the denominator of a division for 0 before performing the division operation in a computer program is bogus.

      Copyrights cover particular expressions (or implementations if you will) of ideas, although that definition has been getting broader over time too. So I can write a story about a meteor hitting the earth (the idea) and someone else can also write a story using the same idea, and my copyright on my story does not give me any rights to that other person's story.

    20. Re:So if something is released to the public... by shaitand · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Niether of you are right. Software clouds the issue, software should not be patentable at all, it doesn't fit in with the scheme of things.

      Patent's are to cover IMPLEMENTATIONS of physical things, a specific way of making a steam engine, a certain weight shape and size of hammer for a specific purpose, etc.

      Copyrights are to cover ACTUAL creations of non-tangible things, source code, books, writting in general, artwork, etc.

      NIETHER is to cover ideas which are in themselves not SUPPOSED to be ownable. Patents are dangerous because if overly broad they can effectively protect an idea instead of an implementation.

      Software is copyrightable, it should not be patentable. The things which software patents are issued for are ideas and that is why software patents should not be considered truely valid.

    21. Re:So if something is released to the public... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      disassembling is part of reverse engineering, there is nothing wrong with it.

      If you invent the microwave, there is nothing wrong with me ripping your microwave apart and seeing how it ticks.

      The only thing I CANNOT do is actually take that microwave, duplicate the parts and redistribute it with my own label now that I figured out how it ticks, I still have to make my own from scratch that does the same thing. But I can most definately use the knowledge I acquired figuring out the details of yours.

      The implementation belongs to you, but not the concepts or ideas.

    22. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh geesh.

      Neither copyright nor patents cover ideas or facts. Information is free.

      Copyright covers original expression. Patent covers implementation.

    23. Re:So if something is released to the public... by JDBrechtel · · Score: 1

      NONE of you are right.

      Ok I take it back....one of you has to be right.

    24. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Natalie's+Hot+Grits · · Score: 1

      You cannot copyright data, such as encryption keys or how many miles it is to the next city.

      The only way to protect ideas is through patents and trade secret.

      --
      Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
    25. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      Well, there may be nothing wrong legally with that, but there is definitively something wrong morally. I mean, you don't steal code, granted, but you steal ideas, algorithms, etc... right?

    26. Re:So if something is released to the public... by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You can't make Coca-Cola anyway, even if you now the formula. (Which, BTW, is basically known, although it's been through a few revisions since then. The formula from known is from, I think, the 1960s. It would basically taste the same as the current one, the biggest change since then is well known, the change to corn syrup from sugar.)

      Coca-Cola contains essense of de-cocainized coca leaves, they have a plant in New Jersey and a special license from the DEA to import coca leaves. If you get the formula, good luck getting a license to import coca leaves, or trying to purchase essence of coca leaves from Coke.

      And they like to pretend the secret is a lot better guarded than it is. Half a dozen people in their syrup plant can, and I quote, 'make it while asleep'.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    27. Re:So if something is released to the public... by autophile · · Score: 1
      For example, Coca Cola takes extreme measures, both within its' organization and without, to prevent anyone from learning the actual formula for Coke, because they've never patented it and if it does get out they would lose their monopoly on the Coke taste

      Back when Coke launched New Coke, Pepsico reverse-engineered the Coke formula in, like, a few days. They were ready to release a soft drink that was just like Coke... and then Coke realized what asshats they'd been, withdrew New Coke, and gave us Coke back as "Classic Coke".

      So the actual formula for Coke being secret is about as ludicrous as the CSS algorithm being secret.

      --Rob

      --
      Towards the Singularity.
    28. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Prior+Restraint · · Score: 1

      You've more or less hit the nail on the head. If Pavlovich had signed an NDA to get the secret and then revealed it, he'd be liable, and as far as the law is concerned, the trade secret would still be a secret. It's when the trade secret becomes widely available from sources who have absolutely no connection to the owner of the secret that it stops being a once.

    29. Re:So if something is released to the public... by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How exactly does one steal an idea? There are currently over 30 different companies manufacturing DVD players. Did they steal the idea? Did they all steal the idea to play movies to begin with?

      Ideas are NOT property, they can't be stolen. You don't own ideas you have, there is nothing exclusive about an idea. Most people go their entire lives without having any truely ORIGINAL educated idea.

      Idea's today are based on hundreds or even thousands of "stolen" ideas that came before them.

      Once long ago someone had the idea of mathmatics, does that mean that nobody else should be performing calculations or expanding that idea and improving upon it? Someone once thought of the a device that calculates, lots of people took the idea of the abucus and made other devices which calculate, leading eventually to modern day calculators and computers.

      When you write a program you are "stealing" ideas, lots of people have these ideas. Ideas float all over the place, there are THIS VERY MOMENT billions of people on earth, all of them having ideas. Belive it or not, the odds of there being a chain of logic which is not followed by two of them without knowledge of the other at some point in their lives is pretty slim. At a billion to one odds of someone else thinking of the same thing you did that yields 3 who *gasp* stole your idea without ever even knowing it existed!

      Ideas are NOT property. They cannot be stolen. You don't even own something copyrighted or patented. You own the copyright or the patent, but the not the thing to which it pertains. Mankind owns the thing, and has granted you certain limited controls of that thing for a limited term in exchange for expressing your idea so the rest of mankind can possibly benefit from it. The ideas you have don't belong to you, they belong to the human race.

    30. Re:So if something is released to the public... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      nah, I don't think anybody has covered the BOTH are for ideas option. There is room to get in on this action yet my friend ;P

    31. Re:So if something is released to the public... by line.at.infinity · · Score: 1

      From what I understand, copyrights cover implementations, patents cover ideas. More explicitly, copyrights cover original expression, patents cover inventions. Even today, you cannot receive a patent unless you could demonstrate a working invention. Otherwise there would be tons of patents about anti-gravity and perpetual machines. The apparent problem with patents in the US today is mainly caused by the patent office accepting frivolous "inventions" or companies (e.g. Unisys) suddenly charging royalties after it becomes widely implemented without royalty.

    32. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Honest+Man · · Score: 1

      http://www.sodamuseum.bigstep.com/generic.jhtml?pi d=10 is the recipe to coca cola if you really want it - it was made public information a long time ago lol.

      Point being, nothing secret, stays secret forever.

    33. Re:So if something is released to the public... by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      OK. If I start creating my own PowerPuff Girl cartoons and distributing them (i.e. I write the script, draw the cartoons, etc.), I'm gonna get sued. Under what kind of IP protection am I sued?

      If I make a movie based on a recent book without permission, under what kind of IP protection am I being sued? Can't be trademark. Who trademarks a book? It would have to by copyright (right?) But I'm not stealing the book word for word, I'm reimplenting an idea (i.e. the plot).

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    34. Re:So if something is released to the public... by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      Then why does hollywood bother to pay for the movie rights for books?

      They aren't duplicating the book. Often they are making really significant changes. The book isn't patented or trademarked - just copyrighted.

      What are they paying for if not the idea?

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    35. Re:So if something is released to the public... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      No actually if you don't include any content from the book then you may get sued but not legitimately.

      Popular characters are often trademarked, that protects others from using them. But if you don't use lines from the book or trademarked names etc. You are perfectly legitimate in making your movie.

      Hell you could completely rewrite the book not using any of the actual text of the original, and not using any trademarked names and you would be legal.

    36. Re:So if something is released to the public... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      The reason hollywood pays for the rights to books is that the hollywood movie is NOT original, it may have some original content but it's not 100% original, they take lines directly from the book characters, etc. There is a difference between applying the same logical concepts (ideas) and lifting actual lines of code, schematics, etc. The hollywood movie will include SOME content from the book.

      In the rare case where it does not, hollywood generally pays for the rights ANYWAY to avoid a lawsuit and bad publicity. Avoiding Bad PR is more important for a multi-billion dollar industry which is all about popularity than paying a few bucks for book rights.

    37. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Altrag · · Score: 1

      OK. If I start creating my own PowerPuff Girl cartoons and distributing them (i.e. I write the script, draw the cartoons, etc.), I'm gonna get sued. Under what kind of IP protection am I sued?

      Trademark would be my guess.

      If I make a movie based on a recent book without permission, under what kind of IP protection am I being sued? Can't be trademark. Who trademarks a book? It would have to by copyright (right?) But I'm not stealing the book word for word, I'm reimplenting an idea (i.e. the plot).

      If I'm not mistaken, copyright covers derivative works as well as the original, with a few fair use exceptions (short quotes for articles, etc), so you'd probably be nailed there.

    38. Re:So if something is released to the public... by srmalloy · · Score: 1
      In the rare case where it does not, hollywood generally pays for the rights ANYWAY to avoid a lawsuit and bad publicity. Avoiding Bad PR is more important for a multi-billion dollar industry which is all about popularity than paying a few bucks for book rights.
      Except in cases where the original material is clearly in the public domain, which allows the production company to do whatever they want to with the material. However, this also creates a problem for other people, in that the production company will now have a copyright on a movie presentation, and can use that copyright to threaten legal action against any other company that wants to use the same public-domain source and produce a movie version. We have already seen this in practice in the case of a company which has made a significant pile of money producing animated versions of fairy tales...
    39. Re:So if something is released to the public... by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      So how is a reverse port of a DVD player not a derivative work?

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    40. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Xabraxas · · Score: 1

      I think you have that story a little backward. New Coke was released to taste like Pepsi. At the time Pepsi was doing really well and Coke was headed downhill. To compete Coke decided to make New Coke taste more like Pepsi. As we all know, it sucked ass, and eventually Coke released Coca-Cola Classic which is the original forumla.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    41. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you use a clean room development, it's not a derivative.

      Reverse eng. then write a spec. Let somebody else implement based on the specs (since the specs are considered an idea).

    42. Re:So if something is released to the public... by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      So can I do with a book? I could get the Cliff Notes, then make the movie basedon the Cliff Notes, right?

      Nope.

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    43. Re:So if something is released to the public... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's half right. It used to be that trade secrets were not copyrightable. This is because of the Constitution... copyright is to encourage creation and publication of works... but if they aren't published, why do they deserve copyright protection?

      However the US has signed a lot of copyright treaties which have made our laws convoluted. Trade secrets and other unpublished works do get some copyright protections.

      However you are half wrong in that once a trade secret is published, it is destroyed -- copyright or not.

      In the case of DeCSS this isn't an issue because the code isn't copied... it's an original creation so the trademark holder does not hold a copyright on DeCSS.

  7. Does this mean? by Facekhan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Does this mean that Xine and Mplayer can now be distributed with libdvdcss included.

    1. Re:Does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm not sure, but my guess is no. US distros would still not be able to distribute it because of the DMCA (CSS may not be a trade secret, but the movies are still copyrighted, and therefore covered). Other non-US distros may still have a problem because of royalties on MPEG-2 decoder patents (at least in countries that recognize software patents).

      So, to be squeaky clean, NO--you'll have to wait until the MPEG-2 patents expire AND if you're in the US, you'll have to wait until the DMCA is repealed/amended. The fact that the copyrights on some movies will (may) eventually expire means nothing, as there will always be new copyrighted movies which libdvdcss will still allow you to watch.

      If you're lucky enough to live in a country without software patents, then you're fine. You're actually free to do things with your computer.

    2. Re:Does this mean? by petabyte · · Score: 1

      US distros would still not be able to distribute it because of the DMCA (CSS may not be a trade secret, but the movies are still copyrighted, and therefore covered).

      Presumably that would be because DeCSS is a "circumvention device" to a copyright scheme. But how well does that argument hold up? CSS really doesn't prevent someone from copying the copywritten content on the disc (one could just make a copy of the disc, CSS scrambled et all).

      Then again I'm not on the side of the "evil" corporations. I'm the "I bought the damn DVD and I want to watch it in Linux too" side.

    3. Re:Does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately the law doesn't distinguish between "good" controls and "crappy" controls. Even a single bit like used in PDFs or the new television broadcast standard counts as a copy or access control... at least it does until the courts interpret the DMCA differently.

    4. Re:Does this mean? by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Yes but xine and mplayer don't have to be circumvention devices. Not buying a license for someone elses implementation of the decryption doesn't make you in violation of the DMCA. If xine and mplayer enforce CSS restrictions they aren't circumventing anything are they?

    5. Re:Does this mean? by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1
      ... US distros would still not be able to distribute it because of the DMCA ...

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but CSS doesn't prevent CSS-encoded content from being copied, it only restricts playback to a licensed player (theoretically) and as such isn't a copy-control mechanism that has the protection of the DMCA or EUCD.

      I can do a straight copy-and paste of the files from a DVD onto my hard-drive, and yet Windows copy&paste function doesn't have css, or need css to copy the files, therefore CSS is not a copy protection measure.

      Correct?

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    6. Re:Does this mean? by LMCBoy · · Score: 1

      As someone pointed out in another thread, The DMCA explicitly excludes "fair-use" situations, such as decrypting a legally-purchased DVD for personal use. The DMCA does not apply to non-infringing uses of deCSS.

      --
      Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
  8. Yeah... by c0dedude · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'd just like to take a minute to thank the EFF. You can help them by donating.

    --
    Since when has this country used intellectual elite as a pejorative term?
    1. Re:Yeah... by FurryFeet · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to take a minute to thank the EFF. You can help them by donating.

      Yeah, yeah, really slick, my man. Tell you what, I'll take the minute to thank the EFF and you donate. How you like that?

  9. A step in the right direction. by Thinkit3 · · Score: 1

    Good news is always welcome.

    --
    -Libertarian secular transhumanist
    1. Re:A step in the right direction. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      No.

      Information is free. It always was.

  10. so by pvt_medic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    does that basically kill thier argument about anything that copies DVD because if it is public knowledge anyone can do what they want

    --
    30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
    Score:5, Troll
    1. Re:so by BabyDave · · Score: 1

      does that basically kill thier argument about anything that copies DVD because if it is public knowledge anyone can do what they want

      I doubt it - wouldn't the DMCA's thing about defeating copy-protection still apply? And even if that fails, I'm suer they've got other tricks up their sleeve.

      Um, I mean sure :-\

    2. Re:so by MadCow42 · · Score: 1

      The technology to read the data may now be public domain / not illegal, but there are still Copyright infringement issues with copying DVD content.

      madCow.

      --
      I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
    3. Re:so by pvt_medic · · Score: 1

      ah but anything that reads the DVD would be defeating copy-protection to open the DVD and play it on your home entertainment system would be defeating it. Because it is in the public domain they cant license out the rights for decrytption

      --
      30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
      Score:5, Troll
    4. Re:so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's much worse than that. You can, under copyright law, make a copy of a DVD for your own personal use. However under the DMCA you are not allowed to distribute or use DeCSS which is needed in order to copy that DVD.

      So I agree it's still illegal to use DeCSS. I disagree about the reason.

      (And if you meant it was illegal to copy a DVD and give it to the first 100 strangers you meet then of course I agree... but that is so obvious I don't know why you would have mentioned it.)

  11. CCA finally concedes CSS is no longer a secret... by dodgyville · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now if we can only get the Beatles to finally admit that Paul is dead, then that will mean the two most important but worst-kept secrets in the world will have been revealed on one day.

    --
    apt-get install deathstar && deathstar alderaan && echo "You're far too trusting"
  12. And I still... by downix · · Score: 5, Funny

    haven't gotten the damned t-shirt yet. 8(

    Ok, thinkgeek here I come!

    --
    Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    1. Re:And I still... by Bob9000 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I ordered that t-shirt, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!

      --
      Those whose signatures threaten negative moderation will be modded down.
    2. Re:And I still... by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 1

      Ah man what kinda nerd are you? j/k :)

      I've had mine since the summer of 2000 I think. I think I'll wear it to work tomorrow for casual Friday.

      --
      500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
  13. Hurrah! by BeneathTheVeil · · Score: 3, Funny

    Let the mass pirating of DVDs begin!

    ...what?

    1. Re:Hurrah! by CrazyDuke · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I think everyone that wanted to has left you behind, bub.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
  14. Will it be easier to get region-free players? by MichaelCrawford · · Score: 5, Interesting
    One would think that all the DVD player manufacturers will now start making region-free players, but that might not be the case because they have contracts with the DVD-CCA that forbids them from doing so.

    I've so far avoided getting a dedicated DVD player just because they have region coding, preferring to use a software-based open source dvd player.

    But it's sure not as convenient or as pleasant to watch DVDs on my laptop as it would be on my TV with a dedicated player. For one thing, my laptop doesn't have a remote control.

    --
    Request your free CD of my piano music.
    1. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um most do have region free just by entering in the secret code.

    2. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      laptop remote control?

      why doesn't it? My sony vaio has built in infrared receiver/xmiter so it's just a matter of setting up the daemon to recieve the codes and do something when it sees them.

      Then, you can control your laptop dvd player with a regular tv remote.

      neat!

    3. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Quarters · · Score: 1

      Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?

    4. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by EinarH · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?
      Not many, some though maybe 20% for me (I'm from Europe). But that is not the point. If I want to buy DVD's in Asia why should I not be allowed to do so?
      The whole point behind the region coding is to stiffle competition and control distrobution so the prices on the DVD's can be kept artificially high. Without region coding the prices on both players and DVD's would have been lower.
      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

    5. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I can order DVDs from zone 1 before they're even shown in THEATERS in zone 4, or for less than half the price I would pay when the DVD is finally released here? Shitloads.

    6. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?

      Don't know about him, but in my case its mostly the principle of the thing. Although I do happen to have a few region 4 ones (I live in usa, region 1).

    7. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by bblfish · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There are many films that get published in one region but not the other. For example the Polish film "The Saragossa Manuscripts" which was filmed in Spain is only available as a Region 1 (US) encoded DVD. I am in Europe and can not watch a European film because of the greed and stupidity of these $@!$ media oligopolies. Quite ironic really.

      I bought it anyhow because it is really original: it was a favorite of the Greatful Dead lead singer. But I can't watch it on my PowerBook laptop or our home DVD player. Luckily we have an old Apple Cube around that did not have these restrictions.

      I should have bought my laptop in Switzerland. Apparently they made region encoding illegal there.

    8. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Wesley+Everest · · Score: 1
      I've watched plenty. I live a couple miles from a great video rental store. I bought a Malata 310 online and have been reasonably satisfied. The only downside is the screen gets squished if the DVD is PAL *and* widescreen. Malata makes some more expensive models that handle PAL+widescreen, supposedly.

      One example of what I watched was the DVD box set for the TV show Angel -- the PAL version was released almost a year before the NTSC version. Scarecrow had the PAL version for rental the moment it came out in the UK...

    9. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a few US imports. Roughly 7 or 8, and about 40 or so UK releases. It's actually rarely worth importing these days. The ones I have either showed no signs of becoming available in England for many months, or had feautres that aren't on the region 2 release.

      The principle of the thing is important though. At first, the region 2 releases were extremely sparse of features. Because the European distributors had to compete with the US editions, they had to add the features.

    10. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by AvitarX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know it is also wuite possible they could cost more money?

      If they cherry pick what proffits (per unit) they can from the poorer areas, by selling them at a price that would not be sustanable if they all cost that, but still make them a few extra dollors. They can use that money to repay some of the overhead of producing a movie.

      If the average price was used, the poorer areas could not buy any DVDs, so now we in the affluent areas have the burden of repaying more of the production cost ourselves, which means that the average price would actually have to be higher then what we currently pay.

      Of course I live in America and good ald movies are like 10 dollors on DVD. Mediocer just past new release are 12 and new releases rarly break 20 dollors. So compared to Europe our DVD's are cheap.

      Of course our CDs are too, even without region locking. Last time I went to Vienna (about 5 years ago (or more)) I bought a new CD for 20-25 dollors (which was about the normal price). In the US I would have expected to pay about 11 or 12 dollors (this was pre-napster, which destroyed our record shops in town. It is a college town so the largest CD buying population all the sudden could get any CD they wanted for free over broadband. Napster may encourage CD sales, but not amongst college students with broadband, now I pay as much as 15 dollors for a CD).

      So, I guess I am saying I deffinatly benifit from region coding prices, and possibly you are too, but I doubt it, you are probably helping to subsidize my low cost, just as you were in non-region encoded CDs.

      Also, there is very little competition in the DVD market region encoding or no. That is what copyright means. You get a monopoly on your product.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    11. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by mastropiero · · Score: 1

      All of them, I for one live in a third world country and I purchase my dvds via amazon. The dvd player I have is region 1 and they will not catch me alive!!

      *runs, plunges, plays dead*

    12. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      I have a bunch - films never released in their original forms in the US (Witchfinder General for instance - indeed, I don't think that one's even available on DVD in the crippled form it was released here in US theaters), plus BBC serieses that, for whatever reason, the BBC has decided to region encode knowing full well it will never release them internationally.

      On another note: Slow Down Cowboy! Slashdot requires you to wait 2 minutes between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment. It's been 1 minute since you last successfully posted a comment Chances are, you're behind a firewall or proxy, or clicked the Back button to accidentally reuse a form. Please try again. If the problem persists, and all other options have been tried, contact the site administrator.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    13. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Flyboy+Connor · · Score: 1
      "Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?"

      For me, about 70%. I live in Europe, and region 2 DVDs in general suck compared to region 1 DVDs. Many have fixed subtitles and miss most of the extras. Furthermore, lots of movies are simply not released in region 2 (Criterion collection? Forget it). Finally, they are more expensive over here. Things have got a little better in the last year or so, but we are still behind.

      To give an example, I read that Newline had to force the region 2 producer/distributor to release the extended version of LotR: FotR exactly as it had been released in the USA. It was going to be a cheap rip, because the distributor thought the production costs would get too high. We got lucky with LotR, but many movies do not fare so well. After having been disappointed several times, I decided to quit buying region 2 DVDs and now only buy region 1, except when they are really discounted.

      Luckily, region-free DVD players are easy to get over here, and usually they are the cheapest you can get.

    14. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. I don't understand how $20 for the newest release (sometimes movie of the year) can be considered overpriced. $10-15 for a fully digital copy of movie on dvd, supporting dts/progressive scan.

      If you think you're going to watch it more than once buy it on dvd. Otherwise rent it. It's not rocket science. The pricing is not the issue at all, it's societies unwillingness to pay when they can steal.

    15. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1
      I'm in the US and have four Region 2 DVDs ordered online:
      • They Live because it was out-of-print in the US (it came out soon after and I have purchased a Region 1 copy)
      • Flash Gordon because it is long out-of-print in the US, still with no sign of a reissue
      • The War of the Worlds because I wanted to compare it to my Region 1 version, maybe even merge the language tracks into a new combined edition (the disks' capacities are underutilized), especially as the UK version has a stereo English track only available on Laserdisc in the US, and
      • Doctor Who , the Fox TV movie still not available in the US in any format!
      I have many more Region 0 UK imports that aren't available in the US, and more on the way today. My DVD player can handle the PAL to NTSC conversion.

      Amazon UK will ship to the US, and others may as well. I'd put in an order for another movie from Germany if only I had a VCR that could handle PAL-to-NTSC conversions. I might as well just keep an eye on the pay movie channels to see if one airs it again, subscribe for a month, TiVo it, import it to the computer and burn my own damn DVD.
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    16. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by G-funk · · Score: 1

      For me personally, about 50%. Balls to buying australian discs with less extra content, and more censorship.

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    17. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by glesga_kiss · · Score: 1
      Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?

      Me, at least half of my 120+ movies. As an early adopter, the limited Region 2 releases forced me to look abroad. The savings and generally better product (extras etc) made me stay abroad. I had read about the problems before buying a player, and ensured that mine was all-region.

      The region 2 disks I own are either ones that were on special offer, or in some way superiour to the region 1 offering, such as anamorphic picture, audio etc. I also own a couple of Austrailian disks (oi! release "The Castle" will ya!?!) and the superb Japanesse version of Leon (The Professional), which is about 30 minutes longer.

      Strangely, I haven't bought one in two years. I refuse to as they played the same "new tech" lies that they did to justify CD prices vs. tape. All the cheap DVDs are either poor movies or ones that are old and I already have. I feel thourghly ripped off. But hey, there's always E-mule!

    18. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by hublan · · Score: 1

      Rubbish. Fish and tipsy. Obviously you're not familiar with the power of Google because otherwise you'd've known better.

      I bought mine from this nice Illinois-based company.

      Not only does the player do exactly as advertised (ie. play all regions and downsample PAL to NTSC) they also shipped to Canada.

      (No. No affiliation. Just happy to be able to play decent comedy from the UK).

      --
      My spoon is too big.
    19. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Quarters · · Score: 1
      I understand what your point is and my question wasn't meant to be a question against that. I was more interested in the hassle:convenience ratio, personally.

      I, too, don't think DVDs should be region locked. But, since I only ever watch US region DVDs I decided to just get a $100 DVD player, hook it to my TV and be done with it. The hassle of having and maintaining a Linux box in the family room just didn't seem worth it on the off chance that at some point I might watch a non US DVD.

    20. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1
      I've so far avoided getting a dedicated DVD player just because they have region coding, preferring to use a software-based open source dvd player.

      Not a problem if you select your DVD player carefully. There are existing hacks for many of them that remove region coding. Sometimes there's a hidden menu that you have to access with a series of obscure manipulations of the remote, sometimes you can burn a CD with a hacked version of the firmware that the player can use to reprogram itself, or you might need to program an EEPROM with the hacked firmware.

      Come on... You know you want to!

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
    21. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Gadzinka · · Score: 1

      Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?

      I'm not from particularly wealthy country (Poland) and never considered myself a rich person. That's probably the reason why from my collection of about 150 DVDs about half is from other regions (Australia, US). I just buy them where they're cheap. Or even where they're released at all.

      And even after adding the postage from down-under it's still cheaper than to buy them in Europe.

      Fscking regions...

      Robert

      --
      Bastard Operator From 193.219.28.162
    22. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by asparagus · · Score: 1

      Don't know if you want to risk doing it, but there do exist region hacks to allow you to 'reset' your dvd region code.

    23. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Bob+Uhl · · Score: 1
      First of all, it's the principle of the thing, no?

      In addition, several of Branagh's films were released with much nicer editions in the UK than in the US.

      It's all about freedom.

    24. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, here in Australia, we get DVDs 3 months after theyr'e released in the US.
      That's why regioning sucks.

    25. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by bblfish · · Score: 1

      but not for my PowerBook yet (17" 1.33GHz), sadly.

    26. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Clovert+Agent · · Score: 1
      Mine does.

      I bought it specifically so that I could control DVD playback on my laptop while sitting on the couch. And this one in particular because it's suitable for left-handers, which is nice.

      If I were to need another one now, I'd definitely opt for one with a less bulky base station - my housemate's mouse has a neat USB thumbdrive-sized receiver. Much less range than the Logitech monster, but sufficient for the sort of TV-to-couch range in question.

    27. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Slashamatic · · Score: 1
      Yes, you are riught about the cherry picking. If they want to ensure that nobody parallel imports then they can produce Chinese, Malay or Thai only versions. The "overhead" of producing a movie is another matter. Hollywood is fscked big time over costs, but that is only because the studios end up in bidding wars for the same "stars", be they performing actors or directors. Movies *can* be produced for significantly less.

      Here is a joke.

      1. DVD in Germany. Pice 17.95 Euros
      2. DVD player in Germany with same DVD bundled, 49.95 Euros
      The price of the DVD is an agreed minimum. If you try to sell for less, the usual channels will blacklist you. However the same store can bundle the DVD with a cheap player for under 50 Euros. Many DVD players are still being sold as mult-region and the onlything worrying private importers is the lack of a German soundtrack, and even that is becomming less of an issue. Small private imports (like individual DVDs) do not usually attract duty.
    28. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Card · · Score: 1
      Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?
      I'm a movie collector living in Finland, and currently my small collection has 102 titles.
      • R1 titles: 59
      • R2 titles: 17
      • R3 titles: 5
      • R4 titles: 15
      • R0 titles: 6
      The R2 releases' overall quality has really improved, which has actually made me consider waiting for the domestic release. Also, some of my friends don't understand english that well, so Finnish subtitles are always a plus. However, sometimes the titles simply aren't available (most anime, Hong Kong films), or domestic release is significantly inferior (for example, the R2 Sopranos box set was pan & scanned).

      Being able to choose is a good thing.

    29. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by mst76 · · Score: 1

      > Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?

      Posting such a question here is not very useful. You'll only get replies from people who have a lot of DVDs from other regions.

    30. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have 50 odd DVDs. I live in Region 4.

      I probably have equal numbers from regions 1, 2 and 4.

      I have 2 imports from region 3.

    31. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by noims · · Score: 1

      The main problem with region encoding, for me at least, is (as I've said before) that you get different extras on the disks in different regions. For example, the best region 2 version of Life of Brian has a documentary and (I believe) audio commentaries, but the region 1 Criterion Edition also has deleted scenes and some hilarious radio ads from when it was first aired.

      I also heard (though have yet to confirm) that the extended edition of The Two Towers has Gollem's MTV award acceptance speech, but only on the region 1 version. No fair!

      NOims.

      --
      This is not the greatest sig in the world. This is just a tribute.
    32. Re:Will it be easier to get region-free players? by Sabalon · · Score: 1

      Just out of curiosity, on average how many DVDs that you watch are made for regions other than the one you live in?

      Zero. I don't have a way to play them. However, there are things I've wanted to purchase that were Region2. It has gotten a lot better over the last couple of years, with more stuff coming out over hear, but some doesn't.

  15. Linux? by mahdi13 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Does this mean I can finally watch encrypted DVDs on Linux without having the fear of the FBI crashing through my windows?

    --
    "Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
    1. Re:Linux? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Funny

      Does this mean I can finally watch encrypted DVDs on Linux without having the fear of the FBI crashing through my windows?

      No, the SCO case is not settled yet.

      (HOW-TO: Mix SCO into a COMPLETELY unrelated story...)

      Kjella

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:Linux? by NakedPenguin · · Score: 2, Funny

      1. Sure, but you still have to worry about your Windows crashing. 2. Sure, assuming you've paid SCO their $650 3. Don't buy DVDs! Stick it to the MPAA! Any others?

    3. Re:Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that you Darl?

    4. Re:Linux? by archen · · Score: 1

      maybe... but you take YOUR tinfoil hat off first okay?

    5. Re:Linux? by CGP314 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Does this mean I can finally watch encrypted DVDs on Linux without having the fear of the FBI crashing through my windows?

      Who do you think you are? Zero cool?

      --
      In London? Need a Physics Tutor?

      American Weblog in London

    6. Re:Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No more marijuana for you.

    7. Re:Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the SCO case is not settled yet.

      (HOW-TO: Mix SCO into a COMPLETELY unrelated story...)


      And how is this different from SCO posts you see in every other /. story?

    8. Re:Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      depends what you're watching...

      (draws blinds)

    9. Re:Linux? by JoeBuck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can't be prosecuted under the DMCA for having Ogle or DeCSS or the like on your computer, and using the program to play DVDs that you have obtained legally. The DMCA only forbids "trafficking" in technology that circumvents copyright protection measures, not use of such technology.

      You could still theoretically be at risk for use of software that infringes patents, but that's a civil matter (the patent holder might be able to sue you), not a criminal matter (no one can arrest you).

    10. Re:Linux? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      you should tweak it a bit, it's not funny unless you get modded insightful or informative.

      errr. well, to write at least something about the original subject, will this make watching dvd's with videolan on windows legal? I got a friend who doesn't have scart connector on his tv so we had to run the picture from his computer(he doesn't have a seperate dvd player) through his videos to get the picture on the tv screen. needless to say macrovision actually works with those vcr's that he has so using any of the (2 or 3) commercial legal players that turn macrovision on are useless for him.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    11. Re:Linux? by DavidTC · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Decrypting CSS has no patents on it. Sans the their idiotic 'trade secret' suit, the only 'violation' is that somehow they are the only people authorized to authorize you to watch DVDs, due to the magic of the DMCA. (I, personally, want to make a CSS encoded DVD and sue them, but the encrypting is patented...but there are countries that do not allow software patents. And there are no legal issues with importing a device made with a process that's patented here but not elsewhere, as long as the device itself does not use the patented processes. Just one damn CSS made by someone who's not a member of the MPAA or one of their licencees and the entire house of cards comes crashing down, and there's no risk at all as long as you make it in a country without software patents. (It's not like making a player, they can't sue you under the DMCA for making a DVD.) For bonus points, claim DeCSS is the only authorized player for your DVD.)

      And the trade secret suit was stupid from the start, anyway. You can't protect trade secrets by slapping a EULA on a piece of software, you have to have real contracts with real signatures. To get around being bound by an EULA, legally, is child's play. They did it by being in a country that didn't allow you ban reverse engineering, but you could have done it by simply having someone else click 'I Agree', or gotten a decompressor for the installer and copied the files out manually to reverse engineer. (And, yes, copying the files manually to install the software is completely legal.) Tada, you're not legally bound by the EULA, even if you would have been normally bound by it, which is itself in question because it's imposing terms after the sale.

      And since someone could do that, it's automatically not a trade secret, so even if that's not how they break it, it doesn't matter. If you (on purpose) had your company secrets laying in plain sight from the street on a desk, and I can prove it, I didn't steal your 'trade secrets' even if I, personally, happened to get them by breaking into the building and cracking a safe...because they stopped being trade secrets when you failed to try to protect them.(You can fail to protect them, but you have to at least try for them to remain trade secrets.)

      Trade secrets have to be real secrets, and you can't just hand out devices that use them willy-nilly in the store. If you walk into court with a 'trade secret' violation and can't immediately produce a list of people who have had authorized access to it and the contracts they signed, you'll get laughed out of court, and it's really amazing the MPAA was able to drag this out this long, probably by conflating it with the supposed DMCA violations, which are utterly unrelated.

      Also, you probably shouldn't patent the damn encoder if you are trying to keep the decoder secret, that really doesn't make any sense either.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    12. Re:Linux? by pruss · · Score: 1

      Except that css is not just an anti-duplication measure but perhaps also an access control measure (that's what the copyright office seems to think), and in the case of access controls it's not just trafficking but use that is prohibited. But IANAL.

      What, by the way, is trafficking. If I download a piece of software, am I trafficking in it by cooperating in someone's sending it to me?

    13. Re:Linux? by deblau · · Score: 1

      Windows crashes enough. You don't need to get the FBI involved.

      --
      This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
  16. How does this affect DVD Jon? by RobertB-DC · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So, if it's no longer a trade secret in the US, does that mean that the Jon Johansen can finally quit worrying about the Norwegian government's appealing the second aquittal? Or can they claim that he's still guilty, if they prove it was a trade secret at the time he "hacked" it?

    en francais, aussi...

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
    1. Re:How does this affect DVD Jon? by bwt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, I suspect that the timing of this DVD-CCA decision is completely explained by the fact that Jon won in Norway. If Jon's actions were legal under the laws of his country then Bunner's actions in the US are not traceable to an act of misappropriation.

    2. Re:How does this affect DVD Jon? by xargoon · · Score: 1

      No, Okokrim lost again, and its too late to file a new appeal.

      http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article.jh tml?articleID=466797

    3. Re:How does this affect DVD Jon? by dot-magnon · · Score: 1

      Actually, as far as I know being a Norwegian, Jon Johansen is free to go in Norway. IANAL, but Norwegian laws are nothing like US laws on copyrights, so I'd say Jon has nothing to worry about. At least not with the DVD case. But he's already started pissing off others.

    4. Re:How does this affect DVD Jon? by LeftOfCentre · · Score: 1

      I believe the prosecution did not file an appeal to the supreme court within the deadline, which would mean that the case is settled once and for all.

  17. Donate! Please consider $upporting the EFF... by (1337)+God · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If any of you have some spare dollars or Euros lying around, maybe this article and the fact that you're in a relaxed Friday night mood might convince you to make a tax-deductible donation to the Electronic Frontier Foundation and help save civil liberties in cyberspace.

    Andrew Bunner, the man featured on this Slashdot page, was being prosecuted under California's trade secret laws for redistributing DeCSS. If the EFF hadn't stepped in and stood up for his rights (at no cost to him), he very well might be in jail right now.

    So please, consider joining or donating right now. It really does make a big difference.

    One thing I promised myself back in college was that if I made any money off my computer knowledge gleaned from the Open-Source and computer-loving communities like Slashdot, Freshmeat, SourceForge, etc., I would donate 1% of my salary to various groups such as the EFF. I have kept my word, and I must tell you that it feels great.

    I urge you all to think strongly consider it. Who's watching out for us if we don't all chip in?

    Thanks for reading this, friends. It means a lot to me.

    --

    Background: 28/M/Bi-Sexual; Owner of a Linux company; MBA Harvard 2003; B.S. Comp Sci MIT 2000
    1. Re:Donate! Please consider $upporting the EFF... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Maybe tomorrow night...

    2. Re:Donate! Please consider $upporting the EFF... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're in a relaxed Friday night mood

      It's thursday night here, you insensitive clod!

    3. Re:Donate! Please consider $upporting the EFF... by jmt9581 · · Score: 1

      "I urge you all to think strongly consider it. Who's watching out for us if we don't all chip in?"

      Hopefully you are. :)

      --

      My blog

    4. Re:Donate! Please consider $upporting the EFF... by Icculus · · Score: 1

      I second this. If you don't feel up to writing out a big ol check, see if your employer (should you have one) will do payroll deduction for charitable organizations. That way your big lump sum gets split up 26 ways and you don't have to think about it.

      My employer uses United Way for all this, but I'm able to specify exactly which 503c I want my money to go to. If you're lucky they might even match your contribution :)

  18. Wow by ENOENT · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Finally, a headline that doesn't make me want to find a rock to hide under.

    --
    That's "Mr. Soulless Automaton" to you, Bub.
  19. Re:CCA finally concedes CSS is no longer a secret. by RetroGeek · · Score: 1
    Beatles to finally admit that Paul

    And Elvis....
    • No wait, I see him!
    --

    - - - - - - - - - - -
    I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
  20. Re:CCA finally concedes CSS is no longer a secret. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're getting closer...

  21. 40 bits by MooseGuy529 · · Score: 3, Informative
    This means that the DVD CCA has finally conceded that CSS is no longer a secret, something the rest of us have known for a few years now.

    It's not CSS that's the problem--the five-digit player key is a trade secret.

    Anyway, let's celebrate!

    --

    Tired of free iPod sigs? Subscribe to my blacklist

    1. Re:40 bits by El · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Can't the player key be passed in as a command-line argument, thus making the code fully distributable? As long as they don't automatically configure the key, I don't see the problem.

      --

      "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

    2. Re:40 bits by edwdig · · Score: 4, Informative

      The key isn't a problem. You don't need to know the key ahead of time. CSS encryption is so badly designed that you can brute force find a key within a few seconds. Any recent Linux DVD player doesn't contain a key, it just looks at the DVD and figures one out.

      They're admitting CSS isn't a trade secret anymore. If you know CSS, then it only takes a few seconds to find a key. Based on that, how can you justify calling the key a trade secret?

    3. Re:40 bits by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      If you know CSS, then it only takes a few seconds to find a key. Based on that, how can you justify calling the key a trade secret?

      You do have to go to some length to figure it out though. It may be secured fairly weakly, but it's still protected, and the protection can have no plausable purpose other than preventing unauthorised access.

    4. Re:40 bits by MooseGuy529 · · Score: 1
      how can you justify calling the key a trade secret?

      I think one of the DVD player manufacturers tried to use this argument on a programmer once... that the five bytes themselves constitute a trade secret and that their product had been reverse-engineered illegally or something...

      --

      Tired of free iPod sigs? Subscribe to my blacklist

    5. Re:40 bits by DavidTC · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Except figuring out trade secrets by brute force is completely legal.

      Trade secrets are basically anti-patents. (Which is why the term 'intellectual property' is stupid.)

      With patents, inventers are screwed even if they reinvent it without knowing about the original.

      With trade secrets, not only can invent it myself, but I can do everything in my power to learn it from you as long as I obey the law and don't break any signed NDAs.

      If I am, to pick a mostly silly but widely used example trade secret, trying to steal the formula to Coke, I not only can subject the drink to chemical analysis, but I can take a tour of the plant with a hidden high-powered camera, I can rifle through their trash, I can get hired as a employee and attempt to learn it that way, I can get an employee drunk, etc. If I do, I win. (Note all companies make you sign an NDA before learning trade secrets, and in some places it's actually part of your employment contract, so you actually can't sign on with them to learn it.)

      Also note that if I trick someone else into telling it, while they may be liable, I am not, and can use my knowledge in any way I want. (Which, BTW, is one of the few forms of legal blackmail...I can offer to sign an NDA if they will pay me X amount of money.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    6. Re:40 bits by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      I can get an employee drunk, etc. If I do, I win

      I don't think you can. If an employeee blabs, while the employee is liable for civil action, it would probably be possible to get an injunction against the person the employee blabbed to.

      Also note that if I trick someone else into telling it, while they may be liable, I am not, and can use my knowledge in any way I want. (Which, BTW, is one of the few forms of legal blackmail...I can offer to sign an NDA if they will pay me X amount of money.)

      Extortion is not legal blackmail.

    7. Re:40 bits by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      I don't think you can. If an employeee blabs, while the employee is liable for civil action, it would probably be possible to get an injunction against the person the employee blabbed to.

      You'd have to show that the person had done something illegal to get an injunction against them...and getting someone drunk so they'll talk about things they aren't suppose to talk about isn't illegal.

      The court will only issue injunctions to prevent someone who did something illegal from profiting from it...they won't issue injunctions to stop trade secrets from being legally 'stolen'.

      Also note that if I trick someone else into telling it, while they may be liable, I am not, and can use my knowledge in any way I want. (Which, BTW, is one of the few forms of legal blackmail...I can offer to sign an NDA if they will pay me X amount of money.)

      Extortion is not legal blackmail.

      No, blackmail is extortion, extortion in general isn't blackmail, and I have no idea what you're talking about.

      However, if I (legitimately) learn a trade secret of some company, I can a) forget it, b) use it myself, c) tell the world, or d) tell the company I have it and will sign an NDA for X amount of money.

      And all those options are completely legal, and if you look at c and d you'll find out that, yes, you can legally 'blackmail' them or 'extort' them or whatever word you want to use. You can charge them money not to reveal one of their secrets, and I don't know what else to call that except legal blackmail.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  22. DMCA ? by vlad_petric · · Score: 4, Informative
    Not being a trade secret doesn't mean it's not prosecutable under DMCA. The reason distros don't include libdvdcss is really DMCA.

    DVD css was cracked through reverse engineering, which does not equate to stealing a trade secret. I do think that the outcome is important, but it won't really make that much of a difference IMHO (and of course, IANAL)

    --

    The Raven

    1. Re:DMCA ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't copyright a five-digit number or an idea -as long as the implementation is different (and given the reverse engineering, it would have to be), copyright would not apply to the code, and the 5-digit player list isn't copyrightable, as it could be easily randomly generated.

    2. Re:DMCA ? by kfg · · Score: 1

      . . . and the 5-digit player list isn't copyrightable, as it could be easily randomly generated.

      Which would still result in a circumvention device. Successfully generating an account password by random generation and then using that password is still an illegal computer entry.

      It has nothing to do with whether the password is under copyright protection or not.

      Copyright protection only means you couldn't publish that password.

      KFG

    3. Re:DMCA ? by red+floyd · · Score: 5, Informative
      However, 17 USC 1201(f) explicity allows reverse engineering for interoperability:

      (f) Reverse Engineering. -

      (1)

      Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

      (2)

      Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

      (3)

      The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

      (4)

      For purposes of this subsection, the term ''interoperability'' means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.
      --
      The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
    4. Re:DMCA ? by halo1982 · · Score: 1

      I thought this was one of those things the DMCA made illegal?

    5. Re:DMCA ? by red+floyd · · Score: 1

      Nope. 17 USC 1201 IS the DMCA.

      --
      The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
    6. Re:DMCA ? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      The fact CSS was a trade-secret made it an "affective access control device". If it's no longer a trade secret, it has no other claim to being an access control device and thus it is not a violation of the DMCA to incorporate an (unlicensed) CSS decoder in a DVD playing program.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    7. Re:DMCA ? by Sloppy · · Score: 2, Informative
      However, 17 USC 1201(f) explicity allows reverse engineering for interoperability
      That kind of got talked to death a few years ago. What you say appears to be true, going by the text of the law. But in the 2600 case, Judge Kaplan ruled differently.
      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  23. In Other News... by plasm4 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Microsoft releases Office under the GPL Steve Ballmer wins Nobel Price in physics Former Enron executive Ken Lay goes to jail Duke Nukem Forever released

    1. Re:In Other News... by svallarian · · Score: 1

      and Darl McBride goes on NBC nightly news and says "We were wrong...and stupid"

      --
      I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
    2. Re:In Other News... by Rary · · Score: 1

      I noticed you placed those in order from most likely ("Microsoft releases Office under the GPL") to least likely ("Duke Nukem Forever released").

      --

      "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

    3. Re:In Other News... by EulerX07 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Patent on punctuation expires! You can now freely make use of it!

    4. Re:In Other News... by El_Ge_Ex · · Score: 1

      Microsoft releases Office under the GPL Steve Ballmer wins Nobel Price in physics Former Enron executive Ken Lay goes to jail Duke Nukem Forever released

      You had me til DNK.

      -B

  24. Import one.. by Kjella · · Score: 1

    from well, anywhere but the US? :)

    Though what's always annoyed me is that they're more expensive, not much, but slightly. So the mass market buys region locked ones. Then again, I should probably be glad there are at all.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Import one.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This player has been available on Amazon for quite a while now - not only does it play any region's DVD's, but it will also play DivX and XVid encoded AVI files.

    2. Re:Import one.. by badasscat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      from well, anywhere but the US? :)

      I can buy one at the Japanese market down the street from me for $119. They do exist in the US, you just have to know where to look. Of course, a wide variety of web sites sell them too.

      It's moot in terms of this discussion, though, because CSS has nothing to do with region coding. My player's region free but it's still CSS-protected - you can't make a digital copy of DVD's even if you could somehow connect a PC to it. My old Apex player would remove the CSS protection but as far as I know there was nothing you could really do with the resulting data (unless someone did eventually invent a cable and connector to do it... but then why not just use a DVD-ROM drive to begin with?).

      My point? I have no point. Well, maybe just that we should clarify what CSS really does before talking about what the removal of it can do for us. Using DeCSS is not going to remove region coding on your DVD player (not like you could use it on a standalone player anyway), nor is it going to do it for you on a DVD-ROM drive (though other commonly-available firmware utilities will).

    3. Re:Import one.. by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Informative
      Actually the two are connected and CSS's primary reason for existing is to enforce region encoding.

      The deal goes like this: In order to produce a DVD player that's worth buying, a manufacturer must license CSS (until now, anyway). However, a license stipulation imposed by the CCA for licensing CSS is that the players that use it also impose region encoding. Outside of the US, region encoding almost certainly violates basic competition laws, which is why manufacturers routinely flout the license there; however within the US, there are fewer competition laws to allow these kinds of get-outs.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    4. Re:Import one.. by qwertyatwork · · Score: 1

      ...you can't make a digital copy of DVD's

      Um, my dvd burner does. It has to shrink them because dvd5 is 4.7 gigs, and dvd9 (normal) is somewhere around 9. But I have the menus, chapters, dolby 5.1, captions, extra languages, etc. Some movies are small enough to copy without compresion. Aside from having css removed (and anoying copyright notices that you have to sit through for 7 minutes) its an exact copy.

    5. Re:Import one.. by qwertyatwork · · Score: 1

      I use copytodvd

  25. Yeah... by JoeLinux · · Score: 1

    ...at the risk of sounding like a "Me too" AOLer, the EFF is an organization that is often overlooked. If any of you are big-time managers of fortune 500 companies, and need a tax-break, I would highly suggest kicking a few million down to them. You would be truly 1337. Think IBM. Think Intel (on the weeks they are on our side), Think Novell. You could be seen as the same, and have linux coders clammoring to make your code/hardware/whatever better.

    Just my $.02

  26. No, sorry, that's spin your reading.. by stratjakt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This means that the DVD CCA has finally conceded that CSS is no longer a secret

    No it doesn't, it means they decided not to pursue this particular case. I dont see where they conceded anything, or shut the door on any future legal action.

    Just because the EFF sees it that way doesnt mean it's so, they're a special interest group with an agenda. Agreeing with the agenda doesn't make everything they say/do in pursuit of that agenda right.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    1. Re:No, sorry, that's spin your reading.. by wheeda · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the US legal system strip certain IP / copyright / something from companies when they selectively enforce?

    2. Re:No, sorry, that's spin your reading.. by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but my recollection is that if a trademark/patent/copyright is not vigorusly defended, it becomes null and void (thus we have some of the stupid cases of people being sued over something that many of us would consider innocent). Moreover CSS wasn't patented, it was a trade secret, which works differently.
      Basically, if its a trade secret you can go after someone for revealing it, and try to keep them from revealing it to anyone else. But, if someone figures your secret out, and tells the whole world, it loses its protected status.
      Since, to my understanding, CSS was figured out by people who did not have access to the original code, they can talk about it, and it kills the trade secret status.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    3. Re:No, sorry, that's spin your reading.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you practice law in which state?...

  27. Will 2600 post the code again? by Bob+Cat+-+NYMPHS · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's still a permanent injunction against them even linking to it. This should be interesting.

    1. Re:Will 2600 post the code again? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      They may have to bring a motion to a judge to vacate the injunction first. (An easy way to get it before a judge is to violate the injunction, but it is also risky.)

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  28. Don't be so naive by BigChigger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They're readying the next format now anyway. They know that DeCSS has made no dent at all in their revenues. But they won't make that mistake (letting the keys out) again.

    BC

    1. Re:Don't be so naive by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      That's no moon...

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    2. Re:Don't be so naive by Grrr · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes... Security through obscurity...
      That's the ticket.

      <grrr>
    3. Re:Don't be so naive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as we have the media and the software/hardware in our hands the keys will always be broken.

      Sure, it might take them longer the next time but in the end it they will lose. All they need to do is make it such a pain in the ass that people don't want to crack it. Buying it is the simpler solution.

    4. Re:Don't be so naive by HeghmoH · · Score: 1

      They will make the same mistake again, because they must. The problem with any DRM scheme is that the DRM'd product must contain the decryption keys in it somewhere. If the product can get to them, hackers can get to them too.

      CSS was much weaker than that, of course, but I'm confident that even if CSS hadn't had stupid built-in vulnerabilities that it still would have been cracked, at the very least by grabbing decryption keys out of official hardware or software.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
  29. DeCSS and GNU status by BigFootApe · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Does this mean DeCSS is completely, legally, free software. I'm sure this would be good news to the fine folks from Xine, MPlayer, Ogle, and VLC. They could distribute much more fully featured products in mainstream distros.

    1. Re:DeCSS and GNU status by Chagatai · · Score: 1
      How do I feel? Like I'm stuck in a bad Christopher Lambert movie.

      OT, I know, but aren't all Christopher Lambert movies, by definition, bad?

      --
      --Chag
    2. Re:DeCSS and GNU status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      OT, I know, but aren't all Christopher Lambert movies, by definition, bad?

      There is one good one... because there can be only one!

  30. Re:CCA finally concedes CSS is no longer a secret. by Mark+Gordon · · Score: 1

    "Beatles"? Wouldn't it be "Beatle", in that case? Or are John and George hanging out with Elvis in convenience stores?

  31. At last! by stealth.c · · Score: 3, Interesting

    An article where the corporations AREN'T omnipotent. I agree with above posters: give a few spare clams to the EFF.

    Hopefully this is the first event among many where we begin to turn the tide against corporate power. What the Internet gives us is too important to get shackled down by bureaucrats. I want to be able to get news and information from anyone anywhere and with no middlemen but the ones *I* designate. We'll win this war eventually.

  32. It doesn't affect his case. by jbn-o · · Score: 4, Informative

    So, if it's no longer a trade secret in the US, does that mean that the Jon Johansen can finally quit worrying about the Norwegian government's appealing the second aquittal?

    Wikipedia says "Okokrim announced on January 5, 2004 that it would not appeal the case any further" (apparently Slashdot will not let me type the O with the slash through it, but it gives me the proper character in the editor area).

  33. DMCA? by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 5, Interesting
    IANAL, but could it be that the reason they backed away from this case is that they don't want the DMCA itself to undergo the judicial scrutiny that it would?

    It sure needs to, like, oh, shrinkwrap laws.

    1. Re:DMCA? by EnigmaticSource · · Score: 0, Redundant

      ...And of all the days I don't have mod points... But I do have my hat

      --
      The Geek in Black
      I know my BCD's (when I'm Sober)
  34. It's the principle of the thing by MichaelCrawford · · Score: 1
    None so far, but that's because I haven't traveled much the last few years.

    I'd like to be able to bring back DVDs with me when I do travel, because I know there are some not available to me here, and when I do, I want to watch them.

    --
    Request your free CD of my piano music.
  35. The DVD CCA is one thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but what about the DVDA?

    1. Re:The DVD CCA is one thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're so right, I bet the DVD Association would really be interested in this news...

  36. Makes You Wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why all of the sudden this was dropped? Considering the recent RIAA actions, the second persuit Jon Johannson, the movements to crackdown on bootlegs, etc?

    Why drop this? Makes me wonder what is up the sleeves.

  37. Does this mean by Catharz · · Score: 3, Funny

    copyleft are finally going to send me my goddamned t-shirts?

    --
    To know that you know what you know, and that you do not know what you do not know, that is true wisdom. --Scooby Doo
    1. Re:Does this mean by smchris · · Score: 1


      Sorry you missed out. Never got spit on and probably got positive feedback a surprising one in four times I wore it around just normal people out in the general public.

  38. A great day by eap · · Score: 1

    This is truly a great day for consumer freedom. We should all be thankful for what the DVDA has given us.

    1. Re:A great day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We should all be thankful for what the DVDA has given us.

      Sore butts and vaginas?

  39. This means I can erase ... by thrill12 · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...my tapes which I encoded with the C64 version of DeCSS again ?

    --
    Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
  40. Impact for Linux Distributions? by diakka · · Score: 0, Redundant

    So does this mean that Linux distributions will be able to play DVDs out of the box? or are there still patent issues with that?

    --
    -- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
    1. Re:Impact for Linux Distributions? by smchris · · Score: 1



      Maybe Red Hat but not Fedora (or any other downloadable version or license that allows redistribution)? Considering that the CSS link is all about how to get a license -- which I assume isn't free -- this would seem to follow.

      Could be a divisive issue.

  41. Visit my DeCSS mirror by MichaelCrawford · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Want to post your own DeCSS mirror? You can get it from my DeCSS mirror.

    It's been on the first page of hits at google for the query content scrambling system for a couple of years now.

    --
    Request your free CD of my piano music.
  42. Too damn old by siskbc · · Score: 4, Funny
    Yep, as soon as we can find a DVD player in this damn spaghetti System V code.

    I dunno about that, but you might find a serviceable 8-track player. Do those need decoding though?

    --

    -Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

  43. Correction... by benjamindees · · Score: 1

    *was* a trade secret until it was released into the wild under a half-assed encryption scheme.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  44. Re:CCA finally concedes CSS is no longer a secret. by Dr+Caleb · · Score: 1
    Paul is Dead????!!! You could have at least posted a spoiler alert!

    I have to go home and listen to the white album again *sniff*. :)

    --
    "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
  45. Reno vs. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Crashing through windows was more a signature of the Justice Department under Janet Reno. Under John Ashcroft, you just disappear in the middle of the night.

  46. So all I have to do to use a trade secret... by EvilStickMan · · Score: 1
    ...is to convince someone to do it first? Sweet!

    Now how do I get ahold of the guy who does the spices at KFC?

    1. Re:So all I have to do to use a trade secret... by glitch! · · Score: 1

      Now how do I get ahold of the guy who does the spices at KFC?
      That's easy: flour, salt, pepper, and monosodium glutamate. You can find all kinds of references for this. Here is one of them.

      --
      A dingo ate my sig...
  47. they have learned from their mistakes by sydlexic · · Score: 1

    they've realized it's too late for CSS. no law suit will materially change this.

    the next generation of higher density DVD is right around the corner. and you can bet it won't use CSS. that means linux is back out in the cold.

    1. Re:they have learned from their mistakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >the next generation of higher density DVD is right around the corner.
      >and you can bet it won't use CSS. that means linux is back out in the
      >cold.
      >
      >
      Nope. The next gen of DVD movies won't be playable on PC's period. You'll need a stand-alone player hooked up to a TV set.

    2. Re:they have learned from their mistakes by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Are they digital? Are they made on a pc?

      Would you like to make a bet about whether or not they will be playable on a computer whether that's the intention or not?

      So little faith, do you realize that thus far NOBODY has ever written encryption that has withstood the crack me I dare ya test, nobody has made a copyprotection scheme that has withstood. Nobody. Even billions of dollars isn't enough money to win out against the teaming millions of hackers and crackers out there with nothing better to do than give you the finger for telling them they don't own the DVD they just bought.

    3. Re:they have learned from their mistakes by sydlexic · · Score: 1

      CSS was 'cracked' because xing left all the CSS keys in one of it's product distributions by accident. That made it about a billion times easier to reverse-engineer. I'm not betting the new system will be cracked.

    4. Re:they have learned from their mistakes by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Except that CSS was cracked before that distribution. I'm betting like every other copy protection and security scheme that significant numbers are interested in breaking it, it WILL be cracked.

    5. Re:they have learned from their mistakes by Sam+H · · Score: 1

      CSS was 'cracked' because xing left all the CSS keys in one of it's product distributions by accident. That made it about a billion times easier to reverse-engineer. I'm not betting the new system will be cracked.

      No, Xing left only one CSS key (and I doubt they were even given the other keys anyway). It is Frank A. Stevenson's cryptanalysis and his playerkey test program that helped generate the list of all possible player keys.

      --
      God, root, what is difference ?
    6. Re:they have learned from their mistakes by sydlexic · · Score: 1

      thanks for the clarification. still, without the key, it's unlikely we would have DECSS.

  48. Is DeCSS really no longer a trade secret? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When they dropped the case, did they actually admit that it's no longer a trade secret? The second is much, much stronger than the former. If they admit it's not a trade secret, GNU/Linux DVD players are completely legally in the clear. If they simply stop prosecuting the case, it would certainly weaken the trade secret (since they are required to take active measures to keep it secret under trade secret laws), but they could potentially still prosecute others. It would still have to be struck down as a trade secret in a court of law, or openly admitted to not being one...

    It hasn't been a legally enforcable trade secret for a while, but they could still throw enough legal $$$ to harass most people not to distribute it. If they admit it's not one, they won't be able to do that anymore (it'll get struct down in court in 5 minutes and 0 dollars, rather than months or years and hundreds of grand).

    It'll also mean they're no longer bad guys, and I'll be able to stop undermining them in every way possible. Or at least with respect to DVDs... I'll have to investigate whether they are doing anything else evil first...

    1. Re:Is DeCSS really no longer a trade secret? by f0rt0r · · Score: 1

      Good question. I mean, just because it is ok to publish the code, is it automatically ok to use it? What if it's a weird license where the code is inspectable ( open ) but usage requires payment to Macrovision or whoever wrote it?

      --
      I can't afford a sig!
    2. Re:Is DeCSS really no longer a trade secret? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Linux players still would be illegal, unless the maker has bought a license to use CSS from the DVD CCA, and is paying the appropriate royalties per distribution; I believe it's something like twenty bucks.

      This is why the Xbox sells the DVD player separately; so that those of us with no intention of ever using it as a DVD player aren't paying the licensing fee for nothing.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  49. DMCA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The content of the DVD is copyrighted and the DMCA is still in effect. So you are no longer violating trade secrets but you are still bypassing copy and access controls. Even though the access is for perfectly legal and understandable purposes it is still illegal. Such is the crappiness of the DMCA.

    1. Re:DMCA by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Well, if it is no longer a trade secret, is it still an effective control by the statute?

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    2. Re:DMCA by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Yes but are you still bypassing the copy and access controls if you FULLY implement CSS including copyprotection mechanisms but with your own software?

    3. Re:DMCA by mattdm · · Score: 1

      sure. but that's not an issue of licensing technology -- it's a whole separate problem.

  50. The CSS acquittal is final now by Kjella · · Score: 1

    It really didn't make the news because it's basicly a one-liner. The deadline for appealing to the Supreme court passed without an appeal filed. The ruling is final, there can be no retrial.

    They've suffered two straight losses in court, and chose not to appeal it. Unlike the US, the fact that they could have appealed but didn't is setting precedent.

    The previous rulings were so clear, the prosecution didn't even want to try arguing that the law should be interpreted to their favor before the Supreme court.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  51. DVD CCA Drops Case; DeCSS Not a Trade Secret by infiniphonic · · Score: 0, Redundant

    hopefully this will mean a real reliable DVD application for linux.

    --
    Crisis is the rule, not the exception.
  52. No longer trade secret violation but still illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's still trafficing in copy control circumvention devices which under the DMCA is illegal. Also, the version you posted is possibly a trademark violation, though you could possibly claim protection as it wasn't commercial speech or because it is political commentary. And, of course, IANAL.

  53. In this case, yes. by Svartalf · · Score: 1

    If they concede on a Trade Secret case, it's over. They can't pursue anyone over that subject again.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  54. One Last Step by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now if I can only get my soundcard to work in either 2.4.22 or 2.6.0.

    --
    0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
    1. Re:One Last Step by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try ALSA. I had OSS issues going to 2.6. All fine now though.

  55. that's because of HD DVD by wotevah · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You know why they are conceding, that's because the new HD DVD standard will have a different kind of protection, and this time they will get it "right" by patenting some part of it (hopefully not).

    1. Re:that's because of HD DVD by evilviper · · Score: 1
      this time they will get it "right" by patenting some part of it

      Either you're kidding, or you don't know what a patent is...

      By definition, patents are publically available. They cannot be trade-secrets, because they can't be secret.

      So, they could use a patent to charge fees for companies making HD DVD products (for years, until the patent expires), but they are also just giving away the "secret" of how to decrypt and copy those HD DVDs.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re:that's because of HD DVD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he meant patent a critical component and keep the rest of the algorithm and the key secret. At least that's how I read it.

    3. Re:that's because of HD DVD by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      That just allows us to be one step closer to reverse engineering the entire system. Patents do not hold force against items you create for personal use. Once the "secret" parts are reverse engineered and completed, the only thing left is to personally implement the patentable part. Royalty free personal use is part of the code IIRC.

      Of course, the problem comes in where the distribution occurs. How much can I give you before I've crossed the line? C code isn't useable, it's just the "parts". If I gave you a bunch of seeminly generic gears and you made a Wankel engine out of it would it be an infringement? If the engine were't patented but a particular gear was, and I let you borrow the jig I made to creat that part, knowing you had a the tools and material?

      When jig -> code, and tools -> assembler, and material -> electrons or magnetic states...well, that's why the whole system is broken I suppose.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  56. Moderators get a clue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The above may be interesting, but only because it's interesting to gawk at a trainwreck. Because something is not secret does not mean "you can do anything you want with it." See copyright law. See trademark law. See patent law. See the DMCA.

    1. Re:Moderators get a clue by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Hey, moron, what the fuck do trademark and patent law have to do with anything? Decrypting CSS is not under a patent, and trademarks don't have anything to do with this issue.

      And the DMCA is copyright law, duh. I'd let that one slip except you obviously had no idea what you were talking about in the first place.

      So, you not only replied to an obvious troll, but you replied in such a way that shows you have absolutely no knowledge of the issue.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  57. Over 50% for me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm in New Zealand (Region 4). Roughly 50% of my DVDs are from the US, and 10% are from Europe. This is out of a collection of a hundred or so DVDs.

    So, yep, region free is definitely important for me.

    1. Re:Over 50% for me. by taniwha · · Score: 2, Informative

      for the Americans reading - NZ (and Oz) were both included in a primarily spanish speaking region (South America - go figure) - there's lots of english language stuff that just isn't released for them

  58. Failure to pursue translates into the conclusion.. by Svartalf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Either it's a Trade Secret and they vigorously pursue the violator- or they completely lose the ability to pursue anyone with regards to the secret in question (as it's no longer one...).

    For the DVD CCA to decide to no longer pursue the case means nobody will be harassed by them in this regard- if they do, they can and will face harassment or misuse of procedure countersuits that they'll lose.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  59. That's not because of this case... by Svartalf · · Score: 1

    That's a DMCA related decision. It'd have to go before the appeals court for that circuit to be removed- or the Judge who made the decision changing his mind about the order in question.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  60. Re:THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING -- BREATH MANUALLY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I here by nominate you for the troll of the year award.

  61. Re: DVD application for linux by max+born · · Score: 1

    Try ogle.

    You can make mpegs from dvds with transcode

    Don't forget to share them on your favorite P2P network.

  62. Oh, sorry mate.. by msimm · · Score: 1

    I thought that was mine.

    --
    Quack, quack.
  63. damn! by standsolid · · Score: 2, Funny

    now my copyleft t-shirt isn't cool anymore :(

    --
    WTPOUAWYHTTOTWPA
    What's the point of using acronyms when you have to type out the whole phrase anyways?
  64. In lieu of profits? by msimm · · Score: 1

    I don't think so. More likely because of the HD DVD stanard.

    --
    Quack, quack.
  65. Trademarks and secrets, ya. patents and C, no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is true of trademarks and trade secrets, but not of patents and copyright. You can selectively enforce those till the cows come home, or until the sufficiently unlikely circumstance of your choice.

  66. I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by msimm · · Score: 1

    distros. Its libdecss that you need to install in order to view DVD. If there is a problem with distributing mpeg2 libraries it hasn't stopped anyone.

    --
    Quack, quack.
    1. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and same with MP3 and MPEG1 players. MP3 and MPEG1 are covered by patents, but that doesn't seem to bother most people.

    2. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by Natalie's+Hot+Grits · · Score: 3, Informative

      Mpeg1 and 2 (including layer 3 a la MP3) are covered by patents for encoding.

      If the decoding process IS patented, it does not carry a royalty. That is how mp3 became popular, because it was free to download the players. mpeg1 and 2 are the same way when it comes to video.

      --
      Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
    3. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by juhaz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's covered for decoding too.

      MP3 decoding didn't carry a royalty and thus became popular, but after that happened they became greedy and now want to charge from it.

      Most of the people don't care about that, but technically it's still patented.

    4. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that MPEG2 decoding requires a royalty. Neither Windows nor MacOS ship with an MPEG2 decoder.

    5. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      MP3 decoding is patented, unlicensed decoders are ok (currently) if the decoder is free.

      This is one of the reasons why many games are moving over to Ogg for their background music - Fraunhoffer's tariffs includes royalties on decoders in commercial games.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    6. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by Natalie's+Hot+Grits · · Score: 1

      tariff?

      I didn't know that fraunhoffer charged a tax for MP3 Decoding imports to its country.

      --
      Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
    7. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not a "tax", no. Taxes are levied by governments. And I have no idea what you mean by "imports to its country" unless you're making some very peculiar pun on the meaning of the word "tariff". But yes, Fraunhoffer does have the legal right to set a tariff for users of its patented technologies, and it does.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    8. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by Zarquon · · Score: 1

      (Note: This may be USA-only usage; the OED is by subscription only.)
      241348 appears to be referring to the more specific meaning of tariff (from m-w.com)

      1a: a schedule of duties imposed by a government on imported or in some countries exported goods
      b: a duty or rate of duty imposed in such a schedule.

      While you were using it in the more generic form:

      2: a schedule of rates or charges of a business or a public utility

      Generally the money one charges on patents is referred to as 'royalties'.

      --
      "'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
    9. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by asm0deu5 · · Score: 1

      OS X includes the Apple DVD Player.

    10. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No? Then how do you explain the DVD player included in Mac OS X?

    11. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      The money itself is refered to as royalties. A list of prices however is always going to be a tariff (or "price list" or "schedule of charges" but "tariff" is less clumsy than "price list".) Fraunhoffer does publish such a tariff (they don't publish royalties, they get royalties.)

      I must admit I'm surprised the word has generated confusion. It seems common enough. I guess the obsession of late with taxes and the number of companies in the US that feel pricing should be on a negotiation basis has meant a generation growing up without hearing the word in its general context.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    12. Re:I'm pretty sure mpeg2 is included with most.. by Zarquon · · Score: 1

      Hmm.. I'd have to agree that that meaning of tariff is falling out of common usage, at least here. "Price list" "Schedule of Fees" "Royalty Schedule" all seem more common in this context.

      The other thing about royalty payments is so many firms have cross-licensing schemes nowadays; only newcomers have to pay the piper, and the price often ends up 'all the market will bear' for them (50k minimum units or such).

      --
      "'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
  67. Never really been a problem by KalvinB · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You just needed to buy one DVD player per region you wanted to watch.

    I don't think any DVD players are incapable of playing DVDs from other regions. They just lock you into a region after certain criteria are met.

    So really, this whole exercise didn't prevent anything it was intended to prevent and just lined the pockets of DVD player manufacturers.

    With players comming down to $50 or less, there's less and less incentive to not purchase an additional player for other regions.

    And there already are DVD players out there that can be hacked to be region free. You just have to hunt for them.

    Ben

  68. Re:THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING -- BREATH MANUALLY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I'm tryin' 2 do work here in class and your'e making me think of my feet in my socks??

    Ya Bastard. I hope you don't think of Pink Elephants.

  69. There are still disturbing precedents... by Hamster+Lover · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In essence, it all comes down to the EULA that accompanied the software that Jon Johansen reverse engineered in the first place.

    The DVD CCA was succesful in the Supreme Court of California in establishing that the provisions of the EULA that prohibited reverse engineering were enforceable and constituted discovery by "improper means".

    There are other serious precedents, namely that no one may reverse engineer a software product for the purpose of interoptability where the EULA strictly forbids it, that the EULA of any software product is enforcable and most distressing of of all, that trade secret law trumps the First Amendment (under very narrow circumstances, granted).

    Even with the case dismissed, these precedents stand in the State of California, do they not?

  70. Re:CCA finally concedes CSS is no longer a secret. by soft_guy · · Score: 1

    Both Ringo Starr and Pete Best are alive. Once a Beatle, always a Beatle.

    --
    Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  71. In other news..... by linkdead · · Score: 1

    Sun has announced that CSS will be added to their line of Java-cooling(tm) systems. So now geeks can have their DVD decoding, cool CPUs, and the ability to drink it too ;)

  72. A frightening possibility by DarkSarin · · Score: 1

    Perhaps its because they have come up with an encryption scheme that is even better (from the industry standpoint) and tougher.

    This is frightening because it may mean that all movies after a certain date are going to require newer dvd players.

    I don't know (absolutely 0 connections in the field), but it is a frightening thought.

    --
    "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    1. Re:A frightening possibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt it, i really do. You see, *normal* people now have and enjoy DVDs, not just geeks and technophiles. Imagine the uproar when all new DVDs cannot be played on current DVD players.

    2. Re:A frightening possibility by DarkSarin · · Score: 1

      I have, and that's why I agree that it is unlikely. THese days, though, it is hard to tell.

      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    3. Re:A frightening possibility by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

      My guess is that there'll be an encryption change (coupled with DRM) when the next major format change occurs.

      I doubt very much that the populace as a whole will bother too much about changing to another "silver disc" format from CD and DVD (after all, Mini-Disc is popular for music but only from a portability point of view, it would never have dislodged CD format) but when music and video starts getting distributed on memory cards (when they're cheap enough), that's when all the new security and anti-copying stuff will appear.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  73. Its my birthday by ireallylovelinux · · Score: 1

    Awesome birthday present!

  74. Re:THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING -- BREATH MANUALLY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damnit, you made me breathe manually. Fucking trolls.

  75. Which software/process? by sacrilicious · · Score: 1
    my dvd burner does [copy dvds]. It has to shrink them

    If you would, please post a bit more detail, as this is something I'd like to do. I've had very good luck with DVDShrink, but the only thing is I haven't been able to figure out how to keep the menus intact.

    --
    - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
    1. Re:Which software/process? by CyberLord+Seven · · Score: 1

      If you want to make backup copies of your legally purchased DVDs, look for DVD Decrypter, and IFOEdit. DVDShrink does not have any way of bypassing CSS which is why you should use DVD Decrypter to move the movie to your harddrive first. Then if the DVD is larger than a DVD-5 you can split the movie into two disks with IFOEdit or just shrink it with DVDShrink. While you're at it, look into the TOOLS -- SETTINGS option in DVD Decrypter and turn off other restrictions. This way your backup will allow you to skip any commercials or other annoyances you don't want to bother with. This once secondary benefit of backups has become increasingly important to me as I have noticed a decided INCREASE in the number of DVDs that make it difficult to skip the commercials. One word of warning, I have NOT been able to play my backup movies on my PS2 or my set-top DVD player if I use DVD Shrink. If this is important to you then you should use the DVD Decrypter to IFOEdit process. There are guides published on the net so just search if you need instructions. Then be patient and recognise that you WILL make a few coasters. The process is very simple if you have the patience to read, study and apply what you learn. Good luck. :)

      --
      We have always been at war with Eurasia!
  76. Re:CCA finally concedes CSS is no longer a secret. by Shinmizu · · Score: 1

    Actually, it's just a ploy at immortality. If even Death him/herself played the record backwards and thought that Paul was already dead, well...

  77. Re:Failure to pursue translates into the conclusio by DavidTC · · Score: 1
    Actually, the gag is that they lose it no matter what.

    You can't 'resecret' a trade secret. You can sue the person who stole it if they stole it illegally, and you can, in theory, prohibit the thief (the person you are suing) from giving it out or using it as part of the suit judgement, with the threat of more punishment if they do.

    What you cannot do it get some magical 'back in the bottle' judgement when it's already been given out to anyone else. You cannot stop people who did nothing illegal from using or giving away your trade secret, even if it was 'stolen'.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  78. libdvdcss is NOT DeCSS by kjj · · Score: 1

    One of the reasons that DeCSS was ruled as violating the DMCA was that the software was actually a windows program that was able to extract the contents from a DVD and save the unencrypted contents in a file on the hard drive. The MPAA argued how this would allow anybody to make copies and that the hard drive copy itself could be considered and illegal copy. The Linux port of DeCSS was basically identical and saved DVD contents to the hard drive as well. Both versions where programs that ran as standalone applications.

    Now compare this to a separate piece of code called libdvdcss. This library was originally created using some code from DeCSS and some other sources, but much of the code was created from scratch using analysis papers on the CSS algorithm. I believe almost all the original code is long gone now. Now that the algorithm is no longer a trade secret, it should not be illegal to use these analysis paper and other information about CSS. Now the question is should the DMCA and the DeCSS ruling be applied to libdvdcss as well.

    One thing it is not even proper to call it a program. It is a library. If you compile it or even if you receive it as a precompiled binary and install it, it is perfectly useless without another program. Another thing is that if you look at the API for libdvdcss there is nothing in the design that supports copying. Decrypted information is placed in memory and not on the hard drive. This is to allow the data to be passed on to the decoding layer in other programs or libraries. When the library is used together with a player such as Xine you still do not have a the ability to copy the DVD. The only way for libdvdcss to be used in a way that violates the DMCA is for someone to write a separate program that uses libdvdcss to write the data to disk. I think I have heard of such programs. Maybe the MPAA should use the DMCA to go after those programs instead. They are the ones the are enabling copying and not the authors of the libdvdcss library. I am sure the MPAA would argue that libdvdcss makes it too easy to write a copying program, but I think it is a silly to say any set of libraries that can be abused should be illegal.

    Another thing is Lindows use of libdvdcss in there own forked version of Xine. The DVD CCA allowed Lindows to buy a license that grants them permission to play DVD in their own player. If indeed libdvdcss is a "cracking tool" under the DMCA, then the MPAA should be going after Lindows and even the DVD CCA for using the code, regardless of licenses. If not and libdvdcss can be considered legal for Lindows then it should be legal for everyone now that the trade secret issue is gone. I guess the DVD CCA is now saying that it could try to claim some patents but I didn't think that the CSS algorithm was patented.

  79. libdvdcss is a different animal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    libdvdcss does not have DeCSS code in it.

  80. I'm Andrew Bunner -- here's my reaction by kinesis · · Score: 4, Funny

    So I'm the "Bunner" in DVD CCA vs Bunner. If you could look in my out-box today, here's what you'd see:

    Friends and family,

    My fifteen minutes of fame are over. The DVD CCA is dropping their case against me. For those that don't remember, I was sued in late 1999 for posting the source code to a software DVD player on my web site. The plaintifs included Sony, MGM, Panasonic, Microsoft, Warner-Brothers, and most other corporations in either media or electronics.

    Today, they gave up. They've withdrawn the case
    without prejudice.

    Reading between the lines that means that they finally realized they were going to lose and that even if they won, the "secrets" of playing a DVD have been pretty well documented for the public.

    To celebrate the occassion, I've asked my lawyers to file a counter-suit alleging emotional anguish and seeking damages of one hundred billion trillion dollars.

    -- Andrew

  81. THINK ABOUT HOLDING IN YOUR FECES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just think! If you think about the fact that your body holds in your feces involuntarily, then you are forced to hold them in on manually! In fact you are probably reaching for your ass cheeks now to keep the flow of bolus from streaming out of you like bats out of Bob Goatse's cave. In fact, by even responding to this troll you are proving that yet another person has been forced to hold their feces in manually! Yes you!!

  82. there's lots of region-free players by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    A lot of DVD players these days can be region-free, just not officially. Many include a hidden menu that you access through a sequence of remote-control keypresses, that lets you disable region coding. I'm not entirely sure, but it's probably for plausible deniability ("we didn't know our programmers slipped that in there!").

    As one option, the LiteOn LVD-2002 (or -2001 or -2003) has such a feature (just google for "LiteOn Secret Menu" or "LiteOn region free menu" or some variant), and plays DivX's burned onto CD-R's as an added bonus.

    1. Re:there's lots of region-free players by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in region 1 and I bought the Liteon LVD-2001. It has been all region enabled (region 0). Works pretty well as I have a few Japanese, Hong Kong, and one Italian movies. The only thing is that there are a couple region 1 movies which won't play now -- instead show a map of the world and tell me to play them in a region 1 player. Since the LVD-2001 can play DivX movies off of CDR and DVD-R I've just reincoded them as DivX using ffmepeg. Works great.

  83. [Going OT] Re:DeCSS and GNU status by BigFootApe · · Score: 1

    It's like this:

    A good Christopher Lambert movie is an otherwise unremarkable film which stars Christopher Lambert. It is not impossible to watch such a film. Examples include Highlander, Knight Moves, Subway, etc.

    A bad Christopher Lambert is usually completely unwatchable, although sometimes one can manage when campiness is factored in (much the same as with Zardoz). Examples include Fortress, Highlander sequels [1,2], etc.

  84. Patent doesn't let you independently reimplement by Goonie · · Score: 1
    Patents are different to copyrights. You can independently reimplement the same functionality, in pretty much the same way, as code somebody's copyrighted, just as you don't copy the code itself. This is why Samba, and Linux itself, are legal (notwithstanding BS from SCO).

    However, if you get a patent for "encoding sound into this bit sequence", like Fraunhofer has, you can't get around that by doing an independent reimplementation.

    In essence, copyright protects the specific expression of an idea. Patents protect the idea.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
  85. Re: CopyLeft dropping orders. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last August, I put in 3 orders with Copyleft. The first was for a T-shirt, the second was for some stickers, and the third was for blank CD media with the Debian logo for my .

    Two months later, I was still waiting for the orders.

    Emailed several times, no answer. Called, got a girl who didn't even work for them. Claimed the guys running it only did it part time now.

    Went to their site, cancelled the orders, never was sure if they cancelled, because their script was busted. Never got charged, but never got my gear either.

    Sad. I'll be doing business with ThinkGeek or locally from now on.

  86. I forgot to add... by soft_guy · · Score: 1

    ... so how is it different that reverse engineering a DVD player? If I read a book and make a movie based on it, that would seem less protected than a straight lifting of the idea of a DVD player.

    --
    Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  87. Non-obvious? by tepples · · Score: 1

    if you get a patent for "encoding sound into this bit sequence", like Fraunhofer has, you can't get around that by doing an independent reimplementation.

    But if you reimplement the invention soon enough after the inventor applied for a patent, it might count as evidence that the invention was obvious, given prior art, to anybody skilled in the art.

  88. "Effectively"? by tepples · · Score: 1

    You do have to go to some length to figure it out though.

    If it takes no longer to brute-force the CSS key than it takes to read and buffer the first twenty megabytes or so of encrypted data, then the CSS key doesn't protect anything very "effectively" now, does it?

    1. Re:"Effectively"? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you have to go to an unusual step of decrypting. I think the idea is that you will see there's a lock there, and decide that you other people don't want you to access it. There isn't really another reasonable purpose for CSS other than to prevent access.

      Not quite sure why I'm arguing. I think the whole mechanism from implementation to legal backing is flawed at least,and based on false assumptions. Still, I think that if you assume that the law is valid, and that the assumption that the only pirates want access to the key is valid, then it's reasonable to argue that CSS protects it. It differs from a compression scheme, since it has a secret key, and it differs from a modulo add, since that is simply a different way of representing digits.

      The fact that the key and algorithm are embedded in an executable, in which there is no barrier to acces sit prevents it from becoming a trade secret. Once you release any product, I think reverse engineering is fair game. Nobody stops me from taking any physical good apart to see how they work.

  89. Many by Slashamatic · · Score: 1

    We currently live in Germany. My wife is Russian. We watch movies in English, German and Russian. We see Region 1,2 and 5.

  90. Speaking as a defendant by OriginalArlen · · Score: 2, Interesting
    (I'm Doe #13 in the original restraining order) I found the whole surreal experience both interesting and enlightening experience - really brought home to me how broken the US legal system is, that it took over 4 years for them to accept that actually, I have at no time ever offered to sell pirated movies. I aonly just discovered that they'd accused me of this by following some links and searching for 'zpok' (my hostname at the time) on the EFF - found testimony by a DVDCCA attorney about how he found I was an evil pirate, sent me a letter "by electronic mail" and so forth. Laughable if it wasn't so serious. Of course I never pirated a movie or audio recording in my life, I don't run any P2P or file trading apps, all I did was mirror deCSS source on the site. Pah! Losers! :)

    I'd still like to know why they thought California state law had jurisdiction over the UK though.

    As luck would have it we have a delayed departmental Xmas do tonight (we were all working too hard before xmas to have it then) - look out London, I'm really ready to party now :))

    --

    Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
  91. Asian DVD region locks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Depending on which part of Asia you buy your DVDs from, region locking may not be an issue. In Bangladesh were almost all DVDs sold are pirate imports from Singapore and Malaysia, there are is region coding whatsoever on the DVDs.

  92. If that's the case by Walkiry · · Score: 1

    All that will happen is that I'll stop purchasing DVDs, same as I stopped purchasing CDs over 3 years ago.

    There's still books and videogames. Of course, the second will disappear as soon as Palladium comes along (out of spite, as usual), and by the looks of it project Gutenbert will run out of books if Disney keeps pushing copyright longer and longer.

    You're right, it IS frigtening, I might have to step out of the house one of these days! :)

    --
    ---- Take the Space Quiz!
  93. Re: Sue in response then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once they drop the case before going to the Supreme Court, you then turn around and sue them for harrassment and take it to the supreme court arguing they shouldn't be allowed to harrass you with the DCMA for the particular part of the law they are afraid they'll lose on! And make sure you set precident!

  94. Firmware upgrade by trezor · · Score: 1

    You can get custom hacked firmware for your drive, specified by manufacturer and drive-revision. This makes your drive RPC1, ie enables unlimited sone-changes.

    Take a look at thid dvd firmware page. There are probably alot more pages, but this was the first I found with google.

    If you use Windows however, you should beware. Your OS or/and Player might be counting too. Use DVD Genuie.

    That should get rid of those nasty zones.

    --
    Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
    1. Re:Firmware upgrade by a24061 · · Score: 1

      I haven't started trying to play DVDs on my Linux system yet, but I appreciate the useful information.

  95. What is "encryption"? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Yes, but you have to go to an unusual step of decrypting.

    You have to "decrypt" MP3 files with Winamp to be able to play them on PCM hardware too.

    It differs from a compression scheme, since it has a secret key

    A key of that length isn't very "secret". In practical, human-scale terms, CSS is no more "secret" than a Caesar cipher, as it takes no longer to decrypt a text than to copy an encrypted text.

    it differs from a modulo add, since that is simply a different way of representing digits.

    And CSS is "simply a different way of representing" data.

    Watch somebody implement CSS as a stream cipher for one of the popular crypto APIs. Then it'd have a substantial non-circumventing use as required by 1201(b). In fact, any general-use program that brute-forces encryption keys has a substantial non-circumventing use, namely that of research into the strength of the cipher.

    1. Re:What is "encryption"? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      You have to "decrypt" MP3 files with Winamp to be able to play them on PCM hardware too.

      No you don't. The intention of encoding the mp3 isn't obfuscation. It's compression. There is clearly a difference. I'm sure most cryptographers would be on your case pretty damn quick if you even suggested that mp3 was an encryption mechanism, whereas they would probably say that CSS is an encryption mechanism, albeit a poor one.

      A key of that length isn't very "secret". In practical, human-scale terms, CSS is no more "secret" than a Caesar cipher, as it takes no longer to decrypt a text than to copy an encrypted text.

      So, what length is secret?

      CSS is a lot more secret than a caesar cipher. There are only 26 possible keys to brute force for caesar. There are substantially more possible CSS keys. Anyway, I'm not sure it can be reasonably brute forced. At 100 million keys per second, it will still take some hours to break.

      And CSS is "simply a different way of representing" data.

      Hardly. It's a way of obfuscating data.

      Watch somebody implement CSS as a stream cipher for one of the popular crypto APIs. Then it'd have a substantial non-circumventing use as required by 1201(b). In fact, any general-use program that brute-forces encryption keys has a substantial non-circumventing use, namely that of research into the strength of the cipher.

      I agree. The DMCA's restrictions on reverse engineering are draconian and largely illogical. I just can't agree that a weak encryption mechanism should be excluded from the law purely because it is weak. I will agree that the law shouldn't protect them in the first place.

  96. How pitifully weak is it? by tepples · · Score: 1

    So, what length is secret?

    According to the tenets of cryptography, a cipher applied to a work is considered secure with regard to key length if it takes more effort to brute-force the crypto than to go about gaining access to the work some other way.

    Anyway, I'm not sure it can be reasonably brute forced. At 100 million keys per second, it will still take some hours to break.

    Frank Stevenson reports three attacks on various parts of CSS, ranging in complexity from 2^24 to 2^8. For a ballpark comparison, my PC bought in late 2000 running the distributed.net client can run through 2^20 RC5 keys in one second. With such a short time to break, the limiting factor for DVD decryption becomes not the time to brute-force the key but rather the time to read all the data from the optical disc. The user of an app that plays DVD Video discs using a brute-force CSS implementation might not even notice the delay.

    I just can't agree that a weak encryption mechanism should be excluded from the law purely because it is weak.

    Would you approve of XOR with a constant 8-bit key being called "encryption"?

    I will agree that the law shouldn't protect them in the first place.

    Judicially narrowing the scope of what constitutes "access control" with respect to the strength of the crypto involved may work toward accomplishing this goal. In addition, have courts determined what constitutes "authority of the copyright owner"?

    1. Re:How pitifully weak is it? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Frank Stevenson reports three attacks on various parts of CSS, ranging in complexity from 2^24 to 2^8. For a ballpark comparison, my PC bought in late 2000 running the distributed.net client can run through 2^20 RC5 keys in one second.

      Surely if there are methods that don't require an exhaustive search, that means that it's broken rather than it's weak though. It wasn't broken when it was decided on. (I'm no expert on crypto, so I may be wrong). It was still weak when it was decided on, but that's another matter.

      Would you approve of XOR with a constant 8-bit key being called "encryption"?

      Nope. That's already broken, and trivial. You can get the key by XORing the plaintext with the encrypted text.

  97. broken by tepples · · Score: 1

    [The CSS stream cipher] wasn't broken when it was decided on.

    Sure it was. The tallest mountain on Earth before explorers found Mt. Everest was still Mt. Everest. A fresh installation of any 32-bit Microsoft Windows operating system has always had bugs, even before black-hats exploited them. Likewise, CSS was always broken, just not known so.

    1. Re:broken by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Well, okay, but for all we know, all known encryptions schemes may well be broken. It wasn't known to be broken when it was decided on.

  98. DVD region code and other things cleared up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the region code is in the IFO file, set the right value to 0 and it becomes region free.A dvd player reads this to play a movie. Also 2 things make retail dvd larger than dvd r. one they dont use error checking on the file system ( beacuse the mpeg stream already has it) and two they use 2 layers on one side. a dvd platter can have up to four sides.

    when you decrypt a movie you have an exact copy when you recompress mpeg2 you loose a little to a lot (depending how big the movie is). If you want to keep and exact copy you could burn a dual dvd on 2 cd -r

    also of note mp3 is the audio layer of mpeg. mp3 stands for mpeg layer three. so it would stand to reason that mp3 is under the same license.

    the reason we can even decrypt the stream is that the key was only 52 bit or some where around there. When dvd's came out the hard ware was not at a point to decrypt more on the fly. With HDDVD coming out You can bet thats going to change a cheap dsp can easily handle 128 to 1024 or higher.

  99. You don't know what you're talking about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know from *personal* experience that the DMCA does indeed claim to make access to a work you purchased legally ILLEGAL if you circumvent a copy or access control in order to access it. It also purports to make distribution (and the courts have extended it to linking) of tools which circumvent copy or access controls ILLEGAL.

    In short, you're smoking crack and I'd like to see you back up your statements with some evidence.

    Elcomsoft was acquitted by a jury because they thought the law was "too complicated" (which it is) and that the defendant had not intentionally acted in bad faith. Basically the jury said this is crap... let's think up some random reasons which are not supported by law to acquit. That's not case law. Only the judge can make determinations of law in a case. The jury's job is the weigh evidence presented by both sides to make determinations of fact. Why the judge let them acquit when they ignored the law I don't know but it doesn't matter since the case was also not appealed. (Only appealed cases can create case law.)

    In summary DeCSS is still illegal under the DMCA but 99% of Slashdot refuses to admit it because they can't be bothered to do a little research. Yes, I'd also like to think the DMCA is not relevant. It may in fact be Unconstitutional. But no court has made that determination yet.

    Have a nice day. :)