On Gay Characters In Videogames

Thanks to Armchair Arcade for its feature discussing the portrayal of gay characters in videogames past and present. The article starts by pointing out: "In Troika Games' computer role playing game The Temple of Elemental Evil (2003)... the player is asked to rescue, and given the option to marry, an openly gay character", and ends by arguing: "Gay avatars are an inevitable development in the evolution of the videogame that will take place with or without this article. If we already see such possibilities opening up in even mainstream titles like The Temple of Elemental Evil, I doubt it will be long before even the idea of a fantasy role-playing game featuring only one white male avatar will seem a strange, misguided aspect of our distant past."

Comments

Let's not forget...

[metamatic]

...the fabulous portrayal of gay people in Grand Theft Auto.

Re:Let's not forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, several of the characters wore Hawaiian shirts. There are only two types of people who wear Hawaiian shirts: gay people and big fat party animals. And they didn't look like big fat party animals to me...

Trans...

[elasticwings]

I for one believe there should be more crossdressing in video games. I still remember I think it was Space Quest 3 where you cross-dressed in the mall.

Re:Trans...

[paulcammish]

Oh god... and the 'Honey Bee Inn' sequence in Final Fantasy VII... oh god... im not going into that...

Re:Trans...

[I am Emmitt Smith]

Don't forget Flea from Crono trigger.

Re:Trans...

[kacp]

Let's not forget FFVII's Wall Market scene, a whole mini quest is devoted to your male character finding a dress, wig, etc, to dress up as.

Re:Trans...

[Ayaress]

I accidentally made a female elf character in an MMORPG. I was stuck with a clearly masculine name on a clearly feminine character for the longest damn time, so I just told people I was a crossdresser.

Re:Trans...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does the topic of 'gay' always involve talking about crossdressing? Any educated person would realize they have nothing to do with each other. If that were true, at least 5% of straight men would actually be gay, since that's how many have tried on womens panties.

Re:Trans...

[toothfish]

Although it was treated like comic relief, there was a cross-dressing scene in FF7... That was a pretty big game, as far as I recall.

Same-Sex marriage allowed in The Sims 2

[TheRedHorse]

The issue of gays in videogames will get a lot more mainstream soon, one example is that the website for "The Sims 2" says that members of the same gender will be able to marry each other.

http://thesims2.ea.com/about_faq.php

Re:Same-Sex marriage allowed in The Sims 2

[elasticwings]

But only in Massachusetts right?

Re:Same-Sex marriage allowed in The Sims 2

[Squozen]

Same-sex relationships existed in the first Sims game, though I can't recall what the situation was regarding marriage. You could certainly fall in love and share a bed with members of either sex, the engine didn't care.

Re:Same-Sex marriage allowed in The Sims 2

[Rallion]

The only differences were that there was no 'marry,' but they had the equivalent 'move in.' Also, I never saw them engage in one of the really passionate kisses, but I never played the game too much. My girlfriend would know...

I think the baby situation worked the same way, but I'm not sure. Not that that was very realistic anyway. I wish real life was like that. You have a relationship with a person, have sex all the time, and when somebody calls you on the phone and asks if you'd like to have a baby, you can just say no and hang up!

Re:Same-Sex marriage allowed in The Sims 2

[goatan]

"The Sims 2" says that members of the same gender will be able to marry each other.

I can't wait for the pureitan side of america to find that out or govener scwarzenegger

Re:Same-Sex marriage allowed in The Sims 2

[prala]

God, if it worked like that, there'd be a lot happier people out there. Then again, I think that same-sex relationships in games like TOEE and other RPG games differ from "real life" simulation games, in that they have to be written into the story. In that sense, relationships (and/or flirting) overall differs in RPGS - as I always play as a female, the only time I ever got hit on was in Morrowind. But my boyfriend, who always plays as male, got hit on and made dates with tons of AI "girls' in both Morrowind and NWN. Go fig.

Re:Same-Sex marriage allowed in The Sims 2

[zelphior]

I think that there is also some gender bending going on in many games already in existence. For example, as a male I generally use a female avatar in games like UT2K3. The female characters are usually smaller and more agile, plus it's a bit more humiliating for many people to be "beaten by a girl". I don't play MMORPG's, but I'm sure there's plenty of straight guys who play as females, and would then be more attracted to the other female characters played by females. I'm sure there's also females who use a male as their in-game avatar. This brings up the interesting situation where you have people engaging in online homosexuality without even realizing it.

700 hours of gameplay

[AlternateSyndicate]

In Troika Games' computer role playing game The Temple of Elemental Evil (2003)... the player is asked to rescue, and given the option to marry, an openly gay character.

Do they have to wander around the United States until they find a city offering marriage licenses? That sounds like a pretty extensive side-quest.

Re:700 hours of gameplay

[theghost]

I only wish we could wipe out bigotry so easily.

Re:700 hours of gameplay

[sydb]

Homosexuality may well be genetic. However, the word 'defect' implies a list of necessary attributes to be an acceptable human. What makes you think heterosexuality is a requirement for being an acceptable human?

Did you ever consider the possibility that homosexuality benefits society?

Even from a narrow minded selfish-gene perspective, homosexuality may bring things to humanity as a species that promotes the genes of the species. Perhaps we need childless people to devote their lives to works other than raising their children.

And escaping from that narrow minded perspective, perhaps homosexuality benefits us in other ways. Don't you think the arts are richer given the unique perspectives and styles homosexual people often bring?

I've given you the benefit of the doubt by presenting some reasoned counterpoints to your original post. If you've got this far and still maintain your original view, here's my verdict: bigotted moron.

Re:700 hours of gameplay

[Anonymous Coward]

Homosexuality may well be genetic.

Of course it may. There are many genetic defects.

I am working on a couple of assumptions here, so the whole thing falls apart if they are incorrect.

1. When people are first attracted to each other, chemicals in the brain are released that make them want to be together long enough to develop real emotional ties.

2. This occurs to promote procreation of the species.

If this is correct, then it can be argued that homosexuality is a defect. Attraction to someone of the same sex does not encourage procreation. Without procreation the species dies.

Your "reasoned counterpoints" aren't.

Even from a narrow minded selfish-gene perspective, homosexuality may bring things to humanity as a species that promotes the genes of the species.Perhaps we need childless people to devote their lives to works other than raising their children.

A childless person doesn't pass along genes, therefore does not benefit the species. Many people manage to do great things and raise children.

And escaping from that narrow minded perspective, perhaps homosexuality benefits us in other ways. Don't you think the arts are richer given the unique perspectives and styles homosexual people often bring?

This really has nothing to do with anything. People with a wide range of defects have contributed to many areas of society.

Just because his opinion doesn't fit into your narrow, politically correct world, doesn't mean he is a bigotted moron.

Re:700 hours of gameplay

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes you think heterosexuality is a requirement for being an acceptable human?

We will find out how many people think it's all just fine when it is possible to detect it in unborn children.

How many people would willingly have a homosexual child? It's a waste of time, from an evolutionary point of view. That will be particularly ironic since you probably also support a woman's right to choose. I'm going to enjoy seeing the histrionics your kind go through to try to add, "except if the child is homosexual" onto your pro-choice dogma.

Even from a narrow minded selfish-gene perspective

I see, science is "narrow minded" now. If I try hard enough, I can just wish genetics away ... did you fail high-school biology classes or something?

homosexuality may bring things to humanity as a species that promotes the genes of the species. Perhaps we need childless people to devote their lives to works other than raising their children

Are there any examples of this right now? No, because gays are intrinsically self-centered.

Don't you think the arts are richer given the unique perspectives and styles homosexual people often bring?

Can you explain clearly how sodomy gives you a unique perspective and style with regards to the arts?

Re:700 hours of gameplay

[danila]

A childless person doesn't pass along genes, therefore does not benefit the species.
Wrong in several ways.
- Evolution is not done to benefit the species or individuals, it is done to benefit the genes (i.e. increase their chances for spreading)
- Things other than passing along genes can benefit the species. See ants and bees, for example. Gays might be a human equivalent of a worker bee. :)
- To spread your genes you don't have to have kids. Your sister has 50% of your genes, as much as your child will have. Thus caring about your siblings is almost just as good a strategy as having kids.

I suggest you read "The Selfish Gene" by Dawkings, an interesting read.

P.S. The whole gayness question is irrelevant. Chances are we will all stop procreating (due to becoming immortal) in a few decades anyway.

FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Tiamat]

Given the option to marry?

I never thought I'd see the day that first person shooters would be more tolerant of social differences the the general U.S. population.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Original AIDS Monkey]

What are you talking about? My neighborhood still does not tolerate head shots even though I've been trying to convince law enforcement that it's been standard in FPS games for years!

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[sfjoe]

Will there be a constitutional amendment to ban gay videogames?

Won't somebody please think of the children?

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[moronga]

I never thought I'd see the day that first person shooters would be more tolerant of social differences the the general U.S. population.

I don't know if you were making a joke here, but I'm not sure why you'd be surprised by this. Videogames are created and played by (generally) younger people, who are going to be more progressively minded than the general population.

Also, videogames are often the place where people get to do things they'd normally wouldn't do in real life.

And the game in question is an RPG, not an FPS. :)

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Tiamat]

I don't know if you were making a joke here, but I'm not sure why you'd be surprised by this. Videogames are created and played by (generally) younger people, who are going to be more progressively minded than the general population.

Well, I'm not so sure. Everquest aside, the vast majority of the players are young men who, apparently, feel very insecure about their sexuality. I realize this isn't an FPS, and yes, I was using this mis-characterization to joke about games in general, but honestly, I really like multiplayer online gaming, and I can't tell you how many times I've seen pimpled boys message to each other "I reamed your gay ass with that", or "take that you fag", etc.... And, don't bother to recite the eminem argument about fag not refering to gay people...

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Imperator]

Why the hell not? Look at who opposes gay marriage the most: the old and the Christian. These are not people who play lots of FPSs.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[moronga]

Well, I'm not so sure. Everquest aside, the vast majority of the players are young men who, apparently, feel very insecure about their sexuality.

Yeah, that's true. I was too general in my original statement. I suspect that RPG players might be a little more tolerant. Most of my online gaming experience has been with MMORPGs, and while you do see overuse of "fag," "gay," etc, you are talking about a genre where the vast majority of female characters are played by males.

And there is a lot of flirting that goes on between male and female characters, though most of the players are (presumably straight) males.

But yeah, I've heard stories about the chat that goes on during FPSes. Sounds horrible.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to be equating the non-acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle with insecurities about sexuality. I am rather offended by this. You go on to cite an example that doesn't have anything to do with this issue. Some junior high school kid using abusive language has nothing to do with the movement towards the government embracing homosexual relationships are completely equal as heterosexual relationships.

Your pop-psychology is obviously of limited depth. For instance, you equate crude behavior with skin disorders - as if those with acne have somehow brought it on themselves. Tell me, are you insecure about your own skin condition? Let's discuss.

Guess what - I'm smarter than you.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[op51n]

I thought, as well, that I recalled Troika being non US company. I may be wrong however.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[NanoGator]

"I never thought I'd see the day that first person shooters would be more tolerant of social differences the the general U.S. population."

Is tolerance really that big of problem these days? It's not so easy to generalize about 300 million people, is it? Not sure where you're from, but where I'm at now (both the real world and on the net) being gay or anything else isn't a big screaming deal. Heck,a close friend of mine underwent a gender transformation. Everybody around was quite supportive, even where she works.

Yes, there are people in the United States that aren't happy about the specifics of where some are born, but you can still be just about anything here and hold your head up high. I'm happy with this country's progress over the last 100 years, not disappointed.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[scabb]

"Videogames are created and played by (generally) younger people, who are going to be more progressively minded than the general population."

Actually, the younger you are, the more you view the world as a bunch of stereotypes. It's much easier to understand that all Asian people drive slowly and all British people have bad teeth than it is to recognise that everyone is an individual blah etc.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[zonker]

a fun game of old, rex nebular and the cosmic genderbender, had a part towards the end of the game where you had to transform into a woman to get past a genderscanner or somesuch to beat the game. twas an odd game, but lots of fun...

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[0x0d0a]

I've heard that the British dental health system is exceptionally poor, which could be correlated with "British people have bad teeth".

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Echnin]

I'd say that is because of a small child's inability to create abstract and individual thoughts, and the way she is easily influenced by others. Once she attains the ability to think individually, she'll be able to see fallacies in overgeneralizing and stereotyping. Unfortunately, some people never seem to do so. Also, the older you get, the more stubborn you are about the opinions you hold, so old people who stereotype are hard to change.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[aztektum]

Somehow I doubt the general population would be tolerant of a buncha crazed geeks running around blowing shit up all day.

So yeah, I'd say FPS games are more tolerant than the general US Population.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Rallion]

Of course, many of those who see the fallacies might still have trouble changing language patterns, at least for a while.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[syrinx]

You do know that more females play Everquest than males, right?

Granted, the female characters are probably males, but a lot of the male characters are probably females, so it all works out.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Dachannien]

I never thought I'd see the day that first person shooters would be more tolerant of social differences the the general U.S. population.

Well, a rocket launcher will gib you just the same no matter whether you're gay or straight.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure the family of Matthew Shepherd may disagree.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[NanoGator]

Oh what a devastating rebuttal, I concede.

Re:FPS more tolerant than the nation?

[sfjoe]

In general, people who are insecure with their sexuality are the ones who are most extreme in their homophohobia. I can't see how this is offensive.

Details

[Anonymous Coward]

Space Quest IV, Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers. In the Galaxy Galleria. I don't blame you for getting it wrong though... Roger had travelled forward in time to Space Quest X, the Latex Babes of Eros. With all the hopping about in that game...

Total sequel confusion.

Re:Details

[elasticwings]

Ah Dammit, you're right. I remember now. Frick, ah well, the best was the tapeworm ride in Space Quest 6 though.

Re:Details

[zonker]

too bad the assmaggots of the gaming industry don't seem to want to fund any adventure games like that anymore...

nope, just 3d shooters and gta rehashes (which is about the same as a 3d shooter only now you can drive around and shoot, innovation!)

le sigh...

Birdo in SMB2

[HomerJ]

Let's not forget the original gay character....from Nintendo no less...Birdo in Super Mario Bros 2. Yes, that pink thing that shot eggs and wore a bow...was a dude.

Re:Birdo in SMB2

[NonSequor]

I remember the book saying that he wore a bow because he wanted to be a woman. I think he's been retconned into a she now though. I can't believe I actually used the word retcon. I feel so dirty.

Re:Birdo in SMB2

[Anonymous Coward]

birdo was transgendered, not gay. thats not the same thing. gay means one is attracted to people of the same sex, transgendered means one identifies as someone of the opposite gender.

Re:Birdo in SMB2

[MWoody]

Actually, as much as I love the little guy - er, girl - er, bird - the whole cross-dressing thing was merely a product of a bored localization staff. The original, Japanese manual for the game (which was Dokidoki Panic instead of SMB2 over there) had no such oddity; as such, the later "sex change" for poor Birdo was not a reneging so much as a return to the actual character.

Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

Gamers are some of the most homophobic people out there. Using "gay" to mean "stupid" or "cheap" is clear homophobia, I don't care what kind of way people try to construe it.

"That's so GAY!" is heard almost every round of Counterstrike. "God, why does that fag have to keep cheating?" If you're a real gamer, you know what I'm talking about.

The worst part is that most of them think it's okay, because either a) They don't *really* mean Gay people, it's just a word, or b) they think gay people deserve it.

Its really a problem that needs to go away. It makes online gaming less fun, and it makes otherwise intelligent people act like assholes.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[elasticwings]

"That's so GAY!" is heard almost every round of Counterstrike. "God, why does that fag have to keep cheating?" If you're a real gamer, you know what I'm talking about. Maybe we're just saying... "That's so HAPPY!" and "God, why does that cigarette have to keep cheating?"

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be too obnoxious, but some game's communities are a bit more respectful. Try Americas Army, I rarely see gay, fag on the chat. They usually call you a hacking a**hole, who has no friends, who like to f*** his mother.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying there's something wrong with stupid or cheap people?

Re:Gamers are Awful

[ScarletEmerald]

If they "don't really mean gay people" then it's certainly not "clear homophobia". The words gay and fag have, like it or not, become generic insults that really have nothing to do with sexual orientation.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Imperator]

I know people who do this in real life, and they're not all homophobic. They just don't think about it. I'm pretty sure that if there were a gay person in the room, they wouldn't do it, because then they'd suddenly realize that it's insulting. But when among straight males, they figure "no one's going to get offended". I'm not trying to apologize for them, and if I were gay I'd be pretty pissed about it, but don't assume they're all homophobic.

That said, some of the people who talk like that undoubtedly are homophobic.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Tiamat]

These words have a negative meaning because, and only because of their connection to gay people, and that makes them homophobic.

For all those people who believe that words like "nigger" and "fag" aren't related to their original meaning, I invite you to come to my neighborhood and start calling my neighbors "niggers". I wager you won't walk out intact.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[trentfoley]

Mod this guy up.

More and more, the word "homophobe" gets tossed around as an insult almost as much as "homosexual" does. Calling something "gay" in gaming chat is like when your friend steals a french fry off of your plate, and you slap him upside the head and call him, "Bitch!"

I don't know if homophobia and homosexuality are both diseases or both hereditary or what the combination is, but they need to be healed.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

Its really a problem that needs to go away.

What, you mean free speech? Lighten up, enjoy the game, and don't worry about whether the other players are sufficiently multicultural.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Fizzl]

Or perhaps they just think everything is jolly?

Perhaps the misguided opossums know as gamers haven't even heard gay could mean anything else then merry/jolly?

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Pluvius]

These words have a negative meaning because, and only because of their connection to gay people

Do you realize that "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks, or that "gay" used to be a synonym of "happy"?

Language changes all the time. Just because something became an insult because of homophobia doesn't mean that it will always be an insult because of homophobia. Even now, a significant number of people use the word as an insult just because it's accepted as an insult; sexual orientation doesn't enter into it. After all, how does it make sense to call, for instance, Star Wars Galaxies gay in the homophobic sense when SWG doesn't even have a sexuality?

For all those people who believe that words like "nigger" and "fag" aren't related to their original meaning, I invite you to come to my neighborhood and start calling my neighbors "niggers". I wager you won't walk out intact.

Because, as we all know, emotion not only overrides logic, it disproves it.

Rob

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Rallion]

I'll go one step further -- I know gay people who do it. It really is just common slang now. Gay means either homosexual or stupid. It can mean both, but doesn't always.

That said, I do try not to use it that way myself, but I'm exposed to it constantly, and ever so rarely it slips out.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[egomaniac]

These words have a negative meaning because, and only because of their connection to gay people, and that makes them homophobic.

And the word "sucks", as in "that sucks", was originaly a reference to performing a blow job. So? Does that mean that everyone who says "that sucks" is thinking about a blow job when they say it?

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Lemmy Caution]

I've actually gamed with gay gamers. ("Gaymers?" Why, as a matter of fact, yes.) And some of them have used the gamer "gay", with a certain irony, but otherwise the same way that gamers have.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the use of the word "gay" to mean "dumb" or such, but in fact, some of the people who have used it as such - even cluelessly, without irony - are still tolerant, gay-friendly people who support things like gay marriage and the like. They're just a bit young and clueless about taste.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

No way is calling someone "gay" homophobic. It *is* just a word, and over time it's come to have connotations with being immasculine, or acting stupid. That's like saying that anyone who uses the word "nigger" is a racist - in that case, many hip-hoppers are racist.

You sound like a gay who is lamenting the erosion of the word's contemporary meaning (that is, "homosexual"), just like those old codgers who lamented the erosion of the word's old meaning (that is, "happy"). It's English, the damn language changes all the time.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[33degrees]

This is the first thing I thought of when I read the headline, and for me, it's really the worse part about online gaming. I really don't care about being politcally correct, yet I can't help but cringe everytime I see/hear these kinds of homophobic insults. I've often thought that, if I had my own counterstrike server, I would definitely have the system censor the words and kick players for using them too much.

As you say, many people think it's ok because they don't really mean homosexual. But considering the original meaning of the word 'gay', it's clear that the word got it's current negative connotation because of homophobia, and the fact that it has become so prevalent as an insult is a clear indication of how deeply homophobia is ingrained in our society.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a matter of free speech, idiot. Of course they have the right to say what they want; nobody's saying otherwise. The issue is that homophobia has become so commonplace nowadays that it's pretty much accepted without a second thought, and in a lot of ways we'd be better off if that weren't the case.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[nekoes]

I'm going to have to agree on this one, that is:

Do you realize that "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks, or that "gay" used to be a synonym of "happy"?

Language changes all the time. Just because something became an insult because of homophobia doesn't mean that it will always be an insult because of homophobia. Even now, a significant number of people use the word as an insult just because it's accepted as an insult; sexual orientation doesn't enter into it. After all, how does it make sense to call, for instance, Star Wars Galaxies gay in the homophobic sense when SWG doesn't even have a sexuality?

Now I do know a lot of "gay" and "bi" people who would actually be offended if they were around people who used gay as a pejoritive, then again I know twice as many "gay" people who no longer feels that gay really means what it used to. It no longer holds offensive meaning for them. Which makes sense, technically gay doesn't even have any sort of connection to what we'd now call Homosexuals, besides the meaning it shares with happy, which I'd be more offended by. Of course these are the same friends that I game with occasionally, and I'd have to say that may have something to do with it.

Sure these words may have become pejoratives because of their connection to gay people, but they're now losing that connection it seems. Same deal with nigger, sure you still have the rednecks who use it offensively, and the black people who consequently get mad. But that's to be expected. I've heard black people call eachother nigger, white people call eachother nigger, white people call black people nigger, and asians that say it and everyone laughs. Racism, at least in my area, is becoming quite the joke.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[JimPooley]

Do you realize that "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks
And of course there are Mr. Brain's Faggots.
Don't forget to check out the Faggot Family link...!

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Phantasiere]

Does that mean that everyone who says "that sucks" is thinking about a blow job when they say it?

Considering that it is mostly teenage boys who say "that sucks", probably.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[TwistedSquare]

Indeed, the fact that it has two meanings is the key here. For example, if I said someone was very straight, I would be meaning that he does everything by the book, and is possibly a bit uptight. Doesn't mean I'm insulting heterosexual people though.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

But considering the original meaning of the word 'gay', it's clear that the word got it's current negative connotation

Tell us, which original meaning are you alluding to, happy? Because if you are, then I don't quite understand how you move from happy to stupid. Maybe I'm just a polak, but I don't see any lines connecting them.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

They usually call you a hacking a**hole, who has no friends, who like to f*** his mother.

Please refrain from using such language on Slashdot, children might be reading.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Echnin]

Similar to how "mongoloid" means both Asian (in old, outdated racial theories) and retard?

Re:Gamers are Awful

[(trb001)]

It's not insulting, anymore than calling someone a cunt or a dick is degrading to someone of the applicable sex. It's how the English language has evolved. There's something to mock about everybody (nerd, geek, fatso), gays really need to get over themselves and realize that there has been bashing of a non-gay type for way, way longer.

--trb

Re:Gamers are Awful

[moonbender]

Gamers are some of the most homophobic people out there. Using "gay" to mean "stupid" or "cheap" is clear homophobia, I don't care what kind of way people try to construe it.

You're wrong. I've met many people (IRL and online) who use the word and who are not homophobic. But since you don't care for what other people say, there's no point in talking to you, is there.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[SuiteSisterMary]

Hell, in England, a fag refers to a cigarette.

There's a joke about this in Good Omens, when the brit has the opportunity (vastly simplifying here) to ask an American soldier for a fag.

"What do you do with fags?" inquires the soldier. "Why, we burn them." "RIGHT ON!" says the soldier; he'd always heard these Brits were rather soft.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[scumdamn]

Actually, the term shouldn't have a bad meaning to gay people as it's only an insult to breeders. If someone calls me gay, I don't like it because I'm not. And I don't get naked with other men when it's Happy Time. But a gay person does get naked with other people of the same sex during Happy Time and that's not an insult to them. It's only an insult because you're being accused of something that you're not.

If you mistake an Army guy a Navy guy he might be insulted. Because he's not a Navy guy. He doesn't get naked with other people of the same sex during Happy Time so that's offensive to him (ok, just kidding). But seriously, if I were a gay guy and someone told me that something I did was "so gay" I'd tell them that I did it on purpose because I'm gay through and through so all the things I do are "so gay".

Re:Gamers are Awful

[theghost]

Regardless of the original meaning, in common parlance, gay means homosexual, and a faggot is a gay man.

To associate those words with negative qualities is inherently homophobic. Just becasue it has been applied to things that have no defined sexuality does not mean that it's suddenly a neutral term.

Bigotry and hate are learned in lots of ways. If kids learn that gay means bad that prejudices them against anyone who is described as gay whether or not they have a "moral" reason behind it.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Kirby]

One, I think you're right, that the people who use gay slurs as insults are often not doing so in a homophobic manner. (I'd rather there was another term, since it's more akin to racism and anti-semitism than a phobia, but I'm not going to succeed in language shift in one Slashdot post.)

But, here's a direct, real world analogy. A few years back, a cousin of mine was playing some version of Madden, and finding it the case that whenever he scored, the AI would immediately make a huge play and re-tie it. In frustration, he exclaimed, "This game is so Jewish!"

Now, I don't think he's particularly anti-semetic. I doubt he knows any Jewish people - there aren't a lot in rural southern Oregon. He's using it to mean a combination of cheap, and cheating.

I don't see how you can't equate the offensiveness level of this to the offensiveness of using 'gay' or 'fag' in a derogatory manner.

Ultimately, say what you want to say, but it's your own damn fault if people conclude that you're a racist, a homophobe, an anti-semitist, or just an asshole based on what you say. There are plenty of offensive taunts a clever person can come up with, without bashing decent, innocent folk, and if someone can't be bothered to do that, that's someone that quickly goes on my ignore lists.

But if you want people to conclude that you're an asswipe, please, keep using 'gay' to mean 'bad'.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Jamie Lokier]

I know people who do this in real life, and they're not all homophobic.

I agree. These days in the places I travel, "gay" has a much more fun, cheery flair to it, even when used to diss something, than I recall from school (13 years ago, Wales). Back then, people said "gay" as an insult and they meant as in queer, as in homosexual etc. All homosexual-related terms were universally used as insults. Bisexual was strangely a word nobody used for anything, and transgender was unheard of.

I'm pretty sure that if there were a gay person in the room, they wouldn't do it, because then they'd suddenly realize that it's insulting. But when among straight males, they figure "no one's going to get offended".

That's just the trouble. They do it when they don't realise 5% of the room (or whatever it is) are, in fact, gay or bisexual, because most non-straights are very quiet about it, because it isn't universally accepted as ok, so they end up insulting people unintentionally.

Imagine the guy at work whose parents have disowned him for being gay, who feels that life is harder than it should be because those who should care for him reject him, that it's better not to tell people at work, that he thanks god each day that the suicidal thoughts he had as a teenager didn't win, and he hasn't said anything to the folks in the room. Do those unintentional insults create a welcoming environment? Does it create an environment where he's likely to talk about it? Would those people even say the things they do, if they thought for a moment about how much they don't know about the people around, or even think they do know, because the people play along uncomfortably?

If people used "that's so female" to diss products and people regularly, would that be ok? Ignore the feminist backlash -- would it be ok in terms of its effect on how people treat one another away from the spaces where they say that? I don't think so.

Homosexuality is still far from general acceptance, yet it is good, because it does no harm and makes people happy. Homophobia still exists, and causes very much harm. That's why we still have to make a special effort to accept homosexuality, and reject homophobia, with our words, actions, and laws.

-- Jamie

Re:Gamers are Awful

[CTachyon]

WRT use of "gay" as an insult...

I'd have to stick up for them against calling them "homophobic", because homophobia really implies an intent to harm. Most of them are just mimicking their peers, and while the practice was certainly started by actual homophobes, they themselves aren't guilty of it.

HOWEVER

Just because they're wallowing in ignorance doesn't mean that it's not (a) insulting, and (b) fostering an anti-gay atmosphere. If someone points it out to them, they should make an attempt to stop (with allowances for habit). If they refuse, then they're being outright assholes. I mean, really, it's depressing enough reading the news without being reminded that a statistically significant portion of the population thinks us gay people are sub-human. Every time I hear someone use "gay" as an insult, and they don't know that I am, I have to mentally stop what I'm doing and figure out if that person was merely "joking" or if they fall into the category of people that would ostracise me, foam at the mouth and rant, (attempt to) beat me up, or worse if they found out. It gets fucking tiring after a while.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[CTachyon]

There's a very big flaw in your example. The two meanings of "straight" are both... "positive" is the wrong word, how about "non-insulting". However, the new bad!gay meaning was created *specifically* to reinforce the idea that homosexual!gay was also wrong. Every time someone uses it that way, it strengthens the idea that the two are related -- it's basically the opposite of the "reclaiming" process that has (finally) made "queer" and "dyke" acceptable under certain circumstances, which was accomplished by linking the words with new, positive meanings.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[sydb]

What is a retard? I would guess it's an American term for a stupid person.

I'm in the UK; we don't say "retard", we say idiot, moron, fuckwit, imbecile, etc.

Anyway, the word "mongoloid" does indeed refer to racial characteristics of people from the far East - especially Mongolia.

The word "Mongol" means someone from Mongolia. Additionally, it has a politically incorrect meaning - someone with Down Syndrome. The cause of Down Syndrome is genetic. The syndrome's obvious manifestations are low intelligence and a distinctive appearance - similar in some ways to the appearance of real Mongols. Hence the link.

The link between the word gay and it's "bad" associations is completely disimilar to the link between the word "mongol" and it's "bad" associations. One is based on appearance. The other is based on prejudice.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[sydb]

If people used "that's so female" to diss products and people regularly, would that be ok? Ignore the feminist backlash -- would it be ok in terms of its effect on how people treat one another away from the spaces where they say that? I don't think so.

While it's less and less common, its not unkonwn around me for a man to be accused of womanly behaviour as an insult indicating cowardice or technical incompetence. But indeed, jovial accusations of homosexuality for identical reasons are more common; for instance, prior to implementing configuration changes in production without following the appropriate change management procedures: "What are ye, a poof?". Actually, sometimes it can be funny. No, I'm not a poof, but I have been called one and I know a few.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[33degrees]

The point I was trying to make is that, unlike the word 'nigger', the word gay isn't inherently insulting, and is a perfectly acceptable word to use to refer to homosexuality; It's only insulting when using the logic gay = homosexual and homosexual = bad therefore gay = bad. Which is why, IMO, any use of the word gay as an insult is inherently homophobic, no matter how unconscious that association may be.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Pluvius]

To associate those words with negative qualities is inherently homophobic.

So... insulting someone by calling that person a bitch would be inherently hateful towards female dogs? Or calling a person a cracker would be hateful towards saltines? Or how about "redneck," which used to be a perfectly respectable reference to sunburnt farmers?

I refer you back to the part of my post where I said that language changes.

Just becasue it has been applied to things that have no defined sexuality does not mean that it's suddenly a neutral term.

But the fact that more and more people are using the words without reference to actual sexuality does mean that it's becoming a neutral term. Just like how "nigger" is becoming a neutral term (though people try to be deceptive by spelling it "nigga").

Rob

Re:Gamers are Awful

[bitrott]

How many racist words do you know that have become less racially charged over time? I'm curious, because "nigger" and "faggot" sure havn't. De-fanging these words as a "back-lash" to overzealous political correctness is intellectual dishonesty.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Pluvius]

There's also the Clerks cartoon:

British Guy: Pack of fags?
Randall: You're a fag.
British Guy: It's a cigarette, mate.
Randall: I'm not your mate, fag!

Rob

Re:Gamers are Awful

[TwistedSquare]

Hmmm we must be in separate countries, queer and dyke are still both fairly offensive to my mind (Im in the UK btw). Saying "queer" is worse than "gay" here. I think that the one meaning of gay does not have to relate to the other, regardless of where they came from, and see them as homonyms.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[TwistedSquare]

Lol I'm in the UK, and have heard of retard, and would use it more frequently than imbecile or moron. I guess we're quite a varied country though!

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Pluvius]

How many racist words do you know that have become less racially charged over time?

Honky? Cracker?

Oh, wait, those were never racially charged in the first place, because most white people don't explode when confronted with racial slurs. I guess they realize that the intentions are important, not the words used to express them.

Rob (Words, in and of themselves, don't have any fangs)

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Caktus]

I also know bisexual people that do that, and homosexual people that laugth at the "jokes". But they also pretend that they are not gay, talk about their "girlfriends", and so on.
I call them hypocrites. Being myself a gay man, they make me sick. I think that tons of gay bashing come from gay people who are ashamed of themselves. That's tragic. The world hasn't changed that much as people want you to believe.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[sydb]

True; however I don't think "retard" is commonly used to mean someone with Down Syndrome. It's a bit like calling a spas^H^H^H^H I mean someone afflicted by cerebral palsy "a spastic". Or someone with African heritage "a black".

Re:Gamers are Awful

[theghost]

Given that you think "fag" and "nigger" are ok, i wouldn't expect you to think twice about words that denigrate women, whites, or rural folks. I think that says more about you than it does about the words.

I do understand language change, but i don't think you are qualified to explain when or how it happens. If you think "nigger" is a neutral term then you are utterly clueless.

You are confusing a permissive attitude towards a denigrating term with the neutrality of the term. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are neither black nor gay and that you probably don't have many black friends or friends who admit to you that they are gay.

Don't confuse the words that your friends let you get away with using for words that are neutral. Go ask a black man on the street if he minds if you call him "nigger." Go to an LGBTA meeting and ask them if they mind being called "fag" by heterosexuals, or if it bothers them that anything someone doesn't like can be called "gay."

I think a lot of people are trying to excuse their insensitive language. If you want to talk like a bigotted asshole that's your right, but don't kid yourself into thinking it's ok to dismiss the casual, and pervasive persecution of a significant minority of people because you feel like using some new slang. Who's got it worse, people who get dirty looks when they say "fag," or people who are treated like second-class citizens every day of their life?

Re:Gamers are Awful

[raindog2]

Speaking as a gay guy who uses "gay" in its other sense as well, I think "stupid" is an oversimplification of its pejorative usage. It doesn't merely mean "stupid", it means something like "lame or ridiculous, but treated as serious by those presenting it."

For example, compare these anti-piracy efforts. This is sorta lame, but this is SO, SO GAY. I can't come up with another one-word description of that ad campaign.

I've been out of the closet since about age 15. Nonetheless, I'm not going to let thin-skinned people ruin a perfectly good word for which there's no precise synonym merely because the people who originated it meant it as an insult to people like me. In case you haven't noticed, those people use different and more hateful words now anyway.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Pluvius]

Given that you think "fag" and "nigger" are ok, i wouldn't expect you to think twice about words that denigrate women, whites, or rural folks. I think that says more about you than it does about the words.

Yes, it says that I'm a rational individual who tries not to hold to preconceived notions of what other people may be trying to express.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are neither black nor gay and that you probably don't have many black friends or friends who admit to you that they are gay.

Ignoring the horribly cliched "OMG HE'S DOESN'T TOE THE POLITICALLY-CORRECT LINE HE MUST BE RACIST" tone to this sentence, I find it interesting that you haven't asked whether or not I'm a woman, white, or rural.

Go ahead, ask.

Don't confuse the words that your friends let you get away with using for words that are neutral. Go ask a black man on the street if he minds if you call him "nigger." Go to an LGBTA meeting and ask them if they mind being called "fag" by heterosexuals, or if it bothers them that anything someone doesn't like can be called "gay."

I refer you to the part of my post where I suggested (using sarcasm) that emotional reactions do nothing to disprove my point.

Who's got it worse, people who get dirty looks when they say "fag," or people who are treated like second-class citizens every day of their life?

Here's a question: Why is this relevant?

Rob

Re:Gamers are Awful

[theghost]

You can try to be as pedantically logical as you want, but these words hurt people's feelings and by not challenging their use, we implicitly encourage homophobia. Emotional reactions are the point. I can say that from now on i will use "nigger" instead of the word rose. It's no less logical than any other symbolic link, but that doesn't change the effect of the word and the interpretation others have of it.

Here's a question: Why are you so defensive about this? I speak from direct experience with people who have been and continue to be hurt by others' ignorant and casual use of these words. People i care about are hurt by them every day - that's why i feel strongly about this. What's your story?

Re:Gamers are Awful

[AceM2]

Interesting thing though is that the homophobes are trying to figure out why homosexuals are supposed to be accepted without a second thought, and believe that they'd be better off it wasn't the case.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[CTachyon]

Here in the US, "queer" is worse when used offensively than "gay", but nowhere near as strong as "fag"/"faggot". It's been semi-adopted as an umbrella term to replace the ever-growing and unwieldly GLBTQ acronym (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender (of which transsexuals are only one part), Questioning). The Straight Person's Guide To Gay Etiquette has a chapter discussing language usage that touches on the subject.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[verrucagnome]

That said, if you had friends who wouldn't say "nigger" if there was a black person in the room, but would when out amongst white people because "no one's going to get offended", I bet you wouldn't be so quick to say they weren't racist.

But I see your point.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[CTachyon]

Okay, I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and assume that you're as free of anti-gay bias as you claim. However, you're ignoring the cardinal rule of language -- words have the meaning they do because of mutual agreement between speaker and listener. Go out and ask ten people, "Do you think an average gay person would be insulted by the word 'fag'?" I'm willing to bet that a solid majority would say yes -- definitely in a random sample, but probably even if you just poll your friends and family. So, the people that you are speaking to hear you say "fag", and they assume that you don't care if you insult gay people. And why don't you care? They'll assume you dislike gay people. And, if you dislike gay people, why shouldn't they? Peer pressure is the mechanism of social change at the individual level -- and every time you choose to use that word, the rate of change slows down, just a bit.

And that's not even touching on how it affects gay people who overhear you say it. Despite years of trying to train myself out of it, "fag" is still one of the few triggers words I have that makes me punch through walls in lieu of someone's face. To be honest, I'm surprised I've never broken my hand.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

Retard is a slang for mentally retarded. Now that it is improper to use the word retard to refer to someone who is "mentally challenged", we can feel free to use it to insult the stupid people.

One question for you, Where did "fuckwit" come from?

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

How does allowing one to hurt another's feelings encourage fear? Perhaps you'd like to learn English and know that homophobia is fear of homosexuals rather than the contempt you seem to be describing.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[ChaoticLimbs]

You're assuming that the blacks in your neighborhood can only react with violence when faced with a person whose head is screwed on crooked? It sounds like you're saying that blacks are violent and dangerous to white people. Is that what you're saying?
Patronization or instituting reduced standards is the most subversive form of racism. You are in essence saying that their blackness somehow causes them to break the law and act out with brutality or violence. I don't buy that.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[theghost]

Hurt feelings and fear are the results the insults have on their targets and on those they impugn - gays in general.

Homophobia is what brought about the malign use of the words and a permissive attitude towards both homophobia itself and the use of homophobic slurs encourages the continuance of bigotry.

Homophobia does literally mean fear of homosexuality, but how people respond to that fear is also included in the usage of the term. Fear is often at the root of many different actions and emotions, including contempt, anger, hatred, and violence.

The people who have the most drastic and violent reactions to homosexuality are usually the ones who are most insecure in their own sexuality.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that what they say when you attend your weekly NAMBLA meeting? Loser.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

NAMBLA! Loser! Good won Beevis! You shur shoed him!

Re:Gamers are Awful

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why my friends and doing the following. In an effort to reverse this social training we are using the following expressions:

When something is cool: "That is so gay!"

When something is not cool: "That is so not gay!"

Try it. Since starting using it this way around friends I havn't accidentally used it derogatively once.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[stonecypher]

Do you realize that "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks

This is a common misperception. A faggot is a bouquet garnis - it's a bundle of woody herbs, like cinnamon, thyme, and so on, not sticks.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[stonecypher]

They do it when they don't realise 5% of the room (or whatever it is) are, in fact, gay or bisexual, because most non-straights are very quiet about it, because it isn't universally accepted as ok, so they end up insulting people unintentionally.

You know, it's funny, the very same people which cannot make it past a word being used in a context other than the offensive one they consistently find are the people which use words like asshole, moron, cretin, and other words which descend from far more offensive roots.

Perhaps etymology in small doses would cure people of their insistance that using slang is offensive. I can call you a bastard, and nobody thinks I'm challenging your parents' marriage license.

The secret to that 95% of straight and gay people getting on with life without being torn apart by South Park is that we realize that almost nobody actually gives a half a damn. You shouldn't either. Stop being fifteen.

Re:Gamers are Awful

[stonecypher]

Apparently you've never been an oppressed minority. Or do you honestly believe that realizations regarding language use are somehow keyed to skin color?

Baldur's Gate

[Ninja Master Gara]

Unless memory fails me, Baldur's Gate also allowed you develop a gay relationship. There wasn't any particular special treatment for it, it just didn't exclude conversation by gender. You couldn't have a child tho :P

Re:Baldur's Gate

[Killjoy_NL]

I remember that in Final Fantasy 7 that you could even score love points with Barret.

Big black dude with a tude :)

Funny though.

Re:Baldur's Gate

[Kaimelar]

Unless memory fails me, Baldur's Gate also allowed you develop a gay relationship. There wasn't any particular special treatment for it, it just didn't exclude conversation by gender. You couldn't have a child tho :P

A friend of mine told me he did same-sex romances in BG2 w/o mods. Started the game as a male character, but used the Girdle of Masculinity/Feminity, changing the character to a woman. The trick is that all the romance scripts in the game are based on what gender the character starts out as, and are not affected by said magical item. The end result was my friend's (now) female character having an interesting romantic tangle w/ Jeheria, Viconia, and Aerie. :-)

Re:Baldur's Gate

[Ninja Master Gara]

I know for a fact I didn't modify the game, but I started as a female, and both Aerie and Jeheria were... receptive. :)

you just had to....

[Anonymous Coward]

you just had to encourage the gnaa with this didn't ya?

Where's the trolls

[Profane MuthaFucka]

For once, the GNAA would be slightly on-topic, and they are nowhere to be found. Trolls are so damn unreliable.

Players are already transgender...

[the_skywise]

How many guys play the female characters in DOA?

Re:Players are already transgender...

[Anonymous Coward]

I play the chicks on DOA because they are quick. I would also rather look at a chick character (especially DOA). Its fun beating my friends and their male characters. All the more merrier.

Re:Players are already transgender...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always used the female characters in every fighting game more. chun li, katana.. they're quicker, and I like to stare at their body. That skin tight dress on the girl from killer instinct.. you know what I'm talkin bout!

FPS?

[Zevets]

Oh wait a second, it's not an FPS!

Too early to tell

[MMaestro]

To my knowledge, The Temple of Elemental Evil is the only mainstream computer role playing game that gives players a serious gay option without "forcing" gayness on a heterosexual player. Perhaps it will serve as a worthy model for games to come.

Considering gamers still use the words 'fag', 'gay' and 'homo' in order to insult each other online, it'll be a while until homosexual characters are implemented more into games. Don't forget, video games mirror reality so until the public accepts homosexuality, gamers won't accept homosexuality.

On top of that, don't forget that video games have barely scratched the surface of heterosexual relationships anywhere near as far as the article's example goes. While most people point to BMX XXX, GTA3, GTA:VC, and DOA : Xtreme Volleyball as video games protraying or promoting heterosexuality, theres no hinting of any type of "relationship" between the characters. The most I've ever seenen any type of friendship between "just friends" is in linear RPGs (which isn't saying much since it is linear).

Re:Too early to tell

[bofkentucky]

Considering gamers still use the words 'fag', 'gay' and 'homo' in order to insult each other online

It isn't just gamers, it is young men that are involved in healthy competition. Do you know how many times I was called honky, redneck, or cracker on a football field? Do you know how many times I fired back with an appropriate racial or socioeconomic slurs for my competition? You don't have time to craft a well formed retort to the jackass across the line from you, so you call him a c--ksucker, n---er, or motherf--ker, or when you grow up and play politics, you call the competition liars, "Republican Attack Machine", captain of the Submarine Chappaquiddick, tax and spend liberal, or pinko. Yeah it isn't highbrow, but it gets your point across.

Re:Too early to tell

[0x0d0a]

Considering gamers still use the words 'fag', 'gay' and 'homo' in order to insult each other online, it'll be a while until homosexual characters are implemented more into games.

Yes, they should be using "lame" or "retard" or "bastard".

Re:Too early to tell

[ruprechtjones]

"Considering gamers still use the words 'fag', 'gay' and 'homo' in order to insult each other online..."

While true, I think (at least in the big city, not so much in rural areas) that most homosexuals get these innuendos and ride with them. I've played alongside several, okay two homosexuals in a bout of Halo and there was no issue with me or the other heteros or even themselves yelling "get off my Warthog, faggot!" The only time that there is a sensitivity is usually when somebody is just coming out of the closet and is still in that self-identity mode, trying to figure out how all this works. And I hate dealing with fresh closet cases, they are wayyyy more emotionally messed up than the two married dudes in the corner.

Re:Too early to tell

[Rallion]

Man, it took me a second to even get that. Wow. That says a lot.

Well, at least...it does if it took anybody else a second, too. Otherwise, it just tells me I'm a moron.

Re:Too early to tell

[theghost]

It isn't just gamers, it is young men that are involved in healthy competition.

Using some of the most repugnant slurs is considered an acceptable part of "healthy" competition? Just because it's common doesn't make it right. How about instead of calling him a fag, nigger, whatever, you just beat him at whatever you're doing? That gets the point across best of all.

(If you absolutely feel the need to humiliate your opponent, you can then say, in your sweetest voice, "You tried so hard there! Keep up the good work!")

Re:Too early to tell

[MainframeKiller]

Yes, they should be using "lame" or "retard" or "bastard".

As a crippled and mentally challenged child born out of wedlock, I resent that! ;)

Staring at Crystal Ball(s)

[illuminata]

Well, we're bound to see some more gays in video games under the political climate. It really wouldn't surprise me to see quite a few titles.

Why? Instant publicity. Your game will get mentioned in the press if you give it a decent enough initial push. Gay influence has already saturated movies, television, and music. It hasn't really been a big issue in video games (this slight mention doesn't really make it a big issue). But, if you show that it's out there, you can get the mainstream press debating like mad. Imagine Bill O'Reilly and Rosie O'Donnell debating in a knife fight.

Those debates equal massive amounts of money, and gays will buy the game just to show support over the issue. A larger company might end up boycotted by some, but that would probably blow over.

Eventually, this whole thing will die down. But, if a game company were to play their cards right, it could equal massive amounts of money.

Re:Staring at Crystal Ball(s)

[Anonymous Coward]

Those debates equal massive amounts of money, and gays will buy the game just to show support over the issue.

Well you're right about the free publicity, but the number of gays buying the game out of support would be dwarfed by the number of religious types who wouldn't let their kids play such a game.

Let's face it, the main reason there aren't many games that target gay consumers is because gays are a tiny portion of the game market. There aren't even a hell of a lot of games for girls, and females are more than half the population! Why risk rocking the boat for a couple percent of your demographic, max?

Re:Staring at Crystal Ball(s)

[Dragoon412]

Bill O'Reilly and Rosie O'Donnell

...and imagine neither of them making it out alive! Oh, what a glorious day that'd be.

Next up should be Michael Moore vs. Ann Coulter...

Neverwinter Nights

[TheDarkRogue]

It always pissed me off that my female avatar couldn't get any lesbian lovin at that whorehouse/tavern in act 1. I had her strip her armor and all, but neither of the women would go for her, told her to go talk to the guy. And the Token was non-refundable too if I remember correctly. So I just killed everyone in the building (except for that fat bitch, she wouldn't die, vital part of the story or some shit), but it wasn't as filling.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[ScarletEmerald]

This works in Fallout (or was it Fallout 2). Girls could sleep with the girls, guys with the guys... I think you could even have same sex marriages.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[Roto-Rooter Man]

Yeah, and the game's political agenda already tilts left. You've got the white guilt-inducing natives with smallpox mission, and the mission where you murder 30 zookeepers to free 4 animals and it's considered an act of good. They coulda tossed gay prostitution in the mix too.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[Rallion]

Guys could sleep with the guys? I didn't think so. I thought it was lesbian or straight only--and I did just play the game, as a guy. Of course, you can still work as a fluffer in the porn studio...but you don't enjoy it much, you get poisoned from it.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[ScarletEmerald]

Could be, my memory's a little fuzzy. I thought in Fallout2 you could at least marry some farm guy though.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[Anonymous Coward]

You could sleep with a farmboy in Fallout 2, then his father would walk in on you as you were getting dressed and insist on you getting married. You'd be stuck with him as a useless tagalong in you party that did nothing but nag.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[Echnin]

You could talk yourself out of it if you had high intelligence. Just had to tell him you were a doctor.

I'm also uncertain that male-male was possible, but female-female was certainly possible. Long time since I played with a male character, though.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[Quinn]

I was ball-gagged and ass-balled by a supermutant in Broken Hills. True story.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[Mentally_Overclocked]

but it wasn't as filling.

I'm sure it wasn't.

Re:Neverwinter Nights

[sendai2ci]

Bwahahahahah! I did the same thing...but then again...I was chaotic evil...

The Longest Journey

[AvantLegion]

The Longest Journey, a wonderful point-and-click adventure from a few years ago, featured a main character who rents her room from a lesbian couple. The game treated this like a natural thing, not something to be pointed out and grandstanded (in fact, it took a couple references before I got suspicious, and a couple more before I fully caught on).

Re:The Longest Journey

[Echnin]

That might be because it's a Scandinavian game, and Scandinavian countries have pretty liberal same-sex policies.

Don't forget Final Fantasy VII

[dhill-dm]

Let's not forget the infamous 'group room' in Final Fantasy VII. The district of Wall Market in Midgar had the Honey Bee, which was a voyeurous locale. (Even more amusing was the quest to dress up Cloud as a woman in order to successfully fool some enemies.)

Re:Don't forget Final Fantasy VII

[ZX-3]

Let's not forget the infamous 'group room' in Final Fantasy VII.

This would be a good time to dispell the common misconception that Vincent Valentine is gay: Vincent Valentine is metrosexual, not gay.

Hey, now

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe in a live and let live approach to the whole thing, but I'd damn well better not have any of that stuff as a necessary part of a plot. If I wanted to spend my free time having gay adventures, let me tell you, I'd be doing it. Quite frankly, if a video game required the PC to be gay, or even think about it, I wouldn't buy it, no matter what it was. The video game market caters to the white teenage upper-middle class male, that's what I am, and I like it. Diversity's all well and good, but I want what I want and I don't want what I don't want. If I don't get it, I'll vote with my pocketbook. That shit just makes me uncomfortable.

Quite frankly, I don't see why everyone's so keen on diversifying the video game industry, trying to be all revolutionary and shit. The last thing I want is having lessons in Gayness or Feminism or Tolerance or whatever shoved down my throat when I'm trying to just relax and play a game. I want to strap some armor on my cracker ass, get a sword, hack some shit up, and get a girl.

Eagle

[LGagnon]

Eagle from Capcom vs SNK 2 (who was a character in the original Street Fighter) came out of the closet in that game as an openly gay character. Many of his winning quotes in the Japanese version of the game show this. The American version, however, had the quotes changed to not show his sexuality.

Nope

[fm6]

Well, homophobes seem to be underrepresented in computer games (I would have thought that fag-bashing would a natural theme for violent video games, but no). But that aside, who says that games are any less accepting of gays than the population at large. Even a few years ago, I took it for granted that most people were fundamentally and irrevocably homophobic, but the everything I've seen recently seems to indicate that I'm wrong.

I think one important change is that there are now a lot of people out there who were raised by openly gay couples. An article I read last Sunday estimates the numbers are something like 15 million. A small minority, but likely to have influence disproportinate to their numbers. Once you have to as careful about fag jobs as you are about polack jokes, you know there's a fundamental change in attitude.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, those numbers are grossly inflated.

The true number of gays in America is MUCH closer to 3-4% than 10%. And a very large chunk of that 3-4% is still in the closet, and very happy to be there.

Re:Nope

[theghost]

Hey dipshit - do the math.

Current US Population: (roughly) 300 million

15 million is about 5% of the current US population.

And, oh yeah, work on your critical reading skills. He was discussing the number of people raised in queer families, not the number of homosexuals.

The only reason anyone is happy to be in the closet is that they fear the repercussions of being openly gay.

Re:Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

The only reason anyone is happy to be in the closet is that they fear the repercussions of being openly gay

You mean dying of some kind of filthy disease or other?

Play in a sewer ... you can expect to get sick.

geeze...

[manual_overide]

the idea of a fantasy role-playing game featuring only one white male avatar will seem a strange, misguided aspect of our distant past.

Right. Because heterosexual white males are, in fact, nothing more than a myth. And anyone saying otherwise is a homophobe or a terrorist. Puh-leeze.

One white male avatar will seem strange and misguided??! Oh, of course. White males aren't really people. They are just dragons waiting to eat all the REAL, CLAIRVOIANT PEOPLE. After all, "white" is a real race. Just like ALL "black" people are african-americans. I guess I'm German-American, or European-American.... No? Not born in Europe or even in Germany you say? But the "black" baby born in Cleveland is somehow African-American?? Why not Kenyan-American, or even Egyptian-American?

This story irritates me to no end. "Nickelodeon says it's cool to be gay!!" "MTV says all the white men are out to get me!" Why is this story big news?? Personally, I don't care what happens in your bedroom, and lets keep it that way, thank you very much. Also, what's so wrong about white males? I happen to be one, and don't think that I am contributing to the ruination of society by simply existing.

I know for a fact that I can't be "The Man". I can barely wake up before 11:00 AM, much less keep entire races of peoples from attaining financial independance. It's not me!!! (or most of us, for that matter)

Blah... I'm drunk and ranting... but you get my point. If you don't get it... I don't care. I'm gonna be sleeping until it's time for work.

Re:geeze...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, yeah. You are German-American, just like I'm Irish-American.

It's your ancestry, dosn't matter where you're born.

Re:geeze...

[Scorchio]

I've never fully understood the rules for this. How many generations are you allowed to go? Am I just English? English-English? Or Viking-English? Or African-English, if you trace back the origins of mankind?

Does it work on birthplace or citizenship? If I became a US citizen, would I then be English-American, or still just English?

Oh bugger.. I just rambled right off topic. I'm off to mod myself down.

Re:geeze...

[corbettw]

I recall a news story recently about a South African who had immigrated to America, and was almost kicked out of school for campaigning for himself as "African-American of the year", or some such. The school claimed he couldn't compete because he was white, even though he had been born in Africa and was now an American.

Not much love in general.

[Thinkit4]

Final fantasy touches upon it, but in general video games shy away from love stories. It's like they're stuck on a preadolscent boy's view--you can defeat all the baddies to rescue her, but then what happens?

Oh hello!

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean aside from the shy guys, dudes wearing cloacks and masks just for a day out?

Let's take a trip back to a time when two openly gay plumbers would swim and frolic in a land of mushrooms picking flowers, chasing stars to campy electronic music, and of course ending every level by sliding on a pole followed by fireworks!

I think we got the message!

And the dog in Duck Hunt. You can see him in the background at Big Gay Al's Animal Sanctuary. Don't even get me started on the evil midgets Kung-Fu. They would go right for your crotch every time!

YOU MISOGYNIST PIG!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's advocating violence against women! Mod him down.

Fallout 2

[WaterTroll]

I never played Fallout 1, but I sure did spend 99% of one summer playing the sequel. You could do all kinds of things with your character, marry, practice prostitution (both ways), have affairs, scandals, and what not. Sexual orientation was often not designed towards a certain association.

As opposed to lack of complexity?

[Pluvius]

I doubt it will be long before even the idea of a fantasy role-playing game featuring only one white male avatar will seem a strange, misguided aspect of our distant past.

In my day, you were lucky if you even had an avatar independent of your own personality. Remember, a lot of games had only one avatar because it was easier that way, not because of any "misguided" notions of how a character should act.

Rob

I just have to wonder.

[pauldy]

Is this is what passes for "News for nerds. Stuff that matters." Who cares!!!

While a provocative story for mental midgets who think that the discussion of race, sex, and sexual preference are somehow enlightening. The true enlightenment comes when you realize how freaking boring that is because overall there are no differences.

This story has far less to do with video game avatars as it does to do with justifying homosexuality as a non-deviant lifestyle. How can anyone take writing like this seriously when the commander and chief of the united states of America is referred to as a religious fundamentalist.

Re:I just have to wonder.

[Molina the Bofh]

How can anyone take writing like this seriously when the commander and chief of the united states of America is referred to as a religious fundamentalist.

Sorry, I read your sentence 4 times and still could not get your point. Isn't he ?

Re:I just have to wonder.

[Anonymous Coward]

How can anyone take writing like this seriously when the commander and chief of the united states of America is referred to as a religious fundamentalist.

I also don't quite understand his point, but, in answer to your question, George W. Bush is an evangelical Christian with fundamentalist tendencies. (Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, converted Bush to Christianity long after Bush had left the staid Episcopalian faith of his father.)

However, evangelical Christianity is a much wider net than one might assume, and even as a quasi-fundamentalist on many issues, Bush's own personal views tend to be fairly open. His ecumenical stance on Islam, for example, puts him directly at odds with many fundamentalist Christians, while he is personally (if not politically) quite tolerant of homosexuality. Watching his public statement in support of the anti-gay-marriage amendment was a remarkable experience; I haven't seen GWB look so uncomfortable since Andy Hiller asked him to identify General Musharraf in 1999.

It's actually quite difficult and error-prone to identify people's political views by their religious affiliation; opinion surveys have consistently shown that political affiliation is best way to predict how a person will react to specific issues, regardless of their religious beliefs.

-Watchful Babbler

Re:I just have to wonder.

[pauldy]

Sorry about your literacy issue you must be one of those arkansian supporters. For your digestion I offer the following.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fundament alist

So what's your agenda with that comment? True ignorance? Is it simply a contemptuous comment born out of the heart of a truly helpless individual?

I for one am done with people who make unsubstantiated ludicrous comments about our president because they can't find anything truly wrong with him or how he has done as president. It just so happens that people who make statements like that about bush fall into two categories. The first being the ignorant sheeples that just heard it from someone else. The second being the people who hate bush no matter what he does because he was "elected not elected".

In any event the article itself was not worth even being mentioned on slashdot as its only tie in are the avatars in video games and guess what they don't mater. The comment about Bush was just to illustrate the writer is a little out of touch with reality to begin with and as such the story itself is wroth even less because of that.

Re:I just have to wonder.

[Molina the Bofh]

they can't find anything truly wrong with him or how he has done as president.

I could make a list, but how about start with not signinging the Kyoto threat, thinking that Global Warming is a hoax ?

How about lying to a whole nation in order to get support for a war for personal reasons ?

How about murdering more than 20 thousand innocent civilian Iraquis ?

Re:I just have to wonder.

[pauldy]

Boy you are just full of shit aren't you.

Hows about picking one and explaining it rather than touting completely unrelated tidbits of misaligned information.

I'm still not convinced on global warming so how can I condemn another man who also isn't convinced. While we understand a lot more about climatology now than we did 100 years ago it doesn't mean the study of it has been mastered yet. There are as many reasons to question global warming as there are to accept it so to say he is wrong in his opinion on the subject I think shows a great lack of understanding for the position he is in.

The president has to weight in the economic impact of all conservationist type reactions to such perceived threats and determine which outcome is the most likely. The environment is very robust and to take the stand that we as humans could destroy it within the span of 20 years shows a complete lack of understanding of the scale of the earth for one thing.

I love how you just say he lied to a whole nation in order to get support for the war. What did he say or even insinuate that was a lie?

The truth is your the one lying you are the one whose a threat to this nation and innocent Iraqis. Its people like you who murdered more than 400 thousand innocent Iraqi's during the gulf war.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105070,00.html

http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/

I would love to see you try and explain to these people why the US promised people Sadam would not hurt them in exchange for their support. Take a hard look and realize these are real people too. While you would place the blood of the innocent killed on the hands of the one person who is actually doing the right thing for once in our government. These people were all murdered for believing they might one day live in a world were they didn't have to fear the wrath of Sadam.

But of course innocent civilian lives only count when it suits your agenda. Not that I think you would lose any sleep on it after all the only point you wanted to make was how evil Bush really is. The truth is if people like you don't wake up and realize the world isn't republican vs. democrat then you will continue to be a regurgitator of lies and a threat to all the is just and fair in the world.

This has gone way off topic and I would be glad to give you more on this tangent once something like this becomes a topic on Slashdot as I'm sure others would as well.

Re:I just have to wonder.

[Molina the Bofh]

"I'm still not convinced on global warming so how can I condemn another man who also isn't convinced."

Ok. That shows you're as ignorant as Bush. The difference is that you don't have to make decisions that can change the world, so you're excused to be ignorant. Even though Bush is dumb, he has specialists to help. And all these specialists, including those from Pentagon, are warning him about this. And he doesn't care. I strongly suggest you read this this

I love how you just say he lied to a whole nation in order to get support for the war. What did he say or even insinuate that was a lie?

You must been brain-washed if you din't notice the lies. He tried to picture Saddam as a threat to the US. But Saddam, althought being a son-of-a-bitch crazy loon, was harmless to the world at that point. His army was almost dismanteled, specially if compared to what it was some years ago. He didn't have any missile able to reach the continental US. He didn't have any WMD (in fact I am surprised the US didn't plant any WMD in Iraq, to be found). He was not affiliated with Al-Qaeda. And all reports Bush received indicated all this. But he tried to supress and change these reports and fabricate others, that would incriminate Saddam.

I suggest you read this excelent explanation, this and this. Please tell me what you think after reading these links.

Re:I just have to wonder.

[Molina the Bofh]

As we are talking about this, if you have the chance to watch 60 minutes, on CBS, this sunday, you'll be able to watch the White House counter- terrorism co-ordinator by 11/09, saying:


ON the day of the al-Qaeda attacks on New York and Washington on September 11, Donald Rumsfeld urged George Bush to retaliate immediately by bombing Iraq.
Richard Clarke, then the White House counter- terrorism co-ordinator, said: "Defence secretary Rumsfeld was saying we needed to bomb Iraq. We all said, 'But no, no, al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan.' They were talking about Iraq on 9/11."

Rumsfeld responded by saying that "there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan and there are lots of good targets in Iraq".


They just needed an excuse. They were crazy to attack Iraq. They had no excuses, so they fabricated it.

Re:I just have to wonder.

[pauldy]

Wait a minute your going to quote the same man who was so worried about cyber -terrorism he allowed the threat of real terrorism to bloom like a flower in springtime as a credible source. How he BSed it through three presidential terms I have no idea but that obviously all he was good at. Do you not blame him for not taking care of the situation after the first trade center attack? Some people blame Clinton I always blamed Clarke and his idiocy that cyber-terrorism was the real threat while real terrorism was not a "real" threat. Or does he get a by on the because he is attacking Bush now?

There are multiple examples of him not having much sense. He did after all make his contributions like with the freedom of information act. Now of course it is being used now by companies to protect themselves from being prosecuted for various offenses. You know the ones who are polluting the atmosphere, dumping into rivers, etc... You can find it listed as his impediment to information sharing.

That aside the fact is they did not need an excuse. The US reserved the right to go back to war with Iraq at any time when they began causing problems for weapons inspectors.

If someone other than Clarke had reported this and there were more parties to collaborate it I would believe it. I wouldn't think much of it though. We did not just immediately bomb Iraq. The president isn't quoted as saying this the secretary of defense is. I think this shows how good of a president Bush is that he listened to the Secretary of Defense tell him this and he went down the right path of going after Al-Quida while using Colon Powel (given the Bush situation with Sadam) as the person to negotiate a peaceful means to reinstating the weapons inspections in Iraq to remove the potential unknown threat they posed.

How could any of this be considered a reason to attack Bush given the facts and not just rhetoric. Sometime it helps to look at what the input was and what the output is instead of trying to use disgruntled accounts of what happened in the middle to undermine the outcome.

It *IS* just a word

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you tried looking up either word in the dictionary? Hell, try www.m-w.com if you are that lazy, which you probably are, so I'll just post the results.

Gay
1 a : happily excited : MERRY b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits
2 a : BRIGHT, LIVELY b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : LICENTIOUS
4 a : HOMOSEXUAL b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals

Lets also try Fag as a noun:
1 chiefly British : TOIL, DRUDGERY
2 a : an English public-school boy who acts as servant to an older schoolmate b : DRUDGE

and it also means cigarette, and is also short for faggot, meaning "a male homosexual".

It isn't homophobia unless the person uses it in that CONTEXT. I do agree it is a rampantly used in games but it isn't being used to lambast homosexuals.

Another Example: SaGa Frontier

[Carlos Rodriguez]

SaGa Frontier was a console RPG from Square for the Playstation 1 that passed almost unnoticed in the USA (the weird and argueably broken gameplay presumably had something to do with it). One of the playable characters was a woman, Asellus, who developed a somewhat romantic relationship with another female character. I remember finding out about this in the GIA review, and corraborated later when I had the chance to play the game.

For some reason I didn't consider this that shocking... I've always found that anime and manga are open to same-sex relationships and gender-bending characters (like the lesbian couple in Sailor Moon and the affeminate Pisces Aphrodite in Saint Seiya), so I wasn't that shocked to find it out in a japanese videogame. But it was pretty novel for american released videogames for that time - I don't think Nintendo would have allowed during the NES or SNES eras!

Re:Another Example: SaGa Frontier

[Anonymous Coward]

Square's games really started kicking ass when they broke free from Nintendo's censors.

Newsflash!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Straight guys don't want anything bigger than the tip of a feminine pinky near their pooper!

If by some chance their attempts to prevent this from happening fail, the status of the situation is in fact "Seriously uncool, and in need of an immediate and significant change."

Don't feel bad. It is simply a recognition that some behavior is seriously offensive, because not only aren't they playing on the same team, but they're not playing by the same rules, because they're into a whole different game. It's a statement about an individuals place in the hierarchy and their objectives that run counter to those of "the group." In one word it offers a very complete description of a person, their objectives, their behavior, how it reflects upon them, and how the individual making the comment thinks the group should feel. One word, a ton of information. It will never go away until gay people start dominating team sports. Outside of Rugby, I don't see this happening.

Don't be a prissy little bitch. Suck it up. Essentially you're against analogies. Or are only homosexuals allowed to use them?

Besides, if you're cracking open a tall cold 40oz can of whoop-ass and people call you gay, embrace it. It's slightly more humiliating if the snappy comment du jour involves ones father as opposed to ones mother. Or so I would imagine. What man could live down losing a slap fight?

I view myself...

[Anonymous Coward]

more as their able, demanding and intently observant coach.

How about the converse

[meta-monkey]

I doubt it will be long before even the idea of a fantasy role-playing game featuring only one white male avatar will seem a strange, misguided aspect of our distant past.

Ummmm....no. Look, diversity is great and all, but there's nothing wrong with "normal" either. "normal" is just a subset of "diverse." How about we try the converse of this statement instead:

"I doubt it will be long before a fantasy role-playing game featuring characters of multiple races, genders, and sexual orientations will not seem unusual or out of the ordinary."

The contrapositive of this statement is also bullshit: "a game that does not seem to be a strange, misguided aspect of our distant past will not feature only a single white male character."

Re:How about the converse

[0x0d0a]

"I doubt it will be long before a fantasy role-playing game featuring characters of multiple races, genders, and sexual orientations will not seem unusual or out of the ordinary."

The video game industry desperately needs death-dealing lesbian bird-women.

Poll

[quinkin]

Ok folks - who here actually gives a flying fsck about gay characters in a game, or a movie, or your work place?

Sure archetypical stereotypes can be offensive, you may be unsure about your own sexuality, you may be expected to react appropriately (see vilify) in front of your peers, etc. But, in essence it should not be any more offensive than a republican, or a dog, or anything else that you are not.

Q.

Re:Poll

[xilmaril]

first, I rather agree.

But that sort of slur against gays is totally unacceptable! Republicans? gays are not some sick, deviational group, outcast from humanity.

comparing a usually decent group of humans to republicans... really now

(oh yeah, and I'm bitter)

Not to be insensitive...

[agent dero]

I for one, have a lesbian sister, who cares, it's her life. I don't know ANYONE that is a gamer and gay, is it really something we need to discuss?

But in today's media frenzie about gay marriage you have to stop and ask yourself, why does 2% of the american populate have 98% of the media/political focus? Is this really SUCH a big issue nowadays?

Our forefathers meant free, as in free for rich white property owning men; we take it as meaning free for everybody.
I'm sure gays weren't intended in the civil rights acts, but we can take it as if they're included. It wasn't rights just for blacks, it was for everybody

Re:Not to be insensitive...

[CTachyon]

I don't know ANYONE that is a gamer and gay...

*waves hand frantically*

*waves hand unenthusiastically*

*rolls eyes and walks off to play some Metroid Prime*

Great Greed

[0x0d0a]

In Great Greed (For the Game Boy, a Nintendo system!) you could choose to marry any of the king's daughters (who are major characters in the game) after finishing the game.

You could also choose to marry either the king or the queen.

Granted, the king criticizes you to some degree if you marry him, but it *is* a homosexual marriage taking place on a Nintendo system some years ago.

Tingle from Zelda, others...

[Thinkit4]

Tingle! A guy with a goatee who wants to be a fairy--could it get any more clear? Hmm, somewhat obscure game called Psychic Quest for game gear had a quasi-lesbian quest for one sister to rescue another.

Re:Tingle from Zelda, others...

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's quasi-lesbian, would that make it quasi-incestuous? Excuse me while I go surfing for the ROM...

Because the Christian church is fighting back

[0x0d0a]

Because every time over the years that the Christian church has been proven to be wrong or completely ridiculous on a point, they fight as hard as they can to avoid losing. They always do in the end, but they fight in the meantime.

Look at it this way -- gay-bashing, lame as it is, is a whole hell of a lot less dangerous than the execution that Galileo faced if he didn't recant his idea of the Earth going around the Sun.

Re:Because the Christian church is fighting back

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, don't associate the Roman Catholic Church with christianity, you insensitive clodd.

Since the story's already a troll-trap

[0x0d0a]

one white male avatar

And there are few *American* characters. There are lots of Japanese, but no *American* ones -- none of this blue and red hair anime business. What's wrong with apple pies can chocolate-chip cookies?

If only we had American, homosexual protagonists of color.

Yea! I got a troll mod

[trentfoley]

I've been here for a while and have had but two troll moderations in that time. I knew this one was bait, but posted it anyway. You know, free-speech and all.

Oddly enough, I have had but one "redundant" moderation. It seems like you should need more.

Guilty Gear XX - Bridget

[Lemmy Caution]

The best traumatizing-to-fragile-heterosexual-identities videogame characters was GGXX's Bridget - a gender-confused boy who fights with a yo-yo and was raised as, dresses as and acts like a girl. A pretty hot girl. as cel-shaded Japanese fighters go.

Bridget probably sent more than one fanboy to therapy.

Re:Guilty Gear XX - Bridget

[bludstone]

Except its not Japanese, Its Korean.

Look at me, I nitpick!

Re:Guilty Gear XX - Bridget

[Lemmy Caution]

Don't think so. The designer is Daisuke Ishiwatari and it was produced by Arc System Works, based in Yokohama.

Re:Guilty Gear XX - Bridget

[bludstone]

But the company is Korean, isnt it?

Im calling a truce. :)

Morrowind

[Hythlodaeus]

To me the best gay character in a game is great, because it was completely unintentional. The character is Crassius Curio in the game Morrowind. He was intended to be a very lecherous, but straight character. However, there was a bug that caused him to give the dialogue for female players regardless of the character's actual gender. The result: he comes across as absolutely, flamingly gay.

Re:Morrowind

[Roman_(ajvvs)]

I was going to bring this up, you you beat me to it. Crassius (and Morrowind as a whole) is an interesting example of the way different genders are treated, developed for and perceived in computer games.

Crassius had different scripts to cater for female and male avatars. The developers made the assumption that the avatar is straight and made Crassius act lewd towards females and simple haughty to males (ie, charging them more money). As it happened, a coding glitch caused only the female-oriented script to be used. As a consequence of this, some people asked "if Crassius is gay". Not because he was scripted as such, but because he came across as such to them. I thought he was just daintily eccentric as people in high positions are... *shrugs*

Morrowind makes a distinction between males and females in the character scripting and voice-comments, but not in the general storyline or skill development. Since most people are wearing robes and/or armour, gender-biased clothing isn't really an critical issue (but it does exist, as female armour meshes were added as a plugin). I got comments from my male cousin on my choice of skirt to embue with magical powers (I could've picked pants for my male breton, but my robe covers them and the skirt is all I had handy at the time). It doesn't bother me. I didn't even notice anything, until he said it.

With the examples here I'm trying to put the point forward that player perception determines for a part the experience playing a game, as well as what developers put in. Leaving things out of a game is a developer choice, but that choice is motivated more by an inability to reasonably include, than by a specific intent to exclude. To infer otherwise is to needlessly bring PC (the other PC) into the discussion.

When a game feature isn't a major factor in the game, then the need to cater for all variations diminishes. How developers implement a feature is their discretion. Back in the days, developers made certain assumptions about their market and had limitations on what the hardware could achieve. Today, the market has evolved, assumptions made are more complex, hardware limitations have dissolved and we're seeing the implementation of game features which make a game compelling to the playing audience.

Re:Morrowind

[johnwroach]

You mean he didn't mean all those sweet nothings he whispered in my ear???

Damn you Uncle Crassius, damn you...

Re:Morrowind

[prala]

I actually brought this up in an earier post I made today - specifically citing Morrowind as the only example of an RPG I've played where I've been "flirted" with by in-game characters. (This is totally not withstanding the almost-creepy module my SO made with a characters named after me in her underpants saying ridiculous things). In NWN, I was pretty shocked that male PCs get asked out and flirted with, but the female PCs I played with (in the original version) were almost "gender neutral."

Re:Baldur's Gate - Good Mods!

[General Ishmoo]

Not in the stock game, I don't believe.

However, there are a few excellent mods for Baldur's Gate II that allow homosexual relationships. The first is Chloe: http://forums.fwstudios.net/index.php?showforum=11 , a female character who can develop a lesbian relationship either with the protagonist or another female character. The second is Solaufein, who is somewhat less picky (will romance anybody, either gender): http://www.weidu.org/main.html. I have more experience with Chloe than with Sola, since you can get her much earlier in the BG2 storyline, but both seem to be very well done mods, on the level of the Bioware NPCs.

I haven't checked out single-player mods for NWN yet, but I thought someone had ported Sola, and if not I'll bet there's an equivalent to either of these for NWN.

Well, if you're going to play language police...

[Dr. Bent]

Gamers are some of the most homophobic people out there. Using "gay" to mean "stupid" or "cheap" is clear homophobia

Ignorance, maybe. Insensitivity, sure. But homophobia? Most people who use that word use it without thinking about it's meaning in relation to the current context. But if they were homophobic, they would be thinking about it's meaning, and purposely using it with the intention of intimidating gay people.

By branding ignorant or insensitive behavior as homophobic, you're guilty of making the same generalizations that truly homophobic make.

It's a choice?

[Anonymous Coward]

"the player is asked to rescue, and given the option to marry, an openly gay character"

I thought it wasn't a choice, I thought it was something you're born with!

tongue in cheek (face cheek)

you see that in Japanese stuff a lot

[newsdee]

For some reason "ambiguous" characters are very popular in Japanese games and anime. It's usually unclear whether they are gay or not, although they clearly are by western standards.

Take for example Benimaru from SNK/Playmore King of Fighter's series, or Benten from Cyber City OEDO 808 (guy paints his nails and wears lipstick).

Well, it depends on your logic

[M3wThr33]

The way I see it is that there's multiple Yoshis. There's also multiple Birdos. By that stretch, just that particular Birdo was a cross-dresser (NOT GAY) meaning that later female birdos were not necessarily gay.

There's a difference

[M3wThr33]

Be careful in what you assume.
There's flaming people in games like Tingle, Luigi and Bridget and then there's homosexuals like Zangief, Rain or Hana.

Re:There's a difference

[wheresdrew]

There's flaming people in games like Tingle, Luigi and Bridget and then there's homosexuals like Zangief,

You misspelled "Sephiroth."

Re:Yea! I got a troll mod

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFLMAO

ok..so..

[Anonymous Coward]

so, since we will have gay characters in-game, can I have a sexy donkey in my game? I'm attracted to the way they whip that fluffy, elongated tail around when flies are near..its almost like an invitation to visit their forbidden areas.

why is homosexuality being 'rammed' down everyones throat over the past few years?

Re:ok..so..

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if you want donkeys, try playing Dungeon Siege. One of the characters you can purchase is a pack mule. They can carry loads of goods. This comes in handy for large areas like Wesrin Cross. The only downside is they barely fight back, so you'll have to keep them at a distance whilst in battle. The expansion pack Legends of Aranna has a better pack animal, a rhino/reptile looking character, that can fight back.

Re:ok..so..

[theghost]

so, since we will have gay characters in-game, can I have a sexy donkey in my game?

Way to throw that red herring in there. Consensual relationships between consenting adults of the same species are in a very different category than bestiality. If you can't see that then you are blind.

why is homosexuality being 'rammed' down everyones throat over the past few years?

Why did those uppity black people ram their race down everyone's throats in the 60's?

Why are some members of our secular (separation of church and state?) society being denied their rights based on moral definitions that are purely religious?

Re:ok..so..

[flowbee64]

If you want to argue that separation of church and state bullshit here, then you need to argue that marriage should be removed from state, as it is based on religious ideals. The bible says defines marriage for a man and a woman. It also lays down homosexuality as against God(Leviticus 25:13). In today's society, different religions see things differently. Some churches allow homosexual marriage. Most don't. But most people can clearly agree that marriage is at least originally a religious concept, and should be removed complete from our government.

Bring on the arguments bitches. I am not afraid.

Re:ok..so..

[theghost]

I'd be happy to concede that marriage was originally a religious sacrament, but no such religious connotation is implied in modern, civil, male-female marriage and none would be implied in same-sex marriages. If marriage still had a necessary religious component in our country then judges and justices of the peace wouldn't perform it in courthouses and atheists wouldn't be able to get married. Marriage as it applies to our government is a purely civil union, but not all civil unions afford the same rights as marriage.

If you think it would be more palatable to the American public to replace all marriages with civil unions and allow same-sex couples to enter into those same types of civil unions, i'd be all for it. In this case, i think it's easier and more practical to say that same-sex couples can be legally married than it is to say that all marriages are now merely civil unions in the eyes of the law.

P.S.
The version of the bible i checked (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html), Lev 25:13 says, "In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession." Not quite sure how that applies.

Perhaps you were looking for:
Lev 18:22 is "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Or maybe: Lev 13:9-12 "These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."
Had any good shrimp or lobster lately? Hope not. That's an abomination too!

Don't forget about Lev 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Denying them the right to marry is not enough. If you accept the biblical authority, you have to kill gay men.
And people who curse their mom or dad. (Lev 20:9)
And adulterers. (Lev 20:10)
And people who sleep with their mothers/sons or stepmothers/stepsons. (Lev 20:11)
And people who sleep with their fathers-in-law/daughters-in-law. (Lev 20:12)
And men who do both a woman and her mom, as well as the mother/daughter. They get a special fiery death prescribed! (Lev 20:14)
Also note that no out is given for rape, so even if a man rapes a mother/daughter pair, too bad - all three must die.

Lev 20:15-16 says that if men or women sleep with animals you have to kill them and the animals! Interesting to note that this is singled out for women as well as men - most of the others aren't. Does that mean that lesbians are ok? I guess father-daughter incest is covered by the mother/daughter prohibition, but it apparently ok to sleep with your stepdaughters. Unless that's covered by adultery, but given the rest of the special shout-outs, i doubt it.

And don't forget wizards and men and women with "familiar spirits" - burn them! No wait - don't burn them! They have to be stoned to death! (Lev 20:27)

"Christians" (What did Jesus say about this particular topic anyway?) love to pick and choose when it comes to Leviticus, but that's irrelevant because this nation does not recognize biblical authority.

We've got our own laws and some of the most important ones say you can't force your religion on anyone else or deny equal rights to all.

You can't even make a decent citation, much less an entire argument. I think that officially makes you the bitch.

Re:ok..so..

[flowbee64]

You're absolutely right. I feel stupid for citing the wrong verse.

Also, I do believe we should replace marriage with civil unions. I have no problem whatsoever with a gay couple being together in some form or fashion in the eyes of the government. I just believe that if it's called a marriage, that there is at least an implication that the union is in the eyes of God. That is something I can't agree with.

Finally, I must say that you are the bitch. You see, you wasted a considerable amount of time out of your no doubt busy schedule to flame a post that had a score of 1. Everyone else chose to ignore the moron with the bad grammar and incorrect sitings from the bible. You however, in your infinite wisdom, chose to attack with great vengence and furious bible siting. You are the king of your castle. You are the master of your domain. You shine brightly as the great Cock of Gibraltar.

Re:ok..so..

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are some members of our secular (separation of church and state?) society being denied their rights based on moral definitions that are purely religious?

And what "rights" are sodomites denied exactly?

Go on, prove you are a retard and say, "marriage" ...

Re:ok..so..

[theghost]

I just believe that if it's called a marriage, that there is at least an implication that the union is in the eyes of God.

If two atheists are married by an atheist judge in a courthouse, where does God come in to play? Even if you think God is smiling down on those atheists' union, what does that have to do with our secular government?

You see, you wasted a considerable amount of time out of your no doubt busy schedule to flame a post that had a score of 1...

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that my goal was beating "the moron" in an argument.

My goal was pointing out the fallacy in a common anti-gay argument for anyone who happens to read this thread. The time investment was not particularly significant (20 seconds to find the text, 10 minutes to write the post) and the issue is important enough to justify it.

It wasn't a flame it was a lesson, but you can try to save face however you want.

Re:ok..so..

[flowbee64]

Yes, but my point was that as a post of score 1, I have no face to save. For shit's sake man. 10 minutes. You could have been doing something so much more meaningful with your time.

Re:ok..so..

[theghost]

The score of your post has nothing to do with the worth or validity of my statements. If scores matter at all, then it was worth replying because my the reply itself got modded up and is more likely to be seen by those who are looking for insights and opinions on this issue.

What could i have done with my 10 minutes that was more meaningful than standing up for civil rights?

Re:Yea! I got a troll mod

[trentfoley]

You know, I'll bet that the person who modded that as redundant was an emacs user. Smarter, wiser folks would have seen the humor. You know -- vi users. Next thing you know, this post will be modded as flaimbait. Stupid moderators... :)

But I must admit, the humor of the moderation is not lost on me.

A "special" pirate

[Dahan]

There's a blacksmith for purchasing arms and armor, a house where the party can rest, and a special pirate named Bertram who flirts with a male member of the party.

A "special" pirate? C'mon, just say it: butt pirate.

Fallout 2

[Anonymous Coward]

Allowed you to marry someone of the same sex years ago. Of course, you'd end up killing them because they were annoying and useless, no matter whether you married the man or the woman, but the thought was there...

Who cares?

[zero_offset]

With very, very few exceptions, in games, as in real life, I really don't care who or what you choose to sleep with. It seems highly irrelevant and forced to me.

As for "white male" avatars, most of the decent games I can think of that have been released within the past... oh, six or seven years... have a wide array of avatars to choose from -- both sexes, many complexions, many variations on facial features, and hell, half the time you don't even have to be HUMAN.

If this was a post instead of an Official Article, it would have been rated flamebait.

Who fucking cares?

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

the gay folk who hoard these boards and online games who want to push their agenda on the planet..that is who cares.

Why focus on a facet, not the whole?

[wowbagger]

Why is it that people insist upon focusing upon a single facet of their being rather than the entirety?

In the specific case of homosexuality, too many people focus upon the fact that they are gay to the exclusion of all else. Should the person be famous and be on a talkshow, that's the whole of their discussion - their homosexuality.

Now, consider somebody like Elton John. Queer as a three dollar bill, and has made no bones about it for years. Yet, that is only a small part of the man - yes, if he is on a talk show and the subject comes up he may discuss (briefly) his S.O., but then he moves on. He treats his relationship like any polite person should - it is his private life, and he trys to keep it such. I don't want to hear about Elton's bedroom, but then again, I really don't want to hear about Ahnold's bedroom, either.

Which brings me to the subject of "Gay characters in (games|movies|TV)" - in most such cases that is ALL the character is - gay. No other character development, just "Look at Fred. He's gay."

How about having a character who is, among other things, gay? Buffy the Vampire Slayer did pretty well with Willow - the fact she was gay was only a small facet of her character.

So why must the fact that some character in this video game is gay be the main facet of the game, or the character? Why not just have the fact come out (pun intended) during the normal course of the game, and make it just another part of the character?

Re:Why focus on a facet, not the whole?

[(trb001)]

Now, consider somebody like Elton John. Queer as a three dollar bill.

John Candy|Heavy|dump truck
Britney Spears|Lascivious|ten dollar whore
George Bush|Stupid|pile of dirt

My point is, this doesn't just happen to gay people. The public latches onto anything that stands out and then rides the person for it. Gay bashing is just the only thing that happens to be politically incorrect in the list above. Once again, gays need to get over themselves.

--trb

Re:Why focus on a facet, not the whole?

[Phronesis]

My point is, this doesn't just happen to gay people. The public latches onto anything that stands out and then rides the person for it.

But unlike Elton John and his homosexuality, George Bush does make being stupid his entire identity.

If he'd go easy on the stupidity and let it be just one facet of his personality, maybe people would stop beating up on him so much about it.

Re:Why focus on a facet, not the whole?

[argStyopa]

So why must the fact that some character in this video game is gay be the main facet of the game, or the character? Why not just have the fact come out (pun intended) during the normal course of the game, and make it just another part of the character?
Great points, and it's probably this excessive hammering of the point by the left so desperately intent on making a political statement regardless of consequences (y'know, I think I heard that Rosie O'Donnell and Ellen Degeneres *might* be gay...) and unwilling to condemn overtly destructive behavior for ANY reason (nightly orgies and anonymous sex rooms in gay bathhouses?) that has made this so true.

I think flagrant queens are ludicrous, and it makes me a homophobe. Or maybe I just think guys in dresses look stupid?

I think two guys practically going down on each other on a dance floor is disgusting (never mind that seeing a HETERO couple doing it ALSO would disgust me..>), I'm a homophobe.

Some people are so intent on finding validation in their enemy lists, that they have to invent some.

Not trying to rain on Rosie O's parade...

[Anonymous Coward]

...but now I'm going to have to purchase Temple of Elemental Evil, make a LG Paladin named 'Falwell the Brave' and I get the distinct feeling that a certain flaming NPC is going to 'tragically die during the rescue attempt'.

Why?

Because 'PC' in games should only ever be in reference to the platform. Long life the irreverent attitude of the Fallout series.

None of you could...

[Anonymous Coward]

... remember SimCopter? What about the gay parade at the end of the game?

Fear Effect

[JustJon]

Two years ago, Eidos not only promoted that the main characters of Fear Effect were lesbian, they even had the really racy ads denied publication by magazines, although, they did use some internationally.

fucking gay

[flowbee64]

Dood, this is all pretty fucking gay. Who wants to get own3d in CS?

Elite Force

[inkless1]

I got to play a lesbian. Or at least flirt with one. That was awesome.

Enuf of dat gay talk!

[jbarr]

Whar I come frum, we'd make 'em skweel like a pig! ...Gay game charakturs, I tell you what!

Re:Yea! I got a troll mod

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be offtopic, but this is the best usage of moderation points I've ever seen on /.

Ultima VII: The Black Gate and The Serpent Isle

[Hadean]

Both of these games had the ability to let the player have gay or lesbian encounters. Sure, it wasn't a major plot point of either game, but the fact that you could, if you wanted to (curious or otherwise) go to a bath house in Buccaneer's Den and have sex with the same sex was definitely pushing boundaries. I remember in Serpent Isle, even though you were female, Frigidazzi would still want to have sex with you. How old are those games now? 1992/1993.

If I had the mod points....

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely concur with you, my freind! I am so sick of having this crap shoved down my throat, from all the media talk about the "marriages" to the lessons we all need in "tolerance"!
Look People, We don't give a rat's ass what you like or don't like, don't expect us to join your fight or want to know anything about what you do! Go on about your lives and let us do our own thing, or easier said: Don't acknowledge my existence and I won't acknowledge yours and we'll both be much happier, trust me!!

Re:If I had the mod points....

[theghost]

Not giving a rat's ass is easy when you are not among the oppressed.

People who don't use computers for anything more than Word and AOL generally don't give a rat's ass about the DMCA, RIAA, MPAA, and SCO, but that doesn't make them right.

Anonymous Idiot

[fm6]

You didn't read my post (I was talking about children of gays, not gays themselves). And you obviously pulled your numbers out of your ass. So why am I talking to you?

Oh yeah, needed to tell you something. You're an idiot.

Let's not forget about FFVII

[Jorkapp]

I can remember 2 different scenes in FFVII.

First, obviously, was the market scene. You have to find a dress, wig, etc, to dress Could with.

Second part you had to earn. In the parts before you date a certain character, if you treated Barret particularily well, he would date you (i kid you not). Yes, I did manage to do it. Yes, I did laugh when Barret and Cloud kissed. Yes, I did vomit afterwards. It was funny yet disturbing watching two male 3D characters kiss.

USURPER (BBS DOOR GAME)

[Anonymous Coward]

If the sysop enabled the option, later versions of Usurper allowed gay relationships.

see??? telnet://bbs.supauser.com

gameplay ?

[Anonymous Coward]

enlighten me but i didn'y see if this gay thing will change the gameplay ( well since i dont play adults games, i'm not sure about that ) i'm just think thats only optional reward to our preferences. My opinion ? This is over rated.

Wrong.

[Jonathan Hamilton]

Right cause it's just Christians that are against
homosexuals.

The majority of the religons in the world, espically the top four don't agree with homosexuality and have always preached against them.
(Hindu, Muslim, Judism, Christanity.)

Those religons make up the majority of the population on this earth. So most of this earth is against homosexuality, not just christans.
It's all fine and cool if you want to bash christianity, but do it half way intelligently.

Mod Parent Up

[Canar]

Despite the fact that the parent post is a "you insensitive clod" post and is misspelled, it contains a very useful point.

Well then.

[Jonathan Hamilton]

What about insect?
That is the next step.
Two consenting adults of the same specifies.

Black people wanted equal treatment to the whites in the 60's.
Homosexuals have equal treatment already. They can already marry some one of the opposite sex. What they want is SPECIAL TREATMENT.

Comparing the homosexual quest for marriage to civilrights is horrible in logic and in sensitivy.

Maybe when the butt fucking fags get out and start getting bit by police dogs, killed with buckshot, hit by water cannons, and arrested then you can compare the two. Until then stfu.

Re:Well then.

[Anonymous Coward]

as a black man who grew up in the 60's, i find that remark ridiculous. HOW IS HOMOSEXUALITY ANYTHING LIKE THE RACE PROBLEMS I AND COUNTLESS OTHERS EXPERIENCED OUR ENTIRE LIVES?

homosexuality is a preference, being black is not. period. and the 'what if I was born gay' crap doesnt jive. its preference, plain and simple. and it is no different than the child molestor that prefers little boys.

Re:Well then.

[theghost]

What about insect?
That is the next step.
Two consenting adults of the same specifies.

Insects can't consent - they're not a sentient species. I don't even know what "specifies" they are.

If you meant incest, then that's different. The argument you're trying to make is a logical bait-and-switch. We're not arguing that issue, but if it does come up as a significant issue, we can deal with it on its own. I haven't seen any incest-rights marches lately, so i'm not inclined to think of this as a pressing concern.

Black people wanted equal treatment to the whites in the 60's.
Homosexuals have equal treatment already. They can already marry some one of the opposite sex. What they want is SPECIAL TREATMENT.

Not precisely. You can look at it as an increase in rights for everyone (straight people can marry other same-sex straight people too) or you can look at it more realistically, as if your head were not encased in your rectum. Straights have the right to have their romantic relationships sanctioned by law, same-sex couples don't. There are thousands of rights associated with marriage - property rights, inheritance, guardianship, adoption - that are currently denied to same-sex couples. That's unequal treatment.

Comparing the homosexual quest for marriage to civilrights is horrible in logic and in sensitivy.

Maybe when the butt fucking fags get out and start getting bit by police dogs, killed with buckshot, hit by water cannons, and arrested then you can compare the two. Until then stfu.

Bullshit. Look up the arguments that were used to defend anti-miscegenation laws. They are the same ones that are used against gay marriage.

And as to violence, maybe you never heard about a little phenomenon called gay-bashing? Not so different from lynching. Police have been raiding gay clubs, beating up, locking up, and generally persecuting homosexuals for years. I think that qualifies as "until then." Until you get past your uninformed bigotry, stfu.

Re:Well then.

[theghost]

Just because you say it's plain and simple doesn't make it so.

Bigotry is not the special province of any one nationality, race, religion, or sexual orientation. You can try to overcome it or you can be a part of the same root problem that you yourself have faced.

Re:Well then.

[Anonymous Coward]

so, throw out some vulgarity, and grammar-based insults when explaining away this article:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040323 /D81G3RL00 .html

Re:Well then.

[theghost]

Being black doesn't innoculate you from being a bigot.

They think homosexuality is a choice and therefore dismiss its comparability, but even if you ignore the indications that it's at least partly biological, discrimination against gays is still wrong. Being Christian is a choice, but discrimination against Christians would be wrong.

They are trying to use their religious definition of marriage to restrict the secular, civil definition of marriage. In this, they are no different from white Christians (and indeed, they use the dsame arguments) who are arguing against same-sex marriage.

They say: "To equate a lifestyle choice to racism demeans the work of the entire civil rights movement."

I say: To invoke the proud history of the civil rights movement to try to deny civil rights to any group of people demeans the work of the entire civil rights movement.

That's why I changed the words I use...

[Call Me Black Cloud]

No longer do I use "gay", "homo", and "fag" when playing CS. Now I use "ghey", "hoemoe", and "fagg". I try to be sensitive to all, including my butt-loving brothers.

Oppressed?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're oppressed only because you are too DAMN lazy to go out, get a job, and live your life! "Oppression" is a word that people use when they want to blame their self pity on others.
I know you're a pathetic troll, but I couldn't help myself.

Re:Well, if you're going to play language police..

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. When I call somebody a wanker, I'm not victimising everyone who masturbates.

Gender Bending in online games

[prala]

Definatly - actually, I'm an IDGA member and there's been several research papers devoted to "gender bending" in games. I play a girl (I am a girl) yet I know a lot of men who play girls as well.

Affirmative Action extended to video games?

[sakyamuni]

How long before Affirmative Action or somesuch thing is extended to wield control over virtual environments? Will publishers of games be required to allow you to play a gay elf in a wheel-chair, if you so desire?

Stranger laws have been passed...

Since we're talking about 'Avatar's already..

[Shadrym]

.. how about the Avatar from Ultima, 6 to be more exact. Whether you played as a male or female character, you could go with either the male or the female gypsy in the group south of Britania. Of course you had to have your group go wait off screen when you talked to them, or one of them would comment on how there are more important things to do.

How about Mud for Gothic 1?

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember Gothic - there was annoying character called "Mud", he was most definitely gay, with all sorts of innuendos, it was quite funny actually.

The barber in Kingdom O' Magic

[motown]

Barber: I simply have to get my hands on that.

Thidney: You do mean my hair?

Suikoden

[metroid composite]

Gay couples have often been hinted at in games, if not explicitly stated. While no characters in Suikoden are officially gay, it's obvious Konami was playing into the Yaoi fanfiction. Indeed, Google tells us this

Searched the web for suikoden yaoi. Results 1 - 10 of about 3,070. Search took 0.17 seconds.

Plenty of other Japanese games do this as well. Luigi and Peasley were a very obvious couple in Mario&Luigi:SSS (they flirted with each other more than Peach and Mario) just...the game ended before they got past first base (being a Nintendo game and all).

GOOD JOB MODERATORS!

[Anonymous Coward]

Disenting opinions expressing wrong thinking must be destroyed. If wrong-thinking catches on, because people are naturally ignorant and can't be trusted to think for themselves, this whole place could go up like a tinderbox! It's vigilance like yours that preserves our singular clarity of purpose, and cherished mediocrity.

PS- I happened upon a Rugby match once, I thought I walked in at the start of an orgy in an Old Navy.

A little etymology

[atrader42]

Do you realize that "faggot" used to refer to a bundle of sticks?

This was indeed true, however, it has also had a negative connotation for quite some time. Those intended for burning at the stake were frequently made to carry their own faggot. Those who repented at the last moment were forced to wear the insignia of one for the rest of their lives. A "faggot" become one who resisted the church. It has not been a purely harmless term for quite some time.

Thinking way too much about identifying

[chaoaretasty]

One problem I really noticed in the article was that it tried to say gay people are put off of games because they can't identify with the charecters. Maybe it's just me but I can identify pretty well with straight charecters, they just happen to be attracted to the opposite sex, BIG DEAL! The only difference being gay makes is that you're attracted to the same gender, it doesn't make you unable to identify with straight people that are in all other ways the same as you. It's like saying I can't identify with a charecter that doesn't like curry. And even if I don't identify with a charecter it's not the end of the world, if the game play is good I get engrosed by that, if the plot is well written I'm engrossed in that, even if I can't identify with the main charecter I can still enjoy the plot. If you did a proper survey you'd find the percentage of gay people that play games similar to straight people that play games.

It takes a queer to raise a child

[tepples]

I am working on a couple of assumptions here, so the whole thing falls apart if they are incorrect [...] 2. [Heterosexual attraction] occurs to promote procreation of the species.

Not always. Some claim that the gay gene is recessive but pops up more often when a village needs more "parents" to stay at home and help the straight moms care for the little ones than "breadwinners" to go hunt for food. Therefore, having gay adults in the village may give the children a better chance of survival.

(Read More...)

'Twas a sex change

[tepples]

I think he's been retconned into a she now though.

I saw it not as much a retcon as a success story for gender reassignment surgery in the Mushroom Kingdom.

EIAA accuses you of butt piracy

[tepples]

But isn't a "butt pirate" a person who infringes the copyright in a work of soft pornography?

Brought to you by the EIAA - Erotica Industry Association of America.

Let's not forget ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not forget that a large number of people find the topic offensive and / or immoral, but are too polite or offended to comment on the issue.

Many people, especially older ones, are willing to accept individuals regardless of their problems, but do not mistake acceptance of the person for acceptance of problems. You can like the drug user but not the drug use, the coprafile but not coprafilia, the homofile but not homofilia, the alchololic but not alcoholism, the pedofile but not pedofilia, and so on. Most major religions make a distinction, but not all cultures do.

I realize that there is a very large lobbying campaign this year, and that television and film has been under influence by groups for years, but pushing discussion advocating sexual dysfunctions abuses the goodwill of otherwise tolerant people. It's not humorous and there are more applicable forums for the discussion of these illnesses than Slashdot.

Re:Let's not forget ...

[metamatic]

Q: What's the difference between a Christian and a schizophrenic?

A: One of them is a mentally unbalanced person who thinks he hears invisible beings talking to him... and the other one is taking prescription drugs.

In other words, illness is in the eye of the beholder.

Reverse Gender Bias - Deus Ex: Invisible War

[alexpage]

I recently played through DE:IW twice - once on medium difficulty as a female character, and once on hard as a male, making some other decisions about which factions I supported.

Without wanting to give too much away, playing as a female is actually a disadvantage - there aren't any situations that I came across where I could get any benefit from being a female, but as a male one fairly major mission early in the game is made easier by being able to chat a couple of guys back and get yourself promised a gay threesome. Kudos to the developers for bucking the trend a little!

Take the 'fluffer' job at the...

[Anonymous Coward]

...adult film studio in Reno? You can take that job as male or female...

Addendum

[theghost]

"Rep. John Lewis, D-Georgia, an opponent of the amendment and a black lawmaker, invoked the civil rights struggles of the 1960s in which he took part. "I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on same sex marriage," he said."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/congre ss .gay.marriage.ap/index.html

I'm a gay male gamer

[Anonymous Coward]

I've played games since I was given a Fairchild in 1979.

It would be nice to have more gay and bi characters in games. There are lots of us in the real world. Lots.

Bisexuals especially tend to go unnoticed.