Slashdot Mirror
Changing Jobs for Job Satisfaction?
I-love-my-work, who is considering rejoining the IT world after a stint in business, asks: "A molecular biologist with a PhD at University of
Birmingham, in the UK, quits his lab position to become a plumber, since a plumber apparently earns twice what he currently makes (~US$42K).
How many of you would change careers if given a chance? What factors would influence the decision (money, hours, upper management, a chance to enjoy more of your life)?" What factors would make you seriously consider leaving your current career for another?
Paid? I'm supposed to get Paid?!
Duuuude....
I have considered this time and time again but the only thing keeping me from changing out of IT to something more gratifying is money.
i am we todd did... i am sofa king we todd did
And believe you me, Steve Jobs was PISSED. When he finally got out of the closet where I was keeping him, he killed the cloned Steve Jobs I made, and fired me.
....and you'll never have to work a day in your life :-)
What would you do if you had a million dollars?
Besides 2 chicks at the same time?
Well yeah
I'd do absolutly nothing...
=)
I work in the software industry, and the recent death of a co-worker has me thinking about what I do with my time. Could I support my family with an at-home job? Could I work somewhere that lets me spend more time with my kids?
Sure, I make pretty good scratch, but what fun is the money if you never get a chance to spend it?
These questions and more are definately floating around our office.
It is simple really, it is a pay me world and I want to get paid. I think I'll be happy doing whatever so long as it pays well and I can live comfortably. Of course the hour worked is also a quality look for in a job. I don't exactly want to spend my weekends working.
-----
One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
If I ever get an offer for the position of "Beatle", I'm outta here.
That's "Mr. Soulless Automaton" to you, Bub.
All day long, every day, I find bugs in software and kill those bugs.
I just found out that I would make more money if I spend all day long, every day, finding bugs under furniture and kill those bugs.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
...lets you change jobs without changing careers. You do become the final level of responsibility and you have to do some bookkeeping and bill collecting, but you have complete control of your work environment and hours. When you work long and hard, you directly benefit. With proper planning you can take large blocks of time off for whatever.
I spent 5 years getting a BC in CS to do a job that a flea-infested, poo-flinging resus monkey could do in its sleep. And I've been doing the same thing for 18 months this week. Quite frankly I'm ready to start considering a change, since I pretty much have a snowball's chance in hell of finding something else in the IT field. I've already informed some of my superiors that if they don't place me in something that more effectively uses my abilities, I'm probably leaving. They've been dangling a carrot in front of me for months about an actual programming position...yeah right.
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Yea, this offshoring is rather annoying. All the textile jobs moved offshore, so people got into IT. All the IT jobs are moving offshore, so where do we go? What happens when plumbing jobs go offshore? We'll eventually be a country of rich corporations and unemployed citizens. Well, maybe that's a bit of a longshot, but it makes you wonder.
"This amp is special, see all the knobs go up to 11, that means it is one louder than other amps"
To go from an air conditioned lab to unclogging shitters is not my idea of job satisfaction.
I'm thinking of moving out of the IT industry...
What I'm looking for:
Reasonable job satisfaction- No more adjusting the settings on something that's going to get screwed up constantly or need non-stop maintenance. Something physical. And preferably something that people don't consider vital to their life. I can't even guess how many day-traders have threatened to hold me responsible for their ISP being down...
Human interaction-And by human, I don't mean people that can't use their computers.
Being in a job where the only people you see for months on end are 7 other guys kind of gets old. Especially if you don't get out a lot.
Money will/would be nice, but my expenses are low, so I'm fortunate that it won't be a primary concern.
I had a sucky sig.
I agree. I would rather love my job making 20K a year than hate my job making 100K a year.
I was a highly-paid dot-com bubble programmer, and then I was asked to become a vacationer overnight.
Seriously though, it was a very pleasant experience : 2 years of absolute slacking, doing only what I wanted on the money I had made during the bubble, recovering from 5 years of uninterrupted software development death marches that had left me kind of sick, and reflecting on all the mistakes I will never make in the future, either as an employee or as an entrepreneur.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
One professor of mathematics noticed that his kitchen sink at his home broke down. He called a plumber. The plumber came on the next day, sealed a few screws and everything was working as before. The professor was delighted. However, when the plumber gave him the bill a minute later, he was shocked. "This is one third of my monthly salary!" he yelled. Well, he paid and then the plumber said to him: "I understand your position as a professor. Why don't you come to our company and apply for a plumber position? You will earn three times as much as a professor. But remember, when you apply tell them that you completed only the seventh grade. They don't like educated people."
So it happened. The professor got a plumber job and his life significantly improved. He just had to seal a screw or two occasionally, and his salary went up significantly. One day, the board of the plumbing company decided that every plumber has to go to evening classes to complete the eighth grade. So, our professor had to go there too. It just happened that the first class was math. The evening teacher, to check student's knowledge, asked for a formula for the area of the circle. The person who was ask was the professor. He jumped to the board, and then he realized that he forgot the formula.
He started to reason it and soon filled the board with integrals, differentials and other advanced formulas to conclude the result that he had forgotten. As a result he got "negative pi times r squared." He didn't like the negative, so he started all over again. He got the negative sign again. No matter how many times he tried, he always got a negative. He was frustrated. He looked a bit scared at the class and saw all the plumbers whisper: "Switch the limits of the integral!!"
When men used to be men
"If you love what you do, you'll never have to work another day in your life."
THIS IS THE INTERNET. PLEASE PICK UP YOUR SERIOUS BUSINESS SUIT AT THE FRONT COUNTER.
I worked in IT for a good number of years, as everything from tech support to running a small computer shop. Eventually, I decided to try something else...I was getting sick of IT, sick of people. I went full tilt the other direction -- I became a trucker. The pay is the same or better (depending upon what I'm doing), and the satisfaction of getting things done, truly, is much better than the endless chain of people in tech support. Fixing pc's was never the same, nor was managing databases. I've also found that it's great seeing the country as a whole -- there's a lot of stuff out there you just don't get to enjoy when you're inside a building 8-12 hours a day.
I sing the doggie electric!
What happens when plumbing jobs go offshore? We'll eventually be a country of rich corporations and unemployed citizens.
And it'll smell, from all the shit piling up due to the lack of local plumbers!
On some really bad days, I sometimes consider leaving the IT industry and becoming a botanist.
What's the worst that could happen? Your bulbs don't germinate on time? Maybe some of your plants get some bugs... It's not like 500 employees breathing down your neck because the server is down.
But I would really miss working with the people. Go figure. The source of most of my IT pain is really the only reason for working in the industry.
Don't forget that the grass is always greener.
So chemists want to be he-man plumbers, swinging a pick and gaining satisfaction from building something tangible? Plumbers wish they could sit on their asses out of the weather and keep their fingers soft and clean on a keyboard all day. Programmers wish they could be making explosions in a chemistry lab, wearing a cool white coat and getting all the chicks!!
It's getting too stressful worrying about layoff-this, RSI-that. I work in an industry (3D animation) that in ten years will probably be smaller than it is now. When I change careers it will probably be because I'm too tired of being one of the rats clinging to Titanic's rigging. This used to be a job that I loved (and you're right, I never worked a day), but that has changed and it's a job now.
I'll switch careers when I find something that will make me as happy as doing 3d work did five years ago.
Getting paid 1/4 for job satisfaction? Nah..
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
What factors would make you seriously consider leaving your current career for another?
If I didn't like it, of course.
Right now, I work for a private college in the IT department. It's pleasant work, for the most part. Taking a job like this definitely caps your potential income, but frankly, there's a lot more important factors than money.
If I'm spending a third of my weekday hours somewhere, or more, why the hell would I do it somewhere I hate? That's like just _asking_ to be miserable the rest of the time.
--saint
Right now I'm a programmer but I am also an avid scuba diver. I wish I had the courage to quit my job and open up a dive operation in Akumal or somewhere similar.
Do they have broadband in Akumal?
Lord, bless my users that they may stop being such fucking idiots!!
I went from a career working in life sciences to programming because I was sick of science and lab work. Plus my new job paid twice what my old job did. Now I work as a bioinfromatics programmer. So, in the end, I have combined the two.
I changed out of IT after the crash in 2000. I started teaching college as a stopgap measure and found it immensely rewarding despite the drastic drop in pay. I got certified to teach math in Florida, and I'm now here looking to teach kids in the public school system. Job satisfaction was the only motivating factor.
"My ship came in, but was bombed by terrorists in port and sank." - Me
sit at home, hack perl code, and watch tv/listen to music. I work in my underwear most days...in fact I'm posting in my underwear. I have sex while i'm at work when my gf comes over. I can drink if i want, smoke whenever i want, get a tan on my deck since i have a laptop, whatever i want. sometimes i walk downtown and go to a coffee shop for a change of scenery.
:) what more can I ask for? maybe i could buy a house close to where i am now, which is 3 blocks from the beach.
plus i get paid well
perl -e '$_="\007/4`\cp%2,".chr(127);s/./"\"\\c$&\""/gees
A molecular biologist with a PhD at University of Birmingham, in the UK, quits his lab position to become a plumber, since a plumber apparently earns twice what he currently makes (~US$42K).
Hopefully if you are in science, you are doing what you do for reasons other than financial gain. Ideally, one should be doing what they are doing in science to make a difference . Really, because there are a ton of things people can do that are much easier that writing papers, doing good science and applying for grants that make much more money than do your typical scientist. Take for instance the auto mechanic who works on my neighbors BMW. That dude (mechanic) clears six figures easy. Another set of examples: Before I went to graduate school, one of my jobs was a mechanic for old Ferrari's and Lamborghini's. That was not too bad in terms of income and certainly covered the cost of tuition. The carpenter we paid to make our couch makes some pretty good money. The dudes that replaced our sewer line and driveway cleaned up to the tune of $4000 or so. So, if you are just in it for the money, go get an MBA or a plumbing license or something.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
The way I feel about it is this: I can sit in a cubicle doing what is essentially rearranging random ones and zeros into non-random order to create something of value (although most of my time is actually spent doing documentation, reports, supervision, meetings etc).
OR I can take a bunch of raw pieces of wood and create something that is not only beautiful, but allows a musician to create even more beauty and music.
Which one sounds more satisfying to you?
The more I write code the more I want to build guitars for a living.
[BTW, I'd love to add a shameless plug for my website right about here but I'd probably just slashdot myself and end up taking my whole site down]
If that were the choice, I'd rather hate my job for 5 years making $100k/year, put $80k each year in the bank and then quit my job and pay myself $20k each year for the next 25 years out of the saved money to do what I want ;).
Jason
ProfQuotes
PhD in Astronomy, 1998. My thesis dragged out endlessly so that once I'd finished it, I couldn't stand the thought of doing the work to create some papers out of it. Also, I wanted to come back home (New Zealand) and astronomy jobs are hard to get here.
1998-2003: Commercial programmer. OK at first, but eventually I was just doing the same old stuff again and again. I was getting very bored and I think because of that, unproductive.
So now I'm an applied mathematician in bioinformatics (having studied no biology since early high school). I was earning 40% more at the previous job, but it is worth it to be doing something interesting again.
Money is nice (a friend once called it "the sincerest form of appreciation") but having new, challenging and interesting things to do is more important.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
A junior technician (bachelor's degree) can make around $50K USD here in the US. A PhD can command more as a "mere lab tech." That's IF s/he wants to continue to do science. They can get jobs reasonably easily as *shudder!* consultants. In fact, I went to seminar on how to tweak your resume (a science PhD resume, anyway) to get a job in consulting.
I seriously doubt he'll be making over $100K USD after 5 years as a plumber. With his PhD he can, if he plays his cards right.
"It's so beautiful, I feel so ... I feel my juices are just you know ... it makes me so ... I want to write, I want to paint, I want to sculpt something massive. I've got a creative urge. I wonder if there's a men's room around here."
I'd give up my day job in a heartbeat if there was any money in the massive sculpture market.
There are 01 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary, and me.
you say that now, but once the checks start rolling in...
I was in a project that I loved, unfortunately, it ended. I then took another position within the company with a 25% raise attached. I absolutely hated the job and the subject matter was pretty rough, but I dealt with it.
Once that project dried up, I went back into development, took a 10% pay cut, but it's a much better fit.
It's not that I don't like software or don't like building things, but the real world of software engineering lacks the creativity and creationism I got into the field for in the first place. I do what my boss tells me to do. I follow a schedule. I spend the whole day gazing out my window, wishing I could spend the daylight hours outdoors. I feel like a factory worker.
:wq
Here.
This article is a little scattered. One person is quitting his job as a *molecular biologist with a Ph.D." to work as a plumber, while another person is switching to training greyhounds and yet another is just moving to Canada. The reasons for all of these changes may be way unrelated to each other.
...
But so what? Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean that you should. I've made in excess of $100,000/year as a software consultant for four years. Now I'm finishing my English degree and studying poetry. People do this sort of thing all the time and it usually comes when they're a little older and have a better idea of what matters to them in life and what gives them the energy to get up in the morning and face the day. The molecular biologist has some big bills, perhaps. Or maybe he's just a smart guy that put in a ton of work -- Ph.D.'s, after all, aren't earned in a few weekends of spare time study, at least not from a reputable school -- and then found that the reality of research is different from the intellectual stimulation of textbooks.
Do I like software? Yes, I do. I compete on TopCoder, read books about functional programming, and throw mud at SCO. But writing and literature is, simply speaking, closer to my heart. For another person it's training an ancient breed of dogs. And for yet another person it's going to Canada to commune with, well, Canadians I guess.
The fact is that, given basic education, intelligence and wherewithal, we live in a world where you don't *have* to settle for doin' what yer daddy done, or towing the line, or staying "safe" if you don't want to.
This molecular plumber guy is just searching for a reward, I guess. After a few years of the realities of a plumber, it's possible yet he may look fondly back at his days as a molecular biologist
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
First off a plumber makes more than someone with a phd?
Anyway, something similar to this happened to me, minus the 42k and phd. I recently swapped careers after over 8 years as an automotive tech. I decided I was tired of going home greasy, busting my knuckles, and working out in the cold. Now I'm in school part time, and working with the same company only in the IT department. The dirtiest I get at work now is from a rabid dust bunny inside of a case or two. Needless to say I am happy of the change. Once school is completed I'll make at least twice what I did working on cars. I would have been reluctant to change had I not been able to stay with the same company. I know of many people who have their degrees in Computer Science, and cannot get a job either from the market bieng saturated or a lack of hands on experience. I am lucky enough to have the best of both worlds, job security, working at my degree, and getting hands on experience.
As for the plumber with a phd, my father always said "It doesn't matter if you make minimum wage washing dishes, as long as your happy with what you do."
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
He has since come back to working in the business world, which is why he now works for my company. Why? Well, he discovered that as an "odd job" laborer:
You have to work HARD.
You make no money.
You have no benefits.
You still have to deal with pompous, overbearing individuals who think they know, when in fact, they do not.
You do not get vacations.
Now given, YMMV, but I have found that the key to job happiness is having a good balance of expectations versus fulfillment. 3 years ago, when my expecations of employment were "I want a pool table, I want to go drinking every night with my coworkers, I want to work 80-hour weeks and be an IPO millionaire," I would have been miserable at my current job. The place is kinda corporate, after all. We have cubes, and use buzzwords, and there are "are you giving good customer service?" banners hanging up.
But now, what I want in a job includes things like vacation time, a chance to play with some fun technologies, good money, and a job that I can come in, do, and get outta here as quickly as possible. So now my job is a lot more fulfilling, partially because I found a different job, and partially because I modified my expectations.
If you are really miserable at your job, by all means, go elsewhere. I certainly did. But be prepared to take a good look at yourself and consider that part of the problem may lie with you.
--- Where's my car, and why are these grass stains on my pants?
Invest what???
My unemployment checks or the money I get from the coke can recycling???
Code poet, espresso fiend, starter upper.
I've sold my small consulting company and took a year off to be with family, friends and to recharge the creative batteries that have been long negected.
I'm already running low on funds and I'm trying to find a job where I can be happy and useful without having to be on call 24/7 and running around putting out fires. But my decision was worth it.
If you're in IT, now is the time to move back to Mom's house for a while to re-think your situation, go back to college, get a better/other degree and get laid more often!
Catch up on all those comic books! 'Nuff said!
Most of my life I've gotten the advice to figure out what you love and find some fool to pay you for doing it. Now I'm not so sure. Go find a secure profession that will pay you well enough to live your life (hint: a life isn't what you do at work). Make sure there are enough opportunities that you can switch employers whenever you get sick of one. Then go do what you love. You're selling some of your life to your employer to finance the rest of your life.
The problem with the boom is that the textile workers got into IT where they dont belong. I know I should feel sorry for the dot bomb people that lost there jobs but looking back to many of them shouldent have been around a datacenter forget having root / administrator credentials yes they tried hard etc etc etc but a book does not make a good IT person just an ok one. People should have a spark and drive for there job if your not driven to do your job well well I dont feel sorry for you when you get laid off over the 19 year old kid that loves to code / engineer and does it well. Sure there are some things that are book learning but you can tell the difference between the 9-5 people and the ones that do cool things on weekends. Find a job you have passion for and never let it be extinguished otherwise work at dennies or become a corprate drone.
No sir I dont like it.
I'm definitely considering a move out of the IT industry. While I am extremely thankful I have been blessed with great business in the last few years, job satisfaction is at an all time low.
Frankly, I've come to realize that I work for the machine! I find them a nice 42U space for them to habitate in, give them power, air conditioning, a line out to talk with their friends. I then go on to teach them how to talk with other folks in interesting ways, so that they can stand on their own and make some money!!
It'd be nice to do something good for the planet. I'm returning back to the ideals of my youth - I want to help the planet, and not just one server at a time. Another monkey could do my work (maybe not quite as well, but it'd get done), I should be out helping people. Even if I climb the fabled ladders or just retire a rich consultant - would I really want to look back on my life in 40-50 years and say "Welp, I built some damn fine servers in my day, yessir."? No sir. What would really turn my crank? That's the one that's tough to figure out. Who else wants to save the planet?
If it's alright with you, I'd like to hate your job for $100K/year.
~m
"Yes, I have a Disaster Recovery Plan. It's called my Resume"
I had a job as senior project manager, my skills "helped" me to get into the business area as well as the technical, so at the end of the day I was doing the jobs of a sales engineer, manager of the IT crew and project manager. That was ok until my boss started to push to improve my sales!!!! c'mon...
Anyway... he went to southamerica to close a few deals and I was running the business here. We were about 10 people. The problem was when he starting to call the customers to force payments (they were late) and ruined all the negotiations I did. Projects started to collapse and 3 of the best employees left. I tried to, but my hands were tied with the responsibiliti. Finally the stress led me to the hospital and when the company refused to pay the bill and the extra expenses I decided to quit. Money was good, but considering the chores I was doing, I deserved the money of 3 or 4 management positions.
You and your health is the most important, also take time to live your life, don't live for work. Become necessary to your company, but don't solve others work. If you feel abused, talk, if nobody listens, then it's time to give the fsk salutation to your boss. Chances are they won't support you in easy times, lesser are while you're in troubles.
My 2cents.
I read most of the posts here and to summarize, we geeks are fed up to the top of our heads with the current state of affairs. Namely, corporations that don't give a damn about us. Unfortunately, most of us are indentured servants to our corporate masters at this time.
On the bright side, when the job market comes back these same corporate masters are going to wonder what hit them. Widespread walkouts, or extortion (large retention bonuses, immediate promotions/raises). If the idiot CxO's don't get a clue now, they are going to watch their companies implode as the brain drain hits them.
These sentiments mirror those of my colleagues. Our company had better get a clue too, or it won't be pretty.
"...I actually moonshined for a friend..."
You must mean MOONLIGHTED.
Moonlight : too work a second job after your primary job or a '80 detective show with Cybil Shepard (back when she was still a hottie) and Bruce Willis (back when he was still screwing Demi Moore)
Moonshine : an alcoholic beverage made with corn, wheat, or whatever one can get ahold of that will ferment usually causes blindness and draw the attention of revenuers -- the stuff granny made on the Beverly Hillbillies
I've recently taken up a second career in the hopes of having more time to myself, making my own schedule and making lots more money. I got my real estate license! Now I'm working for a broker part time while I sys admin full time. It's great when you sell a house (and it doesn't require much more than a few hours work) and bring home a commission check that's twice your monthy salary!
...after totally losing it with my last so-called university job, I figured that research was a dish best served without direct monetary flavour. The alternative is to 'research' as you are paid to research, which in the computer-science field is of course merely another way of becoming an underpaid code monkey for the greater glory of a usually-very-stupid boss... so now I'm taking the PhD on my own terms until I persuade somebody into funding it for what it is, no strings attached, and getting money as a freelance translator (certification pending).
I think, if you're ideologically handicapped (eg, you have the irrational and idealistic belief that science involves facts) then the best type of science is at least initially that which you aren't paid for. The alternative is either to be very lucky, get a great boss or go blindly through your life ignoring the fact that you don't believe in your own papers, and eventually receive a PhD that might just as well be printed on toilet paper for all you'll care...
I used to love science. I would read articles, study the techniques and figure out how to do experiments on my own. I once cloned a gene using jello, gummi worms, a rubbermaid box, some wire,some twine, a tylenol bottle,a pinch of lye, and a lantern battery.
Obviously science and biochemistry was something I would do as a hobby . . . out of school now, and having been working for 6 years in the field. . . there is no desire left to do science in the kitchen, it just feels like work without the pay.
Even at work it feels like work more than a hobby with pay.
--Tsiangkun
"The Plumbing Business Is Not As Glamorous As The Porn Industry Depicts"
NOT to belittle LEO's, but I've heard that some departments won't hire people whom they feel are too intelligent. They are afraid they will get bored too easily.
There was a case where a guy scored extremely high on one of those little tests, and was therefore not hired. Of course, once his lawyer was done, he probably didn't need to....
I had a sucky sig.
Mod down this rant if you want, but it is an objective opinion of the consensus of this thread.
Everyone here talks about how they can't leave IT, and "boo-hoo" that this corporation that cares little for you offshores your job.
The PhD in question realized that plumbing pays more (and to reply to another thread, a plumber can make much more than 100k USD if they want to).
Personally, I hate my IT job. I do network administration for a logistics company. We also have a help desk (which for some strange reason is my boss) and three programmers who program in something easier than VB (magic software out of israel if you are interested...shudder).
I loathe my IT job, loathe the fact that nobody understand what I do, loathe the fact that I am forgotten about, loathe the fact that I put in 80 hour weeks and get chastised for the raise I threaten to quit over if I didn't get it. I am going to quit. As someone else stated, money is the best form of flattery. Who will pay me better than me? Nobody. So I am starting my own buisness.
Yes it is a horrible plan (ebay selling combined with windshield repair) but I do have aspiritions (would like to start developing games for cell phones and pdas)
So I am leaving my position in about 3 months to start it. Will I make as much? No. I only make 40k now, but with benefits that is probably nearer to 50k a year ( no bonus, no matching 401k ). Do I have to potential to make more? Hell yes I do. I am greatly suprized that people haven't taken the ititiative to start up there own niche based software companies. I am about to, and plan on hiring part time java programmers from wherever they pop up, as so long as they can do the work.
Not everyone has the prudence to start there own buisness, not everyone can code 4000 (good) lines in a week, not everyone can program a pix without looking at it.
If you love coding, but hate your job, find a niche that nobody else has filled. Write damn good software, and actively work on getting it marketed to the people who will use it. Maybe a niche to you is an answering machine for your linux box that emails you the ogg version of the message. Maybe it is a good time management system. Or software for logistics, or dental offices, or time management. Is each one of these things something that will make you a millionare? Of course not. If you change certain aspects of it, and spin the marketing a certain way, and sell it correctly, you could easily be sucessful enough and make enough bread for your family.
I still come back here even though 95% of the posters on slashdot haven't a clue, and usually don't mod up the intellegent posts because they don't agree with them.
Blah Blah Blah.
"Oh, you hate your job?! There's a support group for that. It's called everyone,
they meet at the bar."
-- Drew Carry, the Drew Carry Show.
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
Longshot my ass!
I don't see it being such a longshot. A neighbor of mine and one other friend work as consultants for large very US based corporations that are are investigating offshore resources.
The American people profit by getting somewhat lesser product (except for terrible support) and a cheaper product. However, once the plant closes in the US, another chunk of people go on unemployment. Which causes a decline in US money circulating and therefor causes more loss by the American public.
Its a terrible downward cycle and it needs to stop. I don't give a shit about free enterprise, it would be better for the American people in whole to have jobs wholly based here in the US. If the price has to go up, so be it, people will pay more, and work more, and thus earn more, eventually paving the way for a market that is so over saturated and fucked by price, that it'll just fall.
A good fall would do us some good, bring the money grubber bastards of corporate America back to reality.
--end rant.
think before you write, it'll save me moderator points.
Self publishing for people with knowledge in a particular subject, science, programming, math.
:)
(shameless plug by me
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
When you work for yourself its a labor of love.
You dont do things that dont interest you.
I'd like to direct you to the little dot near the shift key on the right hand side of your keyboard. Next to it is a similar looking dot with a tail. Please use them.
Your comment was fine and all but I really have no grasp of what you were saying because its really hard to comprehend someone who doesnt use punctuation to seperate their thoughts into sentences imagine if everyone typed like this the world would go crazy
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Sure, I make pretty good scratch, but what fun is the money if you never get a chance to spend it?
I've heard this from a lot of people. And certainly there are scores of people who spend too much time at work and not enough with their families. But I always remember what happened to some guy who used to work here: he came down with Alzheimer's in his 40s. I work at a scientific/engineering kind of place and, needless to say, your mind is the most important tool you have. This poor guy got struck down with a terrible disease way before his time. He had to retire. He just couldn't do the work anymore. Here's a case where doing the right thing for your family would have been to save up a big chunk of dough to support them if you died or could no longer work. Of course, he didn't know he was going to get Alzheimer's -- and certainly not at such an early age -- so he can't be blamed if he didn't save up a shitload of money "just in case."
The point I'm trying to make is that these issues are tough. No one has the "right" answer. Maybe your family is better off if you take a pay cut and have more time for them. And maybe your family is better off if you work your ass off when you're young and save up a lot of money to support them in case something happens to you. No way to know for sure. It's questions and issues like this that make life so exciting and terrifying at the same time.
GMD
watch this
I did the same thing. I run a small brick & mortar business. Much more interesting than writing yet another 3-tier web app in a drab, lifeless cubicle. The upside is that not only is it more interesting, but my long term financial picture is excellent. Instead of taking home an admittedly fat paycheck, my net worth is skyrocketing because my business is. It would take a salary of about $1M to get me back in IT. Good riddens!!
My training is in Slavic Linguistics. After I got my doctorate, I accepted a job as data manager for a drug testing company. The owners have been great to me, but because I have no joy at work, I just gave my six months' notice. I'm seriously considering teaching yoga as my next career, although a return to teaching Russian would be good as well. I think we are created for wisdom and joy. If our jobs are not helping us grow in both, then we are doing ourselves and others a disservice, and it is time to move on.
It was the parent poster who set those conditions. If he can quit his $100,000/year he hates to take a $20,000k job he loves, how is that different financially from keeping the $100k job and saving 80%. You'd lose some in taxes, so you wouldn't be saving quite 80%, but the general idea is the same.
Jason
ProfQuotes
Amy
I hear SCO is still looking for a CFO... you can make over $100k/year for a couple years, spend about 5 years in jail, then pay yourself $20k a year out of what's left after you pay your lawyers...
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
I'd happily leave my job to become
..and none of that will come true. Find happiness in what you have, not what others have.
Trolling is a art,
-Greater happiness
-Reasonable salary compared to living situation
-More free time
-No more on-call rotation
-Simplification (fewer computers, fewer attachments, fewer obligations)
-Possibility of working outdoors
-Working for myself
If I had a second skillset, I'd probably be using it now instead of sitting at my desk.
I have a degree in engineering (and physics). I work in computers, specifically desktop/application support. It provides me with good challenging work without the brain numbing math. I get to play with hardware and software and other toys. In general, it's fun and easy compared to the jobs I went to school for. Even if the pay wasn't superior, I'd probably still stick with this carreer. In order to change careers, it would have to either pay much much more or soemthign I find equally fun. Things such as bad management or projects would only make me find different jobs, not different careers
I think I'll be happy doing whatever so long as it pays well and I can live comfortably.
I'm not sure you've thought about this long enough. You spend almost a third of your life at your job. You'd really be happy doing ANYTHING for that third? Since another third of your life is sleeping, you're saying that you'll willing do anything for the work-third so you can enjoy yourself during your non-work-non-sleep-third. I'm not sure that's a reasonable trade. Now factor in the fact that what you do for a career can influence how much fun you have in your non-work time. Suppose you've got a degrading job. How many friends will you have? How will society judge you? How will you feel about yourself when someone at a cocktail party asks what you do for a living and you tell them what you do?
What I'm trying to say is that I don't think your career and social life are really completely separate like you seem to be implying. There's definitely a link between the two. A poor social life can make for a poor working life. A poor career can make you unable to enjoy your social life.
GMD
watch this
Why anyone would want to be a Microbiologist?? I mean I have desire to be a plummer personally, but at least I would get tons of meaningless casual sex... That is unless porn has lied to me... :)
I won't kid you: It hasn't been a blissfest. And the work opportunities for someone with a BS in Comp Sci, a BFA in Digital Media, and an odd assortment of work experience are a lot more limited than I anticipated. But when I think about how I would've spent the last seven years of my life if I'd chosen the other path (i.e. wearing a tie in a cubicle ranch and still just wondering idly if could ever learn to paint), I feel a lot better about my choice.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I've found that coding at home and coding at work to be two very separate tasks.
At work, I have limitations (ie: clueless coworkers, embedded systems limitations, deadlines, etc) that cause me to resent what I do. Writing beautiful code that's equivilant to an optic surgery laser, only to have coworkers treat it like a sledge hammer... is very depressing.
At home, I'm willing to write beautiful code that knows no boundaries and can be as modular and extensable as I desire. It's a real joy to write code at home, much like a creative release from the mundane tasks of the day.
I don't hate coding, I hate having to write neuthered/nerfed code.
It's not easy to stop caring too much. You have to tell yourself that you are still a good person. You are not in a position to change all that is wrong in the world.
Test 1 2 3 4
I realized a few years ago that I like having all bills paid too, but that I care a lot more about travelling to new and beautiful places during the summer than I do about having cable TV during the winter. You choose your luxuries in life. My luxuries are less material and more quality-of-life things. I can pay off all my bills even living under the poverty line, and I'm much happier now than I was when I had more bills-- and a LOT more money.
I was a programmer for a while, most notably during the bubble. I was paid really well, enjoyed the work itself most of the time, and got great perks. I also worked in an office with no windows 40 to 50 hours a week, and it could be pretty frustrating at times (in a damn, this idiot will NEVER understand the point I'm trying to make! kind of way) So I decided to go back to school.
I'm working on a PhD in archaeology. The stipend I'm living off of is a quarter of what I was making at my old job (not considering things like inflation and the raises I would've gotten between then and now.) I can't afford cable or to go out for dinner all that much; I'm living below the poverty line. But I love my life! I travel every summer to exotic places, I love what I spend my time doing, I am intellectually challenged every minute of the day, set my own schedule again, and am excited about the fact that I have so much freedom to determine where I will be in the future. Which university or universties I'll end up teaching at, where I'll do my research, all of the places I'll be able to visit. All of the reading I'll do and all of the time I'll spend outdoors instead of in an office with no windows. It'd be great if at some point I make a lot of money again, and I'm sure I'll manage to do just fine (under the poverty line is for grad students; I don't plan to stay here forever.) But for me, it was no choice: job and LIFE satisfaction over any amount of money, any day.
Do something about world hunger. Click here
IANAP, but I have a freind who is a handyman. He does all sorts of jobs - carpentry, electrical, landscaping, but he won't touch plumbing because the insurance costs are astronomical. Apparently, anything with a blowtorch in tight flammable spaces where a fire may start unnoticed and eventually burn down the house... tends to have a high premium.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
I would never sacrifice my uptime stats to indulge in such impulsive behavior.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I quit a perfectly good job as a web developer in December 2002 to start a nonprofit organization. I wrote an article about the factors that went into my decision. You can read it here.
It starts like this:
Dude;
> not everyone can code 4000 (good) lines in a week
Especially not network administrators.
> Yes it is a horrible plan (ebay selling combined with windshield repair)
I'm sure you'll make good with all your ebay selling and windshield repair. Clearly both more lucrative then writing (good) software.
> and plan on hiring part time java programmers
Which part of your business are they going to help with? The windshield repair? or the ebay selling?
> I still come back here even though 95% of the posters on slashdot haven't a clue
I see you what you mean.
k
What you probably make: $40K-50K
What people will pay for consultants: $100-$200/hr
If the consultant is steady work, the obvious comes out. Less work, better pay. Calculate it for yourself, make sure you match health insurance and 401k offerings. You'll find that 15 hours a week at $100/hr is a good way to go, IF you can get steady work.
Plumbers have it made. Plumbing is slow, tedious, DEPENDABLE work. A simple job is a minimum of 2 hours, $100/hr, well, one decent job a week will pay the bills. Going out on your own makes far more, and if you can secure work, the rewards are endless. Not having steady work is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot. It's a risk, weigh the options for you take it.
I'll finish with a true story:
I make around $40K at my job. I have all the certifications (MCSE, CNA, CCNA) that I need. I perform the tasks of those certifications on a regular basis. My boss has decided that my $20/hr opinion isn't worth as much as a $150/hr consultant, with no credentials, who has never visited our site. I built it from scratch, I know it inside out. Obviously I'm more qualified, I needed to teach him a lesson.
So, I tricked him. I have a side business, and I dropped off a business card for a "local consulting firm". We conversed over e-mail, and set up a time. He agreed to pay $100 for the initial consultation. I went home for lunch, changed into khakis with a shirt and tie, and showed up as the consultant. His face was beet red when he found out it was me, but I'm $100 richer and my boss is more eager to listen to me.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Getting that behind-the-scenes look at the job I thought I wanted was SO valuable! Chefs work hard (12 hour days or more, 6 days a week) and don't get paid all that much (I guess there are exceptions) - it really gave me the chance to see how good I had it as a programmer and that's what I really loved to do - to solve puzzles and write the code to solve 'em. My urges to cook are satisfied by cooking at home on a hobbyist basis.
So that's what I would say ... do some research into what you're thinking of switching to on an extra-curricular basis. Don't leave your job until you're sure ... well, that is, if you have a job. There is some truth to the adage "the grass is greener on the other side of the pasture." You don't want to find out after switching sides that the side you were on was already pretty green.
I'd also recommend a good book: What Should I Do with My Life?: The True Story of People Who Answered the Ultimate Question, by Po Bronson ... we've talked about it before. I've read most (if not all -- I forget) of it. It doesn't answer your questions, but it does offer some insights into people who have done similar things.
I'm not sure what the secret to success is, but the secret to failure lies in trying to please everyone -Bill Cosby
I have been in the computer field since 1969. I have done just about every job there is to do in this field, from operation to network design, from coding RPG to designing document processing for state legislatures.
I had all this time to change careers but I was a whore to my profession ( I couldnt get away from the money).
Now, in my 50s I realize what I REALLY want to do with my life and it aint in IT!
Can I be retrained? Is there enough time? Will anyone hire a 60yearold novice in a new field?
Hint - if you hate your IT job and you are under 35, then bail now! Time will slowly catch up with you and you will be stuck in a lifeless job, in a lifeless company, doing lifeless work.
Get out now!!!!
I got into IT 20 years ago, back when a guy with some smarts and some good work habits could pick up K&R, learn it, and get a job. Having sampled something of the broader working work, I must say that I love IT. I'm with a small company where I get to code nearly all day long, there's minimal political bullshit, and the pay and bennies are excellent. Writing good code is so much more challenging and fun than cleaning toilets or digging graves, you have no idea!
In my best of all possible worlds, I would make my living as a musician. But that is not to be: lack of opportunity, and (to be truthful) lack of talent stand in the way. But for me, IT is a damn good second best. Take it from me, that greener grass you see out there probably is astroturf.
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I am on my second real career (nearly a dozen years in the first and 7 or so in this one). Prior to this I had several 'regular jobs' in retail. I've learned a lesson I recommend you all consider in evaluating these issues for yourself:
If you have a creative, meaningful, satisfying job you invest in, you will get *screwed over* by people who know your commitment to quality and mission will drive you to submit to abuse. You will be exploited. You will be consumed by bureaucracy. You will fall prey to career climbers who forgot the mission but still use it to justify their actions feathering their own beds. You'll be working 80 hours a week with a few other driven people while the people in charge go home every day at 4:55. Your dedication will be perceived as a threat and you will be marginalized. You'll watch the smart commited ones you are proud to work with give up and skate one by one as the going gets tougher and tougher. You will rearrange the deck chairs while the captain heads for the iceberg.
You have three choices:
- Compromise your ethics and get rich being part of the problem.
- Work for yourself.
- Work for the money, and not in quest of riches, just enough to get by and save methodically to retire and provide for your family. Get your humanity on the weekends.
The first requires an incredible amount of luck to work. More likely than not, you'll get cocky and overextend yourself. If it does work, you'll have no soul.
The second also requires an incredible amount of luck. If you pull it off, you'll be working your butt off but you will die proud.
The third is 'the easy way' and after two careers and 20+ years working it's the way I recommend. I wish I'd been smart enough not to fall for the romance of doing what I believe in.
Twice.
What a fool I was.
Having your imports exceed your export is not sustainable. Having too many displaced people makes society more expensive for the remainder who have jobs - you've either got to pay welfare or hire more cops to fight the crime that starving and homeless people must eventually turn to.
It seems to take longer today for people to migrate to new jobs than the job opportunities of a first-world take to change in nature. That's a problem, even though macroeconomics suggests that it will sort itself out in the long run.
"Do not drill any holes in your cat - it will not like it."
-- Nick Davies
I can think of a few reasons for entertaining a career change. The top of the list, IMHO, would be being involuntarily lesuired. Something I recently experienced.
I spent a lot of money getting a graduate degree in my field from a top school. No, to be honest, it was the top school for my niche industry. I finished my degree a few years ago and landed myself a sweet job doing what I schooled for and making a very decent living. I thought I was set. Perhaps I was too optimistic. Several months ago I found I was summoned into the conference room one Friday afternoon and informed that the company couldn't afford my position anymore and I was being let go.
Aside from the usual progression of emotions for such a situation, the last six months of my newfound "freedom" have been spent figuring out how to make every dollar stretch and how top find new employment. That new employment, I hoped, would be in my field and at a similar salary to that which I had. I've discovered that that is prolly not going to happen. So what now? COntemplation of a new completely different job, that's what.
While I still hope out hope for landing the position I'd prefer at this point (affording the opportunity to pay off my debt and send my wife to grad school so she can move into a new career path as orignially planned before my forced extended vacation without pay) I am considering a drastic change. Heck, maybe it'll even mean more in terms of salary.
So now that I've rambled and ranted about my situation--I thank you for the couch time--my point is that a good reason to consider a job change as suggested in the article is being forced to change your job because you've been downsized.
'nuff said
Ah, the famous 'dead money argument'
/ALL/ depends on circumstances. I know some very succesful people who are serious sharemarket investors and many of them rent, on the basis that they don't understand the housing market, so why risk their capital there?
Can you explain why paying a landlord for the use of his asset (a house) is evil and stupid, whereas paying a bank for the use of their asset (a lump of capital) is clever and mature?
It
So what's the lesson learned? When you're young, work the job you like. You have your entire life to work jobs you hate and once you get that house, new car, wife, and children it will be tougher to leave a bad job if it pays well. When you're young and basically all you have in your life it work, make that work as enjoyable as possible. Plan for the future, but don't let that possible future ruin your present.
"Oh dear, she's stuck in an infinite loop and he's an idiot" -Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama)
I was an accountant, mid-level management in a moderate size company ($50-60 million sales, several hundred employees). I didn't want to get to the end of my life and think "why the heck did I spend my whole life doing something that I don't enjoy".
I've always enjoyed technical things, but had a business degree. I went back to school for a while and was planning to get an EE or maybe MS in computer engineering. However, with a house and family that would be a very long hard road. Wound up getting a couple of certs, taking what I could find on a help desk.
Soon I got a job in a datacenter, tending backups, monitoring systems, etc. Gradually, I got to do more interesting stuff. After about a year and a half I got a better offer elsewhere. I actually left, but my previous employer countered with a better offer to be a Sys Admin/DBA on several large Unix boxes running Enterprise Apps.
I'm making almost what I made in accounting after 2-1/2 years in the field. Yes, I know that it's no longer the hot field. Sure, I wish it was--but I was in the Oil Industry when it went in the tank, so I already knew that industries have ups and downs.
I got in this because I love it--not every aspect of my job, but I love computers and technology. My house always has 4-5 computers in it, I run servers at home, play with programming, etc. I didn't get into this field because "it's a hot field, you'll make a lot", but rather because it was a field where they would pay me to do what I would do for free.
So, my vote is with the "find something you love to do" school.
First, talk to musicians and ask them if they'd do anything differently. I have, and I've heard members of big-city symphonies talk of how the amount of practice and effort needed erodes their ability to 'enjoy' their favorite music. They make good money, at least. Talking to bar bands and others, the lifestyle gets old and the tough choices never get easier (family vs. career, commercialism vs. artistic purity, etc). On the other hand, people who love music but have a day job doing something else seem to retain that deep love for it.
Second, there's the financial side. Money matters. If not to you, then to the people who'll be collecting your rent and selling you stuff.
Rather than dwelling on satisfaction only, find balance. You mentioned plumbing: If you're ok with the technical challenges and don't mind the dirt, plumbing is good work with steady demand and strong customer incentives to speak respectfully to you. You can work long hours and REALLY make bank (I supervised one union crew where the pipefitters were getting 5x their $40/hour pay by Sunday night), or just build a strong clientele and work 9-5 with a vicious additional fee to minimize off-hours calls. Likewise, there are profitable careers that are fairly painless, no matter what your talents or inclination. I'm lucky because most of the stuff I enjoy pays well. Had I not honed in on computer work, I could have stuck with engineering, or architecture. I'd even considered being a lawyer (but hated the idea of undergoing surgery to have my conscience removed, so no go there...). Still, the sheer joy I've felt during college philosophy lectures, or literature classes could have been a compelling thing if I ignored the whole MONEY thing. Instead, I just tell myself I might swerve more toward something loveable and low-paying once I get enough invested to guarantee a cushy retirement.
There are a zillion other ways that balancing money and satisfaction seems wisest: You can work your day job and subsidize artistic urges. My wife paid for her own bronze castings for her sculpture. Without our income level, that might be beyond her ability to spend. Strangely, being an executive AND an artist seems to give her double-plus charisma: she gets bonus points at work by people that want to pal up to an artist, and her artwork sells better because these successful executives buy & display pieces. Wierd, huh? As for me, my job's projects have peaks and lulls, and the lulls let me take several hours off midday to help at my kids' school, go fishing, or whatever. Good pay, an ok job, and flexibility are a great balance, in my book. Further, our jobs' higher pay lets us travel, invest more, and indulge on things we consider important.
Last of all, I watched my dad work for years in the public sector. Slaved away for so-so pay. Projects he spearheaded are named after people that donated volunteer effort or money to support these projects. None are named after him. All the work, none of the glory. It's a little thing, but it still matters. Had he picked a more lucrative career that he liked, then been a dedicated supporter of his favorite cause, he'd have gotten more credit.
So, don't choose between money and something you LOVE. It's not black and white. Go grey. If possible, pick a choice that's more lucrative, so long as you merely LIKE it. Nothing slaps the grin back on your face after a long week like a huge paycheck, or some gift to yourself like courtside Lakers tickets. And nothing saps the grin away faster than learning the low-pay job you hoped to love isn't what you expected.
Even in the US, PhD candidates may be living below the poverty line, but they're not poor -- they're still part of the elite. They have options. They have better chances at finding cheap places to rent in nice neighborhoods. They are good credit risks. And they may not see the money that is being spent on them by their Universities/governments, but it doesn't mean that money is not being spent. There is no such thing as free healthcare, free bus fare, and free travel to exotic places in the US. Everything has a price.
After working as a SysAdmin and then Software Engineer through the dot-com boom ... I got burned out, and was generally just not happy. It got to the point where I didn't even LIKE writing code.
:) I even enjoy wiriting code again, as a hobby.
... but in the last few years I figured out there's SO much more to life than that.
In Nov of '00 I woke up one morning and wrote my letter of resignation. I sold my house, moved to an area with a low cost of living, and now am a motorcycle mechanic.
I love my job, and actually like going to work in the morning. I also have time to actually enjoy life, instead of working all the time. Oh, and nobody pages you at 3am because they need an oil change
I won't get rich doing this, nor will I ever have stock options again
- Roach
. (Don't even bother, that was intentional to get you're hopes up.)
.
P.S. Hah! So was that. :-)
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I would check yourself comrade saying that everybody was entitled to a job was there story. I'm saying that people should have a calling for there work whatever it is. This holds especialy true to anything that can be considered artistic and great programming or engineering qualifies as such. It has nothing to do about being upper class etc (BTW I'm a child of a blue collar family) Nothing about IT should stop people from making a good living but dont expect me or anybody else to hire people that are not the best possible canidate comrade and that means people that love there work. I dont advocate people working on the weekends etc but at the same time continuing education is not work so dont require to be paid to learn new things in your field of work.
No sir I dont like it.